Military Review

Was the Red Army able to fight?

423
Was the Red Army able to fight?



An indispensable “black myth” about the Great Patriotic War, became the myth about the “great losses” of the Red Army, about the “crushing of the corpses” of the enemy. So, another A. I. Solzhenitsyn launched into circulation a number in 44 million people. At present, B.V. Sokolov has named the total losses of the Soviet Union in 1939 — 1945. in 43 million 448 thousand people, and the loss of the Red Army in 1941-1945 years - 26,4 million people (of which 4 million died in captivity). Although, according to the estimates of Academician G. Osipov, during the war years in the USSR, 34,5 million people were mobilized (taking into account pre-war soldiers), of whom about 27 million people were direct participants in the war. That is, the data Sokolov falsification. Sokolov’s calculations were accepted by a number of media outlets and by some authors as true, as they were quoted in the NTV film Victory. One for all ”, writer Viktor Astafyev, I.V. Bestuzhev-Lada in the book“ Russia on the Eve of the 21st Century ”and others.

The essence of the myth is quite well voiced in the book "Russia on the Eve of the XXI Century" (1997 year) Igor Bestuzhev-Lada: "... Soviet soldiers literally blocked Moscow with their bodies, and then lined the road to Berlin: nine fell dead, but the tenth killed the same enemy soldier ... ". So in the minds of people created a loss ratio: 1: 10.

But, already in 1993, the book “The neck of secrecy was filmed: Loss of the Armed Forces of the USSR in wars, hostilities and conflicts” was published. A group of authors led by Colonel-General G. F, Krivosheev, studied archival materials for several years with information about casualties. As a result, they made an important conclusion: contrary to the generally accepted opinion, the losses of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht are approximately comparable. The great general losses of the USSR in people are caused by the deliberate destruction by the Germans of our prisoners of war and the civilian population.

It is clear that the figures mentioned in this work are not final, they will be refined. But this is the first work that relied not on its own fantasies, but on archival documents.



Thus, according to Krivosheev’s work, during the years of the Great Patriotic War (including the war with Japan in 1945), total irretrievable losses (killed, missing, captured and not returned, died from injuries. Diseases, accidents) - 8 million 668 thousand 400 people. This includes border and internal troops. Armed forces lost - 8 million. 509 thousand. 300 people, internal troops - 97 thousand. 700 people, border guards and state security organs - 61 you. 400 people.

The total losses, including those taken prisoner - 11 million. 444,1 thousand people. Approximately another 500 thousand people are allocated in a separate category - the Germans captured during the initial period of the war, military service, but who have not yet been enlisted in the troops. Of these total losses - 1 million, 836 thousand returned from captivity alive, another 973 thousands were again called up in the liberated territories: of these, 318770 were captured and were released by the Germans from the camps - mostly natives of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus (apparently, propaganda and political motives, no more prisoners were released), 620930 were considered missing.

The majority of USSR losses are civilians, total losses are 26,6 million. Thus, according to CPG data from 1946, the Germans physically exterminated civilians: in the RSFSR - 706 thousand people, in the Ukrainian SSR - 3256,2 thousand people, in the Belarusian SSR - 1547 thousand people, in the Lithuanian SSR - 437,5 thousand people, in Latvian SSR - 313,8 thousand people, in the Estonian SSR - 61,3 thousand people, in the Moldavian SSR - 61 thousand people, in the Karelian-Finnish SSR - 8 thousand people. Very large population losses were in the frontal zone.

German losses, according to Soviet data, amounted to 7,1 million people killed. That quite accurately corresponds to the surrendered ones that Hitler voiced two months before his death - he announced that the Reich had lost 12,5 million dead and wounded, half of which dead.

That is, if we take purely military losses, the ratio will be approximately equal (some authors cite the figure 1: 1,3). If the USSR pursued a policy of “racial purity”, like the Third Reich in the occupied territories of Germany and its allies, then it could have equated the number of dead Soviet citizens and Reich citizens with allies. But, the USSR did not destroy prisoners of war, civilians.



Sources of:
Krivosheev GF Some new data on the analysis of forces and losses on the Soviet-German front.
Russia and the USSR in the wars of the 20th century: Statistical research. M., 2001.
Sokolov B. V. World War II: Facts and Versions. - M .: AST-PRESS BOOK, 2005.
http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2002/059/analit01.php
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Потери_в_Великой_Отечественной_войне
http://www.battlefield.ru/ru/articles/394-germany-ussr-losses.html
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  1. Sibiryak
    Sibiryak 4 May 2013 08: 06
    36
    Was the Red Army able to fight?

    If she could not, then there would be no victory! And all the talk about hatred from the evil one!
    1. Mikhado
      Mikhado 4 May 2013 08: 33
      51
      Quote: Sibiryak
      Was the Red Army able to fight?

      If she could not, then there would be no victory! And all the talk about hatred from the evil one!

      I must say frankly, without lying - at first a lot of things did not work out, we received a painfully strong blow, and there were enough shortcomings that compensated for the heroism of people. But - they learned from their enemies, the best army of the world of that period - and by the 43rd year they had become equal, and by the 44th year they had exceeded their skills!
      It’s not a shame to not know something and not to be able to, a shame not to want to learn - and the might of the Soviet Army was forged in the crucible of a terrible war and bitter defeats - this can and should be proud of.
      1. Sibiryak
        Sibiryak 4 May 2013 08: 52
        13 th
        Quote: Mikhado
        But - they learned from their enemies, the best army of the world of that period - and by the 43rd year they had become equal, and by the 44th year they had exceeded their skills!

        At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?
        1. svp67
          svp67 4 May 2013 09: 05
          14
          Quote: Sibiryak
          At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?
          That she knew how to win ... And we learned this.
          1. Arberes
            Arberes 4 May 2013 10: 28
            15
            Quote: svp67
            And we learned this.

            We must take into account another important nuance of this war.
            Fascist Germany captured half EUROPE almost without a fight! Poland resisted 2 weeks and France about the same! The rest were enslaved without a fight.
            But OUR RED ARMY had to clean this trash when many areas and cities of EUROPE were serious. deep-layered fortified areas and strong points!
            1. svp67
              svp67 4 May 2013 10: 41
              -3
              Quote: Arberes
              Fascist Germany captured half EUROPE almost without a fight! Poland resisted 2 weeks and France about the same! The rest were enslaved without a fight.
              You Dear, just misunderstand the theory of blitzkrieg. Not one country from 1939 to 1941 year, did not raise her hands up only at the sight of German soldiers at their borders - everyone tried to resist ...
              1. Arberes
                Arberes 4 May 2013 10: 59
                14
                Quote: svp67
                You Dear, just misunderstand the theory of blitzkrieg. Not one country from 1939 to 1941 year, did not raise her hands up only at the sight of German soldiers at their borders - everyone tried to resist ...

                Once again, good morning to you hi
                Well, why do I misunderstand?
                Some countries were swallowed with lightning speed, some did not mind at all (Anschluss with Austria), but the "resistance" of the rest is more like shooting kids from slingshots at tanks?
                By the way, some countries were allies of the Third Reich (Bulgaria, Romania, Finland).
                Very active resistance was in the Balkans!
                But the RED ARMY did not fight there!

                When the green lieutenant
                He raised the TT above his head
                The Soviet infantry went
                In your last fierce battle


                What a cynical merciless
                Will have to make an exchange
                Leave life on this field
                So that death is not missed in return!
              2. Sibiryak
                Sibiryak 4 May 2013 12: 04
                +4
                Quote: svp67
                You Dear, just misunderstand the theory of blitzkrieg.

                But what to understand is the achievement of military superiority in the short term by using various factors, such as surprise. And I think that your appan Arberes right, in Europe, seriously, no one fought with Germany, so there was a show with a subsequent conspiracy against the USSR.
                Quote: svp67
                Not one country from 1939 to 1941 year, did not raise her hands up only at the sight of German soldiers at their borders - everyone tried to resist ...

                For example Czechoslovakia, if not mistaken!
                1. svp67
                  svp67 5 May 2013 00: 00
                  0
                  Quote: Sibiryak
                  For example Czechoslovakia, if not mistaken!

                  And do not remind me, in what period of time from 1939 to 1941 did this unfortunate event happen with Czechoslovakia?
                  1. Sibiryak
                    Sibiryak 5 May 2013 18: 13
                    +2
                    Quote: svp67
                    And do not remind me, in what period of time from 1939 to 1941 did this unfortunate event happen with Czechoslovakia?

                    March 1939! Name the date, too, or try to press the keys ?!
              3. andron352
                andron352 4 May 2013 12: 55
                +6
                Danes surrendered only at the sight of a German soldier
                1. svp67
                  svp67 5 May 2013 00: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: andron352
                  Danes surrendered only at the sight of a German soldier

                  There is certainly some truth here, but it is also worth considering:
                  The psychological preparation did not go unnoticed: on April 5, the German envoy to Oslo invited prominent Norwegians, including members of the government, to a demonstration of a documentary film about the capture of Poland. The last shots were devoted to the barbaric bombing of Warsaw. The inscription read: "For this they can thank their English and French friends." The guests dispersed in deep gloom. At the dawn of April 9, the plan to capture Denmark and Norway began to be implemented. German ships suddenly entered the ports of these countries, and planes with airborne troops began to land at airfields. In Copenhagen, where no one was waiting for the attack, German soldiers already in the very first hour after the invasion hosted the city without hindrance. They disarmed the Danish soldiers, seized and arrested the chief of the general staff and the minister of the interior, as well as the English trade attache, who had turned up arm in arm on the street. A “memorandum” was presented to the Danish government: to issue a surrender order. One hour was given for reflection. The German envoy was waiting at the royal palace with a clock in his hands. On 6.30 in the morning the government surrendered.

                  Agree not a bad blitzkrieg-style operation ...
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 5 May 2013 16: 13
                    -2
                    Quote: svp67
                    Agree not a bad blitzkrieg-style operation ...

                    There was no blitzkrieg in Poland yet. In Poland there was a banal exchange, given the superiority of the Wehrmacht in quantity and quality, this exchange was not in favor of the Polish army.
                  2. Azzzwer
                    Azzzwer 5 May 2013 23: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: svp67
                    A “memorandum” was presented to the Danish government: to issue a surrender order. One hour was given for reflection. The German envoy was waiting at the royal palace with a clock in his hands.
                    what can I say? Sorry for the expression - suckers!
                  3. Alex
                    Alex 28 August 2013 20: 32
                    +1
                    And someone turns their language not only to look for excuses, but also to call all THIS resistance ??? It was not for nothing that after such "victories" the whole OKW's head began to spin, as after a portion of shirki. They seem to have forgotten that a hangover and withdrawal are more serious than a gout attack.
              4. antidote
                antidote 5 May 2013 16: 13
                +2
                Only Belgium and the Netherlands simply surrendered without fighting. And Austria and Czechoslovakia.
                And Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary simply themselves imposed themselves into allies
              5. Alex
                Alex 28 August 2013 20: 27
                +1
                Not one country from 1939 to 1941 year, did not raise her hands up only at the sight of German soldiers at their borders - everyone tried to resist ...

                Denmark. Not only did she surrender in one day with a dozen shots at the border, but her king Christian X didn’t lick too ... the Wehrmacht major general Kurt Chimera, only because the general himself considered it superfluous. Well, the phrase “General, can I tell you something like an old soldier? .. You Germans have again done the incredible. Admittedly, it was done great! ” generally speaks for itself!

                So do not, the Red Army knew how to fight! And failures - show an army that did not know defeats. Everyone has a take-off, a glorious hour, a sunset; there is good luck, there are defeats.
            2. GOOD
              GOOD 5 May 2013 01: 06
              12
              "... On the red brick wall of the castle it was written in even Gothic letters:" The weak Russian fortress of Sevastopol held out for 250 days against the invincible German army. Konigsberg, the best fortress in Europe, will never be taken! ".. it was taken on the 4th day ..
              1. xan
                xan 6 May 2013 00: 44
                +2
                Quote: HOFF
                “The weak Russian fortress of Sevastopol lasted 250 days against the invincible German army. Koenigsberg, the best fortress in Europe will never be taken! ”.. it was taken on the 4th day ..

                Sevastopol was defended by the 41-year-old army, where the main factor was the character and the will to resist. And Koenigsberg was taken by the army for 44 years, and skill was added to the character there.
                If the USSR in 41 g had an army of 44 g, the war would not have begun in any case, the Germans were not sick. This metamorphosis is the main component in that war
                1. Cheloveck
                  Cheloveck 6 May 2013 02: 20
                  +5
                  Quote: xan
                  If the USSR in 41 g had an army of 44 g, the war would not have begun in any case, the Germans were not sick.

                  In fairness, I must say that the Germans, after all, are sick ...
                  They had one sober man - Bismarck - who warned that fighting with Russians is more expensive under any initial conditions, but they didn’t heed ..., for which they again received ...
            3. 77bor1973
              77bor1973 5 May 2013 08: 12
              +3
              At the same time, the Red Army managed to develop the highest rate of offensive, somewhere around 40-50 km per day — the Vistula-Oder operation.
          2. GOOD
            GOOD 5 May 2013 00: 41
            +4
            and learned ... although it was precisely to fight, Unfortunately, we never forgot how ... time was not enough for peace
            a life...
          3. Alex
            Alex 28 August 2013 20: 06
            +2
            Quote: Sibiryak
            At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?

            The fact that it withstood the blow that no country and the army of the world could stand. In the fact that each time she found the strength to be reborn from the ashes. The fact that every soldier defended every meter of his land, like the last. The fact that we won.

            But (from memory) a quote from the book by B. Wintser "A Soldier of Three Armies" (the author served in the Wehrmacht in 1941 in Ukraine, went to the rear guard, until the end of autumn he did not participate in serious battles, therefore the memories are not among the most rated) :
            "The column was walking along a country road. On the right and left were endless fields. Most of the bread was cleared, but it was in stacks. Suddenly, one of them hit a machine gun. Two people in the head of the column fell dead. I barely had time to fall to the ground. , as there was a heartbreaking squeal of pierced metal: the line passed through our car.
            ... Several motorcyclists, having bypassed the haystack, dismounted and began to surround the shooter. From behind my hiding place, I saw the Red Army man jump up and, firing back on the run, zigzags to the edge of the field and disappeared into the copse. No one dared to chase one man, but hiding in the thickets and armed with a machine gun, and we approached his position. There was a pile of spent cartridges and a duffel bag with simple soldiers' belongings and half a loaf of bread. I caught myself thinking that it would not be easy to defeat a country in which a soldier, fleeing from pursuit, throws a bag, not a machine gun. "


            Something like that.
        2. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 4 May 2013 09: 11
          +7
          Quote: Sibiryak
          At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?

          In military strategy and tactics, command and control, personnel training.
          1. Sibiryak
            Sibiryak 4 May 2013 12: 37
            -1
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            In military strategy and tactics, command and control, personnel training.

            To offer something new and to be better are two different things! From your statement, I agree only with the fact that in the German army a new tactic of attacking with armored formations was applied in practice and for the purpose of effective command and control of troops they began to widely use radio stations. I think you just came up with the rest, the training of personnel in the Red Army at the beginning of the war was not bad, even the Germans confirm it, everything depended on the command staff.
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 5 May 2013 12: 24
              +1
              Quote: Mikhado
              But - they learned from their enemies, the best army of the world of that period - and by the 43rd year they had become equal, and by the 44th year they had exceeded their skills!

              Quote: Sibiryak
              At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?

              Quote: Sibiryak
              I think you just came up with the rest, the training of personnel in the Red Army at the beginning of the war was not bad, even the Germans confirm it, everything depended on the command staff.

              Dear Siberian, we are looking at the year 1943-1944. Operation "Uranus", Operation "Bagration", the Leningrad-Novgorod offensive. I have nothing to invent. I read the comments, I wrote about the Red Army, your comment At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at? I thought that you are talking about the Red Army, there was some misunderstanding.
        3. Rink
          Rink 4 May 2013 10: 36
          18
          Quote: Sibiryak
          Quote: Mikhado
          But - they learned from their enemies, the best army of the world of that period - and by the 43rd year they had become equal, and by the 44th year they had exceeded their skills!

          At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?

          American generals predicted that the Kwantung Army would last against the Soviet Army for at least 18 months. And when through week (!!!) after the outbreak of hostilities, the Japanese army simply ceased to exist, America panicked. That is why they launched atomic strikes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which had no military expediency. The real purpose of this "punitive action" is to demonstrate to Stalin his capabilities, intimidation in case the "Soviets" decide not to stop at defeating Germany and Japan.

          However, if you do not know history, and do not believe my words, look on the net for the statements of the same Churchill, Roosevelt, Mellentin about the Soviet Army of the sample of the 45th year - are they authority for you, probably?
          1. Volkhov
            Volkhov 4 May 2013 12: 01
            -2
            Quote: Skating rink
            However, if you do not know the story,

            Hiroshima was bombed on August 6, Nagasaki 9, the advance of the SA began on August 9.
            This is not a fright before the event, but a distraction. The allies fought in a systematic manner and before the large operations of the spacecraft (Stalingrad, Kursk), an allied forces strike, distracting the aircraft and part of the enemy’s troops.
            1. nnz226
              nnz226 4 May 2013 22: 44
              12
              And what kind of "diversionary strike of the allies" happened on August 23, 1942 ??? This is the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad. That Montgomery was running away from Rommel ??? Or during the Battle of Kursk, what happened from 5 to 19 July 1943 ??? The fact that in August (and not in July at the height of the fighting) the allies farted when they landed in Sicily? so already by this time the Germans were being driven by a nasty broom on both faces of the Kursk Bulge ... Especially the enti soyuz women, who, according to one literary hero, “had to be drowned in a barrel of water as a child,” in January 1945, were especially distinguished. They fought so systematically in the Ardennes that Churchill wrote boiling water on his thighs in an effort to find out "is the Red Army planning a major offensive in any sector of the front in the near future?" And I had to start the Vistula-Oder operation 2 weeks earlier, underprepared. Surely it cost the extra lives of our fighters, although I would have preferred the lost extra lives of the Anglo-Saxons.
            2. Alex
              Alex 28 August 2013 20: 42
              +2
              Quote: Volkhov
              The allies fought in a systematic manner and before the large operations of the spacecraft (Stalingrad, Kursk), an allied forces strike, distracting the aircraft and part of the enemy’s troops.


              Avona-how! Trouble! - as Dr. Bykov said. In the sense of mental ability.
          2. Sibiryak
            Sibiryak 4 May 2013 12: 26
            0
            Quote: Skating rink
            However, if you do not know the story, and do not believe my words

            If you are contacting me, then I can’t understand something about the essence of your message? But the essence of my question was as follows - what was the better army of Germany at that time compared with the aria of the USSR! request
            1. avt
              avt 4 May 2013 13: 23
              +7
              Quote: Sibiryak
              But the essence of my question was as follows - what was the better army of Germany at that time compared with the aria of the USSR! request

              The Germans had a deployed wartime army, well-equipped, armed and trained, and went through a series of victorious campaigns with by no means weak opponents. The Red Army was in the process of deploying into a multimillion-strong and new structure, naturally there were not enough trained personnel, both ordinary and officers. To the same rearmament to new models, it also required time for training on new equipment. Objectively, the starting positions were different, and not in our favor. This is, in short. Article +, once again raising the topic is not harmful, and even on Victory Day.
              1. Sibiryak
                Sibiryak 4 May 2013 13: 32
                0
                Quote: avt
                Objectively, the starting positions were different, and not in our favor.

                I agree, but this is not evidence that the German army was the best for that period of time, I personally think so!
              2. Alex
                Alex 28 August 2013 22: 20
                +2
                The Germans had a deployed army of wartime ... and went through a series of victorious campaigns with by no means weak opponents.
                Do not make me laugh. Are Poland and Denmark strong opponents ?! Is it Norway with its fifth column - a worthy adversary ?! This is France, decomposed so thoroughly and imperceptibly that it surprised both Hitler and Stalin, and Churchill (he, as always, hoped again to rage the heat with other people's hands) ?!

                And the Japanese army, which, according to some, the Americans were so afraid of even in 1945 that they even dropped the atomic bomb to save the lives of their soldiers, is it not an enemy for you? And the Winter War, in which the Wehrmacht would have frozen a year earlier, is also a game of snowballs?

                I’m wondering if you’ve settled your people ... for money or just like that, at the behest of the soul?

                PS Just in case, I'm not a patriot, although I love kvass. And beer, too, even Bavarian.
            2. segamegament
              segamegament 4 May 2013 17: 47
              +4
              1. Organization (in particular, the branches of the armed forces - aviation, infantry, and mechanized units) 2. Greater radio coverage. 3. Non-stereotyped actions and decision-making by middle and lower command staff ... etc. BUT this is until 1942. Until the reins in the Red Army were not released)))
              1. antidote
                antidote 5 May 2013 16: 20
                +4
                And also worked out cooperation between the military branches (for example, aviation with ground forces). It was really the best army, and the honor and praise of the Red Army, headed by the Supreme, that it was able to win the Victory in it!
            3. воронов
              воронов 5 May 2013 20: 45
              0
              Quote: Sibiryak
              what was better the army of Germany for that period in comparison with the aria of the USSR

              Especially nothing, in some respects even it was inferior to our army. Only the Germans had more combat experience, by June 22, 1941. they still conquered Europe, and we fought before the Second World War on Khalkin-Gol and in the Finnish one, but this is not enough to gain combat experience, the area of ​​Lake Khasan cannot be compared, there was a border conflict, the participation of our "volunteers" in the civil war in Spain I also do not take into account.
        4. smile
          smile 4 May 2013 14: 55
          10
          Sibiryak
          Well, the fact that the Wehrmacht by the age of 40-41 became the strongest army in the world, resembling crushing the armed forces of the Great Powers of Europe is difficult to dispute ... well, is it controversial?
          By the way, regarding Solzhenitsyn ... this one ... explaining the essence of his method, which he used when writing his Gulag, did not hesitate to say the following: Where scientific research would require one hundred facts, two hundred - and I have two! Three! And between them there is an abyss, a breakthrough. And this bridge, into which another 198 facts can be laid - we make an artistic image, a story, sometimes a proverb "... such a" jumper "has sought out on our head ... so he picks out from of an obscene place - either 44 million of our fighters, then 66 million whom the evil Stalin killed ... and ate ... one word - a speaking surname - from the word "lie" ...
          1. Sibiryak
            Sibiryak 4 May 2013 15: 13
            +5
            Quote: smile
            By the way, about Solzhenitsin ...

            Dear Vladimir, you could not mention this pretzel, I don’t take it seriously at all!
            1. smile
              smile 4 May 2013 15: 36
              +4
              Sibiryak
              Sorry for the pretzel, I didn’t bring him here about your post - it’s just mentioned in the article, and I couldn’t help spit over my left shoulder, in his direction ... :)))
            2. Piran
              Piran 5 May 2013 12: 24
              -3
              Nevertheless, many in their home libraries have Solzhenitsyn's books, and no one is going to throw them into the trash especially, and even give them to the libraries too. at least my friends and acquaintances have such a picture ...
              1. Alex
                Alex 28 August 2013 22: 43
                +2
                But I did not even bend for waste paper in perestroika. A renegade is always a renegade, no matter what the costume is.
          2. Azzzwer
            Azzzwer 5 May 2013 23: 50
            +1
            Quote: smile
            such a "jumper" on our head
            I repeat again, on the count! for Solzhenitsyn is the Component of FALSE!
        5. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 4 May 2013 16: 50
          +7
          In Germany, at the end of the 30s, the highest generals developed the advanced offensive blitzkrieg theory, which provides for the strategic deployment of troops in advance of declaring war, using convergent tank-mechanized strikes of troops in narrow directions of attack, with a large number of troops being surrounded.
          This ensured the Germans success in Poland, in France in 1939–40, where they tested the military theory of the Blitzkrieg on French and British who were not quantitatively competitive.
          The leadership of the Red Army in the pre-war period did not timely evaluate or failed to evaluate the German military innovation in the strategy of warfare and, unfortunately, mainly lost the military battles of 1941 and the summer campaign of 1942 because of this.
          As a result of this temporary defeat, the Red Army lost more than 4 million soldiers and commanders, and the state significant territory of the European part of the USSR.
          But the conclusions of the leadership of the USSR, headed by Stalin I.V. they did, the commanders learned to fight, the incapable senior generals who were able to fight in the new conditions of the war were replaced, they restored the fighting ability of the Red Army, concluded allied treaties with the USA and Great Britain, thereby isolating Germany on the world stage and guaranteed the USSR victory over fascist Germany.
          It is necessary to speak the Truth about the war and about the Victory in order to knock the ground from under the feet of the traitors and detractors of our history, such as Rezun-Suvorov and the "works" of dissident Solzhenitsin.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 May 2013 16: 23
            -1
            Proactive deployment - this is the only reason for the victories of the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war, everything else is from the evil one.
          2. Alex
            Alex 28 August 2013 22: 51
            +2
            And what is the fundamental difference between blitz krieg and the theory of deep offensive operation? In my opinion, nothing. And the events on our western border were carried out in accordance with the same blitz krieg: mobilizing troops before the declaration of war, secretly concentrating them on the border, pushing to the border as far as possible the bases of mechanized corps and field airfields, the maximum bias of the offensive / defense ratio towards the first ...
            But the fact that despite a completely different turn of the outbreak of war, the Soviet Union, its army and people managed to seize the situation, wrest the initiative from the enemy and turn the tide of the war right up to victory - this is the superiority of the Red Army over the Wehrmacht. The Germans could not do this. What is the reason, I don’t know. Either the Germans’s commitment to one behavior, or inability to think is not stereotyped, or in the short-sightedness of the military-political leadership, or something else.
        6. GOOD
          GOOD 5 May 2013 00: 37
          +1
          "... practice is the criterion of truth" ... by 1941 how many states "fell" under the 3rd Reich ???
          1. Alex
            Alex 28 August 2013 23: 05
            +2
            Quote: HOFF
            by 1941, how many states "fell" under the 3rd Reich ???

            How many have not tried? And how much did you try? Like that chicken in the joke: "Am I running too fast?"
        7. Artmark
          Artmark 5 May 2013 00: 51
          0
          courage! heroism! soldier
        8. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 5 May 2013 12: 13
          +1
          Quote: Sibiryak
          At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?


          Fighting spirit.
          1. Azzzwer
            Azzzwer 5 May 2013 23: 57
            +1
            Quote: Geisenberg
            Quote: Sibiryak
            At the expense of the best army of that period - a controversial statement! What was she better at?

            Fighting spirit.

