China is developing two more types of stealth fighters - J-23 and J-25

Chinese aviation industry is stepping up stealth aircraft, reports israeldefense.com. J-20 and J-31 are under development, on the PLA website there are also J-23 and J-25, which should take away the US dominance over the Pacific Ocean.

Two new stealth aircraft, J-20 and J-31, are in the design stage. However, the secrets of these fifth-generation fighters appeared on the PLA website, according to a Qianzhan news portal.

The J-23 fighter (see figure), created by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, is no longer based on Russian technology, the report says. The Shenyang corporation chose to use the American F-23 Raptor as the basis for the J-22, which should provide the Chinese Air Force and Navy with more chances to win in possible fights with American aircraft.

According to the information disclosed, the J-23 has a longer fuselage and two V-shaped keels, which are very similar to those used on the F-22. If China can achieve the purchase of 117C engines with thrust vectoring in Russia, the maneuverability characteristics of the J-23 will also be improved, the report says.

It also says that the J-25 4 generation (according to the Chinese classification), designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is capable of shooting down F-22 in a few seconds. The aircraft, which was called the "Ghost Bird", is considered one of the best stealth aircraft in the world thanks to Chinese 3D printing technology. Analysts say that the main task of J-25 is to challenge the dominance of the United States and its allies in the Pacific (the future operational environment of Chinese aircraft carriers).

Comments

[alone]

Reptiles work around the clock)))

[Vadivak]

Quote: lonely

Reptiles work around the clock)

About round the clock to the very point. The combination of working capacity and hard work, as they say about them "the Chinese are East Germans"

[Siberian German]

plus devotion to the country

[Basarev]

That's just the engines still buy from us. Only the scum of society does not realize that our latest engines with phantasmagoric characteristics will never reach the Chinese

[Greenwood]

Quote: Basarev

our latest engines with phantasmagoric characteristics never reach the Chinese

Naive Chukchi young man. They will bribe when necessary and whom it is necessary, the benefit of people like Toli Serdyukov in the government and the Ministry of Defense is full, and they will receive. How many cases have been.

[Kir]

Well, they get it, and then what? I’m sorry on watch how much I heard enough when our licenses were acquired, and what is the use more often than worse than the original product came out, sorry for the expression must be taken out and give birth then it will be worthwhile.

[A.YARY]

China is developing two more types of stealth fighters - J-23 and J-25

China began to print military aircraft on the 3D printer

I think that both topics are worthy of going in one bundle, so to speak.

[Tersky]

Quote: A.YARY

I think that both topics are worthy of going in one bundle, so to speak

Andrey, the literal translation of "Ghost Bird" is the spirit of a bird. (Spirit, no more .....) I quote further- "The Shenyang corporation preferred to take the J-23 American F-22 Raptor as a basis,". Do you have any questions? First and last, who will give them, the basics ....?

[SSR]

Quote: Tersky

Quote: A.YARY

I think that both topics are worthy of going in one bundle, so to speak

Andrey, the literal translation of "Ghost Bird" is the spirit of a bird. (Spirit, no more .....) I quote further- "The Shenyang corporation preferred to take the J-23 American F-22 Raptor as a basis,". Do you have any questions? First and last, who will give them, the basics ....?

Sorry everything was copied.
The Chinese took the American as the basis for the reason that it is easier to copy from our T-50 with many moving parts that work in one system and it is very difficult to copy it without data, in fact it is necessary to think of everything from scratch. ))))

[majorserg1978]

I apologize. Calculations are needed, but they do not. Not everything with a ruler can be copied. I apologize again.

[Algor73]

The combination of performance and diligence. What price is this hard work! They come to us - industriousness disappears, but, like everyone else, just to steal, deceive, etc. When they reach such a standard of living as ours (social insurance, pensions, days off, supervision of the competent authorities, meaning for all working Chinese), then they will become overweight. They take a chance. And do not miss your chance. Let and from under the stick.

[sergeschern]

Nevertheless, we have what we have; "twig" Chinese

[igor.borov775]

Hi, I read and wonder how far we are from an accurate assessment of this country. After the 2008 crisis, this is a completely different country, But here, according to an old habit, we won’t give it and they won’t be able to do all that. Open your eyes and take a closer look at this country. This country is no longer consumer goods as the Chinese themselves imagine it here, they exploit this thinking abroad with might and main, It’s very convenient they say they won’t be able to do more, But here is a deep delusion, the country successfully developing its space program can and already has a lot, A simple example China built a network of high-speed railways took the first the place in length doesn’t stop there, He signed a century contract with the French and they built 50 high-speed locomotives and built the production of such cars in China, Now the Chinese themselves build high-speed locomotives at home, I am pained to read about the attitude of 3D technology without realizing that this is new a revolution in technology where we are lagging behind only the first steps have begun, Yes, we have a great past but this is not a reason to look down on what others do; the world changes what we did or do only we quickly pass to the back of our heads completely different countries and then we wonder how it happened, And it happened China graduates a lot of technical specialists it’s very fashionable to be an engineer, And we don’t bake it’s clear who, the other day the head of ROSSATOM was reporting for the year and now what kind of picture develops if you discard that husk that it’s fashionable to tweet like engineering support that constantly has to provide enterprises, then this picture is very bad with engineers and designers, it becomes a problem, and we only in 13 we were able to do what we had planned for the first time, This year it was constantly sounded for the first time in this new history that we did what we planned and most importantly stopped that massive collapse of industry, we achieved sustainable work and most importantly for the first time we believed ourselves that we can in spite of any difficulties this is important, And as for China, this country is gaining p Azgon and we will once again be surprised at their successes,

[ed65b]

Igor, have a beer.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: ed65b

Igor, have a beer.

