Military Review

"Varyag" gives a signal. The feat of the legendary cruiser today again stirs the minds

119
"Varyag" gives a signal. The feat of the legendary cruiser today again stirs the mindsOn the eve of the 110 anniversary of the battle of the Varyag and the Koreans - two against 14 - the idea of ​​raising the cruiser hull, from the depths of 6-8 and off the coast of Scotland, is receiving increasing support.


The main attention was always attracted by the sailors' feat, but what do we know about the future of the cruiser after the crew opened the kingstones and flooded valves, and he plunged into the water of the gulf near the port of Chemulpo (now Incheon) with a flying flag on the mast?

A year and a half, the Japanese raised the cruiser, spending about one million yen, and after two years of repair under the name "Soya" he was enlisted in the Japanese military fleet, and on the stern they left the inscription "Varangian" out of respect for the courage of Russian sailors (albeit under hieroglyphs). For nine years, the cruiser was a training ship of the cadet school. And each new cadet team was lined up on the deck and announced that they would be trained on a Russian ship that refused to surrender and accepted the battle with a whole Japanese squadron. Following the samurai logic, the government of Japan after the war awards the captain of the cruiser V.F. Rudnev’s Order of the Rising Sun and creates in Seoul a memorial museum of heroes "Varyag". Subsequently, the ashes of the Varyag sailors who died in battle buried in Korea are transferred to the Vladivostok Sea Cemetery. For four million yen, the Russian government redeems Varyag in 1916, and on March 21 it enters the Golden Horn. Since then, the "Varangian" is equipped only with guards crews. Enrolled in the fleet of the Arctic Ocean, he makes the transition from Vladivostok to Romanov-on-Murman (now Murmansk), after which he goes for repair to the UK, alas, in fateful time - February 1917 ... According to the conditions, the repair would cost in 300 thousand pounds, but the Bolsheviks did not intend to pay. What follows is the development of events: the disarmament of the cruiser by allied England, the confiscation and sale of scrap to German firms. Caught in a severe storm when towing (1925), the ship is stuck in the rocks in the Irish Sea off the coast of Scotland, near the village of Landelfoot. Later, the cruiser’s hull was simply blown up so as not to interfere with the local ships.

To support heroic traditions, all members of the Varyag team alive in 1954 to the date of the 50 anniversary of the feat are awarded the Soviet medal "For Courage".

The film "Cruiser Varyag" (1946) is being screened, the monuments to Rudnev are solemnly opened in his homeland in Tula (1956) and in the village of Savino (1992). A museum was opened in the village of Rusyatino (1984). That is why Orlovsky writer Valentin Rassokhin, his essay on Varyag, written for the 100 anniversary of the feat, rightfully called “Varyag is alive!” This is evidenced by the remarkable film by Alexei Denisov (VGTRK), who told about his feat to his contemporaries, and most importantly to the current one market "youth generation. The crew showed off the flood ennuyu of the cruiser hull in the Irish Sea and has proven that it is the "Varyag", filmed under the water sign of the manufacturer - the US firm on the back of which can be seen the hieroglyphs Japanese shipyard, where the cruiser repaired in 1907 year.

Russian entrepreneurs create the Charitable Foundation “Cruiser Varyag” (head M. Slipenchuk). The foundation’s efforts put a buoy with the flag of St. Andrew’s flag over the submerged cruiser hull, a memorial plaque on the Scottish shore, and then a three-meter bronze cross (2007) monument. He has an amazing история. Hundreds of enthusiasts, professional artists, sculptors took part in the contest announced by the foundation, and the layout presented by three Nakhimovists won, and a monument was made on it.

During an official visit to Seoul in November 2010 to President D.A. Medvedev was solemnly presented with the cruiser flag, which, as a sacred relic, was kept in Korea for over a century. Speaking at the ceremony, the President of Russia, in particular, said: “Taking today the guys from the cruiser Varyag, we pay tribute to the feat of our sailors and, on the other hand, try to show that in every life there is a place for feat, and we hope for the fact that the appropriate storage, which will be carried out with us, will enable the younger generations of Russians to also be guided by what was done by their ancestors many years ago. "

It seems that “Varyag” constantly reminds of itself, giving us signals so that we don’t forget about it, don’t leave it at other shores ...

In the spring of 2008, the representative of the Round Table of the descendants of noble families of the Russian Empire S.S. Zuev expressed the idea of ​​lifting parts of the building and organizing the museum. Long persistent work in this direction has been done by him for several years of correspondence with institutions and authorities. The Admirals Club, a regional public organization, responded to his initiative, highly appreciating the importance of the project and proposing to install the raised aft and bow parts in the new building with the required length - 115 m, which can be ordered directly in Scotland. The group of admirals headed by the admiral of the fleet I.M. Captain, who will decide on behalf of the club advisory and technical issues of the project. The concept of the exposition has been developed, where flags, portraits, personal belongings, photos of crew members, documents, pictures of sea battlements will be presented. Chairman of the "Club of Admirals" Fleet Admiral V.I. Kuroyedov writes: "After repairing parts of the cruiser hull and restoration work, it will be possible to create in the sea capital of Russia in the city of St. Petersburg on the Neva River near the Palace Bridge opposite the monument to Peter I" Varyag cruiser museum. The creation of a memorial to the feat of his crew will be an important and inspiring stimulus for educating Russian citizens on the patriotic examples of heroic service to the Fatherland of sailors. "

Here is what Dr. Kravorenko, captain of the 1 rank A. Kramarenko, wrote to the Acting Head of the Scientific Research Institute for Rescue and Underwater Technologies: “When lifting the hull of the Varyag cruiser, the specialists from the Scientific Research Institute VUNC Navy Naval Academy can participate at all stages of the work, including in the composition of the expedition formed a special purpose submarine operations, as it was when lifting the battleship "Novorossiysk", submarines C-80 and Kursk, radioactive experimental ship "Whale" and other difficult to lift objects ".

It is impossible to manage in this case without elaboration of international legal aspects, and it is fully implemented by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia. A set of measures aimed at establishing the status of the remains of the Varyag, finding out the requirements of British legislation in terms of obtaining permits to work on raising the cruiser remains and taking them to Russia is taken. A note was received from the German Foreign Ministry informing that the German side does not have documentary evidence of the ownership rights to the remnant cruiser Varyag in Germany. Russia's Ambassador to the UK, A. Yakovenko, reports: "In contact with the British authorities, we are continuing to elaborate on clarifying the ownership of the remains of the Varyag cruiser. The Historic Scotland Agency and the Marina Scotland Agency received answers about the possibility of raising the cruiser remains, as well as a printout from the online forum of British divers, which may be of interest in terms of deciding to lift the ship. " Deputy Director of the Legal Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia D. Gonchar states that the study of the international legal aspects of raising parts of the Varyag cruiser through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia has been completed.

It can not but rejoice that even in Scotland, this plan finds a response. The St. Andrew's flag is also holy for them: Saint Andrew is the patron saint of not only Russia, the Slavs, sailors, but also of Scotland. Divers bring the details that they had previously shot from the Varyag Corps, since they have not forgotten about the joint work on the creation of the Belfast Museum-cruiser on the Thames in central London, which participated in 1941-1942 in the Northern Convoys. Then some money for this museum were donated by the Russian Ministry of Defense, headed at that time by S. Ivanov.

So that the people are not at all “silent”, but support the work of sacred traditions.

Paradoxically, after 110 years, the details of the feat have not been forgotten, but, on the contrary, more and more clear. History puts everything in its place.

For example, before it was a popular opinion that the “Varyag” could not abandon the low-speed gunboat “Koreyets”, and now they write that in fact everything was exactly the opposite. So, it is still not generally known that the cruiser propulsion system was destroyed during the tests in Philadelphia, where it was built. The ship's steering wheel was almost half as much as other ships of such a displacement, which affected maneuverability (it was insufficient). Americans saved in the cost of bronze and other expensive metals. There were no gun turrets or at least shields on the cruiser. A defective wireless was installed. Plus, the error of American engineers in the calculation of steam distribution. Even in Philadelphia, the cylinder of a steam dynamo was torn, and the hatches of furnace boilers and cast-iron dampers glowed red hot. The temperature in the boiler room was over 70 degrees Celsius, and in 1901, a fire broke out in the central coal bunker due to overheating in the engine room, but due to the skillful actions of the crew there were no casualties. It was also possible to find out that the famous song "The Sea Spread Widely" was written exactly on "Varyag".

It is eerie to read how many other engineering errors were there: the metacenter was undervalued, the ship did not have the required stability, which is extremely dangerous during a storm. Defective cars were being let down all the time, repairs were constantly needed, and the speed was almost ten knots less than estimated, i.e. did not exceed 14 nodes (some sources write 9).

And the speed of the "Korean" - 13 nodes. Surprisingly, the feat of the “Korean”, as it turns out, is undervalued, the information about its commander and team is scarce. The society is looking forward to when the promised channel "History" will work in full force and tell us more about the captain of 2 rank Grigori Pavlovich Belyaev. In the meantime, we know that this clever and brave commander, the son of a naval officer, was born in Kronstadt, and his crew was skillful and harmonious. When 26 January 1904, the gunboat is sent to Port Arthur, the Japanese squadron of six cruisers, eight torpedo boats and one ship messenger have already lined up on the outer roads of the bay in two columns, blocking the exit from the port. Hitting between them "in the pincers", but continuing the movement, the "Korean" is subjected to a mine attack by Japanese ships, on which all the guns are uncovered and all the barrels are aimed at the gunboat. The captain does not give in to the provocation and the boat, moving away from the torpedoes with which the Japanese destroyers attack before the declaration of war, a successful maneuver, - as the sailors write, - drives the destroyer "Tsubame" aground, stops with two warning shots "Takachiho" and, making a turn on Full speed to return to the port of Chemulpo, goes to the ram of the destroyer "Hate", which turns aside.

On January 27, after an hour-long battle of two against 14, when Varyag received 5 underwater holes and lost control of most of its combat capability with the broken steering wheel, Koreans covered the Varyag withdrawal with fire and distracted some Japanese forces and sank the Japanese with several shots the destroyer, fired on the cruiser Takachiho (which sank later), completely destroyed the battleship Asama (the thickness of its armor was 6 inches, and the 8-inch gun was only on the Korean) and kept the gunboat in full combat readiness. There are no damages on the Koreyts, no dead or wounded, because the day before the captain ordered the masts to be shortened, wooden spars and trunks were dropped into the sea, which prevented a fire on the ship and prevented the Japanese artillery from accurately determining the distance and correcting the fire. In addition, the "Korean" shot with black powder projectiles and after each shot was shrouded in thick clouds of smoke.

Despite the fact that they have been writing about the feat for more than a hundred years, it is interesting today to find out that three-quarters of the Varyag team were from the Volyn province (Little Russia).

And the current "Varyag", the flagship of the Pacific Fleet, before the dissolution of the Soviet Union was called "Chervona Ukraine". When he arrived in the Republic of Korea in November 2010, Russian sailors were greeted with applause on the streets of Incheon and Seoul, because the memory of the battle of two against 14 at the beginning of the last century was preserved in Korea.

At the press conference (Interfax) director A.G. Denisov told reporters that during the filming of the film "Varyag" in the United States, the Republic of Korea, Japan, France, Great Britain, unique relics, documents, photographic materials on the history of "Varyag" were unexpectedly discovered, which were never published or shown in Russia.

Few people know that Sergey Sergeevich Zuev, who is unusually energetic in his 87, although he modestly calls himself the coordinator of the movement for raising the cruiser Varyag, started and heads this campaign. Not yet translated patriots on Russian land!

By the way, the Swedes in 1963 g. Raised their seventeenth-century galleon "Vasa", although he still could not do anything, but only went out to sea for the first time. The royal flagship four-deck, for its manufacture used thousands of oaks. He was taken from the depths of 32 m, and now he flaunts himself in the center of Stockholm on Fr. Yurgorden. The museum is open all year round in Oslo, on the Byugdey peninsula, where Norwegians store the Kon-Tiki raft, on which Thor Heyerdahl swam across the Pacific Ocean, the Ra papyrus boat and the reed Tigris.

Another remarkable innovation: on the Internet in detail dismantled the events of those days, up to the maneuvers of ships; seamen, writers, journalists, historians, military experts analyze the situation from the point of view of specific digital data; the versions differ in polarity, the authors argue fervently, criticize each other, and all this says only one thing: “Varyag” is alive!
Author:
Originator:
http://www.stoletie.ru/
119 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. SPACE
    SPACE 1 February 2014 09: 37
    +27
    “Our proud VARYAG does not surrender to the enemy, no one wants mercy”
    Of these moments, the greatest history in the world is formed, and it is this history that forms the consciousness of each new person and is the foundation of statehood.
  2. mark1
    mark1 1 February 2014 10: 19
    -25%
    You can give me as many disadvantages as you like, but apart from the incompetence of the commander and failure to fulfill the combat mission, I cannot give any other assessment of the actions of the cruiser "Varyag". Let me remind you that the combat mission of "Varyag" and "Koreyets" was - being part of the international forces to ensure the prevention of the landing of Japanese troops in the port of Chemulpo (that is, the guarantee of Korea's sovereignty). And the result is the following - the "Korean" was blown up, the "Varyag", after being lifted by its own power, was driven by the Japanese to the place of repair, the landing force was landed without any opposition, the Japanese squadron departed to the shores of Port Arthur to complete the combat mission.
    1. rozowik
      rozowik 1 February 2014 11: 24
      +17
      Following your logic, if you put 5 people in front of you and give the task of defeating them (at the same time), you will be scored accordingly, but again, the task is not completed, you are COMPETENT.
      1. mark1
        mark1 1 February 2014 12: 22
        -14%
        You don't even get into the essence of the issue and as a result - a large bubble from a basin of water. The combat mission was not to defeat Asama, but to prevent the landing of the assault force, for this it was necessary to sink transports with soldiers and not watch them from the raid, and if you decided to just die but not surrender, then be so kind as to flood the property entrusted to you, and then this property then went under its own power for repairs.
        1. rozowik
          rozowik 1 February 2014 12: 58
          +13
          and then after all this property then under its own power went into repair.

          Honestly, what are you grinding, well, who went where?

          For a year and a half, the Japanese raised the cruiser, spending about one million yen, and after two years of repairs under the name "Soya", she was enlisted in the Japanese navy

          Right after the battle, the ship went only to the bottom, and thereby fulfilled its combat mission: it did not surrender and did not replenish the enemy fleet, and you are grinding rubbish here.
          Why don’t you remember that Japanese ships were armed with stronger English cannons, while our ships in arsenal were inferior? And about armor protection I generally am silent.
          It seems that the "Varyag" and "Korean" could easily sink the troops, and the Japanese stood quietly next to themselves and watched.
          1. mark1
            mark1 1 February 2014 13: 34
            -3
            Quote: rozowik
            For a year and a half, the Japanese raised the cruiser, spending about one million yen, and after two years of repairs under the name "Soya", she was enlisted in the Japanese navy

            Dear, have you seen a photo of the "flooded" "Varyag" at low tide? (I do not post it on purpose, you will not find a famous photo yourself)
            Quote: rozowik
            Why don’t you remember that Japanese ships were armed with stronger English cannons, while our ships in arsenal were inferior?

