Alternative combat vehicle support tanks BMPT-100

The main idea of ​​the author is to work out an alternative layout of a support combat vehicle tanks (hereinafter - BMPT) with a higher level of crew protection than existing BMPT. Spaced reservations, non-standard internal layout of the machine, a changed arrangement of internal equipment and duplication of some components of the machine provide additional protection for the crew when penetrating the main armor.

Two openly positioned 57-mm guns make the car look like “bloated” from 2x30 mm to 2x57 mm “Terminator”, but two C-60 guns, with a distance between them sufficient for the crew to land, turned out as a result of using a special longitudinal armored capsule in the center of a fairly large tower.

The proposed alternative BMPT-100 (drawings and text) is a sketch of the author's work, which does not pretend to any exact technical and tactical conformity.

Figure 1. General view of BMPT-100

Figure 2. BMPT-100 front and top view

The machine is part of the family of combat vehicles based on the alternative tank T-100-140, in connection with which it is intended to use the chassis of this tank without any special changes.

Figure 3. Chassis BMPT-100

The main feature of the alternative BMPT-100 is the increased security of the crew of 3 people, as a result, the large mass of the machine is 62 tons (equal to the mass of the T-100-140 tank).

Fig. 4. Layout housing BMPT-100

The main armament of the BMPT consists of the armament complex of the well-known ZSU-57-2 - two paired 57 mm C-60 automatic guns.

Such a complex of weapons for BMPT will certainly be controversial, since this is not a ZSU and 2-i gun, its booking and auxiliary mechanisms will only make the car heavier, however, the presence of 2-guns was the result of some non-standard layout and technical solutions:

1) New layout of the crew in the tower "in a helicopter."

Figure 5. The layout of the tower BMPT-100

With this arrangement, the crew (the commander sits behind the gunner along the longitudinal axis of the tower) provides increased crew protection from the sides - the size of the armor plates and the ammunition between them, mechanisms and units is: DZ + 1200 mm + undercut. The crew is in a kind of “armored capsule”, which in the front projection is protected by combined spaced armor with the Duplet dynamic protection complex. The size of the armor in the area of ​​the frontal projection of the armored capsule is: DZ + 800 mm + podboy (in the version with additional protection: screen + 600 mm + DZ + 800 mm + podboy). The two upper hatches are also located along the longitudinal axis of the tower, one after the other. Using only one 57-mm cannon along the axis of the tower would limit the possibility of evacuating the crew, since landing / disembarking would be possible only with the gun raised up, in other positions the crew would be clamped by the gun barrel inside the machine. In the proposed model of BMPT, the crew can leave the car at any angles of inclination of the trunks because the distance between them allows the crew to easily climb between the trunks.

2) The design of the automatic ammunition consisting of 4-x independent chain conveyors (2 pairs on each side, the capacity of each conveyor - 42 shot). With this design provides a large capacity of automatic ammunition - 168 shots. Replenishment of the conveyors is possible from the fighting compartment without stopping the operation of the gun (even at the moment of firing). The BMPT commander replenishes the ammunition, to the right and to the left of him on the rotating floor of the fighting compartment there are two manual packs, each with a capacity of 42 shot (full mobile load - a shot of 252). At the moment when the guns are powered by the two upper conveyors, the commander can replenish the two lower conveyors through special hatches in the armored fences, and vice versa, when feeding the guns from the lower conveyors, the upper ones are replenished. The theoretical time to replenish any two transporters (shot 84) - 6-7 minutes. The standard firing mode is a simultaneous salvo from 2's guns.

In the event of failure or destruction of one of the guns or automatic loader - it is possible to fire from one gun.

3) An additional advantage of the two-gun installation is the higher rate of fire of the guns - up to 200 shots / min., Providing additional capabilities in the fight against air targets. With a regular doubles shot (for higher accuracy of shooting due to simultaneous recoil), shells are likely to overrun. This disadvantage is partially compensated by a large payload of ammunition and a small cost of regular 57-mm shots as a consumable.


Technical characteristics of BMPT-100:

Figure 6. Knots and units of BMPT-100

number	Main factors	Value	Justification
1	Model:	BMPT-100	Promising BMPT, is a member of the family of promising cars offered by the author based on T-100-140.
2	Purpose:	Support tanks in battle	Main objectives: defeat the RPG and ATGM calculations in various shelters, on the upper floors of buildings and in the mountains; the defeat of high-speed tank destroyers and mobile ATGMs; defeat enemy combat helicopters.
3	Chassis:	T-100	For maximum unification of the promising cars offered by the author.
4	Crew:	3 people	Standard tank crew - driver, commander and gunner.
5	Weight:	62 tonnes	Similar to the mass of the T-100-140.
6	Engine power:	1500 hp	Turbodiesel 6-TD3 (4), high overall power and compact dimensions. Start - electric, from the generator-starter.
7	Power density:	24,2 hp / t	At the level of indicators T-100-140 (BMPT "Terminator" - 21,3 hp / t, BMPT-72 - 22,7 hp / t)
8	Transmission:	Electro-mechanical	Non-standard chassis layout, high traction characteristics, ease of operation.
9	Speed ​​forward:	65 km / h	Similar to the speed of the T-100-140.
10	Speed ​​back:	65 km / h	High reverse speed (for driving backwards from narrow streets, mountain roads and other dangerous areas) are provided by reverse video cameras, driver observation monitors and reversible traction motors.
11	Depth of ford:	Until 5 m	Standard indicator for MBT
12	Ground pressure:	Up to 0,95 kg / cm2	It does not exceed the similar indicators of the T-90CM and Oplot-M tanks due to the 7-roller chassis.
13	Auxiliary equipment:	Air conditioning; Generator; PPO; HLF.	To ensure the comfortable conditions of the crew; 10 kW - electrical supply of the machine during the main engine idle period;
14	Cruising range:	400 km (without mounted barrels 2 x 200 liters); 500 km - with barrels.	The capacity of the internal fuel tanks - 700-800 liters (limited by EM transmission), the outer 780 liters.

weaponry

15	Automatic guns:	2 x 57-mm (C-60)	The design of the turret, due to the additional protection of the crew by side containers with 57-mm shots, increased rate of fire for hitting helicopters.
16	Rate of fire maximum:	200 (100) rds / min	The standard shooting mode is a single simultaneous shot of two guns and bursts of 4, 6, 8 and more shots. Emergency - shooting from one gun, in case of damage to another. Probably a decrease in shooting accuracy due to uneven recoil of a single gun.
17	Gun pointing angles:	-8 ... + 70 vert. 360 horizon.	Vertical rotational orientator shot, expands the shot to the desired angle for submission to the gun.
18	General ammunition:	252 shot	168 shots in the automatic battle in the turret and 84 (42 from each side of the commander) to manual in the BMPT BO.
19	Automatic Attack:	168 shots	4 automatic conveyor, with a capacity of 42 shot each (2 from each side of the tower).
20	Types of shots:	Ordinary and special	Conventional - regular PF, OT and armor-piercing shells; Special - PF and OT fragmentation shells with remote blasting.
21	Twin machine gun:	1x7,62-mm Fct	Ammunition - 2000 cartridges (2 tape on 1000 cartridges).
22	Automatic grenade launcher:	1x30-mm AGS-17D	Ammunition - 150 grenades. Types of grenades: VOG-17A, VOG-17М.
23	Guided weapons:	2x2 PU ATGM 140 mm	140 mm tank missiles (similar to those used on T-100-140), which are assembled from 2 parts in the PU channel, are used.
24	Types of missiles:	TOUR "Kombat"   Rocket with gos TOUR anti KAZ	- TOUR "Combat" with tandem cumulative warhead; - TOUR "Combat" with OF BC; - TR with laser seeker, cumulative fragmentation warhead; - TOUR with a trap against KAZ, tandem cumulative warhead.
25	Ammunition missiles	6 pc	4 pcs in launchers (PU), 2 pcs in the fighting compartment.
26	Unguided weapons:	2 x 7 PU 80-mm NUR	Launchers can be installed instead of PU with ATGM. Ammunition - 14 missiles (2 PU) or 7 missiles (1 PU).
27	Types of missiles:	80-mm AP-8 (C-8)	Unguided rocket, cumulative fragmentation warhead.

Fire capabilities of BMPT-100:

Fig. 7. BMPT-100 armament complex

As guided weapons (for maximum unification with the T-100-140 tank), it is proposed to use universal launchers that fire “tank” T-bom “Combat” of various modifications. Structurally, each PU for a TUR has two channels with a diameter of 140 mm with a closed rear section, similar in principle to the treasury of a tank gun (since the missiles are the same). The PU is loaded from the rear, with the installation raised in the 0 degrees position and the lateral anti-cumulative grill folded back to 90 degrees.

