Military Review

To beat or not to beat?

73
To beat or not to beat?After the article "EuroPathur"(" 2000 ", No. 50 (681), 13-19.12.2013) among the many favorable comments I receive from some readers and those who categorically do not accept my thesis about the use of physical violence by law enforcement bodies over our Nazis, calling for the overthrow of legitimate authority . These readers are convinced that restoring order in this way is completely unacceptable in our country and has nothing in common with European values, which, in their opinion, are based solely on humanism.


Police violence, convinced "eurozaschennye" authors, practiced exclusively in the uncivilized countries of the world. Some authors, for example, vladmich from Lutsk, dragangid from Kiev, accused me of a “cynical” approach to defining such a measure of violence against offenders. They also condemned the “inadequacy of the use of force by law enforcement agencies,” which, in their opinion, was when the “Berkut” dispersed the “Maidan children” of Kiev.

It became obvious that the concept of the adequacy of the use of force has a different interpretation in society and is interpreted fairly freely. Especially now, when the "orange" media and the opposition (and many "sovereign" people!) Began to shed crocodile tears over the "innocent victims of the revolution." And reader P. Petrik from Drohobych, who sent me a message with angry Filipikas to the “bloody” “Berkut”, called the beaten-up demonstrators “heroes of the crutches” and even reproached violence.

I will not begin to delve into the legal subtleties of the adequacy or inadequacy of the use of force by our security forces during the dispersal of the Maidan demonstrators, all this is the responsibility of the relevant state bodies. I will cite two cases from my own life that I had to be a direct witness to. They should clarify a lot in the “adequate” issue, especially for that category of our citizens, for whom such concepts as humanism and tolerance in the life of society quite get along with complete permissiveness and anarchy.

The first case is from the distant autumn of 1994 in Kiev, when I had to witness the confrontation between our police and football hooligans. In the Champions League match, Dynamo lost to one of the European teams at the end of the match and at the end of the match, a crowd of outraged football fans not far from the Republican Stadium (now the Olympic) metro began to destroy everything that came its way.

When the atrocities seemed to subside, suddenly young people (200 — 300 people) began to try to beat out the bitterness of their favorite team’s defeat on a ... trolleybus. A crowd of hooligans began to rock the car to knock it to the side, the female driver left the cab for fear and watched what was happening on the street. Police in a megaphone urged the crowd to stop the disgrace, while the police did not take real action to curb the unrest.

The appeal of the police chief to the crowd of football fans was like a tearful paternal request, but not a warning about the responsibility for the ongoing barbarism. A man in the form of a police lieutenant colonel, who was given the authority to establish public order, turned to bullies on a megaphone: “Hloptsi, scream! You’ll watch the trolley bus for a while, and tomorrow you won’t be able to get to the robot. Please, obscenity! ”

While the police’s requests to outraged fans continued, all the windows of the car’s interior were smashed to pieces, the seats were cut by knives, after which the mob riders with a wild squeal scattered in all directions. The militia, in fact, was an extraordinary event and did not take any measures to protect the rule of law and the safety of the city property, thereby encouraging the hooligans to further disgraces.

I remember how, after what had happened, a tired and obviously good-natured lieutenant colonel took off his uniform cap, wiped his forehead with a handkerchief, and withdrew to his official car.

In the second case, football hooliganism, similar to Kiev, I had to observe exactly one year later, but in German Dortmund. The local Borussia lost the German Bundesliga football championship with a big score in the home field of the Berlin Hertha, after which its football fans began to defiantly behave and their behavior in the city became uncontrollable.

I drove through Dortmund that day, and a few blocks from the stadium, the police stopped me. The policeman asked to move aside, while referring to unexpected circumstances that had arisen, which caused not only me, but also other motorists to stop.

On the question of what kind of circumstances, the policeman informed that a heated crowd of local fans was sent here and hooligan excesses were not excluded, which means that football hooligans could be overclocked. He warned that there was nothing to fear, however, he recommended to stay in his own car, assuring that the stop would not be long.

When the crowd of football fans of “Borussia” flushed with beer appeared on the street, to be honest, I was seized with concern. Their number was dozens of times greater than the number of black-armed and armed, what is called “to the teeth” police officers from the special forces for the dispersal of football hooligans, of whom there were no more than fifty people. Dortmund fans behaved exactly as their Kiev mind mates, though they haven't hit anything yet.

Ignoring the recommendation to stay in the car, I decided to observe what was happening from a distance that was minimally allowed by the police cordon nearby. Nearby was a high police officer, like his Kiev counterpart, he commanded a small number of personnel and gave appropriate orders. Judging by his head thrown back, he received information from above on the radio, apparently from a police helicopter that was patrolling in the air.

When the sound of the cracked glass came out of the first broken window of football fans, the German chief loudly gave a few jerky teams and the special forces began to clear the street from the crowd of fans. I heard only two teams: “Kampfbereitschaft!” (“Combat readiness!”) And “Ahtung! Antshtifterin links! ”(“ Attention! The instigators on the left! ”) The special forces instantly cut the crowd of football fans into several parts and began to beat them, visually there were dozens of fans per police officer.

It struck me that in the human mess, which resembled a seasonal hunt of sea-killer whales for a huge flock of herring, the special forces beat, nevertheless, selectively and the blows got more aggressive fans. Asphalt on the street after some seconds was covered with umbrellas, torn fragments of jackets, glasses, backpacks, beer cans, shoes and sneakers, baseball caps, bloody handkerchiefs and thousands more items.

Fans, in whom every second had a broken-up face, could not escape anywhere, the entrances to all nearby streets and alleys were prudently blocked by the police. Police barriers pushed them into the open space of the street under the hail of special forces batons, which, as cinema Gleb Zheglov said, "knew well".

Aggressive hooligans were pulled out by the police from the crowd, they were put on their hands plastic "bracelets" and tied to each other. Then a powerful police water cannon appeared, which completed the special forces case. The aggressive crowd was scattered by the police in a matter of minutes, “packed” aggressive fans were left outside, they were dragged to the vehicles by their carts, they were driven into the salon with kicks, and the car with the detainees quickly left the sweep site. Employees of the communal service in orange vests began to put the street in order.

