Military Review

The mystery of Tsushima: the truth surfaced 110 years later

60
The mystery of Tsushima: the truth surfaced 110 years laterEven after Tsushima, Russia had serious chances to win the 1905 war of the year.

During the Russo-Japanese War in spring 1904, the country's leadership decided to form the Second Pacific Squadron. She had to go to the Far East and help the Russian army defeat Japan. However unparalleled in stories The campaign ended in May 1905 with a defeat near Tsushima Island.

Since then, more than a hundred years have passed, a lot of books and articles have been published on this topic, the course of the Tsushima battle has been disassembled almost by the minute, but even now many people are tormented by the question: how could this happen? It is not the fact of defeat that is surprising (after all, in the history of any fleet there were failures): the scale of the defeat is astounding. The huge Russian squadron ceased to exist, and the enemy escaped with only minor losses.

Tsushima is often compared to the Battle of Trafalgar 1805, when the British inflicted a heavy defeat on the Napoleonic fleet. However, there is no mystery. The revolution in France led to the fact that many experienced and highly skilled naval officers were removed from service, managerial chaos reigned in the fleet, and this fact undoubtedly affected the combat capability of the French fleet. So the outcome of the battle at Cape Trafalgar is largely logical.

But what happened at Tsushima? The researchers cite a whole list of reasons, among which the lion’s share is the enumeration of the gross errors of the squadron commander Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky. But if you look closely, it is noticeable that the answer is not given to the question that was asked. The main question is not at all what mistakes Rozhestvensky made, but why he made them. And here comes the universal answer: yes, simply because Rozhestvensky is a lack of talent, and that’s what he did.

Everyone knows Hanlon's Razor, a pseudo-intellectual rule of analytics, calling for not looking for malicious intent in actions that can be explained by stupidity. In fact, here we are dealing precisely with this principle, which is convenient, seemingly scientific, simple and ... in general, completely wrong. Moreover, in their daily lives, people, on the contrary, will begin precisely with suspicion of malicious intent. For example, if we did not find our car, left in the yard in the evening, in the morning, we will rush to report to the police about the hijacking. No one would even think of embarking on abstract arguments about unknown fools who simply got into a strange car by mistake and would soon return it. Here, from this point of view, let us analyze the actions of Rozhestvensky.

It is no secret that the Russian ships were generally inferior to the Japanese in speed. And what does our admiral do in such conditions? He takes with him into the breakthrough low-speed supply vehicles. Agree, a very strange decision. Where it is necessary to rush at full speed, relying on the fact that the Japanese will notice the squadron as late as possible, or even miss it, the caravan for some reason went at the speed of the slowest camel, and such a camel was the transports. Explain this act stupidity will not work, because it will take too prohibitive stupidity, and Rozhdestvensky certainly was not mentally retarded. What then is the matter? Perhaps, transports carried some so important cargo that it was impossible to do without it? For example, if the squadron did not have enough coal in order to reach Vladivostok, and the transports were needed just as coal transports, everything falls into place. But alas, it is not.

In the Russian Empire, a military commission was created at the Naval General Staff, which studied in detail the actions of the fleet in the Russian-Japanese war. And here is what she writes: “Admiral Rozhestvensky was forced to haul transports along while he was on the march, that is, in the event of a breakthrough through the Korea Strait no further than Shanghai or its immediate environs. The decision to leave the transports with the squadron in mind, having in mind a breakthrough, cannot be justified in any way, especially since these transports did not have any such cargoes that were vital for the squadron ... Situation in which the squadron was engaged in combat to cover its transport and the main forces of the fleet were sacrificed for their own supply — more than strange. ”

Pay attention: the commission did not find any reason justifying or at least explaining such strange behavior of Rozhestvensky. Moreover, a special piquancy of the situation is added by the fact that one of the transports carried pyroxylin. Few enemy shells, so we’ll also take the flammable substance with us!

In order not to bother the reader with a long enumeration of the mistakes made by Rozhestvensky, I will quote the general conclusion reached by the commission: “In the actions of the squadron chief, both in conducting the battle and in preparing it, it is difficult to find at least one correct action. The subordinate flagships acted sluggishly and without any initiative. Admiral Rozhestvensky was a man of strong will, courageous, ardently devoted to his work, a skillful organizer of supplies and economic units, an excellent sailor, but deprived of the slightest shadow of military talent. The march of his squadron from St. Petersburg to Tsushima was unprecedented in history, but in military operations, he showed not only a lack of talent, but also a complete lack of military education and combat training — qualities that he could not communicate to his squadron. ”

So, all the actions of Rozhestvensky were recognized as erroneous, that is, the commander failed all that was possible. We fix this moment. It is important, but it is also important in what form the commission says so. Judge for yourself: it is said that Rozhestvensky is both a strong-willed person, a courageous person, and a good organizer. But why did he, having such qualities, brought the squadron to total defeat? The commission claims that it turns out that he completely lacks a military education. But this is a well-known lie: after all, Rozhestvensky was one of the best graduates of the St. Petersburg Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy. Specialty - naval artilleryman.

The Commission writes that he did not have military training. This is also a lie. Rozhestvensky participated in the Russian-Turkish war, served for many years as a flagship officer on various ships, commanded a battleship and a cruiser, became chief of the Naval Staff ... In general, from all points of view, he was a well-deserved, experienced and well-prepared man. Why did the commission need to lie, and so deliberately awkwardly, telling tales about Rozhestvensky's lack of education and incompetence?

I think this is done on purpose so that everyone understands: it’s unclean. I believe that the commission considered Rozhestvensky a conscious saboteur, but did not dare to write directly about it. The consequences of such a statement would be too dangerous: after all, it was not a matter of banal betrayal. “If I were in the place of Nikki, I would immediately abdicate the throne. He could not blame anyone but himself for the Tsushima defeat, ”wrote Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich in his memoirs. The defeat of the fleet is a blow to Nicholas II, and the threads of sabotage, if there was one, of course, led to the very top. We know that the king was overthrown in the year 1917. Then the first persons of the state spoke against Nikolay, and it is possible that among them were the grand dukes. It is clear that the plot has ripened for a long time, and if you look at the 1905 revolution of the year as the “rehearsal” of February-1917, the version of sabotage during the Russian-Japanese war looks even more reasonable.

By the way, the commission notes that all the work of the general staff of the squadron was carried out personally by Rozhestvensky. This is an important detail: after all, if the admiral deliberately led the squadron to death, then he had to strive to complete the management decisions as much as possible. Other officers should not be aware of his plans. The fact that Rozhdestvensky replaced the General Staff with him is also indirect evidence of the admiral’s malicious intent.

The Tsushima defeat became a loud slap in the face to Nicholas II personally and to “tsarism” as a whole. But, although the ringing from it is heard so far, nevertheless, ordinary "Tsushima" reasoning is manipulative.

Recall the most popular of them: Russia was defeated at sea, which led to defeat in the war, and after Tsushima nothing remained but to make an unequal peace. Of course, all this is served along with streams of squeals in the spirit of "rotten tsarism", "mediocre admirals", "shame" and so on. But we will miss this sickening vulgarity: have we heard enough of it? Turn to the point.

So Tsushima is a defeat. Right? Right.

Russia signed an unequal peace treaty. Right? Right.

But how are these two true statements related? Please note: usually the link is replaced by propaganda noise. Almost no one bothers to demonstrate how the second follows from the first. And this clearly shows that before us is the most natural manipulation. Now let's open it up.

Let's start with the obvious. Japan is located close to Manchuria, and the main forces of Russia are very far away, and all the supplies to the Russian army were provided by the Trans-Siberian Railway. In turn, the Japanese are transferring armies by sea, which means that if we succeed in destroying the Japanese fleet, thereby cutting off supplies, this will automatically lead our country to victory. Moreover, Russia was considering the possibility of landing troops in Japan and seizing Tokyo. The second Pacific squadron was sent to the Far East precisely in order to change the situation at sea in favor of Russia. Yes, she ended her way to Tsushima, but what did the Japanese achieve thanks to their victory?

