Catch up and overtake

While the machine tool industry is preparing to become the flagship of qualitative changes in the monetary policy of the industrial sector of Russia, its participants enter their production in the "Red Book" of the country's technological competences

The Russian economy as a whole and its industry in particular once again demonstrate the negative dynamics of real growth rates, or the so-called zero prospects. About this in late April, said Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov. Probably, this year the market will experience a technical recession with all the ensuing consequences in terms of capital and direct investment. According to the results of the first quarter of 2014, the Ministry of Economic Development estimates GDP growth at the level of 0,8% compared to the same period last year. At the same time, the Russian industry grew in annual terms by slightly more than 1%, but compared to the fourth quarter of 2013, its decline amounted to 12,4%.

Economic Development Minister Alexei Ulyukayev could not make the market players happy, calling the country's economic situation unstable and pointing to an investment pause, which in the language of economic statistics means a nearly five percent reduction in capital investment in the first quarter of 2014 compared to the previous year. Probably the central link in this problem is the massive outflow of capital from the country, which by the beginning of April reached, by some estimates, 50,6 billion dollars. Nevertheless, the flight of capital that we observe is apparently another decisive step towards the largest all-Russian import substitution campaign in the last 70-80. According to Alexei Ulyukayev, the situation in industry is not so bad, which is explained by the increase in import substitution, including due to the weakening of the Russian ruble.

Unobtrusive regulation

So, the persons responsible for achieving the target indicators of the Russian industry are faced with a very difficult task: on the one hand, the economy stops growing, on the other - it is necessary to give a strong impetus to the domestic market, both to stimulate demand and to boost supply. It should not be forgotten that the economy is in a state of obvious stagflation, that is, the recession spiral is aggravated by rising inflation. At the end of 2014, the projected inflation rate will be 6,5-7%. Therefore, it is logical to expect the beginning of a new wave of neoclassical economic thinking, in particular monetarism, which turned out to be very effective in the medium term in the United States since the economic course of President Ronald Reagan (1980-1988 years).

However, as current monetary policy shows, the Russian economy is not yet ready for full-fledged deregulation. In particular, it concerns the rates on medium and long-term lending to industry and refinancing rates.

Since the second half of 2013, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia (the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation) is revising the program “Development of the domestic machine-tool industry and tool industry” adopted several years ago for 2011-2016 in favor of the Russian Federation’s Industry Development Program published earlier this year. and increase its competitiveness. Machine tool industry ”for 2012-2020 years. The total planned volume of funds allocated for all types of industry is 240,8 billion rubles. The goal of the program is to “create a competitive, sustainable, structurally balanced industry in Russia”. One of the basic investment goods program developers have called the machine tool industry products - for the development of this industry, an import substitution strategy was chosen: "reducing the dependence of Russian strategic organizations of machine-building and defense-industrial complexes on the supply of foreign technological tools."

However, unlike many cumbersome and non-specific programs, the above-mentioned measures to increase the investment attractiveness of the machine tool industry, presented by Denis Manturov, the Minister of Industry and Trade of Russia, are reduced to an extremely important step. It is about creating an industry development fund that will carry out targeted lending to industrial enterprises at a rate not higher than 5%. Instead of almost three-fold reduction in the cost of borrowed funds, the applicant companies will have to prove the investment feasibility of the projects for which they will ask for loans. Thus, as early as September 2013 of the year, at the meeting of the scientific coordination council for the machine tool industry development program, First Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade of Russia Gleb Nikitin noted: “Each project must, firstly, be confirmed by the demand of a specific customer, and secondly, must have a certain list of investors and a clear organizational structure. "

The fund in question will become a special credit program of VEB and the Ministry of Industry and Trade. Thus, VEB will be responsible for reviewing applications and examining projects, as well as for attracting additional financial resources and bringing them to the recipient. In addition, there is a proposal voiced by the Ministry of Industry and Trade on zeroing the federal part of the profit tax for the manufacturing industry. Such a measure can really significantly increase the investment attractiveness of industry enterprises whose profitability does not exceed 10%, and often amounts to 3-5%.

According to the Committee on Industrial Policy and Innovations of St. Petersburg, currently the Government of the Russian Federation Decree No. 3 of January 3 2014 has approved the Rules for the provision of subsidies from the federal budget to Russian organizations. As part of this resolution, it is planned to compensate part of the cost of paying interest on loans received from Russian credit institutions in 2014-2016 for the implementation of new comprehensive investment projects in priority areas of the civil industry under the state program subprogram. Petersburg enterprises, including from the machine-tool industry, are also involved in the implementation of this decree and the receipt of subsidies from the federal budget. In particular, LLC Kirov-Stankomash together with JSC Stankoprom are implementing an investment project for organizing the production of high-tech machine-tool equipment.

On the verge of extinction

A sharp increase in the potential demand for domestic machine-tool construction is primarily signaled by the state itself as represented by the defense industry complex. “Our main task is to have time to create the necessary number of productions to ensure the projected order in 2016,” says Gleb Nikitin.

At the same time, market players testify to the total non-competitiveness of the products of the Russian machine tool industry. “In order to increase the mutual attractiveness of doing business both for producers and distributors of the industry, special attention should be paid to this issue, for example, to ease the tax burden. Thus, the priority direction of the Finval Group of Companies is to solve technological problems of any complexity based on the use of high-tech equipment of foreign manufacture, as there are no worthy domestic analogues of these machines at the moment, ”the Director of the Technical Center of CJSC“ Finval-Industry ”notes ( the company - distributor of machine tools and tools, bearings and tooling) Yuri Yurikov.

According to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, production of machine tools for January-May 2013 of the year is estimated at 95,9% by January-May of 2012. At the same time, the production of machine tools as compared to January-May 2012 amounted to 88,8%, CNC lathes - 79,7, forging and pressing machines - 89,6, woodworking machines - 98%. According to the data for 2012 year, the coefficient of technological equipment update does not exceed 1% per year, and the moral and physical depreciation of fixed assets of machine-tool plants reaches 70-80%. The total share of machine tools in GDP is several times less than in the industry leading countries: China, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, the United States and Taiwan. As a result, about 90% of machine tool capacities purchased today by domestic factories are foreign equipment.

So, according to Yuri Yurikov, “the currently used fleet of domestic equipment dominates substantially in almost all machine-building enterprises in Russia. However, on the 80% it is a continuously becoming obsolete universal equipment. In the newest stories domestic machine tool industry is experiencing difficult times and came close to complete degradation. Today, there is no need to talk about any significant competition of domestic machine tools with foreign models. For this reason, no doubt, the advantage when choosing a supplier of equipment is provided to foreign companies. Thus, Russian consumers recognize both the technical and the economic advantage of the latter. ”

The machines manufactured in Russia are low-and mid-range equipment that is not in the high-tech category, noted in the St. Petersburg Committee for Industrial Policy and Innovation. “The efficiency of the Russian machine tool industry is low. The greatest problems are connected with the unsatisfactory organization of production, sales of products and low innovative activity, ”the government of St. Petersburg confirms. In addition, foreign companies at the state level are granted substantial benefits - both in taxes and in the export of their products to other countries.

According to the doctor of technical sciences, professor of the department of technology of construction materials and materials science of the St. Petersburg State Polytechnic University, Mikhail Korotkikh, the restoration of the production of means of production in Russia is an essential component of the country's economic security. Indeed, the industry is not able to succeed in the much-needed technological breakthrough, using only its own funds. In many ways, this is justified by the extremely long by the modern standards the payback period of the products of the machine-tool industry. Mikhail Korotkikh also noted that the industry is forced to overcome a difficult path: to build an integral automated chain, eliminating human participation due to the spread of robotics. Active market participants have repeatedly sent detailed appeals to the Deputy Prime Minister of Russia and the Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin about the inadmissibility of further blind sponsorship of machine-tool technologies of competing countries. The fact is that when purchasing equipment from, say, a German company, the order price also includes a certain percentage redirected by the manufacturer to the fund of future engineering design developments in the industry. Consequently, with each subsequent purchase, Russian consumers of foreign equipment increase the gap between world and domestic levels of competitiveness of machine tool products.

Light at end of tunnel

In the NWFD, the machine tool industry is represented by a small number of enterprises, often with a rich Soviet past. Among the largest regional representatives of the industry are Kirov StankoMash LLC (a subsidiary of Kirovsky Plant OJSC, a relatively recently created enterprise based on the own developments of the Kirovsky Plant and bankrupt enterprises of the industry, St. Petersburg), the St. Petersburg Precision Machine-Tool Plant (created on the basis of the Machine-Tool Plant Ilyich), Petersburg Machine-Tool Plant TBS, CJSC, Baltic Machine-Tool Plant, CJSC (St. Petersburg), Vologda Machine-Tool Building Co., Ltd. Water ”, OJSC“ Petrozavodsk Machine-Tool Building Plant ”, OJSC“ Northern Communard ”(Vologda).

