Military Review

Chimera normanism

8
Chimera normanism



This year marks the 1150 anniversary of the Russian state. In 862, several Slavic and Finnish tribes called Prince Rurik with the Vikings-Russia from across the sea, and a dynasty began that managed to create a great power. But in the works of foreign historians and domestic "Westerners" XVIII - XIX centuries. these events were overgrown with eloquent comments: Scandinavian Vikings came to Russia, brought it the foundations of civilization and laid the foundation of statehood itself. And before the Vikings in our land, nothing worthy of attention could be. Some tribes lived - with just this one word the image of savages in animal skins immediately suggests itself.

This theory, called Normanism, prevailed in pre-revolutionary Russia, migrated to Soviet science. Abroad, it is still recognized as indisputable. Yes, and in the domestic literature has developed such a strong stereotype that it turns out to be extremely difficult to destroy.

Although statehood on the territory of our country existed since ancient times. Even Herodotus and other Greek authors described the mighty Scythian kingdom. It has now been unequivocally proven that its members included pre-Slavs. And they were in Scythia is not powerless slave people. Archeology shows that the villages of the Dnieper and Bug farmers were not fenced in, the Scythians were not enemies for them. The Proto-Slavs acted as their allies, divided military booty on an equal footing - in the same villages many trophies were found from campaigns in Transcaucasia, Assyria, and the Middle East. Many Greek coins and products were also found: farmers had the opportunity to sell products for export.
In the II. BC. Great Scythia perished, but in the south of present-day Russia the kingdoms of Yazygs, Roksolans, Alans, Crimean Scythia arose. And at the turn of our era began large-scale resettlement of the Slavs, the Romans called them Wends. They occupied Central Europe, the Carpathian region, the southern coast of the Baltic - on the Roman maps this sea was designated as the Gulf of Vened. And in the Baltic, the ancient authors noted quite developed states: the hereditary power of the “kings”, strong fleets, state arsenals, from where the population in the event of war received weapon.

Tradition says that in I c. land of the future Russia visited St. Apostle Andrew the First Called. He founded Christian communities in the Crimea, climbed the Dnieper, blessed the place where Kiev will arise, saw the steam baths of Novgorodians and was surprised by them, and then returned to Rome through the Baltic Sea. Usually this legend is perceived skeptically. But if you look at it, then ... there is nothing incredible about it. Of course, Veliky Novgorod did not exist yet. But in the Crimea, the city of Naples-Scythian flourished, Naples in translation - Novgorod. There were steam baths in it, they were found during excavations. The waterway through the Dnieper and Volkhov already operated. To sail across the Baltic Sea was real, it was plied by Venetian ships. And the cities of Wends were major centers of international trade, Roman merchants went here to buy precious amber.

In the II. the Baltic states of the Vandals, rugovs (they are the Rus, dew, ruthenes) and others were crushed by the Germans-Goths. Part of the Russes retreated to the Black Sea coast, united with local Slavs and Roksolans Sarmatians. A lot of data, archaeological and written, shows that they have a common state. It was loose, short-lived, and in the III. Goths defeated him. The conquerors have created a huge empire. Among other peoples, subjects of the Gothic kings were the Finnish Chud tribes, all of them. That is, the territory of Central and North-Western Russia also entered the empire. Some Slavic tribes became allies ready, together with them attacked the Romans. Others were conquered.

Roman chronicles mention the Russian emigre prince at the court of Constantine the Great. And in the IV. the aliens from the east, the Huns, fell on the ready, and the prince of the Rosomon people (translated as "people grew"), as contemporaries noted, crossed over to their side. Most of the other Slavic tribes also supported the enemies of their enslavers. Goths suffered a crushing defeat, Huns replaced their empire. King Balamber was pleased with the Slavs, under his auspices a tribal union of the Ants was formed. They maintained internal self-government, the historians of that era called the Antsky prince Bus and the elders executed by the rebellious Gothic king Amal Vinitar.

Nomadic Huns in many ways adopted Slavic culture. Byzantine ambassadors described the capital of Attila, lying somewhere on the Dnieper, a beautiful city with typical Slavic wooden architecture, carved palaces, and towers. They also brought Hun words - “honey”, “kvass”, “strava” (commemoration). In the middle of the 5th century, after the death of Attila, his state fell apart in cruel wars. From this time on, the Slavs became the immediate neighbors of Byzantium, and on a wide distance they reached its borders.

The Byzantine descriptions of their lives reflected clear evidence of state organization: the hierarchy of the nobility, the administrative division. “Tsars” are mentioned - tribal princes, above them were “kings” or “kings” - the leaders of large associations. The rule of the princes was supplemented by the institution of the veche, of general gatherings where the most important issues were resolved. The principality of Antes reached a particularly high level. They had developed agriculture, there were quite large cities.

They were protected by powerful ramparts, wooden walls and palisades. They housed the residence of the rulers, military guards, artisans lived and worked. For example, in the Pastoral Settlement, blacksmiths made iron, made braids, sickles, and shovels. Nearby were workshops potters, jewelers, gunsmiths. The warriors had wonderful weapons, chain mail, helmets. Characteristic for Ants are long straight swords of the highest quality. In archeology, they gave the name to a whole class of similar items, “Antsky type swords”. Even in the Anglo-Saxon poem "Beowulf" heroes fight Antsky swords, the best for that time.

