Military Review

Will not fly soon

39
A promising strategic bomber will have a very difficult fate.


Perspective aviation the long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), designed to replace the long-range Tu-22M3 and strategic Tu-160 and Tu-95MS, was the victim of departmental ambitions and backroom fighting. Not having time to make his first flight, he changed his “parents”, moving from the Design Bureau Tupolev to the department of the United Aircraft Corporation.

First about the plans to create the newest bomber reported in 2008-m, Colonel-General Alexander Zelin, then commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force. True, he did not specify which design bureau would lead the project. The following year, the management of the Tupolev design bureau at the MAKS air show announced the conclusion of a contract with the Ministry of Defense for research work on a project called PAK DA. At the beginning of last year, it became known that the new aircraft would be a subsonic "flying wing", something like the American Spirit B-2 bomber.

Fatherlessness

In February of this year, Director of the Aviation Industry Department of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, Andrei Boginsky, said that the Defense Ministry finally signed a contract with the Tupolev Design Bureau to develop a promising long-range aviation complex. According to the director, the financing of the project was begun in 2013 and the bomber was included in the State Weapon Program for the 2016 – 2025 years.

Will not fly soonBut in the design bureau itself, the newspaper “Military-Industrial Courier” explained that the money arrived only at the end of last year. Due to funding delays, in the spring of 2013, developers were not able to order the design of ejection seats, rescue equipment and equipment for the crew for the Zvezda scientific and production enterprise. The bureau’s staff does not quite understand the situation with the Tupolev itself, since, according to some sources, the design bureau is subject to a quick re-formation: it will leave Moscow by summer and will move to Tatarstan. There, on the basis of the Kazan Aviation Production Association named after S. P. Gorbunov, the basis of a new joint design bureau, the engineering and technology center, will be deployed to which Tupolev design bureau will flow. In connection with administrative shaking up, the fate of a strategic bomber, on which the Air Force has high hopes, is now lost in the fog.

A lot of controversy among specialists caused the decision to create not a supersonic, but a subsonic machine according to the “flying wing” scheme. The designers explained this with such considerations. Since PAK DA should replace not only the strategic Tu-160 and Tu-95, but also the long-range Tu-22М3, that is, almost all of the air strike power of Russia, the new complex needs at least minimally correspond to the flight characteristics, including the Tu-22.

“It is easier for a subsonic airplane to provide a longer range and a patrol time. It is no secret that the Tu-95 is held in the air much longer than the supersonic Tu-160. The fleet of refueling aircraft of the Air Force is not large enough, and Russia does not have overseas bases. Therefore, not speed, but the flight range and the mass of aircraft being carried, are of paramount importance, ”Anton Lavrov, an independent military expert, one of the authors of the book The New Army of Russia, told Military Military Industrial Courier.

He noted that now the flight range of aircraft-based cruise missiles reaches three to five thousand kilometers, and strategic bombers no longer need to break through the enemy’s air defense system in order to hit targets. At the same time, the idea to make PAK DA more speedy was supported by Defense Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. In the spring of last year, he said that the plane may even be hypersonic. His statements were not inspired by specialists.

“Work on the project began as early as 1995, when the Air Force ordered a number of research projects to the military institute, TsAGI and Tupolev Design Bureau. On the part of the Air Force Design Bureau, three versions of the vehicle were proposed, including one developed by the creator of the Tu-160, Valentin Bliznyuk. He proposed a multi-mode aircraft of relatively low mass, but at the same time maintaining the strategic flight range. However, TsAGI supported the subsonic option, since according to the calculations of this institute, this option seemed to be the most optimal, ”the engineer-aircraft manufacturer, a participant in the works, told the VPC weekly.

According to him, in 2003, the Tupolev Design Bureau completed research work and was ready to defend an advance project, but because of the cessation of funding by the Ministry of Defense, the development of PAK DA was interrupted. It was continued only in 2008 year after the resumption of funding and the holding of a corresponding competition, which won Tupolev's design bureau.

“As a result, the defense took place in 2012, and a year later a contract was signed to conduct development work. But for some reason, not from the Tupolev Design Bureau, which received a positive opinion on the advance project, but from the UAC, ”the aircraft engineer told the Military Industrial Courier. Now the design bureau, which has just begun to prepare the draft design of the PAK DA, has actually been removed from the work.

