Military Review

Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?

82
Only a decent payment will return and retain qualified OPK specialists.


At a press conference on the implementation of the 2013 state defense order, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov, noting the positive trends in the implementation of the rearmament program, acknowledged that the Defense Ministry and the military-industrial complex had significant difficulties that, despite the significance of the resources allocated, jeopardize the effectiveness of spent efforts, and the problem of "defense" and the poor quality of products.

To resolve this issue, they switch to long-term contracts for the full life cycle of ordered products and new algorithms for financing work. Military acceptance is being restored and pressure on the defense in terms of time and quality is increasing.

Undoubtedly, such measures can affect the situation. However, it is unlikely to be sufficient if one imagines that the quality of weapons is not only reliability, but also the conformity of its functionality with promising ways of conducting combat. And this should be achieved not according to the scenario of well-known long-term construction projects - we work, as it turns out, but as it should and within the required time frame.

Key motive for the professional

Without qualified personnel this cannot be achieved. But for the time being, their deficit in the DIC remains, despite the efforts of educational institutions. This trend can be reversed only by creating conditions where qualified personnel do not see another place for their self-realization, except in the military-industrial complex. And they value this place.

Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?The directors of the defense enterprises in the Soviet Union understood this perfectly well, but they are underestimated by the majority of their successors today - by modern top-managers. Although not only the directors have changed, but also the modern specialist.

Such a highly qualified specialist, on the one hand, according to sociologists, becoming the owner of their knowledge and skills, is more mobile and free. Unlike the workers of the old, the Soviet formation is independent of the employer and in a different way builds relations with him. He sells him not only his work, skills and knowledge, but also his attitude - trust and loyalty in a competitive environment.

On the other hand, a qualified specialist is currently affected by the atmosphere of a consumer society - the result of reforms. When the measure of success for some becomes wealth, and for others who are not allowed to be wealth, the ability of their labor to ensure a decent life for their family. To achieve this, he is ready to earn anywhere he will pay more.

To gain trust and loyalty from a qualified specialist for the long term is possible only by an effective system of motivation that can not only retain, but also achieve quality from it.

In pre-reform times, patriotism was the key motive in this system. This intangible motive has been preserved today. At least for those who could leave the country, but remain and work in the defense industry.

To rely only on this is delusion or deceit. Especially under the conditions existing in the “defense industry” realities, when the interests of top managers and other employees are unbalanced and there are conditions for social tensions.

Guest workers pay more

The average monthly salary of an employee in the defense industry, according to statistics, slightly exceeds 30 thousand rubles. If we keep in mind that for “average wages” there is a spread, when only 20 percent of workers can receive wages above the average, and less than 60, then a considerable part of the workers of the defense industry, creating high-tech products, is in a position close to to disastrous. Let's compare this with the situation of cleaners, plumbers and painters, whose salaries in the capital are going to be brought in 2014 to 25 – 30 thousand rubles.

And the matter is not only in the limited funding and the lack of workload of defense industry enterprises. According to the data given in the newspaper “Military Industrial Complex”, in a fairly successful and funded space industry, only three and a half thousand came to the Moscow region’s enterprises in 2012 only in the Moscow region instead of the five thousand left. Is this the reason for the recent failures with the "Protons", for all their ambiguity?

Another situation with the salary of top management. His average monthly salary is two to three times the salary of other workers. For production workers, this ratio is even greater. And this is despite the fact that the management personnel in the organization of the defense industrial complex can be up to 25 percent of the total number of employees.

Maybe that is why, in terms of material motivation and flexibility of its use for skilled workers in the defense industry, modern top management sometimes shows surprising inefficiency for his salary? The fact that the methods of obtaining this salary, if they are not corruption, then have its individual characteristics, few people think.

On the one hand, receiving a salary, as under capitalism, the top management manages, as under socialism, when the state took over most of the concerns about the state of qualified specialists in the defense industry. On the other hand, paying for the hard work of qualified specialists, as under socialism, he expects productivity and quality from them, as under capitalism.

The price of such imbalance is high. Only the Russian business due to the lack of an effective system of motivation among the staff, according to AXES Management agency, annually loses more than 200 billions of dollars. Even if this is an overestimated number, the missed opportunities should still be alarming.

There are no such data on the defense industry, but it can be assumed that there are considerable losses here too. The efficiency of its management is inferior to domestic business, including in terms of personnel motivation.

This is even explained: Russian defense enterprises, unlike the military-industrial complex in other countries, are not focused on economic efficiency, but solely on solving state defense tasks with all available capacities, when price is not the main criterion. The fact that foreign "defense" for unjustified cost overruns lose their position (and at other times lost not only her), is silent.

Significant improvement in management efficiency in the coming years is not expected. The level of the average monthly salary in the defense industry over 50 thousand rubles in the case of the implementation of existing plans for its development will be achieved only in 2020 year. Whereas Russian private companies, successfully invading the sphere of the state defense order, have already reached it in 2012, which, of course, is not an example for opponents of defense industry diversification.

Measures taken in the military-industrial complex - scholarships and additional payments to young specialists, partial compensation in payments for mortgage loans, organization of mortgages for the cost price, target contract preparation, social packages are unlikely to change the situation with personnel.

First, they are limited by resources available in the defense industry and do not apply to most qualified specialists. Secondly, the young workers who are replacing the old workers will become more and more each year, giving priority to the material evaluation of their work, which is adequate to its results.

It is unlikely to retain and rely on the trust and loyalty of young professionals in the long term, even by compensating part of the costs when paying for mortgage loans or organizing a mortgage at cost if it “eats” half or more of the salary of a skilled worker, and its size is not much larger than the guest worker’s salary. What decision in these conditions will be made by a qualified worker, having paid for a mortgage, it is not difficult to predict.

A similar result can be expected from measures to retain specialists through the mechanisms of targeted contractual training, despite the fact that it is obligatory to pay twice the amount of costs associated with providing a place and social support for non-performance of obligations on the part of the graduate.

A situation arises, banal in its content, but destructive in consequences. Insufficient, and in some ways, archaic motivation does not allow retaining qualified personnel in the military-industrial complex, their absence affects the quality of defense products, its poor quality worsens the economy of enterprises, and their weak capabilities do not allow for the fulfillment of state defense orders. Here and military acceptance will be powerless.

Therefore, along with the use of new algorithms for financing the defense industry, the revival of military acceptance and the restoration of military science as necessary conditions for the fulfillment of state defense orders, a transition to modern approaches to the motivation of specialists in the defense industry is required, when the amount of wages must correspond to the result and not to a certain amount.

Frame saving path

Miser pays twice. Probably, we have already paid more, if we turn to the defense long-term construction. But this is not so important if they decided to catch up in a short time.

And here we must begin by establishing the responsibility of top managers for the preservation of qualified personnel, which was already recommended by the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation in 2012.

Today there is no such responsibility. Yes, and the wages of top managers also do not depend on the position in their organizations with qualified specialists. The indicators adopted for assessing the effectiveness of the organizations of the defense industrial complex — the number of employees, the average wage and the number of those who underwent retraining — are insufficient. They do not provide a complete picture of the real situation with highly professional employees - staffing by key specializations, degree of satisfaction, stability of staff, etc. The same average monthly salary for an enterprise does not have a value that is more convenient for manipulating statistics and salary.

Other indicators are needed. For example, the average wage growth rate for key specializations, the reduction of its deviation from the median value (the wage value, more or less of which 50 percent of employees receive), the percentage of specialists turnover, etc.

Of course, such an approach to the assessment of top management will require him to change his attitude towards the assessment of the labor of his employees through appropriate indicators. But their achievements will depend on the effectiveness of planning, organization and control, which will have to provide the top management. Only by solving this problem, he can show his qualifications and change the perception among effective workers in the organizations of the defense industrial complex about effective managers.

There is no other way to retain qualified personnel in the long term. Moreover, its potential is quite high and will not require the attraction of additional resources. So, only the inclusion of modern management mechanisms, including due to effective motivation, and the reduction of the costs in the framework of the state defense order even by a few percent would have allowed to find the enormous funds that are needed for a substantial increase in wages in the MIC and ensure its competitiveness. Soon, not in 2020.

However, the efforts of defense enterprises alone will not be enough. It is also necessary to participate in solving the problem of the customer, who determines the rules for the formation and implementation of the state defense order.

So, if the indicator of the average wage is necessary for the formation of the price of the state defense order, then when monitoring its implementation, when the customer requires not to exceed this indicator, the possibility of maneuvering means within the total price is excluded. Under these conditions, it is impossible to apply effective motivation systems in the defense industry. Here, without reaching an understanding between the customer and the DIC is indispensable.

But even these efforts will be ineffective if lawmakers do not join the problem. They should already be concerned about the issue of continuous price growth in the country and its impact on lowering the standard of living of the human resources potential of the defense industry complex. Moreover, the rise in prices, caused not by objective reasons, but by the greed of trade, public utilities, etc.

