Legendary PPSH

The PPSH-41 submachine gun is not just the well-known (at least outwardly) machine gun from the times of the Second World War, which habitually complements common images of the Belarusian partisan or Red Army man. Let's say otherwise - in order for all this to be so, it was necessary in time to solve a number of very serious problems.

Every kind weapons forms and tactics of its application. At a time when a submachine gun was created in the USSR, the main and only weapon of an infantryman was a magazine rifle. Since the invention of gunpowder until that time, despite the proliferation of machine guns and the use of automatic rifles (tactically facilitated replacement of the same machine guns), despite the perfection of magazine rifles - in the hands of a soldier continued to be a weapon, leading only a single fire. These are hundreds of years of a single-shot rifle and dozens of years of a rifle In this system, the concept of the device and tactics of the use of the machine gun in the infantry is to some extent comparable with the ideas of the fourth dimension.

Submachine guns appeared at the end of the First World War. Due to the lack of ideas about the most advantageous tactics of using a new type of weapon, the shape of the submachine guns to the magazine rifles — the same inconsistent butt and wooden box, and the weight and dimensions, especially when using large-capacity drum shops — did not assume that maneuverability, which submachine guns purchased later.

The idea of ​​a submachine gun is to use a pistol cartridge for automatic firing in an individual weapon. The low power of the cartridge, in comparison with the rifle, allows you to implement the most simple principle of the automation - the return of a massive free gate. This opens up the possibility to make weapons exceptionally simple both constructively and technologically.

By the time PPSH was created, a number of fairly sophisticated and reliable samples of submachine guns already existed and were distributed. These are the Finnish submachine gun Suomi systems of A.I. Lakhti, and the Austrian Steyer-Solothurn C I-100 designed by L. Shtange, and German Bergman MP-18 / I and MP-28 / II designed by H. Schmeisser, American pistol Thompson machine gun and our Soviet submachine gun PPD-40 (and its early modifications), produced in small quantities.

With an eye on the foreign policy of the USSR and the international situation, it is clear that the need to be armed with a modern sample of a submachine gun, albeit with some delay, was also overdue in the USSR.

But our requirements for weapons have always been different (and will be different) from the requirements for weapons in the armies of other countries. This is the maximum simplicity and manufacturability, high reliability and dependability of action in the most difficult conditions, and all this - with the preservation of the highest combat qualities.

The PPSh submachine gun was developed by the designer G.Shpagin in 1940 and was tested along with other samples of submachine guns. According to the test results, the PPSH submachine gun was recognized as the most satisfying of the set requirements and recommended for use. Under the name "7,62-mm submachine gun GS Shpagin sample 1941 g." It was put into service at the end of December 1940. As pointed out by D.N. Bolotin ("History Soviet small arms "), the survivability of the Spike-designed specimen was tested by 30 000 shots, after which the PP showed satisfactory firing accuracy and good condition of the parts. The reliability of the automatics was checked by shooting at elevations and declination in 85 degrees, with an artificially dusty mechanism, with no lubrication (all parts were washed with kerosene and wiped dry with rags), shooting 5000 cartridges without cleaning the weapon. All this allows you to judge the exceptional reliability and non-repudiation These weapons along with high combat qualities.

At the time of the creation of the PPSh submachine gun, the methods and technologies of stamping and cold working of metals were not widely used. However, a significant percentage of PPSH parts, including the main ones, was designed for manufacturing by cold stamping, and individual parts - by hot stamping. Thus, Shpagin successfully implemented the innovative idea of ​​creating a stamped-welded machine. The PPSH-41 submachine gun consisted of 87 factory parts, while there were only two threaded places in the machine gun, and the thread was a simple fastener. Part processing was required with a gross release of 5,6 machine-hours. (The data are given from the table of technological evaluation of submachine guns, placed in the book by D.N. Bolotin "The History of Soviet Small Arms").

In the design of the PPS submachine gun there were no scarce materials, there were not a large number of parts requiring complex processing, and seamless pipes were not used. Its production could be carried out not only at military factories, but also at any enterprises that have simple press-stamping equipment. This was the result of that simple principle of action, which allows for the implementation of a submachine gun, on the one hand, and a rational design solution, on the other.

Structurally, the PPS submachine gun consists of a barrel and a bolt box connected by a hinge, and in an assembled machine locked by a latch located in the rear of the receiver, a trigger box located in the box under the bolt box, and a wooden box with a butt.

The barrel is placed in the receiver, the muzzle of which extends into the hole of the barrel guide in front of the receiver, and the breech block passes into the hole of the liner, where it is pinned with the hinge axis. The receiver is at the same time the barrel casing, and is provided with rectangular cutouts for air circulation, cooling the barrel during firing. In front of the oblique sheath cover is covered with a diaphragm with a hole for the passage of the bullet. Such a device front of the casing serves as a muzzle brake-compensator. Powder gases, acting on the inclined surface of the diaphragm and flowing up and to the side through the cut-outs of the casing, reduce the recoil and reduce the stem up.

Shutter PPSh-41

Barrel submachine gun PPSH - removable and can be separated with the complete disassembly and replaced by another. In the bolt box placed a massive bolt, tucked return-combat spring. In the back of the box there is a fiber damper, softening the blow of the bolt in the rearmost position when firing. A simple safety device is mounted on the bolt handle. It is a slide that moves along the handle and can go into the front or rear cut-outs of the receiver and, accordingly, close the bolt in the forward (traveling) or rear (cocked) position.

In the trigger box is placed the trigger mechanism and the mechanism of separation. The button for switching the types of fire is displayed in front of the trigger and can occupy the extreme front position corresponding to single shooting and the rearmost position corresponding to automatic shooting. When moving, the button retracts the disconnector lever from the trigger trigger, or it interacts with it. When you press the trigger, the shutter, released from a cocking, moving forward, rejects the disconnector lever down, and the latter, if it is engaged with the trigger trigger, depresses it and thereby releases the trigger lever, which returns to its original position.

Initially, a 71 drum cartridge cartridge was adopted for the PPSH submachine gun. The store consists of a magazine box with a lid, a drum with a spring and a feeder and a rotating disk with a spiral crest - a snail. On the side of the store there is an eyelet, which makes it possible to carry stores on the belt in the absence of bags. Cartridges in the store are placed in two streams, on the outer and inner sides of the coil of a cochlea. When feeding cartridges from an external stream, the cochlea rotates with the cartridges under the action of a spring-loaded feeder. The cartridges are removed at the same time by the bend of the box located at the receiver, and brought to the receiver, to the dismounting line. After the outflow of the outer creek is exhausted, the rotation of the cochlea is stopped by the stopper, while the output of the inner creek is combined with the receiver window, and the cartridges are squeezed out of the inner creek by a feeder, which, without stopping its movement, now begins to move relative to the stationary cochlea.

PPSH-41 modification with night vision device

To fill the drum shop with cartridges, it was necessary to remove the magazine cover, start the drum with a feeder two turns and fill the snail with cartridges - the 32 cartridge in the inner stream and the 39 in the outer one. After that, release the locked drum and close the store cover. There was also a simple device to speed up the equipment store. But all the same, as can be seen from the description, the equipment of the store, in itself not difficult, was a long and difficult task in comparison with the equipment of the now popular box stores. In addition, with a drum shop, the weapon was quite heavy and bulky. Therefore, during the war, to the PPSh submachine gun was adopted, along with the drum one, a much simpler and more compact box-like sector magazine with the capacity of 35 cartridges.

Initially, the PPSh submachine gun was equipped with a sector sight, designed for shooting, at a distance of 500 m, cut into every 50 meters. During the war, the sector sight was replaced by a more simple flip-flop entirely with two slots for firing at 100 and 200 m. The experience of military operations showed that this distance is quite sufficient for a submachine gun and this sight, simpler in design and technologically, does not reduce combat qualities of weapons.

PPSH-41, modification with a curved barrel and box magazine on 35 cartridges

In general, during the war, in conditions of mass production, with the release of tens of thousands of PCA monthly, a number of changes were consistently introduced into the weapon design, aimed at simplifying the production technology and making the design of some components and parts more rational. In addition to changing the sight, the design of the hinge was also improved, where the pin was replaced with a split spring tube, which simplified the mounting and replacement of the barrel. The store's latch has been changed, reducing the likelihood of accidentally pressing it and losing the store.

The PPSh submachine gun proved itself so well on the battlefields that the Germans, who widely practiced the use of captured weapons in general, from rifles to howitzers, readily used the Soviet machine gun, and, sometimes, German soldiers preferred the PPSh to the German MP-40. The PPSH-41 submachine gun, used without constructive changes, had the designation MP717 (r) ("r" in brackets means "russ" - "Russian", and was used with reference to all captured models of Soviet weapons).

Drum magazine on 71 cartridge

Drum magazine on an 71 cartridge disassembled

Submachine gun PPSH-41, reworked for firing 9x19 “Parabellum” cartridges using standard MP stores, had the designation MP41 (r). Alteration of the PPSH, due to the fact that the 9x19 "Parabellum" and 7,62 x 25 TT cartridges (7,63 x 25 Mauser) are based on the same sleeve and the base diameters of the cartridge cases are completely identical, it was only the replacement of the 7,62-mm barrel on the XUMN of the cartridges of the cartridges that are completely identical, it was only the replacement of the 9-mm barrel on the XUMN of the cartridges of the cartridges that are completely identical, it was only the replacement of the 7,62-mm barrel with the XUMN of the cartridges of the cartridges are completely identical, it consisted only of replacing the XNUMX-mm barrel with a X-MUM of cartridge cases completely identical on the base of the cartridge sleeves on the XUMN cartridges with XNUMX-XNUMX xNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XUNXX XNUMX XUNXX Mauser. installation in the receiving window adapter for German stores. At the same time, both the adapter and the barrel could be removed and the machine gun could be turned back into an XNUMX-mm sample.

