Military Review

Triumph postponed

88



Both the Russians and Europeans can suffer from the fall of the Russian Proton-M launch vehicle with a French-made communication satellite

On the night from Thursday to Friday, the Russian Proton-M carrier rocket crashed with the Express-AM4P communications satellite, commissioned by the Russian company Cosmic Communications, by the European company EADS Astrium.

The launch vehicle (PH) was launched from the Baikonur cosmodrome at the estimated time - 1: 42 Moscow time. Her first two steps worked out normally. However, on the 540 second flight, when an 40 seconds remained before the planned separation of the Briz-M upper stage with the satellite on board, the accident occurred.

In the first hours after the accident, news agencies spread the information that its preliminary cause was the abnormal operation of one of the third-stage steering engines of the Proton-M. However, the head of Roscosmos Oleg Ostapenko advised not to rush to conclusions. “No, it’s impossible to say that the steering engine is to blame for everything. It is necessary to understand everything in detail. As long as there is preliminary information that an emergency shutdown of third-stage engines occurred in 545 seconds, and that approximately 20 seconds before, according to the received telemetry, one of the steering engines worked abnormally. Naturally, therefore, the parameters of the entire flight of the rocket began to change, and in accordance with the program, when it went beyond the permissible limits, a simultaneous emergency shutdown of the engines occurred, ”RIA News.

But in the Roskosmos, the LV, the accelerating unit, the satellite and the remains of rocket fuel were burned down when they fell in the atmosphere, they are surely certain. “It is confirmed that the launch vehicle, the upper stage and the satellite were completely burned in the dense layers of the atmosphere. It happened over the territory of China. Taking into account the height of the orbit, we can confidently say that nothing has reached the Earth, ”said Oleg Ostapenko.

The current accident, the Proton-M, put an end to the eleventh spacecraft (SC), which Russia has been trying to bring with the help of this launch vehicle into space in the last 5 years. It's a lot. This is very much by the standards of the modern space industry for delivering a spacecraft to Earth orbit. Therefore, the consequences of this accident can be much more serious than the previous ones.

Elapsed time does not return

The Express-AM4P satellite, which burned down during the Proton-M accident, was to become the most powerful and most high-tech Russian communications satellite. This spacecraft with a mass of about 5,8 tons was built on the basis of the Eurostar ЕNNUMX platform and equipped with 3000 transponders of the C, Ku, Ka, L-band and 63 antennas to provide a stable connection coverage throughout the territory of Russia and the CIS countries. In fact, this satellite was to become a symbol of the triumph of the Russian telecommunications operators and the guarantor of sustainable television and radio broadcasting, access to the Internet, and telephony in the vast majority of our country's territories, including in the Arctic zone. However, now this triumph is postponed indefinitely.

“The loss of the spacecraft Express-AM4R put an end to the work of many specialists and, without doubt, is a tragic event for the entire communications industry in Russia. Given that the spacecraft was insured, the time spent on its production cannot be returned to us, ”the head of the Federal Communications Agency Oleg Dukhovnitsky told RIA Novosti with obvious annoyance in his voice.

And the annoyance of Russian telecom operators can be easily understood. Initially, the Express-AM4 satellite with the help of Proton-M was to be launched into orbit as early as 2011. According to the then Minister of Communications of Russia Igor Shchegolev, this spacecraft was supposed to be "an outstanding telecommunications satellite in its parameters, not only for Russia, but for the whole world." With his help, for example, they were going to make a large-scale transition from analogue to digital television in most of the country. However, the Briz-M overclocking unit as part of the Proton-M failed, and in March 2012, the coolest Russian communications satellite had to be drowned in the Pacific Ocean.

In exchange, its European company EADS Astrium commissioned by the FSUE "Space Communications" in the framework of the Russian Federal Space Program for 2006-2015, built the satellite Express-AM4R. However, it also burned down in the atmosphere from Thursday to Friday due to the accident of the launch vehicle. In the interim, in 2012, the Proton-M with RB Briz-M could not bring the Express-MD2 communication satellite into the calculated orbit, which, by order of Cosmic Communications, was manufactured jointly with the Italians by the state space science and production center to them. Khrunichev (GKNPTs im.Hrunicheva), and the Indonesian communications satellite Russian-French production Telcom-3.

Thus, if we count the six Glonnass-M satellites lost in 2010 and 2013, and the Yamal satellite, which reached the calculated orbit on its own engines (because of this, its service life in orbit was reduced by 1,5 times) since December 2010, due to the Proton-M crashes and the Briz-M upper stage, Russia and foreign countries have lost more than a dozen spacecraft.

Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Cosmonautics named after Tsiolkovsky, Andrey Ionin, for example, believes that the reason for this is in the system problems of the space industry. “What is happening, these abnormal, emergency situations are not the result of the work of specific people in the leadership of Roskosmos, but of the systemic problems that have accumulated in the industry, industry, economy, education, training of workers and engineers. A whole range of reasons, so the need to reform the industry. We must not tear our hair, but even more rigidly, consistently, with more political will and speed, carry out reforms in the industry, ”he stressed.

Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, in charge of the government in space, adheres to the same position. “The only way to deal with accidents is to consistently implement the decisions already taken on the reform of the rocket and space industry,” he wrote on his blog on Twitter.

At the end of last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree on the creation of the United Rocket and Space Corporation, which will include all industrial enterprises of the industry. At the same time, branch scientific institutes and organizations of ground infrastructure will remain in Roscosmos. Obviously, such a reform of the industry is long overdue, and the situation with today's fall of the Proton-M will spur this reform.

Looking to the West

The current fall of the Proton-M is also not good due to the fact that it happened against the background of a decrease in the level of cooperation between Russia and the Western community in the rocket and space sphere. Moreover, the situation is paradoxical. The main "deteriorator" is the United States, seeking in this uncomplicated way to put pressure on Russia and change our country's position in relation to the events in Ukraine. Moreover, they are crushing both directly - prohibiting, for example, their companies from supplying our country with an electronic component base for the "stuffing" of satellites, and indirectly - through their allies in Europe. In April, for example, the United States, in fact, banned the Europeans from launching spacecraft that contain American components on Russian launch vehicles. This casts doubt on the prospects for the Russian launch of the Astra 2G telecommunications satellite company SAS, the two telecommunications satellites Inmarsat 5 F2 and the Turkish satellite Turksat 4B this year.

