Military Review

On "Sarkozism" and the Brazilian Fighter Tender

74
As previously reported by P. 2, the fate of the French fighter Rafale, according to some observers, is largely unenviable because of the phenomenon they called “sarcosism”. Giovanni de Briganti on the pages of defense-aerospace.com explains that by “sarcosism” one should understand the inclination of the former French president to rampant boasting and unfounded faith in the success of all his undertakings. Sarkozy’s overly presumptuous behavior turned out to be a catastrophe for Rafale in Brazil, just like in the United Arab Emirates, de Briganti believes. But this is not the only reason that Brazil abandoned its long-standing preferences and made a choice in favor of a more budget single-engine fighter. These reasons, surprisingly, have nothing to do with military needs and flight characteristics.


Sarkozy’s impulsiveness and complete disregard for diplomatic subtleties led him to believe that both countries were willing to buy Rafale, but only because they did not respond with an obvious refusal and did not publicly refute his overly optimistic statements. In addition, he carried the brains out to the Brazilians that Luis Inacio Lula Da Silva, then president, did not find the strength to sign a contract for Rafale and left the decision to the discretion of his more skeptical successor Dilma Roussef.


Michel Euler / AP / SIPA | rue89.nouvelobs.com


The left-wing trade unionist, for whom the time of the military dictatorship in Brazil was very difficult, Russef devotes little time to military issues as a whole, and would be happy to allow the FX-2 tender to quietly stall. However, Air Force commander General Juniti Saito from 2013 on the summer insists that a dozen former French fighters Mirage 2000C are too old to fly and should be written off. As a result, they were written off 20 December.

At the same time, Saito is not at all a fan of French products, and given the reliable airframe and Mirage 2000 engine, he could have drawn a darker picture than in reality in order to get a new fighter. Saito, by the way, is commanding the Air Force from 2007, which is abnormally long, but is not going to leave.

Roussef, in his turn, is not a fan of the United States, which supported the military dictatorship in Brazil, but inclined towards the Super Hornet - until the scandal erupted around the NSA spying. This forced her to abruptly cancel an official visit to Washington, which, according to many, nullified the chances of Super Hornet.

Strange deadlines

Few people expected that Brazil in the next year or two will buy a new fighter, because it is experiencing enormous economic problems, aggravated by the exorbitantly high costs of holding the World Cup. Surprise was also Sweden's own contracts for the Gripen.

However, 18 December Saab announced that the Swedish government signed a contract worth 2,5 billion dollars for the full-scale development of Gripen E, which was soon followed by a separate contract for the integration of air-to-air missiles MBDA Meteor.

And only after the promulgation of these contracts, Brazilian Defense Minister Amorim and the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, Saito, together announced that Gripen had won the FX-2 tender.

You do not need a crystal ball to guess the intense activity left overs, and the telephone traffic between Brazil and Sweden then must have broken all records. It is still not clear just what made President Dilma Roussef reconsider the term for the purchase of fighters, why the contract was announced to the Ministry of Defense and not to the presidential palace, and why the president did not appear at the announcement of the tender results. Maybe she was out of sorts?

This suggests an obvious conclusion that she was forced to make a decision against her will, but for now this is pure speculation. For truth to be revealed, some time must pass.

Vague selection criteria

18 December 2013. Defense Minister Amorim told reporters that Gripen E won the competition for three main reasons: characteristics, technology transfer and lower acquisition and operation costs.

“The final choice was based on these three factors,” the minister concluded. Saito, in turn, stressed the offset obligations, which played in favor of the Swedes: “A number of enterprises will take part in the development of the aircraft. As a result, we will have access to all aircraft technologies. ”But Russef, to whom this decision is attributed, did not appear.

In terms of cost, there is no doubt that the Gripen is much cheaper to buy and operate than the Rafale and its American competitor Boeing F-18E Super Hornet - both twin-engine aircraft are one and a half times heavier than the Gripen. In Brazil, unofficial sources claim that Gripen costs half as much as its competitors, which is plausible enough.

And that's not it. As reported by the O Globo newspaper, Senator Ricardo Ferrazo, chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, said that Saab had offered Brazil to start paying contract payments only after receiving the last 36 aircraft.

Significantly big reward?

Is the 36 Gripen really the last for Brazil? Globo also reported that Brazil is in need of a hundred or more fighters, and Gripen E will be a natural choice if it demonstrates satisfactory performance and operational readiness.

From the point of view of possibilities, there is no doubt that both Gripen competitors surpass it in terms of range, combat load and armament, although the question here is “what is enough for Brazil” and not “which plane is the best”.

The Brazilian Question and Answer report of the Defense Ministry noted that the Gripen NG is a “supersonic aircraft that is capable of performing various tasks such as interception, isolation and subsequent destruction of targets. The aircraft is designed to conduct air combat, defeat sea and land targets and is also equipped with an air refueling system, which will protect airspace even in the most remote corners of Brazil. "

In this description of Gripen, of course, there is nothing unique, but all this for people who do not have a deep knowledge of the military aviation, that is, the average voter, sounds pretty impressive.

Gripen E is good enough

If you believe the assessment of Gripen F, published by the Swiss Air Force (and why not believe it?), Their official conclusions about the combat characteristics of the fighter are of interest.

On a scale from 1 to 9, the Swiss Air Force rated the double Gripen F:

  • by combat effectiveness category on 5,81 (“barely satisfactory”);
  • by operating ability 6,87 (“satisfactory”);
  • on 7,37 interaction (“satisfactory”);
  • with an overall 6.36 rating (“satisfactory”).

    Brazil, however, is not Switzerland, and many would be very uncomfortable with the need to fly over vast stretches of jungle or coastal waters of Brazil on an airplane with one engine.

    Many believe that safer twin-engine (and perhaps also double) aircraft would have much more meaning for such a large country. However, in the end, all this is far less important than the fact that the Rafale and Super Hornet would be financially unaffordable for Brazil in the present conditions.

    So, technology transfer and direct offsets were clearly a powerful trump card for the Gripen, and Amorim bluntly told reporters that Saab’s willingness to transfer Brazil’s rights to aircraft technology was what changed the balance in favor of the Swedes. The economic policy of Brazil and its National Defense Strategy are aimed at modernizing the national industry and, in particular, its aerospace and defense sectors, so the proposal of the Swedes to transfer technology is a great success.

    The bulk of Gripen E technology, however, is not owned by Saab, but by its partners and subcontractors in the United States, the United Kingdom and European countries.

    In addition, given that Saab has made similar promises to Swiss industry, it is unclear how much technology Brazil will ultimately receive. According to the local press of Brazil, they also promised exclusive rights to sell Gripen in South America, but again it is not clear why its neighbors should buy combat aircraft from the regional center of power, and not from Sweden itself, and even less clearly why Brazil will supply them to its neighbors , thereby losing the technological advantage that the Gripen E. can provide.

    The biggest mistake of France in Brazil

    In addition to Sarkozy’s tricks, French industrialists committed a serious mistake in Brazil when they got rid of 20% of the shares of Embraer, a Brazilian state-owned aircraft manufacturer that Dassault and its partners in Rafale acquired when it was privatized in 1994.

