Military Review

Sherlock's notes: in search of a defiled victory and 40 million dead at the front

73
Sherlock's notes: in search of a defiled victory and 40 million dead at the front



May faded into disrepair. But the restless anti-Russian and anti-Soviet parties are writing more and more nonsense. Below collected the main "facts" that present us with these dark forces.

A little background. 1939 hosted the Finnish campaign. For less than half a year, the Soviet army laid almost 1-1,3 million. While the Finns lost 70-100 thousand. Of course, this taught the Soviet authorities a great deal: the best scientists were repressed, the whole top of the army and many others. Well, when the data about the fascist threat came, the heads flew from the scouts ...

Remember the background, at the end of the article we will return to it. And now, in fact, breaking the points for convenience.

1. What was the Red Army before the war? It is clear that the remaining command was on vacation. The army itself was completely inefficient in all respects! Forcibly driven, untrained, unarmed, etc.

2. 22 Jun is coming ... What to do? Naturally, run! All clever Bolsheviks fled to the Urals, and those who are even smarter - abroad. But personally, Stalin went to the dacha (to swell). At this time, whole armies surrendered, hundreds of thousands of deserters fled every day ... And so on, up to Moscow. At this time, the NKVD, following the theory of "scorched earth", destroyed everything, right down to entire villages with the local population in addition.

3. What happened such that the Germans stopped near Moscow? It's simple: the Communists drove millions of prisoners (penal battalion) and those who could hold a rifle in their hands (including teenagers of both sexes). Hungry, armed with one rifle for three (well, if the cartridges were), they managed to stop the enemy’s well-armed and professional army. Discipline was supported by mass executions. And thousands ... For any wrongdoing.

4. Then lendliz arrived in time and secured the front on 50-80% weapons.

5. It was time to counterattack. It is clear that such an army did not want to go on the attack (as a whole and fight), therefore the offensive began with the opening of fire by a detachment of detachments (shot in the back). And so they drove the penal battalion of the Red Army to Berlin itself. And they drove straight! Directly on machine guns, on Tanks, on minefields, on river crossings without boats. They loved to please the authorities by taking cities for the holidays ...

6. It should be noted that the Soviet propaganda was so powerful and stifled the spirit of the people that the Red Army not only obediently went on building mines and machine guns, but in the territories liberated by the Germans, civilians and prisoners of war did not go against the Soviet regime.

7. Often overlooked by partisans. But this is rather a collective image of all the atrocities that are not inferior to the elite punitive detachments of the fascists (if they are completely unfounded): from the destruction of crops to the complete cutting out of all the living in the settlements.

8. It should also be noted the loss of civilians who died from repression, deportations, bombings, famine, in the gulag and other ills. You can count more than 45-50 million

Now back to the beginning. Remember our losses in the Finnish war? Ratio 10-18,5 times. But in that campaign the Soviet troops were still more or less armed and trained, and the enemy was no good for the troops of the Third Reich. So what terrible losses the USSR should have suffered in the Second World War? Obviously, more than 40 million cannon fodder will go with the "tactics" "by mines to the bunker" and "with the sword to the tank". If we take the coefficient for the Finnish war, without taking into account the professionalism of the Germans, it will 50-92,5 million!

Summing up: who among you still believes in this nonsense? I think the units. What veteran told like that? Not! So that amicably pseudo-disclosing helmet in a psychiatric hospital "drinking Bavarian beer with sausages" and we are waiting for the next warm May days.

Sources: various websites, forums and social. networks where this topic was covered.
Author:
73 comments
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  1. hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 26 May 2014 09: 07
    +29
    "You have to be a very brave person to be a coward in the Red Army"
    1. SS68SS
      SS68SS 26 May 2014 09: 34
      +14
      P.I.E.D.E.T., do not toss the bags. So their tongue is definitely boneless. Therefore, they lick the ass for their overseas owners. Sometimes it’s so deep that they themselves cannot pull it out. Kick should be given so as not to lie .... Tfu .....
      1. Sunjar
        Sunjar 26 May 2014 10: 33
        +6
        Quote: author
        amicably pseudo-disclosing helmet in a psychiatric hospital "drinking Bavarian beer with sausages"


        No, it’s better for them to pour this beer and sausages in guzno and stuff it, it’s so European.
        1. sso-xnumx
          sso-xnumx 26 May 2014 17: 50
          +3
          Yeah! Each in a tank with Bavarian beer, and on top of 200 kg of Bavarian sausages and a hatch to close the castle. Let them rejoice ...
      2. yushch
        yushch 26 May 2014 13: 31
        +7
        In my opinion now. Only a very not distant person will believe the slander of all kinds of egsperdov. With the current availability of primary sources, the conclusions should be unambiguous. And about the fact that in all wars we "filled up the opponents with corpses" can only be said by a traitor to Russia and a down-and-out thing.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. SS68SS
      SS68SS 26 May 2014 09: 42
      +32
      My grandfather told me how he fought. How wounded and shell-shocked. How they were friends and loved in the war. How did they hate the Nazis after they saw with their own eyes what these creatures were doing on the territory of the USSR. How the commanders cooled the anger and hatred of the soldiers, whose family died in the occupation, so as not to grind Germany and Europe into powder (to a heap, so that it was discouraging). I told a lot. This is the TRUTH and HISTORY. And these "psakam" and the scribblers are simply told what to write. They are "corrupt". The one who pays the most will be "laid down".
      1. Sanglier
        Sanglier 26 May 2014 10: 55
        +22
        My wife’s grandfather mourned until the end of his life that he had to be ordered to shoot two of his soldiers because they had raped a German woman in Germany. For him, it became an indelible stain on his conscience. This is a person awarded 6 orders, not counting medals !!! A little off topic, but ...
        1. wax
          wax 26 May 2014 14: 18
          +6
          Yes. Russians are not Anglo-Saxons. And what a paradox - dusting Dresden, who arranged the atomic apocalypse in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as best friends.
          And these German s ... ki make claims to the Russians that they were raped by the Russians (without driving them into brothels on pain of death with the norms of "serving" valiant warriors for a piece of bread, as did the "civilized" nations, including the Germans themselves ). Countries of Psaki!
    4. CALL.
      CALL. 26 May 2014 09: 44
      +14
      In 1939, the Finnish campaign took place. In less than half a year, the Soviet army put in nearly 1-1,3 million. While the Finns lost 70-100 thousand.