            Well, squeaks then measure up business, of course, fascinating, but believe me Canet's tools are not so bad. Yes, and the battle was fought at a distance of 35-40 cables, even the "Koreets" with old artillery was quite nothing.
            Quote: rozowik
            It seems that the "Varyag" and "Korean" could easily sink the troops, and the Japanese stood quietly next to themselves and watched.

            No, they would have hindered in every way b, but for this they would have to first recall the landing ships from under the line of fire (and during this time they could have been drowned all) and wait for the departure of the international squadron.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 17: 07
              +7
              Quote: mark1
              Dear, have you seen a photo of the "flooded" "Varyag" at low tide? (I do not post it on purpose, you will not find a famous photo yourself)

              Do you by any chance know how long it took the Japanese to lift this, as you write, "submerged" ship and put it into operation? So study it. And then ask yourself a question - WHY was Rudnev completely destroying the cruiser? How could Rudnev know that the war would be unsuccessful? And that the Varyag, in the end, will be raised by the Japanese and not the Russians?
              Rudnev just did everything right - he disabled the ship so that the Japanese obviously could not use it in the war.
              Quote: mark1
              Well, squealing is something to be measured, of course, fascinating, but believe the cane’s guns are not so bad.

              Maybe so, only now you somehow forgot that more than half of the most experienced commandors from the Varyag disappeared right before leaving for Chemulpo. Dembel left them.
              Quote: mark1
              No, they would have hindered in every way b, but for this they would have to first recall the landing ships from under the line of fire (and during this time they could have been drowned all) and wait for the departure of the international squadron.

              M-ya ... and this is written by a person who claims to be the title of the REV ...
              1. mark1
                mark1 1 February 2014 17: 20
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                M-ya ... and this is written by a person who claims to be the title of the REV ...

                This is not knowledge of the REV, this is in my particular case my estimates (even if they are illiterate from your point of view), but in any case of all the useless actions committed by Rudnev, an attempt to destroy the enemy landing would be the most correct.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 20: 10
                  +6
                  Quote: mark1
                  This is not knowledge of the REV, this is in my particular case my estimates (even if they are illiterate from your point of view), but in any case of all the useless actions committed by Rudnev, an attempt to destroy the enemy landing would be the most correct.

                  Rudnev, so you know, had the ORDER - not to impede the landing of the Japanese, if it had occurred before the declaration of war. The Japanese did not prepare the landing in one day or two - preparatory work was already being done in early January, food depots were being built along the roads, Japanese soldiers and officers dressed as Koreans landed for such and other work. Rudnev regularly reported all this - but there was no answer ...
                  1. mark1
                    mark1 1 February 2014 20: 15
                    -3
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Rudnev, so you know, had the ORDER - not to impede the landing of the Japanese, if it had occurred before the declaration of war.

                    Well, what prevented him from opening fire on places of concentration of troops and on landing ships after the announcement of an ultimatum?
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 20: 25
                      +5
                      Quote: mark1
                      Well, what prevented him from opening fire on places of concentration of troops and on landing ships after the announcement of an ultimatum?

                      Your absolute ignorance. Rudnev received the ultimatum AFTER the landing took place
                      1. mark1
                        mark1 1 February 2014 20: 32
                        -1
                        I repeat - you are not too thoughtfully reading my posts
                        "... Well, what prevented him from opening fire on places of concentration of troops ..."
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 22: 31
                        +3
                        Quote: mark1
                        I repeat - you are not too thoughtfully reading my posts

                        Again, you need to learn materiel. Read the same Melnikov for a start, he has something just for the "troop concentrations" Well, in order not to divide the "discussion" into 10 parts, I will answer you below
            2. mark1
              mark1 1 February 2014 17: 27
              -2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              How could Rudnev know that the war would fail? And that the Varangian, in the end, will be raised by the Japanese and not the Russians?
              Rudnev just did everything right - he disabled the ship so that the Japanese obviously could not use it in the war.

              Well this is necessary, what a wise Rudnev! So in Port Arthur, there were plenty of wise people. Only on "Sevastopol" one gathered
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 17: 38
                +3
                Quote: mark1
                There were plenty of wise people in Port Arthur.

                Woo little dogs. Do you see the difference between Arthur and Chemulpo? However, where is it for you, after all, Abakus did not write about it ... 1TOE died in Arthur, and taking into account the successes of the Japanese on land, it was not necessary to be 7 an inch on the forehead to allow the loss of the RPN. In Chemulpo, at the very beginning of the war, it was naturally impossible to draw such conclusions.
                1. mark1
                  mark1 1 February 2014 17: 58
                  -3
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Do you see the difference between Arthur and Chemulpo?

                  Yes, no! After all, there were 2 TOEs on the way, but how would you win !?
                  And please, don't hang "abacuses" on me, we ourselves ...
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 19: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: mark1
                    And please, don't hang "abacuses" on me, we ourselves ...

                    Quite right - you "translate the arrows" no worse than Abakus. We are talking about Rudnev and Varyag, and your attempt to transfer the conversation to Port Arthur only confirms the fact that you have nothing to say about Varyag
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 16: 53
        +3
        For complete ignorance of history with an immoderate desire to say something - a well-deserved minus.
        1. mark1
          mark1 1 February 2014 17: 49
          +1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          For complete ignorance of history with an immoderate desire to say something - a well-deserved minus.

          Nimbus is not squeezing?
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 19: 28
            +2
            Do not press. I don’t have it, a halo. And you, the man slandering the crew of the heroic cruiser, should not think about the halo, but about other places: where they drown hot, and the service staff is quick, but slightly horned ...
            1. Leksander
              Leksander 1 February 2014 19: 46
              0
              Andryushenka, are you no longer running around with nonsense about "beautiful" ripping open the belly at the first shots of the enemy?
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 20: 13
                +1
                Quote: Leksander
                Andryushenka, are you no longer running around with nonsense about "beautiful" ripping open the belly at the first shots of the enemy?

                This is what you are interested in?
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. mark1
              mark1 1 February 2014 19: 52
              0
              Oooh how you suffered that! It is visible hurt tail pinched.
              And I do not slander the crew of the cruiser, you are not too thoughtfully reading my posts, but you rush to argue right away. Reread, please, drink a glass of water, take a deep breath ... In general, take care of yourself.
              We are talking only about the actions of the commander, the heroism of the crew is not in doubt in any way!
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 20: 23
                +5
                Quote: mark1
                Oooh how you suffered that! It is visible hurt tail pinched.

                I also don’t have a tail, didn’t guess :) And you simply can’t pinch something there - the thesaurus didn’t fledge laughing
                Quote: mark1
                It's just about the actions of the commander

                You don't have to speak. You see, before making this very speech, it would be nice to at least a little familiarize yourself with the question about which you are going to conduct this very speech. And you didn't even deign to read Melnikov (which is a classic about the Varyag) - but in the same place, "I have an opinion" This is me about the order received by Rudnev - before the declaration of war on him was forbidden discourage the landing of the Japanese. Orders, generally speaking, are not discussed; they are being followed. At the same time, wish you at least a little insight into the situation at that time and recall that Rudnev knew exactly what he knew, he did not have the Internet or the time machine, and he knew the following — the aggravation with the Japanese, but the war has not yet begun, Russia for the time being, she’s not ready for a war with the Japanese (1TOE hasn’t received everything she should have and so on) and - in your opinion, he should have come forward to defend Chemulpo, risking (and only that way he could have thought) to drag Russia into the war for which not ready? And it’s okay only with Japan, the English hospital official clearly said that he would not tolerate firing on the raid, i.e. in your opinion, Rudnev should have risked pulling Russia into the war not only with Japan, but also with England ... And this, in your opinion, is the best that Rudnev could do. wassat What can I say, bravo!
                1. mark1
                  mark1 1 February 2014 21: 51
                  -1
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And you simply can’t pinch something there - the thesaurus didn’t lean

                  Well, for starters, let me congratulate you on the open thesaurus - probably handsome.
                  Now to the point;
                  Before the announcement of the ultimatum, Rudnev, of course, was obliged to comply with all peacetime instructions. The ultimatum is a declaration of war. In case of war, there is a combat mission that must be accomplished; attempts by a third party to oppose should not be taken into account and, in extreme cases, be suppressed.
                  Rudnev’s big-time politics shouldn’t be tense (but for reference, England was not ready for war with Russia either, it’s one thing to petty shit on the Far East, another big war of the Crimean type, but with an unknown outcome)
                  And here Rudnev has three options
                  1. Attack the Japanese squadron and die
                  2. Blow up "Varyag" and "Korean" on the roads
                  3. To strike at places where enemy troops are clustered on the coast and military vehicles and again blow up ships in the roads.
                  All options involve the death of ships, wherever there is a happy end (is there anything that I am in Cyrillic?). The third corresponds to the combat mission. And in any case, the ships should be destroyed and not sunk in shallow water.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 23: 31
                    +2
                    Quote: mark1
                    Well, for starters, let me congratulate you on the open thesaurus - probably handsome.

                    I don’t need a thesaurus in feathers - I’m not going to hurt anyone’s tails :)
                    Quote: mark1
                    Now to the point;

                    I'm all in anticipation ...
                    Quote: mark1
                    Before the announcement of the ultimatum, Rudnev, of course, was obliged to comply with all peacetime instructions. The ultimatum is a declaration of war.

                    Aha
                    Quote: mark1
                    In case of war there is a combat mission that must be completed

                    And what was Rudnev’s combat mission in case of war? :))) Tell us (only with links to sources) - what should the Russian cruiser do in the event of a war with Japan? :))) I understand that you have something decided that the main combat mission of Rudnev is
                    The combat mission was not to defeat Asama, but to prevent the landing of troops, for this it was necessary to sink transports with soldiers

                    In fact, all this is nothing more than your fantasies. Rudnev no one has ever posed such tasks. Moreover, he could not have set it for himself, because after receiving an ultimatum, such a task was completely impossible.
                    Quote: mark1
                    third party attempts to oppose should not be taken into account and, as a last resort, be suppressed.

                    This is just an epic. Those. Rudnev had to arrange the shooting, thereby violating the sovereignty of Korea (that the Japanese had violated it before that had no effect), and if the British or the French intervened, would they sink them? wassat
                    After you said this yourself, the further discussion made no sense at all - I think those who read you after that have already understood the level of your opinions. But I will nevertheless describe a little what exactly happened there.
                    Firstly, the preparation and landing by small detachments in Korea was carried out by the Japanese from the beginning of January, i.e. long before the start of the war. Rudnev regularly reported that, but his messages did not change his instructions.
                    Secondly - the landing in Chemulpo itself took place in the evening and night of January 26 - the Japanese cruisers (including Asama) entered the raid and stood between the Varangian and the Japanese vehicles from which the landing was made. Naturally, Rudnev, having a direct order not to prevent the Japanese from landing in Chemulpo until the declaration of war, could not stop them (in front of him were not only cruisers, but destroyers with torpedo tubes ready for firing), and should not (order).
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 23: 32
                      +5
                      Thirdly - by the morning of January 27, ALL Japanese troops were landed in Chemulpo, and the Japanese transports left. "Japanese landing" sounds, of course, formidable, but the Japanese landed only 3 (three thousand) people in Chemulpo, the landing took place in the evening and at night, supplies for this landing were in the city for a long time, so by the morning of January 000 there were no military transports. no mythical "accumulations of enemy troops" within the reach of the "Varyag" guns existed in nature. In the morning, Rudnev goes to the English cruiser (he was the senior on the roadstead) with a proposal to intervene and not give offense to the sovereignty of Korea. The Englishman replies that the international squadron WILL NOT interfere with the landing of the Japanese landing force (which has actually taken place), but that the English cruiser will not tolerate hostilities in the raid and will open fire on anyone who tries to fight in the Chemulpo raid!
                      AND AFTER THIS, Rudnev receives an ultimatum
                      Accordingly, Rudnev is in a situation where:
                      1) There are no Japanese transports at hand - they are long gone
                      2) The Japanese have already captured Chemulpo and scattered around the city
                      3) An attempt to open fire while on the Chemulpo raid will be regarded by the British as a violation of the neutrality of Korea and the British will fight with the Varangian!
                      Are you talking about
                      Quote: mark1
                      To strike at places of concentration of enemy troops on the coast and military transport

                      You don’t even understand that if Varyag opened fire on Chemulpo (i.e., the territory of Korea), he would maliciously violate its sovereignty (and the fact that the Japanese had violated this sovereignty earlier does not absolve Rudnev from responsibility) I’ll draw an analogy - what do you think, if two raped a girl in turn, and then they were caught, can the one who raped the girl be the second to count on the indulgence of the court on the ground that the girl had already been abused before him?
                      In general, before criticizing Rudnev, take the trouble to collect the remnants of your decency into a fist and, tensing up, teach the materiel, figure out what conditions Rudnev acted in, and then state your opinion, so as not to become like the well-known Sharikov, who loves to give advice of "cosmic proportions and cosmic stupidity "
                      Quote: mark1
                      And in any case, the ships should be destroyed and not sunk in shallow water.