TOUR are assembled from 2-x parts in the launcher channel. Ammunition consists of 6 missiles: 4 - in PU and 2 - in BO in a special ammunition. Both “short” TOUR “Combat” 140 x 1065 mm, and “long” TOUR 140 x 1500 mm can be used.

Estimated range of missiles used - 5 species.

If necessary, PUs with TUR can be changed to PUs with aviation missiles AR-8 (C-8). For accurate firing at heavily fortified objects (bunkers, bunkers, and others), the use of AR-8L corrected aircraft missiles is provided.

number	Description of goals	Why they can not hit the T-100-140	Due to what they can hit BMPT-100
1	Calculations of RPG and ATGM in buildings of cities and other settlements;	The long barrel 140-mm gun restricts the rotation of the tower on narrow streets and mountain roads;	Minimum radius of gun barrels 57-mm С-60.
2	RPG and ATGM calculations on the upper floors of buildings and mountain slopes;	Maximum angle of lift 140-mm gun: + 16 degrees; 30-mm guns: + 45 degrees; 12,7-mm NSVT + 60 degrees.	Maximum angle of lift 57-mm guns: + 70 degrees. The minimum radius ometaniya trunks.
3	Calculations of RPG and ATGM in the trenches, on the reverse slopes of the mountains and behind other natural shelters;	Insufficient power of 30-mm shells with a remote fuse (DV). Excess capacity 140 mm shots from the Far East and their limited number - 19 pcs. (at 50% BK).	57-mm projectile with DV has a sufficient fragmentation effect, their number in the combat pack - 126 pcs. (at 50% BK).
4	The firing points, positions of anti-tank artillery and anti-tank guided missiles behind natural and artificial shelters;	140 guns' fire rate mm - up to 10 shots / min.	Volley from 7-14 of AR-8 aircraft missiles, (500 ready fragments in each rocket).
5	Maneuverable infantry fighting vehicles and light speed tank destroyers whose frontal armor withstands 30 hits - mm shells.	The 30-mm gun (28 mm on 1000 m / 60 degrees) does not penetrate their frontal armor. Insufficient rate of fire 140 mm guns and a limited number of BPS.	57 mm guns fire rate - 200 rds / min, armor-piercing tracer pierces 80 mm armor on 1000 m / 60 hail. Number of BPS - 126 pcs. (at 50% BK).
6	Combat helicopters;	Short range of 30-mm cannon at anti-aircraft targets (up to 2500 m). Elevation angle 30-mm guns + 45 deg.	The range of fire on anti-aircraft targets to 6000 m + powerful projectile with the Far East. The angle of elevation 57-mm guns + 70 hail.
7	A large accumulation of various targets in the open and in the green zone;	Insufficient rate of fire 140-mm guns to hit such targets.	Simultaneous salvo from 7-14 of AR-8 aircraft missiles, (500 ready fragments in each rocket).

Figure 8. Additional defense tower BMPT

Machine rating:

Advantages:

- New layout of the tower, provides increased protection for the crew from the sides and stern;
- The layout of the T-100 chassis provides additional protection for the entire crew when armor is broken through;
- The driver can urgently leave BMPT at any position of the tower;
- The high rate of fire of guns (at the level of ZSU-57-2) increases the firepower of the BMPT, including when fighting combat helicopters;
- 57 caliber mm allows you to use a wide range of shots, including PF projectiles with remote blasting and anti-aircraft guided projectiles with a seeker;
- Possible replenishment of the automatic loader simultaneously with firing from the gun;
- Universal PU, which can use different ATGM caliber 140 mm, used on the T-100-140;
- The upgraded SLA allows targeting the corrected NAR AR-8L.

Disadvantages:

- Large mass (62 tons) and height (mm 3400);
- The cost of the car is comparable to the cost of a promising tank;
- Only one simultaneously hit target;
- Accurate aimed fire is possible only when shooting 2-x guns at the same time;
- Large frontal projection of BMPT (due to the thighs of guns);
- High line of fire 57 mm guns;
- Sophisticated automatic loader;
- The overrun of shells due to the "pair" shot (compensated by a large ammunition);
- Side exhaust increases the visibility of the car;

Possible prospects for further modernization:

- Installation of a promising engine 6TD-5 with power 1800 hp (increase in power density to 29 hp / ton);
- Equipping the tower with a set of removable anti-cumulating grids, providing additional circular protection of the tower against RPG shots;
- A further increase in the size of the combined armor of the tower due to the new modules of armor, because increasing its size does not prevent the mechanic from leaving BMPT through the rear ramp;
- Installation of the standard active protection complex (KAZ);
- Creation of an alternative ZSU based on BMPT-100, firing 57-mm UAS shells and anti-aircraft missiles (presumably, ZSU should be as close as possible to BMPT for the enemy to misinform);
- Integration of the remote control system of the machine (for special operations in the “hottest spots” without threatening the crew’s life), thanks to electrical control systems, video surveillance channels and a rather large automatic loader 57 mm guns (168 shots).
- Installation of promising power units-power units (based on fuel cells), generating electricity for traction motors and on-board network due to chemical reaction of the fuel;
- The use of electromagnetic or electrochemical guns.

Comments

[Igor39]

It remains to build and test a prototype.

[ICT]

ssu 57 -2 --- reincarnation. just like a couple of years ago we started discussing it here

[Corsair]

Quote: TIT

ssu 57 -2 --- reincarnation. just like a couple of years ago we started discussing it here

But already in a slightly different "guise" ...

[Papakiko]

Quote: Corsair

But already in a slightly different "guise" ...

In its purest form, BMPT to suppress and defeat armored targets.

Quote: leon-iv

1-57mm1 / 2-14,53-7,628-PTURI Either the AGS or the Mortar in the Aft niche of the tower.

It already goes that BMPP (Infantry Support or BMPBMP).
We develop and develop, grow and grow.

The idea of ​​"motor" certainly has the meaning of life, but the dimensions are painfully gigantic. Somewhat embarrassing is the lack of air defense missiles in the BC. The machine gun and AGS do not have the ability to work at 360 degrees.

But in general, given the concept of NATO and their weapon systems, it is very necessary to lean on UAV destruction systems and everything that can fly.
And of course, avionics, AWACS and so on. etc.

[cosmos111]

Quote: Papakiko

In its purest form, BMPT for the suppression and destruction of armored targets

no, Papakiko ==to accompany(cover from RPG grenade launchers) tanks, during the assault on cities (((((

[Papakiko]

Quote: cosmos111

for escort (cover from RPG grenade launchers) tanks, during the assault on cities

With its height (3,4 m. What is a meter taller than all manufactured armored vehicles)?
How will he get to the city with such a width ??
All armored vehicles in the country are produced under the possibility of transporting railway (let the trains with oversized? Not all bridges in the country can withstand a similar weight of 62 tons.).
And the radius of the tower’s dimensions will not allow working in the streets at all. Only purely avenues and squares.

Quote: cosmos111

during the storming of cities

What cities are we going to storm?

[cosmos111]

Quote: Papakiko

What cities are we going to storm?

cities and villages in the North Caucasus ((((

for this, you can use truck tractors with trailers (((
as in the whole world, and in our country as well (((
provide DPS support (((
70-ton "Abrams"(((

and something else >>> ideas for a hundred years (almost ))))

[Papakiko]

Quote: cosmos111

cities and villages in the North Caucasus

Again, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and ultimately human lives and health? How long to?!
Mattress covers have completely demonstrated how effective drones are in the fight against "rodents".

Quote: cosmos111

as in the whole world, and in our country (((provide, traffic police escort (((70-ton "" Abrams "" (((

Quote: Papakiko

So not all bridges in the country can withstand a similar weight of 62 tons

[tchoni]

Want to hit aerial targets - my advice: get a radar! -)

[Civil]

A private project, as I understand it ... it means the sample will not be built, the maximum running layout

[cosmos111]

Quote: Civil

private project, as I understand it ... it means the sample will not be built, maximum running layout

not what, they will not build ((((
if you don't invest >>>oligarch>>> the cost of such a project is no less than 20 $$$ (((

[Hunghuz]

It will be adopted only after the end of the next war ......))))) as always in Russia) author V.Kuptsov - Deserters of war and peace) 3 books .......

[Hort]

Kuptsov’s heresy in the book is 90%, so you need to refer to it very carefully)

[AVV]

Quote: Igor39

It remains to build and test a prototype.

First you need to get money !!! And this is a lot !!!

[Doznanied]

Let's resurrect such giants here, T-35 !!! Fire for 5 goals at once !!!
Well, just hang any missiles, DZ, Arena, radar, anti-cumulative screens, etc. etc…………
A joke of course ...