At stake is the implementation of the adopted plans for the rearmament of the army and the modernization of industry in the set time frame. The fact that they can be broken, suggests past experience. Perhaps the time has come for legislators, to paraphrase a well-known expression, to adopt the slogan “Guns instead of super-profits” and contribute to the defense security of the country.
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  1. sds555
    sds555 16 January 2014 18: 22
    +6
    Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry? Humpbacked, he is Tagged, EBN, he is an alcoholic, they don’t give them awards and put up monuments like something from grateful descendants !!!! am am
    1. Vitaly Anisimov
      Vitaly Anisimov 16 January 2014 18: 37
      +14
      I already wrote something about this problem .. Here's a little different express myself. These cadres for the military-industrial complex are forged and trained in the same way as in sports from the backyard provincial hockey teams .. Of the hundreds, they select and begin to advance further (could not stand the dropout right away) there are new ones .. Natural selection is called .. So it was in Soviet times .. Most managers and designers left the province after going through all the steps ..
      1. sds555
        sds555 16 January 2014 19: 04
        +3
        Well, if we take sports as an example under the USSR, then a boy could fall into hockey, both from a working-class family and from a family of a party official, would there be a desire and talent, and now? For all pay-rent ice, uniform, etc. often get into the team not because of talent, but the presence of money from the pope, something like that
      2. starshina78
        starshina78 16 January 2014 19: 16
        +35
        I have worked in factories all my life. Metallurgical and now for a long time at the plant of heavy engineering. And I can compare how it was then and how it is now. In the city where I live there was an institute, three technical schools, and five vocational schools, all of them trained specialists of different levels for factories. One vocational school is strictly for the military, one for construction, and three for metallurgy, heavy machinery and chemistry. From the institute they went to work at factories as engineers, there, basically, where they did practice either at the metallurgical or at the heavy machinery. The technical schools were "pocket", that is, at the factories, and they trained mid-level specialists for their factories, well, with vocational schools it is clear. If at some factories there was a salary, but bad with apartments (samstroy), then at the military and the salary and apartments, and at heavy labor there were quarters. For example: a person who came from the village to work as a turner or any other machine operator, was immediately provided with lifting, a hostel, after three years of work - a room, five - an apartment, in connection with the increase in the family received an expansion, and then the resettlement of children. And it has always been that way. What about now. First: the number of employees at all four factories has decreased from 85 (approximately, plus or minus five thousand), to 000 (approximately, plus or minus one hundred). How! It comes to the ridiculous, people under 18 are standing at the machines! Because - because young people do not want to go to factories! They graduate from the institute and go to work with everyone, but not for the plant. Graduated from the faculty of steel, go to work as a manager in a trading company or in "Stroysharashkontormontazh", and studied on the budget, which means free. Vocational schools prepare the devil knows who, but not for factories and construction sites. Colleges (former technical schools) too. It became not interesting to work at factories! The salary is paid from the ceiling. today they will pay well, and next month crumbs. Like, the plan was not made. Which one? We have no plans, everyone works on orders. But top managers get such a salary that their hair stands on end. The director flies to work in a helicopter, and the worker cuts the last horseradish into nickels. Young people see all this anger goes to work! She likes to work better in small shops, shops, warehouses, and in the security. Until distribution in universities resumes, vocational schools resume training specialists, and until the prestige of the worker is raised, showing and filming films about workers, and employers will not build free housing or to give housing in installments for twenty years without interest for specialists, they will not go to work at factories. Salary goes without saying!
        1. vadson
          vadson 16 January 2014 20: 16
          +12
          I agree, there are still different points. who wants to go to work for an uncle who doesn’t value your work but like cheese in butter on your hump, but he’s been a horse. on ... I'll go to him.
          it is necessary to fight with nouveau riches. our people are fair and wise. remembers how privatization was carried out. He sees how proteges from Moscow bankrupt and sell companies. you look at their faces, a hand reaches for a brick.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. sanitarlesa
            sanitarlesa 16 January 2014 21: 11
            +4
            yes completely forgot !! it’s just funny .. I turned the shop manager for a decent salary .. I don’t remember the name of the plant .. on an aircraft engine .. they agreed to 50 dirty .. I’m thinking .. and this type comes up to me, puts his hand to his face and in a whisper .. agree guy. .and the main argument HERE TO WORK NOT NEEDED !!! I mean? !!! he looked so mysteriously ... well, like come on at least some are needed at least where. .. Cutters soldered last century ..this is on the cnc ..but the chief is on the Porsche .. hmm. It was two years ago ... maybe I don’t know
          2. not good
            not good 16 January 2014 21: 34
            +7
            I agree completely! I got the first salary as a machine operator in front of the army about 200 rubles., Beg. the workshop received (without a bonus) 250 rubles, and the turner of the 6th category received about 600 rubles. And now a relative, the machine operator of the 5th category receives 30t.r. while the beginning. workshops more than 100 tr young animals work on the machine 20-25t.r, and the guard in the store 25-30t.r. I remember, during the cooperative movement even before the collapse of the USSR, the IPC was repairing the factory team according to some tricky cooperative payment scheme. So the cooperators repaired the ship in some fantastic time, two times faster than usual, and those who were responsible for this repair from the authorities revolved around from morning to night everyone's salary depended on how quickly and efficiently everything is done.
            Until the current chiefs, at least of the middle and lower level, are motivated for the final result, and the salaries of at least highly skilled workers are not close to the shop superiors, problems with personnel and the final result will not go anywhere.
            1. ty60
              ty60 17 January 2014 01: 02
              0
              NEP, gentlemen! NEP. The bald red-haired Jew was right.
          3. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 16 January 2014 21: 48
            +7
            Quote: sanitarlesa
            IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO LIFE THE INDUSTRY FOR THE WORKING PERSON

            It's only the beginning...
            1. sanitarlesa
              sanitarlesa 16 January 2014 22: 26
              +3
              Now I think it all fell apart. At the factory, as they began to delay their salaries, they began to steal who they planted. They started stealing boards from machine tools because there metals are precious. You come and the machine turned into rubbish. Then there was nothing to steal equipment from))) and around the city a lot of private offices where these machines work to this day. top managers and managers sign a contract. that the company is obliged to pay a certain amount, the head of the building receives 15 thousand per working day. despite the fact that trucks are produced 5 times less !!! than in the USSR. In Soviet times, they couldn’t pay the whole salary .. the unit moved on to the next month .. he also worked as a milling machine operator. but there were business trips. the question is why not all? The answer is what do you want as a plant director to receive 500 rubles per month? apartment from the state. then the expansion in connection with the birth of the second. 10 years ago I talked with him was a normal person and drank but .. now all along the way. no specialist from it. cheap alcohol and two packs a day did their job. sad story. so diapers will have to be purchased. there will be no one to do them soon
              1. ty60
                ty60 17 January 2014 01: 14
                +2
                It’s sad for 14 years. I don’t smoke. Alcohol is medium statistical. We are also one of those who were taught in the USSR. Moreover, we taught one more quality, ABILITY TO LEARN. You can’t learn something new, unemployed. Movement is life. It has stopped developing, it has died. Sometimes- literally.
            2. Suhov
              Suhov 16 January 2014 22: 37
              0
              Quote: Yarosvet
              It's only the beginning...

              What are you implying? recourse
              For 3-D printers that will replace engineers and workers? sad
              1. Yarosvet
                Yarosvet 16 January 2014 23: 11
                +4
                Quote: Sukhov
                What are you implying?

