- According to the US foreign policy doctrine of the times of the USSR, the very existence of the Soviet Union was incompatible with American security. In your opinion, has the attitude of the United States towards Russia changed after an official statement of the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR?
- By 1991, judging by the IMF documents and a number of documents within the United States, the Americans conducted a deep study of our economy and the moral and political state and mood of the Soviet people. The US Congress reviewed these materials and as a result, the 102 Act of 1992 was adopted under the offensive for Russia title “Law on Freedom for Russia and the Newly Independent States”. At the same time, in the autumn of 1992, the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States reported to the President and Congress an assessment of the state of the United States Armed Forces, where, in the first paragraph of 11, the chapter “Special Operations” states that, despite the fact that Russian leaders had undertaken to reform its Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies, Russia will still remain our main adversary, demanding the closest attention.
“But one can say that these were only the first post-Soviet years, and the United States, perhaps, were still under the impression of the recent militaristic, from their point of view, past of our country?” Simply did not hurry to trust us.
- Well, in principle, we can say that then there was still a hotter time, "dashing 1990-e", but ... Several years ago, the Norwegian Institute for Strategic Studies published a paper written by a former Soviet officer who probably once "left "to the West (I did not specifically investigate this circumstance) called" Can the territory of the former superpower become a battlefield. " In it, based on his own experience and on the basis of the analysis of many documents, he gives a conclusion about the resistance in the territory of Russia that the military units of the NATO countries can meet: in which place they will be met with stones, in which place they will shoot, and in which they will be welcomed.
As far as we were able to understand, further observing the fate of this work, she underwent a large circle of research in the NATO countries and was very seriously accepted in the USA. They, of course, never admit it, but it is. So I am fully confident that since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US attitude towards us has not changed. Today's US attention to Russia is the attention to the opponent that was not defeated finally in 1991. And the US is guided by this principle in the implementation of its foreign policy.
- If the United States still does not trust us and, to put it mildly, does not contribute to our development, then why were they not afraid of the revival of post-war Germany, their real enemy on the battlefield?
- Americans were not afraid of the revival of post-war Germany, as they are not afraid of its gain now, because in 1949, before the Federal Republic of Germany was finally formed, which the Bundeswehr was allowed to have, Germany was tied hand and foot with agreements with the United States and other NATO countries. The former head of the military counterintelligence of the Bundeswehr, General Kamosa, published a book entitled The Secret Games of the Secret Services, which directly states that, according to the post-war German-American agreements, every new German chancellor who comes to rule the country must immediately come to the United States and sign under the document called "Chancellor Act". The deadline for the "Chancellor Act" - 2099 year.
I will quote you an excerpt from the Secret Games of the Secret Services: "21 May 1949 of the Year Federal Intelligence published under the heading" Top Secret "a secret government agreement that outlined the basic principles of the winners' approaches to the sovereignty of the Federal Republic before 2099 ..." Will by this time German German? Will the Bundeswehr be able to fight as he fought in World War II by this time? What is the final destination of the Chancellor Act? These are the questions that arise when reading this book.
By the way, General Kamosa was very cautious, so he did not dare to publish the Secret Games of Secret Services in Germany, but was forced to publish a book in Austria. There was a slight noise. Our correspondents who have read The Secret Games of the Secret Services in Austria have published a small note: does General Kamos give himself the report which bomb did he give? However, they wondered: what did our leaders sign in 1991 year? A political columnist for Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Faenko six months ago, in one of her articles, laid out her “bomb” ... He writes that in the United States many very prominent political figures and major businessmen are unhappy that Russia does not adhere to the unwritten agreements that were signed by her leaders.
- In your opinion, did the USSR ever even allow a theoretical opportunity to become a full-fledged partner of the United States? Well, at least at the peak of Soviet-American cooperation in the Second World War.
- No, because the blame for the fact that the Germans attacked the USSR in the 1941 year, including the United States. For some reason they don’t think about it now, but then in 1940, an adviser to English Prime Minister Churchill - Montgomery Hyde, who helped William Donovan (one of the leaders of the American special services - author) create the Department of Strategic Services, handed him USA to Roosevelt wrote Churchill's letter where he wrote: since the US is not at war with Germany, could you please get Hitler to leave the Balkans alone and speed up measures regarding Russia. Many years have passed since that time and it seems to many in the West that everyone has forgotten about this letter. But you can forget only when you do not want to remember something.
Today, no one also recalls that in fact the preparation for World War II began in 1929 with the meeting of the American President Herbert Hoover with the most prominent US entrepreneurs from the Russell Center; they have such a secret society. It said to Hoover: “The crisis is approaching, trying to avoid the difficult situation that the United States may find itself can only be done by changing the balance of forces in the world. To do this, help Russia to finally get rid of the devastation - the consequences of the civil war, and help Germany vise of the Versailles Treaty. " “But money is needed for this,” said Hoover, “a few billion. And why do we need it, what will happen next?” "And then it is necessary to push Russia and Germany with their foreheads so that, after recovering from the crisis, the US will be only one on one with the remaining of these opponents."
