Shenyang J-16 and Su-30МКИ: fighter rivalry continues

Comparison of military equipment of different countries is an interesting, but ambiguous exercise. A simple comparison of the stated characteristics, by definition, cannot lead to the correct answer to the question, whose equipment is better, since it does not take into account a lot of important factors (the role of technology in the structure of the troops, skills of the people controlling it, etc.). Nevertheless, new and new comparisons continue to appear. A few days ago, the Chinese military portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn published its version of the comparison of two modern aircraft.

The attention of the authors of the portal attracted two aircraft of the largest countries in Asia: India and China. Their task is they made a comparison of the Indian fighter Su-30MKI and the newest Chinese Shenyang J-16. China and India are fighting for leadership in the Asian region, and Su-30MKI and J-16 are the newest combat aircraft of their air force. According to Chinese authors, the comparison of these two aircraft can be of great interest.

Without wasting time on a general description of the two aircraft, the authors of the Mil.news.sina.com.cn portal noted that the Chinese fighter Shenyang J-16 has two main advantages over the Indian rival. The first of them is onboard electronic equipment. The Chinese J-16 aircraft carries an onboard radar station (radar) equipped with an active phased antenna array (AFAR). It is known from open foreign sources that the J-16 aircraft radar has an antenna with a diameter of about 1 meters with 2000 receiving-transmitting modules. The maximum antenna power is 6 kW, the average is 2 kW. Su-30MKI fighters of the Russian and Indian assemblies, in turn, carry the Bars NXNX Bars radar with a passive phased antenna array. The maximum power of the Bars station is also equal to 011 kilowatts, but the average power is at the level of 6 kW.

Based on the difference in power and antenna types, Chinese authors conclude about the superiority of the J-16 fighter. However, they note the importance of superiority in the average radiation power. This means that the Chinese aircraft J-16 will be able to detect the Indian Su-30МКИ before it enters the zone controlled by it, and will get some tactical advantage.

The second important feature of the Shenyang J-16 aircraft is its weaponry, namely the air-to-air missile PL-10. It is argued that this rocket has combat advantages due to the use of an infrared homing head with a resolution of 128x128, its high sensitivity, engine thrust vector control and other design features. With all this, the PL-10 rocket can reliably hit various types of air targets and is also protected from interference.

The authors of the portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn recognize that the Indian Su-30MKI aircraft has not only disadvantages, but also advantages. Its main advantage is the front horizontal tail. Thanks to him, the Russian-designed fighter has higher flight characteristics, primarily better handling and maneuverability. However, additional planes significantly increase the visibility of the aircraft for radar stations.

An interesting feature of the fighters Shenyan J-16 and Su-30МКИ is their "origin". Both of these aircraft are in fact the development of the Soviet / Russian Su-27 fighter, because of which they have a number of common features. For example, due to the presence of a double cabin, Chinese and Indian fighters are about a ton heavier than the “base” Su-27, which accordingly affects their thrust-to-weight ratio. It is noted that the FWS-10 and AL-31FP engines (two on each aircraft) provide the fighters with approximately the same afterburner thrust at the level of 25 t.

The specific combination of take-off weight and thrust of the engines affects the ammunition volumes of both aircraft and, as a result, their combat effectiveness. However, these disadvantages are common and are unlikely to affect the results of the comparison. In the context of thrust and engines, the prospects for the development of two fighters are also mentioned. According to the authors of the site Mil.news.sina.com.cn, to significantly improve the performance of the aircraft, the Chinese engine should have thrust at the afterburner at the level of 14 t. In addition, the “Super Dry” project is mentioned, in which new and then existing in the army, Su-30MKI fighters can get a new radar with an active phased antenna array and more powerful engines.

China and India are fighting for the title of regional leader, while the front-line aviation (in particular, J-16 and Su-30MKI fighters) are one of the instruments of such a struggle. Therefore, as the authors note, the development of aircraft and their rivalry will continue.

