Military Review

Cornet vs. General Abrams

275
How effective is Cornet in defeat tanks M1A1 and M1A2? What is the survival rate of these armored vehicles when fired?


The main fighting properties of the Abrams tank family are firepower, protection, mobility. Recently they added command manageability.

Tank "Abrams" has a classic layout scheme: the main armament is placed in a rotating turret, the control compartment - in the bow, the engine-transmission - in the stern of the hull. Poor booking of the roof, bottom and sides of the tank is one of the main drawbacks of the classic layout, which, in terms of adopting anti-tank ammunition attacking armored vehicles from above and below, has practically exhausted the possibilities of radical improvement.

Cornet vs. General Abrams


PROTECTION OF "ABRAMS"

The Abrams tanks have the greatest armor protection from the front side. With the modernization of the parameters of the armor resistance of the tank M1А2 (table 1) increased in 1,4 times compared with the tank M1, which was achieved due to additional modules from depleted uranium. Note that the anti-cumulative durability of the frontal protection of the М1А1 tank, equal to 700 mm, means that if the cumulative ammunition has 700 mm armor penetration, then the protection with this ammunition does not break through.



It is appropriate to ask the question: why did the Cornet scare the Americans? The answer is the distribution of the armor-piercing capability of the warheads of the Kornet missile when interacting with the frontal protection of the M1-X1 tank. After penetration of body armor, the unspent part of the cumulative jet (1000 mm - 700 mm) can penetrate another armor plate with a thickness of 300 mm, which provides a highly effective armor effect. In other words, if previously there were few cases of defeat of the Abrams by RPG-7 grenade launchers from the side and the stern from distances not exceeding 200 m, the presence of Baghdad’s Cornets would hit these tanks from any direction, using the range of this complex .

The side of the M1A1 tank (50 mm thick) and the screen placed in front of it, even with reactive armor (ERA), will not protect the crew and internal units from ATGM, RPG and BPS. At the same time, the vehicle has weak armor protection of the roof (thickness - 80-40 mm) and bottom (60-20 mm), which does not save from the impact, for example, of the self-aiming cassette element "Motiv-3M" (used in aviation ammunition and MLRS), as well as from the PTM-3 cluster anti-tank mine.



A comparative analysis of the armor protection of the M1А1 tank (М1А2) and the armor-piercing effect of anti-tank weapons (PTS) allows to note the following:
- the classic layout of the tank determined the high parameters of body armor only for the frontal parts of the turret and hull;
- weak booking of sides, roofs and bottoms does not ensure its survival from modern anti-tank weapons in combat conditions;
- In general, the tank's armor does not meet the conditions of future military conflicts with the use of advanced high-precision anti-tank weapons.

EFFICIENCY OF "CORNET"

This ATGM is second generation. The main advantage of the rocket is the high armor-piercing effect of the warhead. Initially, the complex was developed as self-propelled, but later began to be offered as portable to reinforce infantry units.



Using simulation computer simulation, the probabilities of hitting tanks M1А1 and М1А2 by the criterion of "loss of mobility or firepower" were determined. Under the loss of mobility means the failure of the engine, tracks and other nodes, as well as the driver. The loss of firepower is achieved by disabling the gun, its systems, as well as the gunner. The probability of hitting the M1А1 tank that is not equipped with a DZ, when attacking frontal zones, is 0,8, which is achieved due to the high armor penetration and sufficient armored combat performance of the missile. In Iraq, МХNUMXА1 tanks were without a DZ, since American commanders knew that Baghdad did not have a PTS with armor penetration significantly exceeding the resistance of the frontal protection of tanks. They did not even equip their DZ tanks, as this would have required significant financial costs, moreover, the dynamic loads on the undercarriage (total additional mass - 1 tons) of the already overloaded vehicle would increase.

THE MAIN TACTICAL AND TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE KORNET ATKM

Shooting range, m:
in the afternoon - 100-5500
at night - 100-3500

Control system:
- semi-automatic
- by laser beam

Warhead:
- tandem cumulative
- thermobaric

Time lag between undermines
preliminary and main charge, ms - 300
Penetration, mm - 1000
Rocket caliber, mm - 152

Weight, kg:
launcher - 19
rocket container - 27



And what is the survival rate of the M1А1 tank when firing a Cornet-E rocket in the forehead? To do this, according to the existing rules, we will do the following operation: subtract from 1 the probability of hitting the MXNXXX1 tank, equal to 1, and get 0,8, which indicates a fairly high risk of being hit on the battlefield by this rocket.

Thus, the simulation results made it possible to confirm the effectiveness of the “Kornet” during the shelling of the М1А1 tank in the conditions of the past military conflict. Therefore, it is understandable alarm US Department of State, which uses any tricks in its often unjust game. If Baghdad even had a few hundred Kornets, it would be necessary to organize a tank cemetery for the Abrams.

INFORMATION TO THOUGHT

One should not delude ourselves with the presented performance characteristics of the Kornet-E ATGM system. It should be noted that this complex was worked out according to the performance characteristics of 20-year-old, in which the parameters of DZ simulators and multi-layered booking of foreign tanks did not reflect the reality ("MIC" No. XXUMX, 8). As a result, Russian ATGMs with tandem warheads overcome an overseas remote sensing system with a probability of no more than 2003. The tandem DZ appeared abroad is an almost insurmountable barrier for Russian anti-tank guided missiles with tandem warheads.



When adopting the ATGM for armament, state tests were carried out under conditions that did not correspond to combat.

The use of a laser beam in the guidance system requires the absence of bushes, hills, smoke screens on the rocket's flight path. This circumstance, for example, in the West European theater of operations will not allow firing the Kornet rocket to the maximum range, since the terrain relief provides visibility of targets for no more than 2 km.

A further increase in survivability of American tanks will be carried out by installing an active protection complex that includes detection tools (special sensors for detecting anti-tank ammunition), tracking, destruction, and setting passive (smoke grenades) and active (interference transmitters for laser and infrared ATGM systems) interference.

One of the main features of the modification of the Abrams - the М1А2 SEP tank - is the presence of an on-board information management system (BIUS), which is connected to the automated control system of the tactical unit of the Ground Forces. The CICS carries out the display of the tactical situation on the display screen of the tank commander, and also transmits data on the location of the enemy objects and his troops. Installing BIUS on the M1А2 tank dramatically increases its survival in combat conditions.

The above measures to improve the protection of foreign armored vehicles require Russian designers to improve the shooting technology of tanks.
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  1. Canep
    Canep April 27 2013 07: 31
    +2
    Not bad 1000 mm for steel and 3000 mm for concrete. Penetration is almost absolute. And the price compared to the cost of a tank or bunker is ridiculous, I don’t know for sure, but I think no more or something about 5000-10000 $.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 09: 11
      +1
      I think no more, or something around $ 5000-10000.

      Somewhat more: $ 40, but the tank is more expensive.

      PS
      Judging by the Peruvian poster in the article, the cost of one complex is $ 102'459 hi
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 27 2013 09: 30
        +6
        This seems to be with the thermal imager. The cost of the rocket must be compared with the cost of the tank.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 09: 34
          +1
          When the rocket learns to shoot without PU then you will compare the cost of the rocket. Nevertheless, even with PU it will turn out to be cheaper than the tank by an order of magnitude. Tank is atavism.
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt April 27 2013 09: 40
            12
            Quote: Professor
            Tank is atavism
            Professor, the most secure combat vehicle on the battlefield. Do you prefer to ride a buggy?
            1. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 09: 46
              20 th
              Nobody drives a tank, for this BMP exists.
              I will not repeat myself, however, the leading tank powers either have already stopped the production of tanks or are in the process.
              The tank is dead, long live the tank
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 04
                21
                Leading tank powers are experiencing significant economic difficulties.
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 27 2013 10: 10
                  +9
                  Quote: Spade
                  Leading tank powers are experiencing significant economic difficulties

                  Therefore, many sell tanks not expensive, some even offer to give.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 14
                    14
                    This "gift" in the long term will result in a big expense for the recipient. And the donor's income.
                  2. svp67
                    svp67 April 28 2013 09: 12
                    +3
                    Quote: Kars
                    Therefore, many sell tanks not expensive, some even offer to give.
                    This is called Business and Politics ...
                2. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 10: 22
                  22 th
                  Like an adult, but believe in fairy tales. They can still print money for themselves, but this is not necessary now: real growth of the American economy in the first quarter of this year amounted to 2.5%.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 25
                    14
                    Like an adult, but believe in fairy tales. If printing money is so easy, where does the US get such huge debts?
                    1. Professor
                      Professor April 27 2013 10: 52
                      -5
                      And who has no debts, you look at Norway.
                      1. 11Goor11
                        11Goor11 April 27 2013 13: 07
                        13
                        Professor
                        Like an adult, but believe in fairy tales. They can still print money for themselves, but this is not necessary now:

                        The fact is that the printed money belongs to not the state, and the banks - the FRS. You "professor" and do not know the persons of what nationality the banks belong? And you think that they will give at least one cent for free? Roughly speaking, from there and the debts of the US state.
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply April 27 2013 13: 47
                        -1
                        Anti-semitism
                    2. Retriever
                      Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 09
                      -3
                      Why people do not listen to reason. They are told that with modern tank protection systems, it has no advantages over BMPs. But the BMP in terms of armament is several orders of magnitude superior to the tank. BMP can hit low-flying air targets, conduct artillery fire, hit armored targets, fire afloat (I hope it’s not worth talking about the ability to swim and landing). It is possible to enumerate the advantages for a long time; no, the tank is big and shiny.
                3. Aleks tv
                  Aleks tv April 29 2013 13: 51
                  +6
                  Quote: Professor
                  real growth of the American economy in the first quarter of this year amounted to 2.5%.


                  Dear Professor,
                  The fact is that the United States applied a new calculation of GDP, stuffing everything that is possible there: intellectual property and other intangible fixtures and similar crap.
                  Quote: “However, the US economy will still get something. At least on paper. To begin with, America, having produced virtually no added value, will add about 400 billions of dollars to the debit already in July this year. ”
                  Even with such a stretch, the pants on the pants planned to pull out the GDP to 3,2%. Bummer. Even “paper” turned out to be 2,5%. The states both lived and continue to live on borrowed money.
                  Infa in the internet on this issue abound.

                  About the tanks:
                  I would be very glad if other countries cease to produce and upgrade these main combat vehicles.
                  Do you need tanks? Well, just great. Happy for you. What do we have to do with it?
                  And in our country, theoretical TVDs are too diverse. This is the first session of the first year of the military school. Even there is no desire to discuss the types and types of weapons and the effectiveness of their use by units.
                  We just need them.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor April 29 2013 14: 17
                    -8
                    The fact is that the US has applied a new calculation of GDP

                    In addition to GDP, there are unemployment indicators whose indicators are breaking new positive records.

                    We just need them.

                    The master is the master. Once needed, let them be. From a technical point of view, the tank is the embodiment of the latest technology, so it is always interesting to see what's new in the world.
                    1. Aleks tv
                      Aleks tv April 29 2013 14: 50
                      +5
                      Quote: Professor
                      In addition to GDP, there are unemployment indicators whose indicators are breaking new positive records.


                      Request: do not flood.
                      See the data: Challenger Job Cuts, Initial Jobless Claims, and a dozen more unemployment statistics, just too lazy to write.

                      Not to mention the rest of the macroeconomic data.

                      Why prove something if it’s publicly available. No comments.
                    2. Professor
                      Professor April 29 2013 14: 59
                      -6
                      Quote: Aleks tv
                      just too lazy to write.

                      Read is not laziness?
                      UNITED STATES UNEMPLOYMENT RATE

                      Bureau of Labor Statistics of the US Department of Labor
                      Clear business Americans lie. laughing
                    3. Aleks tv
                      Aleks tv April 29 2013 15: 40
                      +4
                      Quote: Professor
                      Read is not laziness?


                      Professor, well, they gently corrected you that the GDP growth in the states is bullshit, so you began to frantically look for some kind of improvement anywhere, to bet you would argue, at least according to unemployment ...
                      I repeat once again: the labor market qualifies according to a set of parameters. Let's throw the tables and charts into the forum?
                      Let's go over the index of construction and sales of real estate, ISM data?
                      Yes, really - laziness.
                      But in the end, we agree with the statements of the head of the US Federal Reserve Ben Bernaké that the economy is full of crap, and especially in the labor market.
                      What to discuss then? Why flood? I personally feel sorry for the time.
                    4. Professor
                      Professor April 29 2013 15: 51
                      -7
                      Professor, well, you gently corrected that the growth of GDP in the states is bullshit,

                      Far from bullshit, I can throw links to this and exchange activity breaking records and facts on reducing unemployment are facts, not juggling with numbers.

                      Why flood? I personally feel sorry for the time

                      So and do not flood. hi
              2. medvedron
                medvedron 24 October 2017 23: 42
                +1
                That is something Ukrainians in the Donbass do without aviation, but without tanks, well, no matter how. You would explain to them that the tank is actually the last century, you see the militia will be easier. wassat
      2. Papakiko
        Papakiko April 27 2013 10: 49
        11
        Quote: Professor
        The tank is dead, long live the tank

        More years of service will be operated.
        Dear PROFESSOR, please tell us what you know by:
        According to the report of the Israeli army, in this conflict, 46 Merkava tanks received various injuries from enemy fire (all types of impact). In 24 cases, the armor was pierced, in 3 of these cases the ammunition detonated. Irretrievable losses from missiles of all types, including Kornet-E, amounted to only 3 tanks (one each of Merkava-2, Merkava-3 and Merkava-4)
        I understand that in THREE cases the "dancers" were torn to pieces.
        In 24 cases, armor was broken- How long did it take to restore these, how much $ was spent on repairs and how many "tans" were later written off from this number to the salary? hi
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 10: 55
          -4
          Those that were subject to recovery did not write off a single one. Part was restored on the spot (repair crews were always on top). How much $ has gone is not disclosed.

          More years of service will be operated.



        2. Aaron Zawi
          Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 14: 17
          -1
          [quote = Papakiko] [quote = professor]
          I understand that in THREE cases the "dancers" were torn to pieces.
          In 24 cases, armor was broken- How long did it take to restore these, how much $ was spent on repairs and how many "tans" were later written off from this number to the salary? hi[/ quote] in 24 cases during penetration there were losses among the crews. The defeat of armored vehicles with a temporary loss of combat capability was about 50. 3 / 4 from the tanks returned to service within 48 hours. The tank repair plant received only 7 vehicles.
          1. Papakiko
            Papakiko April 27 2013 16: 12
            +7
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            The defeat of armored vehicles with a temporary loss of combat capability was about 50. 3/4 of the tanks returned to service within 48 hours. The tank repair plant received only 7 vehicles.

