Military Review

Manual machine gun M249 in the role of automatic weapons separation. It is time for change

46



Ray Grandi is a 5 grade warrant officer who has served forty years in the rifle divisions of the USCM, a participant in the Vietnam War.

“Nine marines died today in battle, six of them in paddy checks right in front of the fortifications of the enemy. Their bodies were found compressing the M16 in a semi-disassembled state with cartridges stuck in the chamber. There were traces of gunpowder in the bullet holes on the heads. ” The commander of the company "N", 3 bmp / ​​5 PMP. Operation Swift 4-15 September 1967, Vietnam.

And M249 - automatic weapon offices (SAW), has the potential to create equally tragic consequences? This tragedy was brought about by the circumstances that were themselves generated by the vicious system of tests and adoption. What will it cost to draw the attention of our high command to the fact that the M249 SAW has serious problems with the performance of the functions of an automatic rifle (AR)? History will repeat? I believe, and many gunsmiths of the units agree with me that the M249, having a good potential in the role of a light general-purpose machine gun (LMG), very poorly copes with the role of personal weapons. In the following text, I will try to highlight the characteristics of the M249, which make it difficult to find in combat formations.

М249 SAW survived its estimated lifetime in the troops. The M249 of our infantry battalions work unsatisfactory, if we consider the ratio of the number of shots to the number of delays. In addition to the SAW modernization program in service, a four million additional purchases program was adopted at 2001 fiscal year. Based on the facts below and the well-known depressing experience, I urge the ILC command to conduct in-depth research to determine how reasonable it is to procure new models of such a poorly-shown model. It is necessary to conduct comparative tests of the M249 and the appropriate real AR in the interests of the amphibious MP groups.

The weight of the M249 (less than 10 kg with a two-wrap duct), which allowed it to be classified as AR (personal weapon serviced by one marines), was achieved by reducing the reliability in comparison with the M240G single machine gun or the heavy M2 machine gun. After being put into service in 1984, the M249 was praised as an analogue of the machine gun, which would give a noticeable increase in the firepower of the infantry unit. However, for five years of operation, a modernization program was required. The upgrade consisted of adding a hydraulic buffer to the butt in order to reduce vibration (increased accuracy) and the introduction of a second barrel into the kit. This first upgrade has already indicated that the tests for adoption were insufficient to call the M249 a full-fledged personal weapon.

Meanwhile, М16А2 replaced М16А1 as the main combat rifle of the KMP. Unlike М16А1, which had both a self-loading and automatic mode, the М16А2 has only self-loading and fixed three modes. The adoption of the M16X2 meant that the squadron was deprived of the shooter with automatic weapons. Thus, the core of the fire power of the link (fire team) floated away into history textbooks. Then KMP attacked the M249, thinking that it will be a new AR. Below I will show that it was the wrong choice.

Ammunition

Consider the problems arising from the fact that the structure of the link uses weapons with ammunition that have different nomenclature codes MO. We know that the M249 shoots the M855 (A064) supplied in tapes, and the M16X2 shoots with the standard M855 (A059). These differences in ammunition can lead to unnecessary friction in the conduct of the battle and in relations within the rifle squad. With different ammunition inside the link, the exchange of ammunition between the shooter with an automatic weapon (automatic rifleman) and other arrows at best is complicated. For example, if the shooter runs out of ammo, he will have to pick out the cartridges from SAW tapes. This is a very time-consuming process. In the opposite case, when the gunner SAW ran out of ammunition, he would have to insert the shops from the rifle. The inability to accept stores from the M16 normally is the main problem of the M249 system. I quote the Charter of the Marine Corps Warfighting Publication 3-15.1, Machine Guns and Machine Guns Gunnery: “As an emergency measure in SAW, you can use 20- and 30-cartridge shops, but this increases the likelihood of delays when shooting.”

Is this an acceptable characteristic of the weapon used in close contact with the enemy, around which the link is built? I think not.
Problems with the use of two types of ammunition in the course of the chaos on the battlefield arise from shooters and at the rear men. Since both nomenclature codes are packed in identical containers, it is easy to distinguish between them during the day, but at night this causes confusion. For example, imagine yourself in the role of commander of a rifle squad. Your squad started the attack as part of eight marines, and now, after the loss, you have only five fighters. You drove the enemy all day. Sunset is approaching, the unit is ordered to stop and dig in. Because of the loss you have only one M249. You desperately need two things: ammunition and water. Around the mess. Since stocks are small, ammunition is trying as quickly as possible to drag on the position. Just after sunset, the Marine collapses into your trench and hurls a box of 5,56 cartridges. He thinks that these are cartridges in stores. By law, Murphy will be the cartridges in the tapes.

The advantage of adopting genuine AR in the department will be the huge savings of money on ammunition that can be redirected to other important matters. Now KMP purchases 249 boxes with single tracer for four conventional cartridges (А5,56), 064 in tapes without tracer (А5,56) and idle 062 (А5,56) for М075. Replacing SAW with a normal AR will destroy these three additional item codes, which will reduce costs and at the same time significantly increase the level of fire training of shooters. Look at the experiment schedule. Only after a five-minute briefing did the Marines hit the targets from Colt AR perfectly well (created on the basis of the M16).