I do not want. Better than vodka.
P.S. I am also Igor. Happy New Year.

[Kir]

I agree about China, but here it is more likely not an underestimation. A Misunderstanding How did they manage to do this ?, and the misunderstanding stems from the fact that since the day of J.V. Stalin's death, we have lost more and more healthy patriotism. and in the first place, it fell among the "elites" to a greater extent among their heirs, look who was involved in the farts, through which channels all the courts got, and so on. The clearest example of patriotism is their Huidans !, criminals, yes !, But they help their own people, but what do we have? judging by the product that is "in the markets", this does not mean that we all judge it so badly, for example, I think that in many ways it is necessary to take an example from China, starting from respect for our own history and ending with our attitude to the outside world ...

But on 3D technologies, I have a different opinion (on points):
1) Why are you boiling something? Can we composites ?. No!, Materials with memory and even more so, namely they are the future
2) And what is fundamentally new in them? Forgive me then, and Jacquard machines should be attributed to 3D printers, but how old are they ?, and indeed all the principles applied in them are also not new
3) A by-product of high technology, the goal of selling all of this is to shift the burden of money on buyers
4) None of such equipment works without software, moreover, not all software is suitable, so you must also purchase certain software, but what is known in it? By the way, where then to put such a thing as Independence of the State, A? Add more licensed courses for this software.
5) Pure commerce, just scroll through the Internet and a world will open in which you will be offered ready-made models, appropriate consumables, equipment and then on the list
And do you still believe in 3D printing and the pure thoughts of the manufacturers of everything you need?
True, with regards to domestic software, there are questions why we don’t have free fully-functional CAD software, the same supposedly free Nano CAD, sorry, it’s free only the basic one and it doesn’t allow you to make a commercial product, I’m silent about Compass, though it’s not so bad Yes, yes We also have software manufacturers who, if not for free, at least at good discounts, sell them to their Fellow Citizens, but these are perhaps isolated cases and they still need to be found.

[michajlo]

Hello Igor!

You are right, today's China is not the same OLD VILLAGE China for a long time, it is a powerful large country with inexhaustible human resources and a WISE communist political leadership !!!

And where China will be in 10-10 years and where we, the heir to the GREAT and POWERFUL UNION, will be, it is a matter of life and death.

I am just jarred by the "naive shapkozakidatelstva" of some hurray-patriots ???

China is growing, developing and FASTING ahead of the rest of the world ...

This, alas, is so, but in Russia it’s like holding the next Olympics, plundering billions of pests and swindlers from the category of "suspects" to transfer them to "witnesses" and then pay out compensation for moral damage.

And "peacetime" is quickly flowing away ...

I am not afraid of Russia's defeat in future "hot and diplomatic" battles, the Russian people, together with the fraternal peoples, WILL EVERYTHING WILL WIN!

But why would it be necessary to pay a very expensive price for the opportunity to live for our children and grandchildren?

And this is all thanks to our "faithful sons of the people / guarantors of the prosperity of traitors to the motherland and thieves in ties."

[igor.borov775]

Not so long ago, the experimental Union was launched, it was being worked out on it that they had already forgotten lunar engines that they could master in our country, You can smile at this news, but despite the difficulties they could restore the production of these machines, This means we are also starting to look for approaches to the moon , And we also had engines, and the more solid truth was built there behind the cordon in Ukraine, our rocket launchers dream of making them, So quietly, but attempts are being made to return what was but at a different technical level, It pleases, Yes, the news was from China Driver-Benz won the competition and signed a turnkey construction contract for some plant, the Chinese themselves are not very verbose but the amount of the contract is announced 2 billion euros I wonder what kind of screwdriver is being built there, Yes they have already voiced the sum of the costs of building a high-speed railway since they donated it $ 4,5 billion , Our same length to Kazan tentatively costs about $ 30 billion,

[Andrew 447]

I disagree with you colleague. China, as it was 80% a VILLAGE COUNTRY, has remained with it. China does not have its own (developed and created) technological production. All enterprises with high technological potential were bought outside of China. Then this equipment was copied and replicated in China. The Chinese try to fix all the defects of the copied equipment within the limits of their understanding of the problem, apart from the ideologist and creator of the original, and this becomes a snowball. Yes, over time they find the optimal engineering solution to the problem, but this takes years and in fact they are already morally modernizing obsolete. I'm not a specialist in aviation, but I can say for sure that their advertised tank "Type-99", "Leko" from all tanks in the world, and the machine is very so-so. Only in 4 of its modernization were they able to implement missile weapons, talk about the durability of the barrel We bought the engine from the Germans, we don't have it on our own, and we are talking about a product that is an order of magnitude less technological than the plane, especially the 5th generation. I'll draw a far-fetched analogy. Often in Chinese markets they sell low-quality goods at a meager price in large volumes, only they are not needed by anyone now, but 5-10 years ago they were in demand, they were riveted, but now They don't fucking need anyone. They attach various bells and whistles to sell them, but these bells and whistles do not make their consumer qualities higher.

