Military Review

“Inflatable” defense

133
The complete pathos of the statements of defense officials almost always leave a feeling close to that which occurs when a bubble is bursting, and the movements towards the modernization of the defense complex more resemble a fairy tale about a white bull. True, in our, purely Kazakh, version brought to the highest degree of absurdity.


Ahead of the rest, or Ordinary “Flooding”

As the reader probably understood, we are talking about the activities of the National Company Kazakhstan Engineering JSC, created in 2003 by incorporating defense industry enterprises and military plants of the Ministry of Defense. Being “under the roof” of “Samruk-Kazyna” and under the control of the military department, this strategically important structure, more like a UFO, was repeatedly criticized at the highest level and outright ostracism by experts, which, however, did not make its management think and work in new ways. Sometimes suspicions are born that the main task that the employees of “Kazengineering” set for themselves is to make a smart look, especially when they need to promise with three boxes. The most important task is to make it even more intelligent when you have to explain why nothing came out of the promise. We draw such far-reaching conclusions, based not only on information about the projects for which this national company was taken, but also on the conclusions of specialists.

In May 2011, the then Deputy Minister of Defense Talgat Zhanzhumenov, from the pages of the press, gave the following description of Kazinzhiniring activities: “There is no production of military goods in Kazakhstan with a full technological cycle to meet domestic needs, except for factories producing ammunition, ships, boats and naval armament ... Today, physical and moral depreciation of fixed assets has reached a critical level - from 70 to 80%. Disposal of fixed assets comes at a rate of 1,5-2,5% per year, whereas the annual rate of updating the technological base does not exceed 0,1-0,5% ... Most of the company's enterprises have a production structure and use technologies introduced in the Soviet period and designed to operate in a planned economy . In addition, there is a depreciation of capital in the structure of financial balance sheets of enterprises, which, in turn, determines their low credit and investment attractiveness. In the current state, enterprises of National Company Kazakhstan Engineering JSC can produce competitive products only for relatively narrow market segments. ” However, in the future, the former deputy minister looked rather optimistic, stating that “the strategic development plan of the Republic of Kazakhstan before 2020 provides for state defense orders for 80% domestic production ... At the same time, preference should be given to incomplete import substitution by importing borrowed components and“ simplified "Technologies, and exclusive full-cycle production is desirable on local raw materials ... This problem can be solved through the creation of joint ventures, trans Firth technology to develop its own industrial and scientific base. "

If you believe the reports of the company itself, then it copes with this task on a solid top five. At least, its president, Bolat Smagulov, celebrating the tenth anniversary of “Cazinzhiniring”, stated that “the economic indicators, the production and technical potential of enterprises are steadily increasing,” and he was frankly proud of the success of the structure led by him. And, indeed, a couple of times a year we hear about the creation of the next joint venture for the production of defense products and about the prospects for Kazakhstan to turn into a military power. But for some reason, the generators of ideas, without bringing to mind any of the projects started, clutch at the second, third, fourth, turning the process of the so-called modernization of the defense complex into the most natural conveyor of absurdity. Of course, I would like to believe that Mr. Smagulov actually has reasons for pride, but for some reason they are not visible to outside observers, nor to experts, or military specialists.

In this regard, it is not a sin to recall the sensational Kazakh-Israeli cooperation. Namely, about the Naiza rocket launcher, the tests of which our colleagues described in the following words: “When the dust dropped a little after the jet salvo, the fighting vehicle lay in the field upwards with wheels ...”. Or about the self-propelled mortar “Aibat” and the self-propelled howitzer “Semser”. The media, referring to the opinions of scientists and practitioners, have repeatedly said that, for example, Naiza is unsafe for the crew and combat crew - in some cases the rocket jet will get into the vehicle platform on which the unit is based, and in some cases - in the cabin where people are hiding. And the installation, as it turned out, cannot fire with the declared Smerch and Hurricane missiles, since this could lead to its tilting. In short, when it became clear that with experienced 89 firing, the percentages of these installations failed after several volleys, this did not surprise the knowledgeable people.

“Inflatable” defense


The situation is similar with “Aibat” and “Semser”. At the first after the demonstration firing, the bottom of the crawler tractor casing was deformed. In the second, an overload of the chassis of the car on which the D-30 cannon is mounted is detected, moreover, the howitzer is brought to combat for a time three times the standard. However, in spite of all these “but”, the production of machinery was put on stream at the Petropavlovsk Heavy Engineering Plant - according to technologies developed by the Israelis especially for Kazakhstan. According to data on 2013 year, voiced by Kazinzhiniring employees, the 380 units of Nayza, 560 Aybatov and 160 Semserov are in service with the Kazakh army. The question of whether the indicated defects were corrected remained unanswered.




In pursuit of common sense, or the most important thing is quantity, not quality

No less interesting is the activity of the joint venture Eurocopter Kazakhstan Engineering LLP, which is engaged in the assembly and adaptation of EC-145 helicopters at a plant located near the international airport of Astana. The oddities, if not the confusion, are no less here. First of all, this is the price: if we didn’t “produce” these cars, but simply bought them, they would have been much cheaper. Secondly, there are serious doubts about the suitability of these types of helicopters to our weather and environmental conditions. Initially it was reported that the Kazakh assembly helicopters “can be used for various types of missions - emergency medical care, search and rescue operations, disaster management, transportation of passengers, etc.” Subsequently, this list only included “evacuation of citizens affected by road disasters. " There was no explanation why the Kazakh assembly helicopter was decided to be used in such a narrow context. Yes, they, in fact, were not particularly needed, since by that time the committee of the anti-corruption committee of the NDP “Nur Otan” voiced truly sensational conclusions regarding the “professional suitability” of helicopter models assembled in Kazakhstan. It turned out that they are not recommended to fly in the mountains and vertical flights at ambient temperatures above + 35 оС. In addition, it is impossible to fly in the autumn-winter and spring-winter period due to the lack of an anti-icing system, and because of the small capacity of the fuel tanks, flights with a range of more than 300 km cannot be operated. Another disadvantage is that it is forbidden to operate the helicopter at operational base points where there is no hangar. But helicopters continue to be produced, moreover, the company began to produce military helicopters - an armed version of the EC-145. But what is strange is that the characteristics of the military “turntable” for some reason contradict the characteristics of the base itself. At least, during the presentation last summer, the ability to work in high altitudes and hot climates was called as the unique characteristics of the helicopter ...

I would like to dwell on several superengineering projects of “Cazinzhiniring”, which also give a smell of cheating.

Most recently, in the middle of December, in Astana, a procedure for laying a capsule in honor of the start of the project for the production of armored wheeled vehicles took place. As part of this project, 2015 is planning to build a “technological complex with a capacity of up to 360 armored wheeled vehicles per year using modern robotic equipment to implement the full cycle of such works as cutting and welding of armor liners, on the territory of the Industrial Park of the Free Economic Zone“ Astana - Zhana Kala ” painting and assembling machines, conducting final quality control. ” “Kazinzhiniring” proudly reported that “such a project is planned to be implemented for the first time in Central Asia and will create a high-tech enterprise that can provide regional leadership in the defense and engineering industry, as well as solve a number of tasks set by the President to improve Kazakhstan’s defense capability technologies and know-how, training of Kazakhstani specialists and the creation of additional jobs. All machinery produced at the plant will be manufactured in accordance with international standards, which will allow selling products both within Kazakhstan and beyond its borders. ”

In principle, there are no questions about the cars themselves. Cazinzhiniring intends to cooperate with the Paramount Group from South Africa, which is known for producing masterpieces such as Moroder or Mbombe. Questions arise in a different plane and, in the first place, relate to the voiced enchanting perspectives. It seems that the staff of “Cazinzhiniring” live in their own world, and they are too lazy to move their necks and look around before making loud statements. If they had studied the experience of such cooperation, which Azerbaijan already has and which can hardly be called positive, then, it seems to us, the pathos would be greatly diminished.

Four years ago, Paramount Group announced its intention to export armored personnel carriers, produced jointly with the Ministry of Defense Industry of Azerbaijan, at a computer plant in Baku to the countries of Central Asia and the CIS. “Our production with Azerbaijan has become the object of attention and interest of other countries,” said then the president of Paramount Group Ivor Ichikowitz. - Some countries still can not believe that Azerbaijan can use this technology. I would also like to say that after Azerbaijan we received requests for cooperation. We said that our main partner in the CIS is Azerbaijan. If someone wants to use this technology, let him turn to the Ministry of Defense Industry (Ministry of Defense Industry of Azerbaijan - editor's note). ”

But, most likely, the real picture of co-production is very different from the one painted. Firstly, it is very doubtful that “Cazinzhiniring” would be so proud of the project that would have to be “begged” from the defense department of another state, and, secondly, Azerbaijan, which has similar production on its territory, was one of the first to show interest. ” in the purchase of Kazakhstan-made military equipment, in particular, special armored vehicles, ”as reported on 11 last December by the chairman of the supervisory board of Kazakhstan Engineering Distribution LLP Aibek Barysov. And, sadly, the whole situation seems to be the logical outcome of this kind of cooperation. It is also logical because at the very start of the implementation of a similar project, Azerbaijani experts predicted just such a course of events, speaking about the lack of demand for this product because of the high price component, which actually kills its competitiveness against the background of the corresponding Russian equipment. In addition, the support of the possible expansion of Azerbaijani armored vehicles to the CIS was fired by Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev - he signed a document on the supply within the CSTO of military equipment on preferential terms, which made Russian products even more affordable. Why in “Kazinzhiniring” we are sure that we will manage to maneuver between the pitfalls about which the Azerbaijani ship crashed is incomprehensible and inexplicable. Moreover, the national company has already stranded, and more than once.

In the same series, the conclusion of a memorandum on the establishment of a joint Kazakh-Ukrainian production of BTR-4. This project not only led to another high-profile corruption scandal and arrests, but also unfolded against the background of another Buzz, caused by Ukraine’s supply of this type of weapons to Iraq. Iraqi specialists, taking the goods, found significant flaws in the firing systems, in particular, the failures of the new automatic 30-mm ZTM-1 guns. As they say, no comment. Today, the fate of this joint production is very vague ...

Alas, such “squiggles” are characteristic of almost all projects that the national company relies on. Therefore, it is not surprising that on the part of “Cazinzhiniring” activity seems to be the most natural window dressing. For example, the scientific editor of the magazine “Arms Export” Mikhail Barabanov from the pages of the Russian “Military Industrial Courier” explicitly states: “... in recent years, attempts have been made to reorient Kazakhstan Engineering to the opening of assembly plants from imported components, and such industries are trying to organize form of joint ventures from scratch - on the new technological base. Back in 2005, Kazakhstan-Engineering established with KamAZ, a Russian joint venture, KamAZ-Engineering, a joint venture for assembling KamAZ trucks in Kokshetau at Tynys plant. The joint venture operates with varying success. In 2007, 2500 machines were assembled, but the global financial crisis severely hampered production, and in 2009, only 200 units of equipment were produced, and in 2011, around 900 ... In 2010, Kazakhstan signed a procurement agreement for the European union Eurocopter The Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Emergency Situations of the Republic of 45 medium EU-145 multi-purpose helicopters. For their assembly in Kazakhstan, the Eurocopter Kazakhstan Engineering joint venture was established at the Astana International Airport. The first six rotary-winged aircraft were delivered at the end of 2011 of the year, while it was declared that they were the first helicopters of Kazakhstan assembly. However, it is clear that Eurocopter supplied the machines as complete, and the amount of work with helicopters in Kazakhstan hardly exceeded the standard assembly after transportation. It is reported that in the 2012-2016 years the joint venture will carry out the "large-node assembly" of the remaining 39 helicopters, although the degree of its "large-nodularity" is also in doubt. At KADEX-2012, Kazakhstan-Engineering also concluded agreements on the organization of the assembly of Ukrainian BTR-4 and Russian Tiger armored vehicles (as already mentioned), as well as Turkish Otokar Cobra armored vehicles (most recently on PZTM). The possibility of adjusting the assembly of new Russian armored vehicles “Bear” and cars “Ural” is being considered. In all cases, as can be judged, it is a question of assembling from the supplied vehicle sets with a minimum level of localization ... Obviously, the “production” created in this way in Kazakhstan is largely semi-interactive in nature and, in fact, is rather a cover for direct imports. ”

Unfortunately, this is difficult to refute, and there is nothing to add to it ...
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133 comments
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  1. Christian
    Christian 15 January 2014 07: 55
    +7
    Collaborate with the enemy !? Congratulations! Results on the face !!!
    1. sledgehammer102
      sledgehammer102 15 January 2014 09: 14
      +5
      Quote: Christian
      Collaborate with the enemy !? Congratulations! Results on the face !!!

      yes, cooperation on key issues with anyone other than the Russian Federation has not brought anyone from the BSSSR countries to good
      1. alone
        alone 15 January 2014 19: 27
        0
        Are you sure what you are saying?
  2. Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 07: 57
    +21
    There are very few practical brains in production ... corruption, through instruments such as clannishness and matchmaking, is flourishing ... There are no technicians, only financiers and lawyers ... what can I say .... In general, oh BAY, which is translated, Mlyn shizdets .. .
    1. Deniska
      Deniska 15 January 2014 10: 27
      +2
      And this is very sad ...
    2. Semurg
      Semurg 15 January 2014 14: 31
      +3
      Quote: Scandinavian
      There are very few practical brains in production ... corruption, through instruments such as clannishness and matchmaking, is flourishing ... There are no technicians, only financiers and lawyers ... what can I say .... In general, oh BAY, which is translated, Mlyn shizdets .. .

