Military Review

Do we need a second fleet of the world?

131

In a note to the Navy Day, I wrote that the domestic fleet twice became the second strongest fleet of the world. We will not argue now whether he was such before Port Arthur or not; it is somehow later. And now, in order to answer the question asked in the first comment, I want to try to figure it out: is it now necessary to strive for this?


Based on today's realities, I see two aspects in this question.

First: Does Russia need a powerful navy in the conditions that have developed in the world now and are looking for the future?

Second, where does the state armaments program lead us? That is: what does the leadership of the state see the DESIRABLE might of the fleet?

Do not expect granite formulations, unambiguous statements from me. Anyone who has read a little something about naval leaders, admirals, prime ministers and parliaments at the moments when they thought about, discussed the needs of their fleets - anyone knows how subjective it was to understand the role and needs of the fleet people competent in duty and disposable capabilities. How can I, an amateur ...

What I want to say. Tempted gentlemen, do not bother me with Captain Obvious! That you know all this, and a hundred times more than what is written here. But I know - I know for sure! - that people who go here are horrified as far from the subject matter. Often, by the way, because they simply do not know that it is interesting. There are many, and I want them to be even more. Because my main passion is to show others what interests me. Sorry for the pathos - to enthrall.

And to you, sophisticated, thank you for expanding and deepening this whole thing in the comments.

So the first aspect.

***

The simplest consideration: the length of the coastline. As well as the corresponding vastness of the economic zone, the one that is along the coast, but outside the territorial waters. The tasks here are clear - guarding the border and the economic “birthright”. If we talk about these tasks, then, again, the simplest consideration: there is a need for a large patrol fleet.

Then you can not discuss. Even the most numerous patrol fleet, consisting of light-tonnage vessels with light weapons, is not considered to be one of the world leaders. And its necessity, I think, does not cause doubts.

But it is not a war, it is a peace time. And the war?

Traditionally: the support of the coastal flanks of their armies, the attack on those of the enemy armies. Protect your cabotage and impact on enemy coastal communications. Fighting enemy landings and landing their own.

Do we need a second fleet of the world?

Missile boat pr. 12411М "Lightning" in the center, at the berth from left to right: two intermarkets, pr. 1234 "Mirage" and MRC pr., 1239 "Samum" (air cushion catamaran)


In the heyday of the Soviet Navy, this complex was again solved by small ships: small missile and anti-submarine, missile (and before that - torpedo) boats. Plus submarines (although we practically didn’t build special “babies” after the war), plus the base aviation. This is for communications; and for landing and supporting the flanks - not the largest landing ships of various specializations.

I wanted to start thinking about whether defense of coastal communications, an attack on roads like Petsamo-Kirkenes or Constanta-Sevastopol is now relevant. However, do not need it. Because this is again not an ocean fleet, but for second place (both third and fourth), the fleet must be capable of some part of its forces to go out into the ocean.

So why Russia ocean fleet?

For some reason, he was always needed ... They built our first nautical battleship, "Prince of Pozharsky", and immediately it - on the Mediterranean Sea. Even the monitor type "Peter the Great", and the one in Middle-earth was noted. And always the Russian Imperial fleet kept a squadron there: at least one battleships, yes one cruiser, yes one little gunboat, yes messenger ship ...


Armored frigate "Prince Pozharsky." How I love them, these old armadillos ...


Yes, everyone did that. Anyone who could. And not only in such key points as Miditeranien or some West Indies. We read about "Varyag" - in Chemulpo we see British, American, French and Italian stationery. In Chemulpo! Not in Singapore, not in Nagasaki - in some unimportant Chemulpo!

There can be no point in this. If I do not see it, it does not mean that it does not exist.

Fine; but this is not an argument for a huge fleet! Some corvette "Vityaz" with Miklukha-Maclay quietly sailed to the Papuans, but it was just a wooden steamer in the 2 with a thousand tonnes displacement. Build a dozen relatively small, but well-going ships, and display the flag where you need it.

There is also the task of protecting ocean communications. However, how relevant will this be for Russia, if, God forbid, a big war? I think, in today's scenario, we will not have special ocean communications. This is England without them not to live, and we can handle. We don’t even need to bring nickel from Sweden.

And in peacetime - what is now privateering-privateering? Is that the Somali ... So for this super cruiser is not needed. Even, frankly, it was ridiculous to read in February 2009, as "Peter the Great" detained three pirate boats ...

Well, that came to the main point.

Defense of the country from the sea.

Half a century ago, it became for us to mean fighting nuclear carriers weapons and with carrier strike groups. We must understand that everything was serious. Already at the beginning of 1960's, the boats with the Polaris were on duty in the Mediterranean, and there were always at least one aircraft carrier in the 6 fleet. And already in the ocean ... And now ...


Ours on the Mediterranean. It is written on topwar that the boat is American. Yes, and it seems. If this is the case, then this, I think, is a Gatou-type diesel-electric substation.


The sovereignty of the country was understood, including, as its ability to repel a military attack. What did the leaders of the state do?

Before the advent of nuclear weapons, it was possible to groan, but to tolerate impunity superiority; after all, well, well, half a dozen aircraft carriers go ashore. This means - plus three hundred bombers, besides small ones. Wintering ...

With the advent of long-range nuclear weapons, the requirements have changed, and a real, urgent need to confront its carriers has emerged. And they began to build a fleet corresponding to the task. And built, and, I believe, did the right thing. The fact that it became so large responded to the problem. If he had been built on other principles - without searching for relatively cheap countering options, but by blunt opposition of similar forces - he should have been even more. At least because of the geographical features of the country. And certainly more expensive.

I do not think that among my audience there will be someone who will say: yes, it was all on the FIG ?! But who was going to attack us?

Who is going to attack France? However, she had her own strategic triad, quite classic; and now there are submarines with multiply-charged thermonuclear missiles. The status of a sovereign, independent power, you know, obliges. Do you think that if Germany and Japan were not in the position of villains who lost the war to all respectable humanity, would they now have nuclear weapons? I think it certainly would. They would have got them in 60-70-s and would hardly refuse now.

And what, then, is sovereignty understood differently? Did not the well-known European Union have a predecessor in the person of NATO’s purely military bloc? Does not now have this unit as an adjacent organization? See, what does the desire to gain the ability to beat off the enemy come to? Immediately after the great fight, the former enemies united against the new ...

I believe that literally all countries of the world that have a viable central authority draw their own scenarios of a possible military conflict and are looking for and find ways on which they hope to successfully confront it. Sovereignty still includes the military sector.

And for us, with our geographical openness to “winds from all points”, this sector turns into more than a semi-circle.

Even if you exclude nuclear weapons. I think, considering the potential conflicts between the major powers, it can be excluded.

But only because now it is possible without him.

Again the truism: long-range high-precision weapons take the place of nuclear ones. Already now, in order to cover, say, Vladivostok from the impact of the Tomahawks from the sea, it is necessary to go almost a thousand miles from the coast. Yes, even in the "home waters" of the Japanese fleet ... And when the long-range cruise missiles come to replace the Tomahawks; or when a “potential adversary” decides that it is not a pity to retool ballistic missiles on boats under conventional warheads, then it will be necessary to have absolutely ocean-going ships to fight it.

In this case, one cannot hope for basic aviation. First, it is difficult to detect a submarine from an aircraft, and it is even harder to hit, especially if you have only one aircraft patrolling. It is impossible to organize permanent tracking at all; It will take so many airplanes that it is better to build aircraft carriers.


See, the IL-38 is flying one. Yes, even to him, the unfortunate, "Corsair" was attached. It is also hard for the Corsair: although it is subsonic, it is so difficult for him to fly so slowly. See how pitch noticeable?


Secondly, submarines can be equipped with a naval-air cover, then an anti-ship (anti-aircraft) is added to the anti-submarine mission. It will be necessary for the submarine to send the same three regiments of missile carriers.

Of course, PLs are quite effectively watched by PLs. They can work against the ship's shock, aircraft carrier, amphibious connections.

So, do we focus on submarines?

Maybe, maybe ... Make a fleet that:

- its underwater component will be able, far from the family beaches, to resist the combined power of the surface forces of any possible combination of fleets of our opponents. And also, in combination with the basic anti-submarine aviation, the aggregate potential submarine enemy AS AT BIG, SO AND SMALL REMOVAL from the coast;

- and the surface component, together with aviation, will be able to perform all the required tasks at relatively small distances from the bases.

That is, in short, let submarines go far into the sea and drench everyone there; and let them drench close to the sea, but not any enemy, but mostly underwater. And let the surface ships and aircraft go close to the sea and wet all the surface there: cruisers with Tomahawks, airborne troops and all kinds of military transport. And on occasion, wet submarines, which started a Škoda on our coastal communications.

So?

May be…

I must say, the state armaments program is about that and plans. Only shock and multi-purpose nuclear boats for such a picture is not enough. Well, yes, this is how expensive ...

And the surface - corvettes of the near-sea zone, corvettes and frigates of the distant sea ... Giant destroyers, undoubtedly, oceanic, - sometime later; however, in my scenario, and it is not clear why they are needed at all. Are frigates of the far sea zone unable to overcome the “roaring forties”?

Could such a fleet be the second in the world?


"Fast" - the only ship class "destroyer", who is now in the ranks of the Pacific Fleet


***

Please note, I avoid any clarification. The first of which is just asking for the language: how to distribute the forces between the maritime theaters? What is the principle of distribution: from opportunities or all the same from "how much is needed"? And then - and how much is needed?

What do we need on the Black Sea? How in the XIX century - to catch up and overtake Turkey? Or God be with her, with Turkey, is enough and just reliable defense of their shores? Or, on the contrary, will we prepare for a breakthrough through the straits of the mighty united NATO squadron?

What is needed in the Far East? Overpower Japan? Or just scare her away from the islands? Or, conversely, to pump up so as to repel the combined Japanese-Chinese attack?

And so on. But I, I repeat, bypass this question. Not my mind is this thing. At least, now even it would not be desirable to improvise.

So I repeat the question: can the cumulative fleet of the Russian Federation become the second in the world after the execution of the program before 2025?

Do you understand what's wrong. Now, when it turned out that the logic of the state program coincides with mine, the question: should we take the fleet to second place in the world? This question loses its meaning. If I have approved the state program, then why further ask if it is properly drafted? Therefore it is necessary to ask - shouldn't it? can it?

Hell knows.

Above, I talked about the LG, but we already have something. Large is: an aircraft carrier, four huge nuclear cruisers, several BOD, several destroyers. Some of this is floating, something is being upgraded or waiting for modernization. And also “Mistrali” ... If all the plans are fulfilled, the fleet will have so many ships and such that it will be enough not only to demonstrate the flag, indeed, anywhere in the world, but also to measure the belly with other maritime powers.

By the way, why destroyers are needed: they will ripen when the ships being modernized today will finally develop all the possible resources.

Actually, I myself did not notice how I became involved in the second aspect: what the authors of the weapons program want.

So what's up with second place? With whom we will be measured?

The first thing that deserves this honor is France. For only she (the States do not believe, here and until the end of the article is coming soon!), Only she has a normal aircraft carrier.


Two "Rafal" and four "Super Etandard" on the deck of "Charles de Gaulle"


What else?

Four nuclear missile "Triumfana" do not consider. In addition to them, six multipurpose nuclear submarines.

And then - continuous frigates and corvettes. 23 first and nine second. And about twenty small patrol ships. Plus three Mistrals, plus one or two Foodr docks.

Well, if we really build 2020 corvettes and 20 frigates by 14, then the French do not dance.

Britannia.

The most fig in the sense of our calculation is that England is building two large aircraft carriers, with a displacement of the same as our Kuznetsov. True, they are designed for the fighter UP F-35. Missile boats will not be considered, there are four of them. There are nine attack / multipurpose boats, all atomic - but here we are also stronger.

Six solid destroyers, 13 solid frigates, two universal amphibious assault ships and one amphibious assault ship.


The squadron destroyer Her Majesty "Daring". And what, really solid car. But - I feel a great deal of sadness in the outgoing classic of ship architecture ...


With the mistress of the seas everything is clear. If "peremogut", then only by aircraft carriers. I do not think that this would allow them to take second place overall. We occupied it in 1970-x, when we did not have a single intelligent aircraft carrier.

Japan.

It's simple and stressful.

Simply - because I recently dealt with this issue.

Tense ...

Four powerful destroyer-helicopter. Plus 41 destroyer of various denominations, mostly large. Plus six frigates. Very powerful ship fleet, distinctly oceanic. If the Japanese were standing still, we would have “made them”. But they will not stand! And if the Japanese want to have an aircraft carrier, they'll build it in three years! They want to have three - they will build three at once!

In general, the sons of Amaterasu can not let us into second place. And if I’m not doing the stupid things that I’m doing now — an abstract comparison of total forces — and looking at the balance of forces in the theater, then, as they say, Honduras is bothering me.