Wait for 300 for years, until the Vikings come and teach something useful, the Slavs had nothing to do. Because guests from the west could not teach them anything, but nearby lay Byzantium - the center of advanced culture of that era. Antiya maintained strong ties with her, was her ally. Ants troops acted as part of the Byzantine army, Ants garrison stood in the Greek city of Tiras on the Dniester.

In the VI. Antiya fell under the blows of the Avar Kaganate. He crushed and terrorized the tribes, which were within his reach, and there were massive relocations of the Slavs. Some of them moved to the Balkans. Far Slovenes, Krivichi, Polochans left to the north, Vyatichi and Radimichi to the east. And in the VII century. the power of the Avar Kaganate was undermined, it began to crumble, and the obstacle hindering the development of the Slavs disappeared. They occupied a dominant position in Central and Eastern Europe.

The chain of their principalities stretched along the southern coast of the Baltic. At the foot of the Jutland Peninsula were located possessions of encouragement. Near lay the country vagrov. Still east - rugy. Pomeranians lived from Oder to Vistula. And between them and the Lithuanians - the Prussians. On the territory of modern Germany from Laba (Elbe) to Havel and Spree lived lutichi. To the south of them lay the Lusatians. The current Poland was divided among themselves by Mazovshans, Poles, Wisels, Slovinians.

Czechs, Moravians, Pannonians lived in Central Europe; Serbs, Croats, and Khorutans settled in the Balkans. And in Eastern Europe settled peoples known to us from the annals. On the Volkhov - Slovene. From Pskov Lake to Smolensk - Krivichi. In Belarus - Polochans, Dregovichi. In the Carpathian region - white Croats. In Western Ukraine - Volhynians. On the Dniester, the Tevertsy, on the Southern Bug, the streets. In Polesie - Drevlyane. In the Dnieper - clearing, Radici, on the Desna and Oka - Vyatichi. And to the east of the field, from the Dnieper to the Don, were the edges of the northerners.

Only it is necessary to take into account that these names denoted not just tribes, but states, and in their level they were in no way inferior to other European countries. Among the Eastern Slavs, the Arabs singled out the three most powerful states: Cuiabá, Arasania, and Slavia. Cuiabá - Kiev, the principality of the field, Slavia - the word with the center in Ladoga (Novgorod did not exist yet). Arasania is supposedly the princedom of the northerners. Persian manuscript beginning of the IX. She told about the social order of the glades: “One part of them is knighthood. The priests are respected by them. People annually pay the government a ninth of their income and trading profits. The city of Cuiabá is the seat of the king ... ” As we see, there were both the government and the nobility, clearly defined taxes were collected.

Ibn-Ruste wrote about the Vyatichas: “Their head, which they call the head of the chapters, is called“ Holy Malik ”among them. And he is above supanage, and supanage is his vicar. ” "Malik" in Arabic "king." Obviously, the title sounded like a "bright prince." And “supanedzh” - zupan. Voivode, who headed the zupu, clan clan. In the state of encouragement, the state was a federation, it included rarog, waranga and a number of tribes, they had their own princes, and at the head of the union stood the grand duke. The Germans respectfully called him "the king", and the tribal princes "dukes". The similar device was at Lyutich, northerners.

In Central Europe, the Czech, Velikomoravskoe, Pannonian principality, in the Balkans, Khorut. A part of the nomadic Bulgarians, defeated by the Khazars, united the local Slavs around them, and the Bulgarian kingdom appeared, in terms of culture and population, the Slavic one. Various sources mention the princes of the Drevlyane, Dregovichi, streets. Princes Pomoryan produced their kind from one of the sons of Attila - the dynasty existed for about 500 years! In Sloven even longer, their princes were descended from the Antean prince Bus.

Sometimes there are misunderstandings - but where are the Rus, who gave the name of our country and people? In the hodgepodge of relocations, they were divided into several parts. Some remained on the Baltic - tribes rarogov, rugiyev, Prussians. Others settled in Austria, there was a small kingdom, and subsequently the Austrian dukes conducted their descent from the "Russian kings". Another branch joined the Slovens. And the fourth settled on the Don and the Donets, joined the tribal union of the northerners. Various sources mention here the Rus from the middle of the 6th century. In alliance with the Khazars, they stopped the Arab expansion to the north, raided the Transcaucasus. Chinese diplomats saw Russian ambassadors at the court of the Turkic kagan. Bavarian geographer beginning of IX. He listed various branches of the Rus - “attros”, “viliros”, “casts”, “hozirosy”. He considered two of them to be the main ones, the Baltic and the southern. And the Persian geographer Ibn-Hordabeg explained that “the Ruses are a tribe of Slavs”.

Slavic civilization, still in paganism, reached its highest peak for its era. The large and rich cities of Arkona, Zverin (Schwerin), Volin, Rarog (Rerik), Starigrad (Oldenburg), Michelin, Dimin, Kodansk (Gdansk), Ratibor (Ratzenburg), Branibor (Brandenburg), Retra, Prague, Velehrad, Krakow grew , Gnezdno, Ladoga, Kiev, Chernihiv, Smolensk, Polotsk. Archaeologists have discovered the remains of fortifications, the sanctuary, the streets already at that time were equipped with wooden pavements. Warriors, skilled blacksmiths, potters, casters, bone-cutters, jewelers, and weavers lived in these cities. During the excavation of their products come across, expensive imported items. Germanic authors reported on the "civil rights" of the Slavs, on the urban aristocracy.

