Military Review

Theodoro: the last fragment of Byzantium

31
Theodoro: the last fragment of Byzantium



The small principality in the Crimea lasted more than 20 years after the fall of Constantinople and left its mark in Moscow

The impregnable city of Mangup is high in the mountains. Princes and princesses from the noble family of Palaeologus. The people who spoke almost German, who were able to fight off the Turks even 20 years after the fall of Constantinople. Double-headed eagle on the coat of arms. And yet - the thread that stretches today, in the Moscow district of Khovrino. This is not a fantasy, but regular episodes from stories Crimea, little known to the majority of Russians.

Three centuries of history

The Principality of Theodoro, it Gothia (Θεοδόρο, Γοτθία) existed on the Crimean land 270 years - from 1204 to 1475 year. For comparison: Catherine II annexed Crimea to Russia just 230 years ago - in 1783 year. Theodoro's country was small: it occupied only the southernmost part of the peninsula - the mountains and part of the coast to Alushta, which since ancient times was mastered by both the Greeks, and the Romans, and the Byzantines.

The population of the principality consisted mainly of the Crimean Goths, Greeks and Alans, professing Orthodoxy, and by the end of the existence of the principality was about 150 thousand people. However, in recent decades, the percentage of Crimean Tatars, Karaites and other Turks, who for various reasons wished to make friends with the Byzantine civilization, has significantly increased. The capital of the principality, the city of Mangup, built on a mountain not far from modern Sevastopol and Bakhchisarai, was often called Theodoro at that time. And the main port was Avlita - in fact, already within the boundaries of modern Sevastopol.

The fourteenth and fifteenth centuries in the Crimea were a turbulent time. Theodoro was attacked on one side by the Mongol-Tatars, on the other - by the Genoese, who gradually conquered the coast from the principality. The Italians climbed this “end of the world” at that time because even though it was far from the Apennines, it was not at all the edge: in the 13th and 15th centuries, the Great Silk Road moved to the shores of the Black Sea, which fabulously enriched enterprising merchants. Having pulled the incomes of the principality on themselves, the Genoese contributed to its gradual decline.

Part of the Crimean ready was forced to go into "Italian" citizenship, but the Genoese called their possessions in Crimea the capitancy of Gothia. From the north, Theodoro first attacked the Tatar teg Nogai in 1299 (managed to fight off), a hundred years later failed to capture it and the hordes of Khan Edigei, but here part of the land was lost. Having retreated to the mountains around Mangup, the Crimean Christians lasted another seventy years and were defeated by a new enemy, the Turks, only when the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians lost their independence for centuries.


Maria Paleologina, Princess Mangup.


The origin of the princes (or, as they themselves called themselves authents) Theodoro has not yet been clarified: they could be representatives of the noble Armenian-Greek family of Gavrasov, but they could really come from the dynasty of the Comneni and Paleologos (as they themselves asserted). Therefore, the small principality occupied a prominent political and economic place in Eastern Europe, and the rulers of other countries wanted to intermarry with its rulers of “royal blood”. Maria Paleologina, Princess Mangupskaya, was the wife of the Moldavian ruler Stephen III the Great, her aunt Maria Gotha was married to the last lord of another Byzantine fragment, Trapezunda Empire, David the Great Comnenus.

Last years

They crushed the "last fragment of Byzantium," like Constantinople, also Turks. The siege of impregnable Mangup lasted five months. The courageous Theodorites managed to kill almost the entire selective corps of the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire, but the Turks eventually took possession of the fortress with exhaustion and cunning. Almost the entire population of the city - 15 thousand people (at that time - the city is quite decent size) were either killed or stolen into slavery.

On the plateau around Mangup, during the excavations of the basilica, conducted by the archeologist N. I. Barmina, tombs literally slaughtered with skeletons were found - in one of them, before 17, many of them had signs of blows with a heavy blunt instrument. Many skeletons had upper or lower limbs chopped off. Burials were found in the most unexpected places. Vine-crushed (tarapanov) excavations were used as graves, and sometimes the bodies were only slightly covered with earth and stones.