Sensible Europeans, in turn, do not want the United States to dance to the tune. They also understand the duplicity of the position of the American authorities regarding Ukraine, and that at the expense of Europe, the US wants to ensure the filling of its own market of space services for cargo delivery to near-Earth orbit. Therefore, the main "cosmonaut" of Europe - France, in fact, sabotages all US attempts to drive a wedge into Russian-French space programs, including the launch of Russian launch vehicles from its cosmodrome in Kourou (French Guiana).

But with all the good relations between Russia and France, the once-burnt Proton-M could become just the straw that, as the old Eastern saying goes, could break the camel's ridge. Therefore, the investigation of this accident, which is entrusted to a special commission under the leadership of the deputy head of the Roskosmos head scientific organization - TsNIIMash, Alexander Danilyuk, will be under scrutiny not only of Russia, but also of the international community. Because the question of the Europeans is now exactly this way - is it possible to continue to rely on Russians in joint space programs or will it still have to turn towards the Americans?

I hope that the answer to this question will nevertheless be the continuation of Russian-European cooperation in space. Because the meticulous French can not pay attention to one significant fact in the Russian rocket and space industry. The two main Russian launch vehicles are now the heavy Proton-M and the Soyuz middle class RN. The first makes GKNPTs im.Hrunicheva (Moscow), the second - "TsSKB-Progress" (Samara). According to statistics, on the 35 launches "Proton-M" from the Republic of Belarus "Breeze-M" from October 2010 to the present day had 6 off-nominal. "Unions" of different modifications started 26 times during the same time. Moreover, from different places - from Plisetsk, from Baikonur, from Kuru. In this case, only 1 launch was recognized as non-standard - when “Soyuz-2-1b” from RB “Frigate” 23.12.2011 of the year could not bring the military satellite “Meridian-5” into the calculated orbit. But even in this case, the reason for the loss of the satellite was nothing other than the abnormal operation of the RD-0124 engine of the third stage of the launch vehicle, which is small-scale manufactured in the Voronezh Design Bureau of Automatization.

This does not mean that Proton-M is worse than the Union. These are equally good, reliable vehicles, which for several decades have been consistently delivering cargo to near-earth orbit, and the Soyuz also people. But such statistics suggest that the problem of falling Protons is not only the need to reform the entire rocket and space industry in Russia, but also to induce staffing (that is, one that complies with established regulations) of the technological order in a single enterprise. Because when the commission finds out that the cause of the fall of the Proton-M with three Glonass-M satellites last year was the incorrect installation of the angular velocity sensors of the RN control system, it is no longer funny.

Three of these six sensors, according to the commission, were installed “upside down” and, accordingly, could not give out correct information, which led to the deviation of the rocket from a given course and its subsequent fall.

Moreover, the technological holes for the installation of these sensors provide only one position - the correct one. In the "upside down" position the sensor does not climb. But someone from the "Khrunychevtsy", obviously, somehow managed to "push" them in this way. “Experts have found that on the mating surfaces of three of the six sensors there are signs characteristic of traces that appeared during experiments on the abnormal installation of the device - it was installed upside down. The identified damage coincided almost completely, ”the Roskosmos was then stressed. And such a case is absolutely contrary to the highest production culture that developed in Soviet times and is still supported at most of the existing enterprises of the Russian rocket and space industry. Therefore, with the widespread restoration of such a culture of production, obviously, we must begin the reform of the industry.
Author:
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http://expert.ru/2014/05/16/udar-pod-dyih/
88 comments
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  1. Angro Magno
    Angro Magno 20 May 2014 19: 01
    +42
    However, Protons, on which satellites are displayed in the interests of other countries, fall less often.

    Strange selectivity in our media.
    Very similar to targeted sabotage.
    1. Luzhichanin
      Luzhichanin 20 May 2014 19: 10
      +14
      so it is, given where the components come from. bookmarks unambiguously. can be turned off where necessary, even over China, they say the Chinese shot down laughing
      plus for you. it cannot be called a company for curtailing space programs, given the fact that other people's rockets fall at least.
      we are just among the main leaders in launching, but for many this leadership is not to our taste.
      1. Angro Magno
        Angro Magno 20 May 2014 19: 13
        +11
        Revenge for Rogozin, for his remark on the trampoline?
        1. Luzhichanin
          Luzhichanin 21 May 2014 09: 54
          0
          quite, quite, for a trampoline plus good
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Sterlya
        Sterlya 21 May 2014 00: 15
        0
        Moreover, the technological holes for the installation of these sensors provide only one position - the correct one. In the "upside down" position the sensor does not climb. But someone from the "Khrunychevtsy", obviously, somehow managed to "push" them in this way. “Experts have found that on the mating surfaces of three of the six sensors there are signs characteristic of traces that appeared during experiments on the abnormal installation of the device - it was installed upside down. The identified damage coincided almost completely, ”the Roskosmos was then stressed. And such a case is absolutely contrary to the highest production culture that developed in Soviet times and is still supported at most of the existing enterprises of the Russian rocket and space industry. Therefore, with the widespread restoration of such a culture of production, obviously, we must begin the reform of the industry.

        And for some reason I think on purpose "so" pushed. sabotage.
    2. Silkway0026
      Silkway0026 20 May 2014 19: 18
      +5
      Almost sure of the above
      1. igor_m_p
        igor_m_p 21 May 2014 00: 42
        +1
        But I'm not sure. It is Protons that fall, is it not strange selectivity for sabotage?
    3. sso-xnumx
      sso-xnumx 20 May 2014 20: 01
      +9
      So I think about the same thing! Trackers from the FSB would rummage there, you look and find a bad boy
      1. Angro Magno
        Angro Magno 20 May 2014 20: 19
        +5
        I think rummaging. And not one year.
        They just can't catch it. Anyone who plans sabotage business knows tight. Surely he knows the design like the back of his hand and knows where to poke and not repeat.
        1. Nick
          Nick 20 May 2014 20: 23
          0
          Quote: Angro Magno
          I think rummaging. And not one year