            Need to clarify, impunity !!!!!
        9. starshina78
          starshina78 5 May 2013 15: 21
          +4
          Victory in the Battle of Kursk, Operation Bagration to liberate Belarus, Korsun - Shevchenko operation with the encirclement and capture of a huge number of prisoners, Vistula - Oder operation, defeat of the Kwantung army - is this not proof? Operation Bagration is considered ideal by Western military strategists. It is the most elaborate, which led for the first time in military science, when the attackers (Red Army) had less irrecoverable losses than the defenders. This is largely the merit of K.K. Rokossovsky. ... All operations, since 1943, have been worked through by the General Staff to such an extent that they are all successful. By this time, the Red Army had freed itself from the fear of the advancing enemy, gained experience, the command cadres were strengthened, and new equipment and aircraft began to arrive in large quantities. Starting in the air battle in the Kuban skies, our aviation became dominant in the skies. It is necessary to read more memoirs and works of historians Sibiryak. Even in the memoirs of the Germans, this fact is indicated.
        10. Federal
          Federal 5 May 2013 20: 43
          -5
          The Wehrmacht was the best army in the world until 1943. Is this a fact, examples? look at the performance of the best aces in any kind of aircraft - the Hartmann Luftwaffe with 350 damaged cars, submarines - a krechmer, prin, under 250 gross tons each as a whole owl. the fleet sank, if not mistaken, 000-300 for the whole war. Tankers Knispel carius, shruif, each more than 400 cars
          if this is not the best then what is the best ??? One country, whatever it was organized and advanced in military thought not to cope with the whole world, Germany was flooded with the whole world, but distancing myself from war crimes the Wehrmacht personally inspires admiration, with all respect for the Red Army, of course
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 May 2013 21: 30
            +4
            Well, how the Germans attributed the victory has already been discussed more than once, non-flying weather, Russian planes on the ground, but the German "aces" win, only no one knows who.
            With all due respect, the role of the Allies in the victory over the Third Reich is very insignificant, somewhere from 5 to 10% the remaining 90-95% of the victory is the merit of the USSR.
          2. Alex
            Alex 28 August 2013 23: 30
            +2
            It seems that you need to train a little boy.
            luftwaffe hartman with xnumx laden cars

            Not the downed planes, but the victories won, which is not the same in your beloved Luftwaffe. Victory was often understood to mean simple damage to an airplane, not its destruction. As for Hartman, all the figures are from his letters to the bride: his flight book, you see, has not been preserved. Very convenient, do not find.
            submarines - kretschmer, prin, under 250 000 gross tons each toga as a whole owl. the fleet sank if I am not mistaken 300 -400 000 for the whole war.

            How many warships? And how many "merchants" after they stopped walking alone and without cover for the ships of the convoy? Or are you yourself one of those who boast about how many first-graders you beat and how many grandmothers you rude?

            By the way, Prien and Shepke died in 1941, when the Allies ceased to engage in stupid things and introduced the protection of ships. As for the Soviet fleet, then this is an indicator for a war that was conducted on land, not at all bad. Or do you think that a submarine in the steppes of Ukraine is not a stupid joke?

            Tankers Knispel carious, shruif, each more than 160 vehicles

            Did you read Carius yourself? Read. If you are a fan of science fiction or, at worst, fantasy, the pleasure you will receive is simply immeasurable. From his exploits, the epic heroes of all countries and times turn pale with envy. And his mother’s maiden name is obviously Munchausen.

            if this is not the best then

            Then these are tales from the other world. So learn the materiel, young man.
            And grammar, by the way, too.
        11. dentitov
          dentitov 9 May 2013 14: 21
          -3
          What is this controversial statement? The Germans by 1941 brought Europe to their knees. England lived out the last months. France was destroyed in a few weeks, and the French had the largest army in the world at that time. The obvious cannot be denied.
          1. Alex
            Alex 28 August 2013 23: 40
            +2
            By 1941, the Germans had brought Europe to their knees.

            See above about this (how that Europe resisted).

            England lived out the last months.

            God bless England. What a pity, there was a good country. How is she alive ?! Strange, but I thought something, and her too ...

            France was destroyed in a few weeks, and the French had the largest army in the world at that time.

            One hundred Lilliputians are not worth one Gulliver. If he does not sleep, of course

            The obvious cannot be denied.

            So no one denies that Germany is the first among the latter. 9 of May of 1945 is confirmation of this.
        12. nov_tech.vrn
          nov_tech.vrn 29 August 2013 17: 00
          0
          the ratio of losses in hostilities of the Western allies is much worse than that of the USSR, the German soldier was always well trained, physically prepared, disciplined and resistant in battle, national characteristics and training, the Germans were preparing the army quietly since the mid-20s.
      2. Greyfox
        Greyfox 4 May 2013 09: 00
        10
        In fact, to get an objective picture of these data is not enough. Not only Germans fought against the Red Army, but also a pack of their allies. Just as the Germans suffered losses not only on the Soviet, but also on other fronts. And again, for the sake of objectivity, (as far as I remember, memory can fail) Solzhenitsyn spoke of the demographic losses of the USSR, i.e. he calculated the difference between the population that could be and what it became in real life.
        1. Rink
          Rink 4 May 2013 11: 23
          +5
          Quote: Greyfox
          ... Solzhenitsyn spoke of the demographic losses of the USSR, i.e. he calculated the difference between the population that could be and what it became in real life.

          Solzhenitsyn (this is a truly "speaking" surname!) IN GENERAL, he did not let down ANY justification for his numbers, and when asked by journalists where such data came from, he replied with a smile that he was a writer, not a historian. In the sense that it has the right to "artistic exaggeration".

          Stalin, in his response to Churchill's Fulton speech on May 5, 1946, which can probably be considered the start of the Cold War, called the loss of the USSR of 7 million. Most likely, this is the true, not yet politicized number of losses.
          1. yurta2013
            yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 56
            -1
            I don’t know what Solzhenitsyn said, but usually, when they call the figure of our losses of 40-50 million, they mean exactly the general losses, including demographic ones. They are calculated by subtracting the post-war population of the USSR from the pre-war population and adding up the expected growth of the country's population over the years if there had been no war. If we take into account that according to some data the results of the pre-war census in the USSR were falsified in the direction of increasing the population, then the estimated figure of the total losses will be about 10-15 million less.
            1. Shadowcat
              Shadowcat 4 May 2013 23: 52
              +4
              According to Solzhenitsyn, the Far East, in particular Magadan, has died out several times, and in Moscow people are worse than mushrooms.

              @Rink
              to the question of journalists, where did such data come from, he answered with a smile that he was a writer, not a historian
              + 1.
              I tried to read his archipelago, but quit. Well, I can’t imagine how big it is (I think I think it’s millions. It’s not comfy less, but I can lie because I tried not to litter my head) the number of people per day can be transported to anywhere from one city (MSC).
              1. antidote
                antidote 5 May 2013 16: 23
                +3
                I, too, was able to master only one book, about Ivan Denisovich. I mastered it in my youth, when it was almost banned. The language is clumsy, it’s very difficult to read. The next unfortunate writer
              2. korm-yurii
                korm-yurii 5 May 2013 18: 14
                0
                This is just an experience of artistic research. Read on the title page, only finely written.
            2. Alex
              Alex 28 August 2013 23: 44
              +2
              Demography on the level of scientific standing somewhere in the middle between astrology and meteorology.
      3. Sgt.
        Sgt. 4 May 2013 09: 37
        10
        In the beginning, the enemy attacked suddenly and had high technical superiority; German officers had good radio communications and well-established attack techniques.
        The Soviet warrior had no such experience; the officers, for the most part, were yesterday’s cadets, and the enemy defeated military equipment at the beginning of their offensive.
        Not everyone was captured, many remained standing to the end, to the last shell, to the last bullet, falling into the environment and breaking out of them became the most experienced and fearless fighters.
        Eternal memory to HEROES! Glory to the Great Soviet people!
      4. Superbandera
        Superbandera 4 May 2013 17: 41
        +1
        Quote: Mikhado
        and by the 44th excelled in their skill!

        mainly in the number of tanks. And very seriously. Plus problems with fuel and lubricants in the Wehrmacht’s armored component, which did not allow them to be used as effectively as in 1941. Although in 1941 the Red Army also had superiority in tanks, both in quantity and quality. So there was definitely progress. But the decisive role was still played by general superiority in power ...
      5. de klermon
        de klermon 4 May 2013 19: 29
        15
        Right! The Great Patriotic War - a mirror that unfolded at the turn of 42-43 years!
        How much did we lose in Belarus in the 41st and how quickly did we lose it? Wow!
        Now remember how quickly the Germans fled from there in the 44th and how much did they lose? Mirror! All the same panic, loss of communication, crowds of running soldiers on the roads - in the 44th, this is the German lot in Belarus! And who surrounded in Stalingrad (and did not fill up with corpses)? And near Kursk, who strategically defeated the enemy? And the crossing of the Dnieper? What about the Korsun-Shevchenko operation? Remember, you bastards, the feat of our grandfathers who forgot, for which the term Poland was released? Critical guys, why don't you say that the Germans fight after 1942 LEARNED?
        Everything about you, villains, and so it is clear! .. It’s a shame for the owners! It’s necessary to say something else: to talk about filling up with corpses on the part of our Motherland, which has suffered more than anyone else in the history of mankind from the very genocide by the fascist abomination, it’s not just mean it is vile and immoral!
        PS And Solzhenitsyn ... God be his judge ... Before giving such assessments and making statements, one had to put his gulag offenses to hell, and pay attention to demographics, statistics and archives! He also said something about patriotism! We had to learn the materiel!
        Happy Victory Day !!!
        1. individual
          individual 4 May 2013 20: 00
          +6
          Quite accurately said. Tough, beautiful and fair. I support. I subscribe under every word.
        2. bondanty
          bondanty 4 May 2013 22: 48
          +1
          +100500! on business!
        3. Setrac
          Setrac 5 May 2013 16: 26
          0
          Quote: de Klermon
          Critical guys, why don’t you say that the Germans have forgotten how to fight after 1942?

          But because those Germans who knew how to fight by that time were knocked out, and those who replaced the war did not know how.
          1. nnz226
            nnz226 5 May 2013 16: 59
            +2
            Manstein, Guderian and the other, and the other, and the other have not gone away. It’s just that our people learned to fight specifically, even if they paid in full with their blood. Defense of Sevastopol: 250 days the city stood !!! Manstein himself writes that the Wehrmacht never used this concentration of artillery anywhere else. About the overwhelming aviation advantage, even writing laziness. May 1944 of the year. The Germans RESTORING OUR SAME DEFENSE BOUNDARY sample 1941-42 years, decide to hold out as much. TAKE INTO ACCOUNT!!! Sea reinforcements came to them from Romania without the influence of our aviation (our ships sailed along the Crimean coast, and the whole Crimea was German in 41-42 and the Luftwaffe bombed them all the way from Novorossiysk to Sevastopol). So what?! 3 of the assault day, and the Wehrmacht crowded on Cape Chersonese, repeating with our corpses and prisoners our tragedy of July 42 of the year. Again, they were evacuated at times more comfortable through the open sea to Constanta and Varna.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 5 May 2013 19: 40
              0
              Quote: nnz226
              Manstein, Guderian and the other, and the other, and the other have not gone away.

              Of course, they didn’t go anywhere, tens and hundreds of thousands of experienced sergeants, lieutenants, captains, majors, etc., disappeared somewhere.
              1. Azzzwer
                Azzzwer 6 May 2013 00: 09
                +1
                Quote: Setrac
                tens and hundreds of thousands of experienced sergeants, lieutenants, captains, majors disappeared somewhere
                What, aren't you already dead? Yes there and the road to them !!!!
          2. Azzzwer
            Azzzwer 6 May 2013 00: 06
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            Critical guys, why don’t you say that the Germans have forgotten how to fight after 1942?
            But because those Germans who knew how to fight by that time were knocked out, and those who replaced the war did not know how.

            Well, it wasn’t hr to go where they were not asked!
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 6 May 2013 00: 09
              0
              Quote: Azzzwer
              Well, it wasn’t hr to go where they were not asked!

              Interestingly, the same thing is being said about the United States, only in the present tense.
        4. yurta2013
          yurta2013 5 May 2013 20: 13
          -1
          I will not argue about the successful offensive operations of our army in 1943-45. No one ever disputed this. But we must not forget at what price the victory in this war was given to us. It is a fact that we lost more than 8,6 million of our soldiers, and the Germans on our front (together with our allies) - at least three times less. Yes, starting from around 1943, the front-to-front loss ratio gradually leveled off. But in 1941-42. it really was very great. If not 1 to 10, then it happened 1 to 6 and even more. To deny our enormous losses is to spit on the graves of dead soldiers, whose existence you do not want to acknowledge.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 May 2013 20: 20
            +2
            Quote: yurta2013
            To deny our enormous losses is to spit on the graves of dead soldiers, whose existence you do not want to acknowledge.

            No one doubts that the USSR suffered huge losses in that war, they doubt the numbers that you give. You in your arrogance put an equal sign between yourself and those people who won in the war. Are you british
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 7 May 2013 02: 54
              -1
              I am Russian and therefore can’t separate from myself all those who died for my future in this war.
          2. Rider
            Rider 5 May 2013 21: 09
            +4
            Quote: yurta2013
            and the Germans on our front (together with their allies) - at least three times less.


            my joy, otkel such data?
            Share your revelations with the public.

            but at the same time think about what, from which it is a Budun, a country whose army did not suffer heavy losses, announced total mobilization in the summer of 43?
            and the most interesting thing, what for then in the fall of the 44th to conduct the already super-total (the same Volkssturm) with 16-year-old boys and 60-year-old grandfathers.

            HOW TO CALL THE DISABLED IF THE PERSONNEL ARMY DOESN'T HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANT LOSSES?
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 04
              -2
              Germany in terms of population was more than 2 times inferior to the USSR. Moreover, unlike us, she fought on several fronts. By 1944, she suffered significant (for her) losses on all fronts (more than 3 million killed and captured). Therefore, additional mobilization was required. As for the data on losses, they have been known for a long time. The Germans scrupulously calculated them back in the 50s on the basis of their archival documents. In our country, these data were published back in 1957 in the collection "Results of the Second World War" (p. 2). I advise you to read.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 25
                +1
                Quote: yurta2013
                Germany in terms of population more than 2 times inferior to the USSR

                The USSR fought the Third Reich, and the Third Reich surpassed the USSR in population by almost one and a half times, and in industry several times.
                Quote: yurta2013
                In addition, unlike us, she fought on several fronts.

                Fought - loudly said. In addition, the USSR also had other theaters of operations: the Far East, Central Asia, the Caucasus - which diverted significant forces.
            2. lazy
              lazy 7 May 2013 12: 42
              +1
              I completely agree with you that Germany would not have to mobilize a folk storm if the correlation of our losses would be so huge, we would do it. which means when they talk about a ratio of 1: 3 or more, they brazenly lie
          3. Smoke
            Smoke 7 May 2013 12: 27
            0
            these are your subjective feelings - three times less .... The Germans suffered losses, if not more, then certainly not less than our troops. Otherwise, the war would have ended in a different way ... period.
            I deny our BATTLE huge losses, but I do not deny the loss of civilian population in the territories occupied by fascists. Of the 27 million people in total casualties, 20 million are civilians who were shot, killed in gas chambers, stolen at the end of the camp ... So that.
            And yet, to people like you, for reference: the Germans considered their combat losses only until the end of 44 years, and the entire 45 year was almost 5 months of the war, and it was during this WAGGLING period Jan-May 45 that the Wehrmacht suffered the largest daily losses for the entire Great Patriotic War . But no one can accurately calculate them, because they stupidly did not have time to count them, and even before that it was already.
          4. Grishka100watt
            Grishka100watt 7 May 2013 16: 51
            0
            To deny our enormous losses is to spit on the graves of dead soldiers, whose existence you do not want to acknowledge.


            Well here, again, their favorite populist cheap tricks are launched ...
      6. GOOD
        GOOD 5 May 2013 00: 34
        +1
        accurate and logical
    2. an-sar
      an-sar 4 May 2013 17: 14
      12
      And who is Solzhenitsyn, the traitor and traitor of the Motherland, undermining the authority of the State with his activities and pussies, and in the difficult time for the Motherland he was causing confusion among the people!
      1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
        NOBODY EXCEPT US 4 May 2013 23: 03
        -1
        To begin with, a participant in the Second World War, almost the entire war in the trenches .... this is for reference ...
        1. dmb
          dmb 4 May 2013 23: 25
          +2
          For me, war veterans have always been saints. However, let me remind you a couple of names: Penkovsky, Yakovlev. How to deal with these? Vlasov also did not betray his homeland from day one.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 4 May 2013 23: 33
          +4
          As for the "trenches" too much, my friend.

          Horse-drawn battalion, officer school, sound reconnaissance.
        3. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 5 May 2013 05: 41
          +5
          This "veteran of the war" - Solzhenitsin, being already in the rank of captain, knowing that letters from the front are being examined by the military censorship, deliberately wrote "in a letter to a friend" insults and slander against the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Stalin IV
          In other words, Solzhenitsyn actually consciously decided to desert from the army in order to keep his skin in an area where it’s difficult, but unlike the front, they don’t shoot and bomb, and you can save your life.
        4. воронов
          воронов 5 May 2013 21: 05
          +2
          Quote: NOBODY BUT US
          To begin with, a participant in the Second World War, almost the entire war in the trenches ...

          It is not possible to fight "the whole war in the trenches", at least take an interest in the internet about the replaceability of the personnel of rifle companies, battalions, regiments who fought on the front. and the first half of 1941 and was no better. With the beginning of the widespread offensive of our army, on all fronts, from the second half of 1942. and until the storming of Berlin in 1943, the battles for our army were offensive in nature, and as you know in offensive battles, the losses of the advancing side are 1943-1945 times higher than the losses of the defenders. I am always alarmed by the words of some so-called "veterans" who declare, that from the beginning to the end of the war, he fought on the front lines in the trenches.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 May 2013 21: 38
            0
            Quote: voronov
            and as you know in offensive battles, the losses of the advancing side are 3-4 times greater than the losses of the defenders.

            Who knows this? The attackers should have a 6-fold advantage (to compensate for these same losses by 4 times) at the place of the breakthrough, and not along the entire front, and losses will be at the breakthrough point, and not along the entire front. On the confrontation front, the defenders (if they have not retreated to new positions) fall into the cauldrons and die without causing serious damage to the enemy.
            1. воронов
              воронов 5 May 2013 22: 11
              +1
              Quote: Setrac
              Quote: voronov
              and as you know in offensive battles, the losses of the advancing side are 3-4 times greater than the losses of the defenders.

              Who knows this? The attackers should have a 6-fold advantage (to compensate for these same losses by 4 times) at the place of the breakthrough, and not along the entire front, and losses will be at the breakthrough point, and not along the entire front. On the confrontation front, the defenders (if they have not retreated to new positions) fall into the cauldrons and die without causing serious damage to the enemy.

              Quote: Setrac
              Quote: voronov
              and as you know in offensive battles, the losses of the advancing side are 3-4 times greater than the losses of the defenders.

              Who knows this? The attackers should have a 6-fold advantage (to compensate for these same losses by 4 times) at the place of the breakthrough, and not along the entire front, and losses will be at the breakthrough point, and not along the entire front. On the confrontation front, the defenders (if they have not retreated to new positions) fall into the cauldrons and die without causing serious damage to the enemy.

              Judging by your illiterate commentary, it’s known to military specialists that you don’t belong to them. The front does not attack at the same time, companies, battalions, regiments, army divisions that provide an offensive to the entire front begin an offensive in its separate sections.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 5 May 2013 23: 06
                -2
                The phrases "as you know", "everyone knows", "everyone knows" as a rule conceal their own ignorance of why everything happens that way, you just like a parrot voiced someone else's opinion.
                Quote: voronov
                It is known to military experts, judging by your illiterate commentary, you do not belong to them.

                And I do not pretend to anything, I do not need to prove anything to anyone.
                Quote: voronov
                The front does not attack at the same time; companies, battalions, regiments, army divisions, which provide an offensive to the entire front, begin an offensive in its separate sections.

                Regiment, division, army, continue - front. Your front provides an advance for the front, as Munchausen pulled himself out of the swamp by the hair, your ignorance simply amazes ... and smiles).
                1. воронов
                  воронов 5 May 2013 23: 38
                  +1
                  Quote: Setrac
                  your ignorance is simply amazing ... and smiles)

                  If you don’t have enough brains to penetrate into what I have said (it’s all not invented by me, but written in the textbooks on tactics taught in VU and VA), then you really have to smile at the circus with parrots
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 5 May 2013 23: 54
                    -2
                    Quote: voronov
                    If you don’t have enough brains to understand what I’ve said (it’s not all of which was invented by me, but written in the textbooks on tactics taught in VU and VA)

                    I had no doubt WHERE you took this phrase, only textbooks should be comprehended, and not memorized.
                    Are you sure that this is what is written in the textbook?
                    Quote: voronov
                    in offensive battles, the losses of the advancing side are 3-4 times greater than the losses of the defenders.

                    This rule works, ceteris paribus - a hypothetical spherical horse in a vacuum.
                    1. воронов
                      воронов 6 May 2013 20: 28
                      0
                      Quote: Setrac
                      I had no doubt WHERE you took this phrase, only textbooks should be comprehended, and not memorized. Are you sure that this is what is written in the textbook?

                      At VU and VA I studied from textbooks and scientific works written by military scientists, honored people with extensive practical experience. I do not know which textbooks and where you studied, but judging by your comments, your "military education" is limited by the framework of secondary school or Vocational school.
                  2. Azzzwer
                    Azzzwer 6 May 2013 00: 55
                    0
                    Quote: voronov
                    If you don’t have enough brains, that would delve into what I said
                    and f you, your excellency, I will remind you of the so-called "Brusilov breakthrough" "an offensive by all armies at once, with tactical tasks for each, so that the enemy does not guess where the main blow is being struck." World War II.

                    —M. Galaktionov Foreword to “My Memoirs” by Brusilov, 1946
                    1. воронов
                      воронов 6 May 2013 20: 31
                      +2
                      Quote: Azzzwer
                      to you, Your Excellency

                      This is not for me in the charter of the SA and the RF Armed Forces there is no such appeal, there is the word COMRADE
                      1. Setrac
                        Setrac 6 May 2013 23: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: voronov
                        This is not for me in the charter of the SA and the RF Armed Forces there is no such appeal, there is the word COMRADE

                        The Tambov wolf is a comrade. Are you tired of your textbooks, do you have your own opinion? Or will you be hiding behind other people's quotes? I used to think that the phrase about "oaks" in the army is just a literary phrase, but you are proving its veracity.
                      2. воронов
                        воронов 6 May 2013 23: 54
                        +1
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Tambov Wolf - Comrade. You zadolbali

                        Tambov wolf your friend, but rather a jackal, and that would not be fucked, do not substitute laughing
                      3. Setrac
                        Setrac 6 May 2013 23: 58
                        0
                        Quote: voronov
                        Tambov wolf your friend, but rather a jackal, and that would not be fucked, do not substitute

                        You so often repeated the phrase "VU and VA I studied from textbooks" that doubts arose about your adequacy, no other information was received from you, despite the many "posts", you simply have nothing to say.
                      4. воронов
                        воронов 7 May 2013 20: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Setrac
                        no other information has been received from you

                        And I don’t have to inform you, if you are a special agent then look for informants in a different environment laughing
                      5. Setrac
                        Setrac 7 May 2013 20: 51
                        0
                        Quote: voronov
                        And I don’t have to inform you, if you are a special agent then look for informants in a different environment

                        Uel)))
      2. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 7 May 2013 17: 18
        0
        Hmm ... but A.V. Suvorov did not know this .... if he is not a military expert (although I will say that he is more likely a Master), then I don’t even know.
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 5 May 2013 19: 55
    13 th
    In fact, Solzhenitsyn was the first to report mass repressions and the existence of the Gulag in the USSR. Or do you prefer these crimes of the Stalinist regime against your own people to remain a secret forever?
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 5 May 2013 20: 16
      +2
      Quote: yurta2013
      In fact, Solzhenitsyn was the first to report mass repressions and the existence of the Gulag in the USSR. Or do you prefer these crimes of the Stalinist regime against your own people to remain a secret forever?

      Crime must be proved, and you propose to take a word! And who to believe? Solzhenitsyn - from the word to lie - his last name is a mockery of people like you.
      1. Skunk
        Skunk 6 May 2013 16: 06
        -3
        To prove? And everything has long been proven. Many archives are open - go read. Who was repressed, for what? Do not want to believe Solzhenitsyn, try to read the documents yourself, sometimes it can be useful. It's funny to hear such requests for evidence)))
        One gets the impression that people who need proof of the massive repressions of the Stalinist regime grew up wearing pink glasses and, apart from the 1953 edition of Youth about the Soviet Army, did not read anything else.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 6 May 2013 17: 41
          +1
          Quote: Skunk
          render? And everything has long been proven. Many archives are open - go read. Who was repressed, for what? Do not want to believe Solzhenitsyn, try to read the documents yourself, sometimes it can be useful. It's funny to hear such requests for evidence)))
          One gets the impression that people who need proof of the massive repressions of the Stalinist regime grew up wearing pink glasses and, apart from the 1953 edition of Youth about the Soviet Army, did not read anything else.

          I do not believe in the innocence of the criminals, they sentenced, convicted, it means to blame, no need to break the law. Innocent - a small percentage !!! Yes and these mass repressions were not so massive. There are much more people sitting in the USA now, and not a single liberal bastard squeaked about it, the statue of liberty went for a walk.
          P.S. You are recklessly conducting anti-Russian rhetoric, I understand that in our time they will not be imprisoned for this and will not be shot, but times can change, and you are already on the pencil with the special services. Pray.
          1. Skunk
            Skunk 6 May 2013 21: 11
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            I do not believe in the innocence of criminals, sentenced, convicted, then blame

            The song is good:
            "... With a soft glove, a hard fist,
            Who is the most intelligent, he is my enemy
            Three times three is ten, twice two is five,
            On @ # th I know, if I may not know ... "

            Sounds like about you. Do you miss the host?

            Quote: Setrac
            but times can change, and you are already on the pencil with the special services. Pray

            Mdaaaaa. It would be funny if it were so sad. I don’t need to pray, but to you, that God would give at least a little sanity.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 6 May 2013 23: 47
              0
              Quote: Skunk
              The song is good:

              Well, of course, the song is credibility.
              Quote: Skunk
              Mdaaaaa. It would be funny if it were so sad. I don’t need to pray, but to you, that God would give at least a little sanity.

              I have enough sanity not to go against my country. Do you seriously think that a repetition of the 37th year is impossible? Look at the USA.
              1. Skunk
                Skunk 7 May 2013 13: 02
                0
                37th? It is very unlikely that one of the reasons for the repressions is the low communication capabilities of the population in the 30s and the complete state control over the media. Well, as it is now in the DPRK. In Russia there is no such thing. And to spin the flywheel of repression will be quite difficult. You will remember August of the 91st year ... Now everyone is brewing in one information field, any hint of a return on the 37th will cause such a public outcry that it will not seem a returner.
                What to look at the USA? You were there? I was. And you know, to that atmosphere of freedom, equality, which is impregnated with that society at all levels, we still like cancer before the moon ...
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 7 May 2013 13: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: Skunk
                  What to look at the USA? You were there? I was. And you know, to that atmosphere of freedom, equality, which is impregnated with that society at all levels, we still like cancer before the moon ...