Such money was allocated as a result. And the very same American concerns that helped Russia rebuild their economy — built factories, participated in the creation of the Dnieper Power Plant — restored and equipped Germany. It’s not for nothing that Prescott Bush’s grandfather of US President Bush, who helped the Germans in 1930, was deprived of the right to manage his property right after the start of the war, on the assumption that the United States is at war with Germany at the moment. All this is documented, including in the five volumes of the American economist and historian Anthony Sutton. And what happened after the war is known: the Americans throughout the 20 century carried out very serious, thoughtful work on the destruction of their one strong enemy in the USSR.
By the way, the principle of selective memory in relation to stories demonstrated today, for example, Svanidze in his program "The Court of Time", where he regularly deliberately keeps silent about important facts, well, and if the interlocutor reminds him of them, he quickly cuts him off. Watch this program, of course, was disgusting, but interesting, because it shows the depth of the work of Americans in the implementation of the operation of influence on the opposite side. In America, a very interesting system of influence on large human arrays has been developed in order to convince them to accept the American point of view on one or another occasion.
- From 1979 to 1991, you headed the Office of Illegal Intelligence of the KGB of the USSR, so you probably know best of all what, besides the purely humanitarian imposition of the American view on the past and the present of a particular country, are the objectives of the "influence system on large human arrays"?
- For example, in order to gain any diplomatic advantage in relations with a particular state. That is why the US political line on the destruction of the internal calm content of a country is deeply thought out, and not local and spontaneous, as it sometimes seems. For this purpose, in many countries, layers of people are being created who spread the ideas that they dictate in the West in order to facilitate their mastery of a particular territory. After all, even Sun Tzu said that it is better to conquer the country without fighting. The United States, having begun to seriously study us in the 1917 year, never again left out of sight, were engaged not only in analytical or scientific work, but also conducted very serious intelligence activities.
By the way, an interesting fact. After the explosion of the twin towers in New York, the Americans did a great job of studying the experience of the struggle of Soviet power against Basmachis. By the way, the development of terrorism in the countries of the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and on our territory is not a random phenomenon. If you carefully look at who attended special schools in the United States and Great Britain, it becomes clear that it was there that the Mujahids and Wahhabis were trained, say, for subversive activities in Ufa or in the North Caucasus.
And what happened in Tatarstan near Zelenodolsk was apparently prepared by the British, I mean unrest among Muslims, provoked by Wahhabis, who, fortunately, the Tatars themselves quickly suppressed; the people who organized these unrest, after all, they went to England for training, and there were a lot of such people. Or take the difficulties that Bashkiria is currently experiencing. They also have Western roots. And there is nothing surprising here, because the Americans created a special institution - the United University for the training of leaders of antiterrorist organizations, under whose auspices cadres are trained to organize unrest in various regions of the world, and not just for the real fight against terror.
- Did there exist in reality the “Kryuchkov list” in which the then head of the KGB lists the agents of influence of the West in domestic power structures?
- Of course. And now, probably, someone has a similar list. As for the "Kryuchkov list" ... Such a list was actually transferred to Kryuchkov. He went with him to Gorbachev. Gorbachev sent him to Yakovlev (at that time the secretary of the CPSU Central Committee on ideology - auth.) ...
-Which was on that list ...
-... (Laughs) ... After the change of power, the Deputy Prosecutor General Lyseiko molested me with questions about the “Kryuchkov list”: “Did you receive such documents?”. I answer: "I do not remember." He again: "And who was on this list?". "I do not remember". "Why not remember?". I say: "You see, there is a decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR and the Central Committee of the mid 1930-ies, which prohibits law enforcement agencies from accumulating materials on the leadership of the state." Lyseiko opens his own folder: "Yes, there is such an order!". I continue: "These materials were transmitted to Kryuchkov, reported at the top, returned to us and destroyed." "And what, you still do not remember anything?". "I do not remember". He does not lag behind: "And whose materials were these?" I answer: "You wanted me to become a traitor twice? It won't work. I don't remember anything ..."
In 1992, an article by attorney Knyazev was published in Soviet Russia or Pravda, which explicitly stated that Drozdov did not confirm the data on the Kryuchkov list, Shebarshin (one of the last leaders of the First Main Directorate of the KGB of the USSR - author) did not confirm ... Well, we did not need to confirm it. What for?
In the next month and a half there will be a book written by one of the former military counterintelligence agents and a former employee of the special sector of the Central Committee of the CPSU, Joseph Linder, entitled "Legends of the Lubyanka. Jacob Serebriansky." About the famous scout with a difficult biography. In this book are given in a concentrated form all the complexities of our development, from the year 1917 to the end of the Great Patriotic War, which were never so revealed. ... Be sure to read.
- And the enemy in this book for yourself will not find anything new?