The PPSh-41 submachine gun, becoming the second consumer of pistol cartridges after the TT pistol, demanded not only an immeasurably greater release of these cartridges, but also the creation of cartridges with special types of bullets that are not required for a pistol, but are not necessary for a submachine gun. a policeman, and a military sample. Along with the cartridge developed earlier for the TT pistol with an ordinary lead core (P) bullet, armor-piercing incendiary (П-41) and tracer (ПТ) bullets were developed and put into service. In addition, at the end of the war, a cartridge with a bullet with a steel stamped core (Pst) was developed and mastered in the production. The use of a steel core, along with saving lead, increased the bullet penetration effect.

Due to the acute shortage of non-ferrous metals and bimetal (steel clad with tampacom) and the growing needs of the army in ammunition, the release of cartridges with bimetallic and then completely steel, having no additional coating, was established during the war. Bullets were produced mainly with a bimetallic shell, but also with steel, without coating. The brass sleeve is designated "hl", bimetallic - "GJ", steel - "gf". (At present, in relation to machine gun and rifle-machine-gun cartridges, the abbreviation "gs" denotes a steel lacquered sleeve. This is a different type of sleeve.) The full designation of the cartridges: "7,62Pgl", "7,62Pgj", etc.

PPSH-41 with drum magazine on 71 cartridge

PPSH-41 with box magazine on 35 cartridges

Comments

[Kolya]

Weapon of Victory!

[Civil]

trunks sawed from trilinear

[Gari]

Quote: Kohl

Weapon of Victory!

A submachine gun designed by Shpagin became one of the symbols of a Soviet soldier during the Great Patriotic War. This weapon can be seen in almost all domestic and foreign films about the Great Patriotic War. The image of the Soviet soldier-liberator in the form of monuments on the territory of the USSR and in the countries of Eastern Europe became a textbook - a soldier in a field uniform, cape, helmet and with PPSh.
Glory Weapon of victory!

[Consul-t]

The weapons of Victory were forged by our grandfathers. An example of the legendary T-34 tank.

In the initial period of World War II, the T-34 was invulnerable to the tank and anti-tank guns adopted at that time. Thanks to rational angles of inclination of the armor, the tank had excellent protection and relatively low weight. Wide caterpillars provided increased cross-country ability. The 76mm cannon could equally successfully fight the enemy’s armored vehicles and support infantry.
In addition, the design of the tank had a large reserve for modernization. In total, including modifications, 35 thousand copies of the T-34 were released. Moreover, the “thirty-four” of 1945 was significantly different from the “thirty-four” of 1941. A more powerful gun, improved crew working conditions, maintainability in the field (some parts were “adjusted” with a sledgehammer), and increased engine life and reliability. However, increasing the combat properties of the tank did not increase its cost.
On the contrary, the T-34 has become easier and cheaper to manufacture. So, on the 1 of January 1941 of the year, the entire complexity of the T-34 with body parts and a tower was 9465 of standard hours, and on the 1 of January of 1945 of the year - 3230. In addition, the production of combat vehicles was characterized by the involvement of non-specialized enterprises and the widespread use of low-skilled workers.
How did you achieve this result? Due to the mass heroism of the rear workers?
Nothing like this! Not a single war in the history of mankind has been won in the wake of enthusiasm. Forging the weapon of victory was possible only with the rational organization of production and continuous improvement!

And now we are setting up production, learning from the Japanese and introducing the Japanese production system. Forgot what they knew how to do and work.

[dustycat]

Actually, the Japanese consider their production system (quality management) to be borrowed in the USSR.

[Samurai]

And why, then, the Japanese jumped into the 21st century and you do not?

[Tartary]

Quote: Samuray

And why, then, the Japanese jumped into the 21st century and you do not?

Who is this YOU ?????

Flag change samurai, do not disgrace ...

Who else will inadvertently think that what "From Cupid Ain" is ...)))

[Samurai]

Why change the flag! I am a fan of Stalin! And the Soviet Union, but not modern Russia

[Tartary]

Quote: Samuray

Why change the flag! I am a fan of Stalin! And the Soviet Union, but not modern Russia

Screech ...
If this were so, then he would figure out who, when, why, how and in what areas of science and technology jumped into the 21st century ...

And without such an understanding - one chatter.

[Samurai]

Can I miss something? You have higher GDP in Russia than in Japan or a standard of living. Or in electronics, you are ahead of the rest! Can corruption be defeated and sent to Serdyukov? or Rusnano gives the world breakthrough technology

[Kirgudum]

Samurai, I advise you to look at reality more objectively.
Japan
1. Did not have to survive the collapse and loss of tens of millions of citizens.
2. There was no need to be spent on the maintenance of a huge army.
3. I did not have to survive two wars with the rebels, as in Russia - the first and second Chechen.
So for your comment

And why, then, the Japanese jumped into the 21st century and you do not?

you yourself could give an exact answer.

[anomalocaris]

Can not. For he does not understand.
Regarding the Japanese, personally, I have direct contact with Japanese technology, so other times, except when remembering a certain Japanese mother doesn’t help anything.

[Samurai]

I can if it is intellectual! And not an intiligent who always has excuses! And about Japanese technology, ask for example the inhabitants of Primorye! So they massively transferred to the supported foreign cars! And since you don’t like Japanese technology, why not use the Made in Russia technique!

[anomalocaris]

Baby, I'm just really dealing with Japanese technology. The last time I was called an intuitive about 10 years ago (he then lost three teeth).
So do not hang noodles on your ears.

[Samurai]

Wai wai fenced !! grandfather you me ;-)
In general, my company is engaged in the maintenance of Japanese equipment and we see no problems! And I tell you again! better than remembering Japanese go to the Russian technology and you will be shastie! Why suffer

[Samurai]

Dear, let's not slide into rudeness! If you work the same way, then it’s understandable why everything is so poorly set up for you! We are currently collecting Hitachi mining excavators for an Australian mining company in Indonesia and training mechanics along the way! this is for your information! Once again I ask the question - since the Japanese technique is bad, why don’t you switch to belase and ECG?

[anomalocaris]

Who said it was bad? Another question is that there are a lot of unnecessary bells and whistles, especially in hydraulics (I'm a hydraulic engineer). Although "Hitachi" are not very bad ... But all the same - the excessive complexity of them and rushing, although the "Europeans" in this regard are even more trenchant.
I had no business with "Belaz", since I was not an auto mechanic. But I haven't heard any negative reviews either.
Well for the Papuans, such a teacher can and will be sufficient.

[Samurai]

You said Regarding the Japanese, personally I have direct contact with Japanese technology, so other times, except when the memory of a certain Japanese mother doesn’t help anything.
As for the technique of Europeans! Then I agree with your opinion! A lot of twists! The worst of the European ones is Liebherr, in my opinion, because hydraulics constantly fail, or siphon or something else even if we put new cylinders for example! And the best in my opinion is also this Terex (O&K) made in German soundly! electronics to a minimum and that reliable simmens

[anomalocaris]

"Favorite fuck" is something! Especially the control system, and the cylinders are the same song.
With Komatsu, that's the only way.

[Tartary]

Quote: Samuray

Can I miss something? You have higher GDP in Russia than in Japan or a standard of living. Or in electronics, you are ahead of the rest! Can corruption be defeated and sent to Serdyukov? or Rusnano gives the world breakthrough technology

The whole world uses Russian technologies, including Japan.
For example, television invented Russian back in 1911 ...
You obviously heard about the radio ...
In electronics, Russia has breakthrough things. Of course, I’m not very versed, but it was about 90 nm in Russia against 20 nm in the USA in processors ...
The best planes, helicopters, tanks, rockets, etc.
If there are doubts in the minds of Russian scientists, let's talk specifically about this - write your article expressing your personal opinion, and the people will discuss here ...

Corruption around the world oh..ennaya, including and Japan, it’s just that there are the Rodschilds and the Morgan, etc. rules rule ...
Try to take it away!)))

Well, GDP in the economy is a matter of time ...
But you do not have such GDP as ours!

[Samurai]

I will answer you with a quote from the book of a retired KGB officer:
Over the years of work at the KGB, I never ceased to be amazed at the endless efforts to steal something: coating samples for treadmills in stadiums, luminescent paints, and lots of other little things that were mined by NL. Later I learned about hundreds of other, much larger, more successful and unsuccessful operations of this kind, called the same - theft. It is still difficult to answer the question - whether the people, whose talents we have been deafened with, are busy with some accomplishments inaccessible to our understanding, tearing them away from everyday trifles, or whether we are able to shoe a flea only once every hundred years - ruining it, by the way , a unique, fun toy, but surprising everyone that we just love to do.
In PSU there was (probably still exists) a whole department engaged in “technical intelligence”. Several times I had to meet with his employees on business and in a non-working environment, and all of them seemed extremely intelligent people, some had academic degrees ...
This may seem naive, but I often asked myself the question: wouldn’t it be better for them to invent something instead of doing “technical intelligence”?