                  I have not been to the United States, and what kind of atmosphere I can’t say. At the moment, there are one and a half times more repressed in the USA than there were in the USSR in the pre-war period.
                  1. Skunk
                    Skunk 7 May 2013 14: 06
                    0
                    Yeah. But I don’t understand why to grab the numbers from the context? Let's count:

                    1. The population of the USSR in 1940 was 194. The number of Gulag prisoners as of January 077, 000 was 1. Consequently, per 1941 population, the number of prisoners was 1.
                    Sources:
                    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%D3%CB%E0%E3
                    http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/bse/129063/%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0

                    2. USA at the end of 2011, the number of prisoners 2 people. With a population of 239.
                    Consequently, per 100 population, the number of prisoners was 000.
                    A source:
                    http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_country.php?country=190

                    994 and 716, what is asked more ????
                    Despite the fact that the number of prisoners in the United States increased by almost 40% in the late 90s, while the Clinton administration tightened its punishment for the possession and distribution of drugs.
                    Or is drugs good? wink
                  2. Setrac
                    Setrac 7 May 2013 14: 28
                    +1
                    Include prisoners outside the US and subtract prisoners "in the settlement," after all, a settlement is not a prison. But it doesn't matter, what matters is that the difference is small, but nobody blames the United States, you don't blame.
                    Quote: Skunk
                    Or is drugs good?

                    Most of the repressed - for misuse of funds - and in Russian - for theft!
                    Or is stealing good? wink
    2. yurta2013
      yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 10
      -2
      Mass repression has long been proven. Only those whose ancestors apparently served then in the NKVD are trying by all means to whitewash these crimes and erase their memory in the minds of the people. There are many of you in our city, which stands literally on the bones of hundreds of thousands of prisoners who died here (it was the capital of BAMLAG). It is no coincidence that even in our country the authorities have been feeding us with promises for 200 years to erect a monument to the victims of repression, but so far they have not done anything for this.
      1. 3 inches.
        3 inches. 10 May 2013 10: 51
        0
        dear, I advise you to read 12 chairs and a golden calf once again. here the future represenants are well shown. Now the country is being pulled away. And apart from the gulag, nothing comes to mind ..
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 00
          -2
          I can repeat it again. I live in a city that in the Stalin era was the capital of the BAMLAG (camp system for the construction of the 1st BAM). Still alive are people who saw camp zones that occupied a significant part of the city territory. Oral and written evidence has been preserved. This is in your place in Moscow, where prisoners were only seen at the construction of the Moscow State University building, you can allow yourself not to want to know anything about the Stalinist repressions. As for the mackerel, they then sat down under a criminal article and this has nothing to do with political repressions.
          1. 3 inches.
            3 inches. 17 May 2013 18: 32
            0
            about Moscow you’ve started my friend. I saw the former zones. There is such a free town in the Amur region. So I saw them too. But this does not mean that I am a witness to political repression.
      2. Alex
        Alex 29 August 2013 00: 43
        +2
        None of my relatives have ever served in the VChK-NKVD-NKGB-GKB, but I saw how children in Ukraine are brainwashed with the "Holodomor". He himself worked at school for 25 years, with the headmistress of the gymnasium on the eve of the lesson on the famine he was at knives. So without proof, all this is Khrushchev's lies. It would be true. there would be no criminal liability for denying it. With repression, the same parsley: publish materials, bring evidence and mouths will be closed forever.
  • brelok
    brelok 6 May 2013 05: 55
    +2
    Quote: yurta2013
    In fact, Solzhenitsyn was the first to report mass repressions and the existence of the Gulag in the USSR. Or do you prefer these crimes of the Stalinist regime against your own people to remain a secret forever?

    Do you think less people are sitting now? In the United States, there are currently more than XNUMX convicts than we have under Stalin.
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 7 May 2013 10: 53
      -2
      Do not confuse criminals with unfair prisoners for political reasons, which, for the most part, represented the most thinking part of the nation. By the way, in those days, you and I would not have avoided this fate, for a language too long.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 42
        +1
        Quote: yurta2013
        By the way, in those days, you and I would not have avoided this fate, for a language too long.

        Do you think this is not possible in our time? You are wrong!
        Quote: yurta2013
        Do not confuse criminals with unfair prisoners for political reasons, which, for the most part, represented the most thinking part of the nation.

        This is a controversial statement.
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 07
          0
          You, apparently, have never read the memoirs of former Gulag prisoners. I advise you to read at least the memories of actor Zhzhenov. I hope you will not blame this man for being a traitor and working for Western intelligence agencies.
  • derik1970
    derik1970 6 May 2013 14: 38
    +1
    I agree with you, Solzhenitsyn worked for Western intelligence services, and he could lie about Russia, exposing it in an unattractive light. Traitor he is a traitor. He would be to the wall, and he would be honored ... And it’s worth thinking about it, there are a lot of people like him in our country.
  • luka095
    luka095 4 May 2013 17: 15
    +7
    Not from the evil one, but from the enemy’s trenches in the information war and the fifth column here.
    To the question of the skill of the Wehrmacht:
    casualties during the capture of Norway - 1317;
    Greece - 1484;
    Poland - 10572.
    The loss of the Wehrmacht in three weeks - from 6.12.1941/27.12.1941/120000 to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX - XNUMX killed.
    Irreversible losses of the Red Army for the month (in the Moscow strategic offensive operation) - from 05.12.1941/07.01.1942/140000 to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX - XNUMX. And this is the forty-first year!
    In captivity, 57.8% of Soviet prisoners - 2.5 million people were killed. Americans and British - 4%.
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 4 May 2013 20: 18
      +8
      Pulls .... praise of the fascist army.
      Just think of the order for the western districts - "... don't give in to provocations, don't open fire .."
      This is until the evening of June 22, 1941.
      Well, someone would try - not to follow the order. There were already scientists - they fought to the death. The Germans "pissed them in their boots", in fact, while ours wiped themselves off - Provocation.
      How easier ... do not open fire .. ??? Remove all triggers, bolts, etc. from military weapons ... - was done. By artillery. To withdraw the weapon itself, small arms - was done.
      With airplanes and ships, this did not creep in - therefore both the Air Force and the Navy entered the war from the first moments. The border guards entered, according to their specifics.
      And all the Directives for bringing to the BG - starting from the evening of June 21, 1941 - WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL in the troops. And when they had time, they no longer needed them. Fights have already been fought - with what was found, including the trench tool.
      After the use of sapper blades, the German infantry somehow ... and made the decision not to engage in hand-to-hand combat.
      ....
      Show the best army in the world - that would withstand a SURROUND PUNCH?
      Even the previously prepared lines were torn and bent - an example, the same Kursk-Oryol operation. The Germans still managed to push out our troops. Yes, and broke off. Forever.
      The Kwantung army knew about our preparations. Blown away.
      Starting in 1942, the Germans knew about our preparations - and, nevertheless, did not hold the front.
      Like us, at Balaton.
      But the Moscow operation of 1941-1942 !!!! Story! With lesser forces to drive the enemy away from the capital in winter with abnormal temperatures - this was only the Red Army could do.
      Well, how can the "best army in the world" admit that it was kicked in the teeth with lesser forces? Of course, General Moroz did. According to the tinsel.
      ....
      So ... great honor and glory to our army and people. Resisted. Have won!
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 5 May 2013 19: 48
        -7
        Honor and glory to our people for having won. Just distorting the historical truth is still not worth it. Who told you that all the triggers, etc. were seized, that small arms were seized? There is no need to turn history into an anecdote. Everything has been said about a surprise attack long ago. This is Stalin's own fault. As well as the unpreparedness of the army for this attack. At the beginning of the war, the Germans managed not to "press out" our army, but in fact to defeat almost all of its pre-war divisions. Thank God that our mobilization resources were very large. Near Moscow, General Moroz also played a role. German engines really stalled in our frosts, which nullified the superiority of the Germans in technology. The Germans were really poorly provided with warm uniforms (Hitler's strategy miscalculation). All this must be taken into account when assessing the actions of our and German troops during the war years. One "Hurray" will not go far.
        1. Igarr
          Igarr 5 May 2013 21: 16
          +5
          I hate smart people ... theorists
          Nobody smashed anyone ..
          The capture of captured Red Army fighters was approximately 2,5 million people.
          Yes, in scrap I just talk to you, not rummaging, to talk ...
          ..This is Stalin’s own fault.
          ... German motors really stalled in our frosts,
          ... the army's unpreparedness for this attack. At the beginning of the war, the Germans managed not to "press out" our army, but in fact to defeat almost all of its pre-war divisions.
          .
          The motors were of Nosovikhinsky production, developed by comrade IvanOv Ivan Ivanovich.
          The army was personally comrade Stalin IvanOm IvanOvich unprepared.
          The Germans personally defeated the army of IvanOv, who do not remember kinship.
          .
          The Germans really were poorly provided with warm uniforms (a miscalculation of Hitler's strategy)
          ... uh ... yo ... yo ..
          Milyat .... yes you .. merchants Adolf Shiklgrubery so burst - did not provide their fighters with warm underpants ???
          .
          Such stupid objections ... I do not perceive the spirit.
          It seems right - but the feeling of talking like crazy ....
          .
          What, burst my eyes, FROST ... in the battle of Smolensk? In Vyazemsky?
          Why are these frosts .... kill you cat .. our troops did not act ?????
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 May 2013 21: 42
            -1
            Quote: Igarr
            The capture of captured Red Army fighters was approximately 2,5 million people.

            I want to add - the entire western army of the USSR (all 2.5 million people) surrendered in full force, there were neither killed nor retreated wassat
            1. Igarr
              Igarr 5 May 2013 21: 49
              +1
              ... surrendered in full force ...
              There may be ... options ...
              surrounded and unarmed ... boys ...
              and ... all of a sudden ... there was a mass - of commissioners ... of unidentified ...
              who offered to give up?
              without commanders?
              For some reason, it was in the month of June that the whole middle command link was urged to rest ... on holidays ...
              does not evoke anything ??
              Capture, by the way, was more. Well, at least you understand what it is about ..
          2. yurta2013
            yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 16
            0
            Can you read? I talked about frosts in the Moscow battle. What does Smolensk, Vyazma have to do with it? Our troops were provided with winter uniforms, since these are the troops of our country, in which winters are always freezing. In Germany, there is practically no frost. Hitler hoped to take Moscow before the onset of cold weather, and therefore did not take care of winter uniforms. Anyway, why should I tell you common truths that even a child knows? Read at least textbooks, if you have not forgotten how to read.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 47
              0
              Quote: yurta2013
              Our troops were provided with winter uniforms, since these are the troops of our country, in which winters are always freezing.

              But Hitler was going to leave the occupying forces in the occupied territory, and very significant, in addition, it would be necessary to keep troops against the remnants of the Red Army in Siberia! So winter clothes were needed in any situation.
              Quote: yurta2013
              Anyway, why should I tell you common truths that even a child knows?

              Again, a reference to the fact that "well, everyone knows," "even children." We are not "all" and not "children".
              1. yurta2013
                yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 15
                0
                Winter clothes, of course, were on the limited scale that you are talking about. However, she was not placed in the troops going to Moscow, since Hitler was not going to stretch this operation until the winter. According to Guderian, the clothes were sent in November, but got stuck somewhere at the railway stations in the rear and did not reach the troops. The Germans began to receive it in sufficient quantities after retreating from Moscow.
              2. Alex
                Alex 29 August 2013 10: 40
                +2
                Quote: Setrac
                So winter clothes were needed in any situation.

                However, the winter uniform (not warm clothes and grandmother’s shawls) in the full sense of the word never appeared. Or were you hoping winter would be better in 1942?
            2. Grishka100watt
              Grishka100watt 7 May 2013 17: 23
              0
              Our troops were provided with winter uniforms, since these are the troops of our country


              Our conversations do not speak.
              Or by "our" you mean clearly not the Red Army.
        2. Alex
          Alex 29 August 2013 00: 50
          +2
          By God, I just don’t understand how you can be so stubborn. Probably, you can convince such a person. just putting him in a time machine and leaving him at 41 in Belarus. Let there be a story about Stalin and his stupidity. And now it’s easy to tweak all the facts for a previously known version.
  • GOOD
    GOOD 5 May 2013 00: 34
    +2
    logical and accurate
  • Geisenberg
    Geisenberg 5 May 2013 12: 14
    +2
    Quote: Sibiryak
    Was the Red Army able to fight?

    If she could not, then there would be no victory! And all the talk about hatred from the evil one!


    What is characteristic is some kind of scum minus the article. Not for the most obvious fact.
    1. OTTO
      OTTO 5 May 2013 14: 35
      +2
      It turns out to someone not obvious ... God is their judge
  • Federal
    Federal 5 May 2013 20: 26
    +1
    in general, it doesn’t beg for victory, but ...... there’s a lot but ... what to dissemble, the loss of the first months of 670 thousand on the Dnieper, 660 thousand under the Vyazma, the defeat near Bialystok, the boilers under Uman and southern Ukraine are hardly survived would be another army in the world. Of course, they survived thanks to mobilization reserves, Siberian divisions, winters and extended communications of the Germans, and this is not a fact about the talented Zhukov. Survived by private Vanka through the impossibility, mate re-admission, due to the inherent Slavic stubbornness. And then the USSR began to crush industry from the Urals. Without underestimating the victory, I think the Germans don’t turn to Ukraine in August, don’t lose the summer month to the front of Kirponos, Moscow fell b., And then who knows .....
    1. Igarr
      Igarr 5 May 2013 22: 05
      +1
      Well, Moscow would have fallen ..
      hardly .. your Ukrainians would have been more joy ..
      The capital would have moved ... first to Kuybyshev ... on the Volga ... they didn’t sell it to Chelyabinsk ... further - to Tobolsk, to Omsk, to Novosibirsk ... to Chita, to Vladik ..
      One guess here ... 77 ...
      No one got through .. remember ..
      neither Atilla, nor the Tatar-Mongols, nor Muscovite Russia, nor ... not anyone, in short.
      Except ourselves. Slavs, ...
      And then, remember my words ... Zapadentsev only become worse ...
      because the Slovenes came later ... to him ...
      I swear by Christ ...
    2. Azzzwer
      Azzzwer 6 May 2013 01: 12
      0
      Quote: Federal
      Moscow fell B., and then how to know .....
      Yes it would be the same as May 9 1945 of the year. So do not rejoice Badeowitz
    3. Alex
      Alex 29 August 2013 11: 00
      +2
      Quote: Federal
      I think the Germans don’t turn to Ukraine in August; don’t lose the summer month to the front of Kirponos

      That would get a stab in the back. Just when the forehead in the Moscow Front (this was not, excuse me for liberties in terminology) rested. Or were decisions just made?
      What is the situation in late summer - early autumn 1941? Significant parts of the Red Army have been defeated, but there is no need to even think about destruction. The pace of advancement is high (in some places even huge), but somehow it does not look like a victory march. The front is constantly breaking through, but complete collapse is seen only in pleasant night dreams. The trophies are huge, but replenishments are constantly coming to the front (thank God, though not in such quantities as necessary). Boilers and encirclements arise all the time, but these damned Russians cling to every more or less suitable area of ​​defense. Moreover, this "line of Stalin" and this Kirponos, who in some incomprehensible way managed to organize the defense, which will have to spend time and effort. And oh, how they are already beginning to be missed! And the worst thing is that neither Kienv, nor Leningrad, nor Moscow, nor the industrial Donbass have been taken. It's good that even though Minsk has already been captured, there is something to pour into the ears of the burghers.
      And winter in this environment? Yes, we need to fix something before the New Year. Should the Bolsheviks leave Kharkov with its "locomotive" plant? Yes, these "locomotives" of the T-34 brand are already a bone in their throat! Let Donbass continue to mine the best coal in Europe and cook armor in Mariupol? In winter, you can't get them from field airfields; here you would have to rush in with tanks. I don't think we need to continue.

      Now let's look at the situation in the 50s and 60s. The "hot" war is over, the "cold" war is in full swing. How it happened, very few people know (and who knows, they keep quiet). It is necessary to find a scapegoat, since "the dead have no shame." Hitler is an ideal candidate, so we will blame everything on him. And the man in the street already understands everything: the war ends with the capture of the capital. Everything worked out: we - smart generals - wanted to take Moscow and victoriously end the war, but he - stupid Hitler - did not give us this. On his pope, on his pope ...

      You think I’m exaggerating a lot? Read the memoirs, there this thesis passes with a red thread.
  • Renat
    Renat 4 May 2013 08: 41
    +2
    The Red Army knew how to win. Which proved once again. The price of the issue, of course, was catastrophically huge, but nevertheless it was the Red Army that won.
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 46
      +2
      No one doubts that the Red Army knew how to win, even abroad. The question is how skillfully our troops acted in different battles of different periods of the war. Knowing these shortcomings does not weaken, but rather strengthens us.
  • George
    George 4 May 2013 08: 43
    23
    Solzhenitsyn, how much nastiness and filth in this word.
    1. Renat
      Renat 4 May 2013 09: 01
      12
      One word is a disident. To live in the country to use its gifts and at the same time to s.at on it. Many followers are still in our country.
      1. fatty
        fatty 4 May 2013 20: 42
        +3
        his return is especially disgusting with PR paid to the bibisi.
  • family tree
    family tree 4 May 2013 09: 38
    15
    After the defeat at Stalingrad in Germany, they announced a total mobilization. The mobilization of men from 16 to 65 years old and women from 17 to 45 years old was announced. Of course, not everyone ended up in the army, women and men unfit for service fell into labor service or other imperial services. In addition, criminals were released from prison with sentences of up to 12 years if they agreed to serve on the "Eastern Front". Until the landing of the Allies in Normandy another year to wait.
    In October 1944, a "super-total" mobilization was announced. All unsuitable men from 16 to 65 years old were collected in the Volkssturm battalions. These were serf troops, militia type, for the defense of "Festungs", strong points in the cities of Germany. In addition, labor service was announced for men over 65 and women under 55. It is difficult to imagine a more total mobilization. The allies appeared in Normandy 3 months ago and in two months they will be bogged down in Arennes.
    On December 11, 1941, US observers estimated the loss of the Germans to be killed at 1,3 million people, which is about 8 times the German figure of 167 thousand people on December 1, 1941. According to the Sovinformburo, the total losses of the Germans during the summer and autumn of 1941 amounted to about 6 million people, which means that the irretrievable losses of about 2 million people. This is 12 times higher than the statements of the German side.
    It's the same as it was necessary to grind the Wehrmacht, so that we had to put children and the elderly under arms. Was the Red Army able to fight? what
  • erased
    erased 4 May 2013 09: 43
    16
    There are new studies that take into account not only the losses of the German army, but also of their allies, who also fought against the USSR. In addition, data are provided on the falsification of German casualty figures.
    But the point is not even that. And the fact that the enemy propaganda today is doing everything to replay the results of the Second World War. And their singers here for bucks and euros support nonsense and seek to introduce these tales into the minds of people. Through books, cinema, pseudoscientific data.
    And we are losing this information war.
    1. tttttt
      tttttt 4 May 2013 10: 05
      +3
      Briefly and clearly, he himself wanted to write about this. I put bold +
  • omsbon
    omsbon 4 May 2013 10: 42
    +6
    It may be worthwhile to officially fix the loss figure and involve the idiots disputing it in forced public works.
    And yet, the destiny of all the vanquished is to try to justify their defeat.
    1. Rink
      Rink 4 May 2013 12: 10
      +7
      Quote: omsbon
      It may be worthwhile to officially fix the loss figure and involve the idiots disputing it in forced public works.

      Very good thought!
      Jews dragged laws not only in their home countries, but also in the main European states, according to which, for doubting the fact or even just the figures of the Holocaust, anyone should be prosecuted.

      Why not Russia, even if only for a start, in its own legislation, doesn’t introduce the same responsibility for attempts to revise the assessments of the Great Patriotic War and falsify events and generally the history of that period?

      I believe that after the creation of a single textbook of Russian history necessarily need to introduce such a responsibility. And the textbook should not be written neutrally toothless, with an eye to how we would not offend the feelings of Americans or humiliate the defeated Germans, but frankly patriotic.
      Some Americans and Germans are not embarrassed to ALREADY rewrite history! and they don’t even care about observing the appearance of historical veracity ...

      Of course, the Russian history textbook should be extremely truthful and contain only reliable, irrefutable facts and data. Because he immediately after the release will undergo enhanced critical analysis by all forces of liberoids. If they find even a drop of false data there, it will be extremely difficult to restore the authority of the textbook. (Therefore, it is probably justified to include, among other things, captured German archives and information from the open American and English press of that period, since it will certainly make it difficult to challenge and refute and knock out the ground from future propaganda charges.)

      Therefore, the collective of historians who will be involved in the creation of this textbook faces an extremely difficult and important task. But without such a textbook it is impossible in any way - this is a platform for restoring the sovereignty and integrity of Russia.
      1. Gur
        Gur 4 May 2013 13: 09
        +4
        In order to create a history textbook, you must at least put false historians, and all kinds of figures around the historical and literary arts. I agree with you about the creation of a law on responsibility for attempts to revise the assessments and results of the Second World War, and a law that even excludes the possibility of freely interpreting the figures of the dead and the possibility of "own vision" of the war for all cinema figures.
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 38
          0
          What you offer is the surest way to create a false history textbook. When creating this textbook, you need to rely on the totality of facts confirmed by genuine evidence of those years. This should be done by professional historians. But since even genuine facts can be evaluated in different ways, the textbooks should somehow present the main points of view on each problem.
          1. Egoza
            Egoza 4 May 2013 22: 54
            +2
            Quote: yurta2013
            When creating this textbook, you need to rely on the totality of facts confirmed by genuine evidence of those years.

            Well yes! Only in this case will it be necessary to recognize the role of I.V. Stalin. But how is this possible under current conditions?
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 5 May 2013 15: 40
              +1
              The role of Stalin is also quite controversial. I hope that in a future textbook it will be evaluated objectively, that is, from both the positive and negative sides.
              1. воронов
                воронов 5 May 2013 22: 24
                0
                Quote: yurta2013
                The role of Stalin is also quite controversial.

                And what do you see the contradiction of I.V. Stalin, in the fact that from the first days, as the supreme commander in chief, he led the armed forces and became chairman of the State Defense Committee, or that he did not run away from Moscow, when in November 1941. Did the Germans look through the binoculars at the Kremlin?
                1. yurta2013
                  yurta2013 7 May 2013 04: 05
                  0
                  This is only one of his positive roles. You forgot to mention the negative.
      2. korm-yurii
        korm-yurii 5 May 2013 18: 23
        0
        And here’s Ukraine’s reason to present its claims to Germany. More than 3 million Germans destroyed in Ukraine. And then all Russia wanted and wants to lime them.
    2. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 40
      +1
      It makes sense to allow everyone to work in the archives. Then the correct loss figure will be clear to everyone without forced community service.
    3. bondanty
      bondanty 4 May 2013 23: 03
      +2
      "to justify their defeat" - aptly noticed!
  • Nomad
    Nomad 4 May 2013 10: 43
    +6
    Everything is written correctly. A chapter in the book "The Great Blundered War" is devoted to the issue of losses, the conclusions are the same, I recommend. All with the upcoming Victory Day!
  • individual
    individual 4 May 2013 10: 45
    12
    Was the Red Army able to fight?


    And you do not ask the cabinet tantrum (from the slanting army).
    You ask the soldier who took Berlin !!!
    1. Colonel
      Colonel 4 May 2013 15: 14
      +3
      Or a German soldier who raised his hands in Berlin.
    2. воронов
      воронов 5 May 2013 23: 46
      +1
      Quote: individ
      Was the Red Army able to fight?


      And you do not ask the cabinet tantrum (from the slanting army).
      You ask the soldier who took Berlin !!!

      Quote: individ
      Was the Red Army able to fight?


      And you do not ask the cabinet tantrum (from the slanting army).
      You ask the soldier who took Berlin !!!

      I’ll even call the name of this cabinet scientist, this is Svanidze
  • lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 4 May 2013 10: 56
    +8
    So, even A. I. Solzhenitsyn put into circulation a figure of 44 million people.

    It’s interesting, since when did this scraper become an expert in history? When did he have access to archival data? When he was sitting in the camp or when he was thrown out of the country, like a naughty cat? What can you expect from a scribbler who hates his country?
    1. smile
      smile 4 May 2013 15: 07
      +2
      lewerlin53ru
      Hello !
      All the necessary information was whispered in his ear by the Tsareushniki ... they all know that there are no more crystal-clear comrades in the world ... well, except that there was still Goebbels before ... so they sat in a tight circle on Radio Liberty and considered ....
  • lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 4 May 2013 11: 07
    +4
    Interesting. But Stalingrad, Berezina, the Battle of Kursk, the capture of Berlin, the defeat of the Kwantung Army, and much more, too, from inability?
    1. ekama1
      ekama1 4 May 2013 11: 34
      +1
      We won the Second World War, and it seems that we are losing the Third. And she goes and
      the rate in it is the very existence of Russia.
      1. Rink
        Rink 4 May 2013 12: 31
        +6
        Quote: ekama1
        They won the Second World War, but the third seems to be losing ....

        A defeat in one battle or another is not yet a loss in the entire war. The main thing is to prevent a panic, and until the Russians themselves give up - no one will do anything with them.

        The main thing is not to stop being Russian, to keep your spirit. Remember, the unforgettable: - "There is a Russian spirit here, here it smells of Russia! .." How will it begin to smell not of Russia, but of liberals, McDonald's and French male perfume - then consider that Russia ceased to exist without a single shot.

        This Russian spirit is now trying to exterminate the Russians. Its "Western values" in the form of LGBT people, its monstrously cynical films with a vicious worldview and the training of our youth in their universities.
        The greatest contribution to this cause is made by the Russian media ("SMRAD") and homegrown liberal Westernizers. They are the main weapon of the West in the fight against the Russian ethnos.
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 24
          -1
          It seems to me that you in vain include attempts to honestly understand our history with the influence of Western values. Understanding past mistakes is necessary so as not to commit them again. Turning a blind eye to them just because they can ruin our reputation as an invincible power is an ostrich approach. To remain invincible, you need to know your weaknesses and correct them in time.
          1. Rink
            Rink 4 May 2013 19: 34
            +3
            Quote: yurta2013
            It seems to me that you in vain include attempts to honestly understand our history with the influence of Western values. Understanding past mistakes is necessary so as not to commit them again. ...