      Losses of Finland: - Military -
      According to an official statement published in the Finnish press on May 23, 1940, the total irretrievable losses of the Finnish army during the war amounted to 19 576 killed and 3263 missing (total - 22 839 people).
      According to modern estimates: -
      killed - approx. 26 thousand people (according to Soviet data of 1940 - 85 thousand people);
      wounded - 40 thousand people. (according to Soviet data of 1940 - 250 thousand people.);
      prisoners - 1000 people.
      A total of 26 Finnish troops were killed.
      Losses of the USSR: - The first official figures of Soviet losses in the war were published at a session of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on March 26, 1940: 48 dead and 475 wounded, sick and frostbite.
      According to reports from the troops on 15.03.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX:
      wounded, sick, frostbite - 248 090;
      killed and died at the stages of sanitary evacuation - 65;
      died in hospitals - 15 921;
      missing - 14 043;
      total irretrievable loss - 95 348.
      So to summarize. What we have?
      Data on losses of the Red Army is overstated. The data on the losses of our opponents is underestimated.
      http://katmoor.livejournal.com/230244.html
      1. tank64rus
        tank64rus 26 May 2014 10: 33
        +12
        Military science provides a similar ratio of losses. The attacker usually suffers losses three times more than the defender. This is a classic. Divide the losses of the USSR and Finland, we get the ratio of 3,3. Everything is consistent.
        1. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx 26 May 2014 13: 09
          +2
          Quote: tank64rus
          Military science provides a similar ratio of losses. The attacker usually suffers losses three times more than the defender. This is a classic.


          Perhaps once it was, but in WWII and the Red Army, and the Wehrmacht suffered more losses during the retreat than when they advanced.
          Irreversible losses of the Red Army in years as a percentage:
          1941 - 27,8
          1942 - 28,9
          1943 - 20,5
          1944 - 15,6
          1945 - 7,1
        2. Bakht
          Bakht 26 May 2014 21: 32
          +3
          Quote: tank64rus
          Military science provides a similar ratio of losses. The attacker usually suffers losses three times more than the defender. This is a classic. Divide the losses of the USSR and Finland, we get the ratio of 3,3. Everything is consistent.

          This is not true. Tired of these three-fold degree. According to the charters, a triple advantage over the defender is required. But the losses can vary greatly. A failed attack and advancing ones suffer losses of more than three times the defenders. If there was a breakthrough of the front line and the enemy was surrounded. Then the losses of the defenders can be 10 times greater than the advancing. An example is Operation Bagration. The artillery fist was so powerful that, according to soldiers, they often went on the attack to their full height without even bending down. The enemy was so demoralized that he could not even shoot. The losses of the attackers were much less than the defenders. And as a result, the entire (ALL) Army Center Group ceased to exist. And these are hundreds of thousands of soldiers. 40 of them even saw Moscow. So the loss ratio of 000: 1 does not reflect reality.
      2. tank64rus
        tank64rus 26 May 2014 10: 33
        -1
        Military science provides a similar ratio of losses. The attacker usually suffers losses three times more than the defender. This is a classic. Divide the losses of the USSR and Finland, we get the ratio of 3,3. Everything is consistent.
      3. yehat
        yehat 26 May 2014 10: 44
        +10
        One more detail should be noted: in the Finnish company, field medical units were not deployed and the Red Army suffered huge losses precisely because of this.
        also, heavy losses were suffered due to a complete misunderstanding of the tactics of warfare.
        more than once the Finns captured the troops superior to them, because they just sat still and stupidly ran out of supplies, and the commander did not give any orders except to stand to death. Grandfather said that about a third died because they could not get out of the shelling and froze.
        In general, the Finnish company is an example of the monstrous incompetence of the commanders of the Red Army.
        1. dzau
          dzau 26 May 2014 11: 56
          +2
          How could they be competent when the character of modern warfare was mastered on the move at that time?

          The Germans learned "from cats", having received serious experience first in Spain (their participation in that conflict is incomparable with the Soviet one), Poland; having left (and also learned) on it in France.

          Our "cats" ran out right after Mongolia. And the winter porridge in the swamps and forests, stuffed with pillboxes, did not imply "sparing" training.
        2. Turkir
          Turkir 26 May 2014 14: 21
          +3
          My father fought in Finland. Your comments are true.
          Frosts were terrible.
          1. yehat
            yehat 26 May 2014 16: 10
            +3
            it was not terrible frosts, but the conditions of the soldiers were such.
            Frosts were, but nothing more.
            The soldiers had problems with food, heating, with an elementary constant stay on the street - at that time Zhukov’s reforms (after the experience of clashes with the Japanese) related to logistics were not gaining momentum. And the clothes were standard - overcoats, etc.
            All this led to the fact that frost played a role.
            After all, they gathered for a Finnish company as an easy walk - by analogy with Poland.
            1. Sour
              Sour 26 May 2014 17: 21
              +1
              Quote: yehat
              Frosts were, but nothing more.