When the Mangup Kadylyk was formed from the former lands of Theodoro, it remained Christian for a long time. The fact is that after the conquest, the Turks showed wisdom and did not finish off the remnants of defeated enemies, saving themselves from the exhausting "partisan". The lands of the Sultan's domain, on which the Christian population lived, were outside the jurisdiction of the Crimean khans. Muslims were even forbidden to settle in them for a long time. The language of the local Christians remained Gothic, that is, the German dialect, as mentioned by Austrian diplomat Ogier Ghislain de Busbek in a letter from 1562 of the year. The letter contains a list of local words and phrases from 96, as well as a song recorded by the ambassador in Gothic.

In subsequent centuries, ready, of course, gradually assimilated, and their traces in the Crimea today are visible only in the blondness and northern European features of the individual Crimean Tatars and Karaites. The historian Andrei Burovsky writes that the last villages of the Goths still existed in the Crimea even in the 18th century, but because of some kind of conflict, their inhabitants were killed by the Tatars literally on the eve of the annexation of the peninsula to Russia. Only one teenager, who sailed on a boat to the sea, managed to escape - he was picked up by Russian sailors.

Mangup

The well-preserved ruins of the fortress of the capital of the principality of Theodoro can be seen today. The stronghold is built on top of Mount Baba-Dag, towering above the level of the surrounding valleys on 250 meters, and above sea level - on 583 meters. The place was chosen not only because of the cliffs, but also because there was water here - two springs were beating from the ground.


The ruins of the city of Mangup.


Baba-dag and without fortress walls is extremely inconvenient not only for storming, but also for simple lifting. The mountain is a separate-standing "table" plateau, steeply ending in the south. From the north side it is difficult to climb it, but it is possible: there steep precipices have four extended protrusions separated by gentle ravines. Their residents blocked the powerful walls with towers and passed only guests with peaceful intentions.

The first fortifications on the mountain were built in the 5th century, when the Goths only moved to the Crimea, and in the 6th century a monumental basilica was built on the plateau. So Mangup (as it was then called Doros) becomes the center of the Gothic diocese in the Crimea, and even for some time the Doros Metropolis, which united Christians in vast territories - from the Khazar Khaganate to the North Caucasus and Khorezm.

But the period of the heyday of Theodoro became the time of the highest flourishing of Mangup. It was from this era that numerous artificial caves, casemates, defensive walls, basil foundations and citadel ruins at Cape Teshkli-breaker have been preserved. The citadel itself and the remains of the defensive walls are best preserved.

In the largest cave, called the Drum-Koba, there is a column. If you hit it, you will hear a sound like a drum beat. It is believed that there was a prison in which notable prisoners, including Russians, languished under the Turks. So, in Mangup in the year 1569 they kept in custody the Russian ambassador Athanasius Nagy with his comrades, and in the years 1572 – 1577 - Vasily Gryazny.

Unfortunately, only the foundations remained of the most magnificent buildings of Mangup - the palace of princes and the magnificent temple of Saints Constantine and Helena - but cave churches and monasteries are preserved along the cliffs, in some places it is possible to see traces of fresco painting.

From Crimea to Khimki-Khovrino

Now it is this route - almost to Khimki-Khovrino (or rather, to Sheremetyevo) airplanes fly from the Crimea to Moscow - only two hours of flight. In the Middle Ages, the path took many days, sometimes - a whole month, on horseback, on bad roads, through slingshots and abreast of defensive lines. But the residents of Theodoro overcame him, building their ties with the Muscovite state.


Ruins of the city wall of Mangup. Photo: Oleg Makarov / RIA News


The Grand Duke of Moscow, Ivan III, sent ambassadors to the Crimea to intermarry with the princes of Theodoro. But judging by the current Moscow toponymy, the most notable was the noble family of the Khovrins, who later became Moscow boyars and split in the 16th century into two kinds - the Golovins and the Tretyakovs.

At the end of the XIV century, the ancestor of the Khovrins moved from the Crimean city Sudak to Moscow. According to some data, his name was Kuzma Koveya and he was just a rich merchant, according to others - it was an aristocrat Stefan Vasilyevich. Detractors said that the surname Khovrin comes from the old Russian word "Khovra", that is, an untidy, treacherous person. But they are objected that Stefan Vasilyevich was not just a noble, but even a royal family, and therefore Khovrin was distorted from the Byzantine imperial dynasty of Kommen. Like, the name Komnen turned out to be inconsistent for the Russian language, and it was immediately reassigned to Comrin, and later - Khovrin.