But the Slavic principalities were not the same. Someone entered into alliances, someone fought among themselves. As a result, the northerners, the clearing, the Vyatichi, the Radimichi fell under the rule of the Khazars. And in the Baltic at the end of the VIII century. roam the Vikings. They descended and in Ladoga, defeated Prince Burivoi, laid a tribute to the words, Krivichi, Finnish tribes Chud, all Meryan. But to talk about some of their cultural and educational mission would be simply ridiculous. Just look at the list of the leaders of the Scandinavian flotillas at least: Skull Breaker, Viper, Insidious, Bloody Clearyon, Bryuhotryas, Robber, Pig, Flayer, Sewing Beard, Pyro. They were ordinary robbers, and they were interested only in profit.

Slavs and Finns did not tolerate them for long. The uprising rose under the leadership of the son of Burivoya Gostomysl, the Vikings expelled. And the tribes involved in the war of liberation united in an alliance. Apparently, just the state of Gostomysl received the name of the Russian Kaganate, it was known both in Byzantium and in Germany. Relations with the Baltic Slavic principalities, especially with encouragement, were also strengthened. A comparison of the Novgorod chronicles, German chronicles and legends shows that Godomyub, the prince of the rarogi tribe, who were part of the federation of encouragement, Gostomysl married his daughter Umilu. Rarog belonged to the largest port on the Baltic, Rerik, friendship with them was very important for trade.

A lot of information from German historians came to us about the encouragement. The king of the Franks, Pepin the Short, and the Emperor Charlemagne maintained a strong alliance with this principality, together they fought against the Saxons and Lyutichs. The Franks called their "Slavs" encouraged. But in 808, they were attacked by the Danish king Gottfried, who attracted the Lutichs. The defeated Grand Duke encouraged Drazhko fled and was killed. The Danes took Rerik, captured and hanged Godolub, who defended the city.

All data agree on the fact that Rurik, the future ruler of Russia, was precisely the son of Godolub and Umila. Perhaps it was named after the deceased city and falcon rarog, the totem of the tribe. It is not known how and where the prince's childhood passed. In 826, the brothers Harald and Rurik appeared at the court of the emperor Louis the Pious. They were baptized, they promised support. But the empire of the Franks was already falling apart, strife began in it. And for orphans and outcasts in the Baltic opened a direct road to the Vikings or the Vikings. These terms denoted not nationality, but occupation: free warriors, pirates or mercenaries. Their ranks were replenished with bold men of different nationalities, and the Varangians were already known to no less than their Scandinavian colleagues. They took impregnable Seville, ruined even Sweden and Denmark.

Rurik moved among the most skilled and successful Varangian leaders. Squadrons under his command were firmly noted in France, Spain, England, Germany. Based on the achieved authority and accumulated wealth, in 853 - 854, he tried to win back his father's principality. At first it was a success, but the Danes still overpowered.

And at the same time, important events took place in Ladoga. Ghostomysl died without direct heirs. His power fell apart, the tribes fought among themselves. Neighbors did not fail to take advantage. Meryan conquered the Khazars. And from the sea in 852, the Danish Vikings descended, taking a lot of wealth home. In 854, the Swedish prince Erik pogrom and laid a tribute to the Slovenian neighbors: kurov, estov and finns.

Danger made forget squabbles. The elders are Sloven, Rus, Krivich, Chud, started talking again to unite. Decided: "We will look for the prince's seb, the ilk owned us and ryadil us by right". That is, to rule and judge in justice. But where to look for such a prince? The Nikon Chronicle reports that several proposals were voiced: "Either from us, or from Kazar, or from Polian, or from Dunaychev, or from Varyag." In the discussions won the option "from the Varyag", the candidacy of Rurik. She was optimal in all respects. Rurik was the grandson of Gostomysl on a daughter line, a famous warrior, his name thundered in the Baltic. And besides, he was an outcast. Prince without principality! I had to completely associate myself with the new homeland.

This is how the “vocation of the Vikings” took place. Rurik arrived in Ladoga with the squads of the motley Vikings and “with all his kind” - the emigrants who were gone with him. And I must say, the elders were not mistaken in their choice. The founder of the dynasty conducted a victorious war with the Khazars, took away the lands of the merians and moromlyans from them, the cities of Rostov and Moore. He started the “grads of the stakes”, strengthening the borders. And finally, Russia became the only country that had access to the sea, which never again knew the invasions of the Vikings, which at that time terrified all of Europe.

And it should be noted: the subsequent dispute between the Normanists and the Antinormanists turned out to be in general ... sucked from the finger. Both abroad and in Russia for a long time they remembered where the “Varang-Rus” were called from. The Germans in the X century. Titled Grand Duchess Olga "Queen of Rugs." In the XVI century. Ivan the Terrible mentioned that the dynasty of Rurikovich originates from the legendary Prussus - from which the princes of the Baltic Slavs originated. And in the XVIII century. The notorious associate of Peter I, Alexander Menshikov, concocted a false ancestry, where his clan was produced "from encouragement."

Do you think that Menshikov really knew who such people were encouraged? Yes, he was illiterate. And the principality of encouragement finally disappeared in 500 years before it, conquered by the Germans. It is unlikely that the clerk, who composed a pedigree for the prince, heard about it either. He simply worked through the order to be “more cognizant”, writing off the most ancient aristocratic families from the genealogies. When Menshikov was tried, he was remembered of this point, the prosecution indicated that "many noble births produce themselves from encouragement."

