Military Review

Cheetah experimental submachine gun

71



From the author
In the middle of March, at some forum, I accidentally found an image weapons, hitherto unknown to me and it caught my attention with its unusual appearance.
The shape of the forearm and the receiver cover resembled PP "Lynx" or "Vityaz", but there were also differences.
But it all said that the product is a distant relative of “Kalash”.
So it turned out.
On the pages of “Military Review” I did not find a single mention of this “trunk,” and therefore I decided to collect enough material for review and lay it out for the same weapon lovers like me.
In general, I nadergal from different places of pictures and a couple of paragraphs of text, added a little from myself and here you are, please: review about the experimental submachine gun "Cheetah" is ready.
Do not judge strictly on the quality and completeness of the material provided - it is better to share information if you have one.
Thank you!

prehistory
At the beginning of 90, Russia was swept by a wave of crime, and in order to counter it, law enforcement agencies urgently needed a compact automatic weapon of concealed carrying for close combat.
It required a weapon that had a killing power of a bullet and its tendency to rebound would be less than that of the AKS-74U.
It was then, at the request of law enforcement agencies, many design bureaus resumed work on improving the models developed in the 70-s and 80-s, and also began to create new weapon systems.

At the time, E.F. Dragunov began to refine the PP-1970 created in 71 for the Soviet Army and the Klin (PP-9) and Cedar (PP-91) were born.
At about the same time, the Tula, Kovrov and Izhevsk design bureaus created such small-sized software as Kashtan (AEK-919K), Cypress (AEK-919K), Cobra (PP-90), and Bison (PP-19) other.

In the middle of 90-x it became clear that due to the use of insufficiently effective ammunition (9x18 PM and 9x18 PMM) most Russian submachine guns do not provide reliable destruction of targets in personal protective equipment.
According to the opinion of the specialists of the research institute of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, it followed that out of this whole galaxy, only Bison could have met their requirements, if not for its screw shop.

The appearance of the light

Based on the changed requirements and looking back at the experience of their colleagues, the design team consisting of A.V. Shevchenko, G.V. Sitov, I.I. Sitnikov began, on his own initiative, to develop his own design.
The authors dreamed of creating a universal modular complex,
which, depending on the tactical situation, the shooter could use as a submachine gun chambered for 9x18 PM, a silent weapon for the 9x21 SP-10 cartridge or for the Thunder 9XNNXX cartridge specially developed for it.
And so that all necessary changes in the design could be made by the shooter himself by replacing several parts in just a few minutes, immediately before the start of the operation.

Cheetah experimental submachine gun

Sketch software "Cheetah" with a shop on 40 cartridges.


The joint development of specialists from the AOZT of the Rex armory company and the 33491 military unit was completed in 1995, and in the 1997, the experimental Gepard submachine gun was first presented to the public.
By that time, the “Cheetah” was tested at the Rzhevka training ground (33491 military unit) and the All-Russian Research Institute of State Patent Examination (VNIIGPE) received a positive decision under the number 95501070 (032975) from 02.11.95.


PP "Cheetah" with PBS. Right view.



PP "Cheetah" with folded butt. Left view.


Design features
PC "Cheetah" (known also under the names 9 mm submachine gun "Gepard" or Personal Defense Weapon "Cheetah") is distinguished not only by its memorable appearance, but also by the ability to use up to 15 (fifteen !!!) types of domestic and foreign pistol caliber 9 mm of different power.



"Cheetah", as well as PP "Bison" was developed on the basis of 5,45-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle AKS-74U, from which borrowed about 65 - 70% of parts.
It was assumed that such a high percentage of unification would allow, if necessary, quickly and with the least financial costs to organize the production of the "Cheetah" at the Tula Arms Plant, which previously produced 5,45-mm АКС-74У.
According to unverified data, the civilian version of the Cheetah could have been produced by the REX Firearms gun campaign from St. Petersburg, as if it were a subsidiary of AOZT Izhmash.

The complete set of software "Cheetah" consists of the following parts:
barrel, receiver, receiver cover, gas tube with lining, handguard, butt, ergonomic fire control frame, magazines for 20 and 40 cartridges, trigger mechanism, replaceable firing units (gates), return mechanisms (replaceable), muzzle devices (muzzle brake-compensator-swirler-flame arrester, coupling, sleeve for idling, device for silent flameless shooting).



At PP "Cheetah", the sights of the open type, as in the AKS-74U, consist of a reversible rear sight on the 100 and 200 m and a fly, which can be adjusted both in the vertical and in the horizontal planes.

The barrel has original replaceable chambers, which allows the use of a wide range of cartridges, namely:

With a universal transition chamber:
9x18 PM all nomenclature (bullets with lead and steel cores, bullets
all-metal and expansive),
9х18 PMM (all nomenclature),
9х19 with a bullet of increased penetrability (RGO57 / 7Н21),
9x19 PARA (all nomenclature),
9x21 (RGO52),
9х21 (РГО54 / 7Н29 / СП-10) with a bullet of increased penetrability.
* I ask Kirill Karasik to correct it: he was 2 years ago about special rounds.

With the chambered chambered for 9х30 "Thunder" (developed in the 33491 military unit):
9x30 "PP" - with a bullet of increased penetrability,
9х30 "BT" - with an armor-piercing tracer bullet,
9х30 "PS" - with a lead core bullet,
9х30 "PB" - with subsonic bullet speed

The software company “Cheetah” exceeded both the accuracy of a single fire and the accuracy of firing in short bursts (3-5 shots) of most of the existing domestic submachine guns.
The advantages of accuracy are achieved through the use of a rational layout of a submachine gun, placing the frame handle under the center of mass of the weapon, as well as using an effective muzzle brake-compensator-swirler, and in automation - balanced shooting interchangeable units (gates), a rigid fixed butt (folding on left side), a trigger trigger, similar to the AK74, a special design of the barrel bore (weakly pronounced cone to the muzzle part, rational steepness of call).




The radius of dispersion of hits at distances 50 and 100 m.
Photos from the bourgeois press.



The distance of confident destruction of targets in body armor.
Photos from the bourgeois press.



Another table with the statistics of slaughter from the bourgeois press.


To solve various special tasks, the Cheetah PP had interchangeable firing units (shutters) that were easily replaced without special tools and tools.

For shooting 9 mm cartridges 9x18 PM used the shooting unit number 1, which was a free gate, consisting directly of the bolt body and the inertial mass (frame). The frame had a lightweight gas piston, which made it possible to impart an additional impetus to the frame, using the energy of the powder gases discharged through the vent hole in the barrel into the gas chamber.
The use of combined automation (free gate with removal of powder gases) made it possible to ensure trouble-free operation of automation in various climatic conditions in the temperature range - 50 ° С ... + 50 ° С.

For firing 9-mm cartridges 9x18 PMM, 9x19 PARA, 9x19 WG057
, a shooting unit No. 2 was used, which was a unit No. 1 with a heavy additional replaceable gas piston and a return mechanism No. 2 with a spring with increased preload force.

For shooting 9-mm cartridges 9x21 РГ052, РГ054 (СП10)
used the shooting unit number 3, which was a semi-free shutter, consisting directly of the shaft of the shutter rotating around the longitudinal axis and the inertial accelerated mass (frame).
The frame had a lightweight gas piston, which made it possible to impart an additional impetus to the frame, using the energy of powder gases, similar to the firing unit No. 1.
The shutter had two lugs with an inclination of 40 degrees.
In the extreme forward position, the bolt turned to the right with the figured protrusion of the frame and the lining stops of the bolt went behind the lugs of the receiver.
When fired by the pressure of the powder gases to the bottom of the liner, a slow turn of the bolt took place, the inclined lugs cooperated with the lugs of the receiver, the upper lug of the bolt interacted with the figured notch of the frame and accelerated its movement back.
An additional portion of powder gases in the gas chamber gave an additional impetus to the frame, which ensured trouble-free operation of the automation in difficult conditions.

For shooting 9-mm cartridges 9х30 “Thunder” A 4 firing unit, which was a bolt with two lugs, rotating around a longitudinal axis and a bolt frame with a gas piston (similar to AKS-74Y) was used. Automation worked by removing a part of the powder gases through the gas outlet in the barrel, similar to AKS-74U.
Additionally, before shooting, it was necessary to replace the universal chamber with the chamber 9х30.