            This does not logically follow from my post.
            The influence of "Western values" needs to be blocked because they destroy the nation. It is by this psychological treatment that a formally Russian person (Karaganov) publicly issues such maxims:



            But I never offered to turn a blind eye to my own story and mistakes, where did you get this from? Show a quote, or what?
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 5 May 2013 15: 59
              +1
              I'm sorry. Perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion from the context of your comments. As for the harmful influence of many Western values ​​on modern Russian youth, this is really happening. True, the most destructive role in this is played by the so-called "mass culture", which originated in the United States in the middle of the last century and is destroying today not only our national culture, but also the culture of the West itself, as well as the East. By the way, perhaps it is the response to the onset of Western "mass culture" that explains the growth of fundamentalism among the peoples of the Muslim world. As for Kalganov, after these words, I strongly doubt his Russian origin.
        2. ekama1
          ekama1 4 May 2013 18: 58
          +1
          I completely agree with the second and third parts of your post, but
          about: "Defeat in one or the other battle is not yet a loss in the whole war" - IMHO, we lost our Stalingrad with the collapse of the USSR.
          1. Rink
            Rink 4 May 2013 19: 44
            +2
            Quote: ekama1
            ... IMHO, we lost our Stalingrad with the collapse of the USSR.

            Very controversial.
            I would say that we lost the initial stage of the war, the invasion.
            Stalingrad is ahead.

            If you don’t give up, don’t get depressed with tears smearing down your beard, don’t surrender to what you think are "winners", then you will see that the enemy is already running out of steam.

            In the end, are we Russian or not ?! Little Syria - fighting, for 20 years the Yankees could not do anything with a handful of Taliban. In Russia, the rise of the economy and the rearmament of the army — where do you get such defeatist sentiments from ?! Our grandfathers and in the environment did not give up, until the last bullet fought, to hand-to-hand combat. Have you decided to take Stalingrad already?
            Bury early.
            1. ekama1
              ekama1 4 May 2013 20: 31
              0
              I have no decadent moods, I just need to really assess the situation, Russia participated in several local conflicts
              after the Second World War, the results are known to everyone (dubious), and
              still the lack of unity, the collapse of the army, etc.
              1. Rink
                Rink 4 May 2013 22: 45
                +3
                Quote: ekama1
                I have no decadent moods, I just need to really assess the situation, Russia participated in several local conflicts
                after the Second World War, the results are known to everyone (dubious), and
                still the lack of unity, the collapse of the army, etc.


                Let's really evaluate, nivaproz!
                Korea? Vietnam? Angola Ah, Afghanistan! so there the Yankees could not do anything for a longer period and more money, and this despite the fact that Russia did not help the Taliban in any way, not like the Yankees to the Mujahideen ... Chechnya? Georgia?
                Where exactly did Russia show dubious results?

                (Yes, in Chechnya I would like to complete everything faster and with less losses. But these were the most difficult years for Russia, and there were probably thousands of mercenaries in Chechnya. But even in this situation, the victory remained with Russia! So no matter what, Russia always acted quite successfully, with quite adequate results.)

                As for the lack of unity: who do you think should restore it? should good uncle Sam come and do everything well? or should the OSCE take care? or which commission under the UN should adopt a resolution establishing unity in Russia? Or maybe stop groaning and do the work yourself - what is the more real turn of events?

                The collapse of the army? so this is not new to Russians. We always have collapse and sloppiness there. And before the Great Patriotic War, if you remember, rearmament, retraining, reformation also took place ... But! The result ALWAYS was the same: whiners and weak-willed, of course, could have surrendered, but the bulk of the Red / Soviet / Russian army quickly reminded the adversaries of the lessons of past years and centuries.

                So stop groaning, this is a woman’s business!
                1. Rider
                  Rider 4 May 2013 23: 15
                  +5
                  Quote: Skating rink
                  The collapse of the army? so this is not new to Russians. We always have collapse and sloppiness there. And before the Great Patriotic War, if you remember, there was also a rearmament


                  inspired: Proud, unshakable self-confidence in our own superiority is also our greatest weakness, because a proud man can be easily fooled, and our greatest strength, because the most terrible defeats, failures, catastrophes do not make the slightest impression on a Russian - where other people are in horror skidding and dying from depression, imperturbable Russians are just beginning to get a taste. "Blitzkrieg? The cadre army destroyed? Already near Moscow scouts have seen? Well, business ... And this jam is so tasty, what is it from? Raspberry jam? Good jam ... get my overcoat there."

                  taken: http://oko-planet.su/politik/politiklist/109034-kak-horosho-byt-russkim.html


                  and you, colleague ZHIIRIRNY +

                  wink
                  1. Rink
                    Rink 5 May 2013 19: 47
                    +2
                    Quote: Rider
                    ... Proud, unshakable self-confidence in our own superiority is also our greatest weakness, because it is easy to deceive a proud man, and our greatest strength, because the most terrible defeats, failures, catastrophes do not make the slightest impression on a Russian - where another people in horror skidded and dying from depression, imperturbable Russians are just beginning to get a taste. "Blitzkrieg? Cadre army destroyed? Already near Moscow scouts have seen? Well, business ... And this jam is so tasty, is it from what? Raspberry jam? Good jam ... get my overcoat there."

                    Thanks, good quote! need to remember...
                    Although looking at the rest of the posts of this blogger (Yegor Prosvirnin) - I can not share his position and his views.

                    I like Pavel Krusanov more. In his "White Raven, A History of Living Beings." he wrote about the Russian people as follows:
                    ... Russians are infinitely talented in everything, even if at times they find themselves in borrowed form. They are brilliant in the sciences and the arts, they are impenetrable in ignorance and self-righteous in dullness, they are stubborn and inventive in work, they are incomparable in dreamy laziness, they are selfless in prayer and the deed of faith, they are more skillful than the devil in sin and vice, but still the main thing is sin and vice Russian - war and the construction of power, because it is in these areas that the Russians are able, like no one, to bear the blows of fate.

                    But Krusanov's most powerful book, in my opinion, is "Angel's Bite". I recommend it to everyone who has not read it yet. It is also available on the Web and can be downloaded. Although the paper version is certainly better.

                    It is also interesting how Europeans see us. Especially those who cannot be suspected of sympathizing with the Russians. For example, Otto Von Bismarck (Otto Eduard Leopold Karl-Wilhelm-Ferdinand Duke von Lauenburg Prince von Bismarck und Schonhausen, 1815-1898) wrote:
                    Even the most successful outcome of the war will never lead to the collapse of Russia, which is supported by millions of Russian believers of the Greek faith.
                    These latter, even if they are subsequently separated by international treaties, will just as quickly reconnect with each other as the separated drops of mercury find this way to each other.
                    It is an indestructible State of the Russian nation, strong in its climate, in its spaces and in its unpretentiousness, as well as through its awareness of the need for constant protection of its borders. This State, even after complete defeat, will remain our product, striving for revenge by the enemy ...


                    A little later, Joseph Goebbels spoke out ("On the so-called Russian soul", 19.07.1942):
                    Courage is courage inspired by spirituality. The persistence with which the Bolsheviks defended themselves in their pillboxes in Sevastopol is akin to some animal instinct, and it would be a profound mistake to consider it the result of Bolshevik beliefs or education. Russians have always been like that, and most likely they will always be like that.


                    But I really like someone’s statement that I read on some forum. (The author’s nickname is not recorded, if anyone finds out his phrase - my deepest respect to you!)
                    Unsmiling Russians do not start wars.
                    They are started by cheerful Europeans.
                    Unsmiling Russian wars end.
                    As a rule, in European capitals.
                    And then the Russians for some time become the most smiling people.
                    Not for long.
                    Because the war is always there.
                    1. Rink
                      Rink 5 May 2013 20: 01
                      +1
                      ... And a little bit in continuation of the topic.



                2. ekama1
                  ekama1 4 May 2013 23: 33
                  -2
                  Where did you see the groaning is a sober look at things, but euphoria
                  from a successful war of 70 years ago, it is necessary to reinforce in today's conditions. The error of Hitler and his ilk is underestimated
                  enemy. And evaluate Let's really evaluate, nivaproz!
                  Exactly on the list, the failed campaigns excluding Vietnam, but we still pay tribute to Chechnya. You have to be prepared, not shout that we will defeat everyone, you can feel the difference. Scream is like a woman
      2. Andrey57
        Andrey57 4 May 2013 21: 24
        +3
        They will steam up the dust to swallow, while we lose any war !!! They will never wait !!! Here on the next branch there was a video about our peacekeepers in Serbia, and so there a man was talking about the "valiant" JI, they threw their wounded and disappeared during the shelling by the Albanians, and ours and the Albanians drove them away and pulled their wounded out of the shelling, pitifully late found - Amer died in a helicopter, so such "warriors" can only kill children and women from the air, nothing else ... They brought up one more fact, organized a competition between all contingents of peacekeepers, so our airborne assault across the mountains for 30 km came to finish with a margin of more than half an hour, and so. Yes, the Pskov paratroopers, the sixth company, showed how the Russians are fighting, the Chechens themselves admitted that after that battle they were completely demoralized ... that's putting it mildly!
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 4 May 2013 11: 15
    +3
    Our Army is a victorious army, no doubt! Remember all the great battles, our army drove the Nazis first in our country, and then in the countries of ingloriously surrendered allies! We won not by number, but by skill, and this is a fact, and it's silly to argue with that!
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 16
      -8
      The fact that we won not by number is not a fact, but misinformation. Read even Soviet school textbooks and immediately understand your mistake. In all the great battles of the Second World War (except the Moscow) that we won, our army had superiority over the enemy in terms of the most important indicators.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 5 May 2013 16: 38
        +1
        Quote: yurta2013
        The fact that we won not by number is not a fact, but misinformation. Read even Soviet school textbooks and immediately understand your mistake. In all the great battles of the Second World War (except the Moscow) that we won, our army had superiority over the enemy in terms of the most important indicators.

        The USSR was inferior in population to the Third Reich with its allies by more than one and a half times. It is a fact. so we won the war precisely by reduction, not by number. Well, to achieve numerical superiority in a certain area is a strategy, a tactic, this suggests that our commanders were better.
        1. воронов
          воронов 7 May 2013 00: 07
          +1
          Quote: Setrac
          to achieve numerical superiority in a certain area is a strategy, tactics,

          So all the same, "to achieve numerical superiority in a certain area", is it a strategy or a tactic? Do you even see the difference between these two concepts, or is it just a play on words for you, a keyboard "strategist"? laughing
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 7 May 2013 00: 30
            0
            Quote: voronov
            So all the same, "to achieve numerical superiority in a certain area", is it a strategy or a tactic? Do you even see the difference between these two concepts, or is it just a play on words for you, a keyboard "strategist"?

            It’s rather the vagueness of the terms, not my fault that the two terms are to a certain extent interchangeable. I will draw your attention to a certain degree, "otherwise you will again catch me at my word. As a non-specialist, I did not receive a military response from you.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. воронов
              воронов 7 May 2013 20: 32
              0
              Quote: Setrac
              You will catch me on the word again.

              And you don’t need to catch, and it’s so clear that you do not understand the terms strategy and tactics
        2. yurta2013
          yurta2013 7 May 2013 04: 03
          -2
          Well, list these German allies who participated in the war in dreams. Finland (which, after reaching the old border, ceased active operations), Hungary and Romania - not a lot for one and a half superiority over the USSR. Italy sent only one corps, Spain was going to send a division. Our enemy had numerical superiority only at the very beginning of the war, before our mobilization.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 54
            0
            And so the Third Reich and its allies (do not take the east): France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal (not sure), Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Sweden, Austria, the Baltic states , Poland and Yugoslavia (to a small extent participated in the economy of the Third Reich).
            Is it enough?
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 28
              0
              Where did you study? Deuce to your teachers for work. The Netherlands, Northern France, Denmark, Norway, the Czech Republic, Austria, Poland and Yugoslavia were occupied by Germany and its allies by the time of the attack on the USSR. Sweden and Switzerland were neutral states. Bulgaria, Portugal and southern France did not send troops against the USSR. Spain has allocated only one division for this. Italy - the corps (later one army). The participation of Slovakia was generally purely symbolic. Remain Finland, Romania and Hungary. That's all the allies.
          2. Alex
            Alex 29 August 2013 16: 40
            +2
            Quote: yurta2013
            Spain was about to send a division.

            And she sent. "Blue" (this is by name, not by orientation). Consisted of 4 infantry and one artillery regiment. The number for July 1941 was 18 people.

            I don’t know how many Magyars there were, but I think you can find them. True, the Romanians were still those warriors in the south of Ukraine and had to bother with them; in general, they also did not look at the picnic.

            Now about the time frame. The mobilization resource of the USSR turned out to be more than that of Germany and its allies (by the way, the fact that they turned out to be so flimsy is also a sign of Hitler's foresight), the leadership of the Red Army was able to competently dispose of them (during the operation "Bagration" they did not climb on machine guns, but walked around the swamps - smart Germans did not even think about such "treachery"). And what do you think, one hero was supposed to lay down the entire Wehrmacht army? Let me remind you that Ilya Muromets also had two associates.
          3. nov_tech.vrn
            nov_tech.vrn 29 August 2013 16: 50
            0
            Who edited your sources, Dr. Goebbels?
      2. Alex
        Alex 29 August 2013 16: 27
        +2
        Quote: yurta2013
        In all the great battles of the Second World War (except the Moscow) that we won, our army had superiority over the enemy in terms of the most important indicators.


        I’m wondering if you’re not really familiar with the basics of military affairs, or you are just so diligently pretending. The creation of a numerical and qualitative superiority over the enemy before the offensive, the organization of powerful strike groups, the striking in the weakest point of the enemy's combat formations, the creation of reserves - all these are elementary truths, and the ability to apply them in practice is precisely the ART and ABILITY to fight. Near Kursk, the Germans were just trying to solve all the problems with a simple and ingenuous ramming strike (sorry, two strikes). And they were surprised to find that Rokossovsky and Vatutin could no longer be fooled by this old chaff. And after that the question: so what, their gloomy Teutonic genius came up with something new, original, unconventional, modern ... Nothing. As we walked like a "pig", everything remained at this level. Only instead of knights - tanks, instead of bollards - panzer-grenadiers. But the traitors remained the same.
  • Dart weyder
    Dart weyder 4 May 2013 11: 15
    +5
    in my opinion, for those to whom the answer is not obvious - there is Western Europe and a few Eastern witnesses - Germans, Romanians, and others who fought for the Nazis, Samurai, and the Wide-format Chinese comrades in Damansky, the USA and NATO - no matter how aggressive the rhetoric they bred , and they didn’t develop attack plans - but it was too much for them - for they understood what would happen to them .... What difference does it make - Red, White, Imperial - they beat the adversary and that’s it ...
  • Enot-poloskun
    Enot-poloskun 4 May 2013 11: 22
    +8
    I knew how. And there’s nothing to think about!

    The German Wehrmacht and the Kwantung Army understood this for themselves.

    And you are stupid ... Well, stupid! (with).

    They still think that the Korean and Vietnamese pilots Li Xi Tsun are three different people of Chinese nationality)))
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 4 May 2013 11: 24
    +8
    G-d recently the President of Russia and Putin awarded Dr. Aron Schneer of the Jerusalem Museum "Yad Vashem" for the book "Captivity". Initially, this was supposed to be one of the many studies of the "Catastrophe", but in the course of the work, Schneer came across a lot of previously unpublished documents on prisoners of war. They served as the leitmotif of the book. After reading it, you have a lump in your throat and you realize that the Wehrmacht is as much a criminal bastard as the "SS". The book is easily accessible through Google. Maybe some will be annoyed by too much attention to the Jewish topic, but their own sore is the most painful, as they say. You can skip these chapters. But I highly recommend it. In principle, the book is not big.
    1. smile
      smile 4 May 2013 15: 14
      +6
      Aaron Zawi
      Thanks!. It would be strange if the Jews, describing the War, missed the "Jewish theme", so everything is fine.
      And about the Wehrmacht - that's right. ... now they are falling off - this is not us, this is the SS, they are yelling - this is not us, this is the black SS. Those are not us, these are formations of collaborators. Balts and Bandera - yes we finally sculpted for freedom ... a vicious circle ... and to all of them, without exception, a place at one wall, without any differences ...
    2. Azzzwer
      Azzzwer 6 May 2013 01: 43
      0
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      After reading it, you have a lump in your throat and you realize that the Wehrmacht is as much a criminal bastard as the "SS".
      Do you, dear, doubt the criminality of the western path of civilization? Nazism is the quintessence of the development of capitalism
  • sichevik
    sichevik 4 May 2013 11: 33
    +8
    I'm tired of this liberoid nonsense of all the Solzhenitsyn, Rezun, Svinidze and the like ...
    If our grandfathers and fathers did not know how to fight, then there would be no Great Victory.
    Over what period of time did Hitler bring the geyropu to its knees (in other words, this community does not turn the language)? Yes, the Brest Fortress held the defense longer than France and Poland combined.
    Did the Germans have less casualties? And why do not they remember the Romanians, Italians, Spaniards, Magyars, Czechs, Norwegians, Finns, all the Baltic states there - all those who fought on the side of Hitler?
    Why don't they remember that Hitler worked the entire industry of geyropov?
    And if our soldiers had committed atrocities in the occupied territories as well as the Nazis, then they would have had more losses than ours.
    And if someone again doubts the combat effectiveness of the Russian Soldier, then we can recall again. Just let them not be offended then.
    1. Eugen
      Eugen 4 May 2013 12: 00
      +5
      Usually all the arguments of Messrs. Liberals boil down to the events of the beginning of the war. For some reason, they prefer to remain silent about the successful operations of the Red Army throughout the war, about the turning point in the war and, of course, about the very outcome of the war, or read the mantra "threw meat." Half-truths taken out of context (!) - that's all their arguments.
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 5 May 2013 19: 00
        0
        But to hide the reasons for our failures at the beginning of the war is also wrong. This is also a half-truth, which inevitably turns into a repetition of old mistakes in the present.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 5 May 2013 19: 45
          +1
          Quote: yurta2013
          But to hide the reasons for our failures at the beginning of the war is also wrong. This is also a half-truth, which inevitably turns into a repetition of old mistakes in the present.

          Those who are supposed to know the truth, and those who shout "truth" in the media, as a rule, hide anti-Russian propaganda under the "truth". Dear yurta2013, are you a traitor and are deliberately helping the enemy? Or just a dim-witted person?
          1. воронов
            воронов 7 May 2013 00: 11
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            just a short-sighted person

            Where did you come from this site, so smart and distant? laughing
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 7 May 2013 00: 31
              0
              Quote: voronov
              Where did you come from this site, so smart and distant?

              From mom and dad. I wonder how long admins will tolerate our flood?
          2. yurta2013
            yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 58
            0
            Knowing your story well does not mean helping the enemy. No need to go to the point of absurdity.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 19
              0
              Quote: yurta2013
              Knowing your story well does not mean helping the enemy. No need to go to the point of absurdity.

              But who is against it, you need to know the story. But in this particular case, a change in the history of WWII will lead to a revision of the results of the Second World War, which will benefit the enemies of Russia. So this is precisely helping the enemy.
              1. yurta2013
                yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 37
                0
                You suck the problem out of your finger. How can the recognition of the true causes of our defeats at the beginning of the war lead to a review of the results of the 2nd MV? Its result is the defeat of fascist Germany and the creation of the UN, where the victorious powers in the 2nd MV play the main role. What can be reviewed here? Do not be so gullible to Stalinist propaganda.
    2. soaring
      soaring 4 May 2013 12: 31
      +1
      I put +++ and I agree to all 100% drinks good
    3. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 16: 06
      +3
      I, too, do not doubt the combat effectiveness of a Russian soldier, provided that this soldier is well armed, trained and commanded by competent officers and generals. Unfortunately, during the Second World War, this was not always the case, and in all such cases the Germans beat us, as they say, "in the tail and in the mane," no matter how much some "leavened" cheers-patriots liked to recall it. We need to carefully and openly analyze all such cases so as not to step on the same rake in the future. It was the oblivion or ignorance of the bitter experience of the Second World War that turned into unjustifiably large losses of our guys in Grozny in 1995. Apparently, the experience of battles in Stalingrad or on the streets of Berlin did not pass in our academies.
      1. Andrey57
        Andrey57 4 May 2013 21: 48
        +2
        Yeah!!! As I remember now, there is a bureaucrat from the army in general's shoulder straps and directly into the camera declares that "they" have no experience of fighting in urban conditions !!! I was simply stunned - they brushed off half of Europe like a glass of red, thousands of cities took both their own and not theirs, and it turns out that they have not accumulated experience for this unfortunate general !!!
        1. Rider
          Rider 4 May 2013 23: 28
          +1
          you see, uv Andrey.
          for all my disrespect for the rank of MO, that pretzel told the truth.
          The fact is that even the SA fought large-scale battles in the city for the last time, it seems in Hungary.
          after even exercises on this subject were not carried out.

          so it turns out that by 95m, not only they did not know how, but in the army IN THE PRINCIPLE OF THIS, NO ONE WAS ABLE TO DO THIS.

          Of course, there were instructions and a charter.
          but even if someone was guided by it, without practice knowledge alone is not worth much.

          agree that between KNOW and KNOW, there is a certain difference.
          1. yurta2013
            yurta2013 5 May 2013 16: 10
            0
            As far as I know, the charter does not contain detailed instructions on how to fight in urban conditions. In theory, this should be studied in military schools and academies based on at least the experience of the Second World War.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 5 May 2013 16: 26
              +1
              You are incorrectly informed. There are such instructions and have always been
              1. Alex
                Alex 29 August 2013 23: 15
                +2
                Absolutely correct, combat in the city is a sub-theme of the general theme "Combat in special conditions". Accordingly, for a squad, platoon, company, etc.
            2. воронов
              воронов 7 May 2013 00: 13
              +1
              Quote: yurta2013
              As far as I know, the charter does not contain detailed instructions on how to fight in urban conditions.

              Bad charter studied my friend
              1. yurta2013
                yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 57
                0
                He served in the navy. We have our own rules there. I’ll try to learn a charter.
          2. Alex
            Alex 29 August 2013 21: 40
            +2
            At the expense of preparing for battles in the city, I probably agree. I remember my fences in Baturin. Three months of us officers were trained. They ran into all sorts of heights, ran into trenches, even didn’t regret breaking armor for us (what kind of drivers are students, you understand). They shot at everything that was in the division, then they cleaned it all of soot — you won’t wish the enemy. And so gas masks have grown together with the skin. In general, there is almost nothing to blame. But about the battle in the city, in the forest - only in words and even then run.

            I don’t know, maybe it was better in other places, but our department was not the worst.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 5 May 2013 16: 40
        +1
        Quote: yurta2013
        no matter how much it likes to remember some "leavened" cheers-patriots.

        it is better to be a kvass urapatriot than a liberal pan-pro-public.
        1. воронов
          воронов 7 May 2013 00: 15
          0
          Quote: Setrac
          than a liberal all-protector.

          And how do you relate to yourself? laughing
        2. yurta2013
          yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 55
          0
          It is enough to be just a patriot, able to adequately perceive even the uncomfortable facts of his story.
    4. yurta2013
      yurta2013 5 May 2013 19: 16
      -2
      All those who fought on the side of Hitler on the Soviet-German front made up an insignificant part of his total forces (about 20% at the beginning of the war). In addition, the Finnish army, after it entered the old state border of the USSR, practically did not conduct active military operations. Accordingly, the total losses of these countries by the killed did not exceed half a million people. This almost does not change the general ratio of losses. As for working for Hitler throughout Europe, why not remember that the military industry of the USA and Great Britain with its colonies worked for us then.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 5 May 2013 20: 03
        0
        Quote: yurta2013
        (about 20% at the beginning of the war)

        20% is not a little!
        Quote: yurta2013
        then the military industry of the USA and Great Britain with its colonies worked for us.

        This is just a lie, the military industry of the USA and Great Britain with the colonies did NOT work for us. Lendliz - a minuscule in the military production of the USSR.
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 53
          -2
          No need to repeat the propaganda of the Soviet era. Without Lend-Lease trucks, walkie-talkies, some rare metals and rare-earth additives for the production of armor and ammunition, wheat, carcasses, and much more, we could not defeat Germany in this war.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 7 May 2013 12: 59
            0
            Quote: yurta2013
            No need to repeat the propaganda of the Soviet era. Without Lend-Lease trucks, walkie-talkies, some rare metals and rare-earth additives for the production of armor and ammunition, wheat, carcasses, and much more, we could not defeat Germany in this war.

            But you are repeating Western propaganda. How would you win! Lend-Lease's share is a minuscule in the military production of the USSR.
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 11 May 2013 14: 40
              0
              Do not confuse the truth with Western propaganda. By the way, judging by your previous comment, it is you who are ready to lie on the basis of someone’s propaganda goals.
          2. Alex
            Alex 29 August 2013 23: 32
            +2
            Quote: yurta2013
            No need to repeat the propaganda of the Soviet era. Without Lend-Lease trucks, walkie-talkies, some rare metals and rare-earth additives for the production of armor and ammunition, wheat, carcasses, and much more, we could not defeat Germany in this war.

            Not my method, so answer, but I can not otherwise.
            It is not necessary, dear friend, to repeat the propaganda of the current objectors. There were no REE additives in the armor at that time (and even now they are a great rarity. Mctallurgy of REE is still a gem, for small amounts of special steel it is suitable, for large-scale continuous production I do not envy the technologists). As for the armor ... Not from a good life (and of course, from the "supply of rare earth metals" there was even a temporary permission to replace the special steel on the T-34 with a hardened boiler room.

            Wheat, stew, BB - all this was, of course, and thanks for their deliveries (it would have been free, the bow would have been low), but without them Hitler’s neck would have been broken. Just the price, of course, would be higher.

            Anyway, at the expense of the allies' help. Does anyone really think that a human in common sense will refuse to help in the struggle? The British and Americans, who were in uniforms - they are people too, and many of them sincerely fought and respected our fighters for courage and heroism (and this is not a propaganda cliché). And the fact that the Trumans and the Churchils exchanged soldiers' friendship for geopolitical ambitions and the current scribblers began to speculate on those supplies, saying that "without Lend-Lease the USSR would not have won the war" - it is just from impotence and envy. And it is not worth repeating these fabrications, the right word, you will look smarter.
      2. Alex
        Alex 29 August 2013 23: 19
        +2
        Quote: yurta2013
        As for working for Hitler throughout Europe, why not remember that the military industry of the USA and Great Britain with its colonies worked for us then.