                      Why?
                    2. smile
                      smile 2 February 2014 00: 20
                      +4
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      So you say that you were not going to pinch your opponent’s tail ... but it turned out .... :))) and even so high quality .... :))) Your evil intention is visible ... :))) Well, how do you after that not ay-ay-ay? :))) Please remove the boot from the tail of a friend, otherwise he will drop it ... :)))
                    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2014 00: 43
                      +2
                      Quote: smile
                      Well, how do you think after that ay-ay-ay? :)))

                      Nuuuu, somewhere deep down, I am probably tormented by remorse ... laughing
                      Quote: smile
                      Please remove the boot from the tail of a friend

                      Do you think that if I rearrange this boot from tail to neck, will it be better? Hmm, and this is a thought laughing drinks
                    4. smile
                      smile 2 February 2014 03: 23
                      +1
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      You are angry ... and ruthless .... :))) but FIGs you will be able to rearrange the boot from tail to neck - the tail shoots off instantly ... they fast-stop figs ... and comrades dodge ..... while take aim at the neck - get out of the .... tsya .... horseradish .... as they say, you’ll catch! Yes, they will not keep track of firearms! Etozh shustriki! To be honest ... I had a specific experience - I resorted to the hostel’s kitchen to screech my wife .. I saw a rat ... I immediately remembered my grandfathers and my mother’s stories — my grandmother didn’t screech in this situation ... she opened fire - using grandfathers TTshnik, which my grandfather always gave her for cleaning ... granny stopped shooting when the second store ended .... :)))) That's right, my granny is as harsh as the whole of Chelyabinsk, and as tough as a blade with a dirk of an officer of the USSR Navy . Steel may not be the best, but harder, you will find horseradish! :))))
                    5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2014 12: 30
                      +3
                      Quote: smile
                      .fast they FIG FIGHT

                      We just got all these "subverters of foundations." For me, if you undertake to subvert something, go across the interpretations generally recognized by generations of historians, then you must dig the topic up and down, memorize all available sources, restore the timing, study all the nuances ... Read an article and a half and - forward.
                      And after all, this is what is characteristic - for some reason, the "overthrowers" do not choose topics such as the genocide of the Indians in North America or the priority of the British in setting up concentration camps (in fact, the Fuhrer applied the same ideas but on a large scale) Digging only in our history ...
                    6. The comment was deleted.
                    7. The comment was deleted.
                    8. The comment was deleted.
                    9. mark1
                      mark1 3 February 2014 00: 24
                      +1
                      For smile Oh and your rough tongue, my friend! And, as you can see, someone likes it ...
  • ilea123456
    ilea123456 1 February 2014 21: 22
    0
    who just gave him a word
  • Pamir210
    Pamir210 2 February 2014 11: 35
    -1
    absolutely right.
    in the end, Rudnev was forced to go on a feat and cover up his incompetence with courage of soldiers and officers (and his own)
  • Rosomaha67
    Rosomaha67 1 February 2014 12: 39
    +11
    ...... just for some reason you do not mention the ultimatum put forward by the Japanese only to the Russian ships and their crew, and about the "neutrality" of the notorious "international forces" on this issue, which they announced immediately after the Japanese command demanded the surrender of two ships from these same "international forces" - why did they immediately put their tongues in the w-poo, and did not shout about trampling on the status of "international peacekeepers", so no need to miss the task ... and "Koreyets" was alone - not to drop the honor of the St. Andrew's flag and not change the oath, with which they coped with honor !!!!!
    ..... and to comment on events sitting at the computer and not on the deck under artillery fire, any noob can go into battle, and then talk about exploits!
    1. mark1
      mark1 1 February 2014 13: 10
      -4
      And you, and you ... some kind of enthusiastic boys ... One offers me to lead the squadron instead of Rozhdestvensky, the other to take the place of Rudnev ... More than a hundred years have passed, gentlemen, then, against the background of total failures of Russia in the war with Japan, we need there were heroes and they appeared both real and not so. Now you can simply analyze those distant events without blindness and pseudo-patriotic hysteria. Each combat unit is located at one point or another not so simply and not with the goal of simply perishing without lowering the flag (this is not a duel of the nobles). they all have combat missions that can (and must) be completed, but it is possible (for some combination of circumstances) not to complete this war; everything happens, they simply don’t give orders for not fulfilling a combat mission. And in any case, the materiel must be destroyed
      1. Jipo
        Jipo 1 February 2014 14: 15
        +8
        I understand if only in Russia then they talked about the feat of the Varyag, but why should the Japanese glorify illiterate and inept Russians, they would have written that "fuck Russia. The version you submitted has been walking on the Internet for a long time, there is nothing new here, like in the Suvorov-Rezunov history of the Second World War, the Internet space is free, people have the right.Just why would the Japanese raise a wave, but if there were killed and wounded a little, and everyone's legs turned out to be?
        1. mark1
          mark1 1 February 2014 16: 08
          +1
          Quote: JIPO
          The version you have presented has been surfing the Internet for a long time, there is nothing new here, as in the Suvorovo-Rezunovsky history of the Great Patriotic War

          I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth, but I have my own view of historical events based on the study of available historical materials. As far as I understand, you have not studied the history of the Russian-Japanese war, and have not done any analysis, you had enough information from Port Arthur and Tsushima, and maybe even just from newspapers.
          I do not diminish the feat of ordinary sailors and soldiers in that war, but I will always argue that the reason for the defeat of Russia in the Russian-Japanese war is 90% in the incompetence of the senior and middle command personnel and Rudnev’s incomprehensible actions only confirm this.
          1. Jipo
            Jipo 1 February 2014 16: 24
            +1
            Quote: mark1
            As far as I understand, you have not studied the history of the Russian-Japanese war, and have not done any analysis, you had enough information from Port Arthur and Tsushima, and maybe even just from newspapers.

            I didn’t delve deeply into this war, I was more interested in the period after 17 and didn’t give any estimates to your words, but said that the Varyag’s crew acted correctly or incorrectly, and the feat was estimated by the enemy. It is a fact. Everything that is connected with the battle gives rise to various estimates of different people who are not always objective and can only be considered as versions, and we were not there anyway. As for the mistakes of the command, they were and it seems to me that they were repeated throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, we were always beaten at the beginning, why is there another question, Russia is always good at a distance and with a strong-willed leader, and then ... PS I want to say that in the course of the war did not delve into much, and I know the political situation well, within the framework of the available documents of course.
      2. lelikas
        lelikas 1 February 2014 15: 42
        +6
        Quote: mark1
        and against the backdrop of Russia's total failures in the war with Japan, heroes were needed and they appeared both real and not so. Now you can simply analyze those distant events without blindness and pseudo-patriotic hysteria

        Oh yes, we are aware of the "Varyag" screwed up, Gastello did not hit the convoy on his burning plane, Matrosov slipped in front of the pillbox and did not know how to throw grenades at all, and the Panfilovites were not 28 and the Germans were going elsewhere, you can continue indefinitely but the essence of the FEAT does not change from this - even if Rudnev made a tactical mistake - the cruiser's team fought HEROICALLY.

        Well, on the topic of the article - rave reviews about the rise of all this is certainly not bad, but you need to remember - the cruiser’s hull was first dismantled at low tide, then it was blown up, its fragments are scattered along the bottom and assemble it in the manner of Aurora (in which 2/3 remake) no longer succeed. You can certainly pick them up and put them in the museum, but I don’t know how it will look.
    2. Cristall
      Cristall 1 February 2014 14: 29
      +8
      It is interesting to read that Rudnev had to give an order, for example, to destroy "Chiyoda" because she came out to warn the squadron of Uriu. Destroy the landing and the same Chiyoda at the beginning of the actions of the Japanese troops. And all this before the declaration of war!
      That is, to cause this war? Rudnev did not know and could not know about the beginning (remember how the Japanese "declared war"), he could have assumed that Pavlov was in the know, but the envoy himself was cut off from information (the Japanese blocked the communications center). International hospitals generally behaved treacherously --- assured of the inviolability of every hospital and forgot to mention that Russians do not belong to the international community at all. As a result, Rudnev is biding his time. He cannot leave without an order, inform too (the Korean was sent with a dispatch, but he is not an airplane) to act against the landing himself too.
      In general, some heroes might have given the order to smash transports on the Chemulpo roadstead, but the Russian hospital was, thank God, a Russian.
      1. mark1
        mark1 1 February 2014 17: 10
        +1
        Quote: Cristall
        in general, some heroes might have given the order to smash transports on the Chemulpo raid, but thank the god the Russian hospital was Russian.

        Amen
  • svp67
    svp67 1 February 2014 13: 04
    +9
    Quote: mark1
    You can give me as many disadvantages as you like, but apart from the incompetence of the commander and failure to fulfill the combat mission, I cannot give any other assessment of the actions of the cruiser "Varyag"

    One could agree with you, with the exception of one, but what a BUT ... And this BUT, the fact that the feat of "Varyag" is valuable because it is COLLECTIVE. I perfectly understand all the hopelessness of the situation, the sailors did not even think about surrender and flight - they went to fight TO THE DEATH ... From this position, look at this battle, as people with their hands torn off, without legs, under a hail of fragments, Fought for the Motherland ... And did not discuss whether to do it or not
    1. mark1
      mark1 1 February 2014 13: 22
      -5
      The sailors were doing their military duty, fleeing from the ship ??? "crew losses - 1 officer and 30 sailors were killed, 6 officers and 85 sailors were wounded and shell-shocked, about 100 more people were slightly injured." crew of 20 officers, 550 sailors. Who fought there with severed arms and legs, I don't know (maybe to my shame)
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 February 2014 15: 19
        +2
        Quote: mark1
        I don’t know who fought there with severed arms and legs (maybe to my shame)
        I won’t lay out the material for you, but when I find it, it’s necessary ..
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 1 February 2014 19: 42
          +3
          The initial inspection of the Varyag that had crawled into the bay showed that repairs on their own were impossible. "Varyag" in the past two hours from a beautiful snow-white cruiser has turned into a ship that is a terrifying sight. The deck was punctured in many places, covered in blood and littered with uncleared bodies of the dead. The top elbow of the third pipe was completely demolished. The wing of the captain's bridge hung obliquely, on which most of the ship's signalmen and officers died. Of the twelve six-inch cannons, only four remained usable - and that was subject to immediate repair. All 47 mm guns and 10 of 12 152 mm guns were destroyed.

          All metal boats were completely perforated, and all wooden boats were burned. A quarter of the team was killed or seriously injured, about a third - slightly injured, but these did not leave their posts. In fifty minutes of the battle, two-thirds of the team were injured. They could only be taken to the infirmary - unconscious on the spot from pain shock or loss of blood. For example, the sanitary team picked up the artillery midshipman Gubonin, who, with a fragmented wound to his leg with bone damage and a severe burn, remained near the gun until he left the battle. One of the surviving signalmen remained at the military post for more than an hour, only stopping blood from a hand chopped off by fragments ... http: //shistory.ru/rjw_cruiser-variag.shtml
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 16: 56
        +4
        Quote: mark1
        crew losses - 1 officer and 30 sailors were killed, 6 officers and 85 sailors were wounded and shell-shocked, about 100 people were slightly injured.

        Those. more than the battleship Eagle in Tsushima, and more than many German battlecruisers in Jutland. This is for reference
        1. mark1
          mark1 1 February 2014 17: 13
          -2
          Not badly injured "Eagle" with a de-paralyzed crew surrendered, and the German LCs were handsome in the battle of Jutland. This is also for reference.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 17: 35
            +1
            Quote: mark1
            Not badly damaged "Eagle"

            Google a photo of the "not badly damaged" ship. We recall that this is an battleship, not a symbolically armored armored cruiser. We compare losses and the ratio of losses to the initial crew size. We blush and shut up.
            The eagle surrendered, yes. But the Varangian - no
            1. mark1
              mark1 1 February 2014 17: 43
              -1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The eagle surrendered, yes. But the Varangian - no

              I am not a lawyer for "Eagle" and it was not in my thoughts that "Varyag" should surrender. I said that out of the whole set of possible actions before flooding, Rudnev performed the most useless and illogical.
  • bandabas
    bandabas 1 February 2014 15: 11
    +2
    Read the story. An ultimatum was presented. if they surrender, there will be an attack in the raid, regardless of the ships of other countries. I put a minus. And the Japs Russians in that war would have done.
    1. mark1
      mark1 1 February 2014 17: 31
      -1
      Quote: bandabas
      if they surrender, there will be an attack in the raid, regardless of the ships of other countries.

      Do you yourself believe that?
    2. mark1
      mark1 1 February 2014 17: 36
      +1
      Quote: bandabas
      But the Japs Russians in that war would have done.

      Yes, of course they would! ... but not right away ... and not everywhere, maybe in Manchuria.
  • sawmill
    sawmill 2 February 2014 08: 19
    0
    To perform a combat mission, it is necessary to leave the port at least, the exit is blocked by the Japanese. Rudnev had three options:
    1. Surrender to the japanese
    2. To disarm in the port (the presence of a warship of a belligerent country in the port of a country not at war is not allowed (limited in time) by maritime laws.
    3. Break through with the fight.

    The choice of commander is known.
    The charges against him look weird.
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 1 February 2014 10: 24
    +7
    You can't remain indifferent! This is our story! Not only we are proud of this moment, but also admired abroad, incl. and enemies. And "Varyag" should be raised. And the place of his parking is near the "Aurora".
    1. Heccrbq.3
      Heccrbq.3 1 February 2014 10: 35
      -4
      Will we raise money for raising SMSkami on 1 CHANNEL, as well as sick kids? Or will the security officer fork out?
      1. rozowik
        rozowik 1 February 2014 11: 30
        +4
        Yes, it’s better on this matter than any Zhanna Friske, who have their own money, but are treated for folk
    2. Greenwood
      Greenwood 1 February 2014 19: 04
      +2
      His place of stay is Golden Horn Bay in Vladivostok. Varyag is forever connected with this city.
  • ICT
    ICT 1 February 2014 10: 41
    +1
    Quote: VohaAhov
    And "Varyag" must be raised.