[alone]

Do not underestimate them. The main problem is that, in China, both the state and the people are united in terms of how to raise China to first place in the world in everything. And what they copy and steal, they have a goal in front of themselves, and to achieve The results go all out. It’s better to reevaluate them and prepare with a reevaluation.

[Andrew 447]

I cannot speak for all the Chinese, but China from Shanghai to Guangzhou is very different from China north of Shanghai, the difference is precisely in mentality and in the fact that the West once influenced the south of China. Therefore, the slogan "people and party are united" at the moment is losing its relevance in China, especially for the south, China is increasingly sliding towards the usual bourgeois cesspool. The center and north of the country has always been the support of the Chinese government. Young people born after the 80s are terribly far from the social ideas of the unity of the party and the people. Chinese society is now undergoing colossal stratification according to wealth. For example, in the regional center of China, 1m2 of housing costs 2-2,5 thousand dollars, in reality this housing can be bought by 3-5% of the population. Chinese peasants coming to the city from its wealth fucking do not understand how it turns out that they plow on the land for a pittance, and in the city the people eat. It may be written chaotically, but how does the owner of a small factory in a village with adobe walls and a cow harnessed to a cart feel when a Chinese from another province comes to him in an expensive car and buys his products for a pittance. The main goal of the Chinese government is to keep as much work as possible the people, so that the people can earn money for food and current needs. The Chinese have built high-speed railways, but only 1-2% of the Chinese can use them, it's expensive.

[igor.borov775]

Oh, the road, yes, the ticket cost is expensive, but it’s three times cheaper than the plane and pulls it to HONG KONG, and now we think the plane from Hong Kong to Shanghai flies for more than two hours, and the express road takes a little more than an hour, draw your own conclusions, our experts have discussed this news in VESTI-24, having not found another way to explain why we rushed so expensively together to talk about the project of the Yankis age, they also want to build there, but the amount of this whole thing is already another almost 60 billion dollars, and it all came down to the fact that this is a normal amount, I'm talking about our railway to Kazan, that’s all said, China entered the WTO before us, but doesn’t make it valuable inside the country to European ones, but we are in a hurry to be like European ones,

[Nu daaaa ...]

.All high-tech enterprises purchased outside of China

And you, dear, remember the USSR of the thirties. Dneproges, Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works, Nizhny Novgorod Automobile Plant, chemical, aviation, electrical industry, military-industrial complex. In addition to creating new industries, it was necessary to quickly modernize the mass of old enterprises and learn the speedy techniques of designing and constructing giant facilities.

While the "great construction of socialism" remained the main news of the day, the Soviet Union did not hide the amount of technical assistance coming from the West. September 23, 1927 Stalin wrote to Sergo Ordzhonikidze: “Regarding rationalization, you are right from beginning to end. We will certainly need a business trip from here of engineers and workers in general to America and Germany. Skinging on this matter is sinful and criminal ... " In the 20s and 30s they did not argue about this, but hired, invited and even recruited them to build socialism. Formula V.I. Lenin's "Communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole country" would remain an empty phrase, if there weren’t General Electric in America. Stalin’s instruction “to put a man on a tractor” would have sunk into oblivion without American help in the construction of tractor factories.

[Kir]

And no one is particularly silent about the fact that Ours went to take on experience, and also invited Western specialists here, read, for example, the biography of Kapitsa, But the specialists did the Special people And all the Russian people were industrialized, and if there hadn’t been others GE, by the way how many I remember also the German companies participated the same, the same Simens, by the way, but what they forgot to remember the Old Man Ford. so that.....
The question for some is rather different, to what extent China itself will be able to further improve and develop as a State of High Technologies, I personally have doubts about this, I personally believe in the Renaissance of Great China, but whether those who shoved their technologies to him will give it to him That is another question, and given the "Islamic" or rather "Turkic" (analogous to our Caucasus and regions with a "Turkic" population, the factor of northern China, as well as recent events related to this region, it is already clear how "friends of human values" are pulling China away.

[Consmo]

You are respected for years, look at what you wrote. Remember when there was the Great Depression. And the word help can be shoved. The USSR saved Ford from bankruptcy and many dozens of factories. And also fed engineers.
Mortality in depression was not lower than during the famine.

[Andrew 447]

I almost agree. BUT: 1. From 1908 to 1914, Russia's GDP growth (up to 9% annually, Europe really didn’t like it. 2. Tsarist Russia had its own heavy industry and at a fairly high level (sometimes due to cooperation with foreigners) .3. The First World War, the October Revolution and the Civil War significantly reduced the engineering corps (they left the country, they were shot, but nevertheless they managed to preserve the engineering school and its centuries-old traditions) and the skilled worker (died at the front) .4. At the time of the decision According to GOELRO, not a single country in the world had experience in carrying out such projects, the involvement of world-class specialists and Russian engineers from the old and new schools made it possible to implement this project in China.