The policeman who stopped me, made a gesture to the detained motorists that it was time to leave. Driving past him, I asked: “What will happen to those who were taken away by the police after being detained in clashes? What punishment will they incur? ”He replied that absolutely nothing but one serious trouble — the hooligans would solidly replenish the city treasury, compensating financial damage for the broken windows and paying a considerable monetary penalty for disturbing public order. I realized that the self-sufficiency of the German special forces is as high as its level of professionalism.

Perhaps, these two specific cases, which I had to witness, will help determine the assessment of the adequacy of the use of force against the rioters to those of our citizens and officials from power structures who are still saturated with complacency in relation to our Nazis. Isn't that the “humane” militia lieutenant colonel of the 1994 model of the year, who paternally persuaded Kiev dunks not the “Kurochiti” trolleybus, to be at the forefront of future street “orange” disgraces?

If the issue of the adequacy of the use of force against the pogrom-mongers is to remain as it is understood by our opposition and some officials from the authorities, the question “Beat or not to beat?” Can very quickly turn Ukraine into Hamlet, which, as we know, sounds different - "To be or not to be?". Just how to be or not to be our state.
Author:
Originator:
http://2000.net.ua/2000/svoboda-slova/sotsium/96565
73 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. AVV
    AVV 9 January 2014 13: 34
    +38
    If we compare the use of force by law enforcement officers of our countries and Western countries, it will not be in favor of the latter! In Britain, the USA, they don’t stand on ceremony with protesters !!! So everything is compared !!! All charges are part of the campaign of the West aimed at the collapse of the Ukrainian state !!!
    1. sledgehammer102
      sledgehammer102 9 January 2014 16: 18
      +23
      Quote: AVV
      If we compare the use of force by law enforcement officers of our countries and Western countries, it will not be in favor of the latter! In Britain, the USA, they don’t stand on ceremony with protesters !!! So everything is compared !!! All charges are part of the campaign of the West aimed at the collapse of the Ukrainian state !!!


      In Russia, the same crap. Everyone screams at the brutality of the police and the oppression of freedom, well, like everyone else, only alternatively gifted. Although even a trivial comparison of two stocks, namely, Akkupay Volstreet and the dispersal of the next march of billions at some fountain, makes it clear that the picture at 180 degrees is different.
      1. matross
        matross 9 January 2014 16: 56
        +18
        Since you are called a power structure - so use POWER, not chew snot! It goes without saying indiscriminately, and if necessary ...
        1. GastaClaus69
          GastaClaus69 9 January 2014 18: 03
          -10%
          Quote: matRoss
          It goes without saying indiscriminately, and if necessary ...

          Golden words and cops would be in the soul. How many innocent people suffered from these security forces ...
          1. alex13-61
            alex13-61 9 January 2014 19: 13
            +4
            Quote: GastaClaus69
            . How many innocent people suffered

            It is these very innocent people that are used by more radical ringleaders, only some pay with their health, while the 'ringleaders', on the contrary, earn.
            1. 31231
              31231 9 January 2014 19: 54
              +8
              Shepherds always lead rams to the slaughter.
            2. saxa2103
              saxa2103 9 January 2014 19: 56
              +1
              Well, this stick is exactly about two ends - depending on who is being cheated, if the cops are my beloved, if the rowdy’s neighbor is well done for a long time, and then he and I are so chaos for 15 days, cops don’t differ in tolerance in all countries, especially when no witnesses
            3. haron
              haron 9 January 2014 20: 45
              +2
              According to the article "Innocent Man" it could easily be the author who got out of the car and decided to take a look.
              There are no innocents in such situations.
              as the cinematic Gleb Zheglov said, “he knew good.”

              Gleb Zheglov also said sho neher guns to be scattered everywhere and women should be dealt with on time.
              So there’s nothing to go into where the golden eagle works.
          2. Lukich
            Lukich 9 January 2014 22: 52
            +8
            Akkupay Volstreet


            ... 1340 people were beaten, loaded into cars and transported to prisons in the USA ...

            ... and we cannot - because the victory, ordered by the West, should be "Maidan" ...
            ... remember the football match in occupied Kiev during the Second World War ...- the Germans (the Nazis at that time) should have won, but the Kievans then were different, our old generation, our Heroes.
            ... today, by order of other Germans, the German project should win - Klitschko ...
            ... and no matter how our "Berkut" kisses the maydanuts, it is appointed to be the extreme - and this is a shame for all of us ...
            ... today we will substitute "Berkut" - tomorrow crowds of fascist youths will disperse law-abiding people into stalls ...
            ...Very well...
    2. Sakmagon
      Sakmagon 9 January 2014 16: 54
      +7
      condemned the "inadequacy of the use of force by law enforcement agencies", which, in their opinion, was during the dispersal of the "Maidan children" of Kiev by the Golden Eagle.

      SURE, NOT A PROBLEM!
      SAVE THE CHILDREN - BECOME BETWEEN THEM AND "BERKUT" !!!Face the "kids" ...
      Stop them - and there will be no violence!

      There is more benefit from one "Berkut" detachment than from their government and all political parties combined!
      1. alone
        alone 9 January 2014 19: 41
        0
        Law enforcement agencies can use force if there is an outrageous crowd or an unauthorized event. But everything should be within the law and force should be used only to violent.

        And one more thing. It’s illogical and unethical to beat, and if you’re guilty, you must raise and arrest the lying man, and not beat him and make him the hero of the crowd.
        1. haron
          haron 9 January 2014 20: 52
          +4
          Quote: lonely
          lying down is somehow illogical and unethical.