      In opchem all polymers prosrali. chef mustache gone plaster removed the client leaves. And if, without hysteria, the art systems are modernized, they are mastering the assembly of turntables and the construction of small .art vessels, the issue will soon be resolved by armored personnel carriers. Well, who is trying to warm up his hands in this matter, find themselves in places not so remote and suddenly begin to sing a song about the fight against the bloody regime.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  3. afire
    afire 15 January 2014 07: 58
    +2
    Dumb money laundering, everything else is fiction.
  4. makarov
    makarov 15 January 2014 08: 07
    +3
    judging by the described, cases in Kazakhstan in the defense industry are not just shitty, but hyperhumous
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 15 January 2014 08: 50
      +10
      Quote: makarov
      judging by the described, cases in Kazakhstan in the defense industry are not just shitty, but hyperhumous

      - especially against the background of the fact that immediately after the collapse of the defense industry, Kazakhstan did NOT have it at all as such. There was an assembly of some torpedo units at the zvoda named after. Kirov in Alma-Ata and the production of what parts for large-caliber machine guns at the Metallist plant in Uralsk. That's all. Now, according to SABZH, there is at least THAT TO CRITICAL, there is at least the subject of criticism itself. If you call it
      Quote: makarov
      hypergynous
      then this is your personal assessment. I advise you to contact your defense industry before making harsh assessments. Already where in the 90s there was a normal defense industry, but it became unclear what. It seems to me that there is still a difference between albeit not smooth and fast, but still development and DEGRADATION, and I advise you to SEE it. In any case, thank you for your rating.
      Py.Sy. And the article is biased. We have already thoroughly discussed the same "Semser", examined their performance characteristics. For all my dislike of the Israelis, there still, with the help of them, not the worst unit was developed, even there are noticeable advantages over the same Russian counterparts. New this is not noted in the SABZH. Hence, there is no objectivity either. Output? Yes, Almagul slashed cabbage for a custom article, one of the opponents of "Kazakhstan Engineering" paid generously. For what purpose, it is not clear, but let Almagula at least benefit, at least swell from the heart and buy fashionable clothes for himself, as they say, for good luck.
    2. Alibekulu
      15 January 2014 09: 00
      +9
      Quote: makarov
      judging by the described, cases in Kazakhstan in the defense industry are not just shitty, but hyperhumous
      It's okay. There is a progressive creation of its own military-industrial complex. And those problems that are described in the article are just symptoms of "growing pains". The USSR also had its own "Grokhovsky circus", "Grotte tank" and many others.
      At the initial stage, they are absolutely natural and even in a sense useful (experience).
      In the history of the creation of the Soviet military-industrial complex, there was a similar picture)))
      Quote: Aydar
      aha type, buy our Russian !!

      Initially, Kazakhstan was determined to cooperate with the Russian Federation, which ended in a natural "forcing beads to the Papuans", which led to contracts with Western firms.
      Quote: Aydar
      trying to develop the defense industry, where it doesn’t work, but where the other way around. turntables fly
      The next logical step, after assembling Eurocopters, is to set up production of Swedish Grippens.
      Fortunately, in the near future, there is a need to upgrade the air fleet of the Republic of Kazakhstan in the light fighter class.
      1. ramin_serg
        ramin_serg 15 January 2014 12: 21
        0
        I completely agree

        Russia for whatever you say! Heir to the USSR and tactics are the same

        He was an adviser in 1972 in Syria and Libya. He worked such a story that we understand that now Russia is doing the same.

        For example, in Libya they ordered New Guns and Engines for tanks. And they sent the Whole Suohogruz of the tank Katkov to Pritenzy apologized and sent the Gusenets, and now you are agreeing to purchase one weapon, then something is changed and you can’t prove anything wrong to the Russian side. sides of the force that as I skazal and decided so right, but then they agreed on it so you did not understand correctly
      2. andrey682006
        andrey682006 15 January 2014 13: 52
        +1
        Kazakhstan was originally tuned to cooperation with the Russian Federation, which ended in a natural "vparivanie beads to the Papuans", which turned to contracts with Western firms.

        Excuse me, could you explain and prove this attitude by facts?
        Is it different with Turks, Jews and the EU?
        Maybe you should first study and eliminate your own miscalculations?
        This applies to everyone, including Russia.
    3. Alibekulu
      15 January 2014 09: 00
      +2
      Quote: makarov
      judging by the described, cases in Kazakhstan in the defense industry are not just shitty, but hyperhumous
      It's okay. There is a progressive creation of its own military-industrial complex. And those problems that are described in the article are just symptoms of "growing pains". The USSR also had its own "Grokhovsky circus", "Grotte tank" and many others.
      At the initial stage, they are absolutely natural and even in a sense useful (experience).
      In the history of the creation of the Soviet military-industrial complex, there was a similar picture)))
      Quote: Aydar
      aha type, buy our Russian !!

      Initially, Kazakhstan was determined to cooperate with the Russian Federation, which ended in a natural "forcing beads to the Papuans", which led to contracts with Western firms.
      Quote: Aydar
      trying to develop the defense industry, where it doesn’t work, but where the other way around. turntables fly
      The next logical step, after assembling Eurocopters, is to set up production of Swedish Grippens.
      Fortunately, in the near future, there is a need to upgrade the air fleet of the Republic of Kazakhstan in the light fighter class.
      1. avg
        avg 15 January 2014 12: 32
        +1
        Quote: Alibekulu
        The next logical step, after assembling Eurocopters, is to set up production of Swedish Grippens.

        Right Judging by the success with the helicopter, this is likely to be a carrier-based fighter for the Navy. wink
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Alibekulu
          15 January 2014 14: 50
          +2
          Quote: avg
          Right Judging by the success with the helicopter, this is likely to be a carrier-based fighter for the Navy
          On topvar this topic has already been discussed.
          The most optimal scheme of two is 1) "heavy" but expensive fighter;
          2) "light" inexpensive fighter.
          In the Russian Federation and the Republic of Kazakhstan, these are "Su" and "Migi", but a light fighter must be single-engine ..
          respectively request
          Quote: Zymran
          Gripen is a cool and inexpensive airplane, but for this you need to knock out the same conditions that Brazil knocked out.
          Grippen, a toy is too expensive for Sweden and it needs to be recouped, and therefore if there is a "fat" contract, they will agree to "hurray."
          Sweden in the aircraft industry, like Ukraine in the production of armored vehicles.
          We agree to transfer technology and are ready to build the plant ("yatagan").
          Quote: Zymran
          "Boxers"
          Everything says that there will be. But at the next stage of the development of the military-industrial complex, in the meantime, "train on cats." (BTR-4)
      2. Zymran
        Zymran 15 January 2014 13: 06
        +4
        Quote: Alibekulu
        The next logical step, after assembling Eurocopters, is to set up production of Swedish Grippens.
        Fortunately, in the near future, there is a need to upgrade the air fleet of the Republic of Kazakhstan in the light fighter class.


        I agree. Gripen is a cool and inexpensive airplane, but for this you need to knock out the same conditions that Brazil knocked out.
    4. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 15 January 2014 14: 16
      +3
      The possibility of arranging the assembly of new Russian armored vehicles "Bear" and vehicles "Ural" is being considered. good whoa! "URALS" our ugly, and uncomfortable (traveled on them) but! the machine is reliable, and the "rogue" is still the same! climbs where you can't walk! I also drove on gasoline, eats a liter per kilometer, but works out every calorie honestly ... but it slows down like a dead man, you almost jump out into the head wassat
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 15 January 2014 20: 59
        +5
        Guys, what kind of Flu? Seriously though, all the airborne missiles will need to be changed there. And if Russia shows a zero, the system is friend or foe, etc. And even one-engine - for small countries it has not gone far, but not for us. And extra horses will not hurt. No wonder the General Const. The MiG-29 said: "The use of weapons in any operating mode of the engine." That is, it is not always possible to use a weapon. And if you have crumbs and horses, then ... you understand. I personally have nothing against Grippen. But I like the MiG-35 with AFAR BEETLE. According to the flyers, it will not yield to the F-35. And the glider of the MiG will be enough for ... twelve years - nothing has been done yet (okay, Rafal is somewhere nearby). And then - where are these Grippens to sell?
        Honestly, it’s better to collect the Urals - these just won’t be lost in the economy - tanks (or rather hulls with a cannon) and armored personnel carriers with infantry fighting vehicles at the training ground were only dragged like that. hi
        1. Alibekulu
          16 January 2014 12: 58
          +2
          Quote: Kasym
          Yes, and single-engine - for small countries it hasn’t gone yet, but not for us.
          Hello Agay, is Brazil a small country ?! But they chose the Swedish aircraft, and meanwhile the MIG-35 dropped out already in the first round .. repeat
          Quote: Kasym
          And extra horses will not hurt.
          As far as I understood from the discussions on Topvar, the 2 engine at the 29 / 35 moment is due to a lag in engine building, i.e. if there was a suitable engine, then the MIG-29 would be single-engine.
          Quote: Kasym
          But I like the MiG-35 with the AFAR BEETLE
          A matter of taste, but AFAR BEETLE, if not mistaken, no ?! And then, all tenders in which MIG-35 participated were failed by him. Yes, that’s already there, he wasn’t even adopted by the Russian Air Force.
          About the benefits of a Swede:
          Quote: Nayhas
          can take motorways, an engine with a very high resource, possibility of service in the field. CDL 39 data transmission system, radar with AFS Selex Gallileo Vixen 1000E / Raven ES-05, the widest range of ammunition, hanging sighting containers.
          Exercises were carried out on Grippen, they put him on the freeway, removed the engine, carried out maintenance, put him back and he flew away. When working on air targets, it is better to rely on guidance from the side of the AWACS (or ground-based radar) receiving from him a picture of the air situation (namely, the picture with the CC indicated on it) without giving out its location by the work of the radar. In this regard, Grippen has a huge advantage, the CDL 39 data transfer system allows you to receive data from external sources within a radius of 500km.
          ..
          Quote: Novel 1977
          Why "Grippen" won, the Swedes simply offered a lower price and the main organization of subsequent production in Brazil itself.
          The same Swiss Air Force already in service with the F-18, also after long comparisons, chose the "Grippen".
          Yes, it can be inferior in terms of performance characteristics to larger competitors, but its electronics (avionics, radar) and weapons system are quite at a level that is somewhat superior to our MiG-35.
          For example, it can carry KEPD-150 / 350 TAURUS cruise missiles or Meteor airborne missiles.
          Plus, it has an advanced information exchange system (which allows you to get a tactical advantage in aerial combat) and for example there is a low-altitude flight mode with an envelope around the terrain, which is important for working against enemy air defense. It will have a better radar than the MiG-35, the hanging container is not even discussed.
          For your money - a decent choice.
          1. Alibekulu
            16 January 2014 13: 00
            +1
            Continued:
            Quote: donavi49
            MiG-35 in the form that it was proposed this year did not have AFAR, there is a Zhuk-M radar. No need to confuse the board for a contest in India - actually a flight layout. Moreover, the current MiG-35 = MiG-29M / M2, as Syria will receive for example.
            The new MiG-35 still needs to be CREATED!
            Hindus for the tender really offered a breakthrough device at the level of Gripen-NG or Rafal-NG. However, it was a FLIGHT LAYOUT, not a READY PLANE! Lost in many respects due to the fact that THIS LAYOUT NEEDS TO BE MADE 5-6 YEARS OLD!
            The MIG OKB at the end of the 2012 year of the Russian Air Force proposed the MiG-35 which is an actual copy of the MiG-29M / M2 with an old set of avionics and radar (like on a boat). The Russian Air Force is inclined in favor of redesigning the MiG-29 in SMT, which, if possible, will slightly lose the MiG-35 in the form that it is offered. There is no new aircraft with AFAR and new avionics ready to go on business and there will be no next year 2-3.

