Military Review

XX century. French Aviation Triumph

118

- How many French do you need to protect Paris?

- No one knows, they never succeeded.


The French are fighting it does not matter, but the French equipment is fighting well. Combat aircraft "Dassault Aviation" are distinguished by one major feature: each of the models produced has an amazingly victorious history!

When Soviet and American aircraft manufacturers were forced to "promote" their goods, using loud slogans, political levers, and even completely supply the Allies with rare technology in the form of "fraternal help" and deliberately bad loans, dozens of countries bought all French aircraft continents of the earth.

Reputation did not need the praises and stands of air shows. In terms of the number of wars won and air victories won, Dassault's aircraft did not have competitors throughout the second half of the twentieth century. Whoever sat at the steering wheel of the “Misters”, “Mirages” and “Hurricanes” - the victory was in his pocket.

The real benefit turned out to be more expensive than all political considerations: the French armed everyone who was willing to pay. "Mirages" were bought by pro-Soviet Libya, pro-American Australia, neutral Switzerland, and distant Brazil. And, of course, troubled Israel - it was the Hel-Avir pilots who made a deafening advertisement for French aircraft.

June 5, 1967 for three hours of hostilities Israeli aviation defeated 19 airfields and disabled more than 300 Arab aircraft. Those of the few who managed to rise into the air were again thrown from heaven to earth - Dassault Mister IV, Mirage-IIICJ and MD-450 "Hurricane" seized absolute dominance in the air.

XX century. French Aviation Triumph


The main character, of course, was the legendary "Mirage". Fighter with a triangular wing, which became a symbol of the rebirth of France from the decline and shame of the past world war.

I saw the "Mirage" - do not turn!

Soviet military advisers recommended the use of the following tactics: a lightning strike from a vantage point and an immediate exit from a battle in the afterburner, using the best thrust-to-hand ratio of the MiG-21. Otherwise, “the manufacturer is not responsible”: Mirage-IIICJ was not inferior in maneuverability to the MiG, while it had the most powerful gun armament (2х30 mm built-in DEFA guns against one 23 mm GSH-23). The smaller thrust-to-weight ratio and the limit on permissible overload (6,7g versus 8,5g in the MiG-21) were compensated for by competent tactics, experience and better training for pilots of the Israeli Air Force.

All this gave a logical result: July 30 1970, during the famous battle over the Sinai desert, Israeli fighters shot down five MiGs under the control of Soviet pilots, without any loss from their side.


Mirage IIIСJ 101 th Israeli Air Force Squadron with marks of 13 won aerial victories

Now it becomes obvious - the designers of "Dassault Aviation" managed to create the most balanced 2-generation fighter. Unlike the French, the Yankees hurried to bet on long-range air combat using rocket weapons - and lost. The level of technology 60-s proved insufficient to translate this idea into reality. Heavy "Phantoms" had a hard time in "dog dumps", where often the winner was a light maneuverable MiG. At the same time, the Soviet approach to building the 2 fighter generation also cannot be considered rational: the RP-21 primitive radar sight (later - Sapphire Radar) and only two short-range SDs - this was clearly not enough.

In contrast to the light fast-moving MiG, “sharpened” for fights at short distances using cannon armament, the French fighter was equipped with an effective missile weapon system:

- Thompson-CTF "Cyrano" radar with an instrumental range of 50 km (in the RP-22 "Sapphire" radar - 30 km, while the real range of both was smaller in 2). In addition to detecting airborne targets, the Cyrano radar had an air-to-surface mode: warning of obstacles exceeding a predetermined height and detecting radio-contrast objects on the surface of the earth;

- Mirage III was one of the first fighters in the world to receive an indicator on the windshield (HUD). The system under the designation CSF97 allowed to reduce the information load on the pilot, who now no longer had to periodically break away from monitoring the air situation and translate his eyes on the dashboard. Fighter piloting was simplified, its effectiveness in air combat and in the attack of ground targets increased;

- three air-to-air missiles, in addition to two standard Sidewinders with IC GOS, the Matra R.511 (or R.530) with a semi-active radar GPS and a powerful 30 kg warhead was suspended on the central ventral node.

Of the other French surprises, the Mirage standard kit included the SEPR 841 multiple activation rocket accelerator (or 844), which used nitric acid as an oxidizer (ordinary kerosene served as the second component). 80 seconds of solid fire! The practical ceiling of the Mirage lay above 22 000 m, the dynamic reached 29 000 meters.


Dassault Mirage IIIS Swiss Air Force

The tasks of a multipurpose fighter were not limited to intercepting air targets. Within half an hour, five technicians could turn the Mirage into an attack aircraft or bomber by installing a suspended cannon container, an extra 340 l fuel tank (instead of a rocket scout), bombs on the ventral pylon, and NAR units on the underwing points of the suspension.

A bright victorious history, high flight characteristics, perfect avionics, a wide range of ammunition, sets of quick-detachable equipment (calculators, PTB, equipment for aerial photography) - all this contributed to the fierce success of Mirage with foreign customers. Some aircraft, on request, could be equipped with an in-flight refueling system. There were special reconnaissance modifications with the “R” index, including the most advanced modification for the French Air Force - the Mirage-IIIRD with a side-looking radar. On the basis of the standard design was created supersonic "Vertikalka" Mirage-IIIV (however, not found success with customers).

The economic factor was also important: the Mirage-III was two times cheaper than the American Phantom (≈1 million dollars versus 2,4 million dollars in 1965 prices of the year). It was also easier to operate and less demanding on the quality of airfields (the pressure in the tires of the chassis wheels was only 5,6 - 9,5 kg / sq. Cm).

The French specifically took care of "our younger brothers." For those who lacked neither intelligence nor talent even to maintain a simple, like a stool, the Mirage-III, its more simplified version of the Mirage-5 was created.

Radar "Cyrano" replaced the primitive station "Aida", the total simplification were other components of the aircraft. Most of the "Mirage-5" was delivered without radar at all - the electronic equipment from the cabin compartment, where the additional fuel tank was located, moved to the vacant place under the nose fairing. The internal fuel supply increased by 32%, the maintenance labor intensity was reduced to ridiculous 15 man-hours per flight hour 1. The result was a cheap and angry means for brutal regional "showdown." The buyers of Zaire, Colombia, Gabon, Libya, Venezuela, Pakistan were also well matched ...

However, the Mirage-5 was not created for third world countries. Initially, the Israeli Air Force showed interest in this machine, requiring an unpretentious strike aircraft to operate in the daytime, in the cloudless sky of Palestine. After the embargo imposed on 1968 in Israel, with the help of Mossad agents, I stole technical documentation for Mirage-5 and set up its unlicensed production under the designation IAI Nesher. At the end of the 70, Israeli cars underwent a major overhaul and were sold to Argentina, changing their name to Dagger. During its long career, the Neshery / Daggeri still managed to fool around in the Falklands, having bombed a dozen ships of the British squadron!


Dagger (Nesher, Mirage 5) Argentine Air Force. In the bow there is a black silhouette of the attacked ship.


The first pre-production Mirage-IIIA took off on May 12 of the year 1958. Serial production continued for 29 years - from 1960 to 1989. Various versions of the fighter were in service with 20 countries of the world. The licensed assembly of the Mirage was conducted in Australia and Switzerland, the unlicensed assembly in Israel (IAI Nesher and IAI Kfir).

Mirage III was the best achievement of Dassau Aviation. But not the only French masterpiece!

Ship hunters

It happens that losing a war is a real victory. For one beaten, two non-beat men are given — this is what the events in the South Atlantic have demonstrated, when the Argentine military aircraft nearly defeated the British fleet.

The Falkland Conflict (1982) was a new triumph for French weapons. And let this time the victory went to the enemy, but how beautiful they lost! All the world TV channels bypassed the shots of the burning destroyer Sheffield and the charred bulk of the Atlantic Conveyor helicopter carrier.



The Argentines had only five serviceable Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard and, to them, five Ekoset anti-ship missiles. Five shots. Three hits. Two trophies. Losses from the Argentine side were absent.

It is easy to imagine how events could have developed if all the 14 ordered Super Etendar and 24 AMoX39 Exochet missiles had arrived in Argentina! The British squadron would have fallen in full force in the vast Atlantic.

For the general hysteria around the death of "Sheffield" no one paid attention that the rocket hit the target did not explode. However, the reliability of fuses has always remained a sore subject for ammunition developers. The Falkland events once again raised the tarnished status of the French aviation industry to heights: orders for the Exochet anti-ship missiles fell like a horn of plenty.


"Dassault Breguet Super Etendar" Navy of Argentina

Of no less interest was the carrier itself - the Super Etendar supersonic fighter-bomber (the "Etendar" from French - the "battle flag"). The world's first specialized carrier of anti-ship missiles among tactical aircraft. Powerful radar "Agava", supersonic speed, in-flight refueling system, ground-based and carrier-based - there were plenty of trumps.

Fighter-bombers of this type are still in service with the naval forces of France and Argentina. The French "Super Etendary" periodically operate from the deck of the aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle"; the last time they went to battle in 2011, during the NATO operation against Libya.

Alas, the “Battle Standard” did not gain much success in the international arms market. In addition to the above-mentioned Argentina, the remarkable fighter-bomber interested only Saddam Hussein - in the beginning of the 80-ies. The Iraqi Air Force leased five French Super Etendars.

The reason for the weak export of the Super Etendar is in no way connected with shortcomings in its design. Specialized deck missile was not bad. But the French firm "Dassault" could offer customers something more interesting.

Proven killer

The rumble of aircraft engines, gushing blood, sand crunching on the teeth and shooting to the blue in the face - the war became his home.

The massacre in Western Sahara, the civil war in Angola, the Ecuadorian-Peruvian conflict Alto Senep, the child-Libyan war, the eight-year Iran-Iraq massacre, the Gulf war, the fighting of the Greek and Turkish air forces over the Aegean Sea, and again Libya, where during the civil war, the F1 Mirages were already used by both sides.



That was another masterpiece by Dassault, which absorbed the richest experience of the French aircraft industry. The old Mirage-III was revived in a new look: the classic layout, the new modification of the proven Atar-09C TRD, the modern version of the Cyrano radar (IV, IVM or IVMR) with new features and an increased detection range. Digital avionics, new precision weapons and high thrust-to-weight ratio. Combat radius doubled. Duty time in the air has tripled!

The F1 Mirage was adopted by the Air Force in 14 countries of the world. By the end of the twentieth century, multi-purpose fighter-bombers of this type were gradually superseded by the more modern Mirage-2000; nevertheless, the air forces of five states still continue to operate this legendary air-hit killer with their hands in the blood.



One of the strongest episodes in the combat career of the F1 Mirage is related to the events of the “tanker war” in the Persian Gulf: 17 May 1987, a single Iraqi Air Force fighter-bomber shot the American warship USS Stark.

The frigate lost 37 man of his crew, the total damage from the attack amounted to 142 million dollars. The Iraqi Mirage was able to escape retaliation without hindrance, hiding from F-15 interceptors in the airspace of its country. Vive la France!

In high tech glamor

Outside the XXI century. Dassault continues to amaze the world with its achievements.

The French are in no hurry to join the race to create the best fighter of the "fifth generation". Instead, they, without further ado, brought the Rafale multi-role fighter to perfection and won the “tender of the century” for the supply of 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force.



It is not known for certain whether the “Rafale” is the most elegant among all modern fighters. Disputes on this account have been going on for a single year. But one thing is certain: the French fighter-bomber is one of the most high-tech production aircraft of the 4 + generation (pluses can be put up to infinity).