[Samurai]

Well, as for corruption, I do not agree! Let's say in the former USSR corruption begins with maternity hospitals and ends with funeral services agencies! I can’t imagine that in the USA I had to give a bribe to the head of the kindergarten in order to arrange a child in a kindergarten. And I don’t remember what the Ala-Serdyukovs and the like were operating in the USA.

[Black Colonel]

You somehow departed from the topic of the article. And what, for example, Japanese gunsmiths can boast of. Licensed products and more. Their tanks and those did not participate in the hostilities, it is not known how they will behave in real life. What is there to crucify for maid in japan?

[Uhalus]

I’m trying and cannot remember to give a bribe under socialism ... It was then, of course, but it somehow passed us ... They lived without bribes. And now ...
As for technical intelligence, they were not surprised. It would be surprising if we didn't have this, the absence of this department meant that we are complete fools in intelligence. Such services for the art of stealing from a neighbor were in all intelligence services in the world. We can invent, implement, but just stolen is sometimes much cheaper. And it is undoubtedly necessary to know "what the opponents breathe" in technology.
PS: and about Lefty, you are unfortunately right, they ruined the toy ... True, in 1986 in the Hermitage there was an exhibition of precisely such micro-toys, both foreign and our dressing (I remember well, because I went to Leningrad); part even acted; and the Russians were far worse than foreign ones. I remember that three of them could be considered normally only with a 60-fold increase.

[Nick]

Quote: Samuray

Can I miss something? You have higher GDP in Russia than in Japan or a standard of living.

In Russia, higher creative potential. Another thing is that most of the ideas are realized, unfortunately, abroad, so well, something needs to be done with this.

[roll]

Not true, not at all higher. Quite average.

[Uhalus]

And they did not have perestroika, democracy and other destruction ... We largely did not lag behind them in the 80s.

[svp67]

Quote: Consul-t

On the contrary, the T-34 has become easier and cheaper to manufacture. So, on the 1 of January 1941 of the year, the entire complexity of the T-34 with body parts and a tower was 9465 of standard hours, and on the 1 of January of 1945 of the year - 3230. In addition, the production of combat vehicles was characterized by the involvement of non-specialized enterprises and the widespread use of low-skilled workers.

Yes, I just want to scream Hurray! If I didn’t know that it’s not so great that the operations on the T34 production were simplified too much, as a result of which, not all the seams welded in the hull, in its upper projections, there were large gaps, so the crew suffered from every rain that t hedgehogs the seams were not processed and the slag, when it got into the tank, flew off and could injure the crew, no worse than a shard that the enterprises worked for minors and old people, as many skilled workers were forced to draft in the army to make up for the losses of 41 and 42 years ... Not so simple, and at and VICTORY was very difficult for us.

[erased]

PPSh, PPS showed themselves worthy of war, and since mid-1943 they generally became the main armament of the infantry. However, this was a necessary step. The aiming range from PPSh did not exceed 250 meters. Since 1943, the aiming bar has had only two positions - 100 and 200.
Meanwhile, much work has been going on in the USSR since the 20s to create reliable long-range quick-fire weapons for infantry capable of replacing the Mosin rifle. AVS-36, SVT-38/40 were created. This weapon was able to confidently hit targets at a distance of up to 800 meters. However, they had some design flaws and comparative manufacturing complexity. And the use of a rifle cartridge made it difficult to shoot with quick fire. Nevertheless, the SVT-40 was already entering the troops and according to the plan was to become the main weapon of the infantry. Submachine guns occupied their niche, but were secondary weapons.
With the outbreak of war, after heavy losses, the evacuation of factories, the departure of most skilled workers to the front, it became difficult to comply with the technological chain in the production of military hardware. And without that, the technologically sophisticated rifle has become simply unprofitable. Mosin’s rifles and carbines were returned to the army, and then they began to saturate the infantry with submachine guns. And although it was a melee weapon (often up to 100 meters), it was used very widely.
And the creation of reliable long-range infantry weapons continued.
From the experience of the war, it became clear that the infantry was conducting effective fire at a distance of up to 500 meters.
That the lethal action of a rifle cartridge at such a distance is excessive. An intermediate cartridge was created with a lower recoil momentum. And under it, designer Simonov (author of ABC-36) created a self-loading SKS carbine. And the designer Degtyarev made an RPD machine gun.
A little later, a young designer - a former tanker who commanded after being wounded in 1942 and became an inventor - created an assault rifle called an assault rifle. Since 1949, his weapons under the index AK-47 became the main type of small arms of the Soviet Army. His surname has become a household name and for 66 years the AK assault rifle has been known to everyone as the best small arms in the world!
Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov, like Georgy Semenovich Shpagin, Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev, Vasily Alekseevich Degtyarev did everything so that the Red (Soviet) Army was armed with the best weapons in the world!

[vikontas56]

The SVT required regular maintenance and lubrication, without which its properties deteriorated - due to dusting, cartridge was underexposed! Therefore, in the land units they tried to replace it with the Mosin’s three-line, less demanding maintenance! But in the naval formations, where they always tried to keep weapons in the best SVT served until the end of the war! Even the Germans were very fond of the SVT, who did not have automatic rifles at the beginning of the war - they armed their jaeger units with captured SVT.

[svp67]

Quote: vikontas56

That is why in the land parts they tried to replace it with the Mosin trilinear, less demanding for care!

And MUCH cheaper in production ...

[sergey72]

And also our marine corps. The SVT was their main weapon, the sailors were more technically savvy.

[dustycat]

Just trilinear in warehouses by 1941 turned to hell.
In connection with the rearmament that began in the spring of 1941, they naturally, just in case, went into mobilization reserves.
Like cartridges for them.
And there are misfires in the unclean three-ruler.
She has a limitation of the stride forward stroke is the shutter.
And with the accumulation of dirt, she also stopped shooting.

[Droid]

SVT had three huge problems:
1. The lack of rigidity of the locking unit, which over time led to an increase in the mirror clearance.

A great influence on the increase in the mirror clearance is exerted by the structural features of a particular weapon model, namely: the locking system, the design of the bottom of the shutter cup, and the design of the breech section of the barrel. Unsuccessful design of the interface between the shutter and the official cut of the barrel always entails an increase in the mirror clearance and, as a result, difficult extraction of the sleeve and its rupture. These moments are especially characteristic in the Tokarev self-loading rifle (SVT), where locking occurs when the shutter is skewed backwards. It is difficult to maintain a stable position of the slide cup relative to the head of the cartridge and a stable position of the mirror of the shutter relative to the breech section of the barrel. When fired, the SVT receiver bends from abutting against it by the rear supporting edge of the skewed shutter. In addition, the chamber in this rifle has thin walls to facilitate weight and therefore receives a large elastic deformation. It is enough that after shooting 8000 shots, detachment of the cap of the sleeve, non-ejection of the sleeve and detachments of the ejector turn into a chronic phenomenon on the SVT rifle.

2. The store and its mount.
A reliable store under a rifle cartridge was only worked out in the early 60s. For example, in a competition for self-loading sniper, SVD showing excellent shooting results gave a lot of delays due to the store. Then Konstantinov simply gave Dragunov a store from his rifle. In addition, SVT had a weak store attachment due to which it could spontaneously separate and get lost.

3. Gas five-position regulator.
A good example is that with good intentions the road to hell is paved. For example, in the case of lowering the temperature, dusting, soot contamination due to shooting, etc. it was necessary to switch the gas regulator to a larger hole. Often, such a need could arise and arose directly during the battle (because it is not possible to rifle in a battle and you just need to clean it), only the SVT is not a PC and a special key was required to switch the controller and incomplete disassembly of the rifle. This is in battle! It is not surprising that the fighters did not bother putting the regulator to the maximum. Forever. Which led to accelerated wear of parts and premature failure of the weapon.

[timeout]

Quote: Droid

SVT had three huge problems:

Dear, did you hold SVT in your hands? What you described in the comment is complete nonsense. If not, go to the rzhmag and ask to show the store from SVT and Tiger and you will find not many differences. At the expense of the gas regulator, the rifle was intended for a well-trained fighter, and not for those called up from the reserve of World War 1 veterans or boys after school desk. To clean the vent assembly of any weapon with vent automation, disassembly of the weapon is required. Many simply had no idea about disassembling the CBT. And any weapon requires care, even if the three-line dirt gets under the shutter stem will have an elementary wedge! In the instruction of the SVT on shooting, a soldier in the case of extended hostilities was recommended to set the gas regulator to maximum. So the problem was not in weapons, but in users. And this rifle was withdrawn from service due to the report of one nearby member of the Armed Forces. And the most important thing! the famous FN FAL is a complete CBT clone for automation. So much for the vicious system ...

[anomalocaris]

Dear, did you hold the SVT-40 in your hands? Shot? Cleaned?
If not, then go through the forest.

[timeout]

I hold, shoot and own, unlike you. And this rifle loves ballistol like all weapons. Or do you have without rudeness in any way? So you can travel the forest yourself!

[anomalocaris]

You did not correctly understand the address of my message. Unlike me, you cannot own it

[timeout]

The hint understood, I apologize for the demarche!