In the “Russian genealogical book” published in the XIX century by Prince Peter Dolgorukov, Prince of Gothia Stepan (Stefan) Howra was really mentioned, who was received with honor by Prince Dmitry Donskoy or his son Prince Vasily, received a courtyard in the Kremlin, marked on the ancient maps of the city. In old age, Stephen took monasticism under the name of Simon, and his son Gregory Khovra played an important role in the founding of the Simonov monastery. But those who do not believe the genealogical books, object that the records of the princely origin of the boyars of Khovrina were forged, and initially only the merchant Kuzma was mentioned in the Russian chronicles.

But in any case, the Byzantine-educated Kovrins, who had become podnatorevshie in competition with the Genoese on the Great Silk Road, looked advantageous in the then wildish Muscovy. They became a kind of finance ministers - hereditary treasurers of the Moscow principality.

In 1585, Khovrin was granted land on the Likhoborka River north of Moscow, and a village was founded there, named after the boyar. Today it is already the outskirts of an overgrown metropolis, where more than 80 thousands of people live. Interestingly, how many of them know about the connection of the name of their area with the Byzantine, not the merchants, not the aristocrats from the Crimea?
Author:
Originator:
http://rusplt.ru/world/feodoro-posledniy-oskolok-vizantii-9594.html
31 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Turkir
    Turkir 1 May 2014 10: 33
    +5
    Where did the Goths in Crimea, speaking German, professing Orthodoxy come from?
    From Notes of a Gothic Toparch written in Greek with Westberg's commentaries?
    If this is so, then in this note there is not a word about Crimea, Kherson, about Cafe and Panticapaeum.
    By the way, if Westberg refers to Konstanin Porphyrogenitus, then he, whether deliberately or erroneously writes the word Klemata (history does not know such a city), and KB Klimata, as the southern region of Crimea, and this term is only found in him. "Note of the Gothic toparch" has nothing to do with the Goths, and, for the Crimea, too.
    Therefore, it is interesting to know the sources used by the author of the article.
    If Sergei Petrunin answers me, it is possible and in a "personal", I will be very grateful to him.
    I have been interested in the history of Crimea for a long time.
    1. Horde
      Horde 1 May 2014 11: 23
      +4
      Well, here again the truth climbs like an awl from a bag
      image of this noble Byzantine queen, and around what language is written? yes everything too, it is written in RUSSIAN, not Greek, not Latin, not German, who invented such crap?, namely Russian ...


      http://www.istorie-pe-scurt.ro/celalalt-stefan-cel-mare/poza1_62/
      for some reason, clear pictures are not inserted

      By the way, not German, but rather you’re going, because Karaite Jews lived in Crimea for a long time and their native Yerey language is German-Yiddish ...
      1. Turkir
        Turkir 1 May 2014 21: 02
        0
        By the way, not German, but rather you’re going, because Karaite Jews lived in Crimea for a long time and their native Yerey language is German-Yiddish ...

        Germany is not, but is there Yiddish?
        Perhaps the German language came from Yiddish?
        1. inkass_98
          inkass_98 7 May 2014 16: 33
          0
          Quote: Turkir
          Perhaps the German language came from Yiddish?

          No, just Yiddish is an old-upper German language. So everything is correct.
      2. GDP
        GDP 7 May 2014 15: 44
        0
        Found a picture in high resolution:
        http://www.graal.org.ua/en/theodoro-principality/history-of-theodoro/207-mangupg


        eraldy
        Telst strongly resembles a village-Russian script, moreover, he was even able to read a few words:
        clearly read in Russian
        words - Madam
        - Stefan (her husband) and others ...