1. They are not allowed to cut their maritime communications.
2. They protected themselves from the threat of Russian troops on the Japanese islands themselves.

And where is about the defeat of Russia in the war? Here, only about the fact that the Russian will not land at Tokyo, and the Japanese will continue to supply their troops by sea. But the Russians, as before, continue to transfer their armies by land. That is, the status quo is preserved.

It was not possible to defeat the Japanese “by sea”, but this did not mean that Russia had no other means. The war went over Manchuria and influence in Korea, it was there that the Japanese landed their armies, it was there that the main events took place, there both sides suffered almost all their losses.

The war was overland, and in order for people to think differently, propagandists climbed and climbed so far. Of course, they are not able to prove anything, but they succeeded in shifting the accents of war perception, and that is why so much attention is paid so disproportionately to the events at sea. But we should not fall for the tricks of anti-Russian manipulators. Even after Tsushima, Russia still had serious chances for success, and we will talk about why they could not be implemented in the following articles.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2014/05/07/istoriya-khkh-veka/739263-taina-tsusimy-pravda-vsplyla-110-let-spustya
60 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Alerii
    Alerii 21 June 2014 09: 42
    +3
    At last! And here the Bolsheviks are to blame ... bravo to the author! Well licked .... And Christmas, among other things, was a revolutionary .. !! ??
    1. Army1
      Army1 21 June 2014 10: 39
      +1
      About the superiority of the Japanese fleet or vice versa, this is not for me, but I know for sure that the squadron itself was exhausted; it had to go around Africa, who would let us through Suez. And here the fresh forces of the Japanese. Yes, after Tsushima we could defeat this for sure. Yapi only hope for a quick war.
      1. Max
        Max 21 June 2014 11: 19
        +2
        1. They are not allowed to cut their maritime communications.
        2. They protected themselves from the threat of Russian troops on the Japanese islands themselves.

        And where about the defeat of Russia in the war? It is only about the fact that the Russians will not land near Tokyo, and the Japanese will continue to supply their troops by sea. But the Russians, as before, continue to transfer their armies overland. That is, the status quo is maintained

        What status quo is the loss of Manchuria would be a matter of time, and the theater of war would not be limited to Manchuria and Korea alone. Next would be Sakhalin, which would have been difficult to guard without a fleet. In general, the initiative after Tsushima has passed completely to the Japanese. One should also recall how England and France later joined Turkey in the Crimean War.
      2. washi
        washi 21 June 2014 14: 58
        +2
        Quote: Army1
        About the superiority of the Japanese fleet or vice versa, this is not for me, but I know for sure that the squadron itself was exhausted; it had to go around Africa, who would let us through Suez. And here the fresh forces of the Japanese. Yes, after Tsushima we could defeat this for sure. Yapi only hope for a quick war.

        There is a Tsushima site. There are not only ours, but also the Japanese.
        There are alt.historical books written by visitors to these sites.
      3. Interface
        Interface 21 June 2014 18: 43
        +3
        The Japanese squadron had clear advantages.

        Japanese ships were built according to the latest English technologies. They had a disciplined officer corps.
        And the second Pacific squadron bypassing Madagascar on the way to the Sea of ​​Japan was almost completely disarmed.

        The fact is that because of the hot climate, it was decided to remove part of the gunpowder from the shells so that they would not explode from overheating.

        As a result, when at the very beginning of the battle the shell of a Russian battleship hit directly at the command post of the Japanese commander (!), It simply did not explode.

        +
        On the ground, Russia did not have the opportunity to "crush" the Japanese in number, since it did not even have accurate information about the size of the Japanese army until the end of the conflict, that is, intelligence was at a new level. Wherever Kuropatkin poked, the Japanese were everywhere and without a fight it was impossible to cover the enemy, say, from the flanks.

        Among other things, this was affected by the specific attitude of the local population towards the Russians, as well as the elementary ignorance of the local language by Russian officers.

        As a result, the smaller Japanese army smashed Kuropatkin over and over again, all because it had brilliantly organized intelligence.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 22 June 2014 17: 02
          +2
          Quote: Interface
          The fact is that because of the hot climate, it was decided to remove part of the gunpowder from the shells,

          I put you a plus, but to be precise, the shells were equipped with pyroxylin! And the Japanese have a shimoza. hi And to say that the shell did not explode due to the pulled out powder is not competent at least! In fact, the reason was the poor quality of contact fuses (advanced technology at that time) hi
        2. Alex777
          Alex777 April 11 2018 18: 18
          0
          The fact is that because of the hot climate, it was decided to remove part of the gunpowder from the shells so that they would not explode from overheating.

          Respected! Of course you heard something, but ... wink
          If the gunpowder were withdrawn, the shell would not fly !!!
          But the fact that the pyroxylin in the shells, due to fears of spontaneous combustion, was humidified and it did not explode - yes it is. hi
      4. Drummer
        Drummer 22 June 2014 08: 10
        +3
        They let through Suez - there was a detachment of Felkersam.
    2. krpmlws
      krpmlws 21 June 2014 14: 28
      +7
      The reasons for the defeats during Tsushima, in the Russian-Japanese war, of course, are not sabotage, as the author tries to us (similar to the failure of 41g, some conspiracy theorists from history try to explain the sabotage by the command of the Red Army). The reasons should probably be sought during the reign of Nicholas 1, when Russia began in military technology lagged behind advanced Western countries. The decay of the highest power was also manifested in the lag of military science, and therefore military education. Were lost the mechanisms for selecting applicants for command posts. In practice, such selection should be carried out thanks to the constant conduct of local wars in which talented commanders could prove themselves, and during the decisive war there will always be handy commanders on whom you can rely. Nothing like that was done in the Russian army in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Only Kutuzov can be an exception, but he is a man of the 18th century. selection of senior officers, backlog of military science, education and military technologists They determined the collapse of tsarism. It should be noted that the local wars Khalkhin-Gol and Finnish played a crucial role in the future victory over Nazi fascism, if there weren’t these wars, the outcome of the war could be completely different.
      1. c3r
        c3r 21 June 2014 16: 17
        +3
        The author of course casts a shadow on the fence, but you, dear, are not accurate in your conclusions. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia (I repent too lazy to climb into books).
        "... Born into the family of a military doctor. In 1864 he entered the Naval Cadet Corps, which he graduated in 1868. In 1873 he graduated from the St. Petersburg Mikhailovskaya Artillery Academy with a degree in naval artillery and was released as a first rank lieutenant. For some time he served as a company commander The training detachment of the Baltic Fleet, participated in the work of the Commission of naval artillery experiments.
        In 1876 he participated in the preparation of artillery of the Black Sea Fleet for the impending Russian-Turkish war, after which he was appointed chief of artillery of the Black Sea Fleet. During the fighting, he repeatedly participated in cruising raids. In July 1877, while on the Vesta steamboat, he took command of the artillery in exchange for the killed Lieutenant Colonel Chernov and inflicted damage on the Turkish battleship Fethi-Bulend, which forced him to leave the battle. For this battle, Rozhdestvensky was promoted to lieutenant commander and awarded the orders of St. Vladimir of the 4th degree with swords and bow and St. George of the 4th degree.
        After the creation of independent Bulgaria, he was seconded to the newly established Bulgarian Navy and in the period 1883-1885 acted as "the chief of the Flotilla and the sea of ​​the Principality and the commander of the prince-Bulgarian yacht Alexander I". Under him, the first Bulgarian naval regulations were created.
        In 1886-1891 he served as a flagship officer, senior officer, captain of the ship in the Baltic and Pacific Fleets. Senior officer of the armored battery "Kremlin" (1887), frigate "Duke of Edinburgh". The commander of the clipper "Rider" (1890), the gunboat "Menacing" (1891).
        In 1891-1893 Rozhdestvensky, captain of the first rank, was a Russian naval attache in London.
        Since 1894 - commander of the cruiser Vladimir Monomakh, a member of the Mediterranean squadron of Rear Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov. He made the transition to the Far East along with the squadron.
        In 1896-1898 - Commander of the battleship of coastal defense "Firstborn".
        Since 1898 - Rear Admiral, commander of the Training and Artillery Unit of the Baltic Fleet.
        In 1900 he gained all-Russian fame thanks to the extremely clear-cut organization of work to save the battleship General Admiral Apraksin, which flew to the rocks near about. Hogland.
        In 1902/03, a year before the start of the Russo-Japanese War, Rozhestvensky was appointed to the post of chief of the Main Naval Staff.
        I think so with breeding and with wars everything was all right.
        1. krpmlws
          krpmlws 21 June 2014 17: 13
          0
          Quote: c3r
          repeatedly participated in cruising raids