We have before us the next reincarnation of the Mirage-III - the classic French “tailless” with GIP, which advantageously combines high flight characteristics and the most modern avionics.

Thales RBE2 AA radar with active phased array antenna (AFAR), aircraft voice control system and integrated Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) optoelectronic aiming system (OSF) - few of Rafal's competitors boast such equipment. Next is the “gentleman's kit” of any modern fighter, performed at the highest technological level: the SPECTRA threat warning system, coupled with an active jam station; secure data exchange channels, Damocles sighting containers, AREOS reconnaissance equipment containers and any other quick-release equipment upon customer’s request. 14 suspension units, combat load weight up to 9,5 tons!

The widest range of weapons: “Rafale” is able to carry and use almost any precision weapons created on both sides of the ocean. Laser guided bombs such as Peyway, Storm Shadow cruise missiles, AASM high-precision ammunition family, MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles, Exocset anti-ship missiles, all the way up to ASMP-A missiles. Cannon armament has not been forgotten - on the fighter, the 30 mm gun with 125 ammunition shells is installed on a fighter.

The young plane managed to acquire a solid combat experience that any of his peers would envy: business trips to the Afghan mountains, bombing Libya, shooting black guys in the African jungle (Operation Serval, Mali, 2013).

An excellent pedigree made itself felt: a year ago, the video of the Rafal training battle and (oh, horror!) F-22 "Raptor" leaked to the Internet. On the frames it is noticeable, as the Frenchman confidently hangs on the tail of the Raptor, the result of 4: 1 in favor of Rafal.

The old rule is still in force: "I saw the" Mirage ", do not turn!"

PS The company Dassault was named after one of the leaders of the French Resistance, Paul Blok - the brother of the founder of the company Marcel Blok. His underground name was Char d'Assault (from Fr. "tank").


Deck version of Dassault Rafale M


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  1. Takashi
    Takashi April 3 2014 08: 30
    +6
    "A year ago, a video of the training battle" Raphael "and (horror!) F-22" Raptor "was leaked on the Internet. The footage shows how the Frenchman confidently hangs on the tail of the" Raptor ", the result is 4: 1 in favor of" Raphael. " - and where can I watch the video, who will tell you with a link?
    1. Civil
      Civil April 3 2014 08: 50
      +11
      Yes, with the radars and the rest of the custodians, everything is in order ... Thales is a serious company
      1. Salamander
        Salamander April 3 2014 09: 53
        +10
        Rafal vs. Raptor, the battle itself is on from 2:20:

        1. badger1974
          badger1974 April 5 2014 20: 45
          0
          and now, attention, Salamander, answer me in relation to the video you provided, first, supposedly the battle goes on during the day, so you can clearly see from the horizon that the camera covered the entire sphere of space during the battle, the question is, where is the sun and glare from it? because there’s not a lot of clouds in the sky, the second landscape is completely devoid of details, although the current cameras give a very high resolution (see the fighter’s maneuvers from any aircraft — although you’ll understand what sport I’m talking about), thirdly, there’s no dizzy camera maneuvers during afterburning, and this is an unavoidable phenomenon at these tricks, you can still ask around, but that’s enough, I think that this is a military simulator-no more, and on the simulator you can simulate anything, even on Yak-z
      2. Fedya
        Fedya April 3 2014 21: 17
        +5
        Right! Saddam was convinced of this when the French radar, before the attack of the Americans, suddenly all fell out! And about rafal, so last year there was an article that they can’t push anyone into it! Or I'm wrong.
    2. Master_Lviv
      Master_Lviv April 3 2014 09: 46
      +2
      Google to help you.

    3. demon184
      demon184 April 3 2014 13: 07
      +1
      I saw this battle, however, very little is visible, only that the pilot with enormous efforts and overload hangs on the tail of the f-22, although it’s exactly f = 22 that I can’t pretend to say that the quality is not very good, shooting from the airplane’s camera .
      1. SkiF_RnD
        SkiF_RnD April 3 2014 15: 04
        +10
        In the video, it is the F-22A, it is quite clearly visible. There are no more aircraft of this silhouette. "35" all the same could not participate in the exercises, and it can be identified by the air intakes. Earlier, infa had already surfaced that "Typhoons" were also beating the "raptor", that the mattress mats were banging again, they were maneuverable, but that was not visible in battles. I would have watched the Su-35S duel against the Rafal. Su-30MKIs fight well against Europeans, so the Su-35S should be even better.
        1. Tyler Durden
          Tyler Durden April 3 2014 17: 50
          +6
          Guys this is Red Flag teachings if I’m not mistaken, hi

          Such maneuvers are specially simulated there, so that everyone can lead a story on the tail and train properly. yes
          NATO and they are teachings. drinks
          1. badger1974
            badger1974 April 5 2014 20: 51
            +2
            you forgot about the bill presented, 4-1 in favor of Rafal, star-striped do not allow allies, with a flag like you should know
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. cdrt
          cdrt April 3 2014 23: 09
          +4
          Quote: SkiF_RnD
          In the video, it is the F-22A, it is quite clearly visible. There are no more aircraft of this silhouette. "35" all the same could not participate in the exercises, and it can be identified by the air intakes. Earlier, infa had already surfaced that "Typhoons" were also beating the "raptor", that the mattress mats were banging again, they were maneuverable, but that was not visible in battles. I would have watched the Su-35S duel against the Rafal. Su-30MKIs fight well against Europeans, so the Su-35S should be even better.


          At MAKS 2013, Rafal flew. There, of course, the pilot was - ace, but it was very cool.
          The loop on the afterburner with a negative overload - looked great.
          As well as landing immediately at the exit of the Dead Loop.
          1. badger1974
            badger1974 April 5 2014 20: 59
            0
            Even if I did not see Rafal's performance, it was even stunning, but double "tumblers" and a combat turn on the "heel" or a prolonged flight at angles of more than 80 degrees of angles of attack - this is impressive, and the dead loops of Rafal (Rafka) are yesterday
      2. askold
        askold April 5 2014 20: 44
        +1
        ... X, x, x, x, x, heh and in French - "dinosaur, and you have a khan", but the pilot can clearly see more there.
        PS and our pilot would have expressed himself more strongly.
    4. Horde
      Horde April 3 2014 18: 11
      +2
      don’t go to the fortuneteller from the very beginning of the article, clearly sweet, Judas has ...
    5. cdrt
      cdrt April 3 2014 23: 07
      +14
      Here the author can be recognized by the first silly words.

      This is why the French are fighting it doesn’t matter?
      It seems that the whole story they were considered the most brave warriors in Europe.

      Actually, the PMV showed well.

      The fact that the country was overstrained and could not resist in 1940 is so ... it can be noted that in July-August 1941 only distances saved us, because the entire personnel Red Army actually died by the end of the Smolensk battle. Distances gave a pause for which they were able to collect reserves. In France, the geography was not the same, and demography too.

      And so ... Monte Cassino - a direct indicator of how the French fought badly.

      Yes, and, I remember, in the Korean War, where the French were very few, and there they managed to go several times in successful bayonet attacks on forces that were many times superior.

      With one battalion to repel 4 days of the attack of 4 Chinese divisions, stop the advance of the enemy, losing 250 out of 500 dead and wounded and destroying 2000 Chinese - a clear evidence of the inability to fight.
      Ага.

      The arrogance of an un-conquered author, who dares to make such estimates on a national basis, is surprising.
    6. Constantine
      Constantine April 4 2014 01: 37
      0
      It would be interesting to see the training battle of this Rafal with the Su-35S, for example wassat
    7. badger1974
      badger1974 April 5 2014 20: 19
      -1
      no one and no when, except perhaps a replay from any flight simulator with a simplified gameplay, in order to hang on the tail of someone, it is necessary to match the specific wing load and the thrust-to-weight ratio, and if we add to this the absence of a controlled vector thrust engines, in contrast to the rapt, then hovering on the "tail" of the rapt can only be dreamed of in the author's fantasies, since because of this, the rafik cannot "walk" at extreme angles of attack, but add one unpleasant tactical inability -to make a "knife", exactly like the worlds
  2. Yves762
    Yves762 April 3 2014 08: 36
    +6
    The article is filed without defoamers. It can become a serious fail ... if there is a likely raid of a certain group of Cients ... am

    I advise those who wish to still smoke this (a lot of letters, but worth it) - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/rafal.html

  3. tlauicol
    tlauicol April 3 2014 08: 38
    0
    good article. as about the Swiss good
  4. avt
    avt April 3 2014 08: 49
    +27
    Quote: Tlauicol
    The article is filed without defoamers.

    laughing “Whoever sat at the helm of“ Mysters ”,“ Mirages ”and“ Hurricanes ”- the victory was in his pocket.” - I read this and understood before the end of the article - the author Oleg and he found himself a new subject of adoration and But for what you can really respect the Franks - for all their successes and failures, they cling to their military aviation industry with their teeth and put on all European integration in the form of "Tornado", Typhoons ", in contrast to the same Germans who after the wars it is forbidden to engage in military aviation, but the Angles - who themselves simply liquidated almost everything. Here are the Italians, who, like the Germans, were screwed after the wars, they tried to flutter with training combat macaques, but did not rise.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas April 3 2014 09: 06
      +15
      Quote: avt
      But this is what the Franks can really be respected for - for all their successes and failures, they cling to their military aviation industry with their teeth and put on all European integrations in the form of "Tornado", Typhoons ",

      Gold words! For which I respect the French, it’s for originality.
      1. Ulairy
        Ulairy April 3 2014 20: 07
        +3
        Quote: Nayhas
        For which I respect the French, it’s for originality

        The French military aircraft industry is a healthy income item in itself. + You, of course, but ... and on the coolest technology can the French know how to fight? (question edge).
    2. Yves762
      Yves762 April 3 2014 09: 55
      +5
      Quote: avt
      unlike the Germans, who after the war are forbidden to engage in combat aircraft, but the Angles - who themselves simply eliminated almost everything
      - I'm sorry, but what about the Panavia Tornado (developed in the early 1970s) and the Eurofighter Typhoon (created in 1986, research on a promising aircraft began back in 1979.):
      Germany - 363 aircraft were built: 4 prototypes, 2 pre-production, 322 serial IDS Tornadoes, 35 serial ECR Tornadoes. In 2010, the German Air Force adopted Tornado fighters, upgraded to ASSTA 2.0. [5] On February 8, 2012, the Tornado fighter, upgraded to ASSTA 3.0, made its first flight. Thanks to the modernization carried out in the interests of the German Air Force, Tornado fighters will be able to stand in service until at least 2025. [6]

      Just Europe ... Oyds, after the Second World War and the subsequent Cold War, were out of shape. So they decided to cut pepelatsi together. Fortunately, the course contributed to this, which in the end brought to the EU.
      AnuraFages, deeply offended by the grabbers in 2 consecutive World War II (if Napoleon is still not remembered) and not really wanting to bend under the Americans, tried their best to rehabilitate themselves ... and didn’t really want to share.
      1. avt
        avt April 3 2014 10: 33
        +7
        Quote: Yves762
        - I'm sorry, but what about the Panavia Tornado (developed in the early 1970s) and the Eurofighter Typhoon (created in 1986, research on a promising aircraft began back in 1979.):

        Look and see that it was not created by the national aviation industry, like that of the Franks, but by a very euro consortium. Franks, however, clearly keep their national mark and, unlike airbuses, neither typhoons nor tornadoes are allowed close to them. Unlike the same English, the Germans and Italians are defeated countries with restrictions imposed on them from under which they very slowly crawled out and did not climb out of all. So in your question and the answer.
  5. oreh72
    oreh72 April 3 2014 08: 53
    -2
    Stupid and controversial article. The text is pulled in paragraphs from various sources.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 10: 29
      +8
      Quote: oreh72
      The text is pulled in paragraphs from various sources.