                I am not hinting, I am saying plainly that the country is sliding towards feudalism.
                1. I am
                  I am 17 January 2014 01: 38
                  +1
                  Well, yes, almost there. the former GPP-3 bought the YPC, they dispersed everyone, there were 5 workshops left, the rest under rent. Everything is aviation .... in its place, in the very building where the designer shopping center was sitting orange -. Well, the rest of our factories, about which I know, are also no better. At the same time, some make attempts, buy machines, try to work - NO SPECIALISTS !!!! The plant named after S. Ordzhonikidze at first dispersed all qualified people, and now it is trying to lure students. Only ALL normal students have been WORKING since the second year. And who will go to the factory? That's right - what is left ..... sorry for the defense industry.
          4. Kite
            Kite 17 January 2014 00: 07
            +1
            Is everything measured in money? That the author of the article, that you and everyone else are inclined towards a monetary value. But is it possible to compete with trade? Labor costs are much less, and the profit is not only legal. Everyone was brainwashed with Atlantic water ("the nose will be easily washed out of the Atlantic by water" - there was such a stupid advertising slogan, designed for the brains already washed out by "Atlantic water"), everyone rushed to consume more (earn and spend). At one time, I also left science, then en masse everyone retrained, if not into brokers, then into shuttles. But, after a while, I remembered: what will I tell my grandchildren, who was I, what did I do? What is the point of saving up from your salary for a trip abroad if there is no one to tell about what you have seen and experienced?
            Recently, when recruiting staff, I have encountered a problem: salaries are very competitive, the topics are closed - on the one hand it is easier to prepare a dissertation, and on the other it is more difficult to travel outside the country. And all the young people only dream not to travel around the Korel regions, but to rinse their asses in the Red Sea.
            Of course, in state-owned enterprises with the salaries of top managers it is necessary to establish the correct fair correspondence, in high schools should provide budget places for those specialties that are required by the defense complex and under strategic state programs, only!
            1. I am
              I am 17 January 2014 01: 46
              0
              Not everything is measured by money. However, I want to eat, and it would not hurt to get dressed. And when you come to the plant (I worked there for a long time), you find that, on the one hand, an elderly chief who is not versed in modern technologies, and on the other hand, the manager and director demanding everything at once and have a 200% profit. And how to work here, well, they started, well, it started to turn out ..... so we were merged by the old-timers who didn’t want to relearn, and the director introduced a new one anyway, only having discharged the implementers from Moscow, and lowered the department head, but he still remained sitting in place and continues to spread rot all who can compete with him.
              As for the challenge, but the trouble, the correspondence - everyone wants to buy, excuse - we work for us once. Ochniki, even worse - just do not study, just turn your back on social networks climb ....... And what to do? Make ????? No - it is necessary to conduct a selection so that random people with 100 points for a subject could not go to a university where they are preparing a specialist. Yes, and teachers are now so loaded with paper work, iOS reports, a personal account in scopus, etc., that there really is no time to conduct classes.
          5. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 00: 58
            0
            Absolutely true. The attitude is swine, like we are writing paper. But they really build up, who knows how to WORK with MODERN EQUIPMENT, and not with fax and photocopy machines. It’s time to change the trend. It’s time for managers to look at the EFFECTIVENESS of REAL QUALITY PRODUCTS. And it’s not about the dough that is mostly stolen from us taxpayers.
        3. calocha
          calocha 16 January 2014 20: 43
          +2
          It is necessary to restore the vocational school system. After graduation, oblige graduates to work for five years in production ... But it is expensive for "helicopter pilots", because they got used to everything at once, and even on a platter.
          1. atalef
            atalef 16 January 2014 21: 34
            +3
            Quote: calocha
            Need to restore vocational school system

            Is it necessary that after vocational school it would be possible to find work with a decent salary, or who will go there?
            1. AVV
              AVV 17 January 2014 12: 36
              0
              In Soviet times, the salary at the production site and at the military-industrial complex was small, as it is today, but the main incentive for the employee and the main value, as now, was the apartment, which was a young special. in his property could get, after 15-20 years of work at the enterprise, and before that time, the apartment was considered in temporary use, i.e. in a dormitory, if a worker left production very early, then he also had to vacate the area, so the production manager would solve two problems, tie up personnel and create entire dynasties that worked at one enterprise with a small salary, plus departmental nurseries, kindergartens, low prices, plus trade union sanatoriums, rest houses, boarding houses, departmental clinics i.e. the worker was protected and provided with housing, and it costs more !!!
        4. Per se.
          Per se. 16 January 2014 21: 49
          +5
          Quote: starshina78
          Graduated from the steel department, go to work as a manager in a trading company
          Moreover, who are these "managing directors" and "leading managers"? Often those who have nothing to do with science and technology, for whom one is important, and, a moment's indicator, is profit. The traders do not succeed in dealing with production, then they begin to cut costs, and, naturally, they do not save on themselves, not on their bonuses and millions of salaries, but by cutting workers and merging and uniting production. It rarely gets better. As long as the attitude towards production is according to the concepts of racketeers, nothing good will come of it. Now Vladimir Vladimirovich has spoken about an increase in productivity, and "effective" managers-traders will do this by making people run along the corridors to run, and for a minute delay they will be fined and fired. Our government should have a clear plan for the development of domestic industry, with the preservation and development of production, design bureaus, retention and training of personnel. And, the defense industry should be run by specialists, not traders and other "managers" akin to Serdyukov.
          1. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 01: 20
            0
            I completely agree. Yet Krylov said trouble-how many pies-the cobbler will take the furnace. The main link of managers DOES NOT UNDERSTAND. How they work to try to manage. PROFESSIONALS should manage industries, not managers ...
        5. The comment was deleted.
        6. Stalker
          Stalker 16 January 2014 22: 07
          +2
          One vocational school is strictly for the military, one for construction, and three for metallurgy, heavy machinery and chemistry

          There are specialties in the military-industrial complex which are nowhere to be taught. Derived for example a parachute stacker. They are paid as painters. And they lay parachutes not only for catapults but also for manned spacecraft. People who work there for 50 years work there. So what ? These will leave and where is the change? The work is monotonous, boring. You can’t lure the young ones. Having heard about the salary of 30 tyr. just grin and go to the office plankton position .....
      3. Orik
        Orik 16 January 2014 19: 49
        +1
        Most managers and designers left the province after going through all the steps.

        Previously, these "steps" were many and everywhere, there was plenty to choose from, but now there is no. Most of the mechanical engineering bye-bye, and the military-industrial complex is also a high level of mechanical engineering.
      4. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 16 January 2014 21: 37
        +7
        Quote: MIKHAN
        Natural selection is called

        This is now a type of "natural" selection.

        And in the Union (until the mid-70s) there was competition in which the main criterion for victory was a positive result and a successful solution of the task, rather than immorality, the ability to bend and the presence of connections, as it is now.

        Moreover, due to the excellent social guarantees for that time, the competition was for the result and additional pleasant nyashki, and not for the loot and the opportunity to get out of the semi-poor state.

        In the USSR, people spent energy on creativity and improving the result, now the bulk of the energy is spent on fear of tomorrow and an attempt to avoid impending poverty.
    2. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 16 January 2014 18: 37
      +16
      Quote: sds555
      Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?

      No one...
      And never ...
      Forgive me to sing ".. All is well, beautiful marquise ...".
      Personnel were trained by the Ministry of Education and Science and the Ministry of Higher Education, working together with line ministries. And today the exam - such an ambushthat before resuscitation of vocational schools and other specialized educational institutions - like walking to China ...
      1. Sea snake
        Sea snake 16 January 2014 19: 29
        +1
        Quote: Author of the article
        Perhaps the time has come for lawmakers, to paraphrase the famous expression, to adopt the slogan “Guns instead of superprofits” and make its contribution to ensuring the country's defense security.

        What are you, what are you ... their internal slogans "After us even the flood"and ..."How to be at the brook and not get drunk"somehow don't dock with yours"Guns instead of superprofits".
        1. ty60
          ty60 17 January 2014 01: 23
          0
          Well, the cannons are already taking superprofits.
    3. baltika-18
      baltika-18 16 January 2014 18: 42
      +18
      Quote: sds555
      Who will be responsible for the personnel shortage of the defense industry? Humpbacked, he's Tagged, EBN, he's a drunk

      22 years passed after Humpbacked, 13 years after Babai. And the reform of education was started in 2004 by Putin and Fursenko. So, anyway, Putin and his protege Medvedev should be added to your candidates.
      1. sledgehammer102
        sledgehammer102 16 January 2014 18: 53
        -4
        Quote: baltika-18
        22 years passed after Humpbacked, 13 years after Babai. And the reform of education was started in 2004 by Putin and Fursenko. So, anyway, Putin and his protege Medvedev should be added to your candidates.


        If you say so, then it would be nice to give statistics on the growth of salaries of defense industry employees by years from 1993 to this day. The current salary is far from being called a worthy person forging the armor of his country, but TRENDS are more important than FACTS.
        I think with the implementation of orders GOZov and salary will increase, since the unit cost will be reduced by reducing costs, which can be spent on salaries and technical re-equipment.
        1. ty60
          ty60 17 January 2014 01: 25
          0
          First reward effective tricksters
        2. not good
          not good 18 January 2014 13: 01
          +1
          While salaries are growing only among deputies ...
      2. alone
        alone 16 January 2014 18: 55
        +5
        Quote: baltika-18
        22 years passed after Humpbacked, 13 years after Babai. And the reform of education was started in 2004 by Putin and Fursenko. So, anyway, Putin and his protege Medvedev should be added to your candidates.


        No, it's only Dima-lightning conductor that is to blame. VVP is innocent. laughing
      3. Russ69
        Russ69 16 January 2014 20: 17
        +1
        Quote: baltika-18
        And the reform of education began in 2004 by Putin

        baltika-18, I’m interested, but is GDP not at least to blame for something?
        I don’t stand up for anyone now, especially for the reform, which I am skeptical of. Just wondering... smile
        1. atalef
          atalef 16 January 2014 21: 36
          +2
          Quote: Russ69
          baltika-xnumx, i'm wondering, but is GDP at least not guilty?

          he is definitely not to blame for the conception of DAM
          1. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 01: 26
            0
            drinksWillingly believe
        2. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 16 January 2014 21: 53
          +4
          Quote: Russ69
          I wonder, but GDP at least in something, is not to blame?

          Aha - not system jambs have nothing to do with it.
          1. Russ69
            Russ69 16 January 2014 23: 50
            0
            Quote: atalef
            Quote: Russ69
            baltika-xnumx, i'm wondering, but is GDP at least not guilty?

            he is definitely not to blame for the conception of DAM

            Quote: Yarosvet
            Quote: Russ69
            I wonder, but GDP at least in something, is not to blame?

