Limited combat capability

89
The expediency of the use of "Mistral" in our Navy leaves many questions

The problem of equipping the Russian Navy with universal landing ships (UDC) of the Mistral type continues to worry the public. And this despite the fact that the decision to have such ships as part of our fleet has already been taken.

According to the abilities and labor

“Ship for all occasions” - this is the title of the article by supporter of the inclusion of the UDC in the structure of our Navy Mikhail Barabanov, published in the issue number 24 of the newspaper “VPK”. But is Mistral universal?

So, let's call the tasks that he is able to solve.

1. To deliver troops to the landing area both directly on the coast and in a vertical way, that is, by helicopters deep into the enemy’s defenses.

2. To support the landing on the coast during the battle for disembarkation and in subsequent actions by the forces of the onboard air group.

3. Provide management of operational groups of fleet forces in remote areas of the seas and oceans, as well as landing forces and troops.

4. Serve as a floating hospital.

5. To strike at the surface ships and ground objects of the enemy by the forces of the onboard air group.

6. Search and destroy using enemy antisubmarine submarine antisubmarine helicopters.

7. Participate in peacekeeping operations, carry out humanitarian missions.

The list is impressive. However, it is worthwhile to take a closer look, as far as possible participation in all these actions is exactly the Russian UDC “Mistral”. After all, the authors of articles emphasizing the universality of the UDC, rely mainly on the experience of the United States.

Limited combat capabilityThe ability to solve the first two tasks is beyond doubt - these are the ships intended for this. However, their successful actions here are possible only with reliable suppression of the enemy’s air defense system to the entire intended depth of the UDC air group. The Russian Mistrals will be exclusively equipped with Ka-52 and Ka-29 helicopters (Ka-27 is an anti-submarine helicopter, will not take part in the assault landing). Even if the enemy in the area of ​​the flight of these helicopters will remain isolated complexes of short-range air defense and small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery (MZA), the losses will be very noticeable. This is evidenced by the experience of military conflict in the south-east of Ukraine. The practice of using helicopters with UDC "Mistral" in the Libyan operation in relation to the landing of the assault (where he would be counteracted by a previously prepared defense system) is irrelevant. In Libya, the aggressor had the opportunity to choose the place and time of the strike in such a way as to exclude ground-based anti-aircraft fire weapons (AIA) from entering the affected area, maneuvering over a very wide area. Without a prior reliable suppression of the enemy’s air defense system, the UDC cannot do anything. Helicopters, both Russian and other countries, including the most advanced, are unable to solve this problem fully.

I must admit that in the landing operations of the Mistral UDC, they are limitedly combat-ready - without the massive support of other forces of the fleet and the Air Force, they will not be able to do anything. Given the lack of a sufficient number of aircraft carriers in the Russian Navy, Mistral will be able to provide landing only within the reach of the coast aviation, primarily bomber and fighter, at a distance of no more than 500-600 kilometers from airfields. And this means that the UDC as part of the Russian Navy can operate only within the near sea zone. Then why are they needed? After all, the tasks of landing in these areas can be successfully solved by the landing ships that are part of the Navy. And what landings can our fleet land in the near sea zone? Only in the interests of supporting the actions of the coastal flank of the army, that is, the maximum in the operational depth of the enemy’s defense — no more than 100–150 kilometers from the front line, where coast-based helicopters will successfully operate.

Narrow manager

The available areas of the premises, the developed electronic armament give reason to rely on the use of "Mistral" as a control ship. However, here the expediency of their use in the Russian Navy raises questions. First of all, to fully perform these functions as part of the groups of the Russian Navy, the ship should be equipped with Russian control and communications facilities. Otherwise, it is impossible to provide full-fledged interfacing with similar systems of other ships of the grouping and interacting aviation. That is, Russian controls and communications should be installed on it. Then the question arises: why buy a UDC for huge money without a control system?

In addition, the control ship must be able to operate as part of the ship connections. First of all, its speed, both squadron and limit, should correspond to that of other ships of the warrant or operational connection. Almost all Russian warships - from heavy aircraft carrier and missile cruiser to the corvette - have a maximum speed of at least 29 nodes. In this case, the squadron move can be assigned in the range from 18 to 25 nodes, depending on the operational situation. For this reason, both in the Soviet and American fleets, command and control ships were created on the basis of combat ships that had a corresponding speed. In particular, in the USSR Navy there were two cruisers of the 68 project, which were command and control ships in the Pacific and Black Sea fleets. The ultimate move of the Mistral is only 20 nodes, and the squadron, which they can withstand, is significantly smaller. That is, it is incapable of controlling the operational strike forces of the fleet forces. The only thing for which it can be successfully used in this respect is to control the landing forces during amphibious operations. Very narrow applicability.

UDC "Mistral" to strike at surface ships are very limited. So much so that you probably shouldn’t even talk about using it in this capacity.

The range of ground objects against which the air group of the Russian Mistral can be applied is also small. These are targets, the defeat of which is possible with a small warhead of an anti-tank missile or NURS, and not protected by air defense weapons. As in the case of the use of French Mistral helicopters in Libya. At the same time, the ship must be within 50 – 70 kilometers from the enemy’s coast or even closer, which is also possible only if absolute supremacy of the sea is established. Such conditions can only be created when conducting combat operations against an adversary that has virtually no naval forces and an air defense system. That is, in the colonial wars that Russia is not yet supposed to wage. Thus, Mistral is not suitable for such tasks.

In the dry residue

There remains the possibility of using in wartime as an anti-submarine helicopter carrier. In this capacity, he could contribute to the solution of the two most important tasks of our fleet - the destruction of enemy submarines in the areas of the near-sea zone and ensuring the combat stability of our strategic missile submarines from the attacks of the anti-submarine forces of the enemy. It could become the core of the carrier-based search and strike group. However, there arises the problem of ensuring its combat stability. In this capacity, he will become the object of attack by anti-ship missiles (RCC) from a submarine, which in a salvo can be from two (for example, "Harpun" from torpedo tubes of the "Los Angeles" type boat) to eight or more units (when firing "Tomahawk" from the woo of the same boat) Own air defense systems of the Russian “Mistral” have a destructive potential for RCC significantly less than one. And this means that even a two-launch volley with a probability of more than 60 – 70 percent will lead to its defeat by at least one missile. Specialists shipbuilders have repeatedly pointed out the design flaws of this ship, which are determined by the fact that the UDC was designed according to commercial standards with minimum requirements for the combat component. Accordingly, its structural resistance to combat damage is small. How important it is for combat aircraft carriers, World War II showed well, when hitting two to four bombs led to the death of full-fledged aircraft carriers with insufficiently perfect structural protection. It can be assumed that the hit of one or two modern anti-ship missiles is guaranteed to lead to the destruction or destruction of the Mistral.