But in the XVIII century. ancient traditions have already broken. Boyar class abolished, pedigrees depreciated and forgotten. The records kept in the libraries of monasteries were taken away by scientists and amateurs, lost, died. And respected German professors came to Russia and out of nowhere created the theory of Normanism. Obodritov, Rugiyev, Pomoryan and other Baltic Slavs have not been around for a long time, and nobody bothered to recall them - the learned professors had no idea about them. Therefore, they began to identify the "Varyag-Rus" with anyone, just not with the Russians. Although no Scandinavian and Germanic tribe with the name "Rus" in stories does not appear.

Yes, and modern Western scientists are not far from their predecessors. As a proof, let us say, a quotation from the Tale of Time Years: “Sica boraz you Varag-Rus, as friends are called pee, ourmani, Angliana, Inia and Goth, tacos.” Hence the conclusion: along with the “Varangians-Rus”, the Swedes (all), the Norwegians (Normans), the British, the Goths are named. There are no only Danes - it means that “Russia” is what they are. Well, it remains only to sympathize with such historians, since they do not know that in the 9th c. there were no Englishmen at all, and the Angles were one of the tribes that inhabited Denmark. Obviously, they do not know that a significant part of present-day Germany was occupied by those who died in the 12th - 13th centuries. Slavic states. But do not get tired to pour out comments about the culture and statehood brought to the Slavs from the West. In short, this is an extremely vivid and characteristic example of how truth can be buried under streams of “scientific” waste paper.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.zavtra.ru/content/view/himeryi-normanizma/
8 comments
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  1. Gorinich
    Gorinich 29 May 2014 09: 58
    +4
    The fact that the history of Kievan Rus can begin with Rurik undoubtedly. Only the author has somewhat not disclosed the topic WHY and WHO invited Rurik specifically.
    1. Why. There is no doubt the presence of states on the territory under discussion even before the advent of Rurik. There is mention of a great internecine war. Those. on the territory of Russia there was another civil war. And I needed a candidate who was authoritative but did not participate in the feuds.
    2. Who. Relatives, this is certain. But to invite a distant relative, even a princely family, is just to find support among the ruling classes. However, it’s going to take place. Only a person of the same PEOPLE could invite.
    If we pay attention to Polab Russia, then exactly at that time the genocide of the Slavs began. Waves of emigration to the east went one after another.
    1. Lapotnik
      Lapotnik 29 May 2014 10: 40
      -2
      How all these speculations were shaken - not only about who invited whom and where, but also expressions - "another internecine war." They fought straight for life, so much so that the cities were burned, but "they invited a relative" and the hop - and the city was immediately restored, or built from scratch and everything became cool.

      You should first decide on the status of Rurik, and then an understanding of the misfortune of the theory of "internecine wars" will come.
      1. Gorinich
        Gorinich 29 May 2014 12: 58
        +5
        I do not quite understand your comment ... Do you think that civil wars at that time could not be?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. fyvaprold
      fyvaprold 31 May 2014 12: 58
      0
      Quote: Gorinich
      The fact that the history of Kievan Rus can begin with Rurik

