Modernization of 1144 cruisers. Unanswered Questions

A year ago, in April of 2013, the Russian Ministry of Defense and the Sevmash plant (Severodvinsk) signed a contract, according to which, over the next several years, the 11442 project will be repaired and modernized by the heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov Orlan. This ship, which began service in the 1988 year, was sent in for repair at the end of the nineties and still has not returned to service. Long years of inactivity affected the condition of the ship, because of what he needs urgent repairs. In addition, weapons and airborne equipment is already outdated and must be replaced for the further operation of the ship. For these reasons, the Ministry of Defense ordered the repair and updating of the missile cruiser.

The nuclear-powered missile cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” (formerly “Kalinin”) of the 11442 project in the sludge at JSC “PO“ Sevmash ". Severodvinsk. Photo http://dokwar.ru

According to reports, the modernization program of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" is designed for several years. During this time, specialists should examine the ship, determine its condition and draw up a list of necessary works. So, for the creation of a technical project for the modernization of the ship 21 was assigned a month from the moment of signing the contract. The project is developed by the Northern Design Bureau (St. Petersburg). The modernization project is supposed to be denoted by the index 11442М.

The Admiral Nakhimov’s nuclear cruiser modernization program is complex and expensive — the estimated cost of repairing and refitting the ship is estimated at 50 billion rubles. In addition, the work will last several years. The cruiser will return to the military fleet not earlier than 2018. After that, according to some reports, the Sevmash plant will begin the modernization of another ship of project 11442 - the cruiser Peter the Great.

Currently, preparatory work is underway, after which the repair of a heavy nuclear missile cruiser will begin. Now the workers of the Sevmash shipbuilding plant are building two pontoons, with the help of which the cruiser will be transferred through the threshold of the harbor and placed in the bulk basin of the plant. According to the plans for the current 2014 year, the ship “Admiral Nakhimov” over the next few months will be brought into the liquid pool of the enterprise. In addition, some preparatory work should be carried out this year.

According to available data, in the course of the upcoming modernization, the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov should receive new electronic equipment and new weapons. The systems installed on the ship have high enough characteristics; however, in order to save the cruiser as part of the navy, they should be replaced. For obvious reasons, accurate plans to replace equipment and weapons not yet announced. Moreover, there is every reason to believe that, to date, the requirements for an armament complex have not been fully defined. There are various assumptions about the possible composition of the weapons of the modernized ship, but none of them has yet been officially confirmed.

The main strike weapon of the project 11442 cruisers was the 3K45 Granite missile system. Each of the Orlan ships carries 20 inclined launchers for missiles of this type. According to various sources, Granite missiles are capable of hitting targets at ranges of up to 500-550 kilometers. For the implementation of air defense, the cruisers of the Orlan project are equipped with the S-300F Fort anti-aircraft missile system with ammunition of several types of missiles. To protect against aviation or enemy missiles at short range cruisers carry the Osa-M and Dagger air defense systems. In addition, ships of the project 11442 have several artillery systems. The artillery weapons of the ships include two AK-130 units with 130 mm guns and eight AK-630M automatic guns. To destroy the enemy’s submarines, the cruiser can use the URPK-6 Vodopad-NK missile system and the RBU-6000 or RBU-1000 missile launchers.

All available weapons systems allow you to perform combat missions, but in some situations their characteristics may be insufficient. In addition, most of the weapons of the Orlan cruisers were developed relatively long ago and become obsolete both morally and materially. In this regard, the replacement of weapons seems to be the right and logical way for the development of the Admiral Nakhimov spacecraft, and in the future, perhaps, its sisterships.

Two types of missile systems can be considered as new strike weapons. The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov", depending on the wishes of the military, can be equipped with the P-800 "Onyx" or "Caliber" complex. It should be noted that when using Onyx missiles, the ship’s ammunition will remain the same - only 20 missiles of this type can be placed in the dimensions of the available launchers. When using the "Caliber" system, the total ammunition of the cruiser can be many times larger. According to some information, launchers for 11442 missiles of various purposes can be installed on the 80 cruiser.

Rocket systems "Onyx" and "Caliber" have both advantages and disadvantages. They are able to deliver a warhead to a distance of 300 kilometers, but at the same time have different flight characteristics. So, the Onyx missiles in flight reach speeds up to 750 m / s, and the Caliber ammunition resembles a marching segment of a flight at a subsonic speed. Despite the differences in flight data and the mass of the warhead, both missiles can complement each other. Therefore, it is suggested that, in the course of the modernization, the cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” will receive launchers of two missile complexes at once.

The use of several different types of missiles, including those belonging to the same complex, will ensure greater flexibility in the use of such strike weapons. It should be noted that this idea has been used on American cruisers like Ticonderoga and destroyers like Arleigh Burke for several decades. These ships are equipped with Mark 41 universal launchers, which can carry 122 (Ticonderoga cruisers) or 96 (Arleigh Burke destroyers) missiles of various types. The Mark 41 launcher can be used with several types of anti-aircraft, anti-ship and anti-submarine missiles. The specific composition of the missile ammunition is determined in accordance with the task.

The architecture of the shock missile complex with certain modifications allows the 11442 cruisers to be equipped with universal launchers. However, we should not forget some features of the existing weapons. “Granit” missiles, which are armed with Orlan ships, are placed in slanted launchers, which imposes corresponding restrictions on the modernization of strike weapons. How this problem will be solved is not completely clear. It is possible that within the framework of the modernization project for the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, a promising launcher with appropriate dimensions will be created for the use of new missiles.

The basis of the anti-aircraft armament of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov", apparently, will remain missile systems of the C-300F family. At the same time, there is a version according to which the ship will receive a vertical launcher of the Polymer-Redut air defense missile system. The composition of short-range air defense can remain the same, but one cannot exclude the possibility of installing new systems such as the Palash CRAW and the like.

