Military Review

dive-bomber

133



The question of whether the civil war in Spain (1937-1939) can be considered the rehearsal of the Second World War remains debatable, but one thing is certain - it was in the battles on the Iberian Peninsula that the latest types of military equipment of the USSR and the Third Reich first met and tested each other for strength . The experience of these battles had to urgently draw lessons, sometimes very bitter. Last but not least aviation.

The SB bomber (“High-speed bomber”), launched into serial production in 1934, was deservedly considered the pride of the Soviet aircraft industry. The SAT developed speeds up to 350 km / h, which made it almost invulnerable to the fighters of that time. However, this advantage did not last long. In Spain, the Security Council has a dangerous enemy - the German fighter Bf.109B - an early modification of the famous Messershmit. With the appearance on the battlefield of this fighter, the SB is suddenly outdated. Having inadequate defensive armament and having lost their advantage in speed and altitude, the squadron of the SB was virtually defenseless. Losses have dramatically increased, which, in turn, forced us to urgently start creating a fundamentally new machine with a fundamentally new tactic of application.


Bomber SB ("High-speed bomber")

World trend

In general, in the interwar years, all the aviation powers, as if by magic, rushed to develop dive bombers. The fact is that the classic, “horizontal” bombing from “safe” heights for an aircraft demonstrated a low accuracy, primarily due to the imperfection of aircraft sights and the lack of adjustable bombs. At the same time, anti-aircraft artillery did not allow bombing from low altitudes: during bomb dropping the aircraft must strictly maintain the combat course, which means to miss. Thus, flying in a straight line and not a maneuvering bomber was just a "school" target for gunners. The exit was found by the Americans who were the first to create a plane specifically designed for dropping bombs in a dive. As it turned out later, the decision was correct: during a dive attack, a bomber becomes a difficult target for anti-aircraft gunners, and the accuracy of bombing increases at the same time. The fighting over Poland clearly demonstrated the high efficiency of the new German dive bomber Junkers Ju 87 Stuka, initiated by the creation of the famous ace of the First World War Ernst Udet.


dive-bomber

Ju 87 Stuka was rightly considered one of the most famous aircraft in the world. Despite the ridiculous appearance and mediocre flight data, it was a very effective bomber.

The birth of "pawn"

The development of the Soviet dive bomber on the basis of the high-altitude fighter 100 that did not go into the series began just at the dawn of war, in 1938, in the famous Tupolev Sharashka TsKB-29. It was one of the prison design offices that belonged to the Special Department of the NKVD. The entire composition of engineers consisted of convicted "enemies of the people", and the chief designer was formally someone Kutepov - Colonel of the NKVD, a former electrician. In fact, the head of the group of engineers involved in the new aircraft was Vladimir Petlyakov. The works were going at a very fast pace: only a month and a half was allotted to reworking the 100 fighter into a diving bomber. Since the new aircraft had to fly at low and medium altitudes, it was necessary to abandon the installation of the thermocabin and turbochargers provided for on the original aircraft. Nevertheless, during the first flights the aircraft showed very good performance. The reputation of the new car did not prevent even a few accidents that occurred during the tests due to engine failures. The military was in a hurry to launch a plane called the Pe-2 into the series. They were in such a hurry that the “reference” machine sample was released “in hindsight”.

The rush was not in vain: the Second World War began, and although the Soviet Union has not yet taken an open part in it, it was clear that the time to prepare for combat was estimated in months, but for the Soviet air forces the Pe-2 was really a step forward. The pilots immediately noted the fact that, compared with the sluggish SS, the flight characteristics of the Pe 2 were much higher: the new bomber had found the “golden mean” between stability and maneuverability. An important plus was the fact that the plane finally appeared reliable and convenient communication between the pilot, navigator and gunner. Pe-2 received protected fuel tanks (which significantly improved its survivability), and electric motors were widely used in controls, which greatly facilitated the piloting of the aircraft. Nevertheless, the Pe-2 was strict in control, especially at low speeds, and demanded attention and accuracy from the pilot (therefore, at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, when the level of training of the flight crew was simply terrible, many young crews crashed during the landing). The bomb load was 600 kg, and when overloaded - a ton (many considered it insufficient for an aircraft of this class). The small weight of the bombs was primarily due to the fact that at the exit from the dive, the power elements of the Pe-2 design had to withstand enormous loads - a large safety factor had to be laid during the development. For this and donated part of the bomb load. To reduce speed when diving under the wings of the Pe-2, air brakes were installed - folding steel-tube grilles. Due to their deflection perpendicular to the air flow, effective speed quenching was achieved. The electric drive of the air brakes was controlled by the AP-1 “dive machine”. The pawn's defensive armament initially consisted of four 7,62-mm ShKAS aviation machine guns, two of which were mounted motionless in the nose of the aircraft. The rest of the machine guns were mounted in mobile pivot installations at the places of the navigator and gunner and had a limited sector of fire.


Pe-2

By June 1941, the X-NUMX of the Pe-904 was released, most of which, unfortunately, were soon irretrievably lost either on the ground or during poorly prepared sorties. The situation was aggravated by the fact that the pilots did not have time to fully master the zealous machine and, moreover, were practically not trained in dive bombing. Criticism was also caused by weak defensive armament: machine guns with rifle-caliber were clearly not enough against the new Messerschmitt Bf2G fighters capable of attacking bombers from a safe distance with impunity. Only in 109, the “pawn” finally received the powerful and reliable large-caliber machine guns of the Berezin system. At the same time, many design flaws that were discovered during operation were eliminated. The car has received new forced engines, while aerodynamics has also been improved. With such modifications, the “extermination past” of the Pe-1942 quickly made itself felt - now the “messer” (“thin”, as our pilots called it), recklessly left alone with the “petlyakov”, had every chance to be in the role of victim - some crews Pe-2 had already counted five downed aircraft! On the front, there were frequent cases when "pawns" who accidentally discovered a group of enemy bombers in flight took on the role of fighters ...


Messerschmitt Bf109G

Chronicles of dive bombers: who is better?

Many historians have taken to compare Pe-2 and lapotnik Junkers Ju 87. Conclusions while doing the most diverse. But, despite similar tasks, comparing these planes is not entirely correct. It should be recognized that the accuracy of hitting Ju 87 was slightly higher than that of the “pawn”, since the Junkers dropped bombs from a height of just 600 – 700 m, unlike Pe-2, which bombed at least a kilometer. In such conditions, the pilot of the "Junkers" had the opportunity to aim almost "point-blank", taking corrections, based on weather reports, "by eye". In addition, the lapotnik swooped at a relatively low speed (around 600 km / h), and the pilot had enough time to correct the flight path.

But the low-speed "lapotnik" was a disadvantage. Junkers Ju 87 is not in vain considered to be one of the symbols of the "blitzkrieg" - it was intended for actions in the conditions of the enemy’s inadequately active air defense. Otherwise, the advantages of a slow and poorly protected “Junkers” were quickly reduced to a minimum. When the number of Soviet fighters and the level of training of their pilots began to grow, the losses of Ju 87 increased dramatically, forcing the Germans to bomb only from great heights and accompany the “Junkers” with good fighter cover, and the lack of on-board automation capable of introducing all the corrections necessary for an attack from a large heights, negatively affected accuracy. An error in the direction of the plane just one degree gave a miss in 50 m.

Soviet designers solved this problem by adding one more crew member to help the pilot. Thus, targeting the Pe-2 to the target was "double." The navigator measured the speed and direction of the wind (to determine the "demolition" of the bomb and the aircraft itself), calculated the "combat turning angle" and set the scope, while the pilot held the target at the crosshair and tried to withstand the maximum dive trajectory. It was due to this “division of labor” that the accuracy of the hit was 40 – 50 m (this was quite enough), and an experienced pawn crew could lay a bomb in a ten-meter circle. In addition, the faster and better armed Pe-2 is smaller than the Ju 87, it needed fighter cover and suffered less from anti-aircraft fire. By the way, in 1944, the Germans attempted to use the Focke-Wulf Fw190F fighter as a diving bomber, which was significantly superior to the Pe-2 and Ju 87 in flight performance. The main advantage was that, freed from the bomb load, this dive-bomber could easily fight back any fighter. However, experience has shown that the accuracy of the Fw190F hit was significantly lower than that of the “old” Ju 87. This was primarily due to the increased speed of the dive: the heavy and powerful Focke-Wulf accelerated rapidly during the dive, and even the high-class pilot simply did not have time to control the plane and aim. As time has shown, only the development of electronics has made dive-bombing quite comfortable for a single-person pilot.