            Quote: Kasym
            And then - well, where are these influenza to sell?
            I will give your comment as an answer:
            Quote: Kasym
            Our interest was shown before 90 machines
            The volume in 90 machines is even redundant for the Swedish aircraft factory. For comparison, Brazil put the plant on 36 aircraft, i.e. more than enough of our needs. Then you can sell to Turkmenistan, since we need to update the fleet, then they too. Azerbaijan is the same.
            1. Aydar
              Aydar 16 January 2014 18: 04
              +4
              better Russian instant 35
              1. Kasym
                Kasym 16 January 2014 20: 32
                +1
                MiG-35 - a deep modernization of the MiG-29, only the new avionics (avionics) are needed. AND ALL !!! In close maneuverable combat, he has no equal for 25 years !!! This plane is ahead of its time.
                About the backwardness of motors - this is wrong. Our (advice.) Just at the expense of power and did the west .. In close combat, they go to the climb and all - the western ones are forced to make a "slide" - there is not enough thrust.
                About one or two motors. Put the F-16 against the MiG-29, everything will become clear without ranting. Traction control. MiG-21 try to find out from the flyers how many missiles they dragged. 4 short-range or 2 medium-range missiles. That's it, my friend. Well, we won’t talk about security.
                AFAR ZhUK-E (export) is ready. Work is underway for itself. The VAF wrote that it was almost ready. For experiments, 2 MiG-29s were transferred to the developers in the summer of that year (Phazatron in my opinion).
                Failure at tenders suggests that you must first put yourself into service, and then go on the outside. markets.
                Brazil is stretched along the ocean and has a network of roads on which you can put an emergency car. Do we have such an opportunity?
                All the advantages of Grippen MiG-35 shut up for the belt. So why do we need the worst? We must take the best! We also put a heavy Su-27 on highways. I will tell you: on the Almaty-Taldy-Kurgan highway there are 4 places where planes were planted! This is so for information. The rest that you brought about Grippen is advertising. hi
                1. Alibekulu
                  17 January 2014 09: 55
                  +2
                  [b] Kasym: [/ b] In close maneuverable combat, he has no equal for 25 years !!
                  Good afternoon hi There will be no close combat - "long arm"
                  [b] Kasym: [/ b]only a new avionics (avionics) is needed
                  In this component, Russia / USSR always lost to the West, which determined the advantage of Western aircraft. In general, I think that the Russians have the best "hardware", which must be stuffed with Western minced meat (electronic filling). Examples are the same "Ural" tuned in South Africa, T-72 modernized by the Israelis.
                  In general, I think that both the MiG-35 and the "flu", as well as others, are approximately equal in their capabilities, just each has its own strengths.
                  In the case of "flu", the principal thing for me is the possibility of assembling it here, as Sagat wrote: (localization, assembly, technology transfer).
                  Will we get similar conditions from the Russian Federation? If so, then I am with all arms and legs behind.
                  And the most funny thing for me is that I argue for the Swedes, keeping in mind your own arguments. I, like you, for the vehicle. Convincing the Kazakhs, you argued that, thanks to the TS, we have the opportunity to launch a lot of things that we could not, due to the limited nature of our market. So the RK’s need for 90 light fighters gives RK the opportunity to build such an aircraft factory. And, most importantly, our fellow citizens will work there. Qualified engineers and workers.
                  [b] Kasym: [/ b] Put F-16 against MiG-29 everything will become clear without ranting. All the advantages of Grippen MiG-35 for the belt shut up. So why do we need the worst? We must take the best! Against the PLA, we will still have a MiG-35, or "Grippen" or even an F-22. So why pay more? In view of the above request
                  [b] Kasym: [/ b] Brazil is stretched along the ocean and has a network of roads on which you can put an emergency car. Do we have such an opportunity? Our main aviation units are directed towards the Chinese direction. Since heavy drying was planted, then a light "flu" will certainly be able to. Next I will quote your kamment: [b] Kasym: [/ b] Built about 1300 km. railway and over [b] 2000 km of roads. Under construction highway Zap. China West Europe by Terr. RK about 3500 km. until 2015 year.
                  In general, they argued, while each of us remains in our opinion.
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 17 January 2014 10: 49
                    +2
                    Alibek, I talked with flyers for two years - no locator can detect at a low altitude (example: Sweden held a tender for the purchase of vert. So this is a myth invented in the West after training battles app. and owls. aircraft (moreover, the MiG-29 did not leave anyone a 100% chance, by the way they gave it to their pilots not to engage in close combat, man. battle with him).
                    Indeed, our electronics are worse. But read the news from Phasatron. 400 km (even let it be 350) with PASSIVE mode (no one has managed to achieve this yet) - "Moscow-1" is the next generation from "AVTOBAZA" (see Izvestia website). And on the T-50, as I understand it, AFAR is ready, up to 400 km. Even the F-22 has less, although the EPR is better.
                    My opinion is that Grippen is flawed like a combat aircraft in view of its single-engine power. This is my personal opinion of course.
                    At the expense of roads, you did not understand - I am glad that roads are being built here. A single-engine aircraft, if the engine fails, can only be landed by gliding. But we have a "rectangular" country with only 1-2 roads across and along it. Grippen will not hold out, "it will be necessary to leave the gate." And Brazil is elongated and narrow, so it can reach the road.
                    And against the PLA, I do not agree. There will be developed air defense and aviation - it will be necessary to insert the wick into the Chinese place in one place. In vain you are so, therefore, I want the best fighters to be.
                    So I am Alibek and care about RK. Look at how much car kits will cost on Grippen (certainly not 2 times cheaper than a new one) - max. twenty% . Add now the cost of production and staff training - we won’t get cheaper than new, definitely. If we want to sell, then the Swedes simply will not give you any advantage - they will sell themselves (why should they compete?). And in general, it is a great nonsense to start with military aviation - the market is narrow and specific (competitors will not let you make money)! It is necessary to start with civil aviation, such as the Yak-20 or maize.
                    These our show-offs can cost the people dearly. That is what it is about.
                    Sincerely, Dauren. hi
                2. Andrey Yuryevich
                  Andrey Yuryevich 17 January 2014 15: 11
                  +1
                  my childhood friend served in Taldy-Kurgan after college, those in armament are now retired, but in a couple of weeks they will come to visit me, here I ask again ... and the years are just those ..... and he told me lies will not ... put on everyone bookmarks.
          2. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 17 January 2014 14: 52
            +1
            Are you serious ? Yes, YOU are simply insane ... in modern conditions, such actions are nonsense !!!
          3. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 17 January 2014 15: 04
            +1
            here in many ways I can agree, but when such a frank jamb ... why the hell kind of do you think that one engine is better than two ???
            1. Alibekulu
              17 January 2014 20: 18
              +1
              Quote: Andrey Yurievich
              here in many ways I can agree, but when such a frank jamb ... why the hell kind of do you think that one engine is better than two ???
              When you ask a question, contact by nickname, name, or quote in your comment, otherwise it is unclear who you are contacting at all. And if not for this part: one engine is better than two ??? I would not understand what to me ..
              The answer is .. there was a discussion on one of the topics on "VO", where arguments were made in favor of one engine, and regrets were expressed that there is no such device in service with the RF Air Force. Himself not special, I made these conclusions from what I read, so do not blame me.
              Quote: Andrew Y.
              Are you serious ? Yes, YOU are simply insane ... in modern conditions, such actions are nonsense !!!

              Again you to whom. To Yeryom or Thomas ?! Who is insane? What - such actions are nonsense ??! request
            2. Alibekulu
              17 January 2014 20: 18
              +1
              Quote: Andrey Yurievich
              here in many ways I can agree, but when such a frank jamb ... why the hell kind of do you think that one engine is better than two ???
              When you ask a question, contact by nickname, name, or quote in your comment, otherwise it is unclear who you are contacting at all. And if not for this part: one engine is better than two ??? I would not understand what to me ..
              The answer is .. there was a discussion on one of the topics on "VO", where arguments were made in favor of one engine, and regrets were expressed that there is no such device in service with the RF Air Force. Himself not special, I made these conclusions from what I read, so do not blame me.
              Quote: Andrew Y.
              Are you serious ? Yes, YOU are simply insane ... in modern conditions, such actions are nonsense !!!

              Again you to whom. To Yeryom or Thomas ?! Who is insane? What - such actions are nonsense ??! request
  5. mirag2
    mirag2 15 January 2014 08: 14
    +4
    “There is reason to believe that the failure to fulfill a number of important state defense orders is connected precisely with indirect control of such enterprises by foreign investors that deliberately impede the fulfillment of obligations under state defense orders,” Bastrykin said in an interview with Rossiyskaya Gazeta. "And it is not even known who these investors ultimately are affiliated with - foreign businessmen or foreign intelligence services." - noted the head of the RF IC.
    NR2.ru: http://www.nr2.ru/moskow/479486.html
    From there:
    “I know this for sure, because then I worked in the judiciary, had access to some information. After all, the trouble is not in privatization per se. Probably in some cases it is necessary. The trouble was that the privatizers were often either directly foreigners or the second row of foreigners, ”explains the head of the Investigative Committee.
    NR2.ru: http://www.nr2.ru/moskow/479486.html
    Well, then, it is worth reading, despite the fact that the site is not trustworthy.
  6. demotivator
    demotivator 15 January 2014 08: 22
    +2
    Quote: Christian
    Collaborate with the enemy !? Congratulations! Results on the face !!!

    So we "did more work". NTV recently reported: "There is never too much security: dozens of FBI agents go to Olympic Sochi. The FBI will help the Russian special services to ensure security at the Winter Olympics." I don’t understand in any way - how can agents of the purely internal American intelligence service - the FBI, that is, under the law, which has absolutely no agents outside the borders of America, help in detecting purely Russian characters from the Caucasian bandit underground?
    It’s another matter if, under the guise of FBI agents, employees of a completely different intelligence agency with such agents in Russia come, but they’re unlikely to live like that for the FSB and begin to transfer the FSB to their agents. And what are these American FBI agents without agents? Any monkey can shoot at us and they. Oh yes, they will provide consulting services to Russian colleagues ... Well, just special forces consulting.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 15 January 2014 10: 59
      +2
      Quote: demotivator
      "There is never too much security: dozens of FBI agents go to Olympic Sochi. The FBI will help the Russian special services to ensure security at the Winter Olympics."

      As a rule, at large-scale international events.
      The presence of foreign intelligence services is common. They usually engage in secret security of their representatives and some for interactions with our specialists. In London, ours were too.
      This is a world practice ...
      1. Karabin
        Karabin 15 January 2014 12: 33
        +1
        Quote: Russ69
        In London, ours were too.

        Dozens?
  7. Aydar
    Aydar 15 January 2014 08: 25
    -1
    aha type, buy our Russian !! it is the best. Yes, there is corruption, and where it does not exist, your forces are even finer and the scale was bigger and bigger, especially during the time of your stool. I’m trying to develop the defense industry complex, where it doesn’t work out, but where the other way around. The turntables fly, they release optical devices, we repair our equipment on our own tanks, we manufacture small ships, and we build a dock on the Caspian. Just say that they began to buy your armored vehicles less, and your command yourself didn’t flatter about the BMP 3 and the T-90 tank, and about the chrysanthemum and the machine. and want others to buy now? and where is there no corruption?
    1. PPL
      PPL 15 January 2014 08: 53
      +5
      Aydar KZ
      ... Yes, and Yourselves Your command did not flatter about the BMP 3 and the T-90 tank, and about the chrysanthemum and the assault rifle. and want others to buy now?

      Well what can I say?
      And our "family" is not without its black sheep. lol
      As they said in the advertisement: "Sometimes it is better to chew than to speak ..."
      Now that "... your armored vehicles are being bought less ..."
      Here's an example for you the statement of the representative of the company manufacturer of military vehicles Johan Stein: "... recently, using the experience of the Indian company Mahindra & Mahindra, South Africa decided to transfer their Casspir armored personnel carrier to the Ural platform. The new Casspir Mk 6 cost almost 30% less all the previous analogues. And this despite the fact that the technical characteristics and functional base of the machine have only improved and supplemented. "
  8. Rus_87
    Rus_87 15 January 2014 08: 29
    +6
    We also have enough of our own "Serdyukovs" in Kazakhstan ... unfortunately ...
    1. Deniska
      Deniska 15 January 2014 10: 36
      +1
      Yes, it seems to me that after the collapse of the USSR in the entire CIS, only Serdyukovs remained at the helm. Who is smarter and honest, left of their own accord, and who did not want to learn to "Serdyukovnichat" :))) This is how we have been living for 20 years ...
  9. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik 15 January 2014 09: 00
    0
    Quote: Aydar
    aha type, buy our Russian !! it is the best. Yes, there is corruption, and where it does not exist, your forces are even finer and the scale was bigger and bigger, especially during the time of your stool. I’m trying to develop the defense industry complex, where it doesn’t work out, but where the other way around. The turntables fly, they release optical devices, we repair our equipment on our own tanks, we manufacture small ships, and we build a dock on the Caspian. Just say that they began to buy your armored vehicles less, and your command yourself didn’t flatter about the BMP 3 and the T-90 tank, and about the chrysanthemum and the machine. and want others to buy now? and where is there no corruption?

    Corruption is corruption, and I would not downplay the high potential of Russian weapons! For how much is it in Kazakhstan? True, a lot.
    1. Aydar
      Aydar 15 January 2014 11: 13
      +6
      not Russian, but Soviet weapons, the legacy remains, Russian weapons can be counted on the fingers. S-300ps, PMU-1 (the last from the Russian Federation that is B / U), Mig-29, Mig31, Mig-27, Su-27, Su-25 all this was made in the USSR. Certainly we wanted and want to acquire a large batch of weapons for the Navy. But to appear in RUSSIA there is a restriction on the supply and sale of weapons for Kazakhstan.
      1. Concept1
        Concept1 15 January 2014 12: 03
        -1
        The Russian Empire is the Soviet Union side view ..
        All of our industrial and defense enterprises have Russian roots in Ukraine, which is essentially the same thing!
        For example the plant "Zenith", "Omega", "Metallist", "Gidropribor" these enterprises are located in the city of Uralsk, they were all evacuated here during the Second World War.
        Omega and Metalist are in total decline. Zenith in conjunction with the hydraulic device still picking boats for the Caspian Sea are made of imported components. German MTU engine, American water cannon, someone else’s radar, Russian weapons, LG air conditioners are hanging on the wheelhouse 5 pieces I saw myself. In short, all this info on the Zenit site is in the purchase section! ..
      2. Concept1
        Concept1 15 January 2014 12: 17
        0
        The founders of the Soviet defense industry such as Korolev, Glushko, Tupalev, Sukhoi, Ilyushin were born in the Russian Empire. Lozino-Lozinsky in general Born on December 25, 1909 (according to the new style - January 7, 1910), in the city of Kiev in the family of a pillar nobleman laughing Gleb Lozino-Lozinsky is the Lead Developer of MTKK Buran. etc, if all are listed then this will be a tome and not a comment.
  10. Clegg
    Clegg 15 January 2014 09: 06
    +1
    We must buy Western weapons
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 15 January 2014 09: 25
      +6
      Quote: Clegg
      We must buy Western weapons

      - you need to buy good weapons and try to arrange the release of their weapons. Sorry for the minus, but it happened. I wanted to put a plus for
      Quote: Clegg
      We must buy Western weapons
      , and the finger did not obey and clicked on the minus. It happens. And now the finger does not obey and wants to post another minus, but the site responds with a ban on this action. Therefore, I owe you a debt - I will return it at your next post, regardless of its content smile
      1. Clegg
        Clegg 15 January 2014 09: 31
        +1
        Quote: aksakal
        And now the finger does not obey and wants to post another minus, but the site responds with a ban on this action.

        laughing

        Quote: aksakal
        Therefore, I owe you a debt - I will return it at your next post, regardless of its content

        Do not bother)
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 15 January 2014 14: 24
          +2
          Quote: Clegg
          Do not bother)

          - Of course, thanks, I will do so. -))) But all the same, I categorically disagree with your highly appreciated Western weapon. There are separate instances, but the picture as a whole is not in vain that Russia has the second place in arms exports, this is not an accident. Moreover, even the most active years of the collapse of the 90s could not shake the second place. In some one or several types of weapons, Americans are stronger than Russians, in some - Israelis are ahead of the rest, in some - the French are stronger. But if you evaluate the entire range of armaments in the complex, Russia has a second place not by chance. Well, to be the best in everything and always without interruptions - this has never been possible for anyone.
          1. Zymran
            Zymran 15 January 2014 14: 31
            +1
            The world's best planes and helicopters from the Americans, tanks from Israel, Russia boasts an inexpensive and high-quality rifle (AK) and supersonic anti-ship missiles, which really "have no analogues in the world."
            1. Semurg
              Semurg 15 January 2014 14: 34
              +3
              air defense systems are not bad
              1. Zymran
                Zymran 15 January 2014 14: 40
                +1
                I do not know how effective they will be if the electronic warfare is used.

                http://old.vko.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2006.27.07

                In 1982, there was a complete defeat, and Linebacker-2 http://old.vko.ru/article.asp?pr_sign=archive.2004.19.08
                1. aksakal
                  aksakal 15 January 2014 14: 53
                  +5
                  Quote: Zymran
                  I do not know how effective they will be if the electronic warfare is used.