Thus, only peacetime tasks remain - the participation in peacekeeping operations, the performance of various humanitarian missions, in particular, such as the evacuation of civilians from military conflict zones.

Plus Russian adjustments

It is possible to justify the presence of these ships in the Russian Navy only as light aircraft carriers - carriers of vertical (shortened) take-off and landing aircraft (VTOL). There is already quite a rich experience of using UDC in this capacity in the USA. So, on the UDC type "Tarava" and "Wasp" can be based VTOL AV-8V "Harrier II". From the deck of these ships, they were used in military conflicts, in particular in aggression against Yugoslavia in the 1999 year and against Iraq in the 2003. There were these planes and on board the UDC of the “Wasp” type, which took part in the hostilities against Libya in the 2011.

The capacity of the Mistral UDC hangars, designed for 30 helicopters, will allow for a rough estimate to place at least eight VTOLs together with three or four XR-Ka-31 helicopters. For basing on UDC "Mistral", the Yak-141 aircraft, created as early as 1989, and adapted for use on board the first four Soviet heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers of the 1143 project, could be used. In 90-ies, this project was curtailed at the stage of acceptance of the aircraft for service. However, the relevance is not lost. Just as today the Russian Air Force adopted the Su-34, which fully meets modern requirements, although it has passed all tests in the USSR. According to its tactical and technical data achieved in Soviet times, the Yak-141 is fully consistent with the tasks that can be assigned to it in modern conditions. Possessing a supersonic speed, it has quite a decent range (from 400 to 700 kilometers, depending on the take-off and flight modes to the target and back). Powerful and multifunctional electronic weapons allows him to use a wide range of weapons, including high-precision weapon, including medium-range P-27 air combat missiles of various modifications and short-range P-73, X-29 and X-25 air-to-air missiles, X-35 anti-ship missiles and X-31 anti-radar missiles, as well as corrected aerial bombs

Having six take-off positions on the deck, the Mistral UDC, acting as a light air defense aircraft carrier, will be able to bring into battle one or two links of such fighters at a distance of up to 200 – 250 kilometers from the ship during independent actions and up to 400 kilometers - in cooperation with coastal-based DRLO planes. This will allow the Mistral UDC air group to solve the tasks of covering small groups of surface ships in operational-critical areas from strikes by small enemy aviation groups (to 6 – 8 machines) and to ensure the combat stability of the submarines from the strikes of the enemy’s main patrol aviation. Both of these tasks are crucial to maintaining a favorable operational regime.

UDC “Mistral” will also be effective in this quality when solving problems of striking surface targets. Striking four to six aircraft using 4 – 12 X-35 missiles will destroy or disable one or three ships or boats from a small ship group (search and attack anti-submarine or attack).

However, the use of the UDC "Mistral" in the Russian fleet is hampered by the lack of VTOLTs ready for use. The engineering groups that created the Yak-141 are crushed. Part of the enterprises engaged in the production of the necessary components, reprofiled or destroyed for unprofitability. It is vital to recreate the national school of VTOL. And not so much for the UDC "Mistral", but for the Air Force, which may be able to increase the combat stability of the basing system.

Thus, in the Russian Navy UDC "Mistral" can be used only as ships of peacetime with very limited capabilities in the military. Neither of which their universality can not speak.
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  2. ilya_82
    +25
    31 July 2014 18: 23
    interesting information. my father works at the Ural engine plant, so he says that they built a backup diesel for borea and installed it on a submarine. and he took and ate. now they don’t know how to tell Putin about this - all the boreas are on his manual control. The filth of the situation is that in order to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ... now the manual is easy. but why? the plant since post-Soviet times was taken, taken, taken, then plundered so much that it was privatized for 1 million. bucks. and didn’t invest anything in production. there are workshops in which the machines exported from Germany still work; these are those that did not have time to cut into scrap metal. But even recently, they closed the laboratory stands for experimental diesel engines and components. how to design and upgrade new diesel engines ??? Here you are, brothers, scribe. And during the Second World War this plant built almost 100 diesel engines



    1. +25
      31 July 2014 18: 34
      Quote: ilya_82
      interesting information. my father works at the Ural engine plant, so he says that they built a backup diesel for borea and installed it on a submarine. and he took and ate. now they don’t know how to tell Putin about this - all the boreas are on his manual control. The filth of the situation is that in order to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ... now the manual is easy. but why? the plant since post-Soviet times was taken, taken, taken, then plundered so much that it was privatized for 1 million. bucks. and didn’t invest anything in production. there are workshops in which the machines exported from Germany still work; these are those that did not have time to cut into scrap metal. But even recently, they closed the laboratory stands for experimental diesel engines and components. how to design and upgrade new diesel engines ??? Here you are, brothers, scribe. And during the Second World War this plant built almost 100 diesel engines




      Yes everywhere in Russia like that. believe me. all the bosses are busy with thoughts of how to cover up their ass in case of something. and everyone who is lower, enthusiasts, patriots do.
      How all this got, such not serious economy in Russia. So Negro Chief says the Russian economy is weak, after the sanctions it will become even weaker. (here, of course, a banana in his throat), but in something he is right. something is wrong with us.
      1. oenaraevskija
        +10
        31 July 2014 21: 47
        We have "not so" - that the extreme is always a worker. And, you have to start with management (director and others like him, chief: engineer, designer, production manager, etc.) It's not for me to tell YOU. Well, and the training of the working class (turners, milling cutters, toolmakers, etc.) But where to get the working class, which earlier could plug an engineer by the belt. NO !!! THEM (the working class) must be educated, but not one year Where are they (candidates for the working class) to get ????
        1. igor.oldtiger
          0
          31 July 2014 23: 40
          only in Central Asia!
          1. SVT
            0
            2 August 2014 14: 44
            Sorry, but Germany ALREADY took cheap workers from Turkey ...... now they are thinking how to drive them out ....
        2. DMB-88
          0
          1 August 2014 02: 27
          Quote: oenaraevskija
          We have "not so" - that the extreme is always a worker. And, you have to start with management (director and others like him, chief: engineer, designer, production manager, etc.) It's not for me to tell YOU. Well, and the training of the working class (turners, milling cutters, toolmakers, etc.) But where to get the working class, which earlier could plug an engineer by the belt. NO !!! THEM (the working class) must be educated, but not one year Where are they (candidates for the working class) to get ????