Modernization of the missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" should be completed by 2018 year. Soon after, another ship of the Orlan project, Peter the Great, will be delivered to the dock. The deadlines for completing the renewal of the second ship remain unknown. Probably the modernization will take at least 2-3 years, because of which the flagship of the Northern Fleet will return to service only at the beginning of the next decade. The fleet command plans for the two ships of the 1144 project are generally clear: over the next ten years they will be repaired, as well as receive new equipment and weapons. The future of the other two heavy nuclear missile cruisers has not yet been determined.

The lead ship of the 1144 project, the Kirov, was withdrawn from the Northern Fleet at the beginning of the nineties. According to reports, this ship seriously damaged power plant, because of what he can not continue to serve. The existing problems do not allow him to be quickly returned to service, and repair work may not be feasible due to the nature of the damage. The further fate of the ship "Kirov" has not yet been determined. Perhaps a decision will be made in the next few years.

Raises questions and the future of the first ship, built on the updated project 11442. The cruiser "Admiral Lazarev" since the end of the nineties is in the sediment. Moreover, at that time there were proposals to dispose of the ship, since the country was unable to carry out all the necessary repairs on time. However, the cruiser was saved. In the 2011 year, when the first information about the modernization of the Orlan project cruisers appeared, it was repeatedly claimed that the Admiral Lazarev would be repaired and modernized soon after the Admiral Nakhimov. Further information on the possible repair of the ship "Admiral Lazarev" has not been confirmed or refuted.

Available information on plans to upgrade the cruisers of the project 1144 can be interpreted in different ways. In particular, there is reason for concern for the fate of the ships "Kirov" and "Admiral Lazarev." In the case of the head Orlan, damage to the aggregates is the main problem. It is possible that their character will not allow the cruiser to be repaired, as a result of which it will be decommissioned and disposed of. The approximate terms of the repair and modernization of the ships Admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great hint at the unenviable future of the Admiral Lazarev. Production facilities of the Sevmash plant, where it is possible to carry out all the necessary work, will be released only in the early twenties. In what condition by this time will be "Admiral Lazarev" - a big question. The cost and expediency of repairing and upgrading the old ship (by this time it will be more than 35 years old) will determine its future fate.

The program of upgrading the heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" and other ships of the 1144 project is of great interest. Nevertheless, the works started relatively recently, because of which most of the project details remains unknown to the general public. As a result, the modernization program raises a lot of questions that remain unanswered. I would like to hope that all current and future work will give a simple and understandable answer: "Eagle" with new weapons will return to the structure of the Russian Navy and increase its combat capability.


On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://interfax.ru/
http://itar-tass.com/
http://vz.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-701.html

Comments

[Cormorants]

Definitely need to modernize all Orlan. To increase the capacity of Sevmash, it is not so simple but the question is about the country's defense capability. Need to try. Such beauties are definitely needed by the country and not one or two but all.

[Civil]

The sadness of our shipbuilding, work on foot ... is it really impossible to do anything to carry out repairs faster, and modernization projects were being prepared for the entire period of operation, or, for example, to make an option for an easier modernization and repair of the remaining two Eagles.

[Cormorants]

In Soviet times, the ships of Project 1144 were built quickly, on average, every 4 years they launched, the power means there is, maybe there are not enough personnel or the docks are occupied by Indian and Vietnamese orders.
It is unfortunate that such ships are sucks when they should terrify amers.

[Cormorants]

I propose to introduce the Stakhanov traditions together with the TRP, the experiment can be started at Sevmash

[little man]

Not otherwise.
Well, it’s not possible to understand with your mind how to upgrade 4 years ?!
(Probably the work will be carried out between business at lunchtime.)

[jjj]

According to some reports, an investigation is underway at Sevmash. Separate management personnel are in jail. Severodvinsk lives without money

[doctor_alex]

Isn't it possible? Were you on a combat ship? or only on pleasure yachts? And specifically on Nakhimov? Forget the word "modernization" in relation to Nakhimov, the ship will actually be rebuilt. The price tag will be comparable to the price tag of Gorshkov's modernization, the timing is possible too.

[Kibalchish]

It seems to me that in our case, this can greatly affect the quality!

[Sibiryak]

Quote: Cormorants

In Soviet times, the ships of Project 1144 were built quickly, on average, every 4 years they launched, the power means there is, maybe there are not enough personnel or the docks are occupied by Indian and Vietnamese orders.

Building from scratch and modernization are completely different things, hence the corresponding time costs, so this comparison is not correct to say the least!

[Cormorants]

Generally yes, I agree.

[little man]

Oh well. But the ship is needed now. The enemy can be said on the doorstep.
Nefig then change weapons. Change electronics, CIUS, charge the reactor and go!

[Sibiryak]

Quote: man

But the ship is needed now.

So it is in stock, just like every product needs repair, because nothing lasts forever in our raging world.

Quote: man

Nefig then change weapons.

If you are ready to fight with the help of slingshots and rowing oars, then of course the weapons should not be changed, but then get ready to be beaten!

Quote: man

Change electronics, CIUS, charge the reactor and go!

It’s like basting cabbage soup with bast shoes, you can eat and eat, but you’ll get tired like .... I won’t get any pleasure from head to toe.

[tchack]

In Severodvinsk now there are two ships of project 1144:
Red arrow points to "Admiral Nakhimov"
Yellow arrow - on "Admiral Ushakov"

In general, it’s better to go to Sevmash’s website for news on this issue than to procrastinate the same topic for the hundredth time:
http://www.sevmash.ru/rus/component/search/%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%25D0%2

5B8%25D0%25BC%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2.html?ordering=&searchphrase=all

[tchack]

To whom it is interesting I give the coordinates of the ships of project 1144:
Admiral Nakhimov - 64.57457,39.795978
Admiral Ushakov - 64.580235,39.791708
Admiral Lazarev - 42.929594,132.41905
Peter the Great - somewhere in the Mediterranean Sea.

[Orik]

Quote: Cormorants

In Soviet times, the ships of Project 1144 were built quickly, on average, every 4 years they launched, the power means there is, maybe there are not enough personnel or the docks are occupied by Indian and Vietnamese orders.
It is unfortunate that such ships are sucks when they should terrify amers.