    What are you about

    The Varangian in itself is a symbol even stronger than what might be expected at the first moment,

  • moremansf
    moremansf 1 February 2014 12: 03
    +5
    "Varyag" is a symbol of honor and heroism of Russian sailors !!! How many generations have been brought up on his feat !!! It is a pity, of course, that a similar feat of the "Korean" is not so widely known. The idea of ​​raising the Varyag is good and quite feasible !!!
    1. ICT
      ICT 1 February 2014 12: 35
      +1
      Quote: moremansf
      The idea of ​​raising the Varyag is good and quite feasible !!!


      like the first link,
      http://www.vesti7.ru/news?id=2770
      the iron in the feat of the cruiser, has zero potential compared to the same flag, there are many other places for the application of forces
  • 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 1 February 2014 13: 44
    0
    It is eerie to read how many other engineering errors were there: the metacenter was undervalued, the ship did not have the required stability, which is extremely dangerous during a storm. Defective cars were being let down all the time, repairs were constantly needed, and the speed was almost ten knots less than estimated, i.e. did not exceed 14 nodes (some sources write 9).
    quote from the author.
    I remember the movie "Volga-Volga", there was a song with the words "America gave Russia a steamer ...". What good was expected from the then almost allies of Japan.
    1. Moore
      Moore 2 February 2014 15: 55
      0
      The question is rhetorical: who gave the technical assignment to the amers of that time for design and acceptance?
  • Arh
    Arh 1 February 2014 13: 48
    +3
    On January 27, 1904, off the coast of Chemulpo, the Cruiser Varyag and the Gunner Boat Koreets entered into battle with the Japanese squadron of 14 ships! ! !
  • Cristall
    Cristall 1 February 2014 14: 40
    +7
    Varyag is even more necessary for Russia than "Aurora". But failed to save. In general, if only to reconstruct it.
    The feat of the Korean is also significant. Although the range of 8 inches was not enough to harm Asama. Asama was damaged by the Varangian, but sorry, not fatally. This will be the whole war ...
    This is a feat, now of course it’s being diminished, but go get 2 by 14 in a narrow channel, Rudnev had a breakthrough goal or deal damage in the form of a sunken cruiser before death. Failed. But he made an attempt, and did not surrender the ship, on the cover of international hospital law.
    Bad tendency to downplay exploits ... oh bad.
    In general, what I'm sorry in our story is that we do not keep this story! For example, we had 3 battleships with 1 MV, the last 2 MV. Yes, they would have kept at least October. The roar. how to save Aurora. They would have saved the cruiser Kiev, restored and saved Tashkent .. Although there would have been at least one battleship. Nothing ... it seems to me, or we ourselves do not care what we do not store, having lost weeping?
    If possible, restore the Varangian? The Japanese still keep their Mikasu. Americans even keep Arizona, silent about their other monuments.
    I am sorry to say this, but we ourselves are to blame for the fact that everyone writes our story. We must save it, but we do not store anything.
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 1 February 2014 14: 43
    +4
    The best monument to the courage and resilience of the Varyag crew would be the construction and commissioning of a super-modern ship with this name into the Russian Navy.
    1. ICT
      ICT 1 February 2014 14: 56
      +4
      Quote: Stiletto
      the introduction of the ultramodern ship of the same name into the Russian Navy.


      one, it’s also still not quite bad, on the same TVD practically in the situation of that time
      1. lelikas
        lelikas 1 February 2014 15: 52
        +2
        Yes, but older already, the renamed cruiser is a little different.
        Now, if he would not be called Liaolin now ...
        1. Greenwood
          Greenwood 1 February 2014 16: 18
          0
          And it would have stood still unfinished like the cruiser "Ukraine" (at best, at worst it would have been cut into scrap metal) and would have looked like this:
          1. Greenwood
            Greenwood 1 February 2014 16: 20
            0
            And not like this:
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • Greenwood
    Greenwood 1 February 2014 15: 42
    +1
    I always dreamed that "Varyag" would stand in the Golden Horn as a monument to the Russian fleet and a military museum, like "Aurora" in St. Petersburg.
  • Yarik
    Yarik 1 February 2014 16: 59
    0
    The acquisition of a cruiser from Japan in the 16th can only be explained by moral and psychological aspects and an attempt to motivate the army / navy in the First World War. the combat value of a 17-year-old cruiser, and in his "youth", let's say, not shining in performance characteristics, is doubtful (recall that, for example, the same Germans had a cruiser service life of 20 years).

    There is no damage on the Koreyets, no killed or wounded, because the day before the captain ordered to shorten the masts, throw wooden masts and topmills into the sea, which prevented a fire on the ship and prevented the Japanese artillerymen from accurately determining the distance and adjusting fire

    Well, they made fun. This is true for the first, second, third sighting shots. And only. Further amendments are introduced and the height of the mast goes to hell.

    The acquisition of Peresvet from the Yap also made practical sense.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 1 February 2014 17: 16
    +5
    Personally, my opinion.

    Yuoy "Varyag" and "Koreyets" was supposed to take place in the given situation of that time. He could not be - the conditions of the ultimatum of the Japanese were forced. I believe that the "Varyag" could not abandon the "Koreyets" only because its speed, due to the malfunction of the machines, did not differ much from the speed of the gunboat. BECAUSE IT IS SO. You have to put up with this, it's true. Rudnev's mistake is that he did not blow up the Varyag, as Belyaev did. Therefore, he was expelled from the Marine Corps. They treated him with jellied meat, which is why later, due to patriotic sentiments because of this feat, he was promoted in rank and sent to retire. Although his colleagues (in particular Essen, Grigorovich) continued to serve and took part in the World War. This is true and must be tolerated.
    Another thing is that the very fact of two ships going out against an enemy several times superior in firepower speaks for itself. It doesn't matter that the battle results are not impressive. And "Takachiho" was sunk in the 14th year near Qingdao by a German torpedo boat, and not in 1904. And the Japanese did not receive the damage that is attributed. Again, this is true and must be tolerated. After all, if the Japanese themselves admit that they did not expect THIS, then it costs a lot. That is why there was a feat. But it is worth approaching it from the moral side of the issue. Always a feat inspires hope in the hearts of losers. And if you want to defeat your opponent, take away your hope. For the people of the Empire, the very fact of what happened was of great moral importance. That is why he was so important. And then there was the feat of "Guarding" and "Sevastopol" (which Essen sank at great depths and, unlike the rest of the ships of the 1st squadron, he did not get as a trophy to the Japanese). There have always been feats, there are and will be. This is the cog in ideology, without which there is no hope of victory. And this must be taken into account.
    And if we do not take into account the real technical results of the battle at Chemulpo, then the people who died on the Varyag did not shed their blood in vain, because in the future it became a feat for ordinary people. It became the motive force for the moral stability of our people in the fight against the invaders. It is a fact.
    And I think that entering the battle arena itself, if you know in advance that you are doomed, outweighs the truth about the real results of the battle. Today we can say "if only, if only." But history does not know the subjunctive mood ...

    This is just my opinion. hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 1 February 2014 23: 42
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Rudnev's mistake is that he did not blow up the Varyag, as Belyaev did. Therefore, he was expelled from the Corps of Naval Officers.

      Rudnev, was so "expelled from the naval officers' corps" that he was entrusted to become the commander of the newest completed battleship "Andrew the First-Called". But in November 1905 Rudnev refused to take action against the "revolutionary" sailors of his crew, for which he was dismissed. The situation was such that the sailors of his crew did not make any revolutions, there was a gathering permitted by law. But Rudnev was ordered to "sort it out" as if it was almost an uprising and he refused.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 2 February 2014 00: 25
        +2
        May be. One does not interfere. I read about the version I presented. Perhaps another reason for Rudnev's disgrace is more correct - I will not argue. It is impossible to know everything. But again - the Japanese "Varyag" raised and rebuilt. What prevented the ship from at least to the depth? Nothing. Nothing prevented "Koreyets" from being blown up. In my understanding, the commander is obliged to take ALL measures to prevent the enemy from taking possession of the property in the future. We can talk about various objective and subjective factors that hindered this. BUT ... The commander on the ship is the last resort, everything is in his hands.
        Although we can only reason ... hi
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2014 00: 55
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          I read about the version that I outlined

          As far as I remember, this was expressed only by Chornovil / Abakus, and everything is so bad there ... You weren't systematic? Don Keys and Tim did excellent "debriefing" of Abacus's creativity, leaving no stone unturned.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          But again - the Japanese "Varyag" raised and rebuilt. What prevented the ship from at least to the depth? Nothing. Nothing prevented "Koreyets" from being blown up. In my understanding, the commander is obliged to take ALL measures to prevent the enemy from taking possession of property in the future

          It is difficult to say how Rudnev was guided in this situation. But it was quite obvious that after the flooding of the Varangian, any participation in the war that had begun was ruled out, and after the war ... well, who knew that we would lose?
          In general, there is a fact - the cruiser is flooded in shallow water. And I have big doubts about what it is worth blaming Rudnev on this, because reasonable reasons to stoke the cruiser that way in general were.
        2. Corsair
          Corsair 2 February 2014 06: 24
          0
          Quote: Rurikovich
          .What prevented the ship from taking at least to the depths?

          As far as I remember, the tiller compartment was broken on the Varyag and it could only describe the circulation ...
          And m aneuvering cars under fire is also a dubious "pleasure" ...
          An alternative to flooding is to detonate ammunition ... And who can say HOW MANY it remained in the cellars? The Koreans were "easier", they still have a SUFFICIENT stock of shells ...
          But on the cruiser the ammunition of the main caliber was used up, and the remaining could not be enough for the effective destruction of the ship ...
  • shurup
    shurup 1 February 2014 17: 18
    0
    An interesting female look with relevant emotions.
    Raising fragments of a cruiser is possible only with the permission of their owner and with the consent of local authorities. The contract must precede the work.
    Individuals and organizations can finance the lifting work. Addressing this issue to the budget is unacceptable. The fleet will help as much as it can.
    The right of priority purchase of fragments should belong to the TsVMM of Russia unconditionally, but not the obligation.
    I personally dream of a cruiser replicip using some original elements and parking in Chemulpo. But first you need to build a modern fleet. On a corvette it is better to chip in.
  • parus2nik
    parus2nik 1 February 2014 20: 10
    +1
    The Dozhd channel and the Echo of Moscow radio do not raise the question of whether it was necessary to surrender to the Varyag with the Korean .. or would they raise it elsewhere?
    1. tomket
      tomket 1 February 2014 21: 04
      +3
      Quote: parus2nik
      The Dozhd channel and the Echo of Moscow radio do not raise the question of whether it was necessary to surrender to the Varyag with the Korean .. or would they raise it elsewhere?

      For liberals, the time of Nikolai 2 is golden, for them there are no flaws.
  • tomket
    tomket 1 February 2014 21: 02
    +1
    Quote: mark1
    but apart from the incompetence of the commander and failure to fulfill the combat mission, I cannot give any other assessment of the actions of the cruiser "Varyag". Let me remind you that the combat mission of the Varyag and Koreets was - being part of the international forces, to guarantee the prevention of the landing of Japanese troops in the port of Chemulpo (that is, the guarantee of the sovereignty of Korea

    everyone imagines himself a strategist - seeing the battle from afar
  • askold
    askold 1 February 2014 21: 51
    +4
    More than a century has passed
    But we remember one verse,
    He is our symbol, he is our answer,
    An enemy who is already gone:
    "Send the sad news to the whole world to the seagulls,
    That we did not give up in battle, fell for the Russian honor,
    We didn’t lower the glorious Andreev flag before the enemy,
    We blew up the Koreyets ourselves, we flooded the Varyag.
    You can’t erase words from a song ...
    Well, to admire the modern missile cruiser Varyag, go to the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, in the section "virtual museums", there is also a photo and an interactive tour of the decks and bridges of the ship. All with a memorable date in the history of our navy.
  • Amateur
    Amateur 1 February 2014 22: 41
    0
    It is possible and necessary to study history in order to educate people in the best (I emphasize) traditions. For what? Guess for yourself. You can study and discuss all the rehearsals of the battle, although specialists in academies and headquarters will do it more professionally. But to ask the question "was there a feat?" For what? Or for what purpose? Just "browse" on the Internet, raise your profile, or "I can do everything and nothing will happen to me", or expose someone? Syndrome of the youth who has gained access to the previously forbidden? Let's grow up and educate these "youngsters", and let the intellect spilling outward be directed in the direction necessary for society and the country and for peaceful purposes. And not to challenge history with the heroic death of "Varyag".
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 2 February 2014 01: 27
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    it was expressed only at Chornovil / Abakus,

    The first time I've heard. Read from someone else hi
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    It is difficult to say how Rudnev was guided in this situation. But it was quite obvious that after the flooding of the Varangian, any participation in the war that had begun was ruled out, and after the war ... well, who knew that we would lose? In general, there is a fact - the cruiser is flooded in shallow water. And I have big doubts about what it is worth blaming Rudnev on this, because reasonable reasons to stoke the cruiser that way in general were

    A similar situation happened with Novik. There is a version that after the battle, the commander von Schultz ordered to sink the ship in shallow water. In order to further raise it and put it into operation. But who knew that we would lose and the southern part of Sakhalin would go to the Japanese. They were raised and introduced into their fleet. Basically, both made the same mistake - they didn't blow up their ships. Although no one denies the very fact of the feat. We are only talking about the consequences. And also about the moral and volitional qualities of the commander as such. But since there are few ideal people who know beforehand how the war will end when it starts, especially among the commanders of cruisers, then I I suggest leaving this history.
    1. Cristall
      Cristall 4 February 2014 01: 31
      +1
      Korsakovsky port was Russian. Schultz could have blown up and would have blown up if he had not been sure that he would remain Russian. He had no illusions, apparently the empire would lose to the Japanese.
      In general, Novik - this was really a masterpiece.
      My favorite ships are RYAV-Askold, Tsesarevich + Retvizan, and Novik! Yap-Mikas, Asam.
  • chehywed
    chehywed 2 February 2014 01: 59
    0
    on the Bygday peninsula, the museum where the Norwegians keep the Kon-Tiki raft on which Thor Heyerdahl swam across the Pacific Ocean, the Ra papyrus boat and reed "Tigris".

    On 30 of March 1978 of the year, having covered about 4,5 of thousands of kilometers over the 7 of the month, the Tigris entered the port of Djibouti. Having reached the last anchorage at one of the islands a few kilometers from the port of Djibouti, on 3 on April 1978 of the year, crew members removed all the expedition materials from the ship and set it on fire.
    In his open letter to the UN Secretary General Kurt Waldheim Heyerdahl, in particular, he wrote:
    “Today we are burning our proud little ship ... in protest against the manifestations of inhumanity in the 1978 world of the year in which we returned from the open sea ... etc.

    Hmm ...
  • Duke
    Duke 2 February 2014 05: 54
    +3
    Monument in Incheon
  • Duke
    Duke 2 February 2014 05: 57
    0
    Monument in Incheon
  • Duke
    Duke 2 February 2014 06: 09
    +1
    Monument in Scotland
  • Duke
    Duke 2 February 2014 08: 10
    0
    Brian Johnson-Burnet, Admiral of the Royal Navy of Britain: "This is an amazing feat. At the naval academies we teach the sailors of Her Majesty on the example of the Varyag - what is military prowess."
  • Crang
    Crang 2 February 2014 08: 44
    +1
    The article contains a number of inaccuracies, but since the author is a woman, this is forgivable. Firstly, with regard to speed. About the maximum 14uz is of course nonsense. Measurements of the Varyag's maximum speed, carried out shortly before the described events, showed a ceremonial 20,5uz - the result is certainly less than the passport one, but still not 14uz. Another thing is that, based on navigation conditions, it was fatal to accelerate in that place for more than 14 knots. By the way, the Japanese armored cruiser "Asama" by that time could not squeeze more than 18uz. As for valor, then the feat of "Varyag" is well promoted. Many ships both on that and in subsequent wars found themselves in much more deplorable situations. “Varyag” and “Koreets” went to fight against 14, but they did not fight to the end. The battle lasted about an hour, after which our ships retreated, after which they were blown up by the crews and flooded. This is normal, this is correct, and it should be, but there is nothing particularly cool about it.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2014 12: 18
      +1
      Quote: Krang
      Firstly, with regard to speed. About the maximum 14uz is of course nonsense. Measurements of the Varyag's maximum speed, carried out shortly before the described events, showed ceremonial 20,5uz - the result is certainly less than the passport one, but still not 14uz.

      It was in October 1903 r - and 20,5 knots (140 revolutions per minute) was the maximum speed of the ship, but already with 16 knots there were problems with bearings. Having repaired the bearings, in November the cruiser again went for testing, everything was fine at 80 rpm, but when trying to increase it to 130 rpm the bearings warmed up again. So in Chemulpo, the cruiser, apparently, could develop 14 bonds and 17 bonds - for a short time.
      Quote: Krang
      Another thing is that, based on navigational conditions, acceleration in that place more than 14 was a murder.