- The enemy knows so much, but he will most likely compare the facts he knows with those described in this book. By the way, I remember when Mitrokhin, a retired employee from the intelligence divisions, "left" for 1990-s, he handed over the materials he had shot to the Americans. So the Americans sent these materials to me — I was already retired then: “Please, get acquainted with the materials of Mitrokhin. Could you confirm where the truth is, and where is the fiction.” (Laughs)
When you read "Yakov Serebryansky", you will understand how in the most complicated situation in the old intelligence the process of formation of subunits and the selection of people was set; then inside the intelligence itself there were divisions that nobody knew about. After 1991, all this, of course, has changed.
- You worked for several years as a resident of Soviet intelligence in New York and you know America and its political structure, as they say, from the inside. Tell me, can the US policy towards Russia fluctuate depending on the personal characteristics of one or another person of the American ruling establishment? How independent, in your opinion, are the top US statesmen in decision making?
- A few years ago, the US Congress entrusted the work with community organizations as one of its priority tasks, and Condoleezza Rice, the head of the US State Department, approved a special directive “On State Department Tasks in Special Operations of Political Influence” shortly before leaving this post. The functions of each diplomatic officer are described: from the ambassador to the smallest dragoman.
In the context of answering your question, of great interest is the work prepared by the Rand Corporation (unofficial think tank of the US government - auth.) "US foreign policy before and after Bush", which assessed a range of political activities of the US government and developed a national strategy for countries which are of great interest to the United States. So the US policy towards Russia and other countries they are interested in is a carefully thought-out approach in preparing any official or unofficial events. It’s another thing that the conclusions made by some American analysts from the same Rand Corporation are not always perceived by the US administration when developing specific measures - and this is the sacred right of any statesman - but that they are carefully listened to, that’s for sure.
- Did the US ever declare aloud its interests to the depths of the USSR, or did the idea of mastering the natural riches of our country begin to soar in the air only in the post-Soviet era?
- In relation to the economic wealth of our country, the United States has always had great appetites. Few people know that at the end of the Great Patriotic War, when the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition discussed the future of the world, two decisions were made, I quote: "to create a United Nations Organization with the Security Council - as a prototype of world government" and - American billionaires particularly insisted on it - "to create a trilateral commission for the implementation of gradual attempts to merge the economies of the United States and the USSR." And such a commission was created. She existed. She acted. When I worked in America, I had to take part in some meetings with Rockefeller, and it became clear from his questions that as a result the Americans want from the USSR.
For them, the main political goal of work in this commission was, of course, the complete absorption of our economy, which some people from the Central Committee of the CPSU, then at the helm of our economic policy, knew or guessed, but participated in this game, hoping in turn to outwit the enemy and through this commission, to improve trade contacts between the USSR and the West. In some cases, they succeeded, in some they did not, but it took the West, in order to fully realize its intentions, as we see, for about 50 years.
- Judging by what you write in your book “Operation“ President ”. From the “cold war” to the reboot, everything terrible for Russia is just beginning: “The world has entered the phase of the most dangerous confrontation - civilized. The price of defeat in this confrontation is the complete disappearance of one of the civilizations from the face of the Earth.”
-In this case, the word "civilization" means a system or system of values that unites people of different nationalities living in different states and professing different religions. The powerful transnational oligarchic clans have already determined the future of all mankind, and the academic circles of the West have even given it a scientific-theoretical form for greater conviction. The practical process of globalization is already underway, and every year the world is steadily approaching the triumph of the new world order.
At the same time, the history of the West does not give any reason for hoping that its ruling circles will provide non-Western countries and peoples with the necessary resources and material benefits that Western states have purposefully taken from them for centuries. The whole world history convincingly testifies that they will never under any circumstances reduce their consumption for the sake of the survival of non-Western peoples. Under these conditions, the fate of the calf is prepared for Russia, which should be sacrificed "for the benefit of all mankind," as suggested by Colonel House, personal adviser to US President Wilson, almost a hundred years ago.
- What will be the significance of the state security bodies in this situation, which are designed to protect the sovereignty of the country?
“The Dutch scientist, Nobel laureate Jan Tinbergen directly said:“ Ensuring security cannot be left to the discretion of sovereign national states. We must strive to create a decentralized global sovereignty and a network of strong international institutions that will implement it ... " Like this. The global structuring and hierarchization of the world, while at the same time abolishing the sovereignty of nation-states, will allow oligarchies free access to all the natural resources of the planet.
“In evaluating the Soviet political offensive of a period of detente, the US administration concluded that the activity of Soviet intelligence operations was five times greater than the size of the activities of the CIA and its allies. But if we keep in mind that the USA still became the grave digger of the USSR, then a reasonable question arises: why did we lose?