They were built by the Baltiysky Plant, which at the moment is largely collapsed. The last warships were launched in 2004 for India, after which, after building an atomic icebreaker, the plant builds civilian ships and two sterns of the Mistral, which is very small in terms of work compared to the full production cycle of warships, especially such as Orlan.

[skiff-xnumx]

There is a live slipway and a cash pool for the appropriate displacement, and the rest can be corrected.

[Orik]

Quote: skiff-1980

There is a live slipway and a cash pool for the appropriate displacement, and the rest can be corrected.

Personnel from the Baltic ran away, they were torn off with their hands even when the work was because there are no others, but there are many shipbuilders in St. Petersburg and they were loaded with orders.

[cdrt]

Quote: Cormorants

In Soviet times, the ships of Project 1144 were built quickly, on average, every 4 years they launched, the power means there is, maybe there are not enough personnel or the docks are occupied by Indian and Vietnamese orders.
It is unfortunate that such ships are sucks when they should terrify amers.

From world experience, such a serious modernization is usually comparable to building a new one and does not take much less time.
It’s a pity that Kirov seems to be cut, I don’t think that his mechanisms of the Russian Federation are now able to restore.
And that would be 4 ships, 3 constantly in service, which gives 1 on duty in the Mediterranean.

[123dv]

What is this article about?
Nothing about!
We just wish success to hard workers and engineers.
And we will wait with hope when the handsome "Nakhimov" will return to duty!

[understudy]

Quote: Civil

really nothing can be done to make repairs faster

I believe that it is possible. Only for this it is necessary to qualify theft in the military-industrial complex as treason against the motherland with all the ensuing consequences.

[aleksandrs95]

I think the question of finance is the most important, powerful Zumwalt-type modernization project only at adequate prices and characteristics, it is economically justified and profitable. Only 4 ships will not have funds, but there are 2. Although the project needs to be done at 4. Money is not enough, presenting to the people will be thrown off showing a wonderful project.

[bvi1965]

I completely agree. These are the pride and symbols of our Fleet, which still have no analogues. And 25-30 years is not the age for ships of this class.

[Aser]

And place them in Cuba by providing Granite with a nuclear warhead

[bif]

Quote: aser

And place them in Cuba by providing Granite with a nuclear warhead

I support the idea. Choose from the existing Orlanov the least promising for a complete modernization, I had to update it to the port of Cuba (or Venezuela, Argentina and further down the list), connect to external sources and voila ... the finished Fort (as under Peter 1) was made in the Gulf of Finland, here and the strongest air defense and strike weapons. A splinter in a striped ass will be what you need. And the main thing is not the Base, but the ship has entered for repairs ... It seems under such a pretext that the American radio-frequency frigate has been "grazing" in the Black Sea in the port of Turkey since the Olympics.

[cdrt]

Quote: aser

And place them in Cuba by providing Granite with a nuclear warhead

Well ... one in the field is not a warrior. Why do we need ships in Cuba, if they get aviation there from the coast. But in the North or Far East, together with the BOD, EM, they will form very good KUGs.
It’s a pity only the Bolid theme seems to have died.
Onyx is still not an adequate replacement for the uber-rocket Granita.
The car was supposed, but it seems that in the 90s the topic did die, which is very, very sorry

And by the way, why did the author take that Onyx replaces one Granite. It seems as always wrote that at least triples ammunition in comparison with Granite. Yes, and on new ships, Onyx and Caliber occupy one UVP cell

[Fin]

In particular, there is cause for concern for the fate of the Kirov and Admiral Lazarev ships.

All will not work. God grant that Nakhimov came out in 20. Ustinov from 11 years old is still being modernized, and then the atomic bomb. Then Peter will get up for the year 4-5, total 2025. One can forget about Kirov and Lazarev; how can they be delivered to Severodvinsk? For the nostril, emergency ships on the NSR?

[skiff-xnumx]

Kirov in the north, but with the azure it is not so simple, he is at the Pacific Fleet. At the time of withdrawal to the reserve, this building required routine maintenance and reloading of the reactor. In general, the author raised an interesting topic but did not understand it to the end. On Kirov, a turbo gear unit breaks down, but there is a possibility of replacement from the Urals, which is preparing for disposal. Again, accele zp14-accele can shoot both onyx and caliber for this purpose it was created. And from where again the range of 300 km is for the expert version. The term of modernization to 18 is taking into account design work, dictation, etc. If you wish and the will of the leadership when placing an order for the slipway, you can start de-installation from the next building. The problem is that if you put Peter, then such a project will not remain on the move. So it’s possible to reduce the period of modernization at times. Now the project is not ready and there is no pontoon, and they’re kicking nuts.

[Trailer]

If the installation is damaged, is there an assumption that the ship is very phonetic in radiation terms?

[Cormorants]

The problem seems to be connected with the gearbox of the turbo gear unit, as I understand something with the turbine. And it seems that with the reactor the problems were during operation but not serious.

[Nayhas]

According to reports, the program of modernization of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" is designed for several years. During this time, specialists must inspect the ship, determine its condition and make a list of necessary work. So, 21 months from the moment of signing the contract were allotted for the creation of a technical project for the modernization of the ship.

A survey of the ship and a check of the operability of all systems should have been carried out BEFORE making a decision on modernization to assess the necessary costs and draw up a modernization plan. It just turns out like with Gorshkov when they announced that the alteration for an aircraft carrier would cost one amount, and when they went down into the hold the amount crawled up at an extraordinary speed.

The use of several different types of missiles, including those that are part of the same complex, will provide greater flexibility in the use of such strike weapons. It should be noted that a similar idea has been used for several decades on American cruisers like Ticonderoga and destroyers like Arleigh Burke. These ships are equipped with Mark 41 universal launchers.

We do not have a UNIVERSAL UVP, therefore there can be no talk of any flexibility. UVP 3S-14 designed to launch RCC Caliber and it seems like Onyx uses a pneumatic missile launch system, and UVP Polyment-Redoubt uses a mortar launch by a powder pressure accumulator. In Mark 41 UVP (and its Chinese counterpart), missile launch is carried out directly from the container by all types of missiles.

The modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov missile cruiser should be completed by 2018.