              The equipment was not ready for frosts.
              Back in the 70s, I read the memoirs of some Soviet aviator (I can no longer remember the name). He wrote that during that war the mechanics at the airfields could not start the engines on the TB-3 from the cold, and oil tanks burst on the SB-type bombers from the cold. We got out of the situation by draining the oil from the engines after landing, then heating them on fires before starting and filling them again. It was a loss in time, but the combat mission was carried out. They scolded Tupolev: "Did he test airplanes in Africa ???" And the abbreviation SB was deciphered as "mediocre bastard."
              And the figures for the losses are clearly overpriced and taken from the ceiling. To listen to some historians, this is how more people died in the Second World War than could serve in the army.
              This, incidentally, and Hitler noticed. In January 1945, Guderian reported to him that the Russians had about 2 million soldiers and officers against the Vistula Army Group, almost a million in the Carpathians, and one and a half million in the Balkans. He said irritably: "Don't fool me, Guderian. If you believe your generals' reports about Russian losses, they shouldn't have any troops at all right now."
      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 26 May 2014 10: 44
        +7
        liberals with numbers, in principle, are at odds, as a rule, they try to use round numbers and, accordingly, huge, somehow the "great" historian SVONIDZE declared losses as 1/10, was not lazy and counted, it turned out that the Germans managed to kill several times more what was called to the Red Army
        1. yehat
          yehat 26 May 2014 15: 39
          0
          Svanidze had in mind all the losses: civilian population + army
          moreover, the composition of the forces opposing the Germans included not only the Red Army,
          as well as partisans, for example.
      5. The comment was deleted.
      6. matross
        matross 26 May 2014 11: 40
        +2
        Quote: Z.O.V.
        Data on losses of the Red Army is overstated. The data on the losses of our opponents is underestimated.

        The contingent, which spreads nonsense and believes in them, is not interested in real data on the losses of the parties. Now everyone who wants to know the truth has the opportunity to learn and evaluate it. These really do not need them, they will endlessly talk with drooling on their chests and rolling their eyes about penal battalions with detachments and rifles for three. Their religion is a lie, Stalin created a whole GULAG for them, and then evil didn’t come out of lime ... Now, Stalin’s humanism comes to us sideways, the bitch’s seed is surviving ...
      7. smile
        smile 26 May 2014 16: 51
        +1
        CALL.
        Even these official Finnish data are clearly underestimated. According to Finnish historians, for example, Hakkala, Mannerheim could not hold out for several days before the landing of the Anglo-French expeditionary force, since the loss of Finnish infantry amounted to three quarters of the personnel. Like this. Nevertheless, defending official data on the losses of Finland, he says that the Finns had infantry ... 150 thousand ...... mother, the Finns, before the war, put under the arms of half a million soldiers in the Army and their SS Shyutskor. And this is without taking into account those called up during the war. Thus, who then were not accounted for by Hakkkala 0 thousand? Astronauts? Okay. even if you pull yourself hard on those who were not foot soldiers. who did not hold a rifle in their hands can be attributed one hundred thousand, but hardly more. But the losses (total) of three quarters of four hundred thousand already look completely different. And only this can explain the fact. that the Finns did not continue the resistance. There was no one to fight, we actually destroyed the Finnish army.
        We have a "historian" like Svanidze - V.P. Galitsky. in 1999 he published the book Finnish prisoners of war in the NKVD camps. He tells how our evil commissars tortured them there. Poor fellow crawled all our and the Finnish archives, which the Finns joyfully opened to him. And this bungler (since the goal was to pour mud on us), without thinking, leads the losses of the parties not only to prisoners, but also general ones, and not only our bloated ones, but also, apparently, genuine Finnish ones. They are as follows: the total losses of the USSR - 285 thousand people, Finland - 250 thousand. Killed and missing: the USSR - 90 thousand people, Finland - 95 thousand people. Something seems to me. that these are more reliable figures - otherwise there is nothing to explain their refusal to war.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 26 May 2014 21: 38
          +3
          Quote: smile

          Absolutely the right approach. If the losses of the Finns were 26 people from the half-million army, then what prevented them from continuing the war? The truth is that the Finnish army overcame and could not resist. The Mannerheim Line was broken. Do not give up the Finns immediately and in a week the red flag would fly over Helsinki. This is the truth. The losses of the Red Army were large, but only in the first period of the war. In February-March 000, the Red Army had the Finnish army in any position and in any way.
    5. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 26 May 2014 14: 50
      +2
      for each paragraph of this article, the one who is a vys.s.r.a.l chopped in a trough into small pieces, and give the rest to pigs ... cattle. am
  2. Good cat
    Good cat 26 May 2014 09: 08
    +9
    A very good answer to all liberals, Medinsky's book "The War 1939-1945. Myths"
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. sscha
      sscha 26 May 2014 10: 06
      +4
      So they read them !!!!! They at least s.sy. in the eyes - all God's dew !!
      1. Sunjar
        Sunjar 26 May 2014 10: 35
        +2
        Quote: sscha
        They at least s.sy. in the eyes - all God's dew !!