The state of the machine tool industry in St. Petersburg reflects the general state of this sector in the country, noted in the Committee on Industrial Policy and Innovations of St. Petersburg. Nevertheless, at present, there have been some positive developments in the industry. In the northern capital with the support of the Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs of St. Petersburg and the Russian association of manufacturers of machine tool industry "Stankoinstrument" the cluster of machine tool industry has been operating since 2012.

The cluster unites practically all manufacturers of machine tool equipment of the North-West to achieve a common goal - to ensure the life cycle (R & D - production setting - mass production), as well as to actively participate in creating the modern market of innovative high-tech equipment and technological services for leading industries and industry of Russia. The cluster includes such companies as LLC Kirov-Stankomash, OJSC Special Design Bureau of Machine-Tool Information and Measuring Systems with Experimental Production, LLC Saint-Petersburg Precision Machine-Tool Building Plant, ZAO Special Design Bureau of Heavy and Unique Machine Tools and etc. In addition to this cluster, an Innovation and Technology Cluster of mechanical engineering and metalworking works in the city, which also includes machine tool enterprises. Cluster formations are an effective tool for increasing the competitiveness of the domestic machine-tool industry, in particular St. Petersburg.

Most of the representatives of the industry tend to concentrate previously accumulated experience, and most importantly - the engineering and design development of the Soviet machine tool enterprises, often bankrupt and liquidated. However, such efforts need to be supported by the development of a comprehensive knowledge-intensive infrastructure, putting the achievement of the country's technological independence at the forefront. It is almost impossible to develop the industry under the existing financing system, especially if we are talking about a qualitative leap at the technological level.

The measures taken today to consolidate efforts in the industry have not yet brought clear results. Neither the Minpromtorg program “Development of the industry and increasing its competitiveness”, nor attempts to create a single design and engineering center (the so-called Interstate Eurasian Engineering Center) with a branch network for the modernization and technical re-equipment of enterprises in the field of mechanical engineering and metallurgy are not already existing tools for the restoration of machine tools industry. And finally, there is no systematic interest of industry participants and related specialists in restoring lost competencies and finding at least acceptable niches for a new qualitative revolution in development. Domestic enterprises are still alone with the machine tool industry in an attempt to restore the balance of power on it.

Comments

[svp67]

I don’t understand one thing, gentlemen-ministers “do not see” the prospects for the country's development until 2030. And for a fig we need such ministers ... An obvious flaw on the part of the GDP. I really hope that it is still fixable ...

[mirag2]

Much earlier, only after coming to power, Putin said that in 2030 we would catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards.
How far do you think this is?

[120267]

But Portugal will already go 20 years ahead at an increasing pace ?!

[Val_y]

C'mon, by 2030 there will be minarets everywhere, so ...

[GREAT RUSSIA]

Quote: mirag2

Much earlier, only after coming to power, Putin said that in 2030 we would catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards.
How far do you think this is?

Portugal? Are they kidding me? Portugal has an average standard of living across the EU. And what would France, Germany, England or Norway catch up to us for probably another 50 years will come in handy? NO! So things won’t go too bad. You need to take urgent measures, not chasing the support of the domestic manufacturer. You need to create design bureaus that will create drawings of new, more efficient machines, you need factories and plants to establish the production of these machines. All this needs only money and people with brains and hands in the right place!

[Boralex63]

"All this requires only money and people who have brains and hands in the right place!"
Wow ... People! Where are they people? At the enterprises, there is nobody to work ... Young people don’t go to production at all! Five more years and qualified specialists - will not be! And now the old men alone! They will retire and that's all - PIPE !!!

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: Boralex63

"All this requires only money and people who have brains and hands in the right place!"
Wow ... People! Where are they people? At the enterprises, there is nobody to work ... Young people don’t go to production at all! Five more years and qualified specialists - will not be! And now the old men alone! They will retire and that's all - PIPE !!!

"DRY" CAN TRANSFER THE PRODUCTION OF AIRCRAFT FROM KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR TO CHINA.
===
Company lacks human resources, said the first deputy chairman of the Khabarovsk Territory government on economic issues.

"In the development of high-tech manufacturing industries we rest in the absence of the necessary workforce of the right qualifications.

Just the other day I met with the leaders of the Sukhoi company, discussed the prospects of the Komsmolsk-on-Amur aircraft plant. Sukhoi needs aircraft production to grow by 15-20% per year, but there are no human resources for this"

In the end, it was true, there was a promise to deal with the leadership of "Sukhoi". Let's wait and see if we figured it out or not. But in any case, the personnel situation is difficult, and not only at Sukhoi.

Totally here:

itar-tass.com/ekonomika/1226710

[GREAT RUSSIA]

Quote: rkkasa 81

"DRY" CAN TRANSFER THE PRODUCTION OF AIRCRAFT FROM KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR TO CHINA.

Do they understand what is tantamount to betraying domestic industry?

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: GREAT RUSSIA

Do they understand what is tantamount to betraying domestic industry?

H.Z. maybe they understand.

In general, there was then a refutation, they say, they did not think about this:

itar-tass.com/ekonomika/1227703

but most likely it was not without reason that an official of a sufficiently high level made the following statement:

First Deputy Chairman of the Government of the Khabarovsk Territory for Economic Affairs Alexander Levintal said that the leadership of the aircraft building JSC Sukhoi Company is considering the possibility of transferring production facilities from Komsomolsk-on-Amur to the PRC.

Maybe they really gave me a hand.

But the point is that in any case, the issue with the staff is very difficult.

[anomalocaris]

And it’s heavy everywhere. Where do specialists come from, everywhere are required with experience of 5 years or more? In the USSR there was a very competent personnel policy, there was a distribution system that was widely accepted by many, but which allowed this experience to be developed. Yes, and you have to pay normally. No one will go hunchback for 12-15 thousand.

[I am]

And what to do if office equipment and furniture are bought in universities instead of machines ??? Rikuda specialists take. To be able to work, you need to know HOW !!!! And there’s nothing to teach !!! On the simulators show it all !!!! We need real steps and WORKING !!!!!! So there are none and no specialists .....

[Metal bro]

universities then why machines? machines for secondary special education. For universities, laboratories are needed) And here just simulators are basically. How else? But money needs to be spent on this, yes.

[anomalocaris]

I have always said and will say: an engineer who cannot do the work of a worker in his specialty is not an engineer, but a misunderstanding.

[Metal bro]

the engineer must show how to do, and not do for him. Any engineer coming from a university and having any experience can do everything for a worker. But the worker for the engineer never. And universities do not need to spend time on this. A university is a place where you need to read books, work in laboratories, and get the maximum education at this time. After leaving the university, books are already read poorly. Remember yourself. Was it easy for you to learn how to work later? And to do the job for the worker, no special brains are needed. Surely the engineer will not be able to do this?)

[anomalocaris]

I did not say that an engineer should work instead of a worker. By the way, workers can often do the work of an engineer, do not underestimate the working class. And the fact that you don’t have a lot of brains, you are extremely mistaken.
But smart books should always be read and studied. You’ll be late otherwise.

[zulusuluz]

And they told me at the university that the main task of an engineer is to learn how to search and use information. And for this just basic knowledge of higher education and their understanding are needed, and not a simple "memorized".

[Metal bro]

Yes, they are learning to study at universities. I didn’t do this, but anyway. The base is laid in the university, as you said. And the more directions you manage to climb (the more versatile your ideas are), the better it will be later. If you didn’t crawl into neural networks at the university, what will it be like to take them later? Because it’s still difficult to study a fundamentally different science from scratch)

[nekromonger]

it’s immediately clear that you don’t know anything about production. I work at the DMU machining center. After the specialized universities, children come and drop their jaws at the sight of what we are doing, and you say that any engineer can do everything for any worker. a real engineer needs a 1-head 2-experience, and a university, the more current it is only a crust.

[Alex Danilov]

I agree. Head + experience. And where to get this experience? When, everyone is looking for experience. Why not take it to production and train normally? Where to get that experience?

[Bayonet]

Quote: MetalBro

And to do the job for the worker, no special brains are needed.

So they (brains) are not there, if the diploma is bought! You don’t know how they are studying at universities now?