All profanity with modernization will end in nothing. Costs will rise, there will not be enough money and Nakhimov will be taken out of the dock to die in the far corner ...

[vadson]

no matter how you read you, so at least not a rope with soap and a birch from hopelessness. where is such a life position?
and about 1144, they will do so to Nakhimov, and then Petya. there is money, don’t worry, the nuclear submarines put the submarine into the stream, and we can handle surface ships. now is not the end of the 90s

[123dv]

Quote: vadson

do not worry,

Right.
As the hero of the famous film "They knew only by sight" - Everything will be up gemakht!

[cdrt]

Quote: Nayhas

UVP 3S-14 designed to launch RCC Caliber and it seems like Onyx uses a pneumatic missile launch system

And it seems like they write on all new ships that both Caliber and Onyx can shoot from UVP?

[inkass_98]

If the modernization will cost 50 billion rubles (1,5 billion Baku at the current exchange rate), is it not easier to build a new one? With all due respect to such ships, until the turn for modernization comes, there will be nothing to modernize, scrap metal will remain. And ships of this class are very much needed, they are the pride of the fleet and the symbol of "Kuzka's mother" so that the enemies do not lose their fear.

[cdrt]

Quote: inkass_98

If the modernization will cost 50 billion rubles (1,5 billion Baku at the current exchange rate), is it not easier to build a new one? With all due respect to such ships, until the turn for modernization comes, there will be nothing to modernize, scrap metal will remain. And ships of this class are very much needed, they are the pride of the fleet and the symbol of "Kuzka's mother" so that the enemies do not lose their fear.

There are suspicions that the new one will cost a lot more. And what's worse - there are good chances that the Russian Federation is simply not able to reproduce such an industry.

[Cormorants]

It seems to me that they will take up all the cruisers, not those times today. It has not become too calm, but Russia's interests in the world are growing.

[Predator-74]

Each fleet (I don’t know about the Black Sea) should have such a flagship as the Orlan. In my opinion, this is a real deterrent for any "likely well-wisher".

[sapsan14]

Good afternoon! "Eagles" are ships of the ocean zone. Neither the Baltic nor the Black Sea are interesting for them. The Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet are the fleets of inland seas, where it is advisable to use ships up to the "destroyer" class. Yes, and "destroyers" for them are likely to be redundant. "Eagles" - TF and SF. They hold back the "probable well-wisher" at very distant approaches.

[cdrt]

Quote: sapsan14

Good afternoon! "Eagles" are ships of the ocean zone. Neither the Baltic nor the Black Sea are interesting for them. The Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet are the fleets of inland seas, where it is advisable to use ships up to the "destroyer" class. Yes, and "destroyers" for them are likely to be redundant. "Eagles" - TF and SF. They hold back the "probable well-wisher" at very distant approaches.

I completely agree. In general, I believe that all KR, KRA, AB, EM, BOD, most of the TFR should serve in the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, and for the Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet - corvettes, maybe a little TFR, MPK, MRK, RK. But BDK - half in the Pacific Fleet, the rest in the Black Sea Fleet and the Northern Fleet.

[abuyanovus]

It is because this modernization timeline is so long. After all, EVERYTHING will not be changed on it. No, they will replace it, here they will change it, they will correct it, here they will fit it ... So it turns out that until they find really, and not on paper, a suitable technical solution and the metal will realize it, the time will pass. Modernization is primarily the installation of partially new equipment and the establishment of its effective work with the old. So that it still works and does not conflict or interfere with the work of the old, God forbid.
But this is with the lead ship of the series. With the rest, everything will go much easier. But again, the Eagles are far from identical and there are quite strong differences in them. Therefore, the modernization of the first ship of the series and the middle one, I'm not talking about the latter, can be very different. Hence the terms for the repair of the second ship.
Why should work be carried out in one enterprise? Yes, because the best practices obtained from the results of the work done will not go anywhere further than the workshop ... Not a single director, I'm not talking about the special unit, will not allow them to be taken out of the entrance. Because half, moreover, the larger of them, will have the know-how done on the knee, moreover, suitable only for a specific project, and they will probably not be in the papers, because this is not accepted with us. And if we carry out the modernization of two identical ships but at different enterprises, then the results may turn out to be somewhat different, to put it mildly ...
Personally, I believe that all Orlans will upgrade, but after the completion of the first. According to their results, they’ll see what’s what, they will compare it with new construction ... Or maybe by that time a second pool under the TARK would be organized in Sevmash.
What is happening now is a pen test, a head project, a kind of handicraft, similar to the first Borei. However, look at how many submarines of this series are already in trials. Rent out every year! Hopefully, for the rest of the cruisers, the terms will be greatly shortened.

[doctor_alex]

Quote: abuyanovus

and one director, I'm not talking about the special unit, will not allow them to be taken out of the checkpoint. Because half, moreover, the larger of them, will have the know-how done on the knee, moreover, suitable only for a specific project, and they will probably not be in the papers, because this is not accepted with us.

Delirium delirium delirium, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[abuyanovus]

Quote: doktor_alex

Delirium delirium delirium, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Why so? I saw with my own eyes a similar picture when modernizing certain objects (of course, these were not ships, but not planes where every gram counts, I don’t think that in this case there will be a strong difference ). And believe me, it is sometimes much more efficient than working according to the technological plan proposed by the designers. Moreover, it is, as a rule, a "map" in the sense that they make, albeit in detail, but rather conditionally, leaving the production workers room for maneuver.
Although, if I am mistaken in my assumption, I will only be glad the fact that at last our developers began to understand the designers, and those, in turn, the manufacturers.

[doctor_alex]

What cards are dear? What's wrong? Okostya. As though I am already a former engineer from "Sevmash" I am telling you, everything is built according to drawings, liberties are allowed only in routing pipelines around the premises, and even then within the limits of admissible industry standards! Without making changes to the design documentation, we can only change the coating of the bolts and nuts, and even then only in the direction of improvement! All changes are made to the drawings and agreed with the designer, because EVERYTHING passes the acceptance of the UKP (product quality management) and the master of the UKP, if he is in his mind and freedom is dear to him, no "collective farm" will ever accept! Further, any changes in the drawings where there is a signature of the military acceptance are agreed, in addition to the designer, with representatives of the military, and EVERYTHING built according to the drawings on which there is a signature of the military acceptance is accepted by the representatives of VP1059, THE METAL MUST STRICTLY CORRESPOND TO THE DRAWINGS AND TECH. DESCRIPTION OF ANY COLLECTIVE, the sea to go, he exploit it, he wants to live! So it was, is and will be! This is shipbuilding, not a rural workshop where tractors are repaired!

