Test T-34 and KV at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in the USA. 1942 year

654
Test T-34 and KV at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in the USA. 1942 yearThe UTZ at the beginning of 1942 was given the task of shipping five standard T-34 samples, two of which were to go a long way by sea - to the UK and the United States to be studied by Allied specialists of this “miracle of Soviet engineering thought”.

Tanks arrived in the USA presumably in April 1942, and in May they were tested at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. There, the T-34, which caused the greatest interest, underwent long-distance cross-country trials, together with the T-4 wheeled caterpillar tank, whose characteristics most closely corresponded to the performance characteristics of the domestic medium tank.

The first T-34 breakdown (truck burst) occurred approximately at 60-m kilometer, and after overcoming 343 km the tank failed and could not be repaired.

The breakdown occurred due to the poor performance of the air cleaner, why a lot of dust had accumulated in the engine and the pistons and cylinders were destroyed. The tank was removed from the test run, but was tested by firing a KB gun and a 3-inch gun of the M-10 self-propelled cannon, and then found its refuge in the collection of the test site in Aberdeen. The KB tank, despite the greatest fears from our tank builders, will withstand normal tests with a mileage of 50 km.

The hull shape of the T-34 tank was very much liked by all American experts, while KB — not.

An analysis of the armor showed that in both tanks the armor plates, homogeneous in chemical composition, had a shallow surface hardening, the bulk of the armor plate was viscous.

Tank T-34 at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, rear view, 1942

American experts believed. that, by changing the technology of seaming armor plates, it was possible to reduce their thickness, leaving the same projectile resistance. However, this statement was later not confirmed by practice.

The main disadvantage of the hull was water permeability as its lower part when overcoming water obstacles, and the upper part when it rained. In heavy rain a lot of water leaked through the cracks, which could lead to failure of electrical equipment and even ammunition. The location of ammunition found successful.

The main disadvantage noted for the tower and the fighting compartment as a whole - the cramped. The Americans could not understand how our tankers were mad in a tank in winter coats. There was a bad mechanism of rotation of the tower, especially since the motor is weak, overloaded and sparking terribly, resulting in burned resistance adjusting the speed of rotation, crumbled gear teeth. A wish was made to make a hydraulic turning mechanism or to leave only a two-stage manual.

F-34 gun dismantled from the T-34 tank. Aberdeen Proving Ground, 1942

The gun F-34 liked the gunners for its simplicity, reliability in operation and ease of maintenance. The lack of a tool is recognized as an insufficiently high initial speed (around 620 m / s versus a possible 850 m / s), which is associated with the low quality of Soviet powder.

The design of the sight was recognized as beautiful, even the best in the world from the famous American designers, but the quality of the glass left much to be desired.

Steel tracks T-34 were simple in design, wide, but American (rubber-metal), according to their ideas, were better. The disadvantage of our track chain, the Americans found the low strength of the truck to break. This was aggravated by the poor quality of the track fingers.

The suspension on the T-34 tank was considered bad, because the Americans had unconditionally refused the “Christie” suspension as obsolete. At the same time, the suspension tank KB (torsion) is recognized as successful.

The diesel B-2 is lightweight and quick-turn. All the US military liked diesel tanks, they regretted that all the powerful diesel engines in the United States took the fleet for boats, which did not allow them to equip mass-produced tanks.

Disadvantages of diesel В-2 - bad air cleaner, which:

1) does not clean at all the air entering the motor;

2) the capacity of the air cleaner is small and does not provide the inflow of the required amount of air even when the motor is idling.

As a result, the motor does not develop full power and the dust falling into the cylinders leads to their quick triggering, compression drops and the motor loses power.

Tank KB-1 on tests at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. Spring 1942

In addition, the filter is made from a mechanical point of view is very primitive: in places of spot electric welding, the metal is burned, which leads to oil leakage, etc.

The KB filter on the KB tank is better made, but it also does not ensure the flow of sufficiently clean air.

Transmission unsatisfactory, obviously outdated design. During its operation on the test she had completely crumbled the teeth on all gears. On both motors, bad starters are thin and of unreliable design.

The T-34 and KB tanks were, from the American point of view, slow-moving, though due to good adhesion with the ground they overcame the slopes better than any of the American tanks. The welding of armor plates is extremely rough and careless. The radio stations during laboratory tests turned out to be quite good, however, due to poor screening and poor protective devices, after installing them in tanks, it was not possible to have a normal connection at a distance greater than 10 miles. The compactness of radio stations and their location in the machines are very successful. Mechanical processing of parts of equipment and parts with rare exceptions is very bad.
So, the Soviet T-34 and KB did not produce a furore overseas (? !!!! And then they had something to compare !!!). American designers have found in them both advantages and disadvantages, which is natural.

Information taken from the book "Tank power of the USSR."
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  1. +29
    6 July 2013 07: 33
    Nevertheless, despite all these shortcomings, even tank building, even in aviation, it is WE, our grandfathers, who broke the backbone of fascism, which was born with the support of the same moneybags from England and the USA. Who watched the war, quietly standing on the sidelines, waiting for someone whom.
    1. duke
      +31
      6 July 2013 07: 49
      as in general under the most difficult conditions, our ancestors-grandfathers and great-grandfathers were able to evacuate the factories, set up the production of equipment in such a short time ... it was not up to quality, the plans for the number of cars were draconian, and many specialists were lost, most likely old men, women and teenagers worked there, unlike American factories, where there was no such force majeure. In addition, at that time, English production culture was one of the best.
      1. +2
        6 July 2013 09: 06
        Dmitry (Goblin) Puchkov answered this very well.
        Here is the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z-mziUnjLI
      2. -16
        6 July 2013 09: 16
        Quote: duke
        most likely old men, women and teenagers worked there, unlike American factories, where there was no such force majeure

        And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed Europe, Africa and the Far East.
        1. +3
          6 July 2013 10: 47
          Quote: professor
          And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed

          What about children?
          1. -6
            6 July 2013 10: 52
            Quote: ultra
            What about children?

            To be honest, I was not interested in becoming American teenagers to the machine. request
          2. erg
            0
            8 July 2013 19: 41
            Child labor in the United States was practiced until the middle of the 20th century. And not only in wartime.
          3. Apologet insane
            -2
            12 July 2013 20: 49
            Who cares. For that matter, they could not fight at all, and not put anyone at the machines, but just watch. We didn’t help the allies until Hitler attacked. But as he attacked, so immediately Stalin rushed to ask Churchill for help.
            1. erg
              +1
              13 July 2013 10: 37
              So, after all, there were no allies among us until Hitler attacked. Neither England, nor France, nor the United States had any corresponding agreements. Except maybe with Mongolia. So we helped them defeat the Japanese. All agreements with future allies appeared during the war. And we fulfilled our obligations, for example, having entered the war with Japan despite the treaty of not attacking with this country.
              1. Apologet insane
                0
                14 July 2013 13: 09
                That's just the point that was not. And they didn’t have an agreement with us until Germany attacked us. Moreover, they readily accepted us as an ally, although at that moment, for the entire democratic world, Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same totalitarian coin. But they could not have concluded any agreements with us - just watch the two giants destroy each other, and then finish off both of them in one fell swoop.
            2. 0
              13 July 2013 16: 52
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              We didn’t help the allies until Hitler attacked. But as he attacked, so immediately Stalin rushed to ask Churchill for help.

              Was it really so?
              Archives have a long memory, unfortunately for people like you.
              When I read such peremptory statements, I always want to know _ Because of his stupidity, a person says so or is a dirty trick in life.
              1. Apologet insane
                0
                14 July 2013 13: 05
                And how did we help Great Britain, which was left alone in 1940-41 with all the power of Europe concentrated in Hitler's hands, and Japan, which seized overseas territories? Friendly notes in the Pravda newspaper?
                1. 0
                  14 July 2013 16: 23
                  Quote: Apologet Insane
                  And how we helped the UK,

                  By its existence, as it is not strange for you.
                  And why only WE?
                  May 24, 1940 the famous stop order and, as a result, the Dunker Miracle!
                  Well, of course, where without them, the great USA!
                  Have you read?
                  Stettinius Edward
                  Mysteries of Lend-Lease Formula for Victory
                  http://www.e-reading-lib.com/bookreader.php/142938/Stettinius_-_Zagadki_lend-liz
                  a.html
                  Very sobering, after all, is the 44th edition year!
                  hi
        2. duke
          +6
          6 July 2013 17: 41
          I thank you, it seems that it was, but the conditions were still not comparable, this can be seen even in your pictures ...
          1. aviator46
            0
            8 July 2013 22: 02
            http://topwar.ru/17230-mashina-vremeni-ssha-sorokovye-chast-2.html
            Who forged victory in America ..
        3. +16
          6 July 2013 18: 30
          Quote: kirpich
          And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed Europe, Africa and the Far East.


          With all due respect, but the% of the US population who acted on the WWII fronts or served in the Navy or merchant fleet can not be compared with the% of the USSR population called up for military service or in the territory occupied by the Nazis.
          1. shpuntik
            +4
            6 July 2013 20: 35
            Blackgrifon Today, 18:30 PM ↑ New
            Quote: kirpich
            And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed Europe, Africa and the Far East.

            : -) Alexander, take a closer look! If the brick hits the head of the professor, then he will not become Einstein :-)
        4. +4
          7 July 2013 08: 53
          Quote: professor
          while their husbands and brothers liberated Europe, Africa and the Far East.

          Here is Africa, this YES !
          Especially the colony, there was something to fight for. But Europe and the Far East ... The ratio of the liberated territories is not in favor the most powerful state .
          1. Apologet insane
            0
            12 July 2013 20: 56
            Again they had to fight for the whole Pacific Ocean. Plus, their landing operations themselves are much more risky and costly than ground battles from prepared bridgeheads. And they defeated the Japanese almost single-handedly - our defeat of the Kwantung Army is certainly good, but it should be borne in mind that we were armed with the latest technology, which even had no time to fight with Germany, and the Japanese with frail wedges and old cannons, of which there were almost no armor-piercing ones. The level of equipment of the Kwantung Army was worse than that of the Soviet troops in the first months of the war. Therefore, ours so easily dealt with it as the Germans dealt with us in 1941. Only we had reserves and rear, but the Kwantung Army did not have either. So almost the entire Far East, Pacific Ocean, Southeast Asia and half of Europe are territories liberated by the armies of the British and Americans.
            1. 0
              13 July 2013 17: 10
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              their landing operations in themselves are much more risky and costly than land battles from trained bridgeheads.

              So I think either from admiration for army property to fall into rapture, or to burst into tears with pity.
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              almost the entire Far East, Pacific Ocean, Southeast Asia and half of Europe are territories liberated by the armies of the British and Americans.

              The right way, you go the way Apologet insane , the next one, I think I will not wait long, your step will be a statement about their fundamental contribution to the defeat of the Third Reich.
        5. The comment was deleted.
        6. -2
          7 July 2013 22: 36
          Monument to women who took jobs of men who went to war. London, not far from Downing Street
          1. 0
            7 July 2013 22: 56
            does not insert ...
            1. +5
              7 July 2013 23: 19
              And we also have such monuments:
              Memorial complex "Khatyn"
              1. +3
                7 July 2013 23: 20
                And there are such:
                "Children of war"
                1. +6
                  7 July 2013 23: 21
                  And there are such
                  1. -2
                    7 July 2013 23: 37
                    Well, my comment was that not only our women stood at the machines, but what did you want to remind about? If it’s about the fact that before we won, we gave half the country and millions of lives mediocrely, then to the place. And if, like the local majority, “we are cooler in everything,” even in losses and grief, then one could refrain. And if this is personal to me, then I don't need to teach patriotism, I had the time and opportunity to show it in practice.
                    1. +5
                      8 July 2013 00: 09
                      Quote: alex86
                      If, before winning, we stupidly gave half the country and millions of lives ... then I do not need to be taught patriotism, I had time and the opportunity to show it in practice


                      Well then, they should understand what a strategic initiative is, the concentration of troops and equipment in breakthrough areas ...
                      Perhaps you studied at the Academy of the General Staff, and learned how to drive troops not only on a platoon and company scale.
                      And you are surely aware of ALL commonplace truths of intelligence of all kinds (undercover, technical, military, etc.), as well, at least, you understand the rear support, mobilization plans, the organization of arms production ...
                      And therefore, you will not refer to the precedent of the Battle of Kursk ...
                      1. -1
                        8 July 2013 07: 04
                        What are you talking about? ...
                    2. +2
                      8 July 2013 01: 23
                      Quote: alex86
                      that before winning, we stupidly gave half the country and millions of lives

                      Well, tell us - mediocrity, what mediocrity of the defensive battles of 1941-1942 years. Can you give examples of other countries that have gently restrained the German attack in 1939-1941?
                      1. -10
                        8 July 2013 07: 18
                        No need to juggle about
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        mediocrity of the defensive battles of 1941-1942.
                        , I didn't say anything about it at all. I mean the result - once again - they gave half of the country, lost millions of lives - is that "darno" in your terminology? And to refer to someone's failures of that time is not constructive, you need to answer for yourself.
                        And ineptly we approached the beginning of the war, thanks to the state system built by the "leader of all nations, a linguist and a friend of children, and so on and so forth," in the country. We were preparing for a big war, it was clear to everyone that it would not be easy, but "with little blood, on a foreign land," but we got everything exactly the opposite.
                      2. +3
                        8 July 2013 08: 12
                        Quote: alex86
                        We prepared ... "with little blood, on a foreign land",

                        Facts! Who! When! That said it!
                        O GREAT YOU ARE OUR STRATEG AND PATRIOT, you already decide or
                        Quote: alex86
                        we have lost half the country and millions of lives
                        or
                        Quote: alex86
                        I didn’t say anything about it

                        for as a result of the summer and the beginning of the winter company 1941 of the year, the Germans reached Moscow, and as a result of the summer company 1942 of the year they also reached Stalingrad.
                        If you claim that we gave half the country mediocre, then tell me how it was necessary to fight for free and not give half the country and millions of lives. And if not a secret, your last military rank.
                      3. -2
                        8 July 2013 17: 25
                        I am not a great strategist, I give this high title to you, mind you, I have never said what should have been done (my quote "I did not say anything about it at all" - I absolutely do not pretend to know what and how should have been done, You probably know better); but a patriot, and as such I have the right to evaluate the result - they gave half the country and millions of lives, if from your point of view, they gave it talentedly - even so, the wording is strange, but I am ready to use it in the future.
                        My last rank, apparently, senior lieutenant, I had it when I was demobilized in 86 with the definition of "limited valid", the military ID was somehow quickly lost, but I don't think that something has changed. Answering the question you asked below: he graduated from the Kazan Civil Engineering Institute, a rocket artilleryman (BM-21), but served in a civilian specialty - a civil engineer (and you will laugh - but he even received a medal). Do you want to humiliate me somehow, that I have no right to express my point of view? - so the Internet is free, and here we are on an equal footing, and I don’t know your qualifications, and you can say anything at the same time - well, for example, you graduated from a culinary college (no offense), but you say that the Academy of the General Staff - and what has changed from this?
                      4. +3
                        8 July 2013 18: 16
                        Quote: alex86
                        You want to somehow humiliate me that I have no right to express my point of view?

                        To humiliate you? God forbid. It’s just that I was interested in what kind of military education you have, now it’s clear - not what (and this is just a statement of fact), you are an ordinary, competent civil engineer. Are you at home? If so, how do you feel about a person who does not have an engineering background, if he begins to judge the house you built, you have built it mediocre or not? You, without having a higher military education, undertake to judge things in which you poorly understand (tactics, strategy).
                        I have not mentioned anywhere that the 1941 - 1942 companies are brilliant and impeccable. What happened in the summer of 1941 is a tragedy, a great tragedy! But I cannot say that it happened because of the mediocrity of the command (because I also do not have a higher military education). But I know that the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army did everything possible, and sometimes beyond what was humanly possible, but they braked, wore out the Wehrmacht, this gave time for the evacuation of factories, people, etc. And as a result, they still stopped the enemy, I would like it to be as west as possible, but the Wehrmacht was stronger. Let me remind you that only the Red Army was able to withstand the Wehrmacht, the Anglo-French forces could not do this in 1940, although there were more of them than the Germans.
                      5. -2
                        8 July 2013 18: 34
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        You, without having a higher military education, undertake to judge things in which you poorly understand (tactics, strategy).
                        In no place did I judge either tactics or strategy, but only about the result - if someone, not being an expert, judges how I built, this is funny, but if my house is half destroyed, it will be funny to deny the claims even if he is an amateur under the pretext that he is not an expert - the house has fallen, it means I am to blame, and where I was wrong, what is my fault - he worries the least. Therefore, I repeat - half of the country was given away, millions of people (their own) lost. The "builder" is to blame - who built the country and the system of its governance.

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        . What happened in the summer of 1941 is a tragedy, a great tragedy!

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        But I know that the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army did everything possible, and sometimes beyond what was humanly possible, but they braked, wore out the Wehrmacht, this gave time for the evacuation of factories, people, etc. And as a result, they still stopped the enemy, I would like it to be as west as possible, but the Wehrmacht was stronger. Let me remind you that only the Red Army was able to withstand the Wehrmacht, in 1940 the Anglo-French forces could not do this, although there were more of them than the Germans.

                        And here there are no objections, neither in essence, nor in the spirit of the statement ...
                      6. +3
                        8 July 2013 11: 44
                        Quote: alex86
                        No need to juggle about

                        Sorry, you perfectly signed on this branch about your position - there’s no need to evade.

                        My advice.
                        Read ALL authors, all sources. But MAKE CONCLUSIONS, ANALYZE FACTS. No one is safe from mistakes (here, by the way, the battles of the Katukovites and Guderianites in October of the 1941 were perfectly dismantled), even by venerable authors.
                        And believe me, in the verses of Bunich, Rezun, Beshanov and others like them, except for the frenzied hatred of the country that pulled the WORLD CIVILIZATION out of mortal danger, paying an inconceivable price for this, you really will find nothing but a beautiful collection of figures about losses soaked in a spray of saliva as the same "fabulists" Solzhenitsyn and Shalamov tried to do.
                      7. -2
                        8 July 2013 17: 35
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And believe me, in the verses of Bunich, Rezun, Beshanov and others like them
                        Sorry, but I didn’t read anything from the aforementioned, I heard about Rezun, but somehow this is not close to me. I’m not evading the stated position, it’s quite clear, but I don’t need any advice - I’ve already left the age of the listener of advice - excuse me. But I draw conclusions, analyze the facts - and it is from this that my position arises. And you signed the phrase about your position
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        "fabulists" Solzhenitsyn, Shalamov.

                        , and now what to put you on the wall?
                      8. +5
                        8 July 2013 17: 43
                        Quote: alex86
                        , and now what, put you to the wall

                        You have an amazing trait - "bring under the wall" opponents, without a drop of doubt believing in your own infallibility.
                        Our exchange of views is like a dialogue between the deaf and the blind ..
                        Then I take my leave.
                        hi
                      9. -2
                        8 July 2013 17: 52
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        You have an amazing trait - "bring under the wall" opponents, without a drop of doubt believing in your own infallibility.

                        This is just your position (not only yours personally, but that group that shares your point of view)
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Our exchange of views is like a dialogue between the deaf and the blind ..
                        I completely agree with you
              2. aviator46
                0
                8 July 2013 22: 09
                Khatyn, which was destroyed by Ukrainian collaborators.
        7. aviator46
          0
          8 July 2013 22: 12
          http://topwar.ru/17230-mashina-vremeni-ssha-sorokovye-chast-2.html
        8. Jin
          0
          10 July 2013 14: 08
          Quote: professor
          And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed Europe, Africa and the Far East.


          It was a little ... why did they get up? out of necessity or out of patriotism? how many Americans fought on the fronts? We have the whole country fought and there was no one to stand at the machine tools, and they? What kind of nonsense dear? Also write that valiant Americans spent the night at the machines ... Posters! Make-up, mannequin, well-fed and clean ... propaganda and rubbish, pah, heresy! negative
    2. -47
      6 July 2013 09: 13
      Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans. Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition? The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...
      1. pavlo
        +39
        6 July 2013 09: 23
        the second front when it was really open something miracle you are in feathers! That's when they saw that the fascists were a real kopek and they would have to share the cake, then they already started to fuss !!!!
        1. -28
          6 July 2013 09: 32
          Quote: pavlo
          the second front when it was really open something miracle you are in feathers! That's when they saw that the fascists were a real kopek and they would have to share the cake, then they already started to fuss !!!!

          I don’t need to "poke", we didn’t graze geese in one meadow. angry More than half a million dead American soldiers - this is at least the same number of saved Soviet soldiers. Tales about the financing of Hitler by the Americans did not forget to mention here, and the Lend-Lease in their memory was not delayed.
          1. ramsi
            +20
            6 July 2013 09: 41
            from somewhere I remember the figure that 8 out of 10 dead Germans died on the eastern front
            So, the remaining "2" are made up of the losses of the local population under the bombing and, in fact, the "second front"
          2. +23
            6 July 2013 10: 28
            Churchill seemed to say "... the Soviet army gutted the Wehrmacht ..."
          3. shpuntik
            +9
            6 July 2013 20: 44

            Professor (1) Today, 09: 32 ↑
            "... and Lend-Lease is not deposited in their memory."

            "Leningradka" prefecture, don't you know it, Professor?
            There is also "Stalingrad" and "American aid" :-)
            For Lend-Lease, we paid 50 years, with interest. Thank you, of course, we earned several shekels for us :-)
            1. 0
              6 July 2013 21: 01
              Much less if you are not in the know. And without interest.

              delivered materials (cars, various military equipment, weapons, raw materials, other items) destroyed, lost and used during the war are not subject to payment (Article 5);
              property transferred under Lend-Lease property remaining after the end of the war and suitable for civilian purposes will be paid in full or in part on the basis of long-term loans provided by the United States (mainly interest-free loans);

              Since the Lend-Lease Act provided for the cancellation of used military equipment and materials, the Americans insisted on paying only for civil supplies: railway transport, power plants, ships, trucks and other equipment that were in the recipient countries as of September 2, 1945. The United States did not demand compensation for the military equipment destroyed during the fighting.

              The volume of US Lend-Lease deliveries amounted to about 11 billion US dollars. At the 1948 talks, Soviet representatives agreed to pay only a small amount and met the predicted failure of the American side. The negotiations of 1949 also led to nothing. In 1951, the Americans twice reduced the amount of payment, which began to equal $ 800 million, but the Soviet side agreed to pay only $ 300 million.

              An agreement with the USSR on the procedure for paying off debts under Lend-Lease was concluded only in 1972 [42]. Under this agreement, the USSR pledged to pay $ 2001 million, including interest, until 722. By July 1973, three payments were made for a total of $ 48 million, after which payments were discontinued. In June 1990, during negotiations between the presidents of the USA and the USSR, the parties returned to the discussion of the debt [43]. A new deadline for the final repayment of debt was set in 2030, and the amount was $ 674 million.
              After the collapse of the USSR, the debt for help was reissued to Russia (Yeltsin, Kozyrev), as of 2003, Russia owed approximately 100 million US dollars.
              Thus, of the total volume of US Lend-Lease deliveries of $ 11 billion, the USSR, and then Russia, recognized and then partially paid, $ 722 million, or about 7%. However, it is worth considering that today's dollar is "lighter" than the 1945 dollar by about 15 times.

              So what percentages are we talking about?
              1. +4
                6 July 2013 21: 37
                Quote: Pimply


                So what percentages are we talking about?

                As far as I know, all supplies of strategic materials under Lend-Lease were paid for in gold and precious stones. Military equipment, weapons, transport, which were not paid for, at the end of the war, were supplied according to completeness. The acceptance was very serious. The equipment should be fully stocked, up to the last key, painted. Imagine what it is if, for example, the Sherman-M-4 tank was equipped with leather coats for each crew member, the seats were covered with natural leather, there was an electric stove, a thermos, etc. Yes, all this disappeared even at the port of unloading. At the end of acceptance, the equipment was rendered unusable, by pressing, disassembling and loaded into the holds of ships, then for processing. Paid equipment and weapons were in service with the Red Army for a long time, for example Sherman M-4 until almost 60 years.
                1. Cat
                  +6
                  6 July 2013 22: 21
                  Quote: bistrov.
                  As far as I know, all deliveries of strategic Lend-Lease materials were paid for in gold and precious stones. At the end of the war, military equipment, weapons, and vehicles that were not paid were completed for completeness.

                  wrong you know
                  Equipment destroyed in battle was not paid. Generally. But for the one that survived, there were 2 options: either return to the states, or redeem for your own use.
                  Actually, it was these nuances of the land lease that differed from the usual sale of weapons.

                  well, then
                  Quote: bistrov.
                  for example, the Sherman-M-4 tank was equipped with leather coats for each crew member, the seats were covered with genuine leather, there was an electric stove, a thermos, etc. Yes, all this disappeared even at the port of unloading.

                  does this mean that amers are scum? They are, of course, scum ... but not in this particular case. Because this particular case very well characterizes our rear rats, but it does not characterize amers at all. And if you really want to fool them - try to choose a more successful example for this.
                  1. +4
                    7 July 2013 12: 50
                    Very carefully pushed the grease out of the gun at the Emchi laughing Often a viscar bubble was stuffed into the barrel, along with lubricant. So not all of them are dumb, normal guys, and there were enough laughing
                2. Cheloveck
                  +3
                  8 July 2013 01: 03
                  Quote: bistrov.
                  Imagine what it is if, for example, the Sherman-M-4 tank was equipped with leather coats for each crew member, the seats were covered with natural leather, there was an electric stove, a thermos, etc. Yes, all this disappeared even at the port of unloading.
                  No need to produce myths.
                  Sherman’s re-conservation was carried out directly in the troops.
                  In the presence of observers - Americans and the Soviet reception, if Che.
                  (D.F. Loza "Tanker in a foreign car")
                  Sherman’s package did not include the gadgets you described.
                  (I wonder where to connect the stove in the tank?)
                  The richest complete set was supplied by "Matilda" supplied from England (summer and winter overalls, fur helmets, fur boots).
                  As for leather seats, in those simple times, sales on the ZiS-5 before the war were covered with genuine leather, it was not a luxury in those days.
              2. +8
                7 July 2013 04: 46
                Pimply
                According to American financiers and people who were calculating Lend-Lease, the USA in this case earned quite a lot and boosted the economy ... I can find confirmation quickly enough ... do I have to submit quotes (honestly, I don’t want to, too lazy)?
                You just amaze me ... like such clever men ... and then it burst .... do you not understand that they’ll catch you by the hand? Or do you care that you were caught? Damn, well, you can’t!
                Pupyrchaty .... officially declare- a liar ... and a liar precisely because you are silent about the fact that the program has boosted the US economy, that they got the benefit of not even receiving part of the money for the Lend-Lease, which they later calculated on after the war (if it were - it would be easier, but you are far from ... and then who are you? ... the enemy?), etc. ... tomorrow, somewhere around 13 Moscow time, I will be on the site .... I would like to have an answer by then ... if possible, I understand, I myself can break for a week ... not on my own initiative .... but I hope for your answer ...
                1. -7
                  7 July 2013 11: 37
                  Give a link to the opinion of these American financiers. I beg. You claim that it is - I want to see it.

                  The United States naturally benefited from the war, but it was expressed not in Lend-Lease money, but in the fact that the United States suffered an order of magnitude less damage in the war than other countries, and, accordingly, had more opportunities to quickly transfer the economy to a peaceful track. I responded to a specific statement, and did not write an article about what advantages the United States gained from the war. The USSR, despite the terrible devastation, also received them - in the form of technology, the restructuring of the social structure of Europe, etc. He suffered at the same time, however, disproportionately.

                  And who are you to officially declare something? And even more so, try to insult. Russian Foreign Ministry? Kremlin? Ministry of Defense? Go wash your mouth with soap, you are our hot. And learn to talk without trying to get personal.

                  And also, if you’re trying to prove something, justify your words. Facts, references, documents, monographs of scientists. He spoke about American financiers - tell me what kind of financiers they are.
                  1. +4
                    7 July 2013 14: 43
                    Pimply

                    Read for a start the book by Edward Stennius - The Mysteries of Lend-Lease - Formula of Victory http://lib.rus.ec/b/184874/read I hope you will not suspect that the head of the Office for Compliance with the Lend-Lease Law.
                    Harry Hopkins -
                    We Americans, however, are pragmatic people, and someone may ask: “12,9 billion is a very big price. Are such expenses justified? ”
                    I think that we return even twice as much. Lend-lease did not bring damage to our economy, but this help brought huge dividends. 

                    Comrade Simson (of the Ministry of Defense) to Senator George in February 1941, when the Lend-Lease Act was being discussed, “if you take into account that it took only 18 months to 2 years to develop the production of new aircraft engines, and from 16 to 18 months for ”of the development of production of new aircraft, it is easy to understand that without the initial impetus that we received thanks to these foreign orders, we would now be in a very difficult position in the face of the vital need to solve all these production problems.” 
                    “Lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union on the profitability and high profitability of the Soviet Union were repeatedly indicated by the statesmen and politicians of the USA and England during the Great Patriotic War. During the Anglo-American conference in Casablanca in January 1943, Roosevelt noted: "Deliveries to Russia are a profitable investment." Churchill spoke of the need to increase Russia's military assistance, for “no other form of capital investment can provide the best military dividends”

                    This is for starters.
                    Further, I have to apologize - you are too lousy to you ... you can’t do this, I understand ... but you are lousy to the cause.
                    1. -3
                      7 July 2013 16: 25
                      So you apologize - or continue to be rude? Decide somehow. On the one hand - you admit that you are naughty. On the other, be proud of it.

                      Secondly - explain what exactly are you trying to prove to me?
                      1. +3
                        7 July 2013 16: 35
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Secondly - explain what exactly are you trying to prove to me?


                        the fact that lendlize was a profitable investment of money, and not at all disinterested help to an ally.
                      2. 0
                        8 July 2013 19: 52
                        Between us girls speaking, the American comrades on the same approximately conditions helped their English friends.
                      3. +2
                        7 July 2013 21: 59
                        Pimply
                        I admit. that I named ... I admit that it was for you in this comment that I was rude disproportionately ... I admit that you can’t behave like that, it's bad ... although I really want to ... :)))
                        I also argue that my behavior was caused by reasonable indignation ... in my opinion, I expressed myself quite clearly ... Reader answered your second question below ... I don’t intend to develop this topic of apology ... and generally apologized because I became ashamed of myself ... in front of me.
                      4. 0
                        7 July 2013 22: 29
                        For people who know how to behave, have knowledge and do not try to be rude in the first sentence, I personally never have complaints, even if we do not coincide in their views.
                        Watch your speech and you will be happy, and the forum will have a discussion, not a bazaar. The discussion is much more interesting than the exchange of slogans, agree 8). Have a nice day.
                  2. 0
                    7 July 2013 18: 48
                    And who actually "officially" says something here? And by the way, I would like to see your arguments in favor of your version of history
                2. 0
                  8 July 2013 19: 48
                  It’s natural that the manufacturer makes a profit by selling military equipment! However, at that difficult time, Lend-Lease deliveries were extremely necessary, we got what we didn’t have at all (radio and sonars, for example).
                  For example, in the mid-80s at the Pacific Fleet there was a PM received from the Americans, served for 40 years.
              3. +3
                7 July 2013 18: 42
                "The volume of American supplies under Lend-Lease amounted to about 11 billion US dollars. At the negotiations in 1948, the Soviet representatives agreed to pay only a small amount and met the predicted refusal of the American side."

                For gold, only for it, with default payment. Why is it that suddenly in 1944 the states brazenly declared that their dollar is the very embodiment of gold, for the simple reason that mattresses have 75% of it (gold) 75% of the world's reserves. The Bretton Woods Agreement is the so-called. Only Stalin did not sign, by the way
                1. shpuntik
                  +1
                  7 July 2013 20: 48
                  T-73 Today, 18:42 ↑
                  The Bretton Woods Agreement is the so-called.

                  With a little gold coin, it’s not so simple :-) Metal represents the Sun. Well, the sun worshipers did not go extinct: June 22 is the day of the summer solstice.
                  http://shkolazhizni.ru/archive/0/n-17926/

                  Here is an interesting video:
              4. shpuntik
                +1
                7 July 2013 19: 23
                Pimpled (1) Yesterday, 21:01 p.m. ↑
                Much less if you are not in the know. And without interest.
                ... So what percentages are we talking about?

                So you quote this:
                Under this agreement, the USSR pledged to pay $ 2001 million, including interest, until 722.

                Of course, I do not own a debit and a Lend-Lease loan. I also can not say about the cost of Studebaker and its price in the supply contract.
                The United States violated the agreement in time and quantity, delivered as they wanted.
                http://www.specnaz.ru/istoriya/474/
                In principle, following your logic, the peoples of the USSR should say thanks to the United States not only for Lend-Lease, but also for not attacking the USSR from the rear, the Far East.
                Truman's words are known: "If we see that Germany is winning, then we should help Russia, and if Russia is winning, then we should help Germany, and thus let them kill as many as possible, although I would not want to see Hitler as the winner. under what circumstances. None of them keep their word. "
                http://egorka-datskij.livejournal.com/907.html


                The US gold reserve is known before and after World War II.


              5. +2
                7 July 2013 20: 45
                Pimpy again Lend-Lease does not give you peace as soon as in some post it comes to who actually broke the ridge of the Nazis, you start singing about Lend-Lease, who owes much money to anyone, however you count other people's money))))
                1. 0
                  7 July 2013 21: 15
                  I am haunted by fools who consider the Second World War as a whole, and the Great Patriotic War in particular, some kind of painted lubok, and not the greatest tension of strength and will, a feat of tens of millions of people. The fools are yelling - but we would all be one left! For approximately this reason, the USSR lost a third of its territories in the first year of the war, and then, through the greatest efforts, returned them. Because someone believed that you can fight with screaming and hats.
          4. +1
            6 July 2013 23: 28
            Quote: professor
            More than half a million dead American soldiers - this is at least the same number of saved Soviet soldiers.

            And how many Soviet soldiers died?
            1. 0
              7 July 2013 08: 19
              Quote: anip
              And how many Soviet soldiers died?

              Incomparably more, but also half a million surviving Soviet soldiers thanks to the American allies is a huge figure.
          5. +3
            7 July 2013 04: 18
            Professor (1)
            But what about Hayem ... with his "Trade with the Enemy"? ... And, unfortunately, according to the memoirs of the Germans, most of which, unfortunately, were published under the control of the Americans ... nevertheless, in one voice, clearly, or implicitly say that only the Romanians are worse than American soldiers ... the Britons have a much better opinion ... not to mention us, bad ones, however, they, forgetting that by 42 we were equal in number to the Germans (if not counting the 100 million Europeans, which supported them with their own armed forces ... and only 400), even in comparison with the body of the new Germany ... everyone strives to increase our number at times ... but this is a forgivable sin, they are so no one has yet bludgeoned .... but your statement .... why?
            1. -4
              7 July 2013 11: 42
              Oh, how do you not like Americans to blame against the facts.
              1. +3
                7 July 2013 15: 06
                Pimply
                Hmm, why should I love them? Do you love Arabs? The Americans are our enemies and it would be strange if we "loved" them ...
                1. -1
                  7 July 2013 16: 34
                  For starters - which Arabs exactly. They are different. I served with some, worked with some. If we talk about the Arab armies, then I would not underestimate them, and I would not minimize their merits. By the way, the same applies to the Arabs in the IDF.
                  The Americans at that time were allies, then enemies. Now it is extremely difficult to consider them enemies, given the fact that China is the most likely opponent. Not best friends, but quite adequate partners, which in political goals are beneficial to put as the main evil. AND?

                  Now tell me, how is it that if they, in your opinion, are enemies, affect their fighting qualities? Minus 5 to Strength, minus 10 to Agility?
                2. 0
                  26 January 2018 01: 19
                  it was the Americans who liberated my grandfather and the concentration camp. So this is your "we" replace with "I", please
        2. 0
          6 July 2013 09: 41
          Second front? To be absolutely precise, from May 10, 1940, the British began to really fight, and from December 7, 1941, the Americans.
          1. +7
            6 July 2013 10: 45
            Only here is a strange thing, the British were sitting on their island and did not want to fight on the mainland. We did the same. The only "THANKS" to them for the lend-lease deliveries (for which, it seems, we still have not paid). And, after all, Stalin asked them to open a second front for a reason.
            1. -8
              6 July 2013 10: 51
              Quote: kirpich
              The only "THANKS" to them for the lend-lease deliveries

              And for air supremacy on the Eastern Front? For the almost complete destruction of German industry? For the permanent deficit of fuel and lubricants among the Germans?
              1. -7
                6 July 2013 10: 55
                Quote: Spade
                And for air supremacy on the Eastern Front? For the almost complete destruction of German industry? For the permanent deficit of fuel and lubricants among the Germans?

                For the distraction of the Japanese themselves and silence in the Soviet Far East?
                1. +10
                  6 July 2013 10: 57
                  Then the Japanese themselves burst. However, they had no other choice. Roosevelt was still brilliant, it was he who led Japan to attack his country.
                  1. 0
                    6 July 2013 15: 08
                    It’s hard to disagree.
                2. +4
                  7 July 2013 18: 28
                  "Professor" and "Lopatov". Antagonism is evident, but what a unity of opinion! Freedom of maneuver. I think that the address of the computer is one. IMHO
                  1. 0
                    7 July 2013 21: 02
                    Quote: T-73
                    There is antagonism, but what a unity of opinion! Freedom to maneuver. I think that the address of the computer is one. IMHO

                    Are you here recently?
              2. +3
                6 July 2013 11: 06
                Please recall in what year did this happen?
                Please recall when our bombers bombed the Romanian oil fields.
                1. -4
                  6 July 2013 12: 19
                  Remind me? Yes, please, May 15, 1940
                  1. +9
                    6 July 2013 12: 29
                    Quote: Spade
                    Quote: kirpich
                    The only "THANKS" to them for the lend-lease deliveries

                    And for air supremacy on the Eastern Front? For the almost complete destruction of German industry? For the permanent deficit of fuel and lubricants among the Germans?


                    I do not understand. This is all done by the Anglo-Americans in the years 1940-1941 ???
                    1. -5
                      6 July 2013 12: 37
                      Started to do. The USSR also turned out to be in Berlin on June 22. May 15, 1940 began the strategic bombing of Germany.
                      1. +2
                        6 July 2013 23: 37
                        Well, the USSR aviation in 1941 bombed Berlin. And what, industry destroyed?
                        And how did the Anglo-Americans begin to do this in 1940-41, so that the growth of German military production only increased almost until 1945?
              3. +5
                6 July 2013 19: 00
                Lopatov- and synthetic gasoline? on which German tanks rode, their own planes flew, was apparently randomly presented by the main democrats of the world !!!! wink
                1. -1
                  6 July 2013 19: 44
                  And then they themselves bombed. As far as I remember, in one of the raids almost every third plane was lost.
                  1. shpuntik
                    0
                    8 July 2013 11: 05
                    Lopatov (1) July 6, 2013 19:44 ↑
                    And then they themselves bombed. As far as I remember, in one of the raids almost every third plane was lost.

                    I apologize for interfering, but there are no less paradoxes. German Tiger tank: * Maybach HL210P45 and HL230P45 engines each had four Solex carburetors 52 FF J and D, and the HL230P30 had one Bosch PZ 12 carburetor.
                    * Optics "Karl Zeiss".
                    * Cannon "Krupp", etc.
                    Only, for some reason, ordinary Germans pay for the Holocaust and are guilty, and family-owned firms flourish more than ever. Anyone explain?
                2. -3
                  6 July 2013 20: 31
                  See the agreement between the USSR and Germany.
              4. +1
                6 July 2013 23: 33
                Quote: Spade
                And for air supremacy on the Eastern Front? For the almost complete destruction of German industry? For the permanent deficit of fuel and lubricants among the Germans?

                And where does the domination on the Eastern Front and the allies with their Lend-Lease?

                Quote: Spade
                For the almost complete destruction of German industry?

                And look at the statistics of arms production in the Third Reich for a start. I think you will be greatly surprised that the largest arms production was achieved in Germany in 1944. So when was German industry destroyed, and even then far from completely? Was it not then, when everything was already clear?
              5. 3 inches.
                +1
                7 July 2013 16: 09
                air supremacy? Well, it’s hard to say that this is the work of the Anglo-Saxons. They didn’t achieve the destruction of industry, by the end of 44 the peak of arms production in Germany. And the gasoline ended because Romania and Hungary didn’t. Remind why it stopped flowing from there?
            2. -19
              6 July 2013 11: 42
              Does war with the Japanese mean anything to you? Do not fight the Americans with the Japanese, what do you think the USSR would have in the Far East?
              1. +10
                6 July 2013 12: 34
                It would be complete silence. The Japanese did not want to fight with us. They needed China and MANCHURIA. At that time, they did not sway at Mngolii.
              2. Fin
                +17
                6 July 2013 12: 38
                Quote: Pimply
                Does war with the Japanese mean anything to you? Do not fight the Americans with the Japanese, what do you think the USSR would have in the Far East?