        Yeah, and only on us sick. Yes, the United States did not even notice that something was falling off from them. But they didn’t take advantage of it.
  • castle
    castle 4 May 2013 12: 06
    -8
    And again, as in the good old days, TOT who disagrees with the opinion of a comrade who scooped up his knowledge of Werlick Patriotic War from books from the time of the Pre-Brezhnev and then Brezhnev periods, TOT works for bucks and euros. The discussion at this level is either intimidation of the opponent or evidence of a lack of arguments, or evidence that emotions take precedence over common sense.
    Ask a soldier who took Berlin? The real war veterans have already had 86 years. They do not go to forums. And what did they say before? Are you sure that there was a certain censorship by the authorities? Tales to tell the authorities were able to do so! Both Western and USSR.
    It must also be remembered that that war began much earlier than June 22, 1941. Before Hitler Germany attacked the Stalinist USSR. Germany fought in western Europe, in northern Africa and in the Balkans. And everywhere in these places Germany contained a significant number of its troops. Maybe for some of you it will be a revelation, but partisan detachments were created in all countries occupied by Germany. These detachments, very often did not stand on the positions of communist ideology, they just had to beat the Nazis. And constantly, until the end of the war, these detachments distracted parts of the Heman army.
    We must not forget that in 1940 the British Royal Air Force dropped 10 tons of bombs on German industrial enterprises and enterprises and cities of the German allies. The United States Air Force later joined them. 000 - 1941 tons, 30 - 000 tons, 1942 - 40 tons, 000 - 1943 tons, 120 - 000 tons. Do you really think that all this did not help the USSR in battles with the German occupiers? I'm not talking about the Lend-Lease, who recently in Russia, they are generally trying to shut up or distort, supposedly there was only harm from him.
    And Germany's "sudden" attack on the USSR was not at all "sudden" for the top leadership of the USSR. The tale of "surprise" is a fairy tale for subjects, no matter what they murmur. In general, I think there is nothing to constantly pull the blanket over yourself. In the war against Hitler, everyone who fought against him won. Everyone who, according to their abilities, has put a hand in the matter, honor and praise. And thanks to everyone.
    1. lelikas
      lelikas 4 May 2013 13: 03
      +5
      Quote: hrad
      And again, as in the good old days ,,,,,

      People change, times remain. The article compared military losses, but you again start the hurdy-gurdy "The elephant is good, the certificate is bad."

      Only for some reason, the Allies did not bomb those factories of which they were shareholders, and even managed to trade with ease through front companies.

      Nobody especially hid the number of Lend-Lease deliveries, but they didn’t shout about them at every step - the allies out there won the war themselves.

      Of course, everyone won, only according to the opinion of our former allies - some are white and fluffy - and some poured all their own and other people's blood, raped everyone in a row without knowing their gender and age, and in general their holiday and symbolism should be banned.

      Draw conclusions.
      1. castle
        castle 4 May 2013 13: 55
        10 th
        Please, please tell us the name of a serious western publication and the name of the author of this publication, in which the role of the Soviet army in defeating Hitlerite Germany or a serious western publication in which the Soviet army would be poured mud would be considered. Usually there are dry facts. Some of them can be unpleasant, of course. And do not give the names of publications that were written during the height of the Cold War by court authors on political orders. There were enough of these in the USSR. Such custom publications in serious circles do not discuss at all. And the people in Western countries no longer think about that war. There are other everyday worries. But certain celebrations regarding the events of that war still persist.
        And to the losses. I personally have the impression that no one will ever know the more or less exact amount of combat losses on the side of the USSR. Some circles would be very unprofitable.
        Draw conclusions.
        1. Colonel
          Colonel 4 May 2013 16: 10
          +2
          Please tell us the name of a serious Western publication and the name of the author of this publication, in which the role of the Soviet army would be posed
          I report "Lost Victories" by Erich von Manstein. After reading the book, one gets the impression that the Allies and A. Hitler are to blame for the defeat of Germany (I emphasize, not in the outbreak of war, but in the defeat), with the Soviet army's possible participation. You can't tell the whole book, but what is at least this pearl worth: "Operation Citadel was terminated by the German High Command (This Manstein wrote an adjective with a capital letter) even before the outcome of the battle for the following reasons: firstly, due to the strategic influence of other theaters of military operations (the Mediterranean Sea) or other fronts ..., and only secondly, due to a tactical failure ..... "Not I really know how serious you think this author is. Quite a long time ago, in a dispute on a similar topic with your colleague, I referred to the book by E. Beevor "Stalingrad" and was, in this regard, caught in ignorance of the Western book market. if Beevor is not read in the west, tell me about Manstein too.
          1. rexby63
            rexby63 4 May 2013 19: 12
            +2
            I recently read Mellenthin Friedrich Wilhelm, which is background. So he speaks rather restrainedly about the allegedly fatal consequences of the Allied landing in Sicily. If by July 9, 1943, Manstein had succeeded (let the Westerners digress from Prokhorovka and focus on the actions of Katukov, Chistyakov and the entire Central Front under the command of Rokossovsky), then it seems to me that he did everything to continue the operation. " Citadel". And so a good excuse
          2. yurta2013
            yurta2013 5 May 2013 18: 56
            -2
            In this case, Manstein did not mean "exaggerating the role of the Soviet army" in the war, but "exaggerating" precisely its ability to fight, which is not the same thing. All former German generals in their memoirs attributed the victories of the Soviet army almost exclusively to their numerical superiority or difficult natural conditions. Manstein is no exception.
        2. lelikas
          lelikas 4 May 2013 18: 32
          +4
          World history textbook for 7th grade. Prentice Hall. History of Our World 2007 (Prentice Hall. History of Our World, 2007). On page 623 (section 4, Chapter 21), only one paragraph is devoted to the course of the war in 1943-45 in Europe. Here it is in full:

          “Victory in Europe. Following companies in North Africa and Italy, the Allies opened up the western front against weakened Germans. 6 June 1944 Allied ships with 156 000 soldiers aboard landed in Normandy, the north coast of France. Known as D-Day, the landing in Normandy was the beginning of a massive Allied march to the east. Six months later, the Allied armies reached Germany. After the last attempt to achieve success in December 1944, known as the Battle of the Ardennes, the German army was crushed. Allies declared victory in Europe 8 May 1945. "
        3. Alex
          Alex 29 August 2013 23: 41
          +2
          Quote:
          Please, please tell us the name of a serious western publication and the name of the author of this publication, in which the role of the Soviet army in defeating Hitler Germany or the serious western publication in which the Soviet army would be poured mud would be touched upon.


          Discovery Channel, please. When they talk about the war, you cry.

          I remember that in 1993, one Amerov doctor of chemical sciences came to our institute, a large specialist (well, they have it there in America, we were just attracting a laboratory assistant). I heard that my children and I were going to the third line of defense of Kiev in Mrygi for the weekend, asked for it with us. So he was shocked when he saw those disastrous remnants of the bunkers. A man was seeing when he learned about the battles of 1941. I don’t even know, he didn’t have an inferiority complex after three months of work? And then his psychoanalyst would get rich.
    2. Gur
      Gur 4 May 2013 13: 45
      +3
      For us (Stalinist USSR - if so, please have respect and write with a capital letter) the war began on June 22, 1941, what you call a war in Europe can of course be called that, there are countries for which it was really a tragedy, but not a war. as in the USSR about the "Patriotic War" I have not heard anywhere. What significant military units are you talking about? Except in the Balkans, the rest of Europe was guarded only by police formations and army units stationed at permanent deployment. The fact that England and the United States bombed, however, only those industrial areas that were predominantly eastern lands, so moreover now these barbaric bombings (Dresden) Western historians attribute the USSR, and moreover, they also condemn it for obvious unnecessary. No one belittles the value of Lend-Lease, but we paid for it in full. And we will rightfully pull the blanket over ourselves, according to the idea that you are pulling it over yourself, to justify the fact that most of Europe in a week's time simply resignedly fell under Hitler and, moreover, fought on the side of Germany and produced equipment for her. And about the fact that everyone who fought against Hitler won in the war against him, and this cannot be taken away from them, I agree with you.
      1. castle
        castle 4 May 2013 14: 00
        -5
        If I am not mistaken, the adjective name is written with a small letter. So taught at school. Write where, in which publication, the bombing of Dresden is attributed to the USSR
        1. Gur
          Gur 4 May 2013 14: 29
          +4
          And you go to Dresden and sign up for a historical tour of the city, there the guide will tell you without any examples.
          1. castle
            castle 4 May 2013 14: 40
            -2
            Tourists from all over the world are told, and in all encyclopedias and textbooks it is said that Dresden was bombed by RAF and USAF, and they told you, for some reason, that this was the work of the USSR? Do not take Schnapps with beer before the tour! Anyway - Hitler sowed the wind and shook what he sowed.
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 20: 53
          +5
          Quote: hrad
          Write where, in which publication, the bombing of Dresden is attributed to the USSR

          How strange everything is with you, it’s launched right away ...
          The question is that both RAF and USAF bombed densely populated quarters large cities, where several hundred thousand civilians, non-combatants, were killed (burned alive and died by suffocation), about which the allied command was well informed. Which was then repeated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
          Well, and with an eye on your ensign, I will ask questions:
          1. How many Czechs sat at the arms of the Panzervaffen clutches? They were forcibly driven there?
          2. What preceded the Lidice tragedy? Why did the British Mi-5 send saboteurs to physically destroy the chapter protectorate (not governorship, and not occupied territories) Czech Republic and Bohemia?
          1. Rider
            Rider 4 May 2013 23: 40
            +4
            Quote: stalkerwalker
            Well, and with an eye on your ensign, I will ask questions


            I have one joke, for such warlike lovers to wave their fists after a fight.

            These are they glorious Czech warriors

            Soviet tour near the fortress which was defended by Czech soldiers in 38g.

            On the wall there is a sign with the inscription "In this fortress during the defense against the Wehrmacht, a garrison donkey died" A tourist from the USSR asks how many Czech soldiers died during the defense. To which the guide replies that after seeing the fate of the donkey, the garrison preferred to surrender.


            But seriously, let the dear Czech find out that even for the attempt on Heydrich, he had to send sabotage from England.
            Yes, they were Czechs, but still FROM ENGLAND.

            and let him take an interest when the Czechs sent the last echelon with armored vehicles for the Wehrmacht.

            Well, here I dig a little article: http://oko-planet.su/spravka/spravkamir/183047-gde-prolegaet-gran-mezhdu-evropey
            cami-i-russkimi.html
            1. Rider
              Rider 4 May 2013 23: 45
              +1
              oops.

              the answer was for the Czech, of course.
    3. erased
      erased 4 May 2013 13: 48
      +1
      ... In the war against Hitler, everyone who fought against him won. To everyone who according to his abilities put a hand to work, honor and praise. And thank you all ...

      And sho? What is the conclusion?
    4. skeptic
      skeptic 4 May 2013 14: 30
      +5
      Quote: hrad
      Germany fought in western Europe, in northern Africa and in the Balkans. And everywhere in these places Germany contained a significant number of its troops.


      Well, who argues with this. And in the USSR, they just went for a walk.
      If such a booze started, the USSR was forced to keep significant forces on the borders with Turkey and Japan, as against Germany's allies. Troops fought in Russia, practically from all countries of Western Europe. By the way, units of the ROA, Italians and the like fought in the Balkans. In general, in the western direction, at first the "Hitler Youth" flanked the allies.
    5. skeptic
      skeptic 4 May 2013 15: 09
      +2
      Quote: hrad
      Ask a soldier who took Berlin? The real war veterans have already had 86 years. They do not go to forums. And what did they say before? Are you sure that there was a certain censorship by the authorities?


      Already imagine - sitting, then a grandfather, a veteran, tells children, grandchildren, and around the censors, winding circles. Something like 7
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 5 May 2013 18: 39
        0
        Actually, articles in newspapers and magazines were written not by "grandfathers", but, as a rule, by professional journalists. At the same time, the text of a memoir or a manuscript is usually greatly reduced by them (I know from my own sad experience), that is, it is almost inevitably distorted. Not to mention the fact that everything that was published in the USSR had to necessarily correspond to the general line of the party, including the Stalinist history of the Second World War.
    6. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 20: 42
      +5
      Quote: hrad
      1941 year - 30 000 tons, 1942 year - 40 000 tons, 1943 year - 120 000 tons, 1944 year - 650 000 tons, 1945 year - 500 000 tons. Do you really think that all this did not help the USSR in battles with the German occupiers

      Well, you have, like a blueprint from one "super spy" - "Why did Stalin destroy strategic aviation ...".
      As there, in the saying - they bombed, bombed, and did not bomb ...
      Leningrad was bombed and fired, starved.
      And the Victory Banner was hoisted Soviet soldiers over the Reichstag.
    7. svp67
      svp67 5 May 2013 16: 46
      0
      Quote: hrad
      Maybe for some of you it will be a revelation, but partisan detachments were created in all countries occupied by Germany.
      List how many partisan detachments were created before 22 on June 1941 in Austria and Czechoslovakia?
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 4 May 2013 12: 11
    +4
    "The essence of the myth was expressed quite well in the book" Russia on the Eve of the XXI Century "(1997) Igor Bestuzhev-Lada:" ... Soviet soldiers literally barred Moscow with their bodies, and then paved the way to Berlin: nine fell dead, but the tenth killed- the same enemy soldier ... ". So in the minds of people created the ratio of losses: 1:10."
    This historian himself is stupid and inspires folly people.
    For any military, the common truth is that the part losing 30-50% l / s is not capable of performing combat missions according to destination. That is, it is actually a defeated military unit. There are no victories from such losses as the silly historian-clever theorist calls. Only defeat.
    Yes, the losses of the Red Army were huge, but the enemy was strong ...
    and tremendous archaeological work was carried out to restore the combat effectiveness of the army. And this is not only to call men (which in itself is not easy). This is not a cardboard box of tin soldiers to take out ...
    And who, after such a decline in the working-age population, restored the economy of the USSR in 10 years? Bestuzhev-Lada with Astafiev or what?
    The last writer was more fond of cracking vodka, making illegitimate children with other women, and then writing silly letters to the generals, in which to tell what stupid Marshal Zhukov and they themselves are worthless "warriors".
    1. Gari
      Gari 4 May 2013 13: 37
      +3
      "The essence of the myth was expressed quite well in the book" Russia on the Eve of the XXI Century "(1997) Igor Bestuzhev-Lada:" ... Soviet soldiers literally barred Moscow with their bodies, and then paved the way to Berlin: nine fell dead, but the tenth killed- the same enemy soldier ... ". So in the minds of people created the ratio of losses: 1:10."
      Do not know how to denigrate
      At first they stopped near Moscow, then they defeated them in Stalingrad, the Kursk Bulge and drove to the Army until Berlin, which conquered all of Europe
    2. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 15: 46
      -5
      Apparently, you did not read the memoirs of our commanders (Rokosovsky, Zhukov and others). Situations when our units lost most of their composition and still continued the struggle were everywhere. You could even say that in the first, and in the second year of the war, this was more a rule than an exception. It got to the point that the number of divisions of 6-8 thousand people began to be considered normal (full-time - about 15 thousand). Often at the front, battles of 3-4 or fewer thousand soldiers fought. As for the quick recovery of the USSR economy after the war, we must not forget the contribution to this of almost 10 million state slaves: prisoners of war and prisoners who performed the lion's share of the most difficult work.
      1. rexby63
        rexby63 5 May 2013 11: 35
        0
        almost 10 million state slaves


        Oops. Alive, Isaich, smoking-room is alive. Where do the "fireballs" come from?
        1. yurta2013
          yurta2013 5 May 2013 16: 14
          -1
          I do not quite understand, do you deny the use of labor of prisoners of war and prisoners in the national economy of the USSR? In my opinion, this is a well-known fact. Not knowing this today is a shame for an educated person.
          1. rexby63
            rexby63 5 May 2013 19: 07
            0
            I do not deny it, but the number of 10 million is a little alarming
            1. yurta2013
              yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 45
              -1
              About 2 million Germans, at least 0,5 million Japanese, more than 5 million prisoners. I agree, not 10 million, but so on.
  • vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 4 May 2013 12: 42
    +7
    I read somewhere that in the first months of the war, 4 million soldiers of the Red Army surrendered. I became interested in what was the size of all the armed forces in the USSR at the beginning of the war. I don’t remember the exact figure, but something a little more than 5 million, and this is in the entire Soviet Union, not only in the west. So it turns out that according to the one who published about 4 million prisoners, there was no one to fight. I wonder who then fought? you can list the cities and towns where the Germans suffered heavy losses for a long time, an example of which is only the Brest Fortress. So it turns out badly, we fought, very badly, but why did the Germans drape to Germany, probably missed their mother.
    1. Roll
      Roll 4 May 2013 13: 09
      0
      fellow At the beginning of the war, a lot of soldiers really surrendered. Surrounded by leadership, the dumbfounded starving, after running through the forests for two three weeks, gave up and we did not judge them. But the Germans came across the second and third echelon and fought with it. And almost the entire personnel, a huge amount of equipment was defeated and abandoned in the first weeks. Not without reason, when Hitler found out about our losses, he declared that the Red Army was defeated. For example, the Germans numbered our destroyed and abandoned tanks. From Brest to Minsk, the tanks were numbered over 500.
    2. Gari
      Gari 4 May 2013 13: 44
      +8
      Quote: vladsolo56
      I read somewhere that in the first months of the war, 4 million soldiers of the Red Army surrendered. I became interested in what was the size of all the armed forces in the USSR at the beginning of the war. I don’t remember the exact figure, but something a little more than 5 million, and this is in the entire Soviet Union, not only in the west.

      Now, you can immediately see nonsense and more
      Hitler started the war in 1941. with the Soviet Union almost on the same day that Napoleon began with Russia in 1812. (Hitler - June 22, Napoleon - June 24). Napoleon, using the feet of his soldiers, reached Moscow in 80 days and took possession of it after a stubborn battle of Borodino. Hitler, using all the latest vehicles built on the widespread use of the engine (aviation, tanks, motovoyska), approached Moscow on day 167 (from June 22 to December 6), i.e. spent twice as much time as Napoleon, and did not take it.
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 4 May 2013 15: 34
        -1
        It is ridiculous to compare the timing of military operations in the early 19th and mid-20th centuries. At the time of Napoleon, the concept of "frontal war" did not yet exist. This is an invention of the Russo-Japanese or even the 1st World War. The balance of forces in these wars cannot be shuttered either. In 1812, Napoleon's army was almost 2 times superior to the Russian one. Therefore, I had to retreat to Moscow. In 1941, thanks to mass mobilization, in the summer we managed not only to equal in size with the advancing enemy army, but also to surpass it. Nevertheless, Hitler still managed to reach Moscow. This happened because of our mistakes, which need to be identified and eliminated once and for all, so as not to repeat them in the future.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 20: 36
          +5
          Quote: yurta2013
          Nevertheless, Hitler still managed to get to Moscow. This happened due to our mistakes that need to be identified and fixed once and for all.

          Read, pZhalstA, "10 myths about the Second World War" by Alexei Isaev ...
          I am sure that you will be extremely interested. And useful.
          hi
          1. yurta2013
            yurta2013 5 May 2013 16: 20
            0
            I think it’s much more useful to have your head on your shoulders and be able to independently analyze the information, rather than refer to the very controversial considerations of only one author named by you.
      2. antidote
        antidote 5 May 2013 16: 34
        0
        Good comparison! Well done!
  • Roll
    Roll 4 May 2013 13: 01
    -1
    wink In my opinion, whether we knew how to fight was not quite right. The ability to fight 70 percent depends on the art of command. The command of our army, with the exception of 1943 and by 1953, was disgusting. The soldiers and technicians were normal, quite comparable with the German, but the quality of control was disgusting. Only this can explain the defeat of our troops at the beginning of the war. The same reasons remain today. The quality of command and control in the Chechen conflicts and in the operation to force Georgia to peace remained at the level of June 1945.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 4 May 2013 13: 20
      +3
      Do you have a higher military education to judge command and control?
      However, you can immediately see what is not, because you have not even heard about mobilization and evil things.
      1. Roll
        Roll 4 May 2013 13: 41
        0
        am And you have a military education. In order to objectively judge, it is enough to know the result and facts. Here's how you evaluate the quality of command and control of our troops in the first Chechen and Georgian companies according to a five-point system. How to estimate the losses of the Maykop brigade? What is your grade?
        1. Roll
          Roll 4 May 2013 13: 51
          0
          am As for the start of the war, where the leadership was at the level, the Germans were beaten there. For example, the corps led by Vatutin even crossed the state border and dealt a crushing blow to the fascists as part of their mission. The same can be said about Rokosovsky and many others. And where the command lost control or simply escaped, there are many such examples, the troops immediately decomposed. Here is an example from the film, the living and the dead, this is of course the movie, but where the units were commanded by Papanov and Efremov, the units fought excellently.
          1. Raven1972
            Raven1972 5 May 2013 10: 39
            -1
            Rolm, but nothing comrade. Zhukov in 41g. was the chief of the general staff? Those. command and control of all troops lay on it ... So who then turns out to be shitty in charge? How to explain the fact that the Chief of the General Staff does not know where the troops are and has no connection with them? Huh? And to give a movie as an example - well, that’s already ********* No words ...
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 4 May 2013 14: 21
          +5
          Quote: Rolm
          How to estimate the losses of the Maykop brigade?

          A thousand times already written on this topic ...
          “He that has ears, let him hear,” but they do not hear.
          Knowing the "result and facts" answer for yourself the questions:
          1. Was there a so-called Maykop brigade ?.
          (there wasn’t, the brigade was 8,5 thousand w / c, there was a combined detachment, with pine forest, 300 people)
          2. Was the task set to master the assault on the city of Grozny?
          (No. The necessary events for this event were not carried out. We thought that the dzhigits would run away from a show of strength, well, maybe a couple of times we’ll have to shoot)
          3. Did the Russian army maintain a high
          fighting efficiency after the collapse of the USSR?
          (No, not saved)
          4. What kind of personality "ruled" then the Russian Federation?
          (EBN, BAB, Pasha-Mercedes, etc., etc.)
          Good facts to you? Have the results become clear?
          1. Roll
            Roll 5 May 2013 10: 14
            +1
            For reference, Pasha Mercedes namely Grachev was an excellent combat officer and fought in Afghanistan competently.
    2. skeptic
      skeptic 4 May 2013 14: 52
      +5
      Quote: Rolm
      wink In my opinion, whether we knew how to fight was not quite right. The ability to fight 70 percent depends on the art of command. The command of our army, with the exception of 1943 and by 1953, was disgusting.


      Damn it. And I thought that Zhukov in 1939 near Khalkhin Gol defeated the Japanese thanks to the art of management. It turns out just foolish.
      1. Roll
        Roll 5 May 2013 10: 17
        -1
        angry And why didn’t they smash the Japanese before Zhukov, and how many officers Zhukov shot in order to liquidate the mess.
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 5 May 2013 10: 28
          -1
          Actually, Rolm in 38m to the Japanese on Hassan was tapped well without Zhukov)))) History needs to be taught at least sometimes)))
    3. Volkhov
      Volkhov 4 May 2013 15: 11
      11 th
      The question is generally deeper - the Red Army is a specialist in pacifying the peasants, hence the basis of the "police" tactics - movement in columns to a given point.
      And as soon as the enemy - not the peasants, the columns are defeated - in Finnish, in 41, in Grozny, even Georgians were noted once. The exceptions are the Japanese at 1 (there was a decision to surrender). In order for the army to pacify its peasants, the most stupid citizens are called in to it, and those who ask uncomfortable questions are weeded out with medical measures. It turns out a herd of lumpen with a stupid leadership, such a team rejects random wiseacres ... and then the war and the herd are exterminated by a more intelligent opponent, the smart ones survive more often and the level of control grows, then the peace period and all over again.
      For example, with the help of the SA, the Syrians were smashed in a week, and without help they fight 2 years against the whole world and win - Israel has already started direct bombing to help its settlers, without this it does not work.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 4 May 2013 15: 13
        +1
        Quote: Volkhov
        The question is generally deeper - the Red Army is a specialist in pacifying the peasants, hence the basis of the "police" tactics - movement in columns to a given point.

        In fact, ALL armies in the world use this tactic.
        1. Volkhov
          Volkhov 4 May 2013 15: 29
          0
          ALL armies first ensure traffic safety from the flanks and from the front, and a unique army just rides (Finland, 41, Afghanistan, Chechnya). This is not treated and is repeated with full awareness of the consequences.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 4 May 2013 20: 22
            +1
            Where did you get this from? If you "ensure the safety of traffic from the flanks and in front" no war can be won. On the open flanks, the whole blitzkrieg theory was held. Also say that she was "pacification of the peasants"
            1. Volkhov
              Volkhov 4 May 2013 22: 58
              -1
              Quote: Spade
              On the open flanks, the whole blitzkrieg theory was held

              On the open flanks were kept the surroundings of 2 Shock, 33 and many other parts and formations.
              With successful operations, the flanks are covered - either by intelligence, which knows that there is no one there, or by aviation, or something else. It was about the custom of driving convoys into ambushes in Finland, Afghanistan, and Chechnya. There really is something with heads, and most of them are some kind of peacetime pattern.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 4 May 2013 23: 44
                +1
                And also the Stalingrad operation, "boilers" near Korsun-Shevchenkovsky, Kamenets-Podolsk, Bobruisk, Vitebsk, Minsk, Brest ...
                Well, as a final chord, the Halb "cauldron" near Berlin with 200 thousand Germans inside.

                In our second Chechen division, not a single person was lost during the movement of the columns.
                1. Volkhov
                  Volkhov 5 May 2013 00: 59
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  In our second Chechen division, not a single person was lost during the movement of the columns.

                  It means that you have smart or lucky people in the division, but this is not always the case in the whole army.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 5 May 2013 01: 06
                    0
                    They just did everything as expected.

                    In modern conditions, there is no alternative to the columns. With existing intelligence tools to step out of direct contact is suicide.
                    1. Volkhov
                      Volkhov 5 May 2013 10: 18
                      0
                      It’s not about that, so as not to travel in columns, but about the preparation and protection of the route.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 5 May 2013 10: 51
                        +1
                        How do you imagine this?
                        "Guys, don't worry, we're just preparing the route. We'll be attacking you in a week. Don't pay any attention to us."
                      2. воронов
                        воронов 6 May 2013 00: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Volkhov
                        It’s not about that, so as not to travel in columns, but about the preparation and protection of the route.

                        Naturally, military guarding and air cover of the columns is an important thing, but reconnaissance of the route is no less important
                  2. воронов
                    воронов 6 May 2013 00: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Volkhov
                    So you have smart or lucky people in the division,

                    And very careful laughing
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 6 May 2013 00: 15
                      +1
                      That is yes. For example, at our deputy. the regiment commander, who, in fact, was in the region and taxied, this was the fourth war. The 19th division is not for you khukh-mukhra.
                2. воронов
                  воронов 5 May 2013 23: 59
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  In our second Chechen division, not a single person was lost during the movement of the columns.