            From this it follows that 34 "tankettes" returned to service, 7 pcs. taken to the plant, 3 pcs. delivered in scrap
            And-and-and-and-and-and-and-2 pcs. on ZP dismantled or lost or Lebanese capture?
            Where did 2 pcs go?
            Those that were subject to recovery did not write off a single one. Part restored on the spot.
            Normal Jewish answer good
            Well, he knows what interests, specifics in pictures in color and smell.
            Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 21: 03
              -8
              Well, he knows what interests, specifics in pictures in color and smell.
              Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting.

              Shyaz, overclocked, in pictures and with color. wassat
              1. Papakiko
                Papakiko April 27 2013 21: 57
                +5
                Quote: Professor
                Shyaz, accelerated

                What kind of need is it that plunges you into stinginess and greed?
                I'll lighten your mood a bit:

                Here a clear view of the Jews in Russia and in Israel is presented.

                Let's share the information on the "carrot".
              2. Professor
                Professor April 27 2013 22: 00
                -6
                I said, "No." Which of the letters in this capacious Russian word is not clear?
              3. Papakiko
                Papakiko April 28 2013 01: 12
                +7
                Quote: Professor
                I said: "No"

                м.
                Dear GER Professor, I’m not sure where I can apply your NO. Moreover, before you did not use it in the form of a refusal or disagreement when communicating with me.
                How to be what is greed?
                Absence, lack of predicate
                About the absence of smth .; not available, not available, not exist.
                Used in the expression of concession; corresponds to the meaning of the word: however, for all that (usually in combination with amplifying particles: yes, well, same).
                Used when the answer is no.
                Used at the beginning of a replica interrupting the interlocutor, or at the beginning of an objection to the interlocutor.
                Used inside speech when amending.
                Used when expressing a ban on the commission of actions.
                Used in the expression of surprise, distrust.
                Used to reinforce previously expressed denial.
              4. svp67
                svp67 April 28 2013 09: 17
                +5
                Quote: Professor
                I said, "No." Which of the letters in this capacious Russian word is not clear?
                In the Russian language, letters do not have the main meaning, the main thing is the stress and what else is written between them wink
  2. bask
    bask April 27 2013 11: 01
    +5
    Quote: Professor
    I will not repeat myself, however, the leading tank powers either have already stopped the production of tanks or are

    Something I, not hearing that Israel stopped producing ,, carrot-4 ,,. Yu. Korea begins the production of K-2, Turkey MBT ,, Altai, China Type-99.
    MBTs are not needed if a war is being carried out, gunboats, with 100% air supremacy.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 11: 05
      -4
      Something I, not hearing that Israel stopped producing ,, carrot-4 ,,. Yu. Korea begins the production of K-2, Turkey MBT ,, Altai, China Type-99.

      Did not hear? So take a look.
      South Korea will postpone K2 tank production for 2014 year

      IDF stops production of Merkava 4 tanks and Namer armored personnel carriers

      About such as Turkey and China, that article is separately written.
      1. bask
        bask April 27 2013 12: 02
        +5
        Quote: Professor
        HAL stopped production of Merkava 4 tanks and Namer armored personnel carriers

        These are just words. Facts are links?
        BTR-T, Namer, production in Arizona for money from the United States was not stopped by anyone.
      2. bask
        bask April 27 2013 12: 25
        +4
        Quote: Professor
        Did not hear? So look

        What to watch? Against the Palestinians ,, politics ,,, gunboats ,,. Attacks from UAVs and ,, Apaches, from a safe state.
        And in ,, Merkavu ,, and ,, Intention, it’s important to get ,, Kotnet ,, and the end of the crew.
        Therefore, the Supreme and Israel made a bet on attack helicopters and UAVs ... Well, and not at any risk, to be destroyed by return fire.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 12: 31
          -6
          Quote: bask
          These are just words. Facts are links?
          BTR-T, Namer, production in Arizona for money from the United States was not stopped by anyone.

          These are facts.
          Intamer is not a tank and is not yet produced in America.

          Against the Palestinians ,, politics ,,, gunboats ,,. Attacks from UAVs and ,, Apaches, from a safe state.
          And in ,, Merkavu ,, and ,, Intention, it’s important to get ,, Kotnet ,, and the end of the crew.

          And I about it. Tanks are only good against rebels.
          Nevertheless, KAZ Merkava successfully intercepted Cornet in real hostilities. hi
      3. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 14: 20
        -1
        Quote: Professor


        Let's bet that "carrots" are produced in full? lol
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 14: 24
          -3
          I bet that Genshatb said that Merkava-5 will not be? wink
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 14: 33
            0
            Quote: Professor
            I bet that Genshatb said that Merkava-5 will not be? wink

            I want to request Here the other day, one general said that the number of soldiers in combat units (including reservist ones) had decreased in 30 years and all arctic foxes if they cut the budget, and the General Staff's personnel department yesterday announced a planned transfer to the "second stage" reserve, practically writing off, 150 thousand. reservists since they have no business. And this is understandable. In the 1973 army, which fought a war on two full-scale fronts and still covering the eastern border, there were 250 thousand people. Our General Staff frankly does not know what to do with the army, which with a general deployment will reach 750 thousand. And the law on general conscription and compulsory reserve service is obliged to fulfill.
          2. datur
            datur April 27 2013 19: 46
            +1
            I bet that Genshatb said that there will be no Merkava-5? - dissemble prohfesor, oh dissemble !!! the question was about the production of chariots, in general, and you are about developing a new one !!! ah-yi-yah not good wink !!!!
        2. bask
          bask April 28 2013 11: 36
          0
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Let's bet that "carrots" are produced in full

          Therefore, the production of BTR-T ,, Namer, and placed in the United States.
          "" "" Currently, all AFVs Namer are produced for the Israel Defense Forces, dividing the production capacity set up for Merkava tanks. Since the main force of the IDF Team would like to exhibit more vehicles than the plant can currently produce, in an attempt to quickly abandon outdated armored personnel carriers, UPM faces a tough choice - whether to minimize or even donate production of Merkava tanks, rush more Namer vehicles in the field, or turn to the United States and spend some of the foreign military funding (FMF) Washington allocates military aid to Israel, to purchase defense products made in the United States Israel hopes that if the Namer will be assembled in the United States, and sent to Israel for completion , with locally produced systems, the IDF will be able to speed up the process of fielding more vehicles in active units.
          [media = http: //defense-update.com/20100609_namer_in_the_usa.htm]
          1. Professor
            Professor April 28 2013 12: 20
            -1
            And again, what's the news? Is that Tzahal wants Namer, but there is no money and are trying to take American help? You would find about the production of Abrams in Lima.
          2. bask
            bask April 28 2013 16: 13
            0
            Quote: Professor
            And again, what's the news

            The fact that the production of carrots-4 in Israel is proceeding at the same pace. No one was going to stop the production of tanks.
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            Let's bet that "carrots" are produced in full

            Production of MBT
            Quote: Professor
            You would find about the production of Abrams in Lima.

            Does the TRIPLE triple? [Media = http: //www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx? Id = 192508] JERUSALEM POST 281/04/2013.
            "" Dynamics expects to complete contract negotiations by the end of this year, to expand the contract base by March 2015, with options until November 2019. If successful, production will take place at their joint Manufacturing Center in Lima, Ohio. This would allow Israel to purchase them with US military aid dollars, the Camp David peace accords, etc. General Dynamics "" "
            [media = http: //www.defenseindustrydaily.com/namer-israeli-leopard-coming-to-the-u
            sa-06620 /]
            28/04/2013 Sterling Heights, Michigan - General Dynamics Land Systems, a division of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been selected to enter into a contract with the Israeli Ministry of Defense for the Namer Merkava armored personnel carriers (APCs). Manufacturing Systems Center in Lima, Ohio. The underlying contract will be completed by March 2015, applies to November 2019 if all options are available.
            [media = http: //www.armyrecognition.com/november_2010_army_military_defense_indust
            ry_news / general_dynamics_selected_for_merkava_armored_personnel_carriers_namer_f
            or_israel.ht]
            Well, maybe enough pan.prof..already sick of your intention.
            Lopatov quote ,,
            Quote: Spade
            Remember the Russian proverb about a tricky ass and a bolt with a left thread?
            That's all
          3. Professor
            Professor April 28 2013 16: 37
            -1
            Production of MBT

            With this "full" tanks are produced less than written off. There are no more tanks in Israel than there were even 20 years ago.

            Well, maybe enough pan.prof..already sick of your intention.

            Again you are about the intentions that are going to do. What about tanks in America? And how do you like a tank for $ 12 million, excluding the cost of its operation? Not sick of such a massive tank? wink
  • saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm April 27 2013 13: 40
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    I will not repeat myself, however, the leading tank powers either have already stopped the production of tanks or are in the process.

    Waiting for Armata. I wanted to ask you how the American Congress allowed the sale of the Javelins to India or not, if it allowed them to compete with the Israeli Spikes.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 13: 59
      +1
      I wanted to ask you how the American Congress allowed the sale of the Javelins to India or not, if it allowed them to compete with the Spikes of Israel.

      The Americans did not agree to the sale of technology, Rafael agreed. The billions of dollars contract.
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 27 2013 20: 20
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        Americans disagreed

        As they say no and no trial. Good contract, I heard a little about him.
  • Sirocco
    Sirocco April 27 2013 15: 42
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    I will not repeat myself, however, the leading tank powers either have already stopped the production of tanks or are in the process.

    Pan professor, as the movie hero said. This is not serious. Something akin to SDI, only a turn. They drove into the race, and in your case, disarm. Then we can immediately take sticks and stones. In an urban battle, that’s it. Like the Palestinians laughing good
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 15: 46
      -5
      Poor Palestinians have repeatedly used the Cornet ATGM. Is it your stones? Concerning the leading tank powers, please bring the docs of building up or at least maintaining the existing tank potential.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco April 27 2013 16: 51
        +4
        And who told you that this potential is growing? (The situation is not the same as in the case of the Warsaw Pact.) There is none. Tank potential is maintained in the right amount. As is the case with strategic nuclear forces. I think you will not argue about the fact that the strategic nuclear forces of the countries that own it are being reduced? Upgrade, yes. But do not destroy. At the expense of stones, in the mid-90s a classmate from Israel came on vacation. He talked about the service, and the wound he received, with cobblestones on the head.
  • Temer
    Temer April 27 2013 16: 02
    +3
    tank powers either have already stopped producing tanks or are in the process.


    for example Israel? wink
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 16: 06
      -2
      Do not be lazy, I already posted the link here. hi
  • svp67
    svp67 April 28 2013 09: 10
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    The tank is dead, long live the tank

    Alas, so far there is no replacement for a tank on the battlefield, and the fact that production has been discontinued is enough to solve the proposed tasks on the battlefield with a stock of those and such tanks that have already been produced, although there is a reservation here. Russia doesn't think so, that's why it is creating "Armata" ...
  • Retriever
    Retriever 4 May 2013 09: 03
    0
    I agree. until new ways have been devised to provide protection for the tank in the red. If tanks and infantry fighting vehicles are hit with equal efficiency, why overpay. And having more firing points on the battlefield, you can crush the enemy. But now BMP-3 in terms of armament completely surpasses the tank.
  • mvg
    mvg 13 November 2013 06: 23
    0
    therefore, the Saudis buy new a7 leopards, and America is constantly upgrading abram .. and ammunition. and we are doing armature. how to fight on earth?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 03
    +5
    PU is not disposable.
    If you want to compare its cost, compare it with 3.5 tanks. As far as I remember, the performance indicator of ATGM in defense is as follows.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 10: 23
      -1
      There is nothing to compare here, ATGM is always cheaper than a tank.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply April 27 2013 13: 48
        +1
        But much more expensive than a shell
  • Pimply
    Pimply April 27 2013 13: 45
    +9
    The tank is not atavism. It is effectively used, and there is often no replacement tank at the moment. The tank was buried dozens of times. And, nevertheless, it is in demand. A soldier in body armor can be killed by a modern bullet or grenade. Does it mean that the soldier needs to be removed and he is not in demand. Aircraft can be destroyed by MANPADS. The plane is not suitable?
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 14: 01
      -6
      And, nevertheless, it is in demand.

      By whom? World trendsetters of tank building curtail its production.
      1. bask
        bask April 27 2013 17: 33
        +4
        Quote: Professor
        tank trendsetters curtail its production.

        And they are developing the 5th carrot ... bully
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 21: 07
          -2
          And they are developing the 5th carrot ...

          TOP SECRET on YouTube. Cool. good
      2. Slevinst
        Slevinst April 27 2013 19: 07
        +2
        I’m wondering who you call the world’s fashion-lovers? Until recently, it was the USSR, then Israel. Who right now. With Israel, everything is clear. The little country has a lot of tanks. They do not sell them. Why ramp up production? A tank will always be effective if there is no one left on the battlefield against ground and air opponents at the same time. With appropriate support, the tank will always be. And those who reduce their release personally they do not need it. They’re not going to fight or there’s nothing to take from them.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 21: 10
          -1
          I’m wondering who you call the world’s fashion-lovers?

          The original Russian word tank wink (Great Britain), AZ (France), DZ (Israel), we will not forget Germany, Russia and America. And where are the new tanks? Some already do not develop anything, others only threaten.
          1. bask
            bask April 27 2013 21: 35
            +2
            Quote: Professor
            . And where are the new tanks?

            New tanks in Asia. China, Japan, South Korea. Where they are preparing to fight, against the enemy armed not only with stones and sticks, new MBTs are being developed and adopted there.
            Japan adopted its new Type 2012 tank in January 10.


            Where they plan to fight with the Abaregens, they will use armored vehicles for arming.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 21: 47
              +1
              Everything is clear about China, about Korea I have already posted the link (do you have a more recent refuting?) Japan is going to release Type-10 already in 2015 with a total of 80 !!! pieces and (hold on) at a price of $ 11.3 apiece. In 2010, I ordered as many as 13 pieces at a price (¥ 954 million = 11.9 million dollars per piece). What is not a mass tank? lol
              http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=414
  • Kars
    Kars April 27 2013 09: 55
    +4
    Quote: Spade
    The cost of the rocket must be compared with the cost of the tank.

    Generally at the cost of an element of dynamic defense, or a combat unit KAZ.
    Well, also throw on the fact that out of 10 expensive ATGMs in the army, during the war, and not beating Aboriginal people, 2 will be lost, 3 will die in the destroyed supply machine, one will be defective / dropped, two will lose the operator from art preparation, one will miss.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 01
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      Generally at the cost of an element of dynamic defense, or a combat unit KAZ.