[Black Colonel]

As one WWII veteran told me, “Light (SVT) needed to be loved, cared for and cherished, and then she would never let you down. Therefore, SVT, in the main, were armed with sailors, people of a greater technical culture than infantrymen, ordinary Vanya. at the end of the war, they did not exchange SVT for a submachine gun because of its high rate of fire and firepower.

[anomalocaris]

I absolutely agree.

[ramsi]

at the expense of the sailors, I think the reason is rather that they fired little, due to the specifics of their service

[anomalocaris]

Yeah. Tell this to the marines of Sevastopol, Odessa and Leningrad.

[ramsi]

but the Marines - this is not necessarily SVT-40, this is, in general, anything

[Bosk]

As a child, I had such a toy, I remember my father slightly improved it (away from sin), but left the main functions. For a long time, the boys and I played war games with him, and then when I was already grown up, I gave them to the school museum ... (which is a pity). I still remember this feeling of surprise and even disappointment somewhere, when I found it and dismantled it on the go .. I saw this killer simplicity, but before that I thought in patsansky machine guns that it was extremely complicated ...

[Srgsoap]

PPSh is always relevant !!!

[a boat]

Dad, so our fighters nicknamed this machine! As for me to work a little and I gladly exchanged it for AK-74U!

[svp67]

Quote: gych

Dad, so our fighters nicknamed this machine! As for me to work a little and I gladly exchanged it for AK-74U!

No, I would advise you to pay attention to PPP, this PP is still better, at least for safety ...

[SHARK]

A good thing and a cartridge in his time is one of the best.

[misham]

PPSh-41 is extremely technological and simple. Only the pistol cartridge is rather weak. PPSh is suitable only for close combat. It seems to me that having infused infantry with quantity (density of fire) they lost in quality. The mosquito is much more effective.
It is a pity that CBT (complex and expensive) did not receive development, and SCS (with an intermediate cartridge) was late. It’s interesting whether ours appealed to the allies about the supply of Garands on Lend-Lease

[Avenger711]

More effective, but in a big war this was largely offset by artillery.

[Black Colonel]

Everything has its purpose. In street battles with a mosquito you won’t win when you face an opponent face to face if he has PP. You won’t have time to distort the shutter.

[Mikhail3]

I do not agree that the PPSh is a kind of "forced compromise." The purpose of infantry small arms, an infantryman's "labor" tool, is to destroy the enemy. In World War I, long-range rifles were designed to destroy the enemy from behind cover from a long distance. In this role, the rifle was ineffective. It was difficult, almost impossible for a simple infantryman, not a sniper (for whose work a specific mental device, physical data and training) could get into. As a result, in order to change the tactical situation, it took rapprochement with the enemy. And in a situation of rapprochement, the rifle is generally almost superfluous. Only as a spear (bayonet fight), one shot and you are in ancient Sparta! So the PCA perfectly solved its task at that moment - in a situation of rapprochement with the enemy, on the run, with sharp constant maneuvers of an infantryman, he ensured the defeat of the enemy, primarily due to the almost complete absence of time losses (as well as loss of time for training) for aiming. He poked the barrel approximately in the direction of the enemy, and 5-8 bullets will do what one is unlikely to do. That is, instead of one shot at the beginning of the attack, you have somewhere 4-6 bursts with a considerable probability of hitting the enemy!
The automatic weapons of that war did not need such characteristics as a reliable defeat at 800 or more than meters. If you have fighters capable of working with such weapons - you have a mosquito on you, a half time sight and do not run into the attack. Lie down and support your comrades with fire from a place. All the same, there are more than such shooters than 5-7 people in the company for anything .... But for the rest it is difficult to even imagine which weapon would be better over the whole complex of factors than the PCA.

[Avenger711]

Your naivety is amazing, after the first 1-2 shots the weapon looks anywhere, but not at the enemy, in vain they shoot, usually short, 2-3 shots. Plus, comparing a PPSh farther in power with a rifle is simply not serious, the stopping effect and slaughter are not comparable. That is why all the armies crossed the intermediate cartridge, which, although not a rifle, allows shooting in bursts.

[Cyber7]

It's funny Machine guns (or submachine guns) were never compared to rifles. This weapon is designed for completely different purposes. And the goals for the PP appeared precisely with the arrival of the PP in service. A soldier with a detachment sits in a trench 50 meters from the enemy and pours it with lead, while a sniper with a rifle sits 50 meters deeper in the rear and shoots single targets.
By the way, again about

Quote: Avenger711

after the first 1-2 shots, the weapon looks anywhere

Look downstream of the tytubikovy roller, as Amer planted about half a disk into the target.
Very informative in the sense of "the weapon looks anywhere".

[Genady1976]

68 bullets per race

[Black Colonel]

50 meters deeper in the rear
Probably 500 m.

[Leksander]

Avenger711, I am surprised at your naivety! The article is not very good for me either, I read articles about PPSh-41 both better and more objective, but you’re generally something ...
one of the six minuses is mine.

[Mikhail3]

The increase in power (and what you take for slaughter and stopping action, and in vain) is completely identical with the increase in power of modern cars. That is, it leads to a sharp, at times, increase in show-offs and slaughter in relation to the owner. But in an urban situation, it does not lead to a reduction in the delivery time of the owner from point A to point B for even a second. War is not a shooting gallery at all ...

[Uhalus]

PPSh and the mosquito cannot be compared - they are weapons of a different class and they have different uses. No, there’s only one point - to kill the enemy, but the method of application is different. And each weapon corresponds to its own method and specialization. PPSh has a good compensator, you can sign it on the wall with a burst of it, and its heavy weight is an additional stabilizing factor, so the battle is very heaped. And the rifle power at short distances (100 - 150 m) he does not need, and there is enough pistol cartridge. And for firing bursts of PPSh it is very convenient, the application specialist. In my opinion, even in our time it would be very good as a weapon of the police, self-defense units, rear employees, etc.

[MAG]

I watched a TV program about PPSh a long time ago so there in the conditions of war there was no time to soak the butt in a special chemical solution for the fortress (1 month). And that they just didn’t come up with it, and the local grandfather’s exit told me to soak it in the urine (1 week), we tested it and it worked. An order came out to all local villages to go through small ones in barrels and take them to the factory for procedures)))

[Mikhail3]

Nice ... just lies. Soaking in urine is the result of quite scientific research, an urgent need to increase the strength of the wooden set of the aircraft hull. Dural was indescribably lacking ... IL 2 with a metal-wooden set was walking. And aircraft designers used to soak it in a "special solution", but there was no such solution in abundance! And the tales about the grandfather arose because those pussies were pissing in the camps. And this topic was a little unpopular in the USSR.

[bbss]

Where did you get the idea that only for close combat? A cartridge that had too much power for a pistol was very good for a submachine gun! Do you think that the PPSh was supposed to compete with sniper rifles at distances over 300 m? Why are complex sights on weapons of this class? He has completely different tasks. Provide heavy fire on the advancing enemy infantry. And at a distance exceeding the effective firing range of the enemy's PP! And the cartridge, by the way, and to this day regularly pierces body armor and to protect against it, an armor of a different class is already needed. My father said that he and a friend had "sawed through" the toilet booth one by one for a bet. True, it was already a PPP ...

And why did we need Garands? Another type of ammunition to fire? And whom to arm the Garands with?

[misham]

for PPSh-pistol cartridge for TT. Sighting range up to 200m. He will continue to fly, but the energy of the bullet is not enough. In the melee it is enough and a little further everything.
In addition, additional difficulties arise with the supply of infantry units. For machine guns and rifles, some cartridges for PPSh others. The Germans MP-40 (38) were only among non-commissioned officers and officers.
And the fact that the Fritz used our weapons is because of poverty

As for the M1 Garand, they and Mosinka have one caliber of 7,62, only the cartridges are slightly different in length. If desired, the Americans would modify it under our native cartridge.
Whom to equip the Garands is our infantry queen of the fields. Just what we need, especially with machine guns, we also don’t thank God Degtyarev and Maxim.

[anomalocaris]

A bullet fired from a PCA has enough energy to kill at a distance of a kilometer. But to hit the target at a distance of over 250 m is really difficult. Although with dense fire, the number of bullets per running meter becomes a decisive factor. By the way, the Americans analyzed the ammunition consumption during WWII and the Korean War, and came to the conclusion - 1) on average, 20-30 thousand rounds of ammunition were used to destroy one enemy, 2) in a real battle, the shooting is simply "in that direction."
There were no particular problems. You forgot to mention PTR cartridges. And the Germans generally enjoyed the trophies very well. This business was extremely developed and organized at the highest level.
M1 is much more complicated than CBT, has significantly lower reliability and is more expensive. How to remake it under a three-line cartridge, I have very little idea. This will require the development of a new rifle. The main problem of the SVT was not even its high cost and complexity, the main problem was the training of personnel. For for failure-free operation, it required a very sensitive and competent attitude. And in our country, the queen of the fields was mainly people from the village who very rarely communicated with technology and, accordingly, did not have the skills that a city dweller received as a child (this is not an insult, just a statement of the fact, by the way, how many city dwellers will manage a cow ?), and to conduct training for six months or more, the USSR did not have the opportunity, unlike the United States. Yes, and wartime ammunition is another story.
And what was bad about DP? This is quite a successful light machine gun of that era (I do not recommend comparing it with MG-34,42, these are weapons of different classes). Forgot more SG-43.