    French industrialists had good relations with Mauricio Botello, the first director of Embraer after privatization, but when he left for 2007, relations with his successors were no longer so warm. This seriously complicated the position of the French in the tender, as they lost their most influential local ally. When Embraer became the general local contractor for the FX-2 tender, this inevitably became a disaster for the French.

    The new management of Embraer considered that the development of Rafale is too far from the Brazilian industry in terms of obtaining any significant advantages in terms of new technologies and R & D. Ambitious Brazilians thought that Gripen E, which is still largely under development, will present more opportunities than Rafale. To a large extent, they were right.

    Today, Rafale is already flying with AFAR radar and new equipment necessary for the final version, F3. Until the next stage of its development, the modernization of the middle of the life cycle, there are still more than ten years.

    Gripen E, on the other hand, requires several more years of development work — the first shipments to Brazil are tentatively planned for 2018 — and then Brazil can get new technologies and use its industry in high-tech manufacturing.

    Ironically, if Brazil bought Rafale in 2010, its industry would be able to play a significant role in developing a modernized version of the French fighter, but since then the program has advanced and the technological window of opportunity has closed.

    Brazil sold offset dummy?

    Given that the Super Hornet is nearing the end of its life, it’s obvious that it has little to offer in terms of technology transfer. Brazil would receive only direct offset assemblies and some primitive work with metal with little added value — or without it at all.

    Rumors that the Super Hornet was a dream fighter for the Air Force are as far-fetched as Brazil will now support Saab’s unrealizable dream of developing the deck version of the Gripen. But it is in the context of technology transfer that it’s hard to understand the lobbying of the Gripen E Brazilian Air Force along with Embraer.

    First of all, as already noted, many of Gripen E’s core systems and components are supplied by the UK or the USA, which not only makes Brazil vulnerable to embargoes and / or vendor interventions, but also means that Brazilians will receive very little or nothing of “sensitive” technology owned by the US - just because the Americans so accepted.

    The F414G turbojet engine for Gripen E is manufactured by General Electric, its radar with AFAR is produced by the English company Selex ES, a number of other American and British companies are already involved in the program. In addition, although the Swiss order is smaller (the 22 aircraft is planned), Switzerland immediately made a good breakthrough in negotiations on the role of the Gripen E for its industry.

    All this gives the Brazilian industry a less significant role than it would like. Thus, if Brazil chose Gripen based on the fact that the Swedes open up technological windows of opportunity for its industry, it was a great mistake. In fact, these windows are now largely closed, because the most attractive part of the work is already distributed.

    There is no doubt that for its cost, the Gripen E is quite a respectable combat aircraft, also with the prospect of highly effective rearmament, while the current exploiters are quite satisfied with what it is. However, Brazilian explanations for their unexpected choices make little sense.

    Brazilian officials claim that they chose the Gripen E based on the price (probably), for its performance (“barely satisfactory”), and for the benefits to the industry (with a dubious end result). Brazil and Saab have left 12 months to complete the negotiations on the contract and the corresponding offsets, so it’s enough time to understand whether both parties (with Switzerland looking over offset) can develop a package of agreements that are mutually acceptable in terms of money, so in terms of technology.
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    1. svp67
      svp67 20 January 2014 10: 51
      +2
      What can I say - Swedes are great, but how good are the Brazilians, we will learn so 10 years or after the appearance of new Assange and Snowden
      1. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs 20 January 2014 15: 19
        +3
        Avaricious, as you know, pays twice. First for the Gripen, then for the Su-35.
    2. alone
      alone 20 January 2014 11: 43
      +7
      Sarkozy is still that mongrel)) and the Swedes just cleverly worked. The result of Sarkozy's broken trough)))

      P.S. We are waiting for Russia to agree to the sale of military aircraft to Azerbaijan. We are already waiting for cash for the second year, but Russia still refuses. Comrades, do you need $ 5 billion?))))
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 20 January 2014 12: 02
        +2
        Quote: lonely
        Sarkozy is still that mongrel)) and the Swedes just cleverly worked. The result of Sarkozy's broken trough)))

        P.S. We are waiting for Russia to agree to the sale of military aircraft to Azerbaijan. We are already waiting for cash for the second year, but Russia still refuses. Comrades, do you need $ 5 billion?))))

        They will probably sell it, but now they are infusing their troops and it seems that they have been drawn up for five years, and they won’t look at the flu. Azerbaijan is enough for its territory.
        1. Kasym
          Kasym 20 January 2014 13: 44
          +10
          Good day, dear! Once again, he was convinced that Grippen is not for us. And I almost believed our friend Alibek that he was all Swedish. Friends of our allies will certainly veto this.
          Here is an incident that happened at the training ground with a Libyan cadet pilot on a MiG-23 (single-engine) 16.09.88. He had an independent flight to be applied to us at the test site. I entered from the "combat" one, began to dive at the target, then drop the bomb and climb out. And so, when it began to climb, the engine ... stopped. And he fell to the ground like a maple leaf. The height was 700 meters, as they said. The pilot was killed. I don't even want to describe what happened next - they flew in until the attaché and the bumps with stripes from Moscow. As the pilots said with a 2-engine MiG-29, this would have been ruled out. And from conversations, as I understand it, he squeezed the gazyulka and filled the engine with kerosene. As far as I understand, the accident rate for such (one-mot.) Cars is higher.
          Omar, judging by the fact that he has the Air Force of the Republic of Kazakhstan from the Russian Federation in the near future, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan will not see any news. Recently respected Sagat and Bolot wrote that we received 4 repaired Su-27s from Belarus. I don’t understand one thing. RK deliberately does not buy novia, or the Russian Federation does not, or does the Russian Federation have no opportunities? Kazakhstan has no intentions - no, it does not, but I am nevertheless inclined to believe that so far the RF has no opportunities. Today, the site has an article on how the Russian aviation industry rises. On the other hand, articles appear that Russia will be forced to cut back on rearmament costs. Maybe then a window will open for us. Who knows . And so, for example, you definitely need to take the Su-34 (at least a squadron, better two) - there will be no better one in this class. Yak-130 - training desk too. Oh dreams again. For your health drinks и hi
          1. DEfindER
            DEfindER 20 January 2014 14: 33
            +4
            Quote: Kasym
            I’m still inclined to believe that while the Russian Federation has no opportunities