Focke-Wulf Fw190
Designed by Kurt Tank, still receives mixed reviews from military and historians. At the time of creation, the most advanced technologies were applied in this aircraft. The Focke-Wulf was very effective against bombers, but the strike version of this machine in the Luftwaffe did not take root. The depicted modification of the Fw190D - the "Long-nosed Dora" (with a star-shaped air-cooled engine) - was designed to combat the "flying fortresses"


Only at the end of 1944, the question arose of replacing the Pe-2 with the more advanced Tu-2 dive bomber, but the Petlyakov machine remained the main Soviet front-line bomber until the very end of the war. Most of the pilots who were tantalizing the quick "pawn" did not touch the soul on their plane, considering it to be the most perfect machine in its class.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.popmech.ru
133 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. papik09
    papik09 19 July 2013 08: 02
    +3
    The article is very good. Thank. (I put a plus, I wanted more, but ... this is impossible, unfortunately) hi
    1. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 19 July 2013 15: 41
      0
      Unfortunately, we didn’t have a diving bomber with an effective accuracy, such as the Junkers Ju 87 launcher with a bomb load of more than 1000 kg.
      Yes, the Ju 87 has a low speed, non-retractable landing gear, BUT in terms of the effect of bombing on point targets, it was unmatched, its dive angle was 60-90 degrees. Read the memoirs of the front-line soldiers, how they got bored with this howling (there was a special siren) dive bomber, which usually appeared after the reconnaissance "frame" - "Focke-Wulf" Fw 189.
      Yes, Ju 87 needed a fighter cover, and which bomber or attack aircraft did not need fighters at the time, all needed.
      Our specialists, headed by aircraft designer Alexander Yakovlev, being in Germany before the war, at the invitation of the German leadership, examined and purchased samples of German aircraft. And they "missed", did not pay attention to the Ju 87, because of its "archaic appearance" with fixed landing gear, with a low speed, than they made an irreparable mistake, having missed the future "legendary blitzkrieg aircraft".
      Since 1943, the Germans equipped the Ju 87 with a 37 mm cannon to destroy tanks and the aircraft acquired new properties. The German ace Hans Ulrich Rudel, who flew the entire war on Ju 87, destroyed more than 500 tanks on such an aircraft, according to the Germans.
      Dive aircraft and attack aircraft are different aircraft in use. In modern warfare, helicopters took the place of a dive bomber on the battlefield.
      1. smile
        smile 19 July 2013 16: 54
        +4
        vladimirZ
        The Germans say about 500 Rudel tanks insolent lies. Too lazy to poke around, later Den11 will appear, he is also a fan of aviation. like Kars-tanks, and clearly on this topic will be noted, despite the fact. that the Luftwaffe is addicted. which I do not like ... :)))
        2 gunner’s guns suspended under the wings were ineffective, due to the small ammunition and the difficulty of hitting a small target such as a tank. And it was these guns that transformed the junkers from a dive into a weakly armored low-speed attack aircraft ... the idea did not justify itself in any way, including why it was no longer produced.
        And do not believe in Rudel's fairy tales ... for fun, run the toy Il2. stand the settings as in life and try to fill as many tanks, at least with youboms, at least with guns .... SAVING AT THIS LIFE ... nothing will work for you under any conditions, at least play all your life ... AND THIS IS IN THE TOY, where it’s all I don’t know, how many orders of magnitude easier ... yeah, still try to make 7-8 flights a day (there is real time from take-off to landing) .... illusions will decrease, I guarantee.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 19 July 2013 18: 02
          +2
          We are not talking about "the reliability of Rudel's result" about which I said "according to the Germans," but about the capabilities of the Ju 87 aircraft. We are interested in the AIRPLANE as a military machine and comparing it with our similar machines.

          Read the memoirs of front-line soldiers, for example, what first came to mind, "Vanka company" by A. Shumilin. The episode when his platoon held the defense from tanks with machine guns. The machine gun guarding the "rear" of the platoon and the fighters, who did not take cover when the Ju 87 appeared, were struck by an accurate bomb hit in the trench.
          The Ju 87G was equipped with 2 cannons with 12 tungsten rounds per gun, so it was enough to hit the tank in the stern. Remember, on German tanks, an awning with a cross was pulled on top of the engine compartment to distinguish "their" tanks.
          The Germans are smart warriors, their engineers "knew how to make" good cars and good military equipment. Remember, the Germans were the first to use combat jet aircraft, FAU-1 cruise missiles, FAU-2 ballistic missiles, etc. in mass production in the war.
          Do not play down the dignity of the enemy, you thereby belittle the feat of our soldiers, fathers and grandfathers who prevailed over a strong and intelligent enemy.
          1. smile
            smile 19 July 2013 20: 56
            +2
            vladimirZ
            Soooo ... A lapper with two cannons mounted under wings with 12 shells was at times vulnerable and at times less maneuverable ... and in general, HOW AIRPLANE, already in 41, without any guns, he was a good clear sky machine .. .when air superiority is won and there is simply no counteraction to fighter aircraft ... that’s exactly their song - all German companies are up to us. and then - summer-autumn 41 and summer 42 ... all ....
            don’t tell me about a bomb falling into a trench, otherwise I’ll tell you about a heel torn by an anti-personnel mine, an automatic bullet that got into my calf muscle, when I went for a pee in the bushes that went into half at night, and I didn’t hear a shot ... they pulled out with pliers ..piring from a yell ... already in the morning ... and about how my grandfather hit an 76 mm armor-piercing projectile in the viewing slot of an assault gun .... aimed at a truck ...
            Germans are smart and skillful warriors, engineers, we don’t downplay their strength, we really appreciate it .... and you spin nonsense ... how to evaluate your nonsense ... at least normal Germans would be revered .... and So.....
          2. Alex
            Alex 12 February 2014 22: 18
            +2
            vladimirZ
            I agree, the understatement of the feat of ancestors is disgusting and muck. But there is no need to praise the enemy, allegedly exalting our fighters.
            87 guns with 2 shells with tungsten cores for each gun were installed on the Ju 12G, so it’s quite enough to hit the tank in the stern.
            If you get ... Snipers on tanks in aviation somehow did not grow.

            Remember
            Let's.

            the Germans were the first to use combat jet aircraft in the mass production war,
            What is it, unfinished Me-262, which had little influence on anything (just don't need "if they had time" ...)? Or a flying canister Me-163, which killed almost half a hundred pilots, shooting down either one or two allied bombers?

            FAU-1 cruise missiles
            Even among the most ardent admirers of the "gloomy Teutonic genius", they now prefer to remain silent about this "wunderwaffle". There was less sense from them than from a goat of milk.

            FAU-2 ballistic missiles
            With accuracy hit 20 km? Yes, they even hardly got into such a bast on a map like London. Something about 2 people died from Fau-2700 (one or two people died from each rocket). Yes, they died more from the Luftwaffe bombing. I am silent about reliability: from 4300, 2000 rockets exploded.

            etc.
            What is hidden behind this sound? I will answer for you: nothing. More precisely, nothing worth considering.
        2. yehat
          yehat 15 June 2016 14: 33
          0
          but I do not agree with you!
          I flew the virpil on my pieces in time, though without a gun
          Yes, the aircraft is low-speed (though 450kmh at an altitude of 2000 could be squeezed out in the game), but it is very maneuverable and can be easily controlled. Anti-aircraft fire can be overcome with the help of maneuverability. For example, I was able to dive with a tapering spiral and precisely lay down the bombs, aligning the dive for literally a few seconds when aiming. I saw documentary footage of how things attack, an extremely maneuverable plane! Jumps like a flea.
          Climbing capabilities of the Ju-87 and simplicity make it possible to compete even with the Ju-88 in flight intensity, although the latter is much faster. It’s not so easy to even aim at it with a 20mm anti-aircraft gun if the plane performs anti-aircraft maneuvers.

          in general, you're talking in vain. The plane is certainly vulnerable, but not hopeless.
          I must say that in Poland and France, in pieces, they often entered into an air battle and shot down.

          ps I had a case of air combat in the Crimean mountains, when on the piece I fought off a joint attack of lagg-3 and yak-1, on which there were very experienced fighters (one crashed without stretching a maneuverable battle in the cramped mountains on the verticals, the second was gradually shot I course machine guns and the rear shooter after numerous attacks). This indicates the potential for self-defense. The aircraft allowed to continuously dodge attacks for more than 5 minutes. True, the bomb had to be dropped nowhere ...
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 19 July 2013 17: 06
        +8
        Quote: vladimirZ
        German ace Hans Ulrich Rudel, who flew the entire war on Ju 87, destroyed more than 500 tanks on such an airplane, according to the Germans.