- American intelligence officer, former US resident in India, Harry Rozitsky wrote in his book that if the US had such an illegal intelligence service as in the Soviet Union, at least a man in 100, then America could feel calm. So, intelligence did not lose. Lost the country as a whole. And lost because we did not have time. After all, almost the entire period of the first five-year plans, when we managed to create something, and that was happening under the conditions of struggle. And the struggle, both from the outside, and as a result of very serious disputes and disagreements in the political leadership of the USSR. And these differences were in the last years of the USSR.
In particular, using the example of the interaction of intelligence and the political power of the USSR, I can say that the work of our leaders in using the connections we have established in the political interests of the state has been weakened to some extent. Each of the leaders considered his point of view to be the last resort, they had serious disputes with each other. For example, in the case of Shevchenko (in 1970-ies, the deputy representative of the USSR to the UN, who fled to the West - aut.) Yuri Vladimirovich (Andropov - aut.) Told me directly: "I read everything you wrote. You were right, and no one will punish you. " The fact is that, having suspected Shevchenko of treason, I, as a resident of our intelligence service in the USA, began to signal this to Moscow. As a result, he received ... a ban on monitoring Shevchenko! Nevertheless, I said to myself: “No, this will not work!” and continued to send materials incriminating Shevchenko to the center.
- Was the prohibition against Shevchenko to be an inter-departmental conflict and unwillingness to cast a shadow on the Foreign Ministry, or did agents of influence in power structures take care of him in Moscow?
- It is difficult for me to say now why I was not allowed to touch Shevchenko, but I know that the influence of Shevchenko himself on our leaders was quite high. He and his family had a very close relationship with Gromyko. In addition, Shevchenko still had a group of good friends in different positions and in different positions who could play along with him, influencing our leaders who were reviewing my materials on Shevchenko. Since Shevchenko worked in New York for a long period of time, my predecessors who communicated with him also felt a little connected, were afraid to be reprimanded if something came up, and then not to go abroad. These are natural things ... There are, unfortunately, such stories in life. (Sighs). Troyanovsky (a Soviet diplomat, the next, after Shevchenko, the representative of the USSR in the UN - auth.) Then asked me directly: "Well, can not a Soviet person choose a new homeland for himself?" I answered him: "Homeland is one, you can change your place of residence." And made another foe.
- Then, perhaps, one of the internal reasons for the death of the Soviet Union was that, as you put it, “the work of our leaders in using the connections we have established in the political interests of the state has been weakened to some extent,” which, in simple terms, means: information scouts took note, but did not rush to use. Have you felt the political or diplomatic effect of your work?
- In principle, I felt and even visited receptions of our leaders, who familiarized themselves with the results of the work of illegal intelligence and made decisions based on it, but on the other hand, let's say, in my personal file, as I was told, there is a resolution of Nikita himself Sergeyevich Khrushchev, who in 1960's, I, as a resident of Soviet intelligence in China, warned about upcoming clashes on Damansky, and Khrushchev on the material with this information wrote: "I do not believe." But then we specifically sent people to the area of concentration of Chinese units opposite Damansky, where former White Guards lived then; these people met there with our ancient “source”, who said that the Chinese had driven him from their own apiary, built in its place a giant sandbox in which they recreated the entire territory on the other side of the border, which belonged to the USSR, and conduct military exercises there .
After this information, we studied the state of affairs on the Chinese railways - what kind of transportation is carried out and where, we talked to foreigners, and one circumstance, unfortunately, which turned out to be correct, helped us to make the final conclusion. I had a meeting with representatives of the Krupp concern, to whom we supplied vodka and which the Chinese were courting on a number of issues, and one of these representatives told me directly: "Are you blind? Do you not see what the Chinese are doing? And I see because I am Krupp, I am steel, and steel is war! " This is the whole conversation, which, nevertheless, overflowed the cup of our guesses. We summarized the information and concluded: we should expect armed provocation in the Damansky area. But Khrushchev did not believe us.
The deputy of the late Alexander Sakharovsky (at that time the head of the PGU of the USSR KGB — author), Lieutenant General Mortin, who at that time was sitting in his place, when I came on leave and met him, told me: “Listen, you're in a heart attack you will drive your telegrams! " (Laughs) It can be understood, because there was a difficult situation. In China, there was a cultural revolution, which is increasingly acquiring an anti-Soviet and anti-Russian character, in which, by the way, former Trotskyists actively participated, who were thrown out of the United States and for some reason thrown into China; This happened at the height of McCarthyism at the end of the 1940s. I was familiar with some of them. He knew Anna Louise Strong well, Vanshteyna. They all spoke Russian well.
- I’m listening and don’t understand why you were congratulating Mao Zedong himself on his birthday then?
- Mao Zedong could not congratulate me. It was a joke of my colleagues. When I celebrated one of my birthdays in China, the guys who were part of our station produced a “message” for the Xinhua report (Chinese news agency — author) on this event. (Laughs) Many years after this incident, when I came to work in New York, where I met my 50 anniversary, I found several of my former employees who remembered well our Chinese period. They brought and laid in front of me a roll of telex tape, where it was reported that Yuri Drozdov on his birthday congratulated Mao Zedong. I say: "Did they make a provocation again?"