Manual machine gun M249 in the role of automatic weapons separation. It is time for change


KMP can learn from the Soviet Army, which in the early eighties decided to get rid of the 7,62 mm RPD with tape power in its rifle platoons and replace them with the Soviet AR RPK. The PKK is the same AK rifle with a longer and heavier barrel, a bipod attached to the barrel, a slightly modified butt (for firing automatic fire from a prone position) and a sector magazine of increased capacity. The Soviet people understood the problems that arose in the power-supply compartment, and got rid of them, returning to the basic concept of an automatic rifle. If you do not understand why they did this, contact any infantryman, a war veteran. His answer would be something like this: “Tapes are too much weight and too much trouble. That's why".

The Soviets thought of this and made the right conclusion. I am afraid that we will need to incur senseless losses in various situations, so that it can be understood that the light machine gun is not suitable as an automatic rifle.

Spare trunk

Why is a spare trunk included in the kit? If you figure it out a bit, then quickly find out that the original M249 was taken into service with a single barrel. Then why did the CMP add another barrel? At first, the M249 barrels were supplied with gas controllers that had two installations. Theoretically, the shooter, noting that the pollution leads to a slowdown in the recharge cycle, could switch the gas control to a larger value and continue to use weapons. The normal setting of the gas regulator is 700 shots per minute, the greater the value 1000 shots per minute. Unfortunately, the marines did not receive sufficient training and immediately put on 1000, which led to increased wear and destruction of the trunks. Instead of starting to properly prepare the shooters, they decided to correct the problem by giving a spare barrel.

Fire Modes

Understanding the SAW fire modes will confirm that a spare barrel is not needed to use SAW as an AR. The frequent fire from SAW for a long time - 85 shots per minute. Rapid fire - 200 shots per minute with a barrel change every two minutes. Show me a Marine who can move and fire in bursts of 3-5 shots at a rate of more than 85 shots per minute. This will be the image of a Marine, who misses targets and spends precious ammunition in vain. In short, the ILC in vain added a spare trunk - it is not needed.

Let's take a closer look at the idea of ​​a spare trunk. When does the shooter change trunks? In attack? It is absurd to think that this is possible. Change barrels in defense? During the production of a solid barrage, probably? The second problem with the spare barrel stems from the fact that it is impossible to establish a spare barrel uniformly with the first one on the horizon. Pillar installations are made on the basis of the shooting data of the main barrel. No two trunks can be machined with such precision as to give exactly the same trajectory. As a result, a spare trunk is brought to normal combat by adjusting the front sight with a wrench vertically. In the horizontal plane, you cannot move the middle point of impact. If you do not fit in .5 mil (0,5 thousandth) per 36 yards (~ 33 m), then it will be 6 inches (152 mm) per 300 yards (~ 274 m). The US Army Charter "Field Manual 23-14, M249 Light Machine Gun in the Automatic Rifle Role" states: "When used as a machine gun, it is installed on a tripod machine, adjustable horizontally and vertically, and supplied with a spare barrel." This problem is further complicated by the semi-moving (semifixed) nest of flies on the M249 trunks. In the photos (not in the archive) you can see two trunks nearby. Notice that the trunk “A” on the right has a base of the front sight shifted to the right, and the trunk “B” is displaced to the left. This non-central location of the base of the flies caused a noticeable deviation of holes. Holes marked “A” are shots from the barrel “A”, and “B” are shots from the barrel “B”. Marked aiming point is located in the middle.

KMP should overestimate the policy of issuing a spare trunk for the M249. If it is decided to leave the spare trunk in the kit, then all trunks should be inspected to ensure that the bases of the flies are properly centered. A spare barrel is an unnecessary burden for an already overloaded marine. In the role of automatic weapons separation of the spare barrel is not needed.

I am sure that the M249 apologists are fixated on the capabilities of two hundred-cartridge tapes. I believe that this detail prevents them from seeing a large number of M249 shortcomings in the role of AR. Carrying a large amount of ammunition is not an end in itself for us, we need to hit the enemy with the ammunition we have with us. Here is a quote from the book “My rifle, the faith of the American marine” by Major General KMP retired William H. Riperthus: “We, my rifle and I, know that this war is not counted for the number of shots, not the noise of shots and do not smoke from shots. We know that hits are counted. We will fall.

Recent comparative field tests of the M249 and the Colt AR at the KMP Preparatory for Combat Preparatory Center showed that the riflemen (automatic riflemen) hit more targets from the Colt AR with less ammunition consumption than from the M249. Experienced gunners M249 SAW on the 36 meter sighting shooting range and the 103 shooting range designed for automatic shooting were used for the tests. During the tests, it turned out that marines successfully hit emerging targets from the Colt AR. At the shooting range for automatic shooting, the Marines, on average, missed lifting one or two targets while reloading the Colt AR. SAW gunners on average missed lifting five targets during reloading. All marines who participated in the tests, in the end, preferred the Colt AR, rather than the M249 SAW. Shouldn't we listen to these marines? The numbers speak for themselves.

We need to recognize that SAW is an extremely difficult weapon to master. This is not something you can take and immediately apply successfully. To become a skillful shooter with SAW (automatic rifleman), it takes a long training process. It can be expected that with losses the skilled arrows will end. Would it not be wiser to adopt an automatic weapon that will have characteristics similar to another link weapon? CMP is known for its ability to improvise and think unconventionally. Regarding SAW, however, we seem ready to return to what it was before.

My assessment of the M249 SAW is based on my own field experience. How many times have I seen the SAW shooter forced to stop the attack to eliminate the delay! The nightmare begins after the feed tray lid rises to determine the cause of the delay. Often the tape slips out of the tray and falls into the box. The marine is in a desperate situation. In addition to finding out the reasons for the delay, he needs to decide what to do with the tape. Do I need to shake this tape out of the box, or is it better to look for a new box? All this time he is not involved in the battle. His weapon does not work, he does not shoot at the enemy and can not protect himself. His unit continues to attack, and the fire cover, which he must provide, is absent. In such a situation, the shooter could at least protect himself, the ILC should equip the shooter with the SAW with an МХNUMX pistol, as they arm with the М9 machine gunners.