      Kievan Rus - yes. But before Kievan Rus, the Old Russian state of Gardariki existed - the Land of Grads (cities, not MLRS) laughing ).
  2. aksai61
    aksai61 29 May 2014 10: 13
    +3
    The article is essentially a film by M. Zadorny "Rurik. Lost reality."
    1. ivankursk46
      ivankursk46 29 May 2014 23: 52
      -3
      This film is a very "reliable" source.
  3. okunevich_rv
    okunevich_rv 29 May 2014 10: 17
    +14
    I express my gratitude to the author for his work, however, according to historical facts, it is necessary to make a reference to a historical document, then even norman-dependent historians will be silent in a rag, and without it
    can pour a tub of dirt on the author.
  4. Free Island
    Free Island 29 May 2014 10: 40
    +5
    well, however, here it’s che .... as I understand it, if now we unite all our relatives-Slavs, from whom we descended, it will become closely to the rest of the world on earth, huh :))) and by the way drew attention to , how did the temporary kings relate to the Slavs)))) they loved, gave independence .. but what does not it remind? it is on this principle that our ancestors in the future built the HUGE MULTIPLICATION STATE of Russia WITH MANY CULTURES, PEOPLES, TRADITIONS))))) something like that))
  5. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 10: 43
    +6
    In general, a very, very adequate picture, I would also like something similar in the textbooks ...
  6. alebor
    alebor 29 May 2014 11: 15
    +2
    The further you go back centuries, the less historical documents you have, the more room for imagination. If we take, for example, the history of the 19th century, then it’s hard to fantasize, since almost all the events are documented, everything can be easily checked and double-checked based on numerous sources. But with regard to IX one can already compose a lot of things and, most importantly, it is difficult to refute these fantasies, since there are too few written facts and data. And if you dig even deeper into 500 for years, then here, besides a few shards of broken night pots and a handful of burnt firebrands, we often don’t have anything at all and here you can compose stories indefinitely, like Tolkien to build whole worlds, telling how the Slavs, along with the elves and the hobbits, beat the evil orcs and other goblins.
    In general, historians believe that Russian chronicles are reliable starting somewhere in the XI century, and everything that was before is a mixture of real historical events with all kinds of legends, so it’s not always easy to figure out where it is true and where fiction is. Well, if the described event is confirmed by other independent sources. And if not? This is where all kinds of hypotheses and fantasies begin.
    1. SkiF_RnD
      SkiF_RnD 29 May 2014 22: 45
      +1
      In general, historians believe that Russian chronicles are reliable starting somewhere in the XI century, and all that was earlier
      In general, historians do not consider authentic annals after the 11th century. Not a single companion, only copies.
  7. muginov2015
    muginov2015 29 May 2014 11: 34
    +1
    everything is debatable. For example, the Goths did not form a state — it was an intertribal alliance, the word is Med Gothic, and not Hun. Oh, and by the way, the last village with a Gothic population and speaking Gothic was cut out in Crimea only 150 years ago by the Crimean Tatars without exception.
  8. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 11: 39
    +1
    And actually, who has doubts that the overall picture is adequate, let's discuss ...
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 11: 42
      +2
      Oh, Oleg, I’m afraid we don’t have enough discussion, on this topic specialists have been gnawing at the throats of dr.
  9. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 11: 46
    +1
    SW muginov2015-Ok, but I think there are comments here to express opinions, there were comments to the aftor, that there are few links .... as I understand it, I meant the arguments FOR they can be exchanged ...
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 02
      0
      pzh-that, Oleg. Offhand memory three authors, three opinions:
      Sea secrets of the other Slavs S. Dmitrienko
      Aryan Rus. A. Burovsky.
      The primary sources of Russ. Yu. Petukhov
      1. Oleg1
        Oleg1 29 May 2014 12: 06
        +1
        SW muginov2015, in what specifically do you disagree with the author with the arguments of the counter ... The current history textbooks also paint a completely different picture ...
  10. VD chauvinist
    VD chauvinist 29 May 2014 11: 46
    +3
    The legends of bygone days shed light on modern science. The studies of Professor A. Klyosov prove the Slavic origin of Rurik (Rörech, Rorik - not the essence). You can’t argue with genetics.
    And archeolinguistics only confirms this. Rugen is an island of rugs.
    We still use the verb "to scold" in everyday life, that is, to speak with someone from a position of strength, in an imperative mood, or to give verbal "lyuly".
    According to many sources, the rugs are a "princely tribe". From them, many Slavic tribes and tribal unions accepted "top managers" - people who know how to fight, trade, manage.
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 07
      +1
      SW Vladimir, tell me, how magically did Prof Klesov have the genetic material (bones, I believe) of Rurik himself?
      1. Oleg1
        Oleg1 29 May 2014 12: 16
        +3
        SW muginov2015-but that the genetic material of his descendants is easy enough to obtain, I hope you agree? And yet, what do you disagree with? And why?
        1. muginov2015
          muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 21
          -1
          SW Oleg, do you reliably know the kinship line of the Ruriks, his modern descendants, or the burial places of his children, grandchildren and relatives?
          1. Oleg1
            Oleg1 29 May 2014 12: 32
            +1
            SW muginov2015, Do you want to prove the PRINCIPAL not the ability to determine what was there in the depths of the past years?
            "So," Rurikovich ", namely the princes, members of the Russian Noble Assembly who consider themselves Rurikovich, in fact, have two main haplogroups - R1a and N1c1."
            http://pereformat.ru/2013/02/ryurikovichi/
            As for not sliding to the ancient UKRAM, I agree, but I also think it is necessary to "wash" history from superficial and falsehood, our history, which is common with Ukrainians and Belarusians. And the author as a whole is quite adequate ...
            1. muginov2015
              muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 58
              0
              So, "Rurikovich", namely the princes, members of the Russian Noble Assembly ...
              RYUNEMOGU Mikhalkov, too, if I remember correctly, managed such a stamp paper for himself. But, as far as I know, the Rurik family was cut off on Ivan the Terrible. Regrettably.
              ... in fact, they have two main haplogroups - R1a and N1c1.
              You will be surprised, but all the other Slavs (not members of the RDS) also have them, so this is not proof
              By the way, 98% of the Volga Tatars also have them with a small percentage deviation. But what is more surprising, they also have a haplogroup common with the French, though I don’t remember which one.
              1. Oleg1
                Oleg1 29 May 2014 13: 27
                0
                SW muginov2015, so R1a is considered to be a Slavic marker, haplogroup N1c1 - in this case, South Baltic. Rurikovich are either carriers of the haplogroup R1a, Slavs, or carriers of the South Baltic, Slavic branch of the haplogroup N1c1.
                see detailed argumentation http://pereformat.ru/2013/02/ryurikovichi/
                1. muginov2015
                  muginov2015 29 May 2014 13: 38
                  +1
                  Oleg, you don’t hear me, I wanted to say that I can make myself a paper with seals assuring that I am a direct descendant of, say, Khan Girey, but I have no desire due to the lack of bloated conceit and the presence of modesty combined with sanity . Therefore, I believe that the presence of paper is not evidence of a noble origin.
                  1. Oleg1
                    Oleg1 29 May 2014 13: 51
                    +1
                    SW muginov2015, at least some kind of paper can be made, BUT there are a number of genera that have no historians questioned the origin from Rurik, in particular according to prof. Klesova:
                    -Who has the haplogroup R1a? The most serious candidates for the Rurikovich are a group of four - Prince Obolensky, Prince Volkonsky, Pentecost / Volkonsky, Prince Baryatinsky.
                    -the prince of haplogroup N1c1 - Shakhovsky, Massalsky, Rzhevsky, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Koribut-Voronetsky.
                    In general, follow the link, I can’t tell you in a nutshell the results and the course of a large study.
                    1. wax
                      wax 29 May 2014 23: 27
                      0
                      These Rurikovich - a dime a dozen, even Pushkin and Leo Tolstoy - they are. And here is http://russia-today.narod.ru/past/des_rur/des.htm
    2. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 13: 20
      0
      By the way, there is a lot of interesting research proving that Rügen is the legendary Buyan Island (remember at Pushkin about Tsar Dodon?) and therefore a small Russian principality.
      1. Oleg1
        Oleg1 29 May 2014 13: 28
        0
        I didn’t doubt what you said, but which one?
        1. muginov2015
          muginov2015 29 May 2014 13: 39
          0
          here it is necessary to dig tyrnet, honestly, I do not remember.
  11. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 29 May 2014 11: 57
    +5
    We need to know and defend our thousand-year history.
    And I remind you of Europe ... those who she thinks are highly measured as barbarians taught everything to everything ... for example, Arabs taught to wash their hands before eating ... use a handkerchief ... use cutlery ... In ancient times, they kept the body clean using bathhouses (while in Europe they stifled the stench with spirits) .... And much more was given by the whole Educated and Cultural World ... to Little Europe.
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 10
      +1
      These are generally recognized facts confirmed by source documents. Nobody argues with this. The conversation here is a little about another, please read the article carefully.
  12. muginov2015
    muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 13
    +2
    The whole hitch is that we have in our hands the only earliest authentic document, "The Tale of Bygone Years" by Nestor, proved 9-10 centuries. And what was earlier, alas, conjectures, hypotheses.
  13. parusnik
    parusnik 29 May 2014 12: 17
    +3