[abuyanovus]

Quote: doktor_alex

All changes are made to the drawings and agreed with the designer, because EVERYTHING passes the acceptance of the UKP (product quality management) and the master of the UKP, if he is in his mind and freedom is dear to him, no "collective farm" will ever accept! Further, any changes in the drawings where there is a signature of the military acceptance are agreed in addition to the designer with representatives of the military, and EVERYTHING

I don’t argue with you about this, especially about metal and installed units. There are many other things that manufacturers come to agree with designers. And there you will sometimes see such a thing ... If everything is so good at Sevmash that even everything with third-party units is okay, then congratulations. I am sincerely happy for our defense industry.
And I did not write about "KOLKHOZ", I meant specialized "unique" devices and developments in the assembly method. There was no question of deviation from the drawings.

[1712]

I wonder why officials should and most importantly for whom lay out plans for modernization and assumptions about the possible composition of the armament of the modernized ship. Let it be surprise for a possible adversary. It’s correct that such ships are restored, they have a reserve for many years.

[Spatel]

Our large ships were built, including in Nikolaev, on the slipways of the largest shipyard of the USSR and the Russian Empire. Now the independent and independent ditched the plant and shipyards, they will need to be restored for a long time, and will fly into a pretty penny. Yes, and Nikolaev must be recaptured from the drawers with the eggs ...
And this must be done, the sooner the better.
But cruisers desperately need the country!
Otherwise, there will be nothing to fend off from our striped friends!

[rasputin17]

Do not sprinkle salt on the wound !! In the early 90s, these ghouls in Nikolaev cut two finished aircraft carriers into metal and sold them to the Turks for nothing !!!

[Pyctam]

Ghouls, or rather not say ...

[77bob1973]

These cruisers were built in St. Petersburg at the Admiralty Shipyard, building a hull is not a problem, the problem with the TK which was manufactured at the Kirov Plant, and such units are no longer being built on it (the workshop and equipment were looted).

[dm98]

Quote: 77bob1973

These cruisers were built in St. Petersburg at the Admiralty Shipyard

at the Baltic factory !!!!

[jjj]

In the USSR, the largest slipway was in Nikolaev, then, in descending order, was the Baltic Plant in Leningrad, then Sevmash Enterprise in Severodvinsk

[skiff-xnumx]

Forget about Nikolaev (sense of the shipyard) it will be very difficult to restore. Zero slipway the cradle of our aircraft carriers has long been quietly sawing metal.

[cdrt]

Quote: Spasatel

Our large ships were built, including in Nikolaev, on the slipways of the largest shipyard of the USSR and the Russian Empire. Now the independent and independent ditched the plant and shipyards, they will need to be restored for a long time, and will fly into a pretty penny. Yes, and Nikolaev must be recaptured from the drawers with the eggs ...
And this must be done, the sooner the better.
But cruisers desperately need the country!
Otherwise, there will be nothing to fend off from our striped friends!

TKR were not built in Nikolaev, in St. Petersburg

[Seamaster]

And why not bring the Kerch Shipbuilding Plant to these works?
In Soviet times, the largest ships - tankers of the "Crimea" type - were built there.
And in terms of displacement "Crimea" is three times more than "Eagles".

[sv68]

because cruisers with atomic power ustonovkoy. through the Bosporus and dardonella straits they will not let Turkey

[Dimon-chik-79]

Why go bankrupt to build a new ship, if you can push the latest weapons into an existing hull? It’s not worth scattering such ships, two such formidable cruisers in the fleet are power!

[kapitan281271]

Constantly asking the same question 300 km Onyx range is not enough for a surface ship of this size. And if someone in the know explain that Granites didn’t really get to the dustbin of history, something new cannot be created on the basis of this rocket. For earlier grateful answer if anyone in the know is very interesting!

[Bronis]

Quote: kapitan281271

I constantly ask the same question 300km Onyx range is not small for a surface ship of this size. And if someone in the know explain that Granites didn’t really get to the dustbin of history, something new cannot be created on the basis of this rocket.

P-700 - a powerful rocket. This is its strength, and its flaw. Strength is in range and warheads, weakness is in size and the need for an external control system at long ranges. And ammunition is relatively small (for a ship of this size), which is important for overcoming enemy air defense.
P-700 is a victim of unification and financing, largely forced and almost inevitable.
In addition, even that missile launch range did not greatly save from the air group from Nimitz - its radius of action is much larger. The only countermeasure tactic was to accompany the AUG close enough - practically "point blank" and wait for the launch command ...

[elmi]

Two types of missile systems can be considered as new strike weapons. The cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, depending on the wishes of the military, can be equipped with the P-800 Onyx or Caliber complex

I also don’t understand (not a specialist) why to change longer-range missiles:

According to various sources, Granite missiles are capable of hitting targets at ranges up to 500-550 kilometers.

for missiles of shorter range:

Onyx and Caliber missile systems have both advantages and disadvantages. They are capable of delivering a warhead at a range of up to 300 kilometers

Logically, it’s better to hit the enemy from afar than to approach the enemy within range of their missiles, and if their missiles are longer-range, then the risk of being destroyed will be higher than that of someone who will hit from afar with impunity. I don’t know all the nuances . Explain who can.

[Bronis]

Quote: elmi

Logically, it is better to hit the enemy from afar than to approach the enemy at a distance of the reach of their missiles, but what if their missiles are more long-range?

Theoretically, yes. There are practically nuances.
1. Air-launched anti-ship missiles (AUG) still have a larger range of applications than the P-700. To "catch up and shoot" at the AUG with the "Orlan" from the maximum range is too improbable. It will simply be discovered and attacked earlier. Plus, there are problems with the organization of the control center.