        I read his "work". Bouncer and liar, 500 tanks - personally destroyed 3 Soviet tank corps ???

        Destroy the T-34 from a 37 mm gun? Hit it possible, but nothing more. And when Rudel began to storm Is armed with an anti-aircraft machine gun, he thundered to the hospital. But Pontus nemeryano
        1. Bosk
          Bosk 19 July 2013 19: 13
          +2
          I recall that he still wrote something about the tank he destroyed ... according to the description, one to one similar to the IS-3. Although I can be mistaken, maybe not he, but he’s definitely a pilot.
        2. yehat
          yehat 15 June 2016 14: 42
          0
          the rudel in the hospital was 15 times
      3. Snoop
        Snoop 19 July 2013 17: 13
        +1
        I will add that for such tanks as T-34-76, T-34-85, IS it was necessary not only to get into them, but in a vulnerable place for 37 mm. shells of aircraft guns in the engine compartment from above. Very difficult. Rudel, even if it hit Soviet tanks, is most likely light, in the year 43 there were enough of them.
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 19 July 2013 17: 29
          +1
          And our specialists missed the "Stuck" only due to the fact that at that time we already had the SU-2.
          A plane that never became famous.
          Although he beat in his parameters all of these Stucks, Glitches, Nakajima.
          Air Force website. RU. airforce.ru
          I guarantee - you will leave happy!
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 19 July 2013 18: 44
            +1
            VladimirZ ....
            whose minus? Don't you know about the "plane of the clear sky"? About the plane of the first strike on "peacefully sleeping airfields"?
            Have you heard of the Pegasus attack aircraft ours?
            Rudel-poodle-poodle ...
            everyone knows how much damage this "Stukas" has done.
            At first.
            And then .. was blown away somehow.
            How did the Fritz lose the war? with such achievements .. Rudel - three tank corps in the trash, Hartmann - eight to nine fighter regiments in the trash, Melders - Baltic Fleet in the trash.
            Did the Germans have only three pilots?
            1. cdrt
              cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 20
              0
              not only Stuck was blown away. In general, the Su-2 did not manifest itself in any way; against the Americans, since the end of 1942, the D3A did not prove itself. Subsequently, single-engine dive-bombers showed results only with a stable (at least local) air superiority. Well and yes, as a DIVER, of course, Piece was more effective than Pe-2 - more precisely. But as a combat aircraft that works effectively in any combat scenario, I think the Pe-2 was undoubtedly higher. Actually confirmed by the number of issued. Although the aircraft itself was not ah at all. With such a weight, only 600kg of load clearly indicates a design backwardness, and of the absence of good powerful engines.
              True, they could and deliberately make it heavier - for the sake of technological effectiveness.
              Still, our aircraft industry was not American or German. Technologically behind very seriously. Accordingly, optimization in simplification was very meaningful.
              1. yehat
                yehat 15 June 2016 14: 44
                0
                Su-2 proved to be very good.
                he was especially good as an artillery spotter and scout.
            2. Day 11
              Day 11 20 July 2013 00: 29
              +1
              By the way, about Pegasus. I did not go into the series
          2. vladimirZ
            vladimirZ 19 July 2013 20: 07
            +2
            SU-2 short-range bomber, a completely different aircraft.
            It is impossible to compare it with the Ju 87 dive bomber, it is "sharpened" for another.
            Yakovlev's commission, when working in Germany, did not pay attention to him, considering it an outdated type of aircraft. Then everyone was infected with the slogan "higher, faster, further" and did not look at the specific purpose of each machine.
            The purpose of the Ju 87 as a "blitzkrieg aircraft" is to participate in air support for the advancing "tank wedges": the destruction of "defense nodes", tanks, artillery pieces, infantry clusters, by delivering a pinpoint strike, and not by bombarding areas like conventional bombers do.
            The Germans adopted the idea of ​​a "dive bomber" from the Americans (who, by the way, did not make this plane) and brought it to a specific Ju 87 plane.
            For a dive bomber, high speed interferes with accurate aiming, so all high-speed dive bombers did not work.
            A dive bomber is an army aviation aircraft, a battlefield aircraft operating "at the request" of infantry commanders, just as helicopters are now operating in our army aviation at the request of motorized infantry.
            This is the value of Ju 87. And the fact that no innovations in military equipment helped the Germans in the war is a merit of our grandfathers and fathers, Glory to them!
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 16
              +2
              I agree absolutely with you! Plus you
              1. smile
                smile 19 July 2013 21: 02
                0
                Buy
                Denis. you praise the guy, your business. but he believed in Rudel’s exploits ... do you really think that the pilot on the raptor was able to burn 500 tanks and stay alive? :)))) Moreover, I am even more interested in the modification of suicides with underwing guns ...
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 10
                  +1
                  ( 2500 shells) carried 300 into the trash? Now I will find (my archive is full of this info)
                  1. smile
                    smile 19 July 2013 21: 44
                    +3
                    Day 11
                    Dan, I believe in single success ...
                    Den, call me what you want, but I know that you don’t want to offend me, and in this case I can be called as you please :)))

                    so, I wrote there above ... 7-8 sorties a day is .... den, THIS is beyond ... ... you can’t tryndet .... do you think. why didn’t a child prodigy with a 75 mm cannon go en masse to the troops, huh? Well, you are smart, you understand everything yourself .... I could have believed Rudel if he had dumped containers with cumulative PTAs on the IL2 in perfect conditions throughout the war ... over tank columns ... the chances of getting there would be more ... and the survival rate is about the same .... and so .... by the way. Well, you clearly read. what other German pilots thought about Rudel and his lies .... why are you protecting? :))))
                    1. Day 11
                      Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 58
                      +2
                      No, old man, I don’t defend him. He’s disgusting to me just like you (because the ideological Nazi). I’m much more pleasant and generally for me the standard of the Luftwaffe fighter pilot --- Werner Mölders!
                      1. smile
                        smile 19 July 2013 23: 03
                        0
                        Day 11
                        This is much better ... :))) And not because. that rudel r ... nuke .... because he had much less chance of getting such an account. than Hartman ... I don’t really believe in the combat score ... just don’t beat me :)))) I don’t have any strength to argue ... but, admit, you specifically mentioned Mölders so that I shut up when I hear the name tag of the respect I respect, eating our bald spots out of the blue? :))))
                      2. Day 11
                        Day 11 19 July 2013 23: 16
                        +1
                        No, not specifically. He is authority for me. He was a fighter and died like a fighter!
                      3. smile
                        smile 20 July 2013 01: 52
                        +1
                        Day 11
                        and for me ..... scary enemy ... scary .....
                  2. cdrt
                    cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 25
                    -1
                    Luftwaffe fighter pilot standard --- Werner Mölders

                    I fully support
              2. Vadivak
                Vadivak 20 July 2013 20: 57
                +2
                Quote: Den 11
                He really had a huge experience.


                Planting trees on trees and ascribing victories to yourself
                The defeat of the T-34-85 tank, which had enhanced armor, when attacking from the side (side - 45 mm, tower - 75 mm) was not ensured at any firing distances. When attacking from behind, the defeat of the T-34-85 was possible only if a shell hit the rear of the turret (armor thickness 52 mm) from distances of up to 400 m. 3.7 when firing from 300 m only at dive angles of at least 30╟. At glide angles up to 10╟, shooting from any distance gave continuous ricochets. Estimates show that in real combat conditions, the probability of hitting a medium Soviet T-34 tank in one run when firing sub-caliber projectiles from VK 3.7 cannons (side attack, gliding angle 5-10 открытия, opening distance 300-400 m) at the best " scenario "could not exceed 0,02-0,03. This means that for a guaranteed defeat of the Soviet "thirty-four" on the battlefield, an outfit of forces of fifty Ju87Gs was required ...

                Quote: Den 11
                he flew on such a prodigy with a 75-mm cannon, which in one salvo (2 shells) carried 34-ku in the trash


                A lie, did not fly

                "Which I have always flown, armed with a 37mm cannon under each wing. The cannons use special tungsten-cored ammunition that can penetrate any armor." On fimg such a hero is 75mm? And he writes that he heard that the gun was tested.