Speaking of theaters. Turkey has 14 submarines, 19 frigates and seven corvettes. So our Black Sea Fleet is where it is going.

Finally, try to see the Chinese.

As I understand it, China’s multipurpose nuclear submarines will have 14 units by year for 2020-25. This is a dangerous rapprochement with our similar forces. By the way, the nuclear missile boat from China is still one, but four more are being built.

Non-nuclear boats from the Chinese are now 48, and there will be more. Apparently, in this class they will overtake us.

The first Chinese aircraft carrier, our former "Varyag", was introduced into the fleet last year. The second, of its own design, experts expect that year to 2020. That is, if so, they will then have two aircraft carriers against one of ours. Poorly.

The landing fleet of the Chinese is powerful, about a hundred ships. Of these, two airborne helicopter dock; maybe the Mistrals were bought with an eye to this circumstance? Be that as it may, 100 amphibious ships and 150 amphibious boats - as I understand it, several times more than our similar forces.

On the 2011 year, the Chinese Navy included 27 destroyers and the 51 frigate. Ships of these classes are being built now, but not quickly. In general, quantitatively there are many of them, but qualitatively they are relatively weak. Because they are mostly old weapons and electronics. Even on the newest ships, these things correspond to foreign technology (often ours) 10-15-year-old.


The missile destroyer "Changchun" entered the combat force of the PRC Navy. Source: People's Daily Online 18: 20.05 / 02 / 2013.
Well I do not know. Looks superfood


On the other hand, the experts write that the Chinese are much more able to do for yourself, and do a lot more in a simplified way. Gas and steam turbines, high-pressure boilers they can not do even under license. They do not even have automatic guns, mines and torpedoes of their own design.

That is, we seem to have a quality handicap.

However, what is quality? This is thin matter ... How many conversations were there that our huge socialist fleet was, like, on clay feet because of the imperfection of electronics and weapons?

Yes, even the Chinese have a lot of rocket boats. Since the rocket doesn't care if it was launched from a cruiser or from a plywood shell, they, too, should probably be counted in the balance.

In short, here I do not presume to argue. I won’t even be able to promise to understand - a real expert is needed here, not a fan like me.

***

What do we have in the "Total" section?

If the Japanese take a mighty throw in the part of building up their navy, they may not miss us in second place.

However, I seriously would not consider such an option.

If the Chinese get powerful technological support and modernize at least half of what they are currently swimming, and even build something, they may not let us go to second place.

I would consider this option seriously. Especially if the planning horizon is not 2020, and not 2025, but at least 2030 a year.

If we begin to disrupt our program, we do not shine at all. If we start to tear strongly, then we will leave behind the Gauls with the Britons. However, in this I also do not believe.


Well, to reach such a second place, which we had at the end of 1980, when the Soviet Navy was inferior in combat capabilities to the US Navy, but the displacement exceeded them - we won’t get another 50 years to reach this second place, I think .

Of course, this is already stupid. Over the years 50 this can happen ... so ...

Everything. Again, consider writing all day. But I'm on vacation. And I do not see the light of God.
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  1. Romn
    Romn 15 January 2014 08: 56
    +12
    We need a fleet, we need one of the strongest, not even 2, but 1. Although we are a land power, is it worth reminding of recent incidents, our ships were detained in Africa and Norway, if our ships had a constant presence of full-fledged battle groups, could these curts feel so impressive? And the United States would have behaved more humble if it had not felt like the only master in the vast expanses of water.
    Yes, we are a land power, but the aggressor most likely will not be our neighbor, but how do we get to overseas friends !?
    A fleet is needed, definitely needed. Not for fighting, but to prevent such ...
    1. Trailer
      Trailer 15 January 2014 10: 49
      +15
      The second fleet in the world is without a doubt the Japanese. Why? Yes, because they have it all concentrated in one region, but with us, with all the desire, we will have to drive it all from all over Russia (ala Tsushima 2)
      1. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 11: 02
        +17
        Do we need a second fleet of the world?


        NO!

        We need the FIRST fleet of the world.


        But then.

        When for this there will be resource opportunities (population, industry, economy ...) and political necessity (the size of the country will become such that we will only have a maritime border with the Anglo-Saxon civilization of the sea and a direct conflict will become inevitable).

        Until then, we will manage the fleet SUFFICIENT. The size of a sufficient fleet, no doubt, will be determined by specialists, strategists, real analysts (not to be confused with analists) on the basis of mathematical models, state capabilities and, again, necessity.

        ZY

        90 - why do we cut ships?

        00 (beginning) - why don't we build ships?

        00 (end) - why do we build unit ships?

        10th - Do we need a second fleet of the world?

        In my opinion, progress on the face and the trend cannot but rejoice. The country has come a long way to make this possible.
        1. patsantre
          patsantre 15 January 2014 13: 04
          +2
          But if you compare the composition, then only after the 10th there has been a place to be. So do not have illusions.
      2. Shur
        Shur 16 January 2014 23: 24
        0
        There will be no Herosima and Nagasaki X2
    2. Trailer
      Trailer 15 January 2014 10: 49
      +1
      The second fleet in the world is without a doubt the Japanese. Why? Yes, because they have it all concentrated in one region, but with us, with all the desire, we will have to drive it all from all over Russia (ala Tsushima 2)
    3. Ataman
      Ataman 15 January 2014 11: 11
      +15
      in order to have not even the 2nd, but the 1st fleet, you must first have not even the 2nd, but the 1st economy in the world
      1. URAL72
        URAL72 15 January 2014 16: 28
        +4
        "to have not even the 2nd, but the 1st fleet, you must first have not even the 2nd, but the 1st economy in the world"

        Everything is correct. I will correct the author: the USSR also had the most powerful (perhaps in the whole world) coastal naval aviation. Plus coastal missile systems. Bottom line: we do not need socialist competition at sea, in the event of a collision with world giants, everything will be decided by the Strategic Missile Forces. It is also important to reinforce their submarines with KR and SSBN. This is yes. To solve local problems (in Syria, for example), not so large escort forces and landing ships are needed - if we had a couple of Mistrals now, our voice in Mediterranean would sound much more convincing, especially for bearded assholes at a distance of up to 200 km from the coast. As for the aircraft carriers, I’m all for it, but now we will not pull. To drive into a stall, but more reliably, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, then, of course, such a power in the economy and in armaments can think of the top three ... But the collapse of the USSR is such a serious catastrophe that in 50 years Russia alone will difficult to disentangle ... Therefore, first the economy, raise the standard of living of the population so that the "hesitant" would not even have a thought about some kind of EU, then the USSR-2, and then expand the space to the Atlantic, for which the fleet will be needed. For pacifists, I advise you to look at the map of the world, where there were be the borders of Russia.
    4. Genry
      Genry 15 January 2014 11: 18
      +8
      The fleet must conform to the "stick in the wheel" principle for the rest. Counteraction is cheap and effective. There is no need to chase a place.
    5. Civil
      Civil 15 January 2014 11: 32
      +2
      Everything is fine, everything can be built, but the question is what kind of bucks, there is no money. To the detriment of the population to buy? So we buy real estate in London, the question is to increase the economy and income.
      1. Gost
        Gost 15 January 2014 14: 10
        +7
        The beginning of the construction of the fleet is the rise of the economy. This is the money that goes, including for modernization, payments zp workers, the development of science, etc. The more we build, rather than buy, the better for ourselves.
    6. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg 15 January 2014 15: 56
      +4
      Quote: Romn
      We need a fleet, we need one of the strongest, not even the 2nd, but the 1st. Although we are a land power,


      This is where we should stop. Land power, defense doctrine. We do not need an imperial fleet like the United States to solve narrow economic interests.

      The solution should be asymmetric. For example, a military ship of an unidentified state in neutral waters is trying to capture our trawler ... twenty minutes later, a military ship is destroyed by a high-precision warhead of an anti-ship ballistic missile. Or, for example, the American aircraft carrier from which planes take off to bomb the Union State suddenly receives critical damage to the hull below the waterline and loses speed, the power plant crashes, etc. etc. ... who launched the attack does not know where the missiles were launched from, the aggressor is disabled, everyone is happy.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 15 January 2014 19: 22
        +1
        Excuse me - is this a mockery? If not, then I can assure you that the option with "no one knows where the launches came from is unknown" is, to put it mildly, unscientific fantasy. It will be installed maximum one day (from under the water) or immediately (by air)
      2. Shur
        Shur 16 January 2014 23: 43
        0
        To be measured in size .. in times of ultra-precise and super-high? I agree with you, besides mathematics there is also physics. Needed, and certainly not quantitative. How easy it is not to build again in the end something that will become obsolete on the "approach" or will begin to "save on matches." It is necessary to sharpen such a "stake" in order to drive it in firmly and dullly on occasion. Cybernetic times are coming, robots. The adversaries are busy
        "Within the framework of the LDUUV program, another one will be implemented, aimed at the development of the AUV energy system. The first stage of this program is designed for three years. As a result, it is planned to develop an energy supply system that will allow the AUV to operate under water for 30 days. After the second stage, the underwater robot will be able to operate under water for 70 days.The mass of the energy source for the promising AUV will be about 3,5 tons.
        The new underwater robot will be used to perform a wide range of tasks, including patrolling, reconnaissance, clearing mines, combat operations, and the detection and tracking of submarines and surface ships over long distances. As expected, a tender for the development of a new device will be announced in 2014. By this time, the US Navy command intends to fully determine the requirements for large-capacity AUVs, including its displacement and size.
        One of the possible participants in the future tender may be the American concern Boeing, which in 2001 developed the Echo Ranger deep-sea autonomous vehicle with a displacement of five tons. This AUV is capable of diving to a depth of three thousand meters. The robot is 5,5 meters long and 1,27 meters in diameter. He is capable of speeds up to eight knots. The Echo Ranger can operate underwater for 28 hours. "
      3. Shur
        Shur 16 January 2014 23: 51
        +1
        Yes, so far, but tomorrow what?
    7. Megatron
      Megatron 15 January 2014 18: 34
      +2
      The author could not write in normal language? I barely read this tongue-tied tongue with all sorts of silly turns.
    8. starshina78
      starshina78 15 January 2014 19: 51
      +5
      In some ways I agree with the author, in some things I fundamentally disagree. The author either served in the navy or is closely acquainted with the naval service. My disagreements are, not only MRK and MPK, minesweepers, and other OVR vessels must guard our coastal zone, but also, as it was in the USSR, serve the BOD and TFR. The zones in which our fishermen, the ships of the Marine Fleet, work, must also be protected, and this was in the USSR. TFRs or BODs were always "accidentally" in the vicinity. Do you need an ocean-going fleet? Of course, very much. And such ships as destroyers and cruisers (the Americans have an unspoken order not to approach our "Peter" closer than 500 km, that is, to the operation zone of "Granit"), destroyers and cruisers, if built, should be designed for fight against a new American threat - the Aegis cruiser with missile defense on board. , aircraft carriers maybe. Helicopter carriers, yes, as a means of finding and destroying nuclear submarines. "Moskva" and "Leningrad" at one time allowed almost the entire Mediterranean Sea to be kept at gunpoint, I mean the enemy's submarines. Don't forget about the modern auxiliary fleet (in which I served). Warships could not exist without us. Without an icebreaker, the nuclear submarine could not go out to sea, tankers and aquarius, food and armament supply vessels, rocket carriers, sea and rescue tugs, submarine rescue ships, hospitals, demagnetization vessels, SFP (vessel for measuring physical fields), and much more. This should be built. So the fleet is needed, and let it be the second, but the ocean, and which can protect us from the foe.
    9. Shur
      Shur 16 January 2014 23: 22
      +3
      Russia is a continental power and "38808 km - sea borders", i.e. more than half.
  2. Stiletto
    Stiletto 15 January 2014 09: 10
    +15
    I think no one in the world would give up the "very, very" fleet. However, the existing realities make you "stretch your legs over your clothes". Much is not going well in our economy. There are no prerequisites for any successful and dynamic development of it in the foreseeable future. This should be the starting point, and when building new ships, the criterion "the best quality for a lower price" is the cornerstone.
    1. Tektor
      Tektor 15 January 2014 12: 12
      -4
      We need to carefully calculate everything: how many missiles are in the salvo of the yappons, the chinas, the states? What purpose? How much can they release? And based on this, it is necessary to build an aggregate defense, in which the fleet is only part of it. We cannot do without active counteraction ... It is clear that when the combined strike potential of the states and jappons is capable of launching 300 missiles for each of our Pacific Fleet ships, it makes no sense to discuss the capabilities of the fleet. We need to adopt a counter strategy. Today, the key issue of simple fleet conservation is air defense. Fortunately, we have a very effective answer - this is the new Tor-M2U complex, which must be produced at an expeditious pace and placed on the entire coast and islands. This is what you can quickly and efficiently (price / quality) do. Buki-M2 besides. In addition to all the obvious actions to build the fleet and coastal forces, I would put emphasis on the Yaki-130, which can be produced in a large series, and which with honor will be able to repulse a significant part of the missile salvo with air-to-air missiles. The fact that there is no radar on the yaks is even a plus: they need external target designation, and they themselves are very difficult to notice (invisible).
      PS By the way, I would not take China into account: with a high degree of probability they drove themselves into a debt trap, and soon they will not be able to even drive flies from their cutlets. But they can stick to us: there’s simply nowhere else to go.
  3. klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 09: 14
    +1
    The second is not needed! Need the first one!
    I have not read the article.
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 09: 52
      +1
      Someone really thought that I did not read the article)))))
  4. poccinin
    poccinin 15 January 2014 09: 31
    +11
    RUSSIA needs a BIG FLEET with aircraft carriers and nuclear-powered cruisers RUSSIA THE SEA POWER is washed by the waters 3-THREE! OCEANS! which mosquito fleet gentlemen? "problems" should be intercepted at distant lines and not at home.
  5. Nayhas
    Nayhas 15 January 2014 10: 15
    +5
    The identification of optimists has begun. Four of the first for the Russian Navy to be the first ... Well, of course it is feasible, you just need to take all the money from the social network, not pay all civil servants and pensioners (transfer them to coupons), raise taxes several times and go ... Once Comrade Ceausescu set a goal for the country to pay off all debts, probably argued with someone ... Well, in general, the task was completed, but Ceausescu paid a lot for this ...
    Surround comrades / gentlemen! Russia will not pull even the third and fourth! Russia has such a plan that it is necessary to create a complete set for each fleet, and ships and a repair base ... It’s good for the Chinese, even in Dalian to repair, or even in Shanghai, it’s not far to drive, but you can’t send us from the Pacific Fleet to the Baltic for repair, may not reach. Or the same Turks, in a short time strengthened the grouping in the Black Sea at the expense of the Mediterranean and gained superiority at times ... But to drive from the Baltic to the Black Sea oh so far, and the same Turks can easily stop this. Most countries with a fleet are not quite difficult in a short time to concentrate all their forces on one site (at least the majority), but the fleets share huge distances, and even land (Caspian flotilla), so Russia is much more expensive to maintain a fleet .. Yes, the USSR could afford a large fleet, but it didn’t draw the full infrastructure, which ended up more than tragic for the USSR fleet. Do you really want to repeat the sad fate of the USSR Navy, comrades / gentlemen?
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 10: 58
      +5
      The identification of optimists has begun. Four of the first for the Russian Navy to be the first ... Well, of course it is feasible, you just need to take all the money from the social network, not pay all civil servants and pensioners (transfer them to coupons), increase taxes by several times and more ...