I do not see the logic in the continuation of saving the M249 system. As a general purpose LMG light machine gun, it has its merits. However, in the role of AR, this is a separation problem. This is too heavy a weapon. It violates the interchangeability of the ammunition link, does not work very well with the stores, accurately shoots only from a bipod and is usually transferred to the “three position” (cartridges on the supply tray, the bolt in the front position, the chamber, empty, the fuse removed) because we are not sure about this system.

These problems are complicated by the fact that these weapons are still very difficult to master. Imagine the advantages of a situation where weapons with similar characteristics, with the same ammunition, are used in the rifle department. Imagine the benefits of standardization M4, M16A2 and Colt AR. Every marine, male or female, it does not matter, gets acquainted with the Colt M16A2 on KMB. Having received a Colt AR, in which the device is the same as that of the M16А2, it is easily re-qualified from the arrow to the automatic rifleman.

Another issue to consider is optics. KMP switches to riflescopes on a rifle and SAW. It will be two different optical sights - rifle for M16A2 and machine gun for SAW. If SAW remains in service, the KMP will be forced to purchase two different sights for each link. Replacing SAW with Colt AR, we get one type of procurement, reporting, repair and training instead of two.

Recently, I was asked to make a short report in the group of advisers on infantry actions (IOAG), consisting of acting and retired regimental commanders, on the topic of the possibility of replacing a light machine gun (LMG M249) with an automatic weapon (rifle). As a result, the group recommended that the commander of the CMP replace the M249 SAW with the AR. It is clear that the most convenient and best choice in this case is the Colt AR. If our average SAW proficiency skills are insufficient even in ground components, then what about other parts of amphibious tactical groups where marines do not deal with these weapons on an ongoing basis? You can state that you need to spend more ammunition to improve training. You can remove the spare barrel, but, in any case, it will be a light machine gun as an automatic rifle, and in this role it will be the Achilles heel of the rifle squad.

However, the bets have already been made. The decision to replace the old M249, which are in service with infantry battalions, with new ones is a reality. Have we lost the chance to correct the situation? I would recommend to suspend further purchases of new M249. Why should we continue to operate a system that does not meet the requirements for an automatic rifleman weapon? I am convinced that the CMP should conduct comparative tests of the M249 SAW with the corresponding AKMoid, as the Soviet Army did. Do we really want the light machine gun to work as an AR? Cushion strategists say I value SAW too hard. But experience confirms my grades.

Let's not let the souls of the dead remind us that if we made the necessary decision and replaced the M249 SAW, we would be more successful and save their lives. М249 continues to be a problem of small office.
Originator:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/m249-light-machinegun-automatic-rifle-role
46 comments
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  1. mango68
    mango68 30 January 2014 09: 19
    +3
    Google Translate?
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 30 January 2014 13: 43
      0
      no, google would have screwed nonsense even more abruptly.
  2. La-5
    La-5 30 January 2014 09: 23
    +6
    It is very bad that they abandoned the RPD, thereby depriving the detachment of normal fire support, and the PKK does not dare to call the machine gun the language.
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 30 January 2014 09: 37
      +4
      The most interesting thing is that in the article, the author offers a return in the link (gender of the department) to the analogue of the PKK
    2. Corsair
      Corsair 30 January 2014 09: 47
      +6
      Quote: La-5
      It is very bad that they abandoned the RPD

      DS Arms gunsmiths launched the RPD v.2.0 or RPD-Carbine project. The “second version” of the Degtyarev machine gun implied a number of design changes that were designed to modernize the appearance and functionality of the old machine gun. The receiver and all its insides remained the same - the chosen market orientation did not affect the mechanics in any way. But the native RPD barrel was replaced by a new one. RPD v.2.0 comes with a shorter barrel than the original. Also, the barrel of the "Second version" has a longitudinal ribbing on the outer surface. It simultaneously improves cooling and facilitates the design with the same firing parameters. In addition, RPD-Carbine finally got a full flame arrester.

      Where big changes have undergone an external "body kit" weapons. So, instead of the standard wooden stock and pistol grip, the RPD v. 2.0 is equipped with plastic ones. In this case, the butt is made telescopic and similar to those that are installed on a number of modern automatic rifles. Another wooden part of the original Degtyarev light machine gun - forend - gave way to a modern aluminum assembly. According to the latest trends in weaponry, the forend is equipped with two Picatinny rails. By default, a collimator sight (on top) and a “tactical” handle with an integrated bipod are installed on the slats. It is worth paying attention to changing the location for the sight. On the original RPD, an open sight was located on the front of the receiver cover. For use on quick-fire weapons designed to literally water the enemy with bullets, this was normal. The lid of the receiver while firing was constantly moving and made it difficult to aim fire, which, however, was offset by the expansion of bullets. For self-loading weapons sold in market conditions, this was unacceptable. Therefore, the guys from DS Arms moved the sight from the receiver to the forend. Yes, due to the transfer and reduction of the barrel length, the length of the sighting line was reduced when using an open sight. However, the collimator sighting device from such a transfer did not impair its quality. As for the front handle, this is not only a tribute to fashion in recent years. It simultaneously performs two functions. When shooting with hands, it is more convenient for the shooter to hold the RPD-Carbine, and if necessary, he can remove the folding bipod from the middle of the handle. A kind of universalization "body kit" for shooting from different positions. Finally, DS Arms made the ammunition of a machine-gun self-loading rifle a little more convenient. The permanent tape on the 100 RPD v.2.0 cartridges is not stored in a metal or plastic container, but in a bag of a special shape sewn from synthetic fabric. In addition to gaining weight, it reduced the noise produced by the tape.