The use of the powerful 9X30 cartridge made it possible to hit the enemy in body armor 6B2 * at distances up to 400m, which gave him significant advantages over modern domestic and foreign machine guns.
* ZH-81 (GRAU index 6B2) - the first generation Soviet splinter vest.

“Cheetah” had an original fire control frame, which allowed shooting using two hands or one hand in extreme situations, shooting from the shelter “blindly” with minimal risk from enemy fire to the shooter, from the hip, from the armpit, through clothing ( with hidden wearing).





Hidden carrying
The original suspension of the belt through the upper and lower swivels allowed the use of software "Cheetah" for concealed carrying with the magazine on the 22 cartridge.

Automatic fuse
The presence of an automatic fuse directly on the trigger (similar to the “Glock-17” pistol) allowed the translator to be translated into single or automatic fire while hidden wearing PP without sacrificing the safety of the weapon, which gave the shooter the possibility of a sudden opening of fire in extreme situations.

Two medium weapon
The versatility of the sample was expanded due to the possibility of fire under water to defeat the enemy at distances 3-5m using 9х19 РГ057, 9х21 РГ052 and 9х21 РГ054 (JV 10) cartridges.
The presence of a flameless silent firing device made it possible to perform special tasks from the 9-mm “Cheetah” software silently, minimizing the unmasking factor (sound, flame, dust), in addition, the design of the device reduced the unmasking factor (gas bubble) when firing under water and allowed successfully perform combat missions covertly in two environments simultaneously.

All of the above innovations can significantly improve the effectiveness of the combat use of submachine guns.
The creators read that the 9-mm submachine gun “Cheetah” most fully met the requirements of modern combat.

Combat application
According to unconfirmed data, the scanty number of “Cheetahs” came to some kind of special purpose unit for testing, and the 2 “Cheetah” seemed to be even “lit up” in Chechnya.

Reduced version
The unification of the submachine gun with the base model AKS-74U allowed without significant changes in the design of the software package “Cheetah” to produce software “MINI-Cheetah” with dimensions of software “MINI-Ultrasound”, which allowed the use of a lighter and more compact submachine gun for wearing hidden when performing special tasks.

Civil version
The creators assumed to produce a civilian version on the basis of the Cheetah software.
The prototype was presented at the Moscow International Weapons Exhibition in July 1997 of the year as a hunting cheetah with a special cartridge 9х30 mm "Thunder".
It differed from the base model in an elongated barrel and the shape of the butt and was completed with an 20 magazine for cartridges.



Most likely, in the civilian version there was no automatic shooting mode and the possibility of using all types of ammunition.
A strange marketing move, to say the least.
Neither we nor abroad about the special bullets 9x30 mm "Thunder" have never heard of it.
After all, it was developed simultaneously with the PP "Cheetah" and specifically for it.
I think that it would be better to offer a version chambered for 9x19 PARA.
So a few years later, they entered Beretta: they produce a semi-automatic CX4 Storm carbine for a pistol cartridge.


Table with prices for various modifications. Again from the bourgeois press.





Despite the fact that first-class technical solutions are implemented in this weapon, it is unlikely that it will ever be put into mass production.
The complexity of refitting a submachine gun for various ammunition does not compensate for the advantages of different-sized weapons.
"Cheetah" has in the set at least three different valves and two return springs, with which the arrow will have to suffer.
Moreover, in Russia there are weapon systems that have already been adopted and are in mass production.
They can also solve all the tasks for which this unusual submachine gun is designed.
Of course, some special-purpose units, which will have to be in the territory controlled by the enemy for a long time, may like such weapons, which can use the most diverse types of 9 mm ammunition.

In general, as with all such systems, the practical use of the Cheetah is many times greater than all the advantages offered by weapons, allowing the use of various types of ammunition.
Also, do not forget that the shooter must carry a set of valves and return springs and remember that it fits a certain type of cartridge.
Simply, the “Cheetah” complex turned out to be too large (as a multitool) and difficult for the armed forces to use it in this form.



Based on:
http://fago.ru
http://lib.rus.ec
http://ru.wikipedia.org
http://mihaylovich-club.narod.ru
http://державники21век.рф
http://the-alpha-group.tumblr.com
http://www.specops.pl
http://forum.guns.ru
http://rus-guns.com
http://www.pmulcahy.com
Author:
71 comment
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  1. mark1
    mark1 April 5 2014 08: 18
    +4
    I probably missed something in this life. Please enlighten - in view of the different methods of measuring caliber in the USSR and in the West, the actual diameter of the bullets differs by 0,2 mm (9,2 mm Makarov - 9,0 mm pairs), is it possible to shoot from the same barrel equally well without harm for the last?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Vadim-61
      Vadim-61 April 5 2014 09: 32
      +4
      the article mentions
      special design of the bore (weakly pronounced cone to the muzzle, the rational slope of the rifling).
      - maybe this determines the omnivorous ammunition.
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 5 2014 09: 58
        +1
        Quote: Vadim-61
        the article mentions
        special design of the bore (weakly pronounced cone to the muzzle, the rational slope of the rifling).
        - maybe this determines the omnivorous patrono

        It is unlikely that this somehow strongly solves the problem when using Western cartridges (I’ll call it not quite correctly - bullet obturation) - at the beginning of the shot a gas breakthrough is still present, some kind of revolving problems are obtained. In the case of the Makarov cartridge, increased barrel wear.
    3. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 5 2014 09: 49
      +9
      As Vadim-61 wrote above, this is possible. That's just such a trunk will be significantly more complicated and, accordingly, more expensive. And the resource of such a trunk will be significantly less. If you add also replaceable chambers, the product is almost enchanting.
      In general, any universal tool can perform many functions, but everything is equally bad.
    4. dustycat
      dustycat April 5 2014 18: 57
      +1
      Quote: mark1
      9,2 mm Makarov - 9,0 mm steam

      It depends on how you measure the caliber.
      If the diameter of the cutting base is 9,2
      If the diameter of the cutting vertices is 9,0

      In fact, it is one and the same caliber.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 5 2014 21: 18
        +9
        Yeah. But the diameter of bullets is different for 9x19Par - 9mm, for 9x18PM - 9,2mm.
        And all because the bourgeoisie measure caliber by rifling, and in Russia - by field.
      2. allexx83
        allexx83 April 5 2014 23: 32
        +7
        As well as 5,45 and 5,56
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 6 2014 13: 43
          0
          And here is almost equality. The diameter of the bullet 5,56x45 - 5,7mm, the diameter of the bullet 5,45x39 - 5,62.
    5. Midshipman
      Midshipman April 7 2014 09: 36
      0
      The diameter of the rifling is measured differently in our country and abroad - we have along the ridges, they have along the hollows of the rifling
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 7 2014 15: 42
        0
        How old are you?
        There are no "ridges" and "depressions". Caliber can be measured only by grooves or by fields. This is such an axiom in our Euclidean geometry.
  2. SLX
    SLX April 5 2014 08: 27
    .
    Another neat child of the Kalashnikov clan, about which they wrote with enthusiasm in the late 90s. And the first publication about this next misunderstanding in the popular weapons press appeared, most likely, in the St. Petersburg magazine "Shotgun. Weapons and Ammunition".
    1. Mister X
      April 5 2014 19: 07
      +17
      Did you specifically register on the site just to crash this comment?
      1. SLX
        SLX April 6 2014 01: 03
        .
        And why didn’t you like my comment so much? The lack of enthusiasm for the obviously vicious, and therefore stillborn, child, or the lack of due reverence for the Kalashnikov clan?
        1. VNP1958PVN
          VNP1958PVN April 7 2014 02: 56
          -2
          You can’t understand what Kalashnikov is and what a clan is!
          1. SLX
            SLX April 7 2014 09: 26
            +1
            Quote: VNP1958PVN
            You can’t understand what Kalashnikov is and what a clan is!


            "You"? Did we drink with you at brotherhood? Can you remind me where and when?