[Consmo]

I agree.
Smiled about the 3D printer.
They can print and only print the reliability of this part is a big question.
It is advisable to attach a frame to an epoxy; these are not riveting toys in eggs.
An example of a Chinese entrance door is made. Such are beautiful with patterns stamped on metal. Only these doors are sad ... only women buy alone. Since the metal is opened with a can opener.
You say they will increase the thickness of the metal. Then the press will cost several million and, accordingly, the door will not beat the Russian one at all and there is no need to carry it. Commerce and technology are small nuances.

[igor.borov775]

Lord, I myself was then surprised at the products of a state plant that has a quality standard adopted in the European Union. In China, the fight against a low-quality product is growing, And China was able to choose exactly what it needs during the crisis, there was a crisis everyone needs money China sensibly he ordered the bucks, the Yankees could not stop them from saving them, And China got such production that they never sold it And now they start to run, we can only guess what China could buy, And that the country is a completely different simple example where countless builders disappeared, you even they didn’t notice that China began to rise economically and engineers of high qualification of all specialties rushed to the request for help. By the way, for the Yankees it’s just a problem, many valuable workers left for China,

[Andrey Yuryevich]

the layouts are beautiful, but without our technology, the engines are just layouts ....

[Saburo]

East Germans are Japanese. The Chinese are more likely something like Eastern Jews from the left slopes, although the real Eastern Jews are Koreans. The Chinese are historical shameless traders and scammers, at least look at those who are pushing all the dregs throughout Russia, they are. But there are no wars from them.

[GSH-18]

Quote from the article: "Analysts point out that the main task of the J-25 is to challenge the dominance of the United States and its allies in the Pacific Ocean (the future operational environment of Chinese aircraft carriers)."
================================================== ============
Again, Chinese aircraft carriers ....
Such preparations are not good.

[Siberian German]

and who prevents us from working like this - my father worked no less during the union

[Tersky]

Quote: Siberian German

and who prevents us from working like this - my father worked no less during the union

List you by name, or in one word ? If in one word, faith in the king, if in the plural, faith in the inevitable ... ... And if on business, there is no master in this "kingdom" ... And the eggs with the dancer have nothing to do with it .. Everything is simple, everyone holds them in YOUR hands. Try crushing them with YOUR hand. Does not work? Not.. ? Uh ... but I didn’t know .... AXIOM, isn't it? If you correctly understand the minus.

[AVV]

One thing is stolen from us, the other from America, but the engines never learned to steal !!! And they don’t need to sell the newest, after 10 years to sell what we have now !!!

[JIaIIoTb]

To disassemble the engine, copy spare parts does not mean that you can DO the engine.
They cannot copy manufacturing technology. The materials themselves are not available to them either. And so .... let them experiment ... if there is a lot of money.

[the polar]

Quote: JIaIIoTb

To disassemble the engine, copy spare parts does not mean that you can DO the engine.
They cannot copy manufacturing technology. The materials themselves are not available to them either. And so .... let them experiment ... if there is a lot of money.

China is copying the Japanese economic model: the acquisition of technology and equipment. With science in China is pretty weak, although there is a network of universities. In general, in Southeast Asia, science is very weak. To catch up with European science, they will need more than fifteen to twenty years. Then only maybe they will have some kind of scientific school.
So if the Russian government does not deliberately destroy Russian science, we will still be able to expand our reserve of high technologies much further in time.

[URAL72]

"The bastards work around the clock"

Work then works, but this article is the misinformation of the Chinese comrades. What is the point of riveting so many machines for one purpose? Why reinvent the wheel? It has long been clear to everyone that it is optimal to have a light and heavy aircraft, the rest is wasteful. China has a lot of money, but they will not scatter it, because they have big problems. Further: the article states that China still does not have a reliable and powerful engine. The point of making an airplane (and not one) without an engine? Conclusion: - if there is at least some truth in the article, then these machines are only a conceptual study that will never be embodied in metal ...

[tronin.maxim]

Let the new destroyers develop at least how much, but without our engines they cannot achieve their goals! So here a lot depends on Russia! Thank god su-35 we did not sell them!

[Airman]

Quote: tronin.maxim

Let the new destroyers develop at least how much, but without our engines they cannot achieve their goals! So here a lot depends on Russia! Thank god su-35 we did not sell them!

At Rosoboronexport, LIVING is at the forefront, so the SU-35 will be sold if they already offer the T-50 for sale. Time will tell.

[Botanologist]

The presence of the PGO in the figure does not at all fit with the Raptor. It looks like everyone will not finish cutting our Sushki. Accordingly, the "stealth" of the aircraft is in doubt. I do not even want to discuss knocking down grunt in a few seconds

[sergeschern]

In Ukraine they will buy.