                  - but there is still no better Russian air defense system. You are comparing the US military aviation and the Russian air defense system, we are comparing the air defense systems (weapons in general) with each other. From this point of view, Russians are out of competition for ANYONE. In terms of missiles - not only in anti-ship missiles, in general, tactical surface-to-surface missiles of the Iskander type, previously the "U point" of the Russians is very good, many Russian artillery and anti-tank systems will also give odds to all other manufacturers in the world. I strongly disagree about Israeli tanks. For its theater of operations, the Merkava is very good, otherwise it sucks. discussed. The Israelis are strong in UAVs, in some types of small arms, in OMS systems, in the seeker systems of a number of missiles, and in the intellectual processing of military and operational information. That's probably all.
                  In the field of aviation, the United States is not stronger than the Russians, however, and the Russians do not surpass the Americans. Americans have stronger onboard intellectual equipment in aircraft and helicopters, Russians have aircraft themselves as such (airframe solutions, etc.), theirs, these devices, the ability to fly in general.
                  1. Zymran
                    Zymran 15 January 2014 15: 06
                    0
                    Quote: aksakal

                    - but it’s better that there are still no Russian air defense systems. You are comparing US military aviation and the Russian air defense system, we are comparing air defense systems (generally armaments) with each other. From this point of view, Russians are beyond competition FOR ANYTHING.


                    Почему нет?

                    Quote: aksakal
                    many Russian artillery and anti-tank systems will also give odds to all other manufacturers in the world.


                    There is nothing better than Javelin, and what do you dislike about Milan, Lahata, Spikes, Ericks?

                    Quote: aksakal
                    in general, tactical ground-to-ground missiles of the Iskander type, earlier - the "U point" the Russians have very good


                    I do not argue, but not bad, it does not mean the best in the world.


                    Quote: aksakal
                    About Israeli tanks - I do not agree categorically. For his TVD, Merkava is very good, everything else sucks. discussed.


                    Yes Yes. Heavy too. Merkava is a wonderful tank, powerful, with excellent armor protection, ensuring maximum crew survival.

                    Quote: aksakal
                    In the field of aviation, the United States is not stronger than the Russians, however, and the Russians do not surpass the Americans.


                    American planes, since the Second World War, were the best in the world and now they remain.
                    1. aksakal
                      aksakal 15 January 2014 16: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Zymran
                      Почему нет?

                      - The strongest western long- and medium-range air defense system, Patriot, is noticeably inferior to even the latest modifications of the S-300, and I am not talking about the S-400 at all. Rarely do politicians allow themselves to scoff at the weapons of their competitors, but Putin, when commenting on the news of the Patriots being deployed on combat duty in Turkey, only grinned - there should be serious grounds for such a mockery. And they are! I do not know. where do you judge, and I served in the USSR in the air defense and fired at our training ground in Sary-Shagan. I assure you - the West has not at all succeeded in this type of air defense systems. Nor did he succeed in short-range air defense systems - the same "shell" again escaped everyone. Do you at least study the materiel, or something, before arguing. The West and Israel of this Zh. Dome somehow somehow compete in the anti-ballistic missile defense systems - the so-called. Missile defense - but this is a completely different type of weapon.
                      Quote: Zymran
                      There is nothing better than Javelin, and what do you dislike about Milan, Lahata, Spikes, Ericks?

                      - why? How did the cornets displease you? On trials in Peru, the Cornets made Israeli Spikes outright in all respects, even the Peruvian Foreign Minister was physically injured there, but the Peruvians did not dare to offend the Jews and did not send them far away, but simply sent a contract - from 100% of the purchases of "spikes" Spikes ", half of the Cornets. And if we compare these systems in terms of price-quality ratio laughing laughing Compare prices and abilities in terms of high cost! I don’t even comment on it at all. Again - learn the materiel!
                      1. aksakal
                        aksakal 15 January 2014 16: 53
                        +1
                        Quote: Zymran
                        I do not argue, but not bad, it does not mean the best in the world.

                        Iskander is the best in its class in the world. It is principally impossible to intercept it, and the accuracy of the hit is as follows ... In short, who the Iskander was set on - no chances at all. That is why the possible deployment of Iskanders on combat duty in Kaliningrad is worse for the Westerners and Poles than a nightmare.
                        Quote: Zymran
                        American planes, since the second world war, were the best in the world and now they remain
                        - are you talking about the F-35? Or about the strangler of the Raptor's own pilots? laughing laughing
                        Again - learn the materiel. laughing Allegation. And I can prove my statement:
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Americans have stronger onboard intellectual equipment in aircraft and helicopters, Russians have aircraft themselves as such (airframe solutions, etc.), theirs, these devices, the ability to fly in general.
                        . I have been reading about this for several years and have consulted and argued with experts for many years. There is such a one - VAF. You to him, if you want to fill your most serious gaps in this field of knowledge.
                      2. Zymran
                        Zymran 16 January 2014 13: 05
                        0
                        Quote: aksakal

                        Iskander is the best in its class in the world. It is principally impossible to intercept it, and the accuracy of the hit is as follows ... In short, who the Iskander was set on - no chances at all.


                        Again, empty chatter in the spirit of "has no analogs in the world."

                        Quote: aksakal
                        - are you talking about the F-35? Or about the strangler of the Raptor's own pilots? laughing laughing
                        Again - learn the materiel. laughing The allegation. And I can prove my statement:


                        About any aircraft, even the F-15 and F-16, which have never been shot down in air battles.

                        Quote: aksakal
                        There is such a one - VAF. You to him, if you want to fill your most serious gaps in this field of knowledge.


                        I like waronline more there is such a specialist as Ben-Yitzhak, a Soviet, and now an Israeli military.
                      3. aksakal
                        aksakal 16 January 2014 14: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: Zymran
                        I like waronline more there is such a specialist as Ben-Yitzhak, a Soviet, and now an Israeli military.

                        - laughing laughing laughing Read on there, but don’t carry this rubbish here! laughing
                  2. Aaron Zawi
                    Aaron Zawi 16 January 2014 01: 45
                    0
                    Quote: aksakal
                    ? On trials in Peru, the Cornets made Israeli Spikes outright in all respects, even the Peruvian Foreign Minister was physically injured there, but the Peruvians did not dare to offend the Jews and did not send them far away, but simply sent a contract - from 100% of the purchases of "spikes" Spikes ", half of the Cornets. And if we compare these systems in terms of price-quality ratio laughing laughing Compare prices and abilities in terms of high cost! I don’t even comment on it at all. Again - learn the materiel!

                    How can a Cornet do Spike if a Cornet doesn't hit the roof? If, unlike Cornet, the same Spike can be redirected after launch to a more priority target.
                  3. Zymran
                    Zymran 16 January 2014 13: 03
                    0
                    Quote: aksakal

                    - The strongest western long and medium-range air defense system "Patriot" is noticeably inferior even to the latest modifications of the S-300


                    How is this known?

                    Quote: aksakal
                    I do not know. where do you judge, and I served in the USSR in air defense and shot at our training ground in Sary-Shagan. I assure you that the West has not succeeded at all in this form of air defense systems.


                    Have you had the opportunity to compare Patriots and C-300? Personally, I judge by the fact that the use of Soviet air defense systems, as a rule, ended in a terrible defeat. War of Exhaustion, Lebanon 1982, Iraq 1991
                2. Rattenfanger
                  Rattenfanger 15 January 2014 21: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: Zymran
                  American planes, since the second world war, were the best in the world and now they remain

                  It is a pity that the American pilots in Korea and Vietnam, apparently, did not know this. It would certainly help them. And so ... In Korea, 3 to 1 in favor of the USSR Air Force (what were you waiting for? To fight Ivan Nikitich is not even "Russian roulette", it's worse.)
                  In Vietnam, they lost more than from the Luftwaffe opposition. If you speak Russian, then liquidated.
                  ZY On a subject: knowing not by hearsay Kazakhstan and the current situation in it, all talk about "dynamic development", including the military-industrial complex, evokes nothing but a smile.
                  1. Zymran
                    Zymran 16 January 2014 13: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Rattenfanger
                    It is a pity that the American pilots in Korea and Vietnam, apparently, did not know this. It would certainly help them. And so ... In Korea, 3 to 1 in favor of the USSR Air Force (what were you waiting for? To fight Ivan Nikitich is not even "Russian roulette", it's worse.)


                    In Korea, both sides overestimated their combat score. According to recent data, the ratio of shot down Sabers to Mig was about the same, with a slight advantage in favor of Sabers.

                    Quote: Rattenfanger
                    In Vietnam, they lost more than from the Luftwaffe opposition. If you speak Russian, then liquidated.


                    The Americans lost 0.4 at 100 sorties, in Korea there were 2 at 100, and from the Luftwaffe counteraction they lost 9.7 for a hundred sorties. So that your conclusion is inappropriate.


                    Quote: Rattenfanger
                    ZY On a subject: knowing not by hearsay Kazakhstan and the current situation in it, all talk about "dynamic development", including the military-industrial complex, evokes nothing but a smile.


                    I agree with this.
                  2. aksakal
                    aksakal 16 January 2014 14: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: Zymran
                    In Korea, both sides overestimated their combat score. According to recent data, the ratio of shot down Sabers to Mig was about the same, with a slight advantage in favor of Sabers.
                    - where did you read it? laughing laughing laughing Do you blame Pokryshkin for postscript and lies? Did your nose grow on such accusations? am
                    Yes, and in Vietnam, post statistics on the confrontation F-4 vs MiG-21, again, will you cut it off? Just a link to the studio right away!

                    Quote: Zymran
                    How is this known?
                    - once again - teach materiel. Real shooting at all ranges with the probability of hitting the target more than 0,9 doesn't tell you anything? Why is Iran insisting only on the S-300? The Chinese offer them their systems this way and that, and they only offer the S-300. It was with the Russians that the South Koreans created the VM-2500 "Antey" based on the S-300, they simply stuffed their electronics there. the rest is the same S-300. Oh yes. South Koreans do not rummage in the ZRV and therefore, out of their stupidity, rejected your beloved "Patriot". The Turks are the same idiots and therefore preferred the Chinese clone of the S-300, although the Americans are offering them this Patriot on the most favorable terms. And the Greeks, too, are half-witted still those who do not give a damn about NATO solidarity. Zimran alone is smart and considers Patriot the pinnacle of air defense laughing Nude Nude. laughing
                  3. Zymran
                    Zymran 16 January 2014 15: 26
                    0
                    Quote: aksakal
                    - where did you read it? laughing laughing laughing Do you blame Pokryshkin for postscript and lies? Did your nose grow on such accusations? am


                    They attributed everything and always. For example, the most productive Soviet pilot in Korea, Yevgeny Pepelyaev, officially had 23 shot down aircraft. However, in an interview with Tepsurkaev and Krylov he said:

                    "Twelve I'm sure. It's 100% sure. If you pull it, then maybe fifteen."

                    And I must say that, in fact, the American side confirmed 11-13 of the planes shot down by Pepeliaev, including at least 8 Sabers. http://aviagal.narod.ru/text/pepel/add.pdf


                    Quote: aksakal
                    Yes, and in Vietnam, post statistics on the confrontation F-4 vs MiG-21, again, will you cut it off? Just a link to the studio right away!


                    http://web.archive.org/web/20071127002310/http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2004/0
                    904vietnam.pdf

                    370 combat losses, 33 shot down by MiGami, 30 air defense systems and 307 anti-aircraft artillery.

                    Quote: aksakal
                    Once again - learn materiel. Does real shooting at all ranges with a probability of hitting a target greater than 0,9 tell you nothing?


                    The firing conditions at the firing ranges are very different from live firing.

                    Quote: aksakal
                    Zimran alone is smart and considers the Patriot the pinnacle of air defenses laughing Nu-Nu. laughing


                    I do not consider either Patriot or C-300, C-400 the peak of air defense. I believe that there is too little data to talk about the superiority of any of these systems. Answers to questions can be given only by combat use.
          2. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 16 January 2014 01: 42
            0
            Quote: aksakal
            . For his TVD, Merkava is very good, everything else sucks. discussed. .

            You are distorting. Where has it been proven that Mk sucks? And most importantly, what?
            1. aksakal
              aksakal 16 January 2014 07: 33
              +1
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              You are distorting. Where has it been proven that Mk sucks? And most importantly, what?

              _ dear, read carefully. For your theater. For mountainous areas with hard rocky cover mainly. And I wrote that the tank is very good for my theater:
              Quote: aksakal
              Merkava is not bad for his theater
              . Can we read? The tank is not suitable for other theater of operations - in this sense it sucks. For marshy or taiga terrain or for the tropics. You only found suitable conditions in Bolivia, and for some reason Bolivia still did not buy them. There are also design flaws - a large mass, there were problems with the dvigl, a wedge-shaped transmission when a projectile hits the tank’s forehead ... Although any other tank has design flaws of this kind. Who taught you to take a quote out of context and then be offended by it? Dear, take offense in another place, and I will quickly load the water.

              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              How can a Cornet do Spike if a Cornet doesn't hit the roof? If, unlike Cornet, the same Spike can be redirected after launch to a more priority target.