          They’ll hit the tails, but we must warn ...
          1. Angro Magno
            Angro Magno 20 May 2014 20: 40
            +3
            You cannot assign a taskmaster to every locksmith.
            And creating a moral climate in the country so that there is no desire to harm one’s own country is no longer a function of the special services.
            1. jagdpanzer
              jagdpanzer 21 May 2014 07: 27
              0
              why not put it? Three-step control is necessary with journal entries from all three and that's it!
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Lyokhin63
          Lyokhin63 20 May 2014 21: 08
          +1
          What is Proton, what is the Union transported after engine tests, pre-assembly at the factory with modules by rail. It’s a nice thing to open a sealed container with the third step somewhere during transportation, put the playful handle with a screwdriver somewhere in a place inaccessible for visual inspection, brush the chips, seal with a fake seal and that’s all. It is done. The media will burn in the upper atmosphere and no trace. This is just my version offhand, not knowing the intricacies of the system. I am absolutely sure that the fall of carriers is sabotage, you can consider me paranoid. The interest in these accidents is obvious, all our troubles began with the transfer of launches to low Earth orbits from NASA to private companies such as SpaceX. As they say business, nothing personal.
          1. fero
            fero 20 May 2014 21: 31
            +4
            Valuable goods on the railway are guarded. My uncle works in the security service of Russian Railways, constantly rides. On each stage, the cargo is inspected for outside interference. Plus incoming customer control at the destination station. In short, diversion along the route- falls away.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. sub307
        sub307 20 May 2014 20: 34
        +4
        And, someone else thinks that they do not "rummage". They dig "all together", not for the first year (sequentially for each "abnormal" launch and lost spacecraft). Apparently the point is, after all, not in the "bad boys" - it would be too simple and "good". I am afraid that the reason is the systemic crisis of both the entire economic model and the industry in particular.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Dilshat
        Dilshat 20 May 2014 21: 56
        -2
        Well, how can sensors be placed incorrectly if there are connectors? If it is difficult to install them incorrectly? The installers of these sensors have probably been wrapped in mattresses or corpses for a long time. Unambiguously sabotage is simply forbidden to talk about it. Just who and why?
    4. clidon
      clidon 20 May 2014 20: 22
      +2
      In 2008, Proton was unable to launch an American satellite ....
    5. Lyokhin63
      Lyokhin63 20 May 2014 20: 42
      +1
      If we take the theory of probability: the probability of the event that our carriers from the 11th year fall, ceteris paribus, only with our spacecraft, despite the fact that about half of the launches with foreign spacecraft, is offhand close to unbelievable. Where is the counterintelligence? How much can you bring to production?
    6. Know-nothing
      Know-nothing 20 May 2014 20: 51
      +2
      Perhaps "other countries" do not skimp on additional checks.
    7. Val_y
      Val_y 20 May 2014 21: 46
      0
      I thought the same thing, well, "and sho is so strenuously silent there, FSB, Counterintelligence" sad Or there, too, Krechetov wound up ("Liquidation")
    8. bif
      bif 20 May 2014 21: 59
      +1
      Quote: Angro Magno
      Strange selectivity in our media.
      Very similar to targeted sabotage.
      Strange selectivity - COMMUNICATION satellites are falling ... 100% sabotage
      1. igor_m_p
        igor_m_p 21 May 2014 00: 40
        0
        GLONASS burned down last year is not related to communications.
    9. varov14
      varov14 21 May 2014 06: 40
      +1
      “What is happening, these abnormal, emergency situations are not the result of the work of specific people in the leadership of Roscosmos, but of those systemic problems that have accumulated in the industry, industry, economy, education, and training of workers and engineers. There is a whole complex of reasons why the industry needs reform. We need not to pull our hair out, but even more rigidly, consistently, with greater political will and speed to carry out reforms in the industry "----- That's right, but the human factor should not be discarded, we must try very hard to install the sensors upside down if in principle, this is not possible, it turns out "Kulibins" - hands grow from the right place, but ordinary saboteurs, saboteurs and traitors. The idea of ​​the golden calf has corrupted us to the utmost, we will sell our mother.
  2. mig31
    mig31 20 May 2014 19: 02
    +10
    To put up the cross early, it is necessary to work ...
    1. Nikoha.2010
      Nikoha.2010 20 May 2014 19: 11
      +3
      Quote: mig31
      To put up the cross early, it is necessary to work ...

      And not to put the sensors upside down, it's a shame both for hundreds of millions of Euros and for the fact that again a few years ago. This is not AvtoVAZ, and it is unforgivable to “collect” rocket launchers with a sledgehammer.
      1. igor_m_p
        igor_m_p 21 May 2014 01: 06
        0
        Quote: Nikoha.2010
        It's a shame for hundreds of millions of eureka and for the fact that again several years ago.

        For hundreds of millions, you can not be offended, everything is always insured and this spacecraft along with the carrier was also insured for an amount sufficient to cover purely material damage, as well as all kinds of compensation.
        In general, some points in the article raise questions. What is this position that this satellite should have taken to ensure that it would cover ALL of the territory of Russia and the CIS ??? Yamal-201 in the 90E position from Kamchatka is visible only in places and in the southern regions, the elevation angle is 4 degrees, Chukotka practically does not see it, it is just as poorly visible in the European part.
    2. asar
      asar 20 May 2014 19: 14
      +10
      How many years "rotten" everything advanced in Russia, how many cool "specialists" left, left ...?! This is not a diversion? The persons "responsible" for the country's security and its competitiveness in the world market in those years were not saboteurs ?! The roots of problems should be sought not in today, but much earlier! With such an attitude towards any industry in Russia - from astronautics to agriculture - everything will fall, burn and milk yield will decrease! And we still have to live here for our children and grandchildren!
      1. Nick
        Nick 20 May 2014 20: 26
        +1
        Quote: asar
        How many years "rotten" everything advanced in Russia, how many cool "specialists" left, left ...?! This is not a diversion? Those who were "responsible" for the country's security and its competitiveness in the world market in those years were not saboteurs ?! The roots of problems should be sought not in today, but much earlier!