    Excavations were carried out in the village of Golubitskaya, Temryuk district, Krasnodar Territory in the year 1981, following the results of these excavations, there was a large article in the newspaper Izvestia, already on two pages ... the expedition leader argued that if the excavations continue ... then you have to review all theories from where there is and went the Russian Land .. And that is typical, since then excavations were no longer carried out ..
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 30
      +2
      Such excavations, as a result of which people cut a career and make outcasts full, which once again proves how politics writes history
  14. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 12: 19
    +1
    SW parusnik, curious, and what kind of article?
  15. muginov2015
    muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 27
    0
    guys, read my first comment. I didn’t disagree about anything, personally I am very impressed by Zadornov with his healthy patriotism, but the argumentation is not enough, how many authors, so many opinions, but the truth is somewhere nearby. Here I brought to your attention a number of authors , mb. someone is familiar, if not, I strongly recommend. If we are guided by - "we are the coolest", it is not far to the Ukrainians with their "ancient tribe ukrov" from which all people went.
  16. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 12: 33
    0
    For any, as regards the Scandinavian origin of Rurik-she in general (argumentation 0 does not stand up to criticism ....
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 12: 45
      +1
      here I probably agree. There is undoubted evidence that at that time the Baltic states were settled by the Slavs
  17. nnz226
    nnz226 29 May 2014 12: 58
    0
    About the Normans: if in the 10-12 centuries all of Europe prayed for her salvation from the invasion of the Normans, then in Russia it was considered good form to hit the road to the Scandinavians, clean their faces, rob them for pleasure, and return home with worthy booty !!! So people with a full muzzle would not be allowed to reign !!! Bushkov has a good description of the history of the Golden Gate in the St. Sophia Cathedral in Novgorod. Right from there! True, the Estonians were driving the Normans at that time, but since the Chukhons could do it, and then the Novgorodians robbed the winners, then the Normans "were clearly not in authority" in Russia!
    1. muginov2015
      muginov2015 29 May 2014 13: 08
      +2
      I do not advise accepting Bushkov’s works as historical truth. I will make a reservation, while I consider him a wonderful writer.
  18. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 29 May 2014 14: 42
    +3
    The author initially set a trap for himself, mentioning the PRA-Slavs "...Even Herodotus and other Greek authors described the powerful Scythian kingdom. Now it is unequivocally proved that its members included the Slavs ...
    A typical attempt by many newly-minted "historians" to expand the historical area of ​​settlement and appearance of the Slavs, when it is clear from the context that the mentioned "...Pagans, Roxolans, Alans... "and Kasogs, as well as the Wends and Antes, if they were involved in the appearance of the Slavs, then there are no such traces left.
    And "writing history" based on GUESS is not serious, at least. With the same success one can call the current inhabitants of Egypt the descendants of the Proto-Egyptians, the Italians - the descendants of the Proto-Romans ...
    And no one will raise a hand to call the Greeks the direct descendants of the Hellenes ...
    In a word, there is a desire of the author to become like the ancient chronicler, the author of the "Tale of Bygone Years ..." with an attempt to "hold out" the relationship of the Slavs to the tribe of Japhetov ... fellow
  19. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 29 May 2014 14: 57
    0
    Well, what would happen if Russia did not accept Orthodoxy, and pagan supporters would win, such as Prince Svyatoslav, who, after returning from defeat from the Byzantines from Dorostol, sent an order to Kiev to burn the churches and promised to “exterminate” everyone upon return Russian Christians. Apparently, Kiev from a rich and cultural city would turn into a castle of a robber knight like Bran Bran (now Brandenburg) or a base of pirates with the cult of Svyatovit, as was the case on the island of Ruge (now Rügen). But then the fate of the Western Slavs would have befallen the Rus: the Lutichs, Bodrichs and Pomeranians, who waged constant wars with neighbors and among themselves. For these brave Slavs, not only Germans and Danes, but all the neighbors were enemies, and you cannot live without friends. Therefore, they did not manage to form their own power, even having recaptured the Crusade in the 1147 year, the Western Slavs could not unite: the huts with the Cross Penins refused to submit to the bodricians. The Germans captured the Slavic lands: Berlin became Berlin, Lubech-Lubeck, Lipshin-Leipzig, etc. .. On the lands of the Bodriches, the Duchy of Mecklenburg arose, built into the structure of the Holy Roman Empire. Like the Germanization of the Pomeranian house in the east, the Slavic dynasty of the Niklotings / Niklotychs degenerated into typical German feudal lords. Slavic Slavic language is gradually replaced by German, especially in cities where paperwork required written German. Polabsky lingers in cities in certain social and professional marginal groups, for example among fishermen. On the island of Rugen, the Polabian disappears by the 15th century, and in the Venland region, the Draveno-Polab dialect existed until the 18th century.
  20. Andriuha077
    Andriuha077 29 May 2014 14: 58
    0
    Turkish version, no more.
    A pair of explicit pearls:
    "In the II century BC Great Scythia died, but in the south" - nothing has gone anywhere, everyone is alive, settled to the north. If only I could look at DNA research and excavations.
    "that in the 1st century the land of the future Rus was visited by the holy Apostle Andrew the First-Called. Founded" - it would seem that the sources about the Eastern Roman Empire (the Armenian kingdom, more precisely) are publicly available. What did he mark there in the XNUMXst century ??? And Moscow, by any chance, was not built by D. Dudayev's grandmother?
    lol Further worse. I will not read this murzilka.
  21. Oleg1
    Oleg1 29 May 2014 14: 59
    +1
    SW stalkerwalker, you deny the very concept of the Slavs. But agree this is not logical. Without a father, there can be no children. From my point of view, the appearance of NEVER HERE in central Europe many Slavic tribes is simply ridiculous. At the same time, a number of medieval chroniclers of both Russian and Polish and others associated the origin of the Slavs with the Scythians and Sarmatians. By the way, according to genetics, they are also R1a, which at least indicates a direct relationship ....
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 May 2014 16: 46
      +3
      You too, it seems to me, are trying to deceive the formal
      logic:
      1) Yes, undoubtedly there were pre-Slavs ("fathers").
      2) Yes, there were (in the same locality) Scythians and Sarmatians.
      3) From the first two facts in no way can be concluded
      that the great Slavs are Scythians or Sarmatians.
      To make such a conclusion, you need genetic material
      (from graves) or a comparison of artifacts (jewelry, tools
      labor) also from burials: a) Slavs b) Scythians c) Sarmatians.
      1. Oleg1
        Oleg1 29 May 2014 17: 06
        +1
        SW voyaka uh, but I agree, however, BUT:
        Slavs are the genetic descendants of the Scythians, for research see Art. prof. Klesova Who are the Scythians, who are their ancestors and descendants? Http: //pereformat.ru/2013/06/kto-takie-skify/ (the determining haplogroup of modern Russian and other Slavic peoples is the haplogroup R1a. Such a haplogroup is defined in the burials of the Scythians)
        -Slavs and Scythians had the same dwellings. During excavations in the Naples-Scythian Crimea (destroyed in 275 CE), archaeologists discovered that the Scythians lived here in houses with gable roofs, whose skates were decorated with carved wooden images of horse heads looking in different directions. Does this remind you of anything? Think about why the Russian language calls the top of the roof a ridge?
        The Slavs, like the Scythians, buried their dead relatives under the mounds. On them they celebrated a trident and laid the same list of objects with the dead. Moreover, in Ukraine, in Belgorod, Kursk and other regions of Russia, clusters of such mounds are known, the first of which are poured in 3 thousand BC, and the latter date from the time of the adoption of Christianity in Russia (47). That is, this process was continuous, continuous and the inhabitants of the Middle Ages considered the ancient burial mounds as a cemetery of their ancestors. Otherwise, they would not bury their relatives next to burials alien to them. There are even such mounds in which, to the Scythians, who died long before our era, they laid the newly-dead from the late Middle Ages. And this happened in those days when the Slavs already reliably lived in the Black Sea region.
        Anthropology (identical forms of skulls) and similar ceramics, and much more, which can be found in the works of modern authors, speak of the kinship of Scythians, Sarmatians and Slavs.
        In general, something like this ....
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 29 May 2014 21: 34
          +3
          Your facts are interesting.
          But there are other points of view. For example, it is known that the Sarmatians (like the Scythians)
          roamed, were horsemen, with a cult of horses. The Slavs are a settled people,
          built numerous cities and towns along river banks. Doesn't fit, somehow.
          Linguistics is also a problem. Many ancient place names
          Slavs end in "a", "sha". Which coincides with the names of the northwestern tribes,
          Great-great-greats, so to speak. That is, there is a strong probability that the great Slavs
          came from the north, and not from the Aryan lands, like the Sarmatians.
          In any case, all historians agree that the ancient Russia of 9-12 centuries was
          developed state, in no way inferior to the European.
          1. Oleg1
            Oleg1 30 May 2014 09: 43
            0
            SW voyaka uh, not everything is so simple, because according to Herodotus there were Scythians-Pahari, in whom the Pre-Slavs are often seen + history knows cases when peoples switched from a nomadic way of life to a settled one and back. As for the names, very many of them, especially in the north, are derived from Sanskrit, that is, from the language of the ancient Aryans ....
  22. klim717
    klim717 29 May 2014 15: 46
    +1
    "Yes, and by the way, the last
    a village with a Gothic population and
    gothic speaking was
    carved in Crimea only
    150 years ago Crimean
    Tatars without exception. "Was it during the Crimean War?
  23. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 29 May 2014 20: 40
    +3
    Quote: Oleg1
    You deny the very concept of the pre-Slavs.