2. Long-range supersonic anti-ship missiles have significant limitations on carriers (their few units) and ammunition load. Such large ships will not be built in the next decade. Is it expedient to create an expensive and complex rocket for just a few carriers (with our realities)?

3. 500 km of distance are achieved along a mixed profile. Plus the increased capabilities of modern air defense. Will there be enough 20 missiles (but really in one salvo - less than once in 2,5)?

4. It's not all bad. It is likely that Onyx can have a long range. And in the case of "Caliber" - this is very likely. Moreover, the missile is subsonic, which increases the range + low-altitude flight profile + supersonic in the final section + much larger ammunition. It is only necessary to resolve the issue with the control center. And even RTOs can be carriers of such missiles ...

[elmi]

Bronis
Thanks for clarifying
I agree on all points, especially on the second, indeed, in the event of a protracted military conflict, the possibilities of replenishment with "granites" are small and, as far as I know, they are not produced. Surely our new missiles have greater capabilities than the declared ones, why tease the enemy

[cdrt]

Quote: elmi

I also don’t understand (not a specialist) why to change longer-range missiles:
According to various sources, Granite missiles are capable of hitting targets at ranges of up to 500-550 kilometers. for missiles of shorter range:

Well ... not really.
500-550 at Granite on a profile big-small height.
With a conventional warhead and a profile of a small-small height, the range of Granites is 145 km.
Onyx has an export modification of 120 km in this profile.
Given that the export has a maximum range of 300km, precisely based on the Non-Proliferation Treaty, it can be assumed that the Onyx range in the domestic version is up to 400-500, with the corresponding range on the profile, small-small height.
But today I’m not sure that a blow to the big-small profile has the ability to suppress ABM missile defense.

Another question is that the Onyx has an 300 warhead, and the Caliber 200 has kg (in the export version it is true). Compared with 500-1000kg on our heavy anti-ship missiles - not enough, despite the fact that they have comparable speeds.
There is of course the Vulcan monster.
Sorry nothing is heard on the car.

[elmi]

Quote: cdrt

Given that the export has a maximum range of 300km, precisely based on the Non-Proliferation Treaty, it can be assumed that the Onyx range in the domestic version is up to 400-500, with the corresponding range on the profile, small-small height.

Thanks for clarifying Yes, certainly the range is higher than stated.

Quote: cdrt

Another question is that the Onyx has an 300 warhead, and the Caliber 200 has kg (in the export version it is true). Compared with 500-1000kg on our heavy anti-ship missiles - not enough, despite the fact that they have comparable speeds.

I agree. Even in poplars, yars the abandoned warhead is less than in Soviet missiles. I read that in the new Sarmatians the warhead will be less than in Satan. That is, the main advantage of the Voivode was its carrying capacity (cast weight), almost 9 tons! and the Sarmatian throws weight 4,3 t (((
http://topwar.ru/31482-na-smenu-satane-pridet-sarmat.html
But the main thing is that a start has been made. Surely more promising developments will soon appear.

[kapitan281271]

Thank you for the clarification, but it's a pity. I understand that the boats will not be equipped with this machine anymore, but for a boat, a range of 500 km is so delicious. Thanks again!

[skiff-xnumx]

There is no open information on the range of these complexes. The entire range given in the article is the range of the export option. But the real range will not be told to you later that Nizya

[1712]

You write correctly. Well, with what "joy" the site will upload real data from missiles. For whom or what? Removing the "Granat" missile from service, the replaced one will be no worse in performance characteristics, and in many respects should surpass it. Dialectics of development.

[Bronis]

Quote: kapitan281271

Thank you for the clarification, but it's a pity. I understand that the boats will not be equipped with this machine anymore, but for a boat, the range in 500 km is so delicious

Tasty, but with ONE BUT. You need an external control center - a satellite or an airplane. The submarine is not capable of independently detecting targets at a distance of 500 km. And this time and money ...

[Kibalchish]

In general, it seems to me that the terms of modernization rest on the class of these ships itself! They installed a large number of systems and weapons, which since the launch of the ship on the water have undergone enormous changes. On this, the question is: how to carry out modernization so that the ship is sufficiently modern and efficient, but at the same time, its modernization is not worth it like building a new ship? If we succeed in successfully modernizing the first Orlan, the terms for other ships will be greatly reduced.

[sivuch]

And about Zircon for some reason not a word

[rugor]

The shipyard in Nikolaev needs to be squeezed.

[indiggo]

the project is unique. The problem of modernization of these beauties is that we do not have modern infrastructure. Sevmash, don’t say it’s a shipyard for a nuclear submarine. the only shipyard in the Russian Federation where there is a female dock of the required length is the Bay in Kerch, well, you understand that the bay, for obvious reasons, will not pull such an order in the near future. another question is, of course, armament definitely needs to be designed for SIA. will significantly increase the universality of the project.

[cat1973]

If everything is fine, and not-as always, then there will be a good ship!

[silver169]

It is necessary to modernize all four Orlans and send two to TF and SF. Estimate how much the power of both fleets will increase. I would like to recall the American approach to a similar problem. In my opinion, at the beginning of the eighties, they removed the Iowa-class battleships that were in the sump for about 40 from conservation! years. They were successfully modernized, stuffed with "Tomahawks", "Harpoons" and they served for about ten more years. And ours need to act this way, especially in light of the early renewal and modernization of the Navy.

[indiggo]

not well, let’s it be realistic for Lazarev not to return everything there sadly ... for too long they did not notice

[xomaNN]

If the author is right about the unrecoverable breakdowns of the Kirov EDU, it is unlikely that he will wait for modernization. Something will only go for spare parts from it. And if there is only one slipway on the NSR, "Adm. Lazarev "taking into account the already accumulated experience of modernization of pr.1144 still has a chance to become a military unit of the Navy. If only there is enough money and enthusiasm

[Anton Gavrilov]

Kirov has only one problem, a malfunction in the reactor, and the very fact that both reactors have not yet been dismantled.