      According to the results of all changes, mainly external, the most modern, as it is called, assault weapons came out of the good old RPD.
      http://go-url.ru/dmhj
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 30 January 2014 10: 54
        +15
        And a little bit of history ...

        Units of the American special forces SOG used an extremely interesting custom in Vietnam.
        Oddly enough, a Soviet RPD machine gun was used for this. Customization consisted in shortening the length of the barrel, or even in a simple "sawed off". Shortening the barrel also made the machine gun lighter, making it maneuverable for jungle warfare.
        After all, the task was simple: crush the enemy with a flurry of fire. To this was added the merits of the ammunition: the Soviet cartridge 7,62x39 mm M43 the enemy had in huge quantities, so it was easy to do with trophies. After all, the special forces in the sorties on the rear did not drop cartridges from the plane.
        According to the opinions of the soldiers themselves, the RPD, in addition to the slaughter, also possessed such high accuracy that "you could knock out your own initials."http://go-url.ru/dmhj

        As we see, the Americans without their NORMAL light machine gun did not disdain the use of RPD ...
        1. Mister X
          Mister X 30 January 2014 14: 37
          +3
          Found a couple of photos.
          Apparently from the same source. wink



        2. vanaheym
          vanaheym 3 February 2014 16: 18
          0
          Actually, SOG made excellent use of this:
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. bunta
      bunta 30 January 2014 09: 52
      +3
      The ILC can learn from the Soviet Army, which in the early eighties decided to get rid of the 7,62 mm RPD with tape power in its rifle platoons and replace them with the Soviet AR PKK. RPK - this is the same AK rifle with a longer and heavier barrel, bipods attached to the barrel, a slightly modified butt (for automatic fire from a prone position) and a sector store of increased capacity. Soviet people understood the problems encountered in the power supply unit and got rid of them, returning to the basic concept of an automatic rifle. If you do not understand why they did this, contact any foot soldier, a war veteran. His answer would be something like this: “Tapes are too much weight and too much trouble. That's why".

      The Soviets thought of this and made the right conclusion. I am afraid that we will need to incur senseless losses in various situations, so that it can be understood that the light machine gun is not suitable as an automatic rifle.
    5. avt
      avt 30 January 2014 11: 53
      0
      Quote: La-5
      It’s very bad that they abandoned the RPD, thereby depriving the department of normal fire support,

      With all due respect to the excellent design of the RPD, shooting from it is just a pleasure, I completely agree with the opinion of the amer expressed in the article - ,, The ILC can learn from the Soviet Army, which in the early eighties decided to get rid of the 7,62 mm RPD with belt feed in its rifle platoons and replaced them with the Soviet AR PKK. The RPK is the same AK rifle with a longer and heavier barrel, bipods attached to the barrel, a slightly modified butt (for automatic fire from a prone position) and an increased capacity sector magazine. The Soviet people understood the problems in the belt-fed compartment and got rid of them by returning to the basic concept of an automatic rifle. If you're wondering why they did this, talk to any veteran infantryman. His answer would be something like: “Ribbons are too much weight and too much trouble. That's why"."
      Quote: La-5
      and the PKK call the machine gun the language does not turn.

      mind you, he doesn’t call him a machine gun, but he definitely needs a drum for the PKK - the horn is obviously small. And there is no reason to put a tape less than 7,62x54.
      1. La-5
        La-5 30 January 2014 12: 52
        +2
        The point is not so much in the tape, but in the automation system. RPK shoots with a closed shutter, which increases accuracy (not a very significant factor for a machine gun), but also significantly increase barrel heat. The conclusion of the PKK is not able to effectively suppress infantry (the main purpose of the machine gun) due to rapid overheating, the PKK is a heavy assault rifle.
    6. bunta
      bunta 13 February 2014 01: 08
      0
      Quote: La-5
      It is very bad that they abandoned the RPD, thereby depriving the detachment of normal fire support, and the PKK does not dare to call the machine gun the language.


      "I remembered such a stroke. Before going out to firing from the RPD, soldiers, sergeants and officers very carefully wiped the tape and cartridges from dust. The Degtyarev light machine gun, with all its merits, was very afraid of working in dusty conditions. the dust settling on the sample, on the loaded belt, as in the course of automatic fire, followed by delays.Such a weakness of the machine gun could not be eliminated even during revision, which reduced the reliability of the weapon.
      But, apparently, Degtyarev’s authority greatly prevailed over those who tested, recommended his products for adoption, and they turned a blind eye to a not so small flaw. Meanwhile, with intensive firing, especially in Central Asian conditions, as commanders of units and subunits repeatedly told me, as I myself was convinced more than once, the rubbing parts of the RPD quickly lost their calculated clearances. The dust during friction, like rust, corroded the metal. Particularly vulnerable were the parts that provided power to the machine gun, the operation of automation.
      When designing, developing weapons, the designer does not have the right to delude himself with the results achieved during tests in the factory, at the proving ground, and even in the troops, no matter how much satisfaction they bring. My principle: when developing samples, proceed not from the results of two-week and monthly tests, but to think about how the weapon will behave during long-term operation in the troops, whether it will have enough reliability and survivability when used in rain and snow, in frost and heat, in the mountains and the wilderness, after blows and falls. I have no doubt that I thought about increasing the reliability of the light machine gun and Degtyarev. But he still failed to bring the product to the best condition counting on long-term military operation. And in the fact that in the late 50s - early 60s the RPD was replaced with a more tenacious sample, the factor of its insufficient reliability in dusty conditions played an important role. "