        The main thing is when you piss into their eyes so that everyone else can see it, and those who do not care for God's dew, it’s their problem. For us they will be pissed bastards.
    3. qwert
      qwert 26 May 2014 12: 02
      +4
      Medina is still a dude. Under the guise of telling the truth, he often distorts in a liberal manner. Many consider him more terrible than the same Suvorov and Radzinsky. Since this is a wolf dressing in sheep's clothing. Read it. He noted that many conclusions about political decisions of that time were distorted and simplified. Soviet diplomats often look like idiots. And if you look at the present, then in our history there has never been such a diplomatic work as the one from 1939 to 1946. Not a single verified step, not a single mistake.
      Stalin’s decisions are also explained by the everyday level. And there, after all, the set of dozens of factors was taken into account.
    4. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri 26 May 2014 14: 52
      0
      Medinsky is not needed. A former MMM advertiser who has become a "culture-creator" is strange. Yes, his "works" are sprinkled by "literary blacks".

      Read the original documents, since they are now declassified and everyone has access to the Main Military Archive.

      Or read this work of Colonel General G.F.Krivosheev:
      http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt
      - here are statistics for all wars of the XX century
  3. Oleg Sobol
    Oleg Sobol 26 May 2014 09: 12
    -2
    Sources: various websites, forums and social. networks where this topic was covered.

    A crazy, propaganda article ...
    The "author" is likened to the voice of the State Department "Psaki", citing evidence of the Bearded Man, as the presence of Russia, referring to the abundance of certain forums (???), all kinds of sites (???) and social networks (!!!) ...
    "Great" alignment.
    And the loss figures in 1-1,3mln dead, it's just a masterpiece! fool
    P.S. Who pluses this article, take the trouble to open Wikipedia, and even turn on Brains !!!
    1. Sasha_Bykov
      Sasha_Bykov 26 May 2014 09: 48
      +11
      1) another "authoritative" source,
      2) you did not understand the meaning of the article, and the second tells that these figures are not worth it, and are stupidly invented by Western false propaganda
    2. sscha
      sscha 26 May 2014 10: 08
      +4
      Please read the very first bold italic article ...
      Have you read? Carefully? Good luck hi
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 26 May 2014 10: 48
      +4
      Quote: Oleg Sobol
      A crazy, propaganda article ...
      The "author" is likened to the voice of the State Department "Psaki", citing evidence of the Bearded Man, as the presence of Russia, referring to the abundance of certain forums (???), all kinds of sites (???) and social networks (!!!) ...
      "Great" alignment.
      And the loss figures of 1-1,3 million dead, it's just a masterpiece!

      Do not be lazy and carefully re-read the article, so as not to ascribe to the author other people's claims
    5. Turkir
      Turkir 26 May 2014 14: 24
      +3
      Read more carefully. wink
      The author writes about how much nonsense, lies about the war are crammed on the Internet and calls for more attention.
  4. Ptaha
    Ptaha 26 May 2014 09: 13
    +4
    You look, Khrushchev's nonsense is still sitting in the minds of morons.
    "The Finnish campaign took place in 1939. In less than half a year, the Soviet army laid almost 1-1,3 million..." And with the small, apparently, all 40 million.
    I do not understand why post someone's nonsense?
  5. Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 26 May 2014 09: 27
    +2
    And the figure is like a dough - growing from year to year ...
  6. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 26 May 2014 09: 33
    +5
    from the Don.
    And my grandmothers, mother and aunts remained alive in the occupation.: Where was the NKVD ?: fellow
  7. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 26 May 2014 09: 33
    +10
    Well, read carefully, because this is not an invention of the author, but he just brought "masterpieces" of scum trying to desecrate our VICTORY! And there is no need to scold the author, who, just like us, is insulted and outraged by the "works" of all kinds of "auditors" of our glorious past. My grandfather fought near Moscow, in the most difficult days and never once mentioned any detachments, etc. These provocateurs (about whom the author speaks) do not know the elementary things about the creation of "detachments": when, where and from whom they were created, and you pounced on the article without understanding, eh ...
    1. dr.star75
      dr.star75 26 May 2014 14: 45
      0
      The detachments appeared somewhere in December 41 years near Moscow, moreover with the Germans. We have 0.5years later. In the summer of 42.
  8. papont64
    papont64 26 May 2014 09: 34
    +2
    Of course, we had losses, but not 70% of the population of the USSR.
  9. saigon
    saigon 26 May 2014 09: 40
    +1
    Aftir, if you write nonsense, then God bless you. In a Finnish company, 1-1.3 million so to vkidku 50-60 divisions and to push them there in the north to cram what they eat there will it be? Besides tyrneta and saitaf there is such a trifle as the staffing of the rifle division, and the numbers of divisions participating in the battles. It’s necessary to think and not to write crap the whole brain is turned on and it will turn off turn off Maybe it will help.
    1. Sasha_Bykov
      Sasha_Bykov 26 May 2014 09: 46
      +6
      read it well, an article with SARKASM!
      1. wax
        wax 26 May 2014 14: 25
        0
        A careful reading reveals that an article with primitive (!) Sarcasm would not be better written.
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 26 May 2014 10: 50
      +3
      Quote: saigon
      Aftir, if you write nonsense, then God bless you. In the Finnish company, 1-1.3 million so offhand 50-60 divisions and push them there in the north to cram

      PANCAKE!!!!!
      read the article carefully !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    3. 97110
      97110 26 May 2014 11: 46
      +1
      Uncle, you button "brains on." push. Well?
    4. The comment was deleted.
  10. maratenok
    maratenok 26 May 2014 10: 00
    -1
    1 million soldiers would stupidly throw caps over the whole of Finland)
    1. yehat
      yehat 26 May 2014 10: 53
      +1
      actually it was. The Finns had extremely limited forces and they could only defend in 3 directions. But the Red Army attacked on a wide front and went around them from the north. If this bypass was not there, who knows how many more would be killed in frontal unsecured attacks and in the cold.
      In general, if the Finns were taken seriously, the losses would have been much smaller.
      Hat-making and careerists were very expensive.
  11. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 26 May 2014 10: 02
    +1
    But why trifle? There will soon be more, billions of dollars in losses at the front on the very first day of the war, one rifle per 10, a shorter division, the rest have shovels from the shovels, a detachment was behind every Red Army soldier, and a few million more were detached during the war man. Stalin was an idiot and could only shoot and other other things. How did they win? The stump is clear that you can’t defeat a stupid rush even in a computer game, where at least there is a balance. Not to mention reality, which much harder.
    1. BYV
      BYV 27 May 2014 03: 08
      0
      Quote: Standard Oil
      The stump is clear that a stupid rush, even in a computer game, where at least there is a balance, cannot be defeated.