          Quote: c3r
          took command of artillery in exchange for the killed Lieutenant Colonel Chernov and inflicted damage to the Turkish battleship Fethi-Bulend, which forced him to withdraw from battle
          All this is wonderful, Rozhdestvensky really could be entrusted with commanding a serious ship, an armadillo, for example. However, where is the long experience and victories in naval battles when commanding a squadron led by Rozhdestvensky? Thus, Rozhdestvensky before the battle of Tsushima was a kind of dark horse or not, it’s not clear, but when it became clear that no, it was too late. Here is the opposite example: Khalkhin-Gol. Here, G.K.Zhukov was put at the head of the Red Army group, who showed military leadership during the fighting. Thus, in the initial period of the Second World War, it could be safely put on the most critical sectors of the front, which led to a certain success.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 22 June 2014 12: 35
            +2
            "G.K. Zhukov, who during the hostilities showed a talent for leadership.
            Thus, in the initial period of the Second World War it could be safely put on
            the most critical sectors of the front, which led to a certain success. "///

            They set him up. He was early. General Staff 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX. And what "famous
            successes "?
          2. andrey_liss
            andrey_liss 4 May 2018 17: 15
            0
            Michael, don’t remember this non-commissioned officer and his ability in the bust, what he really could demand was that (I don’t know anything, but by the morning it was his command style). Khalkhin-Goal just confirms his inability to fight. Read the memoirs of the participants (they are also on this site) and you will understand what it is about.
      2. 16329
        16329 24 March 2020 12: 31
        0
        Under Nicholas I, Russia constantly waged local wars in Asia and Europe, the Caucasus and Poland, Hungary and the Balkans, etc.
        A lot of military experience was accumulated, and there was no serious lag in military affairs
        “Decay of power” is a completely non-specific and propaganda term
        The emperor walked freely around St. Petersburg without security
        But the opposition has always been at the top, often this opposition has locked itself in various world circles associated with leading powers because of their own commercial interests.
        Therefore, it is logical that opponents of Russia have always relied on internal conflict
        Hence the strange actions of Menshikov in Crimea, and the leadership of the Christmas Tsushima battle, and then the peace treaty that Witte concluded with the mediation of Roosevelt the first, from this the actions of Rennenkampf in East Prussia and the command of Evert on the western front, And Alekseev at headquarters in February 1917, further Pavlov in Belarus in 1941, etc.
        In general, this is logical, it is always easier to undermine a complex system from within, especially given the constant Russian split of elites between conditional "patriots" and "liberals"
        So it is happening now
    3. washi
      washi 21 June 2014 14: 54
      +2
      Quote: Alerii
      At last! And here the Bolsheviks are to blame ... bravo to the author! Well licked .... And Christmas, among other things, was a revolutionary .. !! ??

      The Bolsheviks have nothing to do with it.
      Rather, the Socialist Revolutionaries, Cadets and monarchists.
      Lenin, of course, wrote an article in English money, but the Bolsheviks really did nothing to defeat the war.
      Sorry, I did not find a VIL on the topic for quick work.
      It is necessary to roll up ALL the work of the VIL and IVS. Maybe even Mao, if I find the translation.
      1. Nuar
        Nuar 21 June 2014 17: 15
        +2
        found something to argue about. The article is generally some kind of nonsense.

        Tsushima is often compared to the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, when the British inflicted a heavy defeat on the Napoleonic fleet. However, there is no mystery. The revolution in France led to the fact that many experienced and highly qualified naval officers were removed from service, administrative chaos reigned in the fleet
        yeah, and the French probably didn’t have any purges in the army ...

        Russia has signed an unequal peace treaty. Right?
        no. (Most importantly, Russia did not sign a surrender, but a "peace treaty"). This treaty was signed as both empires had exhausted their ability to wage war. When signing the "unequal" treaty, Russia did not lose a single centimeter of its territory (although it did give Arthur and Dalny - which did not belong to her) - Awesome unequal agreement for a country that essentially lost the war.

        Russia was considering the possibility of landing troops in Japan and seizing Tokyo.
        O_o

        Ahhh ... so this is an article in the alternative fiction section ...
        1. Bassman
          Bassman 22 June 2014 12: 48
          +2
          But what about Count Witte "Polusakhalinsky"? feel
          When the "unequal" treaty was signed, Russia did not lose a single centimeter of its territory (although it did give Arthur and Dalny, which did not belong to it) - an awesome unequal treaty for a country that, in fact, lost the war.

    4. vas1964
      vas1964 22 June 2014 06: 05
      +1
      CHRISTMAS.
    5. vas1964
      vas1964 22 June 2014 06: 05
      0
      CHRISTMAS.
    6. Vladimir 5
      Vladimir 5 31 March 2018 13: 23
      -1
      The defeat at Tsushima occurred on the basis of a multitude of circumstances. Here, according to the Tsushima defeat, each "sewed his caftan." Do not forget that the rapid-firing naval guns, which made the main contribution to the victory, calculated this factor and armed the Japanese with anti-Russian Europe .... Losses give an impetus to understanding and correcting mistakes. According to the experience of the Japanese war, the RIA approached the WWI with some superiority: in machine-gun armaments and other things, it’s a pity the construction of battleships and their future role were buried by the revolution ...
    7. Silvio
      Silvio 7 May 2018 06: 49
      0
      The author abstracts from the domestic political situation in the Republic of Ingushetia, when the tops could no longer steer in the old way and could not wage a local war at hell for the sake of logging concessions in Korea. The resources of the empire are not unlimited, as is the patience of the people on whose bones this empire is expanding.
    8. Turist1996
      Turist1996 17 February 2019 19: 50
      0
      Where did the author manage to "lick" in the style of "the Bolsheviks are to blame for everything!" ?!
      It’s easy to smack nonsense - just to prove your position is not so easy .. Please! Justify!
  2. moremansf
    moremansf 21 June 2014 09: 54
    +2
    An interesting and informative article !!! The author is a big plus !!!
  3. Veteran of the Red Army
    Veteran of the Red Army 21 June 2014 10: 02
    0
    Even after Tsushima, Russia had serious chances to win the 1905 war of the year.


    Judging by the epigraph, it is not Christmas that deserves more attention.

    Kuropatkin Alexey Nikolaevich (1848-1925), adjutant general, infantry general, Minister of War (1898-1904), commander in chief of the Russian army in the Far East during the Russo-Japanese War; after losing the battle of Mukden in March 1905, he was removed from the post of commander in chief.
  4. Zerstorer
    Zerstorer 21 June 2014 10: 24
    +8
    Allow a few objections:
    1) Sabotage of Christmas. To begin with, he, as the chief of staff, was against sending the squadron. But whoever is closer to the emperor is right ... During the Tsushima battle, he was wounded and out of action. Do you think simulated? I think no.
    2) Slow-moving ships that reduce the overall progress of the squadron. Many ships were imposed on Rozhestvensky (by order). He included all this stuff in 3 armored squad.
    3) Not an equal world. What did you want? Japan's surrender? For better terms of the peace treaty, it was necessary to continue the war. And to continue the war, a determination is needed, which has not been there since the "emperor" himself.