“At the end of last year, about nine billion rubles were allocated to a promising aviation complex, but only one billion reached the design bureau. The remaining money remained in the jab. In January, the UAC leadership at the meeting announced the creation of a new department within the corporation structure headed by the first deputy general director of Tupolev, Sergei Bogatikov, who will conduct all the work. UAC management decided to involve in the design of the PAK DA aircraft manufacturers from the corporation "Irkut". “Tupolev” will only perform ancillary work, transferring all the documentation to the new department, ”a CB representative familiar with the situation shared with the MIC on condition of anonymity.

The source also explained that all cooperation on the new machine will be organized only within the framework of enterprises incorporated in the United Aircraft Building Corporation, with minimal involvement of third-party co-executives.

“Of course, the decision to take the development of the PAK DA from Tupolev and give it to the UAC cooperative, Irkut, is unprecedented for the aircraft industry. But the leadership of the UAC can be understood. Now the “Irkutsk people” are working on the Yak-242 aircraft (aka MS-21), which should fly on the “black” wing, ”a high-ranking representative of the aviation industry informed“ VPK ”. “Black” is the slang name of a wing adopted from aircraft manufacturers, built from composite carbon-fiber plastic elements, for which special fibers from coal sands can be used.

“So far, neither we nor foreign aircraft manufacturers have fully composite wings. In places of maximum load, duralumin constructions are used anyway, ”the newspaper's interlocutor noted. According to him, the first Yak-242 will still be with a wing of conventional alloys. With a composite, a promising passenger airliner, according to the plans of aircraft manufacturers, will take off no earlier than 2018.

“In the chosen PAK YA design, it is necessary to apply the“ black ”wing. Therefore, it will be easy for Irkut to simultaneously work on two machines, conducting the necessary research and gaining experience, ”he added. This decision is not agreed at the Tupolev Design Bureau. Since 50, the company has been a leading developer and creator of heavy and strategic bombers. The Tupolev monopoly was only briefly moved by the Vladimir Myasishchev 3M aircraft, and even the famous Sukhoi T-4 Sukhoi did not become a production machine.

“A unique team of“ strengths ”,“ aerodynamics ”and other specialists with experience in designing heavy bombers has developed in the design bureau. There is nothing like this in other KBs. To teach specialists to create an aviation complex in a couple of years will not work. If the Tupolev design bureau needs at least 8 – 10 years, then another design bureau is twice as long, if it works out at all, ”the aircraft engineer told his opinion.

According to the interlocutor, a ten-year failure in the financing of work can adversely affect the state of long-range aviation. It is important to have time to fill up the park before the cancellation of rapidly aging cars. Therefore, now we need not technically a breakthrough machine, but a simple and easy-to-manufacture aircraft.

“Unlike composite materials, aluminum alloys are well developed and studied. For example, condensate is often formed in honeycomb panels, which, when it freezes, leads to the destruction of the structure. Therefore, for a cheap and easy-to-manufacture bomber, the choice of materials with preservation of primary use in the construction of aluminum alloys will obviously be more justified, ”said a high-ranking source in the aviation industry.

Fathers Commanders

But the troubles of the design bureau do not end there. According to several interlocutors familiar with the situation, 26 of March should have a meeting of shareholders of Tupolev OJSC, where a decision will be made to merge with the Kazan Aviation Production Association named after S. P. Gorbunov into a single scientific and technical structure. It is assumed that the engineering and technology center created from last year at KAPO will become the heart of the new organization, and the design bureau experts, having left the complex of buildings located on the Moscow Embankment named after Academician Tupolev, will move to Kazan.

“Even if we remain in place, new labor contracts will be signed with us. Many of my colleagues and, I confess, I myself fear that we will be left without work, ”an officer of the design bureau said to the Military Industrial Courier.

While the company management has not announced official plans for the reorganization of "Tupolev". Aviation experts consider the association of Tupolev and KAPO to be the right and timely step.

“According to the Tu-204 and Tu-214 Tupolev lineup, they did not create a production aircraft that the airlines liked. The last project, which could be implemented from scratch, was Tu-334, but it was never put into the “series”, independent aviation expert Sergei Starikov told VPK.

According to him, Red Wings airline, becoming the first customer of eight Tu-214, often faced problems in their operation.