      (c) M.T. Kalashnikov "Notes of the gunsmith designer"
  3. bunta
    bunta 30 January 2014 09: 48
    +1
    Song! The Cardenes read overnight.
  4. MAG
    MAG 30 January 2014 11: 21
    +3
    We had RPK accuracy due to the long barrel is very good, but there were no drum magazines, which would give a longer fire, and with a magazine of 45 it is just AK. And the American thought was correct - we tried to take 2 PCs into the group (the caliber is larger, but the problems are similar), but this is such a "firebrand" with ammunition, in addition to machine gunners and assistants, 2 more fighters had to take ribbons and they were already loaded. One exit was enough and everything returned to the old one.
    1. Svyatoslavovich
      Svyatoslavovich 30 January 2014 11: 56
      +1
      Dear MAG, in my RPK it is equipped with both 40-cartridge sector magazines and a drum magazine (snail) for 75 rounds, and the RPK-45 74-cartridge magazine, is it about it?
      1. MAG
        MAG 30 January 2014 14: 13
        0
        I apologize the thought was already about the drum at 75 from there and the number 5 crept in))
  5. shelva
    shelva 30 January 2014 11: 28
    0
    Interesting thoughts come to these star-striped heads - and here's another one - a spare barrel. Not shot. As if in a machine gun there is nothing more to fail.
  6. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 30 January 2014 12: 16
    +1
    I also liked the PKK. Good, reliable weapons. Even the fact that the store was raising the line of fire from below was not only negative (high visibility of the shooter), but also had a positive effect in the summer — less dust rose. Ammo can be taken more.
  7. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 30 January 2014 12: 43
    +2
    Thanks for the article to the resource and for the comments to colleagues! ..
    Firstly, I have been looking for (waiting) for a detailed review on the M249 resource for a long time. Earlier I heard unpleasant responses of "amerovskie" warriors about M60 (conditionally: "with which only Rambo can fight" ...), then about its predecessor - M240. It turns out that the 249th is not a gift ...
    Secondly, comrade Korsar - special thanks for the material on "RPD version 2"! The question is, if someone had to use a new RPD-ku, share your impressions and thoughts, please! ..
    Thirdly, in my opinion, an old RPK with a drum is also not bad. And as an option, the AKM with the RPK drum also steers (the main thing is not to overheat the barrel - shoot competently). As for possible improvements in body kits, "everything is in our hands."
    1. avt
      avt 30 January 2014 13: 31
      0
      Quote: Scary ensign
      In my opinion, an old RPK with a drum is also not bad.

      And also optics on it and in general - the luxury version.
      1. Monster_Fat
        Monster_Fat 30 January 2014 14: 42
        +7
        Lord, when will all these Rimbaud-style "tuning" lovers calm down. Well, "optics" do not roll on something constantly twitching. RPK is a HAND-HELD MACHINE, not an easel and not a rifle. When they already understand this. Optics in combat conditions-gov ... about. It gets confused and gets dirty and try to wipe it when there is dirt and so forth - fuck ... When there is a fleeting fire resistance, when you have to constantly be in motion, change your position, then there is no time to mess with the optics! But how to aim at her when the weapon is constantly twitching when firing? Optics are good on a rifle-sight-shot, sight-shot, and even then not on every one, or on a stationary, rigidly fixed machine gun, but not on a rapid-fire hand weapon.
        1. avt
          avt 30 January 2014 15: 13
          0
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          . Optics in combat conditions ... oh. It goes astray and becomes dirty and try to wipe it when there is dirt and so on.

          I agree, but it's still good when there is such an opportunity, well, not a sniper one.
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          "Kalash" with a disc will not roll.

          Here, perhaps, only for the cinema - it looks beautiful, nothing more.
          1. Monster_Fat
            Monster_Fat 30 January 2014 15: 21
            +2
            Well, to be fair, it should be noted that disk magazines were used "in full" in the Second World War: "Suomi", PPD, PPSh, "Thomson", etc. and nothing. However, no one canceled the aforementioned shortcomings, and at the end of the war they began to be gradually replaced by carob ones. And as for the optics ... well, you shoot at the enemy, change your position "by rolling, so what? Firstly: the high sight interferes, and secondly: you blasted it during the rollback and - knocked it down or splashed it with mud. And where are you after that from the machine with such a scope you will hit? And, after all, you need to hit the enemy, otherwise he will slap you.
            1. avt
              avt 30 January 2014 16: 28
              +1
              Quote: Monster_Fat
              Well, to be fair, it should be noted that disk magazines were used "in full" in the Second World War: "Suomi", PPD, PPSh, "Thomson", etc. and nothing. However, no one canceled the aforementioned shortcomings, and at the end of the war they began to be gradually replaced by carob ones.

              Well, once again they confirmed their own idea that it was unsuitable to hang a drum on an automatic rifle and a rifle, while the domestic one showed practically the same thing -
              Quote: Monster_Fat
              Firstly: the ergonomics of the weapon is violated - it is really inconvenient to carry it, especially when crawling. Secondly: the drum is unreliable and it really takes a long time to stuff it, and you can't put it in a pouch, in unloading on your belly, again, how to crawl with such a "kenguryatnik".