              - Who theoretically hits me where? Tell us about the Peruvian trials, because these are real trials, and then we'll see who can or cannot do what in theory. In practice, not only the Peruvian tests - the last large-scale clash with Hezbollah in 2006, when the Merkavas collided with the Kornet - tell those Israeli tankers that Kornet cannot in theory or in theory cannot. Those tankers will quickly explain to you what you will not be able to do with girls in the near future, not in theory, but in practice. And don't forget about the "price-quality" ratio, otherwise you are modestly silent that one "spike" is more expensive than the target in the last modification - a good war laughing
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  • Deniska
    Deniska 15 January 2014 10: 38
    +1
    Buy correctly! And then they will tell you, excuse me, but we cannot sell you "triggers for automatic weapons" and what, where next? What if there is a war ?!
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 15 January 2014 19: 48
      +4
      Aksakal, I support you! soldier ! Gene. the director of the Toyota concern stated that most of the company's profits come from the sale of spare parts. We definitely do not need either Merkava or Leopard - this scrap metal was not enough for us. Our state needs thousands of unpretentious and reliable cars, and not a few dozen, even super without a repair base. In Germany, for example, there are 300 combat-ready units, hence the production of spare hours. in small lots and at "Euro-prices". Yes, and the T-72 was praised ... American test tankers from Aberdeen: "You try to approach it at a distance of 3 km. Shot. Until you get to this, at least all the optics and the external attachment will be demolished with its 4 missiles. 5 km. And keep in mind that to shoot from the Abrams you have to stop to reload (easy target), but he has AZ - he doesn't need it. "
      Air defense and air force are here in one gate according to the criterion of price and quality. Ammunition also plays a big role here. Few people talk about the cost and storage of missiles of various classes. And the rockets under the letter X? Are our fans of Western weapons confident that developed countries will sell analogs to these missiles? And what will be the cost? I want to say that the aviation analogue of the ATGM is equivalent to a small car in price. I generally keep quiet about helicopters - Western ones are only 2 times more expensive in terms of operation, and this is the minimum. the pilot (he tested the Apaches, then was transferred to a special flying squadron, which flew on the Soviet helicopter Mi-24 and tested them for use) was asked: "What helicopter would you take for yourself?" He answered unequivocally: "Mi-24".
      At the training ground (where I served) we called him: "Dust column, put out the light." When the 4th got up in the "carousel" that still picture. Our targets were columns of tanks and other armored vehicles. So you can't see anything from the breaks. And the turntables one after the other. As a timekeeper, I can’t put my marks on a hit. But always EXCELLENT. And I also want to note that the bombs were only carried over. turntables. Then you think if you're going to keep the western turntables in the hangar; then in the winter just roll out and fly. Aha, wait! There, for example, the fuse boxes are not tight !!! And before my very eyes, in the field, they were doing "minor" repairs of the Mi-24 turntable engine.
      Actually, we are in the CSTO and we need to focus on our allies. I would advise our leaders to start producing at least ammunition (the most "popular" ones). The birdie whispered to me that even in units for a maximum of 3 days of fighting of simple cartridges and that's it! And some are generally in short supply (let's keep quiet about this)! And we are already thinking of doing single-engine Grippins. I do not mind, but I see the point more in civil aviation - the market is wider and we need to start with something simpler. hi
      1. Alibekulu
        15 January 2014 20: 41
        +5
        Quote: Kasym
        And we already appear single-engine Influenza we think to do.
        Here we have 2 extremes: "Ur-ra we are with the Russians" and "Go scattered in the forest"))
        You are a direct apologist for everything Russian. I am also in favor, but without fanaticism.
        I am in favor of simply "being friends at home".
        As for the "flupenes", Sweden itself with a population of 9 million can really not be able to collect the RK under a license ?!
        Quote: Kasym
        I'm not against
        You yourself wrote that there is a need to change the "moments" and you are for the MiG-35.
        So what is worse than the Swedish counterpart ?!
        In any case, there is only "+" for serious consideration of the possibility of adopting "grippens" by the Air Force of the Republic of Kazakhstan.
        The scheme will be as follows: as soon as the Russian Federation learns about this, K-well is made an offer "which cannot be refused." belay laughing
        If not, then ...
        Quote: Kasym
        chronize western turntables in the hangar; then in winter just roll out and fly. Yeah, wait!
        It has already been discussed that Russians do not really want to go for joint cooperation - "PURCHASE"
        the firms agree on some kind of localization in the Republic of Kazakhstan. As for the "Mi-24" I agree, but the same Marek wrote that the Milians of the fields are what .. And what are you suggesting, in that case ?! And I think the competition will not hurt.
        According to the hangars - and that’s good, let ours get used to it.
        1. Kasym
          Kasym 15 January 2014 21: 48
          +2
          Hello Alibek! But where does the "apologist for the Russian"? If price-quality is better, then why come up with it? And the quality is at the world level and not lower. We have 4 more of those tanks in reserve, there are enough infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. And everything is Soviet. Well, not in a landfill. It must be a businesslike attitude. The army (from the point of view of the economy) does not bring us (and countries like us) incomes. It is necessary to repair and modernize the existing types of weapons. We have the second military aircraft fleet in the CIS. But it is becoming obsolete and depleting a resource, and so far it has to replace it by purchasing air-conditioned used ones. There is nowhere to go yet. Sorry, but I already wrote about Grippen above. And I don’t remember what I wrote about replacing the moments belay .And here, re-conserve the MiG-21 and, if possible, completely modernize and let the youth fly. Please, ready single motor. This is what I wrote. I just do not understand these costs for influenza. Do we have an enemy at the gate? I repeat from 15-16 aircraft plants in Russia, only 5-6 operate. They don’t have time to do their defense orders - that’s the reason.
          A blackmail laughing Allies are not good.
          Now we have to wait for the purchase of aircraft. And the assembly is necessary, but somehow everything needs to be thought out (you also write about 2 extremes). Start with the civilian sector (the Ka-226 was still given to the 405 plant). And the Western ones, whatever one may say, are expensive and with spare parts, they can make a sawn-off shotgun at any moment.
          1. marshes
            marshes 15 January 2014 21: 58
            +4
            Quote: Kasym
            .And here, mothball the MiG-21

            21 is long gone, the Su-24 resource has been exhausted, 29 need repair and modernization, so for now there are Su-27, MiG-27 and L-39 and MiG-31.
            1. Semurg
              Semurg 15 January 2014 22: 15
              +4
              attack aircraft are needed against the partisans, and fighters and interceptors against our two painful neighbors are not pulled, and there are enough available for Wed Asia.
              1. marshes
                marshes 15 January 2014 22: 35
                +3
                Quote: Semurg
                attack aircraft needed against partisans

                Maybe even turboprops. And ideally, the Su-25. It’s not for nothing that Russia located an air base in Kant.
                1. Semurg
                  Semurg 15 January 2014 22: 49
                  +4
                  Yes, rooks have proven themselves well, but they don’t seem to be producing anymore? The Kant base is the support of the Russian Air Force in Middle Asia, probably the United States will balance its base somewhere nearby?
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 15 January 2014 22: 56
                    +3
                    Quote: Semurg
                    Yes, rooks have proven themselves well, but they don’t seem to be producing anymore?

                    If you believe Vicki then in Ulan Ude, but something has recently been talking about the Yak-130 as a light attack aircraft.
                    L-39 was also used as an attack aircraft.
                    1. Semurg
                      Semurg 15 January 2014 23: 15
                      +3
                      Yak-130 load is not bad, but there is no armor and has not been tested. True, partisans can bomb and can, like Eurocopters without armor are guarded to partisans.
                    2. marshes
                      marshes 15 January 2014 23: 25
                      +3
                      Quote: Semurg
                      like Eurocopters without armor on partisans imprisoned.

                      Eurocopters is another story, tactical transport of special forces, there is a version of the EU-645 T2, a combat version which is planned to be produced with us.
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          3. Kasym
            Kasym 15 January 2014 22: 51
            +4
            Swamp, hello! Yes, Marek told. Then he said that 60 pieces are in the trash. The MiG-21's main problem was the rapid wear of rubber fuel tanks. There once a year they need to be changed. I think you missed the MiG-23. hi
            1. marshes
              marshes 15 January 2014 23: 03
              +1
              Quote: Kasym
              I think you missed the MiG-23.

              Yes, there are few of them, and then UB, for training pilots on the Mig-27.
              With 21, remember how many scandals there were. From Korea, they detained Ruslan at Baku Airport.
              Now 29 are in their place. And so they are, 29, in Shymkent, closer to a possible theater of operations.
              1. Kasym
                Kasym 16 January 2014 19: 49
                +1
                Not just Shymkent. As I understand it, we have different types based together. And 21 whatever you say is good. Yes old of course, but the glider and features are still in demand. Yes, and traction. And so it can be upgraded to 4 generations. The Indians bent F-15 on them. hi
        2. Semurg
          Semurg 15 January 2014 22: 20
          +2
          I think Alibek in the variant with the flu likes the offer of the Swedes to the Brazilians (localization, assembly, technology transfer) which we categorically cannot get from the Russians. True, our market is small and not as attractive as Brazilian and Latin American. It is more pleasant and better to drive a car on foreign cars than it can with frets in the same way, although at the beginning of 90 foreign cars were afraid and said that they were flimsy and not any.
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        4. Alibekulu
          17 January 2014 10: 32
          +2
          Quote: Kasym
          I just do not understand these costs for influenza.
          And, as your opinion is consistent with yours ..
          Quote: Kasym
          Well, if they finish the MiG-35 now, then Kazakhstan is ready to consider purchasing up to 90 cars.
          Quote: Kasym
          A blackmail laughing Allies are not good.
          I agree, as a rule, Moscow does this, if possible: Ukraine shuts off gas, Belarus’s bending with the help of the Kremlin oligarch Karimov. Tajiks are pointedly and ugly thrown out of the country during the scandal with pilots.
          And, in general, it’s faster for them to come up .. And no one has yet repealed the laws of competition. By the way, I will give the following example:
          One of our agricultural ministers asked his Kyrgyz counterpart with a request for the possibility of lowering the price of Kazakhstani fertilizers. Ours began to study options. So, what is interesting is that our producers sold to our peasants an order of magnitude more expensivethan the Kyrgyz am To the question of our minister: What are you doing ?! They answered that our farmers receive subsidies for the purchase of fertilizers, but the Kyrgyz do not. It was decided to allow the purchase of subsidized foreign fertilizers. Schaub ours are not borzoi ..
          Here on "VO" it is constantly said that often the prices for military equipment are many times overstated, with inadequate quality.
          As an example, we will give you the "Ural" so beloved by you
          Casspir Mk 6 based on "Ural" costs 350 dollars, its Russian counterpart Ural VV "000, army Typhoon based on Kamaz 500 million euros.
          With these characteristics, the South African is much better.
          P.S. Why pay more for the worst in quality request
          1. Semurg
            Semurg 17 January 2014 12: 32
            0
            Quote: Alibekulu

            P.S. Why pay more for the worst in quality request

            for the roof and interethnic peace.
            1. Alibekulu
              17 January 2014 19: 55
              +3
              Quote: Semurg
              for the roof and interethnic peace.
              Purchasing C-300, C-400 is enough for their eyes.
              Quote: Kasym
              These our show-offs can cost the people dearly
              What a show off there request
              Now the unique, most favorable for the last 400 - 500 years time for Kazakhstan. Then, in competition with the Ozbeks, Nogais and Moguls, the Kazakhs managed to stake out the father-in-law shanyrak Ak Orda.
              And now it’s as if all the stars for a jerk have converged.
              And China is not yet strong enough to pursue a gunboat policy,
              And Russia is weak and disorganized, that it is ready to go within the framework of the CU, which earlier would not agree. And in the near future, it is unlikely to agree.
              And the Asian neighbors are not competitive in the environment. And the Republic of Kazakhstan has financial capabilities. Well, let's not forget that there is actually a crisis now. And remembering history, there is still a big question whether Stalin would have been able to carry out modernization so successfully if the "Great Depression" had not been raging in the West ??! what
              Now it is sometimes funny to read about some innovative "breakthrough" projects, such as mills, pasta factories, etc. and in this style.
              And the production of aircraft, without any equivalents, is a "breakthrough project". Especially when you still have to update the aircraft fleet. And the Swedes, who actually have no choice, will accept the contract on our terms. After all, they do not have crazy petrodollars.
              Quote: Kasym
              Look at how much car kits will cost on Grippen (certainly not 2 times cheaper than a new one) - max. 20%. Add now the cost of production and staff training - we won’t get cheaper than new, definitely. If we want to sell, then the Swedes simply will not give you any advantage - they will sell themselves (why should they compete?).
              Kazakhstan can currently afford it. You forget that we get engineers and workers who have been tested in high-tech production. And experience, experience.
              And are you not ready to buy this or that product, which is not much more expensive, but produced in Kazakhstan, by Kazakhstani engineers, workers who will receive salaries, pay taxes, support their families, and spend what they earn in our country. Then, you can agree with the Swedes that they would spend part of the contractual funds in our country (reinvested).
              The mental effect is also important - "We produce airplanes"
              With regard to Russians, the educational moment - it will be shown that cooperation must be taken to a new level. A case in point is the situation around Baikonur, when the Republic of Kazakhstan managed to insist on its own conditions.
              R.S .: I, unlike Zymran, Semurg, Esenger for the vehicle, since how long can this favorable time last, 20-30-40 years ?!
              And being in a vehicle will allow us to "build up muscles" in many areas, which can make us truly independent.
              Here is an opinion, Internet hamster lol
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 17 January 2014 20: 26
                0
                Refinement by vehicle. this is a fait accompli and one needs to live with it, the way out is more expensive than the entrance, I am against further integration with national authorities and their priority over national legislation and national government. And in these supranational bodies there will be Russian dominance, although for starters they may show equal rights, but then they will play their own all the same. I agree on the flu, but the rearmament of the Air Force is a political issue and there will be a tough confrontation with the Russian leadership and the NAS will not do it (helicopters are in the same class where there are no Russian analogues and military aircraft are completely different).
                1. Zymran
                  Zymran 17 January 2014 20: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: Semurg
                  I agree on the flu, but the rearmament of the Air Force is a political issue and a tough confrontation with the Russian leadership will go here and the NAS will not do it (helicopters are in the same class where there are no Russian analogues and military aircraft are completely different).