            Aha - not system jambs have nothing to do with it.

            Then, I advise you to see when the saga began with the exam and other reforms. The consequences of these reforms can only be assessed in a few years. But the problems in the defense industry began, not in the early 2000s.
            Well, come on, let the GDP be your fault. It’s easier to explain everything, even to understand, nothing is needed ... hi
    4. alone
      alone 16 January 2014 18: 53
      +1
      Quote: sds555
      Who will be responsible for the personnel shortage of the defense industry? Humpbacked, he is Tagged, EBN, he is an alcoholic, they don’t give them awards and put up monuments like something from grateful descendants !!!!


      maybe they give them rewards for ruining everything)).
      1. CALL.
        CALL. 16 January 2014 20: 10
        +6
        Who's guilty? All ministers of ministries and departments since 1992. All prime ministers, starting with Gaidar, all presidents, starting with Gorbachev, all deputies starting with the Council of (non) People’s Deputies (with no big exception), and then the Duma, and other governors, mayors and prefects. For all of them, the guilt before the people is enormous. The time will come. And everyone will be rewarded. God is not in power, but in truth
        1. Normal
          Normal 16 January 2014 22: 33
          +3
          Quote: Z.O.V.
          Who's guilty? All ministers of ministries and departments since 1992. All prime ministers, starting with Gaidar, all presidents, starting with Gorbachev, all deputies starting with the Council of (non) People’s Deputies (with no big exception), and then the Duma, and other governors, mayors and prefects.


          The list is not complete.
          Part of the blame for the results of the long-term policy lies with those who approve and support this policy. Those who justify the current leadership by constantly asking the idiotic question "Is Putin to blame again?" No, Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin are to blame, and Putin has absolutely nothing to do with it.
          The numerous supporters of GDP on the site are also to blame, because for the sake of personal satiety and great-power pride they forgive the authorities and theft and inaction.
          1. Russ69
            Russ69 16 January 2014 23: 52
            -1
            Quote: Normal
            The numerous supporters of GDP on the site are also to blame, because for the sake of personal satiety and great-power pride they forgive the authorities and theft and inaction.

            Exclusively above. After all, they are always to blame, only those who do not support ideas, their beloved ones ... smile
          2. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 01: 32
            +1
            Do not be afraid of the offender, in extreme cases, he will kill you. Do not be afraid of a friend, in extreme cases, he will betray you. Fear the indifferent, only with their tacit consent they commit treason and murder. Nikolay Ogarev.
    5. atalef
      atalef 16 January 2014 21: 33
      +3
      Quote: sds555
      Who will be responsible for the personnel shortage of the defense industry? Humpbacked, aka Tagged, EBN

      Gorbachev has not been in power for 25 years. EBN- 13 years. The term of study at school is -11 years, technical school -4 years, institute-5 years.
      How many and who could have been raised during this time? More WWII replenish.
      1. Russ69
        Russ69 16 January 2014 23: 55
        0
        Quote: atalef
        How many and who could have been raised during this time?

        They were raised both under Humpback and under EBN and continue to continue.
        But, where did these nurtured cadres work?
        Especially with EBN and the early 2000s.
    6. A.YARY
      A.YARY 16 January 2014 22: 43
      +3
      Quote
      Without qualified personnel, this cannot be achieved. But while their deficit in the defense industry continues,
      What a funny saying!
      I have written many times - EDUCATION is the backbone of the basics! Without a return to Soviet education, we will slide (if not already) to stamping out idiots, ignoramuses! And no matter how hard you try, you won't even make a handyman for Defense!
      Those individuals who leave the walls of schools sometimes cannot even speak normally. Not only physics or chemistry, they can’t connect two words.
      In my city there were vocational schools, they produced turners, tokoy-toolmakers, locksmith
      1. A.YARY
        A.YARY 16 January 2014 22: 56
        +2
        2
        and many more! And how many vocational schools in the city are ZERO!
        Our education is destroyed by our enemies with the help of our rulers.
        We are turning into a country of rams, and there is no reason for a ram to defend a ram, to poop and poet is all interests, why does it need a defense?
        Those people who spend every day of their lives creating fantastic things get shish without oil! They work on enthusiasm and faith, which are less and less every day!
        And who will replace them? MENEGERS!
        Inertia will one day end, and probably already end, that’s the result.
    7. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg 17 January 2014 00: 23
      0
      Quote: sds555
      Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry? Humpbacked, he is Tagged, EBN, he is an alcoholic, they don’t give them awards and put up monuments like something from grateful descendants !!!! am am


      Che trifle then? The United States will respond, in all severity of the revolutionary time!
    8. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 00: 41
      0
      one is already buried. the second one at the turnip is eating up. People are from the past. We must live at least today, taking care of tomorrow.
  2. andrei332809
    andrei332809 16 January 2014 18: 23
    +4
    where is the ptu? where am I?
    py.s. ahhh, I know ... produce accountants and lawyers
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 16 January 2014 18: 25
      +10
      Now it’s not colleges but colleges, they train landscape designers and the like, but you won’t find a turner, you used to look for an intelligent one and now you can draw a sketch for a machine that’s suitable. Like this.
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 16 January 2014 18: 31
        +5
        Quote: klimpopov
        and you won’t find a turner

        Turner Rappoport cut the pass, rasp and support wassat tongue
      2. ankh-andrej
        ankh-andrej 16 January 2014 18: 32
        +2
        Colleges are former technical schools. And vocational schools really disappeared.
        1. 31231
          31231 16 January 2014 19: 32
          0
          Yah?! In a provincial town of parents of 2 pheasants, one definitely works and teaches cooks, drivers, electricians, welders.
          1. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 01: 46
            0
            Glad for your teens. The basic level will give, everything else is head, practice.
      3. Russ69
        Russ69 16 January 2014 20: 20
        0
        Quote: klimpopov
        Now it’s not colleges but colleges, they train landscape designers and the like

        In Moscow, maybe. We have worked as vocational schools since the Soviet Union, and work, and in the same principle, in principle, in the main, of course, there are new ones, but workers.
      4. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 16 January 2014 22: 04
        +2
        Quote: klimpopov
        Now it’s not colleges but colleges, they train landscape designers and the like, but you won’t find a turner, you used to look for an intelligent one and now you can draw a sketch for a machine that’s suitable. Like this.

        But are they needed, turners, in fact, if enterprises operate at 50% capacity and pay a penny by today's standards?
        1. PPL
          PPL 16 January 2014 22: 52
          +1
          Quote: Yarosvet
          Quote: klimpopov
          Now it’s not colleges but colleges, they train landscape designers and the like, but you won’t find a turner, you used to look for an intelligent one and now you can draw a sketch for a machine that’s suitable. Like this.

          But are they needed, turners, in fact, if enterprises operate at 50% capacity and pay a penny by today's standards?

          Enterprises are different - it depends on many factors, but not about that.
          But klimpopov is right, the need of enterprises (even 50% loaded) for specialists to work on CNC machines is big, in addition, there are no problems with electroplating, precision mechanics, SMT installation, and there is practically no one to do ordinary installation and assembly. If you do not prepare personnel, then you can forget about the remaining 50%.
          1. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 16 January 2014 23: 20
            +1
            Quote: PPZ
            the demand of enterprises (even 50% loaded) in specialists for working on CNC machines is large

            And the policy (of the management of the enterprise / state) to satisfy this need is expressed by the phrase - "eat the fish, and not choke on the bone"
            1. PPL
              PPL 16 January 2014 23: 26
              +2
              Yes, unfortunately, today’s management policy is to maximize profits at all costs with minimal investment.
      5. ty60
        ty60 17 January 2014 01: 44
        +1
        The education system is nowhere. In the 9th grade, the mathematician Aleksey Efimovich, his kingdom be heaven, ASKED THE QUESTION: WHY the head for mathematics? No one came up with a new one, to remember the formula. He refuted us, the head must know where to find the necessary formula in the reference book on elementary mathematics and apply it correctly. My task is to teach you this. Prepare at least a teacher with such a vision of the issue in education. Then the movement will be REAL. Not EGE
  3. Unisonic
    Unisonic 16 January 2014 18: 32
    +7
    The problem is complex. It is obvious that modern Russian society has already transformed into a consumer society of the worst possible model. This is not surprising - the modern Russian state has no national idea, it has no ideology. Consequently, the entire resulting vacuum is filled with the ideology of ordinary consumption, which pours out into "you need to get a salary, partly drink and eat, partly put off on a trip to Egypt and you need to buy a car", as well as the mass brutality of people who have only money in their minds. This brutality (like corruption, like cutting down money in everything that is possible, even in the church) arises on the basis of the main goal of the consumer society - self-enrichment. the subjects of such a society are not enough money, for example, demography begins to suffer - they say that poverty can be produced, money is not enough even to feed oneself, society begins to sink in corruption, etc.