              You are right about optics on a machine gun, but again, having the ability to put on and off without fail is two big differences. Well, let there be a bracket for fasteners, and let the rest be at the discretion of the user, let him decide whether or not to attach something. A collimator or nightlight, if necessary, or if you really need optics. By the way, I remember when the Angles took the rolls into service on their rifle, the Heckler Koch modified, and the light machine gun on its base was optics, not sniper, but quite a diopter. If after the prescription of years did not confuse. Or is it already immediately set the collimator? It seems not.
              1. Monster_Fat
                Monster_Fat 30 January 2014 17: 45
                +1
                If you mean SA80, then there was an optical SUSAT. On new modifications is also an optical ACOG.
        2. Phaeton
          Phaeton 31 January 2014 02: 34
          -1
          Everyone uses optics, but only you have far-fetched problems about dirt
        3. vanaheym
          vanaheym 4 February 2014 16: 43
          0
          The Chechens used the RPK with optics quite effectively as an ersatz sniper rifle when shooting single.
    2. Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat 30 January 2014 14: 08
      +5
      "Kalash" with a disc will not roll. Have tried. Firstly: the ergonomics of the weapon is violated, it is really inconvenient to carry it, especially when crawling. Secondly: the drum is unreliable and it really takes a long time to stuff it, and you can't put it in a pouch, in unloading on your belly, again, how to crawl with such a "kenguryatnik". Thirdly: it makes no sense - "Kalash" quickly overheats if threshing from it "from the belly". But a PKK with a heavy barrel is another matter, our guys often took it instead of a Kalash, but again, not all, but amateurs. In general, there is no need to invent something for each type of weapon in the unit, its own place and no need to experiment, trying to replace one weapon with another, everything has long been worked out.
    3. Phaeton
      Phaeton 31 January 2014 02: 31
      0
      Che you all mixed up. The predecessor of the M240 is just the M60, and not vice versa
  8. jar.zoom
    jar.zoom 30 January 2014 13: 16
    +3
    But in my opinion, it’s just blah blah blah. The reliability of the M-249 does not suit them, that's the whole fuss because of this. Problems with sharing cartridges from the magazine, he smiled from the tape. cartridges are worn in packs. And the ribbons for the PC are manually equipped, I haven’t seen typing machines in my eyes. And the Americans seem to have forgotten how to equip the shops too. Regarding RPD-RPK. Preferences may be different. RPD more precisely, more powerful, but the cartridges are different, RPK-lighter, cartridges as in the machine gun, but it's still not a machine gun. You need to correctly select the composition of weapons in each concrete Mr. case, and there will be no problems. But the machine gun in the department is still needed. The PC is too heavy IMHO. Will it be an RPD or something else, the MO doesn’t bother with this at all. But their nanotechnology, they’re changing their uniforms, then drones. themselves get out as they can. Due to the fact that the level of training is not high, usually improvisation is not very.
  9. avt
    avt 30 January 2014 13: 29
    +2
    Quote: jar.zoom
    .RPD more precisely, more powerful, but the cartridges are different, RPK-lighter, cartridges as in the machine,

    request It's like different cartridges in the RPK and RPD ??????? I missed something in life and 7,62 x 39 was not common for them !? laughing Or is it about something else? Of course, in view of the withdrawal from service, the RPD under 5,45x39 was not.
    1. Terrible ensign
      Terrible ensign 30 January 2014 13: 43
      +1
      Yeah-yeah ... 7,62 x 39 is a common caliber for RPD and RPK. There was no talk of "74" ...
  10. jar.zoom
    jar.zoom 30 January 2014 14: 23
    +1
    Meant, of course, RPK-74, because in the army the standard cartridge for today is -5,45.
  11. Bogranz
    Bogranz 30 January 2014 14: 37
    +3
    If the PKK is not a machine gun, then what were Bren, Vickers, and RPDs? RPK 7,62 did not have to be tested, and RPK-74 is a good machine: it is light enough, stable and reliable, and the unification of power with the AK-74 ensures effective use in terms of providing ammunition and the possibility of using automatic stores.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 1 February 2014 04: 44
      0
      With all due respect, the PKK is at least some kind of modification, it is not a full-fledged machine gun. This is really only a weighted machine, more adapted to firing in short bursts. The models you listed (although I didn’t understand what kind of Vickers did you mean?) Were originally created exactly like machine guns. They were originally designed to conduct dense continuous fire and have the corresponding design features.
  12. bazilio
    bazilio 30 January 2014 15: 12
    +1
    Mdaaaa. Cool stated ...
    I wonder how to understand "the use of a light machine gun to perform the functions of an automatic rifle"?

    Problems with delays and the difficulty of using magazines from eMki? - send complaints to the manufacturer, finalize the design + improve training of personnel.

    Less accuracy - improve the preparation of the composition.
    The difficulties of using other fighters, well, what can I say, ordinary infantrymen are unlikely to replace a tanker or artilleryman, therefore it is logical to replace tanks and guns with familiar EMCs. The question is, how many machine gunners can effectively use PKM, SVD, AGS, etc. ???