        Certainly neither language nor writing is German!
    2. Horn
      Horn 1 May 2014 13: 10
      +3
      In addition, even the "historian is ready" Jordan, did not find RELIABLE evidence that the language of the ready was German.
    3. Fedor
      Fedor 1 May 2014 13: 52
      +5
      Goths in the Crimea, and even wider throughout the Northern Black Sea coast, appeared around the 4th century AD during the great migration of peoples. There they divided into two branches, the Ostrogoths, who remained in place, and the Visigoths, who moved to Western Europe right up to the Iberian Peninsula. You can read more about this in various encyclopedias, starting with Wiki. At one time, after the conquest of Crimea, Catherine II resettled the Christian population of Crimea (under the general name Greeks, although only Greek Greeks actually were among them, and the rest joined as Orthodox carriers GREEK faith: These were Crimean Tatars-Christians, Volokhs, descendants of the Alans, Goths, etc.) to the free lands of the Wild Field, i.e. to the territory of the current Donetsk region. The immigrants called the new settlements by analogy with the settlements in the Crimea, where they came from. So Yalta, Urzuf (Gurzuf), Old Crimea and Mangush (Mangup) appeared in the Donetsk region. This is a note.
      1. Turkir
        Turkir 1 May 2014 21: 06
        +2
        Let’s leave VIKA alone - Specifically, what is the name of the photographer, Goths in Crimea?
        This is very interesting when they write like this: someone, somewhere, somehow appeared, from the air, probably and immediately from scratch.
        -------------
        Yalta (Jalda).
        This is a note.
      2. Seal
        Seal 1 May 2014 23: 54
        +3
        Oh, these lovers of quoting "various encyclopedias", including "wikis" :)))))))))))) Instead of giving the original (original) of any document, well, there is an order of the Great Gothic King "I order my faithful Goths divided into two parts. One part called the Ostrogoths and they, the Ostrogoths, I trust to go to Rome to take. The other part to be called Visigoths and to hell with them, and not Rome, let the Pyrenees go conquer. " Well, or the Decree of some next Caesar, emperor, consul, proconsul, such as "In view of the fact that the godless Goths, divided into two parts, go to us, the great and invincible ancient Romans by war, I order: 1. To recruit two additional legions of ancient Roman troops. 2. To find money for hiring troops in such and such a way. 3. Provinces in this way send so many people to build fortifications on the way "ready" .. "and so on. At least something, but GENUINE. After all, these amateurish retellings of "encyclopedias" of various "instructors" are really tired and tired.
        And further. Why AFTER the conquest of Crimea to resettle Christians from Crimea? Logically, it would be the other way around, to bring Christians to Crimea.
        Although Fedor, "knowing very well from encyclopedias" the so-called "ancient history" a little confused. The eviction of Christians from Crimea, by the way, by the Suvorovs, took place a little BEFORE the annexation of Crimea to Russia. But the meaning does not change very much. Despite the fact that Crimea had not yet been annexed, our fleet was already based in the harbors of the Crimea, and our artillery batteries were stationed in a number of fortifications on the southern coast. That is, everything went towards joining. So why, just before the annexation of the Crimea, withdraw the Christian population from there?
        1. Turkir
          Turkir 3 May 2014 10: 01
          +1
          Your logic is flawless.
          The original, the source, is called the photographer.
          Moreover, these German-Swedish historians still all lies are written.
          And the Russian children believe them.
          Regrettably.
          If you want to know more from me, write me an email in PM and I will give you a list of authors and books that you can trust.
          Respectfully, to a thinking person ..
  2. vvkroxa
    vvkroxa 1 May 2014 10: 55
    +11
    There is some kind of special spirit on Mangup. A very interesting place. But in order to feel it, you need not having run for half an hour to look at it, but calmly, leisurely wandering around for a couple of days, you can stop downstairs in the village of Khoja-Sala, have a drink of wine in the evening and wander in the morning with radial exits in the vicinity. Nearby not only Mangup but also many interesting things within the framework of a one-day exit, the same brother of Mangup Eski-Kermen for example.
  3. Kaetani
    Kaetani 1 May 2014 11: 30
    +3
    Crimea is generally a special place. Having lived in Crimea in 95 for several months (Partenit, Massandra, Yalta) fell in love and still love this land.
  4. Gad
    Gad 1 May 2014 11: 44
    +11
    I have long dreamed of visiting Mangup and last year I visited. Impressive !!! View of Mangup.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 1 May 2014 21: 08
      +1
      Thank you for a photo. fellow
  5. ando_bor
    ando_bor 1 May 2014 12: 53
    +6
    Well, that’s it, you have to go to the Crimea, walk through the ruins, love history.
  6. Yankuz
    Yankuz 1 May 2014 18: 08
    +1
    Quote: ando_bor
    Well, that’s it, you have to go to the Crimea, walk through the ruins, love history.