... Here it is necessary to understand that the “Americans” and the “Chinese” were in intelligence by two internally benevolently rival structures, and this joke made me understand that a large legal residency in the USA took me for its own.
- Returning to China ... As I understand it, it was still impossible to discern the origins of the Chinese economic miracle in 1960's? Intelligence there was nothing to make such far-reaching conclusions?
- When in 1968, I finished my work as a resident of Soviet intelligence in China, they sent me a telegram from the center: "Despite the fact that your work in China is completed, Yuri Vladimirovich asks you to stay for a month and write your thoughts on the situation in China and the prospects of Soviet-Chinese relations. " During this month, I wrote the 103 pages, where among other things it was said that the situation that is currently developing in China is changeable, the Chinese decide to create a new social formation, but this is not surprising, it should be tolerated and proceeded from the fact that the Chinese will use the advanced elements of both the socialist and capitalist systems in the interests of their country.
More than a year passed after my return from China, when Andropov once called me: “I am returning your report on China to you” and gave me my material. And he added: "There are marks on it. Do you know whose?" I shrug: "No, I do not know." “This mark is so-and-so, this-and-so, and this so-and-so ...” Andropov calls the names of high political figures. “But in general it is boldly written!”
- Is it true that in the office of one of the American counterintelligence men hung a portrait of Andropov?
- Yes true. It was the head of the FBI office in New Jersey. It was in the middle of 1970's. Personally, I did not see this portrait, it was seen by our employee who was in contact with the FBI in exchange for our comrades who were then in the central New York prison. Enger and Chernyaeva. By the way, in fact, they were given just by Shevchenko, although, in principle, they should not have been caught, however, during one of the operations, Chernyaev and Enger were detained because we did not take into account that the Americans would launch into the air a small sports airplane, from which will monitor our scouts. So here. When our employee was in the office of the head of the FBI department, he looked up, saw the portrait of Andropov on the wall and was terribly surprised. There was an answer: "Why are you surprised? Am I unable to hang a portrait of the leader of the best intelligence of the world?"
- Did the USSR have more prospects with Andropov than with any other Soviet leader? What are your impressions about Andropov?
- I remember, Semichastny (at the beginning of 1960's, the head of the KGB of the USSR - author) for the first time sent me to a report to Andropov, as to the head of the department of socialist countries of the Central Committee. I did not expect that the meeting in the Central Committee was completely different than the other party leaders of the person with whom you can talk, interesting; we sat with Andropov then more 4 hours, he asked about China, and at that time people came and went to his office, some Andropov left: "Sit down, listen, you need it." Andropov, for example, read everything: both pleasant and unpleasant, but there were also such leaders who read only pleasant information.
Andropov never took revenge on anyone. If he saw that a person is not doing something, then he simply transferred it to another job, and if, for example, he removed the security officer who made some mistake in another department, then, having received an additional explanation of why the person made a mistake, he could and change your point of view. I remember once during our report to Andropov, Yury Vladimirovich said that he has other information that is different from ours. I replied: "It is not so." Andropov says: "How many days are needed to check who is right: me or you?" "Days 40-50. Difficult conditions." ... Kryuchkov then reproached me for why I reacted so rudely, but I said that for a long time Andropov asked me to tell only the truth. Later, the same Kryuchkov meets me: "Well, how?" "Unfortunately, I was right." (Laughs)
Now the FSB is preparing to release the book "The Andropov Team", where I wrote my impressions about the relationship with Yuri Vladimirovich, which I titled "Yu.V. Andropov (at party count in illegal intelligence)." (Smiles). He really was a member of our party organization. I came. But not every time, he was a very busy man.
- What were the maximum terms of the presence of intelligence officers in an illegal situation? And by the way, when the illegal was easier to prepare: in your time or now?
- In those years when we had to work, the future illegals often did not have the qualities that most ordinary people have today; our employees, for example, initially did not have a toothy grasp of people involved in business. Therefore, it was often necessary to look at what personal qualities are inherent in a particular person and actually give him a second education, from secondary school to higher education. We had no illegal immigrants who knew only one foreign language, at least 2-3. That is, we did a great job.
In one case, the shortest time for preparing an illegal for our specific purpose was 7 years, after which the 3 man worked abroad and decorated his chest with 2 with orders and the “Honorary Kekist” sign. Naturally, the term for preparing an illegal immigrant depends on the goal set for him. And the goal is different: from a good place where he can live and work in peace to the safe of some foreign manager. In this sense, the longest period from the start of work in illegal conditions to the performance of the assigned task was 17 years; this man, by the way, is back as a Hero of the Soviet Union.