“At Red Wings, when commissioning liners of this type, there were many complaints about the quality of the aircraft. Unfortunately, they were solved with difficulty. Kazan plant had no right to make changes to the design documentation. It was necessary to coordinate all the improvements with Tupolev, and then transfer to KAPO. The slightest question turned into a lengthy process of coordination, and every day a simple aircraft brought the airline losses, ”Starikov explained.

According to the expert, this situation has developed because of the rupture of ties between the design bureau and the plant.

“For example, the companies“ Sukhoi Civil Aircraft ”and“ Superjet ”do not face such problems, as they promptly correct the deficiencies identified by the airlines and users,” concluded Starikov.

Over the past five years, this is not the first merger of airlines and design offices into a single aviation-technical complex. In 2010, OAO Taganrog Aviation Scientific-Technical Complex named after G.M. Beriev was merged with OAO Taganrog Aviation (formerly Taganrog Aviation Plant named after G.M. Dimitrov). The process was helped by the fact that both enterprises are located in the same city.

“The Soviet aviation industry experience shows that one design bureau can work with several aircraft factories. And at the plant can be built at the same time planes of different companies. In the same Kazan, in the 60 – 80-s, supersonic Tu-22 and Tu-22М of all modifications were built in one workshop, and passenger long-haul IL-62 were assembled nearby. "Ilyushin" worked with the Kazan aircraft factory, and with the Tashkent, where they collected transport IL-76 ", - reminded the newspaper" Military-Industrial Courier "at one of the enterprises.

One can argue for a long time who is to blame for the situation that has developed with the development of a promising long-range aviation complex. The United Aircraft Corporation has its own reasons and reasons, and they seem at first glance reasonable and logical. On the other hand, the unique design bureau - the only developer of strategic and long-range bombers - was left without its “child” and was actually forced out of the project. Waiting for "Tupolev" and painful procedure of association. Even with the mildest variant of the development of events, the new scientific and technical complex, which united the Design Bureau of Tupolev and the Kazan Aviation Production Association named after S. P. Gorbunov, will not immediately be able to get into the work. One can only hope that the departmental games and the struggle for funding will not disrupt the PAK DA program, which is crucial for Russia's security.
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39 comments
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  1. saag
    saag 5 March 2014 08: 43
    +11
    it will not fly, it will become irrelevant, a bomber will need to be able to go out into the near space of commercials to a height of 80 km
    1. FID
      FID 5 March 2014 10: 22
      +2
      The higher the plane flies, the more vulnerable it is for the same killer satellites ...
      1. aviator_IAS
        aviator_IAS 5 March 2014 11: 36
        +7
        Quote: SSI
        The higher the plane flies, the more vulnerable it is for the same killer satellites ...

        Killer companions are expensive, ineffective and inflexible. Against satellites in known orbits, they are still suitable, but for maneuvering targets they are powerless. Moreover, it will be necessary to have a large number of these satellites in low orbits, which means that their duration will be short. In general, this issue rests on huge costs.
      2. Geisenberg
        Geisenberg 5 March 2014 13: 17
        +4
        Quote: SSI
        The higher the plane flies, the more vulnerable it is for the same killer satellites ...


        It is not clear what kind of satellites are involved. For reference, I inform you that it is forbidden by international treaties to bring weapons into space.
        1. FID
          FID 5 March 2014 14: 09
          +5
          Quote: Geisenberg
          For reference, I inform you that it is forbidden by international treaties to bring weapons into space.

          Thanks for the help!
    2. VAF
      VAF 5 March 2014 12: 16
      +9
      Quote: saag
      , you will need a bomber who knows how to go into near space, commercials to a height of 80 km


      Have you tried to walk the mortal earth and ... stop watching star wars? wink
      Poogayet exclusively ... all the crap like "will be needed ..." evaporates like .. morning fog lol
      1. saag
        saag 5 March 2014 12: 49
        +2
        Well you tell the developers of Ajax
    3. Su24
      Su24 5 March 2014 12: 17
      +4
      Quote: saag
      it will not fly, it will become irrelevant, a bomber will need to be able to go out into the near space of commercials to a height of 80 km


      This is a more distant prospect.

      Only the 3M Vladimir Myasishchev planes were able to move the Tupolev monopoly for a short while, and even the famous supersonic T-4 Sukhoi never became a production car.