      In general, yes.
      Quote: Krang
      Many ships in that and subsequent wars found themselves in much more deplorable situations.

      for example?
      Quote: Krang
      “Varyag” and “Koreets” went to fight against 14, but they did not fight to the end.

      By the time the battle ended, the Varangian was no longer able to damage the enemy.
      1. Crang
        Crang 2 February 2014 13: 16
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        for example?

        EBR "Suvorov" - Russia.
        BRBO "Admiral Ushakov" - Russia.
        KRL "Svetlana" - Russia.
        KRB "Sharchnodst" - Germany.
        KRB "Gneisau" - Germany.
        KRB "Monmouth" - Britain.
        KRB "Good Hope" - Britain.
        EM DD-219 "Edsall" - USA.
        This is only a small part. And if you collect all the tugboats, minesweepers and bulk carriers that had to engage in combat with huge, heavily armed heavy cruisers, then not a dozen will be typed.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        By the time the battle ended, the Varangian was no longer able to damage the enemy.

        Well, how could not. I could. He still had a pair of 152mm and several 75mm guns. Torpedo tubes. Nearby was a slightly damaged Koreets with a pair of rather serious 203mm and one 152mm cannon. So they could. The guys just decided that they had enough for today. And they did the right thing in principle.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 2 February 2014 14: 56
          +1
          Quote: Krang
          EBR "Suvorov" - Russia.

          EBR "Suvorov" entered the battle with the enemy, who had 12 armored ships in line against 12 Russian armored ships. Yes, the Japanese were more experienced, but the Japanese did not have a global numerical superiority
          Quote: Krang
          BRBO "Admiral Ushakov" - Russia.

          In the main battle he fought in a line, died fighting with two armored cruisers. In general, the correlation was better than that of the Varyag, although Ushakov with his shot guns did not have a chance either
          Quote: Krang
          KRL "Svetlana" - Russia.

          Killed in battle with two enemy cruisers
          Quote: Krang
          KRB "Sharchnodst" - Germany.
          KRB "Gneisau" - Germany.

          The Falklands had 5 German cruisers, English 7, and the superiority of the Invincibles over the ShiG was hardly greater than that of Asama over the Varyag
          Quote: Krang
          KRB "Monmouth" - Britain.
          KRB "Good Hope" - Britain.

          Two British armored cruisers actually leaked the battle to two German armored cruisers. If you count all the ships, then there will be 3 against German 5 (I don’t take Otranto into account)
          Quote: Krang
          EM DD-219 "Edsall" - USA.

          This one - yes, I agree, although how was his situation worse than that of the Varangian?
          Quote: Krang
          Well, how could he not. Could. He still had a pair of 152mm and several 75mm guns

          Look at the roll of the Varangian after the battle. (I’ll try to insert a photo) You can shoot with such a roll, but to get there is no longer
          1. Crang
            Crang 2 February 2014 16: 04
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This one - yes, I agree, although how was his situation worse than that of the Varangian?

            Just a small trifle - the fact that, unlike the "Varyag", he could not move away, land the team ashore and safely disappear into the depths of the sea. Unlike "Varyag" he could: a) Surrender. b) Die. And this applies to ALL the ships I have listed. No need to tell how they started the battle, tell how they ended it and just compare the losses. When the Suvorov, turned into floating ruins, repulsed the last attack in its life (with two 75mm cannons and 7,62mm rifles for the surviving crew members), it had much less chances than the Varyag in option 2 against 14. Or rather their "Suvorov" did not have it at all. That is why I say that the situation with the Varyag was pretty common. No more heroic than the breakthrough of the Spanish semi-armored cruiser from Santiago in 1898 under fire from several heavy US battleships.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 07: 30
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              No need to tell how they started the battle, tell how they ended it and simply compare the losses.

              You have an interesting idea. You wrote
              Quote: Krang
              As for valor, then the feat of "Varyag" is well promoted. Many ships both on that and in subsequent wars found themselves in much more deplorable situations

              But at the same time you propose to evaluate valor "by how you finished the battle and what losses you suffered." Don't you yourself understand that this is silly? In your opinion, it turns out, for example, that the Americans off the island of Savo (mediocrely losing 4 cruisers) showed just the same fierce heroism - after all, the battle ended with the death of their ships and more than 1000 dead?
              No one argues that the teams of the same “Suvorov” and “Monmouth” fought with dignity. But to say that the same "Monmouth" was more valiant than "Varyag" is impossible. Yes, "Monmouth" did not have a shore on which to land a team, so what of that? "Monmouth" tried to get out of the battle, and when he failed - he took the fight and died. Varyag had the opportunity to leave, and I absolutely do not see how this belittles his feat.
              Quote: Krang
              When the Suvorov, turned into floating ruins, repulsed the last attack in its life (with two 75mm cannons and 7,62mm rifles for the surviving crew members), it had much less chances than the Varyag in option 2 against 14. Or rather their "Suvorov" did not have it at all.

              The Varangian in the 2 version against 14 had no chance. Moreover, the Varangian had no chance at first, but Suvorov did have them. What does not diminish the valor of his sailors
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 2 February 2014 11: 25
    +1
    Quote: Corsair
    As far as I remember, the tiller compartment was broken on the Varyag and it could only describe the circulation ...

    If he had already returned to the roadstead on his own, then there was no problem to move away from the coast. Even the same "Korean" could be towed.
    Quote: Corsair
    And who will say how MUCH he was left there in the cellars?

    Ammunition consumption was pretty exaggerated. At the time of the battle, 5-10% of hits were considered normal. Even if we take it to the maximum, then of the declared 1000 spent shells, 100 were hit, there were many times more casualties and damage. What is NOT. Therefore, it is logical to draw conclusions either about the overestimated consumption of shells, or about a very low quality of fire. Those. practically into the air.
    Once again I say that no one disputes the fact of a feat. The technical details of this feat are disputed.
    1. Crang
      Crang 2 February 2014 17: 43
      0
      Fine. Varyag fired 1105 rounds of all calibers. Most of them were 75mm caliber. Considering the very heavy damage to the Asama and some other ships, plus a couple of sunken destroyers, the Varyag achieved about 100 hits.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 2 February 2014 19: 36
        +1
        Yes, "Asama" did not receive heavy injuries. In a couple of days she was already near Port Arthur. And no destroyer was killed at Chemulpo. How long it is possible to pour myths from empty to empty! For the fourth time I will repeat - THERE WAS A FEAT! "Varyag" went out to battle with adversaries, fought heroically, no one denies this! But the bitter truth is that he did not inflict such damage on the Japanese as is attributed. And did not sink the destroyers. Check out any Japanese details of this fight and squad losses and see for yourself. It's just that empty chatter about sunken ships is already starting to tire. Or is it in our country that if there was a feat, then the corresponding bells and whistles in the form of a sunken tonnage are also necessary for the feat? Enough lies already. There was a feat, there was heroism, there were victims. It is honored and praised. BUT there were not a thousand shells fired, there were no destroyers sunk.
        EVERYTHING.
        1. Crang
          Crang 2 February 2014 20: 10
          0
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Discover any Japanese info about this fight.

          Sorry, but I'm used to operating sources on both sides.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 07: 49
            +1
            Quote: Krang
            Sorry, but I'm used to operating sources on both sides.

            Sources from both sides - from the Russian side this is Rudnev’s report on the battle, where he directly writes that his data on the losses of the Japanese were compiled according to rumors and opinions of commanders of foreign inpatients. As for the Japanese, it is becoming more and more complicated, generally speaking a few hits (if they did not cause the need for a large repair, which could easily have happened with our not-so-well-exploding shells) they could have calmed down.
            In theory, the destroyer could have been sunk (hiding the death of the destroyer is not a problem, although I must say enthusiasts looked for it later on at the bottom - they didn’t find serious damage to the Japanese cruisers - otherwise there would have been at least some infa (at least the documents shipyard for repair) but it is not
  • Pamir210
    Pamir210 2 February 2014 11: 37
    +4
    it’s funny that they scolded the Americans, but forgot to mention those who signed the acceptance certificate
    1. Crang
      Crang 2 February 2014 13: 18
      0
      You probably never signed once you say so. Money and interests decide everything. They made me sign. With the wording "eliminate minor flaws during operation."
      1. Pamir210
        Pamir210 2 February 2014 16: 56
        0
        let you not judge others ...
        I’m not talking about
        1. Crang
          Crang 2 February 2014 17: 10
          0
          Yes, exactly about that. Those who sign such acts are not free people. There are tons of ways to get them to sign such an act. And vodka with a hearty snack is just one of them. In general, this is a technique of the late 19th, early 20th century, what do you want? There, almost every sample had one or another jambs, or even several. For some reason, everyone immediately begins to blame the technology, delve into its details, forgetting about people. "Varyag" with all its shortcomings at the time of that battle was considered one of the best cruisers of the 18st rank in the world. The Japanese did not have such. And so yes - he had congenital defects and shoals. Excuse me, but "Asama" is that the ideal armored cruiser where everything worked like a Swiss watch? No. His cars were also unsuccessful and more than 18,5-203 oz of a cruiser of this type never accelerated in life, and this is practically the level of a squadron battleship. Further - two paired XNUMXmm gun mounts in the aft niches of which part of the ammunition was stored. Naturally, without such trifles as knockout panels and a firewall. How do you like it? And poor seaworthiness almost ruled out the use of casemate, medium-caliber installations in any fresh weather. In general, in terms of the technical level, the opponents were then quite worth each other.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 07: 52
      +1
      At the time of the signing of the act, "Varyag" was still in order and generally met the customer's requirements. But during operation it quickly became clear that its mechanisms were unreliable. At acceptance, of course, this could not be established
  • Sour
    Sour 2 February 2014 12: 33
    +1
    several shots sank a Japanese destroyer, fired at the cruiser "Takachiho" (which sank later),

    There was no such destroyer.
    All destroyers from the Uriu detachment (Chidori, Kasasagi, Hayabusa, Manazuru, Aotaka, Hato, Kari and Tsubame) were excluded from the fleet lists in the period 1919-1923. All of them fought the Russo-Japanese War to the end.
    And the cruiser Takachiho (which sank later) actually sank much later. He was sunk in battle with the German fleet in 1914, during the 1st World War.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 2 February 2014 22: 10
      +1
      + from me for sobriety of judgments. What is welcomed unlike some other members of the forum, stubbornly repeating the official version without including brains.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 2 February 2014 14: 41
    +2
    By the way, they remembered about the skillful actions of KL "Koreets"! And "Varyag" - even if it was a myth embellished in details (and not a reality!), This myth both before and now continues to be a powerful motivator "DO NOT GIVE UP EVEN IN AN ENDLESS SITUATION!"
  • Crang
    Crang 2 February 2014 16: 29
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    EBR "Suvorov" entered the battle with the enemy, who had 12 armored ships in line against 12 Russian armored ships. Yes, the Japanese were more experienced, but the Japanese did not have a global numerical superiority

    In general, the superiority was with us. The Japanese of the 12 armored ships, only 4 were full-fledged battleships. The rest are armored cruisers rather weak by battleship standards.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 08: 50
      +1
      Quote: Krang
      In general, the superiority was with us. The Japanese of the 12 armored ships, only 4 were full-fledged battleships. The rest are armored cruisers rather weak by battleship standards.

      laughing Well you give.
      4 EBRs of the Suvorov type in terms of technical level were quite consistent with the Japanese EBRs, although there were not too obvious nuances - for example, because of the differences between one of our EBRs from others (and they were traditionally built for the Russian fleet "slightly" differing) they were almost not suitable for joint maneuvering - after turning, the formation was completely broken due to the difference in trajectories.
      "Oslyabya" is the only advantage of this EBR over the "Asamoids" - the 254-mm main caliber was an imaginary advantage. Something was very wrong with ours and 254-mm guns. For example, in the battle in the Yellow Sea, the accuracy of the Russians 12 "was almost 3,5%, but 10" - only 1,78%. Otherwise, "Oslyabya" lost to the Asamoids in almost everything - although the thickness of the armor belt of the Russian EBR was larger, but there was little sense in this, since the armor on the Asamoids was placed much more rationally, the Japanese had more six-inch guns in the side salvo, the speed was about the same or higher, the high-gradeness of the Russian EBR made it a better target. So it is very difficult to say that "Oslyabya" was superior to the Asamoid, and even if so, then this superiority was small
      "Sisoy" - this one, of course, surpassed the Asamoids - four turret 305-mm / 40 - not a joke. But taking into account the low speed, only three 152-mm cannons in an onboard salvo and unarmored extremities - in general, even taking into account all this, it was still superior :)
      "Navarin" - but this EBR did not surpass the Asamoids unambiguously - the old 305-mm / 35, capable of firing no more than 1 time in 2,5 minutes at less than 50 kbt, were no longer a weighty argument, everything else (rationality of booking, medium artillery , speed) Navarin was inferior to the Asamoids.
      "Admiral Nakhimov" - was unconditionally inferior to the Asamoids. Old artillery, low muzzle velocity and, accordingly, low armor penetration. even a light 90 kg projectile did not reach 50 kbt. The speed is lower than that of the Asamoids, the extremities are unarmored.
      Nicholas I - is still worse than with Navarino. The 305-mm / 30 gun was still older than the Navarin ones and fired once more than 4 minutes, plus a short range.
      BRBO "Ushakov", "Apraksin" and "Senyavin" - being half the size of Asamoid plus heavily shot 254-mm guns (before being sent to the Far East they served in an artillery detachment, gunners for the entire fleet learned from them), obviously, they could not be considered equal to the Japanese armored cruisers.
      In total, according to the new EBRs - approximate equality, "oslyabya" and "Sisoy" have some superiority over the Japanese airborne missile systems, Navarin and Nikolay are inferior to the Asamoids in all respects except the 305 guns, but since they are very old, they obviously do not save the situation - at best they can be counted as the equivalent of a BRKR. Nakhimov and BRBO are obviously inferior to the Japanese BRKR
      And where is the superiority?
      1. Crang
        Crang 3 February 2014 18: 45
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well you give.