[Alekseev]

Quote: Doznanied

Let's resurrect such giants here, T-35 !!!

And in vain they put a minus, in my opinion, a historical example "not in the eyebrow, but in the eye"

[tchoni]

By the way, the idea could not work only due to the lack of necessary technologies

[cosmos111]

Quote: tchoni

By the way, the idea could not work only due to the lack of necessary technologies

why didn’t it work? worked with T-28 (((
battle of the T-28 tank in Minsk occupied by Germans on 3 on July 1941 of the year ((((
crew commander Major Vasechkina (((
<<<<< in the spring of 1945, American counterintelligence interrogated the German major Rudolf Hale captured in the Ruhr area. During the interrogation, the captive major told the American intelligence officers that in the summer of 1941, when he fought on the Eastern Front and took part in the capture of Minsk, his company with equipment was almost completely destroyed by the Soviet tank T-28 that suddenly appeared on the streets of occupied Minsk >>> > http://tanki-v-boju.ru/boj-sovetskogo-tanka-t-28-v-okkupirov
annom-nemcami-minske-3-iyulya-1941-goda /

[badger1974]

and what on t-35 photo? In the course of time, the T-28 disposed exclusively of its courage and surprise, no more that he couldn’t do anything effective, especially not with whom? tanks or a company of soldiers on motorcycles?

[Alekseev]

"There remains a prototype to build and test."
Yes, yes, at the expense of the author it is desirable!
Of course, it is clear that the presented searchlight was only a dream, a kind of vapors ...
BUT...
BMPT must support the fire (she has nothing more to support) tanks. So?
That is, to carry weapons designed to destroy targets that are impossible, or very difficult to hit from a tank gun, machine guns or TUS.
What is the 57-mm automatic gun (S-60) intended for?
In fact, for firing at air targets at ranges up to 5-6 km. This, of course, if there is a corresponding SLA. But in terms of manpower, defense, BTT, this gun can be used, as written in the manual, in the case of urgent need, and is not at all a universal miracle weapon. And it does not compare and is close to the 125-mm D-81 in the power of ammunition. To hit the manpower out of it and the TCP calculations are not worse, but better, especially, with shells with prepared slaughter elements, shrapnel type. In addition, automatic 30-mm guns are abundant on the BMP-2,3 which can and should support tanks with their fire.
BMPT should have a weapon capable of solving tasks that cannot be solved using tank weapons.
This machine should be either ZRAK on a heavily protected tank chassis,
or carry the "mortar" , i.e. a universal weapon - an ATGM howitzer-mortar-launcher, like "Nona", plus a couple of NSVT.
At the same time, based on the MBT chassis, the one that was adopted by the army, it is me who shoves a 2-stroke diesel engine "from the Maidan" into the project.

[badger1974]

the crews of combat vehicles should not be overloaded with the nominal value of weapons, this is proved by the history during the tanks of the reserve of the main command and other foreign similarities,
if it comes to fighting in buildings, then the crew needs to have a maximum of 2-3 types of weapons and preferably instant reaction and large elevation angles,

for these purposes, leave only tank SDs (preferably modified) in the tank, so you can reduce the mass of the gun and apply air launch, the rocket does not need high speed on the muzzle (the barrel does not need to maintain enormous pressure), mate the barrel with the finished SDs ( the number of tests will be shown), 4 channels of automatic control of UR will be enough

second, the installation of a good Shipunovskaya 30-ki is desirable a72-ku - its usefulness is known to everyone, disassemble the brickwork and the fight with the near air is obvious (the advantages of one barrel is a huge BC)

the third is the turret mount of the machine gun for fighting the closest single enemy forces 7.62 is quite enough, preferably with an infrared direction finder and automatic + manual remote guidance

won weight can be put on extra protection, there is already something available

the crew will not be overloaded with all sorts of thoughts than to shy away, reaction to the face

all this can be done for a long time, there is nothing fantastic, everything is in stock

[Kars]

Quote: Alekseev

as written in the manual, in case of emergency,

The manual was written not under the art system, but under the ZSU, so there is no point in referring to it.

Quote: Alekseev

In addition, automatic 30-mm guns are abundant on the BMP-2,

Strange it seems like 30 mm did not live up to expectations during the storming of Grozny.

Quote: Alekseev

then I shove a 2-stroke diesel engine "from the Maidan" to the project.

Strange serial engine, which was put on MBT since the USSR, continuing on the Ukrainian modernization of the T-80

Personally, I think that the T-64E is quite enough, and this project is too revolutionary so far.

[Tankmaster]

This is a model and not a tank, if everything is brought to mind, then the tank will weigh 52-55 tons and all the khan's chassis, it is already at the limit of 46 tons.

[Genry]

This craft has the main drawback - a heavy tower. Moreover, inhabited. The reaction time of such a bulldozer will simply go off scale. For a tank chasing large, clumsy targets, this is acceptable. But for BMPT, where you need to react to every "psycho", this is destructive. And the people sitting in the tower will have to give out bags for blevo ... In short, the BMPT tower should be uninhabited.

A crew of 3 people is not needed. Because of this, the volume and mass of the armor are growing. Optimally - 2 people and sitting in a row, with a completely identical control system.



My vision of BMPT.
The main function: the defeat of stationary and moving firing points of the enemy, infantry, the identification and destruction of ambushes, ground reconnaissance and communications equipment (reconnaissance in battle), guidance of friendly fire weapons (tanks, howitzers) on targets, and the protection of their armored vehicles and infantry.

Chassis.
With the advent of the electric drive, it becomes possible to get away from the tracks and put the chassis on armored wheels (3 on board or more), with built-in electric motors, with a rubber rim or purely steel, with deep (tractor) ground hooks. This will not stop the car in case of loss of a pair of wheels.
A supply of energy is needed, in the form of an ionistor battery, for forced departure from the place of a possible shelling (a jerk of 30 meters until the diesel spins up or starts) or economical creep (100 meters).

Suspension.
It should be with intelligent control (go down, rise, fit into the landscape, pretend to be dead).

Reservations.
Very very !!!

Eyes.
Radars, IR and T-range camcorders, with automatic target identification and suggesting a method of destruction (automatic weapon guidance upon confirmation).
Direction finding of enemy communications devices and radio interference sources (paired with another BMPT).
The ability to launch a reconnaissance vehicle (projectile).
Connection to a single information system.

Armament.
General principle: short-barreled (more precisely, small-sized), with the largest ammunition and without missiles (air defense is a separate technique!)
On the chassis: a front 7,62mm machine gun with remote control (maybe not the only one).
Uninhabited tower:
- 30mm gun, for hitting light vehicles, helicopters, slightly fortified targets;
- 100mm mortar, for hitting closed targets (in ditches, on the roofs of high-rises, behind the building), heavily-defended and armored targets (using homing mines in the upper hemisphere), launching reconnaissance devices (with wings and / or parachute);
- 12mm machine gun, for all living things, with a sniper function.

...

[iSpoiler]

garbage, just $ 150 billion to develop, the same amount for building the plant, well, and another 100500 Russian GDP to build the required amount.)

[Tankmaster]

What you write is complete vomiting, since two people on an armored object simply can’t perform all the functions in battle, an example of this is already the T-34, issue 40, up to and including 43, when the commander couldn’t command normally not to fire.
And for a start go at least serve in the army so as not to write such nonsense.

[Geisenberg]

Quote: Igor39

It remains to build and test a prototype.

View at least a draft project. And then only a reasonable layout, and that is controversial. The idea is interesting in general. That’s what alerted was the installation of two guns so that the crew could conveniently leave the car. Purely my place - the combat module must be uninhabited.

[washi]

Quote: Igor39

It remains to build and test a prototype.

On whom?
This product is too expensive for the "wild tribes" and too stupid for a normal army.
It can work only in the steppes of Kazakhstan or the deserts of Turkmenistan.
But this product is not suitable for this.

[avt]

Quote: Igor39

It remains to build and test a prototype.

Yeah, finally dopped the fact that the creators of the BMP on the 3rd realized, even two30mm is not enough.
Then

Quote: TIT

ssu 57 -2 --- reincarnation. just like a couple of years ago we started discussing it here

Well, after the discussion, it turns out that this is not enough. A larger caliber will be needed, well, somewhere 100mm, and it would be nice to have someone to protect the tank protection vehicle, so that they do not run after it - provide for the variant of the troop compartment. Well, when the circle is cut, time will pass, they will start to make a normal BMP with a module of the type "Bakhchi". searches and tests.