      For some reason, they forget all the time that it was not a strategic bomber, but a missile carrier for the Navy. The analogue of the Tu-22M.
    4. Fregate
      Fregate 5 March 2014 12: 52
      +3
      Quote: saag
      it will not fly, it will become irrelevant, a bomber will need to be able to go out into the near space of commercials to a height of 80 km

      Why not 300-400km? laughing In wartime, a bomber, and in peacetime will put payloads into orbit. laughing Universality on the face laughing wassat
      1. saag
        saag 5 March 2014 19: 00
        0
        because all the same, military and civilian avion is not the same thing, civilian and will fly to the height you specified, because the station is spinning there, but the bombers do not need it, extra energy costs
    5. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg 5 March 2014 13: 16
      +1
      Quote: saag
      it will not fly, it will become irrelevant, a bomber will need to be able to go out into the near space of commercials to a height of 80 km


      ... then it’s immediately orbital with a flight altitude of up to 1000 km.
      1. saag
        saag 5 March 2014 19: 00
        0
        Why do you think the stations at this height do not fly now?
  2. Nayhas
    Nayhas 5 March 2014 08: 44
    +14
    At the same time, the idea of ​​making PAK DA more rapid was supported by defense deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin. Last spring, he announced that the plane could even be hypersonic. His statements by experts did not inspire

    STOP. Chezahnya? Why is the look of PAK-DA dictated by anyone but the military? As far as it is known, it is the military that sets the basic requirements for the designed aircraft, range, weight, speed, combat load, etc. Having received this data in the form of TTZ, the designers create the aircraft, and what does the state have to do with it? official? And if instead of Rogozin they put some kind of Zinarog and he says that PAK-DA should be subsonic, will the whole project be redrawn? Uffffffffff ............
    1. VAF
      VAF 5 March 2014 12: 14
      +6
      Quote: Nayhas
      Why is the look of PAK-DA dictated by anyone but the military?


      And you guess wassat+! wink

      1. Yars
        Yars 5 March 2014 20: 35
        +1
        prove what exactly he is?
      2. Nayhas
        Nayhas 5 March 2014 20: 56
        +1
        Quote: vaf
        And you guess wassat +! wink

        The question is not quite the topic. I met somewhere that the Air Force planned to order special-purpose aircraft (such as VKP, etc.) on the basis of the Tu-334. Is there any more detailed data on what was planned to be done? How good is the same Superjet for this? As the Air Force writes, the Tu-214 base does not suit, but now there are no "mass" vehicles except the Superjet, it is far from the massive Il-476, and it will be quite expensive, so is the military interested in it?
  3. dmitrij.blyuz
    dmitrij.blyuz 5 March 2014 08: 44
    +7
    Tek. It began, or rather continues. A concrete cut of the dough and complete incomprehensibility with PAK DA. Nothing has changed. Pogosyan will continue to punch the KLA, and Tupolev, on the sidelines? Maybe SSI tastes of the days to come?
    1. FID
      FID 5 March 2014 10: 28
      +16
      Absolutely right! Transfer to the KLA - this is the cut of state funds! The KLA is handled by the competent authorities (it is unlikely that this will work out, but still ...). Let the designers deal with the planes, not the officials! About Tupolev’s move to Kazan ... And who will go? Mature constructor? It follows that with the Tupolev Design Bureau, when moving, you need to say goodbye!
  4. Diviz
    Diviz 5 March 2014 08: 58
    +4
    No, we must return to the Soviet one - there was a competition 3 companies created the plane: airline, Tupolev and Roskosmos.
    1. The flying wing. 2. Let's say tu144 3. Buran. And then experience it. Then there will be a result and not Chinese copying.
    1. anarky
      anarky 5 March 2014 17: 40
      +1
      Where to get the money?
  5. andrey682006
    andrey682006 5 March 2014 09: 06
    +4
    Quote: Nayhas
    At the same time, the idea of ​​making PAK DA more rapid was supported by defense deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin. Last spring, he announced that the plane could even be hypersonic. His statements by experts did not inspire

    STOP. Chezahnya? Why is the look of PAK-DA dictated by anyone but the military? As far as it is known, it is the military that sets the basic requirements for the designed aircraft, range, weight, speed, combat load, etc. Having received this data in the form of TTZ, the designers create the aircraft, and what does the state have to do with it? official? And if instead of Rogozin they put some kind of Zinarog and he says that PAK-DA should be subsonic, will the whole project be redrawn? Uffffffffff ............