      The oligarchs have enough money for the fleet.
      What social network now? With me and so turn out. And for what? ...
      The USSR could afford a large fleet, but it didn’t draw the full infrastructure,

      ...

      Explain to me wretched. Why won't Russia pull the ocean-going fleet? They talk about oil, gas, inexhaustible resources, and when it comes to the fleet and social services, they turn me out of my way. The state does not help me in any way, in general. And they constantly say that you have to pay 100 percent for communal services. How is it in a country where you can wash your face with oil ?! Sorry for the confusion and emotions, but I really don’t understand why we don’t pull the fleet and distribute loans to the right and left of the Olympiads, world championships, in the end, the officials maintain a device such that there is definitely enough for two Kuzi ...
      Answer a ...
      And if we don’t pull, then our territories are worthless ... Why then do we need a toy fleet? That was?

      Or the same Turks, in a short time strengthened the grouping in the Black Sea due to the Mediterranean and gained superiority at times ...

      By your logic, is it necessary to abandon territories? Or how? So it’s difficult to pull aviation, and indeed the army is oh, what a disadvantageous business. But it is unprofitable only for temporary workers, the so-called effective managers who think today how to eat and sleep, if necessary, dump a thread over a hill (in the best case).
      This is not about you - this is me in general
      1. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 11: 23
        -3
        And you excuse me for the emotional response.

        Do not like Russia? Get out ...
        And the way the woman is bazaar is not so, and then he was stolen from him, and they didn’t finish it ...
        Weak to go to the prosecutor’s office, unlearn 5 years, make efforts to get there and change what is possible from the inside. Weak? Or in court ... Or in mentovka ... Or in other state. institutions ... Weak? You should all be presented on the little bucket? Won't stick together?

        ================================

        90 - why do we cut ships?

        00 (beginning) - why don't we build ships?

        00 (end) - why do we build unit ships?

        10th - Do we need a second fleet of the world?

        Progress on the face and the trend cannot but rejoice. The country has come a very long way to make this possible, to begin to seriously think and plan: Which fleet do we need?

        This can be "overlooked" either by outright agents of information influence, or by victims of liberal propaganda.
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 15 January 2014 11: 40
          +2
          Do you like Russia? Get out ...
          And the way the woman is bazaar is not so, and then he was stolen from him, and they didn’t finish it ...
          Weak to go to the prosecutor’s office, unlearn 5 years, make efforts to get there and change what is possible from the inside. Weak? Or in court ... Or in mentovka ... Or in other state. institutions ... Weak? You should all be presented on the little bucket? Won't stick together?

          Are you this to me? wassat I asked a question, why Russia will not pull the ocean fleet? Tovarisch believes that it is necessary to take away the social network which is already gone. And yes, I work, pay taxes, produce a strategic product. What was taken away from me and what didn’t they finish? Did I talk about this? I sincerely do not understand why this is possible. Why some may not pay and others say that they are obliged to pay ...
          Weak? Or in court ... Or in mentovka ... Or in other state. institutions ... Weak? You should all be presented on the little bucket? Won't stick together?

          What?

          Yes, they present me on a silver platter wassat

          The production of complex mineral fertilizers (nitroamofoska). No, I’m not going to fumble, but I already have a person who is 27 years old and who has more than half of the teeth already inserted (by the way, at my own expense, how much does the prosthetics cost?), Talk about what's on the platter. Well, forgive me ...
          1. Ivan_Ivanov
            Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 12: 12
            -2
            you don't like social
            you don't like communal
            you don't like the olympiad
            you don't like world championships
            you do not like how the country gives loans
            you do not like the domestic politics of the country
            you do not like the financial policy of the country

            and all this was learned in the topic, which deals with the fleet. what is this if not "Yaroslavna's cry"?

            do you think Putin and Co. are complete fools? Well, choose a country where you think it would be better, where the state is not so stupid. here, by the way, about Canada:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odPdNWi_mCo
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 19
              +7
              The plaque is a fly. You are sick? Yes, I don’t like when they spend money not on the fleet but on things that are incomprehensible to me, when they are trying to build a facade and are silent about problems, why are you all brought up here. To a very specific question, it is unclear what links throw me.

              you don't like social
              you don't like communal
              you don't like the olympiad
              you don't like world championships
              you do not like how the country gives loans
              you do not like the domestic politics of the country
              you do not like the financial policy of the country

              Do you like it? DO YOU ALL LIKE? All run into the principle can not you even read what I write? Or am I shaking the air here. What other country? The maximum where I can go is Belarus and then once a year to relatives ...
              "chew your bread and wash it down with water (s)" - such a logic?
              1. Ivan_Ivanov
                Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 12: 28
                -3
                And if you had spent the money on the fleet, you would have shouted that you didn’t give money to people for social services, sports, everything else, tries. then this fleet surrendered to us ??? So????
                Well, if it weren’t for you shouting it (although I think that shouting), then there are a lot, many others.
                The task of the state is not to please you personally, not to explain to you personally what and why (you will not explain to everyone), but to conduct a balanced policy in the conditions of dominance of agents of influence and many factors of counteraction and aggression against the country.

                Are you sitting on bread and water? Not? A-ah-you all seems a little ...
                1. klimpopov
                  klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 39
                  +1
                  And if you spent the money on the fleet, you would be screaming that on the social network

                  But do not if. First, the army, then everything else ...
                  Are you sitting on bread and water? Not? A-ah-you all seems a little ...

                  But what’s there - I’m fattening, I eat caviar in a spoon, and the bear pours me vodka and plays the balalaika))))). In your opinion, it turns out that the average salary 13 000 rubles in Stavropol when communal (dvushka 2,5 r) is a LOT? Well, okay - maybe the fat is really crazy ... Bati has a harmful pension according to the first grid) 5, 800))))))))))))) Also an oligarch, damn it, I'll call you I’ll say that Dad, they’d say that you’ve snickered and you don’t understand Nichrome, the state can say you got rich (you could not pay a pension at all) and you spit in the face of Serdyukov when they show him in the box, it’s not good, Dad, you don’t speak well of our oligarchs, for example, Melnichenko pays you s / p ? pays! What else do you want? There aren’t so many of them behind the fence, but it did it in the late nineties and now it doesn’t, there are no young people, they don’t go for such salaries. Apparently they are changing the system from the inside, getting by hook or by crook to the prosecutor’s office and the courts, I’m the only one who work flawed at the factory and work here ....
                  Show you to the head of Russian Railways? What kind of shisha? Continue?
                  pursue a balanced policy in the conditions of dominance of agents of influence and many factors of resistance and aggression against the country.

                  Where is she balanced? You are from Ukraine? Do you often visit Russia? And not in the MSC, but in Russia?
                  By the way, at the expense of agents of influence, these agents rule the ball ...
                  1. Ivan_Ivanov
                    Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 13: 01
                    -1
                    First, the army, then everything else ...

                    And many think differently. As a result, so that the state does not do it, there will be those who will try to pour mud over it, and the liberals will help. Is it really necessary to relate to your country?

                    Yes there - I’m fattening ..

                    And you come to us, see how we live. Maybe then you will understand that you live quite normally, that there is a positive trend, that there are prospects? ... Or go to Europe, see how they live in Slovakia, Greece, the Czech Republic, Spain, Italy ... Turn it around, you live no worse.

                    A-ah, envy takes you that the head of Russian Railways in chocolate? Does Sharikov’s psychology get out? Even under Stalin, simple professors, chief engineers and directors had servants. What can we say about those Stalinist ministers. Do you think that Stalin was a great, wise, fair ruler? And I think so. But the ministers, the people in their respective posts, lived very well under him. And it is right. Didn’t steal? Yes, they did not steal. But the state provided them with this level.

                    Do you often visit Russia? And not in the MSC, but in Russia?

                    I happen. And relatives live. And I see the difference. You are well done, you live much better than in Ukraine, you work. But why are you constantly whining? Brother and wife came. Works as a carrier. Everything is aching. He rents an apartment in the regional center, and bought a car, and drives to rest, and saves for an apartment, a family of votive shoes. And it aches ... After spending several days with us, dissatisfaction with their lives and Russia has diminished. Believe me, you live quite NORMALLY. It is the liberal media that convince you that you are being eaten up, that you are in ... de. Do you have enough strength to admit to yourself that your opinion is the result of liberal propaganda?

                    By the way, at the expense of agents of influence, these agents rule the ball ...

                    If this were so, Russia would not exist, or at best, it would be the same as it was in the 90s. Thank God that you do not remember this ... The struggle is ongoing. And the statesmen are just a little, with microscopic victories, pushing these agents out.
                    1. Ivan_Ivanov
                      Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 13: 12
                      0
                      But listen to how they live in Spain.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsklmJb2_JE
                    2. klimpopov
                      klimpopov 15 January 2014 13: 25
                      +1
                      A-ah, envy takes you that the head of Russian Railways in chocolate?

                      Nope not envy but anger, wild malice! And why do you equate professors with officials? There is no need to compare the Stalinist times, but they lived well, they were ensured that they could work and they knew that they would not work, they would be shot or not, they would work poorly, they would be shot (I’m exaggerating, although why am I exaggerating? No, everything’s right).
                      I just do not whine, I'm talking about the problems that have a place to be. I am talking about the fact that the official simply does not have the right to live as he lives in Russia. Who pays the official money? And for what? They understood correctly. Do professors know how they live now?
                      And yet, do you think privatization was an honest move?
                      Believe me, you live quite NORMALLY.

                      ...
                      And about whining ... I heard enough from the Ukrainians. So shi. By the way, I don’t generalize, but we have a carrier, a Ukrainian is what he says: “- while it’s okay here, I’ll beat you here, as soon as I’m pressing down, I’m from Donetsk,” I call him a man without a homeland, an adult uncle .. ...
                      1. Ivan_Ivanov
                        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 13: 36
                        0
                        And yet, do you think privatization was an honest move?

                        Of course not. Privatization is a robbery of our countries.

                        But the minister-level official should live accordingly, that is, very well.

                        You are sorry that the head of Russian Railways - a mega-enterprise of Russia should live, how ???
                        Here Chubais lives much more modestly than the head of Russian Railways. So is he better?