    Who is not involved gives advice at best, but at worst orders. And then he is not responsible for his orders - shifting everything to the executor. It turned out that way. And finally the main thing. Rozhestvensky is a typical naval officer of his era. None of the detachment commanders, nor the junior flagship, were distinguished by initiative. NOBODY! "We ordered to roll a square one, and to carry a round one - that means we will do so. The Japanese will sink the entire squadron? I will do what they ordered, otherwise it is possible to be guilty of everything that happened." Something like that...
    1. Papakiko
      Papakiko 21 June 2014 11: 41
      +2
      Quote: Zerstorer
      None of the detachment commanders, nor the junior flagship, were distinguished by initiative. NOBODY! "We ordered to roll a square one, and to carry a round one - that means we will do so.

      Comrad, why is it always explained by this?
      The years 1941-42-43 also happened in a similar way, and then, what sharply gave freedom and initiative creaks to the command posts made their way?
      NO-NO and many more times NO.
      The reason is obvious on the surface: All countries of the world worked against the state in every possible way.
      As now in Novorossia, we cannot enter the army in the open, so in those years, not much was different. Pressure from outside, the pressure of internal capital and the interests of groups of individuals had a significant impact on everything.
      And from the generals and the people they made scapegoats.

      Nowadays, we have a similar situation with New Russia and Ukraine.
      Will she be a contemporary of "tsushima" or will we defend our interests?
      Repeatedly repeated words "If a country, choosing between war and shame, chooses shame, it gets both war and shame." Churchill.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 21 June 2014 12: 20
    +1
    I think so ... if it weren't for the Bolsheviks, there would be no defeat on the Kalka River ... They bastards, on the eve of the battle, read Lenin's article "What to do?" To the Russian-Polovtsian troops ... But seriously:Even after Tsushima, Russia had serious chances to win the 1905 war of the year.... not used? No .. why speculate ..? Author, write a better article on the topic .. A.V. Suvorov could not take Izmail ..
  6. bubla5
    bubla5 21 June 2014 13: 51
    +2
    , nothing is revealed, where are the reasons who is to blame
  7. Cristall
    Cristall 21 June 2014 14: 01
    +5
    Quote: Max
    What status quo is the loss of Manchuria would be a matter of time, and the theater of war would not be limited to Manchuria and Korea alone. Next would be Sakhalin, which would have been difficult to guard without a fleet. In general, the initiative after Tsushima has passed completely to the Japanese. One should also recall how England and France later joined Turkey in the Crimean War.

    disagree. Reserves Yapov tended to zero. Fresh forces, of course, were arriving, but the quality of the recruits did not go anywhere with the experience of those who had started the war. And there was little replenishment. Do not forget that the Yapi could start the war only by taking a loan from the USA! The loan was completely spent in England (on the fleet), so 2 countries played the financial scam of the beginning of the century. Along the way, Germany made good money (on supplies)
    I am in doubt that Yapi is prolonging the war. We will take into account that the Japanese were the first to speak about the world (more precisely, their Roosevelt allies) of the United States and insisted on peace + negotiated good conditions (the Yapes did not receive compensation in the form of reparations) and their ward YA.
    When the goals of the war were achieved (RI and YA were weakened and in debt), the sponsors immediately insisted on concluding peace. RI forces were needed at the European theater and YA was needed against the Asian ...
    If the war was a protracted RI, it would change dramatically .. yes, and communications in the Far East would develop even then. There is such a tradition - the protracted war happens, the Russians win it ...
    But to drag the fleet of the Baltic and the World Cup was pointless ... cruiser units were needed .. and there were no armadillos. The first squadron was supposed to do the weather and not marinate in the inner and outer roads of the port of Arthur's puddle ...
    1. Alf
      Alf 21 June 2014 17: 35
      +2
      Quote: Cristall
      But to drag the fleet of the Baltic and the World Cup was pointless ... cruiser units were needed .. and there were no armadillos. The first squadron was supposed to do the weather and not marinate in the inner and outer roads of the port of Arthur's puddle ...

      What cruisers? In the first squadron of really battle-worthy cruisers there were 2 (TWO) -Askold and Bayan. Well, with a great stretch, Novik can be attributed, but Novik is not a full-fledged cruiser, but rather, the leader is not suitable for the classic battle.
      In the second squadron, and even worse, Oleg and all. It is impossible to consider first-class cruisers Aurora and Pallad with 8x152mm and 20 knots. By the way, there were no armored cruisers in the second squadron at all.
      A huge drawback (and Comrade Stalin would say "hereditary") was the lack of a normal ship repair plant in both Arthur and Vladivostok.
      Only battleships could then ensure supremacy at sea. What would Russian cruisers have to do when meeting with Mikasa, Fuji and Asahi, but did they walk in pairs, or even a triple? Only either retreat (and, in fact, lose) or perish, because not a single cruiser is initially calculated for the opposition of the EBR. It was not for nothing that Admiral Makarov with any fire contact of his cruisers immediately withdrawn armadillos.
      1. Cristall
        Cristall 22 June 2014 00: 00
        +3
        Quote: Alf
        What cruisers? In the first squadron of really battle-worthy cruisers there were 2 (TWO) -Askold and Bayan. Well, with a great stretch, Novik can be attributed, but Novik is not a full-fledged cruiser, but rather, the leader is not suitable for the classic battle.

        Well, there were more cruisers, but "goddesses" are rubbish Dashka Palashka, of course
        Novik Askold Bayan - they all used more than destroyers! Especially Bayan and Novik. They are about the same speed (well, 25 and 20 knots in Bayan)
        The Bayan is generally the only armored cruiser 1TE. But I wrote a lot. It was not in vain that the whole sea blocked ... Even one Novik at the coal replenishment bases (but Fort Korsakovsky demonstrated this was tight) could make a rustle on the approaches to Yogokama (where are the main routes)
        It so happened that the main base of Nagasaki and Sasebo. Almost no one defended Ikogama.
        Togo did not spray his strength at all. He concentrated under Arthur and was looking for a general battle (we must think that he also believed either pan or disappeared - for it would be difficult to restrain the cruiser - you need to chase everyone in superiority)
        Quote: Alf
        In the second squadron, and even worse, Oleg and all. It is impossible to consider first-class cruisers Aurora and Pallad with 8x152mm and 20 knots. By the way, there were no armored cruisers in the second squadron at all.

        I generally think that it was necessary to send a detachment of cruisers to communicate immediately. But the enormous pressure of England and the United States on the safety of maritime communications (in fact, the ultimatum of RI)
        Quote: Alf
        A huge drawback (and Comrade Stalin would say "hereditary") was the lack of a normal ship repair plant in both Arthur and Vladivostok.

        how the Russians entered Arthur began to build batteries, not a factory. The war was not far off. Build a factory (this is a lot of time) but don’t build the same Electric Cliff ... but they would smash it along with the factory ..

        Quote: Alf
        Only battleships could then ensure supremacy at sea. What would Russian cruisers have to do when meeting with Mikasa, Fuji and Asahi, but did they walk in pairs, or even a triple? Only either retreat (and, in fact, lose) or perish, because not a single cruiser is initially calculated for the opposition of the EBR. No wonder Admiral Makarov, with any fire contact of his cruisers, immediately pulled out armadillos

        Cruisers are needed for cruising operations. The Far East is just a continuous cruising operation (especially on Japanese communications in the Pacific Ocean) only armored cruisers are involved in a classic battle. Although 1 TE was quite successful in the battle with armored ones ... It was not for nothing that the cruiser detachment saved much more cruisers than armored ...
        Makarov led armadillos so that Togo would not bombard them right in the harbor! And at the same time he stopped this strange tradition (which was after his death) in the form of a squadron in the internal roads and Togo is fighting with one Electric Cliff! Squadron + Electric Cliff and Golden Mountain was what usually forced Togo to leave without a slurp of bread ... Since it was dangerous to remain under the fire of all the guns ...
  8. OPTR
    OPTR 21 June 2014 14: 18
    0
    The commission claims that it turns out to be completely lacking a military education. But this is a well-known lie