[cosmos111]

Quote: avt

Well, after a discussion, it turns out that this is not enough. A bigger caliber will be needed, well, somewhere 100mm, and

for BMPT there is no universal weapon ((((
the main task is the maximum density and duration of fire ((((
both direct fire, and along the hinged path (((

therefore, there must be a BMPT class, on one wheeled chassis (((
1. BMPT armed with a troika "Bakhchya" (((
2.57-2 mm -С-60 (((
3.23-2 mm - 2А7 (((
4. 2 th 30 mm 2А42 (((
5. assault self-propelled gun, TYPE - 2S31 "Vienna" 120-mm mortar howitzer which is mounted on a tank chassis((((
this is only for cannon weapons (((((
AGS, 12,7,7,62 in each configuration ((((

[cosmos111]

Quote: cosmos111

be BMPT class, on one wheeled chassis (

mistake-ON TRACK CHASSIS !!!!!

[leon-iv]

For what purposes 2 -57mm babahalki?
Combat S-8?
Why 6TD engine?
We here with Kars and other comrades for a long time frayed

1-57mm
1/2-14,5
3-7,62
8-ATGM
And either the AGS or the Mortar in the Aft niche of the tower.

[Kars]

Quote: leon-iv

Why 6TD engine?

how is this why.
this is firstly the author from Kiev and BM Oplot base
in addition, the smallest dimensions are uncountable French - but that probably costs as much as a quarter of the installation.

In this project, I basically like everything - especially visualization.
the crew is well placed - this is not how the 3 capsule is promised shoulder to shoulder, that the side is thin.

there’s not enough mortar. but here it’s a solid weapon.

I hope someone from KB Morozov sees and at least contributes to the advertising campaign - now the main thing is to advertise and they can find an investor.

at least my feeling is that it's too good than it can be in reality.

[cosmos111]

Quote: Kars

this is firstly the author from Kiev and BM Oplot base

from Oplot only 2-stroke engine (((
the rest is a completely new machine, with a front-mounted engine and generator and two (located on the sides) traction electric motors ((((((

transmission: electro-mechanical (((
generator,which transmits electricity to 2, on each side of the traction electric motor ((((
the question arises? >>> why such, we need such a powerful engine as 6TD ((((
quite enough, a compact V-shaped diesel engine, UTD-29 ((((
for generator operation >>>> is enough (((

[Kars]

Quote: cosmos111

the rest is a completely new machine, with a front-mounted engine and generator and two (located on the sides) traction electric motors (((

Well, as I recall, it started with the BM Oplot chassis. And if you wish, you can reconfigure the electric base, rollers, balancers, tracks.

Quote: cosmos111

quite enough, a compact V-shaped diesel engine, UTD-29 ((((

Make your version - you will not be limited in the engine

[cosmos111]

Quote: Kars

Well, as I recall, it started with the BM Oplot chassis.

but if, to be absolutely precise, >>> started with the T-80 chassis (((

Quote: Kars

Make your version - you will not be limited in the engine

you are not a tank design engineer, I am not an engineer >> express our opinions on the topic >> and only

[Kars]

Quote: cosmos111

but if, to be absolutely precise, >>> started with the T-80 chassis (((

good chassis by the way.

Quote: cosmos111

express our opinions on the topic >> and only

vryatli theme engines. not saying that its author himself developed

Installation of a promising 6TD-5 engine with 1800 hp (increase in specific power to 29 hp / t);

Installation of promising power units-power units (based on fuel cells) that generate electricity for traction motors and an on-board network due to the chemical reaction of the fuel;

[Dimsan]

Author Respect! did a great job and set out his vision! it remains to send maybe to Nizhny Tagil and the results are what any will be)

[Eugeniy_369k]

Well, what can I say .... Well done, respect and respect, reading an article, you might think that what thread got into the KB secret files , some illustrations of what are. It doesn’t grind, but offers.
“I do not agree - criticize, criticize - offer, offer - do, do, do - answer!” - Sergey Pavlovich Korolev.

[cosmos111]

but the biggest impression of the BMPT 100 tower (((
everything is taken into account, almost without weak zones ((((

such a tower (with a new cannon), on the T-72B3 >>> turned out to be the T-72B A3, at the level of the Leopard 2 A5, no less ((((

[Eugeniy_369k]

Quote: cosmos111

but the biggest impression of the BMPT 100 tower (((
everything is taken into account, almost without weak zones ((((

Well, no one says that wunderwaffle , the man tried, drew, pondered and presented his project to our court. There is always a reason to ....

[miihan]

Fucking car !!!))))

[Freemason]

Article + development is interesting, there are several nuances, but I do not see the point of discussing them.
I'd add on my own, the idea needs to be implemented. Creative people have not yet transferred! )))

[just exp]

interesting concept. judging by the engine based on Almaty will be.

[Doznanied]

I don’t understand, is the driver sitting behind? Both in battle and on camp?

[Evgeny_Lev]

I also did not see the mechanic ((probably the author of the self-propelled chaise sees.
I also did not understand the landing and disembarkation of the crew.
How to shoot a mortar right away?
The wunderwaffle is shorter.

[dustycat]

Quote: Evgeny_Lev

How to shoot a mortar right away?

By ballistic computer with equipment for detecting the location of a shot with stabilization.

[Shurale]

To mine crap, it’s better to have a full-fledged tank or a terminator, there are 30 mm guns, and automatic rockets and grenade launchers, the mine terminator is more effective ...

[Doznanied]

There is no additional protection from above, from the same "Jewel"!
The machine was created to support and conduct combat in cities and mountains, to defeat targets at a height, and it itself does not have normal protection against defeat from this height. Accordingly, if the first did not find a grenade launcher on the top floor, then only the driver will remain alive!
Can a lattice screen be attached between the guns, but DZ blocks on top of the armor?

[dustycat]

Quote: Doznanied

Can a lattice screen be attached between the guns, but DZ blocks on top of the armor?

Easier folding / lifting trellised anti-cumulative canopy.
Well, KAZ on him.

[Hellbringer]

It turns out too high, great visibility, I did not find how much it is in height, it turns out the base + tower + gun add-on ??????
The layout of the engine in front, it’s like in Merkava we will consider + to the crew’s security.

[kotvov]

the height is 3,4 m. and two guns surprise. just because the crew would have to put it. it’s a strange machine. I don’t want to offend the author, but there are a lot of weapons.

[Crang]

Good article. It is unclear which tank base served as the basis for this anti-personnel tank.

[Doznanied]

An alternative Ukrainian tank of the near future is the T-100-140.

[Hey]

I agree with the concept.
Confuses weight and height.
I would add 2 coaxial machine guns coaxial with cannons, sometimes a 57mm abrasive in excess. And a mortar at least 60mm, and a machine gun mechanics. (As they say, we’ve got it, but it is.)

[Evgeny_Lev]

Is there a mechanic driver there?
We would not want to place a 3-zone air defense system and a torpedo tube just in case.

[AGM-114]

Unnecessary g # obviously. Even more - an unnecessary hohlog #no.

[yanus]

I can only sympathize with the crew. BC is completely located in the tower on the sides, it’s almost impossible not to get there from the RPG in the same city. If there is a DZ from old grenades, which is likely to reflect a blow, then new grenades will fall in love. On the same T72, BC is located in a place where it is not easy to get from an RPG.
And if they hit a missile with warheads operating on a span above the tower, then the entire ammunition in the plane of destruction. Well, or gets into a narrow armored capsule ...

[chenia]

Quote: avt

Will need a larger caliber, well, somewhere 100mm

Why the hell when there are 125 mm tanks? And where is the support here? It turns out a tank of a smaller caliber.

Quote: leon-iv

1-57mm
1/2-14,5
3-7,62
8-ATGM
And either the AGS or the Mortar in the Aft niche of the tower.

This is closer to the topic. Take object 787 as a basis, in the center 57 mm and 7,62 mm. on the sides is 14,5 mm in a pair with 7,62.
AGS and the rest is already redundant.
The 57 mm machine gun covers both the 30 mm gun and the 40 mm AG and 82 mm mortar. 57mm will take any tank on board, and any BMP from any angle and at maximum range.
In addition, it can be an additional means of air defense (helicopters, attack aircraft). For infantry firing, have ammunition in which there should be more projectile (composed of 3-4 parts) than charge (firing range no more than 3-4 km).

[Tankmaster]

The project is drawn beautifully .... but everything else is nonsense.
1) there is no cooling system for generators and traction engines.
2) BK 57mm shells at damage detanates, 30mm are not subject to detonation.
3) dimensions and weight make the car very vulnerable.
4) the defeat of the MTO tank and the car is immediately dead.
and you can still list the shortcomings and problems for a long time .... although it pleases that a person thinks and is a fan of the cause, there is very little practical knowledge.
But for WOT, the car will do.

[AGM-114]

Here ALL rave. Grunting (no joke, push-pull 5TDF / 6TD really grunts) self-propelled target for calculating ATGM and RPG.