          Logical.
          And if this "lying" person in front of the sim beat you on the back of the head with a brick (a colleague helped to lay him down with a club and ran away), he should not only tie his hands with a layer, but also his legs, and let him lie.
  2. svp67
    svp67 9 January 2014 15: 35
    +15
    Everything should be a measure and most importantly the lawfulness and inevitability of punishment. If each of the destroyed trolleybuses were installed, convicted, and paid, for example, the TOTAL cost of one broken trolleybus, I think the trolleybus trust would specifically expose its trolleybuses to the fists of hooligans, but would there be a lot of people to buy a trolleybus each time?
    1. domokl
      domokl 9 January 2014 16: 34
      +11
      I don’t know ... But in the conditions of the same Maidan, it was quite realistic to knock on the head of some ashamed ... deputy ... There is a rule that applies in any democratic country - the first shot-fire to kill without warning, broken glass or other what hooliganism and batons are used quite legally.
      To paraphrase Lenin, one can say that every state is only worth something if it knows how to defend itself ...
    2. Magadan
      Magadan 10 January 2014 10: 37
      +1
      It is difficult to catch this measure when a fight. There survival instincts work. You begin to think about the measure, right then you grab yourself. I know for myself. In the Kadochnikov system, it sounds like this - of the two fighting, both do not hit with equal force. In other words, someone starts to be afraid and burn away. This feeling is transmitted to someone who is bolder at the moment and gives all the best. If you start chewing snot, they will trample.
  3. major071
    major071 9 January 2014 15: 38
    +13
    I will say this: each state has laws, and these laws must be respected. There are also methods prescribed in the basic laws that must be applied in violation of these laws. These methods of influence are spelled out in the laws on the police, police, etc.. To moan and blame that the methods prescribed in the laws of the state have been applied to them is, in my understanding, nonsense. hi
    1. Danafxnumx
      Danafxnumx 10 January 2014 14: 14
      0
      Quote: major071
      To moan and blame that the methods prescribed in the laws of the state have been applied to them is, in my understanding, nonsense.

      yet our liberals also groaned ...
      but, the state sided with the special forces in May 12, and therefore the positioners were blown away ....
  4. S-200
    S-200 9 January 2014 15: 52
    +7
    If thugs behave like cattle, then other methods besides slaughterhouse NULL ...
    and after the "stars" you can go to the monkey house, and a fine, and an administrator arrest ...
    Everything should be - ORDER!
    1. domokl
      domokl 9 January 2014 17: 41
      -1
      Quote: S-200
      If scumbags behave like cattle, then other methods than cattle are NOT effective

      Have you seen videos from Maidan? Peaceful demonstration, where ordinary people who feel really bad went out, students who weren’t hanging out and the same crowd ... They are completely unprepared for street fights ... And there are well-trained and physically and tactically militants ... They then raise a butch, and then professionally disappear.
      The article perfectly shows how special forces operate in Germany ... Not all indiscriminately, but in specific areas where the instigators are sitting .. Therefore, there is a negative. They catch and beat those very unprepared.
      1. Stanislas
        Stanislas 9 January 2014 19: 38
        +5
        Quote: domokl
        They catch and beat those who are not prepared.
        They may not be prepared, but they are not blind ... they see that the thugs attacked people in uniform who were supposed to stand and defend this fucking administration, and they stuck their flagpoles in the face. If one of the "unprepared" stood on the side of the scumbags, did not turn around and leave such a "demonstration", but with interest filmed it on a mobile phone, then to brag about what mess he was in, then what is he, when he is taken out of immobility , having reasoned slightly with a truncheon, bleats so plaintively: "For sho? For sho ?!"
        1. Magadan
          Magadan 10 January 2014 10: 40
          +3
          They are not prepared? This maydanut something? There are special units of specially trained young men, and even with plastic armor, brass knuckles, etc. There guys that fight with Golden Eagle, it's not us.
      2. Danafxnumx
        Danafxnumx 10 January 2014 14: 17
        0
        Quote: domokl
        Peaceful demonstration, where ordinary people came out who really feel bad, students who aren’t hanging out in crowbars and the same crowd ... They are completely unprepared for street fights ...

        and ordinary people did not know where they were going? no need to justify stupidity with idiocy ...

        Quote: domokl
        They then raise a butch, and then professionally disappear.

        Well, yes, only they didn’t disappear, they broke helmets with chains to Berkut ...
        in my opinion, it’s not a sin to send for such a world ...
  5. Same lech
    Same lech 9 January 2014 15: 53
    +3
    I would suggest special items, such as armored trolleybuses or bulldozers, for such situations to release a pair of heated crowd, so to speak.
    After each unsuccessful match, let the fascists and fans put such objects on the way, bash them and release all their aggression.
    1. S-200
      S-200 9 January 2014 16: 00
      +6
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      I would suggest special items, such as armored trolleybuses or bulldozers, for such situations to release a pair of heated crowd, so to speak.
      After each unsuccessful match, let the fascists and fans put such objects on the way, bash them and release all their aggression.

      It’s better for the management of FANclubs to expose the rubber dummies of football players after the match right on the field ...
      1. Stanislas
        Stanislas 9 January 2014 19: 53
        +1
        Quote: S-200
        to put rubber dummies of football players after the match right on the field ..
        Not bad idea. Let them knock on makiwaras and diverge.
    2. Danafxnumx
      Danafxnumx 10 January 2014 14: 20
      +1
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      I would suggest special items, such as armored trolleybuses or bulldozers, for such situations to release a pair of heated crowd, so to speak.
      After each unsuccessful match, let the fascists and fans put such objects on the way, bash them and release all their aggression.

      what? what aggression?
      you can’t control your aggression - to the doctor ...
      and people want to go to football matches to relax with their family, and not be a victim of a row of underdeveloped fascists ...
      1. German
        German 10 January 2014 14: 58
        0
        about "walking with family" of course smiled, but otherwise, I support your idea.
    3. German
      German 10 January 2014 14: 55
      0
      no-ahh ... better at once police water cannons, so that the brains immediately cool. and there will be no aggression, but a wild desire to be somewhere far away!
  6. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 9 January 2014 15: 55
    +4
    It struck me that in a human mess, which resembled the seasonal hunt of killer whales for a huge flock of herring,
    Well, I don’t know - I don’t know ... German youth was brought up in the greenhouse conditions of the rule of law, and was used to solving all problems in court, not on the street. Unless to beat showcases in protest. With our fans of CSKA, or with fans of Terek, the German special forces would not have succeeded so easily. laughing
    1. dark_65
      dark_65 9 January 2014 16: 48
      +2
      Believe me, it would have turned out, I’ve been to Germany, and once we were very heated, it really hurt, and there was no thought of resistance, for the matter. They work hard.
    2. Sour
      Sour 9 January 2014 18: 00
      +2
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      or with Terek fans