        Still with such a chuckle, as if before me the truth of last resort.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        4 EBRs of the "Suvorov" type in terms of technical level were quite consistent with the Japanese EBRs,

        4 EBRs of "Suvorov" type were superior to Japanese EBRs. More or less only the newest Mikasa could match them. The rest were weaker. "Fuji" and generally on the level of "Sisoya the Great".
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        due to the differences between one of our EDRs from others (and they were traditionally built for the Russian fleet with "slightly" different

        It’s like that for everyone. 4 Japanese EBRs differed even more from each other than the Borodino series. I will surprise and shock you. And now almost all large ships are built the same way. For example, all Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers of the "Kiev" type were somewhat different from each other. There is no need to attribute non-existent shortcomings to our EDR. Pay better attention to the cretins who were on their captain's bridges.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        "Oslyabya" is the only advantage of this EBR over "asamoids"

        What nonsense. For anyone as you say "Asamozoid", our "Oslyabya" one on one is death. The armor on the Asams was placed usually... Moreover, it was poorly suited to withstand battleship 10-12 "shells.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        "Navarin" - but this EBR did not surpass the Asamoids unambiguously - the old 305-mm / 35, capable of firing no more than 1 time in 2,5 minutes at less than 50 kbt, were no longer a weighty argument, everything else (rationality of booking, medium artillery , speed) Navarin was inferior to the Asamoids.

        Not in any way. The Navarin was armored in an all-or-nothing dreadnought scheme. The citadel with armor up to 406mm thick was just concrete. The speed of 15,8uz (14-15uz in real life) was not much less than that of "Asam" which, due to unsuccessful cars, in reality could not accelerate more than 18-18,5uz (according to the manual from 20 to 22,1uz). As for artillery, the 305mm / L35 "Navarina" could fire at 54kbt, which is not much inferior to the 203mm / L40 "Asam" (60-65kbt, depending on the type of ammunition). In addition, the 305mm / L35 guns of the "Navarina" had 2,1 times the muzzle energy and 3 times heavier shells. In general, despite the higher rate of fire of Japanese KRBs and a greater number of medium-caliber cannons in a one-on-one duel with Navarin, Asama will most likely die. Only our weakest EBR "Nikolai-I" can really be compared with these cruisers.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Total

        Total:
        - 4 EDRs of "Borodino" type significantly exceed 4 Japanese EDRs.
        - "Oslyabya" and "Sisoy Velikiy" are also still EBRs at that time and are much more powerful than the Japanese KRBs.
      2. Crang
        Crang 3 February 2014 18: 45
        0
        - "Navarin" in terms of combat also has superiority over "Asams", although it is no longer obvious.
        - "Nikolai-I" somewhere on the level of the Japanese KRB. All the same, thick armor and 2-305mm, 4-229mm and 8-152mm are solid arguments. By the way, in fact, this particular ship turned out to be the most effective shooter.
        - 3 BRBOs could be a powerful strike group, but then I agree with you - failed artillery failed. At the same time, their 226 kg shells were a dangerous hotel.
        - The KRB "Admiral Nakhimov" was inferior to the Japanese KRB in terms of protection and mobility, but in terms of artillery it was comparable. Its old age was compensated for by its extraordinary capacity: 8-203mm and 10-152mm - at the level of the Baltimore MRT (laughing).
        Here is the superiority. Another thing is that because of the complete inadequacies at the helm:
        - did not even make an elementary battle plan.
        - did not know how to maneuver and purposefully did not maneuver.
        - did not use a solid reserve of speed, but trailed at a speed of 9 knots under hurricane fire. Although they could 13-14uz, which would immediately limit the freedom of maneuvering the Japanese.
        - almost did not conduct artillery exercises and therefore fired extremely poorly and inaccurately. The officers did not bother to normally study the central aiming and fire control system of the EDB during the campaign. They also did not develop any coordination scheme for the fire of several ships. Instead, they preferred to spend time walking along the bridges or in the wardroom with a glass of wine.
        - rudely violated the rules of operation of ships, overloading them in the most criminal way.
        - did not take any measures to prepare the ships for battle.
        A paradoxical situation arose. The huge squadron moved extremely slowly, but at the same time, the paradox was adapted only for moving, not for battle.
        A logical question arises. As Stalin used to say: "You du * ak or the enemy." All these Christmas, Witgeft, Starks looking like overdressed roosters in gilded uniforms - were they downright idiots? Or traitors who deliberately merged a super-powerful fleet into the enemy? They were neither the one nor the other. These were people of a certain kind of ability. Those that were in demand by the rotten through and through the tsarist system of corrupt servitude and craving for a beautiful life. Unfortunately, there was no ability to fight among them. In order for the entire war to be "pulled out" by purely equipment alone, without any participation of the command personnel in its actions (or even with participation interfering and harmful to the situation), you need to have equipment that is superior to the enemy's equipment for a couple of generations. In other words, three 10-year-old idiots can defeat the German Tiger tank only if they are on the T-72B. Of course, we did not have such an overwhelming superiority under Tsushima. But superiority, which would allow victory with proper combat training, the technical condition of the ships (it is not the ships themselves that are to blame, but the same Rozhdestvensky) and competent planning of the battle.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 22: 27
          +1
          Quote: Krang
          Still with such a chuckle, as if before me the truth of last resort

          Nope. The truth in the last resort, I obviously do not pull. In general, I know pretty little the history of the REV. The trouble is that you do not seem to understand it at all. And here is the first evidence of this:
          Quote: Krang
          4 EBRs of "Suvorov" type were superior to Japanese EBRs.

          EBRs of the "Suvorov" type by no means could surpass the Japanese EBRs.
          Firstly, our EBRs were much inferior to the power of artillery - the Obukhov 305-mm / 40 arr 1895, which was the main weapon of our battleships, was much inferior to the British 305-mm ones that were on the Japanese battleships. First of all, in such an important parameter as the rate of fire - as a result, the fire performance of our EBRs was almost twice as low as the Japanese. In the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Russian EBR fired 344 12 "shells (of which the Tsarevich - 104), the Japanese - 603 (ie, about 150 per brother), and this despite the fact that the Japanese lost 5 twelve-inch barrels from premature explosions of shells ! Battleship "Eagle" for the entire Tsushima fired 52 XNUMX-inch shells.
          The same is with the 152-mm turret guns - medium-caliber turrets at that time turned out to be too crude technical innovation. For example, the same "Tsarevich" in the yellow sea fired 509 six-inch shells, "Mikasa" - more than a thousand. No matter how beautiful the 6 "towers looked on paper, the casemate six-inches were preferable in battle.
          Formally, the speed of the Russian EBRs was one knot less than the Japanese ones, in fact, on the same Borodino, the eccentrics were inadmissibly warmed up at 14 knots during the acceptance tests, and to Tsushima to reach speeds over 11, maybe 13 knots, our battleships were categorically contraindicated.
          The armor of our EDBs was inferior in thickness to the Japanese ones, but due to the large area of ​​the armored side it really stood up to the Japanese high-explosive shells. Although the Japanese, contrary to popular belief, widely used armor-piercing shells, they were of disgusting quality.
          As Rozhestvensky reported, when trying to turn, the newest battleships turned in succession into the forest, some for firewood - different circulation diameters led to the fact that the EBRs were 1-2 kbt to the right or to the left of the head Suvorov course.
          So, there can be no question of any superiority of our EDBs over Japanese ones - if we compare their REAL capabilities and not paper TTX.
          Quote: Krang
          I will surprise and shock you

          You do this all the time. But this can hardly be a reason for pride :)
          Quote: Krang
          Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers of the "Kiev" type were somewhat different from each other.

          Well, you opened my eyes right laughing One small nuance - cruisers of the "Kiev" type did not need to fight in formation. And I will tell you one little military secret - despite the fact that the Japanese battleships were of different types, their circulation radius differed less than that of the Russians of the same type.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 22: 29
            +1
            Quote: Krang
            No need to attribute to our EDB nonexistent flaws. Pay better attention to the cretins that were on their captain’s bridges.

            You shouldn't call those who died on Suvorov, Alexander and Borodino nerds. Yes, and the commander of the Eagle received a mortal wound. Such "discoveries" do you no credit
            Quote: Krang
            What nonsense. For anyone as you say "Asamozoid", our "Oslyabya" one on one is death. The armor on the Asams was usually placed. Moreover, to resist battleship 10-12 "shells, it was poorly suited

            laughing Well, why would, eh? :) The "Oslyabi" - 254-mm guns fired once every one and a half to two minutes. The 254-mm projectile did not penetrate the main armor belt of the Asamoids already from 30 kbt. And taking into account the fact that behind it also the bevel of the armored deck ... In other words, an asamoid with 35-40 kbt could calmly shoot Oslyabyu with high-explosive shells (by the way, 203-mm guns fired two rounds per minute), which, although not They pierced it with the GBP, but could have drowned it, destroying the unarmored extremities - Oslyabya would have responded with rare 254-mm shots that could not penetrate the Asamoid's GBP! At 35-40 kbt, the 254-mm armor-piercing one could no longer inflict critical damage on the asamoid, and the bombardment with mines was futile due to the low rate of fire and the armor belt at the ends of the Japanese.
            Quote: Krang
            The Navarin was armored in an all-or-nothing dreadnought scheme.

            Firstly, "all or nothing" stood only on American dreadnoughts designed for long-range combat in perfect visibility. The Americans went for "all or nothing" for the simple reason that it is unrealistic to provide a mass of hits with mines from a long distance. And the Americans themselves subsequently abandoned "all or nothing". And secondly, against the mass of high-explosive shells, "all or nothing" is a guaranteed death. During the entire war, the Japanese did not have a single confirmed penetration of armor with a thickness of more than 76 mm. Only once in the Yellow Sea was the "plug" of the 229th armor knocked out, but the shell did not pass inside. This did not stop the Japanese from sinking our ships.
            Quote: Krang
            As for artillery, the 305mm / L35 "Navarina" could fire at 54kbt,

            Yeah. Ask more about what kind of armor they could penetrate on 54 kbt. I’ll even tell you - the 305-mm / 40 shell on the 40 KBt did not penetrate the 160-mm Krupp armor. The whole problem is that with the 40-45 KBT, the asamoid could bombard our old EDBs with guns, incapacitating guns, setting fires and piercing their ends, which could result in the death of the ship, while our old 305-mm could hardly cause decisive damage with their armor-piercing shells at such distances.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 22: 30
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              The KRB "Admiral Nakhimov" was inferior to the Japanese KRB in terms of protection and mobility, but in terms of artillery it was comparable.

              Oh, wei. Those. Are you seriously claiming that the 6 of our 203 mm / 35 with their Vo = 663 m / s for 90 kg of projectile and unclear rate of fire (manual feed!) Were more equal than the Japanese tower 4 with Vo = 763 m / s for 113 kg of projectile? And ten of our 152-mm guns, with their rate of fire of 1 rounds / min, standing without any armor protection - the 14 level to the Japanese speed gunners of which 10 in casemates and 4 behind shields? And that Nakhimov’s guns fired black powder - is that all the same?
              Yes, you just opened my eyes to the world! laughing
              Quote: Krang
              Another thing is that because of the complete inadequacies at the helm

              I repeat, do not scatter these words. You do not know the history of the REV to make such judgments
              Quote: Krang
              didn't even make up an elementary battle plan.

              Well, for example - you are in the place of Christmas. What battle plan would you make up?
              Quote: Krang
              could not maneuver and purposefully did not maneuver

              The "special properties" of our battleships, which I have already mentioned above, interfered with maneuvering. Plus, Rozhestvensky did not have any special opportunities for training the squadron, although he tried to conduct maneuvers.
              Quote: Krang
              We didn’t use a solid reserve of speed, but weaved at 9 speed under heavy fire. Although they could have 13-14uz, which would immediately limit the freedom of maneuvering the Japanese.

              Your discussion about 13-14 speed knots is very funny, especially if you remember that for example Sisoy the Great, on the transition from Madagascar to Camrong (28 days) with an average speed of about 7 knots, had 12 (in words - TWELVE) breakdowns in the car and 4 steering breakdowns management. In general, even the latest EDBs could no longer develop 13 and 14 bonds - only with the danger of machine failure. At the same time, pre-war training of artillerymen was carried out at a speed ... 9-11 knots. Those. going forward precisely at this speed, Rozhdestvensky gave the best opportunities to his gunners.
              Quote: Krang
              almost did not conduct artillery exercises and therefore fired extremely poorly and inaccurately

              Firstly, for conducting artillery shells are needed, which were not. Secondly, surprisingly, Rozhestvensky’s ships fired significantly better than 1TOE.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 22: 35
                +1
                Quote: Krang
                The officers did not bother to normally study the central aiming and fire control system of the EDB during the campaign.

                There was no "centralized fire control system" on our EBRs. Take the trouble to read the same Platonov - then you will understand that it was possible to talk about the centralization of fire only after the appearance of Geisler's instruments of 1911.
                Quote: Krang
                We also did not develop any coordination scheme for the fire of several ships.

                This is already a complete epic. The Black Sea EBRs after the RYAV under the leadership of Tsyvinsky broke into a cake, practicing brigade fire, and ... could never use it in combat conditions. And then - "not developed". What a beauty.
                Quote: Krang
                flagrantly violated the rules of operation of ships, overloading them in the most criminal way.

                Another myth. The Russian EDB were NOT overwhelmed. Overloaded with coal beyond measure were (do not believe) JAPANESE ships.
                Quote: Krang
                did not take any measures to prepare the ships for battle.

                Yeah. Do not read Novikov-Priboy on the night.
                Quote: Krang
                A logical question arises. As Stalin said: "You du * ak or the enemy"

                Another question arises, or rather, an urgent advice. Engage in materiel. For the time being, you have a perception of the REV at the level of Soviet agitation.
                1. Crang
                  Crang 3 February 2014 23: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  There was no "centralized fire control system" on our EBRs. Take the trouble to read the same Platonov - then you will understand that it was possible to talk about the centralization of fire only after the appearance of Geisler's instruments of 1911.

                  THERE WAS a kid. But Geisler's instruments have nothing to do with the central aiming. These are just centralized fire control devices. There were those on "Borodintsy". There were not only DM-6 prototypes, but FA-2.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Another myth. The Russian EDB were NOT overwhelmed. Overloaded with coal beyond measure were (do not believe) JAPANESE ships.

                  Yes yes yes yes wow how did you sing. Write ischo.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 07: 40
                    +1
                    Quote: Krang
                    THERE WAS a kid. But Geisler's devices have nothing to do with central aiming; they are just devices for centralized fire control. There were those on "Borodintsy". There were not only DM-6 prototypes, but FA-2.

                    laughing To learn materiel, urgently :)
                    Borodinians (as well as on other modern ships of the fleet) had an 1899 IC launcher, which was an almost exact copy of an 1893 / 1894 launcher (which, in turn, was not much different from an 1876 launcher) A distinct feature of this launcher was the lack of countable -decision devices. Therefore, it was IMPOSSIBLE to conduct a centralized artillery fire with the help of the ICE. In fact, just before the REV, the Russian fleet refused centralized fire control and decentralized it. The functions of the artillery officer were reduced to the transfer of the ORIGINAL value of the course angles and range to the target, and then gunners worked. It looked something like this - at first the glavart determined the parameters of the fire, then these parameters were confirmed by shooting with one or two guns, with the visibility of the cover the glavart commanded a general opening of the fire, and subsequently gunners corrected the shooting. That is why, and for this, optical sights on guns acquired a special role. The Japanese Navy was about the same.
                    In 1903, the flagship artilleryman Grevenitz tried to introduce on the Vladivostok cruisers an analogue of modern fire control - "fork" sighting and transition to rapid fire to cover the target. It turned out that without calculating devices, the chief artist simply does not have time to adjust the fire - the volume of calculations is too large. Therefore, before the appearance of the Geisler PUS, arr 1911, in which the magnitude of the change in the distance to the target, the elevation angle and the individual correction for the wear of the gun barrel and, finally, the sight were calculated automatically based on the entered data on the courses, the speeds of the ships and the constant measurement of the distance between them, there was no question of any centralized leads.
                    Quote: Krang
                    Yes yes yes yes wow how did you sing. Write ischo.