[Uhalus]

The Americans themselves later admitted that the Garand carbine was very unreliable. So they do not need to arm our infantry, the SVT-38 or -40 was more reliable.
DP had some inconveniences, but its highest reliability is undeniable. And this is one of the most important factors. And finally, the cartridges for Mosinka and Garand are very different, and our 7.62 is slightly wider (by 0,02 mm) than the American 7.62. Source - A.B. Beetle, "Pistols and Revolvers" ... I don't remember exactly the edition, the author writes about the difference in calibers, designated the same.
The Maxim was really an antiquated machine gun. But the Germans also used it, along with Dreise, as well as Czech, Polish and French machine guns. And then, already in the middle of the war, to replace the Maxim, they began to produce the SG-42, which is still in service with us.
Warning the possible arguments: do not remind me of the MG-42, it is really a cool machine gun, but it was created as universal; it is complex, expensive and time-consuming to manufacture.

[Genady1976]

maybe I'm wrong And then, already in the middle of the war, to replace the Maxim, they began to produce SG-42, not SG-43

[Black Colonel]

The road was MG-34. MG-42 was, in my opinion, 20-30 percent cheaper. On the other hand, these were single machine guns, i.e. went to most equipment and infantry without any alterations, which ultimately reduced the cost of production and simplified the supply. At that time, this was not the case in any army in the world.

[Uhalus]

Yes, that is right. But I compared the cost and complexity of production with DP. I find this information regarding the cost of the SG-42.
So ours went without fundamental alterations? And all sorts of ext. we and we had them.

[Avenger711]

At a distance of 50-100 m? Not even funny. Then they prayed for an automatic rifle for good reason.

[Uhalus]

In urban battles, with close contact, it is necessary to flood the enemy with fire, and the automatic rifle, with all its advantages, can not cope with this. So the submachine gun was made. In general, a universal weapon combining the properties of a submachine gun and an automatic rifle was created: These are assault rifles, they are also automatic weapons - AK, M-16 and others under a reduced cartridge.

[svp67]

the Germans, who generally widely practiced the use of captured weapons, from rifles to howitzers, willingly used a Soviet machine gun, and, it happened, German soldiers preferred the PCA to the German MP-40.

Well, it seems that the process was mutual, our fighters, especially scouts, were happy to use the MP .., for various reasons ...

[Svyatoslavovich]

A special love for German automatic weapons is one of the myths born by filmmakers and all sorts of praisers of all German. The use of MP by scouts is not justified by the characteristics of the weapon, but by its belonging to the enemy, on whose territory reconnaissance groups have to act. And the use of a trophy machine by infantry is only possible for a short time, if necessary, but not as constantly. Firstly, the issue of providing ammunition; secondly, the PPSh had much better characteristics.

[svp67]

And who will not tell you, in the title photo, soldiers of whose army?

[SHARK]

Judging by the helmets, this may be the GDR, although I could be wrong.

[datur]

you will not believe GERMANS 111

[cobalt]

So sure, the helmet of the GDR army

[misham]

Helmets of the GDR NNA. Was PPSh and Mosinka in their arsenal, most likely not immediately received AK and SCS
Camouflage is German. In our Great Patriotic War, only scouts wore such a thing.
Most likely it was DEFA making a movie about the war.

[nnz226]

In the photo from the time of the construction of the Berlin Wall (you can find a lot on the internet), NNA GDR fighters stand with PPSh. Not with MP-40 they were standing! And AK-47 was considered secret until the mid-1950's, and was never used anywhere, except at first Border Guards and Airborne Forces, then, as they were mass-produced, it was already on the ground. My father told me (he served in the Airborne Forces) that they were ordered to wear their covers when marching around the city of AK, so that the adversary would not see a new miracle weapon.

[Gari]

After the war, the PPSh-41 submachine gun was removed from service in the Soviet Army, but the combat career of these weapons did not end. It was massively supplied to the USSR-friendly developing countries and the countries of the Warsaw Pact, as well as to China. Until at least the 1980s, PPSh-41s were used by paramilitary units in some African countries. Shpagin's submachine gun was used even during the Iraq war of 2003.
Here is a photo of a contented Amerinian soldier

[Uhalus]

I would be happy in his place too - I got such a cool antique! And most importantly, acting!

[kazssr]

army of the GDR (helmet), but a year I do not know

[Bosk]

A case is not the Yugoslavs?

[svp67]

Thank you all, I really found the same photo, but with the inscription

NNA GDR with PPSh on exercises

and here are some more interesting photos

Officer NNA GDR with PPSh

Italian carabiner with PPSh 1946

PCA with silencer

[cobalt]

Judging by the photo found, the Yugoslavs wore such helmets.

[Gari]

Wow, the Germans (albeit of course the Army of the GDR) with PPSh and attack (it’s clear that in the exercises)

[shush007]

The machine is a class, it’s just too painful to fire

[Bosk]

With twenty-two ... you get some nice fixed queues ...

[anomalocaris]

From AKM. The PPSh had a rate of fire of 1000 rpm. On "22" just 5-7 bullets will fly out.

[kirpich]

Quote: Mikhail3

So PPSh perfectly solved its task at that moment - in a situation of rapprochement with the enemy, on the run, with sharp constant maneuvers of the infantryman, he ensured the defeat of the enemy, primarily due to the almost complete absence of loss of time (as well as loss of training time) on aiming. I poked the barrel approximately towards the enemy, and 5-8 bullets will do what hardly one will do

... And here the misunderstandings begin. It has already been repeatedly said on the forum about the unreliability of disk stores. Here and imagine - A soldier bursts into the enemy’s trench, the right, left enemies, presses the fighter on the descent, and NO shot (cartridge skew, or until everything ran shot). So I don’t understand WHY that we don’t have bayonets at the Germans? After breaking into the enemy’s trenches and without cartridges, you’ll look like a warrior with a club (... maybe that's why they didn’t refuse strong wooden butts?), and the same bayonet on the PP increases survival in hand-to-hand combat.

[Mikhail3]

The disk is more capacious. The disadvantage was revealed during mass use, and then it was eliminated - they began to make a horn. And the bayonets were not done correctly. The PPSh is too short for bayonet combat, besides, the strength of the receiver with the casing is not sufficient for combat. There was not that metal yet, not AKM at all. And it is inconvenient to poke, and you ruin the weapon. Therefore, a shot from the trunk behind the back and a knife in the hand or shoulder blade, they are faster, which means they are immeasurably more effective. And what about the "cudgel" ... the butt plate is also good, often you don't need to edit ...

[SIT]

Quote: kirpich

So I don’t understand. WHY do we have that the Germans didn’t have bayonets at the BCP?

On the MP40, the bayonet is pointless. when holding the machine by the fire control handle and the magazine, it is problematic to strike with a bayonet. If the bayonet is mounted on a stamped casing on the PPSh, then the bayonet may deform the casing when the bayonet is used, and its displacement by several mm will already lead to bullets entering the muzzle brake section.

[Russ69]

In the 90s, they managed to shoot at the shooting range from PPSh and PPS. Basically
I liked it, but the drum equipment is a thing that is extremely not convenient. They shot in the winter, although the frost was not big, but palpable. Until you forget, you will freeze all your fingers. All the same, the box store is more convenient in this regard.
And so normal, they shot at 100-150m quite successfully, they hit.

[dustycat]

Also had experience closer to the end of the 1980s.
I did not notice a decrease in the effectiveness of fire relative to AK at a range with a maximum range of 300m.
At a range of 150, the accuracy of the queue is no worse than an AK.
In single-player mode - a little better than Makarov.
The only thing that struck me - the rate of fire - is clearly excessive.

[kirpich]

Quote: Mikhail3

. Not that metal was still, not AKM at all. And poking is inconvenient, and you ruin the weapon. Because the shot barrel behind the back and the knife in the hand or shoulder blade, they are faster, and therefore - immeasurably more effective

Michael3, do you now understand what you said?

[Alf]

Quote: Consul-t

And now we are setting up production, learning from the Japanese and introducing the Japanese production system. Forgot what they knew how to do and work.

It is, of course, true, but one should not forget what the Japanese said, "All our successes in industry are due to the fact that we (the Japanese) copy the socialist production system."

[Alf]

Quote: svp67

No, I would advise you to pay attention to PPP, this PP is still better, at least for safety.

Not better. PPP had worse accuracy due to a more flimsy stock. These systems complemented each other.

Quote: misham

It is a pity that CBT (complex and expensive) did not receive development, and SCS (with an intermediate cartridge) was late. It’s interesting whether ours appealed to the allies about the supply of Garands on Lend-Lease

Amer and the guards launched the main weapon because Thompson was too expensive.

[svp67]

Quote: Alf

Not better. PPP had worse accuracy due to a more flimsy stock. These systems complemented each other.

But he didn’t shoot spontaneously, and the fragility of the folding stock is now completely removable, but the presence of a lower rate of fire plays on accuracy and efficiency ...

[anomalocaris]

Not only that. In addition, you lose sight of the fact that the Americans have M1 carbine, for all controversy, this unit was superior to any submachine gun of the time by head. And Americans developed and actively applied PP.

[Alf]

Quote: misham

Whom to equip the Garands is our infantry queen of the fields. Just what we need, especially with machine guns, we also don’t thank God Degtyarev and Maxim.