                        it is simply amazing how indisputable positive changes in military shipbuilding can become a pretext for expressing your fairy to your country, how it can become a pretext for pouring mud of your country through the Olympics and the life of the head of one of the largest companies in the country ...
                      2. klimpopov
                        klimpopov 15 January 2014 14: 13
                        +2
                        Oh, where and whom did I pour mud on? Do not mix flies with cutlets! The head of Russian Railways OFFICIAL and he should live well, just fine, maybe even perfectly.
                        But not like now, I am sincerely sure of this! And the judge must live well! And the prosecutor! But this concept is relative! For example, I don’t understand why the prosecutor should drive a M Series BMW, I don’t understand why a judge should drive a Mercedes S series, and I don’t understand why deputies get so many salaries, plus they also do their own business, they also lobby , okay in the wilds climbed ...
                        There are quite normal cars but much cheaper. Yes, this is all private, but everything as a whole is made up of this private. Or do you exclude the corruption component?
                        And yet, why does Vanya Ivanov have to live in shit, he’s just a good locksmith, he does his job, he does it well, he doesn’t have a replacement at the factory and maybe he won’t be there anymore, you’ll blame him for wanting it himself, Is he not trying to break the system?
                        I really do not understand why, for example, the head of Russian Railways can afford to live like this ...
                        it is simply amazing how indisputable positive changes in military shipbuilding can become a pretext for expressing your fairy to your country, how it can become a pretext for pouring mud of your country through the Olympics and the life of the head of one of the largest companies in the country ...

                        To be silent in a rag ????
                        Remember the old joke?
                        about the rope and soap to bring with you? This is approximately your position.
                      3. Ivan_Ivanov
                        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 14: 31
                        0
                        The head of Russian Railways OFFICIAL and he should live well, just fine, maybe even perfectly.
                        But not like now, I am sincerely sure of this!

                        And Navalny thinks so, and Udaltsov, and Nemtsov, and Latynina, and other grant-eaters. Doesn’t it bother you that you are in their company? But it was they who inspired you with the idea that you have the right to judge who should live like that. Note that you are outraged, not by the fact that the head of Russian Railways took a specific bribe, but by the way he lives. Toad crushes?

                        Engaged in embezzlement and bribery in Russia? Yes. Of course. And in Ukraine too. Do I need to deal with this? Yes. Undoubtedly! Only this is no reason to belittle the real successes of the country where they are, where they are undeniable.

                        Come to us, to Ukraine and you will see that the standard of living, the level of salaries, is much lower than in Russia, but even here simple locksmiths do not live in shit (as you put it).

                        Stop whining. Your dissatisfaction, your views, your eternal resentment - is the result of anti-Russian propaganda by the grant media. Find the courage to admit it! You are a Russian person ...
                        (or not?)
                      4. yehat
                        yehat 15 January 2014 14: 39
                        +5
                        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov

                        Engaged in embezzlement and bribery in Russia? Yes. Of course. And in Ukraine too. Do I need to deal with this? Yes. Undoubtedly! Only this is no reason to belittle the real successes of the country where they are, where they are undeniable.

                        The real successes of the country, you say?
                        Do you know what they are, real?
                        And the reality is that the average productivity in the territory of the former RSFSR fell 3.5 times in comparison with the USSR.
                        Here they are, successes. And for the most part, we owe such successes to just innocent excesses - such as a Mercedes instead of a Volga, 3 bosses instead of one, why it is better to produce than there is - let's hire a crowd of salespeople who stick in what is, etc.
                        here it is, a parody of a market economy. Russia's greatest achievement in recent years.
                      5. Ivan_Ivanov
                        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 14: 44
                        -1
                        the average productivity in the territory of the former RSFSR fell 3.5 times in comparison with the USSR.


                        And it grew by 2 times compared to the 90s ...
                      6. yehat
                        yehat 15 January 2014 15: 04
                        +3
                        zero times zero will be zero. learn math.
                      7. Ivan_Ivanov
                        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 06
                        -3
                        Wear glasses, or learn to count ...
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. klimpopov
                  klimpopov 15 January 2014 14: 52
                  +3
                  And Navalny thinks so, and Udaltsov, and Nemtsov, and Latynina, and other grant-eaters.

                  Why did I end up in their company? They play on very real problems. They earn political capital for themselves.)))) They are given a reason to behave like that and that’s all, why do we need to talk about the crisis from the TV and buy expensive cars for prosecutors? And to increase the salary of deputies?

                  I see the plant from the inside and I see that he has a cord in a maximum of five years. Here are the real successes. I see patching, constant patching and wear work, I see how they are shaking their pensions, how the average age at the plant has increased in recent years. I see that no one will invest in the plant, just then they will hand it over for scrap and take it off and the city will rise (the PIC is already closed) ... I see profit making and leaving it to the left, because a normal breeder will invest in his plant, but businessman just makes a profit at the moment, no more. I see funny thorough repairs (when it is simply rearranged from one place to another), I see Ukrainian repaired bearings, which initially do not spin, and the technology should have SKF or their analogues, I see a lot of things. I see the dropouts after the institute, okay, they don’t know Ohm’s law, they cannot add two plus two (no, I don’t argue sound ones, but they are not held up for long), and they were told that you need to go over the heads, you need to become the boss, the bosses make them - arrogant tyrants who do not understand anything either in technological processes or in the organization of production, and so on and so forth ... Fuh is boiling ...
                  But it was they who inspired you with the idea that you have the right to judge who should live like that. Note that you are outraged, not by the fact that the head of Russian Railways took a specific bribe, but by the way he lives. Toad crushes?

                  Show you the house of prosecutors in Cherkessk? The head of Russian Railways is a child compared to them ...
                4. Ivan_Ivanov
                  Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 05
                  +1
                  They play on very real problems.

                  created by their grantors. and if there are no real problems, they invent and create them.

                  There are problems in any country. Just don’t need to project the broken spheres to where they are in places where there are real positive results.

                  Yes, by the way, Do you know how many factories were closed over the last 5-10 years in Spain, Italy, the Czech Republic, the Baltic states, France ... NO? Well, yes, our unworthy media do not talk about this ...
                5. klimpopov
                  klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 19
                  0
                  It is not necessary to project success on problematic sectors - this is VERY harmful and leads to much more deplorable results.

                  they invent and create them.

                  What they come up with does not work. Didn’t it go to the swamp?
                  Who was there in that swamp? Any garbage and the so-called intelligentsia, which is not it.
                  Yes, by the way, and you know how many factories have been closed over the past few years, 5-10 in Spain, Italy, the Czech Republic, the Baltic States, France ... NO? Well, yes, our unworthy media do not talk about this ...

                  So what? Which of these? By the way, I would look at the numbers. Any statistics? Since you said ...
                6. Ivan_Ivanov
                  Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 24
                  0
                  But it went with the head of Russian Railways and the Olympics.

                  There are plenty of problems. But they are all solvable. And (judging by the results already achieved) they will certainly be resolved.
                7. klimpopov
                  klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 35
                  0
                  But it went with the head of Russian Railways and the Olympics.

                  Well, the olympiad, okay, you can also boo, in the end it is peculiar to the Russian soul)))))
                  Yes, I just see a kakya abyss (this is about officials) Russian Railways is just an example, here you look at the local ...

                  There are plenty of problems. But they are all solvable. And (judging by the results already achieved) they will certainly be resolved.

                  "It's a pity only to live in this wonderful time, neither me nor you."
                  Well come on me. The main thing that the children and grandchildren lived, lived. But did not exist. Oh, I wanted to touch on the education system and what has been done with it in the last 5 years. But you again say that I am whining))))))) Okay, at the end of the day it goes beyond the scope of this topic ....
                8. Ivan_Ivanov
                  Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 52
                  +3
                  There are no questions about the education system. Firewood was broken - my mother was in trouble ... And this was done deliberately.

                  You see, state power - it is not homogeneous. There is a clan of statesmen (first of all, security officials and businesses affiliated with them), their goal is their own survival and prosperity, which are not possible without a strong, stable state with happy citizens. But their possibilities are not unlimited. There are clans created by the West. Their goal is to destroy Russia. So there is a struggle. The statesmen’s resources are not unlimited, they can rely only on domestic Russian resources. The West is very strong and at the hands of its agents of influence in many structures, at the hands of local clans subordinate to them, fights with the statists, destroys Russia. Since the resources of statesmen are very limited, they cannot solve all issues in all areas. They solve them in the most basic, most vital in turn. They ended the war in Chkchne, did not allow the collapse of Russia, drove out and imprisoned the most ardent agent oligarchs, took control of the army, the police (although not to the end), adjusted the receipt of funds in the budget, military salaries, state employees, pensions, and social assistance payments. It comes to education, and to factories, and to everything else. It is impossible to solve all problems at once in conditions of limited resources. First of all, personnel and financial, and leverage.

                  The battle for Russia continues. And the statists gain one small victory after another. And the final victory is not so far away.
                9. yehat
                  yehat 15 January 2014 16: 00
                  +1
                  I'm afraid farther than it sounds.
                  Under normal conditions, it is not the Pepsi generation that needs to be raised. Then it will be the final victory. Far from that.
                10. Ivan_Ivanov
                  Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 16: 07
                  0
                  Look how Russia defended Syria, how Ukraine defended.
                  See how wealth has really grown since the 90s. Created TS. Europe is in crisis, America is in crisis. Perhaps even Stalingrad has already been completed, but the Kursk Bulge has not yet been (figuratively speaking)
              2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Shur
        Shur 17 January 2014 00: 11
        0
        However, labor productivity did not fall there. First, don't confuse their situation with ours. Secondly, do you know what is the cost of production in Europe? Say, high-tech equipment, tools? Low, extremely !!! All that sits in the price is social load and a decent salary. They don't save on people there. Let the factories be closed, let there be unemployment and what the capitalist is doing is he modernizes production, fires 10 people, installs a high-tech processing center (sometimes replacing the shop) and 1-2 operators. Yes, because of the global machinations of Western speculators and swindlers, their real sector is in some out, but not critical. They are now rushing into the economy of a new technological order, and the rest will be shoved into Asia and other Latin America. Perhaps this situation plays into their hands, there are reasons for dismissals. Yes, someone will be able to, but someone will not be destiny. Why isn't it Italy and the Czech Republic? China is going out of its way to innovate. They are tired of all the "sewing sneakers" and almost do not sew. They also want progress. Here, on the contrary, they opened up, just go for what was closed in France :)
  • yehat
    yehat 15 January 2014 13: 09
    +3
    uh, nooo!
    "select a country" means literally running your tail between your legs wherever it is more convenient. Why should we flee our country?
    We must force the government to act, taking into account our interests, and not the interests of a dozen clans of thieves.
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 13: 25
      +1
      Here I am about the same.
    2. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 13: 43
      0
      and you are sufficiently knowledgeable in domestic and foreign policy, in the balance of power, in geopolitics, in questions of the functioning of the state, so that you can determine what takes into account your interests and what does not?

      You can’t even just compare the standard of living 10 years ago and now, the standard of living in Russia and in surrounding countries? You cannot see the world around you objectively and unequivocally take the side of anti-Russian agents of influence, take the side of the liberals - blasphemy of your country ...
      1. yehat
        yehat 15 January 2014 13: 51
        +1
        even the KGB in the USSR was not 100% aware.
        As for the assessment of what is happening, the people see very simple steps. Constant significant inflation is beneficial to the "bourgeoisie" and constantly impoverishes, makes ordinary people dependent. We need to reduce it. Tired of eating GMOs and cheap substitutes - you need to recreate agriculture. Meager pensions got sick - measures are also needed. Etc. Most of the questions have simple answers.
        You don't have to be very smart here. And complex technical and technological issues need to be resolved by the "executive power", and not by the ice cream saleswoman.
        1. Ivan_Ivanov
          Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 14: 01
          +1
          Constant significant inflation

          Are you stuck in the 90s?

          constantly impoverished, makes ordinary people dependent

          Russia takes the 3-th place in the world in sales of new cars. Slowly but constantly increasing the real purchasing power of salaries and pensions. And so on and so forth ... But you don’t need it? .. You do not need objective data. But the lies, nagging and dissatisfaction of the liberal media warm your soul? Are you a strong Russian man, or a limp hamster?
          1. yehat
            yehat 15 January 2014 14: 28
            0
            objective data is idiocy in the process of growing sales of cars for which there are no parking lots, no roads, or even normal fuel. The old-fashioned idea that everyone should have a car, not everyone likes it new and "cool".
            Ask a foreigner - is it normal for 2 years to work only on a car, giving everything away? Most will call it idiocy
            and it’s better to buy the old Trabant for the cost of a couple of dinners and drive until they come across a more convenient option, saving money on what they call the freedom of choice.

            and about inflation ... real inflation is at 16-25% per year
            in five years, any savings simply catastrophically shrink.
            This is called: economic KABALA. In the West, they are struggling very hard because they understand what this means. A hungry powerless person will vote for anything if only a piece of bread is put in. It no longer fights for a fair distribution of income and does not even think about it. So they vote for edro ...
            1. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 14: 41
              0
              I repeat to you.