                And there wouldn’t be anything, and they would be afraid of each other.
                And the Japanese would take the hands of the Asia-Pacific region, where interests would not intersect.
                But the USA needed a war and they received it at the numerous request of the capitalists.
                1. +8
                  6 July 2013 13: 32
                  № 372
                  From the message of the Tokyo residency of the NKGB of the USSR about Japan's plans for the USSR
                  5 July 1941 g
                  ... The position recently determined by the Japanese government is as follows:
                  1. Preparations for operations in the south will soon be completed, after which an offensive will immediately begin in this direction according to the following plan: sending troops to the southern part of Indochina, providing military assistance to Thailand - We are talking about Thailand - (in response to increased military pressure from England on Tai) and further attack on Singapore;
                  use of everything to avoid war with the USA. If this fails, then achieve his goal, even fighting with the United States.
                  2. The policy towards the Soviet Union is determined for the time being as follows:
                  a treaty of neutrality has recently been concluded, the rupture of which will provoke indignation of the population;
                  preparations for the campaign to the north are not finished ...
                  Consequently, Japan must take a position of neutrality. Having successfully completed the construction of a new order in Asia (by the method specified in paragraph one), Japan will nevertheless enter the war with the democracies and with the USSR on the side of Germany, so military preparations for the movement to the north should be accelerated so that at any time was to begin operations against the USSR ... CA FSB of Russia ---------------------------------- In accordance with the plan " "Kantokuen", developed by the imperial headquarters and headquarters of the Kwantung Army, in July 1941, a secret mobilization of 500 thousand people was carried out, of which 300 thousand were sent to Man Juria to replenish the troops of the Kwantung Army. As part of the Kwantung Army, 3 frontal directorates were formed, 5 field armies and the Kwantung Defensive Army (totaling up to 700 thousand people) were deployed. The Kwantung Army also subordinated units and formations of the armies of Manzhou-Guo and Inner Mongolia. According to the Kantokuen plan, the offensive was planned to be launched by forces of the Eastern and Northern Fronts from the Borderline to Voroshilov and from the Heihe (Sakhalyan) to Blagoveshchensk and Kuibyshevka-Vostochnaya, with the goal of capturing Voroshilov, Vladivostok, Blagoveshchensk, Iman at the first stage , Kuibyshevka-East; on the 1nd - Khabarovsk, Birobidzhan, Birokan and the Rukhlovo district, and then, with the favorable development of events, occupy Northern Sakhalin, Nikolaevsk-on-Amur, Komsomolsk, Sovetskaya Gavan, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky. The plan provided for the interaction of ground forces with the Navy for landing in Kamchatka and Northern Sakhalin and the naval blockade of Vladivostok. The Western Front, in case of success of the Eastern and Northern Fronts, had the task, stepping on Chita, to capture the entire territory to Lake Baikal. The opening of hostilities was originally scheduled for August 2, 19. The presence of a large group of Japanese troops in Manchuria and the threat of Japan implementing the Kantokuen plan forced the USSR to keep significant forces in the Far East. http://www.bse.info-spravka.ru/bse/id_1941
              3. +16
                6 July 2013 13: 39
                Quote: Pimply
                Do not fight the Americans with the Japanese, what do you think the USSR would have in the Far East?

                Zhenya hi Before the defeat of the Nazis in the Far East of the USSR, he held a million-strong army near Stalingrad. The Japanese invasion of the USSR was planned after the fall of Stalingrad. So Stalin had everything seized, including the likelihood of an attack by Japan.
                1. -9
                  6 July 2013 14: 25
                  Hello Vit. I know perfectly well about an army of a million people. Now imagine that it’s not worthwhile, into a warring army, suffering losses, requiring weapons, ammunition, increased food standards, and medicines. Presented?
              4. Avenger711
                +6
                6 July 2013 20: 05
                There already stood an army of 1.5 million people. The problem is that the capture of the Far East did not give the Japanese anything; there is no necessary infrastructure with which to have something to fuck.
                1. -3
                  6 July 2013 20: 32
                  The army is standing, and the army is at war - these are somewhat different armies, do not you think?
              5. The comment was deleted.
                1. -4
                  6 July 2013 20: 33
                  Excuse me, but can I be more detailed - what "your governments" are you talking about? 8)
                  1. rolik
                    +9
                    6 July 2013 21: 20
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Excuse me, but can I be more detailed - what "your governments" are you talking about? 8)

                    And on behalf of whom you are trying to repeat the theme of all the latest Hollywood films, which says that America won the Second World War))))) And everyone else, especially the Soviet Union, was in the role of a projectile carrier.
              6. +1
                6 July 2013 21: 25
                Quote: Pimply
                Do not fight the Americans with the Japanese, what do you think the USSR would have in the Far East?

                If the Japanese wanted, they would attack the Far East. But they did not do it. They attacked the Americans, because they did not want to attack the USSR. Therefore, your statement is not true. It will be more correct to say that the Americans had to fight with the Japanese, since they did not attack the USSR, but decided to fight with the United States.
              7. +2
                7 July 2013 05: 27
                Quote: Pimply
                Does war with the Japanese mean anything to you? Do not fight the Americans with the Japanese, what do you think the USSR would have in the Far East?


                This is not a correct question, because it was not the Americans who started the war with Japan, but Japan attacked the United States. Those. Japan made its own choice. And to continue speculation about "what would be" is simply stupid.
                1. +4
                  7 July 2013 10: 33
                  Quote: Kail_Seven
                  Incorrect question,

                  I agree.
                  If my grandmother had yay ... ah, she would be a grandfather.
                  HISTORY DOESN'T HAVE A SUBJECTIVE TILT.
                  Therefore, do not tilt the story and try to play solitaire on it.
                  1. -1
                    7 July 2013 11: 43
                    Exactly
                2. 3 inches.
                  +2
                  7 July 2013 16: 14
                  yes no. actually America forced Japan to fight. by the way, that's why the Japanese attacked them. It was systematic pressure from the age of 30. The yappa’s measures put in such conditions that war would be inevitable
            3. +3
              6 July 2013 18: 51
              Quote: kirpich
              Only now, strangeness, the British were sitting on their island and did not want to fight on the mainland. We did the same


              To be honest, we didn’t sit - the Greek campaign, the African campaign, the Italian front, but until the end of the Strange War, their actions were far from the most active.

              Quote: Spade
              And for air supremacy on the Eastern Front?


              Excuse me, but what does air supremacy in the East and the help of the Allies have to do with it? In material terms, yes, they helped us, but the forces of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front were far from weak and small. And even during the existence of the Western Front, the number of aircraft sent from East to West is extremely small.
              1. +1
                6 July 2013 19: 12
                Quote: Blackgrifon
                And even during the existence of the Western Front, the number of aircraft sent from East to West is extremely small.

                Of course not enough. There was already nothing to remove from the front - the main efforts of German aviation were aimed at repelling the raids of the Americans and the British. The main body of anti-aircraft artillery was located there, and the 88-mm gun, as you know, was very effective against tanks.
                The same can be said about the aviation industry - the Germans did not have enough funds to replace the Yu-87 with a full-fledged attack aircraft, and therefore they supplied the troops with the Fv-190 instead. For the simple reason that the main efforts were again aimed at creating air defense aviation.
                1. 0
                  6 July 2013 23: 48
                  Quote: Spade
                  there was not enough money to replace the Yu-87 with a full-fledged attack aircraft,


                  But what about Ms. 129? Yes, and the Yu-87 was not an attack aircraft, but a diving bomber, and later it began to be replaced in units by Bf.110 and already closer to the end of the war on the Fv-190. And then if they were bombed so hard, how did they manage to put into operation a lot of jet aircraft?
                  1. +2
                    7 July 2013 21: 43
                    Quote: Blackgrifon
                    But what about Ms. 129?


                    MS129 Morane-Saulnier antediluvian pterodactyl. Did you probably mean the Hs-129 flying locomotive? But here's the catch, that at the locomotive plant, not a single horseradish train will work. Compared with it, the Ju-87 is a highly maneuverable 4 ++ fighter
                2. 3 inches.
                  0
                  7 July 2013 16: 21
                  Yes, it’s not very effective. If you deploy it in advance and hide the howitzer here, it’s good. But the main thing for artillery is stealth and mobility. Think about how the flak fits these criteria.
              2. berimor
                +4
                7 July 2013 16: 49
                I would like to remind you of the fact of "help" when the tanks were removed from the African corps and without having time to repaint they were thrown at Stalingrad (this is where their soil was most important for the Germans). asked Stalin to launch an offensive as soon as possible in order to draw off the forces of the Wehrmacht. And if you take a closer look at the objects of the bombing, you will notice with "surprise" that almost all of these objects were in the zone that the Red Army was supposed to occupy. This is HELP, I understand !!!
                1. -5
                  7 July 2013 18: 20
                  For a start - links
                  1. +3
                    7 July 2013 18: 24
                    Quote: Pimply
                    For a start - links

                    Already not even funny.
          2. 0
            8 July 2013 11: 27
            May 10 - is that the legendary drape of the brave Tommy to Dunkirk? Really worthy of praise.
        3. +5
          6 July 2013 09: 50
          the second front when it was really open something miracle you are in feathers! That's when they saw that the fascists were a real kopek and they would have to share the cake, then they already started to fuss !!!!

          and where does the second front, gunpowder, metals, cars and steam locomotives, and most importantly, machine tools and equipment, the same new carousel that allowed us to make the same 34-85 cheaper and faster.
          therefore, it is necessary to soberly assess the role of the allies and their help, and not tear on themselves underwear

          you can look here
          http://topwar.ru/22247-tankovyy-lend-liz-velikobritaniya.html
        4. -17
          6 July 2013 11: 41
          Not ham, child, people who are smarter and older than you. If you are not in the know, the second front was opened much earlier than 1944. Military operations in Africa and the Pacific Ocean, the capture of Sicily in 1943. The landing in 1944 was due to the most serious preparations for the assault on the deeply echeloned defense of the Germans in Europe.
          1. +22
            6 July 2013 13: 36
            Quote: Pimply
            the second front was opened much earlier than 1944. Military operations in Africa and the Pacific Ocean, the capture of Sicily in 1943. The landing in 1944 was due to the most serious preparations for the assault on the deeply echeloned defense of the Germans in Europe.
            That's about the fact that you are smarter, very doubtful! They opened a second front in Africa!)) Hhahaha! Though in Australia !!! What are they there in Africa, their colonies won back? The USSR is not warm from this, it’s not cold, but in the year 44 they stormed into Europe, already sharing it, by the way the Germans nearly threw them into the ocean, heroes of these allied, and then our "assistants" had to help by strengthening the offensive. They opened fronts on Mars against Germany ... They went nuts. laughing
            1. -13
              6 July 2013 14: 36
              To begin with - they didn’t speak with you, right?
              Secondly, under smarter it was a question of rudeness in relation to the professor, and the person who gets out there is obviously dumber than him, especially taking into account the manner of his communication.
              Thirdly, the war is called World War II. And the German troops fighting in Africa are the troops that did not fight on the Eastern Front, and Africa liberated from the Nazis is that Africa that could no longer supply Nazi Germany's resources - oil, metal, etc.
              Thirdly, the war was fought not only in Africa, but also in the Pacific Ocean, in Sicily, and the Allies bombed Berlin in 40-41, moreover, by an order of magnitude more intensively than Soviet aircraft.
              You are illiterate and rude. Go back to school and hand over the story for something better than a troika.
              1. Constantine
                +3
                6 July 2013 16: 34
                Quote: Pimply
                To begin with - they didn’t speak with you, right?
                Secondly, under smarter it was a question of rudeness in relation to the professor, and the person who gets out there is obviously dumber than him, especially taking into account the manner of his communication.
                Thirdly, the war is called World War II. And the German troops fighting in Africa are the troops that did not fight on the Eastern Front, and Africa liberated from the Nazis is that Africa that could no longer supply Nazi Germany's resources - oil, metal, etc.
                Thirdly, the war was fought not only in Africa, but also in the Pacific Ocean, in Sicily, and the Allies bombed Berlin in 40-41, moreover, by an order of magnitude more intensively than Soviet aircraft.
                You are illiterate and rude. Go back to school and hand over the story for something better than a troika.


                Once again
                Quote: Pimply
                References, proofs, certificates
              2. +9
                6 July 2013 16: 58
                Quote: Pimply
                And the German troops fighting in Africa are the troops that did not fight on the Eastern Front

                Without any intention to belittle the importance of Lend-Lease for the Soviet Union, but with the sole purpose of having a clear understanding of the issue.
                What was the Nazi group in Africa?
                Rommel's Afrika Korps in the original composition of a light division and a tank regiment and attached battalions. Later, it "expanded" to two tank divisions.
                Further, at the end of 1942. at the close (from December 1942 to May 1943) the SS Hermann Goering division and the 10th Panzer Division fought there.
                That's all.
                The main backbone was the Italian allies (more than 500 thousand people). if you can call them skeleton at all.
                They showed themselves not from the best side.

                By the way, the presence of the last two German divisions in the African theater did not prevent them from fighting earlier in the east.
                1. -7
                  6 July 2013 17: 10
                  Rommel commanded the Afrika Korps for six months. Until August 1941. Since September, he has commanded Army Africa.

                  1st Italian Army
                  African Corps (German)
                  20th Motorized Corps (Italian)
                  21st Army Corps (Italian)
                  5-I tank army
                  10-I Panzer Division
                  German Goering Division
                  334 I Infantry Division

                  The intensity of the fighting, of course, could not be compared with what was on the Eastern Front. Nevertheless, Africa was also quite an important point due to both resources and geopolitical features.
                  1. +6
                    6 July 2013 17: 25
                    Quote: Pimply
                    1st Italian Army
                    African Corps (German)
                    20th Motorized Corps (Italian)
                    21st Army Corps (Italian)
                    5-I tank army
                    10-I Panzer Division
                    German Goering Division
                    334 I Infantry Division

                    All other parts of the "Africa" ​​army, except for those indicated by me above, were Italian. Or am I wrong?
                    Both the Hermann Goering and the 10th Panzer managed to absorb the African dust in a matter of months (from December 1942 to the surrender in May 1943).
                    To summarize. What was general the number of German regular units "abstracted from the Eastern Front"?
                    1. -9
                      6 July 2013 17: 26
                      It was a combined unit.
                    2. +1
                      6 July 2013 18: 25
                      Why bother? That is not pretending to be academic.
                      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Североафриканская_кампания
                      And then the resources for the war in Africa, the resources for the war at sea, the resources for creating and maintaining fortifications on the Atlantic coast. Parts in Western Europe. Air Defense Forces in Germany. And this is only before landing in Italy. And when it began and the Italian army fell, the Germans, in the midst of the Battle of Kursk, had to transfer the tank corps from the Eastern Front. It should be remembered that having a common goal to destroy Nazi Germany, all allies had their own goals in the war. Or does someone consider the politicians of the great powers altruists?
                      1. +4
                        6 July 2013 18: 43
                        Quote: Aron Zaavi
                        It should be remembered that having a common goal to destroy Nazi Germany, all allies had their own goals in the war. Or does someone consider the politicians of the great powers altruists?

                        I do not argue with you. But the question of "diverting German troops from the eastern direction for operations on the African continent" is very controversial.
                      2. +2
                        6 July 2013 21: 39
                        They would have diverted resources much more efficiently from the eastern front if they landed not on the northern coast of Africa, but on the coast of Belgium. And so ... And so they decided their interests)))
                  2. Constantine
                    +1
                    6 July 2013 17: 26
                    Rommel commanded the Afrika Korps for six months. Until August 1941. Since September, he has commanded Army Africa.

                    1st Italian Army
                    African Corps (German)
                    20th Motorized Corps (Italian)
                    21st Army Corps (Italian)
                    5-I tank army
                    10-I Panzer Division
                    German Goering Division
                    334 I Infantry Division

                    The intensity of the fighting, of course, could not be compared with what was on the Eastern Front. Nevertheless, Africa was also quite an important point due to both resources and geopolitical features.


                    References, proofs, certificates
                    1. -5
                      6 July 2013 17: 33
                      Respected. Is it really so inept troll, you think that you will achieve something? I’m not afraid of links, proofs, evidence, I have them.
                      For example
                      http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/KorpsSonstige/AfrikaKorps.htm

                      And you? Doubtful That’s why you can only repeat my phrase.
                      1. Constantine
                        +4
                        6 July 2013 19: 07
                        And I really put forward some positions other than those where I asked you to substantiate your words with proofs. It is interesting to read where you get such indisputable knowledge from. I did not come here to measure yourself with "instruments", but normally asked you to substantiate your opinion as you ask from others and with the same frequency with which you ask.
                      2. -1
                        6 July 2013 20: 36
                        You did not ask, the format of your communication was somewhat different. You decided to show off and put me in my place. That is, they are "measured by devices".
                  3. 0
                    8 July 2013 20: 23
                    About 100000 Germans were captured by the Allies, quite normal.
              3. +7
                6 July 2013 17: 18
                The battleworthiness of the Italian troops is eloquently shown, for example, by the fact that only as a result of the offensive in December 1940 - January 1941, the British troops advanced more than 800 km in two months. Carrying a trace. Losses: 475 people killed, 1225 wounded and 43 missing. The Italian army lost more than 130 thousand soldiers and officers only prisoners, about 400 tanks, 1290 guns.
                By the way, the Australians (6th, 7th and 9th divisions) also fought with the Italian fascist troops. The Italians also resisted the local Sudanese and Ethiopian units and partisans.

                In addition, a fairly decent part of the British colonial forces was the local population recruited in African colonies.
                So, for example, out of 77 thousand people of the total composition of the British troops in Kenya in the autumn of 1940, 42 thousand were Africans.

                But, in my opinion, this does not give any reason to talk about Soviet assistance in the fight against the fascists of half of Europe. Africa is a completely separate issue.
                The British primarily defended and strengthened their colonial interests in the region. And they could not inflict any more or less painful blow to fascism as a whole, acting within the African continent, and did not set themselves such a task.
                1. -8
                  6 July 2013 17: 29
                  World war for that and world war - everything was interconnected there. The containment of Africa gave the Germans the opportunity to break through to the oil reserves of Iran and Iraq, to ​​Suez, the base for a potential exit to New Zealand and Australia.
                  1. +7
                    6 July 2013 18: 40
                    Quote: Pimply
                    World war for that and world war - everything was interconnected there. The containment of Africa gave the Germans the opportunity to break through to the oil reserves of Iran and Iraq, to ​​Suez, the base for a potential exit to New Zealand and Australia.

                    And for such a task did they allot two divisions?
                    In this case, I strongly doubt that she saw the fascist leadership so important.
                    Let's see where Germany got its resources from:

                    - Sweden
                    In 1939, fascist Germany delivered 10,6 million tons of Swedish ore. From 1940 to 1944, the Swedes sold more than 45 million tons of iron ore to the fascists.

                    - Portugal
                    Tungsten (Portugal was the largest producer of this metal in Europe), food. In total, Portugal received 44 tons of gold bullion in payment of supplies.

                    - Spain
                    Tungsten, fluorspar, iron ore, zinc sulphide, pyrites, oranges, fish, wine, etc.
                    In 1941 delivered to 167 million Reichsmarks
                    Further on increasing.

                    - Turkey
                    From October 1938 to December 1940 (in fact two years) 104156 tons of chrome ore were delivered to Germany. Germany covered about 30% of its needs for ferroalloys due to Turkish chrome ore.
                    Re-export of cereals received from the USA and England during the war.
                    Tobacco, cotton (1942 - 1318 tons, 1943 - 1580 tons, 1944 - 3325 tons), copper, raisins, figs, fish, etc.

                    - USA
                    A separate song. Reading "Trading with the enemy" Charles Higham ("Trading with the enemy" Charles Higham)

                    Germany covered more than a third of the need for fuel and almost all the need for lubricants in the first years of World War II due to Austrian and Romanian oil.
                    1. -3
                      6 July 2013 20: 39
                      And I repeat once again - the African theater of operations was not decisive, but this does not mean that it was not significant. And for some reason, you focus only on it.
                      1. +6
                        6 July 2013 21: 31
                        Quote: Pimply
                        And I repeat once again - the African theater of operations was not decisive, but this does not mean that it was not significant.

                        No, of course, the African Theater ... as if to put it mildly ... was not so insignificant. It was insignificant.
                      2. Cat
                        -2
                        6 July 2013 22: 02
                        Quote: revnagan
                        No, of course, the African Theater ... as if to put it mildly ... was not so insignificant. It was insignificant.

                        I have already spoken here to one clever man, and I will also repeat to you: only "alternatively gifted" individuals can talk about the significance of the actions of the USSR's allies. Culturally speaking.
                        After all, a German who died in Africa could easily end up in Ukraine - and kill or burn one of your grandparents in a barn. But - he did not kill and did not burn, since he himself was killed, albeit without the participation of the Red Army. And thanks to this - you have the opportunity to sit here on the forum and build a mega-strategy.
                        What if the "extra" German on the Eastern Front was not the only one - but a company, battalion, regiment? How many people could they kill - your relatives, mine, or Pimple over there? Or do you want to say that their lives are worthless and are not needed by anyone?

                        In general, my advice to you - shut up, please.
                      3. +5
                        6 July 2013 23: 15
                        Quote: Cat
                        I’ve already said here to one wise guy, I’ll also repeat to you: they can only discuss the significance of the actions of the USSR allies "alternatively gifted" individuals. Culturally speaking.



                        and indeed, despite the fact that Germany spent from 65 to 70% of its industrial potential on the war in the east.
                        and ditched from us 75-80% of its infantry.
                        then talk about some SUPER SERIOUS contribution of the Allies to the victory over Germany,
                        can only "alternatively gifted" individuals. Culturally speaking.

                        in this situation, it’s not us, they, but they, we should bow to the legs.
                        but from "alternatively gifted" only heard YES WE NEED THEM, WE ARE OBLIGED TO THEM, YES NEVER PAYBACK. etc.

                        if YOU owe them something, then you can start paying on Monday.
                      4. Cat
                        -2
                        6 July 2013 23: 32
                        Quote: Rider
                        then talk about some SUPER SERIOUS contribution of the Allies to the victory over Germany,

                        life of a single person, from your point of view, how is it - serious? Or super serious?
                        And if this person is your mother, then how?
                        It first.
                        And secondly - with what fright did you suddenly decide that I consider the contribution of the Allies to the victory - super serious? Where did I say that? Unless in yours, alternatively giftedfantasies (culturally expressed).
                      5. +3
                        6 July 2013 23: 44
                        uv Cat, do you read your posts ATTENTIVELY?
                        or throwing a text without looking.

                        But - he did not kill and did not burn, since he himself was killed, albeit without the participation of the Red Army. And thanks to this - you have the opportunity to sit here on the forum and build a mega-strategy.


                        that is, if there weren’t an African mess, then the USSR would have lost the war, and the fasting here would not have the opportunity to carry stupid things on the forum.

                        I understand you correctly 7

                        Quote: Cat
                        And secondly - with what a fright


                        Yes, from such that I only hear (including from you) that WE SHOULD BE THAT THANKS FOR THEM, WE ARE OBLIGED TO THEM, etc., etc.

                        I just turned the DEBTS in the opposite direction.
                        for some reason no one in the West is in a hurry to sprinkle ashes on the fact that it was the USSR that made the DECISIVE contribution to the victory over the Reich.

                        Well, you can start paying YOUR debt.
                      6. Cat
                        +5
                        7 July 2013 01: 53
                        Quote: Rider
                        that is, if there weren’t an African mess, then the USSR would have lost the war, and the fasting here would not have the opportunity to carry stupid things on the forum.

                        The Union would have won the war anyway.
                        But as for those who drive the blizzard on the forum - it is not so clear. Some might not have been born.
                        Quote: Rider
                        Yes, from such that I only hear (including from you) that WE SHOULD BE THAT THANKS FOR THEM, WE ARE OBLIGED TO THEM, etc., etc.

                        What do you mean - are you obliged? What do you owe?
                        And about gratitude ... Are you personally grateful to Soviet soldiers? And what is this expressed in? Do you carry flowers once a year to the monument, or just glue a ribbon on an ava in a social network? Yes, even so ... And if on May 9 you find yourself denim in Africa, next to the monument to English or American soldiers - will you put flowers there? Or you’ll spit - they say you are here, and you would have managed without it. So it turns out?

                        My grandfather, he served at the Pacific Fleet, an artilleryman. He first saw a Japanese soldier only when the ships arrived in Port Arthur, before that - well, they fired mainly on the shore, and a couple of times at the ships. How many Japanese died from the shells of his guns - no one knows.
                        But Japan, in the 45th, did not present any danger to the USSR, and was not going to attack. And in comparison with the Amer’s fleet, the Pacific Fleet wasn’t a fleet either, but a flotilla ... So, grandfather and his colleagues were fighting in vain? Several people from their crew left for the Marine Corps, one died during the landing on Sakhalin - in vain, right?
                        Of them, from the whole crew, today there are 5 people left. Three of them will meet in September - two more, unfortunately, travel is contraindicated. I will give the address where they will gather - come, and say - that they fought in vain. Tell them in the eye. Or are you afraid? And rightly scared. They, they won’t do anything to you, 90-year-old grandfathers, they walk with difficulty. And here I am - I personally will tear your head off and say that it was so. And conscience will not torment. And even if they put me in prison for this, it’s not because I'm wrong, but because the laws are moronic.

                        In short.

                        Remember once and for all:
                        There are decisive or decisive battles. There are main directions of impact, and secondary. There are distracting blows - the participants of which are obviously doomed to death. A lot of things happen.
                        But insignificant, insignificant fights - does not happen.
                        Pilots of a bomber shot down by an enemy air defense and falling in a clear field 10 km from the target ... or submariners - whose boat died in landmines before they could fire a single torpedo ... or recruits whose train was hit by bombing - they even they didn’t have time to get to the front ... did they live in vain and died in vain? No. They also gave their lives - for the Victory. And also worthy of gratitude and reverence. No matter what flag they served.

                        Remember this. And teach children.
                      7. 0
                        7 July 2013 02: 51
                        I understand that instead of ARGUMENTS, you decided to spend an evening of historical romance?

                        very clear.

                        Quote: Cat
                        Remember this. And teach children.


                        you do not happen by chance?
                        no ?
                        and don’t take into account?

                        Well then, leave your moralizing to yourself.
                      8. Cat
                        -1
                        7 July 2013 03: 00
                        Quote: Rider
                        I understand that instead of ARGUMENTS, you decided to spend an evening of historical romance?

                        ARGUMENT is an "insignificant and not influencing anything" operation, that is, military operations of the Soviet Army and the Pacific Fleet against Japan. I suggested that you express your opinion, looking into the eyes of the participants in those events.
                        Do you agree to do this?
                      9. 0
                        7 July 2013 11: 02
                        Quote: Cat
                        I suggested that you express your opinion by looking into the eyes of the participants in those events.


                        Well, it means, exactly without arguments.

                        some drool snot and emotion.

                        Well
                        to give the character a spitting face


                        are you doing these on the internet?
                        you are our warlike.
                      10. Cat
                        -2
                        7 July 2013 15: 55
                        Quote: Rider
                        Well, it means, exactly without arguments.

                        if human lives are not an argument for you - then what?
                        Quote: Rider
                        are you doing these on the internet?

                        I suggested the option - without the Internet. You can even not go to Kiev, I think there will be live participants in the fighting in the Far East and Kazakhstan. Or the children of those who died there. Do you agree to discuss with them the nullity of that operation? Or are you worried about your own face?
                      11. +1
                        7 July 2013 16: 05
                        Quote: Cat
                        if human lives are not an argument for you -


                        Yes, we heard this argument.
                        something like a "child's tear" and so on.
                        unfortunately in a war where millions are burned, your words look like profanity.

                        Quote: Cat
                        I suggested the option - without the Internet. You can even not go to Kiev


                        and so, now go and tell the same veterans that the American carcass was more useful than the opening of a second front in the year 42?

                        As you can see, you can come up with questions not only you.
                      12. Cat
                        0
                        7 July 2013 17: 09
                        Quote: Rider
                        unfortunately in a war where millions are burned, your words look like profanity.

                        losses in millions are considered by politicians, or historians, or literate men like you. But the soldiers in the trenches - they consider the losses individually.
                        Whose opinion is more significant, huh?

                        Quote: Rider
                        and so, now go and tell the same veterans that the American carcass was more useful than the opening of a second front in the year 42?

                        asking is not necessary, I already know what they will answer: the second front and the stew were important.
                        Because war is not a supermarket where you can choose. Important in war Any help. Not a single soldier refused to go into battle on foot and not on Sherman, and there is oak bark instead of stew - due to the fact that the Allies did not open a second front.
                      13. +2
                        7 July 2013 17: 31
                        Quote: Cat
                        losses in millions are considered by politicians, or historians, or literate men like you


                        as well as nations whose help (in the most difficult time) was limited to promises.
                        Well, about the piece count.
                        so maybe it’s not necessary to fight?
                        because in the next battle, several of these pieces will forever occupy a horizontal position.

                        the commander sends an anti-tank battery to the tip of a tank breakthrough. almost to death.
                        and to him like you - oh they’ll all die there, and we count them individually.
                        probably the commander will scratch the pumpkin and say.
                        "Yeah, I feel sorry for these soldiers - we retreat to the Urals"

                        Quote: Cat
                        the second front and the stew were important


                        there was a carcass, there was no second fron.

                        when you learn to stop the enemy tanks canned, then we'll talk.
                      14. Cat
                        -1
                        8 July 2013 00: 00
                        Quote: Rider
                        when you learn to stop the enemy tanks canned, then we'll talk.

                        you don’t even have a carcass — you will refuse it, you will eat the birch bark and wait until they open a second front. Or starve to death before enemy tanks reach your position.
                        Quote: Rider

                        the commander sends an anti-tank battery to the tip of a tank breakthrough. almost to death.

                        and the less Germans will sit in denim in Africa - the more batteries will have to be sent to the division commander, to certain death.
                      15. +1
                        8 July 2013 00: 18
                        according to the first remark - apparently the fantasy is over, the muddy foam and snot went.

                        Quote: Cat
                        and the less Germans will sit denim in Africa


                        oops, but come on the opposite.

                        than MORE allies would fight in Africa (and ideally Europe)
                        the LESS would have had to send batteries to certain death.


                        but you, for some reason, prefer the first option.

                        like wipe yourself with what is, and even bow, bow, and give thanks.

                        and after that you blame ME for heartlessness! 7
                      16. Cat
                        -1
                        8 July 2013 00: 38
                        Quote: Rider
                        than MORE allies would fight in Africa (and ideally Europe)
                        the LESS would have had to send batteries to certain death.

                        what does it mean - "would"? How many fought, so many fought. How many of ours survived because of this, so many survived. Let not a million, but only 200000, or 100000, or at least 50000 - and that's good. One small town, or fifty villages. Is this a lot or a little?
                      17. 0
                        8 July 2013 00: 44
                        Quote: Cat
                        Is it a lot or a little?


                        and that’s what it means WOULD
                        for me - the more the better, but for you - and so it will do.
                        women still give birth.

                        and about the towns.

                        for the population of a small town - normal.

                        but for a population of 200 MILLION COUNTRIES, LOSING 27 LEMONS OF THE PEOPLE - NOTHING LITTLE!

                        so who is there "cares" for the value of human life and the tear of a child?
                      18. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 01: 13
                        Quote: Rider

                        but for a population of 200 MILLION COUNTRIES, LOSING 27 LEMONS OF THE PEOPLE - IT'S SMALL!

                        Do you personally agree that these grandfathers and grandmothers, their parents, brothers, sisters, will be among these additional victims? This is not even a town, it will turn out a small village, against the background of huge losses of a huge country - a trifle.
                        Such a simple question.
                        Give him the same simple answer.
                      19. +2
                        8 July 2013 01: 27
                        Quote: Cat
                        do you personally agree


                        Ale woodpecker!
                        if it hasn’t reached you yet (well, you’re a fat-baked man - it happens)
                        then I advocate that OUR HAS BEEN LESS!
                        and if for this it is necessary that there should be MORE THEM, then I AGREE to it.

                        and I want to find out WHY IT DOESN'T POSIT YOU?

                        Quote: Cat
                        Such a simple question.
                        Give him the same simple answer.


                        Both of my grandfathers are already included in this number.
                      20. Cat
                        -2
                        8 July 2013 01: 47
                        Quote: Rider
                        if it hasn’t reached you yet (well, you’re a fat-baked man - it happens)
                        then I advocate that OUR HAS BEEN LESS!
                        and if for this it is necessary that there should be MORE THEM, then I AGREE to it.

                        do you have a time machine? No? How so? What are you then advocating?
                        Quote: Rider
                        Both of my grandfathers are already included in this number.

                        and this, apparently, is more than happy with you - since you agree to easily exchange another dozen or two villages. Or are you just jealous of those whose grandfathers returned from the war alive?
                      21. +1
                        8 July 2013 02: 24
                        Quote: Cat
                        and this, apparently, is more than happy with you - since you agree to easily exchange another dozen or two villages.


                        Are you deliberately fooling around, or are you really reading only what is beneficial to you?

                        I tell you once again.
                        I AM FOR WHAT WE LESS LESS!

                        and I still have not received the answer to the question
                        WHY ARE YOU AGAINST?
                      22. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 03: 42
                        Quote: Rider
                        I tell you once again.
                        I AM FOR WHAT WE LESS LESS!

                        and I still have not received the answer to the question
                        WHY ARE YOU AGAINST?

                        when it comes to you that those people - ALREADY Died. Long. 70 years ago. They died without asking what you want and what I want.
                        Therefore, it is stupid to say - "but, and if, yes, if only" - no one will rise from this.
                        Simply, due to the fact that somewhere in Africa some of them died - some of us were able to return home. A few more lives were saved by the Sherman’s armor, and some more were able to survive the blockade thanks to the American stew.
                        It is a fact.
                        Everything else is lyrics, and the fruit of your imagination.
                      23. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 52
                        Quote: Cat
                        when will it reach you that


                        When it comes to you that their bosses did everything so that the story would turn out just like that and not otherwise.
                        and that they would love to do it again, and again.
                        until. while altruists like you, and Western haters like me, WAS NOT REMAINED AT ALL.

                        I’m just wondering when you see YOUR cities destroyed, you will also assure yourself that THEY HAVE DONE EVERYTHING that they could?
                        and that is as it should be. and we should be grateful to them for THIS?

                        Are you REALLY SO ... uh altruist?
                      24. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 04
                        the Germans, whose grandfathers attacked our country, committed all kinds of atrocities, mocked civilians - and for all this they robbed our grandfathers in full - so these same Germans still look after the graves of Soviet soldiers and carry flowers there. Although for a long time there has been no GDR or SED, and Germany is not an ally for Russia ... these Germans - are they right, or not?
                      25. 0
                        8 July 2013 04: 23
                        Quote: Cat
                        are they doing the right thing or not?


                        As I understand it, this is again a question from the category "where are the keys from paravoz 7"

                        and where to do desecration of graves?
                        and replicated for the "holiday" myths about 2 lemons of worn-out German women
                      26. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 32
                        Quote: Rider
                        As I understand it, this is again a question from the category "where are the keys from paravoz 7"

                        why all of a sudden? But you have the courage and audacity to evaluate the actions of the allies during the war - evaluate, at the same time, the descendants of former enemies. Or do their actions not fit into your value system?
                        Quote: Rider
                        and where to do desecration of graves?
                        and replicated for the "holiday" myths about 2 lemons of worn-out German women

                        about 2 million Germans yell your brothers on the mind, on the other hand. They also desecrate monuments - both in the West and in Russia. Gandons are laid out there, kebabs are fried ... after all, that for them a hundred or two thousand dead - on the scale of a huge country ...
                      27. 0
                        8 July 2013 04: 40
                        Quote: Cat
                        You have enough courage and arrogance to evaluate


                        I have enough intelligence and knowledge to evaluate their meanness, and further aggressive plans.

                        but altruists do not understand this.
                        Quote: Cat
                        your brothers are screaming for reason

                        both on. this is twisted.
                        and DIDN'T YOU SO PAY GENERATIVELY WITH OUR BLOOD FOR SHERMANS AND TUSHNYAK?

                        did you accidentally break away from consciousness, from an abnormal transition to the REAL WORLD?
                      28. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 05: 03
                        Quote: Rider
                        I have enough intelligence and knowledge to evaluate their meanness, and further aggressive plans.

                        care for the graves of Soviet soldiers - what do you attribute to this? To meanness, or to aggressive plans?
                      29. 0
                        8 July 2013 05: 12
                        Quote: Cat
                        what do you attribute to this?


                        and the intention to erase the USSR into powder, how does it balance?

                        DO YOU AGREE TO GIVE THE LIFE OF YOUR FAMILY FOR CLEAR PROTECTIONS?

                        you are in your own mind 7
                        we are discussing the DESTRUCTION of the WHOLE USSR, and you covered yourself with the care of the graves.
                        you again traded LIVING PEOPLE for some material values.

                        is everything okay with your head?
                      30. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 05: 44
                        Quote: Rider
                        Quote: Cat
                        what do you attribute to this?


                        and the intention to erase the USSR into powder, how does it balance?

                        DO YOU AGREE TO GIVE THE LIFE OF YOUR FAMILY FOR CLEAR PROTECTIONS?

                        you are in your own mind 7
                        we are discussing the DESTRUCTION of the WHOLE USSR, and you covered yourself with the care of the graves.
                        you again traded LIVING PEOPLE for some material values.

                        is everything okay with your head?

                        is it called - the answer to the question? No, this is an attempt to move the arrows from wet to green.


                        As for the plans for the destruction of the USSR, which really took place ... so the main reason that the Angloamers did not attack the USSR is quite simple: they realized that they could not explain to their citizens the need for war with yesterday’s ally. And instead of attacking the Union, they can easily fly their heads in Washington and London.
                        All this was not invented by me, a long-known fact, confirmed by the British and Amers. There was no hatred towards the USSR at that time, just as it was with our allies. This was later, propaganda tried - but by then the Union already had its own Bomb, so the attack plans had to be pulled away and started writing new ones. The USSR, however, did exactly the same thing.

                        Regarding "material values" ... it's your bias, not me. Because you are the one who must “change something for something”: blood for iron, stew for life, etc. But I recognize only one exchange: life for life. And nothing else.

                        And caring for the graves of soldiers is not an exchange of one thing for something else. They don’t pay for it. And they do - just like that. Without any conditions. This is - that same respect, that same gratitude. Which you won’t understand, because your calculator simply doesn’t have the necessary functions.
                      31. 0
                        8 July 2013 20: 50
                        Maybe it's just a culture?
                      32. 0
                        8 July 2013 20: 39
                        And without the stew, not ginger, probably stop the Nanks handier?
                      33. +3
                        7 July 2013 17: 39
                        Quote: Cat
                        losses in millions are considered by politicians, or historians, or literate men like you.


                        Yeah ...
                        "Kidalovo" of Poland under the Wehrmacht by England and France (come on, zholnezhi, go ahead - we will support you ... maybe) fit perfectly into this "ideology".
                      34. +1
                        8 July 2013 01: 50
                        Quote: Cat
                        the second front and the stew were important.

                        The second front ..., the help of the Allies ..., together they broke the ridge ... It's all good, it's all right, but what about the story? Namely:
                        3 September 1939 in response to the German attack on Poland, which launched the Second World War, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. In France, at the fortified Maginot Line, the Franco-British Army was located, and the German Army was concentrated at the Siegfried Line. But military operations were limited only to private operations at sea. A strange silence reigned on the border of France and Germany: huge armies stood facing each other, but there were no battles, only occasional skirmishes ensued. This period of the war (September 1939 - April 1940) went down in history as the Strange War.
                        On 7 of September 1939, units of the 3 and 4 French armies crossed the German border in Saarland and wedged into the foreground of the Siegfried Line. There was no resistance to them, and the German population of Saar was evacuated. On 12 September, a meeting of the French-British Higher Military Council was held in Abbeville with the participation of Neville Chamberlain, Edouard Daladier and the Commander-in-Chief of the French Army Maurice Gamelin. During the meeting, it was decided to end the offensive due to the fact that "the events in Poland do not justify further military operations in the Saarland."
                        In practice, this decision meant the rejection of the allied obligations towards Poland adopted on 19 on May 1939, according to which France was to use all available means to launch a ground attack on the 15 day from the beginning of the mobilization, and military operations from the very first Day of the German invasion of Poland. The Polish ambassadors in France (Edward Raczynski) and in England (Juliusz Lukasevic) tried unsuccessfully to influence the position of the allies and persuade them to fulfill their obligations. Meanwhile, the entire Z defense plan of the Polish General Staff relied precisely on the Allied offensive. The latter had a unique opportunity to develop an offensive in that single short-term period of their military superiority over the Wehrmacht and influence the further fate of all the peoples of Europe, including their own. Until the end of hostilities in Poland, the German command was not able to deploy a single unit to the Western Front (except for the aforementioned mountain rifle division). However, the Allies did not use their chance, which had disastrous consequences for them in the 1940 year.
                        With the outbreak of the Soviet-Finnish war of November 30, 1939 in the governments of Great Britain and France, plans began to develop assistance to Finland and military operations against the USSR. They planned to land an expeditionary force in Norway and airstrikes on Baku oil fields. But the end of the Soviet-Finnish war 12 March 1940 put an end to these plans.
                      35. 0
                        8 July 2013 20: 56
                        A small nuance, at the end of August, the USSR and Germany signed a pact and a secret application, according to which Poland left
                        dila
                        to Germany, and Finland to the USSR.
                      36. Cat
                        0
                        7 July 2013 03: 09
                        Quote: Rider
                        you do not happen by chance?
                        no ?
                        and don’t take into account?