    More accurate. There is no lie. Just the commission in the quote cited by the author does not state the lack of education, but says that the admiral showed ... and the complete lack of military educationand not that such an education is missing.
    Those. education was, it is not denied, but man showed something else. Much clearer.
  9. bbss
    bbss 21 June 2014 14: 39
    +2
    What is the article about? negative
  10. starshina wmf
    starshina wmf 21 June 2014 14: 41
    -3
    What to ted up the old, at the moment we are losing ground in Ukraine. And what happened in 1904, then we'll figure it out.
  11. bred55
    bred55 21 June 2014 14: 52
    -1
    Here it is, real freedom in Russian! The National Search of all the inhabitants of our state walks freely on the Internet. You just look http://peopleofrussia.in It's outrageous! Personally, I found complete, and most importantly, reliable information, also on relatives.
  12. zoknyay82
    zoknyay82 21 June 2014 15: 08
    +2
    If you are not satisfied with the conclusions of the tsarist commission and the decision of the military court, provide documentary evidence. In my humble opinion, the parquet generals and admirals rushed to throw their hats at the "wild Japs" hoping for a quick and easy victory, well, for a medal and other preferences, but no, it did not work out at all
  13. opl34
    opl34 21 June 2014 15: 17
    -1
    In the same war, Japan for the first time used large-caliber (up to 12 inches) ship artillery shells with a charge mass of trinitrophenol up to 41 kg, which could not penetrate armor protection, but caused significant damage to the decks and showed good efficiency.
    From the ship there was only a scorched armor box.
  14. alicante11
    alicante11 21 June 2014 15: 52
    +4
    The article is nonsense.
    1. ZPR, of course, not, but not a revolutionary. It’s just that the GS went in a 9-junction course not because they covered the transport - this is stupid. And because our battleships themselves had heavily worn out vehicles for the transition. It would be great if several EBRs got out of order during the battle, as was the situation at the beginning of the battle near Borodino. In general, the beginning of the battle with ZPR is good. The Japanese parted with us on counter-courses and for the old EBRs of the 2nd and 3rd detachments we beat BrKr from the Japanese. What did we need for the Japanese BrKr maximum time to be under fire. And they would have knocked out, and so Asama was the first ship to fail in this battle. And so high speed was also harmful. And Togo understood this very well. And so I ventured to turn on a parallel course at a range of effective enemy fire. So what to do? In the Yellow Sea, he had already flown over once and half a day caught up with Vitgeft's low-speed vessels. However, the risk for the Japanese was great, Mikasa got a lot of shells. I note that we opened fire when the enemy turned, that is, the ZPR immediately and categorically correctly reacts to a changing situation. It was a CHANCE. After knocking out the Japanese flagship ZPR could greatly disrupt the management of the Japanese fleet. And therefore, it would be foolish to increase the speed to bring down the sighting, at the same time risking the need to reduce it again due to the failure of one of the EBRs, or the loss of several trunks firing at Mikasu. Fortunately for the Japanese, Togo calculated everything very correctly. Mikasa withstood the shelling and, overtaking our convoy, became out of reach for most of the ships. Whereas ZPR waited too long for the impact of our shells to affect, while Suvorov himself was bombarded with high-explosive shells. And he did not lose the means of communication destroyed by shrapnel and fires. In principle, ZPR could not have expected such a strong impact, because according to the experience of the same battle in ZhM, Tsesarevich, for example, retained not only control and all the main artillery, but also the communications equipment that appeared during the transfer of command. ZPR, on the other hand, could not even transfer command until it hit Bedovy.
    In general, Togo's greater combat experience and, in part, his luck affected.
    1. Cristall
      Cristall 22 June 2014 00: 07
      +2
      Quote: alicante11
      In general, Togo's greater combat experience and, in part, his luck affected.

      He was terribly at risk (in a modern way - since, as a Japanese, he was a samurai and was not afraid of death) being under Shatung, in Tsushima on Mikasa bridge when people were dying nearby. I note that his sky spared. He remained a hero and alive. And the ship still stands ...
      The Russians also shot at the flagship in both cases. I can’t say that shimoza was a decisive factor (although even psychologically the nature of the lesions is terrible)
      there was a war of nerves ... Togo survived (+ luck) under the Shatung ... and Tsushima was much easier ..
      1 TE was much more serious than 2 and 3 ... But Vitgeft was torn to pieces on the bridge ... both were approximately on equal positions on their ships ... the whole war was like that ..
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 22 June 2014 02: 59
        +1
        I can’t say that shimoza was a decisive factor (although even psychologically the nature of the lesions is terrible)


        Perhaps, the smaller distance of the battle played a greater role here, with a sharp increase as a result of the number of hits of six-inch shells. What was not observed in Shantung. As a result, quantity turned into quality. True, this took half a day.

        1 TE was much more serious than a nut than 2 and 3 ... But Vitgeft was torn to pieces on the bridge ... both were approximately on equal positions on their ships ... the whole war was like that.


        There is an opinion that both TE 1 and TE 2 were not "whipping boys" at all. It's just that the Japanese managed to defeat them one by one, realizing their advantages. Whereas we could not realize ours. The Japanese, according to the experience of the Chinese wars, bet on the NC, while we on the GC. Their bet was winning. True, on the verge. Shantung gave no result, and it took too much time to defeat the 2nd TE. As a result, the British put on the Dreadnought.
        1. Cristall
          Cristall 22 June 2014 16: 13
          +1
          Quote: alicante11
          here the smaller distance of the battle played a greater role with a sharp increase as a result of the number of hits of six-inch shells. What was not observed in Shantung. As a result, quantity turned into quality. True, this took half a day.

          1TE left, it was not going to take the fight, the task was to break through (it doesn’t matter in pieces ... Vitgeft is generally an indefinite commander regarding orders)
          therefore, only Retvisan (after the circulation of the flagship) came close and the cruising detachment of Rear Admiral N.K. Reitsenstein with the cruisers.
          I am sure that this battle was to become a victory of the Russian fleet.
          168 killed and wounded by the Russians and 208 killed and wounded by the Japanese
          even if you believe the reports on the wiki
          Not a single ship was sunk in this battle, although both Russian and Japanese ships suffered serious damage during the battle. From a material point of view, the Japanese were defeated: for example, the flagship of the Russians, “Tsesarevich” had all the guns operational, and was able to restore controllability by the end of the day, while the “Mikasa” had 100% main guns and 50% medium-caliber guns malfunctioning. In total, according to various sources, 6–12 large-caliber shells hit the “Tsesarevich”, while the “Mikasu” got 22 [2]. If the battle continued, the situation of the Japanese would become even more critical - because they ran out of shells, unlike the Russians, who shot less often, but, as can be seen from the numbers of hits, they were better aimed. Of the twenty-three 305- and 254-mm Russian guns, only four, that is 17%, failed, by the end of the battle, that is 66%, and out of 6 11-inch guns, 17, or also XNUMX%, failed. The Japanese on one Mikasa lost as many main-caliber guns that failed as the Russians lost on all six of their battleships
          I will say that it was necessary to go to the end. Go the Russian squadron to the end - the Japanese did not have any reserve .. their fleet would either be repaired in Sasebo before the end of the war or would be unsuitable for war ...
          At the cost of even the loss of 1 TE ... though the state of the Russian squadron was less deplorable than the Japanese - but psychologically the Russians were somehow worse. Life factor TOGO meant much more to the Japanese than a torn Vitgeft!
          The British put on the Dreadnought, proceeding precisely from the battle in the Yellow Sea, where the Japanese, in principle, lost (although politely offered to consider them a victory)
          1. alicante11
            alicante11 23 June 2014 12: 58
            0
            1TE left, it was not going to take the fight, the task was to break through (it doesn’t matter in pieces ... Vitgeft is generally an indefinite commander regarding orders)


            Well, 2TE also broke into Vladivostok. Nord-ost 23.

            therefore, only Retvisan came close (after the circulation of the flagship)


            This is from Stepanov. It was just that the command was not immediately transferred to Tsesarevich and Retvizan followed him into a turn, and then Shensnovich was wounded while the essence of the matter was, then turned away.

            and the cruising detachment of Rear Admiral N.K. Reitsenstein with the cruisers.


            They fought well, though they also broke through.

            I am sure that this battle was to become a victory of the Russian fleet.


            There are other opinions. What is the victory? Among the Japanese, only Mikasa was seriously injured. A breakthrough - yes, was possible. Although, I can’t imagine how they would later break through the straits at Tsushima.