A comparison of two aircraft, carried out by the portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn, is of some interest. However, such an “analysis” of the capabilities of the Chinese and Indian fighters has not been without slyness, which is typical of comparing any equipment of its own production with foreign ones. As far as is known, the Su-30MKI and Shenyang J-16 fighters, being different variants of the development of the Su-27, have approximately the same size and weight characteristics. The same can be said about the well-known flight characteristics: the maximum speed of both aircraft reaches 2100 km / h, the flight range - up to 3000 km.

The built-in armament of the two fighters consists of one automatic 30 caliber mm gun, and for the suspension of rockets and bombs 12 units under the wing and fuselage are used. The total weight of the suspended weapons is up to 8 tons. Aircraft can carry guided and unguided rocket and bomb weapons of various types used in the Chinese or Indian air forces.

Noticeable differences between the two aircraft are available in the onboard electronic equipment. As already mentioned, the Chinese fighter is equipped with a radar with AFAR, while the Indian uses a station with a passive phased antenna array. Because of this, the Chinese J-16 should have higher target detection and tracking performance. However, the exact ratio of the characteristics of the two radar stations for obvious reasons is unknown.

To consider another feature of the comparison of two aircraft, we should recall a similar history from the recent past. In the 2012, the Chinese press published a comparison of the newest deck fighter Shenyang J-15 with the Russian Su-33, which is considered the “ancestor” of the Chinese machine. Then it was claimed that the Chinese J-15 is not inferior in some characteristics, and even surpasses the Russian fighter in some. Indeed, the Chinese aircraft designers managed to create a carrier-based fighter, comparable in their capabilities to the Soviet / Russian Su-33. However, the Su-33 first flew in August 1987 of the year. The Chinese J-15 made its first flight at the end of the summer of 2009. Thus, the aviation industry of China managed to repeat the successes of Soviet colleagues twenty years ago. This can also explain the superiority of J-15 over Su-33.

Su-30MKI fighter was created by Sukhoi on the request of the Indian Air Force in the mid-nineties. The Su-30MKI prototype took to the air in 1996 year. In 97, the customer received the first serial fighter of the new model. Fighters for the Indian Air Force are built by the Russian and Indian (licensed) aviation industry. To date, the military received about two hundred aircraft. By the end of this decade, their number should increase to 270.

The existence of the Chinese fighter Shenyang J-16 became known in the middle of the 2012 year. One of the prototypes of this aircraft got into the camera lenses. Since then, the Chinese aviation industry has completed the tests and fine-tuning of the fighter, and also began its mass production. Earlier this year, at least 24 aircraft of the new model was reported. Apparently, J-16 has already begun service in the army.

Thus, two and a half dozen planes share a dozen years, which can tell a lot about the development trends of the aviation industry in Russia, India and China. In the first place, this suggests that China is still lagging behind its competitors, although it is making constant attempts to catch up with them. Unfortunately, the lack of information about the latest Chinese fighter does not allow us to confidently talk about the real relationship between the characteristics and capabilities of the aircraft of the two countries. However, it should be noted that the Indian Su-30MKI, despite the use of radar without AFAR and the absence of PL-10 level missiles, have an indisputable numerical advantage.

China in the very near future will try to get rid of the lag in quantitative terms with the help of mass batch production of new technology. It is already known how India will respond to this step. The Super Sukhoi modernization program should improve the characteristics of the Su-30MKI fighters available and planned for construction.

The opinion of the authors of the portal Mil.news.sina.com.cn about on-board electronics or arming two fighters is ambiguous. You can agree with him, but you can deny it. However, the Chinese authors made the right conclusion. India and China, claiming to be the regional leader, are not going to abandon the development of their air force in general and front-line aviation in particular. This means that the rivalry of fighters will continue.