            Perhaps you are right because Sukhoi now has large orders for the Russian Air Force, but Mig has almost no orders, it can somehow be fixed, otherwise the aircraft plants in our country are idle idle, only in Samara we have the largest Aviakor that the entire Tu-154 Union provided, now it is idle for 90%, only recently they began to assemble some sort of small turboprop aircraft .. He would have been more impressive, and so would your equipment on time, and jobs for us ..
            1. Kasym
              Kasym 20 January 2014 16: 36
              +4
              Yes, our MiG-35s were ready from 45 to 90 pcs. but he’s not ready and he’s not in the Russian Air Force. And if you don’t have it, it makes no sense for us to buy - then there are problems with spare hours. will begin. We have an An-12 more than 10 pieces. worked out cost. And how fellow countryman Marek said that the Mi-6 is repaired one year. And we have 20 of them without repair. The MiG-29 was repaired in Ukraine, in Kharkov. Su-27 in Belarus. Although there they already caught by the hand and put him in prison with the Ukrainians. True, I doubt that the guilty were imprisoned.
              And so, we mainly after modernization in service, almost no news. hi
              Specialists write that instead of factories, the skeletons of the buildings are standing. But God forbid, lift the aircraft industry off its knees, look at the west. there are no forces in our sky.
          2. marshes
            marshes 20 January 2014 16: 29
            +1
            Kasym, good evening.
            Now we have no acute question with combat aircraft, the transport is worried.
            Yes, pay attention to the sending of cadets to military schools of air defense, the Russian Federation to the faculties that are associated with military air defense, army and front-line missions, at the same time they missed this, they all hoped for the Mig-31 systems. So, it would be desirable for the head of the general staff it would be better if the general investigator.
            1. Kasym
              Kasym 20 January 2014 16: 45
              +3
              And to you the same, dear Swamp. Something I suspected, because. especially no activity is visible - would the Russian Federation really refuse us. And air defense is right, if you have a good, layered air defense, then the load on aviation is reduced. And the existing fleet of fighters is enough (just to bring the entire existing fleet to 100% readiness). hi
          3. alone
            alone 20 January 2014 16: 42
            +3
            Quote: Kasym
            Omar, judging by the fact that he has the Air Force of the Republic of Kazakhstan from the Russian Federation in the near future, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan will not see any news.


            And in vain that we can’t see it. We then pay money alive, which is an important factor. And to others on credit, please. And then some are still surprised at why we distance ourselves.
          4. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 20 January 2014 18: 18
            +2
            Quote: Kasym
            As the pilots told with the 2's engine MiG-29 this would have been out of the question.
            Dobvzhe day.
            Logic Reinforced Concrete good In the respected Kasym’s speech, we see, to the point of banality, a simple adjustment of the result to the already existing preferences.
            It is always possible, if there is a need to bring to the necessary conclusion, the corresponding arguments, to build a logical chain of justifications.
            The most characteristic example is the work of Suvorov (which Rezun).
            As for the Mig-23, there can be many reasons, and not always this is uniquely its single-engine. I am one of you of the stated information, I can by eye come to a different result. It is enough for me from the fact that it was controlled by a Libyan pilot and back in 1988 to assume that the reason here is the human factor. Another can be called the very state of the aircraft. By the way, the MiG-23 was on the list of the worst fighters of all time ..
            I will give some comments
            Quote: yo-mine
            Yes, the MiG-23 (27) is a problematic car. I exploited them from 82 to 93gg, tormented like everyone else.
            .
            Quote: mamba
            During the development period, when the aircraft was still “raw,” the MiG-23M caught up with the American F-104 in terms of the number of flight accidents, which Soviet propaganda rightly called the “flying coffin”.
            ..
            Quote: polkownik1
            Here, many rightly write about the importance of pilot training; others recall the Arab-African episodes featuring the MiG-23. We few know the truth about how Arab pilots went through initial training at our training grounds. We tried to give them a training program on the MiG-23 and MiG-25, similar to our programs. However, the Arab chiefs composed the flight program themselves and this is how it often looked: after theoretical training (translator - horror! :)) the export program in a twin, then - one independent flight in a circle; the next flight - to the range with the launch of a rocket at an air target. The next flight is home! The Arab authorities said: Once we have to fight here at home ... What do we want from the MiGs?

            P.S. Do I google a plane crash involving 2's propulsion aircraft ?! In this case, MiG-29 and justify them, their 2-engine repeat
            1. Kasym
              Kasym 20 January 2014 19: 20
              +4
              Alibek, good afternoon! I think I hurt you somewhere wink ! Okay, peace, friendship, chewing gum. But essentially the following:
              1. The MiG-29 has systems that would not allow to bring the engine operating mode to critical parameters (one of the 3 processors on it was just responsible for this and remember about "NATASHA").
              2. On certain operating modes of a single-engine aircraft, more restrictions are imposed than on two.
              They say so in vain about the MiG-23. The former commander-in-chief of the RF Air Force, who flew the F-15, said: "The latest modifications of the MiG-23 can easily withstand the F-15." Yes, this plane is not simple, but in capable hands it is a good fighter. That's why I wrote that I was a cadet from Libya as a pilot. After the disaster in Lugovoye, 2 IL-76s landed with special vehicles. laboratory from Moscow. The officers from which on all fours climbed the range and collected fragments and parts of the aircraft. Specialist. district commissions, Ministry of Defense, Libyan attaché with retinue, special officers. I saw so many generals only on TV parades. Here is this commission with special. laboratory and made conclusions about the crash. There, our entire part of the maintenance of the landfill was arrested.
              I would like to close the topic of two or single-engine. There are two main parameters:
              1. reliability (in the event of failure of one engine, it was knocked out, bird, technical reason, on one to get to the house and save the car; otherwise, immediately go out into the fresh air with the loss of the engine and the loss of the fighter itself)
              2. traction weapon (no comment here)
              Look at the F-35. Give this concept 2 engines and many problems could be avoided. You look that he can drag in a belly - 2 bombs and all (!), The rest is outside and there is no stealth. There is no speed. Any car of 3 generations will remove this duck.
              Alibek, but I think you've read about Grippen. Even Switzerland gives her a C, and "barely satisfactory" for effective combat use is like you belay ? This also says something. And the range? Through the whole country will we fly 4 refueling?
              I, just like you, stand for TS and highly qualified slave. places. But only reasonable designs. Especially in Sweden a lot of amers. and English. equipment - Russia will not understand us, but the Americans and English. will they give permission or bookmarks will they pop?
              I have already given my vision of European fighters here in the comments. This is such a crap for us. it will be that we will spit for a long time. And the people will have an "allergy" to the domestic aviation. Here you need, as in the saying, "first measure seven times before cutting once." drinks hi
              1. Zymran
                Zymran 20 January 2014 19: 24
                +1
                Quote: Kasym
                They say so in vain about the MiG-23. The former commander-in-chief of the RF Air Force, who flew the F-15, said: “The latest modifications of the MiG-23 can easily withstand the F-15.


                Facespalm. Kasym, well, are you serious?
                1. Kasym
                  Kasym 20 January 2014 20: 26
                  +2
                  Zimran, honestly, I do not know what Facespalm is. But in fact, everything is so. I don’t remember exactly who, but in my opinion Deinekin. He really flew the F-15. And gave an assessment to this plane. Also America. given to the Su-27. His comments also concerned the ergonomics of the cockpit - it seems like the plane is heavy, but inside there is a sense of compression. Some devices and mechanisms are not conveniently located. And compared them by maneuverability.
                  Zymran, I saw him on the ground. And since this is a training ground, the RP and his assistant (and these are at least pilots with the rank of colonel and lieutenant colonel - as you think the instructor - the pilots who taught the pilots of the entire socialist camp what class they are) "are always there" (I spent a year on my tablet and often conducted private conversations). So I have nothing to lie. The MiG-23 for its time was super in capable hands. But as I wrote, it has more limitations at different engine operating modes. The MiG-23 was the latest modernization (there were not so many of them released) and was referring to the commander in chief. hi
                  1. Zymran
                    Zymran 20 January 2014 20: 36
                    +3
                    Quote: Kasym
                    Zimran, honestly, I do not know what Facespalm is. But in fact, everything is so. I don’t remember exactly who, but in my opinion Deinekin. He really flew the F-15. And gave an assessment to this plane


                    Well, what else will the Air Force commander say? Recognizes American superiority? Sorry this is the same propaganda as the downed NATO aircraft in Yugoslavia or Israeli in the Middle East.