      This is if it does not break.
      1. Kars
        Kars April 27 2013 10: 08
        +5
        Quote: Spade
        This is if it does not break.

        and even if it breaks through, it may well be that the tank will remain combat-ready, or there will be a need for a little repair.
        Vet not every penetration leads to the complete destruction of the tank.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 16
          +2
          Anyway, I think that the damage will significantly exceed the cost of the rocket.
          In addition, it will lead the tank out of battle, which will contribute to the fact that it will not already cause damage
          1. Kars
            Kars April 27 2013 10: 45
            +4
            Quote: Spade
            Anyway, I think that the damage will significantly exceed the cost of the rocket.

            It may or may not be. Without forgetting that there are not so many chances to break if you shoot not on the T-55
            Quote: Spade
            In addition, it will lead the tank out of battle, which will contribute to the fact that it will not already cause damage

            For a while, but this is not the only one, and it’s not a fact that after the launch of the launcher and the calculation of the anti-tank systems it will remain long.

            It’s a pity that the professor ignores me))) writes that the tank is atavism)) and the ATGM is cooler, the tank will become atavism when it is replaced and its tasks will be carried out by the same ATGM
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov April 27 2013 11: 41
              +1
              Tank replacement is unlikely.

              But if we compare the effectiveness of the same Sprut-SD and the promising self-propelled anti-tank system for the Airborne Forces based on the Kornet-Shell, the second is better both in terms of destruction of armored objects and in terms of destruction of point targets, incl. in buildings and fortifications. And cheaper.

              I don’t understand one thing, why there are no self-propelled anti-tank systems with stabilized weapons. Not a particularly technical challenge.
              1. cyclist
                cyclist April 27 2013 11: 59
                +1
                “I don’t understand one thing, why there are no self-propelled anti-tank systems with stabilized weapons. Not a particularly difficult task from a technical point of view.”
                what I think that it is not so much the cost-effectiveness criterion that plays a role here, but also the usual camouflage, most likely military experts considered self-propelled ATGMs to be an unnecessary and ineffective idea, although it seems that something like this was implemented in the Pantsir air defense system
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 27 2013 12: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: cyclist
                  most likely military experts considered the self-propelled anti-tank systems to be an unnecessary and ineffective idea

                  I'm afraid you are somewhat mistaken.
                  Currently in service are "Competition", "Robot", "Shturm-S". The latter is being modernized. There are promising "Chrysanthemum", "Kornet-T", "Quartet", which can be installed on any light carrier.
                2. cyclist
                  cyclist April 27 2013 13: 03
                  +2
                  "At the moment there are still in service" Konkurs "," Robot "," Shturm-S ". The latter is being modernized. There are promising" Chrysanthemum "," Kornet-T "," Quartet "
                  I mean the anti-tank missile system stabilizer. Here we need to understand the target designation and guidance systems of missiles, at the cornet by the laser beam, from Chrysanthemum, as I remember from the radar and the laser beam. YES and it’s not by chance that the range was chosen 5 km. If such distances are rare in urban EUROPE, then in the central zone of Russia, such an effective range will cover a large sector of fire. That is, if the ATGM moves on the battlefield, therefore due to folds the terrain of other buildings, the goal is a tank, it can simply disappear from view, and unnecessary de-masking movements are useless
                3. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 14
                  +1
                  In modern combat, a machine forced to fire from a place, especially if it’s a second-generation ATGM, is doomed.

                  ATGM does not need to stabilize the launcher, only the sight and optics of the control system. Judging by the number of stabilized modules for small arms, the task is trivial.

                  The tank and when managing a rocket in place can hide behind the folds of the terrain. Therefore, good operators are needed to redirect the missile, or to evaluate the possible trajectory of the target.
                4. cyclist
                  cyclist April 27 2013 13: 53
                  +1
                  "A tank can hide behind the folds of the terrain even when controlling a missile on the spot. That's why good operators are needed to redirect missiles."
                  At the expense of good operators, no one doubts, with an effective range of 3-5 km., And with a difficult terrain if the tank moves, and the ATGM itself moves with laser illumination of targets, the possibility of losing missile control increases! Would you advise this decision to the designers of self-propelled artillery complexes and tanks, maybe we would have got a super weapon - a sort of howitzer shoots on the go, combines whatever the tank wants with it, and it’s not against the enemy helicopters to shoot at enemy helicopters
                5. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 27 2013 14: 11
                  +1
                  Quote: cyclist
                  At the expense of good operators, no one doubts, with an effective range of 3-5 km., And with a difficult terrain if the tank moves, and the ATGM itself moves with laser illumination of targets, the possibility of losing missile control increases!

                  Not much. Considering higher security, the decision is justified.

                  Quote: cyclist
                  we would have got a super weapon - a sort of howitzer shoots on the go, it combines all the properties of a tank with everything you want, ATGM and even against enemy helicopters

                  Already appeared. T-90, BMP-3 ...
                6. cyclist
                  cyclist April 27 2013 14: 33
                  +1
                  "It has already appeared. T-90, BMP-3 .." what I’ve also talked about unmasking signs, that is, the ATGM firing position should be masked, what is the point of driving around on the battlefield if anti-tank weapons are usually destroyed in the first place, and on the basis of which self-propelled ATGMs are made, the same Chrysanthemum on the basis of BMP_3! for a long time it will be enough with insignificant booking, it’s better to shoot and go to hell away from the battlefield
                7. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 27 2013 19: 24
                  +1
                  Where to go? Here you have 9 cars, here’s a milestone of 2 km along the front. Here is the advancing battalion tactical group of the enemy. Your task is to force her to turn into a battle formation for an attack, and to hold her while his infantry is behind you. Win some time.
                  It’s all about an adult, for leaving the frontier a tribunal, a ravine, two escorts and a special police officer who will lead the sentence to execution.

                  In the installation of anti-tank systems on staff at the driver of the RPKS, at the operator-RPG. Do you know why? When enemy tanks drive closer than the minimum launch range, the survivors will leave the vehicles and continue to fight. One strikes equipment, the other works on infantry
                8. cyclist
                  cyclist April 28 2013 02: 06
                  0
                  "Where should I go?"
                  how to where, in the depths of defense!
                  "Your task is to force her to turn into battle formation for an attack, and to hold her back while your own infantry takes positions behind you."
                  then why do I need self-propelled anti-tank systems, I can shoot from an ATGM tank, the same range, there is a stabilizer, and besides, a 125-mm gun with HE shells will be more effective than self-propelled anti-tank systems
                9. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 28 2013 08: 56
                  +1
                  Not, dear, tanks are tanks. They, as expected, along with the infantry act. And they take up defense along with it, while the anti-tank reserve, dying, wins time for them, giving them the opportunity to gain a foothold, entrench themselves, organize interaction, and so on.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 27 2013 17: 03
    +1
    And for the price, go comparable to a tank, but he can’t do it anymore.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov April 27 2013 19: 26
    +1
    He can do everything. Modern ATGMs have not only cumulative warheads, but also high-explosive ones with volume.
  • Scythian 35
    Scythian 35 April 27 2013 20: 24
    0
    the projectile flies faster than the missile, it may happen that the operator doesn’t bring the missile to the target — it will kiss the projectile !!!
  • Professor
    Professor April 27 2013 21: 12
    -8
    Is this this operator? And how will he be noticed from the tank and at what distance? "Shot - forgot" forgotten?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov April 27 2013 21: 35
    +1
    Dead body. Chinese tanks already have an optical detection and suppression system. Suppression while the tower unfolds.

    Remember the Russian proverb about a tricky ass and a bolt with a left thread?
  • bask
    bask April 27 2013 21: 41
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    ? And he will be noticed from the tank and at what distance

    Intelligence, military intelligence, will detect and notice. Aerial reconnaissance with UAVs.
  • Professor
    Professor April 27 2013 21: 54
    -1
    Quote: bask
    Quote: Professor
    ? And he will be noticed from the tank and at what distance

    Intelligence, military intelligence, will detect and notice. Aerial reconnaissance with UAVs.

    The paradox is that those who have similar reconnaissance equipment (battalion-level UAVs) are just these tanks that are being reduced. So nobody will notice this fighter with ATGM 2 km from the tank, but there are also long-range ATGMs, right up to 25 km.


    There is such an option, not a single tank will pass.
  • Papakiko
    Papakiko April 28 2013 12: 01
    +1
    "Black" stones of the evil sorceress Gingema are obtained. lol
  • cyclist
    cyclist April 28 2013 02: 09
    0
    about tanks their opinion, but the advantage of portable ATGMs over self-propelled in terms of masking is obvious
  • Kars
    Kars April 27 2013 12: 23
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    the same "Sprut-SD

    Is it a tank?
    Quote: Spade
    a promising self-propelled ATGM for the Airborne Forces based on the "Cornet" - "Shells", the second one is better both in terms of destruction of armored objects, and in terms of destruction of point targets, incl. in buildings and fortifications. And cheaper.

    and if there are a lot of goals?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 12: 43
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      Is it a tank?

      He has stabilized weapons. This is a light tank.

      Quote: Kars
      and if there are a lot of goals?

      Group? It is better to hit them with artillery fire. The same "Nona". Or a machine that will replace it (theme "Crimp")
    2. Kars
      Kars April 27 2013 14: 24
      0
      Quote: Spade
      He has stabilized weapons. This is a light tank.

      Is the stabilizer a sign of a tank? And if you want to call an octopus light, you don’t want to call it, but for me it’s a tank destroyer. And a MOS in low-intensity operations.

      Quote: Spade
      Group?

      Though group, even single.
      Quote: Spade
      They are better hit by artillery fire

      Doesn’t it mean cheaper? In battle, a couple of dozens of firing points may turn out, now you don’t throw a machine gun,
      Quote: Spade
      The same "Nona"

      it’s possible, but it is much cheaper than a tank? at the same time it has weaker protection.
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 19: 28
      0
      Does the Airborne Forces have tanks? We're talking about them. They only have "Octopus" with protection like "Nona"
    4. Kars
      Kars April 27 2013 20: 58
      +1
      Quote: Spade
      Does the Airborne Forces have tanks? We are talking about them.

      I didn’t get it. And I DO NOT SPEAK about the Airborne Forces, in principle.

      Quote: Spade
      They only have "Octopus" with protection like "Nona"

      And not that, not that not a tank.
    5. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 21: 38
      +1
      It means that they did not understand each other. I'm talking about a specific "assault tank" that has no analogues in the world. And that the self-propelled ATGM will be able to perform the tasks assigned to it much more efficiently.
  • bask
    bask April 27 2013 22: 05
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Is the stabilizer a sign of a tank? And you want to call the octopus light, do not call, but for me,

    ,, Octopus-D ,, is a light tank. If there is an OFS in the combat unit.
    Quote: Spade
    Are there any airborne forces? We're talking about them. They only have "Octopus" with protection like "Nona"

    Protection-dimensions, everything dictates, aerial identifiability of the object. Weight characteristics of transporters and parachute systems. If, together with a light tank, you drop a set of quick-mounted mounted armor + DZ. This will increase the fighting characteristics of a light tank at times.
    CLARA dynamic protection container developed for BMP ,,, Marder-1A3 ,,
  • Kars
    Kars April 27 2013 22: 13
    0
    Quote: bask
    , Octopus-D, is a light tank. If there is an OFS in the combat unit.

    And this is what? BMP 1 also has an OFS, then what is it a tank?
  • bask
    bask April 28 2013 07: 02
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And this is what? BMP 1 also has an OFS, then what is it a tank?

    BMP 1 is not a good example.
    All modern infantry fighting vehicles are unified platforms. In which there is, a variant of a light-medium tank.
    BMP- light tank ,, ASCOD 105 ,, crew of 4 people 1. commander, 2. driver, 3. guide 4. charging. The driver's seat is located in front of the car at the port side. The working places of the rest of the crew in the tower. The gunner and commander are located to the right of the gun, and the loader to the left. ASCOD BMP includes- light tank LT105, chassis for air defense systems and ZSU, SPTRK, 81-mm and 120-mm self-propelled mortar AMC120, BREM, BRM, control and communications machine and ambulance.
    And such multifunctionality is modularity. ,, SV 90, Marder ,,, Andres, etc.
  • Kars
    Kars April 28 2013 09: 13
    0
    Quote: bask
    BMP 1 is not a good example.

    Well, he does have OFS shells.

    Quote: bask
    And such multifunctionality is modularity. ,, SV 90, Marder ,,, Andres, etc.

    Only in terms of mass they are already medium tanks, even though they do not pull on tanks.

    And mine we are going in circles, exactly the same was literally a month ago.

    and Octopus SD is a tank destroyer / tank destroyer, even though you can call it a tank, whatever you want.
  • bask
    bask April 28 2013 12: 54
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Only in terms of mass they are already medium tanks, even though they do not pull on tanks.

    Then give a clear definition of a light, medium tank.?
    And what do the world’s Internet magazines write. Calling the BMP in the version of a light, medium tank., Is everything wrong? There are versions of self-propelled mortars, self-propelled guns, assault guns. ASCOD, including a remote 105 mm gun and two conventional towers, armed with 105 mm guns. General Dynamics designed the turret with a 120 mm smoothbore gun from OTO Melara. According to Lockheed Martin, the ASCOD extended chassis is used as a base for 155-mm Donar artillery systems. Also, the Russian ones are promising. ,, Boomerang ,, Kurganets ,, Armata ,,
  • Kars
    Kars April 28 2013 13: 14
    0
    Quote: bask
    Then give a clear definition of a light, medium tank.?

    Use old definitions from Soviet military manuals.

    Quote: bask
    And what the world’s online magazines write.

    World Internet magazines are not responsible for their words, as are Internet translators.
    Quote: bask
    .Naming BMP in the version of the light, medium tank

    Yes, whatever you want to call, but they will not become them from this.

    Quote: bask
    St version of self-propelled mortars, self-propelled guns, assault guns. ASCOD, including a remote 105 mm gun and two conventional towers, armed with 105 mm guns. General Dynamics designed the turret with a 120 mm smoothbore gun from OTO Melara.

    This is just a game of private traders in the hope of profit.