Based on:
http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2014-05-13/1051779058.html
http://militaryparitet.com/
http://globalsecurity.org/
http://airforceworld.com/

Comments

[0255]

Naturally, the Chinese will call their fighter the best.

[twviewer]

he is better - but on paper. it’s just silly to compare shock machines exclusively within the framework of aerial combat.

[Al_lexx]

Bullshit is all that. The pepper is clear that the Chinese are behind us for 20 years, in terms of the design school. I do not recall almost any really exclusive development in many areas of the military-industrial complex. And not just the military-industrial complex.
Yes, they are working, yes, persistent, yes, they know how to analyze and modernize. But with real creativity it's hard for them. The same South Korea, will give them 100 points ahead, in terms of original developments in all areas.

[mirag2]

Yes, we don’t have AFAR just because of the price.
Put it, it will be better.

[yehat]

the Chinese have problems stemming from the lack of a solid scientific base. They steal a lot and borrow, create production, but the integrity of the picture depends on good luck. They could neither steal the technology of manufacturing blades for the engine, nor buy, nor invent with the engines because the Chinese had a big failure - the J16 engines were either purchased from the Russian Federation or self-made, but with serious shortcomings, primarily in terms of resource.
Therefore, their planes are a mosaic of a set of ultra-modern chips and archaic nodes. Based on the fact that China does not buy engines, but India buys, the combat readiness of Indian dryers is expected to be higher and with an equal number of fleets, the Indian Air Force will be stronger, and pilots more trained.

[Stiletto]

In fact, the best will be the one who survives in a real aerial battle. Everything else is from the evil one.

[navara399]

In fact, the struggle for air superiority will be won in the pilot class, airplanes are almost equal in basic characteristics. An uninteresting article.

[Leonid Har]

Two aircraft of the same family, with small gadgets can be compared? Well, the Chinese will know that the Indian is flying a little earlier, but he will need to make a maneuver, while he is deploying and taking a more advantageous position, the Indian will find out about the enemy and tail in the tail due to the better maneuverability of the Su30MKI. That's all.
Here you need to find out what the word "a little early" means? How realistic is this in real combat conditions? And what are the tactical features of fighting the Chinese and the Indians?

[patsantre]

Quote: Leonid Khar

Well, a Chinese learns that an Indian is flying a little earlier, but he will need to make a maneuver while he is deploying and taking a more advantageous position

What nonsense, why turn around if you can immediately launch a rocket? And how does an Indian settle in his tail at a distance of about 200 km?

[yehat]

what nonsense? at a distance of 200 km air combat does not go!
usually detection occurs at a distance of 30-60 km, especially if the planes are flying not as in a parade, but along an inconspicuous profile, there is also a difference between radio contact and combat.
When using third-party guidance on the target, the maximum firing range will be about 60-80 km (neither the Chinese nor the Indians have better missiles). And here, too, the radar does not matter.
In reality, a random battle takes place at distances of less than 40 km and very quickly slides to close combat, where the difference in radar does not matter.

[VAF]

Quote: Leonid Khar

but he will need to make a maneuver while he is deploying and taking a more advantageous position, the Indian learns about the enemy and gets in the tail at the expense of

And why turn around then

[yehat]

Quote: Leonid Har

while he is turning around and taking a better position

2-4 seconds

[sergant89]

A copy cannot be better than the original (unless of course there are huge gaps in the production time of the first and second), But let's take an example, auto production: 20year ago, no one knew what Kia and Hyundai were (yes, these are not Chinese) - now they have occupied a huge niche in having outstripped all competitors and brought Japanese quality to the world, and even trying to create premium brands, the Koreans themselves admit that the Chinese are repeating their path almost 100%, but with one change, they will do it 2-3 times faster, so through 8-10 years no one will be surprised if there are Chinese premium (the most important brands demanded by consumers) not to mention low-cost cars. I absolutely do not sing praises to the Chinese, but they do not stand still and invest huge amounts of money in technology, education, while not forgetting the military-industrial complex, like something like that

[La-5]

This is not really about copies, but about the development of machines created on the same base. The Chinese know how to bring other people's ideas to mind. A good example is the MiG-19, if the USSR did not bother much with bringing the crude machine (and soon abandoned the MiG-21 altogether), then the Chinese, who did not get the 21st, squeezed everything out of the 19th.