    Your opinion is understandable, but is the military opinion (and requirements) you refer to known?
    What do you need in the Air Force, at what time and at what price? What weapon? What strategy (tactics)? In the end - against whom?
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 5 March 2014 09: 26
      +4
      Quote: andrey682006
      Your opinion is understandable, but is the military opinion (and requirements) you refer to known?
      What do you need in the Air Force, at what time and at what price? What weapon? What strategy (tactics)? In the end - against whom?

      Judging by the fact that there are throwings in appearance, the military either did not indicate exactly what was needed, or Rogozin sculpts a gag.
      1. ben gun
        ben gun 5 March 2014 14: 46
        0
        The assumption (proposal?) That PAK YES could also be hypersonic Rogozin made in the Summer of 13 or even more in the Winter of 13, long before the ToR was signed to carry out design work on PACDA. someone confuses either on purpose or on purpose.
    2. VAF
      VAF 5 March 2014 12: 19
      +9
      Quote: andrey682006
      But do you know the opinion (and requirements) of the military you are referring to?


      Generally, data on TTT and TTZ belong to the category of documents classified as "special importance" bully
  6. 0255
    0255 5 March 2014 09: 41
    +5
    but will PAK YES repeat the fate of the MiG MFI and Yak-141 at such a pace? belay
    1. VAF
      VAF 5 March 2014 12: 28
      +6
      Quote: 0255
      but will PAK YES repeat the fate of the MiG MFI and Yak-141 at such a pace?


      With the "pace" yes, but with this .. "approach" .. almost 100%! +! crying
      1. typhoon7
        typhoon7 5 March 2014 14: 32
        +4
        I agree. One gets the impression that this gentleman has set himself the goal of capturing the entire aviation industry of Mother Russia and is moving towards this goal with the corpses of his colleagues. The lack of competition will still play a role. This will affect the timing, quality and price of the machines clearly. Whatever you say, the Union was very wise in this matter, it stimulated everyone. Therefore, even without access to the high technology of the West, we had excellent cars. Perhaps unfortunately they want to push Tupolev completely into the backyard. Tupolev does not have his own funds to participate in the competition. Poghos simply takes away the work and documentation for himself and assigns the creation of a bomber. He also pushed the MiG away from the creation of the UAV. Appetite comes with eating.
        1. FID
          FID 5 March 2014 15: 02
          +2
          Quote: typhoon7
          One gets the impression that this gentleman set himself the goal of capturing the whole aviation industry of Mother Russia

          Has already taken possession, nothing is done without his "aha". Even the Federal Air Transport Agency plays to his score.
          1. 0255
            0255 5 March 2014 16: 47
            +3
            and so I would like to see a new "carcass" sad
  7. Dart weyder
    Dart weyder 5 March 2014 09: 48
    +4
    as shown - "stealth" technology is a relative concept. certainly not unimportant - but the speed has not yet been canceled ....... in my opinion the car should have supersonic speed .............
  8. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 5 March 2014 10: 59
    +6
    Not having time to make his first flight, he changed his “parents”, moving from the Design Bureau Tupolev to the department of the United Aircraft Corporation
    Quote: dmitrij.blyuz
    Poghosyan will continue to punch the KLA, and Tupolev, on the sidelines

    Ah, supporters, admirers, admirers of Poghosyan’s talent, comment on this news. There is no way to say that PAK YES from Tupolev is outdated like the Tu-334 ...
    And in my opinion it’s time for you to understand that this same Chevalier of the Order of Merit for the Italian Republic (once again I'm interested in any such merits he was awarded this trinket? !!) is playing with one goal. And this gate is his pocket ... No, he certainly shares, and shares not weakly. Otherwise, he would not have stayed in this position for so many years ... And he is ruining the competitors. That is, in fact, ruins the domestic school of aircraft manufacturing. Now it’s Tupolev, but the turn of the MiG with Ilyushin may come. The trend is clear ...
    For such things, do not hang trinkets on the lapel, but put it on the wall. Without the right to appeal a sentence ...
    Quote: Dart Weyder
    as shown - "stealth" technology is a relative concept. certainly not unimportant - but the speed has not been canceled yet ....... in my opinion the car should have supersonic speed