            And, judging by your posts, you obviously will not have enough even basic knowledge on the history of Soviet small arms to tell me something new about who Kalashnikov is, what his clan is and what I don’t understand.
  3. sv68
    sv68 April 5 2014 08: 57
    +1
    it was originally necessary to do it under the caliber 5.62mm. and so it turned out, alas, only the prototype did not go into series.
  4. Aleks95
    Aleks95 April 5 2014 09: 24
    +8
    At the forefront was the unification with the AK, which was economically justified at that time. It is interesting precisely as a transitional model from a purely military to the needs of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other departments, as a "link in evolution."
  5. StolzSS
    StolzSS April 5 2014 10: 11
    +4
    Everyone is so smart, and whoever at least held it in his hands ???
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 5 2014 10: 48
      +1
      But where are we, the poor and the wretched?
      But you, presumably, dragged this unit for several years?
  6. Argon
    Argon April 5 2014 10: 13
    +6
    As for the "Cheetah" itself, I won't tell you anything, in my opinion the range of used ammunition is too large. Even with the class of this device there are certain difficulties (it is rather difficult to call the 9x30 cartridge a pistol cartridge). I think the range of ammunition of a serial sample would be much narrower. , to mention the problems of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in connection with this weapon is rather frivolous, the "cheetah" is clearly from another, more serious tale. However, the economic situation in the mid-90s gives the right to life for this version as well.
    1. Ch0sen1
      Ch0sen1 April 5 2014 13: 08
      +6
      Well, why isn't the 9x30 pistol? .357 magnum in a 9x33 metric system is a completely pistol / revolving cartridge.
  7. padonok.71
    padonok.71 April 5 2014 10: 14
    0
    The civilian version is still that karkalyka.
  8. Sma11
    Sma11 April 5 2014 10: 47
    +3
    In general, as with all such systems, the practical use of the Cheetah is many times greater than all the advantages offered by weapons, allowing the use of various types of ammunition.
    Also, do not forget that the shooter must carry a set of valves and return springs and remember that it fits a certain type of cartridge.
    Simply, the “Cheetah” complex turned out to be too large (as a multitool) and difficult for the armed forces to use it in this form.

    The statement is doubtful. For autonomous, sabotage operations, I think this device is very suitable. For some reason, Austria is developing in this direction (Steyr AUG A3). And for ours?
    Here is another example of such a weapon - OC-27 "Berdysh" developed at the beginning of the 1990's by a group of designers of TsKIB COO under the leadership of I.Ya. Stechkina and B.V. Avraamova. And I like!
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 5 2014 10: 55
      +16
      Yeah. So I imagine the RDG, the fighters of which are loaded with removable barrels, bolts, return mechanisms and magazines under different cartridges. That's just the question: why the hell is a goat button accordion? The tasks of the RDGs as a rule (as a percentage in 90% of cases) are not solved by small arms. RDGs were not initially imprisoned for firing combat. Their task is to quietly come, make the warrior fun and just as quietly leave. All.
      1. Argon
        Argon April 5 2014 12: 36
        +2
        We are talking about something completely different, for example, the same specialists in the "Orange revolutions" or "partisans" (in Soviet times, the organization of national liberation movements was called) at the initial stage should act autonomously for a relatively long time, and in case of failure of the "project" are forced to get out with extremely limited outside support. There is also a certain specialist in the shadow cover of diplomatic missions in regions with an unstable military-political situation.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 5 2014 15: 29
          0
          The question is the same: why the hell is a goat button accordion?
          1. Specialists on "orange revolutions" do not need such a transformer. They have completely different tasks, and at the place of events to "overthrow the dictatorship" of weapons, as well as cartridges of common calibers in excess. But the presence of exotic ammunition such as 9x30 or 9x21 is very unlikely.
          2. Any partisan movement in the absence of active support from outside is very quickly localized and stops and there is usually no one to get out there. About sabotage activities of such units see above.
          3. In the case of shadow cover of diplomatic missions, or even more so, it is not logical to use exclusive weapons, God forbid, it will go to the enemy ...
      2. dustycat
        dustycat April 5 2014 19: 07
        +2
        Quote: anomalocaris
        So I imagine the RDG, the fighters of which are loaded with removable barrels, bolts, return mechanisms and magazines under different cartridges.

        I don’t see a problem setting up a familiar weapon on the basis of the main theater cartridge.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 5 2014 21: 08
          0
          I don’t see any problems taking on the basis of the weapons necessary for solving specific tasks, given a particular RDG. For a professional, ANY weapon should be familiar.
          And most importantly, I highly recommend reading the posts to the end.
      3. Sma11
        Sma11 April 6 2014 10: 20
        +1
        The service comes to mind. In connection with new trends in the army, all personnel were given personal weapons. Mostly PM, some of the fighters received PM. We went to the shooting range every week. Everything seems to be fine. But! Shooting from personal weapons was canceled for such reasons. Not enough ammunition for the PM, not enough cartridges for the PM. That is, in 30% of the shooting was conducted not from personal weapons, but from a neighbor's. The Russian paradox, however. So you think about such "constructors" as "Berdysh" and "Cheetah", but the thing is worthwhile.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 6 2014 13: 36
          -1
          This is called idiocy. From personal experience this disease is not treated ... But you learned how to shoot both from PM and PW.
          1. Sma11
            Sma11 April 6 2014 13: 52
            +1
            This is not idiocy - this is the army. And while there will be a large number of different calibers of ammunition, this mess will exist. I recall the recollections of WWII veterans when they brought the wrong caliber to artillerymen or tankers.
            But you learned to shoot from both PM and PY.

            Thank you good ... But I learned from many things to shoot in my life. And I judge about weapons from a practical point of view. Ease of maintenance and omnivorous. So the PYa that are supplied to the army is a rare "shit" especially in the field request .
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris April 6 2014 14: 38
              +1
              Quote: Sma11
              So the PYa that are supplied to the army is a rare "shit" especially in the field

              I know. I just very well imagine how and who makes them, and for what salary.
  9. Shav1
    Shav1 April 5 2014 13: 25
    +1
    I don’t know much for the army, of course, but for the operational groups of law enforcement officers, that is, for "corridor" battles, it seems like nothing
  10. Bongo
    Bongo April 5 2014 13: 53
    +6
    silent weapon chambered for 9x21 SP-10

    Since when has the 9x21 SP-10 cartridge with an initial speed of 420 meters per second been used in "silent" weapons?
    1. Mister X
      April 5 2014 18: 55
      +4
      Quote: Bongo
      Since when has the 9x21 SP-10 cartridge with an initial speed of 420 meters per second been used in "silent" weapons?

      hi
      I think that we are talking about the so-called “tactical muffler”:
      PMS (Low Noise Shooting Device), aka "tactical suppressor-flash suppressor", aka "Suppressor".
      They suppress the noise of the shot to a value that is poorly distinguishable at a certain distance and, in addition, play the role of a flame arrester and a muzzle compensator.
      The use of a tactical silencer does not make shooting silent, but in battle makes it difficult for an adversary to detect a sound source and flash.
      The use of such devices reduces the sound level by 25-35 dB on average from 160-165 to 130-140 dB, i.e. in the best case, approximately up to the volume level of a shot of a sports small-bore rifle.

      Example: Steyr MPi-69 and MPi-81 software use 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridges for firing
      To reduce the sound of the shot at 30dB, the “native” barrel is removed and laid down with a special barrel and a sound-absorbing nozzle.


      ΜPi-81 with PBS. The suitcase contains the main barrel for "noisy" shooting.
    2. SPLV
      SPLV April 5 2014 20: 17
      +1
      Quote: Bongo
      initial speed 420 meters per second

      I apologize, but not so categorically. The initial velocity of the bullet is not an absolute value and depends on the length of the barrel, the design of the weapon (for example, a movable or fixed barrel, a locking method), the ratio of the mass of the bullet and the powder charge. The same 9 para can vary the initial speed in a wide range (from 300 to about 450 and higher m / s). Or 5,45X39 in AK-74 has about 900 m / s, and in AKS-74Y about 730 m / s. hi
      1. La-5
        La-5 April 5 2014 22: 37
        +3
        Here the threshold of about 300 m / s, the speed of sound is important, and between 900 m / s and 700 m / s in the case of using a "silencer" there will be no difference, the sound of a shot will be equally loud.
  11. vietnam7
    vietnam7 April 5 2014 14: 06
    +4
    The designers coped with the task - what they then wanted from them and got it. And what I do not like the bison, who really used it, share your opinion, what does the auger do not like? 9 * 30 was it worth fencing a bunch of rounds, next to 9 * 39 and all kinds of samples for them with the same dimensions?
    1. Mister X
      April 5 2014 17: 44
      +3
      Quote: vietnam7
      And what I do not like the bison, who really used it, share your opinion, what the auger does not like?