      I remember many incidents involving fans of the Moscow teams and Zenit.
      With all my difficult attitude towards the Caucasus, I have to state that I do not remember the riots with the participation of Caucasian fans, except in Makhachkala itself. I live near the stadium in Nizhny Novgorod. As fans of “Spartak” or “Zenith” come - always fights with the police, breaking glass, insulting passers-by, setting fire to stands, broken chairs, running out onto the field during the game. But for some reason fans of “Terek” or “Anji” never do this.
    3. Danafxnumx
      Danafxnumx 10 January 2014 14: 23
      0
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      With our fans of CSKA, or with fans of Terek, the German special forces would not have succeeded so easily.

      you know, I’m living near the Lokomotiv stadium ... we haven’t had any riots for 15 years, since the fans began to plant them at different metro stations ... except that the songs seem to be ripped under the windows ...
    4. German
      German 10 January 2014 15: 04
      0
      and this is also true ... but somehow it is necessary to pacify the dispersed morons! and in this context I am absolutely on the side of the cops! (although I don’t feel love for them (cops) since infancy) there are certain situations when you need to stay "homo sapiens " but not...
  7. saygon66
    saygon66 9 January 2014 16: 02
    +17
    Beat - definitely! These boys did not come out to feed the flies with sugar, but at least count each other's teeth. So both sides will be happy - and riot police warmed up, and the fans released the pairs. And compensation for damage is a pleasant bonus to the bills from the dentist.
  8. makarov
    makarov 9 January 2014 16: 32
    -1
    I remember how in the days of the USSR, as soon as the cops had clubs, for some reason they immediately had a desire to practice on someone. And their direct bosses even encouraged this, convincing their subordinates that the PR (rubber stick) was approved by the Ministry of Health. I remember from memory that it was forbidden to use it against pregnant women and the disabled, and so, beat someone you like, and absolutely with impunity. And all because the sticks were given out, but their use was not legally stipulated, and everyone, sometimes even a shabby cop, applied at his own discretion, according to the principle "but I want" ...
    1. Stanislas
      Stanislas 9 January 2014 20: 46
      +1
      Quote: makarov
      sticks were issued, but their application was not stipulated by law
      And just at mass events, put the guy with the camera a little taller (maybe on the bus) so that he would take off all the work. And if you posted something on the Internet with sticks and other fires, but he doesn’t have one on his camera, then hang that uncle by the balls. So law enforcement norms would be determined faster, and better learned to put things in order. I suspect that somewhere now there is an uncle, but no one hangs him for anything ...
  9. treskoed
    treskoed 9 January 2014 16: 33
    +1
    It’s one thing - excited fans of alcohol and another thing - when people are already tired of their being and their leadership ... The approach, of course, should be adequate ...
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 9 January 2014 16: 41
      +2
      -And who argues? Demonstration for the freedom of masturbation wassat obviously will not grow into a massacre ...
    2. Little Russia
      Little Russia 9 January 2014 17: 17
      +7
      If those who are tired of everything behave like fans, then they must be beaten in the same way.
    3. Danafxnumx
      Danafxnumx 10 January 2014 14: 26
      0
      Quote: treskoed
      another - when people are already fed up with both their being and their leadership ... The approach, of course, should be adequate ...

      but what if the leadership got it, then you can break helmets with riot police chains?
  10. andrei332809
    andrei332809 9 January 2014 16: 38
    +6
    Let's digress a little from Ukraine and look at us. it turns out to be some kind of unhealthy situation - a motivated hard worker walking home from work is ready to rob and process the full, but on the other hand, they are afraid to stop the shooting cortege of the Kaukaz "citizens". although the people would begin to call the representatives again the militia, and not the gendarmerie, if it were the other way around. I will never believe that in law enforcement only cowards and scoundrels. but where does this situation come from? are we ourselves to blame? nothing like that. when I put in the place of my son the mountains, for some reason, almost under the "execution" article. but the cops are supposed to do it on duty. so who do they serve ?!
    py.s. hold on, Ukrainian brothers, now Amer’s congressmen and senators are about to take care of you. oh what will be ...
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 9 January 2014 17: 01
      +3
      - Come on! Ever had to be present at the analysis of such cases? Well-groomed guys from somewhere "from above" ask questions like "How did you, specially trained people, inflict SUCH injuries?" And do not care that the victim was crooked, like a Turkish saber, waved a piece of iron, and tried to cripple the cop (guard). Having received a turnip, such types automatically become victims and innocent, they must be "forgiven and understood." Your every action as a "law enforcement officer" is under control, and often biased, and I don't know people who can withstand such pressure for a long time ...
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 9 January 2014 17: 22
        +7
        Quote: saygon66
        And do not care that the victim was crooked, like a Turkish saber, waved a piece of iron, and tried to cripple the cop (guard)

        do not distort. such a case is one in a hundred. but just a smell citizen? drank a bottle for three after work is a curve? but he was immediately circulated, and God bless him, with the protocol, but he returned home without money, without phones and beaten. if everything got it, take it out on those who deserve it ... so no, the law enforcement officer will not return from a simple person, but is it scary with others?
        1. saygon66
          saygon66 9 January 2014 17: 38
          +1
          - Here is an example with "slightly crooked" for us ... the problem is even to attach a drunk "in the trash" patient (unless he crippled someone or what he did not steal ... "sober" then now there is no!) However, this is m .b. our local trouble. And, if you remember, the transfer of the detainee to the sobering-up center takes place in the presence of several people: a duty officer, a doctor, a dress of 2 people, with the preparation of an inventory of property (and a copy of the act goes to the RRT, in order to avoid claims!) And all this is under the camera. And that it is not often they began to come across "slightly" - more and more "too" ..... Should I change my work?
          1. andrei332809
            andrei332809 9 January 2014 17: 48
            +4
            Quote: saygon66
            Change what work?

            what for? but you again about isolated cases. and I'm talking about a phenomenon (after all, the gopota from the people of the mountains shooting in the streets has already become a phenomenon). and for some reason there are no harsh measures against these "persons" request
            py.sy. and that such "peaceful" demonstrators should be settled down immediately and without appeal is a fact
            1. saygon66
              saygon66 9 January 2014 17: 59
              +4
              - Sorry, I couldn't resist - I looked into your profile ... Orenburg is Big Russia ... The thing is that in our region (I don't like the foreign word "enclave") there have not been any serious problems with various so-called. n. "diasporas" Perhaps this is due to the fact that having done a lot of things, there is nowhere to run - they will be caught! Or maybe because there is a large percentage of servicemen (Ministry of Internal Affairs) living in the region per capita, veterans of "hot spots", too. Although it may still be ahead ...
              1. andrei332809
                andrei332809 9 January 2014 18: 04
                +2
                Quote: saygon66
                Until now, there have been no serious problems with various so-called. "diasporas"