      Can you answer for your words? Or so they said only for a red word

      Which EXACT paragraph was "pulled out" and from which EXACTLY source? At least one example of such an outrage

      ps / there is such a program - checking the uniqueness of the text. There is no plagiarism on Topvar
    2. Mister X
      Mister X April 3 2014 17: 06
      +3
      Quote: oreh72
      Stupid and controversial article.

      Better try writing a good article yourself -
      and we will applaud you standing, with tears of tenderness in our eyes.

      But you don’t have to humiliate anyone, in real life they strive every day.
  6. Bongo
    Bongo April 3 2014 08: 54
    +12
    Combat aircraft "Dassault Aviation" is distinguished by one important feature - each of the released models has an amazing victorious history!

    With all due respect to Oleg Kaptsov, here he skidded too much! The Mirage III fighter can be considered quite successful for its time, the rest of the models did not shine by anything special and in their characteristics were inferior to both Soviet and American peers.
    The great achievement of the French, like the Swedes, was the preservation of the national aircraft industry and the ability to independently create and produce military aircraft. But those and others create planes that are not "breakthrough", as a rule they are late for 10-15 years. Just as the Mirage-2000 is not a full-fledged aircraft of the 4th generation, the Rafale is not the 5th generation.
    A detailed article about French aviation:
    http://topwar.ru/36873-francuzskoe-aviacionnoe-izyaschestvo-chast-1-ya.html
    1. Argon
      Argon April 3 2014 13: 08
      +3
      In general, I agree with you, respected Bongo. However, in the article and in the comments I was struck by the incorrect representation of the situation. "Rafal" is a 5th generation machine, like "Typhoon", our Su-47 and MiG1,44 can be put in the same row It's another matter how much they meet modern requirements for such machines. And here we need to go back 15-20 years ago, when, all over the world, work on the 5th generation was in full swing, the tone was set by the United States. And as soon as they showed the result, it became clear- the Americans again bypassed everyone on the "circle", I mean stealth technology. Russia and the Anglo-Franco-German alliance had to make a choice (each his own) either economy or combat effectiveness. Having the sad experience of an extremely long cycle of creation / delivery of the MiG-23, Russia started work on the back (at that time, a difficult, strong-willed decision). The Europeans had even more difficult time, they missed from the very beginning, their car was conceptually very similar to our MiG-31, only with a cruising "supersonic" and a powerful complex of active counteraction to the radar.As a result, the alliance collapsed, France left, but everyone chose economy. France started from the beginning, but in principle the emphasis was on universality, not super-maneuverability, not stealth technologies at a level comparable to the Raptor, Rafal never got it. However, quite progressive solutions and materials used in the airframe and on-board systems, engines and resource-regulatory indicators do not allow comparing it with the F-18, Su-30. In general, the conversation about generations cannot be conducted in the "plane" corresponds-does not correspond (life does not give such a luxury), the question should be considered harder, could not. And here "Rafale" looks like a beautiful monument on the grave of the identity of the national school of aircraft construction in France (If the intellectual potential is questionable, then the economic one is clearly not enough). Objectively, there are three countries in the world capable of creating a modern fighter and France is not among them.
      1. Bongo
        Bongo April 3 2014 13: 38
        +9
        Dear Argon, do you disagree with this?
        1. lx
          lx April 3 2014 14: 21
          +1
          contradictory plate
          no t-50 fighter. There is a flight prototype, the target EPR, which is indicated in the patent (! Super-duper technical formulation "average size of the order of 0,1-1 m2" :) is similar to Rafal
          the prominence of rafal in the ir range is less than that of a raptor.
          MADL for f-22 is generally paused. Rafal has long had
    2. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 20: 14
      0
      Quote: Bongo
      Successful enough for its time can be considered a Mirage III fighter

      "Successful enough" is false modesty. Mirage-III remained the best car in its class for 10-15 years
      Quote: Bongo
      other models did not shine anything special

      But what about the world's first tactical missile carrier SuperEstandar with the Exocet small anti-ship missiles?

      Or the formidable Mirage F.1 - in 1973 no country in the world had such an aircraft: a powerful, perfectly balanced fighter-bomber

      Finally, Rafal is one of the best fighters of the 4 generation (late period). With its own radar with AFAR and the widest range of weapons and pendant equipment
  7. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 April 3 2014 09: 00
    +6
    The French are in no hurry to enter the race to create the best fifth generation fighter. Instead, they perfected the design of the Rafal multipurpose fighter without further ado

    Very wise and balanced policy. Without extra show-offs and extra expenses ...
  8. Good cat
    Good cat April 3 2014 09: 02
    +8
    I would like to read the comments of experts, especially on the fact of the destruction of five instants with Soviet pilots. But the article did not like. There are no comparisons with competing aircraft, only sheer pathos.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas April 3 2014 09: 09
      +10
      Quote: Good cat
      There are no comparisons with competing aircraft, only sheer pathos.

      Oleg believes (and this is true) that the main indicator of the success of machines is their prevalence in the world. In this regard, the French, unable to impose their cars as the United States or the USSR jumped all over.
      1. Santa Fe
        April 3 2014 10: 31
        +8
        Quote: Nayhas
        the main indicator of the success of machines is their prevalence in the world.

        the results of their combat use!
      2. kplayer
        kplayer April 3 2014 21: 49
        +2
        Quote: Nayhas
        ... the French ... jumped everyone.

        - How can this be verified? What is not the F-5 versus the Mirage-3, and then not the F-16 versus the Mirage-2000. It was thought that it was about cost (including operation) and functionality (versatility).
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. kplayer
          kplayer April 3 2014 22: 34
          +1
          By the way, at one time the Anglo-French Jaguar did not appear in vain; in addition to the "mirages", a relatively cheap aircraft was needed to operate on the ground.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. kplayer
          kplayer April 4 2014 15: 00
          +1
          It is noteworthy that while creating the Rafale the French have finally worked on the versatility of the car. For comparison, a whole series of profiled modifications (excluding combat training ones) was created for the Mirage-2000: C - air defense interceptor fighter; D - strike fighter-bomber; R - reconnaissance and N - nuclear weapon carrier (specialized !? and even for this light class) + export.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 20: 23
      -1
      Quote: Good cat
      There are no comparisons with competitors

      The French were sold all over the world, the Soviet Su and MiG were given free of charge (we still write off billions of debts to third world countries)
      French aircraft won the war, Soviet aircraft lost them

      That's all the comparison. Millimeters of fuselage length no longer matter

      It happened the other way around, but much less often. MiG knocks down Mirage
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 4 2014 00: 33
        +4
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        French aircraft won the war, Soviet aircraft lost them

        You tell the Koreans and Vietnamese.
        I like Rafal, a frisky and stubborn fighter, here, in my opinion, the French are great.
        The contract with the Indians, as it were, did not go sideways to the French.
        Maybe it was not necessary about the French as bad warriors, everything in history was.
        Thank you for the article, along with topics in Ukraine, I even took my soul.
        1. Santa Fe
          April 4 2014 01: 23
          0
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          You tell the Koreans and Vietnamese.

          In Korea, a draw
          Loss of aircraft in Vietnam - 99% merit of air defense
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Maybe it wasn’t about the French as bad warriors,

          And this, Mikhail, is a tribute to the tastes of the local public (although their lightning defeat in Franco-Prussian and World War II gives a sediment)
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm April 4 2014 12: 19
            +3
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            In Korea, a draw

            So a draw with the most technologically advanced country in the world.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Loss of aircraft in Vietnam - 99% merit of air defense

            The merit of air defense is undeniably high, but if we consider the air battles, then the Americans have nothing to brag about either.
            If you have opposite data, I will study them with pleasure and I will be grateful.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            although their lightning defeat in Franco-Prussian and World War II gives sediment

            But how did they give heat to all of Europe under Napoleon.
          2. supertiger21
            supertiger21 April 4 2014 17: 58
            +1
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            In Korea, a draw


            Respectively!

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Loss of aircraft in Vietnam - 99% merit of air defense


            But here I do not agree. Of course, many more Phantoms, Tads, and Cruzeiders died from the air defense system than in air battles, but certainly not even 80-90%. Significant losses are attributed to battles with the Vietnamese MiG-21. Here the American fighter of the 3rd generation F-4 has nothing to boast of, because net lost to his Soviet peer.
            1. Santa Fe
              April 4 2014 19: 01
              -1
              Quote: supertiger21
              In Korea, a draw

              Respectively!

              Here it is worth recalling the British turbojet engine Ning - without those acquired. The documentation for this engine would not have been born MiG-15.

              This is what I mean - we often "hacked" foreign systems (British Nin, UR Sidewinder - R-13, the story of the Superfortress, etc.).
              The French used exclusively their own developments
              Quote: supertiger21
              Significant losses are attributed to battles with the Vietnamese MiG-21

              To be precise - percent 3-4
              According to official figures, the Yankees lost over 2460 aircraft over Vietnam from enemy fire (not counting the accident for technical reasons)

              MiGs, at best, shot down 100. The role of the DRV Air Force was negligible amid the success of the air defense

              By the way, the MiG-21 was not much there. MIG-17 and MiG-19 were much more common
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm April 4 2014 21: 55
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Here it is worth recalling the British turbojet engine Ning - without those acquired. The documentation for this engine would not have been born MiG-15.

                The Germans and the British began to develop the jet engine at about the same time, but the British didn’t work as long as Germany didn’t surrender, I think the French got something as well, the Germans handed over the technical documentation to the Japanese, but I don’t tell you about the American missile, so about who and where how was born is difficult.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                To be precise - percent 3-4

                In many sources, 320 aircraft are indicated, 9% of the total, but this is all the MiGs (17,19,21).
                There is an opinion (not mine)
                At the same time, it should be noted that F-4 Phantom aircraft had to solve unusual tasks in Vietnam: a heavy interceptor designed to defend attack aircraft carrier formations against high-speed bombers and anti-ship cruise missiles, F-4 was used to gain air supremacy in the air confrontation with a MiG-21 aircraft more suited to this role. Therefore, the defeat of the Americans is not explained by the mistakes of the McDonnell-Douglas designers who managed to create an outstanding combat aircraft for their time, but by the absence of the US light fighter for air combat capable of withstanding the MiG-21.
                Photo click
                1. Santa Fe
                  April 4 2014 22: 32
                  0
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  but the British somehow did not work out

                  But what about the Gloucester Meteor?
                  His first combat flight took place 2 days earlier than the Me.262 departure
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  Many sources indicate 320 aircraft

                  DRV aviation worked sporadically. 4-9% - other means brought victory
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  used to gain air supremacy in the confrontation with a better fit for this role MiG-21 aircraft.

                  Yes they were both "good"
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  and the US lack of a light fighter for air combat

                  It was. F-xnumx
                  Underestimated by the Pentagon

                  Picture: I, as an eternal skeptic, will give the opposite point of view)) Silhouettes of MiGs painted on the island of Midway
                  1. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm April 4 2014 23: 34
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    But what about the Gloucester Meteor?