              Stop whining. Your dissatisfaction, your views, your eternal resentment - is the result of anti-Russian propaganda by the grant media. Find the courage to admit it! You are a Russian person ...
              (or not?)


              Previously, you were unhappy that we (you) have cars per capita several times smaller than in Europe and the sales are scanty. Now you are unhappy that there are a lot of cars.

              Yes, you are simply forever dissatisfied with everyone ... And you do not care that people really began to live better, that the standard of living is much higher than in most European countries (I'm not talking about Ukraine and Central Asia), that the standard of living, real wages and pensions in relation to prices has grown significantly over the past 10 years, that in Russia one of the lowest unemployment rates in the WORLD, you are still unhappy ... Mind is incomprehensible ...
            2. yehat
              yehat 15 January 2014 15: 03
              +2
              people began to live better? Did I understand you correctly?

              1. unemployment. Where did you get the info that everything is fine?
              Entire regions on subsidies - and not only Chechnya, for example, some regions near Moscow. The share of work with a meager salary is also large - a huge number of people work with a salary of 5-20 tr, for which it is impossible to live normally. Of course, on average, with Deripaska it turns out very much nothing, but this is cunning!
              If you remove from the statistics all the tricks and this pseudo-work, then
              the picture will be far from the best. In reality, people who work in one job no more than 8 hours a day and have enough for officially (!) Recognized normal family income - no more than a third of the working population. The rest are simply poverty or extreme poverty in general. As for me, I just have reason to be happy. But I see that not everyone has that far.
              2. Discontent. What is it expressed in? The fact that now in the Russian Federation a person is not protected by the law (for example, employers try to avoid liability as much as possible under the labor code), the police do not protect (now they are more a threat), the insurance does not protect (try to get the promise!), The government and the chosen one do not protect the deputy - they just lie and do what they want, the economy does not protect my money - inflation stupidly has them for 1/5 a year, and the Federal Service for Supervision of Consumer Rights Protection does not protect - to buy high-quality products, and many high-quality services, is worth a lot of work, time, effort money and nerves, etc. And I pay a lot of taxes from my salary, I do not have a share of the huge income from the sale of resources that belong to everyone. And I want to ask - why such an ass, because you work from morning to evening and give a lot? It’s kind of not quite honest ...
            3. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 15
              +3
              Discontent. What is it expressed in? The fact that now in Russia a person is not protected by the law ...


              Nowhere in the world of man is the law protecting. ANYWHERE.

              You can only talk about the level of protection. And in Russia he is one of the highest. Do you know where one of the lowest is? In Japan...

              Where did you get the info that everything is fine?

              And where did I say that EVERYTHING is good and no problem ??? If you have run out of arguments, do not attribute to me what I did not say and did not even mean. This is not a worthy man of mankind.
            4. yehat
              yehat 15 January 2014 15: 22
              0
              in Japan one of the lowest?
              Incidentally, there social protection is one of the best and not on paper, but in fact, and it is carried out at the level of employers, which simplifies a lot. They do not need additional laws for this. You can refer to the fact that the Japanese are few on vacation, etc., however, if you study their life in detail, you will understand that their current work and life is associated with much less stress than in the Russian Federation.
              or do you appeal to the protection of parasites and bandits?
            5. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 35
              +1
              Sorry, but could you use objective, or at least different sources about life in Japan?

              Not a single court of people against industrial enterprises regarding compensation for health damage from major industrial accidents with numerous injuries has been won. The victims were not reimbursed, except for the payment of a small insurance, which practically did not cover anything. Moreover, those who sued were themselves accused of libel and were either fined or imprisoned.

              Industrial discipline is incomparable even with our illustrative military units of the times of the USSR.

              Corruption is incredible. It is masked by the fact that after retirement, the official gets a job in the concern, whose interests he lobbied and did nothing there, received a huge salary.

              The people there are as bonded, as rather (but not critical) expensive means of production. And the attitude towards them is appropriate.
            6. yehat
              yehat 15 January 2014 15: 49
              -2
              http://comments.ua/world/244523-operator-fukusimi1-nachal.html
              Fukushima.
              "The Japanese government may need to spend over 10 trillion yen in emergency budgets for disaster relief and recovery."
              affected 15 thousand officially.
              divide 10 trillion by 15 thousand
              are these insufficient payments?

              with regard to discipline, it must be understood that Japan is a country of rules. There ALL life by the rules. And production is the mirror of their life. But there are pluses in this hemorrhoids, I will not list them.
            7. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 15: 59
              +2
              Read carefully:

              "To the Japanese government, may need to spend may need to spend over 10 trillion yen from emergency budgets to disaster relief and recovery. "

              It may be necessary, or perhaps not ... But this is a global accident. And how many serious accidents that the mv did not know and did not hear about ...
              Perhaps this is not an accident, but people lived in such conditions. What do you think, the Japanese government reimbursed them something like the Russian government to people after the flood?
            8. yehat
              yehat 15 January 2014 16: 04
              0
              claims against capitalists are everywhere an acute question.
              however, there is a category of responsibility that the Japanese assume a priori without any reservations.
              Otherwise, the company will lose face, and with it the whole business. Naturally, they are not philanthropists and do not satisfy all claims, but with this they are in most simple cases much better than in the Russian Federation. For example, my employers falsified documents three times so that I could not even file a lawsuit theoretically. In Japan, such an act is a very big risk.
            9. Ivan_Ivanov
              Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 16: 14
              +1
              There is no need for this. The court there is always on the side of the state and the employer.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. yehat
            yehat 15 January 2014 16: 06
            0
            we have the same thing in Chita, Norilsk, Krasnoyarsk and a number of cities.
          4. The comment was deleted.
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      3. klimpopov
        klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 50
        0
        That is, only your sources are objective. By the way, what kind of sources?
      4. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 16: 03
        -1
        Sorry, but I won’t rummage through the Internet. Long time already read it. If you wish, you can find it yourself.

        And about the housing issue in Japan - too ...
      5. klimpopov
        klimpopov 15 January 2014 16: 12
        0
        Well, clear, a reference to Google. Then do not poke others with the nsom in the sources, this is not correct.
      6. Ivan_Ivanov
        Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 16: 23
        -1
        I am not interested in what are your sources and politeness and unwillingness to strain your interlocutor. You do not believe the information I have provided?

        Forward! Refute ...

        This is where the argument goes, right?
      7. klimpopov
        klimpopov 15 January 2014 16: 34
        0
        My main source in this topic is my views and what surrounds me. My stats? Yes, I’ll call my friends and ask if the salary has increased or not - I have different people as friends. How many people will dial 30 (friends of acquaintances), it will work out quite correctly.))))
        I don’t see the information you just provided - the usual set of cliches and statements .. You simply say that life has become better - I refuted this three times ... With specific examples. At the same time, you constantly refer to some mythical sources on the Internet, which "I will find if I wish."
        In turn, I can also refer to certain sources and send you to Google. You wrote term papers / diplomas? Remember how things were with the links? That's about the same thing and a civilized dispute, and not sending it to a search engine. I asked the source, well, no, no, no ... Your right.
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  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 14: 33
    0
    Russia takes the 3-th place in the world in sales of new cars. Slowly but constantly increasing the real purchasing power of salaries and pensions. And so on and so forth ... But you don’t need it? .. You do not need objective data. But the lies, nagging and dissatisfaction of the liberal media warm your soul? Are you a strong Russian man, or a limp hamster?

    My salary for three years has not increased, gasoline has risen in price to say how much?
    My father in the 1998 year received if the relocation is TWO times more (I'm serious). My mother had a small business with which we said goodbye in the 2005 year.
    Russia takes the 3-th place in the world in sales of new cars. Slowly but constantly increasing the real purchasing power of salaries and pensions. And so on and so forth ... But you don’t need it? .. You do not need objective data. But the lies, nagging and dissatisfaction of the liberal media warm your soul? Are you a strong Russian man, or a limp hamster?

    Where did you see this? How can you judge a country without living in it? My income increases due to two jobs (more precisely, one job and two part-time jobs) - it still turns out not to get into loans.
    Russia takes the 3-th place in the world in sales of new cars.

    Yes, at least the first. Take away the loan and what place will be? Here is the same.
    is the lie, nagging and dissatisfaction of the liberal media warm your soul? Are you a strong Russian man, or a limp hamster?

    No stamps needed! About hamsters and the like, do not read the agitation (look where I am and where the hamsters are in the profile, you can handle the map). I’m not saying that everything is bad, I sincerely rejoice at the new units of military equipment, I sincerely worry about Ukraine, but it’s not necessary to conceal the problems, but there are a lot of them and they need to be solved! Do not adopt populist laws and take very definite steps! These steps are known! My say everything!
    1. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 14: 46
      -2
      My salary for three years has not increased


      And in the rest of the world, salaries have declined. And significantly. And gasoline went up even more.

      Stop whining, miserable ...

      Take away the loan and what place will be?

      wassat no other arguments left? Well, offer to remove loans in other countries ... But let’s know what we’ll do? ... Let's remove the nuclear industry with the oil industry ... But what? The same idiotic argument ...
    2. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 06
      +1
      Let's remove the nuclear industry with the oil industry ... But what? The same idiotic argument ...

      What is he idiotic? Expand. How, for example, car sales can talk about the real level of income of the population? How are sales growing?
      By the way, compared with the 1860 year, the industry grew scary to even say how much.
      Voooot on the person go. Exhale.
      Stop whining, miserable ...

      Again on the individual.

      Stop stamping and talking. Your unwillingness to see and accept the situation says a lot about you.
      Let's compare loan rates? In Europe and with us? BUT ? Well, let's.
      And in the rest of the world, salaries have declined. And significantly. And gasoline went up even more.

      Verbally. Again, an increase in gas prices, I admit well, for example, in Germany. But not the country's largest oil exporter. Do you know why we have expensive gasoline? We have oil refineries on our fingers, so we buy gas by selling oil. Well, a lot of examples.
    3. RBLip
      RBLip 15 January 2014 16: 52
      +2
      klimpopov
      Ivan_Ivanov
      Gentlemen, doesn’t it seem to you that one of you is talking about warm and the other about red? You, sorry, are deaf and blind. but, most interestingly, Klim’s point of view on many things is much closer to me personally. Yes, things are going uphill in Russia internationally. but at exactly the same speed, things inside the country are rolling down. distortions are evident. and we need a fleet. as strong as possible. oligarchs and bureaucrats on the soap :)))))
    4. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 17: 00
      +2
      Gentlemen, doesn’t it seem to you that one of you is talking about warm and the other about red?

      From the second message, such a feeling. But since it rolled - then do not stop))))
      Tovarisch says that he can see against the backdrop of living in Ukraine, I am talking about how the periphery lives in Russia.
    5. Rblipetsk
      Rblipetsk 15 January 2014 21: 40
      0
      Quote: klimpopov
      But since it has rolled, then there is no stopping it.

      Klim, why? let him come to me in Lipetsk for half a year, pay the utility bills, take the child to school (a separate topic), get sick a little. then you can talk with him on equal terms.
  • dm98
    dm98 15 January 2014 17: 56
    +1
    Quote: klimpopov
    Do you know why we have expensive gasoline? We have oil refineries on our fingers, so we buy gas by selling oil. Well, a lot of examples.

    In my opinion a little bit wrong!
    Gasoline is expensive because here the state cuts coupons, well, and aligarchs! What do you want? cheap gasoline and pensions and atomic cruisers? I think the situation with gas prices is not straightforward, and in many ways it can be explained! but if she’s like that because she needs to build this damn cruiser and pay a pension to her neighbor’s grandmother, then I won’t be indignant!

    Import benz (well, not counting Belarusian) was 5-10 years ago, now it is practically gone! On the contrary, we export it
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 18: 08
    0
    If on business and not in your pocket, yours is for!
  • Shur
    Shur 17 January 2014 00: 28
    0
    Vanya, he's good, but what can you take from him? He didn’t even think that “the whole world” was too much for his presentation by 1st Vanya Ivanov. It is easier to communicate with such a person in relation to him. Maybe he began to live very well? We must be happy for the person. He really didn't take into account that:
    "the whole world" is divided into 1 st, 2 nd and 3 rd, and somewhere in the 4th. So what is he talking about?
    in Russia, the population in comparison with the countries of Western Europe, etc. practically does not possess in the mass significant accumulations and property.
    The reasoning is good, but did not want to eat less.
    Vanya, well done, keep it up, you still need a lot of optimism (judging by your flag).
  • yehat
    yehat 15 January 2014 15: 33
    +1
    Quote: Ivan_Ivanov


    And in the rest of the world, salaries have declined. And significantly. And gasoline went up even more.