      Judging by your terms, I can even guess what kind of computer game in question. wink hi
  12. zzzeka
    zzzeka 26 May 2014 10: 17
    +1
    The losses of the Red Army and Finland were equal, about 250. However, especially gifted for some reason do not say that the losses of Finland are equal to the size of its army.
    1. yehat
      yehat 26 May 2014 16: 29
      +2
      at the time of the surrender, the Finns had no reserves at all, the linear parts were very thin. The artillery a month earlier almost ended with ammunition - rarely shot. There were losses in aviation, almost all the fortifications at the border were destroyed, etc.
      The Red Army advanced in several directions, and the Finnish infantry units were not so mobile as to plug holes. If we take into account the fact that before the start of the incident they had almost no heavy weapons, it is clear that they simply could not hold on.
  13. mackonya
    mackonya 26 May 2014 10: 19
    0
    Well, I do not completely agree with the author of the article, although the truth is that the Finnish campaign, although it ended in victory, was as a result of one of the defeats of the command. One of the generals later said: We have captured exactly so many Finnish lands to bury our fallen soldiers. Although of course the Petsamo field was strategically important for the USSR in the future.
    1. zzzeka
      zzzeka 26 May 2014 10: 43
      +1
      The PURPOSE of military action was not "land grabbing", that is the whole answer.
      What can be questions about victory / defeat when the Finnish side surrendered.
    2. zzzeka
      zzzeka 26 May 2014 10: 43
      0
      The PURPOSE of military action was not "land grabbing", that is the whole answer.
      What can be questions about victory / defeat when the Finnish side surrendered.
  14. vovan50
    vovan50 26 May 2014 10: 19
    +1
    Unfortunately, not everything is true that they write on Wikipedia, I was convinced more than once.
    1. Drednout
      Drednout 26 May 2014 11: 59
      +1
      Quote: vovan50
      Unfortunately, not everything is true.

      Maybe not unfortunately? Maybe sometimes you need to think with your own head?
      1. qwert
        qwert 26 May 2014 12: 13
        0
        I’ll think about it, but the boys, that they’re standing near the entrance will not think.
        And if they were showing normal films in the cinema, then without even thinking, they would know ....
  15. Djozz
    Djozz 26 May 2014 10: 38
    +5
    The question arises - why then did the Finnish army surrender with such "low" losses? Historian V.P. Galitsky (chronic liberal democrat) in 1997 poured a book "Finnish prisoners of war in the camps of the NKVD" rummaging in our archives, he, without thinking, cited the total losses of both sides. They are as follows, the total losses of the USSR - 285 tons of people, Finland - 250 thousand people. Killed and missing in the USSR-90 thousand people, in Finland-95 thousand people. Source Galitsky V.P. Finnish prisoners of war in the camps of the NKVD-M. Grail 1997, p. 36
  16. Giant thought
    Giant thought 26 May 2014 10: 42
    +1
    Liars have always been, at all times. And now they are. Therefore, looking at their lies, it is necessary to spit in their imaginary eyes, send them in three letters, and go about their business, not noticing this very lie.
  17. Nomad
    Nomad 26 May 2014 11: 55
    +4
    Who has not read, I. Pykhalov "The Great Oblaganny War". There, all these myths are sorted out and refuted with figures and documents.
    1. Zymran
      Zymran 26 May 2014 12: 06
      +3
      Pykhalov has a new book "Lies and Truth about the Great Patriotic War". There, the issue of losses has been studied quite meticulously.
  18. qwert
    qwert 26 May 2014 12: 10
    +4
    The main question ... Why does PUTIN and the GOVERNMENT condone and allow the publication of such books and MAJOR_WAYS WHY PLEASE REMOVE FILMS about the fact that our grandfathers who ended the war in Berlin were allegedly cattle ?????
    All of these nubs undermine the respect of the motherland and ancestors among young people. They learn to be ashamed of their country and not love it. And what happens to the camp, in which the defenders destroyed the feeling of patriotism ??? Isn't that jurisdictional? This is the result of undermining the country's defense.
    All these creators must be judged: the Penal Battalion, the Citadel, and almost any film about the war filmed from 1990 of the year. I came across one exception of everything - the Brest Fortress, and then, and in it there was a false remark, like a spit in the soul
    1. parus2nik
      parus2nik 26 May 2014 13: 49
      +1
      Judging and imprisoning is not our method .. there should be criticism and good criticism .. and at the level of the ministry of culture. And we don’t have it .. how it does not work out, some rubbish .. just a lot of enthusiastic responses ..
    2. yehat
      yehat 26 May 2014 18: 06
      +1
      Quote: qwert
      The main question ... Why does PUTIN and the GOVERNMENT condone and allow the publication of such books and MAJOR_WAYS WHY PLEASE REMOVE FILMS about the fact that our grandfathers who ended the war in Berlin were allegedly cattle ?????

      there were all kinds of things, but to speak only half-truths is vile.
      There were heavis, there were, there were urki, there were rapists and alarmists, there were cowards,
      were hit, but the war of many forced us to look at life differently and completely different people came to Berlin who knew and appreciated the price of good.
      BUT if the parents were not lazy and spent at least 10 minutes telling their children, it would not care for films and any propaganda!
  19. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 26 May 2014 12: 51
    +3
    From what trash heap did you get this next MRAZ with its "truth about the war"?