                Here is what G. Rudel writes about this: “EAn experimental anti-tank unit has already been assembled and is undergoing preliminary tests. It has a Ju-87 aircraft with a 75-mm gun mounted under the pilot’s seat. The experiments with the Ju-88 are soon ending, because there are no visible ways to overcome the difficulties encountered, that is, the gun really stood at 88 and even then in single copies
        2. cdrt
          cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 23
          0
          How did the Americans not do a dive?
          And dontless, helldiver are not considered?
          Helldivers alone released the most Pieces combined
        3. yehat
          yehat 15 June 2016 14: 48
          0
          Italians built a very interesting dive - SM.93
          perhaps this is the most perfect dive for 40-45gg
    2. Day 11
      Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 10
      +2
      In-topic: This Rudel teaches (pay attention to the layout)
      1. vladimirZ
        vladimirZ 19 July 2013 20: 26
        +1
        Yes, Rudel shows the place of the strike - in the stern of our T-34 tank. Thanks for the photo.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 35
          +1
          By the way, a very rare photo (I have been fond of this topic for a long time) .Is there an interest to continue the conversation on this topic? Volodya jumped from the topic (or not? SMILE?)
      2. smile
        smile 19 July 2013 21: 08
        0
        Den 11 (4
        Denis ... did you even fly a glider? :))) I drove the two at school:)))) .... you can imagine that in a combat situation, this teacher with a pointer, I’m not talking about students, could go on the attack and hit the t34 in the motor group ... guns with 14 shells .... well, damn it ... you yourself know everything ... so why are you silent? :))))
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 15
          +1
          Vova, that’s why this 87th was created! I didn’t control the glider, I confess. Take a word, for bast shoes it’s quite possible
          1. smile
            smile 19 July 2013 21: 53
            0
            Day 11
            Den11 as always. to you +
            But ... I do not believe ... and not only because I also read something ... including the opinion of experts (we will not now. You know. Why) I have already said above the guy. it is impossible to reproduce in the computer game IL2 ... ANYONE ... do you think Rudel is cooler than tens of thousands of users of the game IL2, huh?
            After that, you can beat me with any filtered German authorities .... half of which mutter mumbling about that. that Rudel is not a good populist, but a good pilot ... only on u87 ...
            1. cdrt
              cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 27
              +2
              do you think Rudel is cooler than tens of thousands of users of the game IL2, huh?

              I think Rudel is cooler than ALL users of the game IL-2 combined laughing laughing
              1. smile
                smile 20 July 2013 01: 42
                0
                Sir ... you are really sure about = sure
                1. Day 11
                  Day 11 20 July 2013 01: 48
                  0
                  Yes, Volodya, you threw yourself thoroughly drinks
    3. cdrt
      cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 10
      +1
      I will add that for such tanks as T-34-76, T-34-85, IS it was necessary not only to get into them, but in a vulnerable place for 37 mm. shells of aircraft guns in the engine compartment from above. Very difficult. Rudel, even if it hit Soviet tanks, is most likely light, in the year 43 there were enough of them.


      And how is the A-10 with a 30mm cannon was a great anti-tank aircraft against the T-64/72/80, when the Stuck with 37mm just could not cope with the T-34 ... the riddle of the century is simple. laughing
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 20 July 2013 02: 56
        0
        Quote: cdrt
        And how is the A-10 with a 30mm gun was a great anti-tank aircraft against the T-64/72/80, when the Stuck with 37mm just could not cope with the T-34

        No need to compare> |
        I don’t remember the A-10 being put up against the T-80 or T-64. But the Iraqi T-72s, not to mention the T-55s and all kinds of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, as well as the randomly british FV107 Scimitar, were burning like candles.
  2. Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 05
    +1
    Rudel was a cattle (one of the few German Luftwaffe pilots). Nazi to the bone! But not a coward (flew without a leg). In the photo of his 1300 sortie
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 45
      -2
      Regarding disputes about his wrecked 519 tanks, it may be exaggerated (slightly), but for so many sorties (and with his skill level), I think that 350 could
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 19 July 2013 20: 52
        +3
        He was just a real maniac. And if not for the war, he would have slaughtered girls and grandmothers in German forest parks. Absolutely no jokes. Many of his biographers note this
      2. Day 11
        Day 11 19 July 2013 20: 56
        +1
        A little more info-Colonel Hans-Ulrich Rudel (far left) commander of the StG2 squadron with colleagues. Rudel is an illustrious ace, pilot of the Junkers U-87 “Shtuka” bomber, the only gentleman of the full bow of the Knight's Cross: with Golden Oak leaves, Swords and Diamonds. According to official figures, it performed 2530 sorties, destroyed 519 tanks, more than 800 vehicles, 150 self-propelled artillery installations, 4 armored trains. Sank the battleship "Marat", the leader of "Minsk", the destroyer "Steregushchiy" and about 70 other ships. He shot down 9 Soviet aircraft - 7 fighters and 2 IL-2. This is the official data.
        1. albert
          albert 19 July 2013 21: 20
          +2
          Quote: Den 11
          Sank the battleship "Marat

          Who then very successfully after his "sinking" fired at the Nazis near Leningrad. It seems to me all of Rudel's "victories" are like that.
          1. cdrt
            cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 34
            +1
            Which then very successfully after his "sinking" fired at the Nazis near Leningrad

            so after lying on the ground it was fired ...
            just a tricky German ... found ... with a screw wink
        2. smile
          smile 19 July 2013 22: 04
          +2
          Day 11
          Dan, we know the official data ... can I find out your attitude? and not only about the destroyed 3 tank corps of the Red Army, which in number corresponded to the 3 divisions of the Wehrmacht .... enviable successes for the tank division of the Wehrmacht. especially since the middle of the war ... :)))) and the very possibility of sorties at least in weather conditions ..... look. how often were the days. in which it was possible to fly ... and the weather is the same for everyone .... though. undoubtedly. the Germans flew more ... but ... a German pilot could always get out of their battle when he counted. that it’s advisable to leave the battle .... regardless of the situation ... with us, it’s not so. you know...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 19 July 2013 22: 14
            +1
            I’ll explain this too. Volodya, and you know that he was in our hands (captured), but the dog was able to escape during transportation
            1. smile
              smile 19 July 2013 23: 06
              +1
              Day 11
              I heard that version. I do not know. believe it or not ... out. Hartman is also a reasoner on this subject ... go understand who stole the plot from someone ... but I believe less in Rudel ... :)))))
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 19 July 2013 23: 23
                +3
                It looks more like Rudel. He was a natural adrenaline junkie. Here he is a donkey after the war in Latin America, and what does he do there? One-legged skiing. This is now normal, with our development of technology in prosthetics. And then it was a big bust.
              2. Day 11
                Day 11 19 July 2013 23: 30
                +2
                Most likely he was captured (read from various sources). The question is how was he able to get down?
        3. Bosk
          Bosk 19 July 2013 22: 37
          +1
          Forgot to ascribe ... one IS-3 tank, in his memoirs he described how he destroyed an unknown Russian heavy tank with a flattened turret and a heavy machine gun on the turret at the end of the war ..., I wonder how he didn’t manage to burn it .
        4. cdrt
          cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 33
          0
          According to official figures, it performed 2530 sorties, destroyed 519 tanks, more than 800 vehicles, 150 self-propelled artillery installations, 4 armored trains. Sank the battleship Marat, the leader of Minsk, the destroyer Steregushchiy and about 70 other vessels

          This is the enemy, so the enemy ... request
          1. Bosk
            Bosk 20 July 2013 08: 01
            0
            And his case was not "Stakhanili" ... that is, they promoted? 2530 sorties ... I have a desire to look into his "Labor book", but if this is true, then it turns out that the comrade did not weakly indulge in "wheels" ...
        5. Vadivak
          Vadivak 20 July 2013 21: 09
          +1
          Quote: Den 11
          performed 2530 sorties, destroyed 519 tanks, over 800 vehicles, 150 self-propelled artillery

          Photographs of the recorded damage from aircraft guns, which led to the loss of the tank, modern historians are looking for but cannot find, and there are a lot of photos of damage, they were collected for statistics ... In several German photographs, which are cited as proof of the "effectiveness" of this subject, Soviet tanks smoke ... with white smoke. You are aware of the resulting white smoke from a tank


          his comrades called Munchausen ..