If we talk about the terms of continuous residence abroad as an illegal scout, then Vartanian, for example, spent in such a role 43 of the year. Virtually all my life! Two children were born to one pair of our illegal immigrants abroad, and when, as a result of the betrayal of Gordiyevsky, they had to return home with their whole family, the children began to ask their parents to go back: "Mom, let's go home! There is no Coca-Cola or no banana here." (Laughs)
- What motives are motivated by people who decide to go in reconnaissance to “make life” of another person? Romance?
- Of course. I will give an example. Once in Rostov, a 16-year-old girl came to the KGB and said that she wanted to work in intelligence. The head of the department asks her: "Have you finished school? Do you know foreign languages?" "Not". "Then first graduate, learn the language, and then come." She asks: "What language should I learn?". The boss replies: "Whatever you want!" After a few years, she again comes to the same head of the department: "Do you remember me? I graduated from the institute, speak a foreign language ..." and repeats my request. Persistent girl! .. (Smiles). We took it. Have prepared. Married to our good employee ...
-... but she had a right to refuse?
- I had, of course, first introduced them, showed each other ... And they, like a couple, left for work. Helped each other there. And now they live like husband and wife. Although there were, of course, cases that they were quarreling abroad, and back from the airport they were driving in different cars. For a Soviet illegal immigrant, a completely different life began: children, for example, could study in Catholic monasteries, and when some of the illegal immigrants returned home, they had to re-enter the environment, although it seemed to be their homeland.
- If we have already touched on a delicate topic ... On an intelligence assignment, could an illegal employee marry abroad?
- I could. I had such friends. Shortly before the unification of the two Germanys, German colleagues ask me: "Do you know such and such a woman?" I say: "I know." "Can we use it?" I answer: "In the event that she agrees." They began to talk to her. She asks: "With whom from the employees should I leave? With him?” Recalls the person with whom she had worked before. “With him even to the ends of the earth! And with the other — no.” (Laughs) By the way, the guy she remembered was from Leningrad. He is already dead.
- You, too, Yuri Ivanovich, if you didn’t happen to marry by order, then at the beginning of 1960-s you had to find a new “relative” in the person of the legendary scout Rudolf Abel to help him get out of the American prison. Have you decided to become his "cousin" Jürgen Drives?
- Itself, but on the instructions of the Center, and as I think today, I acted somewhat lightly. When I was told that I should take part in the operation to return Abel, I only had the documents of a legal employee, that is, I had to somehow be documented. Then one day, returning from a task from West Berlin, I read on the iron railing of a dilapidated house: "Dr. Drives U." I thought to myself: “Now the name is already an address. And the main thing is that this address is in West Berlin.” And when it came up, what documents should I do to become a “relative” of Abel, to take part in this combination and in correspondence with James Donovan (at the time, New York lawyer Abel - author), I called this name-surname and address in the GDR. So did.
And in Germany, then there was a rule: in order for the district policeman to see who lives where, it was necessary to write his name on the blackboard, the so-called "Silent Receptionist", and hang it on the fence next to the house or next to the door to the house. The Americans gave the task to check "my" address to their "source", which fulfilled the task, found this building, although he was very afraid of the territory of the GDR, on which West Berlin was located. I then read his report to the Americans.
During the operation, I had to talk with Donovan, to meet and see him off - we even drank a bottle of wine with him, and later in his memoirs he wrote: "Drives had big hairy arms." (Laughs) I thought for a long time: "Do I have hairy arms?" (Demonstrates hands).
- "Flyers" - offensive term?
- It is not offensive. This is a person who, by virtue of his employment, has a civilian institution, private or public, as a permanent place of work. In the US, for example, I was listed as the deputy of our permanent representative to the UN.
- The words of 10 th National Security Advisor to US President Brzezinski are known: "We deliberately increase the possibility that the Soviet Union will send troops to Afghanistan." Was it possible to avoid a forceful scenario, not to be provoked? And did intelligence know about these words?
- I knew. But it was impossible to avoid the introduction of our troops into Afghanistan, because the Americans themselves actively climbed there, advanced their technical observation posts to our southern borders, and even concluded an agreement on Afghanistan with China. So it was an objective necessity. By the way, this was not the first time that we entered Afghanistan with a similar mission, but the third or fourth. In addition, we absolutely did not intend to linger there ...
- Was there really a plan for the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan in 1980 in the form of a document?
- Yes. I destroyed this document. A few years after the introduction of troops, I came to Kryuchkov and said: "From 1980 of the year I have such a material, the realization of which has not reached the point. What are we going to do?". He replies: "Destroy." I destroyed. A rather interesting and good document that we prepared together with Akhromeev (at that time, the first deputy chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR - auth.).
By the way, today Afghans, including Rabbani (in 1979-1989 - one of the commanders of the Mujahideen, in 1992 - 2001 - the president of Afghanistan - aut.) Say: "What kind of fools are we that fought with the Russians! I wish we were friends with them then. " And NATO members have long wanted to leave Afghanistan, but I very much doubt that the Afghans would let them out so easily, because NATO, unlike us, only did that they shot and bombed, and we shot once, then received a bullet in response, but while continuing to build; we built a lot of objects in Afghanistan.