            From a material point of view, the Japanese were defeated:


            Is it like in Jutland Sheer did Jellico :)?
            Rather, Hipper did Beatty. Also in ZhM, Tsesarevich reprimanded Mikasu.

            I will say that it was necessary to go to the end. Go the Russian squadron to the end - the Japanese did not have any reserve .. their fleet would either be repaired in Sasebo before the end of the war or would be unsuitable for war ...


            The Japanese had a first-class repair base, which, unfortunately, we did not have.

            All in all - a good tactical combat draw and strategic defeat. A complete analogy to Jutland. The magnificent POF also ended his life at the bottom of the bay, as did the 1st TOE.
  15. Russian jacket
    Russian jacket 21 June 2014 16: 18
    +1
    Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist, seeing the battle from the side. "A knight in the skin of a leopard. Shota Rustaveli ..."
  16. Selevc
    Selevc 21 June 2014 17: 42
    +1
    In my opinion, the main question is not why Russia lost to Tsushima, but why did Russia have an outdated fleet and Japan have a modern one by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War? Why was Russia the richest country by the beginning of the 20th century still unable to create a powerful and modern fleet ???
    The answers are obvious and lie on the surface - because under the external beautiful facade of Tsarist Russia rot and trash (careerism, formalism, window dressing and embezzlement of the tops of the army and navy) have bloomed in terry for a long time ... In peacetime, this was hardly noticeable and war these problems are especially acute bared ...
    1. Angro Magno
      Angro Magno 22 June 2014 01: 10
      +1
      Russia had a modern fleet. No need to invent.
      1. Selevc
        Selevc 22 June 2014 07: 29
        -1
        Quote: Angro Magno
        Russia had a modern fleet. No need to invent.
        And where was he this modern fleet ??? - except in the inflamed brain of modern urapatriots nowhere else !!! A simple analysis of the losses resulting from the battle of Tsushima shows that it was more likely that the Japanese were beating the Russians and not a real battle of more or less equal opponents ... How can you explain this?

        Japan, being a semi-feudal state in the middle of the 19th century, by the beginning of the 20th century already had a modern army and navy, and Russia, having completely absurdly lost the Crimean War, did not learn from the defeat and by the beginning of the 20th century it was again in the role " always catching up "...
        1. Angro Magno
          Angro Magno 22 June 2014 10: 13
          +2
          Let us together consider the EDB to be no more than 7 years old:

          Russia
          "Sevastopol" - 1898 - 1 pc.
          "Retvizan" - 1900 - 1 pc.
          "Oslyabya" - 1901-1903 - 3 pcs.
          "Tsarevich" - 1903 - 1 pc.
          "Borodino" - 1903 - 4 pcs.
          TOTAL - 10 pcs.

          Japan
          "Fuji" - 1897 - 2 pcs.
          "Sikishima" - 1900-1901 - 2 pcs.
          "Asahi" - 1900-1902 - 2 pcs.
          TOTAL - 6 pcs.

          Any more questions? Ask, do not be shy.
          1. Selevc
            Selevc 22 June 2014 14: 17
            +3
            You are partly right - if you just compare the number of ships !!! But as they say it’s not technology that is fighting - people are fighting !!!
            The fleet is not only a certain number of ships - the main thing is an experienced command, a trained (trained) crew, new progressive tactics of warfare, the use of combat experience and traditions ...
            None of this is observed at all in the actions of the Russian squadron ... The situation is ridiculously paradoxical - the battle is being fought as if the Japanese fleet was 200 years old and the Russian was born of God yesterday ...

            In addition to the obvious failures associated with the interaction between the squadron ships during the battle, the obvious strategic mistakes of the Russian command are also especially noticeable: 1. To divide increasingly less powerful ships into groups and mix them with weak and slow-moving ones means to lose the battle before the battle ... Make this is in the era of speed cruisers - This is just an outright crime !!!
            2. The fact that the main and most powerful Russian ships were quickly put out of action on the first day of the battle indicates the low survivability of ships and poor maneuverability ...
            3. The monstrous difference in the firing efficiency of the Russian and Japanese fleets is immediately evident ... There was clearly something wrong with our guns and gun crews ...
            4. The order to almost all cruisers and half of destroyers to guard transports and then send everyone together somewhere to the east is the second crime ...
            5. The Japanese also made many tactical mistakes during the battle, but the Russians didn’t take advantage of any of them - this indicates a complete lack of efficiency and initiative in the middle ranks of the Russian command ...
            6. Much has been written about the fact that the Russians seemed to be tired at the end of such a long voyage around southern Eurasia - but any squadron claiming the title of "Oceanic" should actually "live" in the sea for months and even years, and for personnel it should be a matter of habit ... Moreover, it was a stone's throw from the Tsushima Islands to Vladivostok and it was only necessary to make the last leap ...

            In general, as the great Suvorov said - "They fight not by number but by skill" ... Under Tsushima, the Russians had a number, but the skill was clearly lacking !!!
            1. Angro Magno
              Angro Magno 22 June 2014 23: 28
              +1
              Dear Selevc
              The battles regarding Tsushima in specialized forums have died out for a long time and you obviously did not participate in them.
              But let's sort your points in order.
              1. The battle was won not by fast cruisers, but by squadron battleships. Let me remind you that the Japanese put new armored cruisers with a speed of 20 knots into the formation of battleships with 18 knots. That is, Togo was forced to do the same as Rozhdestvensky.
              2. Let me remind you that as a result of overloading our EDB with coal, the armored belt went under water. That is, They were no longer armadillos. The "Oslyaby" noses were not armored at all.
              3. The weight of the side salvo of the Japanese fleet exceeded ours by 30%. The salvo weight of 8-12” exceeded ours by 2 times. At the same time, about a third of our shells did not explode. Japanese shells always exploded. Otherwise, "Mikasa" would have every chance of dying at the same time as "Oslyabey".
              4. The outcome was decided by the main caliber. Cruisers would only get in the way.
              5. I do not understand what kind of initiative in the middle link can be discussed in a squadron naval battle.
              6. In Russia, the Gulf of Finland freezes in winter. For half a year the crews lived in barracks on the shore.
              Thus, there are only two key reasons for the defeat:
              1. Coal overload due to the fact that new EDBs were built for the Baltic and did not have the necessary autonomy.
              2. Defective shells. I suspect this is the result of sabotage.
              There are other reasons (skill), but they are secondary.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  17. Angro Magno
    Angro Magno 21 June 2014 17: 45
    +5
    So what mystery has surfaced?
    The article is empty.
  18. Takashi
    Takashi 21 June 2014 18: 52
    +2
    I also read it - but did not find the secret. Absl empty article.
  19. Floock
    Floock 21 June 2014 20: 34
    +1
    What movie can I see about Tsushima? Not documentary, but artistic?
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 21 June 2014 21: 11
      +2
      The Japanese filmed, both about Tsushima and Port Arthur, feature films, somewhere in the late 70s in the early 80s .. I did not watch .., but in the newspaper "Izvestia" in Soviet times .. there was a critical article about these films .. that the events are presented one-sided and biased .. the Japanese are exceptionally noble, and the Russian cattle .. Big article ..
      1. Floock
        Floock 21 June 2014 21: 18
        +2
        Found, now I'm watching "Battle in the Sea of ​​Japan", 1969. There the Japanese present themselves as heroes, of course - the Russians, like, had a huge numerical superiority. But the film shows respect and even a sense of friendship for the Russians.
        Is there some more:
        "Orchestra with" Mikasa "", 1983
        "Height 203", 1980
        "Emperor Meiji and the Russo-Japanese War", 1958
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 22 June 2014 08: 42
          0
          This is a film of 1969 .. Then, Soviet-Japanese films were shot .. the warming of relations ... I’m talking about later .. I don’t remember the names, but I think not these films .. there was a detailed article, literally every episode .. why did it remain in memory
      2. Cristall
        Cristall 22 June 2014 00: 11
        +3
        Quote: parusnik
        The Japanese filmed, both about Tsushima and Port Arthur, feature films, somewhere in the late 70s in the early 80s .. I did not watch .., but in the newspaper "Izvestia" in Soviet times .. there was a critical article about these films .. that the events are presented one-sided and biased .. the Japanese are exceptionally noble, and the Russian cattle .. Big article ..