That is why the CBT was removed. In addition to the complexity in production, it is also necessary to teach self-loading to fight, to use its strengths-accurate combat at medium distances. PPSh was in this sense ideal — no variable sights, picked up, stuck a disk, approximately aimed at the German and poured, as if from a hose. And, in this case, 71 rounds are better than 35 rounds. Especially when the battle is taking place in the city at very short distances, where there is no time to count how many rounds you have left and there is no time for a more frequent change of the store.
We should not forget that, unlike PPSh and the mosquito, Sveta also required CONSTANT care. There is a famous case. A complaint arrives at Tokarev Design Bureau that a fighter cannot give a rate of fire of 25 rounds per minute, as in the passport. The commission arrived at the unit, found this fighter and said, show me how to shoot. So he opened the shutter, inserted ONE cartridge, fired, opened again, again ONE cartridge loaded, fired again. It turned out that the fighter simply did not know that the light was ten and self-loading. Yes, such that svetku that garand that hever-43 give one result will be one.

[Bosk]

I thought ... if the folding butt ... screw auger ... modify the aiming bar ... well, what other cleverness and wisdom to add there ... then fluff will not be weak these days, I'm not talking about budgeting. ..

[svp67]

Quote: Bosk

I thought about it.

Probably, but PPP will still be better, not to mention more modern PP. Like PP-19 "Bizon"

[SIT]

Here I’m not moving in. Why not make it in the bulpap layout? frame butt would not increase the size of the weapon and did not add weight. The overall balance has improved. After all, as the store is emptied, the balance changes under the barrel and retention must be changed.

[Bosk]

You can, of course, trick the chegolto with the PPS, but at the expense of "Bizon" ... of course I won't say it right now, but it seems that the PPS-Sh barrel length wakes up more and if all this is adjusted to a modern cartridge, then the lethal bar can be raised by a hundred meters , again, I repeat that the budget of such a PP wakes up an order of magnitude less. Although I must note I am not an economist-technologist and may get "Porridge from an ax"

[Mikhail3]

Beautiful contraption. If only (I hope of course that will not happen) statistics will be collected covering the battles between the owners of these gizmos and AKM, then with large samples it will definitely come out that the owners of AKM will completely beat out users of this beauty. Why?
Barrel rotation speed. Around the store of the classic layout, turning the weapon faster than dragging the Bison to the right and left with a pipe, evenly weighted with cartridges. A tiny fraction of a second - yes. But in the mass ... Kalashnikov fought, and in a real war. And his weapon is for war. Anything that the epigones try to "improve" simply makes the great thing worse.
The same can be said about PCA. Yes, kruglyash is heavy. But around it the barrel spins like a dowel! Paradoxically, the large weight and spatial position of the round ... facilitated the use of weapons with one hand. The upturned center of mass of the PPSh had sufficient inertia to let go of the left hand and continue to turn the barrel with the right. The left, for example, went to an additional emphasis on the wall of the trench or helped to turn the hull, while the right independently turned the weapon and fired. Then the interception ...

[svp67]

Or Submachine Gun PP-90M1

[dustycat]

Some bandyugan in the 90s did not mind having PPSh, and preferred their AK.

[Mikhail3]

Free shutter. That is, a high rate of fire cannot be overcome. Increase the weight of the bolt group? Everything will have to be heavier, but he is not a feather anyway. Sighting at it is like screwing a sniper complex on a DShK. Hassle alone. Here is a screw store - this is the case. And so - he will now do his job by five points.
As for the "outdated weapon" - there are kids above about the "stopping effect" and increasing the lethality of more powerful cartridges are raving. This is me in the sense that the weapon does not age, it ceases to cope with the task in its niche when new samples appear. Like a sword sintered when the saber began to overtake him. As a muzzle-loading weapon went away, it failed in terms of rate of fire.
And what is the "obsolete" PPSh in the range of tasks it solves? Exclusively in that it waters quickly, and you can't turn on endless cartridges. So at the moment of the fight itself at a short distance, a field of 8 bullets covers the space of more than 3 bullets! And the time of the shot is the same. Here it’s not even a screw magazine, but simply take the spring from better steel, which was not in the 40s. You look, the distortions will decrease. And the accuracy of manufacturing is now incomparable, just try to make it accurately, without oblique tolerances (a trifle, just take machining centers instead of hammers, modern stamping systems) - oh, what a machine it will be!

[svp67]

Picture of PPSh at the awards. Here, as they say, "NO COMMENTS"

[svp67]

But here it seems to be a mistake, too, because the signature "Deutsche Frohline with PPSh" does not seem to be correct, then what in the hands of Frau looks more like a PPD, and even more Suomi ...

[anomalocaris]

No, that's right. This is PPSh-41. If you enlarge the photo, you can count the holes in the casing and see the characteristic window for the ejection of cartridges.

[cobalt]

It seems to me that during the war the Germans used PPSh no less than our MP-40. Photos of Fritz with PPSh quite a lot. Here is another one.

[Gari]

All right
Deserved to mean our legendary PPSh

[cobalt]

Here it seems Fritz with PPD-40, the forerunner of PPSh.

[svp67]

Quote: cobalt

It seems to me that during the war the Germans used PPSh no less than our MP-40. Photos of Fritz with PPSh quite a lot. Here is another one.

They ONLY officially had two SS divisions equipped with them, not to mention the personal initiative of the soldiers ..

[cobalt]

And ours dabbled with captured weapons. Here is a photo of our fighters from the MG-34.

[anomalocaris]

The one on the left is PPD-40.

[cobalt]

And I also found a photo of Fritz and with SVT.

[Genady1976]

here is another moment

[kirpich]

Quote: Alf

And, in this case, 71 rounds are better than 35 rounds. Especially when the battle is taking place in the city at very short distances, where there is no time to count how many rounds you have left and there is no time for a more frequent change of the store.

Vootoot ... Now the question. Which PP do you better handle in hand-to-hand combat with a 71-cartridge disc or a 35-horn? Longer .. there was a lull. Which store do you equip faster?
And, more ... In a hand-to-hand horn gives more chances of survival (IMHO)

[svp67]

Quote: kirpich

And, more ... In a hand-to-hand horn gives more chances of survival (IMHO)

-How to say, it was not uncommon for the "disk" to serve as a kind of shield ... For me, if the PCA is used only for a short time or until the cartridges are used up, then the "disk" is certainly better, but if you have to fight for a long time, then the "horn" is preferable. ..

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: kirpich

In a hand-to-hand horn gives a better chance of survival

Quote: svp67

how to say, it was not uncommon for a "disk" to serve as a kind of shield ..

Maybe someone will come in handy

[svp67]

Quote: Thunderbolt

Maybe someone will come in handy

Class, only a side kick with a butt, for PPSh will be more effective than just a barrel poke

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: svp67

a side strike with a butt, for PPSh will be more effective than just a barrel poke

There is such a thing

[svp67]

Quote: Thunderbolt

There is such a thing

I think this is more serious ...

[datur]

THE MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON OF THE 2ND WORLD WAR !!!!!!!

[Cyber7]

Quote: Avenger711

Your naivety is amazing, after the first 1-2 shots the weapon looks anywhere, but not at the enemy

Your naivety is striking, you do not understand the difference in a weapon that covers a distance of 200 meters with dense fire, from a weapon that knocks out the enemy at a distance of 1500 meters. And you, apparently, have never held a PPSh in your hands. After 1-2 shots, its barrel does not "look anywhere", which is why it was used in WWII, and is still used by amers in Afghanistan.

[VAF]

Quote: Cyber7

Your naivety is amazing

Just not naivety, but OST !!! +!

Quote: Cyber7

You don’t understand the difference in weapons,

How can he understand if the last time he has never served in the army, but everything that seems like he saw or .. "knows" according to pictures on the internet

Quote: Cyber7

And you, apparently, never held in your hands the PCA.

Of course not. he is .. the WHITE ... "specialclaw"

[Alf]

Quote: kirpich

ooot ... Now the question. Which PP do you better handle in hand-to-hand combat with a 71-cartridge disc or a 35-horn?

If I have 71 rounds, then things may not get to the melee. In addition, an extra kilogram in a hand in a scuffle will not be superfluous. If there is a lull, then the recharge time is not so critical.

[Cyber7]

The reasons why amers in Afghanistan use it.
The first - in automatic shooting at fire density he has no equal. Indoors and at a direct line of sight.
The second is the capacity of the store. 71 rounds is not 30.
The third is reliability. To wipe and grease the three main parts is much easier than to disassemble the M-16.
Fourth - with a wooden butt you can without hesitation hit in the face, and a plastic one with M-16 will fail after the first blow. Because they are in hand-to-hand and do not use.
There are a couple more specific.

[Bosk]

Who served in hot countries knows that a tree in a sweaty hand lies much better than plastic ... (maybe out of place ... but I remembered)

[Black Colonel]

In the melee, the M-16 will fly faster, and even under the contract, the Amerian soldier should not do this due to the increased probability of damage to military property , and therefore the insurance company will not reimburse the repair of the mutilated vinar.

[Alf]

Quote: anomalocaris

Not only that. In addition, you lose sight of the fact that the Americans have M1 carbine, for all controversy, this unit was superior to any submachine gun of the time by head. And Americans developed and actively applied PP.