During the stay of our troops in Afghanistan there were cases when, for example, near Kandahar, where there was a very difficult situation at that time, the head of the local Mujahideen came to the chief of our special forces at night with a bottle of brandy and said: "I will not accept the new power, but I don’t want to fight with you. Let's not shoot each other? " And today, Americans, Danes, the British are accustomed to look at these things a little differently: "Obey — that's all!"
Here we must also say this ... The West uses the territory of Afghanistan and the territories of our Central Asian republics to penetrate into Russia; in Afghanistan, people are being trained who create hotbeds of tension in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan ...
In this case, the Americans are implementing a plan that is set out in the work "Tasks of the US Air Force in the North Caucasus and Central Asia" - to divide the former republics of the USSR into pieces in order to immediately pick up what will fall off.
- Bin Laden - American invention?
- In the office in which we are now talking, sat the former American leader Osama Bin Laden. We talked with him for a long time. In that Afghan war, the Americans were directly involved in the activities of the Mujahideen. When 5 years ago, a new cohort of young generals came to the Pentagon's management, they came to Moscow, Leonid Ivashov met with them, who invited me to this meeting. There, the Americans ask me: "What is Basayev?". And it is known that Basayev was one of the leaders of the special forces unit involved in the military. I answer the Americans: “Basayev is our mistake, and your mistake is Bin Laden. As a result of an error in the organization of Bin Laden’s relations with the head of the local special formation, you and Bin Laden also had a break. So it happened with us.”
- What, in your opinion, is not enough for our competent authorities in the fight against terrorism? Can you give an example of a modern effective way to cope with this scourge of the 21st century?
- Arnold Schwarzenegger is a very clever person in this sense, when he was the governor of California, he perfectly organized antiterrorist work in his staff. Schwarzenegger knew his state, his population, knew how to notify the population about the threats of terrorist acts and organize the collection of necessary information - for this he even created his own intelligence center. And most importantly, he was doing what ours do not want to do — serious, well-thought-out co-work, in order to hold the region in his hands. Agent work, after all, lies at the heart of the foundations of all anti-terrorism actions, and our work is simply afraid. We don’t have to talk a lot about this work, but we’ll have to do it seriously.
- This year marks 30 years of the legendary reconnaissance and sabotage detachment "Vympel", the initiator of the creation of which you are. Why at that, relatively safe time, did the country need such a special unit?
- I began to think about the need to create such a special unit long ago. The history of the fight against the OUN underground in Ukraine, the landing of American agents from the air in Ukraine and in the Baltic states said that the decision to liquidate, for political reasons, the 50-60-e divisions that carried out special activities on the territory of the enemy and are capable of operational throughout the country, requires revision. I established myself in my mind when I saw what “our” Armed Forces look like when they arrived in Afghanistan, and in what physical form some of my former employees are there.
Guided by these considerations, in 1980, I reported on my idea to Andropov. "Why is this necessary?" - he was surprised. I answer: "For example, an acute situation has developed, you throw us into place, we solve basic tasks, and by evening the main forces are pulled ...". "How many people do you want?" "Thousands and a half." A year after we prepared all the documents, this issue was considered in the Central Committee and the Council of Ministers. And only 19 August 1981, the decision was made. The guys who developed this material, wrote papers are still alive ... I, I remember, "cut" them, corrected them, expressed my thoughts. An interesting document came out, for the year while it was being reviewed, I trod a small path to the Kremlin. (Laughs) He reported to both lawyers, and to such, and to syakimi ... What just was not there! They even remembered similar events that were in the prewar period.
- By what principle were people selected in the first Vympel?
- Those who took part in the Afghan events, made the backbone, which then increased someone's meat. They took only volunteers from all over the Union, only KGB officers and troops. There were fewer KGB officers, firstly, because it was difficult to recruit a large number of them, and secondly, as soon as we prepared such an officer on his courses, he then sat down at his desk, and, look, through 3-4 of the year already put on weight, it means that it no longer suits. Marshal Akhromeyev, when he looked at them in Afghanistan, then he said to me: "Listen, why are you so fat?" (Laughs)
Complete recruitment took a year or two and a half, but by creating a small unit in 100 and giving him basic training, we immediately sent him on a combat mission. They went to the job under different names: "Cascade", "Vympel", in my opinion, one group was even called "Vega". Some Vympel employees, of course, illegally completed “internships” in NATO special forces, and 90% of Vympel employees knew foreign languages, many had higher education in 2-3, some even graduated from Sorbonna, but at the same time, I emphasize , training, say, in hand-to-hand combat for all, without exception, went not on a soft carpet, but on asphalt.
The material support of Vympel was different from the provision of employees of ordinary organs by half, because people gave themselves to their work virtually entirely. The government’s attention to them was immense ...
- ... to the extent that only the Chairman of the KGB of the USSR could personally resolve any operation ...