          Since the proletariat is the grave digger of the bourgeoisie, its destruction was the main task of all Russian governments, which they successfully achieved ....
        3. +1
          1 August 2014 06: 32
          The problem is that engineers are not hired under various pretexts. example itself
        4. 0
          1 August 2014 15: 02
          Managers send no shoveling. After all, no one wants to work. Neither boys nor girls.
          I wildly apologize, but, would put them all in the vagina, and begin to remodel again.
    2. +7
      31 July 2014 18: 35
      Quote: ilya_82
      interesting information.


      This information is very sad !!!! The production of the means of production is the basis of the foundations, and for a quarter of a century we have the foundation of scrap metal and privatization.
      Bullshit, these Mistrals. As part of the AUG, we can live, and so is the lokhan and a wonderful high-altitude goal.
      1. +4
        31 July 2014 19: 58
        The most important destination of Mistral is the transportation of large and not so cargoes.
        Different goods.
        And not landing in battle.
        As for example, our DBK was oversaw in Syria. You can’t just stop a ship at sea.
        In size, Poplar will take on board? or S-300 a lot?
        Why not boast a new acquisition in Cuba or Argentina after construction?

        Another thing is why should the French sponsor, why themselves could not build a similar trough?
        1. +5
          31 July 2014 21: 11
          Speaking bluntly, Mistral is not a very good purchase. Now our admirals are thinking where better to attach it with less loss.
          1. igor.oldtiger
            +2
            31 July 2014 23: 41
            Can a floating hotel do!
            1. DMB-88
              0
              1 August 2014 02: 33
              Quote: igor.oldtiger
              Can a floating hotel do!


              it is necessary that Pied Piper gathered on this pelvis the government, the state fool, the adm.president together with Him, the governors of small and large measures, feathers and other stuff ... and let him wander the seas, the waves, like the ark, and to no one do not let go of the shore!
              1. +1
                1 August 2014 09: 05
                And who will rule the country at this time? Bulk with Pugacheva? Kindergarten ... Of the two evils, the lesser is always chosen.
          2. 0
            1 August 2014 09: 02
            It’s just that someone put it in their pocket from this deal, and probably it was Serdyukov and his comrades. It is simply hard to think of a more meaningless waste of money so necessary for the fleet. Hefty tall box, which is not something that you can’t hide in the sea, even in the fjord, practically without your own weapons and passive protection - why did the fleet generally need it? Yes, even in triplicate? Just cut money, nothing more.
            1. 0
              1 August 2014 09: 41
              Somewhere, the thought sounded somehow that the Mistrals needed GDP to equip PMCs. PMCs are initially involved in small local conflicts. Then, for the very small military turmoil of the Mistral, that’s the most (although it’s difficult to covertly act on them). But the second one, I am convinced that its main purpose is the transport of goods. A warship under the flag of the Russian Federation, whatever one may say, is one of the most reliable delivery routes.
        2. +3
          31 July 2014 21: 15
          Quote: Muadipus
          Another thing is why should the French sponsor, why themselves could not build a similar trough?
          They threw a bone to Sarkozy for supporting Russia in 2008, during the war with Georgia.
        3. El torro
          +8
          31 July 2014 22: 05
          Mistral essentially had 2-3 possible functions

          1. Improving relations with France and access to technology. As for technology, I’m not sure though, it seems like most of it was removed from the original variant - it is adapted for Russian equipment.

          2. Prepared for the then fashionable police army. Type of anti-piracy operations off the coast of Somalia

          3. They wanted to be like the United States — with their air fleet, and the first steps were made in this direction — well, it’s kind of status like a vessel, it’s a little useless, but beautiful, we’ll revive the presence of the Russian fleet in the World Ocean, if anything, we’ll send our helicopter carriers, etc. .

          There are no other thoughts on this subject, it would be more logical to build 4-5 frigates for the same money, the effect would be several times higher
          1. 0
            1 August 2014 09: 08
            It's like in the case: a peasant had to carry bricks to the dacha, and potatoes back. And he listened to his wife and bought "Logan". Like everyone buys - why we are worse ...
        4. 0
          31 July 2014 23: 54
          Quote: Muadipus
          Another thing is why should the French sponsor, why themselves could not build a similar trough?

          According to Rogozin, until 2013, we did not have the technology to build such large ships. Now it seems to be. But, I think, is disingenuous.
          And here he himself is interested in the strategic need for these ships. Surely somewhere on the network there is this infa, but I have not yet searched.
          1. 0
            1 August 2014 09: 15
            How was it not? Nuclear icebreakers were built - and they are in size - exactly the Mistral, only they will be more complicated. Cruisers like "Orlan" - 260 meters long or "Kuzya" - over 300 and 70 meters wide - nothing, they float. Even before the war, battleships of the "Soviet Union" type were built - 265 m and 50 thousand tons - they were unfinished due to the beginning of the war. the first finished building was blown up in Nikolaev in 41st. And the "sharks"? We can all build, and the French navy has never been particularly good - it was not the Germans or the British.
    3. +38
      31 July 2014 18: 54
      ..... to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ... now the manual is easy. but why? h ...... I will tell you a great secret to a colleague ...- there are special submarines for these purposes removable sheets, so that the problem is not worth a damn ... and diesel is not a reactor or a turbine to raise a panic ...................... Wiki - ...........Removable sheets
      sheets of the deck (bulkhead or solid hull of the submarine) of the ship, mounted on detachable joints (bolts, studs) and covering openings for loading oversized frequently changed mechanisms (equipment) of the ship. On the edge of the hole in the area of ​​installation of removable sheets, the deck has thickened (reinforced) sheets, reinforced by a set. Most often, removable sheets are placed in the area of ​​mechanisms replaced by the aggregate method ........... With all due respect to you!
      1. +22
        31 July 2014 19: 21
        I agree with you "colleague", but "interesting information" from the series "father works ... as he told me ..." is just "crap". I, at one time, through a removable sheet of the 4th compartment (641B pr.), The crankshaft of the main diesel engine (not like the "auxiliary") without any problems "threw out" (respectively, "back" - with the same "makar") Only the flooring of the battery pit had to be cut, for the possibility of "maneuvering" in the vertical plane. Cutting a solid body to replace the "auxiliary" is nonsense.
        1. Cadet787
          +3
          31 July 2014 21: 55
          I agree with you colleagues, but the fact that this is from a series that my father told me was the stuffing of the fifth column in order to at least somehow spoil Russia.
        2. 0
          1 August 2014 09: 18
          This is a category of people - for them "everything is bad with us." And "good" cannot be in principle.
      2. avt
        +10
        31 July 2014 20: 11
        Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
        . I will tell you a great secret to a colleague ...- on submarines for this purpose there are special removable sheets, so that the problem is not worth an eaten egg ... and a diesel engine is not a reactor or a turbine to raise panic.