      Cyril Karasik wrote that he had a chance to test two Buffalo: one was almost new, and the second was badly beaten by life.
      Here is what he wrote:
      Failures arose, arose through the fault of the store, which was especially noticeable on the latest cartridges, apparently the problem was in the spring of the store. Outfitting the store does not cause any problems, but how long does this procedure take.

      Article "Submachine gun Bison in all its manifestations"
      Link to the article http://topwar.ru/24767-pistolet-pulemet-bizon-vo-vseh-ego-proyavleniyah.html
      1. vietnam7
        vietnam7 April 6 2014 07: 56
        +1
        Thanks for the link.
  12. Ilya Mikhalych
    Ilya Mikhalych April 5 2014 15: 07
    +5
    Steep barrel. I don’t know how good or bad it is in practice, but at least interesting. Article +
  13. Bayonet
    Bayonet April 5 2014 15: 22
    +1
    An interesting device. As usual, we learn a detailed description and characteristics "from the bourgeois press." And for our own - a big-oh-oh secret!
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 5 2014 15: 35
      0
      Well, in the bourgeois press, too, sometimes they write such things that at least stand, even fall. And about the big secret, tell me, do you know a lot about the experimental units that preceded the same G-3, M-16, StG-44? And how many conceptual models, which have never been continued, have you heard of the same USA, Germany, Italy, Japan?
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 6 2014 14: 41
        -2
        The child who has minus, justify your minus. I’m your minus to the female genital, but what do you disagree with?
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 9 2014 13: 41
          0
          The child did not respond ... Pichalka :(
  14. SAFON 1
    SAFON 1 April 5 2014 18: 49
    .
    Another Kalashnikov burping. All decent constructors should already be sick of constant copying. Really gunsmiths have become addicted? Or didn’t they really exist?
    1. Mister X
      April 5 2014 19: 29
      +5
      Quote: SAFON 1
      Really gunsmiths

      But critics and cynics will never translate.
      And we always had plenty of them.

      I would like to know your opinion on developments based on the Eugene Stoner AR rifle
    2. Ulairy
      Ulairy April 6 2014 18: 28
      0
      Quote: SAFON 1
      Another Kalashnikov burping.

      I would not say that. The presence of stamped parts implies cheap manufacturing and ease of use. And these are only pluses. An interesting machine with good accuracy for urban combat. We should know more about it, and then criticize.
      1. luiswoo
        luiswoo April 7 2014 19: 23
        0
        Quote: Ulairy
        I would not say that. The presence of stamped parts implies cheap manufacturing and ease of use. And these are only pluses. An interesting machine with good accuracy for urban combat. We should know more about it, and then criticize it.

        For the sake of justice, it is worth noting that from the TKB-517 Korobov, the PP would have turned out to be even cheaper, lightweight and technologically advanced, with greater accuracy. Although, if not for the weight, then in warehouses are generally "free"PPSh and PPS in large numbers with pretty decent characteristics. They can be altered under 9x19, as the Finns did in their time, or now the staff:

        In the video, it seems, the native Mauser cartridge, but this does not change the essence.
  15. La-5
    La-5 April 5 2014 22: 32
    +3
    I like AK as a machine gun and assault rifles at its base, but submachine guns at its base are not that. The desire of the army in universal unification often does not lead to anything good.
    1. Mister X
      April 6 2014 15: 25
      0
      Quote: La-5
      The desire of the army in universal unification often does not lead to anything good.

      The unification, or reduction of models of military equipment and their components to a rational minimum of varieties, was one of the main directions of development of Soviet small arms.

      Take for example the situation that developed in the mid-1950's. in the system of small arms of the Soviet infantry:
      In addition to a hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher, there were three systems of individual weapons (AK Kalashnikov assault rifle, SKS Simonov self-loading carbine and RPD Degtyarev machine gun), developed for the same 7,62 × 39 cartridge mm arr. 1943, but completely different in design.
      This negatively affected the cost of production and repair of weapons and did not contribute to a reduction in the timing of its development in the troops.

      As a result, the SCS and RPD were withdrawn from service and AKM appeared in the 1959, and the PKK was adopted by the 61.
      1. Reserve officer
        Reserve officer April 6 2014 21: 54
        +3
        Not from the point of criticism, but just for information. The air defense troops did not have machine guns, for some reason there was only SKS. In the late 90s, when I was still in the ranks, SKS was still in service with the air defense forces. And in the 80s, we, young officers, taught ourselves the techniques of handling a carbine - "to the leg", "to the shoulder", carried in the palm of our right hand, as in a parade, so that later the soldiers could be trained and we were not ashamed of drill with weapons before they were.
        If there is information when the SCS was removed completely, share it. In general, I have pleasant memories of this carbine.
        1. Mister X
          April 6 2014 22: 14
          +2
          Quote: Reserve officer
          If there is information when the SCS was removed completely, share it. In general, I have pleasant memories of this carbine.

          Most likely SCS was not officially withdrawn from service.
          They were simply replaced by AK, and SCS was sent for long-term storage.
          Here is what people write on this topic:

          In 2009, in Privozh-Uralsky, even Maxims existed.


          Everything that can be used for a mob reserve and located in long-term storage warehouses is all in service.
          As the replacement is transferred either to alteration or destruction.


          Currently, SCS in the army in full-time and non-standard companies of the guard of honor are used only as, so to speak,
          ceremonial weapons - for ceremonial parades, meetings according to the protocol of high officials, practicing and displaying combat techniques with weapons.
          Just like the gun carriage at the funeral of tall persons - after all, the guns themselves from these gun carriages have long been out of service.
          Traditions...


          SKS carbine remains on alert.
          In a number of parts of the valiant Russian army it is used to guard duty.
          It is also used in military parades.
          While the last SCS in service - the carbine is in service.
      2. La-5
        La-5 April 6 2014 22: 03
        +1
        Rationality is one thing, and when all small arms are made on one base, it is not good. The same RPD in its "machine-gun" qualities is significantly superior to the RPK. Also with PP - there are PP designs that are much simpler, more efficient and more ergonomic than those made on the basis of AK (with all the shortcomings of the AK itself).
      3. SLX
        SLX April 7 2014 01: 24
        +2
        Quote: Mister X
        The unification, or reduction of models of military equipment and their components to a rational minimum of varieties, was one of the main directions of development of Soviet small arms.


        Keyword: rational minimum. And the Soviet unification, as well as the two-cartridge system, smoothly, but very confidently, moved from a rational minimum to unification for the benefit of production and logistics, and therefore became insanity.

        Quote: Mister X
        As a result, the SCS and RPD were withdrawn from service and AKM appeared in the 1959, and the PKK was adopted by the 61.


        As a result, the USSR Armed Forces received a unified weapons system, but were left without a normal light machine gun, having received, first, the RPK manual submachine gun and then the RPK-74 with even worse performance characteristics.
        1. Mister X
          April 7 2014 11: 47
          0
          Many regretfully recall the RPD, but alas, it does not depend on me whether they will return it to the system or not ...
        2. Droid
          Droid April 7 2014 15: 02
          0
          RPK is a normal light machine gun, and RPK74 is even better. In the Soviet motorized rifle division, the heavy handbrake in FIG did not rest.
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris April 7 2014 15: 38
            0
            You simply did not have experience with the RPD ...
            1. Droid
              Droid April 7 2014 15: 51
              0
              Those who had experience with the RPD, more than all of us together, got rid of it as soon as the RPK worked. Troops needed easy machine gun, and RPD does not pull on the light.
              1. anomalocaris
                anomalocaris April 7 2014 16: 47
                0
                Nu-Nu ... You obviously did not have this experience. RPD is a full-fledged light machine gun, RPK is an assault rifle, slightly more adapted for firing bursts. And now the question: what is the mass of the RPD?
                1. Droid
                  Droid April 7 2014 17: 31
                  0
                  But this "machine gun" has the same combat rate of fire and ballistics as the RPD, and with a loaded drum it is 2,2 kg lighter than the RPD. 6,8 kg versus 9.
                  The question is, on fig RPXNUMX motorized rifle if there is a PKK?
                  1. anomalocaris
                    anomalocaris April 7 2014 18: 07
                    0
                    RPD 100 has an ammunition belt, RPK has, at best, a 75-charging drum magazine (have you equipped it at least once?). Once again I repeat RPD - this is a full-fledged machine gun. RPK - AUTOMATIC, optimized for firing bursts. The RPD has a combat rate of fire (according to the passport) of about 200 rpm, and the RPK has 120 rpm. RPK is not easier. Just compare the weight of RPD + 600 rounds of ammunition in tapes and the weight of RPK + 600 rounds of ammunition in stores.
                    According to the experience of recent wars, PKM is introduced into the departments. Without a doubt, a very good car, but for separation is too heavy.
                    1. Droid
                      Droid April 7 2014 18: 35
                      0
                      According to the passport, both have 150 rpm. Regular BC 300 rounds in both. And I do not see the need to have a machine gun heavier than the PKK in the MCO.
                      1. SLX
                        SLX April 8 2014 11: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: Droid
                        But this "machine gun" has the same combat rate of fire and ballistics as the RPD, ...