Yeah, especially in rate of fire. More or less normal Thompson went into the series in the 43rd. Yes, and the M3 did not go into the series either from a good life — Thompson demanded a large number of machine tools. PPSh and PPS were almost completely produced by stamping. Result-PPSh-6 mil. 173 thousand, Thompson-1 million. 387 thousand.

[anomalocaris]

More or less normal Thompson went into series in 1927. In 1941 a simplified version was released. But in 1943 he went into the series as an M3 frame.
Periodically, in small batches, the M1 carabiner was also made in an automatic version (by the way, the prototype still had the possibility of automatic firing) at the end of 1944 a standard modification appeared with a fire mode translator.
This conversation is simply about the fact that the US Army, in general, did not feel an extreme need for PP. And if you take into account the disgusting ballistics of the .45АКП cartridge bullet at distances over 50 m, then there was nothing to do such an aggregate on.

[Revolver]

Quote: anomalocaris

in small batches the M1 carabiner was also made in automatic version

Yes, the M1 was rather weak, a North Korean in a quilted jacket did not fire a burst of 4-5 cartridges even close, so there was an order to aim at the head from the carbine whenever possible. And Tokarev's 7.62x25 cartridge is not like a PPSh, even a standard American police body armor pierces from a TT. The TT has a reputation for being a "cop killer" here because it is cheap, lightweight, flat, and powerful.
And so the M1 toy is nice and beautiful, I had to hold it in my hands.

[anomalocaris]

Well, these are fairy tales. Cartridge .30Carabiner twice as powerful ?, 62X25.
Another conversation is that the TT cartridge had a bullet with a steel core.
As far as possible, I will also shoot in the head, just after shooting my skull, the enemy will not be guaranteed to shoot.

[combat192]

There is much debate about the feasibility of switching to the 32's cartridge store.
The main version is the convenience in combat use (debatable).
2 version. Due to the imperfection of the technological equipment, disk stores individually adapted to the machines, and often the stores of one machine did not fit the other. In the 32's cartridge version, this shortcoming was not just eliminated, but in view of the simplicity of production, it facilitated the selection of stores that are more suitable for all automatic machines.
And finally, the extreme version. Often the Red Army men used PPSh as a stool. They put it on the butt and sat on a round, relatively convenient store. Naturally, over time, this led to deformations and, as a result, to distortions of the cartridges during re-entry and delays in shooting. And you can’t sit comfortably at a carob store.

[anomalocaris]

This is all right. I will add a couple of points: the sector store was much cheaper and with it the PPSh had a much more convenient shape.

[deman73]

An excellent machine for close combat is very reliable and easy to operate; the only drawback is the weight of the machine in my opinion, which by the way depends on the store, and since the machine is good, no words

[Genady1976]

They found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

[cobalt]

Here is a photo where a USP soldier uses PPSh to clean a building.

[Genady1976]

And my photo is visible Today, 21:37 ↑

[SHARK]

Shpagin was good for everyone, and here you have the technological effectiveness of production, a powerful cartridge, firing range for the PP, but there was one significant minus - the rate of fire, however, Sudayev corrected it, everything ingenious was simple, by increasing the shutter speed, although the PPS was not intended for infantry but for scouts , for the PCA was also heavy for the crews of equipment, for the butt was not folding. It should be noted that if the PPSh was no better, it was not worse than the mp-40, and the Thompson and the one were superior, because the .45 cartridge was originally created for pistols and not for automatic firing and the range of targeted shooting did not exceed 50 meters.

[Genady1976]

and here is another aggressor

[SHARK]

and more demons

[Marconi41]

PPSh is simplicity and terrible rate of fire!

[shinobi]

With minimal refinement (folding adjustable butt, pistol grip, picotini frame, screw cage) made of modern steel for modern PPSh cartridges will be very relevant in police special forces.

[Bosk]

And if muddied with materials ... then you can remove a kilo and a half.

[Bokdan1700]

PCA is very quick on this, he LEGEND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Droid]

Quote: Timeout

Dear, did you hold SVT in your hands? What you described in the comment is complete nonsense. If not, go to the rzhmag and ask to show the store from SVT and Tiger and you will find not many differences.

In fact, the Konstantinov store chambered for 7,62x54R is the most reliable. Neither before nor after it was possible to create a better one. For details on the designers, they will probably be able to explain why this happens.

Quote: Timeout

At the expense of the gas regulator, the rifle was intended for a well-trained fighter, and not for those called up from the reserve of World War 1 veterans or boys after school desk.

And for whom was DP intended? For persons with secondary technical education? And Maxim for people with higher technical education? Something such problems were not with them.

Quote: Timeout

To clean the vent assembly of any weapon with vent automation, disassembly of the weapon is required.

What else is cleansing? We are talking about the fact that in the process of battle it was often necessary to switch the gas regulator to a larger hole due to pollution of the rifle with soot or dust (war is not a shooting range). It is in the PC that you can take a cartridge, insert the welt into the slot of the regulator and turn it, and for the SVT, incomplete disassembly of the rifle and a special key were required.

Quote: Timeout

Many simply had no idea about disassembling the CBT. And any weapon requires care, even if the three-line dirt gets under the shutter stem will have an elementary wedge! In the instruction of the SVT on shooting, a soldier in the case of extended hostilities was recommended to set the gas regulator to maximum.

But for some reason, the problems arose exclusively with SVT. Neither with DP, nor with Maxim, nor with PPSh this was not. And the instruction to the SVT says that the larger the regulator’s hole, the faster the rifle will come out of standing.

Quote: Timeout

So the problem was not in weapons, but in users. And this rifle was withdrawn from service due to the report of one nearby member of the Armed Forces. And the most important thing! the famous FN FAL is a complete CBT clone for automation. So much for the vicious system ...

Yeah. Probably for PPSh and DP selected special people. The truth is, the question arises - what, for SVT people were not found? Run out of? And there were no problems with AK after the war, this is probably because suddenly people were found for such complex weapons. Not otherwise caused by the wind.

[ramsi]

I agree with you; at the expense of cleaning the gas outlet (akm) - I remember that in 2 years of service no one cleaned it at our place (and didn’t force it!)

[timeout]

Droid

Not going to argue with you anymore! Since I myself am the owner of the SVT 1941 release (military). Initially, on the acquisition of 300 shots fired without cleaning. For some reason I didn’t notice Nedoslov, non-blowouts, I see a blind man ...

It’s interesting to hear from you some other pearls taken from Wikipedia

[2news]

Quote: Timeout

Initially, on the acquisition of 300 shots fired without cleaning. For some reason I didn’t notice Nedoslov, non-blowouts, I see a blind man ...

Oh wow. As many as 10 minutes of battle of medium intensity, and not one delay. And completely without cleaning. That, yes, this is an argument.

Quote: Timeout

Since I myself am the owner of the SVT 1941 release (military).

When you regulate the gas outlet regulator, be careful there. Otherwise, underscore, there will be delays from the shutter not reaching. And twist, the bolt will quickly break the box and chamber. We'll have to buy a new "happiness".

[anomalocaris]

Quote: Droid

what else is cleaning? We are talking about the fact that in the process of battle it was often necessary to switch the gas regulator to a larger hole due to pollution of the rifle with soot or dust (war is not a shooting range). It is in the PC that you can take a cartridge, insert the welt into the slot of the regulator and turn it, and for the SVT, incomplete disassembly of the rifle and a special key were required.

Yeah. And two more specially trained hammers ...
Himself not funny? The CBT gas regulator could be rearranged without disassembly. It’s just that you are repeating rather moronic tales of those who have never encountered this unit.

[Alf]

Quote: anomalocaris

More or less normal Thompson went into series in 1927. In 1941 a simplified version was released. But in 1943 he went into the series as an M3 frame.

Thompson M1 went into production in 43. A 30-round magazine was used, production was simplified. And at 27, the M1927 went into the series, with a very capacious 50-round magazine, but very heavy and the M1927 stood in the SERIES like a car!

[anomalocaris]

Mdya ...
This cannot be cured. Well, at least try to read "Small Arms Yesterday". This book, of course, is not the last revelation, but at least it describes the main variations and years of release.
I did not ask or say how much it cost. And with the release of 200 pieces per year, any sample of small arms will be "gold".
Moreover, at the request of a person I respect, I painted a pneumatic pistol for his daughter. Well, he had no money to buy "Anschutz". When I figured out how much this barrel actually cost, I just fell out. But it cost so much, only because it was made in only two copies.

[Droid]

Quote: anomalocaris

Yeah. And two more specially trained hammers ...
Himself not funny? The CBT gas regulator could be rearranged without disassembly. It’s just that you are repeating rather moronic tales of those who have never encountered this unit.

I'm not laughing. And you should open and read the SVT-40 NSD, on page 86.

[anomalocaris]

All these operations are much simpler. Although the cover must be removed.

[Droid]

Partially disassemble in battle to switch the regulator? It is not surprising that the fighters at least once faced with such a problem set the regulator to the maximum and did not touch it anymore. Which accordingly led to accelerated wear and failure of the weapon.

By the way, a situation similar to SVT was obtained with the DS-39. They adopted Maxim instead, and during the war it turned out that reliability was low and urgently turned off the production of DS and launched Maxim into production. But no one thought of nodding at prices or claiming that the DS was only for trained soldiers, and the veterans of the WWII and Civil and Maxim would do.