[ivshubarin]

The Chinese work for us, lazy and without initiative. All their progress by the minds of our engineers who left in the 90s is moving and cheap extras

[Just Vasilich]

URAL72:
... these machines are just a conceptual study that will never be embodied in metal ...

3D printer products. I launch these for my grandchildren with a rubber catapult. True UAV, but on 60 meters throws easily. I don’t know what about the F-22, but the raven accelerates the packs spectacularly, especially when in oncoming courses.

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: URAL72

, then these machines are just a conceptual study that will never be embodied in metal ...

Perfectly in the hole. It's just that the article contains the next wishes of our eastern friends. They have no weapons, no engines, no radar for these machines, but they will develop pokka, everything that is drawn will become morally obsolete, because in twenty years we will have impulse engines, and they will have to "want" again.

[Skiff-2]

Quote: URAL72

Conclusion: - if there is at least some truth in the article, then these machines are only a conceptual study that will never be embodied in metal ...

Well, for some reason, it will not come true, the previous versions are also concepts, while the tests are underway, these will arrive, and there you can choose what will go into the series. However, the fountain of engineering thought in the Celestial Empire evokes good envy, just like we did in the 30s. And we need our own light fighter ... with the Irbis.

[Airman]

Quote: lonely

Analysts note that the main task of the J-25 is to challenge the dominance of the United States and its allies in the Pacific Ocean (the future operational environment of Chinese aircraft carriers).

China is an eastern country, and the east is a delicate matter. They say one thing, think another, and do the third. So there is no need to make their statements, you have to THINK yourself.

[largus886]

They really didn’t learn how to make cars, but here is the whole plane!

[igor.borov775]

You think so before and we bought it in vain, and after that we went our own way or the memory got lost, Everyone started from here, the main thing is to have finances and an accurate vision of the problem, and the rest is solved, But here is just a concept published, If everything that was tested and created in experimental design solutions and concepts, we would have a monstrous number of devices that simply created a lot of problems in the industry that just collapsed under this burden, we just don’t know anything that this country can do, it’s clear that something else will not be built, and it’s not necessary here, there is no noise at all; it’s just a concept, and these are completely different things. You just have to keep in mind that China allocates solid finances to science. And science will always give returns, though it’s not as fast as you want but it will,

[Very old]

You do not know - why the article 30 minuses?
Our narrow-film "brothers" pump up muscles intensely
And after all, they have territorial claims to all their neighbors

[Delink]

There are many more))))

[kelevra]

Now they look similar to the American F-16!

[Vadivak]

Quote: ..

The 25th generation J-4 (according to Chinese classification), designed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is capable of shooting down the F-22 in a few seconds.

Well, yes, write from the parking at the airport

[Cherdak]

Quote: Vadivak

capable of shooting down the F-22 in a few seconds.

90 year old man talking to a doctor:
- I can’t do anything with women!
- God have mercy, at your age!
- And my neighbor is 82, he says that he is doing well ...
- And who's stopping you from speaking as well?

[makarov]

When all the bins are full of money, and they already creep out of profusion, of course you can build whatever you want, without looking around ...

[wanderer_032]

A graphic computer image looks good, of course, but when the cars fly live, then you can talk about something else.

[Hitrovan07]

Precisely, about a year ago, the guys "flying online" were offered a ride on real airplanes - after the flight "the view was pale but there was a bright shine in the eyes." the guys reported that reality has a colossal difference from online - so 3D is cool of course - but eggs can be cool too.

[sataha666]

How can a designed aircraft be considered the best stealth machine? And what do their printers have to do with it?

[tungus]

Quote: sataha666

And what do their printers have to do with it?

Really. For China, 3D copier is much more relevant.

[igor.borov775]

The best question, And here printers, This is a completely new direction of science while the first steps are being taken, And this whole system is not being created for games at all, 3D Inventor CLEARLY EXPLAINED THAT THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MEDICINE AND IF THERE WILL BE SOLVED TO THIS PROBLEM, THE PROBLEM OF SOLVING MANY PLACES WILL INSTEAD INDUSTRY, I'm just wondering what about this area we do not know much, but in vain IS THE FUTURE OF mEDICINE, Now THIS DECISION attracted considerable FINANCE and numerous scientists simply knotted on this topic, in general it is JUST a separate issue and very interesting, and forgot to SAY ALL THIS DIRECTLY RELATED TO NANO TECHNOLOGY, YES YES ON THEM

[Basileus]

Less capsa. At present, 3D printing technologies do not provide the opportunity to obtain materials of the same quality as those obtained by traditional methods. So now it’s premature to talk about the press as a plus of this fighter, it’s rather a minus.

[alexng]

Concerning the 3D print, you are in the wrong direction. This speeds up the manufacturing process of injection molds and many other minor things, as blanks and accelerate the process. So I do not support your skepticism. 3D - printing and in our aircraft industry is tightly used. The finished parts printed on these printers for use in real airplanes are out of the question, at least for now, but just for organizing a flexible production line or flexible production.

[Basileus]

The plane, dubbed the "Ghost Bird", is considered one of the best stealth aircraft in the world thanks to Chinese 3D printing technology.