    What does the staff have to do with it? And the cadres, despite the fact that in Soviet times people willingly went to study at vocational schools, technical schools, received a proper education and went to work as locksmiths, welders, plumbers, adjusters, for mechanical assembly work, stood up for machines, etc. Now, in a consumer society, this is not respectable. It’s okay to be a sales representative - to steam sweets and tobacco at points. And you say "yes i am a welder"- and in response to you"why didn’t you go to study law? And what better job could not find?". And that's why we have crowds of economists and lawyers with a higher education diploma who cannot connect two words by profession. Because their teachers do not care about the level of knowledge of their students - their main salary is to receive consistently for hours.

    And at the same time, the entire system of Soviet secondary technical / special education has now collapsed. Higher education is also ridiculous, where 5th year students of the history faculty state that the Cold War ended with the death of Stalin.

    Сonclusion: there are no personnel - because there is no education in this country. It is destroyed in the same way as the rest of the social sphere, as are the branches of the national economy. But it’s not enough to restore all of this - the country should have a national idea that will squeeze out stupid obscurity from people and return them to the true path, as it was in the highly cultured, deeply spiritual Russian Empire and in the completely materialistic, highly developed Soviet Union.
    1. Khrushchev
      Khrushchev 16 January 2014 19: 59
      0
      Quote: Unisonic
      Higher education is also ridiculous, where students at the 5th year history faculty state that the Cold War ended with the death of Stalin

      yah??? and therefore you judge the low intelligence of today's youth. Well, the majority on this site thinks the same way. The question is, and what conclusions ?????
    2. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 16 January 2014 22: 20
      +2
      Quote: Unisonic
      The problem is complex
      Right.

      Obviously, modern Russian society has already transformed into a worst-case consumer society out of the possible
      It is not at all obvious: what kind of consumer society can we talk about if, by modern standards, de facto, more than half of the country's citizens live below the poverty line, and another 30% live close to this line? Or if you don’t weave bast shoes and buy shoes in a store, are you part of a consumer society?

      the modern Russian state has no national idea
      Right.

      he has no ideology
      Bullshit - carefully read the first 2 chapters of the Constitution.

      Consequently, the entire vacuum that has formed is filled with the ideology of ordinary consumption ... and also into the mass brutality of people who have only money on their minds. This brutality (like corruption, as well as cutting money for everything that is possible, even in the church) arises on the basis of the main goal of the consumer society - self-enrichment
      First of all, all this arises from the lack of adequate social guarantees: if tomorrow someone becomes disabled, then in most cases this one and his family will be at the bottom - that's why they try to grab a reserve as much as possible.
      People compete not for the best and most useful result, but for the loot, the presence of which in modern conditions is synonymous with the concept of "survival".

      The rest is generally true.
      1. ty60
        ty60 17 January 2014 02: 08
        0
        The Armenian radio is asked the following question: Is it true that Professor Karapetyan won 10 rubles in the monetary and clothing lottery? Answer: Firstly, not professor Karapetyan, but a student of Karapetyan. Secondly, not in the monetary and clothing lottery but in preference, thirdly not 000 10 and all the chervonets, in the fourth, did not win, but lost. Otherwise, everything is true
    3. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 02: 00
      0
      I don’t agree on everything with you, but a shortage of professionals, especially in some technologies of the last century, who have NOT been decommissioned in sight yet. And it’s not shameful to say that I’m a cable man. hang on dowels. But we always survived this in all wars. cook soup from an ax.
  4. calocha
    calocha 16 January 2014 18: 36
    -2
    Answer must Serdyukov and KO!
    1. alone
      alone 16 January 2014 18: 57
      0
      Quote: calocha
      Answer must Serdyukov and KO!

      Just a group of performers. Serdyuk doesn’t roll on the all-Russian monster. The scope is not the same.
      1. Yves762
        Yves762 16 January 2014 19: 13
        +1
        Quote: lonely
        Just a group of performers. Serdyuk doesn’t roll on the all-Russian monster. The scope is not the same.
        - this does not mean that they should be ignored (although along the way it turns out ... sad ).
        IMHO, hydra all chopped off his head, and why no one tried to chop off her hands, for a start.?.
        1. alone
          alone 16 January 2014 21: 01
          +1
          Quote: Yves762
          - this does not mean that they should be ignored (although along the way it turns out ...).


          that's why he wrote that he ispolnitel. stool honest Thief, stole and shared with everyone. Otherwise, he would have died in a car accident or in a helicopter accident))
          1. ty60
            ty60 17 January 2014 02: 12
            0
            If I could, I would give an award for a new term, an honest thief. Although there was already a prototype, Yuri Detochkin.
          2. Yves762
            Yves762 17 January 2014 08: 45
            0
            Quote: lonely
            honest thief stool

            "A thief should sit in jail!"
            IMHO, an "honest thief" should sit honestly.
            The trouble is that Taburetkin seems not to shine. From these I, as a taxpayer and a person liable for military service, would have been comfortable with road accidents.
  5. jjj
    jjj 16 January 2014 18: 40
    +9
    Dads and mothers arrange their offspring in the departments to "warm places". To get a job in a more or less paid position, you have to give a bribe. Nepotism and patronage. Moreover, it amazed the people who glorified our defense industry during the Soviet era. Cities at large enterprises of the military-industrial complex drag out a miserable existence. Money, even earned money, is delayed. Family gesheftics are organized everywhere at defense industry enterprises. Diasporas adhere nearby.
    Sabotage is evident in the vertical environment of industry management. In the defense industry, one must stupidly start planting in rows.
    1. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 02: 17
      0
      And when the scoop was different? For a quarter, our people on Vysotsky taxied in Saratov with the entire defense industry. And now there.
  6. kaktus
    kaktus 16 January 2014 18: 55
    +5
    The average salary at Izhmash is slightly more than 20000 rubles / month (from an article from this site about Izhmash). This is how the defense industry and machine tool builders are valued. "Madam, no hints are needed ..." wassat
    1. PPL
      PPL 16 January 2014 21: 53
      +2
      In other enterprises is not better. Workers, for example, have a salary without overtime - 20-30000 rubles (for machine operators, the truth is up to 50000), an engineer - 20-25000 rubles, an electronic engineer - about 40000 (information from ads from Zelenograd enterprises working for the defense industry).
      Someone may think that the salaries are decent, but given the high cost of living in Moscow, it’s only enough that the pants do not fall off when walking.
  7. Yurgens
    Yurgens 16 January 2014 18: 59
    +3
    ) break all the spears)) do not need anyone techies and engineers. there is oil and the like, as long as there is no one will twitch
  8. treskoed
    treskoed 16 January 2014 19: 01
    +2
    If in recent years the Armed Forces have been "killed" by eliminating combat units and weapons with the help of "effective managers", then this was to be expected. They sailed, but there are no guilty ones!
  9. Leader
    Leader 16 January 2014 19: 05
    +8
    Quote: calocha
    Answer must Serdyukov and KO!

    And what has “thief in law” Serdyukov to do with it? No sideways ... Everything is from above.
    Under Soviet rule, in our small factory-military unit, an engineer received 200-250 rubles, a director 450 rubles, and a good turner 300-350 rubles.
    And now the 50-year-old toss-assembler on TOZ collects machines for 15t.r. - poverty!
    Set the minimum wage for a turner to 50.000 rubles. - and in a couple of years you will forget about the "personnel shortage".
    And for 10-15t.r. let Abramovich and Waxelberg wave their sledgehammers ...
    Personally, I’m not going to, looking at the fattening Russian officials and corrupt politicians.
    1. Yves762
      Yves762 16 January 2014 19: 16
      0
      Quote: Leader
      Set the minimum wage for a turner to 50.000 rubles. - and in a couple of years you will forget about the "personnel shortage".

      After a couple of years, price increases will return everything to the same state. Here the problem is much more multifaceted than just a low salary. But what the current state has about ... these are the very instruments of solution - this is trouble ...
      1. saber
        saber 16 January 2014 20: 59
        0
        but let's try it all the same!
    2. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 16 January 2014 22: 29
      +3
      Quote: Leader
      Under the Soviet regime, in our small factory-military unit, the engineer received 200-250 rubles, the director 450 rubles, and a good turner 300-350 rubles
      And this is at the maximum rate in the country of 800 rubles.

      Set the minimum wage for a turner to 50.000 rubles. - and in a couple of years you will forget about the "personnel shortage".
      Nizzya - only enough money for the liampiada, loans for Hungary / Venezuela, and salaries to deputies / officials.
    3. sanitarlesa
      sanitarlesa 16 January 2014 22: 43
      0
      I support the perfect decision completely. Well, if only there was such a salary, the products should be of the highest level. And it is possible only with a developed industrial sector. Which is collapsed. But you need to start with the fact that people go to work in factories and not go to study law. and a programmer. Considering consumer relations, you need to start with wages.
    4. Stas
      Stas 17 January 2014 01: 01
      0
      Quote: Leader
      And now the 50-year-old toss-assembler on TOZ collects machines for 15t.r. - poverty!
      Set the minimum wage for a turner to 50.000 rubles. - and in a couple of years you will forget about the "personnel shortage".
      And for 10-15t.r. let Abramovich and Waxelberg wave their sledgehammers ...
      Personally, I’m not going to, looking at the fattening Russian officials and corrupt politicians.