    "And everything is so decorous, noble, in the old way!"
  7. uzer 13
    uzer 13 1 May 2014 21: 35
    +2
    The Gottes really moved to other places during the time of Charlemagne, because they were not able to fight with him. Most of their new settlements are located in Poland, but even in Russia traces of the West Gottes were discovered near Yelets. The Crimean Gottes undoubtedly have more ancient origin and their language is significantly different from Lower German. Based on a historical document, you can get some idea about this language:


    Here they are:
    Broe - panis, bread Plut - sanguis, blood Stul - sedes, chair Hus - domus, house Wingart - vitis, grapes Reghen - pluvia, rain Bruder - frater, brother Schuuester - soror, sister Alt - senex, old man Wintsch - ventus, wind Siluir - argentum, silver Goltz - aurum, gold Kor - triticum, grain Salt - sal, salt Fisct (fisch?) - piscis, fish Hoef - caput, head Thurn - porta, gate Stern - Stella, star, Sune - sol, sun Mine - luna, moon Tag - dies, day Oeghene - oculi, eyes, eyes Bars - barba, beard Handa - manus, hand Boga - arcus, bow Miera - formica, ant Rinck sive Ringo - annulus, ring Brunna - fons, source Waghen - currus, Apel cart - pomum, apple Schieten - mittere sagittam, shoot arrows
    Schlipen - dormire, sleep Kommen - venire, come Singen - canere, sing Lachen - ridere, laugh Griten - flere, cry Geen - ire, go
    Breen - assare, burn Schuualt - mors, death Knauen Tag - bonus dies, good afternoon
    Jel - vita sive sanitas, life or health
    Jeltsch - vivus sive sanus, alive and well
    Jel uburt - sit sanum, may he be well
    Marzus - nuptiae, wedding, marriage
    Schuos - sponsa, bride Baar - puer, boyfriend Ael - lapis, stone Menus - sago, meat Rintsch - mons, mountain range Fers - vir, husband, man Statz - terra, country, land Ada - ovum, egg Ano - gallina, chicken Stap - capra, goat Telich - stultus, stupid Gadeltha - pulchrum, beautiful Atochta - malum, bad Wichtgata - album, white Micha - ensis, sword Lista - parum, small Schediit - lux, light, beam Barrotsch - voluntas, will Cadariou - miles , warrior Kilemschkop - ebibe calicem, have a drink
    Tzo warthata - tu fecisti, you did it
    Jes uarthata - ille fecit, he did it
    Ich malthata - ego dico, I say this
    When he was told to count, he scored in this way:

    1 - ita
    2 - tua
    3 - tria
    4 - fyder
    5 - fynf
    6 - seis
    7 - sevene
    8 - athe
    9 - nyne
    10 - thune
    11 - thunita
    12 - thunetua
    13 - thunetria
    14 - thunefyder
    15 - thunefynf
    16 - thuneseis
    17 - thunesevene
    18 - thuneathe
    19 - thunenyne
    20 - stega


    30 - threithyen 40 - furdeithien 50 - fymfeithien 60 - seiseithien 70 - seveneithien 80 - atheithien 90 - nyneithien 100 - sada 1000 - hazer
    Busbek also recorded a verse of a song (cantilena) sung by the Goths: Wara wara ingdolou: scute gira galtzu hoemisclep dorbiza ea.
    Lat.
    Sensim sensim impletur, Haec regio tota qua est, Navis quum illic constiti (t)
    The content of this song, judging by the Latin text, consisted of approximately the following:
    "Little by little, slowly filling up
    all that is in this area
    boat when you pester here ... "
    1. Horn
      Horn 2 May 2014 13: 58
      +1
      By the way, all these "sanguses" and "sedesses with domuses" are nothing more than a "spoiled telephone": the addition of the Latin endings "us" to the words. And so, it's just a chair, a house, moisture.
  8. Turkir
    Turkir 1 May 2014 21: 38
    0
    Do I need to know the history and where is Lukashenko going?
    Having visited such a website http://hetman.by/vpoiskaxslavyan.html you will learn that there were no Slavs and we are ready to mix with the Balts.
    You immediately understand that the fifth column in Belarus is working to the full.
    And Lukashenko is sleeping.
  9. roman72-452
    roman72-452 1 May 2014 23: 13
    0
    Thank you. Interesting article. Was in Abkhazia on the site of the city of Panticopeia for some reason called the capital of ancient Abkhazia smile
  10. Seal
    Seal 2 May 2014 00: 00
    +1
    Theodoro was attacked on the one hand by the Mongol-Tatars, on the other - by the Genoese, who gradually recaptured the coast from the principality.