This implies that printing will give an advantage to the fighter itself, and not simplify the work of the manufacturer. Either the translation is incorrect, or the Chinese have advanced well in 3D printing.

[Chervonets]

Well, it's even very good, which is not on Russian technology ...

[patsantre]

This is very bad. So, we have learned ourselves and now they do not depend on anyone.

[VAS 84]

If China can achieve the purchase of 117C thrust vector engines in Russia. And if they can’t? China, of course, is the 2nd economy in the world, but they have the same problems as in the USSR with the automobile industry (they can copy and create not). Something I doubt that the aircraft engine can be printed on a 3D printer.

[Chervonets]

Of course, I think the F-22 is a good aircraft, but with major flaws.
As far as my understanding allows me to reason:
The disadvantage of PAK FA is a LITTLE high visibility, which is largely leveled by the somewhat better airborne radar.
Advantages to the F-22 --- Better maneuverability, the engines are significantly spaced, which means more tenacious, "smart" skin and (like?) Practically all-round visibility.
Question 1. The F-22 has to constantly and constantly apply renewed radar absorbing coating. What about PAK FA? Or does the sheathing material itself work?
Question 2. As far as I heard, the PAK FA radar operates at a greater number of frequencies, so the F-22 radio stealth, which is hardly noticeable only in the centimeter range, is not suitable for the Russian fighter ???
So IMHO --- the Chinese are trying to catch up with the F-22 by radio stealth, to the detriment of other qualities. And this is very good. Who agrees?

[TS3sta3]

Pros for the F-22 - ... significantly spaced engines

f-22

[andrey682006]

Is the F-22 engine better spaced? Have you even compared a photo ...
Is the F-22 the best maneuverability? PAK FA has all-angle engines with UVT, while F-22 has only one plane.
And there’s nothing to sniff out about military secrets ...

[Basarev]

The PAK FA is clearly superior to the F-22 in the field of super-maneuverability. And at the same time, it is already undergoing state tests, while the Chinese have just decided to make their own planes - they are not even designed

[Basileus]

And J-20 and J-31 what? They flew only a little later PAK FA.

[Chervonets]

Quote: VAS 84

If China can achieve the purchase of 117C thrust vector engines in Russia. And if they can’t? China, of course, is the 2nd economy in the world, but they have the same problems as in the USSR with the automobile industry (they can copy and create not). Something I doubt that the aircraft engine can be printed on a 3D printer.

And who will give them to them?
Well, maybe only after 10 years. The engine of the first stage.

[VAS 84]

So they signed an agreement to supply 24 SU-35. They will remove them from ours and put them on their own.

[fzr1000]

When did they sign it? Discussed, yes, but have you already signed it?

[VAS 84]

Russia and China signed a framework agreement for the supply of 24 Su-35 multi-functional fighters and four Amur Project 1650 submarines (export version of Project 677 Lada). If the agreement is implemented, it will be the largest supply of Russian weapons to China in the last ten years.

[slvevg]

If the agreement is implemented, it will be the largest supply of Russian weapons to China in the last ten years.

the largest and, I think, the last major ...

[VAS 84]

It is possible that in the future Russian-Chinese cooperation in the field of armaments will be expanded - China plans to purchase Russian S-400 anti-aircraft mounts, 117C heavy engines, as well as an Il-76 transport aircraft and an Il-78 tanker.

[fzr1000]

Maybe the whole thing is this?

The Su-35BM program was launched 10 years ago with the aim of producing an aircraft for export. It was funded solely by Sukhoi and its partners, the model of the new aircraft was shown at the Dubai Air Show 2003 in November. It was expected that the Su-35 would be ready in 2007, and it was viewed as a “transitional” type of fighter, allowing the company to save prior to the production of the 5 generation fighter PAK FA / T-50. But its prospects and the role within the company have radically changed compared to the original plans.

The requirement of the Russian Air Force to equip 30 squadrons, each of which should have X-NUMX T-12 fighters, is now considered as unattainable, primarily because of the cost of the fifth-generation fighter. If the Air Force wants to have 50 squadrons, they need a simpler and cheaper aircraft as a supplement to the T-30. The second aircraft must also meet the requirements of the Russian Air Force, including a range of 50 km, which excludes the possibility of purchasing a light fighter. The evolution of Russian plans affected the fate of the Su-3000, which was chosen as an addition to the T-35, and this paved the way for large domestic orders.

When UAC President Mikhail Poghosyan was recently asked about the future of the Su-35, he confirmed that it would be modernized and manufactured for many years along with the PAK FA as its cheaper alternative. Poghosyan refused to clarify the price difference between the two aircraft, but according to him, the fifth generation fighter will "cost no more than $ 100 million, while the Su-35 should be" cheaper in order to maintain competitiveness in the market. "

The concept of a mixed fleet of expensive / cheap aircraft led to the fact that in August 2009 of the Russian Air Force ordered 48 Su-35, which should be delivered to 2015, worth 1,4 billion rubles. (45 million dollars) each. The contract was followed by complaints from the aviation industry that the price of the aircraft was below its cost. In accordance with the State Armaments Program, another batch of 48 Su-35, which should be supplied in 2016-2020, will be ordered a little later.