      I agree with you, think in root. I will give my example from life.
      A couple of years ago, I worked at sea as an electrical engineer in a foreign company, received more than 150 tons, in Russian companies they are ready to pay 30-45 tons, on the shore even less than 25 tons. For me, the conclusion has long been obvious, as long as "our" hucksters want good specialists worked for a penny - everything will be in place. Now it is easier to work as a taxi driver or help in a store than as an engineer for a penny. Everything depends on a decent salary, and here there are no options.
    5. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 02: 18
      +1
      Are there any options to force them?
  10. Grbear
    Grbear 16 January 2014 19: 05
    +1
    To author +
    But this "voice in the wilderness". There are several reasons:
    • For upbringing a production foreman (not a supervisor) needs at least 10-15 years. And this is the basis of production at any level, since "robotic factories" are not on this site.
    • For training a worker needs at least 5-10 years, depending on the profession. No need for CNC machines. It is the "stupid" operators who, by increasing + 25% to the modes, are destroying them.
    • From the field of politics. "Bright" heads, according to the Western model, decided to diversify the production, which are sharpened by the military. You can also do a citizen in one workplace, but you cannot pay in different ways.
    • And etc…

    I began to list and understood ... Now the average age of the machinists is 53, but the personnel officers think differently (and report). In our university 70% - ladies, guys drag to the last, or rather, the very last.

    Uh
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov 16 January 2014 20: 58
      +1
      He used to teach at a military school. He was the head of the department. The next check is expected. The fifth course should be checked in the discipline studied in the third year. They set me the task of picking up questions and making a test of residual knowledge in such a way as to provide an average score = 4. Ordered completed. Now I teach almost the same discipline in a civilian university. Final control - offset with an assessment. I got the old test - 70% of deuces. Students just don't want to study. They know that the knowledge gained at the university, they will not need.
  11. max73
    max73 16 January 2014 19: 06
    +2
    Here is a specialist ran through the comments .. Unisonic, partly agree with you. I will try to explain why in part. I am sure that many of the users of this resource have grown-up children ... how many of them (you) advised their children to become welders, turners, millers, technologists from the best intentions? I think that few did so, again with the best of intentions ... and children .. they see life a little differently than their parents (this is a given). but if the parents did not neglect the upbringing, then the sons and daughters are not indifferent to the opinion of the "ancestors" and are potentially ready to listen to the opinion of their parents. Well, when dad and mom tell the child about a non-"royal" affair or something like that, what result do you want? Serdyukov dragged in, Gorbachev, Yeltsin ... yes, they messed up, each of their motives ... Unisonic says there is no education. it is, and it is vocational and technical ... another thing is that young people are not eager to learn, but they want to go to the mountains on the run. Damn, finding a track welder is a problem. you can blame anyone: the West, TNT, Sobchak ... but, I think, the role of parents has not been canceled.
    1. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 02: 34
      0
      The main trouble for all the sleeves is being able NOT to replace their children in everyday life. Only to suggest, give an instrument. Tell how to use it correctly. Our children are too divorced from real life. I would suggest, as one of the subjects of school education, I can fix the communal apartment myself . Make repairs simple, cosmetics. Villagers are more savvy in this regard. Children of the townspeople sometimes don’t know what the wall plug is and how to use it
  12. GUARDIAN ANGEL
    GUARDIAN ANGEL 16 January 2014 19: 06
    +2
    It is necessary to restore vocational schools and vocational schools at the factories that began to be destroyed during perestroika, it was a planned destruction imposed by the West, at the same time advertise the profession Economist and Lawyer, what goals were pursued - the destruction of industry, young people from dysfunctional families wherever they study, the loss of personnel resources etc. the simplest example is to look at your porch; everything is written there!
  13. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 16 January 2014 19: 13
    +2
    Quote: treskoed
    If in recent years the Armed Forces have been "killed" by eliminating combat units and weapons with the help of "effective managers", then this was to be expected. They sailed, but there are no guilty ones!

    Yes, we are all to blame .. if honestly .. As always we slowly harness .. while the thunder does not strike .. (effective managers understand this and take a moment chuckling ..) I think soon there will be a holiday on our street ..))) bully
  14. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 16 January 2014 19: 29
    +3
    No one will answer. In our country, more or less the same people are responsible for all failures. If they wanted to be brought to justice, this would have happened many years ago. About hunger. Practice shows where people pay. But they don’t want to pay.
  15. kind
    kind 16 January 2014 19: 37
    +7
    Here is another nasty phrase - top manager. What does he produce? Is he versed in technology? No, they used to be called - manager (supplier). There was a skew of values. A scientist, designer, scientist is valued below no economist or lawyer. I would be interested to see how a scientist, engineer, and lawyer, economist, manager will survive on a desert island, and so that a bowl of food depends on a contribution to the common cause of survival.
    1. max73
      max73 16 January 2014 19: 49
      0
      Well, I’m a manager, a civil engineer by training, a firefighter in the past ... do you think I won’t survive? at times, unlike many
      1. kind
        kind 16 January 2014 20: 05
        0
        It does not concern you, I meant those who are trying to control what they have no idea about.
      2. ty60
        ty60 17 January 2014 02: 41
        0
        And here’s the main thing-an engineer builder. Professionals the way!
    2. atalef
      atalef 16 January 2014 21: 37
      +1
      Quote: Good
      Here is another nasty phrase - top manager.

      Do not eat cooler. Manager in a clearing company.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 16 January 2014 22: 08
        +3
        Quote: atalef
        Manager in a clearing company.

        Can cleaning? Et-that operator of machine milking ... laughing
    3. ty60
      ty60 17 January 2014 02: 39
      0
      They used to be called quartermasters. Or -SHNIKI. The essence is preserved.
  16. coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 16 January 2014 19: 47
    +2
    Most likely we have managers of the wrong system! In1975 in the Canary Islands I sympathetically told the Spaniard (my 14th child in the family) that it was probably hard for them. Because in our USSR kindergartens and schools are free and you have everything for the money. And he answered says we also have a kindergarten and a school and honey attendants are free, the union pays for everything. This is with normal managers then, but now we don’t have managers and miscarriages! I think if the company has a kindergarten, a school and vocational schools, the turnover will immediately drop to zero . One salary does not solve the problem.
  17. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 16 January 2014 19: 57
    +3
    Quote: chunga-changa
    No one will answer. In our country, more or less the same people are responsible for all failures. If they wanted to be brought to justice, this would have happened many years ago. About hunger. Practice shows where people pay. But they don’t want to pay.

    In the USSR, specialists were trained for decades. And in the USA and Israel they paid well .. those whom we trained and cherished ... (brain drain, however, is called ..) Now this trend continues, we will train the specialist .. in practice we’ll let secret work out .. ( but he was no longer outbid ..) And so we live .. It's a shame and what to do .. (the printing press is not with us ..) Patriotism in Russia in Russia just started to have weight again .. (I remember calling it red brown and fool and they made such gestures ..) But there were always enough talented people in Russia (there was little support ..) and yet they made their way through the ranks of stupid officials and mediocrity .. Russia is worth it!
  18. Orik
    Orik 16 January 2014 20: 00
    0
    The author spent a long time thinking along the tree, came to the point of outright stupidity, they say, legislators should start raising prices. There is a personnel problem and it consists of many reasons. The most significant is the lack of continuity, a whole generation has been knocked out of action and this cannot be quickly made up, just as you do not try to simply NOT. And then, we have created bad-bad capitalism, and we have to compete for an employee, now the main factor is wages, it must be paid at the market level, and if we want professionals, then above the market. Moreover, these people are used to respecting themselves, the attitude of their superiors should be appropriate "I am the boss, you are the boss, I am" will not work.
  19. bubla5
    bubla5 16 January 2014 20: 02
    +3
    All this bullshit, it’s time to introduce the categories again, and tie the salary to the manager’s salary, for example, for the boss 100 tr, for the worker 3-4 grades 25 t.r, so if he wants to get 200 .., then let the workers increase, only without * parachutes *, and since now there is no salary lawlessness anywhere, and most importantly social, housing, schools and kindergartens
  20. polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch 16 January 2014 20: 12
    +2
    Correctly says "metallurgist" - cadres from a worker to an engineer need to be trained at the plant. The profit should be used for the construction of housing for the staff, for the training of personnel, and not for bonuses to "effective managers" who do not distinguish a bolt from a nut. they have already partially fled, if it goes on like this, then the rest will not be brought to justice, for example, the same master of stools, red-haired with the company.
  21. family tree
    family tree 16 January 2014 20: 13
    +2
    Who is Sevmash? There was a powerful training system, and even now the whole line seems to have been preserved, from the worker to the engineer.