[Tankmaster]

The engines of the 5/6 TD family have their pros and cons, but these are tank engines that give out what they should give out and, when used correctly, they have proven themselves well. Moreover, the engine to defeat the ATGM and RPG ??? any armored object can be hit .... You just have a down complex ...
But the fact that the project is not legally capable agrees, but since you declare it, you are full P ... art, I declare to you as a lump. BTT companies in stock and BTT designer for life.

[Kars]

Quote: Tankomaster

and BTT designer for life.

And if I do not confuse you at all, then you also understand large-scale models.

your opinion on the t-64 series from trumpeter?
and which T-90 is better than Meng's or trump?

[badger1974]

as for the technical assignment to the author 5, as the right to life -0, due to the complexity and most importantly embezzlement in the defense industry, unless in China to sell or Iran
the disadvantages can also be attributed to the diesel-electric power one, it is expensive and heavy, the reliability is also questionable (remember the PT-sau Ferdinand), the second is a huge armament rating which, according to combat conditions, overlaps each other, and the most important thing is to overstrain the crew in studying the matbase and combat the capabilities of the entire face value of weapons, in combat units this BMPT will be hated, since its maintenance by the crew will look like an overwhelming job for 3 people (and if you delete the mech-water and the commander, then for one), in the "terminator" along the way 5 people

[gallville]

And for me, the idea of ​​BMPT on a modern chassis is nonsense.
Book BMP from RPG for you and BMPT, and even with 6-7 pairs of eyes overboard. The best support for a tank is either another tank (carousel) or infantry.
In general, all branches of the army act in the interests of the infantry itself. Those. BMPT is infantry support support
Here I support BMPT-72 as an aggregate for units on T-72 and BMP-2, where it is useful.
But for units with modern "armor" BMPT as "fifth leg."
For reference, in each motorized rifle battalion + -31 BMP (which is usually supported by a company of 10 tanks) there is also a mortar company and there would be about 6-9 such mortars:

he and in the city come in handy from the roof to drive the infantry and clean the height quickly.

[Leshka]

not a bad project

[Akim]

Two openly located 57-mm guns make the car look like a "swollen" from 2x30 mm to 2x57 mm "Terminator"

The funniest thing about this car is the GIRLS!

[ed65b]

In Grozny, tankers easily smoked rocket launchers from the upper floors, examples and video darkness.

[extankist]

Yeah, the flight of. on a high-explosive action, he even took out the roof.

[bubble82009]

again the dead BMPT project is proposed. why do it? to suppress infantry and anti-tank weapons? but there’s a lot of such a machine for this. the tank is generally intended primarily to deal with infantry and its weapons, and then with tanks. this is a tank in the western strategy, primarily a fighter with armored targets, and then with infantry.
make the car heavier than a tank? meaning? overload with weapons and for what? if you build a car, you must consider the possibility of an attack from the air. a universal platform is needed which is capable of supporting tank and motorized rifle units with fire. not only work on infantry or PTK but also on aviation. that is, a tool capable of quickly destroying identified firing points. and another such machine is obliged to fight for 2-3 goals at the same time.

[extankist]

Everything seems to be good, the concept is traceable. Everyone says - this type of tires is needed, not in large quantities, but needed. Why - but why - to be given to assault groups and units engaged in battle in urban and similar conditions to destroy machine-gun crews in fortified positions and basements, infantry groups, infantry crews, making passages, etc. etc.
Although, according to ME, the standard armament of TANKS and BMPs is more suitable for this - with additional protection (grilles) installed, artillery - the whole range of shells and plus a Krasnopol-type shell on an accessible trajectory for correction in the target illumination area or according to GLONASS or GPRS data. Fire support helicopters where possible. MRAP-type vehicles with heavy weapons based on them. RPG, RPO, etc.
What is the problem of such a machine in my opinion. Firstly, this is an initiative development, as they say TK from the MO was not. The second - a place in the organizational staff structure is not provided. Third, there is no combat training program. Fourth - not defined until the end of the task, again in the proposed org. staff structure. Another thought is that tank factories do not want to reprofile part of the conveyors and are engaged in this, which has been produced already since 2001 but has not yet found its niche. But the fact is that even in the battalion unit with attached forces and means there is such a variety of means of destruction that the Defense Ministry shrugs its shoulders and says, “IT IS NECESSARY FOR US, we also have what is behind our eyes.” And essentially right.
ADDED, "Tunguska" to book, here's a similar car)

[wanderer_032]

Greetings to all.

Quote: extankist

Although according to ME, the standard armament of the TANKI and BMP is more suitable for this - with additional protection installed (grilles)

Andrei, but such a machine in combat conditions in nas. Points could be much more effective at hitting targets located on the upper floors of high-rise buildings than MBT (now, after all, not only the experience of Chechnya needs to be taken into account, in many cities there are buildings and higher ones than "Khrushchev five-story buildings" and even higher than the "Dudayev Palace"). And given that its armament practically does not protrude beyond the dimensions of the hull, then it will be able to carry out the transfer of fire to another target much faster than a tank. In the conditions of a battle in our station, this plays an important role.

Quote: extankist

Book "Tunguska"

I doubt that this chassis will withstand as much extra weight as the MBT chassis.

[cosmos111]

Quote: wanderer_032

I doubt that this chassis will withstand as much extra weight as the MBT chassis.

tracked chassis GM-352 for anti-aircraft gun-missile system 2K22 "Tunguska" (((
chassis weight -24000 kg >>> maximum load-11500 kg >>>> will not be enough (((

Ukrainian ZRAK, based on the T-64 tank, it remains only to book a turret with a 4, 23-mm ZU-23-2 >>>> excellent armored vehicle for urban battles good ((((((
tank chassis only (((

[Tankmaster]

This is a project of Donetsk, but on the basis of the T-80UD ..., look carefully at the rollers and frontal projection.

[pawel57]

The combat use of the Terminators itself in what? If you keep in mind the support of tanks, that is, BMPs, Shilka and Tunguska air, defeating targets and suppressing self-propelled guns of Carnation and Acacia or Vienna. Fight in the city - they fight with assault troops and groups, the base of the infantry, if the tanks are necessarily infantry. In general, modern combat requires reconsidering the organizational structure of the units and the training of the officer. Syria tanks in the city roll it from the lack of the infantry guard and comparative weakness insurgents. The main idea of ​​creating combat vehicles based on tanks is to have the same mobility and off-road patency, one platform, one MTS supply, etc. In the now proposed BMPTs, the very idea of ​​their creation and application is emasculated. The result was a tank with a different set of weapons with the same tank flaws and requiring infantry support itself. Even 5 years ago, our military scientists described the composition of battle groups on the basis of a single tank platform. These are tanks, bmw (bmp platform tank), at least 4 infantrymen, ZSU on the basis of the tank, art. large caliber 152-204mm (platform tank) but with a small firing range of 6-8km. The appearance of the BMVT is a tank base, an armament. gun with a caliber of at least 57mm, PKT, AGS, ATGM modern control system. firing, 4-6 infantrymen with the possibility of circular firing of military units from hatches and their quick landing. Reservation of cars is allowed less since place in battle order behind the tanks, because tanks are the main striking force. Now in pursuit of firepower create few viable monsters.

[wanderer_032]

Armor always works only with interactions with infantry (with rare exceptions).
And such a machine would be very useful for assault groups in US points with dense urban development and during the assault on fortified objects.

[max702]

The problem is that the regular use of all the forces and means in battle that you listed only happens in charters and staff games, but in life you either don’t have this or that, and with the loss of one of the components all this power becomes almost useless, so BMPT is an attempt to create a less universal combat unit to carry out the urgent tasks of today, which main tasks are fighting ambushes, escorting convoys with cargo and personnel, working at checkpoints, storming and clearing city buildings. In the forest, steppe, and other open areas, artillery and other standard weapons are doing well, but mountains, urban development, are a completely different matter.
RS; By the way, during the tests of the BPM-3 we checked the effectiveness of the 30mm cannon in tanks, a brand new T-55 was shot with 1.5km of armor, but the tank was not operational, the hull and turret were cracked, all attachments destroyed that is, if it’s impatient, then a modern tank can well be put out of action and not fall off the answer.

[extankist]

Quote: gallville

And for me, the idea of ​​BMPT on a modern chassis is nonsense.
Book BMP from RPG for you and BMPT, and even with 6-7 pairs of eyes overboard. The best support for a tank is either another tank (carousel) or infantry.
In general, all branches of the army act in the interests of the infantry itself. Those. BMPT is infantry support support
Here I support BMPT-72 as an aggregate for units on T-72 and BMP-2, where it is useful.
But for units with modern "armor" BMPT as "fifth leg."
For reference, in each motorized rifle battalion + -31 BMP (which is usually supported by a company of 10 tanks) there is also a mortar company and there would be about 6-9 such mortars:

he and in the city come in handy from the roof to drive the infantry and clean the height quickly.