                  Why do you think LN is so afraid of Putin?
                  1. Semurg
                    Semurg 17 January 2014 21: 02
                    +2
                    I think there are several reasons. Personal is probably a promise of a roof from the color revolutions, well, maybe there are skeletons from the cabinet of the National Academy of Sciences, in the bowels of the KGB there is probably something for all former party and Soviet leaders (for example, his role and actions on the yellow metal or even worse). as an example, Ukraine whose hands are twisted or the Russian question. In general, this is all guesswork, and he knows the reasons.
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                  3. Zymran
                    Zymran 17 January 2014 21: 21
                    +1
                    Yes, I also think that there is some compromising evidence on him, or he simply does not understand what he is doing.
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                3. Alibekulu
                  17 January 2014 21: 37
                  +2
                  Quote: Zymran
                  Why do you think LN is so afraid of Putin?

                  I do not believe that NAS is afraid of this boy ..
                  Quote: Semurg
                  but the rearmament of the Air Force is a political issue and a tough confrontation with the Russian leadership and the NAS will not do it
                  Again, Russia is now lost, with rare exceptions, dominance in the post-Soviet space, which is extremely painful for them. Baltic States, Caucasus, Middle Asia. Kyrgyzstan and Tojikiston, Armenia are bagless suitcases. More hassle than dividends. Belarus on the donation. In / in Ukraine Pyrrhic victory. And in this situation Kazakhstan is too valuable (yes wink ) an asset to take risks ..
                  To disavow, again you can buy several C-300 divisions.
                  There should be an equivalent exchange for giving up "grippins". Those. some serious production from the Russian Federation. Yakov, Tushek or Superjet aircraft plant.
                  Something very serious.
                4. Zymran
                  Zymran 17 January 2014 21: 52
                  +2
                  Quote: Alibekulu
                  I do not believe that NAS is afraid of this boy ..


                  Then how to explain the resigned surrender of all state interests by the Great Integrator in favor of the Russian Federation? Even the Old Man, who could shut off the gas, was fluttering and still knocked out some preferences, chopped off 15 yards and a discount on gas. We are not dependent on Russian energy sources and ourselves supply them with Karachaganak gas, but nevertheless, LN is afraid of dying towards the Russian Federation.
                  Why so? Or to him personally Putin has made such an offer that he cannot refuse, or is afraid.

                  Quote: Alibekulu
                  And in this situation, Kazakhstan is too valuable (yes wink) asset to take risks ..


                  It’s absolutely true, and again the question is: why do not ours use all the trump cards to put pressure on the Russian Federation? The answer is in my previous cue. I do not see another option.

                  Quote: Alibekulu
                  There should be an equivalent exchange for giving up "grippins". Those. some serious production from the Russian Federation. Yakov, Tushek or Superjet aircraft plant.
                  Something very serious.


                  AvtoTAZ plant do not want? Plus a recycling fee against our machines, plus non-tariff restrictions on the import of our products. Plus, the refusal to comply with the agreements within the CU, and consequently the subsequent disregard for our interests in the EEC.
                5. Alibekulu
                  17 January 2014 22: 05
                  +2
                  Quote: Zymran
                  AvtoTAZ plant do not want
                  Duc is already laughing And not one.
                  Quote: Zymran
                  Even the Old Man, who could shut off the gas, was fluttering and still knocked out some preferences for himself,
                  So let him win back on the “grippens”.
                  Quote: Zymran
                  Why so?
                  Maybe this is a multi-way, but we can’t know everything ..
                  Ah, he is "cunning ctsuko" bully
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                7. Alibekulu
                  18 January 2014 16: 40
                  +2
                  Quote: Semurg
                  At the expense of the boy are you in vain, Putin is a mature husband (Karasakal)
                  "Pope" is like a product in the Soviet bureaucratic (Byzantine) nomenclature, which is a certain "quality mark".
                  Not without reason, M.S. Gorbachev. Therefore, everything slowed down with his transfer to Moscow. Kunaev’s example, I think, was seriously alerted.
                  Quote: Zymran
                  Either Putin personally made him such an offer that he cannot refuse, or he is afraid.
                  Let’s try to analyze, taking into account the focus of 2 personalities - ANAS and GDP. It is necessary to take into account that something is common to both.
                  Let us recall that the rise of "Tsar Vladimir" began with Sobchak. Once upon a time, he was betrayed by all his entourage, except for Putin. Moreover, Putin then went nowhere. And when the question of the inevitable withdrawal and the consequences of this arose sharply before Yeltsin. And, if we remember that then they openly said that Yeltsin and his family would get theirs, for all the good that they did.
                  And then B.N. and drew attention to Volodka, who, in word and deed, proved that he was complying with his obligations.
                  Accordingly, L.N. understands that everything will be over soon, and it is quite possible that guarantees for Nazarbayev's "family" have been discussed with Moscow ..
                  And, the fact that family ties are important for Elbasy is said by the ugly situation with Rakhat. And he is no less, if not more, responsible in those outrages that he committed ..
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              2. Semurg
                Semurg 17 January 2014 22: 06
                +2
                At the expense of the boy, it’s you in vain, Putin’s mature husband (Karasakal) who set himself the goal and the great Russia going towards her, and if the National Academy of Sciences will interfere with this, he is mortal (I was very impressed with the Kazatomprom example). The Air Force is a whole chain of bombs, missiles, radars, identification systems, spare parts, etc. .itp and they will not let anyone else in there (flu). So these are our dreams of our own production of military aircraft.
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    3. Zymran
      Zymran 17 January 2014 14: 39
      +3
      Just Kasym is a senior man, I don’t know how old you are, but I think he’s older than both of us. And consequently, from childhood, it was hammered into it that Soviet and then Russian weapons are the best in the world, the most advanced and have no analogues at all.
      And the fact that in almost all real conflicts, Western weapons were head and shoulders superior to Soviet ones simply does not fit into the picture of the world of scoops.
      Scoop is not an insult.
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  • Zymran
    Zymran 16 January 2014 13: 13
    +1
    Quote: Kasym
    Yes, and the T-72 was praised ... American test tankers from Aberdeen: "You try to approach it at a distance of 3 km. Shot. Until you get to this, at least all the optics and the external attachment will be demolished with its 4 missiles. 5 km. And keep in mind that to shoot from the Abrams you have to stop to reload (easy target), but he has AZ - he doesn't need it. "


    Yeah, that's why the battles of the T-72 against the Abrams ended in a terrible defeat, moreover, there were cases when the T-72 could almost hit the Abrams at close range. Yes, you yourself have probably watched tank biathlon and appreciated the "accuracy" of the best crews.
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 16 January 2014 19: 43
      +3
      Abrams vs. T-72: 2 defense systems against 4 possible (armor, ActZash, DZ, Blind). 125 mm. against 120mm. . The presence of missiles gives 5km against 3km killer range. Automatic loader against a black man. 3 pax versus 4 makes it possible to reduce the weight of the tank. Well, the size.
      I do not need comfort for 15 minutes. battlefield. That is how much time a tank takes in battle.
      The rest is advertising. In Iraq, until the aircraft (which basically destroyed the tanks of Iraq) did not process the tanks, they did not go. Where is at least one duel between them shown? So where is the advantage of Abrams?
  • redcod
    redcod 15 January 2014 09: 26
    +7
    I think that the decision to manufacture Western weapons was not made from a good life. Most likely, negotiations with the Russian Federation on the establishment of production of military equipment were, but did not lead to a positive result. It can be seen that the northern brothers do not want to share their technologies, offering finished goods and services that fly into the penny.
    1. Deniska
      Deniska 15 January 2014 10: 40
      +1
      I think this is logical ... No matter how now we are PARTNERS, not "Northern brothers". This is not the USSR !!!
    2. Aydar
      Aydar 15 January 2014 11: 17
      +4
      absolutely true, they wanted to collect the Mi-8,17,171 family helicopters in Almaty together by Russia, and some armored vehicles and artillery, salary fire systems, but they still turned out to be there. not to sit back now? that’s how Eurocopters, Turkish armored vehicles, communication systems, and much more can get out.
    3. aksakal
      aksakal 15 January 2014 14: 41
      +5
      Quote: redcod
      I think that the decision to manufacture Western weapons was not made from a good life. Most likely, negotiations with the Russian Federation on the establishment of production of military equipment were, but did not lead to a positive result. It can be seen that the northern brothers do not want to share their technologies, offering finished goods and services that fly into the penny

      - so even if the Belarusians, the same Slavs, represented by their Fathers and weapons manufacturers like the Baranovichi air-raid association and the manufacturer of the chassis for the Iskander, complain about the Russians, then what about the Kazakhs? Why bother with them? Grandmas in the morning - goods in the evening, technologies are not for sale! Co-production is non-negotiable - it's just not planned! Because nobody canceled the competition. But the fear of competition is more terrible than competition itself - competition is an incentive, and the fear of competition makes you kill a competitor not even in the bud, but even at the stage of inception of the idea of ​​creating a competitor. The market remains monopoly or lacking in competition, and this is bad from all sides. Have already passed. It is not in vain that the Russians swear at Poghosyan - the Sukhoi monopoly in Russia may have a bad effect on the Russian military aircraft industry.
      Putin was overly keen on playing geopolitical chess, and in the homeland there is no good prime minister to restore basic order in the economy. Well, do not consider Medvedev as prime minister - the child already knows that Medvedev is not just not prime minister, he is simply none, just empty ambitions.
  • s1н7т
    s1н7т 15 January 2014 09: 26
    +1
    Hmm. For some reason I was not surprised. In states whose creation is based on a destructive factor, one can not expect otherwise - the same applies to the Russian Federation. A fierce struggle for power, incredible corruption, shameless kickbacks - the same picture in all republics.
  • Altona
    Altona 15 January 2014 09: 32
    +2
    Quote: Clegg
    We must buy Western weapons

    --------------------------
    Isn't Chinese easier? I'm serious ... Just the cost of ammunition for Western weapons and generally its purchase, maintenance and all costs associated with the operation ... Or is China a hypothetical adversary with all the consequences?
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 15 January 2014 14: 15
      +2
      Weapons from China I think this is a question for the next 5-10 years. The state, as I understood, all the neighbors are "hypothetical opponents", here probably the "scientist" who wrote that our headquarters have ready-made plans in case of a war with Russia, probably also have such plans for China.
      1. marshes
        marshes 15 January 2014 14: 33
        +3
        Chinese combat module on the BTR-80 of the Kazakhstan army.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 15 January 2014 14: 39
          +3
          Thanks Swamps turns out to be already there.
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      2. Clegg
        Clegg 15 January 2014 14: 47
        +3
        Quote: Semurg
        here the "scientist" who wrote that in our headquarters there are ready-made plans in case of war with Russia will probably be written soon

        I don’t know if there is or not, but for me there should be such a plan. otherwise they are sitting there in headquarters?
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  • ramin_serg
    ramin_serg 15 January 2014 09: 33
    +2
    Kazakhstan must develop its defense industry like any country. There are guarantees that Russia or any other country will not change the terms of sale tomorrow or will cease to sell at all.

    We have already encountered this.

    Y For example, for 10 years we can’t agree on the purchase of Su 27 and Su 35. DO NOT SELL ALL. and when we try to negotiate with other AH WAY, the traitors look to the west and still impose us on dishonesty.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 15 January 2014 11: 16
      +2
      Quote: ramin_serg
      Kazakhstan must develop its defense industry like any country.

      Neither Kazakhstan, nor most countries of the world, including Azerbaijan, to produce the entire line of military equipment, is really simple. Especially the countries of the former USSR, on the territory of which there were no large enterprises of the military-industrial complex. Today, the development of new equipment and its production is a very expensive task. Therefore, it is more profitable and easier to buy licenses, cooperate with partner countries, and carry out partial modernization.
      But trying to jump above your head is not worth it.
      1. ramin_serg
        ramin_serg 15 January 2014 12: 26
        +2
        Quote: Russ69
        Quote: ramin_serg
        Kazakhstan must develop its defense industry like any country.

        Neither Kazakhstan, nor most countries of the world, including Azerbaijan, to produce the entire line of military equipment, is really simple. Especially the countries of the former USSR, on the territory of which there were no large enterprises of the military-industrial complex. Today, the development of new equipment and its production is a very expensive task. Therefore, it is more profitable and easier to buy licenses, cooperate with partner countries, and carry out partial modernization.
        But trying to jump above your head is not worth it.