    Those BTR 3 have a light wheeled tank))) These are all advertising names.
  • beard999
    beard999 April 27 2013 17: 40
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Somewhat more: $ 40'000

    Where does the information come from? Do you have a link that explicitly states that the cost of one ATGM 9M133 is $ 40000?
    Quote: Professor
    the cost of one complex is $ 102'459

    Those. Do you agree and Spike-LR costs almost $ 200000?
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 21: 13
      -4
      How did they figure it out with the Spike optical seeker? wink
      1. beard999
        beard999 April 28 2013 00: 53
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        ak there with the optical ghost Spike, figured it out?

        So I answered you in the next topic. Look there. And, yes, by the way - it is precisely the “optical GOS” in “Spike” not. Just in case, if you are suddenly not in the know: GOS is the Head of the SELF Guidance. And for you, I see, is this still news?
        And on the subject of your sketch, about "40000", for the Cornet rocket, do you have absolutely nothing to say? Do you want to answer for your words?
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 08: 06
          -3
          GOS is the Self Guidance Head

          Thank you, but I didn’t know. Is it optical by definition? laughing

          And on the subject of your sketch, about "40000", for the Cornet rocket, do you have absolutely nothing to say?

          You have nothing to say. I can’t imagine invoices in view of their absence at hand, and the link to the news site of the buyer's country will certainly not suit you.

          Do you want to answer for your words?

          Do you want to score an arrow? wink
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 01
            0
            Does Spike have a real optical seeker? No jokes.
            Remember the image of the target during capture and directs the rocket in automatic mode?
            1. Professor
              Professor April 28 2013 09: 05
              -1
              Quote: Spade
              Does Spike have a real optical seeker? No jokes.
              Remember the image of the target during capture and directs the rocket in automatic mode?

              Exactly (except minispike). And again this video, pay attention to optical (not a thermal image).
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 17
                0
                That is, in the GOS missile there is an optical recognition system? In principle, it is possible, but most likely homing missiles deals with the IR channel, which remembers the unique signature of the target, and optics provide the operator with the work to adjust or redirect the missile to another target in flight.
                It is painfully smart that the GOS should be in order to provide full optical guidance
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 28 2013 09: 26
                  -1
                  It is painfully smart that the GOS should be in order to provide full optical guidance

                  Optical Pattern Recognition is the topic of my dissertation. There is nothing super-smart in recognizing optical images (to teach a rocket to distinguish independently, say Abrams from Merkava, is more difficult, but this is already implemented). The direction has been developing since 1964 and a powerful breakthrough has been made recently. So the GOS Spike is guided in an optical image without problems (in any case, I have not seen complaints about poor capture).
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 35
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    to teach a rocket to independently distinguish, say Abrams from Merkava, is more difficult, but this is already embodied

                    Why is it so complicated? There, at the Kazan station there is a face recognition system that provides fishing for those on the wanted list.

                    The question is about the capabilities of brains charged in GOS
                  2. Professor
                    Professor April 28 2013 09: 51
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    Why is it so complicated? There, at the Kazan station there is a face recognition system that provides fishing for those on the wanted list.

                    Ohhh, this is not easy. Until you come up with artificial intelligence, you have to fester. Why is it difficult to teach a computer to read simple letters?
                  3. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 58
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    Ohhh, this is not easy.

                    And why the rocket needs powerful enough "brains"? smile
                  4. Professor
                    Professor April 28 2013 10: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    And why the rocket needs powerful enough "brains"?

                    100%, the Raphael algorithms department is not the smallest and many faculties of famous universities can envy the number of doctors working there. Raphael has its own fab. However, the optics themselves are also advanced, I personally liked the ceramic transparent cap of the GOS.
                  5. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 28 2013 14: 41
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    I personally liked the ceramic transparent cap of the GOS.

                    Sapphire is stronger in theory
                  6. Professor
                    Professor April 28 2013 15: 04
                    -1
                    Sapphire is stronger in theory

                    And sapphire is ceramic, alumina, Al2O3 or aluminine. hi
                  7. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 28 2013 15: 15
                    +1
                    Here you are confused. Sapphire crystal is not ceramic. Unlike her, it is not obtained by firing, but grown, like other artificial crystals.

                    And nothing advanced there, many things have been produced from this glass for a long time. From watch glasses starting, and ending with portholes of inhabited spacecraft.
                  8. Professor
                    Professor April 28 2013 15: 31
                    -2
                    I don’t confuse at all, sapphire is ceramics, single crystal polycrystal aluminum.
                    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%80
                    Advanced technology for growing crystals of this size and precise grinding.
                  9. Refund_SSSR
                    Refund_SSSR April 29 2013 05: 37
                    +2
                    Do you know the difference between Graphite (brittle and not durable) and Diamond (one of the most durable minerals) ???
                    About the same difference between ceramics and corundum (sapphire)

                    The chemical formula does not reflect the properties of the material;) And this is a school course ... Do you have a bad education in Israel?
                  10. Professor
                    Professor April 29 2013 07: 41
                    0
                    Quote: We refund_SSSR
                    The chemical formula does not reflect the properties of the material;) And this is a school course ... Do you have a bad education in Israel?

                    Terribly with education, the professor of material science received the Nobel Prize for the thieves. laughing


                    Read how ceramics became transparent and did not cease being ceramics.
                    Transparent Alumina - Three Times Stronger Than Steel

                    You can take a walk "transparent ceramics", you will find a lot of interesting things for yourself.
                  11. mvg
                    mvg 23 September 2013 01: 06
                    +1
                    professor, respect, for the prize ... good
          2. leon-iv
            leon-iv April 29 2013 15: 26
            0
            There is a question of classification, in particular by crystalline form. And application methods. So you're both right.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv April 29 2013 15: 10
    0
    Well, of course we didn’t finish the academies, but we worked with neural networks)))
    but you can post a piece of code

    for x: = 0 to 29 do
    for y: = 0 to 29 do begin
    n: = neuro_web [i] .memory [x, y];
    m: = neuro_web [i] .input [x, y];

    if ((abs (mn) <120)) then // Color difference threshold
    if m <250 then neuro_web [i] .weight: = neuro_web [i] .weight + 1; // In addition, we will not take into account white pixels in order not to get extra points in the weights
    if m <> 0 then begin
    if m <250 then n: = round ((n + (n + m) / 2) / 2);
    neuro_web [i] .memory [x, y]: = n; end
    else if n <> 0 then
    if m <250 then n: = round ((n + (n + m) / 2) / 2);
    neuro_web [i] .memory [x, y]: = n;

    end;

    Threat he rested his institute from the Habré; it was too lazy to essence the same thing further in training.
  • beard999
    beard999 April 28 2013 14: 11
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Thank you, but I didn’t know. Is it optical by definition?

    There is no optical GOS on Spike. Autonomous guidance on the target (realization “shot-forgot”) is carried out exclusively with the help of a matrix thermal imaging seeker. An optical-electronic device with a CCD array is included in the Spike anti-tank system, but is not part of the SAMO Guidance Head. This optoelectronic data transmission channel is used only when observing the phono-target situation through a rocket, and if necessary, MANUAL correction of target designation. Not a single official source, including Rafael, says that Spike-ER has a dual-channel GOS - optical thermal imaging. Such a blizzard is not even driven on a crow's bark.
    Quote: Professor
    A link to the news site of the buyer's country, of course, will not suit you.

    Well, why not? Will arrange. Give your link. It will be fun, I promise you.
    Quote: Professor
    Do you want to score an arrow?

    Judging by the wording of your question, you get extremely worthless under the thieves. But if you want to grind about the arrow - no question. In PM. And here, as I wrote to you earlier, answer for your words. I am waiting for confirmations about $ 40000 per rocket.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2013 14: 27
      -2
      There is no optical GOS on Spike. Autonomous guidance on the target (realization “shot-forgot”) is carried out exclusively with the help of a matrix thermal imaging seeker.

      You would at least sometimes support your fantasies with at least some evidence.

      Not a single official source, including Rafael, says that Spike-ER has a dual-channel GOS - optical thermal imaging.


      Here is the materiel for you.Product Name: SPIKE ER
      Spike-ER uses a day seeker or day / night seeker, tandem warhead, and retains the dual operation modes of Spike-Fire-and-Forget & Fire-Observe and Update.
      To translate what is day seeker and what wavelengths of daylight?

      SPIKE-ER
      Electro-optic CCD or dual (CCD / IIR) sensors
      I wonder what "dual" is and why is it at all if your CCD sees perfectly at night. Try to find the word "optical" Electro-optic CCD in the following phrase three times.

      I am waiting for confirmations about $ 40000 per rocket.

      I owe you nothing. Is not it?
      1. beard999
        beard999 April 29 2013 16: 11
        0
        Quote: Professor
        You would at least sometimes support your fantasies with at least some evidence.

        That is, it is not you who must prove the presence of an “optical seeker” on Spike-ER (which not a single source speaks of), but will I prove to you its absence? I look, you completely lost the coast, professor ...
      2. beard999
        beard999 April 29 2013 16: 14
        0
        Quote: Professor
        We would at least sometimes support our fantasies with at least some evidence.

        That is, it is not you who must prove the presence of an “optical seeker” on Spike-ER (which not a single source speaks of), but will I prove to you its absence? I look, you completely lost the coast, professor ...
        Quote: Professor
        Here is the materiel

        Well, first of all, this is not a “materiel”, but only a Rafael page dedicated to Spike-ER. Secondly, and this is important, it says that the missile control system searches for targets (seeker) in the daytime or in the day / night mode. So what? On the same page there is an advertising booklet http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/3/923.pdf. It says more clearly - "They have sophisticated electro-optic CCD / IIR sensors for operation during the day, at night and in adverse weather conditions." That's all. Everything corresponds to well-known information. Detection of targets and guidance on them is possible both through the thermal imaging channel and through the charge-coupled opto-electronic device (which for some reason you consider to be an exclusively day channel, and I - executed on an image intensifier tube and, accordingly, day-night). But homing implements only thermal imaging matrix GOS. Through an optical-electronic device with a CCD matrix, target detection and guidance are possible, but only in MANUAL mode. Not any homing. None of the official sources speak of the presence on Spike-ER of an optical seeker that implements “autonomous guidance.” Nowhere is it said that a camera with a CCD matrix can remember the target image and realize “shot-forgot” in optical mode (only in the thermal imaging http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/aat/spike-er.html).
        Quote: Professor
        I owe you nothing. Is not it?

        Of course. I should understand that talking about the cost of ATGM 9M133 at $ 40000, are you leaking?
  • svp67
    svp67 April 28 2013 09: 06
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Somewhat more: $ 40, but the tank is more expensive.

    PS
    Judging by the Peruvian poster in the article, the cost of one complex is $ 102'459


    This is the purchase price, which can vary, and the cost is much lower. In addition, this is the cost of the entire complex ...
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2013 09: 09
      -1
      Quote: svp67
      This is the purchase price, which can vary, and the cost is much lower

      IMHO is not much lower, and what is the value of the cost? Is it delivered to the native army at cost?
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 28 2013 09: 23
        0
        Quote: Professor
        IMHO is not much lower, and what is the value of the cost? Is it delivered to the native army at cost?

        At the moment, of course not, but at any moment we can do it ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 36
          0
          As far as I know, "Cornets" are not supplied to the troops at all.
  • Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith April 27 2013 17: 27
    +3
    Combat units:

    Tandem Cumulative:

    Weight BB: 4,6 kg

    Penetration for DZ:
    Cornet-E - 1200 mm homogeneous armor
    Cornet D 1300 mm homogeneous armor

    Penetration without DZ:
    Cornet-E - 1300 mm homogeneous armor
    Cornet D 1400 mm homogeneous armor
    Concrete Monolith: not less than 3000 mm
  • Phantom Revolution
    Phantom Revolution April 28 2013 15: 10
    0
    Quote: Canep
    Not bad 1000 mm for steel and 3000 mm for concrete. Penetration is almost absolute. And the price compared to the cost of a tank or bunker is ridiculous, I don’t know for sure, but I think no more or something about 5000-10000 $.

    It’s not bad, but the Cornet isn’t new, more modern 4-5 generation systems are needed, and while we are marking time, I hope they are already developing something interesting.
  • Lenya Panteleev
    Lenya Panteleev 11 May 2017 07: 30
    0
    Concrete is the same ceramics. And ceramics has a great resistance against a comulative jet, since it does not behave like a quasi-fluid body and is devoid of a crystal lattice. Problem however ...
  • dep071
    dep071 26 September 2017 12: 28
    0
    Maximum firing range:
    In the afternoon - 5500 m
    At night - 3500 m
    Minimum firing range: 100 m
    Maximum target flank speed: 70 km / h
    Control system: semi-automatic, by laser beam
    Rocket Caliber: 152 mm
    Missile length: 1200 mm
    Maximum wing span: 460 mm
    Penetration for DZ:
    Cornet-E - 1200 mm Homogeneous Armor
    Cornet-D - 1300 mm Homogeneous Armor
    Penetration without DZ:
    Cornet-E - 1300 mm Homogeneous Armor
    Cornet-D - 1400 mm Homogeneous Armor
    Penetration of concrete monolith: not less than 3000 mm

    Mini cruise missile, damn it)))

    Here, the huge costs will now go to the T series, which everyone is afraid of, according to the media))), but at the same time, if the bearded Cortets appear, and they appear it’s a business trade in weapons and nothing personal, any tank with the most unrealistic protection will be destroyed.
    What is still noteworthy, I read on VO news, damn it or not on VO, that the modernized T-72s entered the troops.
  • Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk April 27 2013 07: 48
    +9
    And what is there to especially consider? The cornet "merkava" calms, and the ovskoe armored trough will calm down even more so, the "abrams" is nothing more than a typical product of ovs advertising.
    1. dep071
      dep071 26 September 2017 12: 37
      0
      Well, so will Armata, it’s a universal weapon. There are battle conditions, tactics, etc., if in the city, as we know, then any tank is vulnerable, if in the middle of the desert and visibility is 5 kilometers, then what's the difference.
      “Several (presumably 2) Kornet ATGMs were delivered to the Israel National Institute for the Study of Ammunition of the Engineering Forces of the Israel Defense Forces. [35]

      According to the Israeli authorities, on April 7, 2011, during the shelling of an Israeli school bus, Hamas fighters used the Kornet anti-tank system, which led to a diplomatic scandal between Israel and Russia [36]. "
      this is from wiki ..... edia
      If Hamas has damn partners, that is, throughout the Middle East.

      And so, in a childish way, put Merkava, Abrams and Armata in a row and shoot from the “shaitan pipe”)))) or from Cornet, then everything, someone earlier, and someone later will fall apart.
  • vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 April 27 2013 08: 32
    +5
    It seems to me that we know about Cornet only what everyone knows. I am sure that the developers probably have something in reserve, which very few know about.
    1. cyclist
      cyclist April 27 2013 09: 02
      +2
      do not reveal secrets - this is a military secret! We must assume a certain margin for the modernization of the complex may be laid during the design hi
    2. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 09: 14
      +1
      It seems to me that we know about Cornet only what everyone knows. I am sure that the developers probably have something in reserve, which very few know about.