                    Quote: Kasym
                    His comments also concerned the ergonomics of the cockpit - it seems like the plane is heavy, but inside there is a sense of compression. Some devices and mechanisms are not conveniently located. And compared them by maneuverability.


                    In terms of maneuverability, the Mig-23 was even inferior to the F-5E.
                    http://testpilot.ru/review/runway/volga/volga_xvi.htm

                    - Let's put the MiG-23M against him.
                    - But they cannot be compared, they were created in different "historical" times, - objected the head of our research institute.
                    During the Great Patriotic War, Colonel-General I.D. Gaidaenko, as a fighter pilot, fought at the front as a follower of "himself" P.S. Kutakhov, who was at that time the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, who was to report the results of a comparative assessment.
                    “But we’ll give him such a“ pepper, ”said the deputy chief designer of the MiG-23M, rubbing his hands in anticipation of revenge.
                    "Pepper", of course, poured, only to themselves. The result was the same, with the only difference that the agony lasted up to 4-5 minutes. And this is taking into account the fact that as a pilot who perfectly knows all methods of getting an aircraft out of stall and spin, it was allowed to use angles of attack above the maximum permissible. During the "battle" I manually set the most optimal wing sweep. But it was all in vain ... The stranger slowly but stubbornly went into the "tail". After that, there was silence for a while, loud discussions stopped. The head of the research institute ordered to urgently draw up a test report and Stogov and I to arrive in Moscow, in TsNII-30, which was engaged in promising problems in the development of aviation technology.


                    Quote: Kasym
                    MiG-23 for its time was super in good hands. But as I wrote, it has more limitations with various engine operating modes.


                    This is provided that the enemy is a completely inept pilot.
                    1. sergey72
                      sergey72 20 January 2014 21: 33
                      +2
                      It's all right?
                      1. Zymran
                        Zymran 20 January 2014 21: 39
                        +1
                        The same crashed during a night flight in Libya F-15.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. bif
                      bif 21 January 2014 03: 09
                      0
                      Quote: Zymran
                      In terms of maneuverability, the Mig-23 was even inferior to the F-5E.

                      I would like to stand up for Kasym, if you will.
                      As you probably misunderstood, the MiG-23 had many modifications, the most recent and most successful (produced with 1984) was the MiG-23 MLD.
                      http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/russia/mikoyan/mig/23/
                      But excerpts from the interior view of our pilots after test flights on the F-15D ...
                      "Langley Air Force Base (Virginia), where the 1st tactical fighter wing of the US Air Force is based, the military from the Lipetsk Air Force Center for Combat Operations and Flight Operations has paid a friendly visit. on two training-combat two-seat fighters Sy-27UB and a military transport Il-76. This was the first visit of this kind: before, only top-class testers were sent to America on specially trained machines. Major E. Karabasov (the delegation was headed by the head of the Lipetsk center, General-Major of Aviation N. Chaga), on serial (albeit thoroughly washed) fighters ... In Langley, ours were given the opportunity to fly on the F-15D ... The radius of the turn of the F-15 more than y Sy-27. On the whole, according to Khacchevsky, the Eagle, according to its maneuverable characteristics, is falling off the Sy-27 and is approaching the MiG-29.At the same time, according to another pilot who tried the F-15 1992D during the return visit of the Americans to Lipetsk in September XNUMX, Eagle’s maneuvering capabilities more closely match the capabilities of the MiG-23MLD (this may seem somewhat unexpected for readers who are accustomed to critical estimates of "twenty-three") ... "http://suavia.info/page/63/
          5. The comment was deleted.
        2. alone
          alone 20 January 2014 16: 40
          +1
          Quote: Semurg
          They will probably sell it, but now they are infusing their troops and it seems that they have been drawn up for five years, and they won’t look at the flu. Azerbaijan is enough for its territory.


          They offer only the Yak-130)) but the su-30, su-27cm3 flatly refuse.)) Well, they don’t want to do anything. They will have to look for others, and these billions will go to others)) the same Grippen or rafal, and maybe others can offer something
          1. marshes
            marshes 20 January 2014 16: 52
            +3
            Quote: lonely
            rafal

            Good evening, I'm afraid that you will not succeed in fruitful cooperation with France, no matter how they have an Armenian lobby.
            1. alone
              alone 20 January 2014 17: 20
              +5
              Quote: marshes
              Good evening, I'm afraid that you will not succeed in fruitful cooperation with France, no matter how they have an Armenian lobby.


              where money and economic benefits the lobby does not play a role. Remember the law on the denial of genocide. Failed with a bang. With such money, few disdain.
          2. Kasym
            Kasym 20 January 2014 17: 18
            +4
            Rafal, Omar, better wait. Their third series is not yet ready - this is a fully finished fighter with all systems. Grippen E with a radius of 300 km. it may be suitable for Azerbaijan (although it is also not yet, as I understand it), but of course the MiG-29 is better (35). hi
            1. alone
              alone 20 January 2014 17: 22
              +2
              Quote: Kasym
              but better of course the MiG-29 (35).


              Migi-29 so has. Purchased in Ukraine and modernized. But these are old planes. We need new ones. And the 35th will not be sold to us either,
              1. Kasym
                Kasym 20 January 2014 17: 45
                +6
                Omar, I think that the MiG-35 will be able to. Because
                1. Cannot drag long-range BB missiles.
                2. The Su-35 Air Force of the Russian Federation makes it without going into the MiG coverage area.
                It’s just that it’s not yet and it seems to me your hand was asked to wait, because such a contract, for all reasons, the Russian Federation will not give up. Here, Russia itself declared its desire to sign a contract for 45 cars. We, you - so orders are guaranteed. And MiG doesn’t have much work now, so they’ll bring it to mind.
                And about age, Omar, you are in vain. His glider good , remember that he is in Yugoslavia alone !!! without a slave !!! managed to bring down NATO cars. It’s just necessary to bring it. And approaching (he has a passive radar - infrared, he is small, and even at a low altitude against the background of the earth) gave heat. And the Serbs had no cars - all the resources were worked out, which significantly reduced the possibilities. Well, something like this . hi
                1. Zymran
                  Zymran 20 January 2014 17: 54
                  +2
                  Quote: Kasym
                  And about age, Omar, you are in vain. He has a good glider, remember that he is in Yugoslavia alone !!! without a slave !!! managed to bring down NATO cars


                  Bullshit. (with)
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 20 January 2014 18: 02
                    +3
                    What nonsense, Zymran? I proceed from the words of MiG chief test pilot Bogdan (I don’t remember his last name, but if interested, this is an interview from the Udarnaya Strela series about the MiG-29). hi
                    1. Zymran
                      Zymran 20 January 2014 18: 08
                      +2
                      Bullshit that NATO was losing planes in aerial combat. Two combat losses, the same famous Stealth and F-16 on account of the S-125 air defense system.
                      Two more helicopters crashed in accidents, Harrier and one transporter.
                      1. andrei332809
                        andrei332809 20 January 2014 18: 52
                        +3
                        Quote: Zymran
                        Two more helicopters crashed in accidents

                        1. Zymran
                          Zymran 20 January 2014 18: 54
                          +2
                          Impressive.
                        2. andrei332809
                          andrei332809 20 January 2014 19: 00
                          +1
                          Quote: Zymran
                          Impressive.