                  I believe if you still moved in columns at the end of 2000. along the highway along the railway from Chernokozov to Khankala, with tank escort, and with air cover. laughing
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 6 May 2013 00: 10
                    +1
                    It only happened on the plain. And infrequently. And so, first the reconnaissance sets up infantry "blocks", then passes the headquarters with artillery and rear, the infantry is removed as it passes. We reach the last block and the cycle starts again.
                    Rear - with accompaniment. Not a tank. But the armor is one for three cargo. Plus, the infantry in especially suspicious places, they did not really hope for VV blocks. Helicopters every other time, we are not some kind of central supply, or "special forces of the Ministry of Emergency Situations"

                    They visited Khankala once, the first conclusion. Loaded onto platforms, drove through Mozdok. The stupidest general whim, we would have come to the RPM much faster ourselves.
                    1. воронов
                      воронов 7 May 2013 01: 01
                      0
                      Due to the specifics of the service, I more and more in the "Czech Republic", especially in the second, moved on a service UAZ. But what could I do? My superiors are happy from Moscow on special communications on Aurora, they demand a result, you will not wait for some kind of military convoy, what would to join her until she gets ready, so my boss in the state of Moscau is good ... but he'll do it. So I load into the 469th, I put 2 special forces in the back, all of them naturally have machine guns, not to mention the PM, the specialists also have the PKK and a couple of "Granikov", unloading to the eyeballs packed with shops, F-1, RGD and drove off, sometimes I took another UAZ by analogy, only there are 3 specialists, one in front, 2 behind, but no more, so as not to shine. In early spring and late autumn, it was generally okay to ride, the view was good, they were more careful about the police and military units, they could have shied away from the PKK, or even from a large-caliber one, especially in the evening, late in the evening and at night they certainly did not go, this is tantamount to It was hard to run around when the greenery began, and of course all summer and autumn ki until October. During this period, the spirits crept to the roads, mined, set up ambushes, we had to fight back several times, but God had mercy, there were no two hundred among us, several, including myself. three hundredth, but not heavy, they even refused the hospital, in Khankala, at the base, our dock picked out the fragments, covered with green stuff and some other crap, poked injections in the ass, in short, he cured it, we spent another half a month with him under this brand of alcohol, while all not ... well, you know, not "cured"
      2. smile
        smile 4 May 2013 15: 30
        +5
        Volkhov
        Sir, I strongly recommend that you wear a motorcycle helmet ... constantly ... you, regularly falling from oak to asphalt, will be very useful .... and in general, get down from a tree, it's time to go to school ....
        in order to establish that the goals and objectives of the military construction of the USSR 30-40x - the suppression of non-existent peasant riots must be a very big specialist ... in catching fleas in the wool of a neighbor. :))))
        1. Volkhov
          Volkhov 4 May 2013 16: 06
          -3
          Helmet, fleas ... There is a discussion about military thought, as it is, and you confirm that military and thought are two incompatible things.
          1. smile
            smile 4 May 2013 20: 40
            +4
            Volkhov
            Excuse me, but fleas and helmets are perhaps closer to you .... your reasoning can amuse - you personally do not irritate me, on the contrary, you sharply raise the mood :))) The phrase "There is a discussion about military thought, "..you and the military thought? ... have not laughed so much for a long time - since you spoke with a blue eye about the use of nuclear weapons by the Germans, you told a terrible secret about how the Nazis are hiding either on the moon or inside Antarctica - sorry, I don't remember exactly ... :))))
            I’m not a military man, calm down ... and don’t touch our warrior - it will not be funny anymore ...
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 24
              +7
              Quote: smile
              the use of nuclear weapons by the Germans, they told a terrible secret about how the Nazis are hiding either on the moon or inside Antarctica - sorry, I don’t remember ... :)))))

              What a fly plaque!
              How did I miss such a circus?
              What didn’t the comrade announce?
              laughing
              1. smile
                smile 4 May 2013 21: 40
                +3
                stalkerwalke
                Hello!!!
                If you want a circus - poke it - it is very responsive - it will immediately broadcast ... :))) My favorite topic is that the fourth Reich defeated us, Hitler from the hut leads the destruction of Russia - well, something like that - I can’t finish reading it every time and remember, because in the middle of another masterpiece with a gnaw I fall under the table! :)))) Moreover, apparently, he sincerely believes in this.
                Volkhov, do not be offended, but you are really funny ... and you should not be mad at you, because, unlike liberoid propaganda, your cool ideas do no harm ...
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 43
                  +4
                  Good evening smile!
                  Thank you!
                  Good evening to you and Happy Easter!
      3. antidote
        antidote 5 May 2013 16: 39
        0
        only for some reason, all of our wars were defeated, and YOURS lost. And when was the Red Army at war with the peasants (Exclusion of the army under the leadership of the so-beloved liberals of Tukhlochny)?
      4. yurta2013
        yurta2013 5 May 2013 18: 28
        0
        In fact, the defeat of the columns is only due to their poor conservation. This really happened. As for the deliberate appeal of the most stupid citizens, this very statement is stupidity. And peasant uprisings, especially during revolutions and civil wars, crushed all armies at all times. There is no other way to save the regime in such circumstances.
        1. воронов
          воронов 6 May 2013 00: 13
          0
          Quote: yurta2013
          In fact, the defeat of the columns is only due to their poor conservation.

          And also disgusting intelligence of the route of movement
    4. vladsolo56
      vladsolo56 4 May 2013 15: 16
      +4
      Yes, here it will not agree will not work, we have always had enough "commanders". Shoulder straps gold pants with stripes, everything is there, but there is no mind. And ordinary soldiers and junior officers took the rap for all this.
    5. yurta2013
      yurta2013 4 May 2013 15: 17
      -2
      The art of governance really plays a huge role in the war, and indeed, wherever more than two people must act in concert. It is unclear only by what criteria you distinguish the quality of management before and after the beginning of 1943. Our army suffered heavy defeats in 1943. It is also unclear how the quality of command could be disgusting if the officers were perfectly normal. The fact of the matter is that the quality of the officers of our army on the eve of the war was very low compared to the German one, for quite objective reasons: huge losses from the repressions of 1937-38. and a sharp, almost 2-fold increase in the size of the army in the last 3-4 years before the war. We simply had nowhere to get competent, well-trained officers. With military experience, there were only a few among them.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 00
        +5
        Quote: yurta2013
        that the quality of the officers of our army on the eve of the war was very low compared to the German one, for quite objective reasons: huge losses from the repressions of 1937-38

        Goods-and-and-look !!!!!
        Well, I just can’t get past your Nika - learn materiel....
        The forum users are not just tired of such statements, they don’t even want to watch anymore.
        laughing
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 4 May 2013 21: 03
          -1
          Can you refute this?
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 25
            +4
            Quote: Spade
            Can you refute this?

            Is this crap true a priori?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 4 May 2013 22: 35
              -2
              I do not know. Maybe you have some arguments?

              And then the grandfather said that until the end of the war, German commanders from the battalion and below were better prepared. And he ended the war as a major. I believe he is inclined
              1. Rider
                Rider 5 May 2013 00: 10
                +3
                Quote: Spade


                And then the grandfather said that until the end of the war, German commanders from the battalion and below were better prepared.


                read the German "broken memoirists" they all complain aloud that since the 42nd the level of training of junior and middle commanders has been steadily declining.

                THEY REALLY KILLED.

                so EXCELLENCE in training before the end of the war, this is too bold a statement.

                but I agree that at the beginning and middle of the war, the general level of leadership of the Wehrmacht was higher.

                Well, and about the repression: Let's start with the brigade commanders - 337 souls have been repressed, in other words, almost 79% of the brigade’s composition. Nightmare!
                But actually - not really. Because the figure of 337 repressed brigade commanders is a very crafty figure. And that's why.
                Let's start with number one - from the brigade commander Sergey Ivanovich Abramovich, who was born on 15, was born in Belarus, was born in 1938, and was a member of the CPSU (B.). The innocently convicted brigade commander did not serve in the Red Army at all - he acted as chief of staff and chief of the 1893rd department of the West Siberian district of the NKVD troops; in other words, he was the headquarters commander of the internal troops, had nothing to do with the Red Army, and built his career exclusively on the NKVD posts.

                I do not mean that they were not there, but I can’t understand how the loss of the NKVD brigade commander affected the combat readiness of the Red Army.
                taken:http://chk.forumbb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1655
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 5 May 2013 00: 31
                  -2
                  They are justified by the incompetence of subordinates, but why should my grandfather lie? We won.

                  Repression is not so simple. The most powerful blow was dealt to personnel. Cleansing has become a means of settling scores. For example, the shot creators of Soviet rockets. Repressed on the denunciation of the chief, who decided to appropriate the laurels for himself. He himself did not become famous for anything outstanding later.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 5 May 2013 01: 08
                    +1
                    first of all, they justify their incompetence.
                    blaming YOUR flaws on the lack of education of lower officers.

                    I just wanted to say that "a week of life on the front end for Vanka platoon", somewhere from the middle of the war, became a reality for the Wehrmacht.

                    on repressions, many make the mistake of considering the repressed "great theorists" and "cool warriors"
                    just look at our illustrious marshals at the beginning of the war, and the picture will be far from joyful.
                    I DO NOT SEE THE REASONS FOR WHICH THE LITTLE AND SHOOTED COULD BE FIGHTING BETTER.

                    besides, I (personally) consider Tukhachevsky’s conspiracy to be by no means an invention.

                    according to repressed scientists:http://wwii.3dn.ru/forum/13-22-1
                    aren't you talking about this?

                    Well, here's another one:http://www.rulit.net/books/mertvaya-voda-tom-2-read-155184-97.html
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 5 May 2013 01: 25
                      -1
                      Quote: Rider
                      I DO NOT SEE THE REASONS FOR WHICH THE LITTLE AND SHOOTED COULD BE FIGHTING BETTER.

                      But I see. They had at least elementary knowledge. Some kind of experience. The commanders who came to replace them had to study in practice. Giving the lives of subordinates for this.

                      Quote: Rider
                      besides, I (personally) consider Tukhachevsky’s conspiracy to be by no means an invention.

                      May be. But the vast majority of the repressed had nothing to do with him.

                      Quote: Rider
                      according to repressed scientists: http: //wwii.3dn.ru/forum/13-22-1
                      aren't you talking about this?

                      Not about that. Korolev and Glushko suffered in the same case. Kleimenovi Langemak were shot. Kostikov "sat down" on them, and for their invention received the Hero of Socialist. labor.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 5 May 2013 01: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        But I see. They had at least elementary knowledge. Some no experience


                        as well as Zhukov Rokosovsky Vasilevsky, etc., etc.
                        the result is the Germans near Moscow.

                        But the vast majority of the repressed had nothing to do with him.


                        are you sure ?
                        You know, during the perestroika years, many people were rehabilitated, and those who could be put on the TWICE wall.

                        In the same case suffered


                        but those who have been developing "dynamo-reactive" weapons for 10 YEARS, can he also be the second Korolev?
                        or a malicious plunderer of folk remedies like Petrik?

                        and there are more than a dozen such geniuses who have shoved them all around the world, THEY ARE ALL THE QUEENS?
                        so sho with "absolute innocence and innocence" I would not rush.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 5 May 2013 02: 06
                        -1
                        Quote: Rider
                        as well as Zhukov Rokosovsky Vasilevsky, etc., etc.

                        Good morning. Rokossovsky is a Japanese and Polish spy who participated in the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Don't you know?
                        By the way, they beat him on the toes with a hammer so that he would admit it.

                        Quote: Rider
                        are you sure ?
                        You know, during the perestroika years, many people were rehabilitated, and those who could be put on the TWICE wall.

                        Rokossovsky.

                        Quote: Rider
                        but those who have been developing "dynamo-reactive" weapons for 10 YEARS, can he also be the second Korolev?
                        or a malicious plunderer of folk remedies like Petrik?

                        All of our anti-tank grenade launchers have their roots in the "dynamo-jet" pre-war developments. If RPG-7 is something like a "Petrik filter" for you, then yes, it is a plunder.
                        But excuse me, dynamo-rocket guns and rockets for "Katyusha" are somewhat different things.
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 5 May 2013 02: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        Rokossovsky is a Japanese and Polish spy who participated in the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Don't you know?


                        even as in the course, that’s why he cited it as an example.
                        you see for yourself, not even the worst Soviet military commanders, in the first period of the war looked far from brilliant.
                        so where is the guarantee that those who save during interrogations will be better?

                        Rokossovsky.


                        Tukhachevsky? and so forth?

                        All our anti-tank grenade launchers are rooted precisely in the "dynamo-jet" pre-war developments.


                        unconditionally.
                        But just how much time has passed from the idea to the implementation?
                        and fight with what?
                        tell me to wait about eleven years?

                        and so yes, yes, yes, even Da Vinci (the one still, by the way, gehenny) came up with his "flying bat"
                        and when gliders rose to the sky?

                        each vegetable has its own time.

                        here is, by the way, one shot engineer (not the worst), his automatic grenade launcher could become a very serious weapon.
                        however, read to the end.

                        http://cripo.com.ua/?sect_id=2&aid=150257

                        I mean, not everything is measured by today's standards.

                        (however, I also think that they hurried with the execution)

                        I'm taking my leave for sim
                        I will be tomorrow evening.
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 5 May 2013 02: 49
                        -1
                        Quote: Rider
                        Tukhachevsky? and so forth?

                        Do you know how it differs from Rokossovsky? They hit him on the toes with a hammer much better. An experienced investigator is caught.

                        Quote: Rider
                        unconditionally.
                        that's just a lope of time has passed from the idea to the implementation

                        Let's look at the example of the Germans. They lagged behind, but the development did not stop. By the beginning of the war, they had provided their paratroopers with recoilless guns; by the end of the war, the Panzershrek appeared.
                      5. Raven1972
                        Raven1972 5 May 2013 11: 30
                        0
                        Yes, but the Germans, unlike Tukhachevsky and Kurchinsky, did not shove and did not intend to shove the recoilless tanks, boats, planes ...
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 5 May 2013 12: 08
                        0
                        Kurchevsky. Matbaza !!!
                      7. Raven1972
                        Raven1972 5 May 2013 12: 39
                        -1
                        About the mat.base just do not get it)))) I am also a person, I may be mistaken in writing the name, so sorry hi
                        In this particular case - this is not so fundamental, the point is that if Kurchevsky brought his gun to mind as a weapon of an airborne assault or OSNAZA or maneuverable groups - he wouldn’t have a price, you look and we had our Panzer Shrek by the end of the war. .. hi
                  2. Rider
                    Rider 5 May 2013 12: 48
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    Do you know how it differs from Rokossovsky?


                    Well, in general, the KAA has already told you about Rokosovsky.
                    Well, I will give an example of how "the level" of trained commanders dropped after the repressions:Before the repression began, 29% of the top command staff had an academic education, in 1938 - 38%, in 1941 - 52%.
                    taken:http://www.theunknownwar.ru/mif_o_obezglavlivanii_armii_stalinyim.html (there are sources below)
                    and despite this Moscow 41g, and Stalingrad 42 / 43gg.

                    and about the Faustnik, you’ll excuse me, you wanted to arm the artillery of the Red Army, RPG
                    instead of anti-tank guns and howitzers?
                    really.
                    and by the way, they tried to replace conventional guns with dynamo-reactive guns, simply by increasing the powder charge (in order to preserve the range and penetration ability), there was no question of any "pocket artillery", not to mention the cumulative.
                    the only continuation in the domestic defense industry was LNG 9
                  3. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 5 May 2013 13: 32
                    0
                    He actually gave a link to the site with a lie.

                    Quote: Rider
                    and about the Faustnik, you’ll excuse me, you wanted to arm the artillery of the Red Army, RPG
                    instead of anti-tank guns and howitzers?

                    No. But pay attention: the German paratroopers had artillery in their arsenal, but ours didn’t. What losses do you think this led to?
                    By the way, what do you say about this?
                  4. Rider
                    Rider 5 May 2013 13: 48
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    He actually gave a link to the site with a lie.

                    Well, how do you like the "lowering of the level" of training of the top staff of the Red Army AFTER the repression?

                    German paratroopers had artillery in their arsenal, but ours didn’t.


                    artillery!?
                    THIS YOU CALL THE ARTILLERY !?
                    This is a melee weapon.
                    I’m not going to replace the howitzer with my mind.
                    but you exaggerate again, speaking ONLY about paratroopers.
                    how many landing operations of the Wehrmacht on the eastern front were carried out using this weapon?
                    and he didn’t play a special role, here are the Fausts, yes, but only in urban battles (distance matters)

                    but we were going to equip them with tanks and artillerymen themselves.
                    present instead of ZIS 3 - this is a miracle.

                    and by the way, what's in the photo?
                    and also below you gave a list of products prepared for production. (Langemak seems)
                    I would like a source of this awareness.
                  5. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 5 May 2013 17: 45
                    0
                    Quote: Rider
                    Well, how do you like the "lowering of the level" of training of the top staff of the Red Army AFTER the repression?

                    After reading about the convicted Rokossovsky, I did not look at anything else. The source is not trustworthy

                    Quote: Rider
                    artillery!?
                    THIS YOU CALL THE ARTILLERY !?

                    Hello, we’ve arrived. And you did not forget what is at stake?
                  6. Rider
                    Rider 5 May 2013 18: 14
                    +1
                    well you will not please
                    and such a link will suit you:http://www.e-reading-lib.org/chapter.php/1003074/43/Martirosyan_Arsen_-_100_mifo
                    v_o_Berii._Vdohnovitel_repressiy_ili_talantlivyy_organizator_1917-1941.html

                    take the trouble to go to the next page (link in the lower right corner) there is a scan to the document.


                    didn’t forget what it was all about?


                    my dear opponent, it’s you who forgot that it was an artillery, and you spun the wunderwafel that really became effective some 20 years after the war.

                    about the development of jet weapons, the Katyusha went into the series, but about the rest and is not heard.
                    I do not mind that our fighters would have a shaitan trumpet, but where to get the cumulative?
                    even the Germans launched their nonsense closer to 44g.

                    This is from the category of projections.

                    By the way, you didn’t answer what kind of prodigy it was in the photo.
            2. Roll
              Roll 5 May 2013 22: 14
              -3
              lol Here is what else I wanted to add about the repressions, for some reason not one Chatlanin except me mentioned one thing that taught the Red Army to fight and established normal command and control of the troops. This is a simple and understandable method for all Red Army men. I mean the famous order of Stalin 221. (Not a step back) and the creation of a fine baht. After these actions, the red army quickly learned to fight. I suppose if order 221 came out before the events near Kiev, the Germans did not reach Moscow.
            3. Rider
              Rider 5 May 2013 22: 34
              0
              Roll
              I mean the famous order of Stalin 221. (Not a step back)



              before you write nonsense, you would have learned.

              the order "not a step back" was number 227.
            4. воронов
              воронов 6 May 2013 00: 39
              0
              Quote: Rolm
              I mean the famous order of Stalin 221

              Dear, add 6 to the last digit of the order number, but if you are as "strong" in arithmetic as in history, then I sympathize with you laughing
    6. Kaa
      Kaa 5 May 2013 03: 54
      +3
      Quote: Spade
      Rokossovsky is a Japanese and Polish spy who participated in the Tukhachevsky conspiracy. Don't you know?
      Already tired of this myth. "At the same time, it should be noted that the repressions were not always completely unfounded. So, the future Marshal of the Soviet Union KK Rokossovsky was convicted under Article 58. What grounds were put forward? As a commander of a cavalry division in Transbaikalia, Rokossovsky ignored the warnings about the upcoming sharp change in the weather, raised the division on alarm and brought it out into the field. The cavalrymen got caught in torrential rains, and then frost struck. The horses did not have insulated saddle covers and blankets, were shod in a summer fashion. Did not have cloaks and greatcoats and a personal As a result, many horses fell ill and fell or broke their legs on the ice. There were cases of colds with fatal outcomes among the personnel of the division. The case can, of course, be qualified as criminal negligence, but in 1938 KK Rokossovsky's actions were considered sabotage ".http: //www.qwas.ru/russia/kprf/Pravda-o-repre
      ssijah-i-nevin
      nyh-zhertvah-Marshal-Rokossovskii-pered-voinoi-dopustil-prestupnuju-halatnost-i-

      otsidel-za-delo / hi
    7. Lopatov
      Lopatov 5 May 2013 10: 45
      0
      In the process of whitewashing repressions, some do not see the coast at all. By your link, a certain Ykspert slid to a direct lie. Rokossovsky was never convicted. For no article

      Let’s you not be unsubstantiated and submit a document confirming that a criminal case was opened on Rokossovsky paragraph 7 58 articles.
  • Raven1972
    Raven1972 5 May 2013 11: 35
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Rokossovsky.

    In fact, Rokossovsky didn’t need rehabilitation, as if from 41 already he commanded at the front ... So he didn’t roll an example ... And unlike many, he did not write libel on Stalin, like Golovanov, unlike Comrade . Zhukov, for example, who rewrote his memoirs 4 !!! times in accordance with the requirements of the party ...
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 12: 03
    -2
    Of course he didn't. A bad investigator, shot "witnesses" and Tymoshenko's enormous work to get Rokossovsky out of prison.

    As a result, things fell apart
  • Raven1972
    Raven1972 5 May 2013 12: 30
    +1
    Oga)))) In addition to the "shot" witnesses and the bad investigator, there are no arguments, as always .... In fact, K.K. Rokossovsky was released by order of Stalin, after his (Rokossovsky's) appeal to reconsider the case ... And Timoshenko was no sideways there ... hi
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 12: 41
    -1
    What arguments do you need?
    They were arrested, "investigated" with knocked out teeth, broken ribs and toes smashed with a hammer. Then the trial, during which evidence of his work for the Polish and Japanese intelligence was not found. As a result, he was released. Rokossovsky considered this a merit of Tymoshenko, his former boss.
    And again, no fairy tales. There was no "review of the case", since he was not convicted

    Ps Rokossovsky told his son that "they won't take me alive anymore"
  • воронов
    воронов 6 May 2013 00: 30
    0
    Quote: Spade
    By the way, they beat him on the toes with a hammer so that he would admit it.

    Did you participate in his interrogations or keep a record?
  • Alex
    Alex 30 August 2013 00: 11
    +2
    I will add one more would-be constructor - Dyrenkov. For several years he invented anything, but there was no sense. It is not known what else he would have come up with (maybe a flying-floating wheeled-tracked tank with an underwater drive or a photoshop monster like "Behemoth"), if in 1937 the firing squad hadn't stopped his art.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 5 May 2013 11: 11
    +4
    Quote: Spade
    Korolev and Glushko suffered in the same case. Kleimenovi Langemak were shot. Kostikov "sat down" them, and for their invention he received the Hero of Socialist. labor.

    Forgot K.Rokossovsky add ...
    Already wrote in another "branch":
    in the territory of the pre-war USSR, both in the European part and in the Far East, agents of foreign intelligence were active.
    The Polish defensive was in the forefront.
    Rokossovsky was "busted" because of his "Polish nationality" in the fall of 39. And already in March 40th, he was vacationing with his family (recuperating) in the Black Sea resorts.
    But the reasons for the "fast" career of Marshal of Artillery M. Kulik, People's Commissar Yezhov are still unclear ...
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 12: 05
    0
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    And already in March of the 40th, he was resting with his family (regaining strength) in the Black Sea resorts.

    I inserted knocked out teeth and healed three broken ribs. Well his, such "rest" and "recuperation"
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 12: 56
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Well his, such "rest" and "recuperation"


    Well, what did you want?
    lie detectors and pentonals, then there wasn’t yet.

    besides, you again forget about the context of the arrest of KKR.
    and then they actively cleaned out the remnants of the Tukhachevsky clique.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 13: 38
    0
    And the context, my friend, was this:
    Stalin fought against internal opposition, including the possible one.

    Many people decided to take advantage of the moment and, by denunciation, get rid of those unwanted or improve their position.
    Which extremely negatively affected all spheres of life of the USSR.
    By the way, Stalin himself indirectly admitted this, giving the command to eliminate Yezhov.
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 13: 54
    +2
    Well, you can see for yourself that the "unjustly repressed" could well get what they deserved.

    Why then screams about "decapitation" of the army, and other "pro-salipolymers"?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 14: 10
    -1
    Quote: Rider
    Well, you can see for yourself that the "unjustly repressed" could well get what they deserved.

    Do you justify "shooting in squares" so that some of the repressed "get what they deserve"?
    Do you justify the fact that those who wrote denunciations better climbed up?
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 14: 34
    +3
    Quote: Spade
    You make excuses


    and you justify the change of power and the "World rrreevolution"?

    and by the way, when you find a country in which the punitive organs consist of crystal clear altruists without silver, inform.
  • Kaa
    Kaa 5 May 2013 13: 31
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    He inserted broken teeth and healed three broken ribs.
    Doctor of Historical Sciences, professor and leading employee of the Institute of Russian History of the Academy of Sciences, and even director of some Documentation Center Boris Ilizarov in his innovative work "The Secret Life of Stalin" (M., Veche. 2002) writes that Rokossovsky "was knocked out nine teeth, broke three ribs and smashed the toes with a hammer "(p. 410). True, the anti-Soviet even does not know the name and patronymic of Konstantin Konstantinovich, like other marshals, and writes: "G.K. (!) Rokossovsky, A. V. (!) Vasilevsky" (ibid., P. 179). But what an awareness of teeth, ribs and fingers! Where is she from? Maybe from the very Center of Documentation, where he directs with great success? No, it turns out, from the work of fellow anti-Soviet Konstantin Zalessky "Stalin's Empire" (M., Veche. 2000).
    And this know-it-all also said this: "In March 1940, Rokossovsky was unexpectedly released (at the suggestion of S. K. Timoshenko)" (p. 390). First, for whom is it unexpected? Rokossovsky himself and everyone who knew him were firmly convinced of his innocence, and all the time from day to day they could not help but expect his release. Secondly, Tymoshenko is named here, apparently, in the belief that he was the people's commissar of defense, but in March 1940 he was not. Further: "After treatment in November 1940, Rokossovsky was appointed commander of the 19th mechanized corps" (ibid.). Rokossovsky was released on March 23. And so, they say, until November, that is, it took seven months to insert nine teeth, repair three ribs, and grow new toes. And only after that was appointed a corps commander. Oh my God!
    Firstly, Rokossovsky himself wrote: "In the spring of 1940, I visited Sochi with my family." (In the spring - that means after the release in April - May). Then he was invited by Tymoshenko, who became People's Commissar in May, and offered to take command of the 19th Cavalry Corps, not the “5th mechanized”. But the corps was still en route from Siberia to the Ukraine. While waiting for him, Rokossovsky was sent to the Kiev military district to help in checking the troops that were about to march to Bessarabia. It took place on June 28-30. "Having returned from Bessarabia, I took over the command of the (5th Cavalry) Corps," Rokossovsky recalled. This happened in July.
    It turns out that in April-May, his health condition did not prevent him from going to the resort, relaxing, returning to Moscow, in June - performing a responsible service assignment in Kiev and Bessarabia, and in July taking the corps. And when did they insert teeth, ribs and grow fingers? It is unknown ... And only after all this, which Zalessky ignored or ignored intentionally, in November, Rokossovsky headed the mechanized corps. But not the 19th, as the same expert assures. By the beginning of the war, we only had 9 mechanized corps, the commander of the 9th and Rokossovsky was appointed.
    Well, how can one believe these learned whistlers if they don’t even know the names of those they write about, and many other easily accessible facts. http://www.x-libri.ru/elib/bushn001/00000150.htm
    ALSO "BURNISH SOURCE"?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 13: 47
    0
    And to those who do not know that Rokossovsky was not convicted, do you prefer to believe?
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 13: 56
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    Do you prefer to believe?


    but it is clear who you prefer to believe

    (no offense)

    wink
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 14: 10
    0
    Of course. I believe in common sense.
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 14: 37
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    I believe in common sense.