                        Well then, leave your moralizing to yourself.

                        in order to give the character a face spitting on a monument to dead soldiers, or at least express an opinion that this should not be done in the face, one does not need to be a teacher or an employee of law enforcement agencies. It’s enough to be simple - person.
                      37. +2
                        7 July 2013 09: 05
                        Quote: Rider
                        I just turned the DEBTS in the opposite direction. why no one in the West is in a hurry to sprinkle ashes on the fact that it was the USSR that made the DECISIVE contribution to the victory over the Reich.

                        There is no reason to sprinkle. This is only with us WWII - it is still an urgent topic, in the rest of the world it has become history and passions there have long since calmed down.
                      38. 0
                        7 July 2013 11: 44
                        Quote: Drummer
                        This is only with us WWII - is still a hot topic,


                        Actually, that's exactly what I said.

                        They have already written their story.
                        and in it the contribution of the USSR to the war is at the level of the Chumachangs and the upper trapezundia.

                        And ONLY WE are still shedding tears and looking for some kind of homespun truth in the actions of the "allies".

                        AND THERE WAS NO TRUTH.
                        had their own selfish interests, which they successfully decided at our expense.

                        it is from this position that one should relate to them.
                      39. -1
                        7 July 2013 12: 37
                        What did you read about their story?
                      40. 0
                        7 July 2013 12: 48
                        Quote: Pimply
                        What did you read about their story?


                        believe me, more than enough.
                      41. Cat
                        -1
                        7 July 2013 15: 58
                        Quote: Rider
                        AND THERE WAS NO TRUTH.
                        had their own selfish interests, which they successfully decided at our expense.

                        What was the selfish interest of those soldiers who died in Africa, in Western Europe, in the Pacific Theater?
                      42. 0
                        7 July 2013 16: 09
                        Quote: Cat

                        what was the selfish interest of those soldiers


                        Are you really so naive, or pretending to be?

                        because they are so disinterested. then could they die in the same Normandy but two years earlier?

                        Yes, you don’t even need to die (you see how generous I am) let them just start fighting.
                      43. -1
                        7 July 2013 16: 47
                        Respected. Nonsense not tired of carrying? You just finished kindergarten to make such a reasoning?

                        EVERY country has interests. The USSR as a result of the Munich agreement with Nazi Germany received quite good pieces of land, for example. Interest? Interest. And he got at the time when that Great Britain, that the States had already fought with the Germans. So who, in theory, was supposed to open a second front? The war began two years before it came to the USSR.

                        Have you ever read anything about the war in the Pacific, or about operations in Greece, Sicily and Corsica, in Africa, about the air war, which is aviation and air defense from the Eastern Front? No, apparently. You see bloody cursed Anglo-Saxons in front of your eyes, and reality does not matter to you.
                      44. djon77
                        -1
                        7 July 2013 17: 08
                        I want to add the destruction of oil terminals in Romania in 44 years old, and American pilots did all this by depriving Hitler of Romanian oil
                      45. +3
                        7 July 2013 17: 21
                        Quote: djon77
                        I want to add the destruction of oil terminals in Romania in 44 years old, and American pilots did all this by depriving Hitler of Romanian oil


                        Nuuu Bliiin.
                        that’s where the clinical case is.

                        do you even understand. that they were bombed JUST FOR WHICH THEY WOULD NOT REACH THE USSR.
                        after all, in 44g, the RPKA began to get close to them.
                      46. Misantrop
                        +4
                        7 July 2013 17: 33
                        Quote: Rider
                        they were bombed JUST FOR WHICH THEY WOULD NOT REACH THE USSR.
                        If only because, by and large, NOTHING prevented them from bombing before, while they supplied the advancing German army ...
                      47. +1
                        7 July 2013 17: 55
                        Quote: Misantrop
                        Nothing prevented them from bombing before, while they supplied the advancing German army ...


                        EXACTLY THIS JUST MIXED!
                      48. djon77
                        -2
                        7 July 2013 19: 31
                        and where did the bombers have to take off in your opinion?
                      49. +1
                        7 July 2013 19: 35
                        from the same place as in 44g

                        start finally thinking before you post.
                      50. +3
                        7 July 2013 17: 12
                        Quote: Pimply
                        The USSR as a result of the Munich agreement with Nazi Germany received quite good pieces of land, for example.


                        MUNICIPAL AGREEMENT!?
                        The head of the kindergarten, didn’t you mix anything up by chance?

                        to Munich, where the western countries cut the new borders of Europe, the USSR did not even attend.

                        for the rest, you are completely nonsense.
                        the Allies, having a great opportunity to defeat Germany in the fall of 39, quietly sat in the trenches.
                        and here in May 40, when they merged in less than a month, the USSR was to open a second front EVEN NOT HAVING AN ALLIANCE AGREEMENT WITH ENGLAND AND FRANCE

                        so WHAT ALLY WE SHOULD BE SAVED IN 40g?

                        Well, about the Pacific

                        I still can’t understand how HOW did the USSR help to expand the sphere of influence of the USA in the Pacific region?
                      51. -1
                        7 July 2013 18: 35
                        There is such a thing - a typo. I had in mind the Deutsch-sowjetischer Nichtangriffspakt, aka the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and you know that very well.

                        Quote: Rider
                        the Allies, having a great opportunity to defeat Germany in the fall of 39, quietly sat in the trenches.


                        Tell me about how. I would like to listen.


                        Quote: Rider
                        and here in May 40, when they merged in less than a month, the USSR was supposed to open a second front, even without a alliance agreement with England and France


                        That is, you fundamentally justify ANY actions of the USSR, interpreting them only in a positive way, and condemn ANY actions of the allies, interpreting them only in a negative way. So? You have only infantile black / white reality.
                      52. +1
                        7 July 2013 18: 45
                        Quote: Pimply
                        You have only infantile black / white reality.

                        Obviously that is

                        not our flag.
                      53. -2
                        7 July 2013 20: 07
                        And this usually comes down to when there are no arguments.
                      54. +1
                        7 July 2013 20: 29
                        Quote: Pimply
                        this is usually reduced when there are no arguments.

                        Yes Yes .
                        It’s easier for me than at first
                        Quote: Pimply
                        You have only infantile black / white reality.

                        then
                        Quote: Pimply
                        History is not black and white. It is only a story.

                        She, history, is black and white!
                        Striped ! And now Russia has far from a white streak!
                      55. -3
                        7 July 2013 21: 16
                        Anything else besides inept trolling?
                      56. +1
                        7 July 2013 18: 54
                        Quote: Pimply
                        There is such a thing - a typo.


                        Yes, I immediately realized this, I just could not resist dipping you into yours.

                        but about the pact. so the Soviet Union did not grab anything that would not have been at the Empire.

                        Quote: Pimply
                        Tell me about how. I would like to listen.


                        you probably don’t know. that during the dribbling of Poland, Germany had no tanks in the west?
                        that the Siegfried line was not completed, and more than 80% of the German army frolic in Poland.
                        that at the beginning of the advance of the French divisions into the German territory (there was such a thing) they were opposed only by part of the cover. who WITHOUT FIGHT retreated.
                        that's just on this topic
                        http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/05.html

                        Quote: Pimply
                        That is, you basically justify ANY actions of the USSR,


                        if you do not understand, then I expressed bewilderment about your proposal to open a second front of the USSR against Germany (with which we had a peace treaty) in the salvation of England and France WITH WHICH WE HAVE THIS AGREEMENT.

                        Moreover, England and France, DID ALL THAT THIS AGREEMENT DO NOT CONCLUDE!

                        and in the winter of 40g (already at war with the Germans) they seriously considered the possibility of bombing the Baku oil fields.

                        SO WHAT HOW DO YOU HELP US HELP?


                        Quote: Pimply
                        You have only infantile black / white reality.


                        and what about the Arab / Israeli threes?
                        or do you still recognize that Israel is an aggressor and systematically wet Palestinian children.

                        as you can see, not only do you consider history from the point of view of YOUR COUNTRY, and not a "spherical horse in a vacuum"
                      57. -1
                        7 July 2013 20: 11
                        Quote: Rider
                        Yes, I immediately realized this, I just could not resist dipping you into yours.


                        And you think it was possible? 8) Do not tell.

                        Quote: Rider
                        or do you still recognize that Israel is an aggressor and systematically wet Palestinian children.

                        Israel periodically wet Palestinian children. This, you know, happens in any military operations. The question is whether something is being done so that the children do not die.

                        The USSR is my country. I was born in it and lived long enough.
                      58. +3
                        7 July 2013 20: 28
                        Quote: Pimply
                        And you think it was possible?


                        I think quite
                        wink

                        I hope for the rest, I have dispelled your perplexity.
                        (read the document?)

                        Well
                        Quote: Pimply

                        The USSR is my country.

                        I’ll honestly say that it’s not noticeable in your posts.
                      59. 0
                        7 July 2013 20: 38
                        Quote: Rider
                        I’ll honestly say that it’s not noticeable in your posts.

                        And where are the posts?
                        The current state of the Russian state is explained by this.
                      60. 0
                        7 July 2013 20: 44
                        Quote: Cynic
                        And where are the posts?


                        despite the fact that Eugene is a Jew, and Toli is a group of Israel, or lived there for some time.

                        General in all topics about the promised land, he stands in the position of the chosen people.

                        hence my doubts.


                        By the way, I do not think that upholding the interests of my nation is something bad.
                      61. 0
                        7 July 2013 20: 54
                        Quote: Rider
                        despite the fact that Eugene is a Jew, and Toli is a group of Israel, or lived there for some time.

                        Yes, as it were not the first day married I know .
                      62. 0
                        7 July 2013 21: 00
                        Then I did not understand how the state of present-day Russia relates to the content of the posts in the subject of our discussion?
                      63. +1
                        7 July 2013 21: 20
                        Quote: Rider
                        Then I did not understand how the state of present-day Russia relates to the content of the posts in the subject of our discussion?

                        No
                        But it correlates well with the presence of just such and similar people in the USSR.
                        Unfortunately, the best enemy of the good, but to understand this ...
                        request
                      64. -1
                        7 July 2013 21: 19
                        Sorry, this was not about bewilderment. It was about the fact that communication with you is pointless. You drew a picture for yourself. And that’s all. You don’t want to see anything beyond.
                      65. +1
                        7 July 2013 21: 31
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Sorry, this was not about bewilderment.


                        next time you put a quote in the headline, otherwise it’s hard to understand who / what the answer relates to.

                        Well
                        Quote: Pimply
                        that communication with you is pointless. You drew a picture for yourself. And that’s all.

                        if you do not take into account the documents cited by me, then yes, it makes no sense.

                        BECAUSE IN THE BUILT-IN YOU PICTURE OF THE WORLD THEY ARE NOT INTEGRATED.
                      66. 0
                        7 July 2013 22: 37
                        My picture of the world is not monochrome - that's all. The USSR, especially during the time of Stalin, was not an ideal state, moreover, it was rather unpleasant, but there was no global concentration of evil either, and in some ways it forced itself to be immensely respected. With the States - the same story. Both the USSR and the USA had their own interests — this is a common story; each country has it.

                        I do not urge you to love the United States. I urge to objectively and with respect to history, and to people who helped our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers forge the Victory. Respect, not bylyadlyachit.
                      67. 0
                        8 July 2013 10: 13
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I urge to objectively and with respect to history, and to people who helped our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers forge the Victory.

                        Is there anyone here, something, somehow said disrespectfully about those four hundred thousand or more dead Americans and the dead hundreds of thousands of soldiers from other countries?
                        There is no need to try, a priori, to assert that the policies of the states of anti-Hitler coalition and the feat of ordinary soldiers are identical.
                        Do not .
                        And then you want to remember about the plans of the attack on the USSR in the summer of 1945, which were not abandoned because of that. that the soldiers will not go to war against the former allies, and since Japan has not yet been defeated!
                        So that is not necessary.
                      68. Cat
                        -2
                        7 July 2013 17: 17
                        Quote: Rider
                        because they are so disinterested. then could they die in the same Normandy but two years earlier?

                        Who made the decision to open a second front - soldiers, or politicians? That's it.

                        The whole difference between us is that for me the memory of the war is the memory of the soldiers. And for you, war is the names of commanders and marshals, colorful arrows on the map, and six-digit numbers in loss statistics.
                        Quote: Rider
                        Yes, you don’t even need to die (you see how generous I am) let them just start fighting.

                        lying about generosity. You don’t have a soul - so, something small, black, rotten. As befits a politician under whom you mow.
                      69. Misantrop
                        +1
                        7 July 2013 17: 37
                        Quote: Cat
                        Who made the decision to open a second front - soldiers, or politicians?
                        And who is now trying to get the gesheft out of this, the soldiers who died there, or again the politicians who did not smell gunpowder in their lives? If they merge their own soldiers without problems, then what about soldiers of a foreign country?
                      70. Cat
                        -1
                        7 July 2013 23: 45
                        Quote: Misantrop
                        And who is now trying to get the gesheft out of this, the soldiers who died there, or again the politicians who did not smell gunpowder in their lives? If they merge their own soldiers without problems, then what about soldiers of a foreign country?

                        here I am about the same. Those who make the allies victorious, as well as those who prove that the actions of the allies did not affect anything at all - one field of the berry. The main thing for them is their own show off, and human lives, of their soldiers, or allies, are like that, seeds ...
                      71. 0
                        7 July 2013 17: 49
                        Quote: Cat
                        Who made the decision to open a second front - soldiers, or politicians?

                        and so what should I conclude from this?
                        that water is wet 7
                        Quote: Cat
                        lying about generosity.


                        here you are right, I really treat without much piety, to our "allies"
                        how many of them fell in Africa and Europe 300?
                        Yes, at least 30 lemons, it makes no difference to me.
                        I'm more interested in their contribution to helping us when we were most interested in it.
                        and what they did there in Africa and Oceania didn’t bother me much.

                        Quote: Cat
                        You don’t have a soul - so, something small, black, rotten.

                        Well, thanks for a good word.
                        but to see I had a great honor, disinterested generous, all-forgiving altruist.
                        whom I (unworthy) dared to teach.

                        for this I take my leave because you just trampled the exchanges with the grandeur of your intellect.

                        -
                      72. Cat
                        0
                        7 July 2013 23: 49
                        Quote: Rider

                        here you are right, I really treat without much piety, to our "allies"
                        how many of them fell in Africa and Europe 300?
                        Yes, at least 30 lemons, it makes no difference to me.
                        I'm more interested in their contribution to helping us when we were most interested in it.
                        and what they did there in Africa and Oceania didn’t bother me much.

                        here are exactly the same woodpeckers like you, sitting in London and in Washington. Which was deeply nonsense - what Stalin and Hitler were sharing there, and how many Soviet soldiers would die because of this.
                      73. 0
                        8 July 2013 00: 31
                        Quote: Cat
                        here are exactly the same woodpeckers like you, sitting in London and in Washington. Which was deeply do not care


                        so I’m trying to REDUCE you! (by analogy with a woodpecker)
                        and you whine about help, allies, and the fact that we owe them something there and owe something there.

                        (by the way, banks will open soon, you can start paying your part of the debt)

                        Well, and more about woodpeckers.

                        you, apparently, of those who prefer to lay down more of their own than to shift this honorable duty to others.

                        in this case, do not pretend to be a humanist.
                      74. Cat
                        -1
                        8 July 2013 00: 50
                        Quote: Rider
                        Quote: Cat
                        here are exactly the same woodpeckers like you, sitting in London and in Washington. Which was deeply do not care


                        so I’m trying to REDUCE you! (by analogy with a woodpecker)
                        and you whine about help, allies, and the fact that we owe them something there and owe something there.

                        (by the way, banks will open soon, you can start paying your part of the debt


                        why should I grind something? I myself have long understood that you are no better than the state and arrogant politicians. And you just confirmed it.
                        As for the payment of debts ... the dead soldiers do not need money. And you, and people like you, will manage; I owe nothing to them. And no one should.


                        Quote: Rider
                        you, apparently, of those who prefer to lay down more of their own than to shift this honorable duty to others.

                        no, it's just you - you will drive the soldiers to slaughter, drive them hungry and unarmed - because you do not need the Lend-Lease stew and Shermans with Hurricanes, you need a second front in Europe. Or maybe the Germans will stand at the border and wait while you talk to Churchill and Roosevelt for an airborne operation?
                      75. 0
                        8 July 2013 01: 12
                        Quote: Cat
                        why should I grind something?


                        and really why 7
                        you are from the altruists
                        In your opinion, we all owe this to ourselves, but we’ll manage to do it all ourselves.
                        Well, about the money, it's not me. Give it to the Westerners.
                        you kind of owed them something.

                        Quote: Cat
                        no, it’s just you - you’ll drive the soldiers to slaughter,


                        is that really ?!
                        But didn’t you say that no matter how much the Allies helped, so much is normal?
                        in my opinion it was just the opposite.
                        Quote: Cat
                        Or maybe the Germans will stand at the border


                        PERFECT OPTION !
                        but after all give you the same, and moreover from our side.

                        next time think about what you’re talking about.
                      76. Cat
                        -1
                        8 July 2013 01: 21
                        did you fuck or pretend
                        Where and when did I say that someone owed something to someone? Poke a finger.
                        Quote: Rider
                        But didn’t you say that no matter how much the Allies helped, so much is normal?

                        Yes, that is exactly what I have stated, and I will continue to say. Because in war - any help is needed. Any.
                        To find the one who fought, no matter where - in Afghanistan, in Chechnya, in the same Great Patriotic War. And they will confirm to you that in battle sometimes even an extra horn, or a grenade, or a pack of dry ones - That's not a lot. THIS IS VERY MUCH.
                      77. -1
                        8 July 2013 01: 43
                        Quote: Cat
                        you deb


                        Well, if you deny at the beginning of the post what you confirm at the end.

                        then, in fact, I communicate with a non-traditional-minded person.

                        so first
                        Quote: Cat
                        Where and when did I say that someone owed something to someone

                        and in the end
                        Quote: Cat
                        And they will confirm to you that in battle sometimes even an extra horn, or a grenade, or a pack of dry ones is not a lot.

                        that is, shouldn't these guys BE THANKS FOR this horn?

                        SO WE SHOULD TO OR SOMETHING?

                        Quote: Cat
                        Because in war - any help is needed. Any.


                        say this to those who have not lived to see the landing in Normandy.

                        but it’s normal for you, Russian men must pay with blood, for ANY help.

                        which side are you on?
                      78. Cat
                        +1
                        8 July 2013 01: 57
                        Quote: Rider
                        Quote: Cat
                        you deb


                        Well, if you deny at the beginning of the post what you confirm at the end.

                        then, in fact, I communicate with a non-traditional-minded person.

                        so first
                        Quote: Cat
                        Where and when did I say that someone owed something to someone

                        and in the end
                        Quote: Cat
                        And they will confirm to you that in battle sometimes even an extra horn, or a grenade, or a pack of dry ones is not a lot.

                        that is, shouldn't these guys BE THANKS FOR this horn?

                        SO WE SHOULD TO OR SOMETHING?

                        Quote: Cat
                        Because in war - any help is needed. Any.


                        say this to those who have not lived to see the landing in Normandy.

                        but it’s normal for you, Russian men must pay with blood, for ANY help.

                        which side are you on?

                        we have a different approach to the issue.
                        Do you think those who died - because of someone.
                        I consider those who survived - thanks to someone.

                        For you, gratitude is a certain amount in the corresponding currency.
                        For me, these are flowers at the monument to the dead soldiers, and reluctance to spit in the back of the survivors. No matter what flag they fought under, the enemy was something in common.
                      79. +1
                        8 July 2013 02: 09
                        Quote: Cat
                        we have a different approach to the issue.


                        and there is.
                        You AGREE to pay with our blood, FOR THEIR TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE.

                        but I am NOT.

                        You gave an example above with soldiers and B / K
                        Like any help will do.
                        and I will say so.
                        these guys suffered a loss of interest so 50.
                        and then they found out that the neighboring battalion didn’t do anything to attack, but threw off the excess B / C to them.
                        and then you appear with your statement that they say ANY help will do.

                        tell you how long you will live after that?
                      80. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 03: 13
                        Quote: Rider
                        You AGREE to pay with our blood, FOR THEIR TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE.

                        without technical assistance - much more blood would have been shed. It is better to eat stews and go on the attack on Sherman - than hungry and with PPS at the ready. Any veteran will confirm this. Or does his opinion mean nothing to a smart guy like you?
                        Quote: Rider
                        suffered a loss of interest so 50
                        and then they found out that the neighboring battalion didn’t do anything to attack, but threw off the excess B / C to them.
                        and then you appear with your statement that they say ANY help will do.

                        the neighboring battalion went on the attack. Let not the whole but only two companies, even two hours later than mine, even if they lost only 50 people - and my battalion lost 200. But: they could not go on the attack at all, and not share. And mine would have died not 200, but 400.
                        Yes, I will have complaints - to the one who gave the order to the neighbors to attack exactly at such a time and only to two companies. But I will have no complaints about the neighboring battalion commander, and neither will I. There will be only "thanks" - for the bullets.
                      81. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 35
                        Quote: Cat
                        any veteran will confirm this

                        any veteran will tell you. that it’s better to sit in a warm dugout and crack thickening, and let the allies go on the attack.

                        and in the second paragraph

                        I have already told you how many times. WHAT I AM FOR A U-TURN OF THE SITUATION

                        but with persistence worthy of a better application, repeat about some gratitude.

                        WHY DO YOU AGREE TO SPILL MORE OUR BLOOD THAN ALLIANCE?
                        is this what you call "taking care" of our soldier?

                        you owe them something 7
                        something should?

                        so go get paid.
                      82. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 03: 50

                        Quote: Rider
                        Quote: Cat
                        any veteran will confirm this

                        any veteran will tell you. that it’s better to sit in a warm dugout and crack thickening, and let the allies go on the attack.

                        and in the second paragraph

                        I have already told you how many times. WHAT I AM FOR A U-TURN OF THE SITUATION

                        but with persistence worthy of a better application, repeat about some gratitude.

                        WHY DO YOU AGREE TO SPILL MORE OUR BLOOD THAN ALLIANCE?
                        is this what you call "taking care" of our soldier?


                        where are the keys to the time machine? Why hid it? Why haven’t they still been driven in the 41st and have not forced Churchill to immediately open a second front?
                        Quote: Rider
                        you owe them something 7
                        something should?

                        so go get paid.

                        about some debts, and the need to pay them - only you say.
                        So pay if hunting.
                      83. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 56
                        Quote: Cat
                        where are the keys to the time machine?


                        in our company they said "where are the keys to the paravoz, and buy an elephant"

                        your questions from the same category?

                        Quote: Cat
                        So pay if hunting.


                        Well, after all, are you repeating about some kind of gratitude there.
                        you can pay a couple of Shermans, as I understand it, Russia has not yet fully settled down for lendlis.

                        can start.
                      84. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 24
                        Quote: Rider
                        Well, after all, are you repeating about some kind of gratitude there.
                        you can pay a couple of Shermans, as I understand it, Russia has not yet fully settled down for lendlis.

                        I repeat, the third time, for especially stupid: gratitude money is not measured. It has no price - just as human life has no price. Gratitude cannot be paid either through the bank, or in cash, or in gold by weight. It can not be touched, put in a cabinet on a shelf, or hung in a frame on the wall.
                        But this does not mean at all that it does not exist at all. Exist. But it will never be understood and appreciated by people who, instead of the brain, have a calculator to convert the exchange rate from that one to this and vice versa.
                      85. +1
                        8 July 2013 02: 05
                        Quote: Cat
                        Because in war - any help is needed. Any.

                        I agree, I agree to all two hundred.
                        No one belittles the help of the allies, but it is also not necessary to exalt it. Eternal memory to the soldiers and officers of the allied forces who died in WWII, and Victory was our common ..., until recently. Now a different scenario is already being heard, the USSR and Germany unleashed WWII, and the allies (for some reason in the West they include France, Great Britain and the USA) saved Europe and the world from the red-brown plague.
                        Now, about help, it's one thing when they don't help much, but they are not capable of more, for example, I still have two magazines and two grenades, I give you one magazine and one grenade, and another thing when, for example, it burns you have a house, you are rushing about, trying to fill the fire with a bucket, then I drive up in a fire engine, you to me - "Like brother help!", I say, no question, and I give you another bucket (empty) and pour a glass of water from full tank.
                        Something like that in general.
                      86. Cat
                        +1
                        8 July 2013 02: 47
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        No one belittles the help of the allies, but it is also not necessary to exalt it. Eternal memory to the soldiers and officers of the allied forces who died in WWII, and Victory was our common ..., until recently.

                        yes, unfortunately - Victory has ceased to be general ... and it began precisely with calculations: who tried harder and who less. As I already said, the soldiers on the Elbe were not measured by the number of kilometers of war — politicians and historians took up this.
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        Now, about help, it's one thing when they don't help much, but they are not capable of more, for example, I still have two magazines and two grenades, I give you one magazine and one grenade, and another thing when, for example, it burns you have a house, you are rushing about, trying to fill the fire with a bucket, then I drive up in a fire engine, you to me - "Like brother help!", I say, no question, and I give you another bucket (empty) and pour a glass of water from full tank.

                        it is so ... but on the other hand - the decision on the amount and type of assistance is made by politicians. And soldiers fight and die. And the assertion that the aid was unnecessary and insignificant is not only "phi" addressed to the politician, it is also a spit on the soldiers' graves. Therefore, personally, in such cases, I would rather keep silent about the meanness of politicians (no matter how badly I treat them) - in order not to offend those killed in battle. Fortunately, the aforementioned politicians have done many other nasty things - for which they can be poured with devil, without touching the soldiers' memory.
                      87. +1
                        8 July 2013 03: 00
                        Quote: Cat
                        and it began precisely with calculations: who worked harder and who less.

                        No, it did not begin with this, but with a revision of our history, with the demand of a court (similar to the Nuremberg one) over the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, with the recognition of "secret protocols", with the condemnation of the non-attack treaty, with two million raped German women, with the films "Bastards" , "Penalty battalion", etc.
                      88. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 22
                        Quote: Cat
                        and it began precisely with calculations: who worked harder and who less.


                        if you really taught history, you would know that THIS began with the creation of an IMPOSSIBLE plan with Fulton speech, and the formation of a NATO bloc.
                        Quote: Cat
                        As I said, the soldiers on the Elbe were not measured by the number of combat kilometers


                        only their generals and presidents. gathered to reel a few more thousand, but to the east, and to the Urals.

                        but ordinary soldiers are not to blame. that they will kill those Russians whom Hitler did not reach.

                        it is so ?
                      89. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 03: 55
                        You obviously confused the link. You had to go to an alternative history forum - your reasoning is the place there.
                      90. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 59
                        Quote: Cat
                        You had to go to an alternative history forum


                        here it is!

                        as I understand it, no plan is "unthinkable"
                        Neither a Fultan speech, nor the creation of a NATO bloc FOR YOURSELF?

                        Ale is a guest from an alternative reality, but how did you end up with 2MB?
                      91. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 10
                        Quote: Rider
                        as I understand it, no plan is "unthinkable"
                        Neither a Fultan speech, nor the creation of a NATO bloc FOR YOURSELF?

                        Those who fought with Rommel, and whose bones lie in the African sands, have nothing to do with this.
                        And you spit on their graves.
                        Politician figs.
                      92. 0
                        8 July 2013 04: 34
                        Quote: Cat
                        And you spit on their graves.


                        just like you are on OURS, so generously paying with OUR blood for Shermans and carcasses.

                        and by the way, and you don’t think that they were SO LITTLE in the West, because their chief officers did not plan to continue in the EAST?

                        so how did YOU run out of 2MB?

                        probably peace, dryuchba and complete well-being of the mas?
                      93. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 38
                        Quote: Rider
                        just like you are on OURS, so generously paying with OUR blood for Shermans and carcasses.

                        the second time I ask: without shermans and stewed meat - would there be less blood? Or more?
                        And by the way, those that were riveted in the rear of the T-34, or worked in the fields in the villages - what did they get their salaries from, too, with blood?
                      94. 0
                        8 July 2013 04: 47
                        Quote: Cat
                        the second time I ask


                        for the eleventh time I ask
                        if the Americans and the British ACTIVE fought, would ours die less?
                        and if so, why do you JUSTIFY their slowness.
                        Quote: Cat
                        And by the way, those in the rear


                        are you naive or are your questions over?

                        THEY PAYED BLOOD THEIR CLOSE.

                        and the salary (and not weak) was received by WESTERN CONCERNS.
                        but in your opinion, this is an equal deal.

                        what is going on in your head?
                      95. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 04: 59
                        Quote: Rider
                        if the Americans and the British ACTIVE fought, would ours die less?

                        in 1943, the Shermans were. Stew was. "if" - it was not. And the Angles fought with amers exactly the way they fought.
                        Therefore, the third time I ask: without Sherman and stew - would there be less or more blood?
                        Quote: Rider
                        are you naive or are your questions over?
                        you haven’t answered the given ones yet, you have to ask again three times. Where can I ask new ones ..
                      96. 0
                        8 July 2013 05: 05
                        Quote: Cat
                        Therefore, the third time I ask:


                        therefore, I can again try my question.
                        but you don’t care about the answer.
                        you are just looking for an opportunity to justify your willingness to change our lives, to their materials.
                        Quote: Cat
                        you haven’t answered the given ones yet,

                        yes answered, you just ignore them.
                        as are my questions.
                      97. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 05: 22
                        Quote: Rider
                        therefore, I can again try my question.
                        but you don’t care about the answer.

                        What is your question? why do I like to pay with my blood for someone else's iron? So I did not say that I like it, this is your fantasy. Actually - the allies supplied weapons and materials at the request of the USSR, payment - according to the conditions of Lend-Lease (for some reason they forgot to ask my opinion when concluding the contract). And if Stalin agreed to such conditions, it means that he had reasons for it. Or do you think that he, too, played with the Amers for the English? Or maybe you think that you, from your bell tower, are more visible than Stalin - what exactly should be taken from the allies and what not?
                        Quote: Rider
                        yes answered, you just ignore them.
                        as are my questions.

                        so far I've only seen one clear answer. Everything else is either an attempt to leave the topic, or an answer to a question with a question. You, by chance, have nothing to do with a known nationality?
                      98. +5
                        7 July 2013 12: 12
                        Quote: Drummer
                        This is only with us WWII - it is still an urgent topic, in the rest of the world it has become history and passions there have long since calmed down


                        Yes.
                        The topic is therefore relevant because today, almost 70 years after the VICTORY, our people have to make up for the losses of both the gene pool (the best die first) and prove the obvious.
                      99. 0
                        8 July 2013 00: 40
                        That's right!
                      100. djon77
                        +2
                        7 July 2013 08: 10
                        - Germany's share amounted to 40% of all USSR exports in 1939-41.
                        - until 1941 there was a joint German-Soviet airline, led by Soviet pilot V. Grizodubova (Note 6 *)
                        - uninterrupted supplies from the USSR of bread, meat, butter and eggs allowed Germany, where the card system operated, to create the necessary food supplies in case of war
                      101. +2
                        7 July 2013 12: 11
                        Quote: djon77
                        before 1941 there was a German-Soviet airline jointly led by Soviet pilot V. Grizodubova (Note 6 *)

                        Valentina Grizodubova - November 4 1928 of the year, being a student of KhTI, is enrolled in the first set of the Kharkov Central Aero Club. She graduated from the flying club in three months. There were no opportunities to continue training in flying skills in Kharkov, and Grizodubova, leaving the institute, entered the 1 Tula Osoaviahim School of Flight Sports. In 1929, she entered the Penza school of flight instructors.
                        She was engaged in gliding. From 1930 to 1933, she worked as a flight instructor at the Dobrolet flying club in Tula, then as a flight school instructor near the village of Tushino near Moscow.
                        In 1934-35 she was a pilot of the agitation squadron named after M. Gorky, based at the Central Airfield in Moscow. Working in a squadron, she flew almost the whole country on various types of aircraft of that time. It flew over the Pamir, Kabardino-Balkaria, and the Ferghana Valley. In 1939, she was appointed head of the USSR International Airways Directorate. Studied at the Leningrad Institute of Civil Air Fleet Engineers. In 1941, she joined the CPSU (b). She headed the Anti-Fascist Committee of Soviet Women. Member of the commission to investigate the crimes of the Nazi invaders (1942 year).
                        Quote: djon77
                        Germany's share amounted to 40% of total USSR exports to 1939-41.

                        In exchange, the USSR received the unfinished heavy cruiser Luttsov and the equipment necessary to complete its construction; samples of naval artillery, mines, torpedoes, periscopes; samples of the latest aircraft models; samples of artillery, tanks, communications; samples of more than 300 types of machine tools and machines: excavators, drilling rigs, electric motors, compressors, pumps, steam turbines, oil equipment, etc.
                        The USSR had to use its right to “temporarily suspend its supplies” due to the low “enthusiasm” in deliveries from the German side - the supply of acutely needed oil and grain was stopped.
                        In the first six months (until August 1940), the agreement of the USSR carried out only 28% of supplies foreseen for the year - equipment from Germany sent 84,2 million Reichsmarks, and the USSR sent raw materials to 119,1 million Reichsmarks. Shipments from the USSR accounted for only 6,9% of Germany's total imports over these months.
                        During 1940, Germany received from the Soviet Union 657 thousand tons of oil products, that is, 4,6% of its total annual reserves. In the USSR, in 1940, 31,1 million tons of oil was produced, that is, the export of oil products to Germany amounted to 2,1% of the total oil production in the country. Grain was grown in the USSR in the 1940 year 95,6 million tons, and exported to Germany less than 1 million tons, that is, about 1%. The main part of this export was barley (732 thousand tons) and oats (143 thousand tons), wheat - only 5 thousand tons. In German imports, the USSR ranked fifth (after Italy, Denmark, Romania and the Netherlands).
                      102. Misantrop
                        +1
                        7 July 2013 17: 41
                        Quote: djon77
                        Germany's share amounted to 40% of total USSR exports to 1939-41.
                        Tell me, with whom else on the planet at that time the USSR could trade, receiving in exchange for strategic materials not cheap garbage, but Vital materials and technologies that the country LIVES for? Announce the list of possible trading partners, together we will estimate wink
                      103. 0
                        8 July 2013 21: 46
                        Offhand, with the Ami, they built Gas, and Christy’s tank, with the Italians, they gave us leaders, the best ships of their class.
                      104. djon77
                        -1
                        7 July 2013 08: 09
                        Stalin also allowed the Germans to use the Northern Sea Route and refuel and repair ships in the Soviet Arctic. The Germans have been using these services since September 1939 (Note 3 *)
                        - in August 1940, the icebreakers "Lenin", "Stadin" and "Kaganovich" led the German raider "Komet" through the Arctic Ocean into the Pacific Ocean, which subsequently sank 6 allied (Note 1 *)
                        - The USSR gave Germany 2000 bombs weighing from 500 to 1000 kg for the bombing of England (Note 1 *)
                        - in the port of Polyarny was the naval division of the German submarine division (Note 1 *)
                        - The Germans used 2 naval bases on the territory of the USSR until the complete capture of Norway (Note 1 *)
                        - at the Air Force Research Institute, Soviet pilots drove from Germany the Junkers Ju-87 and Ju-88, Messerschmitts Me-109 and Me-110, Dornier Do-217, Heinkel-111, the Henschel attack aircraft, a liaison "Fieseler-Storch" and "Focke-Wulf" -ram, donated to us. (Note 2 *)
                        - in 1939 the Germans handed over to the USSR drawings of the battleship "Bismarck", destroyers of the "Narvik" type, technical maps of artillery installations, samples of the "Messerschmitts" Me-109 and Me-110, Yu-87, "Heinkel-111" (Note 1 *)

                        - at the request of General Guderian, the heavy artillery brigade of General Semyon Krivoshein beat the Polish garrison of the Brest Fortress for 2 days during the defeat of Poland in 1939 (Note 1 *)
                        - in 1939-40, 36 of the largest German transports hid from the British in the Kola Bay (Murmansk), among which were such world-famous passenger liners as "Bremen" (50 thousand tons of displacement), "New York", "Schwaben "," Stuttgart "," Cordillera "," St. Louis ", many timber carriers, tankers, high-speed refrigerators and a division of German submarines (Note 1 *)
                        - in 1939–40, the USSR permitted the transit through its territory of deliveries to Germany of strategic raw materials from Japan and China: rubber, oils, precious woods, etc. (Note 1 *)
                        - before the attack on Norway in the Kola Bay of the USSR, there were two German military transports with a landing party on board and the largest German tanker Jan Wellem (Note 1 *)
                        - More than 20 thousand future German officers were trained for the Wehrmacht in the military schools of the USSR
                        - Until the summer of 1941, the NKVD was transported to Germany about 4 thousand people, among them families of those arrested in the USSR and shot German Communists (in total 242 German communists were shot before the war in the USSR), as well as German workers who during the years of the economic crisis in the West moved to the USSR. Most of them were immediately sent to concentration camps by the Gestapo. In turn, the Nazis deported to the USSR the people who were wanted by the NKVD (Note 3 *)

                        - after the Germans captured Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium, Stalin, in order to please Hitler, broke off diplomatic relations with these countries and expelled the diplomatic missions of these countries from the USSR (Note 3 *)
                        - since December 1939. to the end of May 1941 Germany imported from the USSR 1 million tons of petroleum products worth 95 million German marks, grain (mainly fodder) - 1,6 million tons. by 250 million marks, cotton - 111 thousand tons per 100 million marks, cake - 36 thousand tons at 6,4 million marks, flax - 10 thousand tons at 14,7 million marks, timber - by 41,3 , 1,8 million marks, nickel - 8,1 thousand tons for 185 million marks, manganese ore - 7,6 thousand tons for 23 million marks, chrome ore - 2 thousand tons for 214 million marks, phosphates - 6 thousand tons for 14 million marks, 9 thousand tons copper, platinum, and other goods. (Note 500 *): in addition to the above, during this period of time, it is necessary to add 2,782 tons of tungsten, tin and molybdenum, 11300 tons of platinum, scrap iron and furs, XNUMX tons of "flax tow, cotton waste, rags
                      105. 0
                        7 July 2013 12: 21
                        Quote: djon77
                        in August 1940 the icebreakers "Lenin", "Stadin" and "Kaganovich" led the German raider "Komet" through the Arctic Ocean into the Pacific Ocean, which subsequently sank 6 allied (Note 1 *)

                        "Comet" ("Comet", German Komet) - German auxiliary cruiser during the Second World War. HSK-7, the former merchant ship Ems (German: Ems), was designated as “Ship No. 45” in the German Navy and “B“ Raider ”in the British Navy.
                        Disguised as a Soviet icebreaker "Dezhnev", the ship circled Cape Nordkap and reached the area north of Kolguyev Island. There, being engaged in combat training of the crew and hydrographic surveys, for some time he awaited the approach of the Soviet ships, which were to accompany him on the next leg of the journey (the neutral at that time the Soviet Union agreed to secretly help the “Comet” (the German side indicated it as the merchant ship “Fyrol” and not like a warship) pass along the northern coast of Russia along the Northern Sea Route). This was the only passage of the Kriegsmarine ship by the Northern Sea Route. The data obtained by the raider was later used by German cruisers and submarines during the fighting in the Arctic.
                    2. djon77
                      0
                      7 July 2013 08: 04
                      HELP OF THE USSR FASCIST GERMANY
                      ATTENTION! From now on, the rubric "SITE NEWS" is updated DAILY
                      Last update of this topic - 12.05.2013/XNUMX/XNUMX

                      "The Russians (USSR) supply us with even more than we want to have. Stalin spares no effort to please us. He apparently has enough reasons for this."
                      (from Goebbels diary)
                      "If Germany gets into a difficult situation, then she can be sure that the Soviet people will come to Germany's aid and will not allow Germany to be strangled. The Soviet Union is interested in a strong Germany and will not allow Germany to be thrown to the ground." Stalin 28.09.1939/8/XNUMX ( Note XNUMX *)
                      "... Germany ranks first in Soviet exports ..." - Litvinov (Note 9 *)


                      - in 1940 Germany received 657 thousand tons of oil products from 31,1 million tons of oil produced by the USSR and almost 1 million tons of grain from 95,6 million tons of harvested crops in the USSR (Note 9 *)
                      - the German artillery costructural bureau worked in the USSR (KB-2) (Note 10 *)