        And what Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan are doing and is buying some types of weapons so far but they are buying some with the prospect of launching
        for example, Azerbaijan already produces under license Matadors, AKA, UAVs, missiles, shells, I am sure that Kazakhs will also not stop on the release of artillery systems and mortars
    2. Aydar
      Aydar 15 January 2014 11: 21
      +4
      Dear Kazakhstan, dear to the similar situation, Russia does not sell and will not sell the S-400, Su-35 systems, only the Mig-35, or rather, the Mig-29m2 sucks in, and instead of the Su-35, sucks in the Su-27cm3, and then in small batches with understated resource. but this year it is expected to update the attack aircraft fleet, we'll see.
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 15 January 2014 20: 24
        +2
        Hello dear Aydar! It seems to me that Russia is more likely not to be able to sell something of novia to us now. They have all the power loaded. Judging from the logic of events in the aircraft industry in the Russian Federation. Yes, and I would not be in a hurry at the moment - let the Russian Air Force get on the wing, work out the entire production chain, restore cooperation between enterprises, machines will go in batches. I think it makes sense to wait for the T-50, to take the most advanced ones. MiG-35 series with a BEETLE. In the meantime, to push, repair and upgrade the purchase of used air conditioning.
        I think we are the first on the S-400, because Belarusians without grandmas. But when the Russian Federation itself upgrades its air defense to new systems. And now it is not needed, this S-400. Let the Russian Federation break in at home, because it is new.
        A stormtroopers delight fellow . Do not tell me how much? Yours faithfully hi
        1. Aydar
          Aydar 16 January 2014 18: 14
          +2
          in general, until 2020 fighter and attack aircraft will be updated, in Taldyk they plan to place a pack fa. most likely they will buy airplanes in Russia, there is an agreement on a single air defense system with Russia, which means air defense systems and aviation must be from Russia.
  • 1304
    1304 15 January 2014 09: 36
    +3
    The main thing in the Argentinean scenario is not to run into.
    So if the west is only a complete cycle.
    1. Aydar
      Aydar 15 January 2014 11: 22
      +1
      I agree, we will see
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 09: 37
    +1
    Quote: c1n7
    Hmm. For some reason I was not surprised. In states whose creation is based on a destructive factor, one can not expect otherwise - the same applies to the Russian Federation. A fierce struggle for power, incredible corruption, shameless kickbacks - the same picture in all republics.

    The bardomaga comes out the same for everyone, everyone thinks of himself as a brain, although he is a nut in a huge mechanism. Only clannishness is still in addition. It irritates sometimes very much.
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 09: 52
    +2
    Quote: ramin_serg


    Y For example, for 10 years we can’t agree on the purchase of Su 27 and Su 35. DO NOT SELL ALL. and when we try to negotiate with other AH WAY, the traitors look to the west and still impose us on dishonesty.


    It’s a sin to complain, last summer, we bought so much new equipment from Russia. Muscles in front of Yerevan wassat
    1. ramin_serg
      ramin_serg 15 January 2014 12: 29
      +1
      We don’t want to buy more, but you don’t lose it, but when you buy from others you’re offended
      As for the muskols, answer yourself with so much armament and buying even more. + Improving combat training and command and control of troops is it just that?
  • ed65b
    ed65b 15 January 2014 10: 44
    0
    I agree with Ruslan. Our "generals" and "effective managers" have mastered stealing and washing money perfectly. and if there is still a "political roof", then this is generally a fairy tale. Under Serdyukov, how many copies were broken over wheeled tanks and "Rysya". Thank God they changed their minds and Rogozin did his job. Which is what I wish for you. Maybe NAS will get tired of all this and he will take a radical decision.
  • JonnyT
    JonnyT 15 January 2014 11: 00
    0
    let the goat into the garden, that's the result
  • Concept1
    Concept1 15 January 2014 11: 07
    +2


    That's where the enchanting dough cut !!! Ukrainian program "Background"
    The wrong country was called Ganduras !!! yes
  • Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 15 January 2014 11: 35
    +2
    The military court of Kazakhstan issued a sentence in a high-profile case on bribery by employees of Ukrspetsexport, the Ukrainian intermediary in the field of export of military products and services, of senior generals of the Ministry of Defense of the republic. It is reported by Tengrinews.kz.
    According to the verdict, the former head of the main arms department, Major General Almaz Asenov, who was accused of taking bribes from Ukrainian experts, was sentenced to 11 years in prison with confiscation of property. He will serve his sentence in a maximum security colony. Asenov will also be stripped of his military rank.
    Ukrspetsexport employees detained in Kazakhstan, Alexander Shkolyarenko and Alexander Khrulev, were sentenced to six years in a maximum security penal colony with confiscation of property.
    Local media later claimed that the Ukrainians were accused of giving bribes to the Kazakh military because they “accepted the repaired AN-72 without complaints”, one of which subsequently crashed. We are talking about a plane of the border service of Kazakhstan that crashed on December 25 2012 of the year near Shymkent. Seven crew members, 19 border guards, including the acting head of the border service, Turganbek Stambekov, became victims of the disaster.
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/07/24/court
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 11: 40
    +1
    Quote: concept1
    That's where the enchanting dough cut !!! Ukrainian program "Background"
    The wrong country was called Ganduras !!! yes

    Russia’s only at hand, the red button on the striped can stick at a crucial moment, from the fact that for a long time it was simply not smeared with Vaseline ...
  • AVV
    AVV 15 January 2014 11: 40
    0
    Quote: Scandinavian
    There are very few practical brains in production ... corruption, through instruments such as clannishness and matchmaking, is flourishing ... There are no technicians, only financiers and lawyers ... what can I say .... In general, oh BAY, which is translated, Mlyn shizdets .. .

    And what about the customs union that they don’t want to work, then the corruption component will disappear !!! And the local princes are not used to living on one salary !!! Here Ukraine patches its APCs 4 from Iraq and offers Kazakhstan to buy !!! This is where the field for corruption is !
    1. Roman 1977
      Roman 1977 15 January 2014 11: 59
      -3
      Dear Vlad.World, another epic with Kazakh BTR-4 awaits us. Moreover, at the defense exhibition KADEX-2012 on May 3, 2012, the Ukrainian state company Ukroboronprom and the Kazakh state company Kazakhstan Engineering signed an agreement on the joint production of the BTR-4 armored personnel carrier for the armed forces of Kazakhstan. This was reported by the press service of the Ukrainian enterprise. "At the end of 2011, we signed an agreement on joint activities in the field of repairing heavy armored vehicles at the facilities of the Semey Engineering company [the former 811th Semipalatinsk Armored Repair Plant]. Today we moved to a higher level - the production of the latest Ukrainian development - BTR- 4 ", - said the general director of Ukroboronprom Dmitry Peregudov. "A total of 100 cars will be produced: 10 of them this year, and 90 next year. The total amount of the agreement is about $ 150 million," he added.
      http://republic.com.ua/article/25206-Kazahstan-pokupaet-BTR-4-na-150-mlndoll.htm

      l


      True, Kazakhs, like smart people, are also buying normal equipment. So in April 2012 of the year, Rosoboronexport signed a contract with the Kazakh company Kakhspetsexport to supply 90 new armored personnel carriers BTR-82. As previously reported by the Director General of the Military-Industrial Company Dmitry Galkin, 2011 armored personnel carriers BTR-BTR-30 were delivered in 82 in the year of Kazakhstan. , and in 2012 the year will be delivered - 70.
      A source:
      http://censor.net.ua/f612340

      1. Zymran
        Zymran 15 January 2014 12: 13
        +2
        The normal technique is the German "Boxers", but they are either not affordable or you can't drink money with the Germans.
        1. Concept1
          Concept1 15 January 2014 12: 27
          +2
          Russia has a good tradition of taking Berlin and other European capital once every hundred years, gouging all their super duper. smile
          1. Zymran
            Zymran 15 January 2014 13: 04
            +3
            This is an indicator of the valor of the Russian army, but not the backwardness of European technology.
            1. Concept1
              Concept1 15 January 2014 14: 00
              0
              This is an indicator that, in addition to valor in Russia, the best weapons in the world. After all, you can’t trample on tanks with a bare ass! hi
              1. Zymran
                Zymran 15 January 2014 14: 12
                +4
                Intercession never brought anyone to good.
                1. Concept1
                  Concept1 15 January 2014 14: 37
                  +1
                  This is not strangeness. Because in the RF there is a tremendous work to restore the military-industrial complex 30-40% increase in production per year.
                  And Urashcheniya is just criticized in this article that we are discussing here.
                  1. Zymran
                    Zymran 15 January 2014 14: 40
                    +2
                    That's when they will restore then and we will discuss.
                    1. Concept1
                      Concept1 15 January 2014 15: 11
                      +2
                      Interesting info.

                      Since 2010, the supply of military equipment from Russia to Kazakhstan has grown 70 times

                      Despite the fact that Astana pursues a multi-vector foreign policy, Russia remains a priority partner of Kazakhstan in the field of military-technical cooperation, the volume of which has increased many times in recent years.

                      “Over the past two years alone, Rosoboronexport has supplied Kazakhstan with BTR-82A armored personnel carriers, BMPT fire support combat vehicles, which they nicknamed Terminator for their power and efficiency, and TOS-1A heavy flamethrower systems. It's hard to believe, but the supply of military products has increased 2010 times compared to 70, ”said Topoev. He noted that an important area of ​​military-technical cooperation with Kazakhstan is the modernization of previously delivered to this country weapons and military equipment of Soviet (Russian) production.

                      “Modernization is the most economically attractive and fastest way to bring the equipment purchased several years ago to the level of modern designs that meet the most demanding requirements. Take, for example, the repair and modernization of the T-72 tank. “Rosoboronexport” offers its comprehensive modernization according to the proven methodology, which takes into account not only Russian, but also foreign experience in operating and participating in hostilities, ”said Topoev.

                      He noted that only Russian technical solutions can provide the highest level of these works. “At the same time, repairs and modernization can be carried out at specially created joint repair enterprises (service centers) in Kazakhstan,” said Topoev. According to him, Rosoboronexport is ready to implement a program for the comprehensive modernization of the BMP-2M infantry fighting vehicle. It involves, in particular, equipping the control system with a modern multi-channel gunner’s sight, a new weapon stabilizer and a ballistic computer with sensors for firing conditions.

                      “The implemented technical and constructive solutions will raise the combat effectiveness of the BMP-2M to a new level, and will expand the combat capabilities of the vehicle during operations in conditions of poor visibility. Considering that BMP-2 are in service with many armies in the region, the work on their modernization seems effective and beneficial for foreign customers, ”said Topoev.
                      1. Zymran
                        Zymran 15 January 2014 15: 18
                        0
                        Quote: concept1

                        “Over the past two years alone, Rosoboronexport has supplied Kazakhstan with BTR-82A armored personnel carriers, BMPT fire support combat vehicles, which they called the Terminator for their power and efficiency, and TOS-1A heavy flamethrower systems.


                        BTR-82 is a coffin on wheels, BMPTs themselves, the Russian military themselves do not really know how to use and why they are needed at all. Here is TOS-1A powerful weapon I do not argue.
                      2. Concept1
                        Concept1 15 January 2014 15: 35
                        0
                        BMPTs themselves the Russian military does not really know how to use and why they are needed at all.
                        Why do we need to sell !! laughing

                        This is a joke...
          2. Concept1
            Concept1 15 January 2014 14: 05
            +1
            Interesting video:
            1. Concept1
              Concept1 15 January 2014 14: 25
              0
              Especially carefully to all pro-Western clever men to watch from 5:55
              All your praised EuroPean, Israeli and similar Western super-duper equipment will be disabled by dialing some tricky combinations on your clave of some kind of Amerian batan in military uniform because there are bookmarks and this is no secret to anyone !!!
              And all indulges in sticks to fight back laughing
              1. Semurg
                Semurg 15 January 2014 15: 06
                +4
                interesting equipment from Russia goes without bookmarks? If without bookmarks are Russians really worse than a steam locomotive.
                Quote: concept1
                Especially carefully to all pro-Western clever men to watch from 5:55
                All your praised EuroPean, Israeli and similar Western super-duper equipment will be disabled by dialing some tricky combinations on your clave of some kind of Amerian batan in military uniform because there are bookmarks and this is no secret to anyone !!!
                And all indulges in sticks to fight back laughing
                1. marshes
                  marshes 15 January 2014 15: 12
                  +3
                  Quote: Semurg
                  interesting equipment from Russia goes without bookmarks?

                  You did not pay attention to what the Pope flew to the parade in Otar.
                  Inquire about the equipment of "Kokzhal".
                  1. Zymran
                    Zymran 15 January 2014 15: 16
                    +3
                    And what flew in? Hardly on a Superjet.
                    1. Concept1
                      Concept1 15 January 2014 15: 37
                      0
                      Superjet Production:

                      Dates of the first flights for 2013:
                      1 95032/12.02.13/07 _ 95036. 20.06.13 13/95037/26.09.13 _ 19. 95043 01.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      2 95025/22.02.13/08 _ 95009. 29.06.13 14/95038/06.10.13 _ 20. 95055 09.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      3 95028/24.03.13/09 _ 95029. 02.07.13 15/95039/18.10.13 _ 21. 95056 14.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      4 95027/27.04.13/10 _ 95033. 09.08.13 16/95040/02.11.13 _ 22. 95045 22.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      5 95030/20.05.13/11 _ 95034. 28.08.13 17/95042/12.11.13 _ 23. 95046 28.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      6 95031/03.06.13/12 _ 95035. 15.09.13 18/95041/21.11.13 _ 24. 95048 30.12.13/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      Dates of the first flights for 2012:
                      1 95013/16.01.12/4 _ 95017. 29.04.12 7/95019/13.08.12 _ 10. 95020 25.11.12/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      2 95016/02.03.12/5 _ 95021. 03.06.12 8/95023/12.09.12 _ 11. 95026 12.12.12/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      3 95014/04.04.12/6 _ 95018. 12.07.12 9/95022/20.10.12 _ 12. 95024 16.12.12/XNUMX/XNUMX _ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX

                      Production for the year increased 2 times. hi
                    2. Concept1
                      Concept1 15 January 2014 16: 05
                      +1
                      In 2013, Russian industry increased the production of civilian aircraft by 60% compared to the previous year - up to 32 units, the Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov said.
                      "We have increased the volume of aircraft produced by civil aircraft by 60%. Last year's result is 20 aircraft, this year it will be 32," Manturov said in an interview with the Russia 24 TV channel.
                      He noted that 25 of all aircraft released this year should be SSJ-100.
                    3. Concept1
                      Concept1 15 January 2014 16: 17
                      0
                      Well, if you do not like the Superjet ...

                      The first batch is being made at the Irkutsk Aircraft Plant (IAZ)

                      oversized parts of the fuselage elements of a promising passenger aircraft MS-21-YAK-242 for the first flight models.
                      According to the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, Denis Manturov, in the outgoing year all the normative technological documentation was transferred to the plants participating in the implementation of the project to create the MS-21 aircraft. According to the minister, the main result of 2013 will be the completion of the development of design documentation. According to information provided by the Ministry of Industry and Trade, the first flight of the MS-21-200 aircraft is planned for June 2015, and its certification is expected to be completed in 2017.