      Everything is known about him, the trophy Cornets back in 2006 were dismantled to the cogs.

      IMHO, the whole article could be replaced with one sentence: no tank can resist Cornet if he gets into the tank.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 27 2013 09: 55
        +6
        Quote: Professor
        Everything is known about him, the trophy Cornets back in 2006 were dismantled to the cogs.

        Dismantled the export option, right?
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 10: 25
          +1
          But didn’t the export one already shoot-forget or 2-meter armor penetration?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 26
            +4
            I do not know. And your "disassembled by screw" do not know either.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 10: 55
              -3
              And your "disassembled by screw" do not know either.

              These know- Mossad is not sleeping. bully
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 27 2013 11: 42
                +4
                Contrary to popular belief, not everything is for sale here.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 11: 46
                  +1
                  Contrary to popular belief, not everything is for sale here.

                  What is not for sale is simply stolen. Some even stole the atomic bomb.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 27 2013 12: 22
                    0
                    It’s impossible to steal everything.
                  2. leon-iv
                    leon-iv April 29 2013 15: 17
                    0
                    Proff communicating with nuclear engineers for a glass of tea. They told me which floor the half-bike was. The bottom line is that the key question, yes or no, was important for the atomic program of the USSR. And then the paths diverge. converge after Puffs and then go in parallel.
                2. dep071
                  dep071 26 September 2017 12: 47
                  0
                  I am as optimistic as you are, but no one generalizes, much is being sold.
              2. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm April 27 2013 13: 42
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                These know- Mossad is not sleeping.

                Well, if Israel makes spy satellites for Russia.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 14: 02
                  +1
                  Quote: saturn.mmm
                  Quote: Professor
                  These know- Mossad is not sleeping.

                  Well, if Israel makes spy satellites for Russia.

                  This news also surprises me.
              3. svp67
                svp67 April 28 2013 09: 24
                0
                Quote: Professor
                These know- Mossad is not sleeping.
                But not all-powerful ... Or do you already think that you are equal to God?
        2. dep071
          dep071 26 September 2017 12: 41
          0
          "Several (presumably 2) Kornet ATGMs delivered to the Israel National Institute for the Study of Ammunition of the Engineering Forces of the Israel Defense Forces. [35]"
          from Wiki ... one ...
          The export option is not much different, maybe the range is smaller, the mass of extra substances is smaller, etc., but the principle of operation and the installation itself does not change, otherwise they will not buy.
  • Vinnipukh
    Vinnipukh April 27 2013 09: 30
    12
    Oh, the famous onoliteg, grandfather Rostopshin showed up).
    Rastopshin Mikhail Mikhailovich

    a brief description of

    Who is: Ph.D., a former employee of the Steel Research Institute (dismissed in 1985). Constantly published in the Military Industrial Courier, Independent Military Review (IEE), and Nezavisimaya Gazeta.

    What is falling on

    Criticizes the current state of the Russian armored vehicles, based on data from 20 years ago. At the same time, he is trying to compare them with nonexistent / promising developments of the USA and other Western countries.
    Very often it is corny lying, distorting the facts. He writes all articles as carbon copy, using the same one hundred times refuted arguments.
    http://onolitegi.ru/2010-02-02-17-33-09/58-rastopshin-m-m.html#.UXtvjKLwnh4
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 10: 05
      0
      And what are the claims to the article itself?
    2. Ratibor12
      Ratibor12 April 28 2013 02: 48
      +3
      Quote: VinniPukh
      Oh, the famous onoliteg, grandfather Rostopshin showed up).


      Exactly! I remember the scribble of this gov.nyuk from the late 90's. The specialization of this giant of thought is the permanent scum of Soviet / Russian tank building and ATGM / BPS.
      All of his super-idea can be described very briefly: see the figure.
  • Kars
    Kars April 27 2013 09: 50
    +3
    The tandem DZ that has appeared abroad is an almost insurmountable barrier for Russian ATGMs with tandem warheads.


    Did she appear? Milk thistle could give an example for decency.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov April 27 2013 09: 55
    +3
    Nice complex, of course. However, it already requires modernization.

    The main problem is weight. Launch weight 26 kg, plus 8.5 thermal imaging sight. Too much.

    Next is the vulnerability of the operator. In the future, the creation of 3 generation rockets launched from this installation (their use is not always economically justified, so the ability to shoot much cheaper second missiles is necessary), but at this stage, the implementation of remote control capabilities of launchers. Belarusians already have experience in creating a similar installation for the Ukrainian missile, it is worth cooperating with them.

    And finally, informatization. Sustainable management of installations by the unit commander, external target designation, the possibility of salvo firing at important targets, the possibility of using installations for notching targets with subsequent destruction by other fire weapons.

    It makes sense to expand the range of ammunition, the creation of an analogue of the Swedish "Bill", striking armored vehicles from above
    1. bask
      bask April 27 2013 10: 51
      +1
      Quote: Spade
      expansion of the range of ammunition, the creation of an analogue of the Swedish "Bill", striking armored vehicles

      For the ATGM, attacking from above, from any angle, the future. ,, Shot and forgot, this formula is for countries that have the means to buy expensive ATGM.
      Countries with a small budget will continue to buy ,, Carnets ,, Cost + efficiency, these complexes have no competitors in the world.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 27 2013 11: 45
        +2
        The future is precisely for "fire and forget". Second-generation missiles can only be used where it is safe to do so.

        A good PTRK operator is an expensive piece of goods that takes a long time to prepare. You can not make it disposable.
        1. Kars
          Kars April 27 2013 12: 24
          +1
          Quote: Spade
          A good PTRK operator is an expensive piece of goods that takes a long time to prepare

          Strange I thought the more complex the ATGM, the easier it should be to handle.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 17
            0
            On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, the Israeli "Spike" with a fiber-optic control line requires high training of operators.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 13: 22
              +1
              Quote: Spade
              On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, the Israeli "Spike" with a fiber-optic control line requires high training of operators.

              Quite the opposite. I saw, pointed with my thumb and fired. Next, the rocket does everything herself. If necessary, the same finger moved the label to another object. I shot on the simulator.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 39
                0
                Under enemy fire, I found a target, set up, grabbed a target, launched it, in the conditions of a limited time I evaluated the probability of defeat, the need for correction or redirection to another target - any monkey can be trained in an hour ...
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 14: 05
                  +1
                  Thanks for the monkey. laughing The range of Spike’s defeat is more than that of a tank, and it is unlikely to notice such a fighter from a tank. Then he shot and forgot. Shaking hands or not already does not matter.
                2. Kars
                  Kars April 27 2013 14: 18
                  +1
                  Quote: Spade
                  Yes, any monkey can be trained in an hour.

                  Well, I’m not a monkey, but it’s better to teach an ordinary soldier how to sartier to scrub. Although, in the understanding of some, it’s probably not possible to become a peasant.

                  Quote: Spade
                  Under enemy fire, he found a target, set up, grabbed a target, launched, in a limited time, assessed the probability of defeat, the need for correction or redirection to another target


                  if he and the ATGM are under enemy fire, well, success to him --- and the prof wrote that everything is so easy, he’s on the stand a couple of tanks that burned at once)))
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 27 2013 19: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, I’m not a monkey, but it’s better for a private to teach this than to sartiri.

                    At least an hour a day on simulators, plus real launches every half a year. Then it will be a good operator. Well, plus a bunch of other knowledge and skills. Plus PHYSO-hard work is the "portable" ATGM to carry.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars April 27 2013 21: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Spade
                      At least an hour a day on simulators, plus real launches every half a year. Then it will be a good operator. Well, plus a bunch of other knowledge and skills. Plus PHYSO-hard work is the "portable" ATGM to carry.

                      Here it is not necessary to complicate. And FIZO is also a mandatory program.

                      an hour a week. Real launches are only for operators. But everyone should be able to use them. Otherwise, it’s almost useless. And whatever we are confused about systems with a range of 3-5 km
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov April 27 2013 21: 42
                        0
                        An hour a week is not enough. Each? Is that "Fagot" - on the BMP-2, it can be removed and used as a portable one.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars April 27 2013 21: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        An hour a week is not enough. Each?

                        Even a lot, a day of proctic studies, and once every six months an hour-two for repetition.
                        Each.
      2. Timeout
        Timeout April 27 2013 12: 26
        0
        Quote: Spade
        The future is precisely for "fire and forget". Second-generation missiles can only be used where it is safe to do so.

        A good PTRK operator is an expensive piece of goods that takes a long time to prepare. You can not make it disposable.

        And what kind of GOS on this ATGM needs to be put in order to be able to at least be carried by 2 fighters, and also ensure accuracy of hit even 0.5? As far as domestic data on tests of both ground ATGMs and helicopters say, active Arena defense systems and even the morally obsolete Drozd reduce all these tricks with homing to full zero. And if our brave military will finally understand that 1 tank is more expensive than one rocket, then Western developers will have to come up with mixed-guided anti-tank systems. Just do not refer to Western sources on the use of anti-tank systems, we were not there and could not see their use, and we do not even know the exact performance characteristics. There was a video on YouTube like Apache firing several rockets on a tank protected by our Drozd, as a result, not one hit.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 12: 34
          +1
          Quote: Timeout
          There was a video on YouTube like Apache firing several rockets on a tank protected by our Drozd, as a result, not one hit.

          And where is the movie? wink
          1. Timeout
            Timeout April 27 2013 12: 50
            +1
            I was writing. The video lasting less than a minute stayed on the resource for only 3 days. After that there was a scandal about the transfer of secret technologies of Ukraine. Although Drozd is still a Soviet development, and Ukrainians based on it developed their Barrier. A copy walks somewhere on the Internet, if desired, can be found.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 00
          +1
          Dear, modern anti-tank rockets like Lockheed Martin's SKEM have a speed of about 2750 m / s. Compare this figure with those of modern BOPS. And keep in mind that these missiles maintain this speed throughout their 8 km trajectory.

          What "Thrush", what "Arena"? Some KAZ hit sub-caliber ones, but with great difficulty. And these missiles have a speed of at least 1000 m / s higher.
          1. Timeout
            Timeout April 27 2013 13: 19
            +2
            You can talk about hypersonic missiles as much as you like, just don’t forget about the handling on the marching section and the range of fire at the tanks. I hope you don’t need to remind about the Flurry, it’s easier for pilots to ask how they fly in super sound. If these problems were resolved then such weapons would disperse like hot cakes across the armies, since there are no problems making a hypersonic missile at the moment. In the meantime, the Arena calmly hits shells up to 700 m / s, and again progress does not stand still where 700 there are 7000 ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 34
              +1
              Here is pure arithmetic. 5 km - 2 seconds. How far will the tank traveling at a speed of 30 km / h be? 16 meters? Even with the flank movement of the target, this does not present any particular problems for the guidance system.

              Why don't they go to the armies like hot cakes? Because they are relatively expensive and at the moment are redundant - Israel is the only country with tanks equipped with KAZ in the army.
              1. Timeout
                Timeout April 27 2013 13: 41
                +1
                Arithmetic - arithmetic, and how much should the rudders of the rocket deviate so that it adjusts its course and what will be the radius of this turn, as well as how quickly the steering mechanism will work and how to compensate for the inertia during this time? This is pure physics. It was not in vain that I reminded you of the Flurry, it is a supersonic rocket torpedo; they could not control it.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 14: 06
                  0
                  It was not in vain that I reminded you of the Flurry, it is a supersonic rocket torpedo; they could not control it.

                  As far as I remember, they were already able to.
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout April 27 2013 15: 57
                    0
                    For this, it was necessary to increase the launch range, so that the torpedo could make a maneuver of guidance on the target. And this is not a Flurry.
                2. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 27 2013 14: 20
                  0
                  And you yourself calculate how scanty the angular movement will be. Rectangular triangle with legs of 5000 and 16 m. "Blow in a thousand", if you are familiar with the divisions of the protractor, trigonometric functions, if you need angular minutes and seconds.

                  Flurry is a very unfortunate example. Because it is fundamentally impossible to control there, any rudders will immediately bring the torpedo out of the cavitation mode. Well, here is a purely air environment.
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout April 27 2013 14: 55
                    +1
                    Yes, no one canceled the thousandths, just count to which degree the rudders should deviate, and in which section of the trajectory? In doing so, consider the pressure and wind on the battlefield. Do you see the faculty of ground artillery graduating? Not so simple. Go to a site such as TsAGI and there is a lot written about management problems in hypersound. About Flurry, this example is quite illustrative, in a flying rocket with hypersound, motion physics is like in a medium of high density.

                    PS In Squall, they also tried to use jet rudders ...

                    Excerpt from Jane:

                    The main components of SKEM should be: a body made of composite material, a solid rocket engine, control system, a warhead with an armor-piercing core, and stabilizers that open after firing. The ATGM control system is supposed to be performed using a laser beam or a radio channel in the millimeter wavelength range. It will include: an inertial unit made on a microelectromechanical base; laser receiver; steering wheels or a block of pulsed rocket mini-engines to correct the trajectory.
                    Well, the stabilizers should be so rigidly fixed, the deviation at this speed even by a tenth of a degree ... Count yourself.
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov April 27 2013 19: 33
                      0
                      Dear, the whole ficus picus is that SKEM has already been created, tested, and is normally managed.
      3. svp67
        svp67 April 28 2013 09: 29
        0
        Quote: Spade
        A good PTRK operator is an expensive piece of goods that takes a long time to prepare. You can not make it disposable.

        The successes of the Egyptian army in 1973 are connected precisely with the fact that it was possible to quickly prepare a large number of ATGM operators from almost illiterate peasants ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 28 2013 09: 44
          0
          Too lazy to look on the Internet, it seems that only one of the 20 missiles hit the target?
          You can’t even imagine how difficult it is to manage a first-generation ATGM.
          1. svp67
            svp67 April 28 2013 10: 25
            0
            Quote: Spade
            You can’t even imagine how difficult it is to manage a first-generation ATGM.
            And I don’t need to explain, this is the experience I have ... And I also saw "virtuosos" who knew how to "drive" three pieces of "Babies", with a dispersion circle of 1 meter ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov April 28 2013 14: 55
              0
              Dear, already in the last decades of the USSR, the only ATGM capable of firing in manual mode was the "Competition" And then it was a backup version, used in the event of a control device illumination, when the equipment "did not see" the rocket headlight because of the sun or countermeasures ...

