The well-known Italian political journalist Julietto Chiesa answers the questions "Tomorrow"
"TOMORROW". Mr. Chiesa, do Western Europeans understand the processes taking place outside Europe - for example, in Ukraine? Is there enough information to figure out?
Giulietto Chiesa. The Europeans have no reliable information about the Ukrainian crisis. Practically all channels, I judge through Italian channels, but everywhere in Europe, more or less everything is the same, they simply give lies. In their interpretation, everything is supposedly happening because Russia has occupied Ukraine. And Ukraine wants to be independent, to freely become a member of the European Union. Russia is hindering, therefore it is to blame, Putin is to blame, he is a dictator. Everything is in this spirit.
And how can you understand something, even if no one knows the composition of nationalities within Ukraine? I have an Internet TV channel, Pandora TV, on which I gave several comments a day, as I was the only alternative information source in Italy. And there I said that in Donbass, Russian people are defending themselves against the fascist regime created in Kiev. And several fellow journalists attacked me through the media: "Ah! Mr. Chiesa, a mercenary, admitted that Russia occupied Ukraine, because he said that the Russian people in Ukraine are defending themselves. And what are the Russians doing in Ukraine?" That is, even the journalists covering this topic do not know that about 10 million Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Russians. They, their ancestors have always lived there. There is a complete systematic distortion of reality. And when it is difficult to completely shut up, like about the tragedy in Odessa, they give information that is impossible to understand. "There was a collision. There was a fire. People died. We need to investigate."
It is unclear to whom, and who clash. How many victims? And this information has no alternative, so people do not know the true picture. I have the impression that even the leaders do not know. No, this is not just an impression.
Giulietto Chiesa. Yes, leaders. They read the same newspapers, watch the same TV and do not have the slightest idea of what is going on. Therefore, decisions are made at the level of ignorance.
Even progressive people who are honest and open to different opinions are not informed. I spoke with a group of politicians - three members of the Italian parliament and two senators. Listening to my presentation of the situation, they were amazed: "It can't be! It can't be!"
But I still argue with the facts. These people were not opposed to Russia, they have no bias. Just ignorance! This Deputies They vote, make decisions! I spoke with five. And the others? Depressing picture. Those who control the media, can do anything to the development went according to their script.
"TOMORROW". It turns out that the fourth power dictates how to behave in the first power?
Giulietto Chiesa. Yes, it dictates the first, second, to the authorities.
My Facebook resource is popular. More than 100 thousand people visit it. But this is not television. People go to Facebook, look for 2-3 minutes - not for a long time. This can be seen from the attendance of the materials. If I write comments in 3 or 10 lines, then within a couple of hours up to 60 thousand readers. But if an article that expresses a detailed point of view is analyzed, the number of readers is halved.
"TOMORROW". But the protests against the actions of Kiev in the east of Ukraine, were initiated by you, the Ukrainian embassy in Rome was a lot of people.
Giulietto Chiesa. It was about 350 people I gathered through Facebook, through the "Pandora TV." Paradoxically, there were several Russian TV channels, take this action, but not a single Italian.
However, the effect was large. I received dozens of invitations from various civil society organizations to come and explain what is happening in reality. But to respond to these invitations can not. It is an unequal struggle. All channels every day the same thing written show. And I'm alone.
"TOMORROW". To understand the danger of fascism in Ukraine, you need to better understand stories or in modern times?
Giulietto Chiesa. History and modernity are closely related. For many years, and I do know there is a preparation of Russophobia. And not only in Ukraine. This is not done in one day. This requires not only the domination of the media, but also in education, training, selection of teaching programs, and so dalee.Naprimer, our government did everything to convince if the winner in the Second World War was the United States. More instilled: Stalin and Hitler are equal, they are dictators, totalitarian society built. This campaign of lies and misinformation continues and gives fruit.