    Ammo Confused? - Make the crates feel different. In the comments to the original article, one Marine suggested an even more elegant solution))) "If the company gunny can't find the right ammo at night get him a damn set of NVG's or a freaking flash light." that in a simplified translation, "if the machine gunner cannot find the ammunition he needs in the dark, give him a night vision device or .... a bath flashlight"
    1. Massik
      Massik 30 January 2014 15: 53
      +1
      juzat
      We forget the Russian language a little, yes ??? Only 8 months, and along with the skill of washing floors and peeling potatoes, I learned to shoot from everything that was stored in the CWC, as well as to perform an incomplete disassembly with the elimination of basic malfunctions.
      Ammunition confusion? - make the boxes different to the touch.
      Loose metal tapes are much easier to handle, you can’t confuse the cartridge with equipment ...
  13. uzer 13
    uzer 13 30 January 2014 20: 31
    +3
    The design of the Colt revolver was based on the principle of minimum details, maximum reliability, due to which it gained well-deserved popularity. The complex designs of American assault rifles and machine guns did not improve their consumer qualities and led to an overall decrease in the reliability of small arms. It also seems to be with the ammunition started problems. The lack of an automatic mode on the rifle is not just that, obviously not at the request of the US military. They are starting to save. It would seem that everything was done right, all the details of the weapon are well processed Ana, made of high quality material, high quality cartridges, barrels, with good geometry, and the end result, the reliability of weapons, is not reached.
  14. uhjpysq1
    uhjpysq1 30 January 2014 21: 21
    -4
    only a tape machine gun! lying to America and reworking Vietnam is proof of that. the tape is not much heavier in weight than the store. 100 bullets without stopping are cooler than 40 or 45. pkm of course it’s heavy. rpd the very thing. rpk either.
  15. tracer
    tracer 30 January 2014 22: 20
    +3
    A soldier in the American army is absolutely right. No need to shake the air with a roar, you have to get in. And they always fall from the fact that it is more convenient easier and more mobile. Standard and compact stores are trouble-free (I'm talking about the AK family), there are new models of increased capacity. But working on the same principle. It is better to issue 4 stores without fail than to catch a wedge on a 15 shot. There are no miracles. And the laws of the physicist confirm this. Rpks I really fell in love at the time. It is more accurate and hits further than just an automatic. You can put optics from a sniper on time (this is by pull) ...
    1. Bogranz
      Bogranz 31 January 2014 01: 24
      0
      Somehow, in his youth, he "hooked" the PSO from the SVD to the AKn-74: utter stupidity .... Isn't it as convenient on the PKK as on the SVD? And what about the difference in the trajectory of the bullet 7,62x39 and 7,62x54? Check the sight for one, strictly defined range? What's the point? Still, it’s probably an occupation to try to improve what the designer has brought to perfection - this is either from misunderstanding (to put it mildly) or from having nothing to do ...
      1. kplayer
        kplayer 15 February 2014 00: 12
        0
        In theory, at a distance of up to 400 m the trajectory of bullets is almost the same, but the ballistics of the 5,45x39 round are capricious (due to the mass and shape of the bullet), that's why this distance is enough. PSO (4x) you shoot at a distance of 100m for the central mark. SVD has only a single mode, and shooting from the AK-74M is more intense and less accurate, i.e. when shooting at a lead, you set it intuitively and there are no problems with the use of optics; the targets that are hit are more clearly visible, without any random shooting. In short, it all depends on experience (and training ground, too), and skills come with it. By the way, it is strange that Izhevsk residents did not try (for 60 years) to extend the barrel on AKs (except for the case with the PKK), say from 415 to 460-480 mm, which would better affect accuracy and accuracy, incl. a slightly smaller return, probably the famous designer himself did not even allow to think about it.
        1. bunta
          bunta 15 February 2014 08: 14
          0
          Accuracy by single 600 meters for

          AK-74 0,24x012 (0,0288)
          PC-74 0.18x0,18 (0,324)

          that is, the AK in terms of area accuracy is even slightly better.

          Shooting in bursts is given for the supine position and the bipod; here the understandable thing is the difference is larger, but not significant 0,36x0,48 versus 0,3x0,3.

          Quote: kplayer
          probably the famous designer himself did not even allow to think about it.


          and keep your assumptions with you.
          1. kplayer
            kplayer 15 February 2014 16: 31
            -1
            Quote: bunta
            Accuracy by single 600 meters for

            AK-74 0,24x012 (0,0288)
            PC-74 0.18x0,18 (0,324)

            that is, the AK in terms of area accuracy is even slightly better.

            And here the accuracy when shooting at a weight with hands, the RPK is harder to keep (advantage in use from the bipod)

            Shooting in bursts is given for the supine position and the bipod; here the understandable thing is the difference is larger, but not significant 0,36x0,48 versus 0,3x0,3.

            This is for you the accuracy indicators are insignificant, I am sure they are also "insignificant" when comparing AK-74 and AK-105.
            In short, the 590mm (544mm of the rifled part) of the PKK barrel "flew into the pipe" (I draw a conclusion for you).

            and keep your assumptions with you.

            What the hell are assumptions !? no and there were no serial ones and it’s enough for me. I am sure that accuracy and feedback are also insignificant and unimportant for you, and your post is stupid.
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    2. uhjpysq1
      uhjpysq1 31 January 2014 17: 04
      0
      ) I didn’t wedge the PCM even after the 150th)
    3. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 1 February 2014 04: 53
      0
      But the real facts refute it. In real combat operations, even experienced fighters, in the overwhelming majority of cases, usually fire in the “wrong direction”. It is somewhat difficult to simply conduct aimed fire at a constantly moving and periodically hiding target, while also actively moving. In many ways, this was the reason for the transition from the M-14 to the M-16.
  16. Doznanied
    Doznanied 31 January 2014 11: 57
    0
    Quote: uhjpysq1
    rpd most that.rpk neither this nor that.