There is such a mortar, called NONA, any chassis. Just choose. Again, no one wants to change the existing OSH, too costly.

[gallville]

Quote: extankist

There is such a mortar, called NONA, any chassis. Just choose. Again, no one wants to change the existing OSH, too costly.

Of course, this is better in the Minbatra:
But nonetheless, against the background of AMOS, it looks somehow weaker.

[abc_alex]

The author of the project, in my opinion, has a rather specific idea of ​​the BMPT functions. For some reason, he decided that this was a machine that was finishing off everything that a tank could not knock out. Strange ...

For example, how is it supposed to teach BMPT to shoot down helicopters? To do this, you need a set of electronic equipment comparable to at least Shilka. That is, a rather large external antenna. (where is she on the layout?) And without it, nothing will come of it, the helicopter hangs over a 5 km zone and quickly controls its height, all sorts of warm-visual things will not play here.
For air protection, there is a Tunguska air defense system. Although, of course, as an option, the ability to shoot down a helicopter is only welcome, but I doubt that a couple of guns in a tower of such mass will be capable of it.

Why did the author need such a caliber of the main art. installation? This, firstly, limits the ammunition load, and secondly, it is completely redundant against light armored vehicles and not enough against tanks. Even against the tanks of the end 2MV 57 mm was not enough, especially against modern ones.

BMP reliably calm almost any ATGM. Jamming a truck or a jeep with 57-mm shells is, you know, behind an RPG jerboa. Yes, a couple of these guns!
Perhaps 30 mm cannon "Terminator" is not enough and 40 mm would be preferable, even 45. But not 57!

But against the infantry for some reason, again, one rifle machine gun. Why not 12,7? This caliber will do well with both a jeep and light shelter.

And why such a fly agaric with rocket weapons? Are there tank ATGMs and conventional ATGMs and even NURS? Well, let's say, prefabricated tank ATGMs in containers are a feature. But what kind of devil is NURS? Walls out? The idea of ​​hitting a "cluster of targets" in this way is somewhat daring. The author has not forgotten that he is designing a tank, not an airplane? A volley of NURSs from above is one thing, but in a straight line ... How to aim? NURS is not a projectile, with its flight path everything is somewhat more unstable. But what if the tank rolls at the moment of the shot? Where will the volley go? Or is it supposed to hang the tank on the level before each NURS salvo?


And the last one. As the author plans to manage all this riffraff with the help of 3 people.
Let's make a quick calculation: Vehicle commander. Fur-water. This is clear. And then - the gunner? I apologize, but he somehow needs to fire and ATGM from machine guns. So not a "gunner", but at least two shooters, one for artillery systems, the other for missile systems. After all, as I understand it, this BMPT is planned to be led along the front edge, so the task of self-defense will be relevant for it. In addition to the fact that it must perform the actual task of protecting tanks.
A very positive idea is to use the BMPT commander to replenish the warhead. :) Well, right, what else should he do? Not to follow the combat situation. :)


In general, the question of aiming all the assorted combat equipment of this project is very difficult. After all, here are collected samples with not at all identical ballistic characteristics. For example, the 57-mm cannon has anti-aircraft ballistics, but the AGS does not seem to exist :) and the NURSs are also not quite high-precision weapons. The OMS of this BMPT thus must perform a very difficult set of tasks. Moreover, if there are only 3 people in the car. Let's imagine a certain "tactical screen" of the "gunner". It should display "ellipses" of NURS and AGS, taking into account the position of the tank in space, the zone of destruction of the machine gun and its sight, the sight of the guns, and ATGM marks. This is in addition to reticle, indicators and other attachments. Isn't it cool?

[wanderer_032]

Quote: abc_alex

BMP reliably calm almost any ATGM. Jamming a truck or a jeep with 57-mm shells is, you know, behind an RPG jerboa. Yes, a couple of these guns!

To do this, there is a machine gun there and it is also provided for the installation of a 30mm AG so that you can take advantage of manpower without wasting 57mm guns. Which for longer distances can be used for sheltered manpower, including located on high-rise buildings.
Rather powerful and more versatile ammunition for 57mm cannons with good SLA will practically leave no chance for the enemy infantry to maintain their positions, they will either die or be forced to leave their positions.

[badger1974]

do not forget that the enemy infantry may have a portable anti-tank system such as a bumblebee or Scythian skiff and what these complexes can do with tanks (the destruction of the moving pillbox of Merkava by a cornet) everyone knows that the famous Arena will also protect against bumblebee shelling, so this is a dead child, no reaction

[tchoni]

Koment is definitely a plus. EVERYTHING is said in the case.
especially when creating BMPT projects, it is striking to the authors' conviction that the small-caliber gun in itself can provide air defense of the compound.
So, guys - pipes! In modern conditions, even the price of a specially trained "Tunguska" as an air defense system tends to zero. For air defense can only be provided comprehensively, with the involvement of fighter aircraft, DLRO aircraft, and other forces and means.

[dustycat]

Quote: abc_alex

And if the tank at the time of the shot has a roll? Where will the volley go? Or is it supposed to hang a tank by level before each salvo of NURS?

Actually, ballistic computers with the reflection of information in the guidance sight for this purpose.
And they have long been working on the position of the barrel in space, and not the place of the machine.

[120352]

God forbid this device with a 57mm caliber from World War I meet in a battle with a tank. There is nothing to answer. And he’ll probably be able to bring down fences. If the fences are not concrete, but wooden, of course. And if behind the fence there will also be a calculation of grenade launchers - in general, happiness!

[dustycat]

Well, 57 mm anti-aircraft guns of any modern tank will be stripped from DZ, KAZ, optics, optoelectronics and everything hinged due to the range of 60% of the defeat of the tank’s weapons themselves (8-12 km).
Here to equip these ZSU-2-57 with appropriate detection and guidance systems for ground targets - it’s worth considering.

[wanderer_032]

The project is certainly interesting, but one thought haunts me looking at it.
This is the supply of ammunition to the 57-mm guns from the main conveyors to the feeding conveyors.
I looked at the blueprints and did not understand point-blank how projectiles from conveyors rotated 90 degrees. and fall on the feed conveyors?
It is also noteworthy that the shells are laid with their "nose" outward and, when fed to the conveyor, they cannot turn in the direction they need.

[dustycat]

Nothing complicated.
In the extreme position of the conveyor, it rotates around the projectile with a sleeve into the feeder.
A little refine the gun itself and the whole business.
I can draw.
Not the fact that there will be exactly like that, but very close.
Machines for the manufacture of furniture fittings are much more complicated.

[chenia]

Quote: abc_alex

Indeed, as I understand it, it is planned to conduct this BMPT along the front line, so the task of self-defense will be relevant for it. In addition to the fact that it must carry out the task of actually protecting the tanks.

BMPT was created in Soviet times, and the purpose in its name. This is a unit of a tank unit, can serve as a command vehicle. And do not strain it with the functions of artillery. The main thing is to suppress anti-tank fire weapons when attacking an object. For this you need a sea of ​​fire.

57 mm is suitable for its versatility. I wrote above. 3-7,62 create a high density of fire, 14 mm works on the part of armored vehicles and field shelters, when the use of 5 mm is excessive.

The fragmentation grenade, which still needs to be created, will replace both 82 mm and 40 mm AG, and will allow its infantry to approach the object (fuck use 100 mm, if we only made the transfer of artillery fire - safe removal).
Well, where high ballistics of 57 mm are needed, an excellent system.

And firing at longer distances (when BMPT functions are not needed, will carry out 125 mm guns of this unit.

[washi]

As I understand it, the article was submitted for a normal discussion of the real, maybe, technology.
I read the comments.
Most, apparently, did not sit in the tank at all.
Let's get serious.
To begin with, I would like to know where and how. Do the authors of this want to apply this?
And then you can discuss the rest.

[badger1974]

and if you didn’t sit at the nuclear button, is it also unnecessary to know about strategic missiles and the specifics of their use? do not fool around
the use of BMPT in the name, but here's how to help tanks have been known for a long time - these are mobile ATGMs, that's where we have to dance

[marshes]

In Kazakhstan, too, they puzzled for a long time where the existing BMPTs could be used, and they found application: As of November 2012, BMPTs were adopted only in the Republic of Kazakhstan. The Army of Kazakhstan sees the use of BMPTs that have been adopted as an anti-tank unit commander’s machine: one BMPT armed with 9M120-1 (9M120-1F) missiles, for three 9P149 SPTRK-Sturm-S combat vehicles armed with 9M114 Sturm missiles ( 9M114F) and “Attack” 9M120 (9M120F) and 9M120-1 (9M120-1F). As such, BMPTs were demonstrated at a military parade on May 7, 2013 at the Otar training ground [1], while, after completing four launches of 9M120-1 anti-tank guided missiles with BMPT No. 501 and 503, BMPT capabilities were demonstrated to perform BMP 9P149 combat security functions fire of small arms.
By the way, BMPT-72 is already without AGS.