    Well, here again the notorious "Tatar-Mongols", oh, sorry, "Mongolo-Tatars" and Europeans "Genoese" wander somewhere very close, even something one and the same, but from different ends, conquer, and with each other again no military conflicts: (((.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 3 May 2014 10: 06
      +2
      With the money of the "Genoese" merchants, Mamai's military campaign was organized.
      After a failed military campaign against Russia, Mamai fled back to Crimea.
      Where, the so-called Genoese merchants, the debtor Mamaia and strangled.
      Banks have always treated debtors very inhumane.
      Are you talking about any military conflicts?
  11. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 3 May 2014 05: 29
    +1
    History is best studied according to Lev Gumilyov ... it’s important not only and not so much a certain set of facts (over the years it becomes less clear), but also their interpretation ... the historical context of events ... and their relationship with world history
    1. Seal
      Seal 3 May 2014 23: 54
      +1
      Quote: silberwolf88
      History is best studied by Lev Gumilyov ...

      stop fool laughing
  12. Seal
    Seal 3 May 2014 23: 52
    0
    Quote: Turkir
    With the money of the "Genoese" merchants, Mamai's military campaign was organized.

    Excuse me, but what, one of the Muscovites came to Genoa and showed a fig to the Genoese podesta that he was so angry and hired a certain "Mamai" type to take revenge?
    Quote: Turkir
    After a failed military campaign against Russia, Mamai fled back to Crimea.
    Where, the so-called Genoese merchants, the debtor Mamaia and strangled. Banks have always treated debtors very inhumane.

    There is one interesting point here. There is an old popular saying in Russia. When in Russia they wanted (and still is) to describe the unimaginable destruction in one word, they said, "How Mamai went." Not Everyday, not Tamerlane, but Mamai. But it is believed that Mamai did not reach Russia and, accordingly, could not destroy anything. But nevertheless, there is a saying. And it is unlikely that she was born from scratch.
    Quote: Turkir
    Are you talking about any military conflicts?
    I say. In the Northern Black Sea region, where, like in a round dance, everyone walked one after the other, neither the Genoese managed to run into the "Mongol-Tatars", nor the Byzantines.
    If you want to show me the Kraledvor Chronicle, which, among other things, tells about the victory of the Czechs over the "Tatars" at Olmutz in 1253, then you better not. The famous fake of Ganka.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 4 May 2014 18: 02
      +2
      Sorry, I carefully read your comment.
      What Muscovite offended someone? What is the argument?
      Crimea of ​​the 14th century was already a slave market.
      Mamai was an ordinary "temnik". And to rob, bring full and return money with interest, that was enough. According to the conclusions of many historians, the Battle of Kulikovo was close to the then Moscow. And Mamai did not reach Russia? From what sources?
      And who was in Crimea, some Genoese and Byzantines? Byzantium at that time had no time for Crimea. We need money for a military company. This is only in fiction - someone "wanted" to go there, and another "wanted" and came here. Did the Genoese sell jeans? What were they doing there? Traded in Slavic slaves.
      And who was the supplier of these slaves?
      In the army of Mamaia there were also Genoese knights and .. Armenians.
      You yourself write that the saying was not born from scratch and at the same time you write, Mamai did not reach Russia.
      By the way, what I am writing about is accepted by almost all Russian historians.
      The date of the Kulikovo battle and the location, but not the fact itself, cause discrepancies.
      But Fomenko and Nosovsky are not interested in me.
  13. Drosselmeyer
    Drosselmeyer 4 May 2014 13: 39
    +1
    By the way, the fortress of Kalamita, which is in Inkerman, also belongs to the Principality of Theodoro.
  14. Andriuha077
    Andriuha077 4 May 2014 22: 48
    +1
    The first fortifications on the mountain were built in the V century, when
  15. Seal
    Seal 7 May 2014 00: 08
    0
    Quote: Turkir
    You yourself write that the saying was not born from scratch and at the same time you write, Mamai did not reach Russia.

    Is it. I wrote that
    But consideredthat Mamai did not reach Russia and, accordingly, could not destroy anything.