    Perfectly to the point. "Stealth" is a delusional fiction, a fake. Moreover, it is costly and ineffective, because the developers of air defense systems will not sit still either ... Radar stations capable of illuminating these "inconspicuous" toys will appear, and they will appear very soon. And all these "stealth" tricks will go down the drain. For they will "glow" no worse than ordinary airplanes, but they will fly just as badly as a result of lousy aerodynamics ... So let me ask - where and what is the advantage of "stealth"? ..
    1. Blind
      Blind 5 March 2014 12: 11
      -1
      [quote = Chicot 1] [quote]
      Perfectly to the point. "Stealth" is a delusional fiction, a fake. Moreover, it is costly and ineffective, because the developers of air defense systems will not sit still either ... Radar stations capable of illuminating these "inconspicuous" toys will appear, and they will appear very soon. And all these "stealth" tricks will go down the drain. For they will "shine" no worse than ordinary airplanes, but they will fly, as a result of lousy aerodynamics, just as lousy ... So let me ask - where and what is the benefit of "stealth"? .. [/ quote] Yeah .. you are the only one so smart and handsome, standing all in white, and all around alone. Therefore, they continue to produce and develop and produce not only aircraft, but also ships with stealth technologies.
      For reference, the yard is already not the 80th year, and in modern realities there is no longer any need to sacrifice the aerodynamics of a car for the sake of a small RCS - examples F-22, F-35, T-50
      1. VAF
        VAF 5 March 2014 12: 26
        +10
        Quote: Blind
        Yeah .. you're the only one so smart and beautiful, standing all in white, and all alone. Therefore, they continue to manufacture and develop and produce not only aircraft, but also ships with stealth technologies.
        For reference, the yard is already not the 80th year, and in modern realities there is no longer any need to sacrifice the aerodynamics of a car for the sake of a small RCS - examples F-22, F-35, T-50


        Basically, Vasily is right, because :

        1. The plane is not a steamboat. Although according to the documents, both are .. SHIP.

        2. Aerodynamics is, first of all, to take as much as possible and bring as far as possible and preferably .. in a faster manner.

        Comparing Khryapa and Penguin with our T-50-is generally not correct, because. here the question of bombers is considered ... secondly, they even before what characteristics are included in the T-50 .. more .... "plow and plow." thirdly, we do not deal with stealth technologies (as this is a road to nowhere). but we are engaged in measures to reduce the EPR! soldier
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 5 March 2014 12: 32
          +5
          Quote: vaf

          Basically, Vasily is right, because :

          Serge is a Troll, look at all his comments, there are not many of them.
          Hi hi
          1. VAF
            VAF 5 March 2014 12: 40
            +6
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Serge is a Troll, look at all his comments, there are not many of them.


            Sanya, hi drinks Already looked lol Some of his "statements" on the MiG-31 ... were enough ... to draw conclusions soldier
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 5 March 2014 12: 47
              +6
              Quote: vaf
              Some of his "statements" on MiG-31 ... were enough ..

              That's something like this, there is now a specialist wassat
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 5 March 2014 12: 28
        +3
        Quote: Blind
        Perfectly to the point. "Stealth" is a delusional fiction, a fake.

        Ha.vot is trillatin laughing He is in another topic ....


        Blind RU Today, 12:00 | Air Force will receive upgraded MiG-31 and new model aircraft
        WHAT FOR?? whom will he intercept at such speeds and heights? against maneuvering warheads of modern ICBMs, it is ineffective. The USA already has no supersonic Lancers. Blackbirds have also been decommissioned. B2 Spirit? Yeah, right now .. for those who are in the tank, at the frequencies of both the current and the planned modernized MIG-31 radar (6 GHz), stealth aircraft are NOT visible at all !! Those. both the MIG-31 and the MIG-31BM will never see either B2, F-22 or F-35. Once again the question is, who will he intercept?

        wassat wassat wassat
  9. Forest
    Forest 5 March 2014 11: 00
    +2
    In fact, TK is issued based on the application strategy, but apparently Rogozin has a different opinion)
  10. TAMERLAN 7
    TAMERLAN 7 5 March 2014 12: 14
    +5
    Pretty weird statements. As far as I heard, the concept was chosen because of the huge technological risk when creating such a large hypersonic machine (with missiles of a problem) and huge funds for research and development. The concept is quite logical: the subsonic invisible bomber, without cover, secretly goes to the point of attack (reaction time is lost for the enemy). Long-range hypersonic missiles are launched (depending on the distance and speed of the missiles, the reaction time is extremely limited). If the bomber gets closer, the risk is higher for him, but the reaction time to missiles is shorter. Shoots from a farther distance - less risk for the aircraft, a little longer reaction time. In any case, a bunch of stealth bomber and hypersonic missiles is not so bad. It is scary that he was transferred ..... ????