[bww]

Rare x-nya

[chenia]

Quote: Vasya

To begin with, I would like to know where and how. Do the authors of this want to apply this?
And then you can discuss the rest.

Quote: marshes

The army of Kazakhstan sees the use of BMPTs adopted as the machine of the commander of an anti-tank unit:

Quote: chenia

BMPT was created in Soviet times, and the purpose in its name.

And one does not need to invent any other functions, all in the name. The need for such a technique arose a long time ago. Another thing is that the project presented by the author is far from perfect and torn off from the tactical background.
First of all, the PMPT is obliged not to allow the “trenches” with anti-tank equipment to raise their heads, as well as to suppress other enemy anti-tank equipment (except tanks, and how it will turn out) and ensure that the tank unit performs the task.
And let the infantry deal with heavy infantry fighting vehicles, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers and their own weapons complex.

[badger1974]

the fact that it is "cut off from the tactical background" is itself to the point, but at the expense of supporting tanks, this is a light and maneuverable ATGM and ZRAK technique, such an adoroblo as BMPT arose only with us, and they can only help tanks by acting like tanks in the worst security, but in functionality it is much worse, since there are "trench rascals", "street rascals" and "storeyed", there are even "civilian rascals", all these rascals attack from different directions and the firing sector of the entire denomination of any BMPT only in a certain sector, here they are, so that a normal BMPT should be lighter, more mobile, redundant suspension (multi-axle), be sure to overcome water obstacles, and most importantly, have a much greater reaction than the tank itself

[svp67]

Quote: chenia

First of all, the PMPT is obliged not to allow the “trenches” with anti-tank equipment to raise their heads, as well as to suppress other enemy anti-tank equipment (except tanks, and how it will turn out) and ensure that the tank unit performs the task.

And until these machines "teach" how to fight an air enemy, in the near zone (up to 10 km in range and 4 km in height), they are "one-sided"

[dustycat]

Quote: chenia

First of all, the PMPT is obliged not to give the opportunity to "trenches" with anti-tank equipment to raise their heads

Why should the Javelin’s calculation raise its head ?!
Dropped out of hiding, pressed in the air and legs in his hands.
And then let BMPT or Carnations, or some other "botany" plow the launch site - scratch the heels.

[chenia]

Quote: chenia

And don’t have to come up with a PMPT

Confused, BMPT naturally.

[badger1974]

but don’t bother, who in the subject understands what is your opinion about the support of tanks?

[DesToeR]

An expensive machine will work. I do not understand why already 2 57mm guns? One is enough, and instead of the second one, a 12,7mm four-barreled machine gun is better, like they were mounted on Mi-24 helicopters or 14,5mm. The machine will obviously lack cheap, but powerful and long-range weapons against infantry and unarmored vehicles. About the replenishment of ammunition by the commander’s forces, it’s strange like that. He has such a lot of worries in such a machine: constant monitoring of the enemy’s detection tools (and there should be a lot of them), giving the gunner a target designation and the sequence of the defeat, plus the choice of the type of weapon to hit the target. The crew of two people for servicing such a variety of weapons is clearly overloaded. By the way, I did not understand from the concept whether it is possible to change the type of ammunition used for the 57 mm gun without the commander’s participation, because the ammunition is not automated. I consider the presence of NURS unnecessary, but a flamethrower in the city would be useful.
On the website btvt.narod.ru there is an interesting article "RESEARCH OF THE POSSIBILITY OF INCREASING THE FIRE POWER OF BMP" from 1991. According to the results of the analysis, the weapon complex was recognized as optimal, consisting of a 30mm AP, 40mm AG and an ATGM complex. Perhaps the 57mm cannon will be better in modern times, but its advantages over the 30mm are mainly when firing shells with remote detonation.

[voliador]

Reduce the caliber to 45 mm and add a 12.7 mm machine gun.

[moskal68]

No, well, beautiful pictures. It’s immediately obvious - we learned how to make them.

[chenia]

Quote: badger1974

What is your opinion on tank support?

First, the BMPT is organizationally part of the tank units. In the TVzvod TP - 2 tanks, 1 BMPT, in the TV MSP- 3 tanks, 2 BTPTs (basically these guys are tearing ahead of time. They are busy. Defending the enemy), From here in the companies of the TP - 6 tanks and 4 BMPTs, in the SMEs - 9 tanks and 7 BMPT (in the west, TV -5 tanks are the norm). And BMPT (as from here video command vehicle).

The second - BMPT is created on the basis of object 787, but in the center of the spark 57 mm from 7,62, on the side arms 14,5 mm from 7,62, and still on the independent turret of the commander -7,62 mm (for target designation, perhaps 12,7 mm) ATGM through the hatch. The tower is full-sized, with such an instrument it is possible to arrange dances with a button accordion (most importantly there is no stockade), power in the nose, then control and combat. Hatches above the mechanical water, in the floor and stern (main). CT crew, mech.water, gunner and loader (with so many systems without it in any way), total 4 people.

Application - (classic offensive) is in the gap (already increased) interval between tanks, 50-70 m behind them (ledge). It is necessary to take into account the transfer of fire - the towers of security removal - 200 m tanks, 400 m chain. When approaching the object of attack, the infantry will be 300 meters from the first trench of the enemy (it’s far and difficult to cover tanks).
And here the BMPT begins to work (before that the artillery sneezed there), the main thing is not to let the trench minions raise their heads. You yourself know that a blind tank is more frightening in its appearance than in its machine gun. At the same time, it is impossible to bombard an object over 100mm (and in front of the nose and not really shoot), you’ll scare your infantry. Well, as it approaches, they switch to 40 mm grenades, well, and there the hand grenades are used - well, these are already infantry problems (the main thing was brought to the object). Well, continue to work against armored groups and fire ambushes.
We must take into account the BMPT weapon complex more flexible than the tank and allows you to hit almost everything possible, and in cooperation with the tank (BMPT and the machine of the commanders of tank units) all the targets that are in the enemy’s arsenal. At the same time, separation from his infantry is not so critical.

The battle in the depths of the enemy’s defense is already of tank units and formations, where there is sometimes a shortage of motorized rifles, having a high density of fire, to play their role (by the way, certain properties of 57 mm are important there as air defense weapons. Well, of course, additional).
Well, about the battle in the mountains and the city (with large vertical angles), think for yourself.

[badger1974]

it’s well said, but in reality the crew of this BMVT is overloaded with weapons, especially operating in a particular sector, not having the ability to react quickly than a tank, and if they put a gusli on a mine, no one canceled the mines, and 4-axle chassis sometimes withstand mine a curse, and have the ability to crawl into cover,
the Afghan brother told me that when the PECs were given to the passage, the mood fell sharply, Betra, they had iron shafts, and the radio operator was cared for as much as they could to get the turntable (call), therefore they drove on the armor and the radio operator sat obscured bodies, the radio operator was an angel

[gallville]

Quote: chenia

in SMEs - 9 tanks and 7 BMPTs (in the west, TV -5 tanks are normal). And BMPT (as from here video command vehicle).

1. In MSP - a battalion of tanks. There are 10 cars in the company.
2. Where did you find SMEs in the Russian Federation?

Quote: chenia

The second - BMPT is created on the basis of object 787, but in the center of the spark 57 mm from 7,62, on the side arms 14,5 mm from 7,62, and still on the independent turret of the commander -7,62 mm (for target designation, perhaps 12,7 mm) ATGM through the hatch.

Can you imagine the cruiser Aurora?

Quote: chenia

Well, about the battle in the mountains

How will this mastodon go up?)) There the engine for 2 thousand horses will be there. And given our traditional supply weaknesses, this miracle is buried at the nearest checkpoint.

[Prapor-527]

+ Such projects force designers to think "out of the box" ...

[badger1974]

if the designers rummaged about in a military review, they scratched a lot of turnips, Ilyushin forced himself to listen to the opinions of practitioners of his product

[_KM_]

57 mm strange caliber. Neither fragmentation nor explosive action.