                Yes, we still have the identity in the norm. on isolated cases of greyhounds in relation to "my precious" personality I answer myself, but for something so serious, it's still quiet. but who knows ...
  11. DUBOVAY ROCHA
    DUBOVAY ROCHA 9 January 2014 16: 39
    -15%
    The cruelty with which these experts (shoulder cases of the master) disperse demonstrations is striking. They are taught this: cripple, kill. In the West, another tactic is crowd control. Therefore, the result is different. Less crippled and battered.
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 9 January 2014 16: 50
      +7
      - You should have seen the "New Year fights" (they are corporate parties)! Loaded with alcohol and now fashionable "substances" "office plankton" is simply bestial cruelty towards their own kind ... I say this as a direct participant in such fun! laughing
    2. Babon
      Babon 9 January 2014 16: 56
      +6
      Are there any examples? Here in Biryulyovo, there were a lot of local residents, and among them gathered a bunch of athletic-looking guys, and they would mischief, and again they would disappear into the crowd of women. Riot police also tried to catch these, and not to bludgeon everyone in a row.
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 9 January 2014 17: 05
        +4
        - Even as it is, spreading the fighting on the corporate party almost lost my nose! Some kind of dumbfounded clerk almost nibbled ... it wasn’t funny. And, honestly, if it weren’t for the women and children, I wouldn’t intervene, let them kill each other and eat!
    3. polly
      polly 9 January 2014 17: 43
      +9
      "Western tactics" are always better for some ... Forward to Europe, and everyone will be happy ... wink There the police are more affectionate and the road surface is better (softer for the face) laughing
    4. Horn
      Horn 10 January 2014 06: 28
      +1
      So who is holding something? Go to the geyropu!
  12. ochakow703
    ochakow703 9 January 2014 16: 51
    +11
    There should be a reasonable limit to everything. If you went out on the street to defend your rights, it does not mean that you need to destroy everything in your path. And if you have no patience, and you really want to smash everything around, then you really don't need to whine if the special forces crushed your face. You knew that you were breaking the law. I don’t think that any normal person is pleased to watch how overheated thugs destroy everything around. What do you! They are fighting for democracy so much. If you came to a "peaceful" demonstration with an iron bar, then don't blame me ... And the commandos are great! And Berkut is a class! The guys were unlucky only with their bosses, but with the impotent government.
    1. not good
      not good 9 January 2014 18: 43
      +3
      That's right, because of the impotent politicians, the effectiveness of grassroots divisions suffers, because any mid-level manager understands that he will be handed over as glass containers for the sake of the political interests of the next mini-god, despite the fact that the use of force was not only legal, but also adequate. And while the commanders of the security forces will not be sure that if I act BY LAW , using force, they will not turn out to be a bargaining chip in the next political game, any security officer is reinsured more than once.
  13. leks
    leks 9 January 2014 16: 54
    +3
    Quote: DUBOVAY ROCHA
    The cruelty with which these experts (shoulder cases of the master) disperse demonstrations is striking. They are taught this: cripple, kill. In the West, another tactic is crowd control. Therefore, the result is different. Less crippled and battered.

    Something I doubt your arguments about containing the crowd in the West, remember the French protests against same-sex marriage, showed a report on RUSSIA today, they showed a married couple there, they came to a demonstration with the children, and there were provocations from the LSTB, the children ended up in hospitals with gas poisoning used by the police; and many who were injured by batons and legs of police officers.
    Each country has its own acceptable threshold, after which a team of agents follows and no one can prove anything. The system will defend its own people. Someone will be crippled. Then try to prove that you didn’t beat your head against the police shield.
  14. DPN
    DPN 9 January 2014 17: 00
    +5
    Quote: domokl
    To paraphrase Lenin, one can say that every state is only worth something if it knows how to defend itself ..


    The right words without fulfilling them My BIG MOTHERLAND-USSR fell apart as small fragments that now swear among themselves. And it's not the fans, but the same bandits under the cover of the word cheerleader.
    So here it is completely for liberalism, which is described in the German city of Dordmont.
  15. DPN
    DPN 9 January 2014 17: 03
    0
    Quote: treskoed
    when people were already fed up with their being and their leadership ... The approach, of course, should be adequate ...


    There is ELECTION or REVOLUTION to this.
  16. max702
    max702 9 January 2014 17: 15
    +8
    Here is an example of China, they wrapped hundreds of other demonstrators on tank tracks and that’s all ... the country has already been in the order of more than a dozen years, the world's first economy, the largest gold and currency reserves, as well as the rapid development in all areas of science and technology .. maybe this is a recipe for success ?
    RS: In Czechoslovakia in 68, the order was mainly brought about by the soldiers of the GDR army, not our troops, it was they who did the dirtiest part of the work .. but the funniest Czechs were not offended by them, apparently they recognized the owner from old memory.
  17. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 9 January 2014 17: 15
    +9
    Our Omon and Berkut are just angels in comparison with the "democratic" countries .. I think if something like that (Swamp Maidan, etc.) there would not hesitate to shoot rubber bullets and poisoned people with gas and finishing off with water cannons with batons .. and all the media would be silent approvingly.! In general, I am amazed at the endurance of our Omon (Kasparov, out of anger, bit the riot policeman's finger, hoping that he would not be given a truncheon in the head, but he really wanted to become the bloody banner of the liberals ..) About the Berkut, I generally keep quiet, they need to erect a monument ..
  18. vlad.svargin
    vlad.svargin 9 January 2014 17: 19
    +4
    AVV (1)
    If we compare the use of force by law enforcement officers of our countries and Western countries, it will not be in favor of the latter! In Britain, the USA, they don’t stand on ceremony with protesters !!! So everything is compared !!! All charges are part of the campaign of the West aimed at the collapse of the Ukrainian state !!!