                      - The secret agreements of the Rappal Treaty, signed on 11.08.1922/1919/XNUMX, according to which Soviet Russia guaranteed the supply of strategic materials to Germany and, moreover, provided its own territory for testing new types of military equipment prohibited for the development of the XNUMX Treaty of Versailles, were also invaluable for Germany. .
                      - in 1924 Junkers manufactured several hundred metal aircraft per year

                      in the suburbs near Moscow Fili. Very soon, for the needs of Germany, production began of more than 300 thousand shells per year at the reconstructed arsenals in Leningrad, Tula and Zlatoust. Poison gas was produced by the Berzol company in Trotsk (now Gatchina), and submarines and armored ships were built and launched on the docks of Leningrad and Nikolaev (Note 4 *)
                      - from the USSR, the last train with oil, manganese, and grain crossed the German border an hour before the fascist invasion (Note 3 *)
                      - On February 11.02.1940, 1, under an agreement resulting from Soviet-German negotiations on the development of economic cooperation, the USSR undertook to supply Germany with almost 500 million tons of oil, 300 thousand tons of iron ore, 2,4 thousand tons of pig iron and scrap metal, 100, 7 tons of platinum, XNUMX thousand tons of chromium ore, as well as a large amount of wood and manganese ore. In addition, the USSR promised to purchase various types of raw materials for Germany in third countries. Germany also received the right of railway transit from Iran, Romania and the countries of the Far East (Note XNUMX *)
                      - a little over the year of the trade agreement - from spring 1940 to June 1941, Germany received 1 million tons of wheat, 900 thousand tons of oil products, 100 thousand tons of cotton, 500 thousand tons of phosphates, a significant amount of strategic materials. The USSR also provided the Germans with transit traffic through Soviet territory of 1 million tons of soybeans from Manchuria, a significant amount of rubber, tin and other materials from Southeast Asia. In addition, the USSR agreed to purchase metals and raw materials for Germany in third countries (Note 3 *)
                      - especially important for Germany was the possibility of the transit of rubber and soybeans from India through the USSR to the USSR (Note 5 *)
                    3. djon77
                      0
                      7 July 2013 08: 06
                      - Stalin also allowed the Germans to use the Northern Sea Route and refuel and repair ships in the Soviet Arctic. The Germans have been using these services since September 1939 (Note 3 *)
                      - in August 1940, the icebreakers "Lenin", "Stadin" and "Kaganovich" led the German raider "Komet" through the Arctic Ocean into the Pacific Ocean, which subsequently sank 6 allied (Note 1 *)
                      - The USSR gave Germany 2000 bombs weighing from 500 to 1000 kg for the bombing of England (Note 1 *)
                      - in the port of Polyarny was the naval division of the German submarine division (Note 1 *)
                      - The Germans used 2 naval bases on the territory of the USSR until the complete capture of Norway (Note 1 *)
                      - at the Air Force Research Institute, Soviet pilots drove from Germany the Junkers Ju-87 and Ju-88, Messerschmitts Me-109 and Me-110, Dornier Do-217, Heinkel-111, the Henschel attack aircraft, a liaison "Fieseler-Storch" and "Focke-Wulf" -ram, donated to us. (Note 2 *)
                      - in 1939 the Germans handed over to the USSR drawings of the battleship "Bismarck", destroyers of the "Narvik" type, technical maps of artillery installations, samples of the "Messerschmitts" Me-109 and Me-110, Yu-87, "Heinkel-111" (Note 1 *)

                      - at the request of General Guderian, the heavy artillery brigade of General Semyon Krivoshein beat the Polish garrison of the Brest Fortress for 2 days during the defeat of Poland in 1939 (Note 1 *)
                      - in 1939-40, 36 of the largest German transports hid from the British in the Kola Bay (Murmansk), among which were such world-famous passenger liners as "Bremen" (50 thousand tons of displacement), "New York", "Schwaben "," Stuttgart "," Cordillera "," St. Louis ", many timber carriers, tankers, high-speed refrigerators and a division of German submarines (Note 1 *)
                      - in 1939–40, the USSR permitted the transit through its territory of deliveries to Germany of strategic raw materials from Japan and China: rubber, oils, precious woods, etc. (Note 1 *)
                      - before the attack on Norway in the Kola Bay of the USSR, there were two German military transports with a landing party on board and the largest German tanker Jan Wellem (Note 1 *)
                      - More than 20 thousand future German officers were trained for the Wehrmacht in the military schools of the USSR
                      - Until the summer of 1941, the NKVD was transported to Germany about 4 thousand people, among them families of those arrested in the USSR and shot German Communists (in total 242 German communists were shot before the war in the USSR), as well as German workers who during the years of the economic crisis in the West moved to the USSR. Most of them were immediately sent to concentration camps by the Gestapo. In turn, the Nazis deported to the USSR the people who were wanted by the NKVD (Note 3 *)

                      - after the Germans captured Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium, Stalin, in order to please Hitler, broke off diplomatic relations with these countries and expelled the diplomatic missions of these countries from the USSR (Note 3 *)
                      - since December 1939. to the end of May 1941 Germany imported from the USSR 1 million tons of petroleum products worth 95 million German marks, grain (mainly fodder) - 1,6 million tons. by 250 million marks, cotton - 111 thousand tons per 100 million marks, cake - 36 thousand tons at 6,4 million marks, flax - 10 thousand tons at 14,7 million marks, timber - by 41,3 , 1,8 million marks, nickel - 8,1 thousand tons for 185 million marks, manganese ore - 7,6 thousand tons for 23 million marks, chrome ore - 2 thousand tons for 214 million marks, phosphates - 6 thousand tons for 14 million marks, 9 thousand tons copper, platinum, and other goods. (Note 500 *): in addition to the above, during this period of time, it is necessary to add 2,782 tons of tungsten, tin and molybdenum, 11300 tons of platinum, scrap iron and furs, XNUMX tons of "flax tow, cotton waste, rags
                    4. djon77
                      -1
                      7 July 2013 08: 08
                      HELP OF THE USSR FASCIST GERMANY
                      ATTENTION! From now on, the rubric "SITE NEWS" is updated DAILY
                      Last update of this topic - 12.05.2013/XNUMX/XNUMX

                      "The Russians (USSR) supply us with even more than we want to have. Stalin spares no effort to please us. He apparently has enough reasons for this."
                      (from Goebbels diary)
                      "If Germany gets into a difficult situation, then she can be sure that the Soviet people will come to Germany's aid and will not allow Germany to be strangled. The Soviet Union is interested in a strong Germany and will not allow Germany to be thrown to the ground." Stalin 28.09.1939/8/XNUMX ( Note XNUMX *)
                      "... Germany ranks first in Soviet exports ..." - Litvinov (Note 9 *)


                      - in 1940 Germany received 657 thousand tons of oil products from 31,1 million tons of oil produced by the USSR and almost 1 million tons of grain from 95,6 million tons of harvested crops in the USSR (Note 9 *)
                      - the German artillery costructural bureau worked in the USSR (KB-2) (Note 10 *)

                      - The secret agreements of the Rappal Treaty, signed on 11.08.1922/1919/XNUMX, according to which Soviet Russia guaranteed the supply of strategic materials to Germany and, moreover, provided its own territory for testing new types of military equipment prohibited for the development of the XNUMX Treaty of Versailles, were also invaluable for Germany. .
                      - in 1924 Junkers manufactured several hundred metal aircraft per year

                      in the suburbs near Moscow Fili. Very soon, for the needs of Germany, production began of more than 300 thousand shells per year at the reconstructed arsenals in Leningrad, Tula and Zlatoust. Poison gas was produced by the Berzol company in Trotsk (now Gatchina), and submarines and armored ships were built and launched on the docks of Leningrad and Nikolaev (Note 4 *)
                      - from the USSR, the last train with oil, manganese, and grain crossed the German border an hour before the fascist invasion (Note 3 *)
                      - On February 11.02.1940, 1, under an agreement resulting from Soviet-German negotiations on the development of economic cooperation, the USSR undertook to supply Germany with almost 500 million tons of oil, 300 thousand tons of iron ore, 2,4 thousand tons of pig iron and scrap metal, 100, 7 tons of platinum, XNUMX thousand tons of chromium ore, as well as a large amount of wood and manganese ore. In addition, the USSR promised to purchase various types of raw materials for Germany in third countries. Germany also received the right of railway transit from Iran, Romania and the countries of the Far East (Note XNUMX *)
                      - a little over the year of the trade agreement - from spring 1940 to June 1941, Germany received 1 million tons of wheat, 900 thousand tons of oil products, 100 thousand tons of cotton, 500 thousand tons of phosphates, a significant amount of strategic materials. The USSR also provided the Germans with transit traffic through Soviet territory of 1 million tons of soybeans from Manchuria, a significant amount of rubber, tin and other materials from Southeast Asia. In addition, the USSR agreed to purchase metals and raw materials for Germany in third countries (Note 3 *)
                      - especially important for Germany was the possibility of the transit of rubber and soybeans from India through the USSR to the USSR (Note 5 *)
                      1. +5
                        7 July 2013 11: 25
                        Quote: djon77
                        HELP OF THE USSR FASCIST GERMANY


                        And what actions from the USSR in those days did you want to expect?
                        Back in early 1940, England and France were planning bombing strikes on the Baku deposits. Not all English and French volunteers have returned from Finland yet. It was England that supplied dates with modern, for those times, "Brewsters" and "De Havilands". It was England and France who sabotaged the negotiations in Moscow in early to mid-August 1939 on the anti-Hitler coalition, thereby throwing the USSR into the "friendly embrace" of Nazi Germany.
                        And there is no fault of the Soviet leadership in that they complied with all the clauses of the trade agreement, as well as the clauses of the agreement on military-technical cooperation.
                        Your ERROR is an understanding of the situation of 1940 in the context of 1942-1945's.
                        Have you tried to project the relationship between the United States and the USSR during the Second World War on today's relationship, not to mention the times of the Cold War?
                      2. djon77
                        -3
                        7 July 2013 14: 55
                        so why complain about the Americans trading with Germany? that is, they cannot, and the USSR could be traded and armed bypassing the Versailles treaty. as I understand it, the Americans should have fought for the USSR judging by your logic. as far as I know, the states fought for themselves and after that the USSR also helped. and about food and supplies, they helped the whole war.
                      3. +3
                        7 July 2013 16: 45
                        Quote: djon77
                        so why complain about the Americans trading with Germany?


                        at the time of trading. The USSR and Germany WAS NOT a state of war.

                        but the United States traded with the United States ALREADY Fighting with it.

                        if you haven’t found this SMALL difference so far, then there’s how to grill "no comments"

                        and by the way, could you give the SOURCE of your awareness.
                      4. 0
                        8 July 2013 21: 50
                        At the same time, Germany assisted the USSR in the war against Finland, its strategic ally!
                      5. 0
                        7 July 2013 11: 30
                        So what ?
                        How much was the share of goods from the USSR in total German imports?
                        10%, 15%?
                        Did they steal the rest?
                        By the way, in the prewar years, exports from Germany exceeded imports into it.
                        Not everything was so simple then, not everything.
                      6. +4
                        7 July 2013 12: 06
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Not everything was so simple then, not everything.

                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        ERROR - understanding the situation of 1940 in the context of 1942-1945's


                        I’m talking about this, that each period of time in world history has its own specific context, due to those current events then.
                      7. djon77
                        -2
                        7 July 2013 14: 56
                        bombs for the bombing of england what context did they have?
                      8. +3
                        7 July 2013 17: 20
                        Quote: djon77
                        bombs for the bombing of england what context did they have?

                        Same as SKF bearings for Messers, Junkers and Fokkers supplied to belligerent Germany from the USA and Sweden.
                        As the lion's share of the Wallenberg family in the shares of these SKF companies, so is Raul Wallenberg, the advocate of all Jews who worked for both the Gestapo and Amer’s military intelligence.
                      9. +1
                        7 July 2013 14: 33
                        Quote: djon77
                        HELP OF THE USSR FASCIST GERMANY

                        Johnny, my boy. Look for help from Romania ... no, not help.
                        After all, they themselves volunteered to help because of their capabilities. And the Nazis stood in power.
                        In short, let's talk about the contribution of Romania to the failed victory of Nazi Germany. Something about this is not customary to say recently. But we are a serious and objective people, we despise conventions.

                        Quote: Cat
                        No. They also gave their lives - for the Victory. And also worthy of gratitude and reverence. No matter what flag they served.

                        The cat carefully read your arguments. I caught the point and somewhere I even share, but there are weaknesses. What can you say about the contribution of the Romanians to the fight against the fascists? After all, they also laid more than one hundred fascists. However, after already how ...
                        But according to your logic, they saved more than one Soviet life. Do they bow to my legs or what?
                      10. djon77
                        0
                        7 July 2013 14: 59
                        and if only he understood something and knew that most of the sodates were far from politics and the soldiers themselves didn’t give orders, but they did the task. And the peoples cannot be fascists. But you still need to read many books along the way
                      11. +2
                        7 July 2013 18: 35
                        Quote: djon77
                        most of the sodats were far from politics and the soldiers themselves do not give orders, but fulfill the assigned task.


                        which did not stop them from burning whole villages, filling shooting ditches and decorating the streets of cities and villages with gallows.

                        Quote: djon77
                        peoples cannot be fascists


                        exactly, neither the Baltic states, nor the Hungarians, nor the Germans with your older brothers were by any means fascists.
                        they simply KILLED PEOPLE.
                        Quote: djon77
                        but you still have a lot of books to read along the way


                        that's for sure.
                        I advise you to familiarize yourself with:What Soviet people fought for
                        http://militera.lib.ru/research/dukov_ar/index.html
                      12. 0
                        7 July 2013 19: 54
                        Romanians pulled themselves up? Coat of arms in the center of whose? (Question encyclopedic) Flight and not identify.
                      13. +2
                        7 July 2013 21: 12
                        Quote: djon77
                        and if only he understood something and knew that most of the sodates were far from politics and the soldiers themselves didn’t give orders, but they did the task. And the peoples cannot be fascists. But you still need to read many books along the way

                        The lucky lover, it’s you who touched on such a slippery topic, not me.
                        Poke your finger if you can prove the opposite.
                        You are talking about helping the USSR of Germany, I’m talking about participating in the sharing of the skin of an unkilled bear, on a piece of which Romania licked so much.
                        Who stuttered that nations might be fascists?
                        Yes, nobody but you! See and see a lot for yourself.
                        Tell me where the Jewish ghetto was located in Chisinau, and who organized it. How many Jews, Gypsies, representatives of other nationalities fell victim to Romanian fascism in the territory of Moldova? And in Odessa, on whose hands is the blood of the slain?
                        The soldiers themselves do not give orders?
                        Do you put the blame on the Romanian leadership? To whom personally?
                        And what right do you have to denounce the USSR in trade with Nazi Germany, with which all Europe and the United States traded, if you do not see Romania’s guilt in tens and hundreds of thousands of its victims?
                        What do you have to say to this other than pathetic bleating?
                      14. grafrozow
                        -2
                        8 July 2013 03: 24
                        YOU are right. Why have you forgotten the text of the international, which, according to the order of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, was sung by the whole country, we will destroy the whole world of violence to the ground, and then ... And how should the Americans and the British perceive this nonsense? because no one calls the Russian villains.
                      15. Cat
                        +1
                        7 July 2013 16: 39
                        Quote: Flood
                        The cat carefully read your arguments. I caught the point and somewhere I even share, but there are weaknesses. What can you say about the contribution of the Romanians to the fight against the fascists? After all, they also laid more than one hundred fascists. However, after already how ...
                        But according to your logic, they saved more than one Soviet life. Do they bow to my legs or what?

                        None of those veterans with whom I had to communicate - did not require any bows, or any other expressions of gratitude. They saw death up close, and they know the value of human life, and against this background all the present "veneration and admiration" looks somehow pale ... And they do not divide Victory into "ours" and "theirs". Remember the meeting on the Elbe - unless then, the soldiers counted who and how many kilometers had fought, who and how many Nazis killed? No. This was done later - politicians, historians, forum inmates are different ...
                        But after all, they fought, not they, not lords with presidents - soldiers fought. And respect for the participants in the war is respect for the soldiers, and not for those who made decisions in high offices, counted the percentage of profit from Lend-Lease, etc.
                        And it is out of respect for the soldiers that I urge you to stop dividing Victory into "that" and "this", into "important" and "not so".
                      16. +2
                        7 July 2013 21: 32
                        Quote: Cat
                        And it is out of respect for the soldiers that I urge you to stop dividing Victory into "that" and "this", into "important" and "not so".

                        You still did not answer my question.
                        Let me paraphrase: how do you personally feel about such "winners".

                        You understand, Victory for participating veterans and for us - it is still different. For them, this is part of life that cannot be crossed out or erased by anyone and by no means.
                        For us, this is primarily a tribute to memory.
                        So, I will always share the Victory in OUR and THEM, Victory as MEMORY of those great and terrible times.
                        Because Victory will become common for all of us, including Americans, British, French, Poles, Ethiopians, Somalis, Australians, Romanians, etc., only when we accept THEIR historical interpretations of events.
                        Each is first of all proud of his grandfather, great-grandfather, then his people, and only then in the third place are all these tolerant equivocations.
                        Forgive me for being straightforward, time does not stand still.
                        And I am sure that in Europe or the USA they know about that great war much less than ours according to the averaged statistics. And soon they will not remember anything.
                        Ask the Romanian what is World War II for him. I am sure that the overwhelming majority will answer about the triumph of justice, the accession of Bessarabia, and the reunification of Great Romania.
                        It was not in vain that I asked about the Romanians before. But they, too, "participated" after being pressed to the nail.
                        Everyone has their own truth, everyone has their own victory.
                  2. Fin
                    +1
                    6 July 2013 22: 03
                    Quote: Pimply
                    World war for that and world war - everything was interconnected there. The containment of Africa gave the Germans the opportunity to break through to the oil reserves of Iran and Iraq, to ​​Suez, the base for a potential exit to New Zealand and Australia.

                    The USSR was in Iran.
                    Hitler especially did not count on the resources of Africa; he got involved only because of the defeats of pasta with a sense of allied duty.
                    1. 0
                      6 July 2013 23: 19
                      Quote: Fin
                      The USSR was in Iran.


                      please do not forget that there were both British and Poles (those who squandered from the war with the Germans to the English rear)
                      and (I don’t remember exactly) seem French.

                      so the oil of iraq. the Germans did not shine at any time.
                      1. -2
                        8 July 2013 21: 59
                        The Poles did not budge, they left us to fight with the amers against the Germans, and the French, like a defeated nation, were ruled by the Germans!
                  3. 0
                    8 July 2013 20: 27
                    From Africa to Australia, further than walking to China!
              4. Misantrop
                +1
                6 July 2013 22: 02
                Quote: Pimply
                in sicily

                Yeah especially in sicily laughing A masterpiece military operation, without a single shot good
          2. Constantine
            -1
            6 July 2013 16: 34
            Not ham, child, people who are smarter and older than you. If you are not in the know, the second front was opened much earlier than 1944. Military operations in Africa and the Pacific Ocean, the capture of Sicily in 1943. The landing in 1944 was due to the most serious preparations for the assault on the deeply echeloned defense of the Germans in Europe.


            Quote: Pimply
            References, proofs, certificates
          3. Avenger711
            0
            6 July 2013 20: 06
            Actions other than the Pacific Ocean did not require special efforts, and therefore were not considered a second front.
            1. 0
              6 July 2013 20: 40
              Are you laughing? Well then, probably, the Second World War did not begin on September 1, 1939, but on June 22, 1941.
              1. +1
                6 July 2013 23: 24
                actually it is, since before that, they had practically not fought.

                and only after the USSR and Japan entered the war,
                the war really became WORLD.
                1. -1
                  8 July 2013 22: 06
                  In my opinion, a friend decided to rewrite the story completely!
            2. 0
              8 July 2013 22: 05
              In my opinion, on the Karelian front, the whole army did not conduct any military operations against the Finns for two whole years! Maybe we will not consider them as front-line soldiers either?
          4. 0
            8 July 2013 00: 34
            Quote: Pimply
            the second front was opened much earlier


            If I am not mistaken, but even the Americans did not consider Africa and Italy a Second Front. And the landing in Italy, in general, many consider, like the Greek campaign, more a political operation. Recall where W. Churchill first suggested opening the Second Front.
          5. 0
            8 July 2013 20: 19
            The hostilities, of course, were just the scale is not at all the same!
        5. 0
          8 July 2013 19: 30
          Maybe someone thinks that it would be better if we put our 6ooooo?
      2. Fin
        +18
        6 July 2013 10: 27
        Quote: professor
        Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans. Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition? The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...

        The ridge was then broken in 42-43, and the second front was opened in 44. Therefore, it is not worth saying loudly "the ridge has been broken". And they probably broke it in Africa?
        And here are the Lend-Lease supplies from Wiki:

        Allied supplies were very unevenly distributed over the years of the war. In 1941 — 1942 contingent liabilities were not constantly fulfilled; the situation normalized only from the second half of the 1943 year. Of the promised by England 800 aircraft and 1000 tanks, which the USSR was supposed to receive in October-December 1941, 669 aircraft and 487 tanks were received. From October 1941 to 30 on June 1942, the United States sent 545 planes, 783 tanks to the USSR, 3 more than once less than promised, and 16502 trucks, that is, 5 more than once less than planned.

        When we bleed the allies were not in a hurry. Yes, they helped, there are no questions, but there is no need to exaggerate.
        I can’t find anything about 600 thousand losses anywhere, everywhere they write 400 thousand FOR 2 MV.
        I always read your posts with interest, but here somehow I haven’t woken up.
        1. Roll
          +5
          6 July 2013 11: 57
          wassat And what is the price for the front in October-December of 660 aircraft and 480 tanks. Maybe that's why Moscow resisted? The spoon is good for dinner. Take these same planes from the Red Army in December 41 and the picture of the battles would be different. And then England, when it was not our friend, was that the fact that Stalin made England help the USSR was worth a lot. And that the Allies were not in a hurry, so they were our potential enemies, that then history confirmed and hanging their claims on them was stupid.
        2. -11
          6 July 2013 11: 57
          Look at the supply of gunpowder, metal, products, etc.

          Broke including in Africa, Sicily, the Pacific Ocean.
          1. +10
            6 July 2013 14: 40
            Greetings Eugene !!!! Long time no intersect)))) hi
            And now to the question - how much time they could not deal with one single Rommel corps in the SA? And how did it help us? In the end, almost all the tanks on the Eastern Front were taken from Rommel and then they were able to do something with him ... So who is it who helped?
            Further, Sicily 1943 - landed, beat the Italians a little, then A.A. Hitler sent Edelweiss and a mustache to help, the offensive in Sicily failed miserably and they sat there until 44g, until we entered Germany and Hitler had to take Edelweiss back for his own needs ... How did sitting in Sicily help us specifically? The answer is nothing ... hi
            1. -6
              6 July 2013 14: 57
              Quote: Raven1972
              In the end, almost all tanks on the Eastern Front were taken from Rommel

              These are fairy tales. On the contrary, Rommel was constantly trying to strengthen. It is enough to look at the composition of the troops subordinate to him. However, the British and the Americans were able to very efficiently block the supply of the group, which ultimately led to the loss of almost all of the equipment and, ultimately, surrender.
              1. +4
                6 July 2013 15: 08
                Not a fairy tale, where did the tanks in African (desert) camouflage come from in the Crimea in the summer of 42? And another question - what prevented Rommel from strengthening? Could it be the Eastern Front and our summer offensive? So do not exaggerate the merits of the Allies ...
                1. -2
                  6 July 2013 16: 28
                  Once again, these are not "tanks in desert camouflage", this is the standard paint job. By the end of 1943, absolutely all armored vehicles were painted dark yellow as a base coat.
                  1. +3
                    6 July 2013 16: 31
                    Quote: Spade
                    Once again, these are not "tanks in desert camouflage", this is the standard paint job. By the end of 1943, absolutely all armored vehicles were painted dark yellow as a base coat.

                    In fact, in this
                    1. +2
                      6 July 2013 16: 35
                      I have already written. Directive dated February 18, 1943 - all equipment must be repainted in dark yellow Dunkel Gelb. Gasoline-borne paints for camouflage over this yellow one went to the troops.
                  2. +1
                    6 July 2013 18: 54
                    I didn’t mean the basic color))) Camouflage in the Reich is generally an interesting story)))) Until the moment you indicated, the crews themselves applied the camouflage using improvised means ... And sandy camouflage was applied with yellow spots and stripes over the base gray .. .. I mean this color
                2. +1
                  6 July 2013 19: 24
                  Significantly strengthen Rommel prevented the Mediterranean Sea. And so, despite the Soviet offensive, since the 43rd year, the Eastern Front has acted mainly as a donor for groups operating in Italy and France. Take an interest in where the SS tank divisions went from 43–44 from the East, and also many army formations (aviation began to be pulled out earlier to cover the Reich and operations in the Mediterranean region).
                  1. djon77
                    0
                    7 July 2013 15: 08
                    so judging by your logic, the eastern front was constantly weakening. then I don’t understand exactly where and then fought, on the eastern front if the equipment was constantly taken away or in the Mediterranean? is this really a masterpiece of what you wrote))) in 43, Hitler really stopped the attack in the Kursk region just to come to the aid of musolini. here is the price of landing in Sicily
              2. +1
                6 July 2013 21: 36
                Quote: Spade
                These are fairy tales. On the contrary, Rommel was constantly trying to strengthen.

                Quote: Spade
                However, the British and the Americans were able to very high quality block the supply of the group

                So tanks destined for Rommel ended up in Russia?
            2. -10
              6 July 2013 15: 16
              They said a little lower. You missed the battle for the Atlantic, the bombing of Germany by the Allies - and they were massive, the Pacific Ocean, etc.
              Arfika is resources. And the units connected there and recaptured lands are resources, primarily, which the Germans did not get.
              The Allies had a big plus - they could, taking advantage of the situation, systematically squeeze out the Germans. They had such an opportunity. And they took advantage of it
              1. +9
                6 July 2013 15: 34
                Eugene, what resources were in the CA at that time? Oil - development in its infancy, mineral ores - the same .... Ie it was necessary to conduct research to invest in the development of these fields (which still had to be found) for this at that time Germany had neither the strength nor the means .... The main resources of Germany came from the Scandinavian countries, the same Sweden, Norway ... Oil - Romanian oil fields, so Germany didn’t get anything from the SA ...
                Atlantic? Well, excuse me, how did all these battles for all kinds of islands help us? Did Germany (our main adversary in the Great Patriotic War) have any military forces there? Or did Germany help Japan? supplies of equipment for example? When Stalin forced Germany to declare himself an aggressor, he ensured that Japan did not intervene, with which a peace treaty was signed, and under the Steel Pact, Japan could intervene only if the aggressor were the USSR, so that we would be neither hot nor cold .... The Kwantung army didn’t go anywhere from Manchuria, and it stood there all the war .... request
                And what did the allies bomb in Germany until the end of the 43rd year if the release of military equipment and weapons did not stop by the Germans until they surrendered at 45m? Nothing absolutely .... And at 44m-45m what did they bomb there? Is that Dresden ....
                1. +3
                  6 July 2013 15: 51
                  And we recall the Polish army of Anders, fully dressed, shod and armed with the USSR, which the brazen people claimed for themselves in the SA, and then put in Italy ... Perhaps these resources were not unnecessary for the USSR?
                  1. -6
                    6 July 2013 16: 21
                    Read a little more about Anders army.
                    1. +1
                      6 July 2013 17: 49
                      I was interested in this question, and I know him well enough ... hi
                2. -6
                  6 July 2013 16: 20
                  "In connection with the defeat at El Alamein in 1942, the plans of the German command to block the Suez Canal and gain control over the Middle East oil were destroyed."
                  I recommend that you once again walk through the history of the region during this period.

                  Quote: Raven1972
                  When Stalin forced Germany to declare himself an aggressor, he ensured that Japan did not intervene, with which a peace treaty was signed, and under the Steel Pact, Japan could intervene only if the aggressor were the USSR, so that we would be neither hot nor cold ....

                  You are joking? Japan, if it had not fought with the States, would have entered the war with the USSR. Just because it opened up incredible prospects for the Japanese.
                  1. Constantine
                    +1
                    6 July 2013 16: 35
                    "In connection with the defeat at El Alamein in 1942, the plans of the German command to block the Suez Canal and gain control over the Middle East oil were destroyed."
                    I recommend that you once again walk through the history of the region during this period.

                    Quote: Raven1972
                    When Stalin forced Germany to declare himself an aggressor, he ensured that Japan did not intervene, with which a peace treaty was signed, and under the Steel Pact, Japan could intervene only if the aggressor were the USSR, so that we would be neither hot nor cold ....
                    You are joking? Japan, if it had not fought with the States, would have entered the war with the USSR. Just because it opened up incredible prospects for the Japanese.


                    It's time to start reinforcing the words wink
                    Quote: Pimply
                    References, proofs, certificates
                    1. -1
                      6 July 2013 17: 18
                      And I reinforce.

                      S. A. Lozovsky (Molotov’s deputy, who was responsible for relations with Japan in the USSR People’s NKID) wrote in a secret note to Stalin on January 15, 1945: “... in the first period of the Soviet-German war, we were more interested than the Japanese in maintaining the pact, and starting in Stalingrad, the Japanese are more interested than us in maintaining a neutrality pact. ”

                      According to clause 3 of the Neutrality Pact between the USSR and Japan of 1941, “This pact comes into force from the day it is ratified by both contracting parties and remains valid for five years. If none of the contracting parties denounces the pact one year before the deadline, it will be considered automatically extended for the next five years. ”

                      That is, at any moment, either side could denounce the pact. Which, at some point, the USSR did.

                      http://www.webcitation.org/61BgrOlQF

                      Here is a fairly detailed analysis of forces.
                      1. Constantine
                        0
                        6 July 2013 19: 11
                        Here is a fairly detailed analysis of forces.


                        This is another matter)
                  2. +1
                    6 July 2013 17: 43
                    I wouldn’t enter)))) Do not forget that there was no formal reason, in addition to the Far East, our divisions did not disappear, and the Japanese also received a good lesson in Hassan and Khalkhin-Gol, therefore they were not going to climb to nm + there was a peace treaty, which they didn’t intend to violate ... There are curious materials on this subject from the Archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, do not be lazy, read ...
                    1. -5
                      6 July 2013 17: 49
                      Hassan, and Khalkhin Gol - this, of course, is good. But they were not going to climb, therefore, but because the war on several fronts was problematic. And Japan at that time fought with the States, with China, with Britain. Do you think she had enough? Were it not for that war, a peace treaty would not have lasted. And the documents of those years clearly speak of this.
                      1. +3
                        6 July 2013 17: 56
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Were it not for that war, a peace treaty would not hold out

                        Without a doubt, if the Army had "overcome" the Fleet, in the matter of further prospects of the war, there would not have been Peer Harbor, but we would have had a "second front" in the Far East. So, we simply have to erect a golden monument to Richard Sorge, in gratitude for his role in "solving" this issue ...
                      2. -2
                        6 July 2013 18: 05
                        Absolutely.
                      3. -1
                        6 July 2013 18: 17
                        I repeat again:
                        There are interesting materials on this subject from the Archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, do not be lazy, read ...
                    2. +1
                      6 July 2013 19: 00
                      Quote: Raven1972
                      I wouldn’t enter)))) Do not forget, there was no formal reason

                      What nonsense. Can't you remind me why the collision happened on the Halkin-Gol? What a formal reason was found by both Japan and the USSR. Don't you think the Japanese could play this "card" in the future?
                      1. 0
                        8 July 2013 22: 17
                        The borders between China and Mongolia in the Khalkhin Gol area had vague outlines, and the Japanese believed that they were in China, and we were in Mongolia. Here we had a fight!
                    3. +4
                      6 July 2013 19: 05
                      Quote: Raven1972
                      I wouldn’t enter))))

                      Some certainty regarding this policy came on July 2, 1941 after the decisions of the "Imperial Conference" ("gozen kaigi"). Adopted by this meeting of the top Japanese military-political leadership in the presence of Emperor Hirohito, the top secret document "Program of the Empire's National Policy in accordance with the changing situation", in particular, stated: "If the German-Soviet war develops in a direction favorable to our empire, we will use military force to solve the northern problem and ensure the security of the northern borders. "
                      On July 3, the day after the "imperial conference," he informed Moscow that Japan would enter the war no later than 6 weeks later. "The Japanese offensive will begin on Vladivostok, Khabarovsk and Sakhalin with a landing on the Soviet coast of Primorye," Sorge informed. This corresponded to the Kantokuen plan for the war against the USSR developed by the Japanese General Staff of the Army. Sorge almost accurately set the date for the Japanese treacherous attack. As it became known after the war, the decision to start the war was planned for August 10, and the beginning of the Japanese offensive - on August 29, 1941.
                      At the regular "imperial meeting" held on September 6, the document "Program for the Implementation of the State Policy of the Empire" fixed the decision to refrain from attacking the USSR in 1941, postponing it until the spring of 1942. Participants of the meeting of the government coordinating council and the imperial rates (September 3) concluded that "since Japan will not be able to deploy large-scale operations in the North until February, it is necessary to quickly carry out operations in the South during this time."
                  3. 0
                    6 July 2013 17: 48
                    Eugene, I studied that period quite well))) The Germans did not have the opportunity to develop, and most importantly deliver BV oil, in addition to everything, look at the geography and oil production in that region at that time ... hi
                    1. -5
                      6 July 2013 18: 18
                      Access to Iran, Iraq, the Suez Canal - the Germans had why it seeks to Africa. And Africa gave not only oil, and not so much oil, but a geopolitical advantage, metal. But, again - this was not a primary front. Although underestimating it is pointless.
                      1. 0
                        6 July 2013 18: 40
                        Eugene, in fact, the Germans sent Rommel after persistent requests for help from the Italians, with whom they were allies in the Steel Pact)))) They were even generous with the whole building)))) So they wanted to go there))))
                3. djon77
                  -3
                  7 July 2013 15: 11
                  there wouldn’t be a battle for the Atlantic and there wouldn’t be any Lendlis and no second front in 44. Also, Rommel would have won in Africa. I’m sorry if I sent you your battalion. You don’t see your nose and ambitions
                  1. +1
                    7 July 2013 15: 23
                    Quote: djon77
                    there wouldn’t be a battle for the Atlantic and there wouldn’t be any lendlis


                    Are you REALLY SO ... uh, unfamiliar with reality?

                    do you even know that 60% of deliveries were through Alaska Far East and Siberia?
                    about 20% through Iran, and only the remaining part through Murmansk.
                    and by the way, on these routes the deliveries were WITHOUT LOSS.

                    Well, as for the second front, I think that by the summer of 45 the Red Star tanks would be in the English Channel.
                    so don’t worry, there would be someone to free Europe.
                    1. djon77
                      -1
                      7 July 2013 15: 51
                      and what god did they get into Iran
                      1. 0
                        7 July 2013 16: 14
                        Quote: djon77
                        and what god did they get into Iran


                        how can you talk about lendlis if you don’t know ELEMENTARY things.

                        you drive "lend-lease" into the search and enjoy.
                      2. djon77
                        -2
                        7 July 2013 16: 59
                        how from the usa or from england could materials get into iran. as i understand the shortest way is the atlantic and suez. in geography what was the grade?
                      3. +3
                        7 July 2013 17: 18
                        Quote: djon77
                        how materials from the usa or england could get into iran.



                        you don’t even know how to read, and Google apparently banned you.

                        type in the search "Trans-Iranian route"
                        read. and do not get into the conversation of large uncles.
                    2. Cat
                      0
                      7 July 2013 16: 47
                      Quote: Rider
                      Well, as for the second front, I think that by the summer of 45 the Red Star tanks would be in the English Channel.
                      so don’t worry, there would be someone to free Europe.

                      find at least one veteran who would agree to fight for another month or two, lose a dozen or a hundred friends in battles. Find the kid whose father returned from the war, and tell him: I'm sorry, but your dad will leave again, leave forever - so that after 70 years some woodpecker on some forum could proudly declare: “We made Hitler alone ! "
                      you should go there, in the 45th - and look at your desire to "reach the English Channel." Hero, damn it ...
                      1. +3
                        7 July 2013 19: 14
                        Quote: Cat
                        Find the kid whose father returned from the war, and tell him: I'm sorry, but your dad will leave again, leave forever - so that after 70 years some woodpecker on some forum could proudly declare: “We made Hitler alone ! "


                        exactly for sure.
                        that's exactly what I must say.
                        and even more.
                        I must say so
                        kid!
                        your dad will not go to war (after all, kill her)
                        and his brother will not go, and the neighbor, and the neighbor of the neighbor will not go.
                        THERE ARE NO ONE WILL GO.
                        current your country will now be called protectorate Ost (or whatever)
                        now you don’t need to study, to go to the army too-LEPOTAA.
                        but no one will treat you, and you won’t find a good job
                        and I'm sorry, but you won’t have any grandchildren.
                        because your children will die in a concentration camp.

                        and all because ONE DECADE AFTER 70 years old TOLD THAT WAR IS FIIII, AND WHAT ELSE THERE IS ABOUT THE VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE AND THE TIN OF THE CHILD.


                        Quote: Cat
                        Hero, damn it ...


                        gee gee.
                    3. 0
                      7 July 2013 16: 52
                      Here you have more accurate data

                      Pacific 8244 47,1
                      Trans-Iranian 4160 23,8
                      Arctic 3964 22,6
                      Black Sea 681 3,9
                      Soviet Arctic 452 2,6
                    4. djon77
                      -1
                      7 July 2013 17: 03
                      until the age of 45, red star tanks could go down in history. I simply knew that you were talking about something and knew that out of a hundred shells, some 5 could decide the outcome of the battle. Let's say it’s a land lease of 5%. But imagine these 5 shells weren’t would be at the right time and in the right place, but the enemy has them)))))))))) continue to simulate the situation?))))))))
                      1. +1
                        7 July 2013 18: 15
                        Quote: djon77
                        .but imagine these 5 shells wouldn’t be there, at the right time and in the right place, but the enemy has them)))))))))) continue to simulate the situation?))))))))


                        lets do it !

                        June 41, Operation Sea Lion begins, and the Britons merge into the toilet bowl of history.
                        then the Germans crush them in Egypt and BV.
                        receive Iraqi and Libyan oil
                        Britons are thrown out of India.

                        And FSE!
                        war with the USSR need not !
                        Germany now has oil, living space - at least heaps.
                        Well, then, they can help Japan tear the United States, or postpone it for 10 years.

                        so my fantasy is much richer than yours.
                      2. djon77
                        0
                        7 July 2013 19: 50
                        well yes. so it was
              2. Constantine
                0
                6 July 2013 16: 34
                They said a little lower. You missed the battle for the Atlantic, the bombing of Germany by the Allies - and they were massive, the Pacific Ocean, etc.
                Arfika is resources. And the units connected there and recaptured lands are resources, primarily, which the Germans did not get.
                The Allies had a big plus - they could, taking advantage of the situation, systematically squeeze out the Germans. They had such an opportunity. And they took advantage of it


                Others
                Quote: Pimply
                References, proofs, certificates
              3. djon77
                -4
                7 July 2013 08: 17
                bumpy yes to argue. for anyone they won the Second World War even despite the fact that since 1939 they didn’t fight at all with Germany. That is, for two years the war went on and did not take part at all. By the way, for the last two years the war went on, I brought the numbers of Soviet Union exports to Germany higher from 1939-41. by the way let them be minuscule. show their moral qualities, as well as the inability to accept the truth no matter how bitter it was
            3. 0
              6 July 2013 21: 35
              Quote: Raven1972
              In the end, almost all tanks on the Eastern Front were taken from Rommel

              And what about aviation? How did the Lufwaffe prove to be in Africa?
            4. djon77
              -2
              7 July 2013 15: 04
              but I didn’t think that if Romel didn’t get bogged down, then Moscow would have been taken right on time, and this, as you know, the main railway node of the country was. What do you think would be the scattered resistance of the Soviet troops? As in the first 3 months or worse?
              1. +4
                7 July 2013 15: 13
                Quote: djon77
                but I didn’t think that Romel wouldn’t get bogged down, then Moscow would have been taken


                but didn’t think that the Germans wouldn’t get bogged down in Russia, London would be taken.
                and how would the British then fight and lose their island?
                1. 0
                  7 July 2013 16: 53
                  And this situation is no less likely. The Second World War is not in vain called the Second World War. This is a fairly large ball of events and connections.
          2. Constantine
            +1
            6 July 2013 16: 34
            Look at the supply of gunpowder, metal, products, etc.

            Broke including in Africa, Sicily, the Pacific Ocean.


            Once again, the
            Quote: Pimply
            References, proofs, certificates
            1. -5
              6 July 2013 17: 19
              To begin with, I would like to see the answers to my questions, right?
              1. Constantine
                +4
                6 July 2013 17: 30
                To begin with, I would like to see the answers to my questions, right?


                They answer you. I'm not talking about this post, your mania to demand proofs from everyone in a row, but not to provide your own, has a systemic character. Just demanding them from you is somehow not particularly puzzled. Time has come.
                1. -5
                  6 July 2013 17: 46
                  Don't be puzzled because I provide them. In several languages, if necessary. And the opponents have difficulty in knowing Russian, and are not interested in proving their words.
        3. rolik
          +2
          7 July 2013 00: 32
          Quote: Fin
          Allied supplies were very unevenly distributed over the years of the war. In 1941 — 1942 contingent liabilities were not constantly fulfilled; the situation normalized only from the second half of the 1943 year. Of the promised by England 800 aircraft and 1000 tanks, which the USSR was supposed to receive in October-December 1941, 669 aircraft and 487 tanks were received. From October 1941 to 30 on June 1942, the United States sent 545 planes, 783 tanks to the USSR, 3 more than once less than promised, and 16502 trucks, that is, 5 more than once less than planned.

          I repeat once again. For these deliveries, we have fully paid off - with full gold bars. So, we can say that this was not selfless help, but another making money. Which, in principle, is not surprising. It would be different if all deliveries were free (so to speak, an unselfish contribution to victory).
          And the Allies opened a second front only in order not to let our army go further into Europe. That's all.
      3. semenar
        +9
        6 July 2013 15: 09
        And how many divisions were grind by the Soviet Army, and how many armies of Great Britain and the USA?
        1. -4
          6 July 2013 16: 24
          The losses of the Nazi forces in the USSR / Allies ratios are somewhere around 70% / 30%. And this is natural. The hottest battles were fought on the Eastern Front. But if you take the Japanese?
          1. ramsi
            +2
            6 July 2013 18: 25
            Pimpled (1) 

            The losses of the Nazi forces in the USSR / Allies ratios are somewhere around 70% / 30%. And this is natural. The hottest battles were fought on the Eastern Front. But if you take the Japanese?