  20. vladstro
    vladstro 26 May 2014 13: 18
    +3
    A lot of this nonsense will be written, but such scribblers need to be fought with their own methods, there are no 10 books about the heroes of the front for one of their own scammed books, and films are appropriate to shoot, such as the Liberation of Ozerov, or They fought for the Motherland, with modern special effects, advertising to serve a good one, the young people look at it and think about it. And then they filmed all sorts of penalties, bastards, and Bondarchuk's Stalingrad is some sluggish and tasteless, the citadel is generally a separate topic. Anyone who was brought up on normal films and will himself be a normally thinking person. And now they have mixed everything into a mess and don’t know how to get out of it. To spread the facts from the archives, build your own true story, otherwise the NKVD, the detachment, etc. Correctly said Bashar al-Assad “if the people didn’t support me, I could not to be in Damascus "and here, if the people had not risen in 20, there would have been no Russia now. And let the liberoids write, they are paid for it, only all their writings will go to the Russian restrooms, nor that it is no longer fit.
  21. promt26
    promt26 26 May 2014 13: 36
    +1
    Lied, so lied! What for!? Bold minus!
  22. parus2nik
    parus2nik 26 May 2014 13: 45
    +4
    I remember .. one "researcher" gave such statistics that they say the losses of the Red Army compared to the losses of the Wehrmacht for the entire war were 10: 1 .. I was horrified .. and then presented such a picture, according to these statistics .. 10 Red Army soldiers in defense .. these 10 are one German .. and they, well, they can't get into him, but from one rifle for three .. Another picture .. the RKKA is on the offensive .. 10 people are attacking the area, and there is one German ..he shoots so skillfully that he kills all 10, and the next 10 are already taking this German prisoner .. If so .. how Sevastopol held the defense for 250 days .. yielding to the enemy in manpower and armament, the same Sevastopol was liberated in 5 days .. with minimal losses .. Therefore, when you read such nonsense, think sometimes, it's useful ..
    1. yehat
      yehat 26 May 2014 14: 08
      +1
      it was at the beginning of the war. One environment under Kiev is worth.
      You forgot one detail. With a ratio of 1 German to 10 Russians:
      Of the 30 Russians, 9 were on the defenses of ANOTHER border, 9 were on the march to the front, 2 more were on the march to their position, 3 had no weapons, 3 had equipment broken or no supplies, 3 had no orders. Total defended: 1 against 2 Germans. (1 on the march or logistics support)
      1. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 26 May 2014 21: 37
        0
        Quote: yehat
        You forgot one detail.

        Yes, not one detail, there will be more. The scalpel was the Luftwaffe, focused on the decisive direction, when the Soviet Air Force burned the service life in secondary directions. In support of ONE pilot of the Luftwaffe, 15 signalmen worked. The Red Army had grown to self-propelled artillery installations by about 1943. Each Wehrmacht infantry platoon had a full-time topographer who issued target designations for the artillery / Luftwaffe. The structure of the German motorized division was better than the structure of the Red Army corps. Until the end of 1943, the interaction of the combat arms of the Germans was better than that of the Red Army.
        1. Predator
          Predator 26 May 2014 23: 18
          0
          There were no topographers in the platoon of the Wehrmacht! Like radio operators! The communications company was only in the infantry regiment and was distributed among the battalions in case of need, as was telephone communications. Air and art observer-spotters directly stood out from the Luftwaffe and artillery regiments.
    2. Predator
      Predator 26 May 2014 23: 02
      0
      I don’t remember where I looked, the conversation was about the total losses of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army for the period 41-45, with the application of information and documents, so the experts came to the conclusion and convincingly proved that the losses on both sides were just over 9 million people, t .e 1: 1, and the rest are civilians.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 26 May 2014 23: 18
        0
        Quote: Predator
        I don’t remember where I looked, the conversation was about the total losses of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army for the period 41-45, with the application of information and documents, so the experts came to the conclusion and convincingly proved that the losses on both sides were just over 9 million people, t .e 1: 1, and the rest are civilians.

        We take Keitel’s memoirs. What he managed to write to the gallows. I have on a shelf. He wrote from memory and in the 46th hardly lied much. He needed to replenish the front. And so he wrote that the losses of the Wehrmacht monthly amounted to 150 thousand people. This is not counting those months when there were major battles. We multiply and receive losses of 9-10 million people. Now we take reference books and we look. 21 million people were called up to the Wehrmacht. The number of German armed forces at the beginning of the 45th year is seen in 5-6 million people. We take one from the other and get 15 million losses. Keitel did not care whether they were wounded or killed. He needed to maintain the number of divisions. It is without a civilian population.
        Now we take the USSR. 34 million people have been called up. The number of the Red Army at the beginning of the 45th order of 15 million people. We have a loss of 19 million. A lot of course. But there is no question of any heaping up with corpses.