        Quote: sub307
        the "colleague" is read with you, and the "interesting information" from the series "father works ... as he told me ..." is just "crap". I, at one time, through a removable sheet of the 4th compartment (641B pr.), The crankshaft of the main diesel engine (not that "auxiliary") without any problems "threw out" (

        Well ! All pan-thrilled buzz to a man was broken off bully with my memories .After all, it started so well wassat cut the hull on a new nuclear-powered ship. laughing
        1. AVV
          +1
          31 July 2014 21: 18
          Someone is trying to disguise, but it wasn’t here !!! And if on the topic, then Serdyukov did things, bought ships. And now they are racking their brains, but are they needed in this form or just the money thrown away ???
          1. +1
            1 August 2014 06: 33
            Quote: AVV
            Serdyukov did things, bought ships.

            Such things are not done alone. This is not some kind of crap to buy at a sale.
          2. +4
            1 August 2014 08: 12
            Quote: AVV
            Someone is trying to disguise, but it wasn’t here !!! And if on the topic, then Serdyukov did things, bought ships. And now they are racking their brains, but are they needed in this form or just the money thrown away ???

            And you, dear, are you also petty dirty tricksters about the money that was thrown in vain? Recently, "home flags" have tired of their opinions on the development of the Russian Navy, some shout that it is urgent to build cruisers and aircraft carriers, others, on the contrary, we do not need a fleet! Serdyukov, that he had every right to decide what to buy and what to build by ourselves? .. they bought the Mistral, and they stole money on order! And in my opinion, they saved a lot of money! Designing and building a lead ship of this class is much more expensive !!
      3. 0
        31 July 2014 20: 50
        Thanks for the competent koment - not everything was reassured at us so badly !!!
        1. igor.oldtiger
          +1
          31 July 2014 23: 43
          but it will be even worse!
      4. +6
        1 August 2014 07: 59
        FREGATENKAPITAN..Well, at least one moreman appeared among the local children and explained to local experts on the fleet that diesel on a nuclear submarine is an auxiliary mechanism !!! Thank you coverang! soldier
    4. +1
      31 July 2014 19: 00
      Quote: ilya_82
      . The filth of the situation is that in order to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ..

      The situation is certainly unpleasant, but questions arise: 1) The boat designers did not think that diesel is not eternal and needs repair? 2) Is it impossible to make repairs in the boat, does it have that, the hull fell apart? 3) Who needs such products (military!), If it breaks right away? Maybe it is better to send the remains of the plant to scrap metal (with captured machines) and build a new production?
      1. +1
        1 August 2014 00: 24
        Dear Alexander!
        The answer to the first question - we thought
        The answer to the second is provided.
        So, on this side, everything is not so deplorable.
        But Fregatokapitan, I'm sorry that I’m climbing with tips, but don’t trust Wiki ... On the submarines, the sheets are welded (and not bolted) Although on modern submarines, I think too.
    5. +4
      31 July 2014 19: 16
      This is by chance not a diesel engine in Yekaterinburg .... then nothing surprising, I haven’t seen such a mess for a long time !!!
      1. +2
        31 July 2014 19: 45
        Quote: jaguar
        such a mess like there for a long time not seen

        Diesel is for the submarine and not anyhow! Is there no military representative there? Or is it all binge?
      2. ilya_82
        +1
        31 July 2014 20: 15
        just talked with his father, the best minds came from UPI, the department of diesel engines. It turned out to disassemble the diesel, it turned out that the crankcase was intact (if it cracked, it would have to be cut), and so they were able to disassemble the diesel and restore it. From the factory, all the managers flew away (production managers, directors, shop managers, etc.), there were only masters
        1. Cadet787
          0
          31 July 2014 22: 09
          ilya_82. You still talk and it turns out that you get the information at the embassy of the pen-owls, would be ashamed to steam the bullshit to professional sailors, you sent us a goat.
          1. ilya_82
            0
            1 August 2014 10: 12
            otherwise I can’t name your nonsense. In my opinion, this looks like a hohlosrach - when any opinion different from the cheers-patriots is presented by foolish people as intrigues of horns and a dump of the State Department. What he learned, he told. Okay, especially for the sick: everything is just fine with us, industry is developing by leaps and bounds, corruption has been defeated, and agriculture has been raised.
        2. 0
          1 August 2014 00: 01
          Quote: ilya_82
          it turned out that the sump is intact (

          Not a specialist in the field of shipping engines, but if we are talking about the crankcase, then this turns out to be a two-stroke engine?
        3. +5
          1 August 2014 08: 27
          Quote: ilya_82
          just talked with his father, the best minds came from UPI, the department of diesel engines. It turned out to disassemble the diesel, it turned out that the crankcase was intact (if it cracked, it would have to be cut), and so they were able to disassemble the diesel and restore it. From the factory, all the managers flew away (production managers, directors, shop managers, etc.), there were only masters

          laughing Cool little factory !! Do you have a diesel on your knees? Because of one diesel engine, half of Russia flies to the plant wassat !!! Oh man, thank you very much !!! It's been a while since I laughed laughing good
          1. ilya_82
            0
            1 August 2014 10: 11
            UPI in Yekaterinburg, the staff prepares specially for this plant. So do - on the knee
            1. +3
              1 August 2014 13: 56
              Quote: ilya_82
              UPI in Yekaterinburg, the staff prepares specially for this plant. So do - on the knee

              what Mdaaa, hard case! Snatching a government order is an idiot’s dream and so liquidly wrap yourself up !!! !!! This talent is needed wassat
    6. +1
      31 July 2014 20: 08
      Quote: ilya_82
      interesting information. my father works at the Ural Motor Plant, so he tells

      interesting rumors you tell however ...