                          and then wink
                    2. Kasym
                      Kasym 20 January 2014 20: 59
                      +2
                      Open, if you like, by the link "NATO Air Force losses in Yugoslavia". And what we see. It is you, Zymran, that Western propaganda ate. So I believed that I had lost 2 planes. Delirium. I believed the NATO official statement. Don't tell me, Zymran.
                      I believe Baghdan and Deinekin rather than such statements. In vain there Kursk sailed with electronic intelligence vessels, and the commander of the Hero boat received. Well, where is the logic? Oh, and I thought you were serious.
                      One gets the feeling that you are provoking.
                      1. Zymran
                        Zymran 20 January 2014 21: 04
                        +3
                        Quote: Kasym
                        Open, if you like, by the link "NATO Air Force losses in Yugoslavia". And what we see. It is you, Zymran, that Western propaganda ate.


                        Eh, Kasim, I thought you were a scoop, but sane, but it looks like a scoop is a diagnosis.

                        Quote: Kasym
                        So I believed that 2 aircraft lost. Bullshit. I believed the official statement by NATO. Do not tell, Zmran.


                        Where are the wreckage of downed planes, where are the captive pilots whose downing is hiding NATO? The wreckage of the F-117 and F-16 in Belgrade is exhibited in the museum, and we know about the rest only from the words of the south.
                        Andrei Martynov, who fought in Kosovo as a volunteer, expressed the following opinion in the magazine “Soldier of Fortune” (No. 12, 1999)

                        Enemy aircraft sometimes went literally over our heads, confident in their impunity. The victorious reports of the command of the Serbian army about allegedly dozens of downed planes are a fairy tale. For two months of bombing on TV showed downed F-117 and F-16. Where are the wrecks of other aircraft? But didn’t they all fall into the sea? And if shot down on land, then where are the pilots? For example, the NATO rescuers pulled out a night bomber pilot almost from the center of Belgrade.
                      2. sergey72
                        sergey72 20 January 2014 21: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Zymran
                        Eh, Kasim, I thought you were a scoop, but sane, but it looks like a scoop is a diagnosis.

                        Ah-yay-Zymran, name-calling is not good ..
                      3. Zymran
                        Zymran 20 January 2014 22: 28
                        +1
                        Yes, really, got excited. Sorry.
                    3. Clegg
                      Clegg 20 January 2014 22: 25
                      +1
                      Quote: Zymran
                      Eh, Kasim, I thought you were a scoop, but sane, but it looks like a scoop is a diagnosis.

                      Scoop and sanity are incompatible things.
          3. alone
            alone 20 January 2014 21: 03
            +1
            Quote: Kasym
            Omar, I think that the MiG-35 will be able to. Because
            1. Cannot drag long-range BB missiles.
            2. The Su-35 Air Force of the Russian Federation makes it without going into the MiG coverage area.
            It’s just that it’s not yet and it seems to me your hand was asked to wait, because such a contract, for all reasons, the Russian Federation will not give up


            Dauren, why do we need combat aircraft with limited capabilities? If we are talking about the country's security, saving on it and waiting for you to be sold is not considered a reasonable approach. The world does not only consist of manufacturers alone. If Russia doesn’t need our money in exchange for aircraft, this is their decision. so that focusing on it is impractical))
            remember that he is in Yugoslavia alone !!! without a slave !!! managed to bring down NATO cars.


            Sorry, of course, but these are all Serbian fantasies. There are no facts of the downed NATO aircraft from MIG-29.
            1. Kasym
              Kasym 20 January 2014 22: 18
              +1
              Here, Omar, something needs to be clarified.
              1) MiG-35 with AFAR ZhUK will not yield to standard Su-27. Ask the VAF, if you do not believe it, he claimed it. And also its unique ability to work both on land and on land.
              2) At your theater of operations you need to approach the place of use of weapons in the folds of the mountains. And this is best done on a small plane (MiG is 1,5 times smaller than the Su-27 family).
              3) He has a passive radar, which makes it possible to approach the target in the space of the 0th radio emission.
              4) Its radius of action + medium-range missiles is sufficient to conduct even through the territory of the NK.
              5) The fact is the statement of Amer. , French , German and English pilots that the MiG-29 in all training, close., man. battles with all types of west. fighters came out victorious. Maybe propaganda too, that they went to Western specials. from countries of Eastern Europe. And German pilots took part in training battles.
              Based on this, I calculated and believe that it fully meets the needs of Azerbaijan. Are you not going to fight with Russia?
              I will repeat my position on Yugoslavia. So the NATO gave you to show their downed aircraft with a total superiority on inform. the field. Especially if they pulled pilots almost from Belgrade. I’m more likely to believe the main test pilot. If you are a patriot and there will be an opportunity to fly into battle, would you do it? Therefore, I believe the Serbs that they flew and beat. Would you sit in their place? I know not. hi
              1. Zymran
                Zymran 20 January 2014 22: 35
                0
                Quote: Kasym
                The fact is the statement of Amer. , French , German and English pilots that the MiG-29 in all training, close., man. battles with all types of west. fighters came out victorious.


                Please reference your statement to the studio.

                Quote: Kasym

                I will repeat my position on Yugoslavia. So the NATO gave you to show their downed aircraft with a total superiority on inform. the field. Especially if they pulled pilots almost from Belgrade. I’m more likely to believe the main test pilot


                Kasym, the statement of the Serbs is ordinary propaganda from the losers. You can even trace how the declared victories changed:

                Yugoslav media in late May - early June of the 1999 year reported the downing of more than 120 aircraft and 40 NATO helicopters


                It takes two weeks and

                On 15 on June 1999, the head of the FRY General Staff, Dragolyub Oydanich announced that by this time the country's air force and air defense had destroyed 61 aircraft, 7 helicopters, 30 unmanned aerial vehicles and 238 winged cancers


                In a year

                In 2000, the Ministry of Defense of Yugoslavia adjusted its numbers and announced the destruction of only 31 aircraft (including one F-117), 6 helicopters, 11 unmanned aerial vehicles and approximately 40 cruise missiles [2] [7], which, nevertheless, by - still noticeably higher than NATO data.