What is happening in Ukraine is the result of long-term youth training. The events were attended by tens of thousands of young people. Hence, it worked strongly and lastingly. This is the formation of a new generation. The same thing happened in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, which I wrote about in the book "The Latvian Candidate, or the Unknown Adventures of a Non-Citizen in Europe". Several chapters of the book are devoted to describing how leaders were prepared for these states. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the leaders of the three Baltic republics, Poland, and Bulgaria and Romania were trained in the United States. And not only prepared, but also chosen with the help of America. These were the children of the Nazis, raised in the American spirit, but remained Nazis. Take Mr. Yushchenko, whose wife Kateryna Chumachenko was the founder of the Ukrainian information center in Chicago. We are now in a phase when American "democracy" is literally reviving Nazism in Europe.
"TOMORROW". For what purpose?
Giulietto Chiesa. In order to break the resistance of the Europeans. Now is not the time to be too complimentary about Europeans, but nonetheless, Europe is not America. It is impossible to completely colonize Russia, and Europe cannot be colonized completely, because this is a different civilization. We have a very long history. They - Anglo-Saxons, Americans - have a very short history. They tried all the years after the Second World War to spiritually, organizationally and economically colonize Europe. Does not work. It doesn't work out to the end. Of course, they have moved forward, captured quite a large part of the minds. But the democratic experience, the experience of civil society in Europe does exist. You cannot erase this from life during one generation, you need three, four, five. And this time has not yet passed.
What do Americans want now? Continue your dominance endlessly. But since this is a difficult business in a relatively democratic environment, they simply use the worst European experience to weaken the defense of a democratic Europe. Nazism is a very suitable tool, it will mine, plant a bomb under European structures. And this is Nazism (we see this in the Baltic republics), built by the hands of the Americans. And now this is being done in Ukraine, in Poland. "Right Sector" is a Polish brainchild, was born in Poland, and then was exported to Ukraine. There was freedom in Ukraine! UNA-UNSO, Bandera! But "Right Sector" is Nazism in the literal sense.
"TOMORROW". And what is modern Nazism? What do the Americans want: racial superiority?
Giulietto Chiesa. No, for the Americans, it does not matter. This is important for those people in Europe who have been brought up in this spirit. But it triggered two overlapping trends: it is anti-communism and antirusizm, Russophobia. This can be seen in Ukraine: anti-communism and antirusizm, Russophobia operate simultaneously. I myself, as a communist, a correspondent in the days of the USSR in Moscow, is still getting a lot of abusive emails. They say you're a friend of Putin, because you're a Communist. Although Russia had not the Communists in power.
When I step on the television, I hear, even from colleagues, from the opponents: you are a Communist, are you from Moscow. They do not even know how to write such things, and say it with conviction and sincerity. They were convinced. It is intertwined with fantasy, myths. And it replicated.
"TOMORROW". So, this is their stagnation, stop the development. And freedom of the alleged lack of freedom of speech precisely.
Giulietto Chiesa. There is no longer any freedom of speech and information. There was a certain moment when free speech was a reality. After the advent of television, she disappeared. It was not immediately noticeable, but now it is visible. We have censorship in the literal sense of the word, which operates under the guise of freedom of speech.
I will quote the wonderful Marxist philosopher Guy Debord, his book "The Society of the Spectacle", which contains things prophetic. He predicted in the early 70s, when television was far from what it is today, it was the beginning of the information age: the Society of the Spectacle - the truth is part of the lie, and the lie is part of the truth. "
And freedom of speech in such conditions has only one equivalent - manipulation. Freedom of speech? Yes, it seems that you are free, but the lies and the truth are connected. And a person, if he is not a professional, cannot compare one with the other, separate one from the other. He perceives everything together. People are thus zombified.
This is characteristic of the mass consciousness in the West. It is a virtual society. And in this virtual society lives a billion people.
"TOMORROW". Drawing a parallel between the events in Spain in the thirties and the current war in the South-East. Will there come the volunteers progressively minded citizens of different countries?
Giulietto Chiesa. There is a dangerous situation, if it continues, it is difficult to predict what will happen next. Because NATO is rattling weapons and is ready to intervene. They can go for it. These are irresponsible people, complete fanatics. Mr. Obama is a small man, a fanatic. And he, by the way, doesn't really influence events. The secret services are at the head of everything. You should not expect reasonable decisions from them.