      Limited combat capability

      I generally agree with the author.
      However, as a rule, "an attempt to adapt a sawmill donated by the Americans for cutting rails, usually in Russia always ended in failure" ... :)
      This is me about the restoration for the UDC Yak-141 th ...
      The plane is no longer there, as are the design bureaus and production chains ...

      About UDC.
      It seems to me that the main purpose of their acquisition was to appease enemies and acquire Aegis, well, and a system for dynamically stabilizing a floating platform (mainly for underwater operations using bathyscaphes and unmanned aerial vehicles) ...
      1. +1
        31 July 2014 22: 25
        Quote: Rus2012
        It seems to me that the main purpose of their acquisition was to appease enemies and acquire Aegis, well, and a system for dynamically stabilizing a floating platform (mainly for underwater operations using bathyscaphes and unmanned aerial vehicles) ...

        Is it a little expensive? And will they deliver these systems? I remember that Aegis could be delivered when ordering 4's Mistral.

        But if you do not take this information into account, then again it seems that everything is done through w @ pu. First they bought a ship, which by the way cannot go in the ice, and then they began to adapt it according to domestic realities. Rave.
    7. 0
      2 August 2014 22: 21
      says that they built a backup diesel for borea installed on a submarine. and he took and ate. now they don’t know how to tell Putin about this - all the boreas are on his manual control. The filth of the situation is that in order to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ... now the manual is easy.
      This diesel engine will either have to be repaired on site, or cut and carried out in parts, and in its place to assemble something new, for example, a mini-reactor from a 1 MW space rover ...
  3. +7
    31 July 2014 18: 24
    there would be ships, and we always knew how to put weapons on them !! and it’s worth noting that it’s not so bad !!
  4. +4
    31 July 2014 18: 28
    Since they paid and bought, then you don’t have to express contradictions! We always have time to apply, they will not be superfluous! Just in case.
    1. Evgeniy1
      -3
      31 July 2014 18: 39
      We ONE TsUSIMA is not enough, for BIG money to buy floating TARGETS!
      1. avt
        +4
        31 July 2014 20: 18
        Quote: Eugene1
        We ONE TsUSIMA is not enough, for BIG money to buy floating TARGETS!

        Before carrying it, take an interest in the combat fate of the battleship Tsesarevich built in France and its Russian counterpart, Slava. Well, then let's talk about Tsushima and about the shortcomings of the series of battleships that participated in it, or not entirely competent application. However, you can read everything from a participant in those events - Kostenko "On the" Orel "in Tsushima.
        1. Evgeniy1
          0
          31 July 2014 21: 36
          The main factors of defeat (negative) TSUSHIMA in "2" words: morally and physically outdated equipment (misuse of existing ones ... maybe more ...), illiterate war strategy and battle tactics (the chief executive and admirals "thought" of the last war .. .), betrayal and stupidity ...
          1. avt
            0
            31 July 2014 22: 23
            Quote: Eugene1
            The main factors of defeat (negative) TSUSHIMA in "2" words: morally and physically outdated equipment (misuse of existing ones ... maybe more ...), illiterate war strategy and battle tactics (the chief executive and admirals "thought" of the last war .. .), betrayal and stupidity ...

            Once again - start with Kostenko, and there the thread will stretch and you will find out a lot of interesting things, especially when you see how the clash between the players of the Great Game in Asia and specifically Tibet influenced the outbreak of war with Japan.
          2. +2
            1 August 2014 00: 25
            Quote: Eugene1
            morally and physically obsolete equipment

            I do not agree! Are our battleships obsolete: Borodino, Oslyabya, Alexander, Suvorov, Orel? A cruiser! A monstrous defeat! Nevertheless, our fleet will and will be able to fulfill the tasks set by the command! I believe in it!
      2. +3
        1 August 2014 03: 16
        Well, let's already saw the Il-76 all (for the coffin with wings), and at the same time all the Airborne Forces, well, the "Kamaz" with "Ural" to the same place, because "limited combat capability"
      3. +1
        1 August 2014 06: 37
        Quote: Eugene1
        We ONE TsUSIMA is not enough, for BIG money to buy floating TARGETS!

        Then all that more boat we do not need? The target however.
    2. -2
      31 July 2014 19: 04
      You, my friend, are very optimistic!
      Everything that contracts were concluded with a stool, I would fuck.
      Because, as with him, only cunning ... e schemes worked for money laundering. All Russian was buried or sold.

      And the Mistals ..., in my opinion, we are being caught on this bullshit. The more conversations around them, the supposedly they are needed. Although there was information that their electronics were only for climate +15 and above Celsius. Well, why the hell do you need it?

      B ... t, someday will come "to the top" people competent, ready to defend their own?
      Tired of these zh.po.lyzy already.
      1. +3
        31 July 2014 22: 14
        "You, my friend, are very optimistic!
        Everything that contracts were concluded with a stool, I would fuck.
        Because, under him, only cunning ... e schemes worked to launder the dough. Everything Russian was buried or sold. "

        You are my friend, also at least sometimes turn on the brains!
        In fact, we want or don’t want, but these Mistrals have already been PAID by us, almost in full, and refusal to complete the transaction will result in penalties for failure to fulfill the terms of the contract. In the current circumstances, the circumstances of the French refusal to give us these Mistrals would be most beneficial for us, in this case, they are obliged to return the payment for the ships, well, plus penalties.
        Plus, if my memory serves me, according to the terms of the agreement, the French handed us all the technical documentation for the ships, so we have both old Soviet developments and, in principle, quite advanced developments of our "sworn western partners" from NATO.
        1. 0
          5 August 2014 19: 56
          The point is that the current government has made the country dependent on all sorts of "partners".
          The Mistrals were pushed through by Stouretkin's “very smart” entourage. At a time when there were not enough warships, nuclear submarines, did Stouretkin decide to increase the defense capability of landing ships?
          Yes, without the appropriate escort "Mistral" target!
          It is clearly not the Mistrals that will make the "weather" on the ocean theater!