        Well, it’s understandable - patriotic for themselves.
        It’s a shame that none of ours bothered to make a film Port Arthur or moments from the RPE where there was so much heroism (and meaningless deaths)
        the gold mine of cinema ... and we are still afraid of the theme of the RJAV ... the impression that the "damned" war ... do not stir up the past ...
        then they took revenge at 45 .. but the heroes were not remembered ....
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 22 June 2014 08: 47
          0
          Yes, we do not have films about Khalkhin Gol, there is a three-episode about 1945 .. The order is not to cross the border .. but no more .. there about scouts .. The story of Kuprin, captain Rybnikov, about a Japanese spy was filmed .. But anyway, it’s very small .. although the topic is extensive .. On the other hand .. they don’t make real films about the war, they’re making some popular films .. I don’t want to watch ..
        2. Bassman
          Bassman 22 June 2014 13: 02
          +1
          I absolutely agree with you! Now the technical capabilities ("Admiral" - scene with the battleship "Glory", "Pearl Harbor") allows you to shoot any sea battle scenes!
          Since childhood I have read these books several times !!! ("Tsushima", "Port Arthur"), and I just dream of seeing a movie based on motives someday! Then these books turned my mind! And now I have been fond of the navy for 20 years!
      3. Bassman
        Bassman 22 June 2014 12: 54
        0
        I watched these films, at that time they were shot very high quality, the ships were shown in detail, in general they made a good impression lol I just don’t remember the name ... recourse
  20. pinecone
    pinecone 21 June 2014 21: 09
    0
    Quote: Nuar
    found something to argue about. The article is generally some kind of nonsense.

    (Most importantly, Russia did not sign a surrender, but a "peace treaty"). This treaty was signed as both empires had exhausted their ability to wage war. When signing the "unequal" treaty, Russia did not lose a single centimeter of its territory (although it did give Arthur and Dalny - which did not belong to her) - Awesome unequal agreement for a country that essentially lost the war.


    Under the terms of the Portsmouth Peace Treaty, Russia transferred the territory of South Sakhalin to Japan.
  21. Cristall
    Cristall 22 June 2014 00: 15
    +1
    There Witte himself gave ... for which he received the nickname ...
    RI could not sign a peace treaty. In general, the terms of the contract were not the same as at least.
    The Japanese themselves treated the Russians with great respect (diametrically opposed to the Chinese - whom they killed everywhere) to prisoners of war and in general. Lied a little about the losses, but were polite (you can see the American school of communication with the white civilization)
    The text of the contract, I can say for sure, was written by Roosevelt (well, or by American people) where to minimize the image losses of RI so that it agrees with the losses.
  22. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 22 June 2014 01: 57
    +2
    In principle, the author has the right to express his opinion. This is just one of the attempts to explain what happened. Only for this "approvals".
    Was the naval composition of Russia weaker than that of the Japanese? Here you can speculate.
    The policy of shyness from side to side never brings to good. And this is very characteristic of the Russian doctrine of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. If the ideas themselves were still tolerable, then the projects of the ships and the culture of construction left much to be desired. After all, ships built abroad were many times better and more efficient than domestic ones. The only thing that could level the difference was people. The words that the type did not have time to build and place orders on their own abroad do not justify obvious miscalculations in planning. Half of the Arthur squadron consisted of foreign ships. Two of seven armadillos, five of seven cruisers. So what? Ships were destroyed by the human factor - cowardice, mediocrity of command. The lack of initiative of the command staff of the ships themselves. Some examples of brave commanders only confirm this. One in the field is not a warrior.
    The second squadron consisted entirely of domestic ships. A hodgepodge of different types, old and new ships could not withstand the uniformity of the Japanese fleet. Here only the human factor could play a role. And if on individual ships combat training was at its best, then the absence of such a squadron as a whole played a key role. After all, it’s not the ships that are fighting, but the people, as Nelson said (or maybe attributed). They could only die.
    In general, there are a lot of inconsistencies and misses in planning a war on DVT; therefore, this topic requires a deeper study. Because of its mobilization resources, Russia would eventually win this war. Even without a fleet. So the matter is dark.
  23. Angro Magno
    Angro Magno 22 June 2014 10: 14
    +1
    Quote: Interface
    The Japanese squadron had clear advantages.

    Japanese ships were built according to the latest English technologies.


    Russian ships were built using the latest French technology.
    1. Bassman
      Bassman 22 June 2014 13: 05
      0
      And German - "Novik", "Emerald", "Almaz", "Heroes &
      quot; ... good
  24. Cristall
    Cristall 22 June 2014 16: 22
    +1
    Quote: Angro Magno
    Russian ships were built using the latest French technology.

    Well, debatable ... Retvisan + Varangian is Kramp
    The same Boyarin ...
    Cesarevich, yes ...
    In general, if we compare the core of the squadron, then the completely English squadron (Core) of Togo was opposed to the core by the hodgepodge of Frenchmen + Americans + Germans + Russian battleships.
    That is, the Japanese core was of the same type, and the Russian one was of a different type.
    At the same time, I can say that I prefer the Russian core if it is not specifically Russian armadillos that are included in it. Tsesarevich + Retvizan alone cost much more than any Peresvet and Sevastopol .. And it was they who took the main cup of suffering and patience in battles.
    so the best ships of that war were not built in Russian or Japanese shipyards ..... the rivalry of the world's shipbuilding schools was what it was.
    So if all the battleships were Tsesarevichs / Retvisans, then TOGO had little chance. Be them at least 4..a not 2.. It is a pity that 2 Tsesarevichs and Retvizanov did not order ... Krum quickly built (I hope it is reliable not like the Varangian) and the French did not disappoint ..
    However, history does not tolerate subjunctive .... At any stage, the Russians could and should have turned the tide of the war .... but everywhere a tragic event, rock / coincidence / death of the right people ... someone really cursed the Russian army and especially the fleet .. .
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 23 June 2014 02: 17
      +1
      "real someone cursed the Russian army and especially the navy." ///

      More practical firing, and all the curses from the army and the navy will be removed.
      When shells and bullets are saved on exercises, Tsushima is sure to come.
      1. andrey_liss
        andrey_liss 4 May 2018 17: 29
        0
        You are wrong Russian artillerymen of that time were considered the best, read the recollections of the same Japanese. I read, alas, I don’t remember where, and it’s very disappointing that I can’t give a link to the source, something like the Germans were the second — they covered the target from the third salvo: flight, undershot, hit, and the Russians from the second.
  25. brn521
    brn521 23 June 2014 15: 13
    0
    Quote: Zerstorer
    None of the commanders of the detachments, nor the younger flagship, were distinguished by initiative.

    A plus. Our army has the main qualities - rigidity and slowness. It will shake a little, something will go wrong, everything will fall apart at once, a mess begins, confusion and unjustified losses. As a result, a more agile, flexible and prudent opponent gains an advantage.
    Yes, we had a great and heroic army. As far as I remember, the first monument to the defenders of Port Arthur was built by the Japanese, but they do not erect monuments in vain. But the task in the war is to complete the task, and not die heroically.
    Here is the same "Varyag", for example. He did not give up and became a historical example for the fleets of the whole world. But on closer inspection, what was he doing? He took with him a slow-moving "Koreyets" and swam into a losing battle with superior forces. What for? To show that Russians don't just give up. A good target, but the result is predictable, the cruiser is lost. With the same success it could be flooded immediately. Therefore, more than once in various analyzes it was pointed out that the only meaningful action on his part, instead of an ineffectual firefight, was the initial sinking of the low-speed Koreyets and an attempt to break through with a fight in order to save the ship. The chances are not 100%, but far from zero, it depends on how the Japanese shells fall, whether it will be possible to keep the course and not substitute itself under torpedoes from destroyers. But for such a decision, in fact, much more heroism was required.
  26. brn521
    brn521 23 June 2014 15: 13
    0
    Quote: Angro Magno
    Thus, there are only two key reasons for the defeat:
    1. Coal overload due to the fact that new EDBs were built for the Baltic and did not have the necessary autonomy.
    2. Defective shells. I suspect this is the result of sabotage.