                    I’ll write, I will write :) About the overload of Japanese EDB, as I understand it, we hear for the first time? :)
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Crang
                Crang 3 February 2014 23: 48
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Oh, wei. Those. Are you seriously claiming that 6 of our 203 mm / 35 with their Vo = 663 m / s for 90 kg of projectile and unclear rate of fire (manual feed!) Were more than 4 tower Japanese women with Vo = 763 m / s for 113 kg of projectile?

                Firstly, not 6, but 8. Secondly, also tower. Thirdly, at the expense of manual filing - filing or loading darling? So in the "cool" Japanese turret installation, the shells were loaded using hand hoists suspended under the roof. "Nakhimov" had at least some loading mechanisms already.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Your reasoning about 13-14 knots of speed is very funny, especially if you remember that for example Sisoy the Great on the transition from Madagascar to Camrong (28 days) with an average speed of about 7 knots had 12 (in words - TWELVE) breakdowns in the car and 4 breakdowns of the steering management.

                And the Japanese swam at all, no problem, huh? Without a single sneeze?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Secondly, surprisingly, Rozhestvensky’s ships fired significantly better than 1TOE

                Significantly worse.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 08: 46
                  +1
                  Quote: Krang
                  Firstly, not 6, but 8.

                  In the airborne salvo - 6. Vs 4 Japanese
                  Quote: Krang
                  Secondly, also tower.

                  Ah, also tower ...
                  Quote: Krang
                  Thirdly, at the expense of manual feeding - feeding or loading darling?

                  Read here http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1995_02/07.htm
                  Turret turning drives and ammunition supply - manual

                  Firstly - if I write "feed" it means exactly "feed". Secondly, the Japanese towers had electric, hydraulic and manual drives, the last two were spare. "Also towers" - only manual drive. The Japanese women still had an elevator. "also towers"
                  Ammunition on carts was delivered to airborne installations along a longitudinal corridor on the lower deck under belt protection.

                  Quote: Krang
                  "Nakhimov" then at least some loading mechanisms were already in place.

                  Yeah? Which ones, for example? :)
                  Quote: Krang
                  And the Japanese swam at all, no problem, huh? Without a single sneeze?

                  And the Japanese EDB calmly held 14-16 bonds without fear of damage to cars. That's it.
                  Quote: Krang
                  Significantly worse.

                  wassat Your militant ignorance strikes every imagination.
                  Fight in the Yellow Sea. After the Japanese were forced to catch up with the Russian squadron (in the second phase), they found themselves in extremely disadvantageous firing conditions - the head Mikasa was located to the right of the Russian formation approximately on the traverse of Pobeda (or Peresvet? I don't remember exactly) at a distance of 40 kbt, later the distance decreased. In other words, "Mikasa" proudly lane opposite the middle of the Russian system, thereby creating an excellent opportunity for the Russians to concentrate fire on themselves - ALL ships of the Russian line could shoot at it. At the same time, Mikasa was already damaged (in the first phase, at least 3 12 "shells, one 10" and at least one 6 "). Since the speed of the Japanese surpassed the Russians, the Mikasa gradually pulled up, reaching the traverse of the Tsesarevich. ...
                  The battle in the second phase lasted almost 2 hours. Russian ships fired mainly at Mikasa (he received 23 hits for the entire battle in the Yellow Sea, the rest of the EBR and Nissin and Kassuga in total caught only 8-9 shells)
                  Thus, simple arithmetic suggests that, being in almost perfect conditions, the six Russian EDBs reached no more than 18 hits in the flagship. In two hours
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 08: 47
                    +1
                    In Tsushima, in the first 15 minutes, being in a disgusting position ("Mikasa" "cut" the course of the Russian squadron, EBRs of the "Suvorov" type could shoot at "Mikasa" only from the bow towers, "Eagle" was out of action for some time, in general For the first 15 minutes "Mikase" was fired by 4 EBRs "Suvorov", "Oslyabya" and, possibly, "Navarin", the distance is still the same 40 kbt approximately)
                    Nevertheless, for the first 15 minutes of the battle, according to the information from Captain Pakenham's report, RN, given by Campbell NJ in the article “The Battle of Tsushima” by Warship International, 1978 No. 5-8, for fifteen minutes, from 14: 10 to 14: 25, Mikasa was hit by five 12 "and fourteen 6" shells.
                    If the Witgeft ships fired as well, for the Japanese everything would end in the Yellow Sea.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Crang
              Crang 3 February 2014 23: 56
              0
              For such distances, we had high-explosive shells.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Firstly, "all or nothing" was only on American dreadnoughts,

              So you just don't know what all or nothing is. "Navarin" is a typical representative of just such a booking scheme.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 08: 57
                +1
                Quote: Krang
                For such distances, we had high-explosive shells

                There were NO HE shells on the Russian ships. High-explosive - were. But given the fact that they were high-explosive only in name, and the content of explosives in them was less than in Japanese armor-piercing ones, it would not be a mistake to say that there were no high-explosive shells on Russian ships at all. Here I can still be mistaken, but in my opinion our "high-explosive" fuses stood with the same slowdown as the armor-piercing ones.
                Quote: Krang
                So you just don’t know what all or nothing is.

                where am I
                Quote: Krang
                Navarin "is a typical representative of just such a booking scheme.

                M-d ...
                You wrote to us
                Quote: Krang
                Not in any way. Navarin was booked by dreadnought all-or-nothing scheme

                Generally speaking, completely illiterate - what kind of "dreadnought" schemes in the era of the EBR? But I understood your idea, so I did not find fault, but answered
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Firstly, "all or nothing" stood only on American dreadnought

                You write now
                Quote: Krang
                ... "Navarin" is a typical representative of just such a booking scheme.

                Those. keep insisting that "navarin" is a dreadnought laughing
                Yes, even call it an aircraft carrier, the point is that booking "all or nothing" against the Japanese tactics of throwing mines with 40 kbt could not protect.
          2. Crang
            Crang 3 February 2014 23: 37
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Nope. The truth in the last resort, I obviously do not pull. In general, I know pretty little the history of the REV. The trouble is that you do not seem to understand it at all. And here is the first evidence of this:

            You do not understand. But you’re flogging Andrey’s nonsense.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Firstly, our EDBs were much inferior to the power of artillery - the Obukhov gun 305 mm / 40 arr 1895, which was the main weapon of our armadillos, was much inferior to the British 305 mm standing on Japanese armadillos.

            Much inferior? Tin ... strongly spoken. By what parameters was it significantly inferior? For example, our 305mm / L40 cannon surpassed the Japanese 305mm / L40 by 4% in terms of ultimate armor penetration. Muzzle energy was inferior by 6%, but had a greater resource and better accuracy. This concerns the 305mm / L40 Mikasa and other new ones. The 305mm / L40 "Fuji" was inferior to our cannon in all respects.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            First of all, in terms of such an important parameter as rate of fire - as a result, the fire performance of our EDB was almost twice as inferior to the Japanese.

            Yah. Firstly, not in two. Secondly, this time did not matter because the time of aiming and aiming was even longer (had to be done after each volley) And what Japanese? For example, the 305mm Fuji cannon could only be loaded when rotated along the center plane of the ship. As a result, the rate of fire was worse than that of the Nikolai-I (2,5-minute salvo). Didn't you know that by writing me such nonsense? Yes, and you gave the numbers here. How many 12 "Russian battleships have fired." Eagle "is like 52. Well, God bless him. Especially considering that the muzzle of one bow gun blew him off almost immediately, and the stern gun mount often turned out to be outside the firing angles. But why you Did you not provide data on the Japanese? I will give you for you. For the entire Tsushima battle, all Japanese battleships fired a total of 446 12 "shells. Approximately 110 per ship. The result is quite comparable with ours, especially since the Japanese were constantly working all over the board. But your data is not correct. "Eagle" only fired 120 12 "shells (60 volleys) only with its stern unit - at the time of delivery, only four shots remained in it. Andrey -" Eagle "fired 52 12" shells only bow mount.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 09: 36
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              But you’re flogging Andrei’s nonsense.

              Aha laughing
              Quote: Krang
              For example, in terms of ultimate armor penetration, our 305mm / L40 gun exceeded the Japanese 305mm / L40 by 4%

              Yeah - at a distance of 10 kbt. But on the 20 KBT, the Japanese artillery system already had an advantage. Go read Titushkin or something, for starters.
              Quote: Krang
              Muzzle energy inferior to 6%, but had a longer resource and better accuracy

              The most important thing in which our 305-mm / 40 was inferior was in the rate of fire - ours shot once every one and a half or two imnuts, Japanese women - every 40-60 seconds. As a result, the number of projectiles fired by the Japanese is consistently higher than that of our EBRs by one and a half, or even two times, I have already given you the actual figures of the projectile consumption, but I can repeat it. In the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Japanese fired 603 12 "shells, hit 57 times. (9,45%) We fired 344 12" shells hit 12 times (3,48%) even if our gunners had given the same percentage of hits as and the Japanese, we would have hit the enemy 32-33 times.
              Quote: Krang
              Yah. First, not in two. Secondly, this time did not matter because pointing and aiming time was even longer

              From burning a Christmas tree :))) This was in the era of dreadnoughts, when the rate of fire of guns reached 1 round in 30 seconds, and the projectile flew to the target for 40-60 seconds, such reasoning was correct. But in the RYAV years, the actual rate of fire of 12 "guns was much longer than the projectile flight time.
              Quote: Krang
              "Eagle" only fired 120 12 "shells (60 volleys) only by the stern installation - at the time of delivery it had only four shots left

              According to Kostenko's memoirs - yes, 4 shots. And 52 shots remained in the bow tower. 52 + 4 = 56 shots, right? But that's bad luck - for some reason the Japanese, when unloading the surrendered "Eagle", counted 188 shells caliber 12 "(from the" Evaluation sheets of weapons and ammunition, were on the ship "Iwami" ", published in" Top Secret War at Sea 37-38, Meiji City ", 8th Department" Finance and Supply ", annex to vol. 2 "Trophies") So 56 shots are another lie of Kostenko (along with 100500 hits in the "Eagle") Sorry for me to destroy your illusions, but alas.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 09: 36
                +1
                Ah, yet another revelation from Krang
                Quote: Krang
                For example, the 305mm Fuji cannon could only be loaded when rotated along the center plane of the ship. As a result, the rate of fire was worse than that of the Nikolai-I (2,5-minute salvo). Didn't you know that by writing me such nonsense?

                First, let's open Belov's "Battleships of Japan"
                The shape of their barbets meant that the guns were also loaded only in a fixed (along the center line) position. But full circular loading still became possible at Fuji (albeit only for a limited period of time), which was possible thanks to the placement of a small number of shells and charges in the rear niches of its domes, together with the installation of second hydraulic breakers there. These breakers were already able to load guns at any position in the horizontal plane until the ammunition of the niches ran out, and the gun platforms had to be re-deployed to their original position along the centerline to replenish it. Such a loading system can be called conditionally circular, but it, nevertheless still imperfect, gave a serious saving of time in comparison with the one used then at the Royal Sovereign.

                Moreover, such problems were ONLY in Fuji.
                Quote: Krang
                I'll give you for you. For the entire Tsushima battle, all Japanese battleships fired a total of 446 12 "shells. Approximately 110 per ship

                Yeah, but ours, judging by the "Eagle" shot much less.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Crang
            Crang 3 February 2014 23: 38
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The same is with the 152-mm turret guns - medium-caliber turrets at that time turned out to be too crude technical innovation. For example, the same "Tsarevich" in the yellow sea fired 509 six-inch shells, "Mikasa" - more than a thousand. No matter how beautiful the 6 "towers looked on paper, the casemate six-inches were preferable in battle.

            Again emphasis on one parameter while completely ignoring the others. And the angles of fire? And the ability to shoot with any excitement? And the fact that the domestic 152mm Kane guns for muzzle energy were 30% percent more powerful than the Japanese? And the fact that our 152mm Kane guns were longer-range than even 203mm Japanese KRS guns? Is that bullshit you can ignore?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Formally, the speed of the Russian EBRs was one knot less than the Japanese ones, in fact, on the same Borodino, the eccentrics were inadmissibly warmed up at 14 knots during the acceptance tests, and to Tsushima to reach speeds over 11, maybe 13 knots, our battleships were categorically contraindicated.

            Bullshit. All "Borodintsy" are guaranteed to gain 17,8z. Only Borodino had problems in the campaign, but by the time of the battle the problem was solved. But the Japanese "Fuji" in battle could not give more than 15,5uz.
            Somewhere inferior, and somewhere superior. In general, Borodino's armor was more powerful than that of Mikasa. Than Mikasa's. The rest of the Japanese EBRs had armor made from Harvey plates with a low coefficient of projectile resistance. I saw their given data in terms of Krupp armor. All of them are hopelessly inferior to Borodino. Hopelessly... Or you didn’t know about it again - an "expert" in the Russian-Japanese war?

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The armor of our EDB was inferior in thickness to the Japanese

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            As Rozhestvensky reported, when trying to turn, the newest battleships turned in succession into the forest, some for firewood - different circulation diameters led to the fact that the EBRs were 1-2 kbt to the right or to the left of the head Suvorov course.

            It's not because of the technique. Battleships of the "Borodino" type differed slightly in design and location of some mechanisms. They had different nose shapes. "Alexander-III" was also distinguished by shortened cuts. This is a normal practice for modern ships as well. They do not leave the assembly line like a VAZ-Priora car. There will be any differences. But the contours of the underwater part, rudders, screws, etc. these ships were absolutely identical and there could not be any difference in behavior on the water. Here again, it's not a reel.
            So Andrey - I don’t know how old you are there. Maybe twenty years and you consider yourself a cool connoisseur. Well, go where-thread to the Tsushima forums, soar their brains there. Here you do not need to write nonsense. Here people gather who long ago grew up from the Tsushima forums and see the essence, rather than engaging in literary studies and comparing millimeters.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 11: 41
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              Again emphasis on one parameter while completely ignoring the others. And the angles of fire?