            According to Amer’s data, 1219000 dead and wounded + 41000 prisoners
            According to ours, during the operation to destroy the Kwantung army, the Japanese lost about 670000, of which 600000 were captured
        2. +8
          6 July 2013 16: 39
          Quote: semenar
          And how many divisions were grind by the Soviet Army, and how many armies of Great Britain and the USA?
          In this respect, not even a quantitative factor is important, but a qualitative one. Since if we compare the quality of a German soldier of the 40, 41, 42 and 43 years with the German soldiers of the 44 and especially 45 years, the latter will obviously lose ...
          1. -1
            6 July 2013 17: 20
            Definitely, and here you are right.
      4. +5
        6 July 2013 17: 36
        The USA lost 418 people in World War II [000]. The largest losses for the American army were in the Ardennes operation - 1 people were killed. After it, the Norman operation, the Battle of Monte Cassino, the Battle of Iwo Jima and the Battle of Okinawa follow the number of losses. As of 19, 000 American troops are still missing during World War II [2010]. The US National Archives compiled and published lists of all the dead and missing US military [74].
        And this is against ours:
        The human losses of the USSR - 6,3 million soldiers killed and died from wounds, 555 thousand died from diseases, who died as a result of incidents condemned to be shot (according to reports of troops, medical institutions, military tribunals) and 4,5 million who fell into captured and missing [2]. Total demographic losses (including the dead civilian population in the occupied territory and increased mortality in the rest of the USSR from the adversities of the war) - 26,6 million people;
        source "Wikipedia"
        1. -6
          6 July 2013 17: 52
          And nobody argues with this data. For the USSR, the war was much more difficult and bloody than for the USA, England, France, etc. But we are not talking about that.
      5. deviljaga
        +5
        6 July 2013 17: 43
        The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...


        А википедия гласит несколько иное(http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0
        %BE_%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0
        % B9_% D0% B2% D0% BE% D0% B9% D0% BD% D0% B5): US losses - ~ 405 soldiers; USSR losses - ~ 399 soldiers

        Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition?


        During the war, the anti-Hitler coalition actively supplied the Nazis with various resources, since Germany and its allies were poor in various resources, which were abundant in the colonies of the anti-Hitler coalition

        Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans.


        The backbone of fascism was broken in three battles: the Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of the Kursk Bulge and the Battle of the Dnieper. And yet these 3 battles were for "huge-strategic" resources, not rocks in the ocean (the battle at Midway Atoll)
        The second front was opened when the USSR had already conquered all its western territories and began to conquer the rest of Europe, and Great Britain and the USA decided to intervene here.
        1. -4
          6 July 2013 17: 53
          Quote: chertjaga

          During the war, the anti-Hitler coalition actively supplied the Nazis with various resources, since Germany and its allies were poor in various resources, which were abundant in the colonies of the anti-Hitler coalition


          Please provide your sources.

          Quote: chertjaga
          The second front was opened when the USSR had already conquered all its western territories and began to conquer the rest of Europe, and Great Britain and the USA decided to intervene here.


          When did the Second World War begin?
          1. deviljaga
            +3
            6 July 2013 19: 50
            Please provide your sources.


            I do not have such sources
            But my question is: where did Germany take resources during the war that it did not have, nor in the occupation territories?
            By resources we mean, for example. non-ferrous metals
            1. -2
              6 July 2013 20: 43
              Then why do you engage in fictionalism instead of history?
            2. djon77
              -3
              7 July 2013 08: 57
              I wrote above where Germany took these sources
              1. Cheloveck
                +2
                7 July 2013 10: 43
                Quote: djon77
                I wrote above where Germany took these sources

                John, I am always touched by people like you. smile
                What the Soviet Union delivered to Germany is comparable to a drop in the ocean in comparison with the needs of industry.
                Look at the structure and sources of German imports for 39 - 41gg.
                So as not to mess up.
                1. djon77
                  -2
                  7 July 2013 11: 18
                  Well, a drop in the ocean)))))))))) besides your words, I did not see your words confirmation. if I gave the exact data, then you did not provide anything except for the next air shock.
                  1. 3 inches.
                    +1
                    7 July 2013 17: 00
                    Yes, no proof is necessary to him. This is from the breed of rebels against the bloody gebni and communism. They don’t have any facts. There is a Russian proverb, ssy in the eye and he is all God's dew.
      6. +3
        6 July 2013 18: 45
        Quote: professor
        Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans. Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition? The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...


        Professor, I'm afraid you exaggerate the role of the Allies in the victory over Germany. During WWII, the British fought before landing in Normandy, mainly in Africa. But the number of troops engaged by them in the struggle against a relatively small German-Italian contingent was small - not much more than the expeditionary forces of England deployed in France in 1940. On the Italian front, the allied forces were again far from the most numerous.
        The Western Front is another story altogether. The quality of the German troops fighting there was assessed by the Germans as extremely low. The bulk of the units was only formed, and their L / C mainly consisted of young youths, persons previously not recruited for health reasons, and adults (over 40). In this respect, the Italian Front, which was held by the more experienced units of the Wehrmacht and the SS, is indicative - the Allies were not able to break through it.
        Even the losses of the victorious countries say that it was the USSR that made the highest contribution to the victory - out of about 30 million of our citizens who died, more than 8 million accounted for by military personnel. Again, in terms of the number of troops involved in the hostilities of the USSR, it significantly exceeded the forces of the allies.
        I acknowledge the merits of the Americans and the British in the supply of material resources - it really was a help, especially at the initial stage, when many plants were destroyed. In addition, it was the Yankees who defeated the Japanese Navy, and the British significantly thinned the German Navy, and patted the Luftwaffe, BUT the main merit in the victory over fascism belongs to the USSR.
        1. -2
          6 July 2013 20: 45
          Rather, you underestimate the impact of the Pacific War or the allied air strikes on Germany. What, again, does not sweep away the tremendous efforts that the USSR made for the victory, the sacrifices that he made, and the role he played.
        2. +2
          6 July 2013 21: 51
          Not everything is so simple on the Western Front: stationary infantry divisions were really weak, but the tank group in France was the strongest (up to 2200 vehicles - 30% of the fleet), including the elite 1 and 2 SS CCs.
        3. -3
          7 July 2013 08: 23
          Quote: Blackgrifon
          BUT the main merit in the victory over fascism belongs to the USSR.

          Is there a debate about this? The Soviet Union did not defeat the Nazis alone, and that’s it.
      7. 0
        6 July 2013 21: 13
        Mostly in fights with the Japs. Does the figure of 28 million tell you anything?
      8. 0
        6 July 2013 23: 23
        And they don’t tell you at schools on what front your first president fired a machine gun? And where was it?
      9. 0
        7 July 2013 02: 00
        The main losses of amers were on the Pacific front, but neither as nor on the West.
      10. +1
        7 July 2013 04: 02
        Professor
        Damn ... well, you're smart ... well, will you also begin to say that the American contribution is decisive? Or at least equal? And what did Americans lose 600 on the European Theater? And the main thing is not how much they lost, but in what exactly and how they achieved, who exactly broke the Nazi ridge ..... at least kill, I think that you blurted it out of harm or just like that ... to look at our reaction ..... Professor, no one doubts that you are a very intelligent and knowledgeable person .... but, damn it, we are all very curious that she made you make such statements ... ..and?
        1. 0
          7 July 2013 08: 25
          Quote: smile
          Well, will you also begin to say that the American contribution is decisive? Or at least equal?

          I will not start. The USSR made a decisive contribution to the victory over fascism as part of the anti-Hitler coalition.
      11. 0
        7 July 2013 05: 21
        Quote: professor
        Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans. Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition? The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...


        Just for clarity, not 600, but 000 405 people (and this is 399% less than you indicated, which is significant)
        Poland’s losses, for example, 425. But for some reason you didn’t remember about them.
      12. +1
        7 July 2013 07: 46
        And not 400000? 16 million were mobilized with a population of 131 million.
      13. 0
        7 July 2013 09: 02
        Quote: professor
        Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...

        Please correct the figure, about a third, in minus!
        I didn’t notice this before for you, interpretation of events is your own business, but you don’t need to play with numbers.
        And try to terrify the loss, too, is not necessary, a bad tone in my opinion.
        1. +2
          7 July 2013 09: 27
          Quote: Cynic
          Please correct the figure, about a third, in minus!

          Already done this and admitted his non-attentiveness.

          Quote: professor
          You are right, I recalled from memory the number of wounded 600000 instead of those who died, while 405,399 American soldiers (416,800 including 9500 transport fleet sailors) and 5600 American citizens died (450,670 according to other sources).
      14. +1
        7 July 2013 12: 43
        You see, professor, Americans, and in the First World War, managed to lose a lot of soldiers, despite the short duration of the action.
      15. Airman
        0
        7 July 2013 19: 54
        Quote: professor
        Actually, the ridge of fascism was broken together with the same British and Americans. Have you been taught at school about the anti-Hitler coalition? The same Americans lost 600000 of their soldiers ...

        And we are 35 times more, including civilians. There was no war in the United States.
        1. -1
          7 July 2013 21: 26
          For objectivity - they could just wait for the result and agree with the winner ... And our losses are not a matter of pride (rather, sorrow and inability to organize military operations)
      16. beech
        0
        7 July 2013 22: 45
        too many zeros, do not you think?
        and I’ll say this about their contribution to the defeat of the Fritz: there is such a saying: whoever gets into the fray last boasts the most!
        One can argue on this subject for a long time, but I consider the real contribution of the Yankees and scammers to be minimal ... what are several broken divisions in Africa and several dozen in Europe against hundreds destroyed in the Stalingrad environment, on the fields of the Kursk arc, in the Caucasus ... !! !
      17. The comment was deleted.
    3. +9
      6 July 2013 09: 39
      To begin with, neither the report itself, nor the report of Kholopov on the basis of this report, allegedly drawn up by anyone, could not be found, so believing or not believing in this article is a personal matter.
      And here is a memo on close anti-tank warfare of 1944 for German soldiers - "elegant with slanting surfaces is the most dangerous. We must recognize Churchill by the multitude of small rollers on vertical surfaces. He is pathetic ...
      This is the question of the English industrial culture.
      1. 0
        6 July 2013 10: 38
        Yegorchik Yuri Pasholok laid out American reports
        1. +1
          6 July 2013 17: 12
          About how no one can find the original American report, and Pasholok laid out? Maybe you can take a closer look and these are all the words written from someone’s words, and not the American report, the amers themselves could not open in their archives.
      2. Avenger711
        +3
        6 July 2013 20: 09
        The culture was at a high level, there was no tank building school. That is, understanding what kind of tank is needed, as a result, all sorts of "Churchillies" appear that are good for service in peacetime.
      3. +1
        7 July 2013 13: 23
        There was one more. Nevertheless managed and on it
    4. aviator46
      -3
      8 July 2013 21: 53
      Collect brains in a bunch of "patriot" and do not drive a blizzard ...
      The British fought with the Germans, when two "mustachioed" with might and main twisted love and shared Europe.
      And the Americans fought with the Japanese from Australia to India, throughout the Pacific ... and with the Germans in Africa and Europe ...
      Moreover, they supplied the USSR, without which the Red Army would have rolled back to the Urals - do not go to a fortuneteller.
      70% of gunpowder, 50% of shells .. thousands of tons of food .. etc., this is LendLiz.
  2. +8
    6 July 2013 07: 53
    There are suspicions that strongly believing in the allies and not wanting to deploy the production lines of their equipment by the foreign countries, the T34 tank was ordered to show, but not in a very good way. those. break so that the mosquito does not undermine the nose.
    On the other hand, any technique is a compromise between everything. And do not forget who made these tanks? schoolchildren from 14 years old, working more than 10 hours a day. Quality will naturally be lame in this case, because the tanks were also sent at the most difficult (!) Moment of the war for the country.
    1. -3
      6 July 2013 09: 30
      Seeing the Germans, the T-34 was also afraid to show in all its glory.
    2. -1
      6 July 2013 09: 55
      There are suspicions that strongly believing in the allies and not wanting to deploy the production lines of their equipment by the foreign countries, the T34 tank was ordered to show, but not in a very good way. those. break so that the mosquito does not undermine the nose.

      what stupidity
    3. Roll
      +4
      6 July 2013 12: 49
      angry Here's an interesting nuance, tank crews getting 5 days from the factory spent on tightening all the nuts, since the boys and women could only put them in and turn them a couple of turns, and the quality of welding, as a welder, as well as a turner, a profession requires qualifications, year at least.
      1. 0
        7 July 2013 09: 08
        Quote: Rolm
        tank crews getting the same from the factory for 5 days spent on tightening all the nuts,

        Source ?
        1. +1
          7 July 2013 13: 03
          Quote: Cynic
          Quote: Rolm
          tank crews getting the same from the factory for 5 days spent on tightening all the nuts,

          Source ?
          In the internet in bulk. Horseless were sent for tanks to the factory. The task is to help assemble your tank. Feeding, of course, at rear standards, so faster back. Since then. True, one plus sign was drawn, factory mechvody, front-line taught the high-pressure fuel pump to wind up (nafig nafig, speed drives!), And they themselves molted to the front with them, by all rights and falsehoods. wink
    4. +6
      6 July 2013 18: 38
      and nevertheless, the Germans and Americans respected the T-34. He showed himself well in battles.
      And the Shermans could not even fight with light tanks. It is only in American computer games that Shermans destroy tigers and Panthers with one shot
      Stop throwing yourself mud! Americans are even proud of dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, while we ourselves denigrate our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. It turns out that the T-34 is bad, without the USA the USSR would have done nothing at all, and such nonsense.
      It was the USSR that took Berlin, although the British and Americans were closer to it from Normandy. Yes, and on Normandy they almost suffered a defeat.
      1. 0
        6 July 2013 20: 48
        No one says the T-34 is bad. Just idiocy about the bad Sherman who successfully fought including in the USSR - this is illiteracy.
        1. rolik
          +2
          7 July 2013 01: 35
          Quote: Pimply
          Just idiocy about the bad Shermans,

          But let me answer in the style of opponents who had all the best only from America ....
          Tank Sherman was a real go ... but. And that's it, that's all the evidence))))))
          1. 0
            7 July 2013 08: 34
            Did you conclude this from personal experience? Specialists from Kubinka have a different opinion on this matter, and Emcha veteran tankers liked it.
          2. 0
            7 July 2013 11: 49
            Nice person. Yes you are stubborn. Here I’m something of people who say that everything from America is all the best, I don’t see. Here your opponents say that you need to carefully evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of technology. Well, for you, everything from America is all but. Great air shaker, you know.
        2. 0
          7 July 2013 06: 06
          Quote: Pimply
          Just idiocy about the bad Sherman who successfully fought including in the USSR - this is illiteracy.

          Here, in my opinion, it was already necessary to arm Sherman so that he would hold at least a shot.
          1. Cat
            +1
            7 July 2013 07: 04
            Quote: ShadowCat
            Here, in my opinion, it was already necessary to arm Sherman so that he would hold at least a shot.


            It is clear that the Sherman had its own shortcomings - however, just like the T-34, and any other tank. As for the armor - the T-34 has a 45/60 ° forehead, Sherman's 51/56 °, almost one to one. The first Shermans went to the USSR from 1942, massively from 1943. The main anti-tank gun of the Germans at that time was the Pak 40 - which, in most cases, easily sewed either the T-34 or the Sherman head-on. So talking about "cardboard" Shermans' booking is not serious.
            1. 0
              7 July 2013 08: 41
              Quote: Cat
              The main German anti-tank gun at that time was Pak 40 - which in most cases without problems was sewn into the forehead of the T-34 and Sherman.

              You correctly noticed, from the 43rd. That's just developed 34ka in 39-40m to withstand the massively accepted all over the world, and even more so in the most likely adversary 37mm Pak 36, which 34ka successfully resisted.
              Of course, the armor won this round in the battle between the shell and the armor, and even the subsequent release of 50mm Pak38 did not bring tangible advantages to the Germans, and only with the release of Pak40 the shell again prevailed with its slaughter power.
              But again, work began on the new IS-2 tank, as well as increased production of new 34oks - the T-34-85 which were also better armored due to new types of armor (the fact that the T34 is still modified is no secret )
              At the same time, the Shermans allies had to cover with sandbags or fill the forehead with concrete to improve armor protection. (http://topwar.ru/30382-dopolnitelnaya-zaschita-amerikanskoy-bronetehniki-rerayt
              .html) already from the 41st year the industry also had something in a hurry to be fixed.
              I'm not saying that 34ka was an epic. No, that is not true. Yes, she had problems with the gearbox, with amenities. But at the same time, the designers did what the tank was needed at the time of its creation - the frontal projection should withstand the shells of the enemy.
              1. +4
                7 July 2013 10: 46
                Quote: ShadowCat
                only with the release of the pack40 shell again prevailed with its destructive power

                Pak-40 was heavy, had poorly calculated angles of extension of the bipod of the beds, as a result of which, after 2-3 shots, these beds could only be pulled out with a tractor.
                It turned out like with a "menagerie": powerful and high-tech (and expensive to manufacture) products, designed and manufactured by qualified specialists, were not moderately agile and maneuverable.
                1. 0
                  7 July 2013 13: 06
                  Did you see her in your eyes? In Moscow, in the park of the 30th anniversary of Victory, near the Yuzhnaya metro station, the PAK-38/40 has been preserved. Compare it with our ZIS-3
                  1. +3
                    7 July 2013 13: 21
                    Quote: kirpich
                    Ah, you saw her in the eye

                    Saw.
                    Compare.

                    Mellentin (it seems) said that the entire history of the Wehrmacht’s anti-tank artillery is the saddest page of World War II.

                    Did you make any conclusions?
              2. 0
                7 July 2013 11: 58
                All this is the modernization of existing models to the conditions of the current battle. Nobody replaced the tanks, and modernization was possible only in new models, and had to fight in conditions of distribution, for example, of Faust cartridges. You looked, why sandbags hung on Shermans?
                1. +1
                  7 July 2013 13: 26
                  Against the faust cartridges, which, by the way, were not held by any tank of that time, they used new tactics. Considering that it had no sighting range (at the range of 30m), therefore, it could only be used in the city. In the city, tanks were used as support. those. they followed the infantry, supporting them with fire and destroying the enemy's fortified positions.

                  Quote: Pimply
                  You looked, why sandbags hung on Shermans?

                  To have at least some protection from the fire of the German menagerie, as well as the Faustpatrons. The last reason for the imperfection of the tactics of the Yankees left their tanks without infantry cover.
                  1. 0
                    7 July 2013 16: 54
                    Quote: ShadowCat

                    To have at least some protection from the fire of the German menagerie, as well as the Faustpatrons. The last reason for the imperfection of the tactics of the Yankees left their tanks without infantry cover.

                    You can read more, preferably with links. 8)
                    1. 0
                      7 July 2013 17: 17
                      brought, read.
                      Also very often, the American marines let the Shermans go far ahead without the support of the infantry, which also played into the hands of the Japanese
                      1. 0
                        7 July 2013 18: 39
                        Too generalized information. The Marines worked mainly on the islands, with a minimum of development. In such conditions, Soviet tanks often operated without infantry support. You summarized all American tactics here, starting from one statement.
          2. 0
            7 July 2013 11: 50
            Please link.
            1. -1
              7 July 2013 12: 02
              Quote: Pimply
              Please link.

              Or maybe you dear, give a link in which the magpie is characterized as mobile and maneuverable?
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              these beds could only be pulled out by a tractor.

              I met the same thing somewhere, but I can’t vouch for a conversation about this particular gun.
              hi
              1. +4
                7 July 2013 12: 31
                Quote: Cynic
                I met the same thing somewhere, but I can’t vouch for a conversation about this particular gun.


                A. Isaev. "Ten Myths about the Second World War" - there it is spelled out
              2. 0
                7 July 2013 12: 39
                Take the answers aside?
              3. +1
                7 July 2013 13: 58
                Quote: Cynic
                I met the same thing somewhere, but I can’t vouch for a conversation about this particular gun.

                This is about ZIS-2, "Death to the enemy, p-and-p-e-ts calculation"
            2. 0
              7 July 2013 13: 18
              http://topwar.ru/30382-dopolnitelnaya-zaschita-amerikanskoy-bronetehniki-rerayt
              .html
        3. +1
          7 July 2013 13: 29
          Quote: Pimply
          No one says the T-34 is bad. Just idiocy about the bad Sherman who successfully fought including in the USSR - this is illiteracy.
          Funny photo! This is when "fireflies" were supplied to the USSR under Lend-Lease? laughing
          1. +1
            7 July 2013 13: 48
            Incidentally, I advise opponents of "emchi": Loza "Tankman in a foreign car" Cool tank was, second place in production, after thirty-four. A bad car is not replicated like that.
          2. 0
            7 July 2013 17: 01
            According to American data, 4063 M4A2 tanks (with a power plant of two General Motors 6046 diesels) of different variants (M4A2 - 1990 units, M4A2 (76) W with a 76 mm long-barreled gun M1 - 2073 units) and two tanks were delivered to the Soviet Union M4A4.
  3. Hudo
    +12
    6 July 2013 09: 07
    Build quality, it is of course quality. I just would like to ask a number of questions to the testers at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. Was the American worker well fed? Was there a roof over his loom and were bombs falling on top? What can he say about the possible quality of American tanks, if half-starved teenagers working 12 hours a day are assigned to the machines?
    1. +1
      6 July 2013 09: 27
      The main problems of the T-34 are associated with the engine (the ugly Pomon air filter, which was eating up the resource and horsepower) and the transmission (a primitive four-speed motorcycle gearbox, without constant engagement of clutches + poorly selected gear ratios), and hungry workers have nothing to do with it.
      1. +4
        6 July 2013 09: 55
        Well, let's say our filter was later replaced by "Cyclone" and the Americans, if they were so smart, could wash it more often during tests, and that's the trouble.
        1. +1
          6 July 2013 11: 13
          Really. Flush the filters (especially on the march conveniently) or remove them altogether, in the fuel tanks instead of diesel fuel carry oil and drive all the time in second gear - that’s all. Only then do not be surprised at losses of 30-40% for technical reasons after each transition.
    2. 0
      6 July 2013 18: 42
      all the same, the Shermans lost the characteristics of German tanks, took only in numbers. Americans won more due to aviation, erasing entire cities from the face of the Earth
      1. 0
        6 July 2013 20: 48
        Examples. Against which tanks they lost, in which cases they were taken only in numbers.
  4. +5
    6 July 2013 09: 15
    Evacuation of industry inland, lack of skilled labor, and at the same time an increase in the number of produced tanks, good tanks! It can be called a miracle, but we must always remember that the Soviet people did this miracle!
    Everything for the front, everything for the Victory! Here is the main grain of this miracle!
  5. +15
    6 July 2013 09: 35
    That's right - and in some places shitty welding, rough machining, and trucks were torn, and transmissions were strewed. But most importantly, they reached Berlin.
    Again, in 1942, production was only being debugged. Model 1944 tanks broke down much less frequently, while carrying more armor and a heavier turret.
    Yes, by the way, the Panthers, with their vaunted German quality, when they first began to produce them in 1943, were more out of order due to breakdowns than as a result of hostilities - at times.
    1. +3
      6 July 2013 10: 04
      The quality of the weld was very different on different machines of even one batch, so just amers didn’t get a good option. Here's the order: summer 41.
      1. -1
        6 July 2013 12: 47
        Quote: Egorchik
        The quality of the weld was very different on different machines, even of one batch, so just amers didn’t get a good option
        It is worth remembering that the tanks for sending to the Americans were SPECIALLY selected and assembled as part of a small batch, from which the units for sending were then specifically selected ... So, we can draw a not very comforting conclusion that the quality of the bulk of our tanks was even lower ...
        1. +1
          7 July 2013 09: 17
          Quote: svp67
          tanks for shipment to the Americans were SPECIALLY selected and assembled as part of a small batch, from which units for shipment were then specifically selected ...

          Hmm, you can interpret in different ways.
          The whole question is what selection criterion was applied!
          And yet, at that time the USSR was interested in the supply of any equipment and it was not easy to demonstrate its perfection.
      2. shpuntik
        +2
        6 July 2013 21: 26
        Yegorchik Today, 10:04 ↑
        The quality of the weld was very different on different machines of even one batch, so just amers didn’t get a good option.

        Igor, here’s photo rating, is not unique ...
        The quality of the seam, in the base, is "penetration", absence of voids, etc. Determined by fluoroscopy, ultrasound usually. On the outside of the seam, you can see the experience of the welder, how he evenly, according to "science" puts the seam.
        What I see in the picture: it's just not a cleaned seam, multi-layered, reinforced; poor quality cannot be judged.
        Example: according to our standards, the seams on the ships were not cleaned, the scale was knocked off and that's it. Well, if, of course, the "snot" hangs, about which you can get hurt, catch, then of course it was removed with a grinder. The Entente has its own standards, they demanded from our shipbuilders to clean all the seams with a mill. Well, this is additional labor input.
    2. +4
      6 July 2013 10: 08
      And this is the summer of 45 years.
    3. +2
      6 July 2013 10: 10
      Summer 43 years.
  6. +4
    6 July 2013 09: 49
    The T-34 was constantly being improved, by the end of the war it was different as the T-72 was different from the T-90, it became more reliable and more powerful, heavier and faster, the dry transmission was replaced with a liquid one, which increased its engine life, the engine was boosted, the engine was delivered a new turret and a cannon, observation instruments were improved, and much more, but this was already in the year 44, and at 42 the tank was really not very good.
    1. +6
      6 July 2013 13: 42
      Quote: cth; fyn
      The T-34 was constantly improving, by the end of the war it was different just like the T-72 was different from the T-90,

      Colleague, hi ! I’ll add that it’s still not complete on the topic of the article: General Ilyichev made conclusions from the report of his assistant: in the 1943, the T-34 model was improved and equipped with a new 85 mm caliber gun. This was not the only improvement: the air filters, gearbox, armor and tower, which became much more spacious, were modernized.
      After that, the T-34 became one of the best tanks of the Second World War. Only the German Panther model was, according to foreign experts, (well, they’re Western wink ), even better. The T-34 was more powerful than the German Tiger, more armor-piercing than the American Sherman and faster than the British Churchill. Many tanks of the T-34-85 type took part in hostilities in the Balkans half a century after the end of World War II. It is said that several dozen cars still remain in good condition - in North Korea.
      1. -1
        6 July 2013 14: 41
        85 appeared in the 44th year already. At 43 was the T-34-76.
        1. 0
          6 July 2013 15: 08
          In 43, in my opinion, a nut-shaped tower was started to be installed.
          1. +3
            6 July 2013 15: 34
            Quote: cth; fyn
            In 43, in my opinion, a nut-shaped tower was started to be installed.
            Already in the 42nd, the "nut" was installed on tanks, which could immediately determine from where the tanks came from the Urals (with the "nut") or from the Volga (with the "pie")
      2. +3
        6 July 2013 21: 04
        Quote: Tersky
        Only the German model of Panther was, according to foreign experts, (well, that’s why they are Western), even better.

        One on one, on a flat hard terrain - yes. On a plowed field, wet with rains, you still need to see the mobility and patency of the T-34 were better, and tanks rarely fought on asphalt.
        But the main thing is that while the Germans collected 1 Panther, the Urals produced 6 T-34s (if I’m not mistaken, I could forget it, or maybe the comparison went over the Tigers). Comparison by man-hours. And the six of T-34s and Panther, and the Tiger will be buried with a guarantee, even if they lose half of them.
      3. rolik
        +3
        7 July 2013 02: 07
        Quote: Tersky
        . It is said that several dozen cars still remain in good condition - in North Korea.

        And here, by the way, comments, the Americans on the war of North Korea against the South.
        The first shocking news of the invasion of South Korea reported the terrible defeat inflicted by such Reds. To the Americans, who remember the glory of Patton’s triumphant tank attacks through France and Germany, this seems incredible. Then came reports that the missiles of our obsolete bazookas bounced off the attacking tanks, like ordinary bullets. It soon became clear that the North Koreans were equipped with fast, durable Russian T-34s, weapons that should force the United States to look for new ways to counter enemy armored vehicles.
        The truth is that we were taken by surprise. Five years of reasoning in a peacetime economy led to the fact that in the United States new improved tanks exist only on paper and in trials. And in the Far East there is not a single worthy tank to throw it in a sudden and decisive battle. Will the American military adviser, who said that the tanks are not suitable there, be able to explain his mistake or not, and the United States now has to fight more powerful enemy tanks.
        What can we answer? At the Aberdeen training ground, Maryland, last week, a photographer and a LIFE reporter saw the T-34 (see photo), surpassing the American tanks Pershing and Sherman, which are now sending to our retreating and enemy-pursued divisions in Korea. The Russian army, learned the lessons of the Second World War and has a huge army armed with a T-34 and a heavy tank Joseph Stalin III. And we console ourselves with the fact that we were able to send only a few improved M-46 Pattons to the west, while other experimental models of tanks did not even reach the production stage.

        Last week, an American T-34 driver in Aberdeen wiped his face and said, "This little Russian model won't wait for anyone." Our fighters in Korea, who also know this, are looking forward to the arrival of the Pattons, or whatever we have projects.
        1. +1
          7 July 2013 13: 28
          Good picture.
          Without it, it is not clear why the "small Russian model".
          What a plain T34ka it is.
          And what is spectacular on pedestals.
  7. MAG
    +3
    6 July 2013 10: 09
    This article was already on military review about 2 years ago and then it was deployed.
  8. +10
    6 July 2013 10: 10
    One thing is interesting to me ... and with what did they compare the T34? With "high speed" Matildas? Perfect Churchill? Or "miracle" of technology M3 Grant aka Lee who was the same age and class as T34 ?? M4 production was just unfolding ... but about the comparison of KV-in general, the question is ... what was it difficult for them there ??
  9. GEO
    GEO
    +11
    6 July 2013 10: 25
    Quote: professor
    Quote: duke
    most likely old men, women and teenagers worked there, unlike American factories, where there was no such force majeure

    And in American factories, women stood up to the machines while their husbands and brothers freed Europe, Africa and the Far East.

    and how many of those husbands and brothers fought?
    Goleted advertising.
    1. -10
      6 July 2013 10: 49
      Quote: GEO
      and how many of those husbands and brothers fought ?.

      Approximately 16 million men and women served in the US Military during WW 2.
      11 million. Out of them, 7 million were sent to the army. 671,485 US Soldiers were wounded and 450,670 US soldiers died.
      TOTAL NUMBER IN UNITED STATES FORCES DURING WW2
      ARMY: 8,300,000
      NAVY: 4,204,662
      MARINES: 599,693
      GRAND TOTAL: 13,104,355
      TOTAL US CASUALTIES:
      ARMY:
      KILLED IN ACTION: 223,215
      WOUNDED: 571,679
      MISSING: 12,752
      TOTAL ARMY CASULITES: 807,646
      NAVY:
      KILLED IN ACTION: 34,702
      DIED OF WOUNDS: 1,783
      OTHER DEATHS: 26,793
      TOTAL NAVY DEATHS: 63,278
      WOUNDED: 33,670
      MISSING: 28
      TOTAL NAVY CASUALTIES: 96,976
      MARINES
      KILLED IN ACTION: 15,460
      DIED OF WOUNDS: 3,163
      OTHER DEATHS: 5,863
      TOTAL MARINE DEATHS: 24,486
      WOUNDED: 67,134
      TOTAL MARINE CAUALTIES: 91,620
      GRAND TOTAL KILLED IN ACTION IN ARMY, NAVY, MARINES 273,377
      DIED OF WOUNDS LATER: 4,946
      OTHER DEATHS: 32,656
      TOTAL DEATHS: 310,979
      MISSING: 12,780
      WOUNDED: 672,483
      GRAND TOTAL CASUALTIES IN ARMY, NAVY, MARINES: 996,242
      (AIR FORCES ARE INCLUDED IN THE ABOVE BRANCHES. US COAST Guard HAD 172,952 MEN ENGAGED, 1,917 DEATHS OF WHICH 572 WERE KILLED IN ACTION.)
      THIS DATA IS FROM MY ALL TIME FAVORITE BOOK "THE COMPLETE HISTORY OF WWII" ARMED SERVICES MEMORIAL EDITION, CO. 1945 1948

      Quote: Fin
      When we bleed the allies were not in a hurry. Yes, they helped, there are no questions, but there is no need to exaggerate.
      I can’t find anything about 600 thousand losses anywhere, everywhere they write 400 thousand FOR 2 MV.
      I always read your posts with interest, but here somehow I haven’t woken up.

      You are right, I recalled the number of wounded 600000 instead of those who died, but 405,399 American soldiers (416,800 including 9500 sailors of the transport fleet) and 5600 American citizens (according to other 450,670 data) died. Are the Americans in a hurry? They fought since December of the 1941 year.

      Yes, the ridge was also broken in Africa where the Nazis held not small forces that could otherwise send to the Eastern Front.
      1. ed65b
        +13
        6 July 2013 11: 22
        Professor don’t mock us. We know who won the war. We know who liberated Europe, who took Berlin. Just a toad strangling you.
        1. -19
          6 July 2013 11: 25
          Quote: ed65b
          Professor don’t mock us. We know who won the war. We know who liberated Europe, who took Berlin. Just a toad strangling you.

          The anti-Hitler coalition won the war, it also liberated Europe from fascism, Soviet troops took Berlin.
          1. +16
            6 July 2013 11: 46
            Quote: professor
            The anti-Hitler coalition won the war, it also liberated Europe from fascism, Soviet troops took Berlin.

            It's really painful for me to read how the anti-Hitler coalition liberated Europe ... The contribution of the USSR to the victory was much greater than all the allies put together and for me it was like we were sitting on a bull, we plowed.
            1. -16
              6 July 2013 12: 07
              Quote: feanor
              It's really painful for me to read how the anti-Hitler coalition liberated Europe ... The contribution of the USSR to the victory was much greater than all the allies put together and for me it was like we were sitting on a bull, we plowed.

              That is why the bull in Tehran met with their flies, tearfully asking them to harness actively ...
              1. Fin
                +11
                6 July 2013 12: 25
                Quote: professor
                That is why the bull in Tehran met with their flies, tearfully asking them to harness actively ...

                Did you see his tears?
                Or should he say do not worry, will I manage myself? But what about the coalition, of the great significance of which you are telling everyone?

                Quote: professor
                At the end of 1939, a repair base for German ships was founded near Murmansk, in the spring of 1940, its ships participated in the aggression against Norway. The base actually operated before the start of the war between Germany and the USSR.

                Is this possible in more detail? I want to get acquainted.
                1. andsavichev2012
                  0
                  6 July 2013 12: 35
                  From-in "AST" series "Unknown Wars", "," War in the Arctic ", 2010 or 11. There is about it.
                  The base was emergency, then converted into a weather station. In the summer of 42nd ours found her and reset her. And the Germans built it quietly, during mapping, commissioned by owls. pr-va, north coast
                  1. +2
                    7 July 2013 09: 26
                    Quote: professor
                    The history of cooperation between the USSR and the Third Reich in 1939-1940, or what the authors of the "reference" of the Russian Foreign Ministry kept silent about

                    About the phrase
                    I brought you peace
                    recall and how it all ended for Europe too?
                  2. +2
                    7 July 2013 14: 15
                    You would better talk about the cooperation of American corporations with German companies from 1930 to 1845.
                    And guess why there were no shuttle raids on some factories of fascist Germany. And better talk about it.
                    Who, for example, supplied gunpowder to Germany.
                    Chrome, nickel from South Africa and South America.

                    It was a very strange war.
                    There were very strange 10 years before her., 1418 days of war, and another strange 140 days.
                    1. +1
                      7 July 2013 15: 35
                      Quote: dustycat
                      And guess why there were no shuttle raids on some factories of fascist Germany.


                      I recently came across

                      On September 5, a prominent leader of the Conservative Party Leopold Emery, the former first lord of the Admiralty, made a similar proposal (to bomb the German FORESTS). Struck by the legal illiteracy of his party member, Sir Kingsley indignantly declared: “What you are, this is impossible, THIS IS THE PRIVATE PROPERTY. You still ask me to bomb the Ruhr »294 {}

                      Well, and here it is:Attempts to push the Allied aircraft to real hostilities were vigilantly suppressed. Chamberlain’s government minister of aviation was Sir Kingsley Wood, a lawyer by training, formulating the following three principles for using the British Air Force:

                      1. Intentional bombing of civilians is excluded.

                      2. Aviation attacks only military targets.

                      3. At the same time, pilots must be careful to avoid bombing any cluster of civilians {291}.


                      taken - I. Pykhalov Great slandered war
                      (in parentheses are references to the source of documents)

                      Let me remind you that this happens during the German invasion of Poland.
                      when both England and France ALREADY DECLARED THE WAR OF GERMANY.

                      delivers their applications for the use of bomber aircraft.
                      especially when compared with their tactics in 44-45gg.
                    2. 0
                      7 July 2013 17: 03
                      Let us recall the cooperation of the USSR with the Third Reich. American corporations collaborated on a private level (and from a certain point they were persecuted for such cooperation), while the USSR collaborated on a state basis.
                      1. +1
                        7 July 2013 18: 06
                        Eugene, this is what touches me the most:
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Let us recall the cooperation of the USSR with the Third Reich

                        And let's remember that such agreements were with the 3rd Reich and the Nagulia and France and the United States? And a reasonable question arises - why can they, and we can not? Can you explain to me? In addition, we did not fight with Germany until 41 g, so what is the reason for us to violate the agreement, i.e. if the Germans did not violate them?
                        Further, all of your impudent Saxons and Gauls first leaked quietly to Adolf Aloizievich ALL Europe, thereby pushing me to the war with the USSR, and I have to value and respect them for something? All of their Lend-Lease is just a way to cash in on the war - such as help in a war that they themselves unleashed ... For me, so LITTLE they got from Hitler on the head for their tricks am
                      2. -4
                        7 July 2013 18: 41
                        There were. And I remember them very well. Dear, I don’t need to arrange a kindergarten here and justify cooperation with the Nazis. All who collaborated with them - one way or another then they paid their price a hundredfold. I mean, in politics, there are no clean hands, and trying to dirty others, you must first look at yourself.
                      3. +2
                        7 July 2013 19: 01
                        Quote: Pimply
                        you must first look at yourself.

                        Should we be afraid of our past, has it been sold and sold with great success and will be sold for a long time?
                        We strive for tolerance!
                        And no bloody boys in the eyes!
                        How long ?
                      4. -1
                        7 July 2013 20: 12
                        You? To tolerance? Do not make me laugh.
                      5. +1
                        7 July 2013 19: 02
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I mean, in politics, there are no clean hands, and trying to dirty others, you must first look at yourself.

                        So let them look at YOURSELF before nodding in our direction ...
                      6. -4
                        7 July 2013 20: 32
                        Tell me, who is there nodding? The article deals with a simple analysis of the advantages and disadvantages of the T-34 tank at a certain point in history in the United States? Pros, cons - the usual technical assessment. Instead, we get a wave of cries of cheers, hysteria about the fact that the USSR itself would have overwhelmed everyone, some kind of nonsense about the fact that the Allies generally traded with the Germans and almost fought on their side in the war. You will not say what kind of nonsense?
                      7. +1
                        7 July 2013 20: 49
                        Quote: Pimply
                        what nonsense?

                        At least about I.G. FARBENINDUSTRI (Interressengemeinschaft Farbenindustrie AG) read, very useful.
                        Everyone knows about the Cyclone-B developer, less mustard about the authors, and nobody wants to know that it was a multinational corporation!
                      8. -1
                        7 July 2013 21: 21
                        I know. And how many international corporations participated in this. And how many companies in the same West made money from this. And I also remember about collaborators in different countries. I just don't understand what it has to do with it. I'm just trying to convey the idea that history already exists, it took place, and that it should be assessed without shouting "ah! We would have fenced everyone here ourselves!" The first couple of years of the Second World War show that no.
                      9. 0
                        7 July 2013 21: 31
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I know

                        Excuse me, but are you several or what?
                        Before that it is said by you (?)
                        Quote: Pimply
                        some nonsense about the fact that the Allies generally traded with the Germans and almost fought on their side in the war. You will not say what kind of nonsense?

                        request
                      10. 0
                        7 July 2013 22: 39
                        Galimatia. Because it was not the allies, who were trading at the official level, they had been in the war with Germany since the 39th year. Traded individual concerns. There was no state cooperation. Is the difference clear?
                        You can’t say that the whole Soviet people were a traitor because there was an army of Vlasov and bastards who went to the police
                      11. 0
                        9 July 2013 18: 21
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Traded individual concerns. There was no state cooperation. Is the difference clear?