[andj61]

Quote: MetalBro

universities then why machines?

How do you imagine the preparation of a student in engineering, if he NEVER saw a live machine? Machine tools are needed, and in the first courses there are enough old ones, and in the senior courses it is imperative to introduce modern ones. It will not work in absentia. For universities, of course, we need laboratories, but not in the form of simulators. The engineer on the machine does not work, as a rule, he uses it.
But he should understand the device of the machine.

[Irokez]

Quote: andj61

Machine tools are needed, and in the first courses there are enough old ones, and in the senior courses it is imperative to introduce modern ones.

That's right, but in universities there is such a thing as practice in factories and more than once it is done so that you can get acquainted anywhere and in universities if you need this equipment for direct study at it or for research purposes.
As it was said correctly, technology is more needed in vocational schools and technical schools which directly teach workers and senior specialists specifics, while in higher education institutions they are already studying higher matters and here you need to teach and study thoughts, knowledge and intelligence of the modern world, and not stand by the machine (although I don’t argue , it was said that elementary knowledge and ideas about working on machines as a practice should be, but elementary).
Even an engineer who leaves a university and arrives at a plant is not the kind of specialist whom they want in production because there are a lot of manufactures, but they train engineers according to the generalized classical scheme and the difference between our system and foreign one is that our specialist is semi-specialist, but he is fumbling in many areas (which is good for the general outlook), and the foreign is highly specialized and therefore it is more prepared for a specific job, but no more. And in view of the fact that a person has been studying and gaining experience all his life, our engineers in this respect are superior to foreign ones, because they can work and quickly get used to them much faster than foreign ones in any production (generalists).
If anyone has met such a phrase after graduation: - "Forget what you were taught at the institute." So it is not casual, the study at each new place is different and the requirements and specifics are different, therefore, studies in the status of "Young Specialist" continue for another 2-3 years, and this is correct when experience is gained and all the subtleties of this enterprise are studied.
In occasion of specialists in industry (any fur of processing and production). A lot of young specialists come out after the university, but the problem is money, because company managers don’t really want to babysit youth and pay them a lot of money (to some extent this is justified on their part), but on the other hand, the old ones leave, and there is no replacement because small salaries do not hold anyone. And in the age of our frenzied capitalism, they save on everything and on youth too.
Two years ago, a young designer on average in the country (Moscow is the state in the state) was given a salary of 12-14 tr. (right now they raised 15), but this is the first year from the university. Who with experience came to another production 18-22 because it is also not 100% the designer is considered because he did not work in this industry and he delves into a new area. With the experience of 25-30 and there is no longer a shortage of designers and developers who are moving from place to place and thereby begin to delve into new production facilities without using 100% of their previous experience. Women generally find it difficult because they are not considered a full-fledged designer or designer, and thus salaries are lower by 15-30%, although there are such nuggets that men are crushed by quick wits.

[Irokez]

Extension

The problem, of course, is still in managers who, apart from profit and money, do not take anything into account and start saving money by dismissing engineering, believing that right now, for example, a constructor is not needed, and then we type in if necessary. Horseradish guessed. Firstly, there is a shortage of sensible designers, secondly, who will not be dismissed (because of resentment), thirdly there are no universal designers in the world (and sorrow leaders consider the opposite because of their ignorance) and therefore they will always learn and gain experience on the new production as young specialists, but of course in a shorter time.
I wrote this big opus to the fact that I’m very familiar with this topic and there will be no problems or not regarding the minds and specialists in the development of new technology, but I see the problem in the managers who are focused on short-term profit to the detriment of the future, that is, they live today without thinking about tomorrow and therefore do not invest in the future (development, manufacture of prototypes, testing and debugging of equipment and personnel policy).
For example, you need to develop fast some kind of machine and so worked the first timeand did not breakand cheaperand for salary. Well, tell this to a young specialist after the university if all experienced have gone or gone.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I will say. As a rule, an engineer with a technical education can work and quickly get used to it in almost all areas of working life from a physician to a chemist and from a historian to a military man, for the head thinks and thinks with realities and images of the material world and operates with specifics.
Prove the opposite, even with a few examples from abstract sciences to mechanical production and design.

[andj61]

Quote: Irokez

As a rule, an engineer with a technical education can work and quickly get used to it in almost all areas of working life from a physician to a chemist and from a historian to a military man, for the head thinks and thinks with realities and images of the material world and operates with specifics.

I completely agree. The engineer himself, worked as a designer and in production, and when engineers became unnecessary in the 90s, he received a law degree. It is impossible to go back now - 20 years have passed.

[Metal bro]

This is not possible; universities have been practicing for more than one summer. You know that. Below already written, I was late. Well, diplomas. Now the truth is already a different system.

[Takashi]

Komsomolsky on the Amur Sukhoi branch = KnaAAZ = KnaAPO
Manning engineering - almost completely (no seats)
Staffing - in full (within the normal turnover of staff)

What kind of personnel situation are you all talking about ???

Go here = http://www.cezan.ru = type search by company
Jobs will open for you
Group 1 (Engineering)
engineering design 1
engineering tech 6
2 group (worker)
COLLECTOR-RIVER = 350 people
Mechanic assembly works = 54
LOCKSMARTER FOR PRODUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT OF PARTS FOR AIRCRAFT VEHICLES = 40
SOFTWARE OPERATOR OPERATOR = 304
TOOLFITTER = 70
LOCKSMITH REPAIRER = 15
TURKEY = 60
BURNER-TURNER = 18
MILLER = 28
Locksmith = 6
REPAIR ELECTROMONTER = 10

3 group
LOADER = 6
auxiliary worker = 1

[Takashi]

KnaAZ does not have so many machines - 304 !!!!.

In theory, one CNC operator should service 3-4-5 CNC machines. We have, for each machine operator with CNC. even if we imagine that the machines work in 3 shifts (3 operator with CNC) = 304 \ 3 = 101 machine. :) :) :) :) :) :)

Knaaz does not have so many machines.

[zulusuluz]

It’s just that the prestige of engineering education needs to be raised, not financial, otherwise financiers will soon be selling their own kind. there will be no one to produce. Unfortunately.

[fzr1000]

Portugal has an average EU standard of living

I would say below average.

[andj61]

According to the IMF for 2013, Portugal ranks 46th in the world in terms of per capita GDP - $ 23068, Russia - 56th - $ 17884.
For the year 2000 - Portugal - $ 18335, Russia - $ 7675.
So we are catching up.

[Professor]

Quote: andj61

So we are catching up.

But not very:
77th Russia $18,100 2013 est.
64th without hydrocarbon exports Portugal $22,900 2013 est.
COUNTRY COMPARISON :: GDP - PER CAPITA (PPP)

[Jrvin]

It’s not necessary to catch up with them =) you can simply lower their level =)

[1812 1945]

Quote: mirag2

Much earlier, only after coming to power, Putin said that in 2030 we would catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards.
What do you thinkhow far is this?

All funds for the modernization and technical re-equipment of the industry went into the pockets of the "bastard Russian elite". Luxury goods, overseas real estate, football clubs around the world ... - that's where the funds for a technological breakthrough! At the time when they promised to catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards, this country was in last place in this indicator in the EU. An enviable goal for a Great Power - you will not say anything. It was difficult to come up with a meaner and more talentless thing than what Gaidar and his comrades (practically - almost everyone who has since then in power) implemented. It is not for nothing that CIA is a civic organization employing highly qualified specialists. As long as "effective owners" rule in Russia, as long as there is oligarchic capitalism here, you can wait for the acquisition of real economic independence (at least, sufficient for the existence of the state in times of crisis) to the end of the world. (Or - USA.)

[Mihaylo Tishayshiy]

Quote: mirag2

Much earlier, only after coming to power, Putin said that in 2030 we would catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards.
How far do you think this is?

Quote: 120267

But Portugal will already go 20 years ahead at an increasing pace ?!

Calm, comrades! In the current geopolitical situation, the European Union may soon order a long life. Then, in Portugal, things will roll downhill, they will catch up, and we will not have to puff up, catching up with them (in this way we don’t need to strain, and the promise will be fulfilled). But if we are going to overtake them in terms of living in this way, then, being ahead, it will not be convenient to shine in front of strangers with their bare ass.

[cormorant]

This is for me the biggest mystery in Russian politics, why keep people like Siluanov and Ulyukaev in ministers. After all, it is clear that they are at least pests. I do not understand!

[Ivan Petrovich]

to develop the industry it’s not for you to drive football ...