              How old are you if you find "Baby"?
  • Kukota
    Kukota April 27 2013 11: 11
    +1
    I want to thank the site for interesting articles. I used to be your reader, now, thanks to the voice engine, I am your regular listener.
  • Wedmak
    Wedmak April 27 2013 11: 14
    0
    Rastopshin, as always, wants everything Soviet / Russian, and the amers, according to him, get hurt!
  • andron352
    andron352 April 27 2013 12: 15
    +3
    There is no alternative to a tank on the battlefield yet. Infantry that should be like in the first world on foot on machine guns. Even before World War II, many "experts" believed that the tank had no future. Anti-tank guns and mines will sweep the tank off the battlefield. as everyone knows. Tanks will continue to develop, they may become unmanned vehicles with remote control and elements of artificial intelligence. The fact that some Europeans are getting rid of tanks is hoping to sit out in the bosom of the Americans.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 12: 19
      0
      Quote: andron352
      The fact that some Europeans are getting rid of tanks is hoping to sit out in the bosom of the Americans.

      And then why did the Americans stop the production of tanks and close the plant?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 27 2013 12: 22
        +5
        We have reached the limit of Abrams' modernization capabilities. Work on new platforms is being carried out.
        1. Timeout
          Timeout April 27 2013 12: 29
          -2
          Quote: Spade
          We have reached the limit of Abrams' modernization capabilities. Work on new platforms is being carried out.


          Do you personally participate?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 01
            0
            No, I can read.
      2. andron352
        andron352 April 27 2013 12: 24
        +2
        Consider the number of tanks available sufficient. Continue to upgrade previously released to the level of the latter. Also not a cheap pleasure!
      3. 755962
        755962 April 27 2013 12: 28
        +1
        We switched to UAVs ... The budget does not allow ... Alternative weapons (although this concept is extensible) and your option?
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 13: 11
          0
          Look at the video above, UAV, helicopter, TOW.
      4. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 27 2013 12: 42
        0
        Quote: Professor
        And then why did the Americans stop the production of tanks and close the plant?

        It seems that they stopped production until 2017 and the plant was not closed.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 13: 13
          +1
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          It seems to have stopped production until 2017 and the plant was not closed

          Closed, this topic was discussed 100 times. The workers are gradually fired, and those drops that are being completed go straight to the reserve.
      5. bask
        bask April 27 2013 12: 43
        0
        Quote: Professor
        And then why did the Americans stop the production of tanks and close the plant?

        All thanks to RPG-7, RPG-29, and ATGM, Cornet, large losses in Iraq.
        It was considered that further production and repair is not economically viable.
        1. Kars
          Kars April 27 2013 14: 28
          +2
          Quote: bask
          It was considered that further production and repair is not economically viable.

          It is strange why the plant was closed? They make and remake the tank for export.
          And out of 8000 cash abrams in Iraq, a maximum of a hundred went to waste. Yes, and repairs didn’t last long.
          1. Kars
            Kars April 27 2013 19: 04
            0
            So for fun, what else can Cornet encounter
            1. bask
              bask April 27 2013 22: 27
              0
              Quote: Kars
              So for fun, what else can Cornet encounter

              The main tank is the M60 Patton, or rather the M60A1.
              1. Kars
                Kars April 27 2013 22: 30
                0
                Quote: Kars
                So for fun, what else can Cornet encounter

                Quote: bask
                Main tank

                actually it was not a question

                http://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/219982.html
      6. bask
        bask April 27 2013 16: 34
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        And then why did the Americans stop the production of tanks and close the plant?

        Pure lodge, pan prof .... Saudis, buys 69 MBT ,, Abrams ,,
        General Dynamics received a contract worth 132,7 million $$$ for the manufacture of 69 units, MBT M1A2,, Abrams ,,. Work continues on upgrading the M1A1 and M1A2 to the Saydi M1A2S option for Saudi Arabia.
        M1A2S has higher combat effectiveness and improved performance characteristics.
        Production of the M1A2S will be organized in Lima, Ohio, 2014, plan to complete the contract ((delivery of tanks, in full)).
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 21: 15
          -1
          Pure lodge, pan prof ....

          What are you saying? Does it mean lying in congress? Oh well...
          1. bask
            bask April 27 2013 22: 55
            0
            Quote: Professor
            What are you saying? In the congress lie

            They lie pan.prof ..., everyone lies.
            BTR-T ,, Namer, which, as you said, is not released. An example production plan for Namer in Lima is 15 buildings in 2013 and then the volume is 60 cars / year in 2014-2019. From here- http://www.benning.army. mil / armor / content / pdf / IDR 10 Sept 2012.
            News from the Israeli site. What they write about ,, Carnet ,,
            "" "First encountered IDF missiles in combat during the Second Lebanese War, when it was used by the terrorist organization Hezbollah. The missile was used frequently and damaged many IDF Merkava tanks. There are two models of the 9M133-1 missile equipped with a HEAT tandem warhead (high-explosive combat) and 9M133F-1, equipped with a thermobaric combat (its explosion forms a shock wave that lasts longer). "" [media = http: //www.idf.il/1283-9957-en/Dover.aspx]
            1. Professor
              Professor April 28 2013 07: 55
              -1
              http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/content/pdf/IDR-битая ссылка.
              It turns out that the congressmen are lying, then I will not spread the links to the congress. laughing

              News from the Israeli site. What they write about ,, Carnet ,,

              what is the actual news?
              1. bask
                bask April 28 2013 08: 05
                0
                Quote: Professor
                congressmen lie, then links to the congress will not be spread to you

                This is YOU in the congress of communication laughing , I use what they write from the network. And there they lie with ...... Where to go to poor Chuvash, everywhere there is one scam. bully
                Quote: Professor
                what is the actual news?

                information for consideration from, a soldier who saw in combat conditions ,, work ,, ATGM ,, Cornet ,, and all. hi
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 28 2013 08: 27
                  -1
                  This is YOU in the congress of communication

                  Unfortunately, I don’t have any connections in the congress, but I regularly visit the site of this institution. There are a lot of interesting reports published.

                  PS
                  I see you were not impressed with the Japanese tank for 12 million dollars, I confess too. For such money, this tank will never see a real battle.
              2. bask
                bask April 28 2013 11: 17
                0
                Here is another, for one not beaten, two beaten ((russ..narod..pogovora ..))
                Quote: Professor
                broken link

                American military assistance is provided, most of it 75% for the purchase of weapons produced by the United States. General Dynamics Land receives funding for the production of BTR-T ,, Namer, from the US military aid fund. And for the 13th year aid has already been allocated. General Purpose, Namera, unified with Merkava chassis 4. At the rate of production of BTR-A, Namemer 60- units per year
                , this is not a tank made in Israel. Israel wants not only to preserve but also to increase production of, brands, output - Nndo to open another plant, but there is no money for it. Capacities are not enough in Israel however yes . But amers as always helped.
                [media = http: //www.jpost.com/Israel/General-Dynamics-to-develop-Namer-APC-for-]
                [media = http: //www.defenseindustrydaily.com/namer-israeli-leopard-coming-to-the-u
                sa-06620]
      7. svp67
        svp67 April 28 2013 10: 29
        0
        Quote: Professor
        And then why did the Americans stop the production of tanks and close the plant?
        To solve their problems, enough of what they have is enough, and no one is threatening the US territory itself. And besides, the ability of the United States to establish gross production seems to be in no doubt to anyone ... What is more interesting here is whether they conduct RBIs to create new tanks?
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 10: 42
          -1
          Funding for new developments is published by them (eats, but not over secret) and tanks do not pass through them. They could of course disguise it as "Electromagnetic Catapult", but for some reason I doubt it.
      8. andron352
        andron352 April 29 2013 15: 35
        0
        http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/29/abrams/
        And this is how to understand?
  • Professor
    Professor April 27 2013 12: 24
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Work on new platforms is carried out

    Enlighten what new platforms are they working on?
    1. andron352
      andron352 April 27 2013 12: 28
      +1
      I don’t think that what is being done in design bureaus and laboratories is too advertised.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 04
      +1
      Too lazy to look. I watched the network repeatedly. At least machines developed under the FCS program
      1. bask
        bask April 27 2013 13: 10
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Too lazy to look. I watched the network repeatedly. At least machines developed under the FCS program

        Who will reveal all their secrets. By FCS.
        "" "FOURTH GENERATION TANKS ABROAD MAIN battle tanks (MBT) in modern conditions are the main strike means of ground forces on the battlefield. Recently, in leading foreign countries, work has intensified on the creation of promising fourth generation MBT that meet high tactical and technical requirements ( TTT) .According to the Western press, such tanks are currently being developed in the USA (FCS - Future Combat System - a promising combat system), Germany (NGP - Neue Gepanzerte Platforme - a new armored platform) and Great Britain (MODIFIER-Mobile Direct Fire Equipment Requirement - system requirements for direct fire on the move) ""
        "" ACTIVE-TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE PROSPECTIVE MAIN BATTLE TANKS OF THE USA, FRG AND GREAT BRITAIN Characteristics of the USA FRG Great Britain M1A2SEP "Abrames" FCS NGP MODIFIER 1. Combat weight, t 62,5 40-57 50 45-50 2 Crew, people 3 2 3 + 2 2 2. Length with gun forward, mm 3 9830 8128. Length along the body, mm 4 7920 8128. Overall width, mm 5 3660 3429. Height along the roof of the tower, mm 6 2440 2360. Clearance, mm 7 432- 102v4 3. Type of main armament Smoothbore gun XM 8 - 291 mm 120-120 GSP or EMF, or stage, or rocket 140 GSP or ETO140 EMF 1. Technical rate of fire, rds./m 9-8 12. Ammunition, rds. 10 42 at 42 120-35 40. Type of loading Automatic Automatic Automatic Automatic 11. Auxiliary armament Machine gun 12 / 1 Laser cannon 7.62. Additional armament Anti-aircraft machine gun 13 / 1 12,7. Integrated information control system "

        1. cyclist
          cyclist April 27 2013 15: 52
          +1
          laughing nostalgia when I was little I had a tank encyclopedia, there on the last page the same miracle was painted with a square gun
          1. bask
            bask April 27 2013 16: 56
            +2
            Quote: cyclist
            the miracle was painted with a square gun

            The square gun is my young friend, I need it for infrared camouflage. The barrel of the gun, the tank.
            And this is only one type of camouflage, tank, from anti-tank systems, guided homing ammunition, and so on.
            CV90 ((120))
            1. cyclist
              cyclist April 27 2013 17: 39
              +1
              ah! understand! but what is inside you don’t know Sensei! smile inside the barrel or here the shape matters !!
            2. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 21: 19
              +1
              The square gun is my young friend, I need it - for infrared masking

              Here it is the Nobel Prize in Physics. It turns out thermal radiation depends on the shape of the object, circular cross section and square. Now, for a square hot kettle, you can safely grab your hand, nothing will happen, because it is square. laughing
      2. Professor
        Professor April 27 2013 13: 14
        0
        Too lazy to look.

        good
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 27 2013 13: 21
          +1
          You yourself know that work is underway, including in your country. Why are these small injections?
          1. Professor
            Professor April 27 2013 14: 09
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            You yourself know that work is underway, including in your country. Why are these small injections?

            As far as I know, they are not being conducted, and they are not financed in the USA, it is not in vain that the Congress was so tense over the closure of the plant in Lima.
            1. andron352
              andron352 April 27 2013 14: 27
              0
              Maybe they reduced the production of new tanks. But neither Americans nor Israel are reducing the number of tanks in service. In Europe, after the collapse of the USSR, they considered the existing tanks redundant.
              1. Professor
                Professor April 27 2013 14: 35
                -1
                Maybe they reduced the production of new tanks. But neither Americans nor Israel are reducing the number of tanks in service.

                Again for the money money ... Do you spread the numbers or dig yourself?
                1. andron352
                  andron352 April 27 2013 14: 46
                  +1
                  You can lay out. You are all trying to prove that the days of the tanks are numbered. But how to break through the defense of the same Hesbola or Hamas or other not too developed armies. You won’t get enough for every machine gun or machine gun of a high-precision rocket. As the experience of world wars and Iraq has shown, artillery training and air strikes cannot be completely suppressed. Yes, tanks will suffer losses, but without tanks there will be much more losses.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor April 27 2013 14: 51
                    0
                    You can lay out.

                    Start here. The tank is dead, long live the tank

                    You won’t get enough for every machine gun or machine gun of a high-precision rocket.

                    The good old RPGs and artillery have not yet been abolished.

                    As the experience of world wars and Iraq has shown, artillery training and air strikes cannot be completely suppressed.

                    The infantry will do its job.
                    1. andron352
                      andron352 April 27 2013 15: 23
                      +1
                      Yeah, as in the first world corpses. This has already passed.
  • andron352
    andron352 April 27 2013 12: 36
    +1
    It is clear that ATGM is cheaper than a tank. But also a bullet is cheaper than a soldier, missiles are cheaper than an airplane, anti-ship missiles are cheaper than a ship, ICBMs are cheaper than a whole city. War has always been a confrontation between means of attack and defense and a terribly costly affair. So let's drink for world peace !!!
  • loki565
    loki565 April 27 2013 13: 10
    +3
    A pretty informative story about the latest Russian tanks device, armoring, weapons: T90MS, BMPT, ARMATA





  • denkastro
    denkastro April 27 2013 13: 24
    +4
    Professor, have you ever participated in tank battles? I think not. Tank is the evolutionary development of artillery. Not a single army of the world, when conducting ground operations, can do without tanks (in the foreseeable future). Although they will be constantly changing.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 14: 12
      -1
      I fought and the tanks were there. That is why I undertake to assert that tanks, like battleships, go down in history. In the same Lebanese war, tanks were replaced by Spikes and TOW.
      Is Tank so capable?
      1. Timeout
        Timeout April 27 2013 14: 25
        +2
        Everything is relative. You know very well that all high-tech weapons have the property of running out and then the troops smoothly switch to weapons of the previous generation, which have not yet expired. So drones, Spikes will gradually evaporate along with their operators. Your combat experience is the experience of war with a poorly armed and trained army (in other words, the Papuans). Whether it is a technically developed country with a well-trained army, Israel simply has no chance.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 27 2013 14: 33
          -3
          Whether it is a technically developed country with a well-trained army, Israel simply has no chance.

          This song has been sung to Israel for 60 years. In 1967, 1973 and 1982, the Arabs were armed, and tens of thousands of Soviet "advisers" did not leave Israel any chance at all.