    SW Oleg.
    It seems that you are the author of the article ... And I did not write this ... Do not misinterpret me.
    Let me explain.
    If I can’t trace my genealogy above the 3-4th knee, then I don’t record my entire city where I was born and grew up, like my parents and grandparents.
    And if, God forbid, African-Americans are in relatives, will I also attach the Sioux Indians?
    No documents - no reason to discuss.
    Speculation - from the category of fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
    1. Oleg1
      Oleg1 30 May 2014 09: 28
      0
      SW stalkerwalker
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      It seems that you are the author of the article ... And I did not write this ... Do not misinterpret me.

      No, I'm not the author of the article, but I have always been interested in history. As for the knowledge of origin, we modern people do not know their ancestors for more than 3-4 generations, before people knew 10-20 generations of their ancestors at least. But the fact that the Scythians were among the ancestors of the Slavs is also accepted by official science. I think, on the grounds of the above, they are the basis of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs.
  24. Lord_Raven
    Lord_Raven 29 May 2014 23: 23
    +2
    The article is interesting, but has a weak relationship to reality. Actually, classical Normanism in modern historical science does not play any role, but our publicists successfully continue to fight it stop
    1. Oleg1
      Oleg1 30 May 2014 09: 47
      +1
      Quote: Lord_Raven
      Actually, classical Normanism in modern historical science does not play any role, but our publicists successfully continue to fight it