                        You forgot to mention _ among themselves, III Reich did not nationalize the means of production.
                        Yes, and traded rather through third countries.
                        Only here to argue that the state has nothing to do with, at least myopic.
                        Traded not seeds, traded strategic materials and the state did not know this?
                        At one time, there was information about the Wehrmacht using the English license for the manufacture of fuses, with a deduction for every one made!
                        Yusovtsy on their flying fortresses set Zeiss sights! They did not suit theirs.
                        This is just a business, nothing personal!
                  3. +2
                    7 July 2013 15: 07

                    The history of cooperation between the USSR and the Third Reich in 1939-1940


                    Well, vaabcheto, the source you provided is very biased, and biased.

                    he interprets known events from only one side.

                    and I recall in 39-40gg, the USSR and Germany were on friendly terms, and it’s stupid to blame the USSR for having EXTENDED half of Europe.
                    since having concluded an alliance with Germany, the USSR returned to itself only that which had belonged to the Russian empire.
                    excluding bukovina (seems)

                    and the screeching of the Balts, who were last independent during the time of the king of the peas, are not the best evidence of the "aggressiveness" of the USSR
                    1. -4
                      7 July 2013 21: 53
                      Quote: Rider
                      Having entered into an alliance with Germany, the USSR returned to itself only that which belonged to the Russian empire before.

                      Having entered into an alliance with Germany, the USSR demonstrated the socio-political affinity of the regimes and, unfortunately, formally was among the countries that began the Second World War, which, as you know, turned into the Great Patriotic War a little later ...
                      1. +2
                        7 July 2013 22: 05
                        Quote: alex86
                        having entered into an alliance with Germany, the USSR


                        Well, in principle, I agree.

                        Quote: alex86
                        and unfortunately FORMALLY turned out to be among the countries that started the Second World War,


                        That's exactly FORMAL.
                        because a calm and unbiased analysis clearly says that we simply returned our.
                        but every ... throat is pulling, about an AGGRESSIVE USSR.
                      2. -1
                        7 July 2013 22: 42
                        What does it mean - returned yours? First recognition of independence, then armed return? Do not try to replace concepts. The USSR was an aggressive country. Like the Russian Empire. And this is normal for a state, especially a large one. The ideology of the state may like or dislike, but this is a common thing - the state is trying to expand and spread zones of influence.
                      3. 0
                        7 July 2013 23: 03
                        Quote: Pimply
                        What does it mean - returned yours?

                        In fact, the USSR regained the territory that had previously belonged to it, restoring the territory along the OLD border (Curzon Line) determined at the end of the 1st World War. The USSR regained the territory which in 1920 was bitten off by the "white and fluffy unfortunate" Poland, which was called nothing other than the "jackal of Europe", so everything is historically fair ...
                        USSR was an aggressive country

                        And what was his (USSR) aggressiveness manifested in? The fact that they wanted to live not at the direction of arrogant Saxons?
                      4. -6
                        8 July 2013 03: 17
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        And what was his (USSR) aggressiveness manifested in? The fact that they wanted to live not at the direction of arrogant Saxons?

                        That led an aggressive policy. That's all.
                      5. 0
                        8 July 2013 12: 30
                        Quote: Pimply
                        The fact that led an aggressive policy

                        And what did we conquer? Enlighten? They took back part of our territory from Poland, which Poland captured in 20m? It does not draw on an aggressive policy, well, it doesn’t draw at all ... Or was it the USSR that in 38-40 it pocketed the whole of Europe? I somehow do not see conquests from our side ... hi
                      6. +3
                        7 July 2013 22: 05
                        Quote: alex86
                        formally was among the countries that started World War II

                        Oh really?!?!
                        We did not declare war on Poland.
                        On 1 of September 1939, the troops of Germany and Slovakia attacked Poland began hostilities in Europe, later on escalating into World War II. Despite the expectation of an attack, the Polish army was unable to withstand German aggression. England and France, having concluded allied treaties with Poland and also preparing for hostilities, instead of providing the promised military assistance to Poland, continued to search for ways to pacify Germany, negotiating through Mussolini to convene a conference in Italy to discuss the "difficulties arising from the Treaty of Versailles." Only September 3 in 11: 00 England, and in 17: 00 France declared war on Germany. On 4 of September, a Franco-Polish agreement on mutual assistance was signed, which in fact never received implementation.
                        On 5 of September, the Polish Ambassador V. Grzybowski requested the supply of military materials and the transit of military cargo through the USSR to Poland; Molotov assured the exact fulfillment of the trade agreement, but refused transit, because in the current international situation the Soviet Union does not want to be drawn into the war on either side and must ensure its security.
                      7. -3
                        7 July 2013 22: 30
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        We did not declare war on Poland.

                        Of course not announced. They simply entered the line of division of Poland agreed upon with Germany. But to declare war - but who are they, the further existence of Poland was not foreseen at all ...
                      8. +3
                        7 July 2013 22: 37
                        Quote: alex86
                        Just left

                        And what about the entry of Poland into the territory of Czechoslovakia at the same time as the Germans?
                      9. -2
                        7 July 2013 23: 16
                        KARS, well, you? ... You need to answer for yourself, and not justify your actions by referring to someone. Then it is better to admit - yes, you entered; Yes, we agreed with Hitler and we are not ashamed (and after all someone will say so, but I am ashamed - "politics is the art of the possible", of course, but how - "the Soviet have their own pride"?)
                      10. +1
                        8 July 2013 09: 30
                        Quote: alex86
                        KARS, well, you? ...
                        And what am I justifying for someone? A simple question
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what about the entry of Poland into the territory of Czechoslovakia at the same time as the Germans?

                        and you started making excuses and into some jungle of flattery. For that matter, many historians do not divide the World War 1914-1945 into the first and second. This is for information. But the question remains valid
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what about the entry of Poland into the territory of Czechoslovakia at the same time as the Germans?
                      11. +2
                        8 July 2013 10: 29
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what about the entry of Poland into the territory of Czechoslovakia at the same time as the Germans?

                        Sorry Kars but then it will be necessary to recognize and
                        The Soviet Union on May 12 expressed its readiness to render military assistance to Czechoslovakia in the confrontation with Germany, provided the Red Army was allowed to pass through the territory of Romania and Poland

                        And about the fact that Poland
                        On August 24, she proposed to Berlin her plan for dividing Czechoslovakia. According to it, Tieszyn Silesia withdrew to Poland, Slovakia and Transcarpathian Rus - to Hungary, the rest of the land - to Germany.

                        not worth mentioning!
                        After all, the world war began from the moment of the III Reich attack on Poland! And what happened before, this is so, the little things in life.
                        Specially used quotes from the article
                        Two predators - Poland and Germany - against Czechoslovakia
                        http://topwar.ru/6015-dva-hischnika-polsha-i-germaniya-protiv-chehoslovakii.html



                        drinks
                      12. -3
                        8 July 2013 19: 00
                        Quote: Kars
                        simple question
                        In the garden there is an elder, and in Kiev there is an uncle ... I said that the USSR, according to a plan agreed with Germany, entered (such, like, Newspeak, in fact occupied) Poland. All other circumstances accompany, but do not refute or justify. Yes, from the country's point of view, this was, apparently, a necessary step, but this does not refute the fact of the USSR's participation in the beginning of WWII, while, formally, on the side of Germany. That we thus defended ourselves from Germany, yes. But formally (once again) they participated in the beginning of WWII. So what? Who is offended by this? So we (the USSR) have done so many things during our existence. Are you ashamed? - I am ashamed, but it was and has already passed, and if we recognize some facts from history, from this it does not become either better or worse. And this modern nonsense of our deputies about "revising the results of the Second World War" - how they can be revised, they already exist.
                      13. 0
                        7 July 2013 22: 39
                        Quote: alex86
                        but who are they, the further existence of Poland was not foreseen at all ...


                        good words.

                        than they impress me.

                        wink
                      14. +5
                        7 July 2013 22: 54
                        Quote: alex86
                        the further existence of Poland was not foreseen at all ...

                        What happened was about to happen.
                        But what was envisaged by the Beck-Ribbentrop agreement of 1935, where poor, unhappy and unjustly offended Poland was entitled to the lands of Ukraine and Belarus (the implementation of the idea, from the times of the Commonwealth, "from Mozha to Mozha"), did not happen.
                      15. +1
                        8 July 2013 02: 27
                        Quote: alex86
                        They simply entered the line of division of Poland agreed upon with Germany.

                        Truly so, only you probably mean the "secret protocols" of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. But it is not entirely true.
                        After the September 19 shootout of German and Soviet troops in the Lviv region at the Soviet-German talks held on September 20-21, a demarcation line was established between the German and Soviet armies, which ran along the river. Pisa before it flows into the river. Narew, then along the river. Narew before it flows into the Western Bug, then along the river. Bug before it flows into the river. Wisla, then along the river. Hanging before the confluence of the San River and further along the river. San to its origins.
                      16. 0
                        8 July 2013 00: 14
                        Quote: alex86
                        formally was among the countries that started World War II

                        What kind of makar is this? USSR merged the Czech Republic, Poland, and then France?
                        And how does the Non-Aggression Pact demonstrate to us the "socio-political affinity of the regimes"? Or does it bother you that the territory was returned to the old border, which our "unfortunate" Poland bit off in 1920? And won yourself almost a couple more years without a war?
                        In the place of the Soviet Government, both you and I would do the same.
                      17. Cat
                        -2
                        8 July 2013 00: 30
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        Does it bother you that they returned the territory to the old border, which our "unfortunate" Poland bit off in 1920?

                        that is, the Italians in 2011 bombed Libya on completely legitimate grounds? This was their colony before 1942.
                        Or, if Spain attacks Cuba tomorrow, will you also say that this is not aggression at all, but only restoration of historical borders?

                        History in general and geopolitics in particular is a rather complex thing. There are no unambiguously "good" and unconditionally "bad" in it. And if you decide to discuss the neighbors on the map - be prepared for the fact that they will respond in kind, there will always be a reason and evidence too.
                      18. +1
                        8 July 2013 00: 36
                        Quote: Cat
                        that is, the Italians in 2011 bombed Libya on completely legitimate grounds? This was their colony before 1942.


                        that is, do you think that the territories of the West / Ukraine should be left to the Poles ?!

                        Quote: Cat
                        And if you decide to discuss the neighbors on the map - be prepared for the fact that they will answer the same, there is always a reason and evidence too.


                        And judging by your thoughts, are you already justifying these neighbors?
                        this is the current patriot plowed!
                        this is the guardian for soldier's lives.
                      19. +2
                        8 July 2013 11: 38
                        Quote: Rider
                        this is the current patriot plowed!
                        this is the guardian for soldier's lives.

                        I am also interested in the conclusions of the Cat.
                        And I am more and more inclined to think that this is from the category of "sly" ...
                        There is no bad or good policy; everyone is equally good-bad.
                        There are no good or bad soldiers, the bad ones simply obeyed the order.
                        There are no good or bad countries and peoples, all are equal before God.
                        Etc. etc.
                        On certain points, it seems like you can agree, but when you see where the citizen ultimately drives, certain doubts are cast.
                      20. 0
                        8 July 2013 00: 45
                        Quote: Cat
                        History in general and geopolitics in particular is a rather complex thing. There are no unambiguously "good" and unconditionally "bad" in it.

                        And I don’t argue with that, but making us constantly bad just because we are doing something for ourselves is also not good ... And all the screams about the bad USSR because they did not do what they wanted , but as it is necessary for US, that's all ... Or do you think that the tails of the impudent Saxons and Gauls should be brought in constantly without receiving anything from them in return except black ingratitude? How is it that the small British have no permanent allies, they have only permanent interests, Britain is above all, maybe it is worth adopting this concept of Russia as above all? And pay less attention to the screeching of the "world community" under whose tune the squealing that we already know very well ...
                        Yes, and another question: did Poland grab a piece of the USSR - does that mean normal in your opinion?
                      21. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 01: 05
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        And I don’t argue with that, but to make of us constantly bad just because we are doing something for ourselves is also not good ...

                        and I do not make of us - "bad", and of them - "good". And we, and they - at different times were both.
                        It just infuriates me when they begin to justify their words and actions with statements like "and here they are, then, in the century before last ...", etc. We live here and now, we have friends, there are enemies, and there are those who do not care. And based on this, it is necessary to build politics and relations - and not drag in people who have long died. Moreover, there is a great many living and healthy bastards who have harmed our country more than all the former aggressors put together. That's what they need - behind the zugunder and against the wall.
                      22. -1
                        8 July 2013 01: 15
                        Quote: Cat
                        Moreover, there is a great number of living and living bastards who have done more harm to our country than all the former aggressors combined. Here they are - for the zugunder and to the wall.

                        But with this I fully agree with you !!!!!!!!!!
                        Quote: Cat
                        And based on this, we need to build policies and relationships - and not drag in the long-dead people

                        But you must not forget about it, and letting us rewrite OUR history is also impossible ... In order not to repeat the mistakes of the past ...
                      23. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 02: 11
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        But you must not forget about it, and letting us rewrite OUR history is also impossible ... In order not to repeat the mistakes of the past ...

                        I do not urge you to forget - I urge you not to rewrite or evaluate it, looking from our bell tower today. And I am extremely negative towards those who engage in such garbage - both from their side and from ours.
                      24. -1
                        8 July 2013 11: 19
                        Quote: Cat
                        looking from our bell tower today.

                        So, I try not to look from the bell tower today, and before giving an assessment of these or other events, I try to deal with the realities of those TECHNICAL years to begin with, if possible ... hi
                      25. -1
                        8 July 2013 01: 08
                        Quote: Cat
                        Or, if Spain attacks Cuba tomorrow, will you also say that this is not aggression at all, but only restoration of historical borders?

                        Did the USSR attack Poland? Participated with Germany in hostilities? belay NOT comparing somehow you know ...
                      26. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 02: 07
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        Did the USSR attack Poland?

                        I believe that I did not attack. You seem to think the same way. But the Poles - they believe that the USSR did attack Poland, and can prove the cases of clashes between the Red Army and the Polish army (which actually took place).
                        And who is right in this case - are we, or the Poles? What do you think?
                      27. 0
                        8 July 2013 02: 12
                        Quote: Cat
                        And who is right in this case - are we, or the Poles? What do you think?


                        that’s just the answer to this question and shows which side to be on.
                      28. 0
                        8 July 2013 02: 20
                        Quote: Cat
                        And who is right in this case - are we, or the Poles? What do you think?

                        In such cases, they usually look at international reaction, and in those days it clearly supported the actions of the USSR:
                        England adopted the Soviet position, and on October 17 and 27 it was announced to the USSR that London wants to see ethnographic Poland of modest size and there can be no question of returning Western Ukraine and Western Belarus to it. Accordingly, England and France advised the Polish government in exile not to declare war on the USSR. Winston Churchill, who was the First Lord of the Admiralty at that time, said in a speech on 1 on October 1939:
                        The fact that the Russian armies were to stand on this line was absolutely necessary for Russia's security against the Nazi threat. Be that as it may, this line exists, and the Eastern Front has been created, which Nazi Germany does not dare to attack. When Mr. Ribbentrop was called to Moscow last week, he had to learn and accept the fact that the implementation of Nazi plans in relation to the Baltic countries and Ukraine should be finally stopped.
                      29. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 03: 28
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        In such cases, they usually look at international reaction, and in those days it clearly supported the actions of the USSR:

                        What is the "opinion of the world community" - you can look at the example of Iraq, Libya, Syria ... So, let's not talk about it.

                        In general, I asked that question not to hear the answer, because I know: the answer does not exist. Rather, it exists, but each has its own. And everyone, in his own way, is right. And you, and I, and that Pole unknown to us. And what to do with all this - FIG knows him ... for all its long history, mankind has never thought of this.
                      30. 0
                        8 July 2013 03: 42
                        Quote: Cat
                        And what to do with all this - FIG knows him ... for all its long history, mankind has never thought of this.


                        the answer has existed for a long time, and lies in the clear recognition of friend or foe.
                        and only such altruists as you fidget sitting in the middle of the fence, and philosophize about the abstraction of good and evil.
                      31. -1
                        8 July 2013 11: 38
                        And who is right in this case - we are with you,

                        Definitely - we, we don’t even have to go to a fortuneteller, because this was done in the interests of our state, i.e. we did not cross the line of the old border, which means that it is doubly correct and, moreover, practically without loss from OUR side. And the opinion of the Poles and others like me in this case is somehow of little interest))) They themselves asked for it)))
                      32. 0
                        8 July 2013 11: 40
                        Quote: Cat
                        I believe that I did not attack. You seem to think the same way. But the Poles - they believe that the USSR did attack Poland, and can prove the cases of clashes between the Red Army and the Polish army (which actually took place).

                        If you take to heart the Polish point of view, which you seem to be inclined to share, namely, Belarus and part of Ukraine - originally Polish lands ... then of course the Poles are right. There is nothing to argue about.
                      33. Cat
                        0
                        8 July 2013 16: 15
                        Quote: Flood
                        If you take to heart the Polish point of view that you seem inclined to share,

                        exactly whose point of view I share - clearly and unequivocally, without any "like", it is indicated in the message that you were pleased to quote.
                        But like, to quote something you quoted ... and read - did not bother.
                      34. 0
                        9 July 2013 10: 31
                        Quote: Cat
                        exactly whose point of view I share - clearly and unequivocally, without any "like", it is indicated in the message that you were pleased to quote.

                        I'm not talking about what you write literally anymore.
                        And what is behind such a position.
                        I already wrote above.
                      35. -2
                        8 July 2013 07: 33
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        What kind of makar is this? USSR merged the Czech Republic, Poland, and then France?

                        "Makar" is simple: together with Germany (well, a little later, but agreed) they entered Poland - and the German attack on Poland is considered the beginning of WWII. But we are bashfully standing on the sidelines and, it seems, has nothing to do with it.
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        The non-aggression pact shows us the "socio-political affinity of the regimes"
                        Considering what was known about Hitler by that time and the similarity of domestic politics - yes.
                        And what about "returned" - you urge to return all ours in a similar way now? That is, to direct aggression against all border countries?
                      36. 0
                        8 July 2013 08: 28
                        Quote: alex86

                        Let me ask, what did you finish?
                      37. -1
                        8 July 2013 11: 09
                        Quote: alex86
                        "Makar" is simple: together with Germany (well, a little later, but agreed) they entered Poland -

                        Oh oh And if you consider in more detail?
                      38. -1
                        8 July 2013 11: 50
                        Quote: alex86
                        And what about "returned" - you urge to return all ours in a similar way now? That is, to direct aggression against all border countries?

                        don't flip my words, okay? The conversation in this case is not about now, you are just trying to prove to me that the USSR was allegedly guilty of starting a war, and, accordingly, pouring water into the mill of those who, in our time, foam with mouth calls for a review of the results of the Second World War.
                        Considering what was known about Hitler by that time and the similarity of domestic politics - yes.

                        And what does socialism not suit you? And a socially oriented state that allows its citizens to live? Only here you don’t need memorized songs about repression, the Gulag, etc.
              2. +9
                6 July 2013 12: 52
                Quote: professor
                That is why the bull in Tehran met with their flies, tearfully asking them to harness actively ...

                The thing is that the concept of "Allied duty" in Western military culture is perceived in a very peculiar way, very often there is a desire to "rake in the heat with someone else's hands" and come to obtaining fresh and prosperous results ...
              3. rolik
                +4
                7 July 2013 02: 13
                Quote: professor
                That is why the bull in Tehran met with their flies, tearfully asking them to harness actively.

                Well, there were no tears. But the flies changing underpants, timidly conducted several military operations almost at the end of the Second World War.
            2. +5
              6 July 2013 12: 12
              Quote: feanor
              Quote: professor
              The anti-Hitler coalition won the war, it also liberated Europe from fascism, Soviet troops took Berlin.

              It's really painful for me to read how the anti-Hitler coalition liberated Europe ... The contribution of the USSR to the victory was much greater than all the allies put together and for me it was like we were sitting on a bull, we plowed.


              As my grandfather, who went through the whole war, said: "We would have won without them, only I might not have returned then!" Meaning: the victory was common. Our share in it is much larger. But to tell the truth (without touching on global scales), did a Texas or Welsh kid who died in the sands of the Sahara, on a desert island in the Pacific Ocean, or under some useless village in France did less for Victory than our veterans? Comparing losses is stupid. The scales are different. But nevertheless, there would not have been a second front (not the one that was opened in the 44th), and the losses of our country would have been much greater. Plus Lend-Lease did something too. Especially for the industry (and supplies of aircraft and vehicles were not superfluous). Machine tools and rare materials helped a lot. Even though the Soviet people worked hard on them, many were made in ... so the victory was common. When my grandfather ate American stew in the trenches of Stalingrad, he was ready to pray for them. And he was at that time to one place, what percentage of all stew was American.
              To summarize. The victory was general. The USSR paid a much higher price than the other allies, BUT! If there were no allies, the price would be much greater.
              1. Grishka100watt
                +8
                6 July 2013 14: 05
                The leaders of the United States (and Britain, apparently) conceived this great war and helped Hitler to raise Germany and start the war. They supplied the Soviet Army with stew and equipment when the situation got out of control and a universal Nazi scribe threatened Europe.

                So, if you take a closer look, they framed us and Germany, and when they sent the stew, they helped, first of all, to themselves dear ones. And to thank them or curse them, everyone already decides for himself. Watching from what moment to start the story.
                1. rolik
                  +3
                  7 July 2013 02: 15
                  Quote: Grishka100watt
                  They supplied the Soviet Army with stew

                  More precisely, they sold the stew for gold. Taking advantage of the current situation.
              2. Grishka100watt
                +2
                6 July 2013 14: 13
                The leaders of the United States (and Britain, apparently) conceived this great war and helped Hitler to raise Germany and start the war. They supplied the Soviet Army with stew and equipment when the situation got out of control and a universal Nazi scribe threatened Europe.

                So, if you take a closer look, they framed us and Germany, and when they sent the stew, they helped, first of all, to themselves dear ones. And to thank them or curse them, everyone already decides for himself. Watching from what moment to start the story.
                1. Grishka100watt
                  0
                  6 July 2013 14: 32
                  Sor, the Internet failed)
            3. ed65b
              +12
              6 July 2013 12: 14
              It seems to me that the professor is a bright product of Western propaganda. all of Europe worked for Hitler, regularly supplying him with human and material resources, England was in a blockade and was afraid to show her nose from its island, and the United States clung to Japan at sea and fought almost the entire war there. Do not talk about Romel, the professor, but you will agree to the greatest victory in the Second World War under El Alamein, which changed the whole course of the war. Yesterday, one wise guy agreed to the fact that we did not defeat the Kwantung army. Today, the professor is talking nonsense. Calm down you already with your five cents in our victory. Can you remind us of our losses? And about the count of Germans with allies who fought on the eastern front?
              1. -2
                6 July 2013 12: 17
                Quote: ed65b
                Calm down you already with your five cents in our victory.

                Victory, dear, not yours, but ours. I have both grandfathers disabled war. So don’t even start.

                Quote: ed65b
                all of Europe worked for Hitler, regularly supplying him with human and material resources

                And how Stalin helped Hitler, I already cited an example here.
                1. ed65b
                  +12
                  6 July 2013 12: 53
                  She is OUR. We grind all armies of Germans, Romanians, Bulgarians, Italians and other allies of Germany. These are OUR PEOPLE in besieged Leningrad behind the machine tool forged victory weapons, plowed in the rear, denying themselves everything. Maybe your grandfathers became disabled in the war, no one belittles their contribution to the victory of their country. But you sing the songs of the census tellers of history. But it is simple to belittle the contribution of the USSR to the victory over Germany and replace this with the amorphous word coalition. So it’s better to translate articles about the best Jewish tanks, I read with pleasure and leave the victory. Do not touch it with your dirty hands. Sorry if offended.
                  1. 0
                    6 July 2013 13: 11
                    Each nation has its own pain, its own war, its own truth. The British say, for example, that when Coventry and London were burning, Soviet citizens did not even think about war. Soviet people have always believed that the Allies later opened a second front. But the fact that in December of the 1941 of the year the American SVs were practically not combatable either in numbers or in armament, no one thought? The Americans entered the war almost in 1942, with serious defeats in the Philippines and the Pacific Islands. They had to create an army, dramatically increase the fleet and fight on two fronts. Practically, the Americans began fighting against the Germans with the landing in Africa at the end of the 1942 year. 43 year of the liberation of Africa, landing in Italy, and finally in June 44 year of landing in France. At the same time, the enormous Pacific front was continuously demanding its funds. So the Americans quite honestly believe that they completed their part in WWII.
                    1. +2
                      7 July 2013 14: 36
                      Before Coventry caught fire and London burned Madrid.
                      And it would be surprising if after Madrid, where the British supported the "democratic forces", they did not light up.
                      65 years later, the story repeated with Al Qaeda and New York.
                      Anglo-Saxons do not learn anything.
                  2. -8
                    6 July 2013 13: 16
                    Quote: ed65b
                    But you sing the songs of the census takers of history.

                    I cite facts, and the facts are known to all, and do not rewrite history.

                    But it is simple to belittle the contribution of the USSR to the victory over Germany and replace this with the amorphous word coalition.

                    I do not for a second touch the contribution of the USSR to the victory over fascism, but he did not go it alone.

                    Quote: ed65b
                    So it’s better to translate articles about the best Jewish tanks, I read with pleasure and leave the victory. Do not touch it with your dirty hands. Sorry if offended.

                    Do not tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.

                    PS
                    Less emotion and more facts.
                    1. ed65b
                      +11
                      6 July 2013 14: 59
                      You have a professor. Besides screaming about the mighty help of England and the USA, without which the USSR would not have won the war, I don’t see it.
                      We would have won the war in any form, with and without the help of the Allies.
                      Do not overestimate your own importance in the victory over Germany. Helped - thanks. And putting yourself at the forefront in victory is not necessary.
                      And I can send better than yours and not in Hebrew but in Russian.
                      1. -3
                        6 July 2013 15: 15
                        Quote: ed65b
                        You have a professor. Besides screaming about the mighty help of England and the USA, without which the USSR would not have won the war, I don’t see it.

                        And where did I write such nonsense? Of course, they would have won, but the price would have to be paid accordingly. And so the 14-year-olds got up for the machines. 10 would put?

                        Quote: ed65b
                        And putting yourself at the forefront in victory is not necessary.

                        Myself is the USSR? I was born there, served in the army and my grandfathers fought there ...

                        Quote: ed65b
                        I can send better than yours and not in Hebrew but in Russian.

                        You and I served in the navy? wink Which? I'm at the BSF.
                    2. 0
                      7 July 2013 10: 40
                      Quote: professor
                      I do not for a second touch the contribution of the USSR to the victory over fascism, but he did not go it alone.

                      Sculpture "Allies" in London. Opened in honor of the winners of World War II ...
                      1. 0
                        7 July 2013 11: 00
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        Sculpture "Allies" in London. Opened in honor of the winners of World War II ...

                        Modestly and tastefully.
                        The leaders of the two powers who won the Second World War are immortalized!
                        А Professor still in doubt, admits contribution USSR to Victory.
                        Remember, the general line has changed! With recognition of silence! Most likely soon it will once again change _ For denial.
                        In the meantime,
                      2. +1
                        7 July 2013 11: 25
                        Quote: Cynic
                        And the professor still doubts, recognizes the contribution of the USSR to the Victory.

                        No need to decide for me, have you agreed?
                      3. +1
                        7 July 2013 11: 44
                        Quote: professor
                        No need to decide for me, have you agreed?

                        Yes, it seems, even in my thoughts was not.
                        Sorry to use your nickname and remarks in a discussion with a third party, but agree
                        Quote: professor
                        I do not for a second touch the contribution of the USSR to the victory over fascism, but he did not go it alone.

                        discord with a given work of art or what?
                        Does it just depict two elderly people similar to the leaders of world powers?
                        not vindictive, just evil and my memory is good
                      4. +2
                        7 July 2013 12: 06
                        Quote: Cynic
                        discord with a given work of art or what?

                        Or how! I have no relation to this "monument" and I continue to assert that the USSR introduced primary a contribution to the victory over fascism as part of the anti-Hitler coalition. He defeated the USSR, but not alone, but with his allies.
                      5. 0
                        7 July 2013 14: 40
                        It would be necessary for your gangsters to go wild so that they would blow up ...
                        And then somehow ...
                        Although not ... It is better for the Arabs there to merge the address.
                        To surrender to the color.
                2. Roll
                  -6
                  6 July 2013 13: 06
                  wassat I would like to add that the army of Vlasov and the policemen (not to be confused with the present.) That the Reich did not help? No need to run into the conquered and condemn them, they do not always have a choice.
                  1. Cheloveck
                    +4
                    6 July 2013 14: 55
                    Quote: Rolm
                    I would like to add that the army of Vlasov and the policemen (not to be confused with the present.) That the Reich did not help? No need to run into the conquered and condemn them, they do not always have a choice.

                    But do not you call to repent before the vanquished?
                    And then the current president of Germany is very hungry for repentance from Russia ...
                    1. +2
                      6 July 2013 15: 06
                      Let him wait.
                    2. -7
                      6 July 2013 15: 17
                      Have you read specifically what he expects? Or read only the headline?
                    3. Roll
                      +2
                      6 July 2013 18: 33
                      angry We have nothing to repent of, Even if Suvorov is right and we wanted to attack first, then we also have nothing to repent of, fascism is an animal ideology and we are right in any way. And conversations, we would have won over stupidity without the help of Liz Liz, did present such a picture; how a grandson takes away Amerov’s stew from a cauldron from his grandfather, a fighter harikeyn or aerial cobra and grandfather says you will win and so, but we will not argue.
                      1. 0
                        7 July 2013 09: 33
                        Quote: Rolm
                        the grandson takes away from the grandfather Amerov’s stew from a pot, a harikeyn fighter or an aerocobra

                        Stew and that aircobra that Kingcobra would not have taken, but a hurricane could.
                3. Cheloveck
                  +4
                  6 July 2013 13: 39
                  Quote: professor
                  Victory, dear, not yours, but ours. I have both grandfathers disabled war. So don’t even start.

                  So, I wonder, your grandfathers in the courses for your point of view?
                  1. -7
                    6 July 2013 14: 42
                    But do you think that victory was achieved with one cry "For Stalin!" and without anyone's help? The Second World War is called the Second World War for a reason.
                    1. +2
                      6 July 2013 17: 43
                      No! OUR ANCESTORS climbed the enemy with an exclamation - FOR THE MOTHERLAND! (well, then - FOR STALIN) ...
                      1. -1
                        6 July 2013 17: 54
                        And everything was decided only by this cry? No, he, without a doubt, made one of the decisive contributions. But everything was decided only by him?
                      2. 0
                        7 July 2013 09: 38
                        Quote: Pimply
                        And everything was decided only by this cry?

                        Yes, what is it, one confuses the numbers, the other begins to joke!
                        Requested the word fool around but you are not a man of God
                      3. +2
                        7 July 2013 12: 00
                        And you can’t even beat the jingoists?
                      4. +1
                        7 July 2013 12: 15
                        Quote: Pimply
                        you can’t beat the jingoists?

                        Ну
                4. +2
                  7 July 2013 14: 28
                  No, Professor.
                  This is OUR Victory on May 2, 1945.
                  But September 1, 1945 is already common.
                  And if it weren’t, there would be no Israel.
                  That would have remained the Palestinian colony of Great Britain.
                  Where your compatriots were accepted into the English army in the third grade after the Arabs.
              2. Roll
                -14
                6 July 2013 13: 04
                am Hello, and you are a clear product of Soviet official propaganda. Where do you come from, and indeed someone knows if we would have won the Reich without the help of our allies or not. Or, as in the history of the CPSU, the Bolsheviks are always right in everything, and all the others are always mistaken in everything. For example, the Allies bombed the Reich Research Center in Pabyayund. And if Hitler got the atomic bomb would we win ???
                1. +1
                  7 July 2013 12: 35
                  Quote: Rolm
                  . For example, the Allies bombed the Reich Research Center in Pabyayund.

                  Actually, most likely in Peenemuende, about
                  Quote: Rolm
                  Pubayunde
                  do not know .
                  That did not stop the III Reich in England from launching Fau missiles in full, and even von Braun was saved to head the Yusov space program.
                  Quote: Rolm
                  And if Hitler got the atomic bomb would we win

                  Well, they could not start the graphite reactor. For some reason, German physicists incorrectly defined its parameters as unsuitable as a moderator (calculation error or dirty graphite? Three haha!) It didn’t work out on heavy water because of its shortage, let’s say _ The commando plant for its production was blown up .
                  Etc.
                  Remember nothing accidental in this world!
                  Accidents are not accidental !
          2. +13
            6 July 2013 13: 24
            Quote: professor
            anti-Hitler coalition, it freed Europe from fascism,
            - Nefig they did not release (the "allies"), like crows flew into the division of property, they sensed that if they did not fit in to "liberate", then the whole of Europe would lie under the USSR. And they obviously didn't like it. And so a little later, and with great losses, but our grandfathers would have crushed the fascists to this, and so everything went. And all sorts of "hidden pages of history" and "this is how it really was: a terrible truth" - written by your people, ("after all, it is very profitable to take a little care of the plowing dictatorship of the sssg on the books" ) Read for yourself this fictitious nonsense)))
          3. rolik
            +3
            7 July 2013 02: 11
            Quote: professor
            The anti-Hitler coalition won the war,

            The Soviet Union won the war, with the help of some countries dissatisfied with the regime of Nazi Germany. This is the correct wording.
            1. Cat
              +2
              7 July 2013 02: 31
              Quote: rolik
              The Soviet Union won the war, with the help of some countries dissatisfied with the regime of Nazi Germany. This is the correct wording.

              The anti-Hitler coalition won the war, the Soviet Army played a decisive role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

              That's right.
            2. -3
              7 July 2013 08: 54
              Quote: rolik
              The Soviet Union won the war, with the help of some countries dissatisfied with the regime of Nazi Germany. This is the correct wording.

              The war was won by a coalition which included both the USSR and the Act on Unconditional Surrender of the German Armed Forces, signed by representatives of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, the High Command of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.
              1. +5
                7 July 2013 09: 46
                Quote: professor
                The act of unconditional surrender of the German armed forces was signed by representatives of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, the High Command of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

                May 7th recall?
                How beautifully did the esteemed assistant allies try to make the USSR?
                After all, we still celebrate the Great Victory on different days!
                True, they then recouped in the Far East, with Japan still biting along the territories.
                Soyuznichki with a stone in the bosom. Neither ours nor ours was sorry!
                1. 0
                  7 July 2013 14: 59
                  Well, in the Far East, the allies simply looked at the Commanders themselves. And our figs in their pocket showed them beating them off the Japanese, while the allies of the other islands of the Pacific Ocean were taken away from the Japanese by the bureaucratic method on board the Missouri.
      2. Roll
        -5
        6 July 2013 12: 56
        am Do they lie to the eastern front, although there were desert-colored tanks on the eastern front, but they could take Iran and block the Lend-Lease route for us, and that was bad. And then the ridge is long, we specifically broke the ridge, and the temporary allies slowly pressed on the tailbone.
        1. +1
          6 July 2013 13: 05
          Quote: Rolm
          although there were desert-colored tanks on the eastern front

          These are the tales of the Vienna Woods. Until February 18, 1943, the base color of all German equipment was gray (Panzer Grau), after dark yellow (Dunkel Gelb)
          1. 0
            7 July 2013 20: 04
            Quote: Spade
            Until February 18 1943, the base color of all German technology was gray (Panzer Grau), then dark yellow (Dunkel Gelb)

            For the ground forces of the Wehrmacht and field forces, this was Schwarz Grau (RAL 1935) approved and standardized in the 7021. And if before the 1939 of the year the German troops used two-color camouflage from Schwarz Grau and a dark brown Signal Braun (RAL 8002) in the form of “cloud-like” spots (the ratio of 2 / 3 to 1 / 3, respectively), then according to the circular (Heeres Memorandum - НМ ) No. 864 from 31 on July 1940 of the year, camouflage painting for German vehicles was canceled. The new color was adopted from the assumption that in combat conditions the equipment will be masked in the shade of trees or buildings, for which camouflage is not required, but only a darker background is needed.
            With the onset of winter (and the uncertain prospects for the Eastern Campaign), German dark gray tanks and cars were made less visible. On November 18 on November 1941, the German command issued circular No. 1128, regulating the use of water-soluble white protective paint for camouflaging weapons and equipment in snowy winters. With the onset of spring, water-soluble paint was supposed to be washed off using a base dark gray protective layer in summer campaigns. However, by the spring of 1942, a plain-gray protective shade for camouflaging German equipment was clearly not enough. “Blitzkrieg” finally failed and both fighting armies either advanced, or went on the defensive. In addition, until March 1 1942, both sides lost a large number of tanks and each vehicle in the army was worth its weight in gold. Therefore, the new German technology that came to the front from the spring of 1942, in addition to the basic dark gray color, had camouflage in the form of large green, and sometimes dark brown spots or stripes.
            For the fighting in Africa, at the end of 1941, a lighter gray RAL7027 and brown RAL 8020 colors, which did not have official names, were developed, but most of the cars painted by them came to the USSR.

            In the summer of 1942, during the fighting in the Crimea and the Caucasus on the Soviet-German front, the appearance of German equipment was noted, painted according to the early example of the German African Corps with yellow-brown paint Grun Braun (RAL 8000) or later RAL 8020, officially introduced by the 8470 circular; 315 from 25 March to 1942 year. This phenomenon can be explained first of all by the similarity of the climatic conditions of Crimea and the Caucasus with the North African (especially in the summer), as well as the transfer to the Caucasus along with the “F” corps, intended for operations in tropical conditions, other armored units that were never sent to Africa. According to another version, before switching to a new version of the basic color, large-scale tests of both individual tanks and self-propelled guns, and entire formations were carried out in the German troops in the field and in combat conditions. In the autumn of the 1942 of the year, along with standard camouflaged combat vehicles, dark yellow 51-C III R. self-propelled guns began to enter the troops. This position is confirmed not only by photographs of the Stalingrad battles, but also by the chronicle of the autumn parade of German troops in France, where StuG III fighting vehicles F have already been painted dark yellow.
            By a circular number 181 from 18 on February 1943, a unified camouflage scheme was introduced in the armored forces of the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and SS field forces. The basic protective color was the dark yellow shade of Dunkel Gelb (adopted without the RAL index), which tanks, self-propelled guns, vehicles and other military equipment were painted directly at the enterprises.
      3. +6
        6 July 2013 15: 01
        Quote: professor
        Yes, the ridge was also broken in Africa where the Nazis held not small forces

        Significant forces - one Rommel expeditionary force? Do not tell the Professor, how many such corps were on the Eastern Front? It does not compare somehow, but most importantly, how much did they mess with it? And they could not do anything right up until May 1943. Breakers pancake ... am
      4. +1
        6 July 2013 19: 01
        Quote: professor
        Yes, the ridge was also broken in Africa where the Nazis held not small forces that could otherwise send to the Eastern Front.

        See above for the number of Nazi units in Africa.
  10. Algor73
    +9
    6 July 2013 10: 29
    Whatever it was, but the T-34 tank was recognized as the best tank of World War 2. They fought on this tank, won the victory. And given the conditions under which it was made, and most importantly, WHO did (women, children, old people), then we can safely ignore all these imperfections. Moreover, in war, the tank’s life path is short. Tank, this is not to ride around America and boast that, they say, we are the most distant ...
    1. -14
      6 July 2013 10: 51
      Quote: Algor73
      Whatever it was, but the T-34 tank was recognized as the best tank of the 2 of World War II.

      Let me ask who he is recognized? The tank is good and timely, but just do not need a gag.
      1. +5
        6 July 2013 11: 01
        The amers themselves admitted this, during the Korean War it is true, but nevertheless admitted.
        1. -8
          6 July 2013 11: 03
          Quote: cth; fyn
          The amers themselves admitted this, during the Korean War it is true, but nevertheless admitted.

          Discard the link to these confessions pliz. wink
          1. +9
            6 July 2013 12: 15
            It is significant that Cagle and Mason, the authors of the book “Naval War in Korea,” simply refused to compare American tanks with the T-34-85, recognizing the absolute superiority of the latter in terms of the range of combat properties.
            topwar.ru/1248-t-34-poslevoennye-bitvy.html
            On health prof!
            1. -3
              6 July 2013 12: 24
              Quote: cth; fyn
              On health prof!

              It is significant that Cagle and Mason, the authors of the book “Naval War in Korea”, simply refused to compare American tanks with the T-34-85, recognizing the absolute superiority of the latter in terms of the combination of combat properties. Indeed, the Pershing had an unreliable undercarriage and low power density and, as a result, poor mobility, especially in mountain conditions. M46 tanks were new and have not yet got rid of the "childhood illnesses", which caused a lot of trouble to their crews. The American tankers themselves preferred to go into battle on the good old Shermans, believing that due to their better training they would be able to survive in possible clashes with North Korean tanks.
              Thank you very much, and where is it that the T-34 is the best tank of the Second World War? To present you Suvorov’s book as a counterargument, they say the Russians themselves think that ...
              1. +4
                6 July 2013 12: 49
                T-34-85, recognizing the absolute superiority of the latter
                1. -1
                  6 July 2013 13: 18
                  One author over some American designs. Where about the "best tank of WWII"? Suvorov to quote (rhetorical question)? wink
                  1. +6
                    6 July 2013 13: 37
                    Where about the "best tank of WWII"?
                    Okay, unsuccessful, but in Korea he set the heat, moreover, the amers recognized that he is better than the Sherman and the new Chaffee (well, with Chaffee, everything is clear, he is a light tank, although he got on the conveyor belt in 45) is better than pershing which was not suitable for Korean TVD was not brought.
                    In addition, the Military Channel rating of T-34 took first place among the best tanks of the twentieth century. At the same time, he went around Sherman, T-4 and Tiger.
                    1. 0
                      6 July 2013 14: 08
                      Quote: cth; fyn
                      At the same time, he went around Sherman, T-4 and Tiger.