[GREAT RUSSIA]

Quote: Ivan Petrovich

to develop the industry it’s not for you to drive football ...

But not a time machine to create.

[I am]

You can buy equipment, but just work on it and service it who will ???

[ziqzaq]

Quote: cormorant

This is for me the biggest mystery in Russian politics, why keep people like Siluanov and Ulyukaev in ministers. After all, it is clear that they are at least pests. I do not understand!

That's for sure, especially Livanov - the Minister of Education needs to be removed ... Still that blowjob erysipelas ....

[_my opinion]

about machines:
NPO Stankostroenie completed the first part of the project for the supply of 15 machines to the Sukhoi Company
OOO NPO Stankostroenie (Sterlitamak, Bashkiria) completed the first part of the contract for the production and installation of 15 metal-working machines of the Sukhoi Company at the Aviation Plant named after YA Gagarin in the city of Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The contract amount was 204 million rubles.

The contract was implemented as part of the project on reconstruction and technical re-equipment unit-assembly and auxiliary production of JSC Sukhoi Company.
The manufacturing and delivery of the machines took 6 months. During the execution of the contract, "Sukhoi Company", having assessed the potential of the new equipment, made additional requirements for the characteristics of the equipment bringing them as close as possible to the characteristics of foreign analogues produced in Japan and Germany.
At the moment, NPO Stankostroenie has fully completed the delivery of the first part of the equipment. NPO Stankostroenie LLC (formerly Sterlitamak Machine-Tool Plant) is a major manufacturer of machine tools. It is part of the STAN Group. with index or globe tables with horizontal or vertical axis of the tool spindle, universal drilling machines.

[Bayonet]

Well done that they produce machines, only whose components are they? Check out the description of any of them, if it's not just a whetstone.

[Akuzenka]

Nothing new. Again cry and screams, "how bad everything is" instead of real development plans. Give all financiers free rein, ordinary people will be liquidated as economically insolvent. There is nothing new and surprising in their speeches.
And the country is developing contrary to them!

[Siberian German]

everyone - they see everything, but only that impression, they deliberately sabotage it - they all have the same impression abroad

[3vs]

The collapse of the country and decades of struggle for survival did not pass in vain.
Many cool specialists left the industry.
And to stop the lag in the field of machine tools will be oh how difficult.

[semen777]

Therefore, it is necessary to begin the revival of vocational education, to raise the prestige of blue-collar professions, and not only by high salaries! A person should be proud that he knows how to do this, as the saying goes "to keep the brand." with the mass media, and you can't do without censorship on the go!

[Irokez]

Quote: semen777

Therefore, it is necessary to begin the revival of vocational education, to raise the prestige of blue-collar professions, and not only by high salaries! A person should be proud that he knows how to do this, as the saying goes "to keep the brand." with the mass media, and you can't do without censorship on the go!

Correctly. To remove films from TV where they show office plankton (economists, accountants, managers, dizaynori, major majors and girls building House-2), and create and promote ordinary, everyday life situations for hard workers, farmers, engineers and engineers in all its glory of problems and joys and please make these films not in Moscow, but in our vast country.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Irokez

Correctly. From TV, remove films where they show office plankton (

You don’t need to clean up, you just need to show NOT ONLY office plankton, otherwise we’ll get to the solid industrial theme and collective farm romance already.

[AVV]

Quote: 3vs

The collapse of the country and decades of struggle for survival did not pass in vain.
Many cool specialists left the industry.
And to stop the lag in the field of machine tools will be oh how difficult.

First you need to take advantage of the Chinese experience to peel and copy our existing imported equipment, machine tools, then upgrade them, and then start creating your own and unique !!! There is no other way to raise machine building to a normal level !!! This will allow us to reduce the time to raise the industry from the ashes of 90 x !!!!

[3vs]

Why do we need to copy something, we have our own developments.
For fun, go to the site
"Ivanovo Heavy Machine Tool Plant" http://www.izts.ru/products/
The point is the lack of personnel of both design engineers and competent
workers.
Moreover, there is a problem with "import substitution".
When at the end of the 80s and 90s people ran away from the design bureau, to somehow
feed, the school created by V.P. Kabaidze began to crumble.
The disappearance of specialized vocational schools for mechanical engineering also contributed.

The restoration of all this must first of all be political
will, financing and a little time.
Well, if the GDP has worthy associates in this regard,
but it will be like Chernomyrdin - "We wanted the best, but it turned out as always."

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: 3vs

Why do we need to copy something, we have our own developments.
For fun, go to the site
"Ivanovo Heavy Machine Tool Plant" http://www.izts.ru/products/

I ran ...

Horizontal boring machining center IS1400PMF4:

Currently, the IS1400PMF4 horizontal boring machining center is equipped with a CNC system, a set of drives and motors f. Siemens, LIR or Heidenhain measuring systems, imported rail guards, imported hydraulics and pneumatics.

Highly dynamic multi-purpose machine ISK5000

Currently, the ISK5000 High-Dynamic Multi-Purpose Machine is equipped with a CNC system, a set of drives and motors f. Siemens, Heidenhain measuring systems, imported rail guards, imported hydraulics and pneumatics (HYDAK, FESTO).

[3vs]

The thing is, how to replace the import, if there is no analogue.
And if you have, then you can’t sell it to the west!

But our men, men told us what kind of plague they did in the defense industry.
from such machines.
A pair of machining centers on both sides simultaneously processed
body BMP-shki, work - you can’t take your eyes off!

[andj61]

The Ivanovo plant was the foremost in the 80s in the USSR - and that is much worse than the Germans, but now it has fallen behind even more.
But the backwardness is not in the use of imported components, but in the concept itself. Although ours remains only a bed there, the truth is that the bed is also a very important product for the machine. We can collect the designer from the details, but to combine all this into a highly effective original complex - it does not work. Science is used either German, that is, we repeat after them, or our obsolete 80s, but it is still German, created on its basis. Russia does not invest sufficient funds in science.

[Bayonet]

Quote: 3vs

Why do we need to copy something, we have our own developments.

I don’t want to repeat myself, but look from whose components these "our developments" are assembled.

[Irokez]

Quote: Bayonet

look from whose components these "our developments" are assembled.

Of whose? From the Chinese.
An example just yesterday, from the foot of an Italian gearbox, two tapered thrust bearings were replaced with a Baltic one and ours of some kind. Even some allegedly European bearings are already distrusted.
The problem warmed up at idle to 95 degrees and reached 2 hours of work, and in dusty conditions this temperature is no-no.
China already almost serves and supplies the whole West, and specifically the West, it’s expensive, and this is the price, and the customer wants to pay only for quality, but also cheaper. Here is a vicious circle.
Raise our machine tool, I think at the first stage it is to raise the quality of domestic bearings, seals, elementary painting for presentation and shiny details that are in sight. I assure you that sales will rise and the quality will not fall from the operating time (accuracy will remain with normal bearings and there will be no eternal oil leakage).

[I am]

Domestic machine-building industry died by 90%. And those who survived survive in terrible conditions. There is equipment, workers are there, and how to work AS it was supposed in the USSR, all sorts of restrictions such as ISO 9000, WTO and other pro-Western crap do not give !!!! GUESTS RETURN !!!!!!!! And the responsibility for their non-compliance!

[Professor]

The total share of machine tool industry in GDP is several times less than that of the countries - leaders in the industry: China, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, the USA and Taiwan. As a result, about 90% of the machine tool capacity purchased today by domestic factories is foreign equipment

The author forgot to include Switzerland in this list.
The train left and with all the desire not to catch it. Cause? The same one according to which Mercedes is developed and made in Germany, the rest is only trusted to assemble it under tireless German supervision.

[mirag2]

The reason Mercedes is being developed in Germany and assembled under German supervision is not because those who collect it have crooked hands and weak brains, but because they want to keep the nuances and achievements, because this is a product with high added value what the German economy (medium business, its basis) feeds on.

[Professor]

Many people have tried and are trying to indulge in the automotive industry, as well as the machine tool industry. It turns out this is in units, and as a rule in the same ones. The USSR could not boast of either one or the other. There were only a few exceptions, such as stone-cutting machines.

[mihailmpmailru]

You're not right. Soviet machine-tool construction was at a high level, only he was buried, which was a directed policy in the 90s. In 86, we built a factory where there were all Soviet machines of the 85s. releases at that time were advanced, even with program management (for woodworking and production of reinforced concrete products), but in the early 90s it all collapsed and demolished.