[Good cat]

"so in 8-10 years no one will be surprised if Chinese premium brands (most importantly, brands demanded by consumers) appear"
I doubt it very much, it takes a lot of time that the Chinese "brands" were in demand. For many people, "Chinese" is now a synonym of poor quality. IMHO

[sebast]

At one time, German was also a synonym for low quality.

[Jipo]

In what century? Starting from Peter, in Russia, German was in honor. There was a failure after Frederick the Great, but again, what is 50-60 years old and already from the 70s of the 19th century, building the Empire, Germany went forward by leaps and bounds.

[yehat]

the industry has always had some kind of specialization.
in the 18-19 centuries, the British Empire was a leader in technology and quality in many areas, but the Germans in the era of rearmament after the state created by Bismarck between 1870 and 1910 very seriously advanced in industry and became leaders in quality.
Now quality is vital for the Germans because they have an export economy. There will be no quality - the country will die. Pay attention at what level they now hold the basic quality standards and how much it costs them.

[samoletil18]

Quote: Good cat

For many people, "Chinese" is now a synonym of poor quality. IMHO

Please let Pakistan know.

[Magic archer]

Not so long ago there was information that the Chinese still can not copy the engine. Are they interested in copying it all the same, or is it still their own development?

[La-5]

The Chinese could not copy the AL-31, and ours do not give it, and its own WS-10A engine is not operational.

[Bongo]

Quote: Magic Archer

Not so long ago there was information that the Chinese still can not copy the engine. Are they interested in copying it all the same, or is it still their own development?

The Chinese have the main problem in creating their own and copying Russian engines is that so far the Chinese can not make high-quality blades of titanium alloy. The level of Chinese metallurgy and materials science do not yet allow this. But this is only a matter of time, sooner or later they will succeed. Moreover, at the aircraft factory in Komsomolsk, avionics with a Chinese and Indian element base are installed when assembling aircraft. So we should not be deceived.

[zollstab]

With almost equal characteristics, the main power of the aircraft in its pilot. Without options.

[igor36]

that the Indian Su-30MKI, despite the use of radars without AFAR and the absence of missiles of the PL-10 level, have an undeniable numerical advantage.

In addition to the J-16, China has 100 pieces. Su-30 Russian production, 76 pcs. Su-27 and 140 pcs. J-11, so against the 200 Su-30MKI, the Chinese in numbers will not give in exactly.

[iwind]

Who is to blame for this? We ourselves fed them with our military technologies, to be honest that they will not copy ... So everything is natural here, but if we also sell them a su-35 "huge" batch of 16 pieces ...
The whole world has already lit 30 led an embargo on the sale of military equipment with China

[Vitamin72]

Russian and Chinese are brothers forever! So in my opinion this slogan sounded ....

[Nasty pirate]

Quote: iwind

We ourselves fed them with our military technology, to be honest that they will not copy ...

Well, if it weren’t us, then Ukraine would sell our technology to China. I hope that we will not sell the Su-35 and S-400, especially in small batches, because China, if not our enemy, is at least a competitor.

[qwert]

It is generally known that the Su-30MKI has engines with a deflected thrust vector. It is also known that China is not yet capable of independently producing Al-31 engines with characteristics even of the level of the 90's, not to mention the UVT nozzle. To assert that their flight characteristics are equal, knowing such facts, is really cunning. About AFAR and PFAR. Well, AFAR is certainly more fashionable. However, the MiG-31 with its PFAR was superior to many created later radars with AFAR. The UAV is now in fashion, but this does not mean that manned aircraft are worse. Well and more. To compare Chinese-made and Russian-made planes ... Here, the quality of the Hindus is clearly higher. At least for now, higher .... That’s worth remembering ...