                    What participated in air battles?
                    It is believed that the first successful "Meteor" was tested only in July 1945, maybe they did it themselves or maybe they spied on it, I can not say.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    DRV aviation worked sporadically. 4-9% - other means brought victory

                    The question was initially raised that Soviet aircraft lost the war. So I started talking about air battles and not about all air defense systems.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    It was. F-xnumx
                    Underestimated by the Pentagon

                    I agree. Somehow recently you asked a question why the F-4 did not show itself in Vietnam and vice versa in the Middle East, and so, along with the F-4 in the Middle East, the Israelis used the Mirage-III (melee aircraft) plus the specifics of the Arab character.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Picture: I, as an eternal skeptic, will give the opposite point of view)) Silhouettes of MiGs painted on the island of Midway

                    I’m not an Israeli to say that not one MiG-21 was shot down in Vietnam. Although it was possible to scream with foam at the mouth:
                    -Show the wreckage!
                    1. Santa Fe
                      April 4 2014 23: 55
                      0
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      What participated in air battles?

                      A dozen Fau-Xnumx intercepted
                      Naturally, all this is complete nonsense. Jet time is not here yet
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      and maybe spied

                      The Fritz ?! Whose BMW oo3 and Jumo 004 light up every other time? Arado-234 pilots were afraid of thrusting sharply - otherwise a guaranteed fire
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      The question was originally posed that Soviet aircraft lost the war

                      Everything is so, everything is so

                      DRV aviation actions loosely linked to Yankees defeat in Vietnam
                      Quote: saturn.mmm
                      along with the F-4 in the Middle East, the Israelis used the Mirage-III (close air combat vehicle)

                      The theory is interesting, but incorrect
                      The mirage fought fine without a phantom. Phantom fought beautifully without Mirage
                      The reason for success is thorough preparation with the frank connivance of the enemy
                      1. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm April 5 2014 01: 36
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        DRV aviation actions loosely linked to Yankees defeat in Vietnam

                        But still connected.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The theory is interesting, but incorrect

                        Do not be so categorical.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The mirage fought fine without a phantom. Phantom fought beautifully without Mirage

                        Not that beautiful, but together they looked better.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The reason for success is thorough preparation with the frank connivance of the enemy

                        I am inclined to believe that success is somewhat exaggerated, although it cannot be denied.
              2. supertiger21
                supertiger21 April 5 2014 14: 03
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                To be precise - 3-4 percent According to official figures, the Yankees lost 2460 aircraft over Vietnam from enemy fire (not counting the accident for technical reasons)


                Perhaps it could be so!

                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                MiGs, at best, shot down 100.


                On "at best" I ask you to throw off the link. Some F-4s, MiG-21s shot down 103 units. Loaded heavy Phantoms in close combat were much inferior to light 21s. When destroying many Phantoms, the Vietnamese used the effect of surprise. This is not to mention other downed Yankee fighters.

                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                By the way, the MiG-21 was not much there. MIG-17 and MiG-19 were much more common


                MiG-17s actively fought only until 1967-1970. MiG-19 was small and limited in use. During the last 5 years of the war, the main enemy of American fighters was MiG-21.
  9. fregina1
    fregina1 April 3 2014 09: 37
    +5
    Not the fact that India will buy this "junk"! As the saying goes, for such grandmothers you can get a heavy fighter and take a tough one! The main drawback of "Raphael" at the moment is the situation with Mistral fellow The French announced the possibility of breaking the deal on the ships, and the Indians wondered if they were such partners! So it’s not clear about these 126 Raphael! Maybe the deal will not take place! And the most interesting thing is that they tried to sell them to many and many nodded but they did not agree! And if the deal with India does not take place, then the khan of the French aviation industry on fighters, it is the French themselves who will close the lines! And the owner seems to be Dassault they also planted! So the article is good, the pictures are beautiful and the plane, if modestly, is NOT BETTER than everyone in a generation 4+! And I would like to watch a real fight of 10 Raphales and 10 SS 30!
    Well, I just really would like to!
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas April 3 2014 11: 37
      +2
      Quote: fregina1
      Not the fact that India will buy this "junk"! As the saying goes, for such grandmothers you can get a heavy fighter and take more abruptly!

      They already have a heavy Su-30MKI. India needs a light car. Grippen breathes in the back ...
      Quote: fregina1
      The main drawback of "Raphael" at the moment is the situation with the Mistral. The French announced the possibility of breaking the deal on the ships, and the Indians were thinking about such partners!

      Nonsense. India does not face sanctions. Even if they cling to the packs again.
      Quote: fregina1
      And I would like to see a real battle 10 Rafaley and 10 SU 30!
      Well, I just really would like to!

      Five years later, maybe in the Indian Air Force.
      1. typhoon7
        typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 53
        0
        I think the Hindus need Western technology. Our fighters are higher than the roof, but there are no western ones. Avionics, suspended containers of target designation, engines and weapons. I think in the future they want to release all this for themselves and for themselves.
    2. ilya_oz
      ilya_oz April 3 2014 11: 41
      +1
      The Su-30 itself is much larger and heavier, and the load is less. And on it there is no radar with AFAR ((
      1. typhoon7
        typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 47
        +4
        Well, there is no AFAR on it, so what? He will see Rafal much further and strike the first. AFAR plus but not a panacea.
  10. vomag
    vomag April 3 2014 10: 02
    +3
    Well, no, I think the SU-30 is a different weight category ......
  11. poccinin
    poccinin April 3 2014 10: 16
    +7
    so you can write about any combat aircraft. I’m wondering why Argentina didn’t explode anti-ship missiles "exoset"? The frigate Stark is also somehow suspicious of all this. Electronic bookmarks or slovenliness during storage? we should also check our anti-ship missiles from time to time. while there was no "serious war" it is difficult to determine the best aircraft, besides, the skill of the pilots matters. In WWII, our I-16s successfully fought against the "Messerschmitts" a lot, but still there were hot contractions in the sky.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas April 3 2014 11: 32
      +3
      Quote: poccinin
      I'm wondering why Argentina's exoset anti-ship missiles didn't explode?

      There may be several reasons, and factory defects and violation of storage conditions ...
      The latter is more likely. Such ammunition requires dry rooms with minimal temperature fluctuations ... Expensive equipment and weapons require expensive maintenance ...
    2. Hort
      Hort April 3 2014 14: 22
      +2
      The "donkeys" on the horizontal lines were very maneuverable, and they encountered the first versions of messengers in Spain, if my memory serves me right (or I don't confuse with the I-153). And quite successfully. But then the Germans changed their tactics - and the I-16 did not take out vertical battles.
      The British spitfire also faced the same problem - they also did not like vertical maneuvers.
      1. badger1974
        badger1974 April 5 2014 21: 24
        +2
        our "donkeys" also could not stand negative overloads, the criburator - his mother was so, the outflow of fuel and 62 was silent, therefore our pilots did not twist the reverse barrels, and the German knew about this, therefore the 16 fell into the trap in advance, only a reversal on a "penny" - but this is a defensive battle
        1. Hort
          Hort April 7 2014 09: 41
          +2
          huh, I remember the battle on the "Ishak" in the Il-2 toy: it went off in a dive, the engine stalled, I sit swearing, trying to start. As a result, it turned out that he planned and rammed the cabin of Yushka-88 with his belly. Surprisingly, he himself did not fall apart and somehow managed to reach the airfield laughing
          Oh, remember the young years or something - you need to put IL-2, weed))
          1. badger1974
            badger1974 April 7 2014 10: 41
            0
            cool toy IL-2, I have a golden collection of this flight simulator, it's a pity that this engine is not online, and what's there to say. don't even fight on the grid, Hort - respect you plus. how are those foca 190th?, for example, I had a question for the developers. Fock in the "like in life" mode requires the control of the propeller group like everyone else, in life he had full automation, for example, I was jerked to poke around with the radiator and edit with trimmers, the foci has neither one nor the other in life, and this dignity 190 -go in the toy falls sharply
            1. Hort
              Hort April 7 2014 12: 05
              0
              how is it no network mode? There is. And there is a server (though already Il-2, Battle of Britain + add-ons) Basically, there are two types of servers: "dogfight" and "world war". On the second, everything is "grown-up". So look;)
              I don’t know about Fock, I flew a little on the Germans - mostly only on dive repeat
              1. badger1974
                badger1974 April 7 2014 13: 32
                0
                I’ll look for ATP, because Belarusians' VoP-full-g, exactly like VoT, -I hate it, although I’ve been talking about it for three years now, if I’m in VoT under the same name
                1. Hort
                  Hort April 7 2014 14: 01
                  0
                  good, I’ll find it at my leisure) Although I’m only there in tanks, no, no, I’m from idleness. Pure relax your brain after work laughing
    3. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 19: 47
      +1
      Quote: poccinin
      I'm wondering why Argentina's exoset anti-ship missiles didn't explode? frigate Stark is also somehow suspicious of all this

      Destroyer "Sheffield" - hit 1 missiles, warhead did not work

      Ersatz-helicopter carrier "Atlantic Conveyor" - 2 hits, according to British data, the warhead of one of the missiles worked normally. The second - no

      Frigate "Stark" - 2 hits, the warhead of one of the missiles worked normally. The second is a failure

      The result: 5 hits - 2 explosion, 3 failure. It is difficult to suspect any conspiracy here (if there was intentional wrecking - there shouldn’t be explosions at all! Otherwise why should it be wrecking?) Ordinary factory marriage, reliability of fuses actuation is the most acute problem at all times

      In the end, why be smart with a fuse, when you can be smart with a radar seeker rocket (one mistake in the program - and voila, the RCC went into "milk")

      But here's the catch - ALL French anti-ship missiles hit the target exactly (unless, of course, they were shot down by the air defense system of the ships). To the carriers themselves - SuperEtandars no complaints. Powerful, reliable aircraft with the most modern at the time avionics. They still fly in Argentina.
  12. rubin6286
    rubin6286 April 3 2014 10: 24
    +8
    The nomenclature of the equipment, the composition and availability of weapons, and the tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft are essential, but victory in an air battle depends to a greater extent on the pilot's readiness, his ability to practically realize the capabilities of the machine laid down by its designers.
    The main thing for a front-line fighter is the ability to conduct highly maneuverable aerial combat. The design of the aircraft should be not only acceptable, but also rational. Designed in the mid-50s, Mister-4, Super Mister, and MD-450 Hurricane lost in the highly maneuverable air battle to the American F-100 Super Saber and our MiG-19. The Hurricane was completely unsuitable for aerial combat. On horizontals and verticals, he did not make any comparisons with the American F-86 Saber, the English Meteor F-8 and the Soviet MiG-15 bis and MiG-17 PF and was used as a ground attack aircraft in local conflicts. The French Votour, equipped with a radar and well armed, was a barrage fighter-interceptor similar to the Soviet Yak-25. The advent of air-to-air guided missiles and an increase in their accuracy changed the character of highly maneuverable air combat. The reaction time of the pilot to a changing situation and decision making has become significantly reduced. The use of the first missiles with IR GN was effective in attacking a target from the rear hemisphere. those. it was necessary to go "tail" to the enemy. Syrian, Iraqi and Indian pilots on the MiG-21 did this successfully, not only in relation to the French Mirage, but also the American F-4, F-5E, F-16 and F-15. It is significant that in 2013 in India, American pilots conducted a series of demonstration air battles F-16 and F-15 against the Indian Mig-21-93, MiG-23, Su-30s in service and were unpleasantly surprised by the result. It turned out that with a special coating, Indian planes are found only at close range and US pilots do not always have time to use weapons. especially in oncoming courses. According to the Americans, the MiG-21 small, fast and strong on the verticals remains a dangerous adversary. Our R-60, R-73, R-77, R-27 missiles are equivalent to the American ones and even somewhat surpass them in range.
    In war everything happens and it’s not so much in the airplanes as in the skill of those who were sitting in the cabs of these cars. The results of an attack by ground targets and air battles depend on their skill. Describing the battle over the Sinai Peninsula, the authors of the article for some reason did not write that the Soviet MiGs performed a training flight and were not armed, and the Israeli Mirage-3E also had a threefold numerical superiority.
    The Mirage F-1 was not designed for highly maneuverable aerial combat. This is an interceptor or fighter-bomber. Iraqi pilots successfully used it to attack ground and sea targets.
    The machine is in service with the Australian Air Force and has become much better after installing Russian engines with the MiG-29 on it.
    According to Russian pilots, the Mirage -2000 is good as a fighter-bomber. In a highly maneuverable aerial battle, it is inferior to the MiG-29 and Su-27. “Rafal” is interesting, but it was brought “to mind” for a long time and during this time the technologies incorporated in it became available to competitors. It is this and the high cost of the machine that impede its delivery to the Indian Air Force.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 20: 44
      -3
      Quote: rubin6286
      the authors of the article for some reason did not write that the Soviet MiGs performed a training flight

      Not training, but training
      These were first-year cadets who, for the first time in their lives, sat behind the wheel of a MiG-21
      Quote: rubin6286
      and the Israeli Mirage -3E also had a threefold numerical superiority.