[Professor]

Quote: mihailmpmailru

Soviet machine tool building was at a high level

It was never at a high level. Where they could buy bourgeois machine tools. I can tell you a couple of funny stories about this.

[fzr1000]

The Russian government has adopted a machine tool development program. To fulfill it, you will have to repeat the revolutionary changes that took place in the world twenty years ago, not only in the technical, but also in the organizational sphere


“We do not produce anything,” stated the authors of the article of the same name, published in our magazine “Expert” last fall (No. 47 of November 26, 2012). To a large extent, this applies to machine tool construction. The level of machine tool production in Russia fell from almost 70 thousand machines per year in 1991 to a little over three thousand in 2012, that is, more than twenty times. But the Soviet machine-tool industry was at the world level - from 1984 to 1990, more than 45 thousand units of machine tools and forging and pressing equipment were exported to Germany alone.

Still need to add something?

[Alex_T]

As a mechanical engineer by training and having experience in several factories, I can not agree with you. In the early 90s, the level of Soviet machine tools was comparable with the European, Soviet metal cutting machines were comparable in characteristics with German and Italian, I mean modern multi-coordinate programmable machines (CNC) capable of processing it from all sides automatically in one operation without automatically operator participation. There were machine tool, tool factories, hard alloy plants. But with the collapse of the union, no one was engaged in the development of this industry, and many factories were in decline.

[I am]

Comment above read the unfinished bourgeois

[andj61]

I can tell you more stories - I have the appropriate experience. In the West, they included equipment for the production of the most important elements of machine tools (ball screw pairs, for example) - on the list of banned for import into the USSR, while the USSR did nothing of the kind: EDM machines manufactured since the 60s were freely sold, and after that as patent payments were not paid in the 70s, they began to produce them in the West, having previously stolen production technology. The USSR was a non-profit project, otherwise a lot of the current advantages of the West in technology could not have taken place.

[Irokez]

Quote: professor

I can tell you a couple of funny stories about this.

Your language can tell a lot of funny things.

He also worked at the Machine Tool Plant where horizontal grinding was made. Damn drafted that forbidden to sell abroad because of too precise processing in the truest sense of the word.
And when perestroika began, everything was gradually ruffled up and disbelief began to make the beds for machine tools welded from steel due to the inability to get cast iron. Steel is not cast iron you yourself understand what accuracy was from the temperature leash.

[IFreedman]

Quote: mihailmpmailru

You're not right. Soviet machine-tool construction was at a high level, only he was buried, which was a directed policy in the 90s. In 86, we built a factory where there were all Soviet machines of the 85s. releases at that time were advanced, even with program management (for woodworking and production of reinforced concrete products), but in the early 90s it all collapsed and demolished.

Not so high. In the 80s, they even illegally bought Japanese machines for the manufacture of propellers and submarine hull elements (it seems that someone from the Toshiba top management was bribed), because they themselves could not make such equipment.


"Almost all the machines on which the weapons are produced are imported, for example, at the Votkinsk plant, where our missiles are made, more than half of the equipment is foreign-made - Czech, French, Swiss, American machines"

Read more: http://top.rbc.ru/politics/14/05/2014/923813.shtml

Well, do not forget about microelectronics

[I am]

What are you ?????? NII INTEGRAL Saratov, you know ????? Do you know what it released ????? Here's how you answer, immediately drown, lie inappropriately, many still remember what, who and where in the USSR let out and on what !!!!!
And the fact that now imports are everywhere, not an indicator, the MACHINE-BUILDING plants that worked for export in the USSR were deliberately destroyed. For example, in Saratov, on the site of the Gear-cutting plant, there is the Vladimirsky market, and in the place of the Microshlif plant, there is simply a "market on Rakhova" (((((((((So where to get a domestic one. The machine is not a table, you can't build !!!

[Irokez]

Quote: I am

THE MACHINE-BUILDING PLANTS WHICH WORKED FOR EXPLORATION IN THE USSR HAS BEEN DELiberately Destroyed.

I agree completely because a machine is a means of production and whoever controls these means is the master of this world.
This was the restructuring to raise the economy of the West and lower our.

[Alex_T]

CNC machines of our own production, capable of processing a "propeller" type part, were definitely in the Union in the 80s. At least at the aircraft plant where I worked, on a Soviet 5-axis machine, parts that did not even have 2 perpendicular surfaces were quietly milled (there are many such parts in an aircraft). Another thing is that for milling large-sized parts of complex shape, the union did not produce machines and it was cheaper to buy a ready-made one than to make your own. As far as microelectronics is concerned, for the operation of a CNC machine, a low-power computer at the level of the first Soviet home computers is enough, who remembers: "Corvette", "Radio86RK", "ZX Spectrum"

[I am]

SOVIET lathes with aerodynamic spindle suspension processed the surface with an accuracy of 2 microns from the first pass. Well, what kind of imported machine will surpass !!!!! Well, yes the CNC is out of date, but the iron is still working, replace the electronics and you can work !!!! True, it will be difficult to establish the release of these machines, the base is destroyed ((((((

[samoletil18]

In the mid-1980s, he worked at one of the defense enterprises in the then Sverdlovsk. In the metalworking workshop, the bulk of the machines were domestic. Moreover, with CNC as well. Tolerances on the nomenclature are approximately the same. The measuring equipment is all Soviet. It’s more difficult for cars: demand allowed introducing into the production obviously obsolete models with the maximum possible range of available parts and assemblies, which reduced production and time costs when switching to new ones. There was a lag then, but it was not critical.

[AVV]

Quote: professor

The total share of machine tool industry in GDP is several times less than that of the countries - leaders in the industry: China, Italy, Germany, Japan, South Korea, the USA and Taiwan. As a result, about 90% of the machine tool capacity purchased today by domestic factories is foreign equipment

The author forgot to include Switzerland in this list.
The train left and with all the desire not to catch it. Cause? The same one according to which Mercedes is developed and made in Germany, the rest is only trusted to assemble it under tireless German supervision.

The same thing was said about Russia in 90, that the country was going downhill, and that was the strength of Russia, that it was on its feet much faster than the Anglo-Saxons would like !!! Russia cannot be understood by the mind, this must be remembered in Israel too !!!

[Professor]

Quote: AVV

The same thing was said about Russia in 90, that the country was going downhill, and that was the strength of Russia, that it was on its feet much faster than the Anglo-Saxons would like !!! Russia cannot be understood by the mind, this must be remembered in Israel too !!!

We got some slogans. Let's get the numbers. Start with a competition at the Polytechnic University and the "office plankton". And then let's talk about machine tool construction.

[I am]

At the Polytechnic ????? Yes, he, too, was almost ruined by people like you !!! EVERYTHING, let's start cooking European !!!!! Do not choke on greed !!!!!! Well, let’s restore everything soon and the Polytechnic too, but we will send all the bankers, money-lenders and those who love European values ​​to Europe, or rather, to hell with Europe !!!! Only this time, as in 1945, we will not regret it; we will burn it with a hot iron, completely !!!!

[Professor]

Quote: I am

At the Polytechnic ????? Yes, he, too, was almost ruined by people like you !!!

Well, of course I am. Who else?

Quote: I am

Well, let’s restore everything soon and the Polytechnic too, but we will send all the bankers, money-lenders and those who love European values ​​to Europe, or rather, to hell with Europe !!!!

And what specific steps are being taken in this direction?

Quote: I am

Only this time, as in 1945, we will not regret it; we will burn it with a hot iron, completely !!!!

I'm all in fear ...

[fzr1000]

Bad example. Yeah ... this is the reason why over the past 20 years, Mercedes from a really high-quality product has turned into a remnant for 3-4 years, which is scary to own after the warranty period. The whole German automobile industry (and what’s there - European) is concerned.
PS Mercedes factories are in the States (ML-class, GL-class is the most homely city ...), Austria (G-class) ... too lazy to write

Besides its native Germany, Mercedes-Benz vehicles are also manufactured or assembled in:

* Argentina [7] (buses, trucks and the Sprinter van. The first factory of Mercedes-Benz outside of Germany)
* Austria (G-Class) [8]
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Brazil [9] (buses, trucks, C-class passenger cars (export only), established in 1956)
*Canada
*China
* Egypt [10]
* Ghana (buses, trucks, taxis)
* Hungary (construction of a new plant in the country announced on June 18, 2008, for the next generation A- and B-Class) [11] [12]
* India [13]
* Indonesia [14]
* Iran
* Malaysia [15]
*Mexico
* Nigeria [16] (buses, trucks, utility motors and the van Sprinter)
* South Africa [17]
* South Korea (Mercedes-branded Musso and MB100 models manufactured by SsangYong Motor Company)
* Thailand [18]
* Turkey [19]
* United Kingdom (The SLR sports car is built at the McLaren Technology Center in Woking).
* USA

[Professor]

The quality of the Mercedes is not what it was before (but it is still good) and this is due to those who are currently working on assembly lines (I’m hinting, not Germans)

[IFreedman]

Quote: professor

The quality of the Mercedes is not what it was before (but it is still good) and this is due to those who are currently working on assembly lines (I’m hinting, not Germans)

This is more connected with the policy of planned obsolescence than with the crooked hands of workers, for the main operations are performed by high-precision machines. The workers there, figuratively speaking, have to put the wheels and tighten the nuts.