    Well, it’s necessary, but in China, which is not a full part of the speculative economy of the West, salaries have increased, and gasoline has fallen in price. The same (in terms of salary) in South Korea. Same thing in Taiwan. The same thing in Vietnam. In Japan, it would be the same if not for a series of circumstances such as Fukushima.
    You have been brainwashed with "democratic" economic models and abstract values ​​based on them, which are considered incorrect even in the West, as well as many in Ukraine, by the way. I have 2 education in economics, I know what I'm talking about.
  • Ivan_Ivanov
    Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 16: 17
    -1
    But in Europe and America is not so.
    In China, too, not everything is going smoothly. There are even no pensions.

    I won’t say anything about Taiwan.

    Well, of course, in the world there are separate isolated countries where salaries could increase ... However, the indicators are good or bad. Russia is far ahead of most countries and is at the top of the list.
  • vadson
    vadson 16 January 2014 00: 18
    0
    China has pensions, those who worked for the state
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  • dm98
    dm98 15 January 2014 16: 18
    -1
    Quote: klimpopov
    My salary for three years has not increased

    This is most likely an hour!
    I don’t want to blame you, but if there is a desire to work, then actually the salary has grown over the past three years, and not only in St. Petersburg! Moreover, pensions have also grown.
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 16: 39
    +1
    Mdaaaaa? !!! And we have not grown in the factory)))))))
    My income has increased but my salary has not increased.
    Again, even many such special cases. In the city with a population of 130 thousand
    Yes, I will change the job. I have a very specific proposal, but this is MSC. Sadly, you have to go. At the same time, they would like me to stay at the plant but cannot materially interest.
    My grandmother's pension increased by 928 rubles - I specifically phoned. (honey worker, 53 experience of the year) ... Actually, of course, she has grown))))))))) C'mon, thanks for being paid !!! Well, for the fact that s / n is also paid thanks! Low bow!
    Oh well.
    Apparently I'm fighting a mill))))
    They say one thing to me and we have a completely different ...
  • Ivan_Ivanov
    Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 17: 07
    -1
    Come visit us, in Ukraine. There will be something to compare. Or go to the Baltic states, or to Bulgaria, Romania, even Spain ...

    The salary doesn’t suit him ... Grandmother raised his pension by only 900 r ...

    Fuck ... no words ...


    We have no work at all. Dismissals are widespread, factories are not something that can close - they really just closed. Retirement is delayed for the elderly. Payments per child. And he has a choice of work, you can go to another city with an increase in salary. And he still turns his nose! And he is still unhappy !!!! wassat

    Do not anger God ... In Spain, actually exceeded 25%, not that with a raise in salary to another city!

    True, do not anger God ...
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 17: 17
    +1
    And he still turns his nose! And he is still unhappy !!!! wassat

    Yeah, and in Zimbabwe there’s not enough drinking water. Compare with India and Pakistan, or Afghanistan. So you are riding chocolate in comparison with them!
    What did you remember God? I have the opportunity - because I studied (twice) at the institute and not for money, because I still go to courses a lot and study remotely (here already for money and not sour) because there are some prospects. Ultimately, only knowledge can and should be invested.
    But the majority do not have such an opportunity! There is work - a lot of work in shopping malls and the like in cell phone stores, but are you serious? Who is stopping you from going to the same MSC? Or to us? Do you know how yours speak here? "the same horseradish only from the side" - they have something to compare with ...

    I’ll leave the factory, my dad will retire, Kolya, Vasya and everyone else, what will happen with the production of mineral fertilizers? The city was created under this plant, educational institutions and so on, here you can’t hire Gaster from Wed. Asia ... By the way, do you think that the work of my enterprise is manna from heaven? heh - heh)))))
    View of the native plant from a neighboring nine-story building))))))
    Well, for clarity. Well, not all got into the frame.
  • wk-083
    wk-083 16 January 2014 08: 10
    +1
    Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
    We have no work at all. Dismissals are widespread, factories are not something that can close - they really just closed. Retirement is delayed for the elderly. Payments per child.

    Stop whining a jerk! Go to work!
  • dm98
    dm98 15 January 2014 17: 40
    0
    Quote: klimpopov
    My income has increased but my salary has not increased.

    I understand that income has grown because you earn?
    my salary for 3 years in nominal terms increased by 40%, although partially due to advanced training. Colleagues have about 15% each year. Of course, I understand that the purchasing power of the ruble has become lower .... but not for all groups of goods, for example, for cars, the price has not increased much.



    Quote: klimpopov
    In the city with a population of 130 thousand


    here I agree, the smaller the city, the less competition in terms of more difficult to find work. But even in my historical homeland (the city of 20 thousand people, 3 large enterprises), the salary grew. And the cops and the military there now generally earn above average, and moreover, I think enough, the junior police lieutenant is about 50-60 thousand.



    Quote: klimpopov
    My grandmother's pension increased by 928 rubles


    I don’t know what to say here! parents themselves are pensioners
    in 2010, the pension was about 9 thousand rubles, now about 15! Moreover, my father was a carrier (40 years of experience), mother, as it is now fashionable to say office plankton (experience is also about 40 years)

    Quote: klimpopov
    Apparently I'm fighting a mill))))
    They say one thing to me and we have a completely different ...



    No, why are you fighting and why with the mill? I understand very well that the picture I outlined is from the strength of 60% of settlements and cities, there are many so-called single-industry towns, the situation there is probably much worse.
    And so ....... my classmate argues about how you work at the factory as a designer for about 15 years, I have never changed work, but apparently the designer is mediocre ... it’s difficult in general to him .... don’t take at your own expense!
    Or here’s a father-in-law, for example, (almost 60 years old) a cool businessman by the standards of the 90s, five years ago the business ordered him to live long .... now he is sitting guard ... because of course it’s difficult to get a job at his age (this is by the way a bigger minus )
  • Ivan_Ivanov
    Ivan_Ivanov 15 January 2014 17: 52
    0
    Thank you.

    I absolutely do not mean that there are no problems in Russia. Of course there is. There is much to improve the situation.

    But to me, being in Ukraine it is sickening and ridiculous to listen to his complaints and discontent.
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 18: 38
    0
    Yes damn what complaints? What are you speaking about?)))))
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 17: 53
    0
    I’ll unsubscribe later, things have appeared. I agree in many ways. Military yes, noticed! And this is a good sign.
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  • yehat
    yehat 15 January 2014 13: 09
    0
    uh, nooo!
    "select a country" means literally running your tail between your legs wherever it is more convenient. Why should we flee our country?
    We must force the government to act, taking into account our interests, and not the interests of a dozen clans of thieves.
  • klimpopov
    klimpopov 15 January 2014 11: 56
    +2
    And about the blame tries ... So I would have gone to the Pomordas ...
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 15 January 2014 12: 01
    +3
    Quote: klimpopov
    Explain to me wretched. Why Russia will not pull the ocean fleet?

    A strong and wealthy Russia controlled by a government controlled by the people will be able to. The current wretched no. A thief cannot create anything, even if he looks beautiful and wise, he is just a parasite. The fact that they could not steal is not enough not only for the fleet, but also for the normal maintenance of the country's vital functions. I was recently in Ulan-Ude, they still drown there with firewood! In the town! In the capital of the republic! In the 21 century! Can you explain why it is possible to draw a gas pipeline from Siberia to Ukraine, Eastern and Western Europe, but not in Ulan-Ude, although the latter is ten times closer to the fields? Below, a comrade with the flag of Ukraine writes:
    And you excuse me for the emotional response.
    Do not like Russia? Get out ...
    And the way the woman is bazaar is not so, and then he was stolen from him, and they didn’t finish it ...

    It’s not bad for him, he probably lives on Russian gas, that he gives such advice ...
    You can not answer, the answer is already clear, we can do with firewood, but at the same time without a fleet, without a normal education, without normal medical care, without much else ... according to those who decided that it is irreplaceable ...
    Quote: klimpopov
    But it is unprofitable only for temporary workers, the so-called effective managers who think today how to eat and sleep, if necessary, dump a thread over a hill (at best).

    You are mistaken, these are not temporary workers, they have come seriously and for a long time ...
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 22
      0
      It’s not bad for him, he probably lives on Russian gas, that he gives such advice ...
      You can not answer, the answer is already clear, we can do with firewood, but at the same time without a fleet, without a normal education, without normal medical care, without much else ... according to those who decided that it is irreplaceable ...

      I thought so too. But in my opinion the problem is in age.
      You are mistaken, these are not temporary workers, they have come seriously and for a long time ...

      In the sense of the body, they change periodically - some replace the others ...

      A strong and wealthy Russia controlled by a government controlled by the people will be able to. The current wretched no. A thief cannot create anything, even if he looks beautiful and wise, he is just a parasite. The fact that they could not steal is not enough not only for the fleet, but also for the normal maintenance of the country's vital functions. I was recently in Ulan-Ude, they still drown there with firewood! In the town! In the capital of the republic! In the 21 century! Can you explain why it is possible to draw a gas pipeline from Siberia to Ukraine, Eastern and Western Europe, but not in Ulan-Ude, although the latter is ten times closer to the fields? Below, a comrade with the flag of Ukraine writes:

      ...
      recently been in Ulan-Ude,

      Krasnodar Territory, Pear Farm, no gas ... And this is just one example ...
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 15 January 2014 12: 55
        +1
        Quote: klimpopov
        Krasnodar Territory, Pear Farm, no gas ... And this is just one example ...

        I apologize to everyone for offtopic ...
        It’s at least warm there, at -30 Celsius in any city where coal and wood are drowned when there is no wind or weak breathing is impossible, like the contrast of Abakan. In the summer, a beautiful flowering city, everything is green, the cleanest air ... In winter it’s just a murderer, in the evening you can’t see anything, the lighting weakly breaks through the thick smog ...
        Quote: klimpopov
        In the sense of the body, they change periodically - some replace the others ...

        Yeah, among themselves, while the periods each time more and more ... I am waiting for the repetition of the race on the coffins ...
    2. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 13: 59
      +1
      I call them unprincipled careerists.
      They were under Stalin. But if they were completely buried, then the career ended, so they had to take into account.
      Such as Serdyukov, in 38-45 he would have lived after the resignation of no more than 2 weeks. Would put to the wall without much red tape. Therefore, suicides among perpetrators were popular at that time - for example, aviation general Kopets shot himself after the events of June 22, 41 in Ukraine, because
      he didn’t do anything, didn’t follow direct orders, so that it would turn out differently and know that they won’t leave it like that.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 15 January 2014 17: 09
        0
        Quote: yehat
        I call them unprincipled careerists.
        They were under Stalin. But if they were completely buried, then the career ended, so they had to take into account.

        They were and always will be. The democratic management of the state in the Western sense of the term allows not to weed out such scum (this is an erroneous opinion), and control over them and regular rotation does not allow them to grow into power, damaging the state. Such is the nature of man, for the sake of personal wealth they prefer not to plow from morning to evening, but to crawl into managerial structures, these places beckon them like honey. All over the world they understand this, it is very difficult to put up barriers, but the society’s control over them forces scumbags to do what they categorically dislike, namely to work effectively. Regular rotation through the elections does not allow us to build the scheme of mutual responsibility so familiar to us.
  • Delta
    Delta 15 January 2014 12: 23
    0
    Quote: klimpopov
    The oligarchs have enough money for the fleet.


    But will they share?)))) or suggest how in the 17th everything is taken away and divided?
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 47
      0
      or suggest how to take and share everything in 17?

      Well there are ways. Although of course I have no illusions ...
  • old rocket man
    old rocket man 15 January 2014 11: 22
    0
    Quote: Nayhas
    Surround comrades / gentlemen! Russia will not pull even the third and fourth! Such is the plan for Russia that it is necessary to create a complete set for each fleet, and ships and a repair base


    So what? Now fold the paws to the top and do nothing?
    After all, there is money, the so-called reserve fund. The main hitch is where to buy something sensible on it, and most importantly, how to make it sell itself.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 15 January 2014 12: 07
      +1
      Quote: Old Rocketman
      So what? Now fold the paws to the top and do nothing?
      After all, there is money, the so-called reserve fund. The main hitch is where to buy something sensible on it, and most importantly, how to make it sell itself.

      And nothing depends on us. They will decide to place and place a reserve fund in US bonds, they will want to spend it on the railroad along the northern coast, they will want to spend it on the Math Olympiad in Neryungri ... Why do you think that those who own these funds will want to spend it on the fleet?
  • gispanec
    gispanec 15 January 2014 11: 34
    +1
    Quote: Nayhas
    take all the money from social programs, do not pay all civil servants and pensioners (transfer them to coupons), increase taxes by several times and more ...

    stupidity fence ... sheer stupidity, it is enough to revise the law, so to speak, on budget theft and introduce a criminal offense for disrupting state orders .... we have money like manure on the best farm, oil and gas are continuously flowing in megabarrels, the rate for this raw material is very high, we are saving the economies of 6 countries ..... we are lending to SaShu ... the whole stub fund is there, our scourge is not in the absence of dough (there is a lot of it), but in its legal "mastering" + the existing laying of oligaphrens (oligarchs) is spinning our loot so it keeps there .... more than half of our oh thought must be changed ...% so by 95 and the government by 40% and the president to give a micro-term to restore order in the country .... although this is all fantastic ...
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 15 January 2014 12: 09
      +5
      Quote: gispanec
      foolishness ... foolishness

      How could I try to clear sarcasm, but you didn’t catch it ...
      Quote: gispanec
      it’s enough to revise the law about theft of the budget and introduce a criminal offense for disrupting government orders ....