    Here is the PAK YES model in the pipe.
















    Another prototype.
    1. bigELDAK
      bigELDAK 5 March 2014 13: 05
      +1
      the lower photo is the purge model in TsAGI from Myasishchev Design Bureau back in the 90s. The upper photo is my opinion of the experience for foreigners (we are working with them) on the design of a passenger plane, BWB seems to be, this model is already last 2013.
      1. TAMERLAN 7
        TAMERLAN 7 5 March 2014 14: 27
        +1
        Passenger BWB looked like this:

        And the top photo was positioned as PAK YES, however, everything is possible in the information mess! Thanks for the correction! hi
        I looked around here. This seems to be a project of an integrated passenger aircraft with elements of the IS-1 "flying wing" scheme. Ours is:
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 5 March 2014 13: 42
      +2
      Quote: TAMERLAN 7
      Another prototype.

      In the bottom photo, the model that a man pulls on a trolley was purged at TsAGI back in the 60s, professionals will correct me if I'm wrong.
      1. TAMERLAN 7
        TAMERLAN 7 5 March 2014 14: 39
        +2
        In the 60s? No, I knew that it wasn’t PAK YES, I thought it was our answer to the V-2 and the purge of the 90s, I even read it somewhere, but so ..... It’s unlikely that it was purged in the 60s !
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 5 March 2014 19: 55
          +1
          Quote: TAMERLAN 7
          In the 60s? No, I knew that it wasn’t PAK YES, I thought it was our answer to the V-2 and the purge of the 90s, I even read it somewhere, but so ..... It’s unlikely that it was purged in the 60s !

          Most likely this is the Tu-202 long-range anti-submarine and indeed it was developed in the 80s. But somewhere I came across when studying the material of roofing felts on Tu-22 roofing felts on T-4, and in TsAGI there was a model of a flying wing, but now I can not find it unfortunately.
  11. Blind
    Blind 5 March 2014 12: 29
    -11%
    Quote: vaf
    thirdly, we do not engage in stealth technologies (because this is the way to nowhere). and we are engaged in measures to reduce the EPR! soldier


    you are just a walking anecdote. "we are not digging holes! we are digging them!"
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 5 March 2014 12: 38
      +10
      Quote: Blind
      you are just a walking joke.

      Yes, calm down my seropogonous corporal, everything will be fine. Especially with you. I wish you happiness, success, good luck and great European love tongue
    2. dmitrij.blyuz
      dmitrij.blyuz 5 March 2014 17: 31
      +2
      Oh! laughing A wonderful miracle, fish fish! wassat I’ll be surprised to finish it, to summarize something. And then I won’t get to laugh! crying
  12. Lone gunman
    Lone gunman 5 March 2014 13: 11
    +2
    I insist that a subsonic bomber with hyperspeed missiles is needed, and to spread rot on a person for an excellent opinion ... "the soldier will not offend the boy" ?!
    1. dmitrij.blyuz
      dmitrij.blyuz 5 March 2014 18: 28
      0
      "baby"
      1. Lone gunman
        Lone gunman 6 March 2014 10: 23
        0
        I agree, but it would be strange if the children wrote comments here ...
  13. vbatov
    vbatov 5 March 2014 14: 20
    +3
    "independent aviation expert Sergey Starikov.