          You know very well that all high-tech weapons have the property of running out and then the troops smoothly switch to weapons of the previous generation, which have not yet expired.

          Are you from personal experience? The problem with precision weapons is that targets end earlier than these weapons.

          Your combat experience is the experience of war with a poorly armed and trained army (in other words, the Papuans).

          good Good Papuans with Cornets and thermal imagers.
          1. Timeout
            Timeout April 27 2013 15: 17
            +2
            Agree how they sang in your Tsakhal from the Cornets-E! The operators are not yet prepared. And the song is about tens of thousands of advisers who threw themselves under tanks with bundles of grenades ... It's just that the story that you and I know is different. During my studies, I personally had to watch a film shot by eyewitnesses how the "stupid Arabs" themselves with "Babies" burned your tanks at once. And I heard firsthand about your invincible army, the places where the units with military advisers from the USSR kept the defense, your troops simply bypassed for several tens of kilometers. These are the different stories. And Israel exists as long as someone wants it. And when this someone's Wishlist runs out, Israel can be disassembled for parts. This is already a reality. For me, this just shouldn't be.
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 15: 29
              +2
              Quote: Timeout
              You must admit how you sang from Kornetov-E in Tsakhal!

              They didn’t sing at all. Faced with a new real threat. Scratched and began to correct errors. Including new defense systems, equipment, ammunition and training. Everything is like everyone else.
              1. Timeout
                Timeout April 27 2013 15: 37
                +3
                Honestly, to hell with these wars. You know for every tricky jo ... there is x .. with a screw. No matter how much you upgrade and defend, someone has already developed a countermeasure and so on.
            2. Professor
              Professor April 27 2013 15: 30
              -1
              You must admit how you sang from Kornetov-E in Tsakhal!

              Share a link to this song.

              And the song is about tens of thousands of advisers who rushed under tanks with bundles of grenades ...

              They didn’t rush under the tanks, but there were tens of thousands. There were thousands even in Lebanon.

              During my studies, I personally had to watch a film shot by eyewitnesses how the "stupid Arabs" themselves with "Babies" burned your tanks at once.

              In 1973, the losses of armored vehicles from "tourists" were significant. Did it help the Arabs?

              And I heard firsthand about your invincible army, those places where the units with the military advisers from the USSR held the defense, your troops simply walked a few tens of kilometers.

              This is also true, they went around and surrounded almost the whole army and still knew to cross the Suez Canal and took the city of Suez in Africa and reached the 101st km to Cairo. Here is a story. Do you have another? Did the Arabs take Tel Aviv? wink

              And Israel exists while someone wants it.

              And here you are right, this is what the people of Israel want, for which no foreign soldier has ever fought, even as "advisers".

              And when the Wishlist ends for someone, Israel can be taken apart for parts. This is already a reality. For me, this just should not be.

              Judging by housing prices, the Israelites’s Wishlist did not end, so I’m forced to upset you, you won’t wait.
              1. Timeout
                Timeout April 27 2013 15: 51
                +4
                I personally know about Israel its external problems nevermind. At the expense of the Cornets there was a note from your government, saying that Russia is selling ATGMs to Palestine. What does the Israelites want to do with it? Israel has a big brother to the United States, or for example, China wants to turn the Sahara into an oasis, as an option, that it will be some 8 million if it suddenly seems to him that they are in the way. Sudan is nearby and there the division is housed in 40000 thousand people. God forbid they catch on the next bombardment. At the expense of foreign citizens, and who are you? Native to Israel? In the process, circumcision was done during emigration. Well, at the expense of advisers, there were not thousands of them. Where have you read such tales? Yes, there were pilots in Egypt, but already 3 squadrons. Plus Square-necked Ponchos. Well, yes, I forgot, engineer-sapper unit. Well and PTRKshniki.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 27 2013 16: 01
                  -3
                  At the expense of the Cornets there was a note from your government, saying that Russia is selling ATGMs to Palestine.

                  There was a note from the government (not Tsakhal) regarding the delivery of anti-tank systems to the Shiite terrorist group Hezbollah (not to the Palestinians).

                  Israel has a big brother to the USA

                  For your information, the United States did not always support Israel; until 1967, for example, weapons were mostly French.

                  At the expense of foreign citizens, and who are you? Native to Israel?

                  The returnees are Israeli citizens and most have no other citizenship.

                  Well, at the expense of advisers, there were not thousands of them. Where have you read such tales?

                  Firstly, on this site there was recently an article about Soviet advisers in Lebanon of which there were thousands, and secondly, take an interest in the society of internationalist veterans.

                  Yes, there were pilots in Egypt, but already 3 squadrons. Plus Square-necked Ponchos. Well, yes, I forgot, engineer-sapper unit. Well and PTRKshniki.

                  Total thousands and thousands, and also in Syria.
                  More than 30 thousand of our soldiers and officers secretly fought in the Middle East
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout 1 May 2013 13: 02
                    +1
                    There was a note from the government (not Tsakhal) regarding the delivery of anti-tank systems to the Shiite terrorist group Hezbollah (not to the Palestinians).


                    Well, yes, a note would be of a government but from Tsahal. Say no? How is it that a non-killed carrot was hit by some sort of trimmed one I don’t want Cornet-E, but what if the real obsolete Cornet?

                    For your information, the United States did not always support Israel; until 1967, for example, weapons were mostly French.


                    Yes of course. Valmet's license is a gift from MAS. Or nuclear weapons just blew the wind, since the Virgin Mary?

                    Firstly, on this site there was recently an article about Soviet advisers in Lebanon of which there were thousands, and secondly, take an interest in the society of internationalist veterans.


                    Dear, my BP teacher is a real participant in these events and should I doubt after that? Behind him is still hanging vulture when reading burn. And he is not a member of this society! A real officer who was not sent, but he volunteered. In these cardboard offices you can look for more veterans of the Suvorov campaign or the Boer War. Your right is proud of the six-day war, but your Tsakhal still cares about the stars in the eyes, for example, to the defenders of the Brest Fortress. Or the same 9th company, as well as the Pskov paratroopers. The Israeli army is an inert mass that is not capable of real feat! You can throw beads in front of people who are used to scooping information from zombies. And I have enough of what I personally went through, and the betrayal of the commanders and the assassination of the army in its very foundations ...

                    The returnees are Israeli citizens and most have no other citizenship.


                    Well, of course, on the Torah I prayed and you are a Jewish Jew. A normal move for a country that cannot call on itself differently. And where are the Jews of the whole world unite? As far as information on the world says, they are already fleeing from you. Even some Paraguay requires full legalization.

                    Total thousands and thousands, and also in Syria.
                    More than 30 thousand of our soldiers and officers secretly fought in the Middle East


                    I believe only what I saw, or who you can’t not believe! So the allegations of heroic adventures of the new Munchausen from the so-called societies about wars which officially did not exist did not exist for me. No body, no business. A real officer will not advertise about the mess in which he participated of his own free will. Especially when Israeli troops were hammering in the tail and mane. Yes, the worst thing in the USSR was that they went on business trips not only by order, but also of their own accord, as well as by flight. Fact, and not attached! Especially these words:

                    . According to Western data, in Egypt between 1967 and 1973 served up to 50 thousand Soviet troops


                    You can communicate with Mr. Popov personally from exile, and the movement is called "Protect Your Home", I personally believe a man who dropped more than one "Phantom" with his unit. And not that bullshit that is written in the article ... And you will not hear specific dates and numbers from him. This man keeps everything to himself! So your fountain has bloomed for a long time !!!
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 1 May 2013 14: 37
                      -1
                      Do you start each sentence "of course"? wink
                      I repeat, there was a note Government (not Tsahala) regarding the supply of Shiite anti-tank systems terrorist Hezbollah group (not Palestinians).

                      until 1967, for example, weapons were predominantly French. Yes of course.

                      Yes of course. Learn the materiel and look for example the composition of the Air Force of that time. There were no American tanks and aircraft. About nuclear weapons is just bullshit. Who built the reactor in Dimona? Americans? wink

                      Dear my teacher

                      Blah, blah, blah ... Have you seen the tens of thousands of advisers? Only in Egypt in 1972 there were 20 thousand of them. How many American advisers were in Israel? Zero.

                      Well, of course, on the Torah I prayed and you are a Jewish Jew.

                      The fact remains. For Israel, only Israeli citizens fought and fight (ppm does not count), whose homes and families are in Israel. For Arabs, family advisers fought and whose houses remained in their native country. You know what they call people who enter into armed conflict not from ideological, national, political considerations (and not belonging to any ideological group interested in the outcome of the conflict) and not in accordance with military duty, but for their own selfish gain (that is, for money or other material benefits)?

                      You can personally communicate with Mr. Popov from the link

                      So you call the hero of the war who "hollowed the Israeli troops in the tail and mane" a liar?

                      You better explain to me how tens of thousands of advisers allowed such a colossal defeat of the Egyptian and Syrian armies? How did it happen that "they hammered the Israeli troops in the tail and mane", and they went to a cannon shot to Damascus and the 101st km to Cairo? Where did our Soviet people's money go? request
        2. Aaron Zawi
          Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 14: 40
          0
          Quote: Timeout
          . Your combat experience is the experience of war with a poorly armed and trained army (in other words, the Papuans). Whether it is a technically developed country with a well-trained army, Israel simply has no chance.

          Not true . The Syrian army passed the war 67 and 73gg. Armed with Soviet weapons that were quite modern at that time, she suffered a severe defeat in Lebanon in the 1982 year, although she fought fiercely and even had some successes, for example, near Sultan-Yakub or on the Beirut-Damascus highway.
          1. andron352
            andron352 April 27 2013 15: 37
            0
            To the Point! drinks
      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 14: 55
        -1
        Tank and Ahzarit in Lebanon were indispensable. Tankers and heavy equipment of sappers generally pulled on themselves 50% of land operations. (IMHO)
        1. andron352
          andron352 April 27 2013 15: 28
          +3
          Done agree. Try to convince the Professor that infantry without tank support are corpses
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 15: 32
            +1
            Quote: andron352
            Done agree. Try to convince the Professor that infantry without tank support are corpses

            Not everywhere and not always, but when confronted with a well-trained and armed enemy, even without BT, the absence of tanks from their own infantry can dramatically increase losses. (IMHO)
            1. andron352
              andron352 April 27 2013 15: 41
              +1
              To the very point !!!
          2. Professor
            Professor April 27 2013 15: 34
            -2
            Quote: andron352
            Try to convince the Professor that infantry without tank support are corpses

            Tanks without the support of infantry corpses.

            PS
            Which regiment you yourself served in?
            1. bask
              bask April 27 2013 17: 18
              0
              [quote = professor] Tanks without infantry support corpses [/ quote]
              Beh support infantry, heavy engineering, BTR-T, then ,, end ,,
              The soldiers darted during the assault, constantly covered by BTR-T ,, Ahzarit ,,
              [quote = professor] [quote = andron352] Try to convince the professor that infantry without tank support are corpses [/ quote]
              Tanks without the support of infantry corpses.
              [media = http: //alternathistory.org.ua/files/170112_CV90_03.jpg]
            2. bask
              bask April 27 2013 17: 23
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              Tanks without the support of infantry corpses.

              Tanks without the support of heavy engineering equipment and infantry ....
              Soldiers dodged during actions in the city are always covered with armor BTR-T ,, Ahzarit ,,
              1. Professor
                Professor April 27 2013 21: 21
                -3
                Beret and did not notice? wink And the rest of the foot soldiers who are legs, legs?
            3. berg
              berg April 27 2013 19: 30
              +1
              hard.....
        2. bask
          bask April 27 2013 16: 45
          +2
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Tank and Ahzarit in Lebanon were indispensable. Tankers and heavy equipment of sappers generally pulled 50%

          Here is the right answer. When storming a city, not only and not how much infantry covers tanks.
          A close interaction is the training of infantry + BTR-T, covering the infantry from sniper fire. + Heavy equipment of sappers.
          This is what should be written in the combat charter, conducting combat in urban conditions.
          I would only add here, an STORM assault gun with a caliber of not less than 152 mm, with anti-ballistic reservations. And an elevation angle of the gun is not a melee of 60 degrees.
          Quote: andron352
          then infantry without tank support - corpses

          Absolutely. good
          1. Professor
            Professor April 27 2013 21: 22
            -2
            Absolutely.

            And in which regiment did you serve?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov April 27 2013 21: 44
              +2
              In the motorized rifle.
              Infantry without the support of corpses tanks.
      3. Tourist Breakfast
        Tourist Breakfast April 28 2013 11: 29
        +1
        Is Tank so capable?

        It seems to me that in our country, in many cases, they prefer to use high-precision weapons in order to reduce collateral damage when hostilities are taking place in buildings. In the event of a full-scale war, as in 73 (God forbid), you will not be able to fight back with "spikes" alone. There is still room for tanks on the battlefield.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 12: 26
          -3
          Recently, in the Golan, the Syrians have been responding to fire mainly by the Tamuzs, but tank attacks are not only repelled by ATGMs, but also by aviation and artillery.
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus April 27 2013 13: 57
    0
    The end of the article is alarming. It turns out that they will be able to detect and destroy the installation after the very first start. Yes, and knocking a rocket off the path is not difficult. And again we turn to the topic of "sticking out peepers" from enemy vehicles. We will not be able to destroy their network, we can only die as heroes. Without firing a single shot.
  • lobik
    lobik April 27 2013 15: 14
    0
    Judging by what is happening in the Middle East, you should not be smart at the forum, but go to train. Or do you think you have repatriated there in vain. It's time to defend the country created by the great leader of all peoples, Joseph.
  • cyclist
    cyclist April 27 2013 16: 18
    0
    according to the materials of this site at the exhibition it’s like they installed Cornet on the Shell and now it can be a universal complex !! Do you need versatility?
  • andron352
    andron352 April 27 2013 16: 44
    +2
    Professor - Roller has already seen. Common truth: tanks without infantry are a pile of iron, infantry without tanks are many corpses. To win in modern combat requires the interaction of all modern means of combat aircraft, artillery, tanks. infantry, etc. The absence of one of the components will lead to defeat or to large losses, even with a not very strong opponent.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 27 2013 21: 24
      -1
      Quote: andron352
      To win in modern combat requires the interaction of all modern means of combat aircraft, artillery, tanks. infantry, etc.