[I am]

What really come from the promised land ????? !!!!

[fzr1000]

"This is due to those who now work on the assembly lines (hinting, not the Germans)"

Oh really? And the quality of components for Mercedes Siemens and Bosch is below average, probably also because the Germans do not work .... Yes, because the Germans have "written", everything is over ..

"The quality of the Mercedes is not what it was before (but it's still good)"

Replacement of gasoline engines under warranty that have not "passed" even 70000 km, and this is in the AMG division, where the quality of products is supposedly higher than on the general conveyor, the disgusting reliability of diesel engines ...
I don’t even want to list further ...

And then there is the "wonderful" BMW brand. Replacement of all injectors of the petrol 8-cylinder engine. Mileage 80 t.km .. The gore of oil on 6-cylinder engines of 1 l / 2-3 t.km is no longer considered a defect. Gasoline-powered turbines can say hello up to 60 t.km .. Electronics - see. above.

And ... finally, VAG. DSG is already the talk of the town. Seizure marks in 8-cylinder NON-TURBO (unloaded) engines, including Porsche. And this is with runs up to 100 t.km .. What can you talk about after that? What other European "quality"? Yes, he hasn't been there for a long time. There is a myth and show-off.

[Professor]

Quote: fzr1000

Oh really?

Really, really. 5 years ago, the Germans conducted a comparative test of the Volkswagen Passat and its clone Skoda. The results were stunning, the Czech assembly Skoda turned out to be more reliable than the German assembly Volvo. As my German colleague said then: "Why are you surprised, in the Czech Republic there is a white assembly, but here ..."

[fzr1000]

But Skoda has torsional rigidity below the skirting board. And the rest (except for the DSG from VAG), yes.

[I am]

Cars produced in the USSR, equal to a Mercedes class, were ABOVE MERCEDES in quality and service life !!!! Therefore, the example is not correct, hta admit, Mercedes is a good machine))))

[Metal bro]

Tin, after this comment, on the rest you can immediately sculpt the mark "nonsense of a stoned patriot". Well, yes, the handcrafted piece is higher in quality. But did the bourgeoisie not have such machines?)

[I am]

If the car breaks down, try to repair the Mercedes, where can you find spare parts? and if out of town ??? But Soviet cars lend themselves to such repairs !!! And they go after that. What is not an argument?
You can throw a lot of arguments like yours, but the main one is that "Western-European type is the coolest and most prestigious" - rolls only in certain circles. Anyone who thinks a step or two further buys a domestic machine, applies work and patience and gets an almost indestructible unit with OOOOO.Very long service life. That's all.

[Metal bro]

Is this from the category of "thanks to the native auto industry for daily practice"? What only a domestic unkillable unit can be made. Well, how many Soviet cars are copies of foreign ones? And if it is more important for a person to spend time on something else than to tinker with a vehicle until it is unkillable. There are, of course, amateurs, but most, it seems to me, would not like to climb under the hood at all.

[samoletil18]

And this example is incorrect. Volumes of production are not comparable.
There is another example. "Moskvich-412". Look at the export volumes in the late 60s, early 70s! And no quality claims. And this is for export to Western Europe.
Then the ALL-SPEEDERS came, and for another 20 years they drove him almost unchanged. The older I get, the more I find excuses for Stalin's "repression". And indeed, in addition to the Hodor, there are also contraceptives to the shit.

[andj61]

Switzerland specializes in precision and small machines, and they are leaders in a very narrow field. About "not catching up" is nonsense. If that were the case, Russia would not have produced the world's best aircraft and tanks. Western designs are much more expensive, but not better.
The problem is that our prom. it is easier for an enterprise to buy something ready in the West, using leasing, benefits, and other fin. tools than to first invest in our production and wait five years for returns.

[Professor]

Switzerland specializes in precision and small machine tools, and they are leaders in a very narrow area.

I don’t know how "small" we have enough.

About "not catching up" is nonsense.

Not bullshit. I know what I'm talking about. There are areas in which the train is gone forever. Machine tool industry is one of them.

If this were so, Russia would not produce the world's best aircraft and tanks.

The best in the world and having no analogs do not discuss. I give up right away.

Western designs are much more expensive, but no better.

It is necessary to compare the cost in the complexity of manufacturing, say in human hours.

[mirag2]

The reason Mercedes is being developed in Germany and assembled under German supervision is not because those who collect it have crooked hands and weak brains, but because they want to keep the nuances and achievements, because this is a product with high added value what the German economy (medium business, its basis) feeds on.

[muginov2015]

The bitter fruits of Putin's politics.

[Rash]

Quote: muginov2015

The bitter fruits of Putin's politics.

Yes, well, Putin is to blame for everything!

[Ivan Petrovich]

and he doesn’t it? who is responsible for the country in the end?

[muginov2015]

The vector of development of the country, U. Rashit, is determined by senior management, G. Pu chose for us, albeit a rapidly enriching but impasse development path, a raw material appendage of the global economy.

[rosewik]

Where do you offer the money? After the collapse of the 90s, many industries were launched, some were lost, and huge money is needed to develop them and become competitive. I advise you to inquire about the problem of developing processors, we are very often interested in why "THEM" have, and "US" does not, but the root of the problem do not look. Our labor force is not needed anywhere, it is very expensive to produce something here, therefore we have to be a "raw material appendage". This same "Dependency" (... an appendage) gives money for the development and subsidies of various industries. In another case, the state would not have had where to get it.

[Cpa]

In addition to modern machine tools, it is necessary to restore and develop tool and high-speed steels, at least to the Soviet level. At the moment, nothing faster than P8 is produced, and the import of high-speed tools is prohibited by "partners" as a strategic product. Labor productivity directly depends on this. I had a knife from a fragment of a Soviet circular rapid saw, which had a cutting speed marking of 45. For Americans, the fastest toolkit corresponds approximately to P32, the secret is kept as "the apple of an eye".

[Ivan Petrovich]

when I expressed the idea that instead of the Olympics they would spend on something really necessary, then I turned out to be an enemy of the people in VO :)

[Cpa]

The Olympics, of course, are great, but if you compare with the production line of high-frequency semiconductors and processors of modern dimension, I would choose the second.

[Ivan Petrovich]

but people need "bread and circuses" ... although even in brazil they began to understand that football is something secondary

[Alex Danilov]

Everything needs to be developed.

[ziqzaq]

Quote: KPA

I had a knife from a fragment of a Soviet circular saw blade, which had a marking of the cutting speed 45

I agree with you, my stocks have been drilled, since the times of the USSR, they cannot be compared with today's ones, although the marking is the same P6M5 .... Apparently they save "effective managers" - they do not give meat to lions, but they do not give tungsten and molybdenum to metal report, radishes mlyn ...

[anomalocaris]

The question is not only in the composition. Although there are very egregious cases. A lot depends on manufacturing technology, but it depends on people.

[I am]

Depends on standards !!!!! If quality management is carried out using ISO9000 or the like, do not expect good. Here are the SOVIET GOSTs - another thing, only according to GOSTs to work in a market economy is not profitable. Too long service life of the finished product is obtained)))))))

[muginov2015]

In-in, I, too, on the shore, checked the remnants like the apple of an eye

[Alex Danilov]

Thieves, not such a place in the bosses! Thieves-who does not follow and does not give all the materials-save and steal.

[anomalocaris]

Where does it come from? I personally watched how a unique plant in Zlatoust was ditched. Yes, it was old, the last modernization was carried out back in the 70s, but it was a truly unique plant. People lined up for his products right up to the very end. Here are just Moscow "managers", sharpened only to get the dough, profiled him ...