      The irony of life is that the numerical superiority was just behind the Soviet pilots - 20 MiG-21 against 12 Mirage and 4 Phantoms of the Israeli Air Force

      detailed comment at the bottom of the branch
    2. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast April 3 2014 22: 35
      +3
      Describing the battle over the Sinai Peninsula, the authors of the article for some reason did not write that the Soviet MiGs performed a training flight and were not armed ...

      Yeah, everything is logical. But the Sinai Peninsula at that time was under Israeli control. But who needs these details?
  13. Alex
    Alex April 3 2014 10: 30
    +7
    If we compare "Rafal", so with the MIG-35.
  14. RPG_
    RPG_ April 3 2014 10: 35
    +2
    Well, maybe he prettified them, but they buy them. Perhaps the French were the first to sell aircraft (unless of course the United States and Russia) in the twentieth century.
  15. report4
    report4 April 3 2014 11: 11
    0
    Mirage IIIСJ 101 th Israeli Air Force Squadron with marks of 13 won aerial victories

    Very funny. "Air victories", sorry, over what? Were the pigeons shot?
    Yes, and 14 stars .. ERZhov craving for lies even then got out.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 19: 56
      -1
      Quote: report4
      "Air victories", sorry, over what?

      Not over anything, but over whom

      In the summer of 1970, the Israelis were confronted by the pilots of one of the best aviation regiments of the USSR - the 135th IAP, specially sent to Egypt to "hunt" the Israeli aces. However, the hunters suddenly turned into prey themselves.

      Soviet pilots in Egypt
  16. lx
    lx April 3 2014 11: 13
    0
    Quote: Bongo
    Just as the Mirage 2000 is not a full-fledged 4th-generation aircraft, so Rafal is not the 5th generation.

    Oleg, of course, is such a Kaptsov, but can you justify this statement?
    PS: I just consider generational questions to be speculative and with due desire and ability to discuss, you can bring many planes down or out of this or that generation :)
    1. vvp2412
      vvp2412 April 3 2014 12: 37
      +2
      You’re not especially curious here.
      The Americans came up with the concept of the 5 generation and, in fact, they judge everything by their concepts: low EPR, cruising supersonic without afterburner, and other parameters.
      According to these parameters, Rafal does not reach the 5 generation, like our SU-35 and other modernizations of the su-30 and su-27. Although, everything is built on one glider
      1. Argon
        Argon April 3 2014 13: 33
        +1
        vvp2412 you are not objective, the "topic" about generations arose not in engineering circles, but in the arms trade, as a marketing ploy. I agree that with the suggestion of the Yankes, but after all, we came up with the plus signs, aggravating, so to speak, the public "nonsense".
  17. vvp2412
    vvp2412 April 3 2014 12: 35
    +10
    Very similar to custom advertising.
    It is obvious for the most limited - that the level of technology is always in the background, and the level of training and skill of the pilot is paramount.
    In the hands of a monkey, the best technique is simply iron. And vice versa. In the hands of ASA and Lada - racing car!

    And the fact that the USSR pushed secondary aircraft - pi_desh! They gave up modern weapons!
    And the fact that the French are more technologically more advanced than Amers or our planes is an undisguised lie!
    1. postman
      postman April 3 2014 13: 37
      0
      Quote: vvp2412
      Very similar to custom advertising.

      The author (kaptsov) of the poor fellow does not know that the President of France has personally listed the Eureka / Tugriks to him. Poor fellow Kaptsov !! Check your WMR ...
      Quote: vvp2412
      always in the background

      Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq refute this
      Quote: vvp2412
      In the hands of a monkey, the best technique is just iron

      No doubt. (Photo of aces below)
      For 7 months of 1953, 139 enemy aircraft were destroyed in air battles (Korea). Losses of the 64th corps amounted to: pilots - 25, MiG-15bis - 78. The total loss ratio of the US and USSR air forces in 1953 was 1,9: 1
      / TsAMO RF. F. 64 James. Op. 174045. D. 186 L. 32

      memorandum of the Air Force commander Colonel General of the Air Force P.F. Zhigarev, Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR I.V. To Stalin. According to the specified document “In 5 air battles with MIG-15 aircraft numerically superior to the enemy, ten American B-29 aircraft and one F-80 aircraft were shot down. There were no losses of MIG-15 aircraft in these battles. ”

      Losses of Soviet aviation from June 25, 1950 to July 27, 1953 amounted to 125 pilots and 335 aircraft -can be compared with American
      / TsAMO RF. F. 16A. Op. 3139. D 157. L. 280-283.

      Quote: vvp2412
      They gave up modern weapons!

      For the market of third countries (not the Warsaw Pact) - NO.
      Not "second-rate" of course, but not the first freshness either. This is due not only to considerations of secrecy, but also to INFRASTRUCTURE, it is enough to visit the Armed Forces (or Air Force) of Egypt

      Quote: vvp2412
      And the fact that the French are more technologically advanced

      1. French aviation industry, country's largest exporter (80% of the total annual turnover of the sector)
      2. let's dig Zodiac (France) employs 20 people, with three quarters located outside of France, and out of 000 factories at least 46 are located in Europe and 39 in North America.
      3.company Aerolia, the French aircraft giant second place in the world on the development and production of bow parts of aircraft.
      4. Safran, its parent company, the LEADER in the aerospace, defense and security market, has 55 employees in different countries and is the world's leading supplier of landing gear, wheels and carbon brakes, as well as control panels for helicopters.
      5. The European Aerospace and Defense Group (EADS), the largest in Europe and the second largest in the world, is the leader of FRANCE.
      ==========
      France, unlike the rest of Europe, is based on OWN components and technologies and DOES NOT DEPEND on the USA, which allows it to work (in the field of armaments) directly with the Russian Federation, without asking the United States.
      It’s enough to just recall the nuclear submarines and ICBMs and nuclear weapons of France

      Prmi: France, unlike the USSR, did not "borrow" (with the help of ATR, GRU, KGB) American developments and technologies.
      Everything itself, in labors and worries ...
      Therefore, the French, well, at least technologically equal to the United States and the USSR (RF), and in some places ahead of both
      1. Santa Fe
        April 3 2014 21: 09
        -1
        Quote: Postman
        The author (kaptsov) of the poor fellow and does not know that the president of France, personally him

        Legion of Honor
    2. typhoon7
      typhoon7 April 3 2014 16: 24
      +5
      I agree, This is not the first advertisement of French aircraft on our site. What western cars have the advantage of is in overhead containers and KABs of GBU (what Hindus want to get to and what they lack) we need to develop this sector. As for the flying qualities of the cars, the latest modifications of the Sushki and MiGs have no equal and this does not need advertising, this is a fact.
  18. Thomas
    Thomas April 3 2014 12: 55
    +3
    Instead, they perfected the design of the Rafal multipurpose fighter without further ado and won the "tender of the century" for the supply of 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force.


    The article is written interesting! For this - a plus! But regarding the won tender, there was information that the cost of the aircraft for the tender was too low, and now the Indians are already "scratching their heads" about how to cope with the real cost of the aircraft.
  19. postman
    postman April 3 2014 13: 54
    +3
    Quote: Author
    The French fight no matter

    And when it was the other way around:
    - The military talent of the famous Napoleonic marshals - Bernadotte, Berthier, Davout, Jourdan, Lann, MacDonald, Massen, Moreau, Murat, Ney, Sult, etc. Napoleon Bonaparte himself, finally.
    -New conditions for recruiting into the army, the constant attention of military leaders, and especially Napoleon himself, to the morale of soldiers, maintaining their high military training and discipline, a guard formed of veteran soldiers

    -Results?
    ============================
    NAPOLEON'S WARS (the most worthy, strong, courageous die first, but the crap remains) + the era of rentier-parasites (T. Veblen: "rentiers parasitize in real production") led to the degradation of the nation, like warriors.
    Well, as an example:
    The Russian Emperor Nicholas II was a rentier, his personal income was composed of three sources:
    1. The annual appropriations from the State Treasury;
    2. Income from specific lands;
    3. Interest on capital stored abroad in British and German banks.

    result?
  20. Bongo
    Bongo April 3 2014 13: 57
    +3
    Dear rubin6286, in general, I agree with you, but this statement is perplexing:
    Quote: rubin6286
    The machine is in service with the Australian Air Force and has become much better after installing Russian engines with the MiG-29 on it
    Mirage F1 never was not in service with the Royal Australian Air Force, especially with a turbofan type RD-33.
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 April 3 2014 14: 44
      +3
      I admit that I was mistaken. I just mixed up the identification marks of South Africa and Australia in the photo. Thank you for correcting.
      1. Bongo
        Bongo April 3 2014 14: 58
        +3
        You're welcome hi But I have not heard that RD-1 would be installed on the South African Mirage F33, especially since these aircraft in South Africa have already been withdrawn from service.
        1. avt
          avt April 3 2014 15: 51
          +4
          Quote: Bongo
          But I didn’t hear that RD-1 would be installed on the South African Mirage F33,

          There was a proposal for the installation of our engines, even from the Yuarovtsy even, they even carried out work before the flight model. BUT request beginning of the 90s, everything was covered with a copper basin.
        2. rubin6286
          rubin6286 April 3 2014 16: 13
          +5
          In the magazine "Aviation and Time" No. 4 for 2005 there is an article by A. Kotlobovsky and A. Kharuk "Mirage F-1 - a classic of the genre"

          I will cite an excerpt from it: "The aircraft received an air-to-air missile system V3B" Kuri "with a helmet-mounted target designation system of local production. Since the second half of the 1980s, relying on the successful experience of modernizing the" Mirage "III (" Chita "), Arm-Scor engineers began working on a more thorough renovation of F1 Mirages. Subsequently, the elimination of the apartheid regime made it possible to lift UN sanctions, and the collapse of the USSR opened the way for military-technical cooperation with Russian enterprises. As a result, a project to equip the Mirage F1 TRDDF appeared. CNR-95 - a modification of the Russian RD-33. The first modernized aircraft entered trials in October 1994, but budget constraints forced the South African Air Force to abandon further work.Today, the Mirages have already been removed from service in South Africa; F1CZ - in 1992 ., and F1AZ - in 1997. As of 2004, 21 Mirage F1AZ was mothballed at Hudspruit airbase. "
    2. postman
      postman April 3 2014 14: 58
      0
      Quote: Bongo
      Mirage F1 was never in service with the Royal Air Force of Australia

      Mirage III O with Rolls-Royce Avon RB engine. 146
      и
      "Mirage" IIIE with Atar 09C engine

      On March 30, 1961, Australia purchased only 30 aircraft, designated as "Mirage" IIIO, the first of which (A3-1) took off on March 14, 1963, later the number of single-seat aircraft was increased to 100, and the "Mirage" IIIDO twin aircraft to 16 aircraft.
      52 fighter-bomber "Mirage" IIIOA and 48 interceptors "Mirage" IIIOF were manufactured under license for Comonnewealth Aircraft and the State Aviation Enterprise, under the designation SA-29

      The Royal Australian Air Force received the first Mirage fighters in 1967 (note and Italian Aermacchi MB-326 the same), withdrawn from service in 1988, 50 units and and 16 "Mirages" IIIDO = sold to Pakistan
      1. Bongo
        Bongo April 3 2014 15: 00
        0
        You catch the difference between the Mirage F1 and Mirage III?
        1. postman
          postman April 3 2014 15: 06
          -4
          Quote: Bongo
          You catch the difference between the Mirage F1 and Mirage III?

          and you know how to read?
          What have I written?
          Or fart loudly hotz?
          I wrote about MIRAGE F1? AND?
          1. Bongo
            Bongo April 3 2014 15: 10
            +2
            You shouldn’t be rude anyway, and deal with your own bunches. I have with
            rubin6286
            There was a discussion about the F1 Mirage.
            1. postman
              postman April 3 2014 15: 34
              0
              Quote: Bongo
              It’s not worth it to be rude

              never
              Quote: Bongo
              I have with

              Well, I supported you, so I asked
              Quote: Postman
              and you know how to read?

              and you are trying to poke me in the alphabet.
              Note: combat aircraft of all countries (including France) taught me to distinguish in appearance, performance characteristics, mark on the radar, heat label for 3 or 4 years
            2. rubin6286
              rubin6286 April 3 2014 16: 16
              +2
              I think that answered your question.