[goose]

Quote: patsantre

What nonsense, why turn around if you can immediately launch a rocket? And how does an Indian settle in his tail at a distance of about 200 km?

The Su-27 is not the B-52, the real visibility of such aircraft on modern AFARs is about 80 km, even less on the background of the earth. At counter speeds of the order of 1000 km / h near the ground, before the collision, the reaction time decreases to about 2 minutes. The launch of medium-range missiles is far from always possible during this period. Most likely, the launch range will not exceed 20-30 km. And this is almost a melee. So maneuverability can really come in handy for BVB.
In the presence of AWACS aircraft a completely different alignment.

[patsantre]

Quote: goose

Su-27 is not B-52, the real visibility of such aircraft on modern AFAR is about 80 km

What nonsense, where does the figure come from? The radar of the same target raptor with an EPR level of Su-27 sees from 250-300 km.

[supertiger21]

Quote: patsantre

The radar of the same target raptor with an EPR level of Su-27 sees from 250-300 km.

I do not agree! As far as I know, the AN / APG-77 radar sees 235 km (which is less than your numbers).

[patsantre]

The essence of this will not change, but I saw different numbers on the Internet. And 235, and 270-300. Which is not the point, nevertheless, for the difference from 80 is enormous.

[yehat]

these are the maximum values. in reality, the distance decreases.
Broiler 747 at a distance of 230 can be seen, but the su-27 is unlikely ...

[VAF]

Quote: goose

At counter speeds of the order of 1000 km / h near the ground, before the collision, the reaction time decreases to about 2 minutes.

If you will fly near the ground at speeds of about 1000 km / h, then your database area will be in the 4th turn area on the departure aerodrome (exaggerated. of course. but for ease of perception )

Quote: goose

The launch of medium-range missiles is far from always possible during this period.

What does this have to do with it? When was the flight speed a limitation for the operation of the RLSPK and the fulfillment of command and control, capture and launch?

Quote: goose

. Most likely, the launch range will not exceed 20-30 km

NL-10M in hand and we consider (even at your "terrible speeds of 1000 km) and" blind "radar that we have that the enemy, suppose they found each other at ranges of 100-120 km.
How much per minute? What is the range obtained, even if you take your "terrible 2 minutes for the" combat operation "mode (I will tell you a secret that for a rocket from the" Stone Age "times this time is half less (and the time consists of switching on the PN for radiation, the formation of the NK aiming mode -45, classifying the target, performing aiming and issuing target designation to the head of the rocket, passing all the commands (up to battery inflation and the launch itself).
Therefore, where did you get the mythical 20-30 km ..... a silent scene

Quote: goose

In the presence of AWACS aircraft a completely different alignment.

And that Bars and Irbis, Barrier have less ability to independently detect enemy aircraft

It is clear your desire. In the light of attending air shows and views of flights at air shows, "drag" the maintenance of the database to the plane of the WB at "cannon fire" distances .. but in modern realities this is very, very far from the case!

[Jurkovs]

There have been no regional conflicts for a long time, but it makes no sense to compare on paper.

[patsantre]

Ryabov's articles are immediately recognizable. A lot of text, a lot of uncertainty, which simply freezes out ("presumably", "not exactly known", "most likely", "although", "does not allow to speak with confidence") - by this he seems to completely disclaim responsibility for the fact that writes. Everything that is written in this article can fit into one paragraph. A whole, mother, article, but there is no unequivocal opinion, and of the whole heap of characteristics, only the presence of AFAR and PGO was compared. Please, Kirill, no more such articles are needed.