[I am]

They didn’t do it, but they killed it on purpose. The cream was removed and fuck *** b)))))))))

[Not hearing]

Honestly, the first time I hear that it’s supposedly impossible to buy a quality cutting tool. I just work in production and somehow I have not encountered this. We also buy imported equipment and we work on it with an imported tool recommended by the manufacturer. We can do our own tool, we have our own tool production, but the quality, for example of worm mills, leaves much to be desired, therefore we only put them on domestic equipment. And to buy a complete tool is a very expensive pleasure.
And it happened to me, maybe I'm wrong, the impression is that you confuse steel marking with cutting speed. It is true that the marking of steel P is a quick cutter. Only the next figure is not the cutting speed, this is the tungsten content. And this does not at all follow that our P18 steel is definitely better than P6M5. In addition, it is very important which coating, which increases the tool life, has steel.

[anomalocaris]

You can buy it. But the fact that on average the quality of the tool has fallen sharply is a fact. The fact that mechanical engineering is in the pen, however, like all production not related to oil and gas, is also a fact.

[muginov2015]

You can buy, but as a rule in stores one Chinese rawhide meat

[anomalocaris]

Well, you need to know where to buy it. True, the price tags for a normal tool are biting, sometimes even too much.

[Bayonet]

Quote: muginov2015

You can buy, but as a rule in stores one Chinese rawhide meat

I prefer to search in the bazaar (drills, taps, lehrs ...) from the grandfathers of honorable Soviet nonsuns who sell old stocks. Here is the quality!

[Bayonet]

Quote: anomalocaris

You can buy it. But the fact that on average the quality of the tool has fallen sharply is a fact. T

Yes, you can buy everything. Junk is full, but really high-quality is very expensive.

[Cpa]

Quote: Not Hearing

Honestly, the first time I hear that it’s supposedly impossible to buy a quality cutting tool. I just work in production and somehow I have not encountered this. We also buy imported equipment and we work on it with an imported tool recommended by the manufacturer.

Now we are talking about import substitution.

Quote: Not Hearing

And it happened to me, maybe I'm wrong, the impression is that you confuse steel marking with cutting speed. It is true that the marking of steel P is a quick cutter. Only the next figure is not the cutting speed, this is the tungsten content.

You’ll write the number right after the letter P - the percentage of tungsten content and it corresponds to the cutting speed in m / min, up to the P18 grade. But high-speed steels from 18 to 45m / min are even more complex in composition (the so-called stellite) and contain other proportions alloying elements.
Given the fact that tungsten was not enough in Soviet times, they switched to self-hardening steel P6M5, which is also considered rapid.

Quote: Not Hearing

And it does not at all follow that our P18 steel is definitely better than P6M5.

And try using P6M5 to cut steel at a speed of 18 meters per minute, it is not difficult to guess the result.
At the moment, the only bankrupt tungsten plant in Russia is looking for its owner offshore, so we have what we have.

[andj61]

Quote: Not Hearing

It is true that the marking of steel P is a quick cutter. Only the next figure is not the cutting speed, this is the tungsten content. And this does not at all follow that our P18 steel is definitely better than P6M5.

The figure is the content of tungsten carbide. P18 is one of the best quick cutters.
P6M5 contains tungsten and molybdenum carbides, and generally speaking, was intended to replace P18 at a lower cost. The replacement result is very satisfactory.

[Alex_T]

The composition of the steel P6M5
http://www.splav-kharkov.com/mat_start.php?name_id=600
The composition of the steel P18
http://www.splav-kharkov.com/mat_start.php?name_id=301
The number after the "P" is the percentage of tungsten, not its carbide. Tungsten carbide is used not in a metal alloy, but in cermets, known in everyday life as "win". For example T15K6: 15% titanium carbide, 6% cobalt, the rest is tungsten carbide.

[Velesovich]

They woke up at last. And before this was not visible? The whole country saw, only the leadership did not notice. Or an overseas smoked rooster pecked in one place, and suddenly it became clear that almost all of the modern industry in the country was based on foreign equipment, which might not be at any moment? Better late than never. I hope this will come out of a real sense, and not just another zilch. And the program will not be curtailed as soon as we make peace with the Europeans.

[samoletil18]

Russia has one salvation - the imposition of sanctions against it. Only those who introduce them, too, understand this very well. As long as oil and gas cost a lot, no Putin, Penochet, Hitler, Alexander III, Caligula, Count Dracula, etc. will not force the state sitting on a raw material needle to engage in production. What is the difference to consumers of raw materials how much does it cost? No. This cost will be included in the price of the product for the consumer, but with a markup. When it came to sanctions after the rescue of Crimea, I knew in advance that no serious action was expected. Why chop the branch on which you sit? Russian elites make good money on raw materials, and pay excellently for high-tech products. And these elites are better than Putin overthrown than they will develop production. For profits will fall.
With the imposition of sanctions, the elites themselves will seek a way to earn money not from raw materials. But do global manufacturers of technological products need this?
There is only one way out - in 1937, Stalin found it. Late (1941 showed), but saved the country.

[Anchonsha]

Here all the craftsmen and those who understand, well, come together very much in the economy. Well, did you find a common way out to improve the economy? Of course not. That's the way it is in the country: some demand dictatorship both in politics and in economics, others are stupid liberals on the principle: even if he is a murderer with irrefutable evidence, but we cannot decide his fate, and suddenly a miscarriage of justice. Other liberals see close cooperation with the West, even if they are to the detriment of Russia (well, in the West everything is better and relations will survive, so a poet and singer Makaronych believes that he doesn’t give a damn about the people of Crimea) And how can all this herd of people be sent to the right channel? Whip, also does not work. Society must grow to smart decisions, and therefore we are tormented even in such simple matters as to convince each other.

[wanderer_032]

Of course, it was necessary to develop our machine tool industry, but since it already is, we need to get out.
I think everything happened on time, everything has not been missed yet and can be fixed.
In Russia, this is always the case, we ourselves create problems for ourselves, and then heroically overcome them.
Isn't it better to do without it?

[Signaller]

All enterprises in the industry. strive, want, etc. etc. And at the end, a quote, specifically showing how they "strive".
The measures taken today to consolidate efforts in the industry do not yet bring obvious results. Neither the Ministry of Industry and Trade “Development of Industry and Enhancing its Competitiveness” program, nor attempts to create a single design and engineering center (the so-called Interstate Eurasian Engineering Center) with a branch network for the modernization and technical re-equipment of enterprises in the field of machine building and metallurgy are already existing tools for the restoration of machine tools industry. And finally, there is no systemic interest of industry participants and specialists in related fields in restoring lost competencies and finding at least acceptable niches for a new high-quality round in development. Domestic enterprises are still [left face to face with the machine tool industry in an attempt to restore the balance of power in it.
Until the state comes up, there will be nothing. Businessmen (who do not know) have a pocket with a flap. If the money got into your pocket, that's all, the valve will not allow them to go back. Only for your consumption. This is an axiom. And the richer the businessman, the wider the pocket, and the valve is more reliable.
As the saying goes, "the young men nourished the hopes." Only a donut hole with this approach will be a sea of ​​empty body movements and wasted money, no more.

[mazhnikof.Niko]

Quote: mirag2

in 2030 we will catch up with Portugal in terms of living standards. What do you think, is this far?

Yes, I think, I think - so far it’s not working out. in the sense of catching up on the standard of living

[fly fishing]

Stop selling resources. Raise agriculture and industry and science. Revenues will be tens of times more. Is it really not clear, or are we all listening to advisers from behind the hill? In Russia, the best specialists, the most hardworking people ... It's time to act!

[anomalocaris]

Everything is clear to everyone, only for this you need to move the horn. Oil and gas will always be bought, but the same car must be managed to cram in the market. And they don’t really want to. Why stir when there are granny whores on Courchevels anyway?

[Bayonet]

Quote: fly fishing

Stop selling resources. Raise agriculture and industry and science.

Enough slogans! Stopping the sale of resources will not only raise nothing, but we will die of hunger!

[Deadmen]

recession, stagflation, neoclassical economic thinking, deregulation oh God !! my brain !!! aaaaaaaaaa.

But seriously ... By the way, in such circumstances, I think it would be possible to involve China in the creation of machine tools, while we were overclocking the industry they would help, maybe they could buy a couple of licenses and let's go and they’re drawing and we are building prototypes. We’re literally the main thing now under the conditions of sanctions accelerate and there you already look at your machines, we’ll think up and set up production. For example, we were going to create our own payment system, but it would be Visa and Master Card. So in such harsh conditions, only cooperation with China is one of the solutions.

[Cristall]

It is a pity that officials do not read VO, do not discuss with the people ... sometimes people express good ideas.

[samoletil18]

Quote: Cristall

It is a pity that officials do not read VO, do not discuss with the people ... sometimes people express good ideas.