        6. Alex
          Alex 12 February 2014 22: 34
          +1
          Quote: Den 11
          Sank the battleship "Marat"
          Denis, do you seriously think that one plane can sink a battleship? Even an old galosh like "Marat"? Completeness, colleague. Well, defeat, well, let it be a heavy defeat. Well, finish off in the end. And then everything turns out somehow strange.

          As for the 70 ships ... Well, as the janitor Micah said, to whom the mare is the bride, to whom the fishing boat is the victory.
      3. Aleks21
        Aleks21 20 July 2013 11: 16
        0
        Something worries me about the word "destroyed". Well, suppose it fired at the stern, the tank stopped, the oil started smoking. The plane took off, the crew with mats climbed out of the hatches and opened the lid of the leaky "trunk". Short-barreled 37mm tea is not tiger 88 - the tower will not be torn off the shoulder straps. Since everything happens on our territory, they called the repairmen and, with a probability of 50%, went to catch up with the unit by evening. Maybe 300 of his 500 "frags" continued the fight in a few hours?
      4. Vadivak
        Vadivak 20 July 2013 21: 05
        +2
        Quote: Den 11
        maybe exaggerated (slightly),


        Slightly, about 50 really, hit does not mean knocked out

        After his raid, the memories of our tankers


        “The commander of the 178th brigade, Colonel M.A. Gromagin, noticing the appearance of aircraft, ordered the units to rush to the front line of the enemy’s defense. Then all the "Junkers", fearing to defeat their troops, began to bomb the 186th brigade advancing to the left, which, instead of moving forward, stopped in the open. Frantic bombing stunned tank crews, the vast majority of which first entered battle. But although almost 70 aircraft participated in this raid, only two light tanks were damaged in the brigade. ” This is July 1942.

        But plywood could burn here swords for good reason

        for July 9, 1943 (the defensive period of the Battle of Kursk): "... destroyed by enemy fire the breadboard models BT-7-12, KV-8, T-34-22, models of guns -47, cars-12. “Airstrikes on false objects –7, which is why the models of tanks-8 and vehicles-32 were burned.” This is only part of the results of the work of just one camouflage company and in just one day.

        That's the whole strudel
    2. smile
      smile 19 July 2013 21: 10
      0
      Day 11
      Good comment. but nobody .... called him a coward ...
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 19 July 2013 21: 22
        0
        Dan ... well enough, but ...
        One also has one such pretzel ...
        he built everything, everything he rebuilt, then he killed everyone ..
        Menshikov ... Alexander ...
        Do you know this?
        He was awarded all available at that time awards of the Russian Kingdom, Petrov's Fatherland ...
        .
        Nobody denies the qualities of German airplanes ... there were airplanes - give me the way .... I honestly say that.
        If we had started the war with Messers-Friedrich ... we would have ended it with Fredericks, otherwise Emily would have been enough.
        And to hell we would not get into an emergency fuel injection system. Injection system ... ho-ho !!!
        But the Germans ... start a war with the Ishachki - well, I think so, by the end of 1943 they would have pissed it off specifically.
        Moreover, I do not guarantee that the amers in this scenario would not be on the borders of Belarus today.
        ..
        Good...
        that history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.
        We would tilt !!!
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 42
          +2
          Igor, these are all emotions. Dad taught me just the facts. And I want to make you think with your head, analyze, compare. No offense. I am very pleased to see you all trying to refute me (or maybe agree with something) .I'm here not for the sake of mythical stars. On this topic I can reason and justify with documents and photos for a long time. Do not be offended
        2. Igarr
          Igarr 19 July 2013 21: 51
          0
          Yes, Rudel was no cattle ...
          He was not ... even though he was ... a member of the NSDAP.
          in other words, was a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
          Socialist .... with the prefix - nat ...
          Etc.
          and not even this is the main thing - that he was - a national socialist, a Nazi, in other words.
          Now, Ordonez is the same Nazi ... Sarkozy is the same ... Mursi is the same ...
          I repeat ... ".. Yes, Rudel was no cattle ..."
          He was - ordinary - OPTIMIZDOM,
          as Abyrvalg says ...
          ..
          and, accordingly, we have optimized so much that we are now ... breaking spears .. and rattling daggers ..
          Etc.
          Well, for what, Americans .... love to trick ... advertising, tra-la-la ...
          and then to us, to our aces and then they do not reach.
          And here - my poor, heterogeneous Germans ... to whom, for example, I am sympathetic - and such fighters .... wow .. take out everyone.
          Five ... super aces ... and thousands of dead "for so" ....
          I do not believe !
      2. Gamdlislyam
        Gamdlislyam 19 July 2013 21: 49
        +2
        Rudel’s coward was named by his immediate commander in 1941.
        Yes, and, one more nag on the life path of this racist fascist. what
        The battleship "Marat", this is not a karyto. For the sinking of such a not frail combat unit, the reward should have awaited Rudel, and not small. But, something was forgotten about him, they were not even awarded a lousy medal. Moreover, they were suspended from flights. Why's that?
    3. cdrt
      cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 32
      -1
      one of the few German Luftwaffe pilots

      Hmm ... few.
      As they said there.
      The Second World War was fought by the Prussian army, the Imperial Navy and Nazi aircraft laughing

      Well, ridiculous disbelief in the number of flights Rudel. It is possible only from someone who has not encountered the Germans wink They always always really take into account. Such a nation wink
      Of course, they could fake the results (but again, not at times), but the number of sorties is, in principle, excluded.
  3. Civil
    Civil 20 July 2013 10: 13
    0
    By the year 42, the item was outdated, and rarely used, everything on the u-88 was dumped.
  4. Alex
    Alex 12 February 2014 22: 03
    +1
    Quote: vladimirZ
    German ace Hans Ulrich Rudel, who flew the entire war on Ju 87, destroyed more than 500 tanks on such an airplane, according to the Germans.
    It seems that his name was not Hans, but Karl; not Ulrich, but Jerome and not Rudel, but Munchausen. And he flew not on a "laptezhnik", but on a cannonball. Otherwise, everything is correct, only he destroyed not 500 tanks, but 5. What is there, to lie - so for the rich.
  • Flying Dutchman
    Flying Dutchman 19 July 2013 08: 13
    +2
    I read the opinion on the network that it was necessary to focus on the production of the Pe-2 than the Il-2 attack aircraft because of greater combat effectiveness and less losses.
    1. T80UM1
      T80UM1 19 July 2013 08: 49
      +7
      Production was more complicated and expensive; a large number of skilled workers were required. The IL-2 attack aircraft and the Pe-2 bomber have different purposes, the IL-2 directly above the battlefield supports troops and the Pe-2 bombes distant objects. Another thing is that the IL-2 was sent to the bombing of aerodromes and reference units - but this is due to a lack of bomb carriers.
      1. Bigriver
        Bigriver 19 July 2013 10: 01
        +5
        Quote: T80UM1
        ... IL-2 directly above the battlefield is supported by troops and Pe-2 is bombing distant objects. Another thing is that the IL-2 was sent to the bombing of aerodromes and reference units - but this is due to a lack of bomb carriers.

        Ilyushin is a stormtrooper capable of working on heads. "Pawn" - front-line bomber.
        At work, they sometimes overlapped each other. Let's say about steam locomotives, artillery batteries, tank and convoys. But, nevertheless, in general, they differed greatly in terms of working heights and scale of goals. "On foot" more often they worked on squares and from greater heights.
      2. cdrt
        cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 40
        +1
        This is how to compare the Su-24 and Su-25. Different purposes, different optimization.
  • Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 19 July 2013 08: 31
    +2
    The article is good, +, but the feeling remains that it broke off at a glance.
  • Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 19 July 2013 08: 34
    +7
    Thanks, very interesting article. Here are just a photo of FW.190 - modification A with a star-shaped engine, and not D, as it is written. hi
    1. nbw
      nbw 19 July 2013 10: 36
      +1
      Rather, F :)
      1. carbofo
        carbofo 19 July 2013 13: 58
        0
        And the name of the pilot is not written and to which squadron the plane belongs.
        Horror what improbability, it is necessary to rot the author for a lie.