      Only not tanks, but armored vehicles. Everything else is for sure.
      1. andron352
        andron352 April 28 2013 02: 45
        +2
        So tanks are also armored vehicles. Or armored personnel carriers for defense. So they, too, will be burned by ATGMs, grenade launchers
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 07: 58
          -1
          Maybe not punched only. However, unlike an armored personnel carrier, it’s not worth $ 12 million.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 27 2013 17: 05
    +1
    ATGM, although much cheaper than a tank, is completely unable to solve its tasks. The only question is how much anti-tank weapons can hold the tank’s forehead in a given historical period.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi April 27 2013 17: 33
      0
      Quote: Avenger711
      ATGM, although much cheaper than a tank, is completely unable to solve its tasks. The only question is how much anti-tank weapons can hold the tank’s forehead in a given historical period.

      The forehead can still do a lot. But the roofs of the majority have little to do. Therefore, then the latest ATGM models make a slide before hitting a target.
      1. Professor
        Professor April 27 2013 21: 25
        -3
        Or they hit the roof with an impact core like Bill-2 and TOW.
  • denkastro
    denkastro April 28 2013 21: 14
    0
    Professor, it’s not customary for us to speak with us at war, they say we served in Chechnya, served in Afghanistan, etc. If you took part in hostilities, you must understand what formidable force tanks remain (an example of this merkavs transported to the border during the recent hostilities of your fellow countrymen). Well and of course they need to be applied competently.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2013 21: 33
      -3
      , they say we served in Chechnya, served in Afghanistan, etc.

      I saw those who "served in ..." and saw who fought.

      The time of tank breakthroughs is a thing of the past. Battleships went down in history, in their place came another technique. The same fate awaits the tanks. There is no reason to drive 3-4 fighters into an iron box worth millions of dollars. All that a tank could do without it.
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 28 2013 21: 48
        0
        Quote: Professor
        All that a tank could do without it.


        Good - tell me the technique that is better than the tank for moving through the epicenter of a nuclear explosion ..
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 22: 00
          -2
          No one is going anywhere through the epicenter of a nuclear explosion.
          1. Kaa
            Kaa April 28 2013 22: 56
            +4
            Quote: Professor
            No one goes anywhere through the epicenter of a nuclear explosion

            Time heals everything, including the epicenter. This is still green cadets and even students of military departments of some civilian universities taught. Power, explosion height, wind direction, humidity, temperature, time of day - in the end, we have when, at what speed the convoy of some vehicles can pass, in the OZK, with or without antidotes, or without them,% of possible losses and time combat readiness units. Also me, Newton’s binomial ...
          2. svp67
            svp67 April 29 2013 07: 28
            0
            Quote: Professor
            No one is going anywhere through the epicenter of a nuclear explosion.

            Yes, yes, of course... wassat The fact that now "Punic wars" are being fought by conventional means does not exclude the fact that the threat of the use of nuclear weapons in the world is growing, since the number of countries in the "nuclear circle" is growing ...
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 28 2013 21: 51
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        All that a tank could do without it.

        It depends on what percentage of losses you allow. It is possible without tanks, but there will be more corpses.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 28 2013 22: 05
          -4
          It is possible without tanks, but there will be more corpses.

          Launch ground drones, there will be less loss and cheaper.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 28 2013 22: 14
            +2
            A drone capable of replacing a tank will be much more expensive than a tank. And there will be more losses after normal units will tear them, like an ace warmer.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 28 2013 22: 17
              0
              I’ll write an article about drones, I bet there hi
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 28 2013 22: 21
                0
                Can. And then the branch became very thoughtful.
            2. Kaa
              Kaa April 29 2013 01: 47
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              I’ll write an article about drones, I bet there

              Quote: Spade
              A drone capable of replacing a tank will be much more expensive than a tank
              THEN ALREADY NO DRIVER, BUT "BESTANKISTNIK" is the IDF's dream. The "hamster" sits behind the keyboard - and controls the "Merkava". For the selection of "young virtual tankers" even World of Tanks came up with good
              1. Thunderbolt
                Thunderbolt April 29 2013 01: 59
                +2
                Quote: Kaa
                The "hamster" sits at the keyboard - and controls the "Merkava".
                Moreover, information technology has advanced so far that you can even control a combat vehicle from the Moscow metro. Wi-Fi - steers fellow !!!
                1. Kaa
                  Kaa April 29 2013 02: 18
                  +2
                  Quote: Thunderbolt
                  Moreover, information technology has advanced so far.
                  Two are sitting, from the PMC (a private military computer company), one steers an Israeli tank battalion, the other, for example, the Syrian one. At the end of the day, they receive checks and the winning side drinks beer. Romance... laughing
                  1. Thunderbolt
                    Thunderbolt April 29 2013 02: 28
                    +2
                    Quote: Kaa
                    At the end of the day
                    the evil type from al-Qaeda cuts off the light, steals checks in the dark and goes for a beer. crying
                    1. Kaa
                      Kaa April 29 2013 03: 00
                      +1
                      Quote: Thunderbolt
                      the evil type from al Qaeda cuts off the light, steals checks in the dark and goes for a beer
                      ... and with a sense of accomplishment has fun with tolerant European girls drinks
                      1. cat Baiyun
                        cat Baiyun 7 May 2013 18: 39
                        0
                        Thank! Laughed! laughing
          2. svp67
            svp67 April 29 2013 07: 30
            0
            Quote: Professor
            Launch ground drones, there will be less loss and cheaper.

            Modern UAVs are very vulnerable, and what to do when they end? Whom and on what will you send?
  • denkastro
    denkastro April 28 2013 22: 30
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    I saw those who "served in ..." and saw who fought.
    Is it such an incomprehensible Jewish humor, or what? I saw it. I saw it somewhere, on TV or on the net. In my memory, I’ve popped up on this site for the first time, and again I saw it. Such as you always consider yourself the most intelligent, only benefit from you 0. I never thought I served you with you before, and if you had seen us from the other side, you wouldn’t have written here. And even Israel, in a direct conflict with us, will exist for 5 minutes. So we should not boast about your military merits, we- then just seen enough of the barn heroes.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 28 2013 22: 55
      -3
      Quote: denkastro
      I never think I served you with you before, and if you had seen us from the other side, you would not have written here.

      Drink some cold water and calm down, do not worry at night looking, you are our virtual hero. Departments also served, only they didn’t have to fight. If they fought, they would know the difference. Good night. hi
  • denkastro
    denkastro April 28 2013 23: 12
    +2
    I served in the SA and then the RA (along with the term and military school) for 27 years. I quit my health major. My specialty is strictly military and does not involve work in warehouses and headquarters. When you carry heresy, think suddenly a professional military is talking to you. You I suppose I’ve read shkolota, and yes, you forgot a couple of degrees in all sciences. And good night to you. hi
    1. Professor
      Professor April 29 2013 07: 30
      -1
      You probably read shkolota

      Of course shkolota and, moreover, illiterate.
      Now I understand why you are focusing on "serving" (serving the Motherland has always been an honor, without sluggishness), and not on "fought." Not everyone had to fight, and it's for the best. hi
  • satellite
    satellite April 29 2013 00: 17
    +1
    Do not argue with clever professors, it affects your health very badly. Yes, and do not forget to remind them that they are rather weak (FACT), this belittles their cunning, bold impulses to rise among the gentiles.
  • Yves762
    Yves762 April 29 2013 08: 45
    0
    "Opening" this article, I was hoping to see the facts of the use of anti-tank systems on, at least, the exact imitations of the armor of the Abrams M1A1 \ M1A2, and even M1A2 TUSK. And so .... request .... "waste of ink" sad (once again).
  • Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 April 29 2013 13: 59
    0
    Interesting article. To author +
  • Veteran
    Veteran April 29 2013 19: 33
    +6
    Quote: Professor
    As far as I know, they are not being conducted, and they are not financed in the USA, it is not in vain that the Congress was so tense over the closure of the plant in Lima.

    Regarding the financial decisions of Congress and the desire for procurement of Amer. Army in the future tanks of the new version:
    The US Congress over the past two years has allocated about half a billion dollars for the purchase of improved versions of Abrams main battle tanks, although the Army command announced an excess of such equipment in the troops and the absence of the need for new purchases. According to ArmyTimes, in the next few years, the US Congress intends to allocate another 436 million dollars for the purchase of new Abrams tanks. At the same time, the US Army still refuses to buy new cars.
    Currently, the US Army is armed with 2,4 thousands of Abrams tanks, a third of which are the new M1A2SEPv2. The average age of cars is about three years. The cost of production and purchase of one new tank is currently 7,5 million dollars. US Army Command Stops Abrams Procurement In 2012; the last tanks under already signed contracts should be delivered in 2014.
    The US Army plans to resume buying Abrams no earlier than 2017, when a new version of this combat vehicle will be created. It is curious that the allocation of funds for the purchase of new tanks, which the US Army refuses, is carried out against the background of a reduction in military spending (the Pentagon is obliged to reduce its spending by 2013 billion by the end of the fiscal year 42).
    The need for the purchase of tanks in the US Congress is explained by the preservation of the production of such military equipment and the preservation of jobs. Abrams is a state-owned enterprise in Lima, Ohio, managed by General Dynamics. Earlier it was reported that the suspension of tank production will cost 600-800 million dollars, and the cost of maintaining the plant can reach three billion dollars.
    According to various estimates, to maintain a plant in Lima without job cuts, it is necessary that it produce up to 70 Abrams tanks per year. Thus, before the 2017 year of the US Army, it will be necessary to purchase at least 280 new tanks. “If we were given a choice, we would spend this money on other projects,” ─ said Army Commander General Ray Odierno.
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/04/29/abrams/
    1. Professor
      Professor April 29 2013 21: 26
      -2
      I’m talking about this, these armies are not needed by the army, and the military-industrial complex lobby in Congress will forcefully allocate money for them. Their (congress) will, they would have funded and armored trains. request
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 1 May 2013 22: 01
    +2
    for a mobile anti-tank system, weight is more important than firing range. the main range of fire on tanks all one is not more than 1000-1500 meters.
  • smershspy
    smershspy 2 May 2013 17: 29
    +2
    The article is good! Thank! Interesting, but it's all so well known that it’s boring! I hope that the author will write a more complete article!
  • gremlin1977
    gremlin1977 8 May 2013 20: 21
    +1
    I read your dregs, and did not understand. like people and smart ones and they even threw off some kind of signs, but I didn’t find any sense !!!!!!! THE MODERN TANKS ARE CREATED AND CREATED FOR MASS USE IN CONDITIONS OF NUCLEAR CONFLICT AND CONFRONTATION SUCH AS A MACHINE. USE ELEZORIZEORIZEZORIZEZORIJEZIORIEZIORIETSIORIETSIORIEZIORIEZIORIETSIORIETSIORIJEZORIEZIORIJEZORIEZIORIJEZIORIJEZIORIZEZIORZIETZIERZIZERZIENTZIORIZIОZhentechera authoritus. AND WHERE IS CORNETS WHEN UNDER THE CONDITIONS OF A NUCLEAR WAR, THE INFANTER HAS NO CHANCE TO APPLY ANYONE WITH THREE OR FOUR TENS OF ATTACKING TANKS WHEN MAKING CAREFULLY Curled BE ALIVE. ??????????
  • gremlin1977
    gremlin1977 8 May 2013 20: 46
    +1
    Read did not understand anything. Modern tanks, because as far as I know, were created for operations in a nuclear conflict and to counter tank armies of a potential enemy, and even if I remember correctly for breaking the echeloned defense line, the coverage of enemy groups and deep raids on the enemy rear. Using tanks in all of the above conflicts and operations, it’s only private, and in most cases, outright stupidity. And what does it have to do with it then? It turns out that a lone surviving infantryman after a nuclear explosion, a massive shelling of the front line with cassette ammunition of a volumetric explosion and bombing from 100 to 1500 kg. In a smoke covering the battlefield, constant explosions of shells, he pulls out a tripod weighing 19 kilograms and calmly sets it up, hooks a tube weighing under twenty a kilogram of randomly lying nearby and calmly takes aim at 30-40 tanks crawling across the field (steppe, undergrowth or whatever) and even gets there. Question? This will somehow affect the situation on the battlefield.
  • Sterlya
    Sterlya 3 November 2013 23: 25
    0
    Quote: Professor
    Like an adult, but believe in fairy tales. They can still print money for themselves, but this is not necessary now: real growth of the American economy in the first quarter of this year amounted to 2.5%.

    it's all linden. they can also present the solution in vitro as an OM. and print with tens of billions of dollars for special operations and no one will know about it. the entire world economy is built on sand. It’s interesting, just lawlessness will defeat the economy. or economy mayhem
    1. hwrts1122
      hwrts1122 6 November 2013 23: 14
      +1
      Yes, do not pay attention to the professor. He patriotically defends his native equipment and his overseas allies by all means, means and methods. Well done, worthy of respect))) he just, like everyone else, if he does not know, then guesses the true state of things ... from that and argues with everyone so fiercely)
  • Senior manager
    Senior manager 15 February 2017 13: 12
    +1
    Retriever.
    I apologize, first read what it means "several orders of magnitude." The second point - the tank and the BMP have different tasks and therefore it is not correct to compare them. And the third point - the conquest of the territory still takes place on tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, these are complementary systems. Military theorists have not yet rejected tanks.
  • Alex1977RUS
    Alex1977RUS 4 January 2018 20: 28
    0
    Quote: gremlin1977
    Read did not understand anything. Modern tanks, because as far as I know, were created for operations in a nuclear conflict and to counter tank armies of a potential enemy, and even if I remember correctly for breaking the echeloned defense line, the coverage of enemy groups and deep raids on the enemy rear. Using tanks in all of the above conflicts and operations, it’s only private, and in most cases, outright stupidity. And what does it have to do with it then? It turns out that a lone surviving infantryman after a nuclear explosion, a massive shelling of the front line with cassette ammunition of a volumetric explosion and bombing from 100 to 1500 kg. In a smoke covering the battlefield, constant explosions of shells, he pulls out a tripod weighing 19 kilograms and calmly sets it up, hooks a tube weighing under twenty a kilogram of randomly lying nearby and calmly takes aim at 30-40 tanks crawling across the field (steppe, undergrowth or whatever) and even gets there. Question? This will somehow affect the situation on the battlefield.

    Exactly. Connoisseurs gathered ... Thirty pages of amateurs talk about what they do not understand at all. And we should start with the basics. For example with Fighting tanks. Biryukov G.F., Melnikov G.V. Military Publishing House, 1967. Read, think, re-read again, and turning on the brain finally, stop carrying all nonsense. This is especially true for guests from foreign countries.
  • yousha1980
    yousha1980 8 January 2018 18: 33
    0
    Retriever,
    All the advantages of the BMP will cease to exist at once when meeting with the tank under otherwise equal conditions.