                And after 8 years:

                In March of the 2008 of the year, the Serbian newspaper Politika published an article entitled “Milošević nije dozvolio napade na NATO”, dedicated to the 9 anniversary of the start of the NATO military operation against Yugoslavia [9]. In this article, the following figures of losses caused by the Yugoslav air defense of NATO aviation were given:

                56 aircraft destroyed (2 aircraft, 9 UAVs, 45 cruise missiles)
                Damaged 38 aircraft (36 aircraft and 2 helicopters)


                As you can see, those same 2 aircraft, the wreckage of which are stored in the Belgrade Museum. As for the damaged ones, let us believe the Serbs a word.
              2. The comment was deleted.
      2. marshes
        marshes 20 January 2014 17: 32
        +3
        Grippen and Rafale can do well.
        I recall their auto industry, I swear quietly, the Citroen BX-14 and the Saab 9000-roads were in service, some of my wife’s sisters brought parts from Germany.
    3. smersh70
      smersh70 20 January 2014 21: 24
      0
      Quote: lonely
      Only the Yak-130 is offered)) but the su-30, su-27cm3

      Su30, and 27 are too big for us .. our territory is small. 130 is still raw, though they are being knocked down, but the su-34 would have been cleaned up, although not everything is smooth there either. (New parts, maintenance)
      By the way, why today there is no article on the branch about January 1990. The last of all the tricks of Gorbach was the death of the citizens of the USSR. hi
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Veteran Vlad.
    Veteran Vlad. 20 January 2014 15: 58
    +1
    Why wait, you can buy good fighter Mirage 2000 from the French or from the same Swedes Gripen
    1. alone
      alone 20 January 2014 17: 23
      +1
      Mirage 2000 does not roll. Old. once we pay money B \ u is not needed.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 20 January 2014 20: 17
    0
    And why are the same "Gripenes" not suitable for us? Light converged on Russian planes or what? They do not sell, so it is not necessary. Will buy from those who will sell, and by technology they are far advanced. It is foolish to even compare "Rafali" with MiGs. This is heaven and earth. About electronics generally keep quiet
    1. Zymran
      Zymran 20 January 2014 20: 19
      +2
      It’s still suitable for Azerbaijan, but your financial capabilities, in my opinion, allow you to buy Rafal. Or did the crisis get to you?
      1. alone
        alone 20 January 2014 21: 09
        +1
        Quote: Zymran
        It’s still suitable for Azerbaijan, but your financial capabilities, in my opinion, allow you to buy Rafal. Or did the crisis get to you?


        if we sold we could buy even steeper planes. fifty billion only gold and foreign exchange reserves, not counting other reserves and opportunities)) wink
        1. Zymran
          Zymran 20 January 2014 21: 17
          +1
          Quote: lonely
          if we sold we could buy even steeper planes. fifty billion only gold and foreign exchange reserves, not counting other reserves and opportunities)) wink


          The main thing in integration projects is not to mess with anyone, carry out reforms and fight corruption and you will have a second Kuwait.
          1. alone
            alone 20 January 2014 21: 20
            +1
            Quote: Zymran
            The main thing in integration projects is not to mess with anyone, carry out reforms and fight corruption and you will have a second Kuwait.


            and not going to climb))
            1. Zymran
              Zymran 20 January 2014 21: 21
              +2
              At least someone’s government has its head in place.
      2. xetai9977
        xetai9977 20 January 2014 22: 15
        +2
        In general, we need to switch to higher quality products. And then MiG, Su-27, Msta, BMP-3. Why not Rafal, not Archer with Excalibur missiles, not Taurus missiles? etc.
        1. Zymran
          Zymran 20 January 2014 22: 25
          +1
          So that Hollande does not press the button and all Rafali does not turn off you. laughing
          1. xetai9977
            xetai9977 21 January 2014 10: 18
            0
            More need to fear that we will disconnect Russian aircraft from Moscow
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • StolzSS
    StolzSS 20 January 2014 21: 32
    +1
    Yes, it’s obvious that they’ve gotten too kind in nature, or they can’t agree. Go and sort these Kremlin puzzles after the next holidays. wassat
  • VAF
    VAF 20 January 2014 21: 46
    0
    Quote: lonely
    We are waiting for Russia to agree to the sale of military aircraft to Azerbaijan. We are already waiting for cash for the second year, but Russia still refuses. Comrades, do you need $ 5 billion?))))


    Unfortunately, while the "power" is "the great Po", you know ... only helicopters bully unfortunately drinks
    1. alone
      alone 20 January 2014 21: 48
      +1
      Quote: vaf
      Unfortunately, while the "power" is "the great Po", you understand ... only helicopters, unfortunately


      hi Well, as they say, these are not our problems, but Po's problems)) laughing drinks
  • makarov
    makarov 20 January 2014 13: 45
    +3
    Oh, this Brazil (?) ... where many many monkeys live laughing
    1. Panikovsky
      Panikovsky 20 January 2014 14: 16
      +4
      Quote: makarov
      Oh, this Brazil (?) ... where many many monkeys live laughing

      and as many Don Pedro. smile
      1. avg
        avg 20 January 2014 15: 38
        +3
        Quote: Panikovsky
        Quote: makarov
        Oh, this Brazil (?) ... where many many monkeys live laughing

        and as many Don Pedro. smile

        I haven’t been to Brazil, but I believe both of you. ++ laughing
  • DEfindER
    DEfindER 20 January 2014 13: 48
    +2
    What can I say, any Western plane, that phantom, that typhoon, tornado, rafal, flu, etc. they are the joint production of many Western companies, where most of them are naturally American, and they won’t allow them to try to prevent them somewhere, there are a lot of examples, so let the Brazilians think ten more times ..
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 20 January 2014 17: 58
      +1
      Vyachaslav, I would say that European combat aircraft do not even reach those such as the Su-30. Eurofighter (they wrote somewhere that more than half of the planes are standing), Rafal and Grippen are not brought to the 3rd series. That is, not all systems are worked out. We will continue to observe what will happen in this direction. hi
      The MiG-35 with the AFAR BEETLE will leave them all out of work, if the B-B missiles bring new ones, then the F-35 will be both tail and mane, as the VAF wrote about him (and as I understand it, he has experience) . This swallow will be good .
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 20 January 2014 18: 08
        +2
        Quote: Kasym
        We will continue to observe

  • urich
    urich 20 January 2014 16: 34
    +1
    Mig-35 is cheaper than Gripen (according to data from the Internet, $ 45mln versus $ 48 mln) Therefore, it is not clear if the main criterion was cheap, why didn’t you choose Mig-35?
    And further. In India, the instant 35 also lost, they say because of the RD-33MKV engines. Who is in the know and will explain the situation, instant-35 is not a competitor here at all?
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 20 January 2014 17: 27
      +5
      All the avionics of the aircraft are not yet ready. Another reason that is not in service with the Russian Federation itself. Therefore, there may be problems with service and spare parts. Who needs it.
      Therefore, we are waiting for it to be completed - last year (in summer) 2 MiG-29s were transferred to Fazatron for testing the AFAR ZhUK. wink
    2. VAF
      VAF 20 January 2014 21: 59
      +2
      Quote: urich
      . In India, Mig-35 also lost, they say because of the RD-33MKV engines. Who knows and will explain the situation, instantly-35 is not a competitor here?