              Regards, Rubin 6286.
  21. lx
    lx April 3 2014 14: 02
    +4
    You control yourself.
    Quote: vvp2412
    You’re not especially curious here.
    The concept of the 5th generation was invented by the Americans

    proof
    Quote: vvp2412

    and in fact, they are judged by their concepts: low EPR, cruising supersonic without afterburner, and other parameters.
    According to these parameters, Rafal does not reach the 5th generation


    And Rafal has "low ESR, cruising supersonic without afterburner". Is there anything else?
  22. postman
    postman April 3 2014 15: 01
    0
    AFFFOR !!!
    Why not write about Dassault Mirage G?







    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 20: 00
      +2
      Quote: Postman
      Why not write about Dassault Mirage G?

      They didn’t fight anywhere
      1. postman
        postman April 3 2014 22: 23
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        They didn’t fight anywhere


        sorry, not "doper", the article is "XX century. Triumph of French aviation"
  23. garik77
    garik77 April 3 2014 17: 40
    +3
    So that means who has the best airplanes in the world! And the guys don’t know .. The article gives the impression of an advertising order.
  24. Anton Gavrilov
    Anton Gavrilov April 3 2014 17: 42
    +5
    The only European country whose military-industrial complex is worthy of great respect in my opinion. The French have retained the competence to create almost all types of weapons; they themselves produce armored vehicles, small arms, combat aircraft, surface ships, including the only non-American nuclear carrier, submarines, ballistic missiles and so on. The Englishmen deliberately badly spoiled their VPK-they cannot produce combat aircraft themselves, they cannot submarines without the help of Americans, armored vehicles with small arms are very far from and dealov.And the French in this regard, the fellows, they all retained, do not depend on anyone, and the armed forces in general are at a good level. What else can I say, well done!
  25. Santa Fe
    April 3 2014 20: 31
    0
    Quote: Good cat
    especially after the destruction of five twins with Soviet pilots

    Operation Rimon-20, 30 July 1970 year



    five MiG-21 fours were ambushed - 12 Mirages and 4 Phantoms of the Israeli Air Force acted against them. Despite the numerical superiority of Soviet pilots, the Israelis drowned out communication lines, upset the control of the battle, and, relying on their best skills, shot down five planes. Three of our pilots died:

    Zhuravlev Vladimir Aleksandrovich - captain, senior pilot. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

    Yurchenko Nikolay Petrovich - captain, flight commander. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

    Yakovlev Evgeny Gerasimovich - captain, flight commander. Awarded (posthumously) with the Order of the Red Banner and the Egyptian Order of the "Star of Military Valor."

    That night at the Hel Haavir airbases, a feast hummed - happy pilots drank their bonuses for the Russians they killed ...




    Of course, everything was not so - the battle lasted several hours (several skirmishes stretched out in space and in time). The Israelis also suffered losses: the Mirage of Israeli ace Asher Snir suffered severe damage - the R-13 missile launched at point-blank damaged a plane, but Asher Snir was able to reach its territory and urgently landed the plane at the Refadim airbase (Amos, a participant in that battle, honestly writes about this Amir in his book “Fire in Heaven”).

    And now the most important thing:
    Immediately after the tragic events of 30.07.1970, all participants in the battle were gathered by the commander of the Soviet aviation group in Egypt, General Grigory Ustinovich Dolnikov:

    The meaning of what was said was that all prohibitions and restrictions on pilotage and combat maneuver were lifted. We had to start aerial training with a clean slate and be guided in it by our common sense, and not by a foreign conscience. The general urged us to believe in our own instincts and intuitions, and he himself pledged to believe in our common good fortune.
  26. mizantrop22
    mizantrop22 April 3 2014 20: 36
    +5
    Syrian, Iraqi and Indian pilots on the MiG-21 did this successfully, not only in relation to the French Mirage, but also the American F-4, F-5E, F-16 and F-15.

    This is where you have respected such data about the Syrian and Iraqi pilots? Tell us the details.

    Describing the battle over the Sinai Peninsula, the authors of the article for some reason did not write that the Soviet MiGs performed a training flight and were not armed, and the Israeli Mirage-3E also had a threefold numerical superiority.

    I watch this battle grows more and more details. wink I have not heard a version with a training flight. Maybe they generally flew on a friendly visit, and the Zionists insidiously attacked wassat
  27. supertiger21
    supertiger21 April 3 2014 21: 30
    +4
    But this is something new, interesting article good ! Earlier, I thought that Kaptsov writes articles only about American fighters. But as always, Oleg criticizes everything Soviet, recalling only the MiG-21's defeats. But it would be nice to remember their victories ... wink
    1. typhoon7
      typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 40
      +2
      And the MiG-21 has so many that the Mirages never dreamed of.
  28. crambol
    crambol April 3 2014 21: 33
    0
    For reference from Wiki.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 23: 06
      0
      Yeah. From 1945 of the year he mixed his surname on Dassault - in honor of his dead brother. And he named his company after him
  29. scientist
    scientist April 3 2014 22: 02
    +1
    The French, especially Thales and Thomson, are historically very closely associated with orders from the United States, the bulk of the capital of these companies still belongs to the Americans. Naturally, without the participation of the CIA and the NSA, not a single order can be shoved through. Naturally, in exchange for American orders, the French install on their equipment special programs "logic bombs", which, if necessary, disable equipment. So it was in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and many other places. therefore if India decides to purchase a French Rafale, then it will have to think 1000 times before clashing with Pakistan or with any of its closest neighbors
  30. Rider
    Rider April 3 2014 22: 17
    +1
    Well, rafal is more expensive than a blink 35 times in 2. Two blinks of 35 on any rafal will be knocked down.
    1. typhoon7
      typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 38
      0
      I agree that the ship is a beast in general, but you can’t even talk about the MiG-29 OVT. Dry ones also pile on. A fighter is a military unit, not an object of adoration.
  31. typhoon7
    typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 28
    +2
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Or the formidable Mirage F.1 - in 1973 no country in the world had such an aircraft: a powerful, perfectly balanced fighter-bomber

    In Angola, the MiG-23 put an end to the rule of the Mirage. In general, you can not distort so much with the history of the world aircraft industry. I learned about the triumph of French aviation from your article, although I have been interested in this matter since childhood. The triumphs in this matter are the two powers of Russia (the Soviet Union) and the States, whose combat aircraft have proved this in great wars and are embarrassed to call it a triumph. Triumph is when it is when the army of a strong opponent is defeated. Among Western vehicles (my opinion), SuperHornet is more powerful and balanced for both air battles and strike operations. This car is impressive.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 3 2014 23: 20
      -3
      Quote: typhoon7
      Russia (Soviet Union) and the States whose combat aircraft proved this in great wars

      In one big war. But she was too long

      The article was about the era of jet aviation, in which the unconditional primacy of French aviation - None of the Soviet or American aircraft can be compared with Mirages and SuperEtandars in the number of wars won, air victories won and sunken ships
      Quote: typhoon7
      Triumph is when it is when the army of a strong opponent is defeated.

      Is the six-day war a joke? Three times the superiority of the Arabs in aviation and almost ten times in the ground forces

      War of attrition?

      1956 Arab-Israeli conflict of the year?
      Quote: typhoon7
      Among Western machines (my opinion), SuperHornet is more powerful and balanced for both air combat and strike operations.

      And How? shot down a lot of enemy aircraft?

      Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim Al-Oval - damaged by Hurricane fighter-bombers of the Israeli Air Force, forced to surrender. The captured ship is towed to Haifa, October 31, 1956
  32. typhoon7
    typhoon7 April 3 2014 22: 34
    +3
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

    It happened the other way around, but much less often. MiG knocks down Mirage

    Could you get information from Israeli sources? Then everything is clear, these brought down everyone.
  33. lx
    lx April 3 2014 23: 19
    +1
    Quote: typhoon7
    Among Western vehicles (my opinion), SuperHornet is more powerful and balanced for both air battles and strike operations. This car is impressive.

    And how is it more powerful and balanced, you can find out?
    1. supertiger21
      supertiger21 April 4 2014 17: 33
      -1
      Quote: lx
      And how is it more powerful and balanced, you can find out?


      The Super Hornet is a true multi-role fighter that performs well both fighter and strike work.
      This aircraft has a radar with AFAR, as well as a maximum reduced RCS (second only to the RCS of the F-22 and F-35), which means that in battles at medium range it is a dangerous enemy, both for our MiGs and for Rafal. Melee Shershen also will not let you relax, because. has two F-414 engines giving more than 1 thrust, and the airframe's aerodynamics are sharpened for high maneuverability rather than speed. Even the formal "ancestor" of the Super Hornet - the Northrop F-5E Tiger-2 fighter had the best maneuverability among fighters of the 2nd Therefore, today's aircraft contains the best abilities of Dog Fight, preserved from a distant ancestor. In addition, this aircraft is an excellent bomber capable of carrying up to 8 tons of various weapons. Moreover, it is able to take off with such a load from an aircraft carrier, without using the afterburner. (I heard from some American sources) In the future, the F-18E / F will be equipped with suspended containers for placing missiles and bombs, which will further reduce the aircraft's already low RCS. Without a doubt, the Super Hornet is by far the most advanced American fighter 4. It is no coincidence that in Hawaii, during a computer simulation of air combat, the main enemy of the Su-35 (along with the F-22 and F-35) was the Super Hornet.
      1. lx
        lx April 4 2014 17: 55
        +2
        This is all great, and I will not even find fault with your review of the capabilities of the super gornet, but you did not say the main thing what it is "more powerful and balanced "? If in terms of strike capabilities it is approximately equivalent to a Rafal (although its combat radius and air defense breakthrough capabilities are less), then as a fighter it has the worst thrust-to-weight ratio and maximum allowable overload. It also has no OLS.
        1. supertiger21
          supertiger21 April 4 2014 18: 36
          -2
          Quote: lx
          This is all great, and I will not even find fault with your review of the capabilities of the super gornet, but you did not say the main thing why it is "more powerful and balanced"?