                        The issue is not ballistics and rate of fire - this is all secondary. RPD provides sufficient intensity for a light machine gun and duration fire due to tape power, a heavier barrel and rear whisper (which excludes spontaneous combustion of the cartridge and, accordingly, spontaneous shooting).

                        The RPK store food does not provide sufficient fire intensity, the lighter barrel (albeit weighted in comparison with the AKM) - its sufficient duration, and the front sear - safety. Moreover, despite the front sear, the accuracy of the RPK is 1,5 times worse than that of the RPD - and this is an "extra consumption" of cartridges.

                        The undoubted advantage of the PKK is a lot of reliability and the absence of such troubles as, albeit an infrequent, but regular lateral breakage of the guillah during wear. But the reliability of the PKK does not atone for its fundamental shortcomings.

                        Well, there is nothing to say about RPK-74 - in Afghanistan itself, it showed itself not in the best way.
                        Quote: Droid
                        ... and with the equipped drum it is 2,2 kg lighter than the RPD. 6,8 kg versus 9. Question, on a fig. Motorized rifle RPD if there is a PKK?


                        And do not engage in publicity stunts - you need to compare the weight of the machine gun with full ammunition, shops (boxes and belts), spare parts and accessories and the number of targets hit at "working" distances.

                        Quote: Droid
                        According to the passport, both have 150 rpm.


                        And for how long?
                        Quote: Droid
                        Regular BC 300 rounds in both.


                        Yes, completeness - this is b / c to AKM.
                        Quote: Droid
                        And I do not see the need to have a machine gun heavier than the PKK in the MCO.


                        Then, probably, a little war is needed to feel.
                      2. Droid
                        Droid April 8 2014 12: 37
                        0
                        Quote: SLX


                        The issue is not ballistics and rate of fire - this is all secondary. RPD provides sufficient intensity for a light machine gun and duration fire due to tape power, a heavier barrel and rear whisper (which excludes spontaneous combustion of the cartridge and, accordingly, spontaneous shooting).

                        They both provide the same duration, as the rate of fire for them and BC in stores / ribbons is the same.

                        The RPK store food does not provide sufficient fire intensity, the lighter barrel (albeit weighted in comparison with the AKM) - its sufficient duration, and the front sear - safety. Moreover, despite the front sear, the accuracy of the RPK is 1,5 times worse than that of the RPD - and this is an "extra consumption" of cartridges.

                        See above.

                        And do not engage in publicity stunts - you need to compare the weight of the machine gun with full ammunition, shops (boxes and belts), spare parts and accessories and the number of targets hit at "working" distances.

                        Yeah, no. RPK with full-time ammunition in stores (300 rounds) lighter than RPD with three boxes. And to carry in hands a maximum of 6,8 kg, or even less, is easier than 9 kg.

                        And for how long?

                        During the full shooting of BC in stores.

                        Yes, completeness - this is b / c to AKM.

                        This is a BC in equipped stores.


                        Then, probably, a little war is needed to feel.

                        Probably really some need to fight motorized riflein order to understand that in the presence of a BMP with a gun and PKT with a BC of 2000 rounds or, at worst, an armored personnel carrier with PCB (T) and KPVT, no RPD in the MCO in FIG.
                        There is no need to consider GRAU specialists as idiots, but modern CTOs as a combined arms battle. The competition was specifically for easy a machine gun, and it was carried out at a time when the rifle troops massively mounted on an armored personnel carrier with an easel machine gun on board and on the approach were BMP with a gun and a machine gun. In these conditions, they got rid of the heavy parking brake.
                      3. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris April 8 2014 16: 16
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        They both provide the same duration, as the rate of fire for them and BC in stores / ribbons is the same.

                        Oh well? .... I'm in SHOCK ...
                        Quote: Droid
                        Yeah, no. RPK with full-time ammunition in stores (300 rounds) lighter than RPD with three boxes. And to carry in hands a maximum of 6,8 kg, or even less, is easier than 9 kg.

                        Baby, what is the mass of the PKK? Without cartridges?
                        Quote: Droid
                        During the full shooting of BC in stores.

                        Yeah. Now take the time to replace the stores.
                        Quote: Droid
                        This is a BC in equipped stores.

                        Lying, baby, no need. You never ran from a PKK with a drum.
                        Quote: Droid
                        Probably, some people really need to fight with a motorized rifle in order to understand that in the presence of an infantry fighting vehicle with a gun and PKT with BK 2000 rounds of ammunition or, at worst, an armored personnel carrier with PCB (T) and KPVT, no RPD in the MCO in FIGS.

                        Nu-nu ... Here only these tales need not be told to me. The technique is very good, but it’s far from everywhere passable and destroyed in the first place. Accordingly, after about 15 minutes, the infantry remains with its bare ass.
                      4. SLX
                        SLX April 10 2014 09: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        They both provide the same duration, as the rate of fire for them and BC in stores / ribbons is the same.


                        The RPD has a higher combat rate of fire due to the difference in tape and magazine capacity. The duration (or mode of fire) is determined by both the barrel and the sear - the RPD has a heavier barrel, which heats up worse, and the RPK will engage in cross-fire long before the RPD. The RPK accuracy is worse even on a cold barrel, so it will reach the level of "white light" faster. Etc. Therefore, the amount of RPD allows a more intense fire regime.

                        Quote: Droid
                        RPK with full-time ammunition in stores (300 rounds) lighter than RPD with three boxes.


                        RPK is much easier when 1/2 b / c (and the entire wearable b / c 600 rounds for 7,62 mm machine guns) in box stores. But they do not provide sufficient intensity of fire. With drum shops, the RPK is easiest at 0,6 kg, in addition to the RPK in a poor CA, 4 shops were not given - only 3 and spin as you know.

                        Therefore, the weight advantage of the PKK is not as obvious as in advertising, it is not particularly obvious amid the deterioration of other combat characteristics.

                        Quote: Droid
                        And to carry in hands a maximum of 6,8 kg, or even less, is easier than 9 kg.


                        This is deep theory. In practice, the machine gunner will be loaded as much as the rest. therefore it will not become easier for him. And 9 kg provide significantly better accuracy. "Maxim" was oh, how heavy, but in terms of accuracy it had and has no equal - and this is the distance of effective fire, and consumption together with logistics.

                        Quote: Droid
                        This is a BC in equipped stores.


                        Materiel should be taught, and not argued about things unknown to you. Wearable b / c 7,62 - 300 and 600 rounds per machine gun and machine gun, b / c 5,45 - 450 and 900, respectively.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                      6. SLX
                        SLX April 10 2014 09: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        Probably, some people really need to fight with a motorized rifle in order to understand that in the presence of an infantry fighting vehicle with a gun and PKT with BK 2000 rounds of ammunition or, at worst, an armored personnel carrier with PCB (T) and KPVT, no RPD in the MCO in FIGS.


                        And you fought a lot with motorized infantry?

                        Quote: Droid
                        There is no need to consider GRAU specialists as idiots, but modern CTOs as a combined arms battle.


                        1). GRAU experts, on the orders of the party, substantiated a lot of things.

                        2). But the combined arms battle is the same one that is washed with armored tanks and boots in the English Channel? Isn’t it time to go down from the heights of the departments of Acedemian tactics to the sinful land, on which the Papuans have been chasing everyone and all the fourth decade? Well, or try to drive.