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B2%D1%82%D1
    % 83% D0% B7

    http://narfu.ru/sf/sevmashvtuz//abit/spec.php
  22. Stinger
    Stinger 16 January 2014 20: 26
    +1
    They will answer as always uninvolved. And for a salary of 20-30 and 50 by 2020, thousand rubles. nobody needs to be cooked at all. Everything will fall apart by itself. The recipe is simple. Set a 50-100 thousand salary, give young specialists a deferment from the army while they work in the head enterprises of the defense industry complex, lift the ban on traveling abroad (completely ridiculous, given that the deputy secretary of the Security Council, Comrade Berezovsky, lived quietly in England, Laughter), and after 3 years, the maximum defense industry will be with young personnel selected by competition. Instead of "scientific mouths." It is necessary to do it juicy until professionals who can transfer their experience have reached the circulation.
    1. invisibility
      invisibility 16 January 2014 20: 50
      +2
      Beggarly salary is yes. But. Himself faced with the fact that young people do not want to work!
      Look on TV. Live now, rest, open summer, etc. It is necessary to change the morality of society. On New Year's Eve, he spat, swore ... These clowns, dancing for big money, shit on me. So I wanted to see the "Blue Light" again, with milkmaids, locksmiths, miners ... With people, and not singing cattle!
      1. atalef
        atalef 16 January 2014 21: 39
        +1
        Quote: invisible
        But. Himself faced with the fact that young people do not want to work!

        This is problem . some are not like that. . They want everything at once.
        1. invisibility
          invisibility 16 January 2014 22: 04
          -2
          No, you know what's the weirdest thing? They don’t know what they want !!! Money? And to the question, why money is no answer! Well, buy a car, well, I’ll go to the Maldives, and then what? Well I do not know..
          I would not like to look pessimistic, I have already been offered a shroud and a cemetery, but you must admit that young people with such "far-reaching goals" are wretchedness!
          1. m262
            m262 17 January 2014 02: 18
            0
            You are a funny man, wretchedness, you consider the young man’s desire to see the world, have a car, eat tasty food, dress well, live in a normal apartment ...
            Then why do you live ???
            From experience, I note: such statements are usually characteristic of people who already have all these benefits, but who want to teach others: you don’t need to say this, this is not the main thing, then go and give up the car and the salary in favor of some orphan, and do not sybrate here about the wretchedness of youth!
            1. invisibility
              invisibility 17 January 2014 20: 13
              -1
              Experience has failed you. Or let’s say so, partially failed. I work for a private trader, in the printing industry. Yes, there is a car, Hyundai Elantra. It remains to pay another year of the loan.
              There is no separate housing, only if with parents. I was abroad once, in Belgium, at work. I didn’t particularly aspire, but I tried beer and spat on everything. I think fishing is the best vacation on the river bank. I love to work. I think that man’s hands are given for creativity, for work. I live for someone to ever say thanks. Still have questions? Am I still funny?
  23. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 16 January 2014 20: 29
    +1
    Russia will be saved only by the State Planning Committee ..and public administration in the main sectors ..! And "oligarchs and managers" should be lowered to the level of cheburek restaurants, auto service, sewing clothes and the like ... otherwise there will be no sense ... they will plunder Russia again (1917-2017 ...)))
  24. pensioner
    pensioner 16 January 2014 20: 35
    0
    Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?
    To be honest, I didn’t read the article ... Yes, nobody SPECIFICALLY should be responsible for ... The system itself is guilty when even the smallest person is told: everything that is beneficial for you is local, kosher, etc. Easy! Have a grandmother. Everything else will follow!
    1. max73
      max73 16 January 2014 22: 01
      +1
      minus for not reading. and there is nothing to blame the system, if they could not inculcate other values ​​to their neighbors
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 16 January 2014 22: 07
        +3
        Of course, thank you for the minus ... Only I at one time (at the time of timelessness ...) prepared so many young animals that I probably still have the right to my own opinion ... And the young animals, I, was taught at one of the elite enterprises of the military-industrial complex ... That's it ... Some of them are now shop managers. And from time to time they remember me ...
  25. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 16 January 2014 20: 39
    -1
    Increase your salary by 2 times and hunger will disappear.
    1. saber
      saber 16 January 2014 21: 02
      +1
      increase and sleep for quality! and then ipat iput, and hell money! they cut off the 13th ... what the hell? instead of 2, it’s now 4 (it’s good, of course, that they buy new equipment)
  26. vvpll
    vvpll 16 January 2014 20: 42
    +4
    Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?

    You do the average salary of a hard worker at the plant 50-60 tr (in the Far East 90 tr) and there will be no personnel starvation.
    And then they write, they write ... lack of succession, a whole generation has dropped out, the percentage of turnover of specialists, some kind of congresses ... My head will swell.
  27. invisibility
    invisibility 16 January 2014 20: 43
    -1
    Another situation with the remuneration of top management. His average monthly salary exceeds two-three times the salary of other workers
    Why so modest?
    Maybe five to six times?
  28. skyil
    skyil 16 January 2014 20: 46
    -1
    What we don’t store, but having lost Crying! -Patriotism-ahh! Salvage taxis, but there’s still clearance, because we deep down in our hearts love Russians our mother Rus.
  29. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 16 January 2014 20: 54
    +2
    Quote: Ivan Tarasov
    Increase your salary by 2 times and hunger will disappear.

    Yes, at least 5 times .. (the printing press works with overheating, just not with us ..) Just notice if pensions are increased by 300 rubles .. (and right there the prices in stores go up many times .. as if by collusion ..) Business however, here it’s not necessary to raise it here just with some cunning ... you have to step on one place and the most important thing for everyone at the same time .. and do not let go like a gas pedal So maybe then we will feel the increase and the sense of the need for our work for the good of the Motherland. . Here so figuratively wanted to express something .. (it is very soft to be honest ..))) angry
  30. DUBOVAY ROCHA
    DUBOVAY ROCHA 16 January 2014 21: 03
    +1
    I am not working for "fame" but for "money" Ivanov, Petrov and others. I also believe. The root of the problem is salary and
    perspective. Why not get into the lawyer of an economist manager why? Because it was and now there is the opportunity to change the flea and get good money. You need to work at the machine plant and before
    learn this. But there is no prospect. Here is the answer.
  31. hawk
    hawk 16 January 2014 21: 27
    +1
    Impromptuly ran through the "problems" - presidents, tops, personnel, education, laws ... Living in this country nearly 60, of which 40 are in the defense industry, I will have the audacity to find the truth. Absolutely everything that, so far, has been called - not causes, but effects. Consequences of the absence in today's Russia of a nationwide unifying idea. Even, more precisely, national CARE. In any normal, non-schizophrenic and drunken family, they will take care of prosperity, well-being, security. All actions, plans and joint efforts will be aimed at ensuring them. Young people should study seriously, and not only at various educational levels, but also from the elders. Those, in turn, strengthen the family financially and morally, and protect the very young. Although "the family has its black sheep," but the chances of moral monsters in such a healthy environment will be extremely small. For a long time, our people did not feel like a big single family. Hence - the first person whom I would like to, but cannot believe - the leaders whom I saw in the grave. And as a result - the COUNTRY is limping on both legs. One of which is the Army, and the other is the military-industrial complex. Patriotism cynically expressed in the Latin alphabet on the Ulyanovsk Land Rovers. Everyone expects to call a panacea for all this, but I don't have it. The main thing in everything is to remain Human, not to be indifferent to anything. Although pretentious, there is no other way. If the first person really wants to run a STRONG country, then everything in it will be built on THIS. Education from kindergartens to Academies. Material interest from techie to minister. Strict accounting is not in billions, but in kopecks. Etc. etc. Can we and, most importantly, do we want change. Or are we just satisfied with the rantings in the "kitchens" and "smoking rooms" of Internet forums?
  32. APASUS
    APASUS 16 January 2014 21: 30
    0
    Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?

    None!!
    We don’t have a law allowing fools to punish! They are our people who are not subject to whatever they do with us, we are building the state from scratch and here we have a total of zero!
  33. wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 16 January 2014 21: 40
    0
    The personnel problem is complex, with the union in the defense industry they took only those who are really special. it was something from itself, therefore they received a salary higher than in the civil industry and in the state. At that time, concern for the workers of the military-industrial complex (in the form of housing and other social security) really manifested itself. People felt this and worked with maximum efficiency (evenings and six days, worked overtime and did not reckon with anything, they should do it this way, they lived by this principle) and felt that they were doing the thing that was necessary for the country. In general, PEOPLE felt themselves, literally (and so it was all over the country).
    When perestroika began and the fruits of their labor were simply put under the press, when nepotism and theft began at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, when they were not paid money for months in the 90s, it was then that a mental revolution occurred in the minds of people that they were subhuman and whose country they gave themselves all up from head to toe, just don't give a damn about it. Because the prestige of working professions fell and the country turned into a huge flea market, where everyone sold what he could so as not to die of hunger. Then people began to advise their children to choose any other path in life, but just not work (because there was no sense in labor).
    And now we have what we have.
    Young people see no reason to work hard on uncles, providing their necessities of life (up to rest on paradise shores with their sluts and geeks), and in return to receive denticles and money that they throw to them like a bone to a dog so that it does not die of hunger. Plus, the attitude is like to slaves.
    So far, there is no shift in the heads of those who own the enterprises that the success of their business depends on a skilled working person, who should be treated accordingly and protected as the apple of his eye (so that he works for him, not for a competitor, or armed and lost in organized crime groups, didn’t go to bomb them themselves, just to survive), until then, we will not see high-tech industries as our ears.
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 16 January 2014 23: 28
      0
      Quote: wanderer_032
      While in the minds of those who own the enterprises there will be no shift that the success of their business