        99% do not care what kind of aircraft is shown in the photo, but it's nice to see the appearance to compare the appearance, and which particular model and the rest, deeply do not care.

        very reminiscent of the typical problem of our forums.
        In the article is an x-ray photo of oral sex, in the comments the dentists srach about implanted pins.
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 19 July 2013 15: 32
          0
          I wonder who read my message from the third line, judging by the minuses no one.
          Why then put a minus if you do not read ??
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 19 July 2013 17: 33
            +2
            No, No .. I read everything.
            And now I'm sitting, the second hour ... and trying ... to eat ..
            what is so killer in the X-ray film "Deep Throat" ... ????
            Etc.
            Etc.
            Probably, you need to roll ischo. And then soon it will hiccup.
            1. carbofo
              carbofo 21 July 2013 12: 16
              0
              The fact that the discussion in the comments is often tangential and often has no direct relation to the essence of the article.
              This is often seen here.
      2. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 6 August 2013 11: 51
        +2
        I looked closely. Still, A smile
  • Gamdlislyam
    Gamdlislyam 19 July 2013 08: 35
    +4
    Only by the end of 1944 the question arose of replacing the Pe-2 with a more advanced Tu-2 dive

    Well, suppose that was not the question. Even in 1944, only 15% of Pe-2 sorties were bombed from a dive.
    Tu-2 until the end of the war produced about 800 units. The front got a lot less. However, the Tu-2, even after the war, was not taught to bomb from a dive.
    So this is a common phrase that is often found in literature, rather a well-established stamp that has nothing to do with reality.
    The article is too short, as if for middle school students. Against its background, the video looks much more attractive.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 19 July 2013 09: 03
      +8
      Quote: Gamdlislyam
      Even in 1944, only 15% of Pe-2 sorties were bombed from a dive.


      It is interesting besides Polbin’s corps who knew how? .

      Quote: Author Stepan Zhilin
      Many historians undertake to compare the Pe-2 and the "lapotnik" Junkers Ju 87


      IMHO Pe-2 is more logical to compare with the 88th, after all, twin-engine with three crew members, with an opportunity dive. Although Pawn, unlike 88, was originally a fighter who became a bomber, and 88 a bomber that became a fighter
      1. Bigriver
        Bigriver 19 July 2013 16: 25
        +2
        Quote: Vadivak

        IMHO Pe-2 is more logical to compare with the 88th, after all, twin-engine with three crew members, with an opportunity dive ..

        The 88th is a different caliber.
        The fate of the "Pawn" is very similar to Bf.110.
        They were simultaneously developed as strategic fighters, and also searched for their niche in an unreleased concept.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 19 July 2013 16: 48
          +2
          Quote: BigRiver
          The fate of the "Pawn" is very similar to Bf.110.


          Well, from Bf.110, unlike the pawn pawn, it didn’t work, although for example Bf.110 E-2 dived steadily, but about Ju-88 I think that it is like a Mosquito a multi-purpose machine and not a clean bomber, for example, a modification of Ju 88P-1 with rak-40
      2. Gamdlislyam
        Gamdlislyam 19 July 2013 22: 10
        +1
        Quote: Vadivak
        It is interesting besides Polbin’s corps who knew how?

        Dear colleague Vadim, in memoirs there are quite a few memoirs of veterans about dive bomb attacks. Another thing is that only experienced pilots used this technique. In addition, dives could only drop bombs from external suspensions and one at a time. And there were not so many goals for which to use this method of bombing.
        In the first year of the war, the Pe-2 was produced without an output automatic machine and brake grids, and therefore could not bomb from a dive.
      3. cdrt
        cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 43
        0
        I think that the Pe-2 double-engine bomber is inferior to the Ju-88, although it is closer, of course, to the Me-110, well ... twin-engine engines are also B-25, A-20, Mosquito.
        It seems like the planes, in principle, are not very different in their years of creation.
        If you compare these - Mosquito is my favorite wink
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 20 July 2013 00: 55
          0
          And what mosquito do you mean? Maybe the German version of the TA-154 winkHe was also called Mosquito.
  • AlNick
    AlNick 19 July 2013 08: 35
    +8
    ... "Only by the end of 1944 the question arose of replacing the Pe-2 with a more advanced Tu-2 dive aircraft" ...

    It seems that on Wikipedia the forum participants can not decide what type of bombers the Tu-2 aircraft can be attributed to: “... also known as ANT-58 and the“ 103 ”aircraft (NATO codification: Bat -“ Bat ”) - a twin-engine Soviet "high-speed day bomber (day high-speed dive bomber / front-line bomber)."

    Initially, during the design, it was supposed to build several versions of the aircraft:
    • long-range bomber - by replacing the plumage, wing consoles and installing an AK-1 course assault rifle;
    • dive bomber - by installing brake grilles;
    • Scout - by installing photo equipment and an additional gas tank in the bomb compartment;
    • training aircraft - by installing a second control in place of the navigator.

    The first Tu-2 aircraft received the 132nd OBAP (separate bomber regiment) and the 12th BAP. In the spring of 1942, a special training unit was formed, in which crews for the Tu-2 were trained.
    The military tests (military operations) of the 132nd Oblacan Aviation Administration, using 29 Tu-2 received from the factory, were conducted on the Kalinin Front from November 5, 1942 to January 1, 1943. In April 1943, the experience of the regiment was summarized in a report that gave a comprehensive assessment to the new bomber, which was rated positively. In total, during the time spent at the front, the regiment dropped 386 bombs on the target with a total mass of 6755 kg, including 25 pieces of FAB-1000, nine FAB-500, 28 FAB-250 and 297 FAB-100. All bombing was carried out from horizontal flight.

    Now about the Tu-2 as a dive.
    The Tu-2 was never used as a dive bomber. Later, aerodynamic brakes were removed from the aircraft and completely abandoned the idea of ​​using it as a dive. During the war, the diving bomber was the Pe-2, and the Tu-2 became a clean medium bomber.

    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/tu2-716.html
    http://www.airpages.ru/ru/tu2bp.shtml
    "Tu-2." / War in the air No. 67./
  • Bigriver
    Bigriver 19 July 2013 09: 44
    +5
    "Already by June 1941, 904 Pe-2 aircraft were produced, most of which, unfortunately, ... Weak defensive armament also aroused criticism: rifle-caliber machine guns were clearly not enough against the new Messerschmitt Bf109G fighterscapable of unpunishedly attacking bombers from a safe distance. Only in 1942 was a pawn ...

    Where does "Gustav" come from in '41? He just started joining the troops in the middle of the 42nd.
    On 41st, it is mainly "Friedrich".
  • Alf
    Alf 19 July 2013 11: 59
    +1
    The PE-2 had only one drawback - it was complicated on take-off and landing. This is a consequence of the alteration of high-altitude fighter into a dive. According to the bomb load, so many experienced pilots lifted 1500 kg.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 19 July 2013 16: 50
      +4
      Quote: Alf
      The PE-2 had only one drawback - it was complicated on take-off and landing


      This is a drawback for unskilled pilots
    2. svp67
      svp67 26 July 2013 21: 28
      0
      Quote: Alf
      The PE-2 had only one drawback - it was complicated on take-off and landing.
      And also the impossibility of flying without descent on one engine, ever increasing, from modification to modification, front centering and much more ... Polikarpov VIT or its development SPB would be better, since it was not a modification, but a specially created aircraft. But the "young and talented" Yakovlev did everything to strangle the competitor.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 13: 02
    +2
    Excellent topic !!! Article plus! (Why didn’t I immediately turn to this article?). Guys, I’m running away on business. We’ll deal with this issue later in the evening.
    1. smile
      smile 19 July 2013 17: 00
      +2
      Day 11
      Just try not to run back! :)))
  • Corsair
    Corsair 19 July 2013 13: 05
    +2
    The depicted Fw190D modification - the “long-nosed Dora” (with an in-line engine instead of a star-shaped one) - was designed to combat “flying fortresses”