[Very old]

Thank God - not Yeltsin’s times,
signers not yet in sight

[Chervonets]

And on our SU-35 will put engines from the J-25 ???

[VAS 84]

Maybe they are even though the SU-35 is on the inside. In addition to engines, it has a lot of DELICIOUS things.
Discussed, yes, but have you already signed it?
Sooner or later they will sign, but if not, then the Chinese "friends" will be very offended. I think our leadership will delay this moment as much as possible, but they will not be able to "DO THE LAST CHINESE WARNING" forever.

[fzr1000]

And here's another

However, at least three circumstances also indicate the existence of serious restrictions for repeating the history of 10-15 years ago. First, do not forget that the copying happened after the sale in the PRC of the license for the Su-27 and the huge support that the specialists from the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Komsomolsk Aviation Plant provided the Chinese with the deployment of licensed production of the J-11. Secondly, the Chinese have still not been able to create a high-quality copy of the AL-31F engine and are forced to import significant quantities of these engines from Russia. Finally, it is only today that it becomes known what a huge amount of information and technologies concerning the Su-27, Su-33 and AL-31F engines Beijing received from Ukraine. Taking into account the fact that the current contract for the Su-35 does not imply the sale of a license so far, the aircraft itself is equipped with a much more complex engine "product 117C", and small-scale Ukrainian aviation businessmen who are ready to sell their own mother for two kopecks, fortunately, have no access to the technology of the Su-35, cloning this machine will take too long.

In this context, the hypothesis that the history of the Su-27 export program to the PRC is reproduced to some extent is more likely. As you know, at first in 1992, China received a batch of 26 units, then bought the second tranche of 22 aircraft, almost simultaneously acquired a license to produce about 100 fighters, and finally ordered in 1999 another 28 two-seat Su-27UBK. After the initial order for 30 aircraft, the Su-38 acquisition program was then expanded to 100 units. Thus, in the case of the Su-35, with an optimistic scenario, at least one more batch will be ordered, and possibly a license to build a significant - up to 100 units - number of such vehicles will be ordered. In the worst case, the Chinese will limit themselves to one batch and will continue to buy only engines.
Regarding the impact on the market of military aircraft in South Asia and Southeast Asia, it is logical to assume that the appearance of such powerful fighters in the arsenal of the PLA air force will at least stimulate further purchases of Russian aircraft by Vietnam and Indonesia. Moreover, there is no sense in continuing the acquisition of the previous Su-27 and Su-30MK2 models, and in order to fend off the growing Chinese air power, it will also be necessary to move on to the purchase of Su-35. Moreover, the presence of the Su-35 among the Chinese creates the prerequisites for the promotion of the fifth generation T-50 fighter on the SEA market. Finally, it can be assumed that the natural reaction of India will be the acceleration of the FGFA project and, possibly, the increase in the number of aircraft proposed for purchase, as well as the acceleration of the project for the deep modernization of Su-30MKI fighters, possibly with the installation of radars with AFAR on them. Thus, local, it would seem, the purchase of a relatively small batch of 24 fighters will have significant geopolitical, commercial and market consequences.

[Algor73]

Finally, only today it is becoming known that a huge amount of information and technology regarding the Su-27, Su-33 and AL-31F engines was received by Beijing from Ukraine. And what does Ukraine have to do with it? What information, especially technology was transferred to Beijing from Ukraine, if Ukraine had no relation whatsoever to this engine and did not own technical documentation. If not, give a link. At one time, a prototype decked Su was sold, but it was only a prototype. After him, Russia, he sold how many aircraft to China. I do not protect businessmen from Ukraine. But in Russia there are no fewer of them, and the main technology leak nevertheless comes from Russia, since, I repeat, Ukraine does not have access to them.

[fzr1000]

The prototype deck Su-33 was not sold with an independent PRC in 2005? It was not for nothing that after that, the Russian Federation imposed an embargo on the supply of components for Sukhoi aircraft to Ukraine.

[escobar]

Ept, well, we sold the plane and you are your technology !! and you point a finger at us, whiner.

[fzr1000]

We were not selling them anything at that moment. I am for objectivity. So, myself ... waste.

[Russian sniper]

With the sale of the T-10K prototype to China by the Ukrainian side, all technical information was transferred, which included the drawings and the already developed aircraft systems. Why is this not a technology for assembling a strike complex of naval aviation? On these developments, China was able to modernize the Ukrainian prototype and make its Shenyang J-15 sea sword. By the way, in the 90s, negotiations were underway with China on the sale by Russia of four Su-33s. But Moscow refused to do so in connection with the story of copying the original version of the Su-27.

[Russian sniper]

Dear colleague, due to your scarce information content, I can tell you that everything, I repeat everything! a Soviet / Russian aircraft carrier strike fleet development program was conducted in Ukraine. The Black Sea Shipyard, the NITKA project for the training of deck pilots for naval aviation, the development of prototypes of the Yak-38/141 aircraft and, ultimately, the Su-33 / Su-33UB aircraft, for the most part, everything was carried out and everything was on native Ukrainian soil. Dear colleague, draw your own conclusions.