          At an average distance, the Super Hornet is stronger than Rafal, because Its ESR is smaller. Rafale's PGO once again increases visibility, engines are irradiated through air intakes, less smooth glider contours. Consequently, in most cases, F / A-18 will be the first to see the Frenchman.

          Quote: lx
          If in terms of strike capabilities it is approximately equivalent to rafal (although he has less combat radius and air defense breakthrough opportunities)


          Of course, Rafal has more combat load, but nevertheless in detection capabilities the advantage is on the side of the Super Hornet.

          Quote: lx
          as a fighter, he has the worst thrust-weight ratio and maximum permissible overload.


          Why? Do you think that the F / A-18E among the 4th generation fighters in a maneuverable battle is a weak opponent ???

          Quote: lx
          OLS he also does not.


          I don’t know about this anymore, I need to ask Kaptsov.
  34. lx
    lx April 3 2014 23: 28
    +1
    Quote: typhoon7
    Well, there is no AFAR on it, so what? He will see Rafal much further and strike the first. AFAR plus but not a panacea.

    Why all of a sudden? In general, which of the Su-30 do you mean? they are quite different. But in any case, they have more EPR than rafal, the radar (any) is certainly not better. There is no analogue of SPECTRA and OLS. The SU-30 * has almost no chance of seeing earlier.
  35. Bongo
    Bongo April 4 2014 01: 01
    +3
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    But what about the world's first tactical missile carrier SuperEstandar with the Exocet small anti-ship missiles?

    And what is really outstanding in Super Etandar? Ordinary deck, subsonic bomber.
    The merit of the French is that they managed to create an excellent RCC "Exocet" for its time.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 4 2014 01: 28
      0
      Quote: Bongo
      And what is really outstanding in Super Etandar?

      The world's first supersonic tactical carrier RCC

      With the coolest history of combat use
  36. Bongo
    Bongo April 4 2014 01: 59
    +6
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    With the coolest history of combat use

    Undoubtedly ... But talking about French aviation as "the best in the world" is not entirely correct.
    Oleg, I read your articles with great interest, but as it seems to me it is worth being more balanced in assessments. Not so long ago I had a review article about French combat aircraft and I am not much informed in this area.
    As for the air battles in the Middle East, Oleg, what do you think, if the Arabs flew on Mirages and the Israeli pilots on the MiG-21 would have had a different result?
    1. Santa Fe
      April 4 2014 02: 11
      -5
      Quote: Bongo
      But to speak of French aviation as "the best in the world"

      Not so much "the best" as having the most victorious history - more than all the downed enemy planes, sunk ships and won wars

      And what caused such a confluence of circumstances - luck or technical perfection of structures ... most likely all played a role
      Quote: Bongo
      If only the Arabs flew on "Mirages" and the Israeli pilots on the MiG-21, the result would be different?

      The result would not have changed, but the Jews would have had to work hard

      Remember this episode?
      1. Vita_vko
        Vita_vko April 4 2014 10: 31
        +4
        Dear, you forget that a very important component for a successful air operation is a reliable ground-based combat support system.
        It’s one thing when a fighter is in a free search and quite another when a group of fighters is clearly pointed from the ground according to information from ground or air radars. The factor of competent work of the headquarters of the Air Force and navigators guidance on the ground very often most aviation specialists neglected. But according to my observation of the combat operation of the MiG-31 and Su-27, the competent work of a guidance navigator and reliable radar control contribute at least 50% to the successful completion of a combat mission.
        If you look at how and by what means the Arabs controlled the airspace and controlled the aircraft, then I think that many will understand that the pilots who were sent to the Israeli Air Force for free radar control areas were simply doomed, even if they had 4+ generation aircraft +.
        1. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast April 4 2014 10: 42
          0
          If you look at how and by what means the Arabs controlled the airspace and controlled the aircraft, then I think that many will understand that the pilots who were sent to the Israeli Air Force for free radar control areas were simply doomed, even if they had 4+ generation aircraft +.

          In general, the Arabs had Soviet "means" with Soviet advisers and specialists engaged in this matter.
  37. Bongo
    Bongo April 4 2014 02: 24
    +5
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    sunken ships

    I would probably agree with that.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    most wrecked aircraft and wars won

    But with this, no.
    All Soviet aircraft took part in a large number of armed conflicts, if only due to the fact that the French supplied aircraft only in exchange for "real money". And the USSR on credit or even free. In many respects, this explains the difference in losses, what was bought for their hard-earned money is naturally more expensive than what was donated.
    The motivation and training of the pilots also played an important role. The Egyptians still seriously assert that the USSR supplied "outdated and defective" equipment.
    1. Santa Fe
      April 4 2014 03: 22
      0
      Quote: Bongo
      Vsezh Soviet aircraft participated in more armed conflicts

      Performance, the ratio of victories and own losses play a role - the French have no equal
      Quote: Bongo
      The Egyptians still seriously assert that the USSR supplied "outdated and defective" equipment.

      In fact, the Union itself drove itself into a trap, choosing as friends the most backward and stupid countries. It is clear that the supply of weapons to such revolutions is a blow to their own reputation; because they 100% will sell and blame their benefactor

      Franks also supplied weapons to different Gabons, but the priority of such deliveries was low compared to Israel and other developed countries - it was their victories that made advertising to French weapons

      Who is this? Judging by its coloration and identification marks - Mirage FNUMX Air Force Qatar
      1. Bongo
        Bongo April 4 2014 03: 36
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Who is this? Judging by its coloration and identification marks - Mirage FNUMX Air Force Qatar

        Yes, this is the Qatari Mirage F1, at the moment the aircraft of this type have been removed from service in Qatar. Possibly taken during Desert Storm.
        These machines like Mirage III were not famous, in some places during the fighting, for example, in Morocco and Angola, they suffered heavy losses. Moreover, in Angola, mainly in air battles, at least Cuban, not the latest MiG-23 acted on equal terms with them.
      2. Tourist Breakfast
        Tourist Breakfast April 4 2014 10: 39
        +4
        Franks also supplied weapons to different Gabons, but the priority of such deliveries was low compared to Israel and other developed countries - it was their victories that made advertising to French weapons


        To be fair, in the Falklands War, Argentine Mirages and Daggers did not win a single air battle with British subsonic Harriers.
        So not everything is so simple.
        1. Santa Fe
          April 4 2014 11: 39
          -1
          Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
          To be fair, in the Falklands War, Argentine Mirages and Daggers did not win a single air battle with British subsonic Harriers.

          There were practically no mirages there
          There were Daggers without radar, the average time spent in the database zone was 2 minutes. Fast and the Furious is prohibited - not enough fuel

          And the British - the latest version of Sidewinder - AIM-9L with an all-aspect seeker

          What else is there to argue about?
          1. Tourist Breakfast
            Tourist Breakfast April 4 2014 14: 46
            +2
            There were practically no mirages there

            There were. Including 2 downed.

            What else is there to argue about?

            We argue about the "absolute victory" of the "Mirages".
            1. Santa Fe
              April 4 2014 19: 13
              +1
              Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
              There were. Including 2 downed.

              Do not mislead yourself and others

              The Britons managed to bring down two Mirage-III - 1 May 1982
              Then most of the Mirages were recalled to protect Buenos Aires and more with SiHarrieres they did not meet

              Only the Daggers fought - without a radar and modern UR. Worse, the nearest air base was located at a distance of 700 km - the average time Dagger spent in the database area was 2 minutes, access to supersonic sound was prohibited - otherwise there would not be enough fuel for the return trip

              SiHarrieres managed to shoot 9 Daggers, but Daggers, in turn, managed to wreck several ships of the squadron - Plymouth, Argonaut ...

              The frigate "Plymouth" is on fire - it was hit by 4 bombs, none of which exploded

              Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
              We argue about the "absolute victory" of the "Mirages".

              Have you forgotten to look at the calendar? 1982 year - a quarter of a century has passed since the Mirage

              The Mirage F.1 was already flying all over the world
              1. Tourist Breakfast
                Tourist Breakfast April 5 2014 02: 18
                0
                Then most of the Mirages were recalled to protect Buenos Aires, and they did not meet with the SiHarrieres anymore.

                And they did not meet with the "Harriers" because they fought at great heights, although they had to cover the strike vehicles.

                SiHarrieres managed to shoot 9 Daggers, but Daggers, in turn, managed to wreck several ships of the squadron - Plymouth, Argonaut ...

                Only the frigate "Plymouth" received less serious damage.
                And not from bombs, but from cannon fire. Not too high price for 9 shot down "Daggers".

                Have you forgotten to look at the calendar? 1982 year - a quarter of a century has passed since the Mirage

                The difference between the adoption of the "Mirage" and "Harrier" is less than 10 years. This is despite the fact that the "Harriers" were subsonic machines and were significantly inferior to the "Mirages" in terms of performance characteristics.
                1. Santa Fe
                  April 5 2014 12: 49
                  -1
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  And they did not meet with the "Harriers" because they fought at great heights, although they had to cover the strike vehicles.

                  They told you - they were NOT there.
                  After the Volcanoes raid on the Falklands (May 1), Mirages were transferred to defend Buenos Aires and they no longer met with SiHarrieres

                  For the first time I hear about "high heights" - Mirages could not physically accompany Skyhawks due to their lack of refueling systems.
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  Only the frigate "Plymouth" received less serious damage.

                  Exploded at least half of the dropped bombs - Plymouth would be guaranteed to be sunk. Like the frigate Ardent, during the second raid
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  And not from bombs, but from cannon fire.

                  You drive

                  By the way, there was a ship damaged by cannon fire - Daggers shot the frigate Arrow in this way
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  Not too high price for 9 shot down "Daggers".

                  Daggers performed the task perfectly - they broke through, without the help of the radar they found the target and struck. Planes are not to blame for the fact that 80% of Argentine bombs did not explode
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  The difference between the adoption of the "Mirage" and "Harrier" is less than 10 years.

                  Oh really.
                  SiHarrier was adopted in 1979
                  Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                  The Harriers were subsonic machines

                  Like Argentine Mirages
                  It was forbidden to turn on the afterburner - otherwise there would not be enough fuel for the return trip

                  But SiHarrieres had the latest Amer’s SD with all-perspective GSN
                  1. Tourist Breakfast
                    Tourist Breakfast April 5 2014 21: 13
                    +1
                    They told you - they were NOT there.

                    Honestly, I'm tired of arguing with you. It was not so it was not. How they "were not" read here:
                    http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/folkl/mirage/mirage.html
                    SiHarrier was adopted in 1979

                    Along with the Sea Harriers, the GR.3 Harriers were used, on the basis of which they were developed. See the year of adoption for yourself and compare with the "Mirage 3E".
                    But SiHarrieres had the latest Amer’s SD with all-perspective GSN

                    Yes, the Britons had their advantages, which they still had to be able to take advantage of. But when the score is 11: 0, how can you call this conflict "The Triumph of French Aviation" ?!
                    1. Santa Fe
                      April 5 2014 22: 37
                      +1
                      Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                      http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/folkl/mirage/mirage.html

                      Appeared over San Carlos and ╚ Mirages ’They covered the percussion machines, but they did it at such a great height and for so short a time that they really could not help their comrades. 8 IAG continued to carry out such work with similar success. until May 27
                      the war lasted until mid-June
                      Only a few dozen sorties, had no meetings with the enemy (with the exception of May 1) The bulk of the Mirages flew over Buenos Aires
                      Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                      Along with the C-Harriers, the Harriers-GR.3 were used,

                      GR.3 did not bring down a single enemy aircraft
                      They had no radar, never participated in air battles and were used only as attack aircraft
                      Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                      See the year of adoption for yourself and compare with the "Mirage 3E".