[badger1974]

it’s strange that you didn’t notice the assorted class at face value, you just need to imagine how the gunner will go to advanced training courses, I’m keeping the commander silent, the Charter introduces corrections, the partisans’s charter is simple, and the regular troops’s charter requires respect, the partisans don’t have regular troops, To this, gupps are formed from the presence of combat means and are not part of the saved ones, there is no report, but here !!!!! 65 tons can be lost in seconds

[Victor Wolz]

Likely, the BMPT should be modular, where different weapons can be used on one base, anti-aircraft missiles are useless for assault groups, a howitzer, flamethrower, mortar, ags and 14,5 mm machine guns are more useful there. To carry lead and shrapnel fire and smoke the enemy from secluded places. And for motorized rifle units, the main danger is air.

[badger1974]

you are victor if you use your PC. AKM and a couple of Bumblebees and a "seven" with all the necessary BC to this face value and eat at least 200 kg as an engine, so don't build a station wagon from yourself, there is a specialization, BMPT is a dead-end branch of development in armored vehicles, in other words, a "dead" child of the military-industrial complex the former USSR, no need to go to the embezzlers-good advice

[gallville]

Quote: badger1974

you are victor if you use your PC. AKM and a couple of Bumblebees and a "seven" with all the necessary BC to this denomination and eat like an engine - at least 200 kg, so don't build a wagon from yourself, there is a specialization

From the part Victor is right.
Unification of ptur launchers is a useful thing. Already now, birds can carry the thermobaric part (bumblebee).
It remains to add air. Target designation for air is still the same, its own suo (which develops as a mass carrier in BMPs) or data obtained from ASUV which it has not been able to give birth to since the Soviet Union.
ASUV is an automated command and control system.
Of course, BMPT is a stillborn child. Instead of giving birth to a heavy BMP, they gave birth to a BMPT - a mixture of a bulldog with a rhino of an oh tank and a BMP.
Put the remote ZPU to the tank, and the BMP protection against RPGs as it should be in the course of the evolution of the BTT, this brainchild will disappear as a terminator. And if you also remove the misunderstanding with the Sleigh on MTLB and give at least non or cloves (the chassis is then easier from MTLB), then this device will cause only laughter.

[badger1974]

Victor doesn’t have a fraction of what you need to have with you, REACTION, but it is achieved by automatically working with the weapons that have been entrusted, and that’s it,

[Victor Wolz]

That is, subconsciously, we want to create something like a type with an armament more powerful than 1 machine gun?

[badger1974]

no, you need to be aware of how you can help a tank, only with technology that is faster in reaction, vertically firing ATGMs in a technology tower is the key to supporting not only tanks, count the seconds, the main caliber and the commander and gunner can use the code

[chenia]

Quote: gallville

1. In MSP - a battalion of tanks. There are 10 cars in the company.

It is necessary to read carefully - in the context of the conversation about the Tank Company in TP, and SMEs (well, you wanted to show your knowledge of the subject And ... .. In the TRMS of SMEs there are not 10 tanks, but 13 (at least until 1991).

Quote: gallville

2. Where did you find SMEs in the Russian Federation?

If you give an organization to SMEs (in the new team structure), I might see.
The brigade’s administration repeats the division’s management (well, divisions instead of divisions) and are almost the same in terms of rank of combat and rear support units.
Instead of divisions of the brigade, and the places of permanent deployment are unchanged. So, SMEs are deployed on the site of the former SME.
The question is, what about the park economy, reduced to the battalion? Excessive boxes destroyed or filled with something? So that brigade, maybe just a shrunken division (instead of a frame).

Quote: gallville

Can you imagine the cruiser Aurora?

Object 787 has already been created (and the tower, not the module), and what to cram 57 mm complexity? And that the poor commander of the car and the gunner in three aiming marks get confused? And BMPT had to be created yesterday. Here, unfortunately, people are more with corporal thinking or computer fighters.

Quote: gallville

How will this mastodon rise?

And how is our TB 30 Guards MSP lane in Naryn, I do not understand (pass 3600 m), and nothing (march 320 km)? Probably because you have not been heard.
I didn’t say that tank divisions would fight in the mountains, but small units could certainly. And there is no need to argue with me, I served in the highlands.

[gallville]

Quote: chenia

not 10 tanks, but 13 (at least until 1991).

Yes, 13 is to blame.

Quote: chenia

So, SMEs are deployed on the site of the former SME.

As I understand it, the team in place of the SME.

Quote: chenia

The question is, what about the park economy, reduced to the battalion? Excessive boxes destroyed or filled with something?

Essentially completed. On the other hand, the former places of deployment of SMEs will not be sad ....

Quote: chenia

, and what to cram 57 mm complexity?

So yes. 57mm modules. proposed by the petrel about 2.5-4 tons. So count 4 tons - 57mm. + 2 kWh still a kilo 100 they also need to be booked and even rotary mechanisms. Now we add the base tower there and the new DZ body kit - modern. The machine will pull under 60 tons if not under 70.
Well, look at the misunderstanding from the UVZ 2-30mm gun and weight more than 40 tons. So they weigh these guns of 100 kg., Kpvt already half the mass.
I don’t understand why they are.

Quote: chenia

And how is our TB 30 Guards MSP lane in Naryn, I do not understand (pass 3600 m), and nothing (march 320 km)? Probably because you have not been heard.

Probably because the tanks were lighter than 60-70 tons.

Quote: chenia

in SMEs - 9 tanks and 7 BMPTs (in the west, TV -5 tanks are normal)

Swollen staff is obtained. TB (4 companies, as it seems now in the same team understand them with their staffs) 36 tanks and 28 bmp instead of 41 tanks. Even then it is easier to give a company to BMPT.
Or in the companies 3 platoons on tanks 1 per bmpt.
In general, these speculations emerge in the concept of a lone TB, but I still want to look at tanks interacting with infantry.

[the47th]

62 tons is too much, it will be necessary to redo all the support for a new tank and BMPT, the military will not do it.

[Victor Wolz]

Do you think that heavy bmp and bmpt is a car for motorized rifles? No, and again no, we need to create a stormtrooper brigade, they must storm the fortified areas and cities, and motorized riflemen are the environment and a quick strike on the flanks. But in the brigade of attack aircraft, many tanks are not needed, but heavy armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles are of the type of type and an armored howitzer with BMPT is what is needed. And for motorized rifles BMP-3 and BTR Rostock are excellent options in our conditions where there are many rivers of lakes and off-road.

[gallville]

Quote: Victor Wolz

but heavy armored personnel carriers, bmp, then the type of intention and armored howitzer with bmpt is what you need.

BMPT there will be superfluous. Honestly. BMP armaments are enough with the head all the more if it is heavy, and the remote zpu of the tank is also a good thing, and if you also change the Sled to Nona (not everything, everything should not be something conditionally light sled and light 80 mm) yes with good Suo is generally a fairy tale. BMPT will be like a fifth leg.

Quote: Victor Wolz

heavy bmp and bmpt is a car for motorized rifle? No and no again, you need to create a stormtrooper brigade,

How true is this wealth in the vast expanses of the endless homeland to ride?))

[Victor Wolz]

Is it true that this wealth should be rolled around the vast expanses of the homeland?)) And there shouldn’t be a lot of these brigades enough to start with two maybe increase to five, respectively, you don’t need a lot of equipment 700 units with a reserve enough for two brigades. And one training complex with a training ground where they would go to train in turn. The training should be at the dshb level, you can even remove the landing or prepare only one platoon. And infantry weapons should be appropriate to the war in the city.

[karavay1982]

Please explain to me what kind of “beast” this tank support combat vehicle is.
Please explain how it turns out that now everyone wants to support the tank.
They list the threats - grenade launchers, including those holed up on the upper floors AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS - LIKE IMPACT HELICOPTERS. Damn, maybe you can come up with another threat - an aircraft carrier.
A hypothetical situation - you need to capture a city, terrible terrorists have entrenched themselves in it - to simplify it, “alien city”.
So this is the kind of military leader who will send tanks there. Our domestic ones don’t count.
What a normal commander will do is conduct reconnaissance with all available means and forces to identify the number of the enemy, his weapons, and their location.
What a smart commander will do next is call in aviation or artillery. Yes, if the city is “foreign,” then multiple launch rocket systems can be used. Imagine what kind of destruction there will be in the city.
Then again reconnaissance - if a lot of things survived - again an air raid or shelling... and so on several times. and don’t tell me about moving the enemy and some super deep pillboxes.
And then the systematic occupation of the city begins - infantry and tanks. and if you need to add aviation and artillery.
But all the delights that are called a tank support vehicle look like they are simply trying to change the TANK’s armament and its layout.
But it remains a TANK - at least take the weight.
And most likely we are simply returning to the classification that was in the 3-50s of the last century - medium, heavy. but only infantry can be supported on the battlefield due to the fact that this is the most vulnerable branch of the army.

[nmaxxen]

One 57 mm is quite enough for an BMPT.
No need for a double-barreled shotgun.