This idea also visits me periodically. And yet, it seems that enemies like our sites are reading.

[YeSerg]

In order to develop machine tool industry, it is necessary to develop a sales market, first of all, your own. It is necessary to develop new production and modernization of old ones. Replacing old machines.

And do not forget. Restore the vocational training system. Raise the prestige of working professions.

[suharev-52]

Until we replace the "managers" in the government with professionals, we will continue to squander the remnants of the Soviet legacy. Look who sits in the Ministry of Industry and Trade, and from here draw conclusions. It seems that the bulk of the government lives on Mars, and does not live in Russia. And the meaning of their "work" is to do more harm to Russia and its people. Sincerely.

[Antropos]

Without the "iron curtain" - vain attempts. Products of the same quality will always be in China and even cheaper in Europe. We spend a quarter of our resources on fighting the climate. And the consumer votes with a ruble. Only by depriving the consumer of the opportunity to purchase imports can one speak of the revival of industries.
Before you minus check your receipts. Calculate the cost of heating per meter and double it. And then multiply by 50-100 thousand (this is the average area of ​​the plants). And then multiply by the heating season. And you will receive the money that is spent abroad on modernization. And this is only heating ... And if you add different costs for the construction and maintenance of buildings in working condition ...
Everything that we invent today, tomorrow the Chinese will sell us half as much.

[Cpa]

Plants can be heated geothermally, placed underground, etc. And about the cost, think about how much the real cost of producing natural gas costs if in the early twentieth century they lit the streets in St. Petersburg?

[Antropos]

So will you personally go to work underground?
What does the gas have to do with it?

[Cpa]

Quote: Anthropos

So will you personally go to work underground?

People in the underground work underground, some research institutes, tokomaki, communication centers, again. There will be interesting and paid work, I’ll go.

Quote: Anthropos

What does the gas have to do with it?

You started talking about heating.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Anthropos

So will you personally go to work underground?

Why would he? There are others for this.

[cerbuk6155]

All strategic plants and enterprises must go to the state. And the development of the country should be planned, and not economic theft. If someone does not understand this, then he is either a narrow-minded person and poorly versed in the country's economy, or working for other people's Hostile States. And the demand from him must be appropriate.

[Samurai3X]

They made fun ...
Are you there in heaven soaring, generally aware of what level of life in Portugal is now? You can’t force me to go live there ...

[saag]

Quote: Samurai3X

You can’t force me to go there

And port? :-)

[shuhartred]

Quote: saag

And port? :-)

Eight Euros per bubble. And this is the cheapest. But I want to try.

[Bayonet]

The port is good there, I tried it! Well, of course "ours is better !!!". Yes?

[Farvil]

We at the authorities at all levels are full of saboteurs and it is time to clear ourselves of them, otherwise we will fly into the pipe.

[Metal bro]

yes you are the 5th column, not otherwise.

[samoletil18]

After reading the article and comments - the conclusion: there is a state, there is finance, there is interest. But there is a main factor - the lack of good governance and professionals to carry out the tasks. The second part of the harmful factor should be solved by therapeutic methods, the first - only surgically (but sparingly - someone must master the Russian Arctic)

[Forget]

or so-called zero perspectives

Well, so that there is more than zero, you need to export less oil and gas, and use it more inside ... and as for the machines, so Japan buys electrochemical machines from Russia, because they are the best in the world.

[Alex Danilov]

Quote: Velesovic

They woke up at last. And before this was not visible? The whole country saw, only the leadership did not notice. Or an overseas smoked rooster pecked in one place, and suddenly it became clear that almost all of the modern industry in the country was based on foreign equipment, which might not be at any moment? Better late than never. I hope this will come out of a real sense, and not just another zilch. And the program will not be curtailed as soon as we make peace with the Europeans.

Therefore, Russia should have EVERYTHING of its own. Up to bread, meat, milk, potatoes with lard + machine tools and everything else. With its workers, engineers, inventors and peasants. Is it really not clear that if this is not so, it’s foreign- will close or impose sanctions on all these machines + everything else, which Russia does not have, and all of Russia will be in the priest.
Maybe, you just need to start paying normally to all Russian Kulibins, yes workers, and at the same time teach young people. And so that these workers receive decent salaries, so that they want to work. And inventors should also be encouraged to work out their own country, in their own country, in Russia-embodied in life, and not advanced abroad, and Russia-dulu.
In the end, inculcate foreign specialists in Russia and train the Russians. Along the way, developing and encouraging Russian engineers and inventors and workers.
They themselves are to blame, they all got out and when the roasted cock pecked, then they realized it. Why are the rich in Russia only oligarchs and bandits? What, smart oligarchs are such engineers, doctors, teachers, builders, chemists, inventors ?? Yes, these are ordinary thieves. They haven’t created anything worthwhile. PEOPLE need to pay and encourage their inventions and work and develop. And not inventors pay pennies and their inventions are to be buried or sold abroad, undermining their own country and encouraging the development of a foreign country. The technological backwardness of Russia is similar to death.

[tolancop]

Quote: anomalocaris

I have always said and will say: an engineer who cannot do the work of a worker in his specialty is not an engineer, but a misunderstanding.

Sorry, in what specialty? I did not hear about a turner engineer, nor about a locksmith engineer. I saw the engineer by personnel myself, but this is from another opera.) We won’t climb into the jungle, take a simple one: metalworking. What do we have at a minimum: a locksmith, a turner, a milling machine operator, a puncher, a thermist, a blacksmith and ... enough is enough. To obtain more or less professional skills in any specialty (mastering the profession), a minimum of 3 years is required. Based on your thesis, an engineer needs at least 18 years to avoid becoming a misunderstanding. In the meantime, for these 18 years he will get from a locksmith to a blacksmith, but he will already lose 3/4 skills of a locksmith. And for sure, everything will be forgotten about maneuvering. Tk that it is not necessary to write nonsense. A good engineer should have an idea of ​​working specialties and nothing more. It’s not bad if he owns a certain craft, but he certainly won’t reach the present.

Quote: MetalBro

the engineer must show how to do, and not do for him. Any engineer coming from a university and having any experience can do everything for a worker. But the worker for the engineer never. ... And to do the job for the worker, no special brains are needed. Surely the engineer will not be able to do this?)

And this is nonsense. Poke me with your nose at an engineer who can work for, say, a 5th level locksmith. If it works out, then surely this engineer before the engineer was this 5th arrester.

Quote: anomalocaris

I did not say that an engineer should work instead of a worker. By the way, workers can often do the work of an engineer, do not underestimate the working class. And the fact that a lot of brains is not necessary, you are extremely mistaken ....

But I support THIS thesis as a whole. A highly skilled worker on some issues may well surpass the engineer. But only for SOME. Entirely not replace.
Why am I doing this. And to the fact that we need workers, and technologists, and engineers and OTC controllers ... EVERYTHING IS NEEDED. And everyone should do their own thing.

ps It is not written from the bulldozer. During it, it worked in real production. He began as a locksmith apprentice in the pilot production of one not the most frail scientific research institute. And I still remember warmly the years spent in working overalls.

[AlexA]

Quote: andj61

The Ivanovo plant was the foremost in the 80s in the USSR - and that is much worse than the Germans, but now it has fallen behind even more.

This is true. But if you think about the future of the country, worthy and interesting life for people in OUR (and not "this") country, then you need to strain. Don't expect a return throughout the year. Suffer. It will pay off.
But the problem is that ALL who make decisions, both economic and political, do not want to endure. They need a lot now. Here is the key problem.
And you can bring it to the world level. While it is possible.

[anomalocaris]

Quote: tolancop

And this is nonsense. Poke me with your nose at an engineer who can work for, say, a 5th level locksmith.

You can look at me, I have quite official crusts of a 6th level locksmith, I can work even better. I got them after graduation.

[Zomanus]

A shipyard is opening in our Big Stone or in Fokino. Invite workers. So, there the salary is scanty and they have already begun to delay it. So, what is next? I, the purchaser, office plankton. But I clearly understood, leaving the factory, that I needed such a profession that I could earn my bread crust always. And if a fitter of any rank is kicked out of the factory, it will be harder for him to find a job. My mother worked as a designer in the design bureau of the plant, where I myself also later locksmith. So regularly, students run to her every session, so that she would do the drafts for them. What kind of specialists will come out of them later. So what am I talking about. An intelligent person will not go to work in a stable, will not go to work for a penny. And we need such people at the factory. And they can only be attracted financially, since ideology is forbidden in our country.