        gold words...
      2. Lyokhin63
        Lyokhin63 20 May 2014 23: 33
        0
        What kind of people are you. Victims of propaganda. If all the cool "specialists" left in the 90s, the carriers would fall so much in the 90s. It is precisely that the real specialists did not leave in the 90s, otherwise, hell would they talk about Russia in the late 2000s as the world's space cabbies. And there is no need to look for roots somewhere. Rockets have always been falling, both ours and (what I will say right now - they are, yes, it happens!), But the hysteria of the media about the falls in Russia began on 5.12.10 - when supposedly careless stupid performers made a mistake in refueling 3 steps by 1,5 tons of oxygen! And away we go - whatever fall, stage 3 or upper stage, our spacecraft. It is very convenient - if melted debris reaches the ground, then in the interval of hundreds of kilometers. Traces are blurry to say the least. But your conclusions have long been drawn - the industry is working with crooked degenerates and alcoholics. Are these only your conclusions?
  3. lelikas
    lelikas 20 May 2014 19: 04
    +7
    Nothing flew to the ground - the Chinese dismantled the air ......
    Now practice has proved that replacing the leadership does little, it is necessary to change the entire system radically.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 May 2014 21: 01
      +2
      Quote: lelikas
      Nothing flew to the ground - the Chinese dismantled the air ......
      It would be nice, otherwise the box showed two objects on the estate of a Chinese peasant, in appearance they looked very much like high-voltage batteries.
    2. wax
      wax 20 May 2014 23: 58
      0
      you need to change the whole system radically

      in the broad sense of the word
  4. cerbuk6155
    cerbuk6155 20 May 2014 19: 05
    +5
    Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail. soldier
    1. sergey261180
      sergey261180 20 May 2014 19: 48
      +5
      Quote: cerbuk6155
      Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail.

      Do you think the current military representatives will understand what they are taking there? laughing
    2. andr327
      andr327 20 May 2014 19: 52
      +6
      Yes, they appeared again. but there’s no normal preparation.
      they got into the crap and the troops: industry services, repairs military equipment, a military representative arrives, signs an act of work, and the direct exploiters (military) have nothing to do with it - take what you give. They broke the old system, but they messed up the new system so much that they couldn’t find any ends.
      Most of all new decisions, orders, decrees and decrees are aimed at blurring the responsibility of officials. Hunt directs everyone. but there is no one to be responsible for the results, or some uninvited is appointed.
      Most decisions in this area are created by new inspection posts, but issues of training personnel and technological discipline are not considered. shorter for one hard worker seven with a spoon!
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 20 May 2014 21: 19
        +6
        Quote: andr327
        issues of training personnel, technological discipline are not considered. shorter for one hard worker seven with a spoon!

        At one time I was lucky to visit one southern enterprise of the space industry. Technological chart, journal (statement), two people: one "turns" the second one checks whether it is correct or not, then two signatures under one operation ("tighten nut A counterclockwise 12 turns.")
        And there were no falls of the launch vehicle and satellite.
        1. Starover_Z
          Starover_Z 20 May 2014 22: 55
          0
          It is interesting, but how can one control the nut turning by 12 turns if this is done with a socket wrench in the recess? (just a joke and nothing more)
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          two people: one "turns" the second one checks whether it is correct or not, then two signatures under one operation ("tighten nut A counterclockwise 12 turns.")


          It’s not difficult to create control over the operations being performed now - video control with recording is already routine, plus a human check by a group of controllers so that there is no binding of a person to specific control over the operation.
          1. Penzyac
            Penzyac 21 May 2014 00: 03
            0
            Quote: Starover_Z
            ... verification by a group of controllers - so that there is no binding of a person to specific control over the operation.

            Then you won’t find anyone responsible for sure, seven nannies always have a child without an eye.
            In Soviet times, there was always just personal responsibility and missiles fell extremely rarely.
        2. Lyokhin63
          Lyokhin63 20 May 2014 23: 46
          +3
          I work at one of the non-southern enterprises that produce RN, though not in the main production. The quality assurance system remains the same as you described, I have not seen anything like this anywhere else. With a wild amount of paper, the influence of the human factor on the quality is minimal. And no ISO 9000. Everything is thought out before us. But if reformers and optimizers come to our production - as the majority of "well-wishers" wish here, every second carrier will fall anyway.
        3. Mareman Vasilich
          Mareman Vasilich 21 May 2014 01: 29
          0
          that's right, people felt responsible for their work, and bosses and managers were threefold.
    3. Penzyac
      Penzyac 20 May 2014 23: 57
      0
      Quote: cerbuk6155
      Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail. soldier

      The military envoys have not gone anywhere, although most of their staff are now civilian (since the time of "Taburetkin"). It all depends on the specific military representatives and their subordinates, on their professionalism and attitude to their work, they are people too.
  5. alone
    alone 20 May 2014 19: 06
    +1
    what It would be interesting to hear Rogozin. It seems to have recently talked about plans for the colonization of the moon.
    1. sergey261180
      sergey261180 20 May 2014 19: 38
      -5
      Quote: lonely
      It would be interesting to hear Rogozin. It seems to have recently talked about plans for the colonization of the moon.

      If the mattresses sell him a ticket to the moon, he can and will colonize. laughing
      1. smile
        smile 20 May 2014 20: 08
        -1
        sergey261180
        Yeah, mattresses cannot reach the ISS without us, but you advise them to buy tickets for the Moon. :))) Not that they are able to sell such a ticket, I have no doubt that they will even sell a plot there. Anyone, even you. They will become ... The main question is to find suckers to sell such tickets. :))) Because while they are forced to buy space tickets with us. Expensive. :)))

        Although, frankly, Rogozin’s reasoning about the Moon is nothing but irritation. :)))
        1. sergey261180
          sergey261180 20 May 2014 20: 22
          -1
          Quote: smile
          Although, frankly, Rogozin’s reasoning about the Moon is nothing but irritation. :)))

          It’s been a long time since I was beaten by this talk. And everywhere, at all levels. There is no real work, one talk. Planers in the morning, evening and at lunch, soon at night instead of sleep will be. Do not pi .. it is necessary, but to produce. Well, Rogozin is generally Tryndets, all his life he has only trendeld his tongue and here it’s up to you - they put the military-industrial complex to command. And so it is everywhere.
          1. smile
            smile 20 May 2014 22: 56
            +1
            sergey261180
            No matter how unpleasant it is for me to admit it, but there is such a thing ... to be honest, it reminds me of a discussion of the decisions of the 27th congress and 19 party conference .... .... :)))) Sick ..... But still, in my opinion, it should be recognized that at least something has been done recently ... unlike what was a little earlier .... there are positive changes ... just the inertia is significant.
        2. wax
          wax 21 May 2014 00: 08
          -1
          Yes, for a long time already plots on the moon have been sold - and there are enough willing. Instead of ISS problems, the mattresses redirected their forces to create an autonomous reusable shuttle flying for six months in space for unknown purposes. We still have to study and learn how to plow along Mars rovers. Twenty years of collapse are not in vain.
      2. Penzyac
        Penzyac 21 May 2014 00: 13
        +1
        Quote: sergey261180
        Quote: lonely
        It would be interesting to hear Rogozin. It seems to have recently talked about plans for the colonization of the moon.