    I fully support AVV and I will add that in relation to Ukraine and to the authorities of independent countries from the West, a completely different (condemning) standard is applied. Now, if Yanukovych signed the agreement, THEY would be "touched" by the behavior of the "golden eagle." And then all the plans for "colonization" were ruined, which is why the "angry howl" arose.
  19. Black
    Black 9 January 2014 17: 30
    +12
    And **** you have to be afraid. You don’t have to beat them. They must be crushed.

    Father told ...
    Stalingrad. The 50s. artisan schools did not love each other anymore, the youthful force spurted sparkling wine. Hundreds on a hundred converged.
    To disperse the fellows, the district whistle was enough.
    For power. For - do not mess with her!
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 9 January 2014 17: 41
      +7
      - Exactly! In the 80s, lovers of waving their hands converged where nito in wastelands, no strangers, - "private event"
  20. pilot-mk
    pilot-mk 9 January 2014 17: 38
    +7
    Take an example from the Chinese comrades: in a similar situation on the Tian'an Myn Square, "peaceful demonstrators" were rolled into the asphalt with tanks. And now China is the strongest world power. If the country's leadership would show gentleness, then China would share the fate of the USSR.
  21. varov14
    varov14 9 January 2014 17: 39
    +2
    Protection of citizens from hooligans and extremists is the direct responsibility of the authorities - to beat unambiguously. Any direct action should cause adequate opposition.
  22. a.hamster55
    a.hamster55 9 January 2014 17: 47
    +6
    1982 year, Frankfurt on the Oder. Transferred to the local train and just before departure on the platform there is a crowd of heated teenage soccer fans. In the hands of club scarves and naturally beer bottles. They shout something loudly and do not see that a policeman is approaching from behind. I monitored the actions of the policeman - he did not even open his mouth and did not warn violators of public order, but briefly waved his club and the fan closest to him was on the fifth spot. The fans run fast and after 15 seconds everything calms down. From that moment I RESPECTED the German law enforcement officer.
  23. Ramil Zaripov
    Ramil Zaripov 9 January 2014 17: 49
    +3
    Liberalism regarding anarchist-minded fascist elements is fraught with bad consequences for the state, and this is very necessary for those who act for the collapse of the state itself. I am for the German police.
  24. Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 9 January 2014 17: 52
    +6
    To beat or not to beat? This question is identical to the consonant "To be or not to be". How many people, so many opinions.
    Based on the results of the pogroms, it is necessary to identify the instigators and organizers and conduct "debriefing" from them.
    And as in Chisinau, in April 2007, a demonstration against the election results was turned into a riot of banderlogs.
    As a result of the non-resistance of the special police units, conscripts from the police were beaten, who were sent to limit the "peaceful rally" and the building of the parliament and the president was thoroughly destroyed.
    Despite the huge amount of photographic materials NONE of the pogrom-mongers and the organizers present there bore responsibility, the parliament building is still being renovated and tens of millions of "conventional units" have already been spent on this, which could have been invested in construction and repairs and in the development of the city!
    So the question "To beat or not to beat?" - in my opinion should be decided through "Beat the organizers"!
    1. saygon66
      saygon66 9 January 2014 18: 05
      +5
      - Anecdote on the topic: Radio A answers the question "Can you beat your wives?" The answer is "You can! For even the great K. Marx said: Bitie determines consciousness!" laughing
  25. atos_kin
    atos_kin 9 January 2014 17: 57
    +3
    We must first ensure that the country has a mandatory multiple economic responsibility for all damage, and sometimes - to beat.
  26. Oh no no no
    Oh no no no 9 January 2014 17: 58
    +5
    The eternal Ukrainian question ...
  27. Zeus
    Zeus 9 January 2014 18: 01
    +3
    Of course, beaten fans can be beaten up and money must be bet, but the Nazis cannot be beaten in any case. The Nazis need only be killed.
  28. ed65b
    ed65b 9 January 2014 18: 09
    +5
    I will answer briefly BEAT.
  29. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 9 January 2014 18: 19
    +5
    In general, the real power is not false to allow all sorts of bog Maidans biryulevs, etc. This is its main function! Although at the present time of rampant information terrorist wars on the Internet it is very difficult .. The people, thank God, are understanding and patient (but for the time being ..) We who were born in the USSR can compare ... but our children cannot and now there is a cruel war for their souls .. The main thing is not to throw them into the maelstrom of the Internet and television .. They need our live communication (just not whining "but before .. yes you ..) it is difficult for them now in this stream of information (mostly negative ..) So think guys what for what .. And time passes ..!
  30. Andrey Peter
    Andrey Peter 9 January 2014 18: 41
    +1
    Quote: makarov
    And all because the sticks were given out, but their use was not legally stipulated, and everyone, sometimes even a shabby cop, applied at his own discretion, according to the principle "but I want" ...

    Nothing like this. Instructions were specifically developed where it was forbidden to hit, for example, on the head, etc. Another thing is when a crowd of drunken heated fans comes at you - you don't want to, but where will you end up? Although I do not argue that among the cops there were, as they say, "the family has its black sheep" angry
    1. yehat
      yehat 10 January 2014 14: 32
      0
      Quote: Andrey Peter

      Nothing like this. Instructions were specifically developed where it was forbidden to hit, for example, on the head, etc. Another thing is when a crowd of drunken heated fans comes at you - you don't want to, but where will you end up? Although I do not argue that among the cops there were, as they say, "the family has its black sheep" angry

      instruction is a piece of paper, which is good if in your pocket, and not in the toilet.
      if training were still being conducted so that the instruction became doable, then there would be no unnecessary problems. In short, negligence and incompetence.
      They know how to command and love everything; units know how to manage wisely.
  31. Roman_999
    Roman_999 9 January 2014 18: 44
    +4
    To beat, and on the back and soft places, with rods or a whip in the square, or to shoot such an execution on TV channels in deeply NOT a child’s time - it’s obligatory on TV - the main thing is to convey to many people that EXPRESS civil position throwing stones and sticks and TURNING over the car and committing Hooligan antics in the center of his hometown are NOT the correct interpretation of the concept of FREEDOM, because this is the result of permissiveness.