                      If you are interested and speak English read this, here and about the comparison with Sherman.

                      T-34 vs M4 Sherman
                      The main US tank in 1942-45 was the Sherman. It weighed 30 tons and was armed with a 75mm gun. The late war version M4 76 had a more powerful 76mm high velocity gun.

                      There are many similarities between the T-34 and the M-4 Sherman. Both tanks were built in huge numbers and they are comparable in weight and gun caliber. Even their updated version T-34/85 and M4 76mm are very close.

                      As a weapon system however the M4 was superior. It had the same good 'soft' qualities as the German tanks (internal layout, optics, radio), It had significantly better stability over rough terrain plus it was very reliable mechanically. In armor and firepower it was the same as the T-34.


                      WWII Myths - T-34 Best Tank of the war
                      1. 0
                        6 July 2013 14: 17
                        Well google help me laughing
                      2. +1
                        6 July 2013 14: 43
                        Well, as we see in this article, there are even more myths than in the T-34 itself.
                    2. -4
                      6 July 2013 14: 51
                      Proofs, please - where, when, who exactly recognized
                    3. -3
                      6 July 2013 15: 09
                      There were no large-scale tank battles in Korea, so the Americans did not learn anything special about the T-34 - it surpasses Chaffee, roughly corresponds to Sherman, that's all. The main unpleasant surprise associated with the T-34 for Americans was the low efficiency of the main anti-tank grenade launcher of those years - the M9 bazooka.
                      1. +2
                        6 July 2013 15: 33
                        Nevertheless, the tanks were actively used and the T-34 proved to be the best, because as you know, the main opponents of the tank are not enemy tanks, but anti-tank artillery, infantry and mines with attack aircraft.
                        That is why it is necessary to compare both the performance characteristics and the damage caused (combat effectiveness).
                      2. -4
                        6 July 2013 16: 25
                        References, proofs, monographs, Svidtelsva
                      3. +1
                        6 July 2013 16: 57
                        The links were given above.
                        Who is so violently minus the professor? and sensible comments including?
                    4. -2
                      6 July 2013 15: 24
                      There were no large-scale tank battles in Korea, so the Americans did not learn anything special about the T-34 - it surpasses Chaffee, roughly corresponds to Sherman, that's all. The only really unpleasant surprise associated with the T-34 for Americans was the low efficiency of the main anti-tank grenade launcher of those years - the M9 bazooka.
              2. +9
                6 July 2013 13: 59
                Quote: professor
                Suvorov’s book as a counterargument to represent, they say the Russians themselves believe that ...
                That's it, Suvorova, and that slut - the wicked avenger offended by life)))))) What are the arguments from him ??? An argument of Suvorov’s inflamed brain? laughing
              3. The comment was deleted.
              4. rolik
                -1
                7 July 2013 02: 25
                Quote: professor
                It is significant that Cagle and Mason, the authors of the book “Naval War in Korea,” simply refused to compare American tanks with the T-34-85, recognizing the absolute superiority of the latter in terms of the range of combat properties.

                Come on professor, stop wagging your tail))))) excuses began))))). As a schoolboy, be ... yes ..me, yes, something like that ... like.
                And the search for excuses begins laughing
              5. +1
                7 July 2013 15: 06
                No, that’s why you are here in vain ..
                Substitute the basket under the cons.
                It would be better if the words of the veterans who fought on them led.
                Well, not the T34-85 limo.
                So, after all, the mattress had no analogues.
                But the words of many American Korean war veterans that they did not have such a powerful tank as the T34 is.
                Well, maybe he is not powerful. They were both more powerful and faster, more convenient.
                But for the battle, he performed his task in the best way.

                This small model will not wait for anyone.
                1. -1
                  7 July 2013 17: 05
                  Quote: dustycat
                  So, after all, the mattress had no analogues.

                  Why's that? Please comment.
          2. rolik
            +2
            7 July 2013 02: 22
            Quote: professor
            Discard the link to these confessions pliz.

            Especially for you fellow
            The first shocking news of the invasion of South Korea reported the terrible defeat inflicted by such Reds. To the Americans, who remember the glory of Patton’s triumphant tank attacks through France and Germany, this seems incredible. Then came reports that the missiles of our obsolete bazookas bounced off the attacking tanks, like ordinary bullets. It soon became clear that the North Koreans were equipped with fast, durable Russian T-34s, weapons that should force the United States to look for new ways to counter enemy armored vehicles.

            The truth is that we were taken by surprise. Five years of reasoning in a peacetime economy led to the fact that in the United States new improved tanks exist only on paper and in trials. And in the Far East there is not a single worthy tank to throw it in a sudden and decisive battle. Will the American military adviser, who said that the tanks are not suitable there, be able to explain his mistake or not, and the United States now has to fight more powerful enemy tanks.
            What can we answer? At the Aberdeen training ground, Maryland, last week, a LIFE photographer and reporter saw the T-34 surpassing the American tanks Pershing and Sherman, which are now being sent to our retreating and enemy-pursued divisions in Korea. The Russian army, learned the lessons of the Second World War and has a huge army armed with a T-34 and a heavy tank Joseph Stalin III. And we console ourselves with the fact that we were able to send only a few improved M-46 Pattons to the west, while other experimental models of tanks did not even enter the production stage.

            Last week, an American T-34 driver in Aberdeen wiped his face and said, "This little Russian model won't wait for anyone."
            1. +2
              7 July 2013 08: 59
              Quote: rolik
              Especially for you

              Thanks for the red font. Is this to make it clearer?
              I read everything you presented and did not say a word that the Americans recognized the T-34 as "the best tank of the Second World War." Maybe not noticed? Please highlight in bold. wink
              1. rolik
                0
                7 July 2013 13: 49
                hi
                Quote: professor
                Thank you for the red font. Is this to make it clearer?

                Please)))) I tried very hard to convey this idea to you.
                So after all, Sherman was one of the best only mattresses also say)))))))
                Well, our liberal historians.
                Or isn’t it ??? Show me ... please .... tankers who would say that the mattress tank is better than the T-34. Only not American analysts, tankers. And those who fought on it in World War II, from our tankers.
                1. +1
                  7 July 2013 14: 08
                  Quote: rolik
                  So after all, Sherman was one of the best only mattresses also say)))))))

                  Money for the fish again? Where and who called the Sherman the best WWII tank? And what about the T-34 "the best tank of the Second World War"?
                2. 0
                  7 July 2013 17: 06
                  Yes? And let me find Soviet memoirs, where they speak of Sherman in the most excellent degree. Believe it?
              2. 0
                7 July 2013 15: 12
                "This little Russian model won't wait for anyone."
            2. djon77
              -1
              7 July 2013 15: 16
              and this is how the cumulative ammunition bazooka bounced just like bullets?))))))))))))
      2. 0
        6 July 2013 11: 03
        The same Americans
        1. -9
          6 July 2013 11: 11
          Quote: Spade
          The same Americans

          He searched for so many and asked for others, but apart from one American "expert" he never found such confessions. sad
          1. rolik
            +1
            7 July 2013 14: 17
            Quote: professor
            Oh, how many he searched and asked others

            Here is a Professor's opinion on the T-34 of German tank crews. They didn’t write about Sherman, or do you think that the Germans twisted their hearts in these words ???
            Here is how one of the best German tank aces Otto Carius wrote about this in his book Tigers in the Mud:
            “Another event hit us like a ton of bricks: the first Russian T-34 tanks appeared! The amazement was complete. How could it happen that up there, they did not know about the existence of this excellent tank? The T-34, with its good armor, perfect shape and magnificent 76,2-mm long-barreled gun, thrilled everyone, and all German tanks were afraid of it until the end of the war. What were we to do with these monsters, thrown in multitude against us? At the time, the 37mm cannon was still our strongest anti-tank weapon. If we were lucky, we could have hit the T-34 turret and jammed it. If you are even more fortunate, the tank will then not be able to act effectively in battle. Of course, not a very encouraging situation! The only way out was the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun. With its help, it was possible to effectively act even against this new Russian tank. Therefore, we began to treat the anti-aircraft gunners with the highest respect, who before that from us got only condescending smiles. "

            And here is an excerpt from Paul Karel’s book “Hitler Goes East”:
            “But the Soviet T-34 became the most formidable enemy - an armored giant 5,92 m long, 3 m wide and 2,44 m high, possessing high speed and maneuverability. He weighed 26 tons, armed with a 76 mm cannon, had a large turret, wide track tracks and sloping armor. It was not far from the Styr River that the rifle brigade of the 16th Panzer Division first encountered it. The fighter-anti-tank unit of the 16th Panzer Division quickly advanced its 37-mm anti-tank guns. On the enemy tank! Range of 100 meters. The Russian tank continued to approach. Fire! Hit. One more and one more disappearance. The servant continued the countdown: the 21, 22, 23rd 37-mm shell hit the steel colossus armor, bouncing off it like peas from a wall. The gunners swore loudly. Their commander turned white with tension. The distance was reduced to 20 meters. “Aim at the tower support,” the lieutenant ordered. Finally they got it. The tank turned and began to roll away. The ball bearing of the tower was hit, the tower jammed, but otherwise the tank remained intact. The calculation of the anti-tank guns was relieved. - Did you see that? - the gunners asked each other. From that moment on, the T-34 became a bugbear for them, and the 37-mm cannon, which worked so well in previous campaigns, received the contemptuous nickname of the “army door knocker.”
            For 1941, we had the best tank ratio: armor-gun-engine. The Germans caught up with us only by the year 43, but we also had the t-34-85. For some reason they remember him badly, reluctance, probably, to recognize his superiority.
            Professor, do you know what the Germans called the Shermans ??? Secretly, "Willie's Steam Boiler" and "Stove for Tommy", for some reason they didn't talk about our T-34 and T-34-85.
            1. 0
              7 July 2013 14: 27
              The red font resembles the cry of those who have nothing to say. bully

              Am I not able to read here alone, or are there still such ignoramuses as me? In the excerpts you quoted (I would like to see where they come from, the links, and the original source to make sure they are not taken out of context), the Germans appreciated the good T-34 tank. But I didn’t see how they called it the best tank of the Second World War and accordingly “lowered” all their tanks.
      3. +6
        6 July 2013 12: 54
        Quote: professor
        Let me ask who he is recognized? The tank is good and timely, but just do not need a gag.

        Well Professor You give a damn ... fool
        1. -5
          6 July 2013 13: 20
          Quote: Corsair
          Well Professor You give a damn ...

          I don’t give anything, I am allergic to urapatriotism of any country. The T-34 was not recognized by any of the allies as "the best tank of the Second World War." request
          1. +4
            6 July 2013 16: 01
            I won’t argue about the Allies, every sandpiper praises its swamp, it’s enough that the Germans recognized the T-34 as the best tank, and they found a lot of flaws in it.
            1. -1
              6 July 2013 16: 04
              Quote: Motors1991
              I won’t argue about the Allies, every sandpiper praises its swamp, it’s enough that the Germans recognized the T-34 as the best tank, and they found a lot of flaws in it.

              Discard the link on the German, everything is fine with the German.
              1. +4
                6 July 2013 16: 32
                Guderian demanded to copy-paste, is this not enough?
                1. +1
                  7 July 2013 09: 00
                  Quote: Spade
                  Guderian demanded to copy-paste, is this not enough?

                  Few. They wanted to fill a niche in their armored vehicles and all.
                  No one was going to smelter the Tigers and Panthers on the T-34.
                  1. +2
                    7 July 2013 10: 40
                    Quote: professor
                    No one was going to smelter the Tigers and Panthers on the T-34.

                    What is it with you? Professor
                    Pz.VI Tiger beginning of work 1937 heavy tank
                    Panther start of work november 1941 medium tank
                    Do you know about the Panther version from Daimler-Benz? You know!
                    And a cool argument in favor of the model from Man also heard
                    the similarity of the new tank with the T-34 will lead to confusion of military vehicles on the battlefield and losses from its own fire

                    Ay-ay-ay Professor I do not recognize you!
                    bully
                    1. +1
                      7 July 2013 10: 51
                      Quote: Cynic
                      Ai-i-ya professor I do not recognize you!

                      But I will recognize you. The Panther was created on the basis of the T-34 in order to fill a niche in the armored forces of the Wehrmacht, they did not refuse other tanks. Normal evolution of tank building.
                      1. +1
                        7 July 2013 11: 10
                        Quote: professor
                        But I will recognize you.

                        drinks
                        Hmm.
                        Quote: professor
                        Panther was created based on the T-34 in order to fill a niche

                        И
                        Quote: professor
                        No one was going to smelter the Tigers and Panthers on the T-34.

                        How are these your statements not correlated with each other?
                        Although, indeed, why re-cast Panther on the T-34 if it is already so
                        In the image and likeness
                        its created.
                        Here is the Tiger on the Panther ...
                        hi
                      2. rolik
                        0
                        7 July 2013 14: 24
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Hmm.

                        Professor a little obl .... laughing
                        Here it is propaganda of LGBT people in Europope, it is bearing fruit, soon there men will have to be entered in the red book bully
                      3. 0
                        7 July 2013 14: 29
                        Quote: rolik
                        Professor a little obl ....

                        Do not fantasize and more red font. laughing
                      4. djon77
                        0
                        7 July 2013 15: 21
                        Professor didn’t agree here. There were two panthers. One resembled the T-34 and which did not go into the series. Hitler did not like some nuances. Compare the panther's running and the T-34. What kind of copying is there I don’t quite understand
                      5. +2
                        7 July 2013 17: 59
                        Quote: djon77
                        compare the chassis of the panther and t-34. what kind of copying is there, I don’t quite understand

                        Blindly copy from the lack of basic knowledge, development.
                        In the Third Reich it was, not to mention gaining access to European tank achievements.









                        Do not you think that one of the machines falls out of the row?
                        Not a product of the gloomy Teutonic genius!
              2. +1
                6 July 2013 17: 11
                Please, G. Guderian ,, Memoirs of a soldier ,, According to the results of the battles near Mtsensk, a large number of Russian T-34 tanks were thrown into the battle, causing great losses to our tanks. The superiority of the material part of our tank forces that has taken place so far has been now lost and now transferred to the enemy.,. And then follow the proposals for the creation of a commission with the aim of inspecting the tanks wrecked on the battlefield and discussing the design of new tanks.
                1. +2
                  6 July 2013 17: 16
                  Please, G. Guderian ,, Memoirs of a soldier ,, According to the results of the battles near Mtsensk, a large number of Russian T-34 tanks were thrown into the battle, causing great losses to our tanks. The superiority of the material part of our tank forces that has taken place so far has been now lost and now transferred to the enemy.,. And then follow the proposals for the creation of a commission with the aim of inspecting the tanks wrecked on the battlefield and discussing the design of new tanks.

                  smeared off a scoundrel wink
                  around this time he also said the opposite, about backward technology.

                  although yes, the commission was actually created, it’s absolutely right here
                  1. +1
                    6 July 2013 17: 19
                    Quote: Stas57
                    smeared off a scoundrel
                    Well, it was necessary to somehow explain the big losses and the general not success. Well, you won’t tell me directly that the troops violated elementary truths in the matter of reconnaissance and combat guard, and in general the organization of the battle.
                    1. 0
                      6 July 2013 17: 21
                      Well, it was necessary to somehow explain the big losses and the overall failure. Well, you won’t tell me directly that the troops violated the elementary truths in the matter of intelligence and combat protection, and in general the organization of the battle

                      but have we recently found out that this is nonsense,elementary truths in the matter of reconnaissance and combat protection, and in general the organization of battle
                      1. 0
                        6 July 2013 17: 34
                        Quote: Stas57
                        and haven’t you and you recently found out that this is nonsense, elementary truths in the matter of reconnaissance and combat security, and in general the organization of battle

                        That is, that part of the attacked German tank columns moved so that the military guard moved at distances and intervals less than the authorized ones, in order to ensure the speed of their movement ... Which allowed our tankers to deliver very painful attacks from ambushes and counterattacks. This is normal...
                        And that when organizing attacks, the German commanders absolutely ceased to take into account the counterattacks carried out by our troops, and therefore did not allocate forces and means to repel them, but put everything on one single blow and as a result, could not oppose the ongoing counterattacks ...
                      2. 0
                        6 July 2013 17: 57
                        That is, that part of the attacked German tank columns moved so that the military guard moved at distances and intervals less than the authorized ones, in order to ensure the speed of their movement ... Which allowed our tankers to deliver very painful attacks from ambushes and counterattacks. This is normal...

                        yes, yes yes, this is all nonsense, there were no "sleeping" columns, Clark is wrong.

                        And that when organizing attacks, the German commanders absolutely ceased to take into account the counterattacks carried out by our troops, and therefore did not allocate forces and means to repel them, but put everything on one single blow and, as a result, could not oppose the ongoing counterattacks.
                        here I, honestly, did not read what you mean, but there was no "one single blow".
                        long five-day battles
                      3. 0
                        6 July 2013 18: 16
                        Quote: Stas57
                        yes, yes yes, this is all nonsense, there were no "sleeping" columns, Clark is wrong.

                        The real hit, wandering from book to book, was the battle of Mtsensk in October 1941, of which they made the T-34 and KV symbol of superiority over the enemy. Heinz Guderian wrote the following about these battles: “South of Mtsensk, the 4-I Panzer Division was attacked by Russian tanks, and it had to survive a difficult moment. For the first time, the superiority of Russian T-34 tanks was manifested in a sharp form. The division suffered significant losses. The planned rapid attack on Tula had to be postponed

                        The source material for the stories about the battles near Mtsensk was the report of the commander of the 4th Panzer Division, Major General Willibald von Langeman und Erlenkamp, ​​compiled by him in hot pursuit of events. A few quotes: “After the capture of Orel, the Russians first used their heavy tanks in large numbers in several clashes, which led to heavy tank battles, since Russian tanks no longer allowed themselves to be knocked out by artillery fire. For the first time in the eastern campaign, the absolute superiority of the Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.Kpfw.III and IV was revealed. Russian tanks usually used the construction in a semicircle, firing from their 7,62-cm guns from a distance of 1000 meters, throwing out monstrous breakdown energy with high accuracy ”[124]. And further: “In addition to better weapons and armor, the 26-ton Christie (“ T-34 ”) tank is faster, more maneuverable, its turret rotation mechanism is clearly better. [...] In the course of the advance from Glebov to Minsk, we did not find a single Russian tank that failed due to breakdowns ”

                        However, the unforgivable mistakes of Langeman can be traced from the description of the battle. His division met the attack of the Katukovites in the convoy, which was not deployed in battle formations. This could happen only if the division command relaxed and refused to reconnaissance and security. Normally organized reconnaissance in all directions could timely warn a tank column of the approach of Soviet tanks.

                        This is from the book of our historian Isaev http://www.telenir.net/istorija/antisuvorov_desjat_mifov_vtoroi_mirovoi/p8.php
                      4. 0
                        6 July 2013 18: 20
                        Well, you couldn’t post, I already know this, and I know how Isaev later explained it to the miller
                        I repeat once again this-
                        However, the unforgivable mistakes of Langeman can be traced from the description of the battle. His division met the attack of the Katukovites in the convoy, which was not deployed in battle formations. This could happen only if the division command relaxed and refused to reconnaissance and security. Normally organized reconnaissance in all directions could timely warn a tank column of the approach of Soviet tanks.
                        complete nonsense of Clark, but in order not to be a voice, we take at least a wiki, or a butterflyfield, and if not lazily FI Shein D.- "1 guards brigade" and Shchekotikhin E. Ye. scheduled, and no columns were lying around there, heavy, serious battles.
                      5. 0
                        6 July 2013 18: 56
                        Quote: Stas57
                        and if not lazily Shein-1 Guards
                        I got acquainted thanks, and that material, of course, describes those fights in great detail, but does not contradict what was said earlier. And it is:
                        On October 6, 1941, one of the combat groups of the German 4th Panzer Division, very quickly moving out of the Orel region, went to the Lisitsa River, near Mtsensk and captured a bridge with a bridgehead on the other side, they could only reach such a speed of movement by building up in marching columns. And judging by their further actions, the fact that they very quickly, not having achieved the proper depth of the captured bridgehead, transferred artillery, including anti-aircraft, to it, suggests that they did not expect counter-attacks from tanks - Where is the intelligence work? And to the honor and glory of our tankers, they "punished" the Germans in full, destroying with their fire not only German tanks, but also 105mm howitzers and 88-mm anti-aircraft guns - the enemy's main vehicles at that time ...
                      6. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 05
                        I got acquainted thanks, and that material, of course, describes those fights in great detail, but does not contradict what was said earlier. And it is:

                        so poorly acquainted)))


                        October 6 1941 one of the combat groups of the German 4 tank division, very quickly moving out of the Orel region, went to the Lisitsa River, near Mtsensk and captured a bridge with a bridgehead on the other side, they could achieve such speed only by building in marching columns.

                        not true, because this is only part of the division, its strengthening, the main forces after the battle of 5 did not retreat anywhere, but were in close proximity.
                        And judging by their further actions, the fact that they very quickly, having not achieved the proper depth of the captured bridgehead, transferred artillery, including anti-aircraft, to it, suggests that they did not wait for the counterattacks of the tanks

                        they didn’t wait when they met both the 4 and 5, and therefore they brought the same anti-aircraft guns, and they dragged them in a critical situation, when they realized that the tankers could not do anything

                        and now Isaev / Clark

                        However, the unforgivable mistakes of Langeman can be traced from the description of the battle. His division met the attack of the Katukovites in the convoy, which was not deployed in battle formations.
                        is there such a thing? no, the division was deployed in battle formations, on a well-prepared defense.
                      7. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 08
                        Quote: Stas57
                        not true

                        Do you know exactly the German tactics of that time? Have you heard anything about "battle groups"?
                      8. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 17
                        Do you know exactly the German tactics of that time? Have you heard anything about "battle groups"?

                        maybe you also tell me the name of the campaign group in the battle from 6.10?
                        I doubt that campaign groups are created only 9go

                        I’ll tell you a secret, I’ve been digging this story for 10 years, and what is a campho group, how it works, and what it consists of.
                        Well, I say, you have not read, where does the battle of 6 begin? from the column?
                        horseradish with two, with artillery preparation by the Germans
                        After the artillery bombardment and the air raid, the German units perform.
                        the column relaxed great - with an air raid and artillery preparation
                      9. +1
                        6 July 2013 19: 27
                        [quote = stas57] [quote]
                        maybe you also tell me the name of the campaign group in the battle from 6.10?
                        I doubt that campaign groups are created only 9go

                        I’ll tell you a secret, I’ve been digging this story for 10 years, and what is a campho group, how it works, and what it consists of.
                        Well, I say, you have not read, where does the battle of 6 begin? from the column?
                        horseradish with two, with artillery preparation by the Germans
                        After the artillery bombardment and the air raid, the German units perform.
                        the column relaxed great, - by air raid and artillery preparation [/ quote]

                        The name is not, because the commander’s surname has not yet been found, but please please, everything is written by Shane:
                        - the first tank battalion;
                        - one tank company from the second battalion;
                        - motorcycle battalion;
                        - company reconnaissance division;
                        - Two 103 artillery divisions;
                        - a platoon of 88-mm anti-aircraft guns 11 anti-aircraft battalion;
                        - 105 battery of mm guns of the hull 69 artillery regiment;
                        - battery of 53 regiment rocket launchers.
                        Agree forces are not small ...
                      10. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 34
                        Agree forces are not small ..
                        and?
                        did i speak small?
                        look
                        two 103 artillery divisions;
                        a platoon of 88-mm anti-aircraft guns 11 anti-aircraft battalion;

                        real means pt against any soviet tank
                        did not wait for tanks?
                        - company reconnaissance division;
                        there was no intelligence, this despite the fact that there 4 TBR was already known 4go
                        nebelfevery and aviation whom covered? from sleeping columns without intelligence?

                        The name is not, as the surname of the commander has not yet been found, but the composition

                        who do you want? Eberbach? Langerman? Laukert? wink

                        ps. do not be lazy spending an evening, read all sources, who, what and how
                      11. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 37
                        Quote: Stas57
                        After the artillery bombardment and the air raid, the German units perform.
                        When you read this, didn’t you think why the Germans reached Moscow? Is it because the frequent good artillery preparation and even more so the air raid was enough not to consider the defense of our infantry units, especially in the depths of our defense, as a force capable of stopping the advance of troops. Most likely, the German commander, acting according to this scheme, did not wait for reports on the complete destruction of our units around the bridgehead, but began to quickly drag units to this shore, clearly with the aim of continuing to move to Mtsensk, for which he paid - substituting them under attack and fire Katukov tanks ... So everything was there.
                      12. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 46
                        When you read this, didn’t you think why the Germans reached Moscow? Is it because the frequent good artillery preparation and even more so the air raid was enough not to consider the defense of our infantry units, especially in the depths of our defense, as a force capable of stopping the advance of troops.

                        I don’t like common phrases — they reached — they didn’t, we disassemble Clark, he laughed, Isaev retold.
                        why argue?
                        what there they thought was also stupid to invent, the presence of a powerful PTO means that they were waiting for tanks and waiting for HF

                        Most likely, the German commander, acting according to this scheme, did not wait for reports on the complete destruction of our units around the bridgehead, but began to quickly drag units to this shore, clearly with the aim of continuing to move to Mtsensk, for which he paid - substituting them under attack and fire Katukov tanks ... So everything was there.

                        pull what? porridge, word of honor, you’ll forgive me, once again nobody pulled the anti-aircraft guns, the tanks and infantry moved, the gun went to the flank, to cover the attack.
                        went over to cover.
                        Of the 8 items presented above, only half crossed.
                        By the way, why Katukova? In general, he is not alone there, Lelyushenko is actually just another jamb of Clark. Dee and why the battle of 6? And not 9? but even there are no sleeping columns, and 10go they are not, and 5go they are not.

                        in short, if you like this version of your will, I gave the book, think for yourself
                      13. 0
                        6 July 2013 20: 07
                        Quote: Stas57
                        in short, if you like this version of your will, I gave the book, think for yourself
                        Good. Thanks for the interesting information.
                      14. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 13
                        Quote: Stas57
                        they didn’t wait when they met both the 4 and 5, and therefore they brought the same anti-aircraft guns, and they dragged them in a critical situation, when they realized that the tankers could not do anything

                        The fact of the matter is that not when before this the Germans did not put these guns in the first line, since their range and power allowed it, and then they put them themselves under the fire of our tanks, which caused such great losses in these artillery systems. They could support their tankers because of the river, from a safe distance for them, but nevertheless fatal for our tanks.
                      15. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 22
                        Quote: svp67
                        The fact of the matter is that not when before this the Germans did not put these guns in the first line, since their range and power allowed it, and then they put them themselves under the fire of our tanks, which caused such great losses in these artillery systems. They could support their tankers because of the river, from a safe distance for them, but nevertheless fatal for our tanks.

                        I didn’t read it, 88 remained on that bank, this is not the first line at all
                      16. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 18
                        Quote: Stas57
                        is there such a thing? no, the division was deployed in battle formations, on a well-prepared defense

                        Everything suggests that this "battle group", in order to maintain the speed of advance to Mtsensk, in order to fulfill the task, neglected many things, in particular, having captured the bridge and the bridgehead, this group did not think to stay in place, it wanted to move forward - to Mtsensk believing that only weak infantry units were ahead, only this can explain the losses she suffered ...
                      17. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 24
                        Everything suggests that this "battle group", in order to maintain the speed of advance to Mtsensk, in order to fulfill the task, neglected many things, in particular, having captured the bridge and the bridgehead, this group did not think to stay in place, it wanted to move forward - to Mtsensk believing that only weak infantry units were ahead, only this can explain the losses she suffered ...

                        Well, like Clark, you can also pray to him,

                        at the same time, she was in such a hurry that 40 picked out the MSB for minutes, and then dragged a cannon into the village, cover the flank, and appointed a group to get around from the flank in order to go behind the defenders
                        while about weak infantry units, this is your imagination, out of the blue,
                      18. +3
                        7 July 2013 01: 41
                        Quote: Stas57
                        Well, like Clark, you can also pray to him,


                        Dear Stas27 and Svp67!
                        Read-read and could not stand it.

                        He himself comes from Orel. Orel-Mtsensk drove the highway by car and bus, examining the landscapes and landscape around the road, more than a dozen times. And, bearing in mind, the battles of the Katukovites and Langemans, I wondered what the chances of success were for both sides.
                        My opinion is as follows.
                        1. The Langemannites "got bogged down" - they took Orel on 2.10.41 practically without a fight, entering the city from the south, where there were still trams running along the streets. The defeat of the Bryansk Front under the command of Eremenko was quick and unexpected for everyone (from the Verkhony GK to the remnants of the Oryol garrison), but not for the Wehrmacht, and Guderian in particular. Considering "the trick is in the bag," the Germans did everything right (security, reconnaissance, etc.), but formally, without the due German pedantry.
                        2. As far as I know, there were 3 clashes: when the units of the Wehrmacht left Orel (Glebov cannot be found on the map now), in the middle of the road from Orel to Mtsensk in the area of ​​the 1 Warrior (the same bridgehead on the Lisitsa river - now it’s a small rivulet, a large stream), and on the approaches to Mtsensk.
                        3. Clark is an honored historian. Isaeva A. I respect for all his work.
                        But.
                        Katukov received baptism of fire in the hot battles of June-July of 41. The tactics of tank ambushes, as they say, endured and suffered.
                        4. Landscape.
                        Only the exit from modern Oryol is a more or less flat plain (leveled by road builders). Forests and copses approach the road close and often. From 42 km of the route, 30 km will have to go along a road that gradually increases in amplitude up and down. The difference in elevation reaches 30-40 m in areas with direct visibility of 2-3 km. And the entrance to Mtsensk, for heavy and low-power equipment, as they say, is ordered, especially if the dirt road is free from rains and thaws.
                        The truth is somewhere in between.
                        Guderian & Co. treated the matter with coolness (and this is evident from the September notes of the memoirs of "quick Heinz").
                        Katukov "squeezed out of the situation" everything that was possible.
                        Thank you.
                        Good luck to everyone.
                        hi
                      19. 0
                        7 July 2013 11: 53
                        I welcome the son)
                        1. The Langemannites "got bogged down" - they took Orel on 2.10.41 practically without a fight, entering the city from the south, where there were still trams running along the streets.

                        3.10
                        trams did not run, they stood on the street, at 10 am the substation was blown up, this is according to the book "Orlovshchina in the War"
                        As far as I know, there were 3 clashes: when the units of the Wehrmacht left Orel (Glebov cannot be found on the map now), in the middle of the road from Orel to Mtsensk in the area of ​​the 1 Warrior (the same bridgehead on the Lisitsa river - now it’s a small rivulet, a large stream), and on the approaches to Mtsensk.

                        not this way:
                        4.10 frontal reconnaissance 4 TBR, minus 4 of the tank at Katukov. that is, with 4.10, there can’t be any sudden meetings.
                        then the 5.10 battle at the Treasurer-Ivanovo Optuhi, where the gas station and the monument stands,
                        then 6.10 Joy,
                        7.10-8.10 respite,
                        9.10 Warrior-Sheino, 10 Mtsensk.
                        for understanding, a trip to the place is required, otherwise you don’t understand what and where
                        Clark is an honored historian. Isaeva A. I respect for all his work.
                        But.
                        Katukov received baptism of fire in the hot battles of June-July of 41. The tactics of tank ambushes, as they say, endured and suffered.

                        both are deserved, but both nevertheless lounged, whatever you say, the Clark version is still not true, it is not fatal, and not a disaster. Although in the original, Clark has a lot of mistakes on this episode and on dates and places and the overall rating.
                        Once again, this is not scary, both write about 41, and not about Katukov, and this is excusable.

                        Landscape.
                        Only the exit from modern Oryol is a more or less flat plain (leveled by road builders). Forests and copses approach the road close and often. From 42 km of the route, 30 km will have to go along a road that gradually increases in amplitude up and down. The difference in elevation reaches 30-40 m in areas with direct visibility of 2-3 km. And the entrance to Mtsensk, for heavy and low-power equipment, as they say, is ordered, especially if the dirt road is free from rains and thaws.

                        then there is no forest as a fact - everyone stopped in the stoves — the fields and roads are bare.
                        there is a photo in the book "Orlovshchina in the War"
                        At the same time, "ordered" is canceled, the Germans managed to drag 8.8 and 10 cm into Mtsensk and knock 5 square meters and 3 34ki
                      20. +4
                        7 July 2013 12: 47
                        Quote: Stas57
                        I welcome the son)

                        Mutually!

                        Quote: Stas57
                        for understanding, a trip to the place is required, otherwise you don’t understand what and where

                        I have a house near Otrada ...

                        The photos in the book (I'm talking about the forest along the roads) were probably taken after the war.

                        And the fact that the Germans "dragged in and knocked" - so they knew how to fight.

                        On the whole, and the general picture has emerged. For me, in any case - always, passing the 1st Warrior, I consider the "thirty-four" and "forty-five".

                        PS And b, to restore historical justice, I would change the T-34-85 to the T-70, which was really the first to break into the streets of Orel 5.08.43, and was hit near the station. There, at the place where the tank was hit, there is a street named after Lyashko - the commander of the dead crew. And the tank itself is modestly standing at the Museum-Diorama.
                      21. +1
                        7 July 2013 12: 52
                        The photos in the book (I'm talking about the forest along the roads) were probably taken after the war.

                        no, October 41

                        On the whole, and the general picture has emerged. For me, in any case - always, passing the 1st Warrior, I consider the "thirty-four" and "forty-five".
                        and border post

                        . And b, to restore historical justice, I would change the T-34-85 to the T-70, which was really the first to break into the streets of Orel 5.08.43, and was hit near the station. There, at the place where the tank was hit, there is a street named after Lyashko - the commander of the dead crew. And the tank itself is modestly standing at the Museum-Diorama.

                        no, they won’t change, and he’s well at Diorama, the main thing is that shkololo does not spoil
                      22. +1
                        7 July 2013 12: 21
                        But.
                        Katukov received baptism of fire in the hot battles of June-July of 41. The tactics of tank ambushes, as they say, endured and suffered.

                        I forgot to say,
                        that Shchekotikhin, and I think not without reason, considers the merits and self-activity of Katukov to be greatly exaggerated.
                        and there is logic, at least 5 colonels from divisions + 1 tank brigade and also a regiment, a bunch of staff officers, General Lelyushenko ....
                        and then Katukov tells everyone what to do and how to be ?? I doubt that the decision was most likely collegial — they decided together how to be and punish the Germans, but of course he had a certain freedom, and this could not be taken away.
                      23. +3
                        7 July 2013 13: 26
                        Quote: Stas57
                        that Shchekotikhin, and I think not without reason, considers the merits and self-activity of Katukov to be greatly exaggerated.

                        Yes, there is logic ...
                        There have been many cases when a team’s feat was attributed to one person (were there not enough awards for all?)
                      24. 0
                        7 July 2013 08: 23
                        Stas, good morning. If you return to the Aberdeen training ground, do not you think that the conclusions of the Americans are not entirely, mmm, true? Regarding the same air filter - in my opinion, it was there as an alloy for pistons and to focus on the filter - it means to look away from a real problem. Although maybe I'm overly dramatic. By the way. found Schekotikhin in djvu
                      25. +1
                        7 July 2013 11: 42
                        but you can throw himregorych in PM, I have it only on paper, it is inconvenient to quote
                        about amers, I threw a link to Pasholok, he has a part of the report, the whole is 600 + pages, and you need to read everything to draw conclusions, but according to re-sing Caruso .....
                        but there were problems, I look forward to Shein with a book on 42 a year
                      26. +3
                        7 July 2013 13: 12
                        Quote: Stas57
                        but you can throw itregorycha in PM

                        EgorEgorichyu - honor and respect.
                        I remember myself as a snotty first-grader in 31 school, when EE Shchekotikhin was the idol of all the guys and girls in high school ...
                        laughing
                      27. +1
                        7 July 2013 13: 30
                        yes, he's great)
                      28. +3
                        7 July 2013 18: 33
                        Quote: Stas57
                        but you can throw himregorycha in PM

                        I reread and realized that I did not understand ... laughing
                        I have no references to the creation of a deputy of the Oryol regional Duma.
                        I will say more - and did not buy the paper version.
                        hi
                      29. +1
                        7 July 2013 23: 09
                        This is his 2x volume on 41-42
                      30. +3
                        7 July 2013 23: 27
                        Quote: Stas57
                        This is his 2x volume on 41-42

                        I went into a bookstore, turned over both volumes of "The Battle of Oryol" in my hands, looked at the prices, and bought A. Isaev "Ten Myths ..." and "They All Must Be Killed" (I don’t remember the author), where almost all known facts of the DESTRUCTION of the civilian population in the cities of the USSR captured by the Wehrmacht from the first days of the war.
                      31. 0
                        7 July 2013 23: 59
                        I do not argue, Isaev is a serious historian (without quotes). And on the subject of what?
                      32. 0
                        7 July 2013 12: 46
                        Quote: rexby63
                        Regarding the same air filter - in my opinion, it was there as an alloy for pistons

                        Sorry, I’ll name another possible reason _ A handful of sand besides the filter in the system.
                        The method is trouble-free and easy to implement. Topical to this day!
                        wink
                      33. +1
                        7 July 2013 13: 16
                        Quote: Cynic
                        The method is trouble-free and easy to implement. Topical to this day!

                        But why?
                      34. 0
                        7 July 2013 21: 09
                        Quote: perepilka
                        But why?


                        a lot of dust accumulated in the engine and pistons and cylinders were destroyed. The tank was removed from the test mileage
                    2. 0
                      6 July 2013 18: 09
                      He didn’t do it, just in the conditions of complete impassability, the German troops could not act differently, what side protection would you set if the German tanks could hardly crawl along the Russian highway, but the Soviet T-34s moved quite easily in conditions of complete impassability and if you can take a convenient position on the flank of any motorized column that does not have freedom of maneuver, be it American German or Soviet, you can easily split it with a good powerful gun, thick enough armor and the main freedom of maneuver. It is not by chance that the Red Army successfully attacked at the first stage of the war in the autumn-winter period, when the maneuverability of the German army fell.
                      1. 0
                        6 July 2013 18: 16
                        He didn’t do it, just in the conditions of complete impassability, the German troops could not act differently, what side protection would you set if the German tanks could hardly crawl along the Russian highway, but the Soviet T-34 could move quite easily in the conditions of complete impassability and if you could take a comfortable position on the flank of any motorized column that does not have the freedom to maneuver,

                        and the same is not all true
                        right here, with the events described above, our 34s got head over heels when crossing a lousy stream
                      2. 0
                        6 July 2013 19: 08
                        I’ll add the testimony of Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, ... the enemy, on the night of February 11 (1943), broke through large tank forces through the alleged impassability west of Krivoy Torz to Grishino. This episode once again showed that the Russians have Western notions of terrain for Russians only a very limited value. The wide tracks of their tanks made it much easier to overcome the obstacles that were mud or deep snow for our tanks. E. Manstein ,, Lost victories ,,
                      3. +1
                        7 July 2013 14: 32
                        Treshki did thirty-four, both in speed and in cross-country ability, tests in Kubinka, a flag in hand, but the armor, compared to the T-34, at that time, was crap.
                        The Panther, claimed, is 5 km / h higher than the thirty-four, but, weight like the IS-122, is a ton lighter, and even as the engines burned, from overload crying T-34! Steers! Something like this what laughing Forgot to add. It is intended! laughing
                2. djon77
                  0
                  7 July 2013 15: 23
                  I would like you to post the ratio of losses of Germans and Soviet troops in the operation of the citadel
              3. 0
                7 July 2013 23: 29
                Quote: professor
                Discard the link on the German, everything is fine with the German.

                Here is a link to the site http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/tank_T-34.shtml -Russian-truth wink , there are reviews of the T34 German tankers, anti-tankers, Hitler’s military leaders + bibliography ...
            2. 0
              6 July 2013 16: 26
              References, proofs, certificates
              1. Constantine
                +6
                6 July 2013 16: 30
                You constantly demand from everyone
                References, proofs, certificates


                However, justifying your position, you somehow bypass this moment. You are not Wikipedia, nor is the Lenin Library in the flesh. Therefore, justify your position yourself at least once normally, and then demand from others. ;)
                1. -5
                  6 July 2013 17: 25
                  Already substantiated more than once, and not two. People are trying to prove something, right? First they have to provide some kind of evidence, right? If they give clear arguments, believe me, I will find them in more than a decent amount - with numbers, links, and statistics.
          2. 0
            7 July 2013 02: 19
            And here is a reference
            http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/combat-countdown/videos/top-10-tanks.htm
          3. 0
            7 July 2013 10: 07
            Quote: professor
            The T-34 was not recognized by any of the allies as "the best tank of the Second World War."

            Just for the sake of interest, I drove into a search engine The best tank of the second world war and what do you think is the result?
            For comparison, I looked and The best tank of World War II
            I will not say anything like that, but many vehemently dispute that thirty-four is the best tank.
            Here no one, in your words, does not recognize, but the argument is on!
            So there is a subject for debate?
            And yet, in your opinion, which tank is the best?
            1. +1
              7 July 2013 10: 47
              Quote: Cynic
              So there is a subject for debate?