    Quote: Turkir
    In the army of Mamaia there were also Genoese knights and .. Armenians.
    Well, yes, this is generally known from the IV Novgorod Chronicle. PSRL. Vol. 4, part 1. P. 311 What's the problem? It was the Armenians who were the key link in the Black Sea slave trade. D. EMIDDIO DORTELLI D'ASKOLI writes about this in the 17th century.
    And nevertheless, go to Moscow for slaves? Well, this is hardly profitable, especially considering that the slaves could be successfully caught much closer. That is, your theory that the Genoese hired a certain local field commander Mamai to make a raid to Moscow in order to capture slaves is based on ... but by the way, what is it based on? In my opinion, alas, on the sand. Here, in addition to our proverb, one should recall the Ukrainian cycle of stories and fables about "Cossack Mamai", in which Cossack Mamai appears, though cunning, but on the whole quite a positive character.
    That is, we have two opposite versions:
    1. Negative towards Mamai: "How did Mamai go"
    2. Positive in relation to Mamai - "Tales of the Cossack Mamai".
    It needs to be explained somehow, right?
    And, by the way, the dislike of the Genoese for Muscovites, too, should be somehow logically explained. Slaves, as I have already said, could be obtained with the same success and at much lower cost much closer to the Crimea, and not wrestle for 3/9 lands in Moscow. If this joke doesn't suit you
    Excuse me, but what, one of the Muscovites came to Genoa and showed a fig to the Genoese podesta that he was so angry and hired a certain "Mamai" type to take revenge?
    then declare your argument, which can explain the demands of the "Genoese" to "Mamai" to go exactly to Moscow, ignoring other areas where slaves could be caught.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 11 May 2014 22: 42
      0
      Once again about Mamaia.
      Did I write that in the army of Mamaia there were only Genoese knights and Armenians?
      About the basis of his troops also need to be explained? Why did Mamai invite the Lithuanians to attack?
      Dislike of the Genoese, the Genoese hired ..?
      All this is talking to oneself. And it’s very incoherent.
      Genoese bought the city in the Crimea. How do you make up for what? Enjoy the views of the Black Sea?
      To clarify this issue between us, you directly write then that there was no attack by Mamai, as was the Battle of Kulikovo.
      And there were Fomenko and Nosovsky. And everything will be clear.
      ------------------
      Excuse me, but what, one of the Muscovites came to Genoa and showed a fig to the Genoese podesta that he was so angry and hired a certain "Mamai" type to take revenge?
      - and where is this quote from? This is not my style.
      1. Seal
        Seal 13 May 2014 21: 53
        0
        Quote: Turkir
        About the basis of his troops also need to be explained?

        Well, why not? So far, its basis is expressed only indirectly, for example, in the IV Novgorod Chronicle, which I have already cited. PSRL. Vol. 4, part 1. P. 311 "The same autumn when Prince Mamaia came to the Horde with his like-minded people, and with all the other princes of the Horde, and with all the might of Totar and Polovtsian, and in addition to that he called rats, Bessermen, and Armenians, and Fryazi, Cherkasy, and Yasy, and Burtasy ". Of course, if you have a direct list of his troops, well, for example, some kind of payroll, according to which Mamai writes how much money he gives to whom, like "I, Mamai, son of Papai, grandson of Babai, I order my treasurer to issue for the past lunar month the salary of my army, namely: to my Tatars in the amount of 10 thousand people - do not give anything, they are fighting for the idea, the Polovtsians - they will also cost, to fryaz, of which 120 - to give out according to their Fryaz thaler, Burtases, of which 300 people - two to each money, besermen - 3 dinars each, Armenians - 4 dinars each ... "- that would be great.
        Quote: Turkir
        Why did Mamai invite the Lithuanians to attack?
        Excuse me, how did you "invite" and how did it become known? What, there was a Mama letter - an invitation? Or there was a Lithuanian answer - consent. Or there was a recollection of no one Murza "How I, Murza such and such, went to Lithuania that year to call the Lithuanian prince with my sovereign Mamai to go to Moscow"
        Quote: Turkir
        Genoese bought the city in the Crimea. How do you make up for what? Enjoy the views of the Black Sea?
        Sorry, but this is your statement. How can I know why and from whom the "Genoese" allegedly bought the cities in the Crimea. This is all your conversations with yourself. And very incoherent.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Seal
        Seal 13 May 2014 21: 55
        0
        Quote: Turkir
        About the basis of his troops also need to be explained?