[anomalocaris]

Do you seriously believe that the CBT gas regulator had to be switched every 5 minutes? I'm in shock, and I just have no words.
With the DS-39, a completely different situation turned out. But this is a topic for another discussion.

[Droid]

Do you seriously believe that the CBT gas regulator had to be switched every 5 minutes?

It had to be switched regularly. Naturally, in the war they scored it.

[anomalocaris]

Regularly? And I thought that only by necessity, in accordance with the shooting conditions ...
Well, okay, I'm just very stupid, very old, fat and gray-haired, I just don’t know what you know.
By the way, have you ever held SVT in your hands?

[Sour]

Not every 5 minutes, but depending on the air temperature. And this had to be done with a special key, which was easily lost, especially in a combat situation.
The cost of SVT was greater than that of a light machine gun.
There were two expensive steel grades, smelted specifically for CBT and not used anywhere else.
A terrible drawback of the SVT was that with frequent firing, accompanied by heating of the parts, the fired cartridge case was often not thrown away, but was sent back to the chamber.
The high sensitivity of CBT automation to pollution was hardly noticeable in peacetime, but not in war.
On the basis of SVT, they created the OSK-88 hunting carbine, which differed from the SVT in fact only by the deteriorated obturation of the barrel bore (like all domestic hunting carbines). The OSK-88 was not popular with hunters, because hunters, as a rule, are people of a practical mindset. They preferred other weapons for the same cartridge (KO-44 or "Tiger").

[anomalocaris]

I really do not recommend reading Wikipedia at night.
By the way, explain that there is a "deterioration in the obturation of the barrel bore" in relation to a cartridge in a metal sleeve. This is very extraordinary.

[Sour]

I explain. The channels of the barrel of hunting carbines are all "nimble", i.e. bored out slightly more than under the nominal caliber. I know this as any hunter (and you, judging by your not entirely pertinent questions, are not a hunter). Nimble barrels allow for more propellant gases to penetrate forward than army barrels of the same caliber. This is done on purpose to degrade the quality of a hunting weapon in comparison with a combat one. This also applies to KO-44, and "Tiger", and "Vepr", and the hunting version of SKS, and OSK-88. Such trunks are called by specialists "OP" ("opeshnye", or hunting and commercial).
I was familiar with the man who used the SVT as a hunting rifle and hunted more than once. He lived for a long time in the Amur Region, where he was engaged in both commercial and amateur hunting. Of the SKS as a hunting weapon, he had an extremely low opinion, preferred KO-44 despite the lower rate of fire. I believe him, because more than once convinced of his qualifications as a hunter. And leave your advice on what to read for the night and what not, to yourself. I did not hire you as advisers.

[anomalocaris]

You can only play smooth trunks. This I can tell you, as a person more than once jaunted. So tell these terrible tales somewhere in unspoiled Europe (in the states it will not work).
Rifled weapons in internal ballistics are very different from smooth ones. Therefore, ways to reduce combat effectiveness (well, I don’t understand what the hell) rifled weapons are achieved in other ways.

[Sour]

All barrels marked "OP" are nimble. This is known to everyone who bought hunting rifles and hunted with them. A metal layer is removed at the factory with a special tool (this increases the diameter of the barrel bore and decreases the depth of the grooves), a special pin is added to facilitate the identification of the weapon by the bullet, the carbine is fired, then the OP is stamped, and after that the carbine goes on sale. If you do not know this, then this is purely your problem.
Of course, this is not the case in the factory advertisement. But there are many things that are not there. Everyone knows that the "OP" barrels are different from the army ones.
And do not tell me about the differences in ballistics. I am a hunter with 18 years of experience and an engineer by training, so I understand it myself. And I am familiar with small arms not only in books. Sorry, but he wore epaulets of different colors for 22 years, and he sniffed gunpowder not only on the hunt.
Hunting carbines without the "OP" mark are not sold. Some people order non-fusible barrels in a not completely legal way, interrupt the markings on them and put them on their carbines. Formally, such re-equipment is not criminally punishable; there is no article in the Criminal Code. Another thing is that army-type barrels are not legally sold.
The "OP" barrels were checked more than once, the real caliber of the new barrels is 7,66-7,67 mm, and that of the army ones is 7,62-7,63. This is despite the fact that the cartridges are the same, only hunting can have semi-sheathed bullets.
Everything that I wrote is known to any hunter.
"Don't you know what the hell is for?" Very simple. The circulation of rifled weapons in our country is generally limited. Yes and no in the production of specialized purely hunting carbines. All hunting carbines in Russia are army modifications. The authorities were simply afraid and are afraid to sell military weapons. And there are enough reasons for that. And there were no special hunting carbines in Russia, and still are not. Carbines were produced chambered for 9 by 53, but this is also an ersatz. Not that steep trajectory, and the caliber is rather weak for the same bear. In the European Union, even for shooting deer, a cartridge 9,3 by 74 is used.

[Sour]

(((By the way, explain that there is a "deterioration in the obturation of the barrel bore" in relation to a cartridge in a metal case. This is very extraordinary.)))
This is generally interesting and even "extraordinary". And where does the sleeve come in when it comes to the bore? I kind of clearly said about the bore, not the chamber. The occluding properties of the bore do not depend on the type of cartridge. This is understandable to a drunken hedgehog.

[Alf]

Quote: deman73

An excellent machine for close combat is very reliable and easy to operate; the only drawback is the weight of the machine in my opinion, which by the way depends on the store, and since the machine is good, no words

Sorry, not a submachine gun, but a submachine gun. And, by weight, this is not always a drawback. If the battle is in the city, with constant runs, then the weight is large, and if shooting from a trench and, accordingly, from the stop, then a large mass stabilizes the weapon.

[Alf]

Quote: svp67

Quote: Alf
Not better. PPP had worse accuracy due to a more flimsy stock. These systems complemented each other.
But he didn’t shoot spontaneously, and the fragility of the folding stock is now completely removable, but the presence of a lower rate of fire plays on accuracy and efficiency ...

As far as I know, the spontaneity of the shot was, on the contrary, in PPS, and not in PPSh. Having a lower rate of fire does not always affect accuracy. Look at the History of Russian small arms from the Kyrgyz Republic, it is clearly visible that at the firing range, the PPSh is stationary at a short line, and the withdrawal of the barrel begins after 4-5 bullets fly out of the barrel.

[Alf]

Quote: anomalocaris

I did not ask or say how much it cost. And with the release of 200 pieces per year, any sample of small arms will be "gold".

The cost of a weapon also depends on its manufacturability, but what kind of manufacturability are we talking about if most parts are manufactured on machine tools? And what prevented the increase in production of the Thompson-rich country, did not bomb? It was technological effectiveness (or rather, its absence) that interfered. Why, then, did the amers launch the M3 in 43 (and it was just stamping that was done)? Yes, because it was not possible to significantly reduce the cost and simplify the thompson in 43 even in the M1A1 version. If you have never encountered a production problem, then this is not treated ...

[anomalocaris]

M3 - stamped? Okstetel. The body is a seamless pipe, the shutter is chiseled. How to make a barrel by stamping, I personally can’t imagine, can you tell me?
The Thompson had a solid-milled receiver in any case. And this constructive decision could not be bypassed in any way.
It's just that when they talk about "stamped" PP they mean that the receiver is made with minimal use of metal-cutting machines.
And the cost depends primarily on the volume of production. Just if the task is to make one or two copies, then you can depict them manually, and if you need to make a couple of millions, then a different approach is already required.

[Droid]

Quote: anomalocaris

Regularly? And I thought that only by necessity, in accordance with the shooting conditions ...

And the need can not arise regularly? Moreover, the need to rearrange the regulator arose already after 800-1000 rounds of a brand new rifle, just because of the shot. And the claim is not to the fact of the permutation itself, but to its method.

Quote: anomalocaris

Well, okay, I'm just very stupid, very old, fat and gray-haired, I just don’t know what you know.
By the way, have you ever held SVT in your hands?

Counterquestion. And you six months, fighting off attacks, in a trench with SVT sat? Or maybe a month, another in the woods staggered with her overnight on bare ground?
And why didn’t they complain about the low reliability of PPSh, PPS, DP?

[anomalocaris]

SVT wearable ammunition 250 rounds. ! 000 shots are four ammunition. You know, it’s actually necessary to clean weapons. At least sometimes.
Well, I did not sit with SVT. But you know, if in six months you don’t find time to clean your weapon, then the three-ruler will refuse.

[Droid]

You know, it’s actually necessary to clean weapons. At least sometimes.

Any weapon, not just SVT. And it was about shot, and not a one-time shooting. In 2 days, 800-1000 rounds of ammunition will be shot or in a year does not play a role. When shooting in 800-1000 shots, it is necessary to rearrange the regulator to a smaller hole (under normal conditions).

Well, I did not sit with SVT. But you know, if in six months you don’t find time to clean your weapon, then the three-ruler will refuse.

And those who sat with her, for the most part, responded unflattering. And about PPSh, PPS, DP there were no such reviews. I don’t remember about Maxim. Why were there specially trained fighters for all these weapons that served the weapons as expected, but weren’t found for the SVT? Don't you find this strange? Or maybe with SVT, something is wrong? Maybe she just could not stand the harsh conditions of the war, unlike other models?