              And why these angles during the battle in the wake columns?
              Quote: Krang
              And the ability to shoot with any excitement?

              Who, interestingly, told you such a game? But so, for reference - in Tsushima the excitement reached 6 points, the Japanese had no problems with casemate guns
              Quote: Krang
              And the fact that the domestic 152mm Kane guns for muzzle energy were percent 30% more powerful than Japanese?

              Why not at 300%? Generally speaking, the same Suliga gives the muzzle energy of the Russian Kane 1326 tm, and Balakin for the Japanese - 1322 tm. It seems that the cane was still somewhat more powerful, which, for example, gave them at a distance of 20 kbt and 9 extra millimeters of armor penetration (66 vs 57) Is this critical?
              Quote: Krang
              And the fact that our 152mm guns of Kane were longer-range than even the 203mm guns of the Japanese KGB? Is that bullshit you can ignore?

              This is really bullshit, which you can not pay any attention. We open R.M. Melnikov, for example, and read http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Borodino/12.htm
              In terms of ballistic qualities, the guns did not differ significantly: the Russian 305-mm fired at a distance of up to 80 cab, 152-mm - up to 61-cab, the Japanese, respectively, at 82 and 55 cabs, but at long distances the 152-mm cannons of the French Canet system adopted in the Russian fleet discovered the constructive weakness of the lifting mechanisms, which caused breakage of arcs, crushing of gears and "surrender" when fired, which is why, as the documents say, there was "huge scattering" of shells. But the authorities were not concerned about these rare cases in peacetime (shooting, as was then customary, were carried out at short distances) and did not undertake a total strengthening of all the lifting mechanisms of Canet's guns. They changed only those arcs that broke, and against "surrender" they began to clamp the mechanisms with Becker's brakes. The chances of breakdowns were diminishing, but there was no need to talk about rapid firing with a huge effort of rotating guns.

              By the way - the range of Japanese 203-mm - 65 kbt (that de Balakin) That is at least a little, but still more than 61 kbt for Kane
              Quote: Krang
              All "Borodintsy" are guaranteed to gain 17,8z

              Wow ... Okay, I don’t have the right sources at hand, I’ll answer later.
              Quote: Krang
              Somewhere inferior, and somewhere superior. In general, Borodino's armor was more powerful than that of Mikasa

              Wow. those. 229 mm citadels + 51 mm decks are weaker than 194 mm citadels + 40 mm decks. (by the way, Krupp was standing on Mikas) Well, well.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 February 2014 11: 42
                +1
                Quote: Krang
                The rest of the Japanese EDB had a reservation from the Harvey plates with a low coefficient of projectile resistance

                Yeah. Only now the same Asahi, for example, having a 229 mm Garvey armor belt (which approximately corresponded to a 191 mm group) was really inferior to Borodino. As much as 3 millimeters. What you have noticed. But the fact that the height of the main armor belt "Asahi" is 2,4 (or even 2,6 m), while the Borodino GBP had 1,8 m - you somehow forgot about that.
                Quote: Krang
                I saw their data in terms of Krupp armor

                I doubt something. But in general, if anything, krupp was considered approximately 15-20% stronger than the harvey.
                Quote: Krang
                All of them are hopelessly inferior to Borodino. Hopelessly. Or you didn’t know about it again - an "expert" in the Russian-Japanese war?

                Yes, you once again opened my eyes! laughing It turns out 229-178-102 mm Asahi's Harvey armored belt (brought into the group - respectively 191-148-85 is hopeless, not even so,HOPELESSLY Loses 194-165-145 to the Borodino armored belt ... even taking into account that the Japanese armored belt is higher.
                I will not be deployed to answer this topic here. If interested - here http://alternathistory.org.ua/razmyshleniya-o-boevoi-moshchi-korablei-vserazlich
                nykh-io-tom-kak-onye-moshchi-mezh-soboyu-sravniva is a short article of mine on the comparison of artillery and armor protection of Russian and Japanese EDB in the REV. In short - EDBs are comparable, neither one nor the other has a particular advantage.
                Quote: Krang
                But underwater contours, rudders, screws, etc. these ships were absolutely identical and there could simply be no difference in behavior on the water

                M-da ... read, for example, about the difference in the circulation of British destroyers - SINGLE-TYPE ships gave such that ... In general, again the question is materiel. You need to teach her, Krang.
                Quote: Krang
                So Andrey - I don’t know how old you are there.

                38
                Quote: Krang
                so go where the thread to the Tsushima forums, soar their brains there.

                Nope. I have not yet reached the Tsushima forums.
                Quote: Krang
                people who have long since grown up from the Tsushima forums and see the essence, rather than engaging in literary studies and comparing millimeters, are gathering.

                laughing
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
  • Crang
    Crang 2 February 2014 17: 45
    0
    A question to the author of the article. Well, they will raise "Varyag" and what to do with it? Do you have any idea what state he is in? Repairing it is a hell of a job. It's easier to build a new one like the Chinese did.
  • Grif
    Grif 2 February 2014 20: 19
    0
    The Varyag should definitely be raised. Only he should stand in Vladivostok. In St. Petersburg, and so "Aurora" is. It would also be nice to restore Askold and install it in Murmansk.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 2 February 2014 22: 07
    +1
    Quote: Krang
    Sorry, but I'm used to operating sources on both sides.

    If you consider, then the real information, not biased. Only then will there be a sober look at things. But only then will have to put up with the bitter truth.
    And my advice to you is that you do not always need to believe in officialdom, sometimes you have to think and turn on logic with your own brains. Then many things will become clear. And this, well, LLC is VERY concerned with historical truth. hi
    1. Crang
      Crang 3 February 2014 22: 06
      0
      Purely in terms of performance characteristics, "Varyag" had the opportunity to pile on "Asama" very strongly before defeat. I really don't know how he did it under fire from 14 ships from a short distance.
  • Andriuha077
    Andriuha077 3 February 2014 02: 06
    +1
    By the way, the Swedes in 1963 g. Raised their seventeenth-century galleon "Vasa", although he still could not do anything, but only went out to sea for the first time. The royal flagship four-deck, for its manufacture used thousands of oaks. He was taken from the depths of 32 m, and now he flaunts himself in the center of Stockholm on Fr. Yurgorden. The museum is open all year round in Oslo, on the Byugdey peninsula, where Norwegians store the Kon-Tiki raft, on which Thor Heyerdahl swam across the Pacific Ocean, the Ra papyrus boat and the reed Tigris.


    google.co.uk/search?q=sass+ icebreaker+Arctic

    July 31 2012 of the year is removed from the Register of Ships and the Arctic icebreaker is preparing for disposal.
    The cost of the project for the destruction of the "Arctic" is estimated at almost two billion rubles.
    We come up with an idea unthinkable for any bureaucrat:
    to spend this money not on sawing up the "Arctic", but on its preservation as a museum.

    Nuclear-powered icebreaker "Arctic" - the first ship to reach the North Pole in surface navigation.
  • terrible
    terrible 3 February 2014 07: 47
    0
    to raise "Varyag" is unambiguous. And a film about it to remove and create a museum. give a request to the presidential website. I will definitely subscribe.
    1. Andriuha077
      Andriuha077 4 March 2014 21: 04
      0
      Quote: formidable
      to raise "Varyag" is unambiguous. And a film about it to remove and create a museum. give a request to the presidential website. I will definitely subscribe.


      Subscribe: https://www.roi.ru/10967/

      After the repair of parts of the cruiser’s hull and restoration work, it will become possible to create the “Varyag” Museum-cruiser in the sea capital of Russia in St. Petersburg on the Neva River at the Palace Bridge opposite the monument to Peter I. The creation of a memorial to the feat of his crew will be an important and inspiring incentive for educating Russian citizens on patriotic examples of heroic service to the Navy Fatherland.
  • Takashi
    Takashi 3 February 2014 14: 30
    +1
    unfortunate Varangian. There’s already nothing to raise there for sure: everything skidded or rusted.

    I think we need to give another "dream" to our Gazprom. Let him help.
  • Prometey
    Prometey 3 February 2014 14: 44
    0
    So what is the outcome of the battle between the Varyag and the Japanese ships? According to some information (including Stepanov's Port Arthur), it is reported that the cruiser has badly battered the Japanese ships. The Japanese report that they received no damage at all. Comrades, who to believe?
    Although I would not take the Japanese at their word. And the fact that they could not sink 2 "cans", having complete superiority - it's a shame.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 15: 11
      +2
      Quote: Prometey
      So what is the outcome of the battle between the Varyag and the Japanese ships? According to some information (including Stepanov's Port Arthur), it is reported that the cruiser has badly battered the Japanese ships. The Japanese report that they received no damage at all. Comrades, who to believe?

      But the jester knows him. Here the thing is - the Japanese have an official version of those events - "Description of military operations at sea in 37 — 38. Meiji. " According to her, the Japanese ships did not suffer damage. But officialdom, he's such an officialdom ...
      another source has appeared relatively recently - this is “The Top Secret History of the Russo-Japanese War at Sea in 37 — 38. Meiji. " This is a huge work (150 volumes) collected specifically for the analysis of real events of that war. It was like this - to create a Secret History, the Japanese obliged their ship commanders to write the most reliable reports, and access to these materials was strictly limited. All this was done for the naval general staff, so there were no additions and could not be there.
      1911 g. Work on the "Top Secret History" in 150 volumes has been completed. The cost of its publication amounted to more than 130 thousand yen. The preface to the publication emphasized: “Due to the fact that the present work on military history has the heading“ Military Secret ”and requires observance of security measures when using it, all the information contained in it regarding defense, diplomacy and intelligence of our empire, as well as persons related to them must be kept in strict confidence ”
      http://wunderwafe.ru/Magazine/MKA/2007_02/02.htm
      However, the fate of Secret History is amazing in its own way.
      Until the end of World War II, access to the Top Secret History was strictly limited. By 1945, almost all volumes available were destroyed, and the last full copy from the imperial library was seized by the command of the US occupation forces and only a few years later was returned to Japan. Currently, it is stored in the history department of the Research Institute of the National Defense Administration and, although access to the original is strictly limited, its photocopies are available to researchers.
      (ibid)
      On the one hand, there is no mention in the Secret History of damage to Uriu ships. But it is noteworthy that the order on bona fide reports was given to the Japanese commanders after the battle with the Varangian.
      Therefore, most likely this was the case - perhaps the Japanese ships received hits, but if they did not cause serious damage (which is quite acceptable, given the quality of our shells), then in principle Uriu could well hide them
      There was also such an English observer captain Trubridge, who during the battle:
      “I observed a lot of shells falling near the Naniva and thought that there must have been hits in it” Kataev “Cruiser Varyag Legend of the Russian Fleet”, page 60.
      It would be quite easy to hide the dead destroyer (to trace the fate of all 60 Japanese destroyers - he’ll break his leg), but it seems like there were attempts by divers to find his body at the bottom - they did not find it.
      1. Prometey
        Prometey 3 February 2014 18: 13
        0
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        For some reason, I also believe that it cannot be so that for a whole hour of battle not a single shell hit the Japanese, unless half-blind cripples were standing at the guns. As for the quality of the shells, it seems like the "Varyag" and the first squadron still had full-fledged combat shells, as shown by the battle in the Yellow Sea. Like so?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 19: 54
          +1
          Quote: Prometey
          Why do I also believe that it cannot be such that in a whole hour of battle not a single shell hits the Japanese, unless semi-blind cripples were at the guns.

          But still it is worth taking into account that before leaving for Chemulpo, half of the gunmen demobilized from the Varyag. This could not but affect the quality of shooting. And the only sensible rangefinder (Count Nirod) was killed shortly after the start of the battle.
          Quote: Prometey
          As for the quality of the shells, it seems like the "Varyag" and the first squadron still had full-fledged combat shells, as shown by the battle in the Yellow Sea. Like so?

          Yes, how can I say ... the fact is that the Russian armor-piercing shell exploded only if it fell into the armor. His fuse stood with such a slowdown that the rupture occurred after the shell pierced the armor, and this takes time. As a result, if an armor-piercing projectile hit an unarmored side, he could easily make a hole through the ship and fly away to distant places, and there he could already explode. And there was a neat hole in the board, which was easy to close up almost by the crew.
          1. Crang
            Crang 3 February 2014 20: 12
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And there was a neat hole in the board, which was easy to close up almost by the crew.

            This sorry is not true. Your statement is true only if the ship is an empty barrel. In reality, it is full of decks, bulkheads, mechanisms, devices, appliances and devices. Without even taking into account the main vehicles and the artillery unit. Even if you shoot at it with a monolithic blank without any explosive charge (such as a caliber BOPS), then on the way of this blank from one side to another, she will encounter a lot of all this stuff. And such a thing will do a lot of trouble. In some cases, many times more than a mine loaded with explosives. For example, modern tanks very often use BOPS to defeat enemy manpower sheltered in buildings and structures. An absurd way would seem to give good results. BOPS, together with a cloud of fragments generated by it, blows everything in a decent radius and to great depths.
            As for the Japanese, their famous "suitcases" equipped with shimoza appeared only before the Tsushima battle. In the battle at Chemulpo, their high-explosive fragmentation shells were the same crap as ours. If they had applied the OFS with shimosa back then, and the fate of the "Varyag" could have been truly heroic without any "buts".
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 February 2014 22: 52
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              This sorry is not true

              Nah, I'm not sorry
              Quote: Krang
              In reality, he is completely hammered with decks, bulkheads, mechanisms, fixtures, instruments and devices.

              Excuse me, have you seen at least one drawing-section of a ship? Look here
              http://tsushima.su/uploads/photoarhiv/ships/russia/epoch_bron/brkr/rossia/draw/b
              ok.jpg
              and here
              http://tsushima.su/uploads/photoarhiv/ships/russia/epoch_bron/bpkr/svetlana/draw
              /svetlana02.jpg
  • MahsusNazar
    MahsusNazar 3 February 2014 15: 45
    0
    Quote: mark1
    . Each combat unit is located at one point or another not so simply and not with the goal of simply perishing without lowering the flag (this is not a duel of nobles). they all have combat missions that can (and must) be completed, but it is possible (for some reason) not to complete this war; everything happens, they just don’t usually give orders for not fulfilling a combat mission


    I draw your attention to the fact that admiration for the actions of the Russian commanders was expressed by all the "international forces" present there !!!
    So the actions of the Russian commanders are not a propaganda duck, but real heroism.
    Well, about "completing tasks and incompetence" - you can talk if you have experience and the necessary knowledge, but I see you, only a desire to be smart and resentment for underestimating the talent of the "great commander".
  • kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 6 February 2014 10: 46
    0
    I do not beg the Varyag's feat, but in my opinion the best monument to him will be the strong oceanic fleet of Russia. And the second death of "Rurik" was no less heroic, too, one should remember and tell his children.