      Guys, dear and respected drinks For the last time I am writing on this topic. The MiG-35 "flew" only because the Indians presented edition 9-15 and a half of the BREST that should have been installed on it.
      And to paint the prototype and write the MiG-35 on it ... this is from hopelessness, because. already in those days there was an "attack" on the Mig from the Po side.
      And the main reason is. that the Mig-35 was not in serial production and in service.
      All..more no reasons whatsoever! soldier
  • Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 20 January 2014 17: 51
    +2
    <<< First and foremost, as noted, many of the core systems and components of the Gripen E are sourced from the UK or the US, which not only makes Brazil vulnerable to embargoes and / or supplier interference, but also means that Brazilians will get very little or nothing from "Sensitive" technologies owned by the United States - simply because Americans do it. >>>
    They are SUSPECTING about such a development of events, or, naively, DO NOT SUSPECT the Russian ardent supporters of the purchase of large quantities of military equipment abroad in a package with technology that supposedly makes it possible to organize its production (the so-called localization) in Russia! Realities turn out to be sobering, not to mention, in general, the foggy prospect of technical maintenance and repair of purchased equipment during its lifetime!
  • Zymran
    Zymran 20 January 2014 17: 55
    0
    By the way, that same Swiss report on the comparative effectiveness of Eurofighter, Raphael and Gripen. http://ru.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swiss-Air-Force-Confidential-Report-on-the-Eva
    luation-of-the-Eurofighter-the-Gripen-NG-and-the-Rafale
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 20 January 2014 18: 36
      +2
      Zimran, in fact at the moment, there is no 4-generation fighter aircraft in Europe. Will explain . Each country, in its own way, conducts a series of tests. But approximately it looks like this.
      Series 1 is a glider, aerodynamics, fuselage rigidity, overflights, etc.
      2 series - this is the radar, weapons, electronics. Now the T-50 is at this stage.
      Series 3 - this is debugging all systems for interaction, communication there, navigation, ACS, etc.
      I definitely do not know, but something like that. So, not one of them is ready yet. The French expect to finish their Rafal through an Indian tender. Swedes at the expense of Switzerland. Eurofighter, in my opinion, is so raw that I don’t even know if it is flying or has become overgrown with moss due to the crisis.
      So, Zymran, this is all "theory". Let them show in practice that they draw on paper. Then we will write reports, what do you think?
      1. Zymran
        Zymran 20 January 2014 18: 43
        0
        Maybe you mean the 5 generation?

        Quote: Kasym
        So, Zymran, this is all "theory". Let them show in practice that they draw on paper


        Want to make a war? laughing
        1. Kasym
          Kasym 20 January 2014 20: 41
          +2
          Just give me, dear Zymran, MiG-35 with T-50 (1k3) in the required numbers, MiG-31 and Su-27 with MiG-29 are shamanized and let go. We will appoint swamps. We will fix the Sagat air defense. lol Do not mind the appointment! laughing
          No, it’s the 4 generation. Rafal is closest to the series (I think of the year 3). And this is far from the 5.
          We are peaceful people, the country seems to have enough land, but no one else needs. hi
          1. Zymran
            Zymran 20 January 2014 20: 48
            +2
            Quote: Kasym
            No, it’s the 4 generation. Rafal is closest to the series (I think of the year 3). And this is far from the 5.


            The 4 generation is the 30 aircraft of a year ago. Even the Mirage-2000 belongs to this generation, not to mention the MiG-29, Su-27, F-14 / 15 / 16 Something I do not understand you.

            Quote: Kasym
            Give only, dear Zymran, MiG-35 with T-50 (1к3) in the required numbers, MiG-31 and Su-27 with MiG-29 shamanized and let go. We will appoint swamps.


            Clegg let him command the propaganda department, or Marek.
            1. Kasym
              Kasym 20 January 2014 21: 04
              +1
              All Zmran, you only to the VAF or another pilot. I have no words . hi Maybe they will enlighten.
              Okay, one last fact. 5th generation engines are available only in the USA. In the Russian Federation, on the way in 2 years. Now the question is: "Why does the US not sell the F-22 to anyone !!!? Even England?"
              1. Zymran
                Zymran 20 January 2014 21: 11
                +1
                What don't you like, then?

                The fourth generation

                By the time of its inception, the USSR and the USA switched to a two-component configuration of the Air Force, which meant dividing the fighters into light and heavy. Distinctive features of the generation:

                Improved maneuverability (unstable aerodynamic design).
                Dual-circuit turbojet engines with reduced fuel consumption.

                Fourth generation aircraft:

                In aviation of the USSR / Russia
                Su-27
                MiG-29
                MiG-31
                In US aviation
                Grumman F-14 Tomcat
                McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
                General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
                In aviation of other countries
                Dassault Mirage 2000
                J-10


                Fourth-generation jet fighter

                Fourth-generation jet fighter is a general classification of fighter aircraft in service from approximately 1980 to present day, and represent design concepts of the 1970s. Fourth-generation designs are heavily influenced by lessons learned from the previous generation of combat aircraft. Long-range air-to-air missiles, originally thought to make dogfighting obsolete, proved less influential than expected precipitating a renewed emphasis on maneuverability.


                Okay, one last fact. 5th generation engines are available only in the USA. In the Russian Federation, on the way in 2 years. Now the question is: "Why does the US not sell the F-22 to anyone !!!? Even England?"


                And where is the 5 generation? You claimed that in Europe there are no 4 generation fighters. I asked, maybe you meant the 5 generation, not the 4. No, they didn’t mean it. I pointed out to you that even the ancient Mirage-4 belongs to the 2000 generation.

                Now the question is: "Why does the US not sell the F-22 to anyone !!!? Even England?"


                Because no one else has the 5 generation engines.


                1. Kasym
                  Kasym 21 January 2014 00: 13
                  +2
                  You yourself answered the question about the 5th generation.
                  You fighter-bomber (carrier nuclei. Weapons) will be put against the fighter? You call Mirage 2000 a 4th generation fighter belay ? And he can make aerobatics in the likeness of the Su-27 and MiG-29? He rockets 90 km from the at. the warhead is intended to shoot-dr.vozd. laughing they have no carriers. So it's more like a bomber jacket. lol . They did this out of hopelessness, is it really not clear, and look at the number of these aircraft. Why so few bought them. And how many countries was in service. MIG-29 PRO SEE IN STRIKE FORCE. UNDERSTAND THAT ALL PROFILE RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS TAKE PART IN THE CREATION, SUCH AS THE US DID NOT DREAM. THERE WERE ALL SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS GOED. FOR EXAMPLE, CALCULATIONS ON BORDERLINE ENVIRONMENTS between the fuselage and air spaces - diff. ur with small parameters - at different points on the plane. And what contribution TsAGI has made, see shorter.
                  Glory to the Almighty, the VAF came up and decided with one comment. If I lied to Aksakal on aviation, STOP would have definitely written out, including the state of the European Air Force.
                  The article states that Rafal has just begun to test AFAR (MiG-29 also this summer). Series 3. READ CAREFULLY THE ARTICLE.
                  So they have nothing to put up a full-fledged aircraft against the Su-27. And we will end the argument, each with their own opinion.
              2. Kasym
                Kasym 20 January 2014 22: 41
                +1
                Zymran, they themselves started "delirium". And then on my taunts you start a "scoop with a diagnosis." No, I didn't want to spoil relations with you. It's just that the pilots will quickly explain on their fingers that the completed MiG-35 will make all these Rafali, Gripen, F-35 to a heap. They will explain (I got it in the neck from the VAF for this) that single-engine ones have much more restrictions on their use than the second ones. Even the MiG-2, with various somersaults, cannot be used. And what these "nedorezanye" can? How to fight them, if in similar situations the enemy can "buy" you, and you just watch your ass? And don't forget that the plane is the plane, and the ammunition and ground guidance systems must be compatible. The frequencies you work on. He will remove his own air defense from the sky and will not hesitate. The flyers told me that in order for one plane to take off, about 29 people on the ground needed work. hi
                Here is one of the differences between the MiG-29 and the western ALL fighters. Climbing at the western (incl. F-22 - all specialists noted it) is a slide, i.e. to be determined. altitude go to horiz. flight, with a set of speed. Then up again. MiG-29 for these indicators (rate of climb) is better. Due to which he often came out the winner (photo shoots confirm this).
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Zymran
                  Zymran 20 January 2014 23: 07
                  0
                  Quote: Kasym
                  Zymran, they themselves started "delirium". And then on my taunts you start a "scoop with a diagnosis." No, I didn't want to spoil relations with you.