[Anton Gavrilov]

Nakhimov has one "pebble in his boot" because of which the repair is likely to be delayed.
http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2014/707/okcl730.jpg

In the middle is the titanium submarine of the 661 project Anchar. The fact is that in salt water you can’t put titanium next to plain iron, electrocorrosion will begin. If it is easier to say, the bottom of Nakhimov was pretty much left from such a neighborhood, the sailor who served on it in 2009-2010 said that the pumps only have time to pump out the water, and the engineer who is now working on it said that the ship almost sank! The repair there is planned to be very extensive - all weapons and REVs, part of the hull structures, and most of the general equipment, are dismantled but the appearance of the EU will seriously change - it will be repaired with modernization. Judging by what can be found on the Internet, the launchers will be new, because 4 of the year is a serious period. Old installations will be replaced with new ones, this can be considered 100%.

[gregor6549]

A bit familiar with this vessel. She, especially her weapons, power plants and other stuffing are outdated, and quite seriously. Therefore, we can talk not about some kind of modernization, but about a practically complete alteration of the ship. I do not presume how economically profitable it is, but I believe that it is not at all profitable. It’s easier to divide this ship into metal and make a couple of new and modern ships out of it, smaller in size but with a more attractive efficiency / cost parameter.

[Anton Gavrilov]

In general, this ship will be very useful for our Navy arsenal, it will be very formidable in any way, the presence of the fleet in the ocean without large ships cannot be considered serious, and given the kind of foreign policy we have, such a powerful tool and lever of political pressure will be very useful to us . In my opinion, the repair will be completed successfully, only more money will be needed (50 billion starting price, so to speak), and the time will have to be slightly advanced. But as for the fate of the other two ships, I think, alas ..... they are more on their own and the vast expanses of the ocean will not come out. Lazarev is in excellent condition for modernization - the reactors have been dismantled, the shell wear should not be significant, a lot of equipment has been dismantled, the amount of defect will be small. But there is nowhere to repair it in the Far East, the star has no license to work with EI, and Peter the Great will go to Sevmash after Nakhimov, he needs urgent repairs, the EU works somehow. Ushakov is the oldest of all, separate sections of his bottom with a keel have already reached 40 years (was laid down in 73), the reactors disassembled, weight washing part of the equipment too (after all, as they say, in order to establish something new must be removed, something old), well, he had to swim for relatively not too few 10 years, plus add the same load of Sevmash for many years to come. 2 look of the first Oraln alas, not the tenants, but my hope still does not fade ....

[gregor6549]

This ship without air cover i.e. the aircraft carrier will be a powerful "tool" only in the coastal zone. those. only where it can be reliably protected from enemy aircraft and missiles by ground-based air defense and missile defense systems ((air defense missile systems, air defense aircraft, etc.) When going beyond their range of action, the cruiser will be a very tasty target for all types of air defense systems, including ballistic missiles equipped with homing missiles (like the ones that the Chinese are doing now.) Their own air defense / missile defense systems will not last for a long time, and they will not be able to effectively fight against modern air defense systems, moreover, the enemy will not regret any forces and means for such a goal. The hope for destroyers and escort corvettes is also very illusory.

[cdrt]

That's how the Americans at one time would not think so. And they considered the presence of 1144 rather substantial arguments of the USSR Navy. Yes, of course, the tactics of their use are suicidal - only the first strike, preferably from a short distance, but ... from this strike did not cease to be mortally dangerous.
So ... with an updated air defense, with an umbrella from fighters from coastal airfields, with Tu-22M3 support for 800-1000 km to Kola, Kamchatka, Vladivostok, they have every chance to prevent even the ACS

[Dart2027]

And for the time while his anti-aircraft / missile defense systems will gain the necessary time for him, he, in turn, will send back everything that he has from strike weapons. And given the number of both on board, little will not seem to anyone.

[gregor6549]

I'll add a couple more kopecks. The beginning of the construction of cruisers of this series dates back to 1973. Taking into account the time spent on the development of the ship itself and its components, this project is already 50 years old. You will hardly find a complete set of drawings for the ship and its equipment, as well as the people who designed it. And the suppliers of components are already far away. Who stayed in Ukraine, who else where. Look for the wind in the field. Therefore, it is quite understandable that the Sudprom wants to play with this modernization. It is much more profitable for him to do something new. And it is simpler, and even moral with material incentives is easier to get for new than for old. Moreover, considering that many enterprises of the Sudprom are state-owned enterprises only partially. Those. the question "Do we need it?" forever alive in the defense industry and especially in its private sector.

[Giant thought]

Since the repair of the "Admiral Nakhimov" will last for several years, it may be advisable to build a new plant during this time to repair ships of this class, and at the end of the repair epic, one can start building new ships of the same class on these areas, given the fact that the plant will be new and the equipment will also be new. And we need a lot of ships, and we need to think about the future, and not get hung up on the tasks of today.

[gregor6549]

This is not about repair, but about deep modernization of the cruiser. And these are two big differences, as they used to say in Odessa.

[homosum20]

We will not build. Believe me, a factory is much more complicated and more expensive than a cruiser.

[Dart2027]

What for? It is necessary to completely restore the Baltic factory, and not to reinvent the wheel.

[homosum20]

The concept of war has changed - other striking means are needed. The cost of repairing and modernizing the Nakhimov is the cost of one Mistral. But "Nakhimov" is the leader of the strike group of the Navy, while the "Mistral" is one of the rank and file units.
And that the ships were cut, I must say thanks to the order-bearer of the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called, who was tagged (for which he awarded his iPhone with the aforementioned gadget on March 02, 2011 (not a year ago, but a year) and a drunk.

[cdrt]

Quote: homosum20

The concept of war has changed - other striking means are needed. The cost of repairing and modernizing the Nakhimov is the cost of one Mistral. But "Nakhimov" is the leader of the strike group of the Navy, while the "Mistral" is one of the rank and file units.
And that the ships were cut, I must say thanks to the order-bearer of the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called, who was tagged (for which he awarded his iPhone with the aforementioned gadget on March 02, 2011 (not a year ago, but a year) and a drunk.

And what kind of new tools have appeared?