--... only he alone. Because huge forces were immediately involved ...
- Moreover, outside the USSR. What did you do and where exactly?
- First of all, in Afghanistan, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua, in Cuba ... They did everything that is done in the war. And even more. "Stealing", for example, people who were secret carriers from the territory of the enemy. Or, in one of the countries of the Middle East, Soviet citizens were taken hostage. Negotiations with terrorists yielded no results. And suddenly, under unexplained circumstances, the leaders of the bandits die one by one. The rest will receive an ultimatum: if they do not release the hostages, they will have to choose for themselves who will be next ... They let everyone go.
- There are legends about the preparation of “Vympel” ...
- “Vympelovtsy” were prepared comprehensively. Could, for example, use hang gliders during their small operations. Could, if it was necessary for the case, drink two bottles of vodka and stay sober - there is a special medicine that turns alcohol into pure water. They used special cartridges that allow transforming ordinary objects into a powerful means of destruction: pens, umbrellas, canes. They knew how to make explosives from household chemicals. They knew which spiders could be eaten and which could not, with which grass the same rat had to be cooked so that it became fit for human consumption. In the territory of a number of countries, we equipped caches with special equipment stored there for reconnaissance and sabotage activities during the “special period”. Do they now? I will say this: let another person have a headache from this issue.
Disguised "Vamps" knew very well. Somehow I remember that General-Army Zakharov inspecting us was brought to the place where our children conducted exercises. He did not find them. Then, in order to demonstrate to him that the disguised "Vamps" see him, we asked Zakharov to make some movements, and turned on the radio more loudly. We ask: "What is the general doing now?". They answer: "He corrects his cap." (Laughs) And in the region of Chernogolovka, situated near Moscow, they followed the “pennants” literally when they were looking for them - so much did they merge with nature. When the guys got tired of it, they asked a conditional signal: “Can I take it?”. They replied: "You can." They pursuers instantly put.
- On the territory of the USSR "Vympel" acted?
- There were exercises, but for what! In the middle of 1980-x, at the request of the leadership, we checked the combat readiness of the special services and law enforcement agencies of the country. They threw 182 human “saboteurs” with equipment onto the territory of the USSR, from Odessa to Leningrad. They came, for example, from a submarine near Sevastopol, passed through the whole Crimea, reached almost to Kiev, and we received no signals, although the local authorities seriously slandered all the local organs: the Moscow KGB, the KGB of Ukraine, the Belarusian KGB asked to strengthen observation behind strategically important objects, because supposedly saboteurs are expected. No one was caught.
As a result, we calmly went to those facilities that we had planned for "sabotage": we checked, say, the Voronezh and Beloyarsk nuclear power plants, quietly studied their structure, got to the reactors and conditionally mined, and dropped airborne forces on the Yerevan NPP . At the same time, a large section of the Druzhba pipeline, right up to the border, was “mined” in 16 places as well, and they also hung a sign “mines” on one of the duty booths. Or. They even infiltrated the KGB district department in Dubna.
- The fate of Vympel is tragic - it has become a hostage of political clashes among the leadership of a new democratic Russia ...
- Yes. Yeltsin did not forgive Vympel the refusal to storm the White House in 1993, although in 1991, Vympel in a similar situation also did not take the building of the Supreme Council by storm, where Yeltsin was hiding. 23 December 1993, Yeltsin signed a decree reassigning Vympel to the Interior Ministry. 112 people immediately filed resignation reports. 150 people went into counterintelligence, intelligence, in the MOE. Some former employees have created private security companies or their own business; As far as I know, none of them have stained themselves with the service of criminal authorities, who offered advisory work for a colossal fee. The Interior Ministry then remained only 50 people. As I recall, these are the guys who came to Vympel at a later stage, at the end of the 1980s, when the cooperative movement began to develop in the country. Therefore, as for the real “vampelovets” who created this unit, I am sure that if the situation in the country had not changed, they would still continue to improve their fighting qualities in my country
- You had a very hard life: stormed Berlin in 1945 and saw the collapse of the victorious country, wandered around the world under other names for the sake of homeland security and found a time when in the homeland the names of the Chekists indiscriminately ostracized ... It seems that you can and at rest, but I know that you are still in the ranks, Yuri Ivanovich. What do you do today, of course, if this is not a state secret?
- Peace! I have always had the whole world as the field of my professional activity. In my memory, except for those countries that I told you about, and Tierra del Fuego, and Chile, and New Zealand, and many, many others; in memory people associated with these countries. But what a paradoxical thing I want to tell you ... From the point of view of understanding a whole range of subtleties in the political intricacies of world politics earlier, oddly enough, I was poorer than now, because I only dealt with analytics on narrow issues that concern me directly the head of this direction. Therefore, I would venture to say that working in the think tank that I created immediately after my retirement in 1991, remembering the use of open sources of information for the 16 chapter of the American instruction to intelligence officers, gave me no less than control Soviet illegal intelligence.