                  Rave? Taunts? If you don’t even know which planes belong to the fourth generation, and then you get into a pose what to call it? You compose tales about NATO aircraft shot down by Migami. Moreover, the Serbs themselves no longer claim anything like this, but claim two downed planes.

                  Quote: Kasym
                  Just the pilots on their fingers will quickly explain that the completed MiG-35 will make all of this Rafali, Gripen, F-35 to the heap.


                  Firstly, it must first be completed, and secondly, to test at least in training battles. Not to mention the real conflict.

                  Quote: Kasym
                  And what these "nedorezanye" can? How to fight them, if in similar situations the enemy can "buy" you


                  In short, it’s all Western, but the Soviet / Russian is the best in the world.

                  Quote: Kasym
                  And do not forget that the plane is by plane, and the ammunition and ground guidance systems must be compatible. Frequencies at which you work. His own air defense will be removed from the sky and not hesitate.


                  I think it’s not a problem to carry out the appropriate reconfiguration of air defense systems.

                  Quote: Kasym
                  Due to which he often came out the winner (photo shoots confirm this).


                  Again, where are the links. Where are the "undercut" NATO fighters shot down by Instant? No.
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 21 January 2014 00: 35
                    +2
                    MiG-35 has a completed glider. Notice Raphael, Grippen in front of the plumage. The Russian Federation also put such experiments to the Su-30, and then refused - why?
                    Zimran MiG-35 is almost ready, it is at the level of Raphael (the article also talks about the 3rd series and the AFAR tests). And in the summer, the Ministry of Defense announced the transfer of 2 MiG-29s to Fazatron. This is with all the refinements of 2-3 years. Everything will be ready for the series.
                    Well, why is the western bad. WE IN THE CSTO WHO WILL GIVE YOU HIGH-PRECISION AMMUNITION - YOU ARE ALLY OF RUSSIA. ALL POINT. A MAINTENANCE TRAINING STAFF, STORAGE CONDITIONS, STRIP LENGTH, ETC. ETC .
                    NOBODY WILL ALLOW YOU TO FREQUENCIES, AND CLOSE TO UNIFICATION. FREQUENCY - MAIN SECRET. ON WHICH WORKS AND IN WHICH RANGE (IF YOU KNOW, AND THE ALGORITHM OF WORK, KILL FOR EASY).
                    I write that see the series. Or 2 Su-27s of the Russian Air Force did not fly to America, in their TOP GAN? But they didn’t have to take a MiG-29. Would you check the aircraft of a potential enemy in training battles, if there were any? The logic is clear.
            2. alone
              alone 20 January 2014 21: 11
              +1
              If necessary, and we can support the brothers of Kazakhs laughing There is experience, only the landman I))
  • Irokez
    Irokez 20 January 2014 19: 39
    +1
    If you have money, give it to the Americans and buy the F-35, but it’s very expensive because they won’t give it for cheap. You can and the Chinese for the clones, well, very cheap.
    In general, the situation with the Rafals from France is not in their favor also because at one time they threw Argentines a little during the war in the Falklands. And thus they tarnished their reputation. There, it seems as if with the successful applications of the Exocet anti-ship missile, the French were pressed and they turned off the electronics, which later served as an anti-advertising of French high-tech technology in general. Well, who needs to buy something for a high price if it can be converted for free into scrap metal more expensive than gold. There is also a politician know.
    1. alone
      alone 20 January 2014 19: 43
      0
      Quote: Irokez
      There, it seems, with successful applications of the Exocet anti-ship missile, the French were pressed and they turned off the electronics,

      belay and where does the aircraft?

      Quote: Irokez
      If you have money, give it to the Americans and buy the F-35, but it’s very expensive because they won’t give it for cheap.


      too expensive toy, even more expensive to keep these toys in airbases.
    2. Zymran
      Zymran 20 January 2014 19: 47
      0
      Quote: Irokez
      There, it seems as if with the successful applications of the Exocet anti-ship missile, the French were pressed and they turned off the electronics, which later served as an anti-advertising of French high-tech technology in general.


      They didn't turn off anything. Exocets simply ran out of Argentina, and in the last combat use they still managed to drown the Atlantic Conveyor
      1. Irokez
        Irokez 20 January 2014 20: 01
        0
        Have all Exocets found a target?
        Yes, there were very few of them there, like carrier aircraft, but nevertheless, at the right time, the electronics could not work. We either cannot say for sure whether or not it was.
        1. Zymran
          Zymran 20 January 2014 20: 02
          0
          Yes, there were only five of them. In the last battle, the Exosets were driven away by interference from the dipoles from the aircraft carrier and hit the container ship, however, in the very first combat use, when the Argentines drowned Sheffield, one missile also lost its course and went to sea, but the second hit the destroyer.
  • Irokez
    Irokez 20 January 2014 19: 48
    0
    - Airplanes are not worth it, but they are also disconnected from the satellite and can be used as mannequins.
    - Well, that is, money can be played and expensive (oil is). Well, you can show for rent to study different manufacturers and keep on it. )))
  • polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch 20 January 2014 20: 18
    0
    Uncle Sam will not allow Brazil to buy anything from us, it is as clear as daylight! Although it would be great (I dream!), But in reality now we ourselves do not have enough capacities.
    1. Zymran
      Zymran 20 January 2014 20: 22
      0
      Yeah of course. Even Iraq can afford to buy Russian weapons, but Obama does not give Brazilians. laughing
  • vm68dm
    vm68dm 20 January 2014 20: 20
    0
    Quote: andrei332809
    Quote: Kasym
    We will continue to observe

    Following your vidio! hi
  • lx
    lx 20 January 2014 22: 43
    +1
    Quote: Kasym
    Zimran, in fact at the moment, there is no 4-generation fighter aircraft in Europe. Will explain . Each country, in its own way, conducts a series of tests. But approximately it looks like this.
    Series 1 is a glider, aerodynamics, fuselage rigidity, overflights, etc.
    2 series - this is the radar, weapons, electronics. Now the T-50 is at this stage.
    Series 3 - this is debugging all systems for interaction, communication there, navigation, ACS, etc.
    I definitely do not know, but something like that.

    ))))))) you exactly do not know. Everything is absolutely wrong