          And there would be something to answer if the State Reserve and other state funds had not been driven into "partner" candy wrappers. And now there is something. All talks about sanctions are scary for those who keep babos in Europs. And we must all understand that Russia can only pull itself out of this hole by itself. In WWII, the USSR would have won without Lend-Lease, with more blood, I agree, but Stalin was no match for the present, he knew how to ask and put the interests of the USSR above everything else.

          For your information:
          ... if we compare the size of supplies of industrial goods by the Allies in the USSR to the size of industrial production at the socialist enterprises of the USSR for the same period, it turns out that the share of these supplies in relation to domestic production during the war economy will be only about 4%.


          To do this, all the funds that are unknown for what (maybe someone bought an indulgence from "partners"), from partners, must return to Russia and work, incl. and in the defense industry.
          Then we will not need Mistralka.
        2. 0
          5 August 2014 20: 16
          PS Two mistrals capable of transporting two battalions of marines - is this our "asymmetric" response?
      2. igor.oldtiger
        0
        31 July 2014 23: 47
        they do not come! ASSIGN THEM !!!
      3. +3
        1 August 2014 06: 39
        Quote: Skif83
        their electronics are only for climate +15 and above Celsius

        Only those who have nothing to do with electronics can say this!
  5. +10
    31 July 2014 18: 29
    It is necessary to persuade Obama to put pressure on the French so that they would refuse to transmit the Mistals to us.
    Everyone will benefit from this. And Obama will receive an Honorary Chekist badge. soldier
    1. korjik
      +1
      31 July 2014 22: 29
      Yes, we all will throw him in the box of cognac :)
      1. -1
        31 July 2014 23: 19
        Throw him on a box of cognac :)
        on a box of bananas ........ he brews beer himself, right in the White House, and his wife grows dill on the lawn ......... you can take the Negro out of Africa, but you won’t take Africa out of the Negro
  6. +3
    31 July 2014 18: 30
    If you wonder who owns the shipyards on which the Mistral is built, then the question is why it will not arise. I suggest google yourself. I give a hint-Russian oligarch. Ts-s-s.
    1. 0
      31 July 2014 19: 41
      Hyundai, in the end, they do not hide.
  7. +3
    31 July 2014 18: 30
    Rogozin said cleverly - why did we buy them? We did not have modular assembly technology, but right now we have it and smiled. The deal was completed and the French understand that if they don’t give the Mistrals, they won’t work, and the Russian shipyards themselves will begin to build on the transferred technologies.
    1. +8
      31 July 2014 19: 00
      This is all blah blah.
      We built on modular assembly. We did not learn anything new.
      The Baltic factory, which built the feed hulls of the Mistral, built and is building nuclear icebreakers.
      Do you think an icebreaker is easier to build than a barge for a helicopter ???
  8. +5
    31 July 2014 18: 33
    Mistral, Mistral is good because it has become an apple of discord. Psheks, labuses, sprats and not only almost burst
  9. 0
    31 July 2014 18: 40
    And this means that the UDC as part of the Russian Navy can operate only within the near sea zone. Then why are they needed?

    1.In Odessa and Georgia, in the Arctic (probably in the Far East) they are quite suitable. Ksat most likely, with the current trend with the sanctions, "Mistrals" will not.
    2. Having "Mistrals", those documentation on it, we will assess their prospects of applicability and modernization (the money is not so big by today's standards of losses), in fact, this is exactly how the "Victory" car was created in due time, the prototype of which was Ford-B
    1. +4
      31 July 2014 19: 42
      Quote: Deff
      Having "Mistral", those documentation on it, we will estimate

      Yes, everything has already been evaluated, this is the news of the Navy in the world.
      Especially if we confuse the Victory M20 and the Emka Gas-M1 (this is a prototype Ford-B for it), then
      Quote: Deff
      evaluate their applicability
      UDC is very competent. lol
    2. 0
      31 July 2014 21: 22
      Quote: Deff
      1.In Odessa and Georgia, in the Arctic (probably in the Far East) are quite suitable
      Therefore, dill because of the Mistral and squealing loudest.
  10. 0
    31 July 2014 18: 40
    We’ll make a museum for the kids on the edge. There has been a debate with Mistral for a long time, but if you ordered it, you need to take it. At a price two built are cheaper than paying a forfeit.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Wladimir71
      0
      1 August 2014 16: 47
      Allegarchs under the yacht! A floating casino, and at the same time there will be a chance to drown everyone as with a Titanic is cool.
  11. +3
    31 July 2014 18: 48
    Quote: ilya_82
    interesting information. my father works at the Ural engine plant, so he says that they built a backup diesel for borea and installed it on a submarine. and he took and ate. now they don’t know how to tell Putin about this - all the boreas are on his manual control. The filth of the situation is that in order to remove the diesel engine and stick another one, it is necessary to cut the case with all the ensuing at the maximum depth of immersion ... now the manual is easy. but why? the plant since post-Soviet times was taken, taken, taken, then plundered so much that it was privatized for 1 million. bucks. and didn’t invest anything in production. there are workshops in which the machines exported from Germany still work; these are those that did not have time to cut into scrap metal. But even recently, they closed the laboratory stands for experimental diesel engines and components. how to design and upgrade new diesel engines ??? Here you are, brothers, scribe. And during the Second World War this plant built almost 100 diesel engines

    If a machine exported from Germany is working, what's wrong with that? He issues his products, depreciation charges have long been received, most likely he has been written off a long time ago and brings a net profit. Not in the main technological chain, he is involved, but someone must carry out auxiliary work. Here's who to take an example from — what products need to be produced that has worked for centuries!
    1. 0
      1 August 2014 03: 08
      machine exported from Germany, what's wrong with that?