    Well, if you think that in those days there was neither corruption, nor embezzlers of state funds, nor outright pests.

    then yes, HELLO HEALTHY SENSE!
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 16: 36
    -1
    I know that black and white does not exist. I do not make from Stalin an idol that is always right, as you and your like-minded people do. But I do not consider Stalin a world evil, which opponents insist on.
    Stalin brought up heavy industry, but at the same time he killed agriculture. Stalin showed himself during the war as an excellent organizer, but as an inferior military leader. Stalin did not sign the execution lists of 1000 people a day, but he created a "witch-hunt" atmosphere in society and could not keep his punitive apparatus in his hands.

    Your attitude to repression is very religious. Killed someone with lightning, "it means God punished, he was a sinner."
    So you: shot an innocent person on a false denunciation - "the repressed could well have received what they deserved."
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 17: 37
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    I do not make an idol from Stalin who is always right


    I'm sorry, but you have a big confusion in your head.

    Have I ever said somewhere that an IVS is an honor and conscience of our era and everything is ours?
    he has plenty of his sins, there is nothing to strangers hang on him.
    including about the "murder" of the village.
    you for interest, take an interest in productivity BEFORE collectivization and AFTER.
    and about the teamwork itself:http://stalinism.ru/kollektivizatsiya/stalin-i-kollektivizatsiya.html
    very balanced article.
    although from the site of the Stalinists.

    and I hope in not a supporter of the famine?

    Your attitude towards repressions

    well, in any case, it is better than - "they repent and again with their heads on the floor"

    here you probably imagine while unreasonable revelry of terror, when all those planted and set against the wall were ABSOLUTELY innocent?

    IVS was building POWER.
    after devastation and civil, after the "old revolutionary guard" in the Central Committee, who can only plant and hang.
    after Trotsky and KO, who needed Russia as a resource for "myravy snatching"
    and much more.
    Yes, he acted with "non-democratic" methods, and created an apparatus of suppression, under which purges and repressions began.

    however, what would you say about this attitude of the IVS to repression:http://topwar.ru/24102-plenum-anti-terror.html
    there was war on the nose, and the country needed heavy industry like air.

    Well, here's a heap:
    http://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/analysis/view/71326/



    By the way, you will not prompt how to make links clickable?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 5 May 2013 17: 55
    -1
    Quote: Rider
    I'm sorry, but you have a big confusion in your head.

    Is "not confusion" dancing around the idol of Comrade Stalin? Please dismiss. Let it be better chaos, but in their own brains, not borrowed ones. I will never become a hungweibing, the character is not the same.
  • Rider
    Rider 5 May 2013 18: 19
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Let the confusion be better, but in their brains, and not borrowed ones. I won’t ever become a Hongwein, the character is not the same.


    Well, not for me to agitate you, but in my opinion, it is better to have the most holistic picture of the world, and not just its black and white cast.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 5 May 2013 19: 16
    0
    Quote: Spade
    So you: shot an innocent person on a false denunciation - "the repressed could well have received what they deserved."

    In prison, everyone shouts - "I'm not guilty, he came himself!", It still needs to be proved that the denunciation was "fake"
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 5 May 2013 18: 11
    0
    It would be more correct to say that there is no reason to believe that the "imprisoned and executed" would have fought worse. But there is reason to assert that they were better prepared than most of those who remained in the ranks. The overwhelming majority of those who had experience of the First World War and the Civil War were repressed, and in the civil war, almost all of them were commanders of varying degrees - from company to front. And who replaced them? Newly minted graduates of military schools and academies? In which almost all the old teaching staff was knocked out by repression?
  • Raven1972
    Raven1972 5 May 2013 10: 52
    +1
    Sorry, of course, but comrade. Langemak was the head of the RS group, if not in the know ... For 10 years of work, under his leadership, NOT ONE working sample was presented !!!!!! But he was very keen on gliders ... Excuse me, was he set to make gliders or RS? As soon as this comrade was removed from the leadership for 3 months, they brought the RS to the state of BM-13 ... So there is no need for repression, for the case they shot ...
    He himself was not famous for anything outstanding later.

    And how many RS models were made under his leadership, except for the BM-13?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 5 May 2013 11: 57
      -1
      Sorry, but you are quoting Kostikov’s denunciation right now.
      1. Raven1972
        Raven1972 5 May 2013 12: 21
        +2
        I don’t quote Kostikov’s denunciation, I’m saying what really happened ... For 10 years, NOT a single working model of BM was submitted for testing, this is more than enough ... I didn’t cope with the task - answer, it’s only the way it should to be ... It became different - we have what is happening now ... And yet, since Kostikov signed up - then he was not afraid to be responsible for his words ... If it had not been confirmed - Kostikov’s term was shining no less ... . hi
        And let me ask - what invention did Kostikov appropriate? Which did not work 10 years? This is not an invention, but slag in this case ....
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 5 May 2013 13: 13
        -2
        Quote: Raven1972
        For 10 years, not a single working model of BM was submitted for testing

        This is also from the denunciation of Kostikov. In fact, the drawings were transferred to the industry:
        -82 mm high-explosive rocket;
        -132 mm high-explosive fragmentation projectile with a speed of 400m / sec .;
        -160-kg rocket aviation concrete bomb 203 mm caliber;
        -360 kg concrete bomb caliber 250 mm;
        -305 mm armor-piercing bomb weighing 650 kg;
        -132 mm lighting rocket projectile for torpedo boats;
        -152 mm signal and lighting shells;
        -40-mm signal rockets of day and night action.

        Quote: Raven1972
        Which did not work 10 years? This is not an invention, but slag in this case ....

        I wonder how the 132-mm rocket, which was tested in 1936, and whose blueprints were transferred, could "not work"? I can't put my mind to it. Can you enlighten?

        Quote: Raven1972
        And let me ask - what invention did Kostikov appropriate?

        The mechanism was simple. He denounces the head of Research Institute No. 3 Kleimenov, denounces the first candidate for his replacement, Glushko, while being a director, appropriates the invention of the repressed Langemak, a 132-mm aircraft missile, and inscribes himself as the head of the work of Guay and Aborenkov, who developed the ground launcher for these shells. Well, he takes credit for the work of Schwartz, Artemyev and Shitov on optimizing aircraft RS for use with a ground installation.
        So appeared Hero Sots. Labor Kostikov
      3. Lopatov
        Lopatov 5 May 2013 13: 48
        -1
        Can a minusator refute this?
      4. Raven1972
        Raven1972 5 May 2013 17: 56
        0
        Well, actually I’m not minus anyone, I don’t have such a habit ... hi
        If everything was as good as you write, then why did the BM-13 not appear in 38g. on Hassan and not in 39g. on Khalkhin Gol? Why was it created only after these personalities were removed from the leadership? If you don’t know, then, in fact, the commission of inquiry worked there and just after the embezzlement (as they say now - misappropriation of funds) a criminal was instituted !!!! business ... And it was precisely about embezzlement and sabotage of work on the topic of BM that Kostikov wrote in his letter ....
      5. Lopatov
        Lopatov 5 May 2013 18: 07
        -1
        They were used there.
        Type in the search engine "Khalkhin-Gol RS-82" (the same 82-mm high-explosive fragmentation missile projectile created by Langemak)
        RS-132 was already used in Finnish, with SB bombers
      6. Raven1972
        Raven1972 5 May 2013 18: 16
        0
        I am aware that they were used by aviation, but they had low accuracy and accuracy, I was talking about BM, i.e. about Katyusha ... Or MLRS ... Probably it would be better to send 24 missiles to samurai at a time than 4 or 6 from an airplane? And these "geniuses" could not make a machine for 10 years, but they were engaged in all sorts of nonsense - for which they got it in full ... soldier
      7. Rider
        Rider 5 May 2013 18: 25
        +2
        and you know a colleague, but Raven is right when reading the memoirs of our flyers, he often met the opinion that the use of RSov from a distance of more than 50m was ineffective.
        they flew not quite where they aimed.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 5 May 2013 11: 02
    +4
    Quote: Spade
    For example, shot creators of Soviet rockets

    Are you not Kurchevsky with his unfinished and unsuccessful gun?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 5 May 2013 12: 06
      +1
      There is a huge difference between rockets and a gas-dynamic cannon. To make it clear how between a hammer and a spoon.
  • воронов
    воронов 6 May 2013 00: 25
    -1
    Quote: Spade
    and why should my grandfather lie?

    Why lie right away? It could be from shell shock. laughing
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 6 May 2013 00: 30
      0
      Do you know something about shell-shock? Or like everything else, exclusively theoretically.
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 5 May 2013 18: 00
    0
    Just one example out of 337 is too weak proof of the "craftiness" of the numbers of mass repressions. By the end of them, no more than 21% of the officers who had many years of service and even war experience remained in the ranks. It should also be borne in mind that by the beginning of the Second World War, the number of officer posts, thanks to the increase in the army, had almost doubled compared to 2-1937. Consequently, by 38 there were no more than 1941 percent of experienced officers.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 5 May 2013 19: 21
      +1
      Quote: yurta2013
      Just one example out of 337 is too weak proof of the "craftiness" of the numbers of mass repressions. By the end of them, no more than 21% of the officers who had many years of service and even war experience remained in the ranks. It should also be borne in mind that by the beginning of the Second World War, the number of officer posts, thanks to the increase in the army, had almost doubled compared to 2-1937. Consequently, by 38 there were no more than 1941 percent of experienced officers.

      Or maybe the other way around? The reduction in the percentage of experienced commanders was due to an increase in the army!
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 32
        0
        And because of this, too. Read carefully my previous comment.
  • воронов
    воронов 6 May 2013 00: 23
    0
    Quote: Spade
    until the end of the war, German commanders from the battalion and below were better trained.

    So and I about ent, the German commanders of platoons, companies and battalions in 1945g. they won the war, and their commanders of regiments, divisions, army commanders lost it laughing
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 6 May 2013 00: 25
      0
      I believe my grandfather.
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 5 May 2013 16: 26
    +2
    If you are tired of the real facts of our history, then I advise you to simply go to another section of this site. There you will certainly not be annoyed by historical problems.
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 42
    0
    I do not force anyone to look at my "nickname". But fact is fact. It is impossible to refute it. There were other reasons, though. Army growth, for example. But the losses of the most experienced commanders are always irreparable. There was no replacement for them in the USSR. For example: Germany, before the war, actually re-created its army. But there they attracted from the reserve officers of the 1st World War. We have almost no such stock left.
  • antidote
    antidote 5 May 2013 16: 42
    +2
    Well, about repression, an old song, in the style of 46 million dead Soviet troops
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 7 May 2013 03: 30
      -1
      And what, even 2 million repressed only in 1937-38. - is that your opinion a bit? And add to them millions of convicts, executed, and deported to places unsuitable for the life of peasants by the years of collectivization. And what about repressions during all the other years of the existence of the Stalinist system? Even according to the most minimal estimates for all these years, at least 10 million citizens of the country were destroyed or became state slaves. Count a few more millions who died from the famine organized by the authorities in the early 30s. These are all victims of the Stalinist system.
  • воронов
    воронов 6 May 2013 00: 17
    +1
    Quote: yurta2013
    huge losses from the repression of 1937-38 gg

    Not tired of Svanidze and similar "historians" to quote?
  • Roll
    Roll 4 May 2013 13: 16
    +1
    fellow Here is a specific example, Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov correctly managed the fleet. The fleet did not suffer losses from a sudden blow, and where the command was evacuated, the resistance of the troops fell sharply. A good general even with a poorly trained army defeated a stronger army with a poor general and there are many such examples in history.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 4 May 2013 13: 21
      +3
      Just for reference, the southern direction for the Germans was generally secondary and the balance of power there was not so favorable for them.
    2. skeptic
      skeptic 4 May 2013 14: 58
      +3
      Quote: Rolm
      wink In my opinion, whether we knew how to fight was not quite right. The ability to fight 70 percent depends on the art of command. The command of our army, with the exception of 1943 and by 1953, was disgusting.

      Quote: Rolm
      fellow Here is a concrete example, Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov correctly managed the fleet. The fleet didn’t suffer losses from a sudden blow


      Damn, in what years did Admiral Kuznetsov manage the USSR Fleet?
      1. Roll
        Roll 4 May 2013 19: 36
        0
        tongue Kuznetsov led the fleet in 1941, but this, like with Vatutin and Rokosovsky, are separate examples, and they normalized the management of the army by 1943, when a normal army leadership system was created.
    3. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 04
      +5
      Quote: Rolm
      Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov competently managed the fleet

      You okromya Kuznetsova other naval commanders of the Great Patriotic War know?
      What are the names of Oktyabrsky, Gorshkov, which give you associations, not counting the names of warships and streets?
      All the merit of Kuznetsov was that he had the Glavkoverh bring the Black Sea Fleet, KBF and SF to state number 1 on the night of 22.06.1941.
      All.
      Nothing more is written about him.
      Can you recall the Tallinn campaign ...
    4. Egoza
      Egoza 4 May 2013 21: 52
      +3
      Quote: Rolm
      Here is a concrete example, Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov

      Let me add a little
      For the forces of the Navy on June 19, 1941, the signal "Readiness No. 2" was transmitted, which meant the collection of personnel on ships, at headquarters, and enhanced combat duty. On the same day, an order was issued to disguise the airfields, to separate the front departments and to occupy the field control points by them.
      The commanders and headquarters of the fronts, realizing that the restrictions on putting operational plans into effect hinder the actions of the troops, began on their own initiative to order the opening of operational packages. K.K. Rokossovsky writes for example, that such an order (from the headquarters of the 5th Army of the Southwestern Front) he received about 4 a.m. And the military council of the Western Front is only at 5 hours 25 minutes. sent the directive to the armies: "In view of the massive military operations that have been identified by the Germans, I order: to raise troops and act in combat."
      And still worth reading -
      When there was no more surprise (fb2)
      http://lib.rus.ec/b/103980/read
  • Proud.
    Proud. 4 May 2013 13: 25
    +4
    "... I. Bestuzhev-Lada is a Russian scientist, historian, sociologist and futurologist (!), An expert in the field of social forecasting and global studies ..." I don’t know what kind of historian he is, but a futurologist, probably a noble one. Bestuzhev-Lada. ., an attempt to unite the Decembrist and the auto industry.
  • Gari
    Gari 4 May 2013 13: 32
    +8
    I wouldn’t know how it would be -Parade of Victory
  • Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 4 May 2013 14: 10
    +2
    I have already said many times that all sorts of "historians" love to operate with figures taken from the ceiling.
    as well as with the Winter War, in some opuses I came across numbers of as many as 2 million Red Army men belay
    (Although my friend is a professor who has been dealing with this topic for a long time and seriously indicates a figure less than at least every 10) ...
    And another such moment, why do you think that after Stalingrad Germany declared great mourning, and after that there weren’t such moments yet?
    It's simple - at the time of Stalingrad, the Wehrmacht was precisely the German army, that is. consisting in the absolute majority of Germans and after the loss of the 9th Army, the percentage of "allies" - Romanians, Italians and others wink
    There is also such a concept as "mobilization resource" ... But okay, I'll leave it for later =)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ivankursk46
    ivankursk46 4 May 2013 14: 35
    0
    [media = http: // http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = DgrXmiqhc3Y & feature = player_detailpa
    ge]
  • My address
    My address 4 May 2013 15: 18
    +4
    It is sad that the head of state treats Solzhenitsyn with reverence. Moreover, he considers him a great writer. And that only "One Day ...", co-written with a correspondent, is literary, the rest is unreadable.
    Sad and strange ...
    1. antidote
      antidote 5 May 2013 16: 49
      0
      I read it, barely mastered. Very clumsy language
  • Superbandera
    Superbandera 4 May 2013 16: 18
    -7
    8 million 509 thousand 300 people, internal troops - 97 thousand 700 people, border guards and state security agencies - 61 thousand. 400 people.

    The total loss, including those captured - 11 million 444,1 thousand.

    the first figure is the fruit of Stalinist propaganda - which tried to hide the miscalculations of Stalin. Indeed, if you compare the figure of 7 million (total irretrievable losses, Germany on all fronts) and 8.5 million losses of the Red Army, the difference is not so striking. But if you take the figure of 11.5 million (total irretrievable losses of the USSR Armed Forces), then it becomes clear that something is not right. and unpleasant questions begin to arise.
  • Superbandera
    Superbandera 4 May 2013 16: 24
    -1
    Quote: yurta2013
    . It is unclear only by what criteria you distinguish the quality of management before and after the beginning of 1943.

    Well, if you don’t know, the irretrievable losses of the Red Army since the capture of the Bukrinsky bridgehead (1944) and the capture of Berlin amounted to about 1.2 million people, while this was a phase of active offensive battles. to compare the losses of the Red Army in September-October 1941, the figures reached 5 million people. Questions?
  • Superbandera
    Superbandera 4 May 2013 16: 38
    -4
    here I see some kind of "active-alternative" "truth-lover" rubs my posts, though without comments - because there is nothing to answer. Therefore, for a snack here is a small "knight" from "Memories and Reflections"
    Then General N.F. Vatutin said that I.V. Stalin approved the draft Directive No. 3 by the People's Commissar and ordered my signature to be signed.
    - What is this directive? I asked.
    - The directive provides for the transfer of our troops to counter-offensive operations with the task of defeating the enemy in the most important areas, moreover, with access to enemy territory.
    “But we still do not know exactly where and by what forces the enemy strikes,” I objected. - Isn't it better to figure out what is happening at the front before morning, and then make the right decision.
    “I share your point of view, but this is a settled matter.”
    “Good,” I said, “put my signature.”
    from. Xnumx

    But what about Kiev? Asked I.V. Stalin.
    I understood that two words meant: “surrender Kiev” for all Soviet people and for JV Stalin. But I could not give in to feelings, but, as a military man, I was obliged to offer the only possible, in my opinion, solution in the current situation.
    “Kiev will have to be left,” I answered. - in the western direction it is necessary to immediately organize a counterattack in order to eliminate the Yelninsky ledge. The enemy can use this bridgehead to strike Moscow.
    - What other counterattacks are there, what nonsense? - flushed I.V. Stalin. - How could you think of surrendering Kiev to the enemy?
    I could not restrain myself and replied:
    - if you think that the chief of the General Staff is only able to grind nonsense, then he has nothing to do here. I ask you to relieve me of the duties of chief of general staff and send me to the front. There, I, apparently, will bring more benefits to the motherland.
    “You are not getting excited,” said I.V. Stalin. “And by the way, if you put the question like that, we can do without you ...”

    from. Xnumx
    1. smile
      smile 4 May 2013 23: 54
      +3
      Superbandera
      Who cares for you, a kind of untrustworthy ... rub you ... and do not argue with you, if only because the topic of losses on the site comes up once every couple of weeks, the topic is chewed up to a pulp that can be fed to someone lying in a coma ... therefore, no one doubts the figures given in the article .... and only blinkered people like you have not read anything of this and, with persistence worthy of better use, are trying to sprinkle g ... o on the fan ... to sell their "smart" thought, read at some bunich-rezun-corned beef ... it's pointless to talk to you - you don't understand the argumentation, you can't see your wrongness at close range ... so we got tired of it ... so, squeamishly minus clicked and went on ... fortunately, there are fewer and fewer people like you - the people are becoming more literate ...
      ..usually I don’t cling to nicknames ... but here - you would call yourself a megagitler ... krasssssavets ...
    2. Rider
      Rider 5 May 2013 00: 29
      +2
      Quote: SuperBandera
      truth without comments - for there is nothing to answer


      miracle, you have to give a hot link to the REAL KONDA TRUTH ON THE WAR.

      and we are all together with the whole site.
  • AlNick
    AlNick 4 May 2013 17: 03
    +1
    Report of the GKO Commission comrade To Stalin

    11 April 1944 city

    No. M-715


    By order of the Supreme Command Headquarters, the Extraordinary Commission, composed of a member of GKO Comrade. Malenkova (chairman), Colonel General Shcherbakov, Colonel General Shtemenko, Lieutenant General Kuznetsov and Lieutenant General Shimonayev conducted the work of the Western Front headquarters and based on this check established the following:

    UNSATISFECT BATTLE ACTIONS OF THE WESTERN FRONT FOR THE LAST MONTHS

    From October 12, 1943 to April 1, 1944, the Western Front, under the command of Army General Sokolovsky, carried out eleven operations in the Orsha and Vitebsk directions, namely:

    Orsha operation October 12-18, 1943
    Orsha operation October 21-26, 1943
    Orsha operation November 14-19, 1943
    Orsha operation November 30 - December 2, 1943
    Vitebsk operation December 23, 1943 - January 6, 1944
    Bogushevskaya operation January 8-24, 1944
    Vitebsk operation February 3-16, 1944
    Private operation in Orsha direction February 22-25, 1944
    Vitebsk operation February 29 - March 5, 1944
    Orsha operation March 5-9, 1944
    Bogushevskaya operation March 21-29, 1944

    All these operations ended unsuccessfully, and the front did not solve the tasks set by the Headquarters. In none of these operations was the enemy’s defense broken, at least to its tactical depth, the operation ended, at best, with a small penetration into the enemy’s defense with large losses of our troops.

    The offensive in the Orsha direction on October 12-18 ended with a wedging of 1-1,5 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 5858 people, wounded - 17 478 people. Only -23 336 people.

    The offensive on the Orsha direction on October 21-26 is an advance of 4 to 6 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 4787 people, wounded - 14 315 people. In total - 19 102 people.

    The offensive in the Orsha direction on November 14-19 is an advance of 1 to 4 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 9167 people, wounded - 29 589 people. In total - 38 756 people.

    The offensive in the Orsha direction November 30 - December 2 - wedging from 1 to 2 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 5611 people, wounded - 17 259 people. In total - 22 870 people.

    The offensive in the Vitebsk direction December 23 - January 6 - advance of 8-12 km. The enemy retreated to a previously prepared line. Our losses: killed - 6692 people, wounded - 28 904 people. A total of 35 596 people.

    The offensive on the Bogushevsky direction on January 8-24 is a wedge of 2-4 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 5517 people, wounded - 19 672 people. In total - 25 189 people.

    The offensive in the Vitebsk direction on February 3-16 is an advance of 3-4 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 9651 people, wounded - 32 844 people. In total - 42 people.

    A partial operation in the Orsha direction on February 22-25 did not produce any result. In this operation, parts of the 52nd Fortified Region themselves were encircled, and with great losses the original position was restored. Our losses: 1288 killed and 4479 wounded. In total - 5767 people.
  • AlNick
    AlNick 4 May 2013 17: 04
    +2
    The offensive in the Vitebsk direction February 29 - March 5 - advance from 2 to 6 kilometers. Our losses: 2650 people killed - 9205 wounded. In total - 11 855 people.
    Among the dead was my grandfather - he died on March 2, 1944, fought from the first days of the war, 5 wounds and shell shock.

    The offensive in the Orsha direction on March 5–9 was unsuccessful. Our losses: 1898 killed, 5639 wounded. In total - 7537 people.

    The offensive on the Bogushevsky direction on March 21-29 is wedging from 1 to 3,5 kilometers. Our losses: killed - 9207 people, wounded - 30 828 people. In total - 40 035 people.

    In these inconclusive operations, from October 12, 1943 to April 1, 1944, only in the areas of active operations the front suffered casualties - 62 326 people, 219 419 people wounded, and 281 745 people killed and wounded. If we add to this the losses on the passive sectors of the front, then during the period from October 1943 to April 1944, the Western Front lost - 330 people. In addition, during the same time, 587 people were hospitalized from the troops of the Western Front.

    In the above operations, from October 1943 to April 1944, the Western Front used up a very large amount of ammunition, namely: 7261 wagons. For the same year, from March 1943 to March 1944, the front used up 16 carriages of ammunition. During the same time, i.e. in a year. The Belarusian front used up - 661 12 cars, the 335st Ukrainian front - 1 10 cars. The 945th Ukrainian Front - 4 wagons, and each of the other fronts spent less ammunition than the listed fronts. Thus, the Western Front used up much more ammunition than any other front.

    The unsuccessful actions of the Western Front over the past six months, heavy losses and a large expenditure of ammunition are explained not by the presence of a strong enemy and insurmountable defense in front of the front, but by the extremely unsatisfactory leadership of the front command. In carrying out all operations, the Western Front has always had significant superiority in forces and weapons over the enemy, which certainly allows us to count on success.


    This is only one of the real documents of the Second World War, and not the tales of modern writers, draw your own conclusions.

    More details >>> http://www.battlefield.ru/report-to-stalin-11-04-1944.html
    1. Rider
      Rider 5 May 2013 00: 38
      +1
      Quote: AlNick
      In these inconclusive operations, from October 12, 1943 to April 1, 1944, only in the areas of active operations the front suffered casualties - 62 326 people, 219 419 people wounded, and 281 745 people killed and wounded. If we add to this the losses on the passive sectors of the front, then during the period from October 1943 to April 1944, the Western Front lost - 330 people. In addition, during the same time, 587 people were hospitalized from the troops of the Western Front.


      you are right, Alexander.

      BUT NOTICE!
      you yourself gave the true numbers WHAT FOR six months Offensive battles, the western front suffered a total loss of about 400 people.

      so you yourself see about any "filling up with corpses", there is no question.

      and it would be good to compare with the losses of the Germans in this sector of the front.
      1. AlNick
        AlNick 5 May 2013 05: 22
        0
        "... so you see for yourself about any" filling up with corpses, "there is no question."

        Yes, especially when you consider that the maximum advance, for example, in the Vitebsk direction during the advance of December 23 - January 6 was only 8-12 km, and then the enemy retreated to a previously prepared line (the Panther — Wotan defensive line, the northern part of the Eastern Wall). Her teeth were broken
        And so the main advance is not more than 4 km with a clear advantage in strength. And these are all front-line operations carried out in relatively narrow sections of the front. So divide the amount of loss by promotion. And who needed such meaningless losses.
        If you looked at the entire report of the commission (footnote), then you probably noticed that nobody was really punished.
        They did not attack any more, they left everything until the beginning of Operation Bagration.

        So it turns out that they could fight with skill, but not always ...
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 5 May 2013 11: 17
          +4
          Quote: AlNick
          So it turns out that they could fight with skill, but not always ...

          Thoughtful you are our ...
          You "move your curls" - why was the commission created?
          Or was there other sad statistics on other sectors and fronts?
        2. Rider
          Rider 5 May 2013 11: 23
          +1
          Quote: AlNick
          So it turns out that they could fight with skill, but not always ...


          and who argues about?

          you probably want all our wars to be like Suvorov’s.

          and a warrior consists of such unsuccessful, or successful (as Bagration) operations.
          and the Germans had exactly the same.