      I don’t think so, look at the textbooks, they are thoroughly saturated with Normanism, for some reason, for example, the history of France is derived from Gauls who fought with the Romans, who have almost nothing to do with modern Frenchmen, neither language nor culture, and this is an occasion for the French to be proud of. And the history of Russia from Rurik, and before that there was supposedly savagery .....
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 30 May 2014 22: 33
        0
        Normanism neither in the Western nor in the Russian version speaks of cultural
        the superiority of the Viking Normans. On the contrary, they were barbarians in relation
        to the peoples of Western Europe and Russia. But militarily strong barbarians.
        Because of what they captured the city, or their squads were hired, or
        their commanders were invited to the "princes". The prince in those harsh times should have been
        a successful strong warrior, not a wise politician. Vikings came to strangers
        lands without their women, therefore, necessarily quickly mixed with the indigenous
        the population of those places and accepted their religion and culture. This happened in Russia.
  25. wax
    wax 29 May 2014 23: 49
    +2
    For the first time, Lomonosov made a criticism of Norman theory in 1749 in his remarks on G.-F. Miller on the "Origin of the name and people of Russia." He further developed these principles in The Brief Russian Chronicler and Ancient History.
    Norman theory denies the origin of the ancient Russian state as a result of internal socio-economic development. The Normanists associated the beginning of statehood in Russia with the moment the Varangians were called to reign in Novgorod and they conquered Slavic tribes in the Dnieper basin. They believed that the Varangians themselves, "of whom Rurik was with the brothers, were not a tribe and Slavic language ... they were Scandinavians, that is, Swedes." (Lomonosov. MSS, t.6)
    Lomonosov criticized all the main provisions of this concept of the genesis of Ancient Russia. The ancient Russian state, according to Lomonosov, existed long before the Varangians-Russians were called in the form of divided tribal unions and individual principalities.
    The cornerstone of the discussion, which began with a thesis by G.-Z. Bayer was
    the question is whether the Varangians called up by the Novgorodians were the genetic branch of one of the Slavic tribes or were they the Scandinavians. Lomonosov draws a sharp line not only between the Scandinavians and the Varangians-Russians, but also separates the Varangians as a social group from the Varangians-Russians. The latter circumstance usually fell outside the field of view of researchers, while it is of great scientific importance. The Varangians, Lomonosov believes, are not an ethnic, but a social group. He argues incorrectly, wrote Lomonosov, “who ascribes the Varangian name to one people. Many strong evidence assures us that they consisted of different tribes and languages, and they were united only by robberies common to the seas then. ”
    The Varangian-Russians, Lomonosov believes, is one of the Slavic tribes that lived on the east-south shores of the Varangian Sea between the Vistula and the Dvina. Therefore, it is not surprising that the Novgorodians turned to their Slavic neighbors.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 June 2014 15: 29
      0
      Lomonosov hypothesis about the Slavic origin of the Vyarig
      not considered convincing today. There are many arguments against.
      For example, the simplest is the names of princes. Why would the Slavs
      call your children the original Scandinavian names:
      Oleg / Olga, Igor ...? Compare with later Slavic
      by the names of the princes: Svyatoslav, Vladimir, Vsevolod.