        If the mattresses sell him a ticket to the moon, he can and will colonize. laughing

        Well, the master’s mattress covers share the skin of a dead bear. They have already sold half of the moon to private traders in the form of certificates for plots, now they have started trading plots on Mars. Such is the vanity fair. All the same, they will have to fly to their sites from our trampoline, and their tickets are not recognized by our trampoline as Chinese counterfeit.
  6. sams
    sams 20 May 2014 19: 09
    +8
    Here are some interesting examples of failed launches back in the 60s

    - The main carrier of the L-1 ship (Probe) was the proven Chelomei Proton rocket. However, problems arose with it: in the 67th year, obvious absurdities were summed up during the assembly, one of which turned out to be the result of an obvious sabotage. At the first launch of the carrier in March on the D block, the plus and minus were mixed up due to their stupidity. Such an incident in modern aircraft production is simply impossible ...

    ... But the failure of the test was the most offensive due to the fact that a plug from a completely different engine from another workshop got into the fuel path. But it was already, as the commission established, a direct sabotage. It turned out so. After working for about 30 seconds, the rocket was cut down. Explosion. The fall. Investigation. We looked who collected. The collector was with the Order of Lenin. They organized a tricky test: “Let's trace how this was done!” The collector began to show how he checked everything, how he put the plug and how the engine left the assembly line. And imperceptibly he was slipped a stub. He took it and, without hesitation, put it in place. And the plug is the same in shape, only with a smaller diameter. The collector didn’t even notice ... Whoever slipped this plug for the first time, they didn’t find it!

    http://www.federalspace.ru/10404/
  7. Morgan
    Morgan 20 May 2014 19: 10
    +5
    I really would not want our astronauts to master the trampoline ... But if you do not put a dozen or two dolbo & bov then you have to ...
  8. WIN969
    WIN969 20 May 2014 19: 15
    +4
    All sorts of experts climbed alarmists, apparently could not wait when it falls to spoil.
  9. Giant thought
    Giant thought 20 May 2014 19: 22
    -1
    The principle of military acceptance, the answer is to keep joint, who created the marriage and who accepted the marriage, material liability at first, full damages, did not manage to pay itself, the heirs must pay, and further admission to the corresponding work. Only such harsh measures can bring order to the space industry, and if with human casualties - then to the highest degree.
    1. Lyokhin63
      Lyokhin63 20 May 2014 23: 50
      +2
      Well GIANT! Who invented or prompted himself? With such thoughts you don’t hang around in the office, come to us to work with the heirs together
    2. Djein
      Djein 21 May 2014 00: 19
      0
      Quote: Thought Giant

      Giant Thoughts Yesterday 19:22

      The principle of military acceptance, the answer is to keep joint, who created the marriage and who accepted the marriage, material liability at first, full damages, did not manage to pay itself, the heirs must pay, and further admission to the corresponding work. Only such harsh measures can bring order to the space industry, and if with human casualties - then to the highest degree.

      You see, one of the alleged pests has already responded by putting you minus ..... Logically ...
    3. The comment was deleted.
  10. kirqiz ssr
    kirqiz ssr 20 May 2014 19: 24
    -9
    we have to fly into space on a trampoline.
    1. sabakina
      sabakina 20 May 2014 20: 01
      +4
      The Proton is a cargo ship, not a manned one.
      Don't touch the Soyuz ...
  11. My address
    My address 20 May 2014 19: 30
    +4
    It's a shame.

    New is not created, debugged forgotten how to do. Previously, the tasks were on the shoulder, now on .... I was proud of my forty-year experience and seven-hour working day for the last 12 years - from 7 in the morning to 7 in the evening (Sat and Sun until 11). And now they tell me that let the donkey work. Degradance from the slinger to the managing director.

    It's a shame and sad. But I know that fish always rots from the head. And I know that the correction of big mistakes must begin with a big scuffle.
    1. smile
      smile 20 May 2014 20: 28
      0
      My address
      And you probably know that if you put a fresh head on your rotten head, then the fish will stop smelling not always .... if at all. We stopped. So, that you should elevate the hosanne miracle - the gradual revival of rotten fish due to the fact that they sewn her other head .... :))))
      Or do you really need a big scuffle? 7 Did you like the rather big scuffle that started the end of Ukraine? Do you want the same? They also had the same slogans about fish, and about oligarchs and about swindlers, about everything else ... they even had leaders about the same - they had curators alone ... And we, accordingly, had our own fascists ...all. whatever .... Only the maydown was realized. and Bolotnaya, fortunately, no ..... that’s the whole difference, otherwise we would have had the same thing ....
      Did you like the Ukrainian semifinal? Is that why you are reanimating your favorite slogans so popular on Bolotnaya? You just amaze me .... Alexander, I never asked you, now I ask, you are actually calling for a big scuffle ... tell me, did you participate in a big scuffle, did you fight? If so, do you really want to fight? Do you want the whole country to fight? If not laziness, please answer.

      Well, damn it, I knew that. He even wrote repeatedly - our marshes did not disappear anywhere, they only calmed down, and at the slightest failure, the slightest mistake, any tragedy, they will come out like maggotes from a corpse crushed by trucks with a cavity wound ....
      1. My address
        My address 21 May 2014 11: 31
        0
        Vladimir!

        In your opinion, because of the fear of deterioration, you just need to approve? And the situation in the economy, including engineering, electronics, hurt yourself? But it doesn’t occur to you that the approvers just feed the marsh liberals? What about hand guides like Medvedev / Chubais? Are they in their place? Do they have vast experience in team leadership for the glory of the motherland? Yes, I will not take such slingers - either injure anyone, or they will ruin the equipment, or they will communize.

        You reminded me of the 60 years and the girl from the technical school, who at the Komsomol meeting in response to my criticism of the bureau stated that I did not like the Soviet regime. Do not confuse God's gift with fried eggs. I do not call for a coup d'etat and even processions. But it’s not bad for everyone at the top to answer their business. And then they took it as a fashion to declare that the main thing is inevitability, and not rigor. So they got the patriot Kvachkov in prison, and the pest Serdyukov again with the briefcase.
  12. ar-ren
    ar-ren 20 May 2014 19: 31
    +5
    Here the difference is that our satellites are insured, moreover, they are insured with an excess of costs, while insured at the expense of the state. The payout is $ 222 million, with an insurance premium of 43%. Naturally, he cannot fail to fall. It’s like in 2001 the operation with the WTC buildings, which were insured and destroyed to get insurance.