    Still, it seems in the photo "normal" Fw190 ...
    Clickable Image:
  • omsbon
    omsbon 19 July 2013 13: 19
    +4
    I read the article and remembered the wonderful movie "Chronicle of a Dive Bomber."
    Glory and eternal memory to our pilots!
    1. smile
      smile 19 July 2013 17: 06
      +4
      omsbon
      Look for a book that combines the memories of the pilots of a female fighter, light bomber and dive regiment. The book is still Soviet, but as I understand it, without any politics and censorship. Scary book. But very interesting and true. Mentioned almost all the pilots., Full of pictures. Sorry, I forgot the name ... but maybe you can find it on the net .... but the movie is good ...
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 48
        +1
        I remember another book was - the memories of our dive. As a child in a pioneer camp I read every year :-)
        such as a dive was called. Started on SB, then Pe-2. According to his memoirs, they dived quite often, although by no means always. I remember I was still surprised - in the pictures Pe-2 was bombed from horizontal flight.
  • smiths xnumx
    smiths xnumx 19 July 2013 13: 20
    +2
    Well, the Germans, before Ju 87, had another Henschel 123 attack aircraft, which was used until the spring of 1944, also used as a dive bomber. Henschel 123 also received baptism of fire during the Spanish Civil War, where it established itself with a very good side. Shortly after adopting the Ju 87A, the aircraft was more used as an attack aircraft, but at the same time becoming the first Luftwaffe attack aircraft. During the Second World War, these attack aircraft were one of the first to inflict airstrikes on Poland. With great success acted on the western front in France, thereby earning a reputation as a reliable aircraft. Also, due to German air superiority during the Great Patriotic War, they attacked Soviet ground forces. General Richthofen in 1943 proposed resuming its production in exchange for the unsuccessful attack aircraft Khsh-129.
    12 units of the Khsh-123 were delivered to China, where he also distinguished himself at the beginning of the 39th during the defeat of the Japanese crossings in the Yangtze River Delta.
    1. tomket
      tomket 19 July 2013 22: 14
      +1
      he is a crutch
  • SIT
    SIT 19 July 2013 14: 17
    +2
    To get from a bombing height of PE2 1km, for example, into a ship is very problematic. Yu87 did this not even with 600m, as the author writes, but much lower. Here's a description of the Stukas attack on the aircraft carrier Illastries in the eastern Mediterranean:
    “It was difficult to calculate exactly how many of them. But the first group consisted of 15, and the second of 20 or 30 aircraft. They walked in a very free and flexible formation, constantly changing their relative position and separating when they fell under the fire of heavy anti-aircraft guns. The dive began at an altitude of about 12000 feet and was free up to 6000-8000 feet, where the aircraft reached the aiming point. The first wave dropped bombs from 1500 feet, the second from 800 feet. Most of the aircraft continued to dive after dropping bombs and out of the dive over the water itself, flying at the level of the flight deck. At least one plane was shot at by an aircraft carrier with a machine gun.
    The Germans attacked the Illastries with three waves, each of which consisted of 2 units of 3 aircraft. They attacked synchronously from different directions. Most aircraft entered from the stern or from both shells, but almost along the diametrical plane. In every second, the ship had to fire at least 6 aircraft. The average diving angle was about 60 degrees, although some aircraft dived at an angle of 80 degrees. Each dive dropped one bomb, approximately 1000-fn. After examining the damage, it became clear that the first bombs had instant fuses to destroy the personnel at the top, and subsequent bombs had to break through the armor. ”
  • maxvet
    maxvet 19 July 2013 14: 49
    +3
    I read the book by A. Smirnov - "Combat work of Soviet and German aviation during the Second World War" - so based on this opus, all our planes shit ... but the pilots are the same, after reading I had a desire to throw the book away, but left ...
    And such articles please
    1. smile
      smile 19 July 2013 17: 08
      +2
      maxvet
      I could not read it ... but you can’t throw it away, you need to know. that enemies bresh ... most importantly, do not forget to wash your hands after such books ... :)))
      1. omsbon
        omsbon 19 July 2013 20: 05
        0
        Quote: smile
        A. Smirnov's book - "Combat work of Soviet and German aviation during the Second World War" -

        Yes, I agree, the book is full of shit, the author is the same.
        1. maxvet
          maxvet 20 July 2013 09: 28
          0
          therefore, he didn’t throw it away and forced himself to finish reading, and the author wanted to ask one question - HOW all the same they were able to win. And of the new authors I respect Drabkin
  • tomket
    tomket 19 July 2013 16: 46
    +6
    It was thought that Chikatilo would not be able to call his tongue a great war, although he cut a lot of other professors to the people. military, in my opinion there is too much blood on it, and it is the civilian population. Many people began to doubt the effectiveness of "Laptezhnik" already in 40, despite the fact that there were cases when a laptezhnik knocked down Spitfire, yet no one in their right mind tried to wishful thinking. This plane was saved from inevitable destruction only by the crash of 41g. What happens when a group of Junkers stumbles upon well-trained pilots showed the battle of Horovets on the Kursk Bulge. The main drawback of the pawn was the small section of the fuselage, and, accordingly, the low bomb load and the small caliber of the bombs, in fact, the ideal front-line bomber is Mitchell or Boston, well, or the Marauder without his congenital drawbacks like high landing speed and huge load on the wing. In general, they fought with what was, and not on what we would like, applies to us and the Germans.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 51
      0
      Ideal - this is probably the A-26 Insider wink
      A Marauder without flaws - it would be another completely airplane wink
  • Bosk
    Bosk 19 July 2013 19: 17
    +2
    It is a pity that the first TU-2 did not go into series ... he was in the 41st and overtook the Messers.
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 19 July 2013 21: 57
      +5
      Quote: Bosk
      It is a pity that the first TU-2 did not go into series ... he was in the 41st and overtook the Messers.

      Engines of Solovyov's design (water-cooled) did not go into series, it was necessary to install from Shvetsov (air vents), which had greater air resistance, less power. Also in the experimental model, to improve aerodynamics, the navigator was seated behind the pilot, which the military did not accept, it was necessary to "expand" the fuselage.
      And the experimental Tu-2 himself worked as a "leader" on the flights of aircraft from Alaska to Siberia. On the nose of the plane it was written "You won't get away", on the fuselage, in the stern - "You won't catch up".
      1. Bosk
        Bosk 19 July 2013 22: 49
        +3
        In October 1941, a decree was issued to discontinue the production of AM-37, which would concentrate the production of AM-38 for IL-2, for the same reason they completed the release of MIG-3. Now a lot can be discussed about the correctness of this step ... it is a pity that they did not release at least a small (at least a hundred) military series ...
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 19 July 2013 23: 01
          +5
          Quote: Bosk
          You can discuss the correctness of this step ... it’s a pity that they did not release

          As far as I understand, the issue of "unification" of Mikulin's engines was so urgent (in order to increase the produced number) at that time that, probably, there was no time for "grace". Remember: ",,, IL-2 aircraft are needed by the front like air, like bread ...".
          hi
          1. Bosk
            Bosk 20 July 2013 07: 53
            0
            The front really needed IL-2 ... the sad thing was that under the AM-37 engine at that moment, many designers created their pretty good cars.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 19: 56
    +2
    So, guys, let's figure it out! In principle, here the man wrote correctly - the dive angle reached about 80 degrees, although the pilot could well do his job. Production began from the A-1 series (about 200 cars), but you yourself understand on this series of engines was rather weak (680 mares). But he showed himself only from the very best side (Spain) and it was decided to continue work on this airplane further. In the next post we will move on to series "B"
    1. smile
      smile 19 July 2013 21: 18
      +2
      Day 11
      Denis, perhaps I will express a general opinion ... but .... if you know something, tell me not to have to pull this knowledge out of you .... if you don’t want to, don’t tell me .... please, publish your opinion. Personally, it’s interesting to me. Here! :))))
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 28
        +2
        Let's move on to the "B" series. It differed from A by a more powerful engine (1200 mares) and a wide-bladed constant-pitch propeller. The speed began to reach 550 km / h. He took 500 kg of bombs. This one had already participated in the Polish and French companies. Series A was transferred in uchebku. Let's go to series "C"?
        1. smile
          smile 19 July 2013 22: 24
          +2
          Day 11
          The plane was really strong ... Why was it modified (except for the new engine) How many bombs and what caliber the "B" could use from a dive, target designation method, raid organization - distribution of antiaircraft suppression groups with a strike group, their effectiveness. orientation in space, for example, over water. at night ... all this is in the development of time ... finally it's good if in comparison with ours ... yes. Still interesting is the loss of bastards for the months of the war, interesting. when they were beaten. as vid6))) ... I wonder how different modifications were shown in a collision with fighters from different countries ... I am especially interested in combat use ..... Den ... what the hell :)))) ... you or not pull the cat by the tail ... :)))) or let him know that he is already stinking .... until you post something significant, they will not argue with you ... if you do not post anything, they will pass and remember .. . here.