    According to him, Red Wings airline, having become the first customer of eight Tu-214s "

    A strange expert. Since when has Red Wings been flying Tu-214s, they have flown Ulyanovsk Tu-204s all their lives, and have nothing to do with KAPO. I think his other messages should not be taken seriously.
    1. FID
      FID 5 March 2014 16: 00
      +4
      Quote: vbatov
      Strange some expert

      Very true remark, very true. On 214s "Dalavia" (Khabarovsk) flew, "Transaero" flies and the presidential SLO (including special aircraft) flies. Yes, the military also fly (scouts, OH). Nowadays, Kazan (maybe) is going to build SMKU ...
  14. valokordin
    valokordin 5 March 2014 16: 01
    +3
    This Poghosyan will cut the project down again. Money drags itself. The government does not have solid leadership and competent people. Korolev said that the moon is solid, and that’s all, but we have no one to say. Forward to Ukraine.
    1. anarky
      anarky 5 March 2014 17: 41
      +1
      Umm again?
  15. dmitrij.blyuz
    dmitrij.blyuz 5 March 2014 17: 18
    +3
    Quote: SSI
    It follows that with the Tupolev Design Bureau, when moving, you need to say goodbye!

    Here ... am They are ruining everything and everything. There is a total destruction of the best design bureaus of the country’s Aviation. Even the brand, even the USSR, they dare to raise a hand. That's damn. Unpleasant reality.
  16. dmitrij.blyuz
    dmitrij.blyuz 5 March 2014 18: 26
    0
    Quote: anarky
    Where to get the money?

    There is such a thing-Bank called! Instructions for pulling out the cash from there is the same. "Robbery ..." I remember from adolescence! Cool cartoon! laughing hi
    1. anarky
      anarky 5 March 2014 18: 40
      0
      Yeah, or how do we get around El Paso in "A Few Dollars More"?
  17. Starina_hank
    Starina_hank 5 March 2014 19: 14
    0
    However, it looks like the sunset of Russian aviation.
  18. polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch 5 March 2014 23: 51
    +2
    You can't give Poghosyan the development of PAK YES! Manturov will ruin and cut everything together with his spine, two pair of boots, the fifth column, for 10 years all the loggers have been crying for them, they will not wait for at least 20 years of commercials to "visit." Who does not know, it is they with their "Superjet" has been ruining domestic developments for many years.
  19. damodan
    damodan 6 March 2014 15: 20
    -1
    Why react so negatively :) The agreement has been signed, the deadlines have been set, development has been laid out for anyone with a prospect of 30 years ahead :)
  20. kirpich
    kirpich 7 March 2014 01: 05
    +1
    So maybe Comrade Stalin was right when he put this "serpentarium" in the sharashka? How many efficient products came out of there at once.
  21. Shield
    Shield 11 March 2014 23: 06
    0
    Perhaps twenty years have passed since I found out that Tupolev was going to build such a plane. Even had a little bit to participate in the discussion of the project). Time flies fast! Like PAK YES.)))
  22. Sergei75
    Sergei75 17 March 2014 22: 57
    0
    They used to build what they needed, now what’s cheaper ...
  23. Tishka
    Tishka 24 October 2014 02: 00
    +1
    Clear. that everyone wants to get money, and where they go, is also clear. stretched in pockets! It’s just not entirely clear, Tupolev’s dictate their conditions that PAK YES should be sound, it’s more convenient for them, you can modify 160, and without investing a lot of talent to create a car, Rogozin wants a hyper sound, and it seems that the Ministry of Defense supports his idea . Only all this squabble will turn into one, the KB will fall apart, the money will go in an unclear direction, and they won’t create anything concrete! Missiles began to fly further, this is understandable, therefore, the aircraft does not need to enter the airspace, where it is susceptible to missile defense. But there are also fighter jets that just might not let him in even in the reach of missiles, for example, aircraft carriers. So, perhaps it’s worth going back to the times when there were achievements in creating tropospheric bombers, not every missile defense system will reach it, and it’s difficult for fighters to get there. especially if the speed is high. Also, on the basis of these bombers, it is possible to create a platform for launching satellites into orbit by adding an acceleration block, to combine, so to speak, pleasant with useful. Ideally, of course, you need to entrust the development to several design bureaus, and on the basis of the proposed one, choose the best option, and not put all your eggs in one basket, and it’s not clear what if the bottom falls off! Myasishchev had ideas and Sukhoi, but it was all choked by the fact that the Tupolev design bureau is out of competition, they say that it has been doing this for a long time. And we need a completely new idea to get out of the impasse, to look at all this, from a fundamentally different perspective! Of course, it is expensive, but you always need to choose the best, because PAK YES is created not for one year, but for decades, and should be able to improve, and not try to blind again, from a car with a striped flag, its new idea!