    UPD. In the USA, for example, it is prohibited to insure government deliveries in principle. Therefore, a civil Falcon 9 flying in the interests of the United States cannot be insured. Therefore, NASA in the USA digs its nose to make everything perfect. Therefore, government contracts are more expensive. But without insurance. The same launch of Falcon 9 for private owners costs 56 million bucks + 15-25 million insurance, and under the state contract two launches of 85 and 95 million, but without insurance.
  13. Irokez
    Irokez 20 May 2014 19: 34
    +3
    Statistics is a stubborn thing.
    It is statistics that reveal the causes of some accidents or actions, and you need to think and answer one question. Who benefits from this?
    And it’s beneficial for the enemies and those who are stuffing their pockets on this matter (sometimes there’s a slackness for which everyone is charged, but this is a very small fraction of 100%). As far as I know, the devices are always insured and some of the funds are returned, but credibility and trust are falling. Here, as at the front of the traitors to the wall.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 May 2014 21: 33
      +2
      Quote: Irokez
      It is statistics that reveal the causes of some accidents or actions.

      The causes of accidents and disasters are identified by the State Commission, to which experts and extremely competent specialists are appointed.
      Quote: Irokez
      . Here, as at the front of the traitors to the wall.
      And if it suddenly turns out that it was a bookmark. Whereas?
      Everything in the space industry needs to be at 100% Russian. From A to Z. Then nothing will fall.
      1. Penzyac
        Penzyac 21 May 2014 00: 30
        0
        Quote: BoA KAA
        ...
        Everything in the space industry needs to be at 100% Russian. From A to Z. Then nothing will fall.

        It’s far from a fact, I know from experience that now the quality of domestic components is often not better than Chinese consumer goods, moreover, it is also expensive by reservation and if enough orders for a minimum launch batch are picked up.
    2. shalomnet
      shalomnet 21 May 2014 00: 14
      0
      it is beneficial to those who substitute insurance companies. and insurance companies insure banks (sort of). so, if it’s profitable for anyone, he doesn’t have a measured amount of resources to compensate and do everything as he wants.
  14. uzer 13
    uzer 13 20 May 2014 19: 36
    +3
    [And such a case is absolutely contrary to the highest culture of production that prevailed in Soviet times] [/ quote]

    And is it not now called sabotage when sensors are hammered into abnormal places? Any schoolchild from the Skillful Hands circle can install them correctly. Someone does it for money. Systematic fires in military warehouses can also be attributed to this. there are no fires at the nearby industrial enterprises. The FSB clearly failed in these matters, and therefore they are looking for a switchman on whom you can blame everything.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 May 2014 21: 57
      +2
      Quote: uzer 13
      systematic fires in military warehouses. Why there are no fires at nearby industrial enterprises

      What are "pyroxylins" do you know? If not, then see when they decompose and what happens. All warehouses kept BPs of the Great Patriotic War, and in the east - PMA! Surely there were bugs with smoking accessories, as is common in the troops, and bungling when unpatronizing Unitars ...
      At civilian enterprises - "fresh explosives" - therefore (blows are not terrible) there is still no decomposition. Guys work experienced, family, as a rule, without stupidity in the head.
  15. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 20 May 2014 19: 37
    +1
    Conclusion, the foreign agent network in production is still not opened.
    In Russia there is a ministry of ecology, there is a ministry of labor and social protection, there are no problems with the environment and social protection in the country, everything has been resolved. But there is no ministry of outer space, and there are just problems. It may already be established, since the agency is not coping, and a purely Soviet scheme does not allow religion to apply. Or maybe they will not find money for another ministry, or there is no task for him.
    1. ar-ren
      ar-ren 20 May 2014 20: 16
      0
      Quote: chunga-changa
      Conclusion, the foreign agent network in production is still not opened.


      Put a minus. Purely for nonsense. Here is a list of vacancies for "cosmodellers" http://polyot.su/main.php?id=211

      Still have questions?
      1. Demon0n
        Demon0n 20 May 2014 22: 37
        +3
        Quote: ar-ren

        Put a minus. Purely for nonsense. Here is a list of vacancies for "cosmodellers" http://polyot.su/main.php?id=211

        Still have questions?


        Most of all, the general touch of "work experience is required." Especially in conjunction with salaries.
        Most of all it reminds: "I want it and that's it. The rest is not ib ...".
        It's no longer destiny to think with your head. Where to come from specialists with work experience, and even ready to work for such a salary? To paraphrase, then: "Do not come to us, you do not suit us."
        A clear sign of rotten management. You can’t look for switchmen: this will not help. It is better to jail all senior management after confiscation. The capitalist and manager must pay with their last cowards for their lack of professionalism and stupidity.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  16. Tanechka-clever
    Tanechka-clever 20 May 2014 19: 41
    +9
    ".. we need to start reforming the industry ..". I have already heard this somewhere, but I know production well from the inside.
    The United States was not destroying production in Russia for this, but withdrew valuable specialists from the country. Thanks to her that we did not fall to the level of Afghanistan - but we could have seen "local oligarchs" simply did not want to give up natural resources. They themselves wanted to manage the "serfs" and create goods for personal needs. The only problem is that any reform is people, and talent is private property.
    The Jew-banker understands that money is power and how "koshchey" over gold will wither away. Any mercenary is a murderer for money - he killed and received. Soviet scientists unselfishly worked for the public good. And today it is worth doing either out of interest or profit. You can create disinterestedly in the name of an idea, but today our world resembles a feudal society, which means it is not just. Conclusion - the state needs reform - the wealth of the oligarchs should be directed to the welfare of the people and then the people will be drawn to "new achievements and achievements."
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 May 2014 22: 09
      +3
      Quote: Tanya-umunechka
      Conclusion - the state needs reform - the wealth of the oligarchs should be directed to the welfare of the people and then the people will be drawn to "new achievements and achievements."

      Well, what can I say? - only one: TANCHA - WISE! love
      1. Penzyac
        Penzyac 21 May 2014 00: 36
        0
        Quote: BoA KAA
        Quote: Tanya-umunechka
        Conclusion - the state needs reform - the wealth of the oligarchs should be directed to the welfare of the people and then the people will be drawn to "new achievements and achievements."