      One machine with SPU and competent hard worker replaces a small workshop. And breaks less often.
  12. 0
    31 July 2014 18: 54
    Quote: rapid1934
    It is necessary to persuade Obama to put pressure on the French so that they would refuse to transmit the Mistals to us.
    Everyone will benefit from this. And Obama will receive an Honorary Chekist badge. soldier

    It’s better to let them buy it back, if they are so worried. And everyone will be happy, and the Americans, and the French, and we!
  13. -2
    31 July 2014 19: 02
    everyone understands that the Ministry of Construction, a purely political purchase, the French shipbuilders were tied to our fleet for good money. And by the way, this is a lesson for you, there are no light helicopters, build and equip them with drones
  14. ufa1000
    +4
    31 July 2014 19: 06
    Load 50 nuclear bombs of 10 megatons in the Mistral and send as a gift to the United States. France will be against, but America will not be able to object
  15. -4
    31 July 2014 19: 06
    It is necessary to pay the United States so that they, in turn, would put pressure on France and block their supply to us. laughing In principle, let 1 - 2 ships be. Amers have the same ships. And in the future, of course, there can be no question of their further purchases.
    1. +3
      31 July 2014 22: 08
      Quote: Maks-80
      You have to pay the USA

      What a fast you pay USA.
      This is people's money, so that they can give their pin.dos.sam, all the more for a reason. Without them they will figure it out.
    2. 0
      1 August 2014 03: 11
      pay usa

      You don’t scare them like that. Well this is their nightmare that someone will bring them a LOT of candy wrappers with Jorge Washinton am
      They didn’t print them for that!
  16. Wladimir71
    -4
    31 July 2014 19: 07
    Present this Serdyukovsky havno to the Chinese, for them it’s the very thing ...., let Japan have some fun accounts with Japan and at the same time you can solve the issue with the Kuril Islands forever
    1. Wladimir71
      0
      1 August 2014 16: 35
      They put me down here, I feel sorry for the Japs !? And when they slaughtered two million Chinese, when they prepared one hundred tons of plague lice for mother, Russia would have put the Americans on their poor, the unfortunate heads of the bombs did not drop the bomb, it is still unknown how it would end. Cho fans of Sony, Toyota and kamatsu - so-so technique
  17. +1
    31 July 2014 19: 22
    What is it about the Yak-141 remembered, this project was closed long ago?
    1. Stypor23
      +1
      31 July 2014 19: 29
      Quote: saag
      What is it about the Yak-141 remembered, this project was closed long ago?

      A proud Yak flies in the sky, Yak on the deck huuuu_k! laughingThat’s it. They closed it 22 years ago.
      1. +1
        31 July 2014 23: 00
        This is about the 38th.
        1. Kassandra
          0
          10 August 2014 15: 00
          Harrier has no less accident rate than the Yak-38go
          F-104 and a number of aircraft of the usual scheme have much more ...
  18. xxx905
    +1
    31 July 2014 19: 27
    As far as I know (I read at the naval forums, I don’t remember where now) it is planned to arm the Mistral with Yakhont (Caliber) missiles in vertical launchers. So, according to the tactics of using this ship, it is close to TAVKR only instead of airplanes, helicopters. I do not know how much the landing potential will remain.
    1. korjik
      0
      31 July 2014 22: 33
      And instead of landing barges, mini submarines.
  19. -1
    31 July 2014 19: 36
    how they sanctioned them and paid us a penalty. It would be better if we could put money into the right business
  20. +7
    31 July 2014 19: 37
    Interesting of course. During the Patriotic War, any Lahanka holding on the water went to the detachment for landing. ANY. And here is such power ..... I think the landing will be planted and help fire support by helicopters.
    It’s just interesting that we have so many ships, that we are crazy about fat ??????? We don’t have them yet. Grandma is the sea, and while the cat wept. Let it be, does not place. Grandmas, i.e. you cannot throw an enemy with eureka, but here for these eureka there is real power.
  21. +2
    31 July 2014 19: 44
    And the Spanish "Juan Carlos" was better http://topwar.ru/19794-glavnyy-konkurent-mistralya.html
    1. 0
      1 August 2014 03: 14
      Juan Carlos was better

      but Sarkozy was more useful
  22. 0
    31 July 2014 19: 51
    In addition to all of the above disadvantages, there is a couple more - this is expensive maintenance and basic infrastructure tailored specifically for it. Misral, it is Misral, but now there are not many options, we must take it.
  23. +1
    31 July 2014 20: 01
    how they sanctioned them and paid us a penalty. It would be better if we could put money into the right business
  24. +3
    31 July 2014 20: 08
    Quote: koksalek
    there are workshops in which the machines exported from Germany still work, these are those that did not have time to cut into scrap metal

    I myself saw in the 80th, at UVZ in the forge shop (fur section) planing machines made in Germany, the end of the 30s. The Nazi emblems are polished. And the whole mechanism is reciprocating from the outside. Such monsters.
  25. -2
    31 July 2014 20: 33
    to sell Mistral to Serdyukov and Medvedev, let them ride
  26. +2
    31 July 2014 20: 47
    And yet the Mistrals are needed. Their place of application is the Far East, the Black Sea and the Baltic. Opponents in these regions within the scope of our aviation and the speed of the squadron are not needed because of the small distance to them. The main objectives in Japan. Turkey, Poland and other Baltic states will handle the aircraft and then the helicopters will be in place! However, I'm not special, maybe I don’t understand something!
  27. 0
    31 July 2014 20: 54
    Let them be helicopter carriers. And then there will be the best ships.
  28. 0
    31 July 2014 21: 35
    The point is to buy foreign ships, could it be possible to invest in the development of a high-speed Navy, because the Americans are not in vain afraid of ekranoplans, since all existing coastal line protection means for ekranoplanes are empty. And the ranges of those that were developed in the USSR are enough to attack any European coast.
  29. -1
    31 July 2014 21: 50
    I give my own comments

    June 25, 2014 18:14 | Mistrals will be equipped with Kamov helicopters

    The fact that the army is rearming and re-equipping is encouraging. But why do we need these coffins, with a limited range and capabilities (all the same helicopters). And the doctrine of Russia is defensive, are we going to fight with Somalia ...? If they will be based in the Black Sea, it’s still clear, but why in the Pacific? ..

    June 25, 2014 19:06 | Mistrals will be equipped with Kamov helicopters

    No one needs air shaking! The Mistral should also have military security (in case of going beyond the territorial waters), and this is the cost. At the same time, think about how such a cow is destroyed? Do you know the tactics? It is not effective for protection (coastal is better), for offensive operations only in relation to 3 countries that do not have developed air defense and the Navy. Where is the reason?