    PS Based on the above, we have what? - if some were mistaken in their choice and did not correctly form their conceptual apparatus, then I personally see the output of the correction in the drunk along, sorry, stink - purely for the purposes of prevention, because it is better to flog for a cause than later to have the worst forms of "civil disagreement "

    If it’s shorter: It’s curing, incurable, we’ll press it, and the time to flick irrevocably has passed much more seriously and we need to act proportionately, clearly and edifyingly, it’s not clear how to look at the story, We are not the first people, and if we don’t want to be the last we need to change our attitude towards enemies, explaining to those who do not understand the essence and meaning of occurring phenomena, as this is another question. I just expressed an opinion on whether or not to beat - To beat
  32. Rezun
    Rezun 9 January 2014 18: 56
    +2
    To beat or not to beat?Sure, not a problem...

    "Berkut" - "ours"? OUR!

    http://www.warandpeace.ru/ru/commentaries/view/86490/
  33. GEO
    GEO 9 January 2014 19: 10
    +5
    I visited Kiev Maidan on 02.01. This is a bomber! So crap ... beautiful place in a beautiful city, you must be able to! Where is the SBU looking? There, everyone, including the organizers, has 4 articles written on his forehead. Ukrainians, are you out of your mind ??? I feel sorry for you...
  34. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 9 January 2014 19: 21
    +1
    What punishment will they suffer? ” He replied that absolutely nothing but one serious trouble - hooligans would solidly replenish the city treasury, reimbursing financial damage for broken windows and paying a considerable fine for violating public order. I realized that the self-sufficiency of German special forces is as high as the level of its professionalism.
    That's the point ..! There is no money for relatives to shake, or to sweep up the streets for the rest of his life, repairing the damage .. (although in Russia it will not work for us ..) So you need to give it immediately on the head .. and so that you remember for a long time (a prerequisite), as I understand, in Russia we an entire generation of such party-goers, adrenalinists has grown .. (not beaten by fathers raised by single mothers ..)
    1. barsi
      barsi 9 January 2014 19: 47
      +1
      Not only on the head, another five years on Magadan, a trailer.
  35. GEO
    GEO 9 January 2014 19: 55
    +1
    Quote: baresi
    Not only on the head, another five years on Magadan, a trailer.

    do not be so angry, three on Magadan is enough)))
  36. voliador
    voliador 9 January 2014 20: 33
    0
    If the crowd destroys everything in its path, then it can and should be, excuse me, extinguish. Otherwise, it will only increase in size.
  37. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 9 January 2014 20: 45
    -1
    The author of the article is a provocateur of some sort laughing No, you can only imagine! What does this unbelievable author want ?! He, no less, calls on people who violate the law to be treated as adults, responsible, powerful people aware of their actions! Yes, he is crazy ...
    Where will this wild and outdated approach lead? First, to end the riots quickly and efficiently. And what about political games? And PR? And what about the article "writing off material assets for riots", beautiful in its boundlessness? But these terrible things, for all their intolerance, are still only flowers.
    Because by spitting out knocked-out teeth and paying huge fines, the beaten will do terrible things. They will ask loudly - how so? We broke the law, caused damage, and now we were beaten up and got multiple damages. AND THEY?! That's the ass, dear comrades ... At that crucial moment, when in front of the chosen society (by a strange coincidence, the circumstance is limited in living by some kind of ring and a miserable village ... well, they still imposed money on the entrance to their ring. did not poke the ground), and so these people face the most important task for the country. This task is called "legitimization of capital".
    That is, how is it - to take and start demanding that everyone mercilessly answer according to the law ?! Flaunting some broken ribs and REPEATED DAMAGES !! On the one hand, we buyuns punishable, we compensate for the damage. On the other hand, the whole-hearted staff of the ministry workers steered so that all the work got up, the values ​​were stolen, the land was sold (and the ministry employees bought real estate. Inside the ring. Coincidence, intended, coach!), The specialists fled and partly drank, partly working for the enemy. .. so now - adequate punishment and redress ?!
    The most dense law enforcement officer, if he has the misfortune to strain terribly in any structure located inside the ring, understands perfectly well - even among our people the template will instantly break. So do not rock the boat. Let the issue of punishments and retribution let go on the brakes. Under the carpet, notice. Better to release a thousand murderers and rapists than punish one official. This commandment is not from that book, but terribly effective.
    No one will beat you guys. Legitimization rules, panimaish ....
  38. Corsair
    Corsair 9 January 2014 20: 57
    +3
    Quote: The title of the article.
    To beat or not to beat?

    The answer has already been given by the immortal comedy of Gaidai ...
  39. GUSAR
    GUSAR 9 January 2014 21: 20
    +3
    Let the case from personal observations. In September 2011, I was vacationing in Spain, and during this vacation I was lucky to attend the Barcelona-Milan Champions League match. After the match, when I went to the parking lot of my bus, which takes tourists to the hotels after the game, I noticed that there are several buses from Milan fans next to my bus. While we were waiting for our whole group, about 30-40 Milan was ill in the parking lot for their buses ... to say that they were drunk and not to say anything !!! (as well as Russians say yeah !!!) there were about two Barcelona policemen next to these Milanese. And suddenly, a crowd of stout Italians began to beat bottles, push policemen, and scream wildly in the great and mighty language of the great Dante and Petrarch ... Oh, after that these guys I sincerely regretted as soon as this butch began, all of the glamorous and tolerant Barcelona policemen took out batons and started these Milan fans as if softer ... muh .. to laugh. All this action took literally 2 minutes, after which the Italians scraped off two of their comrades-in-arms from the asphalt, hurriedly bandaged their broken heads, all together plunged into their buses and quickly moved to their native Italy. And the policemen immediately disappeared among the beauties of their native Barcelona. At the same time, strangers didn’t suffer from all this in any way, but the majority didn’t even notice, and naturally no idea came to accuse the police of violating human rights, etc. The hot Spanish sun was setting ...
    PS I apologize if tired
  40. per3526
    per3526 9 January 2014 21: 21
    0
    It became apparent that the concept of the adequacy of the use of force has a different interpretation in society and is interpreted quite freely. Especially now, when the “orange” media and the opposition ----- yes, you still can’t do without the cradles ... although it’s unfortunate.
    maybe in 100 years after daisies in popk am, when the thugs flood.
    1. Corsair
      Corsair 9 January 2014 21: 35
      0
      Quote: per3526
      Especially now, when the “orange” media and the opposition ----- yes, you still can’t do without the cradles ... although it’s unfortunate.