        Well, what can I say? - only one: TANCHA - WISE! love

        Well said, join.
  17. anip
    anip 20 May 2014 19: 47
    +1
    All these falls of "Protons" inevitably evoke one thought: it would be nice to revive the NKVD.
    1. shalomnet
      shalomnet 21 May 2014 00: 17
      -1
      Conscience needs to be revived, but "non-men in black".
  18. sodick
    sodick 20 May 2014 19: 47
    +6
    In my work, I intersect somewhat with enterprises manufacturing products for Roskosmos, and I want to tell you that the best workers from among those working at the enterprise are engaged in the production of these products. I do not believe in deliberate sabotage by the employees of the enterprise. However, I want to clarify that not the most capable people go to the enterprises of the industry, I wouldn’t let many people close to the plant in the old days. But what to do, thanks to education reform and a market economy, plus outdated equipment of enterprises (large-scale re-equipment began only a couple of years ago, and even then not at all enterprises, and we must take into account that a lot of money is spent on kickbacks), which led to a complete decline in the industry . All enterprises are constantly shaking various commissions that check the correctness of filling a pile of waste paper, but at the same time no one looks at the qualifications and financial interest of workers, craftsmen, technologists. While ignoramuses leave schools, while institutes blurt out bachelors, masters at their own expense, while military envoys come directly from schools without knowing production, but knowing how to read GOSTs stupidly, not understanding the point, there is a huge gap between the director’s salary and the worker’s salary (sometimes hundreds and thousands of times) Protons will fall, and planes will not fly. Yes, sorry, I forgot about the production. There is no production of an electronic component base in the country at all. This is also the reason. And everyone knows this, but they are falling apart even more.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 May 2014 22: 28
      +2
      Quote: sodick
      thanks to the reform of education and a market economy ... While ignoramuses leave schools, while institutes blurt out bachelors, masters at their own expense, while military envoys come straight from schools without knowing production

      Well what can I say? It is necessary to change the system ... Nagan is no longer able to cope!
  19. Victor-M
    Victor-M 20 May 2014 19: 49
    +3
    "Proton" takes off perfectly when on board, in addition to the Russian satellite, there is also an American, or Western European. It's high time to take this into account laughing
    1. Djein
      Djein 21 May 2014 00: 14
      +1
      Quote: Victor-M
      It's time to consider this.

      Few people understand the meaning of the degree of probability that you wrote ....... Yes, and you including ... otherwise the smiley would be different ... Then one wrote that the amersputnik crashed on our missiles and did not ask himself a question to myself, what was inside him, that someone was checking .. ??? Knowing the "decency" of amers, I would not be surprised at anything ... For the sake of such a series of accidents, you can sacrifice one piece of iron in order to TRY to divert suspicions from yourself, and even make money on insurance ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  20. Signaller
    Signaller 20 May 2014 19: 51
    +3
    Apparently it's time to think about people, not about mechanisms. To teach specialists not for tanks, but for the knowledge that they should apply in Russia. And we ourselves study for our grandmothers, we work at a defense enterprise, and some managers earn money who do not relate to production in any way. And why??? They are sawing, sawing and again sawing folk money that they direct to this, and those who work create crumbs that they did not cut. And for crumbs, no one wants to work well. Blinded a rocket, and it’s alright. How much they write about it, and things are still there.
  21. sergey261180
    sergey261180 20 May 2014 19: 53
    0
    It may even be for the best that fell:
    This spacecraft weighing about 5,8 tons was built on the basis of the Eurostar E3000 platform and is equipped with 63 C-, Ku-, Ka-, L-band transponders and 10 antennas to ensure stable communication coverage throughout Russia and the CIS countries. In fact, this satellite was supposed to become a kind of symbol of the triumph of Russian signalmen and a guarantor of stable broadcasting, Internet access,

    This is because of television and the Internet, our people have stupefied over the past 30 years. Now they’ll watch less than house-2 or the first channel, they’ll go to plant potatoes in the garden, breathe fresh air, and they’ll get a little smarter. winked
  22. Grif
    Grif 20 May 2014 19: 57
    +2
    And in Samara, in the center of the city, there is a life-size Soyuz. Oh and beauties!
  23. Ramzaj99
    Ramzaj99 20 May 2014 20: 02
    +2
    Salaries must be paid to the workers, then the quality will be! And then people collect things worth hundreds of millions of dollars and get a penny !!!!
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 20 May 2014 20: 48
      -1
      Would you like workers to receive
      a salary of hundreds of millions of re?
      ...
      Economics ... at least at the family level ... never studied, huh?
  24. delfinN
    delfinN 20 May 2014 20: 10
    -1
    Quote: My address
    It's a shame.
    And I know that the correction of big mistakes must begin with a big scuffle.


    Successful brainwashing with the old KGB methods - cut the skull, remove the brain, wipe it with an alcohol-containing solution, insert the brain back, rewind the skull with a blue electrical tape
  25. ar-ren
    ar-ren 20 May 2014 20: 14
    +1
    S! See the list of vacancies of the Khrunichev GKNPC - http://polyot.su/main.php?id=211

    Still have questions?
  26. Igarr
    Igarr 20 May 2014 20: 25
    +1
    Spruce, what’s Newton’s bin here?
    A lot of colleagues on the site clearly and clearly explain the situation .... who is still unclear.
    Trampoline, Ukraine, GLONASS, China ...
    And - as the most important pebble in the dam - the position of leadership.
    Much simpler and easier to get - insurance - covering all losses.
    Than then to provide quality of communication and QOS.
    ...
    What do you guys want ... ".. with a 300 percent profit, the capital is ready to go for any provision .."
    Hunting shareholders to deal with fines.
    ...
    A hunt for our oligarchy ... to support another social experiment in the Donetsk Republic?
    But what about .... corporate solidarity?
    ...
    Do not believe it, brothers, how sickening it is to introduce all this nonsense that they stick into our industry.
    Including space.
    One scribble ... integrated management systems .... rating systems ....
    if only to star pain ... and to work - yes FIG knows, but someone will still. and working.
  27. basmach
    basmach 20 May 2014 20: 29
    -2
    As soon as VVP or one of his experimental subjects, "excuse me" wards, speaks about the reform in the industry or any other sphere, I immediately understand it. And why did not the GDP and the team reform - the army, agriculture, housing and communal services, industry (electronic, machine-tool building, heavy, etc.), secondary and higher education, sea and fishing fleets, even ideology, as soon as something naughty The handfuls will reach out, everything, kiss the ficus, water your mom. Here, the astronautics urgently needs to be reformed, but the poor woman will not bend herself in any way, she needs help.
    1. sergey261180
      sergey261180 20 May 2014 20: 51
      +1
      Quote: basmach
      As soon as VVP or one of its test subjects, "sorry" wards, talks about reform in the industry or any other area, I understand right away,