              There is always a subject for dispute, people tend to engage in phalometry.

              Quote: Cynic
              And yet, in your opinion, which tank is the best?

              There are no "best" tanks. It is necessary to calmly compare performance characteristics, reliability, maintainability, etc.
              1. Cheloveck
                0
                7 July 2013 11: 24
                Quote: professor
                There are no "best" tanks. It is necessary to calmly compare performance characteristics, reliability, maintainability, etc.

                Well, Duc, and compare, hmm, calmly.
                Analyze.
                And then reasonably familiarize the community with your findings.
                You look and move forward to some kind of agreement ....
                1. 0
                  7 July 2013 11: 28
                  Quote: Cheloveck
                  You look and move forward to some kind of agreement ....

                  We won’t move forward, if, say, Bolivian and Mozambique tanks were compared, then there would be a chance, and so was the loss of time ...
          4. rolik
            +1
            7 July 2013 14: 20
            Quote: professor
            The T-34 was not recognized by any of the allies as "the best tank of the Second World War."

            Ah ha ha))))) Damn the circus is still here. They would have recognized him (mattresses, English) laughing
            The main recognition, even if it sounds strange, is recognition of him as the best tank by the Germans. They then EXACTLY knew what kind of tank it was. And the mattress and Abrash have an impenetrable tank laughing Although here I forgot:
            I remember from the discovery they showed the tactics of the Shermans against one Tiger, says the ovsky tank expert: "To bend 1 Tiger, you need to go in a number of 5-6 tanks, the Tiger notices the convoy at a distance of 800+ meters, throws the first flop and 5 carcasses on Sherman turn into shawarma, then the distance is reduced to 600 meters and again -1 coffin on tracks, when the distance is reduced to 100 meters, then a maximum of 2 Shermans remain alive, who will take revenge on the offender! " What a great tactic! laughing
          5. Slavon76
            0
            17 July 2013 05: 51
            Professor, do you argue only out of a love of argument? I find no other explanation. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dc3TFuOYmw Of course, Discovery is not at least an authoritative source, but did you require a link to recognize the T-34 as the best tank by at least one of the allies? Am I confusing anything?
      4. Fetel
        +1
        6 July 2013 18: 58
        Let me ask who he is recognized.
        - The Discovery Channel, as far as I know, is American.
        IMHO, according to many performance characteristics the best tank "Tiger", but in terms of mass, the number of vehicles destroyed by it, and many other indicators, the Americans recognized the best T-34.

        http://filmix.net/dokumentalenye/26390-discovery-10-luchshih-tankov-discovery-to
        p-10-tanks-2004.html
        1. +1
          7 July 2013 07: 59
          This is what touches me the most (annoying, annoying, FUNNY !!!), is that they are trying to compare the MEDIUM tank with the HEAVY one.

          Maybe, comp. KV-1, KV-2 with armor plates N 1,2,3, and 4.
  11. Xnumx kopeek
    +5
    6 July 2013 10: 57
    Quote: professor
    Quote: pavlo
    the second front when it was really open something miracle you are in feathers! That's when they saw that the fascists were a real kopek and they would have to share the cake, then they already started to fuss !!!!

    I don’t need to "poke", we didn’t graze geese in one meadow. angry More than half a million dead American soldiers - this is at least the same number of saved Soviet soldiers. Tales about the financing of Hitler by the Americans did not forget to mention here, and the Lend-Lease in their memory was not delayed.
    -
    -Not a fairy tale at all. Rockefeller sponsored 1917 too. Well, Lend-Lease is not a present either.
    under half a million dead Americans, did Vi mean Dunkirk 1940? where 1 mill Germans crushed 5 mill allies? Hitler graciously allowed Patton to transport the great allies into Churchill's arms.
    1. -7
      6 July 2013 11: 09
      Quote: 20 kopeek
      not fairy tales at all. Rockefeller and 1917 also sponsored it. Well, Lend-Lease is not a gift. But a rental.

      Tales of Rockefeller ... Hire only what survived after the war, and Stalin was in no hurry to return.

      And here is how the USSR helped Hitler.
      After the signing of non-aggression and trade agreements between Germany and the USSR in August 1939, our countries became allies. Germany provided the Soviet Union with a loan of 200 million Reichsmarks, for which German products were purchased. It was calculated by the USSR as a raw material. The last train with Soviet wheat proceeded west several hours before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union.
      ---------------
      So, in the 1924 year in Lipetsk, the Reichswehr Aviation School was created, which existed for almost ten years and disguised as the 4 th squadron of the aviation part of the Red Air Fleet. Many, if not most of the German pilots (Blumenzaat, Heinz, Makratsky, Foss, Teetsmann, Blume, Ressing, etc.) who later became famous studied in Lipetsk.
      ---------------
      At the end of 1939, a repair base for German ships was founded near Murmansk, in the spring of 1940, its ships participated in the aggression against Norway. The base actually operated before the start of the war between Germany and the USSR.
      ---------------
      The most secret object of the Reichswehr in the USSR was the Tomka, in which the Germans invested about 1 million. Marks. It was the so-called school of chemical warfare, located in the Samara region, in the immediate vicinity of the territory of the autonomous republic of the Volga Germans. Meanwhile, Part 1 of Art. 171 of the Versailles Peace Treaty forbade Germany both the use of asphyxiant, poisonous and similar gases, all sorts of similar liquids, substances or methods, and their import into Germany. At Tomka, methods of using toxic substances in artillery, aviation, as well as means and methods of degassing contaminated areas were tested. The research department at the school was supplied with the latest designs of tanks for testing toxic substances, with devices obtained from Germany, and equipped with workshops and laboratories.
      ---------------
      It is indisputable that the cooperation of the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the three named centers (with the code names Lipetsk, Kama and Tomka) was carried out contrary to the Treaty of Versailles, in accordance with Art. 168 of which the location and establishment of such military undertakings had to be agreed and approved by the governments of the main Allied and Associated Powers. The Soviet side received an annual material `` reward '' for the use of these facilities by the Germans and the right to participate in military-industrial tests and development. Chief of armaments of the Red Army I. Uborevich said that `` the Germans are the only outlet for us so far through which we can study achievements in military affairs abroad, moreover, from the army, which has very interesting achievements in a number of issues. ''
      1. Xnumx kopeek
        +6
        6 July 2013 11: 15
        But, Monsieur Professor, the word "fairy tales" is not an argument.
        - as Ford said / kotoriy limousine / - "If you deprive 50 richest families of money / the USA, essno /, then wars, revolutions, etc. will stop in the world" - belay
        1. -6
          6 July 2013 11: 22
          Henry Ford said a lot of stupid things in his life, in all the troubles in the world he blamed eats Jews, financed anti-Semitic newspapers, and Hitler reprinted his (Ford) books. However, during WWII, Ford shut up forever.
          However, where about Rockefeller?
          1. +1
            6 July 2013 12: 11
            I agree with the professor, especially since Ford delivered trucks to the Wehrmacht (1/3 of all trucks were Ford trucks) because of the anti-Semitic policy of the Wehrmacht, because Ford himself was a famous anti-Semite.
            1. ed65b
              +3
              6 July 2013 12: 43
              And the Czechs with their Skoda.
              1. +2
                6 July 2013 13: 39
                Well, the Czechs and tanks of the Wehrmacht delivered one t-38 which costs.
          2. Xnumx kopeek
            0
            6 July 2013 23: 52
            Quote: professor
            Henry Ford said a lot of stupid things in his life, in all the troubles in the world he blamed eats Jews, financed anti-Semitic newspapers, and Hitler reprinted his (Ford) books. However, during WWII, Ford shut up forever.
            However, where about Rockefeller?
            -
            --
            -if today 96% of the world press is Zionist, why would 4% not beat anti--?
            But Ford can be understood. Once a businessman came to him / let's say Rabinovich / suggested Ford buy rubber / for cars / Ford refused. Rabinovich came again. Again refused. And F. told Rabinovich to bring as much rubber as there is distance between Rabinovich’s nose and his foreskin. Then Ford ordered the secretary not to let Jews in to him at all. But all the same Rabinovich climbed F. once.
            -I invited Ford to the office window - to look at 10 carriages of rubber. Ford was horrified by thousands of kilometers of rubber. Rabinovich smugly explained: "This is 10 km, the exact distance between my nose and my foreskin, which I left 000 years ago in Berdichev." wassat
      2. ed65b
        0
        6 July 2013 11: 18
        I do not want to argue with you, but you are wrong on almost all points. There will be time to give a deal.
      3. +5
        6 July 2013 12: 30
        I do not agree with the professor, half of the open boxes, and the other warped truth, for example, the Lipetsk Aviation School, the chemical school and the tank school were closed after Hitler came to power.
        1. +1
          6 July 2013 16: 29
          Quote: cth; fyn
          for example, the Lipetsk Aviation School, the Chemistry School and the Tank School were closed after Hitler came to power.
          And the reason for this is that the Germans no longer needed them, since they "denounced" the terms of the Versailles Treaty and subsequently trained specialists on their territory openly ...
      4. +2
        7 July 2013 11: 39
        Quote: professor
        And here is how the USSR helped Hitler.

        Prof, you also like to tell fairy tales!
        On 30 on January 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Hitler the Reich Chancellor.
        What does the joint Soviet-German centers created in 1920-1930 have to do with Hitler?
        Next:
        Quote: professor
        So, in the 1924 year in Lipetsk, the Reichswehr Aviation School was created, which existed for almost ten years and disguised as the 4 th squadron of the aviation part of the Red Air Fleet. Many, if not most of the German pilots (Blumenzaat, Heinz, Makratsky, Foss, Teetsmann, Blume, Ressing, etc.) who later became famous studied in Lipetsk.

        The creation of the school was led by the "aviation inspection number 1" of the German defense administration. The use of the airfield and school facilities was free of charge, all expenses for the full equipment were borne by the German side. About 2 million marks were allocated annually for the maintenance of the school. The Germans in a very short time reconstructed production facilities, built two small hangars, a repair shop, and already on 15 on July 1925, a joint flight tactical school was opened. Initially, the 50 Fokker D-XIII fighters purchased by Vogru with funds from the Ruhr Foundation in the Netherlands in 1923 — 1925 served as the material base. 28 June 1925 year, the aircraft arrived from Stettin to Leningrad on the ship "Edmund Hugo Stinnes." In just eight years of the aviation school's existence in Lipetsk, 120 fighter pilots were trained or retrained there (30 of them were participants in the First World War, 20 were former civil aviation pilots) for Germany and a comparable number of military specialists for the Soviet Union .. At the beginning of 1930 's, even before Hitler came to power in Germany, German participation in the project began to decline markedly. Already at the negotiations in November 1931, the German side avoided discussing the possibility of turning the aviation school in Lipetsk into a large joint research center. This happened due to the rapprochement of the USSR with other West European countries, in particular with France. The Rapallo Treaty, signed between the RSFSR and the Weimar Republic in 1922, began to lose its relevance. On 15 of September 1933, the Lipetsk project was closed, buildings erected by German specialists, and a significant part of the equipment were transferred to the Soviet side. Since January 1934, the Air Force Higher Flight and Tactical School (VLTSH) began to operate on the basis of the liquidated facility.
        Quote: professor
        The most secret object of the Reichswehr in the USSR was the Tomka, in which the Germans invested about 1 million. Marks. It was the so-called school of chemical warfare

        On 21 on August 1926 between the USSR and Germany an agreement was concluded on the creation on the Soviet territory of a testing ground for the joint development and testing of toxic substances and their delivery vehicles. In 1929, the place for the landfill was finally determined in the area of ​​the village of Shikhani in the Saratov region, at the same time the new name “Tomka” appeared in the documents.
        1. +1
          7 July 2013 11: 40
          At the end of September, the experimental station began work. About forty flights were made, during which a neutral liquid was sprayed from different heights, which had physical and chemical properties similar to mustard gas. In the spring of 1927, the second phase of research was carried out - spraying mustard gas from different heights, testing gas masks and protective clothing for suitability, testing the effects of organic matter on animals. During these experiments, Unshlikht and the head of WOHIMU A. Fishman were present; The experiments and their results were highly appreciated by the Soviet side.
          According to the secret certificate of the head of the Red Army Reconnaissance Bureau of the Red Army, Berzin, in 1929, the first series of experiments was carried out at the new training ground - they tested a tank for contamination of the area, portable devices for infection, poured devices for aviation, samples of remote chemical bombs, chemical explosive bombs, devices for degassing , protective suits and gas masks. The work carried out in Tomka was of great importance for the development of the chemical forces of both countries. But a much more important result is the exchange of information on the state of chemical defense and attack on both sides. This knowledge, already during the Great Patriotic War, became a deterrent, thanks to which both parties established an unspoken "moratorium" on the use of chemical weapons.
          "Kama" is a German tank school created on the territory of the USSR. In all, over more than three years of the facility’s operation, about 40 Reichswehr officers received training. In 1929-30 10 German officers graduated from Kama courses, in 1931-32 - 11 German officers, and in 1933 g. - 9 people. During the work of the center, about 250 tankers were trained in total. Many graduates of the Kama tank school became outstanding Soviet commanders, including Hero of the Soviet Union, Lieutenant General of Tank Forces Krivoshein S. M.
          In 1933, after the advent of the National Socialist German Workers' Party led by Adolf Hitler, on the initiative of the Soviet side, the Rappal policy of economic and military-technical cooperation was curtailed, although de jure Germany continued to be considered a strategic partner of the USSR for some time.
    2. 0
      6 July 2013 16: 08
      Quote: 20 kopeek
      under half a million dead Americans, did Vi mean Dunkirk 1940?
      An interesting historical fact, but what at that time the United States was at war with Germany?
  12. +11
    6 July 2013 10: 59
    Waves continue to wander around the network regarding the American tests of the T-34 and KV-1 tanks, which took place from November 1942 to the end of the 1943 year.
    To begin with, it’s worth clarifying: a text published in different places is NOT a report. This is information transmitted by one of the employees of the Aberdeen training ground to a representative of the GRU.

    Around these estimates, a number of authors have arranged wet fantasies. So:
    - the tanks were not "special assembly". They were only supplied with an additional set of spare parts and prepared for transportation by sea.
    - We will leave wet fantasies about optics on the conscience of authors who heard the ringing, but do not know where it is. There were no complaints about the sights; they were against observation devices. There were problems with them for a long time.
    - There were no comparative tests of the T-34 with the T4 tank. The Americans only conceptually compared with the Convertible Medium Tank T4, aka the Convertible Medium Tank M1, as having the same suspension as on the T-34.
    - The "Cyclone" filter appeared in 1942, its installation had nothing to do with the Aberdeen tests. And yes, by the way, "Pomon", not filled with oil, is an extremely bad filter. Naturally, it was not refueled when shipped, and the Americans did not consider it necessary to refill the filter at home.


    By the way, both test participants survived them safely.







    1. +1
      6 July 2013 23: 41
      After reading something about the testing of our tanks in America. I was somewhat puzzled by the failure of the engine due to the lack of an air filter. I talked about this with the "competent people", they fully admitted that such tanks (without VF) could be accepted by military acceptance in winter, at the beginning of 42, and therefore get into the United States. The situation was then serious, and the threat of dust in winter conditions was not relevant, the slightest hitch with the accessories should not have disrupted the plan.
  13. ed65b
    +12
    6 July 2013 11: 16
    And how did we manage on such a G..e to stop the Germans and stop him and drive him back to Berlin, but they couldn’t use their super cars ???? All this suggests that in their own eyes they never saw a log.
  14. ed65b
    +12
    6 July 2013 11: 29
    Another small detail. The time was those to practice the beauty of the weld or the quality of metal processing. Tanks were needed like air. And they flowed. Moreover, for a short time they unfortunately remained in service burned and often together with the crew. so I somehow have an American opinion about the quality of pokh .. the result is important and he stayed with us and for the t-34. And about the repairs and failures of equipment, the Germans had plenty. There are mullen pictures. And with holes in the armor from t-34 shells. And under the Kursk burned along with ours and Challengers.
    1. +7
      6 July 2013 13: 36
      Quote: ed65b
      exercise in the beauty of the weld or the quality of metal processing

      Recently we visited the museum of V. Pyshma. There are a LOT of armored vehicles. I specially drew attention to the welded joints on tanks during the war. Almost all tanks that fought (even MS-1) - traces of hits and repairs are visible. Out of 3 T-34s, the VIK welding quality (visual measurement control) is very decent. Gas lines don't always look like this when hand welded. The quality of metal processing is the same. One, yes, made almost badly. But it looks like it is 42 years old and, it looks like, at the Sormovo plant. There were big problems with quality during that period. At the front, even the name stuck to them - "Sormovsky freak".
  15. Fin
    +10
    6 July 2013 12: 03
    Quote: professor
    For the distraction of the Japanese themselves and silence in the Soviet Far East?

    Quote: professor
    Are the Americans in a hurry? They fought since December 1941.

    The Americans entered the war after December 7, when the counteroffensive began already near Moscow with the help of previously removed Siberian divisions. And they fought mainly at sea. So what did they distract? Japan hosted the APR in a normal way; they did not need the USSR.
    Well, don't even joke about Africa, where Rommel with 2 divisions + Italian holidaymakers for 2 years was subscribing to the allies. And only when they numerically and technically began to surpass him many times, Montgomery won a "brilliant victory".
    1. -10
      6 July 2013 12: 11
      Stalin had to proudly refuse help (and never ask for it at all) and then now there would not be any questions and the urapatriots would shout loudly as "we broke the back of fascism alone", but history says the opposite - not alone, but in the composition of the coalition.
      1. Cheloveck
        +12
        6 July 2013 14: 10
        Quote: professor
        Stalin had to proudly refuse help (and never ask for it at all) and then now there would not be any questions and the urapatriots would shout loudly as "we broke the back of fascism alone", but history says the opposite - not alone, but in the composition of the coalition.

        I am begging you!
        Even modern haters of the USSR have a conscience to recognize
        "It is ironic that the defeat of Nazi Germany raised America's international status, although it did not play a decisive role in the military victory over Hitlerism. The credit for achieving this victory must be credited to the Stalinist Soviet Union, Hitler's odious rival." (Z. Bzezhinsky)

        As for the coalition, the contribution of countries such as Honduras, Liberia, Lebanon, Luxembourg and other Dominican Republics is clearly underestimated.
        Just imagine how the fighting efficiency of the Allies would decrease without Honduran bananas!
  16. +7
    6 July 2013 12: 08
    So why did they test it, that’s the question ... Borrow technology? Release at home? Advise what to improve?

    It makes no sense to prove that the T-34 is good and it makes no sense to reduce it to anti-Russian forces. T-34 gathered during the war, in evacuated factories, not by specialists, during the famine. What is the quality? The design is successful, simple, sufficient - that's all.
  17. andsavichev2012
    -5
    6 July 2013 12: 20
    They tested and compared the performance characteristics of their own, ours and German. They were preparing for the start of a land war, and before the start of World War II the tanks didn’t massively - there was no need.
    And for lovers to retell a stupid version of owls. historians, on the special delay of the 2nd front: the United States was not ready; in the 2nd World War the Japanese dragged them a little and their main war was there - on the sea / hawk and on the islands. After the battle of Hawaii they began to prepare the allied forces, and tanks, of course.
  18. ed65b
    +4
    6 July 2013 12: 55
    What is the word fashionable today, a coalition, a coalition of troops in Afghanistan. where there is everything a little bit but the main contribution was made by the USA.
    1. +1
      6 July 2013 13: 22
      Quote: ed65b
      What is the word fashionable today, a coalition, a coalition of troops in Afghanistan. where there is everything a little bit but the main contribution was made by the USA.

      Call it union, the essence will not change.
  19. +1
    6 July 2013 13: 15
    but what is the argument?
    Mikoyan said everything
    “- Military-economic supplies to us from our Western allies, mainly American Lend-Lease supplies, I rate very highly, although to a degree less than some Western authors.

    And, explaining his statement, he added:

    - Imagine, for example, an army equipped with all the necessary weapons, well trained, but whose warriors are not fed enough or worse. What kind of fighters will these be? And so when the American stew, the oatmeal, egg powder, flour, other products began to come to us, what weighty additional calories our soldiers received right away! And not only the soldiers: something was falling to the rear.

    Or take the supply of cars. The witches received, as far as I remember, taking into account the 400 travel losses of thousands of first-class cars of the time, such as Studebaker, Ford, passenger Willis and amphibians. Our entire army was actually on wheels and what wheels! As a result, its maneuverability increased and the pace of advance significantly increased.

    Yes ... ”Mikoyan said thoughtfully. - Without Lend-Lease, we would probably have fought for another year and a half too many. ”
    1. 0
      6 July 2013 13: 24
      Quote: Stas57
      Yes ... ”Mikoyan said thoughtfully. “Without Lend-Lease, we would probably have fought for another year and a half too many.”

      For me, Zhukov is a more serious authority, however, how many soldiers would the Soviet army lose in these half a year?
    2. 0
      6 July 2013 15: 50
      Quote: Stas57
      Witches received .... 400 thousand first-class cars of the time, such as Studebaker, Ford, passenger Willis and amphibians

      Why do witches need so much technology?
  20. +3
    6 July 2013 13: 16
    Quote: ed65b
    What is the word fashionable today, a coalition, a coalition of troops in Afghanistan. where there is everything a little bit but the main contribution was made by the USA.


    Go back to the history of the beginning of the twentieth century and you will understand that history repeats itself
  21. +2
    6 July 2013 13: 34
    PANCAKE!!! We started with tank tests at the Aberdeen Proving Ground ...
    Maybe finish?
    1. +4
      6 July 2013 13: 35
      Quote: kirpich
      PANCAKE!!! We started with tank tests at the Aberdeen Proving Ground ...
      Maybe finish?

      I join
  22. DPN
    +5
    6 July 2013 13: 46
    Yes, ***** this, they took the time to compare, while the 14-year-old boys and half-starved women worked at the factories. And the bourgeois were warm.
    T-34 Koshkin drove from Kharkov to Red Square under its own power.
  23. -3
    6 July 2013 13: 55
    Nowhere could I find the original T-34 test report in the USA, all refer to Russian sources. request
    1. +5
      6 July 2013 14: 46
      Prof, do not strain! Well, did not find the original report, what will change that? All the same, you won’t get away from the facts, for some reason the whole German menagerie beat the T-34 deliberately, regardless of the enemy’s perfection. Or is it not so? It’s not worth mutilating the merits of your grandfathers, Soviet tankers and soldiers who won the Second World War, at least I can assume that your grandfathers had (s) a completely different point of view, which is probably completely different from yours!
    2. +1
      6 July 2013 14: 51
      Prof, do not strain! Well, did not find the original report, what will change that? All the same, you won’t get away from the facts, for some reason the whole German menagerie beat the T-34 deliberately, regardless of the enemy’s perfection. Or is it not so? It’s not worth mutilating the merits of your grandfathers, Soviet tankers and soldiers who won the Second World War, at least I can assume that your grandfathers had (s) a completely different point of view, which is probably completely different from yours!
      1. +1
        6 July 2013 15: 28
        True eyes prick? Cons, as always, darling for her ....
      2. 0
        6 July 2013 15: 29
        True eyes prick? Cons, as always, darling for her ....
        1. +3
          6 July 2013 15: 39
          Something VO is stupid today, and gives out double comments ... And the minuses are also double! Well, no one loves the truth anyway ... And the Zionist lobby is pushing minus.
      3. andsavichev2012
        -4
        7 July 2013 14: 30
        T-34 stably beat t-3, t34-76 successfully coped with t-4, but 2-3 t-34-85 had to go out on one panther, I won’t write about tigers. A mass production tank for a country that became an industrial current by the mid-30s. Disadvantages, especially in the first series, are a lot. Smoke, lack of command optics and a radio station, crowded spaces, low quality of hardware and assembly, etc. Our tankers, by the way, rather willingly rode the English Matilda.
        The owls made him legendary. of. historians, as well as the PPSh submachine gun with a wooden stock, the Katyusha super-scarecrow, etc.
        The T-34 became, along with Panther, the founder of the dynasty of main tanks. In performance 34-85 reached the best performance characteristics in its class; in the variant, the t-43/44 survived to the 80s
        1. +2
          7 July 2013 17: 05
          Quote: andsavichev2012
          The owls made him legendary. of. historians, as well as the PPSh submachine gun with a wooden stock, the Katyusha super-scarecrow, etc.
          The T-34 became, along with Panther, the founder of the dynasty of main tanks.

          Do not find that following your logic and victory over the III Reich did
          Quote: andsavichev2012
          made owls. of. historians
    3. Roll
      0
      6 July 2013 18: 45
      crying Professor, many experts write stupidity, T-34 mass, and the cheapness is expensive, and the opinions of experts are largely nonsense, for example, here the T-34 sight is excellent, glass shit, right, but tank battles in 41 and 42 in the summer at a distance of up to 500 meters and Zeiss glass did not give much advantages, but at a distance of more than 1500 meters, yes, the trucks flew, so our tankmen drove a sledgehammer and repaired the track and track in a couple of hours, the welded seam is bad, but if the non-German subcaliber got into the tower, the seam quality is no longer important there, the filters, they just need to be changed before the attack and one thing is the Amerov dusty ground, the other thing is in the winter along the Moscow Region road where the air is fresh and the gears are just steel, so the device is noticeable, even if it’s more complicated I didn’t go would.
    4. ICT
      0
      6 July 2013 23: 08
      Quote: professor
      Nowhere could I find the original T-34 test report in the USA, all refer to Russian sources. request


      I can add only a couple of photos
      1. ICT
        0
        6 July 2013 23: 12
        number two (there de stole the article they did not find request , the description was slightly different from this article)
  24. +9
    6 July 2013 14: 22
    Quote: Fin
    The ridge was then broken in 42-43 years, and a second front was opened in 44.

    By the way. How many km. did they go from June 44 to May 45? And how many German divisions opposed them? In-in ...
  25. DPN
    +6
    6 July 2013 14: 36
    Yeltsin and his henchmen ravaged everything Soviet, the result of the war was won by the states with the British. It also instilled worship to everything western. Russia needs a victory at the flight level GAGARIN. Only after that, Russians can have pride in their COUNTRY !!!
  26. +5
    6 July 2013 15: 22
    The traditions of Soviet engineering and technology, especially in times of war, simplify the production of tanks and enable even low-skilled workers to do them. A rate on the amount to the detriment of including ergonomics. And then it was easy for anyone at the front, with blood and sweat, and our grandfathers defeated the Germans, who had military equipment more comfortable for work. But - not surpassing the Soviet counterpart in complex combat indicators.
  27. +1
    6 July 2013 15: 29
    The traditions of Soviet engineering and technology, especially in times of war, simplify the production of tanks and enable even low-skilled workers to do them. A rate on the amount to the detriment of including ergonomics. And then it was easy for anyone at the front, with blood and sweat, and our grandfathers defeated the Germans, who had military equipment more comfortable for work. But - not surpassing the Soviet counterpart in complex combat indicators.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. 0
    6 July 2013 19: 46
    Quote: Pimply
    And everything was decided only by this cry? No, he, without a doubt, made one of the decisive contributions. But everything was decided only by him?


    I wonder with, no matter how shouting (Cry) YOU would rise to the attack?

    ... Maybe - "A, WELL, FORWARD, S ,, KI, BL ,, D, PAD ,, Y, I will shoot, who does not go to the attack"
    I guessed QUICKY?
    1. -2
      6 July 2013 20: 56
      They usually go on the attack in silence, it’s more effective - it’s easier for the enemy to be taken by surprise and give instructions.

      And secondly - it’s not about shouting. The point is that wars do not win with caps.
      1. 0
        6 July 2013 22: 39
        Sorry, but I set the minus.
        I could not resist.
        ... Well, they don’t go (do not crawl) now the fighters are on the attack.
  30. Mill hill
    -3
    6 July 2013 22: 08
    It is nice to read real facts and estimates, and not justifying and sparing articles about Russia / MIC / politics, etc.
  31. +1
    6 July 2013 23: 02
    A very original article - but it raises many doubts about the competence of American T-34 testers ... And they tested it in the cold -40? But the Red Army fought on it all year round and in the conditions of hot summers and in severe frosts !!!
    Something I didn’t find anywhere about the major failures of Soviet technology due to weather conditions or because of the difficult terrain ... A full video of the war years in which the tanks and T-34 and KV perfectly advance both in the Finnish taiga and in the dusty Ukrainian steppe and in hot city battles ... But the video with the upcoming Matilda, Sherman and Grants - sorry or not at all, or it's very very rare ...

    So in general, we can conclude that these estimates of American specialists are not worth a penny broken ... And what could they really understand in tanks in the 42nd year - if they themselves had no experience at all with the combat use of armored vehicles at that time ??? :)))
    1. +5
      7 July 2013 01: 51
      Quote: Selevc
      if they themselves did not have any experience in the combat use of armored vehicles at that time ??? :)))


      Yes, they didn’t have ANY SCHOOL OF TANK ENGINEERING, NO ARMORED FORCES as such.
      If the German tankers frankly respected (and rightly feared the T-34 and KV-1), then the green, homegrown Amrykan tank builders simply did not know how they felt about such creations of the SOVIET MIC. Or does someone think that the stamp "frost, bear, vodka, balalaika" arose not so long ago?
      "The green toad crushed it," so we went overboard. You can slander and criticize anything you want.
  32. Xnumx kopeek
    -1
    6 July 2013 23: 35
    Quote: professor
    Henry Ford said a lot of stupid things in his life, in all the troubles in the world he blamed eats Jews, financed anti-Semitic newspapers, and Hitler reprinted his (Ford) books. However, during WWII, Ford shut up forever.
    However, where about Rockefeller?
    -
    ----
    what does "where" mean? You are a professor, you know how to read / true, only your "sources" / --- What kind of a professor? Wee is a repetitive yeshivi. Where does the school look. Is it world dignity?
  33. -1
    6 July 2013 23: 36
    And why did they ship our tanks at the beginning of 1942? Were the superfluous or calculated that they would do for us in the USA?
    1. +1
      7 July 2013 07: 32
      Exchange of experience and technology, I guess.
  34. Xnumx kopeek
    0
    6 July 2013 23: 43
    Quote: svp67
    Quote: 20 kopeek
    under half a million dead Americans, did Vi mean Dunkirk 1940?
    An interesting historical fact, but what at that time the United States was at war with Germany?
    -
    - So they were - or did the Chinese fight at Dunkirk? -
  35. Xnumx kopeek
    -2
    7 July 2013 00: 02
    Quote: Pimply
    Not ham, child, people who are smarter and older than you. If you are not in the know, the second front was opened much earlier than 1944. Military operations in Africa and the Pacific Ocean, the capture of Sicily in 1943. The landing in 1944 was due to the most serious preparations for the assault on the deeply echeloned defense of the Germans in Europe.
    -
    -typical Jewish monologue- wassat - older you can beat, even more purple, but smarter, hardly. Of course, the allied fights with the Hitler Youth / German pioneers / in Sicily and Africa played a decisive role in the war!
  36. Xnumx kopeek
    -1
    7 July 2013 00: 35
    Quote: Pimply
    The losses of the Nazi forces in the USSR / Allies ratios are somewhere around 70% / 30%. And this is natural. The hottest battles were fought on the Eastern Front. But if you take the Japanese?
    -
    -Krilato-pupirchaty, my dad beat the Japanese. -So there is no need to "take the Japanese". There is no need to take. Besides the sire ribi with rice inside.
  37. Xnumx kopeek
    0
    7 July 2013 02: 05
    Quote: Russ69
    The main losses of amers were on the Pacific front, but neither as nor on the West.
    -
    -because of the lack of America. troops in the west. wassat after Dunkirk / 1940 /
  38. Xnumx kopeek
    0
    7 July 2013 02: 22
    Quote: rolik
    Quote: Grishka100watt
    They supplied the Soviet Army with stew

    More precisely, they sold the stew for gold. Taking advantage of the current situation.

    -so the United States also helped the Wehrmacht, too - a policy of feeding the warriors — to mutual weakening- / Then come to the pie-sharing-Anglo-Saxon style /.- When Keitel was sitting in Nuremberg, then, looking at the allies, he asked-And they also defeated us ?? -
  39. +1
    7 July 2013 08: 53
    By the end of World War II, you need to understand who really won from this war?
    Yes, the USSR captured Berlin and half of Europe - but:
    1.they were half-starved and war-ravaged territories ... In the first post-war years in the USSR and in large cities of Eastern Europe, people really starved or led a half-starved existence ...
    2.Europe from Spain to the Volga lay in ruins, England also suffered greatly - although not as much as it deserved, unleashing this war ... :)))
    3. All infrastructure and many factories were destroyed and all this had to be created from scratch ...
    4. The war left behind hundreds of thousands of crippled people - the future contribution to the country's economy was also already very limited ...

    America by the middle of 1945 possessed:
    1. 75% of the world's gold reserves.
    2. The United States did not suffer any damage whatsoever from the 1st or 2nd World War ... American casualties in the 2nd World War can not be compared with the losses of the most active participants (potential competitors) of the USSR and Germany .. .
    3.America now kept in check half of Europe, during the war years it developed rapidly the aircraft and shipbuilding industry and other industries, ensuring itself a complete way out of the Great Depression ...
    4. The best world scientists worked in America - mainly the color of science exported from Europe ... And as a result, America possessed the most advanced technologies at that time - was the only country in the world who possessed a Superweapon - and immediately applied it and made it clear to everyone else - who is the main boss here !!!
    5. America has also arrogated to itself the status of the International Orbiter - having placed the UN on its territory and thereby giving itself the status of a state that is higher than others ...
    1. +3
      7 July 2013 12: 02
      But nobody argues with this - who won the most.
  40. georg737577
    +1
    7 July 2013 13: 19
    One can argue with the assessment of tanks given by the Americans, but given the American "mentality" in technical matters, it is objective. It is difficult for people accustomed to Caddilac and Lincoln to appreciate the benefits of Oki ...
  41. +3
    7 July 2013 15: 21
    And where is the technical report itself?
    This text wanders from site to site.
    On one only in the form of illustration was a snapshot of some kind of typewritten document unreadable.
    Where is the natural report?
    Mattresses are such bureaucrats that they should have this report and should have been declassified and published for a long time.
    But besides this text, in various variations, I saw nothing else.


    Where is the real report in the saliva of American tankers?
  42. 0
    7 July 2013 17: 10
    Quote: Pimply
    Yes? And let me find Soviet memoirs, where they speak of Sherman in the most excellent degree. Believe it?
    What to look for them - a tanker on a foreign car is quite enough.
    1. 0
      7 July 2013 18: 44
      Here I am about the same. History is not black and white. It is only a story. The past to be studied.
  43. R.R.A.
    0
    7 July 2013 19: 59
    Quote: bistrov.
    Quote: Pimply


    So what percentages are we talking about?

    As far as I know, all supplies of strategic materials under Lend-Lease were paid for in gold and precious stones. Military equipment, weapons, transport, which were not paid for, at the end of the war, were supplied according to completeness. The acceptance was very serious. The equipment should be fully stocked, up to the last key, painted. Imagine what it is if, for example, the Sherman-M-4 tank was equipped with leather coats for each crew member, the seats were covered with natural leather, there was an electric stove, a thermos, etc. Yes, all this disappeared even at the port of unloading. At the end of acceptance, the equipment was rendered unusable, by pressing, disassembling and loaded into the holds of ships, then for processing. Paid equipment and weapons were in service with the Red Army for a long time, for example Sherman M-4 until almost 60 years.

    I would like to add that they often sent outdated and low-quality equipment, for example, the General Lee tank in S.A. was called mass graves.
  44. +1
    7 July 2013 20: 07
    And for me, this is how the Americans got acquainted with the KV that they didn’t like, created something of their own, based on the Leningrad monster. And you all know this tank.
  45. lexe
    0
    7 July 2013 22: 07
    How much shit ... laughing And the fact that there are 2 antagonistic states measured the basis of the foundations of those years, tanks together! Moreover, the United States acted as the last resort, such as state verification laughing and after several years, UNMISSIBLE chtoli?
    Lend-lease ... It seems to me that the USA just wanted to put their women for machines, but there was no need like ours ... Undermining the basics of human life is the main man in the family. Money in the game for peace is not the main thing. the behavior of society, in this the USA is a master (and a tool of war). So tell me on this simple example (tanks) -WORLD GLOBAL? And is WAR just poker? in order to encourage people to live differently? Just think about it ... but the Germans were more honest. They fought until they were completely destroyed, and we? They wanted to destroy us and we to them the GDR ...
  46. The comment was deleted.
  47. 0
    8 July 2013 15: 35
    Speaking about lendlis, they mean technology
    These are two bed bugs half the priest.
    The main benefit was in rare earths for armor metal.
    But paid in gold, so this is not help, but a trade agreement.
    They attribute to themselves non-existent.
    1. Cat
      0
      8 July 2013 16: 44
      Quote: Thirsty for the wind
      Speaking about lendlis, they mean technology
      These are two bed bugs half the priest.
      The main benefit was in rare earths for armor metal.
      But paid in gold, so this is not help, but a trade agreement.
      They attribute to themselves non-existent.

      Stalin, unlike you, was not a fool. And he perfectly understood that there was no way to win a gold war, but tanks easily. Therefore, he changed the precious metal to armor, to shells, fuel, etc.
      And would that gold remain in the Union - to the point? Well, in the 90s there would have been a couple of oligarchs more, just business.
      And so, lend-lease supplies saved some lives, brought Victory closer for some days. And do not care how much "theirs" hucksters have earned there.
      But the majority of today's "economists" do not take this into account - because in their system of values ​​there is no concept of "human life", there is only a concept - "amount in currency."
  48. +3
    8 July 2013 17: 54
    Who would have thought that the 2-X TEST TEST REPORT from the time of the 2-th World could cause such a flurry of passions and emotions!
    I don’t know if this is a record, but more than 650 posts per article are impressive ...
  49. zWary
    0
    10 July 2013 11: 19
    Of course, criticizing someone is easier than objectively evaluating your products. I wonder how the Americans evaluated those aircraft and tanks that they sent us during the war years? According to the recollections of our military, their planes burned "for a sweet soul."
    1. 0
      10 July 2013 11: 29
      Quote: z
      According to the recollections of our military, their planes burned "for a sweet soul."

      All planes are burning
      Quote: z
      "for a sweet soul."

      But setting them on fire is another question.
      Pokryshkin, Alexander Ivanovich, spoke very well about them, specifically about Aircobra, only positively.
      hi
  50. -1
    13 July 2013 05: 08
    as far as I know, the design of the t 34 subsequently influenced the entire world tank building
  51. Slavon76
    0
    17 July 2013 06: 01
    Professor, do you argue only out of a love of argument? I find no other explanation. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dc3TFuOYmw Of course, Discovery is not at least an authoritative source, but did you require a link to recognize the T-34 as the best tank by at least one of the allies? Am I confusing anything?
    1. 0
      17 July 2013 10: 46
      Quote: SlavOn76
      Professor, do you argue only for the love of arguing?

      In my opinion, for arguing, dear Professoryou need to be grateful.
      Like Socrates said
      Truth is born in a dispute

      I won’t go into the jungle of philosophy, but in a dispute you need to clearly track the subject of the dispute.
      We are all not free from delusions and mistakes.
      That's just
      The latter are divided into unintentional (paralogisms) and intentional (sophisms).

      But sophistry is the baggage of disputes of the respected Professorbut rich, and not just him.
      You can draw your own conclusion.
  52. Slavon76
    0
    17 July 2013 12: 07
    Dear Cynic! Of course, I am VERY interested in your philosophical exercises, but, as you yourself said: “I won’t go into the jungle of philosophy, but in a dispute you need to clearly track the subject of the dispute.” The conversation was about the fact that the Professor asked for evidence of recognition by any country of the anti-Hitler coalition of the T-34 tank as the best tank of WWII. I replied with a link. CHADNT?
    1. 0
      17 July 2013 12: 45
      Quote: SlavOn76
      Chyadt?

      Answered in PM.
      1. Slavon76
        0
        17 July 2013 13: 06
        Entirely and completely share your point of view.
        Regarding the Professor: I couldn’t resist, got in, became KO, I confess...
        1. 0
          17 July 2013 17: 21
          Quote: SlavOn76
          became KO

          Well, why is it so tragic, just EXTREME.
          Yes, even
          Quote: SlavOn76
          Chyadt?

          Quote: SlavOn76
          KO

          You'll remember again
          chepuwin

          checkurtab

          I think it's time to stop our dialog wink
          hi
  53. 0
    April 20 2015 19: 59
    In general, in those conditions and with a lack of specialists, materials, time, in hunger and devastation, the best tank in the world, the T-34, was made by hungry women and children. I would look at these fat, narcissistic, thick-headed Americans if I could put them in our place and in the same conditions in which our people worked. They produced nothing at all - that’s a fact. And all their weapons and equipment are complete G... BUT, and you can’t argue with that. The facts speak about this.
  54. 0
    18 June 2019 13: 38
    Quote: Sirocco
    Nevertheless, despite all these shortcomings, even tank building, even in aviation, it is WE, our grandfathers, who broke the backbone of fascism, which was born with the support of the same moneybags from England and the USA. Who watched the war, quietly standing on the sidelines, waiting for someone whom.


    Where did Lend-Lease go? After saturating our army with American cars in 1943, we went to the West...