        I do not pretend to be accurate. But roughly the situation is this.
        1. smile
          smile 27 May 2014 02: 34
          +2
          Bakht
          Can I add a little to your "arithmetic"?
          Of the 34 million who were put under arms, our army from June 22, 41 to September 1, 45 sent 24 million soldiers.
          The Nazis should be at least two million soldiers of the allies of Germany, with whom we had to deal. As well as volunteers from occupied countries - we alone Poles-volunteers took one and a half times more than Italians.
          And one should take into account the deliberate destruction by the Germans of our prisoners - we did not destroy the prisoners intentionally.
          And also keep in mind that pedagogy often tells a lie. For example, according to some reports, if we count all the Germans put under arms, including the called-up ethnic Germans from France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc., then the total number reaches 24 million.
          Thus, the picture becomes fundamentally different. Such simplifications often lead to a significant distortion of what you call the "situation."
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 27 May 2014 02: 43
            +2
            Quote: smile
            Can I add a little to your "arithmetic"?

            Greetings, smile!
            hi
            I was always touched by lovers of algebra to check harmony wassat
            That's how simple it is: multiplied, subtracted, added laughing
          2. Bakht
            Bakht 27 May 2014 19: 19
            0
            Quote: smile

            Add-ons are welcome. I didn’t say it was true. Of course I have simple "arithmetic". There is a lot to add. These are the 3rd and 4th Romanian armies, the 2nd Hungarian, the 2nd Italian, the Finnish army. I no longer count separate divisions. A trifle. A lot of volunteers from all over Europe. In total, all of Europe with a population of 170 million fought against the USSR with a population of 400 million people. Moreover, even if they did not fight, the products were issued regularly. During the short time that Heydrich was the protector of the Czech Republic, labor productivity in Czech factories was higher than in German ones.

            I just put and question the thesis "filled up with corpses." So we're talking about the same thing. It's just that I greatly simplified the calculations.
  23. yehat
    yehat 26 May 2014 14: 01
    +2
    Quote: dzau
    How could they be competent when the character of modern warfare was mastered on the move at that time?

    nothing like this! the character of the fortified area of ​​the Manerheim line was created exactly according to the canons of the First World War and there was experience in successfully breaking through these fortifications (and different in different countries), which had to be simply applied before training and equipping the troops. I do not want to describe in detail all the problems that have arisen, I will only say that for the Red Army almost all the pillboxes turned out to be surprises that were not noticed by tactical intelligence. This is all the more strange because their number and features could be understood from an analysis of the Finnish pre-war budget for the defense industry and the leadership EXACTLY KNEW that they are.
    As for the nature of maneuver warfare, in that area this was ruled out by the Mannerheim line and the terrain surrounding it.
    1. wax
      wax 26 May 2014 14: 39
      0
      The rearmament of the Red Army was just unfolding. But the threat to Leningrad had to be eliminated in advance. Which was done and played an important role in the war with Germany and its satellites. The first pancake of the military operation at the European theater came out lumpy, but, nevertheless, was baked and ended with the surrender of Finland. And the necessary conclusions were made. In 1945, the war of the USSR ended with the surrender of Germany.
      Only a fool is interested in the guilt of other people
      Carl Jung
      1. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 26 May 2014 21: 45
        0
        Quote: Wax
        But the threat to Leningrad had to be eliminated in advance. Which was done and played an important role in the war with Germany and its satellites.

        Exactly! The border at Vyborg = the loss of Leningrad = the transfer of the liberated divisions of von Leeb to the Moscow direction and the very deplorable state of the Red Army troops in the battle for Moscow. It was the biggest battle of World War II! Here, even a "straw" that fell on a camel's back could break its back.
  24. Svyatopolk
    Svyatopolk 26 May 2014 14: 20
    0
    Yes, on all sorts of sites and forums with social networks they sometimes write this that it is just right to put these hackers in a psychiatric hospital. No wonder my wife says that the Internet is a big dump. Of course, I am not so categorical, but there is indeed a lot of idiocy, lies and hostile statements. There is also a "fifth column" who writes and writes a lot of American and Geyrop staff propagandists, working out the "green" from the State Department.
    It's just that everything written HERE must be "sifted through a sieve." Although this "sieve" is not all have, especially young people and youths with shkolota. Nowadays, few sites are adequate, but many have shown their rotten insides and enemy essence. Perhaps the best of the patriotic sites right now is topwar.ru, where I read posts. And hostile persons should simply be expelled abroad, since they "work" for it. Why the hell then live in a country that you hate, you hate its real citizens. Scratch to americosia, gayjop, anywhere, just don't stink here.
  25. hrapon
    hrapon 26 May 2014 16: 09
    +1
    Why quote at all, and as a result, spread this lie?
    Is this the author's thoughtlessness or a cunning form of "material presentation"?
  26. cerbuk6155
    cerbuk6155 26 May 2014 16: 11
    0
    I put the article minus, for the blatant lie, and falsification of data. negative fool soldier
  27. yehat
    yehat 26 May 2014 16: 19
    +2
    Quote: Wax
    The rearmament of the Red Army was just unfolding. But the threat to Leningrad had to be eliminated in advance. Which was done and played an important role in the war with Germany and its satellites. The first pancake of the military operation at the European theater came out lumpy, but, nevertheless, was baked and ended with the surrender of Finland. And the necessary conclusions were made. In 1945, the war of the USSR ended with the surrender of Germany.
    Only a fool is interested in the guilt of other people
    Carl Jung