These people are dangerous and need to behave sensibly, we must exploit their weaknesses. But in any case, do not count on a good move on their part. If they were zdravomyslyaschi, they would not have created this crisis. They own hands all staged. It is not an accident, not a bug, it's a purposeful deliberate attack on Russia.
What they did not know the situation that has developed between the Eastern and Western Ukraine? Knew. The Ambassador of Ukraine did not know? He knew well. A Polish Prime Minister did not know? I Knew. They did everything systematically, consistently and consciously, everything was orderly.
I constantly ask myself and the rest of the question: why was this done in February 2014? Ukraine was already in their hands. They could have waited a year, new elections, Yanukovych would have been thrown out, they would have put Poroshenko, Porubiy - whoever they wanted, they would have put. They had power structures in their hands, all the levers: the Ministry of Defense, the secret services. So why now? Why such a rush?
Apparently they were in a great hurry. Apparently, the situation in America is absolutely turbulent, a crisis, especially a financial one. The financial crisis is an explosive ball that can erupt at any time. I am convinced that the situation is much more serious than it looks. The United States is in a very bad shape. They say they are growing, but this is not true. They grow at the expense of the production of artificial money, which is not backed by anything.
Debt Americans too large. The crisis of America and the West in general is growing. And Washington would like to carry out the operation, which simultaneously hit in Russia and Europe. If embroil Russia and Europe, that will be fully and finally into the American camp.
It will work - it will not work. I have an opinion that it will not work. But the Americans played all-in anyway. I think they will continue to play. Therefore, the situation is very, very serious. This is not a regional crisis, this is a crisis that was created artificially against Russia in order to hit Russia and, I would like to emphasize, to hit Putin personally. They think that if Putin is removed, they will have their hands free to operate inside Russia, using the "fifth column" and others.
It is necessary to watch whether the operation that Putin is conducting will succeed in order to show the Europeans that it is not in their interests to behave like this. Is there such a possibility? Yes, because if you look closely, it was not Europe that made such a decision. It was only part of Europe - Poland and the three Baltic states with the help of Germany. But with the help of Mrs. Merkel, because many people are unhappy with such actions. The entrepreneurs are unhappy. And it's the same in Italy and other countries. For example, no one consulted with Italy, Greece, Spain. This means that it was not Europe that decided. And some kind of cooperation within Europe: America plus part of Europe. Therefore, it makes sense to try to explain that not everything is going as it should. And it can bring results. I hope that it will be like that. But much depends on the behavior of American leaders.
"TOMORROW". Is the Russian so-called elite an ally of Putin and the state, or is it an opponent of Putin and the state, because it is connected with Wall Street and depends on them?
Giulietto Chiesa. Some of these people depend on the West, we have to keep money in banks. But this situation is twofold: there is capital, while it is in serious danger. If you choose the dollar as its single coin, you could be in a difficult position.
"TOMORROW". As in Cyprus.
Giulietto Chiesa. Exactly. And perhaps much worse. There are those who are aware of this.
All I see is the revival of the Russian spirit. It happens! Crimea - there was a wave, emotions, but this is a very deep factor. The wave moved to the South-East.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian Ukraine took it as normal. I'll remember that there were many Russian, who applauded this event. Independence! And look what a difference right now. For the first time since the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russian people felt their identity wherever they are.
After the coup, the wave went: Crimea, eastern and south-eastern Ukraine, then Russia as a whole.
I believe this is a twist. Unexpected for the Americans and, perhaps, unexpected for the oligarchic structure in Russia. Now they are in a completely different situation than, for example, at the end of 2013. And it is necessary to take into account the new unforeseen situation that has developed, to rebuild thinking. Russia's retreat is over. For the first time in the past 30 years, Russia is beginning to realize that it cannot retreat further, that it is Russia. And Putin understood this.