      We reformed them, reformed them ... lol
  28. SHOCK.
    SHOCK. 20 May 2014 20: 52
    +1
    One talking room at the top. It's time to arrange a public flogging for a change. It seems that they are all either members of the hostilities or secret Heroes of Russia.
  29. Bumbarash59
    Bumbarash59 20 May 2014 21: 00
    +1
    sergey261180 (3)  Today, 19:48 ↑ New

    Quote: cerbuk6155
    Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail.

    Do you think the current military representatives will understand what they are taking there
    [/ left] [left]
    Military representatives work at our plant - they understand everything. am The fly will not fly
  30. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 20 May 2014 21: 03
    0
    I spoke about the state of the space industry in the comments to the previous article (see comments on the article "The catastrophe happened not with the Proton, but with the entire Russian cosmonautics") ...
    Here I want to add one thing ... I do not believe in accidental incorrect installation of sensors, mechanisms and other things ... I have the impression ... that this is just deliberate wrecking and sabotage ...
  31. fly fishing
    fly fishing 20 May 2014 21: 08
    +1
    You just need to stop "raising" economists, accountants and lawyers. It is necessary to raise specialists and professional workers. Even education may be free, but it is necessary to teach, otherwise we will lag behind forever. And it is natural to answer for the quality with a wallet or firing ...
  32. Bumbarash59
    Bumbarash59 20 May 2014 21: 13
    0
    sergey261180 (3)  Today, 19:48 ↑ New

    Quote: cerbuk6155
    Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail.

    Do you think the current military representatives will understand what they are taking there
    [/ left] [left]
    [/ left] [left]
    [left] [/ left] We have military representatives at the plant - they understand everything. am the fly will not fly
  33. fero
    fero 20 May 2014 21: 40
    +1
    Quote: cerbuk6155
    Previously, military factories were military representatives who took the products. And now, no, that's the result. It is necessary to return them without fail. soldier

    Yes, they are in production, there is. I don’t know how they worked before in the Soviet era (he was a young salag), but now they are taking everything honestly, I see ... meticulous men. By the way, they are not only in military factories wink they may be present at a civilian enterprise that carries out any order in the interests of the Moscow Region.
  34. Michael KG
    Michael KG 20 May 2014 22: 10
    +1
    It is unfortunate in such cases of labor and knowledge of people who have dedicated their lives to this matter.
    When you know how to create, it does not matter what kind of creation it will be, it is important that you yourself understand that it is part of you. Even a simple flower, grown by hand, can be a source of pride for you.
  35. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 20 May 2014 22: 42
    +1
    Quote: fly fishing
    You just need to stop "raising" economists, accountants and lawyers. It is necessary to raise specialists and professional workers. Even education may be free, but it is necessary to teach, otherwise we will lag behind forever. And it is natural to answer for the quality with a wallet or firing ...

    About the futility of economists, accountants and lawyers correctly noted.

    The fact that specialists need to be raised is extremely accurate, because a true specialist cannot be bought - those who provide the country's defense capabilities are not for sale. And traitors in this case do not count, because crawling from them is extremely rare and only in enemy hands ...

    We won’t be left behind forever — not all the home-sellers, the Maidan, the marsh, the alcoholics and drug addicts.

    But education SHOULD BE COMPLETELY FREE. Moreover, for everyone, and even on trips to enterprises, a second higher education should be free.

    By the way, a society would have been much more reasonable if all the citizens received their first education in manufacturing specialties in industry, construction, and agriculture. If you want to be an economist or a lawyer - please study further ...

    But if he received a diploma of higher education, responsibility to society should be increased. For the measure of responsibility of people who received 4-6 years of free education should correspond to their social status.

    And yet, for academic degrees, you do not have to pay premiums, but levy a tax.
    For steadfast people for personal purposes use the state brand - a candidate or a doctor of science. They are trusted with team leadership, grants are given, and staff training is trusted ...
  36. tolancop
    tolancop 20 May 2014 22: 43
    +1
    Quote: sodick
    .... while the envoys come immediately from the schools without knowing the production, but being able to stupidly read the GOSTs, not understanding the meaning, .... the Protons will fall, not fly the planes .....

    In Soviet times, too, not everything was cloudless. PERSONALLY faced with one voepred. Not only is Dumb !!! I didn’t know how to read GOSTs. I handed over an experimental product, i.e. with not completely worked out drawings. I got to the bottom of the marking (there was a small flaw in the designer). It was done correctly, according to GOST, but rested, a ram, and in no way ... It was possible to break through only after the intervention of the chief designer.
  37. Sergey Vl.
    Sergey Vl. 20 May 2014 23: 12
    0
    In the 90s, the institute of military representatives was liquidated, then they missed it, but the train had already left. Or the Proton flew away. More precisely, did not fly away...
  38. Pesnyadv
    Pesnyadv 21 May 2014 01: 37
    +2
    Under the USSR, there was a higher education or a dropout under various "unfinished" education.

    There were also vocational schools, state technical schools, technical schools (secondary specialized or secondary technical education).

    Now bachelor, master ... ??????

    Fish cannot be SECOND freshness !!!
    Either you have a university degree or you DO NOT have a university degree.
    No other "clever and incomprehensible words" according to Gogol ...
  39. Weniamin
    Weniamin 21 May 2014 03: 42
    0
    Tear off your hands with such "Kulibin".
  40. Ruswolf
    Ruswolf 21 May 2014 04: 19
    +1
    Pesnyadv
    Fish cannot be SECOND freshness !!!
    Either you have a university degree or you DO NOT have a university degree.
    No other "clever and incomprehensible words" according to Gogol ...

    Vlad! hi "+"
    Also, I want to add that there should be no concepts
    - "good specialist"
    - "bad specialist"
    Once you have been trained, you are either a SPECIALIST or NO ONE and NO ONE!
    (although - "HOW" - in this case will be appropriate)!