                        3). I am compelled to note that even in the departments of tactics it is believed that motorized riflemen must successfully operate in isolation from the "armor", and also that such actions in any war, even chew your ass.

                        Quote: Droid
                        The competition was just for a light machine gun, and it was held at the moment when the rifle troops massively mounted on an armored personnel carrier with an easel machine gun on board and on the approach were BMP with a gun and a machine gun. In these conditions, they got rid of the heavy parking brake.


                        Aha. And with tactical vigorous strikes we will pave the way to the English Channel. True, this oak doctrine yielded some sort of years in the 70s, and in the early 80s in Afghanistan for some reason it turned out that the weapons system of the SA (and not only it) - the very one that the GRAU experts substantiated - was not impudent Afghan mountains, but also very good.

                        Although there were attempts in the USSR - for example, the same topic "Poplin" (5,45 RPK-74 with universal power supply), which for some reason did not work.

                        And the adversaries - whose opinions should not be discounted, because they are not all done with a finger - for some reason consider it necessary to have a light machine gun with tape power. And we all go our own way, and regularly go into the wilds instead of paradise.
                      7. Droid
                        Droid April 10 2014 12: 06
                        0
                        Do you need the opinion of the conquerors? Here is the opinion of the lucky owner of the M249 SAW as a weapon of the squad. Separate quotes.
                        Ray Grandi is a 5th Grade Warrant Officer who has served forty years in the rifle units of the United States ILC, a participant in the Vietnam War
                        The ILC can learn from the Soviet Army, which in the early eighties decided to get rid of the 7,62 mm ribbon-fed RPD in its rifle platoons and replace them, correctly, with the Soviet AR PKK. RPK is the same AK rifle with a longer and heavier barrel, bipods attached to the barrel, a slightly modified butt (for automatic fire from a prone position) and a sector store of increased capacity. The Soviets understood the problems encountered in the power supply unit and got rid of them, returning to the basic concept of an automatic rifle. If you do not understand why they did so, contact any combatant veteran. His answer would be something like this: “tapes are too much weight and too much trouble. That's why". The Soviets thought of this and made the right conclusion. I am afraid that we will need to suffer senseless losses in various situations, so that it dawns on us that a light machine gun in the role of an automatic rifle is unsuitable.

                        I am sure that the apologists of M249 are fixated on the capabilities of the two hundred patron ribbon. I believe that this detail prevents them from seeing a large number of shortcomings of the M249 in the role of AR. Carrying a large amount of ammunition is not an end in itself for us, we need to hit the enemy with the ammunition that we have with us. Here is a quote from the book “My Rifle, the Faith of the American Marine,” Major General of the KMP, retired W.H. Ripertus: “We - I and my rifle know that this is not the number of shots counted, not the noise of shots and no smoke shots. We know that hits are counted. We will hit. ”
                        Recent comparative field trials of the M249 and Colt AR at the KMP Combat Prep Center showed that automatic riflemen hit more targets with less ammunition from Colt AR than from M249. Experienced gunners M249 SAW were involved in the tests at the 36 meter sighting range and the 103rd shooting range intended for automatic shooting. The tests revealed that the Marines successfully hit emerging targets from Colt AR. At an automatic shooting range, marines on average missed one or two targets during reloading the Colt AR. SAW gunners on average missed the rise of five targets during reloading. All marines participating in the trials eventually preferred Colt AR over M249 SAW. Shouldn't we listen to these marines? The numbers speak for themselves.


                      8. Droid
                        Droid April 10 2014 12: 08
                        0
                        My assessment of the M249 SAW is based on my own field experience. How many times have I seen the arrow SAW forced to stop in the attack to eliminate the delay? The nightmare begins after the feed tray lid is lifted to determine the cause of the delay. Often, the tape slides out of the tray and falls into the box. The marine is in a desperate situation. In addition to finding out the reasons for the delay, he needs to determine what to do with the tape. Is it necessary to shake this tape out of the box, or is it better to look for a new box? All this time he does not participate in the battle. His weapon does not work, he does not shoot at the enemy and cannot defend himself. His link continues the offensive, and the fire cover that he must provide is absent. So that in such a situation the shooter could at least protect himself, the ILC should arm the shooter with the SAW M9 pistol, as the M240 machine gunners are armed.
                        I do not see the logic in continuing to save the M249 system. As a light general purpose machine gun (general purpose LMG), it has its own advantages. However, in the role of AR, this is a separation problem. This is too heavy a weapon. It violates the interchangeability of the ammunition of the unit, it does not work very well with shops, it only shoots from the bipod and is usually carried in the “three position” (cartridges on the feed tray, the shutter in the forward position, the chamber is empty, the fuse is removed) when approaching the enemy due to that we are not sure about this system. These problems are complicated by the fact that it is still a very difficult weapon to master. Imagine the advantages of a situation when a rifle compartment uses weapons with similar characteristics, with the same ammunition. Imagine the benefits of standardizing M4, M16A2 and Colt AR. Every marine, male or female, it does not matter, gets acquainted with the Colt M16A2 at KMB. Having received Colt AR, in which the device is the same as that of the M16A2, it is easily retrained from a shooter to an automatic rifleman.
                      9. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris April 10 2014 15: 56
                        0
                        Well, I read this figure, well, laughed. And then what?
                      10. SLX
                        SLX April 12 2014 12: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        Do you need the opinion of the conquerors?


                        Always interesting literate opinions. Not even those who fought. And even if it contradicts mine. But I, too, am not quite a theorist, and I am one of those "who fought".

                        Quote: Droid
                        Here is the opinion of the lucky owner of the M249 SAW as a weapon of the squad.


                        The opinion of this "lucky owner" can be divided into two parts: about the tactical capabilities of such a weapon and about the jambs of a particular model.

                        You previously wrote that the tactical capabilities of such a weapon are not needed in FIG. But for some reason, they brought a quote that completely refutes your own views - "the lucky owner", even making a mistake in time (the RPD was abandoned much earlier for a dozen years), on the basis of incl. his combat experience just suggests that a weapon with such tactical capabilities is necessary.

                        And the shoals of a specific system are even more shoals of the adversary's school. Therefore, for example, the opinion of not unknown Peter J. Kokalis about the RPD in "Soldier of Fortune" 05/96 will probably be interesting to you - he did not notice similar problems with the RPD, although the RPD certainly has them.

                        Even less problems would be with the RPK-74 analogue with tape power provided that it had a really heavy barrel and a scientifically based system for cooling it - the caliber and locking system practically did not give lateral breaks in the liner, which is already a huge step forward. And the Soviet school has always treated the issues of nutrition with great reverence, therefore, such adversary schools are a priori impossible.
  • Massik
    Massik April 5 2014 23: 20
    +4
    It’s not clear what this rib in front of the handle is for, for stiffness or something, the butt could be made more decent following the example of the same Ksenia, this whole range of attached cartridges is useless, because each cartridge has its own trajectory, learns to target all types ?? ?
    Make a high-quality fit of the parts, roll up the barrel in fashionable plastic, hang picatinny rails, modify the modular system (so that you can hang 100 boxes with a long barrel - count a light machine gun), everyone will say "Wow Wunderwaffel" and start buying
    1. ermolai
      ermolai April 7 2014 12: 55
      0
      I’m certainly not an expert, but I allow myself to express the idea of ​​all this variety of cartridges, does not mean that each instance will come with a set of shutters, and other pranks, it's just that these are options, especially since it's all experimentation. the lead airplanes do not immediately get into operation in the final configuration, but the fact that greater unification with Kalash is a plus and not small, for some tasks you need up to the sound velocity of a bullet, for others it is better that the cops had one, say, Pms cartridge, and others, like probably so
  • SIT
    SIT April 6 2014 12: 14
    +2
    If we are talking about the hidden wearing and penetration of body armor, then they did it not for the police and not for the civilian market. Thought to sell to the west and hence the 9mm caliber? If they did it for themselves and not for police purposes, then why is the TT cartridge bad? Tasks where you need hidden wearing and at the same time destroy bulletproof vests, such a cartridge would be solved very successfully. The transformer is for fans of fans, so that every time they bring a brand new thread to the shooter.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 6 2014 13: 46
      0
      Quote: SIT
      If they did it for themselves and not for police purposes, then why is the TT cartridge bad?