"TOMORROW". How do you explain this? After all, in recent years the media were in the hands of the liberals, they corrode the Russian spirit, zombie people, they say, Russian be ashamed, we blame the whole world for all the sins of mankind. And now there is a revival. Due to what happened?
Giulietto Chiesa. A sense of danger. This attack was from the very beginning against the Russians. Precisely against the Russians. This is probably even a mistake of these figures. After all, their first decision is to ban the Russian language. So clearly, openly announced! And people at such a moment feel in danger. And self-organize to protect themselves. This is the only new factor that can in fact strongly influence international relations.
Unfortunately, there is no voice of Russia in the West. This is the weak point: the point of view of Russia in the West does not exist, it is not represented.
"TOMORROW". Are there currently any international rules, which have not been violated? We see even double standards, and international outrage and absolute rightness strong.
Giulietto Chiesa. Yes, there was scrapping all political norms. We are in a phase of demolition. It is not yet consciously by many, but the situation is such that all the rules have been violated, the rules are broken.
And I understand the behavior of Putin and Lavrov, that they behave as if the rules still exist. This is the correct behavior. This is the only way to manage the situation, otherwise there will soon be a war. They are constantly provoked. Russia replies: to convene the UN Security Council, even if it is quite obvious that they will repeat the same things there. But steps of this kind are necessary in any case.
But the attack against Putin? Sanctions against all around him? This is unprecedented! Even indecent how attackers behave.
The fundamentals of security are all broken too. After what happens, European security does not exist. And if European security does not exist, then global security no longer exists.
Europe has not yet realized this. Because they think: we are good, we are not doing anything bad. But what's going on? Ukraine was captured by NATO, and soon Ukraine will join NATO. Without Donbass or with Donbass, but it will be. After that, security in Europe is over. Therefore, new understanding is needed. But even in Italy, no one is aware of the new situation. As if the previous one continues. It is necessary to create a new system of international relations.
"TOMORROW". But who will formulate? Americans cannot openly write: everything that we do is right. And everything that our opponents do is wrong. And it turns out that way. Who will write and adopt the rules if America is the only emperor? She will not consult with anyone.
Giulietto Chiesa. During Maidan Russia completely absent. And suddenly!
I was a pessimist and I remain. But the American empire is dying, this is my theory: they are in a position where it is impossible to return to the previous situation in the old alignment of forces. There are already giants that will not be dependent on the United States. China is China. And Russia is in a certain sense also Russia. She has not lost her identity.
China will never lose its identity at all. Became a capitalist country, but a powerful culture, powerful traditions, powerful language. This is a different continent, a different planet. Therefore, it is impossible to return to the past situation. Americans live with the illusion that they can dominate even under these conditions. But this is war. Of course, they are the most armed, and they know it. It seems that the upper classes of America believe that they can destroy everyone else. This is a crazy idea. This means the third world war.
This is the balance of the situation. Americans are losing real power in the world. They are no longer an empire. It is not in the future that they can lose power, and not the empire. But they have a lot of money, albeit artificial, to unleash a world war. How far their aspirations go to the end - I cannot say.
"TOMORROW". And they do not admit that this war could spill over to their continent?
Giulietto Chiesa. They do not think about it. Therein lies the greatest danger. It is intertwined with their opinion and belief that they have a mission of liberation. At that millions believe. Even Mr. Bush, US president, believed in it! He said the morning I was talking to God.
"TOMORROW". How much the world needs the war unleashed by America to understand what her true purpose, that the Americans will not stop in their mad actions?
Giulietto Chiesa. In a certain sense, the world has already received its sight. Not in Europe yet. Signs of the manifestation of reality - in Latin America. This is serious - a whole continent. China, India, South Africa and other states that have not quite decided yet.
Part of the world order knows that America is very dangerous. But that's only part of it. And in Europe, the Americans while keeping political control. The political, not social. Social control, they lose. A political and, of course, the military, hold. NATO's position is very strong there.
I am convinced that leaving NATO is a preliminary step to avoid war. And this platform of mine is gaining points. The audience is expanding and there is a group of members of the Italian parliament who are starting to speak in this spirit. I'm working on it now. I want an opposition to appear within parliament, which would say: we want to be neutral, outside NATO, like Austria. Austrian situation in Europe: independence, sovereignty and neutrality.