          In addition, the diversity of operations over time, and the lack of concentration of forces, suggests that these were not strategic operations, but rather private ones.

          but I again draw your attention to the losses for half a year.

          how many Germans were busy with Sevastopol or Stalingrad?
  • yurta2013
    yurta2013 4 May 2013 17: 52
    -1
    The article is very weak. Although the author manipulates many numbers, he often draws conclusions from them logically incorrect. So, he compares 8,7 million dead at the front and from the wounds of Soviet soldiers with 7,1 dead Germans, citing Hitler confirming this figure. But, firstly, Hitler meant all the Germans who died both at the front and in the rear (including hundreds of thousands of civilians under the bombs). Secondly, he included in this figure all those captured, of which there were more than 2 million people in the USSR alone. Thirdly, far from all of those who died in battles and from the wounds of the Germans died precisely on the Soviet front. After all, the Germans from 1941 to 1945. also fought in North Africa, Italy, France, fought against partisans in Yugoslavia and a number of other countries of Eastern Europe, and since 1939 fought fierce air battles with the air of our allies. Thus, the conclusion about approximately equal losses of the parties on the Soviet-German front is, at best, a gross mistake, and at worst, deliberate falsification.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 4 May 2013 19: 51
        +4
        Quote: SuperBandera
        . Well, like fairy tales about the feat of Vasya Matrosov.


        Not for you to judge. Shalvary pull up, super-Bandera, damn it.

        Quote: SuperBandera
        The question is what is this pillbox that could not be hit by the "armor-piercing" from the anti-tank gun, it is quite possible to charge it into the embrasure from a distance of 2 km,


        It is very doubtful that from a distance of 2000 meters, even at 1000 meters, using open sights it is really possible to hit such a small target as an embrasure. In secret, I’ll say that with 100m from the SVD, shooting cartridges with an LPS bullet, it’s quite problematic to knock out the bottom of the beer bottle so that the bullet goes into the neck and knocks the bottom out. So when shkololo will again sing his Galician trololo - let him take it into account.
        for starters, you should work out the first time to get into the hole of the toilet, over there, which stink Bandera dismissed.

        Quote: SuperBandera
        By the way, most of the bunkers and bunkers were just so suppressed.


        By whom? An aria of DUPAST chronosides, which, in your opinion, stormed Berlin?
        1. Superbandera
          Superbandera 4 May 2013 20: 15
          -5
          Quote: Hudo
          It is very doubtful that from a distance of 2000 meters, even at 1000 meters, using open sights it is really possible to hit such a small-sized target as an embrasure

          what are we smoking? meter gap is a small target? Merikos snipers from all sorts of barrels and others hit targets at a distance of up to 1900 m. And the PTRD has a significantly larger muzzle energy and better (significantly) ballistic characteristics. Plus, a moving target and a stationary target (embrasure) were compared.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 4 May 2013 20: 44
            +3
            Vyunosh, it is doubtful that you were holding in your hands something more serious than a pneumatic karamultuk in the dash of your kakarpatsky village. lol hi
          2. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 21: 18
            +6
            Quote: SuperBandera
            Plus, a moving target and a stationary target (embrasure) were compared.

            Bunkers with flanking fire can not be reached by either the PTR or your bros, Amykans with their barrels.
      2. family tree
        family tree 4 May 2013 20: 17
        +6
        It should be borne in mind that fire is fired from the depths of the room, so almost no one sees flashes of shots and pulsating streams of smoke. Only one who looks deep into the embrasure can see something. A slight lateral shift - flashes and smoke become invisible. There are very few points from which to see them, and they are usually known to the bunker garrison and well shot. A cloud of dust raised by powder gases is also absent. The sound is muffled, and its source is incomprehensible. Bunkers are often designed exclusively for conducting flanking fire and deployed to the front at an angle approaching 90 degrees. In this case, a shaft is piled parallel to the direction of the fire towards the enemy, which does not allow shelling of the embrasure from the front.
        Come on, grab the anti-tank gun and go, suppress, balabol.
        1. Superbandera
          Superbandera 4 May 2013 22: 01
          -4
          unintelligent man uneducated and from what you were going to shoot the potential position for calculating the front-to-rear engine if the effective range of the MG-42 is 1400m?
          read the school

          By the time the decision was made, the battalion commander had the following updated information about the nature of fortifications and the enemy fire system.
          DOT 1 - reinforced concrete. Her embrasure is facing southeast. The shelling sector of DOT 1 is about 90 °, under fire it holds approaches to the altitude from the side of the Kolbel - Zhvir highway. From the south, the approach to the bunker is covered by a machine gun, which has several firing positions throughout the southern section of the trench.
          DOT 2 - reinforced concrete. Judging by the width of the camouflage net, its dimensions are several times greater than the dimensions of DOT 1. The front wall facing south is a continuous armor sheet in which there are two observation “eyes” protected by steel caps with narrow slots. The lack of embrasure, as well as the characteristic sound and rate of fire, indicated that the DOT 2 had a large-caliber machine gun mounted on a ball mount. This machine gun shot through the hollow, covering the southern slopes of the heights. 119,0. The shelling sector of the bunker 2 is about 70 °. The front door is located in the western wall of the bunker 2. To it is the course of communication from an artillery observation post and a trench from the north-western slopes of height. Above the DOT 2 overlap, a periscope appears from time to time. All approaches to it are under the flanking fire of light machine guns.
          DOT 3 is located at a dominant height; its device is similar to that of DOT 1. The embrasure of DOT 3 is facing southeast. In the trench in front of the bunker 3 there are firing positions of two light machine guns. To the north of DOT 3 there is a field-type observation post.
          A long-term artillery observation post is located on a crest of heights. It has an armored cap over which a periscope often and for a long time appeared. In the side walls of the cap, observational “eyes” are seen.
          The total number of the garrison of a strong point is no more than two companies. The trenches were located near the company, the rest of the garrison was in the bunker. With the onset of darkness and during the night, most of the garrison was awake, being in trenches and occupying the bunkers. In the morning, between 9 and 10 hours, a shift usually occurred; the machine guns were only on duty. The changed units had breakfast for 30-40 minutes, and then rested in the bunkers of DOT 2 and the artillery observation post. In the afternoon, soldiers spent most of their time inside the bunker. Starting from 14 p.m., soldiers in groups of 10-12 people went out into the grove (south of Proguliany), where food was brought along. At 17 p.m. soldiers returned in groups.
          The decision made by the battalion commander was as follows. Using a period of time from 16 to 17 hours, during which the majority of the garrison of the strongpoint took food, the assault group — one rifle platoon — burst to a height, capture DOT 2 and an artillery observation post and prevent the enemy in the grove and casemates from occupying their positions in the trenches. Strengthen the rifle platoon with a machine-gun platoon, a platoon of anti-tank rifles and a sapper squad. The attack begins suddenly, without prior artillery preparation.


          At 16 o’clock the battalion commander gave the signal “Attack”. The soldiers began to crawl under the hedgehogs. At the same time, artillery, mortars and anti-tank rifles opened fire. The explosions of smoke shells that lay in the area of ​​observation posts blinded the enemy. DOT 2 light machine gun was destroyed by several shots of PTR.


          Although I certainly understand that it is useless to throw beads in front of pigs.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 4 May 2013 22: 20
            +7
            Quote: SuperBandera
            Although I certainly understand that it is useless to throw beads in front of pigs

            Boy ...
            Zinc for the geyser ...
          2. smile
            smile 5 May 2013 00: 06
            +4
            Superbandera
            Do not confuse us, please with your ungulates like-minded people and you can leave your beads with you - do not worry about its safety, it does not represent any value for us ...
          3. Rider
            Rider 5 May 2013 01: 13
            +3
            Quote: SuperBandera
            Although I certainly understand that it is useless to throw beads in front of pigs.


            that’s why we don’t do it.
            and beads are a pity for you.
          4. family tree
            family tree 5 May 2013 01: 21
            +3
            And all the best to you, ololoshka.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 5 May 2013 19: 28
      0
      Dear yurta2013, you are the master to turn everything upside down. The number of 12 or 15 million people was voiced with the prisoners. The USSR also had other theater of operations, the Far East, Central Asia, the Caucasus, where a significant number of troops were located.
  • shinobi
    shinobi 4 May 2013 17: 57
    +4
    With the collapse of the union, everyone who was under the boot of the Nazis and was released by a Russian warrior to self-justify a chorus of deregulation, the nato sing that de Russian Ivan can’t fight, take it with his bare hands. to deprive a simple Russian will to fight when the time comes to beat the invaders. As the experience of recent wars in the Caucasus has shown, if your own government does not betray the army, you have not forgotten how to beat the Russian Vanya. Here the current sways for a long time. But tradition, however.
    PS: The funny thing is that all the koi states have ever snatched lyuley from Russia, they are extremely cautious about the ability of our army to fight. But those whom the army liberated and the former allies squeal loudest.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Raven1972
      Raven1972 5 May 2013 11: 02
      -1
      Quote: shinobi
      The funny thing is that all the koi states have ever snatched lyuley from Russia, they are extremely cautious about the ability of our army to fight. But those whom the army has liberated and the former allies are the loudest squeal.

      To the point said !!!!!!!!!!!!! good good good hi
    3. yurta2013
      yurta2013 5 May 2013 17: 10
      -1
      Generally, people write historical works, not states. By the way, it was the German generals who, as you write, "snatched away the Lyuli" from Russia, were the first to write in their memoirs that the Russians fought ineptly and that all our successes were achieved due to the great numerical superiority. We must honestly admit that, at least in the first months of the war, this was largely true. And the recognition of this fact does not at all mean surrender to the West. An honest assessment of your history is much more useful than propaganda lies, as it allows you to know your weaknesses and correct them in time.
      1. Alex
        Alex 30 August 2013 11: 27
        +2
        Quote: yurta2013
        Actually, historical works are written by people, not states.

        By order of the state.

        Quote: yurta2013
        By the way, it was the German generals who, as you write, "snatched away the Lyuli" from Russia, were the first to write in their memoirs that the Russians fought ineptly and that all our successes were achieved due to the great numerical superiority.

        And what they, beaten, write. This is who himself in his own stupidity will sign.

        Quote: yurta2013
        It must be honestly acknowledged that at least in the first months of the war this was largely true.

        As far as I remember, in the first months of the war, just the Germans beat us. And solely due to the creation of numerical superiority in the breakthrough areas (which, by the way, is evidence of the ability to fight). And not everywhere: where it was possible to react in time, then they were raking in the Ganvas, and not Ivana.

        Quote: yurta2013
        An honest assessment of your story is much more useful than propaganda lies.

        Speak the truth, but for some reason it turns out that the whole truth is known in advance (we are fools, cowards, capitulators, ignoramuses and we can only crush with shobla) and under it all facts are rigged. And if the facts do not correspond to the theory, then all the worse for the facts.

        You, dear, reminded me of one of my classmate. He, too, came up with a theory for a diploma (and from an occupied position it was as difficult to push it as you did) and he put an experiment under it. On the report he was asked a question:
        - Did you carry out the statistical processing of the received data?
        “Yes, it is,” answered Olezhka readily.
        “And what was it?”
        - And all the time. What points did not fit the test system, we ignored them.

        Sound familiar?
  • Superbandera
    Superbandera 4 May 2013 18: 43
    -5
    Quote: yurta2013
    went so far that the number of divisions of 6-8 thousand people began to be considered normal (full-time - about 15 thousand)

    in the red army, this was just the regular strength of the division. 15 thousand is a bit much even for the Waffen SS line divisions. so the total strength of the SS "Galicia" division with all auxiliary units was about 14 thousand. man.
    1. sichevik
      sichevik 4 May 2013 19: 44
      +3
      Your grandfather served in this division. Rather, he served the Germans.
      1. Superbandera
        Superbandera 4 May 2013 20: 28
        -2
        Quote: sichevik
        Your grandfather served in this division. Rather, he served the Germans.

        and yours judging by the tricolor wink heroed in a row of roa ??? hello "collage"
        1. sichevik
          sichevik 4 May 2013 20: 35
          +7
          Volyn knur you colleague.
          My grandfather - guard captain V. Romanov died in March 1943. It was shot down. He was a pilot. If interested, see the website Feat of the People. There is written about him. And the second grandfather died, liberating the Kherson region.
          It’s hardly written about your grandfather.
          1. Superbandera
            Superbandera 4 May 2013 22: 19
            -5
            cheto on your forehead it is not written that you are novels, and I, too, can write a lot of things. Just like Yanukevich. Looks like a greyhound spits on a zombie hunter - but about the fact that his grandfather worked as a punisher in Belarus, he is embarrassed to say just as well as to say why his dad was put to the mines of Donbass from his native Syabrschina. So in words everything is sounded, but like a deeper deeper, such garbage begins ..
            1. smile
              smile 5 May 2013 00: 19
              +6
              Superbandera
              My grandfather, Dmitry Romanovich Dmitrenko, served in the army from 41, at the front from 42 to 45, for almost thirty years, his whole chest in orders and medals ... the most severe curse he used very rarely was Bandera ... so your he would perceive it as superX .... judging by your comments, you are what they are ... why are you poking a scribble, he didn’t grunt in the same pool with you.
            2. sichevik
              sichevik 5 May 2013 00: 25
              +6
              You still remember about the pimple yushch and his father. which in the concentration camps was a snitch and a brood hen. And how the Germans taught him how to drink coffee there.
              And how many of our soldiers were executed on his tip.
          2. Superbandera
            Superbandera 4 May 2013 22: 40
            -4
            By the way, how old are you?
            1. sichevik
              sichevik 5 May 2013 00: 20
              +4
              Don't you take too much on yourself, Volyn miracle?
              Why is it necessary to report to you? Can I show you a passport?
              It’s definitely not written on my forehead that I am Romanov. Yes and V. Romanov. maternal grandfather to me. Actually, this is not your pig job.
              But you have something written on your forehead.
              And I’m certainly more likely. than you.
    2. family tree
      family tree 4 May 2013 19: 48
      +7
      SuperBandera (1) in the Red Army, this was exactly the regular strength of the division. 15 thousand is a bit much even for the Waffen SS line divisions. so the total strength of the SS "Galicia" division with all auxiliary units was about 14 thousand. man.
      Rifle Division RKKA-14483 men, according to the staff list of 1941. The Wehrmacht, infantry-16859 people, the same year. Before you broadcast something, think about it, because as you lied once, there will be no faith in the future.
      1. Superbandera
        Superbandera 4 May 2013 20: 10
        -5
        Thus, the NPO was constantly reducing the staff of the Red Army rifle divisions - from 14 people on the eve of the war to 9380 people in December 1943. In this regard, the percentage of staffing divisions is constantly growing, in considerable proportion to the time of year. At the same time, the firepower of the division increased quite significantly - in the first place, this concerns both the quantity and quality of the standard and real weapons in the hands of the soldiers. Therefore, although each rifle division of the Red Army remained much weaker than its German counterpart, the sheer number of rifle divisions put up by the Red Army in 1943 more than compensated for their individual weakness. As a result, beginning in July 1943, the Wehrmacht began to experience a chain of defeats, eventually reaching a complete defeat in May 1945.
        * The average number of infantry divisions on July 10, 1943 was: Western Front - 7120 people, Bryansk Front - 7920 people, Central Front - 6810 people, Voronezh Front - 7180 people, Steppe Front - 6070 people. See: Battle of Kursk. M .: Nauka, 1970.S. 490 (Appendix 19). Thus, the average number of divisions participating in the counterattack near Kursk ranged from 55 to 70% of the pre-war state. (Ed.)

        http://battlefront.ru/rkka001.htm
        And all these tales about 14 thousand divisions are a figment of the imagination of Jewish political workers, like you. In reality, there were never such divisions in the Red Army
        1. family tree
          family tree 4 May 2013 20: 46
          +4
          Quote: SuperBandera
          http://battlefront.ru/rkka001.htm
          And all these tales about 14 thousand divisions are a figment of the imagination of Jewish political workers, like you. In reality, there were never such divisions in the Red Army

          Dada, killed, state 04 / 400-416 from 05.04.41/XNUMX/XNUMX
          You could even say that in the first, and in the second year of the war this was the rule rather than the exception. It got to the point that the number of divisions of 6-8 thousand people began to be considered normal (full-time - about 15 thousand).
          Imagine further, the protoucre is independent.
  • rexby63
    rexby63 4 May 2013 18: 54
    +5
    "The Russian remains a good soldier everywhere and in any conditions."

    Friedrich Wilhelm von Mellentin - Major General of the Wehrmacht tank forces.

    And he wrote about the top commanders:

    "... during the war, the Russians were constantly improving, and their top commanders and staffs received a lot of useful information by studying the experience of combat operations of their troops and the German army. They learned to quickly respond to any changes in the situation, to act energetically and decisively. Of course, in the person of Zhukov. , Konev, Vatutin and Vasilevsky, Russia had highly gifted commanders of armies and fronts. "

    This was written by the ENEMY, I do not understand why compatriots write any trash. Or not compatriots, but all sorts of "Lyudki Alekseevs"?
    1. shinobi
      shinobi 4 May 2013 19: 26
      +7
      Guderian, for all his dislike of the Russians, said: if I had an army of such soldiers, I would conquer the world.
      PS: I recently on topvar, who can’t enlighten the trolls here? Well, so as not to argue in vain
      1. sichevik
        sichevik 4 May 2013 19: 49
        +4
        Yes, at least a superbander. Another troll. They sometimes appear here. This is mainly ukronatsiki. Admirers and fans of Bandera and Shukhevych - Hitler's cocksuckers.
        But with such clowns there is no sense in engaging in polemics.
      2. family tree
        family tree 4 May 2013 19: 58
        +5
        "I, darling, recognize by gait" (c) But there are no permanent ones, or they change their nicknames.
        1. sichevik
          sichevik 4 May 2013 20: 28
          0
          There are no permanent ones. Actually, today some small trolls have gone. Appears on the site, a little crap and disappears.
          Earlier there were noble trolls. Straight marshals seropogonniki. And now, dirty trick on the shallow. Most likely young men of senior school age.
      3. dmi32167
        dmi32167 4 May 2013 21: 46
        +3
        Guderian completely and irrevocably missed Katukova and Co. as a tank general in 1941, for which he was naturally dismissed.
      4. Raven1972
        Raven1972 5 May 2013 11: 07
        -1
        You will immediately see them because of the nonsense that they are trying to vparit here)) And the carriages in them very fast turn gray .... drinks hi
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 5 May 2013 17: 26
          -1
          And who didn’t like something here? The man asked how to find out the trolls - I answered .... hi
  • Zlyden.Zlo
    Zlyden.Zlo 4 May 2013 19: 20
    +3
    The Red Army had a very good teacher. The Nazis. We learned and excelled them. This is not a pretty fact. In memory of the soldiers 1941-45
  • wax
    wax 4 May 2013 19: 58
    +3
    This mowing down to the historian B.V. Sokolov is the most disgusting hack, he vilifies everything Soviet: generals, Marshal Zhukov, Supreme Commander-in-Chief, plans and methods of waging battles and war, our soldiers. And he praises the German generals and their soldiers, not only militarily, but also, you will not believe, morally. He is very prolific, he flooded young readers with his "historical" opuses, and what is most disgusting, is published in catchy and massive editions. This is not just a fifth column, it is ideological aggression. How long will such waste paper continue to flow unhindered and inexhaustible to the mass reader? Something is wrong in our state and very dangerous in its consequences.
    1. Stalinets
      Stalinets 4 May 2013 20: 23
      0
      And you read those and listen to Arsen Martirosyan. And then you who write badly about Zhukov, mowing is done. Do not do this. Everyone has the right to an opinion. It is important what it is based on. Do not rank Stalin and Zhukov. Zhukov is on a par with Tymoshenko and Trotsky. Stalin did not like Zhukov and had good reason. Personal intelligence of Stalin, this is not a joke to you. No wonder the whole war and after it, there was an investigation into the causes of defeat at the beginning of the war. The conspirators had to be identified .... Do not rush to conclusions .... yes
      1. Superbandera
        Superbandera 4 May 2013 20: 38
        -2
        Quote: Stalinist
        . Zhukov is on a par with Tymoshenko and Trotsky. Stalin did not like Zhukov and had good reason. Personal intelligence of Stalin, this is not a joke to you. No wonder the whole war and after it, there was an investigation into the causes of defeat at the beginning of the war. The conspirators had to be identified .... Do not rush to conclusions ....

        Hugo especially if the main one stubbornly spied in the morning from the mirror.
        By the way, aspadin isstorik. you do not confuse Tymoshenko with Tukhachevsky. By the way, it was Zhukov who saved the first from execution after the ragrom of the NWVO troops. for which Tymoshenko sweat "thanked" him in every possible way smearing the name of the latter in the years after the war. Every time he insisted that it was not his fault - the People's Commissar of the KO at the beginning of the war, and later after the arrest of General Pavlov, the commander in this direction, namely Zhukov. Which for some reason did not want to take command, but on the move you understand ran away to command the troops of the Central Military District - where the "miracle" of this railway did not happen ...
      2. GOOD
        GOOD 5 May 2013 01: 14
        0
        so look ... what Zhukov and Stalin were doing ... from 8.06.41/23.11.41/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX ... ".. and each one individually .."
        1. Stalinets
          Stalinets 5 May 2013 18: 06
          +1
          Of course. yes
      3. Colonel
        Colonel 5 May 2013 09: 14
        0
        Zhukov is on a par with Tymoshenko and Trotsky. Stalin did not like Zhukov and had good reason.
        But you can’t develop a thought? Have you served with them, or have you read Wikipedia?
        1. Stalinets
          Stalinets 5 May 2013 18: 04
          0
          I read it, but not the wiki. There are places besides the TV where you can learn something. Do not be lazy. wink
          1. Colonel
            Colonel 6 May 2013 09: 17
            0
            The iron argument. Open the source for the idler. Or still can not forgive Zhukov Victory Parade?
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  • Stalinets
    Stalinets 4 May 2013 20: 17
    0
    The army knew how to fight. What confirmation is the 45th year. Moreover, the army survived and won, despite the betrayals of the commanding staff at the beginning of the war. Not everyone was shot in 37-38. So they opened the western front. However, we won. Russian soldier, the best soldier. This is a historical fact. It is a pity that there are no veterans left ..... yes
  • Superbandera
    Superbandera 4 May 2013 20: 24
    -9
    Quote: Wax
    Marshal Zhukov, Supreme Commander

    What fool did you run from? I made it clear to mine what opinion Zhukov was about "the talents of leadership" of Dzhugashvili in an excerpt from his memoirs above. By the way, it was Stalin who hacked at the root of Zhukov's idea expressed in Vasilevsky's "Thunder Plan" (compiled by the way in record time) of a preemptive strike against the Wehrmacht grouping with the main direction to Bialystok. In April - the deadline is the beginning of May 1941, just at the moment when it was weakened as much as possible by the transfer of troops to the Balkans ... As a result, the Red Army's terrible losses at the beginning of the war were simply terrible ...
    1. Proud.
      Proud. 4 May 2013 22: 16
      +3
      You, too, probably did not escape the "square-nest". The name "Thunder" simply could not exist at that moment. Code names, operational plans, began to be given only during the war. In May 41, Vasilevsky was only a major general and his position was very, very insignificant - deputy chief of the operational department of the General Staff of the Red Army. The so-called "Thunder Plan" was written by hand, on several sheets. There are no maps, no calculations, no graphs attached to it. Those. this is an elementary draft. It was signed only by Vasilevsky. Not a single other signature, no mark on it. It was a DRAFT plan. Here is what Marshal G.K. Zhukov answered the direct question of the historian V.A. Anfilov on May 26, 1965 about the aggressive plans of the USSR in 1941 (quote): "... it is good that he did not agree with Otherwise, given the state of our troops, a catastrophe could have occurred much larger than the one that befell our troops in May 1942 near Kharkov ... "
      1. Superbandera
        Superbandera 4 May 2013 22: 52
        -1
        Quote: Be proud.
        It was a DRAFT plan. Here is what Marshal G.K. Zhukov answered the direct question of the historian V.A. Anfilov on May 26, 1965 about the aggressive plans of the USSR in 1941 (quote): "... it is good that he did not agree with Otherwise, given the state of our troops, a catastrophe could have occurred much larger than the one that befell our troops in May 1942 near Kharkov ... "

        zvizdzh. Never a man like Zhukov could say that. And he himself, although not frankly, says that he always insisted on an attack in the Bialystok region. And it was not for nothing that the soldiers gave him a "chase" - "marshal - offensive". Zhukov has always been a supporter of aggressive actions both in war and in politics - and faithfully adhered to the principle of "hit first", so it was not evil with Khrushchev wink Nikita Sergeevich preempted the predictor. And if you take a sober look at things, at the very beginning of 1941, after a rather unsuccessful Finnish campaign, the necessary minimum of combat experience was accumulated, and most importantly, in April 1941, when part of the German forces was diverted to suppress the uprising in Yugoslavia, an extremely favorable situation developed for the strike. Missing this time was a real crime ...
        1. Proud.
          Proud. 5 May 2013 00: 05
          +1
          Dogmatic force! He spoke, answered a direct question, BUT ..! I could not, and that's it. It may have been a "crime" for absolutely crazy people, but not for those who have reason.
          1. Superbandera
            Superbandera 5 May 2013 01: 09
            0
            .bichesky power - this is about your pomelo. You will always find reasons to justify Stalin. Unstoppable before any lie. A preemptive strike was really necessary, and Zhukov never regretted it. And the words that in the current situation the Germans would grind parts of the Red Army, they just go back to a completely different time. When he was reproached for how early. of the General Staff, he did not do everything to bring up all available reserves and immediately transfer troops from the far east to the west. He said approximately the following - "if we did this, then in that confusion and confusion it did not help, the Germans would still grind these forces and then, perhaps, the battle of Moscow (his main merit) would end in a completely different way, because its outcome is once they decided on fresh reinforcements, which Zhukov was able to use as he planned without Stalin's idiotic instructions.
            1. Proud.
              Proud. 5 May 2013 04: 29
              +1
              You are "dear", watch your broom. I also know how to swear with "knees", and I can enrich your vocabulary. I have to draw your attention to the fact that people like you will always find reasons to demonize Stalin. Without stopping at any lie. Farewell. Further communication. with you, I think it's not productive.
        2. GOOD
          GOOD 5 May 2013 01: 19
          0
          26.05.65 ... yeah ... here is the first draft of Zhukov’s memoirs to be restored ... I remember .. in the whole colonel published in 43
          Khrushchev .. something somewhere REPORTED ... damn .. lied .. here senility ... old Brezhnev near Novorossiysk ... I'm sorry ...
          . although in politics that owl is about a stump ...
  • Stalinets
    Stalinets 4 May 2013 20: 30
    +2
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIawCzGiQw8 There is a good site "Stalin's Case", and there is Arsen Benikovich Martirosyan, a historian. Look and read! This is a link to the video with Martirosyan. This man has recently burned down the house, with the entire library. So ......... yes
  • zav
    zav 4 May 2013 20: 51
    +1
    Why didn’t the Germans defeat the Russians in 41?
    After all, on their side were:
    as A. Isaev writes: a proven blitzkrieg tactic;
    as Suvorov-Rezun writes: preparing the Red Army for an offensive to the detriment of defense;
    as Bunich writes: an all-out