    It would be nice to have a universal modification of the PKK, with the ability to power both from the store, adjacent to the side, and from the tape.
    1. uhjpysq1
      uhjpysq1 31 January 2014 17: 03
      0
      this will not complicate the design, add weight and reduce reliability.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 1 February 2014 04: 55
        0
        I will add. Personally, I am not aware of any more or less reliable dual-power system. I suspect that the creation of such a principle is not possible in principle, because they have too different kinematics and dynamics.
  17. Doznanied
    Doznanied 3 February 2014 07: 27
    0
    Here is an interesting option, with the necessary refinement, why not?
  18. Sledgehammer
    Sledgehammer 4 February 2014 01: 15
    0
    Everything is correctly said. If you have a light machine gun in the compartment, then it is mandatory for ammunition
    which is used in assault rifles, and ideally with high unification in design with it.
  19. kplayer
    kplayer 5 February 2014 22: 07
    0
    The article was clearly written by the Colt lobbyist, nonsense! Marines are such nerds that put the gas regulator in the position of 1000 rpm instead of 700 rpm, and until recently the spare barrel was not even included in the equipment, and if they were taken with them, it was not shot, and this is also important, as shot optics (ACOG / ELCAN). The far-fetched problem with the supply of ammunition, the equipped tape (advantage of the M249 SAW) turns out to be bad, as if shops (30 pat.) For rifles / machine guns do not need to be manually equipped and they are already equipped and even paired. Misalignment of ammunition during store-fed meals is the same phenomenon for rifles and machine guns when firing in bursts, when the magazine has less than half of the rounds (a design flaw (spring) of the early M16 plastic magazines, which also affected the British SA80 A1 weapon).
    The comparative tests were clearly conducted among recruits in Marine Corps schools, not in regular MP bases / camps. And the author pretended not to know that all the Marines are armed with M9 pistols ("Beretta" M92F), and not only the operators of the 7,62mm single M240 machine guns (MAG)
    The feeling that the Israeli army was also "thrown" by the IMI company, armed with belt-fed "Negev" light machine guns and a replaceable barrel.

    There are "seasoned" (in watching militants and demonstration performances of special forces) are so playful that in full gear and in the NIB kit (vest and helmet) they can fight with the RPK-74 in their hands, with the bipod thrown back and a 45-round magazine, with At the same time, moving by "rolling" and pouring hail on the enemy, apparently, homing bullets, deciding that the optics of small magnification (1,5x-4x) to increase the effectiveness of shooting, and actually aimed shooting, they do not need, forgetting that, in general, the main task of the machine gunner fire support of comrades, in addition, optics improve the visibility of the battlefield. LOL from the last century!

    He would fight for the resuscitation and modernization of the RPD, at least for the army special forces.
  20. kplayer
    kplayer 14 February 2014 00: 47
    0
    The reason for the transition from the RPD to the PKK is simple, the Soviet army was a multi-million dollar structure and equipping all rifle and not only rifle divisions with RPD machine guns (since 1944) with tape power was obviously very unprofitable for a huge army.
    The Americans, first in Korea, and then in Vietnam, in the impenetrable jungle, faced avalanche attacks by enemy infantry, and in the case of Korea, at the final stage of the war, the Chinese PLA took a direct part in the hostilities, while Soviet motorized rifles even after the events on Damanskoye had a similar experience there was no (MLRS "Grad" worked), hence the Americans' preference for belt feed for light machine guns, in addition, it was during this period that they began to put machine guns with rotating blocks of barrels of the "Minigun" type on helicopters.

    By the way, PK / PKM does not have a very reliable tape feed due to the used outdated flange cartridge 7,62x54R. Maybe in this regard, we will finalize it and also transfer it to store food? and then we will come up with some excuses like "now it has become better, more convenient and simpler" with all the power of the machine gun preserved.
    1. Nikoha.2010
      Nikoha.2010 14 February 2014 02: 05
      +1
      Quote: kplayer
      Maybe in this regard, we will finalize it and also transfer it to store food? and then we will come up with some excuses like "now it has become better, more convenient and simpler" with all the power of the machine gun preserved.

      Alexander, but you understand who will bother with this, this 7,62 × 54 mm R cartridge (7,62x54, 7,62x54R, 7,62x54R Russian) appeared in 1891. It was adopted as an ammunition for the three-line Mosin rifle. Russian rifle cartridge, with a sleeve dimension of 7,62 × 53,72 mm, a total maximum cartridge length of 77,16 mm, a bullet diameter of 7,92 mm and an energy of 4416 joules. This is one of the oldest rifle cartridges of our time and probably the oldest of the cartridges still widely used. The only equally widely used cartridge of similar dimensions at present is only the 7,62 × 51 mm NATO cartridge. These cartridges are still used in the army, but not for firing the latest automatic rifles, but as ammunition for PC, PKM machine guns and SVD, SVD-S, SVU sniper rifles, and you about modern requirements, you have no idea how much this stuff in stock!
      A military secret! bully repeat Here are NATO. hiAnd the thought is worth the discussion, go find the flange now in the world what Write an article Alexander! fellow
      1. kplayer
        kplayer 14 February 2014 22: 31
        0
        Nikoha.2010
        You have not understood the meaning of irony. The essence of the paragraph above is "RPD - RPK" and their advantages and disadvantages discussed by the people based on the methods of powering machine guns. Anyway.
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