      You are naive to the impossibility ... What is the use of anti-theft laws if thieves observe them?
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 22
        0
        How could I try to clear sarcasm, but you didn’t catch it ...

        Really very veiled, I also did not catch))))))
        1. Nayhas
          Nayhas 15 January 2014 12: 49
          +1
          Quote: klimpopov
          Really very veiled, I also did not catch))))))

          Forgive me for misleading, I re-read it myself and saw that it turned out quite categorically ...
          1. klimpopov
            klimpopov 15 January 2014 12: 52
            0
            I really thought that you think so))))
            1. yehat
              yehat 15 January 2014 14: 07
              +1
              there is a curious way to understand how much money the state has.
              there are official reports on energy supplies.
              There is a fixed tax per unit.
              It is known that the share of these revenues in state revenues is from one third to half of the budget.
              Even rough estimates for one oil make it clear that the government has the money to send the whole country to retirement.
              1. klimpopov
                klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 26
                0
                Well, at least the fleet is enough ... If you do not steal ...
                1. yehat
                  yehat 15 January 2014 15: 44
                  0
                  Unfortunately, the fleet never has enough money. These are terribly expensive pieces of iron. For example, in economically prosperous years, before 1914, Russia gave up almost the entire military budget for modernization over the course of 5 years to the construction of only 8 battleships + several smaller ships, and then there were loans. At the same time, the army became weak and this affected already by the year 15.
                  Even Americans with an effort put aircraft carriers into operation, having the resources of the whole world. And the question always is what to refuse.
                  Recently, the British put into operation a small submarine, which is several times more expensive than the Soviet-era BOD, and now I plan to make a large series - as many as 7 units by the year 20. And fascist Germany built hundreds of submarines. But at the same time they refused to increase the production of armored vehicles. So the fleet will always be the subject of controversy.
                  1. klimpopov
                    klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 52
                    0
                    So here I am not talking about hundreds of aircraft carriers. I’m talking about a modern combat-ready ocean fleet capable of performing any tasks. I’m not saying that riots on 50 pieces need to be riveted ...
                2. yehat
                  yehat 15 January 2014 15: 44
                  0
                  Unfortunately, the fleet never has enough money. These are terribly expensive pieces of iron. For example, in economically prosperous years, before 1914, Russia gave up almost the entire military budget for modernization over the course of 5 years to the construction of only 8 battleships + several smaller ships, and then there were loans. At the same time, the army became weak and this affected already by the year 15.
                  Even Americans with an effort put aircraft carriers into operation, having the resources of the whole world. And the question always is what to refuse.
                  Recently, the British put into operation a small submarine, which is several times more expensive than the Soviet-era BOD, and now I plan to make a large series - as many as 7 units by the year 20. And fascist Germany built hundreds of submarines. But at the same time they refused to increase the production of armored vehicles. So the fleet will always be the subject of controversy.
            2. The comment was deleted.
  • RMRS
    RMRS 15 January 2014 12: 45
    0
    Ala yesterday's article "Why cruisers aren't being built?" It's funny: to cut social services, raise taxes? Dear, everything has long been done according to your scenario, because the costs of preparing the Olympics are approximately $ 50 billion. There is a lot of money! There is something to think about, and there is also the World Cup in football and our trump trait is "corruption" ... We have a lot of money in our country, so there is little sense in where to put it. Therefore, they put it in their pockets) Semyon Slepakov has a good song about this - "The Song of a Russian Official", those interested can get acquainted with this creation on the Internet.
  • Gost
    Gost 15 January 2014 14: 31
    +2
    What do you minus him? am What is wrong? Before you put a minus, justify. And the empty cries of URA only shake the air.
    And about the fleet, I want to say so. We urgently need a fleet which could deliver a crushing blow to the enemy. Be it Washington, Tokyo, London or Paris. Only in this case will we be guaranteed to be protected from the attack of the adversary, since in the realities of the modern global war, nuclear weapons will not be possible. And to counter such giants as the fleet of Georgia and similar nuclear-free countries, we have enough of what we have.
    Yes, updating and modernization is necessary, but not to the detriment of the state, so that the situation of the end of the 20th century does not happen, when in fact there were units of the fleet, and there were no solariums and military officers went to the collective farm for potatoes so that the family would not starve to death. What followed, everyone knows. Construction and modernization must strictly comply with the country's capabilities.

    A small digression from the topic.
    When we all start working during working hours, rather than sitting on forums, we will earn a lot of money for the country, then we will build spacecraft, and the fleet will be intergalactic))) laughing
    1. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 15: 16
      0
      I'm afraid you are reasoning with the stamps of the Cold War.
      Now the danger is not only military, but also different.
      Now the confrontation is imposed on trifles literally everywhere.
      In the subway car, you need to confront the wild mountaineer with a knife, catch a Chinese or Norwegian poacher, wrestle for a deposit in the Arctic, and not give it up, as Medvedev did ...

      Therefore, it is important to have appropriate small forces for countermeasures.
      Including the patrol fleet to counter Japan and Norway, etc. in areas of significant economic interest.
    2. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 15: 16
      0
      I'm afraid you are reasoning with the stamps of the Cold War.
      Now the danger is not only military, but also different.
      Now the confrontation is imposed on trifles literally everywhere.
      In the subway car, you need to confront the wild mountaineer with a knife, catch a Chinese or Norwegian poacher, wrestle for a deposit in the Arctic, and not give it up, as Medvedev did ...

      Therefore, it is important to have appropriate small forces for countermeasures.
      Including the patrol fleet to counter Japan and Norway, etc. in areas of significant economic interest.
    3. RBLip
      RBLip 15 January 2014 16: 43
      0
      Quote: Gost
      A small digression from the topic.
      When we all start working during working hours, rather than sitting on forums, we will earn a lot of money for the country, then we will build spacecraft, and the fleet will be intergalactic)))

      beautiful !!!!!!
      1. vadson
        vadson 16 January 2014 00: 35
        0
        I don’t agree as long as those factories that still operate are registered in offshore and belong to a private foreign and why it is a sin to conceal and our capital will be useless. Well, maybe a hard worker for his work and will receive from 15 to 30 thousand. And no one will pay taxes then what kind of fleet.
        in the west, private capital is effective because it has been developing steadily for decades and even centuries, and we have been snatched and torn from here. Who is hunting for such work ????
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 15 January 2014 11: 08
    +1
    Nevertheless, there must be a real assessment in the general staff of what is needed and what can be built for the fleet. Especially with the advent of Shoigu. Although whether he can keep the military-industrial complex in check is a big question.
    In general, you need to build on the state of the economy, adjusted for real need, and not the need to show off.
  • lotar
    lotar 15 January 2014 11: 10
    0
    In my opinion, we need not the largest fleet, but the most focused on future conflicts. Where small, but modern forces could be done more than the same large forces. Near the time when unmanned and manned systems complemented by each other surface, underwater , air and space nature will perform the same tasks as large formations of naval and land forces deployment. The nature of the wars of the future will be completely different, and what seems to be fantastic at the moment after a while it will become a reality.
    1. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 14: 12
      +1
      First of all, we need not the fleet, but the shipbuilding industry,
      whose activity would not be unprofitable and would be modern.
      An industry that would not be a yoke on the neck of the state, but its pillar.
      Look at the Germans. They build ships in their fleet, but still
      sell around the world and build a lot of civilian ships, make repairs
      and modernization. For them, military orders are only part of the job.
      Now "this" industry in the Russian Federation is the two closed sharages left after the military-industrial complex of the USSR
      and several shipyards that are rarely built and need modernization
      and equipment, and work schemes.
      It is necessary to build destroyers, cruisers, but at the same time dozens of fishing vessels, dry cargo ships, tankers, tugboats, ferries, passenger ships, etc. must be built.
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 15 January 2014 15: 30
        +1
        Yeah, look at the Samsung shipyards. Etozh mom dear. 20 000 people collect a tanker for half a year ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 15 January 2014 11: 20
    0
    Now CFL will be in the foreseeable future in chocolate and will be updated (Dagestan + Tatarstan + 4 IAC (one of the IRAs of project 1241 was recently remade) + 5 IRAs 21631 with UKSK + Serny + Dugongi + auxiliary fleet, everything is new, and to this 5 RCA ( 2 projects 1241, and one R-32 was delivered to the fleet in 2000 and is armed with Mosquitoes, 3 projects 206); 5 AKA (4 pr.1204, 1 pr. 1400M), 7 minesweepers. In 2013, the CFL passed the project 21980 PrDKA "Grachonok" and DKA pr. 11770 "Serna". If everything goes well, then at the beginning of this year 2 more MRKs of project 21631 will be handed over ("Uglich" and "Grad Sviyazhsk" and 2 more "Serny", which passed factory tests, winter we are in Nizhniy Novgorod. Planning within a year one more MRK project 21631 and "Grachonok." RCA R-32 was transferred from the CFL to the BF in the 36th brigade of missile boats.
    The Black Sea Fleet will be substantially renewed by 17, and in general the situation with the country's oldest old fleet will be tolerable. However, we have here: RRC pr. 1164, 1 TFR pr. 01190, diesel-electric submarines pr. 877 "Alrosa", 2 MRK pr. 1239, 2 MRK pr. 1234-1, 7 MPK (6 pr. 1124, 1 pr. 11451 -in repair), 5 RCA pr. 1241, one R-71 modernized, installed anti-ship missiles "Moskit" and air defense missile systems "Kashtan". The SKR project 1135M "Pytlivy" was completely repaired, and by the standards of our ship repair it was repaired very quickly - in about 3-3,5 months, and this is taking into account the fact that the main engines of the SKR (GTE) needed either major repairs or an aggregate replacement ). By the way, the Ladny SKR (1135, not 1135M), which is almost the same type as the "Inquisitive", which was repaired much earlier than its colleague (no later than 26.06.2013/1969/21631), should be commissioned no earlier than the end of this summer. Now, in addition to "Sharp-witted" (built in XNUMX, which will soon complete its, according to rumors, the last BS), another TFR is on the move. Plus, according to some information, the sixth MRK of project XNUMX will go to the Black Sea Fleet.
    The upgraded R-60 with the Kashtan air defense missile system went last year in a BOD convoy to the Mediterranean Sea, as part of the Syrian Express. The Black Sea Fleet last year received the Project 21980 Grachonok PrDKA.
    The Baltic Fleet is already quite good - the flagship destroyer Neustrashimy went to exercises this year, the TFR project 11540 Wise and Undaunted keep the ocean watch, the core of corvettes 20380 (already 3, and soon 4) Baltic and began to sail across Europe. The situation is already bearable. Last year, the fleet received a project 20380 corvette "Boyky", and at the beginning of this year, the "Stoyky", which has already been put to sea for testing, should be commissioned. In addition, the RCA R-32 with Mosquitoes was transferred to the BF with the CFL,
    Northern Fleet - the same 22350, 20385 and so on are being built there, and this is the strongest fleet today, moreover, the age is quite small, the same Shepherd of 1999, Kulakov generally count 2010, because there the cars were changed. Yes, plus the Project 677 Saint Petersburg submarine, which was transferred from the BF for testing and the Kaluga diesel-electric submarine, repaired by Zvezdochka, and another repaired Project 949A Smolensk SSGN. Plus the project 885 Ash "Severodvinsk" handed over to the MPLATRK.
    All that remains is the Pacific Fleet with the Varyag and 4 BODs that do not leave the ocean (the Tributs is already being repaired), and the Project 956 Bystry destroyer, which is dangerous to run far. And if other fleets are actively updating or planning to update, then only corvettes are being built for the Pacific Fleet (we will take the UDC outside the brackets for now), and those with a creak at the local shipyard. True, the Pacific Fleet this year received the "Alexander Nevsky" project 955 and 2 PrDKA project 21980 "Grachonok".
    Well, most importantly, the whole year the fleet did not stand at the pier, it actively went to sea. One "Syrian Express" is worth it. And even now, two of our most powerful ships are at sea, Kuzya and Peter the Great, not counting the Project 1164 Varyag RRC, 3 Project 1155 BODs and 7 BDKs, and we wish them seven feet under the keel!
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 22 January 2014 14: 20
      0
      These are all plans. By 2017, by 2020. Now, on the current weekday, the Russian fleet is nothing. There is no sea aviation. The underwater situation is not even controlled in the near zone. There are no hospital ships. There is no modern rescue vessel to assist submariners no (almost 14 years have passed since the death of the Kursk). And so on. TAVKR Kuznetsov went to combat service escorted by a tugboat. The submarine Alrosa can’t dive. It goes at maximum in small moves, accompanied by a tugboat.
  • Crang
    Crang 15 January 2014 11: 42
    -1
    Author - in the 80s, the Soviet fleet was the first in the world. And behind him is the US fleet. But he was the second in the world before Port Arthur in the 60-70s.
    1. waisson
      waisson 15 January 2014 11: 50
      0
      yes there were times there was something to remember was something to be proud of
    2. patsantre
      patsantre 15 January 2014 13: 21
      0
      The first in the world for what?
  • Docklishin
    Docklishin 15 January 2014 12: 21
    +1
    I'll make a reservation right away - I'm from the category of amateurs and "lured" into the topic. It seems to me that until recently there was a question - is the fleet needed at all. Judging by the way they treated him in the 90s, the fleet was rather unnecessary. Therefore, the FIRST positive moment - finally decided - to be a fleet. Quantitative and qualitative composition .... of course, I would like to have more quality units and the more, the better. However, as they say, what are rich. At present, IN GENERAL, we will not be able to compete with the NATO bloc in general and the United States in particular in the ocean. But based on the tasks set for the next 10 years, we must focus on the ARCTIC direction (oil, gas and the largest icebreaker fleet in the world - I’m just surprised) and the protection of coastal economic zones. It's money and business protection ... and again money. And where there is money, there is more construction of new ships, jobs, social services, etc. etc. Example - The Far East alone is worth something. This is the SECOND positive moment - it seems that the people in the government are engaged in this, but slowly. And finally, the modernization and adoption of a new concept for the production and construction of ships - quality and speed. It seems that the factories are sooooo slowly, but we are modernizing and switching to the modular principle of construction (by the way, the Americans have been riveting their aircraft carriers since the 80s). When the system is worked out to the smallest detail, then we will receive quickly and qualitatively new ships corresponding to the tasks and requests. Ps there is one dream - to return to the economic field Ukraine with its, albeit collapsed, but still remaining shipbuilding capacities. Then things will work out. And the East will no longer have any thoughts with whom to be (I'm talking about the EU and Co.). Pss I wonder if Ukraine, like we didn’t pissed away everything in due time, what PLACE in the world was occupied by the FLEET of this fraternal country. Yours faithfully hi
  • Docklishin
    Docklishin 15 January 2014 12: 24
    0
    ... and whoever knows knows, well, I just can’t find the logic in any way - why the heck the aircraft carriers gave to China, India, and in Ukraine they cut one. What for??? What did you get for this, what are the benefits?
    1. Delta
      Delta 15 January 2014 12: 34
      +1
      What is the logic at the time of big dabber? only one - row, what is possible. So they gave warships for nothing. For the country - zero benefit, in my pocket - enough. And then, remember that period. It’s like when the Bolsheviks just came to power. Also, continuous disarmament was going on, almost the abolition of borders, fraternization with the Germans. Many in the 90s thought that we would not fight with anyone else.
    2. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 13: 02
      0
      at least one benefit is industry employment on a direct topic. Here, any order is important, even if the general contract for the replacement of all the lathes of the American fleet. If the industry receives orders, this means that the fleet has support for shipbuilding plans.
  • gennadi
    gennadi 15 January 2014 12: 38
    +1
    Liked about the noticeable pitch of the "Corsair"
  • Russ69
    Russ69 15 January 2014 12: 46
    +1
    The fact that the hotz of the second fleet, and even the first, is understandable. But let's measure desires with possibilities ...
  • yehat
    yehat 15 January 2014 12: 48
    +1
    what nonsense is the 1st, 2nd or what other place does the fleet have ... what's the difference? even two hundredth !!!
    The fleet is needed to protect specific interests, it is an instrument, the same as pliers.
    Do you have pliers at home? And who has more of them - yours or your neighbor?
    I think the last question showed the whole criticism of comparative analysis.
    a century ago, during the fleet building race before the First World War, different people gave a fairly accurate assessment - which fleet is needed and how to determine it. I recommend reading Tirpitz.
    As for the answers - I believe that it is necessary to significantly strengthen the patrol forces in the areas of trade and fishing, to modernize the fleet’s strike force, and replenish them to the functionality required by the theater of operations and EVERYTHING. nothing else is needed. Yes, let Japan or China build 99999999999999999 aircraft carriers. DO NOT FUCK !!! The fleet is needed for specific, narrow and modest tasks. And he must deal with them perfectly, i.e. rusty troughs with a worn engine or electronics 15 years ago are not needed.
    One of the main tasks of the fleet now is to establish the work of the shipbuilding industry, create a normal industry of allies and, finally, develop a unified fire control system for ships with an open interface for integration into a more serious structure - a squadron, fleet - in this area we are already catastrophically behind. . In general, it is not necessary to pursue quantity, but to improve the quality of technologies used in ships.
    Not to build ships that are morally obsolete just in time for descent due to long-term construction and other things, but to build such that they meet their time.
    1. yehat
      yehat 15 January 2014 13: 12
      +1
      By the way, the Russian fleet had every chance of becoming the first in the world if Russia had pulled at least a year and a half with the entry into the First World War.
      The unfinished battleships of the Izmail class remained on the stocks, the artillery of which was not technologically surpassed even by the battleships of the Second World War, and the Americans simply stole part of the patented technology for the guns of their battleships.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv 15 January 2014 14: 08
    +2
    LLC has not been writing here for a long time.
    We need a fleet that the economy can give at the moment and which we need in geopolitical interests at this historical moment. Now we need to prepare the base for the ships and to blow up the industry so as not to delay.
    And I already wrote earlier that we do not need such a fleet as in the USSR, either in composition or in tasks. Since then the main task of the fleet was to allow the missile carriers to shoot back. Now we are more interested in a universal fleet and a more balanced one.
  • AVV
    AVV 15 January 2014 15: 05
    0
    Quote: Genry
    The fleet must conform to the "stick in the wheel" principle for the rest. Counteraction is cheap and effective. There is no need to chase a place.