      Very bad. It's too long range and the bullet is prone to ricochets.
      1. Mister X
        April 6 2014 15: 17
        +2
        Quote: anomalocaris
        If they did it for themselves and not for police purposes, then why is the TT cartridge bad?

        In the book "Military and Service Weapons" by Viktor Shunkov, I found the following phrase:
        After replacing the barrel and related parts from the Cheetah, you can shoot with 7,62 x 25 mm TT cartridges or American cartridges. 30 M1 and 45 ACP.

        But I forgot to add this information to my article ...
  • sub307
    sub307 April 6 2014 15: 22
    0
    In my opinion - a well-balanced "unit". Uzi reminds.
  • alex47russ
    alex47russ April 6 2014 15: 53
    0
    Beautiful trunk! soldier
  • Reserve officer
    Reserve officer April 6 2014 21: 42
    +3
    The article is very interesting. The author feels the experience of analyzing information and writing scientific and technical reports. Nice to read. But for the sake of completeness, I would also give in the article information about similar Western ones - there now similar developments are very popular - from the caliber 5,45 mm to the 45.
    Only here is one question in terminology - why a submachine gun? After all, sending the next cartridge is done using a partial exhaust gas, as in a classic machine.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 6 2014 21: 48
      +1
      Because it shoots pistol cartridges. And they tried to stick the gas outlet to the PP repeatedly, though it didn’t go beyond experiments.
    2. Mister X
      April 6 2014 21: 58
      +1
      Quote: Stock Officer
      The author feels the experience of analyzing information and writing scientific and technical reports. Nice to read.

      Thank you for the appreciation of my work!
      Quote: Stock Officer
      for completeness, I would also give in the article information about similar western

      I didn't plan to write because I tried to describe "Cheetah" as fully as possible.
      But on Monday there will be ready material about weapons for Stallone in the film "Cobra".
      Quote: Stock Officer
      Only here is one question in terminology - why a submachine gun?

      So the creators classified it.
      As the saying goes, "For what I bought" ...
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 7 2014 15: 32
        0
        About Yati-Matic? Already hit with a hoof.
    3. Garysit
      Garysit April 7 2014 17: 11
      0
      The piston is used as a guide. The principle of operation of automation is balanced with a free and half-free shutter, depending on the cartridge used.
    4. Garysit
      Garysit April 7 2014 17: 11
      0
      The piston is used as a guide. The principle of operation of automation is balanced with a free and half-free shutter, depending on the cartridge used. The author of the article used the previously published information as it is.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 7 2014 18: 12
        -1
        What are you smoking?
  • aleksandrs95
    aleksandrs95 April 6 2014 23: 01
    0
    once he himself served in the Republic of Dagestan, for a fight they can be assigned to sell their lives very dearly, but if they are reinforced with heavy weapons or similar support, they can wage a war.
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus April 7 2014 03: 49
    0
    Good article. The weapon is also good. At least for people not from the infantry.
  • Bongo
    Bongo April 7 2014 04: 29
    0
    Quote: Mister X
    I think that this is the so-called “tactical muffler

    Most likely it is so, but then, when writing an article, you should probably be more precise in the wording. Do not think that I am finding fault, but the phrase about the cartridge 9x21 eyes "cut" me. hi
    1. Mister X
      April 7 2014 21: 45
      +1
      Quote: Bongo
      Do not think that I find fault

      I will not consider it.
      Almost 3 weeks I collected and edited material, but still there were flaws.
      Well, I don’t know how to cook perfect materials ... sad
      1. Bongo
        Bongo April 8 2014 00: 37
        +2
        No one is perfect, I also have "bloopers" when writing articles. wink
      2. SLX
        SLX April 8 2014 11: 44
        +1
        The article, of course, turned out to be interesting - thank you for your work. It’s not a sin to put in a coffin. But your assessments of this miraculous yogi, excuse me, are very controversial.
      3. SLX
        SLX April 8 2014 11: 44
        0
        The article, of course, turned out to be interesting - thank you for your work. It’s not a sin to put in a coffin. But your assessments of this miraculous yogi, excuse me, are very controversial.
        1. Mister X
          April 8 2014 11: 56
          0
          Quote: SLX
          But your assessments of this miraculous yogi, excuse me, are very controversial.

          Which ones?
          What are the advantages of the Cheetah superior to its advantages?
          1. SLX
            SLX April 10 2014 07: 21
            0
            Quote: Mister X
            Which ones?
            What are the advantages of the Cheetah superior to its advantages?


            I, sorry, did not understand the advantages of "Cheetah". Even in terms of accuracy (doubtful at 9x30 because of its recoil momentum), it has no serious advantages. And all of its shortcomings stem from both the concept and the desire for unification for the benefit of dying production.

            But you started for health, and ended for peace. Those. started with the problem of weapons in the fight against rampant crime, and ended with the possible use of "Cheetah" in the RgSpN. But these tasks require substantially different weapons. The police (then still) sergeant-pep or traffic cop does not need two-average or multipatronism in FIG. And for spetsnaz, multipatronism is also useless.

            By the way:
            In the middle of 90-x it became clear that due to the use of insufficiently effective ammunition (9x18 PM and 9x18 PMM) most Russian submachine guns do not provide reliable destruction of targets in personal protective equipment.


            This became clear back in the early 70s, after repeated attempts to create a 9x18 PCB. Therefore, the topic "Modern" was opened in order to get a small-sized machine gun for the existing 5,45x39 instead of the PP. Therefore, the opinion of unknown specialists from the NIIMVD is somewhat strange.

            So for whom is this miracle Yudo "Cheetah"? Weapons are developed to solve a specific range of tasks, and not just satisfy your creative itch. And multipatronism is a feature for commercial samples. Accordingly, the advantages arise in relation to the tasks being solved, because otherwise there is a senseless dispute about which is better - a machine gun or a pistol.

            Well, and creative itching ...
            Despite the fact that this weapon implements first-class technical solutions,


            And what first-class technical solutions were implemented there? I read carefully, but did not see a single one.

            PS

            The authors dreamed <...> And that all the necessary changes in the design could be made by the shooter himself by replacing several parts in just a few minutes, immediately before the start of the operation.

            It would be fun to listen to the views of the authors of the miracle-yuda on conducting operations and preparing for them - like, they loaded the cartridges in front of her somewhere and let's change the details ... But the most interesting question is how to bring the weapon to normal combat and under the ammunition that is needed.
            1. Mister X
              April 10 2014 19: 45
              0
              As I wrote at the beginning of the article, I “pulled out a couple of paragraphs of text from different places in the pictures”
              Quote: SLX
              Despite the fact that this weapon implements first-class technical solutions

              This phrase belongs to Charlie Katshaw and is taken from the book "Small Arms of Russia. New Models".

              A good technical solution, I think, is installing an automatic fuse.
              The second good solution I read is equipping the PP with a universal store: it can be equipped with any ammo except the 3x30 “Thunder”. For Thunder, another store is attached.
              The third technical solution, I consider the possibility of firing under water cartridges JV 10.
              But the main advantage of the designers, I think, is the creation of not just another software, but a modular platform (like Steyr AUG).

              It is easy to talk now about what they could add to the design of their PP and what they could do to promote their product.
              I would not offer the whole complex as a whole, but offered ready-made solutions:



              Would you like to be able to fire cartridges of a different caliber?
              Then just buy the conversion kit: another shutter and return spring.
              Now many manufacturers are practicing this.
              A lot of advertising, participation in exhibitions and, you see - Cheetah would have found a place in the civilian market.
              1. SLX
                SLX April 12 2014 11: 54
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                As I wrote at the beginning of the article, I “pulled out a couple of paragraphs of text from different places in the pictures”

                Compilation from open sources is a completely respected work, if it is done qualitatively. Overview of the design you have obtained quality. The lack of answers to many existing questions - for example, the resource, reliability under various conditions, etc., is quite understandable, because it is unrealistic to pull everything from open sources according to the experimental design.

                But I’m still not so much about the review, but about the concepts of both the “Cheetah” itself and the PP of the 90s.

                This phrase belongs to Charlie Katshaw and is taken from the book "Small Arms of Russia. New Models".

                I have not read such books for a long time, and I don’t consider their authors as gurus.

                A good technical solution, I think, is installing an automatic fuse.