        Well, why not? So far, its basis is expressed only indirectly, for example, in the IV Novgorod Chronicle, which I have already cited. PSRL. Vol. 4, part 1. P. 311 "The same autumn when Prince Mamaia came to the Horde with his like-minded people, and with all the other princes of the Horde, and with all the might of Totar and Polovtsian, and in addition to that he called rats, Bessermen, and Armenians, and Fryazi, Cherkasy, and Yasy, and Burtasy ". Of course, if you have a direct list of his troops, well, for example, some kind of payroll, according to which Mamai writes how much money he gives to whom, like "I, Mamai, son of Papai, grandson of Babai, I order my treasurer to issue for the past lunar month the salary of my army, namely: to my Tatars in the amount of 10 thousand people - do not give anything, they are fighting for the idea, the Polovtsians - they will also cost, to fryaz, of which 120 - to give out according to their Fryaz thaler, Burtases, of which 300 people - two to each money, besermen - 3 dinars each, Armenians - 4 dinars each ... "- that would be great.
        Quote: Turkir
        Why did Mamai invite the Lithuanians to attack?
        Excuse me, how did you "invite" and how did it become known? What, there was a Mama letter - an invitation? Or there was a Lithuanian answer - consent. Or there was a recollection of no one Murza "How I, Murza such and such, went to Lithuania that year to call the Lithuanian prince with my sovereign Mamai to go to Moscow"
        Quote: Turkir
        Genoese bought the city in the Crimea. How do you make up for what? Enjoy the views of the Black Sea?
        Sorry, but this is your statement. How can I know why and from whom the "Genoese" allegedly bought the cities in the Crimea. This is all your conversations with yourself. And very incoherent.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Seal
        Seal 13 May 2014 21: 58
        0
        Quote: Turkir
        About the basis of his troops also need to be explained?

        Well, why not? So far, its basis is expressed only indirectly, for example, in the IV Novgorod Chronicle, which I have already cited. PSRL. Vol. 4, part 1. P. 311 "The same autumn when Prince Mamaia came to the Horde with his like-minded people, and with all the other princes of the Horde, and with all the power of Totar and Polovtsian, and in addition to that he called the rats, Bessermen, and Armenians, and Fryazi, Cherkasy, and Yasy, and Burtasy ". Of course, if you have a direct list of his troops, well, for example, some kind of payroll according to which Mamai writes out how much money he gives to whom, like "I, Mamai, I order my treasurer to give out the salary to my army for the past lunar month, and Namely: to my Tatars in the amount of 10 thousand people - do not give anything, they are fighting for the idea, the Polovtsians - they will also cost, to the mud, of which 120 - to give out according to their Fryaz taler, Burtases, of which 300 people - two money each, 3 dinars, Armenians - 4 dinars each ... "- that would be great.
        Quote: Turkir
        Why did Mamai invite the Lithuanians to attack?
        Excuse me, how did you "invite" and how did it become known? What, there was a Mama letter - an invitation? Or there was a Lithuanian answer - consent. Or there was a recollection of no one Murza "How I, Murza such and such, went to Lithuania that year to call the Lithuanian prince with my sovereign Mamai to go to Moscow"
        Quote: Turkir
        Genoese bought the city in the Crimea. How do you make up for what? Enjoy the views of the Black Sea?
        Sorry, but this is your statement. How can I know why and from whom the "Genoese" allegedly bought the cities in the Crimea. This is all your conversations with yourself. And very incoherent.
        Quote: Turkir
        To clarify this issue between us, you directly write then that there was no attack by Mamai, as was the Battle of Kulikovo.

        The way it is painted - most likely it really was not. Since the painted nonsense. As from "Mamai", so from "Dmitry". Please note that Russian princes went to the "steppe" twice. And both times in literary works. In the Word about Igor's regiment and in Zadonshchina. In real life, Russian princes met the Tatars at their borders, or even setting up a siege in the border fortress cities. For "Prince Dmitry" it is believed that the army was mainly on foot, for Prince "Mamai" it was mainly horse. If everything was as history depicts and Prince Dmitry would really wander with his foot army devils where from his capital, moving away from it for two weeks on foot, it would cost nothing to Prince Mamai, due to the advantage in the speed of movement of the cavalry army, go straight to Moscow and other cities of Russia, unprotected by anyone, and take them together with the Lithuanians, while "Prince Dmitry" made his walking promenade in the steppe :))))