"TOMORROW". You have decided to become a member of the club Izborsk. Why?
Giulietto Chiesa. Because I believe that Russia today is a fundamental pillar to preserve peace in the world. If Russia withstands this attack, it will be salvation for all of us, no doubt. I say this not because I am pro-Russian, no, I am pro-European. It's very simple: I want to live. And he said this on TV: I want to live. My son and your children must live. For this, war must be avoided. Russia is a fundamental pillar of the preservation of peace, although not the only one.
And further. Russia and Europe have common interests. This is an objective fact. Russia is not an enemy, Russia is an ally of all mankind for survival. Russia has all the resources to pave the way for the transition period to a different way of life around the world. This requires 30-40 years. Europe needs Russia. The Americans can neither protect us, nor give us resources, which, by the way, are less and less. Having reasoned sensibly, having weighed all the arguments, you yourself can come to the conclusion that this is so. But we need to expand the audience to explain all this.
Recently in the city of Parma, I spoke at the Lyceum in front 17-18-year old students. I spoke 3 hours. And these guys have understood me perfectly. It was an optimistic call. I spoke openly: it will be difficult. But I say to you all that you can to protect themselves. The response was so positive that I was surprised. So this young audiences should be expanded. They just have zero information. They tabula rasa. But they are not stupid, they feel the situation. They feel that their fathers were in the best position.
"TOMORROW". I think that foreign tourism in Russia organized and elaborately prevents west side. And not only that there was no economic support due to tourism. But to the people who came, I did not see that everything we do not like them painted.
Giulietto Chiesa. Indeed, if they come here, they will find a completely different situation than they draw.
"TOMORROW". Why do you think that the keys to the world are in the hands of Russia? Why do you see in Russia the fundamental support of the whole world?
Giulietto Chiesa. There are times when nations react like people. They can hurt, they can be psychologically depressed or elevated ... Or they can feel danger. I see the Russians' reflex of defense. It `s naturally. They received one blow after another. Since the ideology of the "empire of good" was very strong, they believed that all talk about the danger of war, aggression from the West was propaganda of the Soviet Union. The prevailing propaganda that won in their hearts was this: everything said during the Soviet Union was wrong. And when Reagan said - an evil empire, even the Russians thought that their country was really an evil empire.
And now, when there is no Soviet Union, they are still attacking. For what? Then it creates a sense of danger. "We were beaten while we were dangerous. But now we do not represent any danger, but we were again beaten. Why are they against us?"
In Yekaterinburg, I met with young people about what I wrote an article that had a big resonance among my readers in Italy. In this article, I noted that at times the USSR has a certain nostalgia for millions of people. They lost a lot in the spiritual sense, and according to the specific conditions of life in which they found themselves, they could be nostalgic. But the young guys with whom I met, do not feel nostalgia. One girl asked me a direct question: "We were born in modern times, lived all these years in a society that has nothing to do with socialism, but we still do not like it." Why? "
These young spiritually educated in Western spirit, and suddenly they realize that the West does not like them. This puzzled the young Russian.
The guys who invited me are very creative and smart. I asked: who finances you? They say: nobody, we do everything ourselves. This means that this is a new Russian intelligentsia, initiative, which no longer reflects in the category of nostalgia, but in the category: in what world do we live? This is an open question, they have no answer yet. But the conviction that America is an empire of good is broken. Because they don't feel guilty. They did nothing wrong. "We were your friends, but we see that we are not loved." And this is a scrapping of old ideas. The question "why we are not loved" is not yet an answer, but it is a scrapping of the idea that there, in the West, are necessarily good. No, apparently not so good.
"TOMORROW". ... May be wrong in the assessment. And if they do not love us, although we have not done anything bad, maybe we did not like the USSR in the same way, although he did not do anything wrong.
Giulietto Chiesa. Yes exactly. Much depends on Russia now. Actually, the most important thing depends on it - the world.