    Even so, this is where flexibility and initiative are needed. Know your shortcomings, predict future events on this basis and make the right decisions on this basis, spitting on all the nonsense that was sent by telegrams from above under the guise of "highest instructions." But that's if you want to win. And if you're just a gear in a big, clumsy car, then we got what we deserved.
    Quote: Angro Magno
    Russian ships were built using the latest French technology.

    Actually, there was progress after all. I read the story of the creation of Russian battleships. At first they bought, then they began to do it themselves, more expensive and lower quality than foreign ones. It's funny, even the steam engine could not be assembled correctly on one of the battleships. The speed was below the calculated. But in the end, many problems were resolved. True, by this time the Americans began to build the Dreadnoughts, and the battleships suddenly and immediately became outdated. The main thing is that we have an industry capable of solving serious problems. It's like with a t-72 tank. Equipment for production had to be partially purchased abroad, but the tank was ours, it was advanced, and it was produced by us.
    Quote: Cristall
    Tsesarevich + Retvizan alone cost much more than any Peresvet and Sevastopol

    However, organizational issues remained. The advantage did not prevent them from dying in Port Arthur in the most disgraceful way for ships - under the fire of some unfortunate cheap land mortars. This "great battle" is far from even Tsushima. And the trained sailors had to get down to business that regular infantry could handle. In general, we constantly had some kind of problems with organization and management. Even Admiral Makarov, it seemed, was not a teapot, but he died not from a shell or a torpedo, but from some unfortunate Japanese mine. Those. became a victim of his own hindsight. It is a pity, if not for this, it is still unknown how the Russo-Japanese war turned out.
  27. Alex
    Alex 15 July 2014 14: 54
    +2
    It seems to me that the author was a little carried away. It turns out that Rozhdestvensky was a clairvoyant, leading the squadron to the slaughter in advance, when Port Arthur was not yet occupied by the Japanese and the 1-TOE remained fully operational. Or did his revolutionary-conspiratorial tendencies appear only after Madagascar? In general, minus.
  28. Artem Popov
    Artem Popov April 4 2018 10: 20
    0
    Quote: Interface
    The Japanese squadron had clear advantages.

    Japanese ships were built according to the latest English technologies. They had a disciplined officer corps.
    And the second Pacific squadron bypassing Madagascar on the way to the Sea of ​​Japan was almost completely disarmed.

    The fact is that because of the hot climate, it was decided to remove part of the gunpowder from the shells so that they would not explode from overheating.

    As a result, when at the very beginning of the battle the shell of a Russian battleship hit directly at the command post of the Japanese commander (!), It simply did not explode.


    What nonsense. They increased the moisture content of peroxylin (even in St. Petersburg) due to the transition in hot latitudes.
    By the way, the explosive charge there is a couple of percent of the mass of the armor-piercing projectile, he nevertheless makes the main damage due to kinetic energy
    And if the 12 "shell hit and struck the Mikasa cabin, I assure you, he would not have to burst at all, there would have been a snowstorm from the fragments of the cabin itself (tiny in volume, 4-6 sq. M.)
  29. Artem Popov
    Artem Popov April 4 2018 10: 25
    0
    Quote: krpmlws
    . The mechanisms for selecting applicants for team positions have been lost.

    The main reason is the system of years of service in the navy, because of which each officer, even the headquarters, had to send a certain qualification in order to get an increase. As a result, a huge queue was formed and a constant rotation of completely redundant people who came to the ships only with a new hook.
    This is the main reason for what happened in the Navy.
  30. Artem Popov
    Artem Popov April 4 2018 10: 54
    0
    Quote: krpmlws
    It should be noted that the local wars Khalkhin-Gol and Finnish played a crucial role in the future victory over Nazi fascism, if there were not these wars, the outcome of the war could be completely different.

    Oh really, without aggression on a peaceful Finnish neighbor and border provocation (the Mongols moved the borders from the Khalkhin-Gol river deep into Manchurian territory according to an allegedly old map, although Outer Mongolia was a part of China before 1911 and there was no state border at all was, and the general rule says about passing the border along the riverbed, which the Japanese adhered to)
  31. Artem Popov
    Artem Popov April 4 2018 15: 42
    0
    Quote: Cristall
    Do not forget that the Yapi could start the war only by taking a loan from the USA! The loan was completely spent in England (per fleet)

    What kind of nonsense are you talking about ... The fleet was built on Qing reparation payments following the results of the Sino-Japanese war.
  32. Artem Popov
    Artem Popov April 4 2018 15: 54
    -1
    Quote: brn521
    Here is the same "Varangian", for example. He did not give up and became a historical example for the fleets of the whole world. But on closer inspection, what was he doing? He took a slow-moving “Korean” with him and swam to a previously losing battle with superior forces. What for? To show that the Russians just do not give up. A good target, but the result is predictable, the cruiser is lost. With the same success, it could be flooded immediately

    The combat losses were significant and their influence was exaggerated by Rudnev, which is confirmed not only by the words of the Talbot commander, who examined the Varyag after the battle, but also by the meticulous report of the Japanese on the ship raised after 3 months. Rudnev overestimated the number of projectiles alone by 3 times, attributing a lot of hits to himself and exaggerating the damage to the cruiser (supposedly the reverse turn was caused by damage to the communication cable of the telegraph, but the Japanese did not find these "damage) - and so on, he covered his ass from the tribunal to the full.
    So the battle was “for show”, so as not to be fooled at all. And the intensity of the battle was no. At the same time, Asama fired a maximum of 1-2 cruisers of rank 2 (different).
    1. goga13
      goga13 April 6 2019 11: 57
      0
      The author is well done. Let's not forget that Japan requested peace negotiations because, having exhausted its resources, it could not continue to wage war. And Witte stole our victory.
      1. goga13
        goga13 April 6 2019 12: 01
        0
        The combat losses were significant and their influence was exaggerated by Rudnev, which is confirmed not only by the words of the Talbot commander, who examined the Varyag after the battle, but also by the meticulous report of the Japanese on the ship raised after 3 months. Rudnev overestimated the number of projectiles alone by 3 times, attributing a lot of hits to himself and exaggerating the damage to the cruiser (supposedly the reverse turn was caused by damage to the communication cable of the telegraph, but the Japanese did not find these "damage) - and so on, he covered his ass from the tribunal to the full.
        So the battle was “for show”, so as not to be fooled at all. And the intensity of the battle was no. At the same time, Asama fired a maximum of 1-2 cruisers of rank 2 (different).

        Why do we believe the reports of the enemy and do not believe our reports. Did the Japanese do the same? It is necessary to imprison for these utterances that others would not be disgraced, for in these lines there is a destructive
  33. boris epstein
    boris epstein 21 March 2020 16: 20
    0
    Personnel error of Nicholas II. Not Rozhestvensky, but Stepan Osipovich Makarov had to be appointed the flagship of the 2nd squadron. With a mine cruiser (in fact, a merchant ship, a base for torpedo boats), Grand Duke Constantine terrorized the Turkish armored squadron. He was the author of work on fleet tactics (Reflections on naval tactics). With a GREAT delay, he was appointed flagship of the 1st Pacific Squadron in Port Arthur, already weakened by a surprise night attack by the Japanese. But Makarov warned about such a beginning of the war. During the short period of command of the squadron, he managed to teach her to leave the harbor in one high water (high tide), to shoot at squares, to establish repairs of ships (mainly for his own money). The 1st Pacific Squadron would probably have canceled the need to send the 2nd Squadron and would have changed the course of the war. Another mistake of Nicholas II. The viceroy of the Tsar in the Far East was Admiral Alekseev, the illegitimate son of Alexander III. He was older than Makarov both in rank and seniority and put a spoke in his wheels.