                AP have become commonplace for adversaries for twelve years, but in our country, to put it mildly, they have been late. Therefore, this solution can hardly be considered first-class. Moreover, there is again a "hole" in the concept - how can such a fuse get along with the "Kalashnikov" sector translator?

                In addition, the decision itself on the trigger needs serious justification: the PP is not a gun, and, for example, it is not a fact that for an army PP, a keyboard AP on a pistol grip will be worse. Dirt and snow, coupled with the Soviet / Russian temperature range, are a priori contraindicated to many beautiful solutions from adversaries.

                The second good solution I read is equipping the PP with a universal store: it can be equipped with any ammo except the 3x30 “Thunder”. For Thunder, another store is attached.

                Any versatility has to be paid for. And the feeding system has always been a rather "thin" place in almost any system. Therefore, what do we pay in "Cheetah"? At least overloading the stores at 9x18. And we must look at the numbers for the tests.

                The third technical solution, I consider the possibility of firing under water cartridges JV 10.

                What for? For the "Special Forces sailors"? So they do not need a rework weapon, but a purely special one, where everything is licked up and down - for example, instead of a "Kalashnikov" translator of fire modes, they probably need a flag or push-button.

                And for everyone else, including military reconnaissance, this is from the series "and we also walk dogs."

                But the main advantage of the designers, I think, is the creation of not just another software, but a modular platform (like Steyr AUG).


                This is very controversial, especially in the realities of the 90s. - PDW for adversaries, Wedge for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, etc. Therefore, the use of 9x18 was already vicious, 9x19 and 9x21 in the army were in question, and for the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB in TsNIITochMash they did the complex CP.1 and CP.3 ...

                Therefore, a heavy PP could become a bargaining chip, the weight and size characteristics of which would be justified by its power - i.e. 9x30, which had no analogues and in theory was able to compete with the AKS-74u, which did not satisfy not only the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but also the army rear. And neither the army nor the Ministry of Internal Affairs would accept modularity - it is not needed in line units in FIGs. Those. the authors of this child, instead of finding their niche (and they were enough then) and competing for it, tried to embrace the immense. And, of course, choked.

                It is easy to talk now about what they could add to the design of their PP and what they could do to promote their product.

                Initially, it was necessary to make candy, from which there would be delight. And the lack of data on the same reliability brings to mind.

                I would not offer the whole complex as a whole, but offered ready-made solutions

                Yes! 9x30, and nothing more. To start.
                1. Mister X
                  April 12 2014 17: 42
                  0
                  I am always interested to hear the opinion of a competent and sane person.
                  In many ways, I agree with you.
                  But since I haven’t created anything more complicated than slingshots and scarecrows in my life, I consider Kalash’s alteration an achievement.
                  But in my article about a little-known carbine from a famous manufacturer there will be no place for enthusiasm.
                  I will post it for publication most likely on Friday.
                  hi
  • Gunslinger
    Gunslinger April 7 2014 09: 09
    0
    I read about it at the beginning of the two thousandth in a book by some foreign author about Russian weapons.
  • Droid
    Droid April 8 2014 12: 36
    0
    Quote: SLX


    The issue is not ballistics and rate of fire - this is all secondary. RPD provides sufficient intensity for a light machine gun and duration fire due to tape power, a heavier barrel and rear whisper (which excludes spontaneous combustion of the cartridge and, accordingly, spontaneous shooting).

    They both provide the same duration, as the rate of fire for them and BC in stores / ribbons is the same.

    The RPK store food does not provide sufficient fire intensity, the lighter barrel (albeit weighted in comparison with the AKM) - its sufficient duration, and the front sear - safety. Moreover, despite the front sear, the accuracy of the RPK is 1,5 times worse than that of the RPD - and this is an "extra consumption" of cartridges.

    See above.

    And do not engage in publicity stunts - you need to compare the weight of the machine gun with full ammunition, shops (boxes and belts), spare parts and accessories and the number of targets hit at "working" distances.

    Yeah, no. RPK with full-time ammunition in stores (300 rounds) lighter than RPD with three boxes. And to carry in hands a maximum of 6,8 kg, or even less, is easier than 9 kg.

    And for how long?

    During the full shooting of BC in stores.

    Yes, completeness - this is b / c to AKM.

    This is a BC in equipped stores.


    Then, probably, a little war is needed to feel.

    Probably really some need to fight motorized riflein order to understand that in the presence of an armored infantry fighting vehicle with a cannon and PKT with a BK 2000 round of ammunition or, at worst, an armored personnel carrier with an anti-ship gun and an anti-tank drive, no RPM in the MCO in FIG.
    There is no need to consider GRAU specialists as idiots, but modern CTOs as a combined arms battle. The competition was specifically for easy a machine gun, and it was carried out at a time when the rifle troops massively mounted on an armored personnel carrier with an easel machine gun on board and on the approach were BMP with a gun and a machine gun. In these conditions, they got rid of the heavy parking brake.
    1. Massik
      Massik April 8 2014 18: 00
      0
      Yeah, no. RPK with full-time ammunition in stores (300 rounds) lighter than RPD with three boxes. And to carry in hands a maximum of 6,8 kg, or even less, is easier than 9 kg.
      You have to train, comrade, people with PCs and 1000 rounds of ammunition travel 12 km each, and you are already bending from 9, BMPs do not jump through bombs and minefields, but the enemy regroups due to the time gained (since it’s hard for you to drag a normal machine gun) hot ...
      1. Droid
        Droid April 8 2014 20: 05
        0
        First of all, you need to think. And then you already have people walking in peaceful fields. It’s not the time to advocate for the RAP, but for the work of the tribunal.
        The Soviet army had a well-thought-out system and there was no place for a heavy handbrake in the MCO. And the main weapon of the MCO was and is not the handbrake, but the BMP or, in extreme cases, armored personnel carriers. And if necessary, for reinforcing a motorized rifle platoon, a machine-gun compartment from a machine-gun platoon of a battalion / company or a grenade launcher can be given. And there are mortars, etc.
        1. Droid
          Droid April 8 2014 21: 39
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          Fucking intellectual input ...
          People walk in minefields.
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 11 2014 16: 08
      0
      Droid, Are you there who haven’t seen sweeter carrots than nichrome.
  • anomalocaris
    anomalocaris April 8 2014 16: 07
    0
    Quote: SLX
    Then, probably, a little war is needed to feel.


    Bravo. I can’t say better.
  • Droid
    Droid April 8 2014 17: 26
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    Quote: anomalocaris

    Oh well? .... I'm in SHOCK ...

    It would be why.

    Baby, what is the mass of the PKK? Without cartridges?

    5,6 with a drum and 5 with a sector.

    Yeah. Now take the time to replace the stores.

    What for? Do you know what combat / practical rate of fire is?

    Lying, baby, no need. You never ran with a PKK with a drum

    I didn’t run much with anything. AND?

    Nu-nu ... Here only these tales need not be told to me. The technique is very good, but it’s far from everywhere passable and destroyed in the first place. Accordingly, after about 15 minutes, the infantry remains with its bare ass.

    Does it atomize atoms? Even picking up a car can support it with fire, and if necessary, the FCT is perfectly removed from it. And how will the RPD help if all the equipment is destroyed, and the machine guns from the ammunition are removed from it?
    1. Droid
      Droid April 8 2014 21: 41
      0
      Casualty...
      Again auto-correction is strange.
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 9 2014 13: 38
      0
      Quote: Droid
      Even picking up a car can hold fire

      What baby did you collapse from? With modern VET, no technique will shine ...
      1. Droid
        Droid April 9 2014 14: 01
        0
        With such commanders, no technique will be reflected, and there will be a lot of work for the tribunal with the firing squad. One of the people sends to minefields motivating by the fact that the equipment does not go by mines, the other leaves people without the support of the equipment.
        They can burn equipment, therefore you will fight without equipment!
        By the way, you didn’t answer why you need RPD in the presence of PCT, what is on the technique, what is removed from this technique?
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 10 2014 16: 03
          0
          Baby, in the case of chago, I will have to kick you and people like you very painfully in the ass.
          You still don’t understand what is the difference between a single machine gun and a manual ...
  • Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 4 November 2017 23: 04
    0
    The ILC eventually declined the M249 and armed ALL M27IAR soldiers - which essentially means a shortened American PKK