[Antibrim]

you need to upgrade, you can’t just take and cut everything, the ships will be what the Americans will constantly panic! I think it is necessary to repair, while there is no way to build such ships, let the shipyards be modernized, this is a long process, and there is time to repair everything

[Leshka]

cruiser is power

[moryak tof]

It's hard for me to judge about “Nakhimov”, but I have heard and know something about “Lazarev”. During my service at the Pacific Fleet, there were rumors that the most "ballistic" demobels at the end of the service left Lazar on solid Japanese women)), of course, rumors were rumors, but there is some truth in this, they wrote off my box on Lazar for "good" behavior one sailor, in the very first letters he said that this was a "copper Eldorado", and if the "conscripts" mined metal, then the command is many times greater, well, or with their share consent, or maybe an order), at the expense of the command already I have personal testimonies on the example of other boxes, I had a chance to visit the Ural reconnaissance aircraft and the ocean-going BDK Nikolaev, in particular, in Nikolaev, I personally saw how a team of two or three people came to work every day, and repaired various units containing nonferrous metals, and there are a lot of such units on ships, if not all. I personally watched them repair one of the generators). I do not think that they went there without the knowledge of the ship commander, or maybe the brigade commander)), and in the evening a truck came for them, the scale of the work was not small, you can't take it on yourself)). I had a chance, as I said, to visit this ship, a spectacle ... Hollywood would just scream with joy, how much you can save on the scenery when shooting horror films, climbed the holds, I was a little uncomfortable), I think one would be in my pants at night imposed))). I am all this for what, on Lazar there is no reason to think what was better, and how to restore what I saw ??? But as a sailor and a patriot, I certainly want to believe that these Majestic Eagles will restore.

[VASH 1182]

Admiral Lazarev at the end of last year

[rusakov89]

The picture is depressing, but if you canned it qualitatively there is a chance that modernization is possible and will cost relatively cheap.

[forward1969]

When the Novik Minons were created, the entire country raised money. Maybe the time has come for a real restoration of our pride - our fleet.

[16112014nk]

"Nakhimov" should be renamed. All the Nakhimovs ended badly.

[skymit]

Quote: jjj

According to some reports, an investigation is underway at Sevmash. Separate management personnel are in jail. Severodvinsk lives without money

Where are the woods from, if not secret?

[jjj]

Called from Severodvinsk

[Ross]

Quote: Cormorants

Definitely need to modernize all Orlan. To increase the capacity of Sevmash, it is not so simple but the question is about the country's defense capability. Need to try. Such beauties are definitely needed by the country and not one or two but all.

What about the Baltic plant? He built it, why did only Sevmash remain?

[Akimichs]

computer programs office download for http://www.svetoch34.ru/forum/user/177/forum/user/6848/

[1712]

It seems to me that if the management decided to dispose of the cruisers, they would have already been sawn. Therefore, the cruisers are modernized and returned to the fleet.

[sskalinin]

One of course can be repaired and equipped for the Pacific Fleet, but in my opinion it is a very expensive enterprise. It’s like remaking 21 Volga into Mercedes and buying meaningless Mistrals. Nuclear-powered ships and ships of an ice-class coastal church make sense. It is necessary to develop a nuclear icebreaker fleet and technologies for environmentally friendly hydrocarbon production on the shelf

[nvn_co]

Quote: man

Not otherwise.
Well, it’s not possible to understand with your mind how to upgrade 4 years ?!
(Probably the work will be carried out between business at lunchtime.)

Nuuuu, you’re so straightforward ... :) There are a lot of work and well done, that it’s 4 years, not 6 years (or even more). Modernization only sounds simple, and it’s almost new to build work ... Some things will need to be redone, redesigned, recounted ... And there will be many such. But well done anyway. Everything needs to be restored and put on duty! Russia is a great maritime state!

[jayich]

It became interesting to me. Is there an auxiliary boiler turbine installation at Admiral Lazarev, can it be revived and can you get to Sevmash on it?

[rusakov89]

"Nakhimov" and "Kuznetsov" are being modernized, you can not even discuss this, but everything is very vague with the rest, because they will have to be practically rebuilt, if the naval officials calculate that it is too expensive, then the rest of the Orlans will be put on pins and needles. You can shit as much as you like about the uniqueness of ships, national patriotism, etc., but at the present time Rossi needs new corvettes, frigates and destroyers, and monsters like the Eagles can give in.

[Tishka]

I am certainly not a specialist. In the ships. But the ships are really very powerful, and the weapons, at that time, had the most modern. It’s a pity that everything is done in a hurry, not thinking about the consequences, they were joking, instead of having to make repairs on time! But it was necessary. if necessary, carry out scheduled repairs, upgrades. And now, one would not have to wait for a decision that is easier to cut or restore. Regarding the replacement of missiles, of course, it is necessary to change to more modern ones, but to improve missile guidance, naval aviation is necessary, and not only coastal, it is not known where they have to go, on which seas and oceans. There was an idea about expanding the factories, but our deputies, having approved everything, took a small step back, Rogozin here announced that there is money for the modernization of the plants. and new docks are needed, but nothing of this will be done, since a portfolio of orders has not been formed! It turns out complete nonsense that we need to build more, but we will not give money for the modernization of plants, and we will not build new ones, turn around as you like! So, as always, it’s easier to put everything into scrap, and you can cut the money too! Yes, you can say goodbye to aircraft carriers, there are ideas, and you need to build them, and large ones capable of carrying long-range reconnaissance and target designation aircraft, but there is nowhere to build them again! And the ships of the 1144 series will have to stay on their native shores, where ground-based aviation can cover them, and fight against the enemy’s ACG, not on the enemy’s shores, with provided air cover, but on their native shores! So, it turns out, as always, it’s easier for the oligarchs to build yachts than to take care of the defense capabilities of the whole country and its people!
And the article is really interesting, thanks to the author, and to everyone who supported its discussion, there is a lot of useful information and there is something to think about!

[D-Master]

At "Sevmash" began work on the restoration of "Admiral Nakhimov" http://www.sevmash.ru/rus/news/1787--lr-.html