      This is not theirs, and not business
  34. Suhov
    Suhov 16 January 2014 21: 48
    +4
    He recalled the monologue of Gennady Khazanov from Soviet times. It began like this:
    - One simple engineer decided to relax in Sochi. He called the Aeroflot ticket office and an hour later they brought tickets directly to his house. The next day, he flew to Sochi, he was met at the airport by car, he was brought and taken to a luxury hotel without any queue. True, there were no free rooms in the hotel, but someone was urgently moved somewhere, someone was evicted altogether and the engineer was put in an excellent suite. What, I can’t believe it?
    The people in the audience are silent and do not laugh. Khazanov continues:
    - So, I tell you again. One simple engineer from england decided to relax in Sochi ...
    There is a burst of laughter in the hall. Khazanov pretends to be surprised:
    - What? What, the first time I did not say that the engineer is from England? Are you crazy? Have you thought about our engineer? It was him who was just from the hotel and was evicted when the Englishman arrived ..
    Well and further in the same vein.
    How much time has passed, but the attitude towards specialists does not change ... sad
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 16 January 2014 22: 53
      0
      Sukhov !!! Where were you??? Hi dear! hi hi hi
      Quote: Sukhov
      Have you thought about our engineer? It was him who was just from the hotel and was evicted when the Englishman arrived ..
      Here in the 90th year in Stary Oskol in their best hotel in order to settle us, the Yugoslavs were evicted from the suite! yes So dear! Eh ... There were times ...
      1. Suhov
        Suhov 16 January 2014 23: 48
        +1
        Hello Senior Citizen! hi hi hi
        He was absent for some time, there were urgent matters ...

        Quote: retired
        Eh ... There were times ...


        In Soviet times, those who had brains went into science and / or "defense".
        Understates and talkers - in the leaders.
        As a result, these unfortunate leaders and the Union easily surrendered, and the economy was destroyed.
        Stalin was not on them ...
        His methods were certainly somewhat cool, but effective.
        For some - just right.
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 18 January 2014 01: 00
          0
          Quote: Sukhov
          His methods were of course somewhat cool.

          stop No !!! The most harmless
          , as it is now being seen ... I am extremely glad to see you! hi
  35. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 16 January 2014 22: 51
    +2
    Quote: wanderer_032

    So far, there is no shift in the heads of those who own the enterprises that the success of their business depends on a skilled working person, who should be treated accordingly and protected as the apple of his eye (so that he works for him, not for a competitor, or armed and lost in organized crime groups, didn’t go to bomb them themselves, just to survive), until then, we will not see high-tech industries as our ears.

    While we will be driven into business projects, and not provide the opportunity to fulfill our natural mission - to work for the benefit of society and family - all is useless.
    In well-fed Europe, you also cannot find those who want to plow in the defense industry.
    We have poverty, they have satiety. and the result ...
    The root of the problem is that the defense industry must be at the world level or (ours) higher. Only then does it make sense.
    And this does not provide any salaries. People should plow without sparing themselves. This is possible only if there are internal ideals. Only these reasons can explain the success of the USSR in the war against the fascists.
    So until the state ideology changes and the educational process for the purpose of serving the people is restored, nothing will change.
    ... Chinese communists will make both a defense and world politics ...
  36. NKR
    NKR 17 January 2014 00: 41
    0
    Even reading is not the future it is clear who the rebuilders are shit-democratizers. I propose, without trial, as it should be a snout to the wall of lead in the back of the head.
  37. Watchman
    Watchman 17 January 2014 03: 06
    +1
    Yes, and personnel from educational institutions come out such that I don’t even know what specialty they studied! In my group, 80% of people in 5 years didn’t give up anything, in practice they weren’t, they just paid for everything and got diplomas!
  38. tundra
    tundra 17 January 2014 06: 36
    0
    Without qualified personnel this can not be achieved ................... Milling machine 4th category. A mechanic technician, by production, of the same one, at UVZ. And they normally go ..... in one hand the telephone in the other handheld transceiver life was successful ... Brick, if the lights are turned off, they cannot draw in three projections. And the whole country is moooooooooo ...................
  39. fleet
    fleet 17 January 2014 06: 58
    +1
    Pay attention to all comments. It was good under the USSR, it would seem that nothing is simpler - turn everything in the ass and it will be good. But it won’t be so. Because the cadres decide everything. Someone used to be the Chairman of the Council of Ministers - a person who worked in the economy from the bottom who knows and understands the mechanism of the economy, and now that he is a lawyer. Who used to be the Minister of Defense - a military man who graduated from a military school, military academy, who served and knows the life of the army and navy, is an example of Serdyukov. The same is true in other sectors. to weary the bicycle, we need to improve it. But in general we won’t get such a feeling, we won’t start working. The Tatars arrived, Russia united, the Swedes gave Peter1 in the face, he began to pour cannons from bells, before that he did not know that they were made of metal and so on.
  40. demotivator
    demotivator 17 January 2014 07: 31
    +1
    Who is responsible for personnel shortages of the defense industry?

    The question is rhetorical and even secondary. Well, what can we do if even someone answers him? It will become easier, and cadres of competent specialists will immediately appear out of nowhere? Will not appear until the current vicious system of management and training is in place. The forum has already written about the exam, the system of payment and incentives, and our other troubles. Recently, our Ministry of Education and Science admitted that weak applicants go to pedagogical universities, and weak graduates of pedagogical universities go to teachers. I’m not accidental about this - changes in the country should begin with school, with a teacher. But the question immediately arises - what teachers do the Kremlin need and what teachers do those bureaucrats need, whose children study in England ???? So far, we see that, in fact, teachers are needed who can teach Tajik-Uzbek children who are good at learning English.
    The country's pedagogical universities are already focused on preparing crammed teachers who say "salam" instead of "hello"
    And in general, what quality of education and training of schoolchildren can be talked about when children study not here in the upper class of the official nobility - not in Rush, but in England (or the USA) ... but for a simple one, @ la (who still cares about one - Supermarket guards will also fit schools where they barely learn the multiplication table and look for porn @ games on the Internet.
    Yesterday, our chief leader gathered experts on the history of the country and told them parting words:
    new history textbooks for high school should not contain ideological rubbish ...
    This, of course, is good, who needs garbage? But the country is in dire need of specialists and professions that will boost its economy and production. And what kind of cadres are our universities "forging" today? These are mainly "logistic managers, economists, lawyers, sales executives, PR managers" -
    that is, slaves are being prepared for the consumption of goods produced abroad
  41. demotivator
    demotivator 17 January 2014 07: 46
    0
    One "defendant" can be called for sure - this is Chubais! We have not forgotten about the privatization of defense enterprises under the leadership of Chubais and his foreign advisers, among whom were CIA officers. It was they who destroyed the defense industry, and military secrets and technologies leaked abroad. True, as gratitude for the work done, Mr. Chubais received from the president the Order of Merit to the Fatherland, without specifying - to which fatherland?
  42. Alex
    Alex 17 January 2014 08: 06
    0
    I read the comments. For some reason, everyone, including the author, focuses on the material side of this issue. Make a decent salary and everything will be solved. I think that you can’t do it alone. I worked at the military-industrial complex in 80 years. If those who worked know the difficulties faced by employees of such enterprises. These are the highest production culture, the most stringent quality control of products, and various restrictions, including traveling abroad. All this during the Soviet period was compensated by a sound social policy. For example, we have the factory had its own kindergartens and a swimming pool. Its own polyclinic, health center, dispensary, ski and recreation facilities. They built a living space. They had their own dormitories and small families. As a result, staff turnover was minimal. It was possible to get to the factory only by competition, or by acquaintance. Can someone imagine today the situation that it is possible to get a job at a factory by blat? But I think that if some company offered there would be similar conditions now, there wouldn’t be a hang-up from those who wanted to work there.
    1. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 17 January 2014 17: 18
      +1
      Money, money, but I personally wrote about something else.
      About the normal human attitude towards people of working professions.
      About normal working conditions.
      Then there will be returns from them not in today's example.
  43. Oleg 12
    Oleg 12 18 January 2014 14: 07
    0
    I remember over-ts years ago when those who were elected were obliged to show their income. At this time, one director of an ordinary brewery wanted to be elected. Then he made public his earnings. At this time, the average salary at all factories, even industrial ones, was 3000-5000r. This "manager" announced his 320 million rubles. This is what he made public, and what that may not. The same goes for other factories. A small salary is the reason for the decline in the prestige of work in factories. This can be corrected if a law is adopted in which to limit the salary of the management: for example, the head of the department receives 3-5 salary from the average salary of subordinates, the head of the shop 5-8 from the average salary in the shop. Accordingly, standing above them on the same principle. Then these managers will be interested in the normal salary of their subordinates.