    According to the comments received minuses, but I won’t change my mind .., although not a sheep. Prove ..!
    1. korjik
      0
      31 July 2014 22: 45
      Only the Black Sea, Russia has a lot of friends in this region, Turks, Bulgarians, Romanians, and the rest from time to time trying to spit in the direction of Russia. There are airfields to cover these Serdyukov misunderstandings in Crimea. The average annual temperature is suitable.
    2. +2
      1 August 2014 03: 25
      Is that the case of a BDK of Soviet construction, yes? They will tear everyone !!!
  30. 0
    31 July 2014 21: 51
    Only modify Mistral to a light aircraft carrier! If you use the new MIGs, then I’m sure it is possible!
    1. +1
      31 July 2014 23: 19
      No impossible. Neither take off nor landing. Only "verticals". But the Yak-141 is not. And there is no Saratov aircraft plant either. Instead, there is a huge pit - a foundation pit for another shopping center. They finished it off in 2010. And a member of United Russia finished him off. Which is still alive and in a not dusty place.
      And I think it would be more expedient to arm the Mistrals exactly according to the principle used on destroyers with the Aegis system - container interchangeable launchers with missiles for various purposes, from air defense, to cruise missiles and missile defense interceptors. Then it will be the most powerful strike tool.
  31. 0
    31 July 2014 23: 19
    Quote: Bayonet
    Quote: jaguar
    such a mess like there for a long time not seen

    Diesel is for the submarine and not anyhow! Is there no military representative there? Or is it all binge?


    Serdyukov reduced military representatives, to save state funds. Now backing back, restoring the destroyed service.
  32. -1
    1 August 2014 00: 45
    The larger the device, the easier it is to insert a "bookmark" into it. Those. such a thing that, by an external signal, will reduce the functionality of this unit. So the purchase of these mistrals is a political and economic step. We are integrating, they say, we are still in Europe. From a military point of view, the use should be limited (if "contrary to" NATO, it will stall).
  33. 0
    1 August 2014 05: 28
    About VTOL.
    Firstly, these planes are still alive.
    Secondly: will the Mistral flight deck cover withstand the temperature of a gas stream? In Kiev, carrying a subsonic Yak-38, the coating is designed for 900 degrees, and in Gorshkov (supersonic Yak-41) - the coating holds 1200 degrees.
    And thirdly: there are no trained pilots - the last flight was in the early 90's.
    1. 0
      1 August 2014 07: 09
      Quote: alma
      Firstly, these planes are still alive.

      They never went into series! For testing, four copies were built. One copy was intended for static tests, the second - with the tail number "48" - to assess the forces and moments acting on the aircraft in various flight modes and the operation of the power plant. Two flight copies had side numbers "75" and "77". Under these numbers, they were tested at land airfields and at the ATKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union SG Gorshkov" located in the Northern Fleet. The aircraft with the side ╧ "77" was a pre-production copy. By the end of 1991, work at the Saratov aircraft plant for the preparation of serial production of the Yak-41M was stopped due to lack of funding.
    2. Kassandra
      0
      10 August 2014 16: 03
      pilots retrain on flight simulators in a month, then master the cars in a week or two
      the point is that during the collapse of the USSR (and after that) the destruction of everything that was related to the Yak-41 was of a primary nature, things were even steeper than cutting 4/5 of the Soviet Tu-160 fleet in Ukraine.
      Prior to this, the creation and release of this aircraft in a series was in every way inhibited. he was generally ready in 1977, he was not given permission for the first flight for 12 years (!).
      meaning - it cancels the dominance of American AUG at sea.
      What was not done in the USSR in order to compromise the "vertical", in the end they even allowed the Navy to have a half-aircraft carrier (Kuznetsov), but only one, without rotational replacement.
      the point is that Nimitz will not be able to compete even with an ordinary container ship converted for a light aircraft carrier with 12 or 20 such aircraft - because of the queue for catapults, it has a very low rate of release of its F-18s and their reception in aerofinishers, too. in addition - a huge area, and therefore vulnerable to cluster munition attacks, the deck.
  34. Iero
    0
    1 August 2014 07: 52
    For the Russian Navy, "Mistrals" are unnecessary (unless some useful technology is transferred with them). And for politics, they played a role. If you do it according to your mind, then the first must be taken away, and from the second - under a legal pretext, without violating the contract (for example, in response to sanctions), refuse.
  35. 0
    1 August 2014 07: 55
    Guys, I think Kostya Sivkov, (AUTHOR PERLA), blew a soap bubble, in honor of himself, (author -> author -> author, after all!), People comment smartly .. Tomorrow Sivkov will throw a topic about symbiosis aphids on the planet Ku ... Will you rush into the battle with comments? ALWAYS rush, maybe a kiss will fly!
    1. Tomsoer
      0
      1 August 2014 14: 52
      I think the bulk of readers have the ability to filter text ... So you just need to isolate the idea and discuss it, and not rush to, you named, "kisses" request
  36. Tomsoer
    +1
    1 August 2014 14: 50
    Opinion. The purchase of the Mistral is a usual "friendly" political step that was taken before the start of an open conflict, since a decent percentage of the military-industrial complex's components were imported. Where to shove him now? I think ours will come up with. what
  37. Wladimir71
    0
    1 August 2014 16: 42
    You need to get rid of this shit - impose sanctions on the EU, do not buy! Until the forehead is paralyzed with green stuff or the Crimea is not recognized. This is an expeditionary type of armament and it is stupid and expensive to attach it to defense. It’s better to drown right away.
  38. 0
    1 August 2014 16: 52
    Yak 130 can be from the mistral run, he will have two hundred meters. Mistral will have to attach a springboard and convert the yak into a patrol one: the surveillance radar is more powerful than the engines with UVT and used as a retranslator.
  39. 0
    3 August 2014 05: 36
    On ANY (!!!!) watercraft such as a boat, ship, boat or some sort of barge, there are, as Fregatenkapitan noted here, removable sheets. I had GD-Kolomna diesel engines on the ship, with an outboard of 37 tons each. They pulled out at a time! Of course, preparatory work takes a lot of time! But who set the cons - the question. The article is sensible. Not a ship but a rare rare one !!! His fall, and even in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk - he would not last long!

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