    conclusions were made, but nothing else was done.
    Half a year passed, but in Belarus the organization of the army was simply disastrous.
    in Ukraine is not much better.
    even one of the most combat-ready - the fleet, and he made a lot of mistakes at the beginning of the war
    In aviation, the situation improved somewhat, but was far from normal.
    As before, intelligence and data exchange between headquarters was disgustingly organized.
    It was very well felt in the 41st when they only casually noticed a tank column of Germans 50 km from Moscow.
  28. raven75
    raven75 26 May 2014 17: 01
    0
    The author of the article is well done, so that it would be clearer for us what exactly liberals think of the Great Patriotic War in the West and the small town patients who are sick and tired, gathered all the nonsense together and put them in a short article. It is not entirely clear why the people of the article are apparently minus the article, without understanding, in a fever.
  29. Snoop
    Snoop 26 May 2014 17: 28
    +1
    Svanidze has already baked on, even those people who are not keen on military history and then fade over him. Judging by friends. And on TV they stubbornly hammer all their stuff ... they threw corpses, corpses ...
  30. mark2
    mark2 26 May 2014 17: 55
    +1
    I remember, about 5-6 years ago, I came across how I downloaded the data and conditions for breaking the Mannerheim line into a military computer: temperature, depth of defense, density, rear support, snow depth, etc. So this computer produced the result, that without a nuclear strike it is impossible to break through the Finnish defense line. And you say the losses and the army of the Red Army was not prepared!
    1. Sour
      Sour 26 May 2014 18: 30
      0
      Historical sources (current) often exaggerate the impenetrability of Finnish pillboxes. Not all of them were of the "ensemble" type, but even such were quite vulnerable.
      From the memoirs of K.A. Meretskova.
      And still, the bunkers were the most annoying. We hit them, we beat, but we can’t destroy them, because shells do not penetrate them ...
      ... I received an order to directly lead the reconnaissance battle and to find out what the secrets of Finnish bunkers are. I ordered this reconnaissance in three directions. We established where and how many bunkers are available. But what are they? He called the military engineer with a group of sappers and set the task to penetrate the enemy rear, blow up the pillbox, examine its cover, and bring a piece of concrete for research. Then we sent this piece to Moscow. The research institute carried out analyzes and reported: cement - grade "600".
      That is why light artillery did not break through concrete. In addition, it turned out that for many bunkers, battle casemates were covered from several embrasures with armored plates in several layers, and the thickness of reinforced concrete walls and coatings was 1,5 - 2 meters, and they were additionally covered with a 2-3-meter layer of compacted soil.
      I consulted with Voronov. We decided to shoot aiming guns of high power. They brought artillery of the reserve of the main command closer to the front edge, with a caliber of 203 - 280 millimeters, and began to hit the bunkers and their embrasures with direct fire. Things went right away. Then I had to deal with the organization of interaction between various branches of the armed forces.
    2. 11111mail.ru
      11111mail.ru 26 May 2014 21: 47
      0
      Quote: mark2
      So this computer produced the result that without a nuclear strike it is impossible to break through the Finnish defense line.

      Mr. Rezun is not worth quoting.
  31. Iceman79
    Iceman79 26 May 2014 19: 32
    0
    Comrade author, have you ever tried to run 100-150 meters in the snow 1-1,5 meters deep in the frost of 20-30 degrees, and heavy machine guns are shooting at you, and the tanks will not cover you because they get stuck, and there’s no artillery to give a lift, and the aircraft in such a forest that they couldn’t see anything before, but still broke through, so who’s not smart — Hitler had the opportunity to break the Maginot line — no, he circumvented it, and not when the German army stormed stationary fortifications because I was not able to break through them, this is because at that time there were only two higher schools of officers, Russian and German.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 26 May 2014 23: 22
      0
      Quote: Iceman79
      Comrade author, have you ever tried to run 100-150 meters in the snow 1-1,5 meters deep in the frost of 20-30 degrees, and heavy machine guns are shooting at you, and the tanks will not cover you because they get stuck, and there’s no artillery to give a lift, and the aircraft in such a forest that they couldn’t see anything before, but still broke through, so who’s not smart — Hitler had the opportunity to break the Maginot line — no, he circumvented it, and not when the German army stormed stationary fortifications because I was not able to break through them, this is because at that time there were only two higher schools of officers, Russian and German.

      When was it a frost of 20-30 degrees and a half meters of snow? The Germans broke through the Maginot line in 1940. In the same way, they calmly passed all SDs on the old and new borders. The technique of overcoming the fortified areas was worked out from the First World War.
  32. sssr
    sssr 26 May 2014 19: 52
    0
    For the future lesson, do not leave alive to finish this echidna. And then in Paris we are hussars in Europe liberators. It was not in vain that Nevsky warned anyone who would die with us with a sword would die from him. The story is back.
  33. Severok
    Severok 26 May 2014 20: 25
    0
    Do not hell to look for truth on forums, social networks and sites. TS grabbed delirium, like expired beer, from which it swept.
  34. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 26 May 2014 22: 17
    0
    Gentlemen, comrades, allow the warrior of the second category to insert the word. The son of parents who survived the war: a father who met the beginning of the war in the trenches of the Barabash fortified area as part of the OKDVA of the Red Army and a mother who joined the ranks of the Red Army on 19.10.1941/1940/152 in the ranks of the Trans-Baikal Front, I still wonder what a miracle, what tension, what faith in our VICTORY, our fathers, mothers and grandfathers broke the back of the Nazi beast. Father cleared Transcarpathia from fascist accomplices. Mom walked the streets of liberated Vienna. The God of the Russian land granted them to stay alive and give birth to children. I unequivocally consider the Soviet-Finnish war of XNUMX to be justified after the achievement of strategic goals, despite the fact that one of my grandfather's brothers laid their heads "on that not noble war." Dad considered our losses in the "Finnish" XNUMX thousand killed.
  35. mainu
    mainu 26 May 2014 23: 01
    +1
    I myself heard from a French boy that the Russians were able to reach Berlin only because the evil KGB officers shot in the back. I ask, who saw these KGB officers? It turns out that the grandfather, who, mind you, spent the whole war in the beds, so that later he would greet the bravo Americans.