    We need to learn how to destroy other people's ships, including aircraft carriers remotely from anywhere in the country !!! When there are satellites and mobile railway complexes, it would be possible !!!
  • berimor
    berimor 15 January 2014 19: 00
    -1
    In the picture, the "corsair" makes a roll, not a pitch (pitch is a change in the flight vector of an aircraft in a vertical plane passing through its longitudinal axis) !!!
  • BOB48
    BOB48 15 January 2014 19: 33
    0
    in order to try to understand something about the fleet - start a motor boat for yourself (if the money allows - a boat, a yacht), and after a year or two, let's discuss!
  • moremansf
    moremansf 15 January 2014 19: 47
    0
    TO BE OR NOT TO BE???
    According to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, if "acceptable competitiveness" is achieved in a ten-year perspective, Russia may take 6-8 place in terms of civil shipbuilding. But so far in this market, Russia occupies only 1,3% in terms of the number of ships, according to the documents of the department. In military shipbuilding, Russia's position is much stronger, the country occupies 12% and 2 place after the United States. OSK itself in terms of output in military shipbuilding takes 7-th place in the world.(Text: NOTES).
    The authorities decided to send 741 million rubles for the reconstruction and modernization of the Severnaya Verf plant, owned by the state shipbuilding holding USC (United Shipbuilding Corporation). The main specialization of Severnaya Verf is military shipbuilding. Within the first stage of modernization, it is planned the construction of the country's largest dry dock (its length will be 400 m, width-70 m.)In it it will be possible to build almost all types of ships and ships. MEAN WILL BE BUILT !!!
    Enterprises with large debts to the state, as well as bankrupt companies and firms in a pre-bankrupt state, will not be able to obtain and renew licenses for work related to weapons, military equipment and ammunition. The Federal Service for Defense Orders (Rosoboronzakaz) has developed appropriate amendments to the rules for issuing licenses. As the first deputy chairman of the State Duma Committee on Industry, President of the League for Assistance to Defense Enterprises Vladimir Gutenev explained to Izvestia, new rules are needed to "cleanse the ranks" of executors of the state defense order. The total amount of its financing up to 2020 is 23 trillion rubles.
    We draw conclusions ... the truth is, as they say, they consider chickens in the fall, but we must believe in the best, the negative over the past years has been enough for everyone !!!
    Quote: leon-iv
    We need a fleet that the economy can give at the moment and which we need in geopolitical interests at this historical moment. Now we need to prepare the base for the ships and to blow up the industry so as not to delay.

    Totally agree !!!
  • Ustian
    Ustian 15 January 2014 21: 04
    -1
    It is not necessary to consider separately: Americans, Japs, paddles ... In the event of a conflict, we will have to confront NATO's combined forces, and we need the FLEET ANYTHING, both in quantity and in quality !!!
    1. Ustian
      Ustian 16 January 2014 00: 27
      0
      what someone put a dash, a man of great intelligence (anonymous), but what about the correlate?
  • I think so
    I think so 15 January 2014 21: 21
    0
    Okak about the "second" fleet, the author of the article argues ... Russia would have stayed at least in the top ten ... and that is unlikely ...
  • Silent
    Silent 15 January 2014 22: 09
    -1
    The article definitely liked. Her plus, but .... What does second place mean? I recall the times of the Russo-Japanese and World War I, when theoretically Russia had a large (and expensive) fleet, and there was practically no way to gather all its forces into a fist. This caused defeat in the first case and complete paralysis and inaction in the second.
    Each person (state, people) must be aware of their capabilities. Due to geographical features, it is more difficult for Russia to maintain an ocean fleet than other great sea powers. For this reason, the fleet has repeatedly brought disappointment to the country, becoming expensive and inefficient and dying not in battle, but in ports.
    Despite this, the fleet needs to be developed, but realistically aware of its strength and not to the detriment of the ground forces.
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 15 January 2014 23: 50
    +1
    Here is the case. If a "big" war begins, then its participants will destroy each other in the very first hour only with land missiles to such a state that it is true that those who survive will deeply care what is going on in the oceans, whether the fleet is coping there or not, who is winning whom. It will be necessary to take a shovel and not even dig graves for the dead, one will not dig for a thousand, but look for a relatively clean place and dig a dugout and urgently prepare firewood, a lot of firewood and think about where to get food and water. And if the war is not nuclear but is being waged with AUG, then I don't even know, there are fantastic books they write about it. There, usually on the eve or at the very beginning, our people invent a super shnyaga and with its help they win everyone. Maybe we can invent something like this, it seems to work in books.
    But as for the numerous cheap peacetime patrol fleet to protect economic interests, here the author is right, there are a lot of such things, the most interesting thing is they will be useful in addition to economic benefit during the war. As you know, during the Second World War, large ships quickly ended, the remains were hidden, and the severity of assisting the coastal flank fell on armored boats, Moscow Region, minesweepers and torpedo boats, that is, on a large and cheap patrol fleet.
  • rocketman
    rocketman 17 January 2014 01: 10
    -1
    First, second, third - what's the difference? Any coastal country needs a fleet sufficient for its goals and objectives. To whom - a mosquito, to whom - an ocean.
  • rubin6286
    rubin6286 17 January 2014 20: 44
    0
    Of course, the Russian fleet is needed. Whether it will be the first in the world or not the first is not important. The main thing is that it can really protect the country from an attack from the sea and not allow it to impede the trading and fishing activities of our vessels carried out in accordance with the provisions of the International of maritime law. It is difficult for me to judge which ships are needed for this, where and how much. It is important that the solution to this problem was not in the hands of thieves, fools, talkers and amateurs, however, like the rest of the tasks facing the country.

    "In a difficult time of trials,
    Fathers took ships to battle
    Fidelity to the flag, courage, courage,
    they helped to get Victory.

    Proud of an enviable fate
    We plow open spaces of blue waters.
    This flag with a blue border
    The sailors are calling for exploits.

    If the sun is overshadowed by smoke,
    As fathers, we will fight again
    Again the flag on the gaffle will fly
    With a hammer, a sickle and a star! "
  • Const
    Const 19 January 2014 10: 10
    0
    A good article, interesting in detail, there is no superfluous. However, the conclusions are not the same. How much can you catch up and overtake? Then the opinions about the combat capabilities of foreign ships are most likely far from the truth. Military secret, you understand. To think about this, how long will it take to transfer a naval unit from the Baltic to the UK, say, to the distance of hitting the main caliber of coastal targets? Days. Aviation without a fleet will not do anything there, the flight time is 1-2 hours. Arrival in the desired square is possible only independently of each other. Already at this stage, serious losses are possible, which must be compensated in advance, i.e. grouping is increasing. But the number of ships is not infinite.
    Another thing is if the group moves all at once, with all its capabilities of electronic warfare, air defense and anti-submarine protection. many are even afraid to approach such a connection.
    My conclusion, perhaps from the category of fairy tales. But this can be achieved by changing the very principle of movement by sea. To make the surface fleet REALLY PURPOSE, and not superficial.