[silver_roman]

cars are similar. superiority in something by 10% and shortcomings in the same ranges will be compensated by the professional skills of the pilots and their skills. So I don’t even see the point of comparing two almost identical aircraft.
Arming these aircraft is another matter. here the difference can already be felt.
By the way, such a nuance: our engines, which are on the "Indians", have a greater resource. The Chinese have long been hunting for alloy of the turbine blades of our engines.

[VAF]

Quote: silver_roman

Arming these aircraft is another matter. here the difference can already be felt.

And who said that the new Hindu Astra is worse than the "newfangled" 10 Chinese?
And according to the reviews of people "very knowledgeable and participating" in these events ... our (Hindu-Russian-Israeli-French) complex .. "had" in all places "everything" that is in service with NATO and their ... " comrade " and at the same time not in "full combat mode"

[patsantre]

Those. You want to say that the Su-30MKI is the most advanced avionics? Can I have a little more details?)

[VAF]

Quote: patsantre

Those. You want to say that the Su-30MKI is the most advanced avionics?

Not the most perfect, but very, very worthy !!! In more detail, nizya.time is not the same .. here is the volume of the faces of NATE .. here then please.
And by the way. and on MKM even better!

[silver_roman]

Well ... as usual, the intrigue is introduced, but there is no specifics
it would be extremely interesting ...
although by itself, everything is clear, which is secret. just kidding a little

[silver_roman]

Quote: vaf

And who said that the new Hindu Astra is worse than the "newfangled" 10 Chinese?

no, I'm not saying worse. just with comparable performance characteristics of the aviation complex (glider, airborne systems, engines, etc.), weapons can play a significant role both in terms of advantages and disadvantages. I talk about this.
and at the expense of armaments, to be honest, I’m not really in the know, I won’t say much. the Chinese have everything behind a veil of secrecy, in principle, as it should be!

[52]

So-so article, such as a pitchfork on snot on oilcloth. Dry from the Indians, Dry from the tea country ... Who is stronger ... Yes S-400, damn it!

[Free wind]

The article is needed. and primarily those. to know what the Chinese have. China is probably the most secret country, no one knows what the Chinese weapons are. considering China as a printer is no longer even funny. No one knows. what is China’s military potential, what is the weaponry of the Chinese. And why is China so actively arming itself? But it seems to me nothing at all for a war with the USA.

[tomket]

The United States has the worst nightmare, this is our alliance with China. and they will just throw articles at the expense of the war between us and China. as for armaments, the usa has fraudulent bridgeheads for hitting china; these are south korea, taiwan, japan, and the Obama tour showed us that they are seriously afraid of china. we certainly need vigilance, but you shouldn’t panic

[sania275]

Our science does not stand still. Not entitled to lag-devour

[Giant thought]

Best of all, when the comparison takes place on paper, without real fighting. Nobody needs war, but gunpowder must be kept dry.

[tomket]

Yes, this is all nonsense, the plane in fact is the same, here the skill of the pilots will play a greater role than the presence or absence of PGO or Chinese Pribluda, which is on paper, but in reality it is not known ...

[dmitrij.blyuz]

Rivalry? I beg you.

[dmitrij.blyuz]

There is something else.

[yehat]

Quote: Good cat

For many people, "Chinese" is now a synonym of poor quality. IMHO

this is because traders are buying up the cheapest and often clandestine production.
The products of legal enterprises in China are of normal quality, and sometimes just excellent.

[yehat]

I would say that comparing the performance characteristics of aircraft is now a little meaningful exercise. Combat effectiveness is very dependent on the support forces. At the Dutch heights, the Mig-25s were shot down not because he was worse, but because he acted in an extremely unfavorable environment, made up of a number of Israeli advantages, often not even in his role. (he had nothing to do near the ground). And who specifically launched the finishing rocket - yes, it was possible to equip some kind of piston aircraft if only it could take away a couple of missiles. in light of this, the Chinese have an edge - their means of supporting the Air Force are better than Indians.

[aspid21]

Can we, if we want?