          Well. I voiced the appetites of some members of the forum .... if not laziness, lay out what you have ... we are waiting ....
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 19 July 2013 22: 46
            +3
            On points-500 kg. Bomb. Overcoming air defense is quite surmountable. If there are escort fighters and they do not chase a personal account and twist turns (respected VAF will say what it's called (forgot) this technique) to level the speed of the fighter with a bomber --- ok. To the battle formation --- photo. I just broke up and you want everything at once! Wrong it
            1. smile
              smile 19 July 2013 23: 16
              +2
              Day 11
              No, well, it's not fair .... three of your lines are read quickly enough ... :))) and of course I want everything at once :)))) No, Dan, you know a lot, but at least kill, you don’t know how sharing my knowledge ... this is a jamb ... here ... :))) I understand you, of course, I’m not writing articles myself, and not only because I don’t have time, I don’t own an epistolary gift .... links are not always I give numbers to look for laziness ... but, damn it, I at least give a general picture of my opinion in a long comment ... and you? ... Or are you busy there? If busy, sorry ....
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 19 July 2013 23: 34
                +2
                I try to be here and to give family time too. The son is all dad-dad (2,5 years).
  • Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 21: 31
    0
    Here's another photo (supposedly weak glider)
    1. tomket
      tomket 19 July 2013 22: 05
      +4
      during the battle for England, there was a case when a damaged Laptezhnik dropped his bast shoes, i.e. wheels, he had such an option, a photo was taken in flight from a neighboring side, and then upon returning the photo they retouched and started a bike about the glider’s unprecedented strength, supposedly When leaving the peak, the Laptechnik hooked the surface of the water, the chassis was torn off, and he flew on. and the cases with holes in the plane were by no means unique, even our linen donkeys and Yakovlev with similar holes rotated. By the way, by definition a glider should be strengthened.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 19 July 2013 22: 21
        +3
        You are absolutely right - they had such an opportunity to drop bast shoes during an emergency landing
  • tomket
    tomket 19 July 2013 22: 12
    +3
    In general, the concept of a single-engine light bomber-dive bomber quickly came to naught in Europe, starting from the Polish Karas and ending with all sorts of su-2 and u-87. The Americans didn’t even try to drag numerous Heldivers and Dontles to Europe. If the specifics of the Pacific Ocean did not leave a choice how to use such equipment, because the deck size is limited and the b-25 will not take off from it every time, then in Europe they decided to dispense with pseudo-close bombers, Thunderbolts and Typhoons, the benefit of the bombing load was about the same, and the chances of survival were no greater.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 20 July 2013 00: 57
      0
      100500
      But neither Thunderbolt nor Typhoon could dive at 90 degrees with a late exit from the dive, after all, the dive design is quite specific
  • Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 22: 26
    +2
    Can we move on to the Fw-190? Also interesting. What do you think?
  • Day 11
    Day 11 19 July 2013 23: 11
    0
    To summarize the results of the Ju-87. During the hostilities, and especially on the Eastern Front, the importance of assault aviation increased more and more. What can we say about the initial period of the war - the most rapid advance of the mechanized units was provided by the assault aviation. Sometimes the successful actions of Ju- 87 had a significant impact on the entire course of hostilities in a particular sector of the Eastern Front. This, for example, happened after the pilots of III./StG3, during October 6, 1943, sank three warships of the Black Sea Fleet, the leader "Kharkov" and the destroyers "Capable" and "Merciless." For almost a year, until September 9, 1944, there were hostilities on the Black Sea, but all the large ships of the Black Sea Fleet, including the battleship, cruisers and destroyers, from that ill-fated day defended their bases on the Caucasian coast and did not fire a single shot at the enemy. After the new commander (September 43rd) of the assault aviation was appointed, the former commander of StG2, Oberst Lieutenant Ernst Kupfer the role of the Ju-87 has only grown
  • REZMovec
    REZMovec 20 July 2013 00: 00
    +2
    Here, somehow, 550 km / h top speed on modification "B" are in doubt. The maximum permissible PICKING speed at the "B" -shka, yes, up to 600 km / h. The maximum speed in horizontal flight did not reach 400 - 383, if memory serves.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 20 July 2013 00: 15
      +1
      You are mistaken, dear, the "B" -shka was accelerated to this speed (due to the relatively small bomb load). We will skip the "C" option (palubnik). On the "D" series, the engine was forced even more (up to 1400 mares), but the bomb load was also increased (up to 1800kg.) - as a result, lost in speed (approximately up to what you say)
      1. REZMovec
        REZMovec 20 July 2013 17: 00
        +2
        Den 11!
        Here, like, you are here on the forum a big specialist in aviation, BUT! Do not rave - 550 km / h in horizontal flight, even without a bomb load - that's too much !!! It’s not at all a small plane, with terrible aerodynamics, albeit with an engine of 1400 hp, with an indelible landing gear ... Do not tell!
        Give a link to this speed - I could not find ...
        Sincerely.
        1. tomket
          tomket 21 July 2013 22: 08
          0
          open the directory and read, Maximum speed on modification D 408 km / h, modification G 357 km / h. Maximum speed in diving 600 km / h. that even on 41 is already completely insufficient, otherwise they would be changed urgently to fokkers ????
        2. Day 11
          Day 11 22 July 2013 20: 35
          0
          Dear friends, I was busy and did not appear on the site. Now I read your "disbelief" about speed. So, infa is taken from the fundamental book on the Luftwaffe: "Luftwaffe Combat Aircraft" edited by Dzvid Donald. An excellent book. Strictly speaking, I began to get carried away with it. . If you see where (although it is unlikely) I advise you to take it without hesitation. Do you have a scan? (Although this is problematic, the camera down), take my word for it. Best regards Den 11 (Denis). With persistence, I will!
          1. REZMovec
            REZMovec 25 July 2013 00: 20
            0
            Dear Den11! Found and read the book you recommended. If a phrase like: "... could reach speeds of 550 km / h ..." is authoritative for you, then I am deeply disappointed. Yes, it could reach 600 km / h IN PICKING, but not the maximum level flight speed. Read more authoritative publications, where CLEAR performance characteristics are given, and not sweeping phrases. You can't argue against aerodynamics and physics ...
  • Day 11
    Day 11 20 July 2013 00: 05
    +1
    Are you aware of the history of that Foka-attack aircraft that was found near St. Petersburg in the early 90s? The story is this: pilot Feltwebel Paul Raz flew together with his wingman on Fw190A-5 / U3 WNr.1227, "White A" from 4 ./JG 54. In the process of carrying out a combat mission, they attacked a Soviet armored train. When leaving the attack, Paul was wounded and, due to a large blood loss, sat down for an emergency. He got out of the cab, leaned against a pine tree and ... And with the removal of this device, a detective! Interesting?
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 20 July 2013 05: 22
      0
      Isn't this one?
      http://topwar.ru/27237-rekonstrukciya-samoleta-fw190a-5.html
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 20 July 2013 07: 03
        0
        Sure, he's the most. Why did I skip this article?
  • sso-xnumx
    sso-xnumx 20 July 2013 20: 41
    0
    Unfortunately, all the remarks came down to the transition to the individual.
    After all, Petlyakov could bring his car to mind, but unfortunately died in a plane crash either in late 1942, or in early 1943, (I don’t remember exactly now) when he flew to Perm to a new destination. Modification of the Pe-2 - Pe-3 - high-altitude reconnaissance with photo equipment, and the long-range bomber Pe-8
    In my opinion, in general, a masterpiece of our aviation industry at that time, it was a pity there were few of them and everything was in a separate airport.
    1. Bosk
      Bosk 21 July 2013 01: 28
      0
      The pawn was brought up throughout the war, for example, the PE-2A and in the spring of 44th showed a speed of 656km per hour, an army series was released. The introduction of new machines was hindered by the understandable reluctance or inability to break the given release of aircraft. during the war there were no discounts.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 22 July 2013 19: 21
    -2
    Ju-87 did not need any fighter cover, because it was operating from the airfields of the jump and the fighters simply did not have time to react to it. In cases of long flights and interceptions by fighters, the casualties were really terrible. Therefore, in the West. forint they did not fly, especially if through the English Channel. They tried, but immediately stopped.

    FW-190, yes, bombed into the white light, like a pretty penny. Well, about the Pe-2 in the words of the pilots: "To fly on a Pe-2, it's like kissing a tiger in the * opu. It's dangerous and no pleasure."
  • svp67
    svp67 26 July 2013 21: 30
    +1
    The article is interesting, but it is not entirely clear why the author did not compare the "pawn", or at least Tu2 with Yu88. Here the comparison would be fairer. And why is our Ar2 forgotten