      Makarenko will forgive us ...
  41. SV
    SV 9 January 2014 21: 36
    +1
    Any action must be adequate to the threat, i.e. hooligans in the form of fans are one thing, the turmoil that is a threat to the state (Maidan and swamp) is another. If in the first case it is possible to do with "two blows to the kidneys", then in the second the actions should be clear / uncontested and in all directions, starting from the information field and ending with the "kidneys". There is a law that must be observed, there are people obliged to be responsible for the observance of the rule of law ... Any official / employee who obstructs the observance of the rule of law by his actions / inaction is a priori a criminal to the same extent as a person / group who committed a crime. The question is the inevitability of punishment - a form of liberalism sown by the West, carefully prepared, which resulted in a fatal fear of decision-making. Fortunately in Russia during the swamp, the guards of law and order and some politicians took the pill of fearlessness, which prevented the Ukrainian scenario ...
    However, a single dose of the medicine under the watchful eye of a doctor (VP) only prevented the acute phase of the disease, but in front of less global threats, at the local level (the same shooting from corteges or fear of "serious people") remained - the knees shake shallowly and sweat sneaks up to well ... py. The main thing is that they began to pay at least some attention to this problem.
    It is much more difficult to apply the vaccine of decency to ordinary law enforcement officers (I'm not talking about everyone, because I know a lot of worthy ones). So, this fall, illegal Uzbeks who came from Moscow said that despite the unfolded struggle against illegal immigrants, having met on the PPS street it was enough to give them a certain amount, and the question of documents was no longer on our own (we couldn’t reach an agreement). It is enough to look at which cars (the owners of which, for example, are pensioners) the policeman moves during off-hours. Plus to everything in common - each region has its own specific sores ...
  42. Vikmay16
    Vikmay16 9 January 2014 22: 57
    +1
    Competent article! Aggression must be suppressed at the beginning of the catfish, until it has grown to the elements!
  43. Stanislas
    Stanislas 9 January 2014 23: 11
    0
    If for business, beat. It is better for a person to be beaten than condemned: he will heal earlier, and he will sooner learn to respect the law. Although ... After the release of Hodor and Pusek, now there would be no new trend in "business" - inmates or, as an option, Hodorki.
  44. COBOK
    COBOK 9 January 2014 23: 23
    0
    If YOU yourself, of your own free will (otherwise it is very difficult), found yourself in a raging crowd, crushing everything in your path, supported, whether by shouts, actions, or just for the sake of number - there is nothing to howl about "arbitrariness", "inappropriate use of force" etc. YOU are a provocateur and you are simply obliged to rake in full, so that next time on the offer to go "have fun" howled, pissed and stayed at home.
    Now we see constant "soft" provocations: refusal to leave a public place, "sit-down protests", stuffing frozen chickens, beating eggs to the asphalt, kissing cops, etc. etc. My personal opinion is that if they spit in your face, break your nose (by the way, it works and helps), especially if they spit in the face of the country.
  45. konvalval
    konvalval 10 January 2014 00: 41
    0
    Who doubts let them watch the operative video of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine in the comments to the article "What's under the tree?" What were the "Maidan children" doing there. Maybe they will find an answer to the question.
  46. maanima
    maanima 10 January 2014 02: 16
    +1
    Liberals, democrats, non-systemic opposition, sexual minorities, for some reason always require special treatment. Well, with gays, everything is more or less clear. I’m sorry, the fifth point is so arranged. With liberals, democrats and other riffraff, nothing is clear, because it is not possible to guess what kind of attitude they require for themselves. They beat them - they yell that power creates lawlessness. They don’t beat - they also yell about the inability of the authorities to restore order. In short, don’t please them. In these, apparently, the head is so arranged.
    But back to our eternally bleating gates-bearers. It is logical to assume that if someone wants a gentle and sensitive attitude towards himself (this is not about homosexuals), from the initially non-aggressive people (!) In uniform, then he himself must be white and fluffy. And at the same time, he must not refer to the provocateurs who penetrated his ranks. This is entirely his problem and concern. In the end, hit the provocateurs with chains, let the gas into their mugs, in general, be creative with piercing and other objects (well, should I teach you?) And the provocateurs, in an outburst of love, will probably rush to your neck and, at best, kiss you to death, and at worst, they just admit they were wrong. If this happens, then you have the right to demand such an attitude towards yourself, from people in uniform. Something like this, should look like the relationship between the parties, in accordance with "European values". But the obstinacy of the individuals constantly beating with their hooves is well known and logic is not their lot. Therefore, hoping that they will hear is most likely pointless. And then you need to act "civilized", in accordance with the principles based solely on humanism - to drive out - excuse me to define all this public, and attention! (let this word caress your ears, admirers of the American Dream) on the reservation, the greatest invention, the most important of all democracies.
    And speaking in human (non-liberal) language, you need to defecate in places reserved for this. Given that there are not so many lovers (or rather professionals) to shout at the fatherland, or rather so many that even to beat them is simply indecent, then there is not much room for them. But these places should be fenced so that these very jumping creatures do not have the opportunity to overcome them. Nevertheless, the rest of the space in which I must say that normal people live, for them, and for any other violent, should be inaccessible, under pain of not weak criminal liability.
  47. nov_tech.vrn
    nov_tech.vrn 10 January 2014 11: 39
    +1
    Evil must be answered not with good, but with justice.

    Confucius.
  48. garlik
    garlik 10 January 2014 12: 07
    0
    "I only heard two commands:" Kampfbereitschaft! " ("Combat readiness!") And "Akhtung! Anshtifterin links!" (“Attention! The instigators to the left!” How not to start hearing the same commands in our own cities.
  49. Makarov
    Makarov 10 January 2014 13: 53
    0
    Neither add nor turn down - I myself have seen this many times ....
  50. avg
    avg 10 January 2014 14: 16
    -2
    Fans, in whom every second had a broken-up face, could not escape anywhere, the entrances to all nearby streets and alleys were prudently blocked by the police. Police barriers pushed them into the open space of the street under the hail of special forces batons, which, as cinema Gleb Zheglov said, "knew well".
    If you have already raised the issue of professionalism, then at least consult. The paragraph given here is the height of unprofessionalism. Such actions can only cause a crush and lead to human casualties.