                      Honestly, I am amused by your self-confidence
                      Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                      But when the score is 11: 0, how can you call this conflict "The Triumph of French Aviation" ?!

                      that's how

                      Sunk:
                      - Sheffield destroyer;
                      - the destroyer "Coventry";
                      - frigate "Ardent";
                      - frigate "Entiloup";
                      - amphibious assault ship "Sir Galahed";
                      - transport / helicopter carrier "Atlantic Conveyor";
                      - landing boat Foxtrot Four (from the UDC HMS Fearless)

                      Damaged:
                      - the destroyer "Glasgow" - 454-kg unexploded bomb stuck in the engine room;
                      - the destroyer "Entrim" - unexploded bomb;
                      - the destroyer "Glamorgan" - PKR "Exochet" (the only one on the list, damaged by fire from the shore);
                      - the frigate Plymouth - four (!) Unexploded bombs;
                      - the frigate "Argonaut" - two unexploded bombs, the "Argonaut" was in the balance from death;
                      - the frigate "Elekriti" - unexploded bombs;
                      - Arrow frigate - damaged by aircraft cannon fire;
                      - frigate "Broadsward" - punched through the unexploded bomb;
                      - frigate "Brilliant" - shot by "Daggers" from a strafing flight;
                      - landing ship "Sir Lancelot" - 454 kg unexploded bomb;
                      - the landing ship "Sir Tristram" - damaged by bombs, completely burned out, evacuated on a semi-submerged platform;
                      - amphibious assault ship "Sir Bedivere" - unexploded aerial bomb;
                      - British Way tanker - unexploded bombshell;
                      - transport "Stromness" - unexploded air bomb.
  38. badger1974
    badger1974 April 5 2014 22: 04
    +1
    I would like the author to wish more emphasis on the performance characteristics of the compared aircraft before making loud conclusions, and even the tactical intention of those who use this technique to combine into a separate material in the article, with a detailed circumstance, I really like Bongo's articles. everything is impartial, the reader himself draws conclusions, but in this article it is somehow one-sided, and to some extent far from the very characteristics of technology, more to some extent propaganda, and most importantly, the author for some reason kept silent about the pilots of the Normandy-Niemen "- absolutely in vain, but it was this composition that raised the French aviation to the world level,
    I don’t put a minus article, but it’s far from a plus
    1. Santa Fe
      April 5 2014 22: 44
      0
      Quote: badger1974
      put more emphasis on the performance characteristics of the compared aircraft before making loud conclusions

      Why TTX if there are facts of military use

      French aircraft shot down most of the aircraft, destroyed a bunch of ships, won many wars
      1. badger1974
        badger1974 April 5 2014 22: 52
        +2
        I would like more facts, but at the expense of the French aviation - you got excited, the MiG-15 shot down the most of the "reagents" - this is an indisputable fact. but in general, Soviet aviation, in the sum of all local wars, shot down the most, this is an account from Kreia and before the first Iraqi, after the first Iraqi, no one can boast of any result, maybe even unofficially
        1. Santa Fe
          April 5 2014 23: 08
          -2
          Quote: badger1974
          The MiG-15 shot down the most of the "reagents" - this is an indisputable fact.

          And how many times were MiG-15 shot down?

          And how many wars did this wonderful fighter win?
          Quote: badger1974
          but in general, Soviet aviation in the sum of all wars are local

          If you do not take Korea - where was the debut of jet aircraft and piston aircraft of WWII times still flew, then Soviet aircraft did not differ anywhere else. In the best case, the score was 1: 1, in the worst - total defeat as in Lebanon-82

          2 and 3 generations - not a single decent domestic fighter
          from 4 I really like Su-27, but somehow he didn’t fight anywhere
          1. badger1974
            badger1974 April 6 2014 00: 19
            0
            ho, in Lebanon 82- and what was there in the defeat? tell me, I don’t know, maybe you can confuse with Syria? so there was no defeat of identity either, look at the victories of the aces of the countries, compare, and then compare, which fighter is the best, but about Lebanon separately, what is aviation in Lebanon?
            1. Santa Fe
              April 6 2014 02: 15
              0
              Quote: badger1974
              Lebanon 82- and what was there in the defeat?

              Operation World Galilee
              http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Потери_авиации_в_Ливанской_войне_(1982)
              Quote: badger1974
              what is aviation in lebanon?

              Lebanon was 20 years occupied by Syrian troops
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm April 6 2014 11: 11
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Operation World of Galileehttp: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss of the Aviation_Livanskaya_Voyna_ (1982)

                It seems like this, but what the hell then the whole NATO fleet was pulled in there, why did the American infantrymen land, what did the American ambassadors travel to Syria, why did the Israelis inactive use their air dominant in 83, and why, with the so-called complete defeat of the Syrians in Lebanon remained almost at his own.
                But no matter how cool the French have good planes, among their generations they are practically inferior to anyone, Mirage III among the second generation is definitely the leader.
              2. badger1974
                badger1974 April 6 2014 19: 04
                +1
                I wonder what Lebanon airfield accommodated the Russian MiGs and Su? curious, but especially curious in 1982? even if Syrian, is there infa how many of them were in Lebanon in 1982 and from which airfields did they operate? do not make me laugh
  39. lx
    lx April 6 2014 10: 35
    +2
    Quote: supertiger21


    At an average distance, the Super Hornet is stronger than Rafal, because Its ESR is smaller. Rafale's PGO once again increases visibility, engines are irradiated through air intakes, less smooth glider contours. Consequently, in most cases, F / A-18 will be the first to see the Frenchman.

    I don’t think that here in appearance one can seriously discuss the real EPR, I just note that the rafal was originally designed taking into account the requirements of stealth and according to various sources both planes have approximately the same EPR (recall, changing the EPR by 10 times will lead to a change in detection range 2 times) and with the known avionics data for both aircraft, it can be argued that in the active radar mode both will notice each other before the range of use of the weapon (by the way, the combat configuration will play a significant role here), and in the passive mode the rafal with OLS has the advantage (by the way, with f-22, rafal has about the same situation). However, the IRST is promised the hornet, but not earlier than 16 years.


    Quote: supertiger21

    Of course, Rafal has more combat load, but nevertheless in detection capabilities the advantage is on the side of the Super Hornet.

    discovering what and exactly what features?

    Quote: supertiger21

    Quote: lx
    as a fighter, he has the worst thrust-weight ratio and maximum permissible overload.

    Why? Do you think that the F / A-18E among the 4th generation fighters in a maneuverable battle is a weak opponent ???

    According to the specifications declared by the manufacturer. Bumblebee rate of climb is also worse. Yes, this aircraft is not at all for dogfight, but thanks to a good avionics, it can quite effectively carry out air defense tasks and related ones. And generations here have no meaning.
    1. badger1974
      badger1974 April 6 2014 19: 15
      +2
      I can only add, the EPR (effective scattering point) questions for millimeter waves even display an ATGM, and for centimeter-distance -60 km confidently, for the over-the-horizon meter EPR range you can put it in Pts .... to shove it in, and over the horizon serious countries have, this is not Syria for you, and if they put one in Crimea, then the question of the EPR of the object will wither away as being
  40. rubin6286
    rubin6286 April 6 2014 11: 29
    +1
    The article is interesting, but the title does not reflect reality.
    In my opinion, the triumph of aviation in any country lies in achieving a result, for some reason, unattainable by anyone else from the aircraft manufacturing countries of Europe or the world. So far, there is no such result, although no one belittles the importance of France as an aviation power, the talent of designers and engineers, the flight skill and courage of its pilots. The similarity of aircraft designs from different countries shows the similarity of design ideas, and the difference is the “highlight” in achieving the goal, based on the country's economic capabilities. Therefore, the aircraft of France, in my opinion, have long been no longer a triumph, but one of many. Among them there are interesting and successful designs, there are less successful, controversial, contradictory, in a word, like any equipment.
  41. Damdin
    Damdin April 6 2014 18: 33
    -1
    I noticed that Kaptsov writes well only about foreign technology, and that Soviet and Russian equipment are shit-pouring, does that mean something?
    1. ar-ren
      ar-ren April 11 2014 08: 13
      0
      Quote: Damdin
      I noticed that Kaptsov writes well only about foreign technology, and that Soviet and Russian equipment are shit-pouring, does that mean something?


      Only that everyone has the freedom to choose whose fan to be.
  42. aleksandrs95
    aleksandrs95 April 7 2014 00: 26
    0
    [quote = cdrt] [quote = SkiF_RnD] The video shows the F-22A, it is quite clearly visible. There are no more aircraft of this silhouette. "35th" all the same could not participate in the exercises, and it can be identified by the air intakes. Earlier, infa had already surfaced that "Typhoons" were also beating the "raptor", that the mattress mats were banging again, maneuverable, but that was not visible in battles. I would have watched the Su-35S duel against the Rafal. The Su-30MKI fight well against the Europeans, so the Su-35S should be even better. [/ Quote]

    At MAKS 2013, Rafal flew. There, of course, the pilot was - ace, but it was very cool.
    The loop on the afterburner with a negative overload - looked great.
    As well as landing immediately at the exit of the Dead Loop. [/ Quote]
    [quote = cdrt] I saw the Rafal Air Force for 100 years, but it has an excellent engine, the MiG-29SM will be weaker, the turns are excellent and the dynamics are lovely. We need new engines and the latter need to be installed. But Libya did not work much, with De Gaulle I couldn’t timely serve the fleet and it escaped with rare departures, from which I believe that for serious operations the basis of aviation should be a more reliable aircraft.
  43. lx
    lx April 8 2014 15: 22
    0
    Quote: aleksandrs95
    But they didn’t work much in Libya, they couldn’t serve with De Gaulle in due time
    fleet

    where does this data come from?
    Quote: aleksandrs95

    and he got off with rare sorties

    in Libya rafale M more than 600 sorties and ~ 2500 hours.
    Quote: aleksandrs95

    from which I believe that for serious actions, the basis of aviation should be a more reliable aircraft. Hindus can get a good shot with the Rafals at the cost of maintenance and hours of operation.

    Based on what data do you say this?
  44. corporal
    corporal April 9 2014 01: 22
    0
    Quote: Damdin
    and Soviet and Russian technology watered shit,

    Well, if this technique helped Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq, then it would be possible to sing praises to it.
    And so .... As the saying goes: "however the trend."
  45. beifall
    beifall April 19 2014 17: 18
    -2
    We are waiting in the future, rafal !!!!!!!!!!!
  46. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 7 May 2014 00: 12
    0
    Dasso Company planes may not be super wonderful BUT marketing is all right ... they sell traditionally well.
  47. Kronos
    Kronos 4 June 2014 16: 19
    0
    Indeed, the military aviation school deserves attention. But I do not consider Mirages as something supernatural!
  48. Tishka
    Tishka 16 October 2014 16: 14
    0
    I was in Zhukovsky at an air show, when French Rafael flew, you can’t say anything beautifully, but when turning, he was out of sight, unlike our SU, which worked in a box that was breathtaking and rarely left the zone line of sight. But the aerobatic team really played the show in the sky, and it is clear that they know how to fly, and they can do it well, which means fighting on an equal footing too, with minke whales, and they won’t give in to us! So it’s hard to say who will be the winner if the melee carousel begins! But the Americans, in their invisibility, for sure, will have a difficult time, in this airy carousel, it only remains that, taking advantage of their invisibility, apply tactics, pulnul and run away until they fail!
    The article is interesting, but here are the discussions, I liked a lot more! Thanks to all participants, it was interesting to read!