                      Cabin of pilots Yakovlev-242
                2. marshes
                  marshes 15 January 2014 16: 21
                  +3
                  Quote: Zymran
                  And what flew in? Hardly on a Superjet.

                  On the EU-725.
            2. Concept1
              Concept1 15 January 2014 15: 55
              0
              Paravoz The invention of the Russian word “steam locomotive” is attributed to N. I. Grech, who in the middle of the XNUMXth century published the newspaper Northern Bee. Prior to this, the steam locomotive was called a “scooter steam engine” (or simply “a car”), “steam wagon”, “steam cart”, “steamer” - at the Cherepanovs and V. A. Zhukovsky, and even “steamer”.
              The first two-cylinder vacuum steam engine in Russia was designed by a mechanic I.I. Polzunov in 1763 and built in 1764 in Barnaul. request
  • alone
    alone 15 January 2014 19: 36
    0
    Roman, BTR-82 is a deeply modernized BTR-80. And to call it new is somehow wrong.
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 12: 41
    +1
    Quote: ramin_serg
    making so many weapons and purchasing escho + Improving combat training and command and control of troops is it just that?

    Here, of course, it’s not just that ... here it smells of gunpowder for the Armenians from that Russia and stops Baku, so that there would be a balance of forces in the region.
    1. ramin_serg
      ramin_serg 15 January 2014 13: 33
      0
      Quote: Scandinavian
      Here, of course, it’s not just that ... here it smells of gunpowder for the Armenians from that Russia and stops Baku, so that there would be a balance of forces in the region.

      1. I agree "it smells like gunpowder and lyuli"
      2. I agree "Russia will stop Baku"
      3. I DO NOT agree "that there would be a balance of power in the region" probably TO KEEP DEPENDING ABOUT THE COUNTRY
      1. Scandinavian
        Scandinavian 15 January 2014 15: 04
        +2
        Russia is simply a peacemaker ... otherwise Azerbaijanis and Armenians will cut each other and citizens of Russia and other states may still suffer. No leash at all. Such a hot Caucasian temper ...
    2. Concept1
      Concept1 15 January 2014 13: 53
      0
      Russia’s only at hand, the red button on the striped can stick at a crucial moment, from the fact that for a long time it was simply not smeared with Vaseline ...

      Scandinavian Russia is now profitable. While the former Soviet republics are engaged in complete crap squandering their oil-dollars, Russia creates
      complete military and technological independence. An example is the launch of a plant for the production of helicopter engines in the city of Klimov, adjustment of the production of gas turbine marine engines at Saturn, etc.
      And the Omega plant in Uralsk, Western Kazakhstan was one of the main suppliers
      electronic compotes at SEVMASH in Severodvinsk with the union, now the experts have finished with it, the premises have been rented out, new buildings have not been completed, in a word everything is crushed, and in Russia nuclear submarines were built and are being built.

      And if in Russia such ships as the nuclear submarines Yasen and Borey have implemented the PAK-FA program, then everything else will be created on their own.

      And all the fraternal republics of the Union, sooner or later, are spinning to realize that such a lackey as in the USSR will no longer be.
      And it is still spinning to realize that not a single country in the world has created more competitive competition.
      technology, especially in the defense sector, when it’s not shared, for no money and
      promises at least in the next 10-15 years, but will only be sold in finished form or
      large nodal assembly!
      Because decades of painstaking work, scientific schools, production culture, succession of generations are behind all these technologies!
      1. Scandinavian
        Scandinavian 15 January 2014 14: 50
        +2
        Dear concept1
        Please explain all the above (educational program) to some representatives of the titular nations of the former fraternal Central Asian republics ... To better understand the polit. situation in the former Soviet space.
        My roots are primordially Slavic ... I've been in courses for a long time what is bad and what is good, where is good and where is evil.
        1. Concept1
          Concept1 15 January 2014 16: 28
          0
          It’s like I told you ... Maybe someone else will read !!! ...
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 15 January 2014 17: 05
            +1
            Quote: concept1
            It’s like I told you ... Maybe someone else will read !!! ...
            - I read you with interest, Mr. "Colonel Obvious" and
            Major General Obvious " laughing
            Quote: concept1
            And it is still spinning to realize that no country in the world has created more or less competitive technology, especially in the defense sector, when it will not share it for any money and promise at least in the next 10-15 years, but will only sell it in a finished form or a large assembly unit! Because decades of painstaking work, scientific schools, production culture, succession of generations are behind all of these technologies !!!
            - no one knew this, for me personally - this is a discovery! Nevertheless, breakthroughs are being made and Kazakhstan will make. After all, from time to time, developed countries - holders of secrets, find themselves in a difficult situation. And where will they go? Where did France go? I sold my Zenit naval combat control system, only shoved 4 more troughs into the load, well, nothing, Russia has mastered a secret that it would have had to spend a lot of time on. The main thing is driving, and according to the SABZh, they move at least somehow in Kazakhstan, and this is the main thing. Good or bad, how successful is another question. It will never work without a hitch.
            1. Concept1
              Concept1 15 January 2014 18: 30
              0
              You are right Mistral is an international g..vno, the shame of the times of Serdyukovschina together with its "zenith", but it is necessary to take an agreement to value money. negative

              At the same time, the aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov" is a handsome man. Fully modernized just like new sold to the Indians again the contract !!!

      2. alone
        alone 15 January 2014 19: 42
        0
        Quote: concept1
        . While the former Soviet republics are engaged in complete crap squandering their oil-dollars, Russia creates


        The rest also create and just do not scatter money. I advise you to open your eyes a little wider and look around. If you listen to everything around you are only halfwits.
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 15 January 2014 14: 17
    -2
    A banal story. Eating another cactus by a "small but proud country", and the smaller and more proud the country is, the more fatty cactus. I wonder why Belarus is doing it.
  • Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 15 January 2014 14: 23
    +4
    The article is of course alarmist .. Kazakhstan is trying to create something of its own (and this is the main thing), creating its own scientific and technical base .. And there are always problems of such a plan .. Young people are Kazakh!
    1. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 15 January 2014 20: 29
      +1
      Quote: MIKHAN
      The article is of course alarmist ..

      Well, there is a grain of truth in the article. Cooperation with the Israelis turned out to be ambiguous, some even "sat down". But this is not a reason to sprinkle ashes on its head. Kazakhstan is now looking for itself in the industrial world by trial and error. In the end, only those who do nothing are not mistaken. Let our first enterprises so far, by and large, only "screwdriver assembly", but South Korea started out like that too, and is now inundating the world with products from its automotive and electronics industries.
  • marshes
    marshes 15 January 2014 14: 25
    +4
    Bravo! Have fun ...
    This article is nothing more than a "slap on the head" to the leadership of Kazakhstan Engineering, so that money would be spent wisely.
    Machiavelli is "resting" here. smile
    Center Asia Monitor. smile
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 14: 41
    0
    Quote: Semurg
    opchem all polymers prosrali. chef mustache gone plaster removed the client leaves. And if, without hysteria, the art systems are modernized, they are mastering the assembly of turntables and the construction of small .art vessels, the issue will soon be resolved by armored personnel carriers. Well, whoever is trying to warm up his hands in this matter turns out to be in places not so remote and suddenly they begin to sing a song about the fight against the bloody regime.

    Calm Everyone will sit ...
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 15 January 2014 14: 49
      +2
      about the same, the thieves will sit down the caravan will go further. We must start to do something, it won’t work, something through the stump is a deck, but something will take root. Of the new businesses, 9 out of 10 do not go, but there will be state support in armaments and I think the percentage of working business there will be higher.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • TS3sta3
    TS3sta3 15 January 2014 15: 01
    0
    whatever one may say, Kazakhstan was lucky: two empires are nearby, there is no ocean nearby, Afghanistan with Euro-Africa is far away, oil, gas, grain (strategic resources) are more than we need. greenhouse conditions.
    1. Russ69
      Russ69 15 January 2014 15: 46
      0
      Quote: TS3sta3
      whatever one may say, Kazakhstan was lucky: two empires are nearby, there is no ocean nearby, Afghanistan with Euro-Africa is far away, oil, gas, grain (strategic resources) are more than we need. greenhouse conditions.

      In addition to the estate, something. It’s necessary to use it wisely, and there are problems with this, both in Kazakhstan and in Russia.
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 15 January 2014 17: 10
      +2
      Quote: TS3sta3
      whatever one may say, Kazakhstan was lucky: two empires are nearby, there is no ocean nearby, Afghanistan with Euro-Africa is far away, oil, gas, grain (strategic resources) are more than we need. greenhouse conditions.

      - the Uzbeks - the same thing, human resources - even more gas - higher than the roof, cotton is grown - wow! So what? The same greenhouse conditions, but I see no success. Is this the case? And where does the superpower near? Both are more dangerous than security, but they are SUPER powers! The devil knows what tomorrow a superpower will take a head on. The same to me greenhouse conditions
      1. TS3sta3
        TS3sta3 15 January 2014 18: 30
        -1
        I don’t know how the Uzbeks did not. but war and revolution are not there either, only terrorists are gaining strength, as here.
        Well, how do "these" empires threaten Kazakhstan? can I read your fantasies about this? they are afraid of the overseas empire ... but there is no ocean nearby and "these" empires will not let them frolic here: nobody needs them here.
        and the conditions are really greenhouse: is someone hindering the development of Kazakhstan? threatens the territorial integrity? bombs? imposes sanctions? importing foreign mercenaries for the "war of liberation"?
        in such conditions, it is practically impossible to be a weak, poor and failed state.
  • delfinN
    delfinN 15 January 2014 16: 08
    0
    Quote: ramin_serg

    m will agree on the purchase of Su 27 and Su 35. DO NOT SELL ALL.

    They seem to consider you to be unreliable partners. If they sell the Su 35, he will immediately be in China and the United States. And we need it. Buck up the loot in the research institute, the salaries of engineers, workers, so that later the Chinese people stupidly clone it without investing a dime.
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 15 January 2014 17: 22
      +1
      Quote: delfinN
      They seem to consider you to be unreliable partners. If they sell the Su 35, he will immediately be in China and the United States. And we need it. Buck up the loot in the research institute, the salaries of engineers, workers, so that later the Chinese people stupidly clone it without investing a dime.

      - why guess something? The arms market is very politicized, so political decisions influence sales. The capacity of the SU-35 plant is very limited, it is necessary to sell to China, it is a very important geopolitical ally now. Do not forget who supported Russia and even sent ships to the Mediterranean at the moment when there was a climax in Syria. Forgotten already? There were no Belarusian and Kazakh ships nearby, there were no Belarusian and Kazakh vetoes on the decisions of the Security Council on Syria. So, all things being equal, with limited production capacities, the Russians are selling to China out of turn, and when it comes to us, when it comes, there is NO MUCH to be offended! Well, sometimes think! With all the rest, why does Kazakhstan need SU-35? In a conflict with world powers, they still will not save us; in friendship with Russia, Russia will protect us in these cases. Eternal love for Kazakhs for show-offs! Like, I wear the best! You look at another student - poor fellow, the shoes are falling apart, it's time to change, your feet are wet, and in his hands is a Samsung Galaxy S-5. Where is common sense? And then such a student becomes a minister and give him the SU-35! And again - where is common sense?
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 15 January 2014 22: 42
        +3
        Aksakal, in my opinion, with a developed air defense system and the presence of 200 combat-ready aircraft, including the MiG-31 and 29 and the Su-27, with the help of the MiG-23, will be able to make a rustle over his territory. The main thing, of course, is the skill of the flight crew and command. And here is a raid and constant teachings. In the USSR, at the training ground where I served there were 300 days of "combat". Count every day except weekends and holidays. And this is one flight school: 3 fighter regiments and a helicopter regiment. This is a raid on the ground application. By air and so on, I'm not even in the subject. And of course the air defense, echeloned. Here you still need to cut the whole sky, and as far as possible. Here we are still weak - the air defense must be strengthened.
        I agree that the Su-35 is simply not available to us at the moment, but it is better to immediately T-50. The most modern needs to be taken. 30 cars and 90 light cars. In addition to the existing ones, we have good air forces. Well, dreaming is not bad. lol
        1. Aydar
          Aydar 16 January 2014 18: 17
          +3
          Do not worry, planes and systems will be purchased, but for a start, they are already beginning to repair airbases, this year two more airbases will be repaired. so that in the future they could accept new combat aircraft and helicopters
          1. Kasym
            Kasym 16 January 2014 20: 01
            +1
            Aydar, the modernization of our Air Force began around 2006-2007. Remember, the Minister of Defense was S. Tokpakbaev, in my opinion the mod. Air Force of the Republic of Kazakhstan began with him.
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 15 January 2014 17: 43
    +1
    Quote: aksakal
    - I read you with interest, Mr. "Colonel Obvious" and
    Major General Obvious "

    Mr. Marshal I see conducting a review of our controversy ...
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    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Concept1
      Concept1 15 January 2014 18: 51
      0
      Scandinavian did you watch this movie ?!
  • Dmitriy85
    Dmitriy85 15 January 2014 19: 38
    +6
    EC-145 is a good helicopter. Recently, there were demonstration flights in the mountains with the participation of pilots from France. The helicopter showed excellent results.
    1. marshes
      marshes 15 January 2014 19: 55
      +3
      Quote: Dmitriy85
      EC-145 is a good helicopter. Recently, there were demonstration flights in the mountains with the participation of pilots from France. The helicopter showed excellent results.

      Adding to your words.
  • Power
    Power 17 January 2014 21: 32
    0
    Gloat is not worth it, we have the same "Oboronservis". Around brother, matchmaker, "needy" and other ballast.
  • Igor Ivanov
    Igor Ivanov 20 March 2017 10: 58
    0
    In Russia, I think, not really better, especially with electronics.