[SV]

it is logical to assume that the appearance of such powerful fighters in the arsenal of the PLA Air Force at least stimulates further purchases of Russian aircraft by Vietnam and Indonesia

In contrast, this will most likely lead to purchases of F35 (15,18) or French with Europeans (less likely), as level the threat by buying, similar equipment when count. correlation in favor of China - is difficult. In this situation, the purchase of NATO vehicles (albeit weaker) may carry certain preferences ....

[Basileus]

Too lazy to go to the PLA website for the screen of the second, but the one presented here is more like silent versions of the American fours than five. I think so.

[rolik]

As Lenin said, he correctly said:
- Better less, but better.
Let there be one T50 and one lightweight stealth, made in conjunction with the Indians, but the best. Than ten pieces of various stealth, but being stealth only on paper.
But the Chinese have so far come out as in a joke about the secretary, who prints 8000 characters per minute ...... the truth is such nonsense)))))

[VadimSt]

With such a population and reckless copying of everything and everything, one can also gain superiority over the Pacific Ocean on stools.
Every joke has some truth!

[propolsky]

The Shenyang Corporation preferred to use the American F-23 Raptor as the basis for the J-22, which should provide the Chinese Air Force and Navy with more chances to win possible battles with American aircraft.

How is this more likely? An airplane that has not been able to fly normally for so many years cannot be a good basis! However, we already have excellent airplanes, but they have a look ...

[Basileus]

F-22 has been flying for a long time. Moreover, it has already been released as much as they wanted and discontinued)

[Chervonets]

In fact, they released (even counting prototypes) less than half of the planned

[Basileus]

From the planned initially. Since the program is closed, then it’s not necessary anymore) The conversation was generally about the fact that it will not fly at all)

[Zlodeey]

F-22 has been flying for a long time. Moreover, it has already been released as much as they wanted and discontinued)

In 2006, it was planned to purchase 384 aircraft to equip seven squadrons of combat alert, in 2008 the procurement plan was reduced to 188 aircraft, 127 of which were already built. The economic crisis and the enormous cost of the aircraft forced the US government to abandon the purchase of this aircraft and focus on the F-35 program.

[Chervonets]

Quote: Vadivak

Quote: ..

The 25th generation J-4 (according to Chinese classification), designed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is capable of shooting down the F-22 in a few seconds.

Well, yes, write from the parking at the airport

They calculate the time since the attack of the attacking F-22 rocket

[Vadivak]

Quote: Chervonets

They calculate the time since the attack of the attacking F-22 rocket

Thank you, this is understandable, advertising is advertising. But a group of German pilots flying their last Typhoon fighter, found out during an air battle simulation how to shoot down an F-22.

[Chervonets]

Quote: TS3sta3

Pros for the F-22 - ... significantly spaced engines

f-22

Sorry, I slurred up.
I didn't mean "plus the F-22"
A "plus PAK FA to F-22"
The missing noun has changed the whole meaning of my proposal)))

[disa]

.... "Drying" with a "ass" from a "raptor" and a flashlight from the F-35, air intakes are generally stylized as stealth technology. To me .. the delitant and that can be seen ... I wonder if they pumped this hybrid in a wind tunnel well ??? Or as always ... 3D modeling, with 3D design and 3D rendering without full dimensional layout. I wouldn’t know what (modify it with a file), even here, tables and chairs drawn in 3D, cut and bent on laser equipment are obtained, I wouldn’t say anything. And then stealth technologies and the 5th generation of fighters ... Article plus in fact, why minus pictures is not clear ...

[mountain]

I already feel myself as a Chinese, it seems that they are on the site. Such propaganda, as in the Soviet Union in the news, when collecting grain in the bins of the motherland. And the next year they bought from the USA and Canada.
Instead of selling them engines, what will they do?

[mountain]

I knew that there would be such a reaction, but I can’t get rid of feelings.
Happy New Year to all!

[Leshka]

let's see what they get

[Salavatsky Ministry of Emergency Situations]

The article is named incorrectly. It is correct to call it not "China is developing ...", but "China is copying ..."

[Basileus]

And where is the copy in the model in the picture?

[Basarev]

Or rather, China decided to copy

[Pacifist]

Spaced with the body, not aligned at the corners of the leading edge with the edge of the wing of the PGO, bye stealth.
PGO in general, by definition, is goodbye stealth.

[Basarev]

But the PAK FA succeeded! Yes, the T-50 PGO is a little inconspicuous, but it is, and there is steep stealth.

[Wiruz]

Of course, I am for the friendship of peoples, but you should not give an advantage to such a potential adversary as China. Knowing their perseverance, ideology, and most importantly, their numbers, there is no guarantee that tomorrow these Chinese Raptors will not fly towards Russia.

[Basarev]

There is a guarantee. S-300, and even more so S-400 do not even care about the coolest stealth.

[Odysseus]

The Chinese are masters of drowning truth in a mass of believable lies. Nobody will develop 4 types of stealth fighters. This is not even within the capabilities of the People's Republic of China. Perhaps this is pure disinformation, and perhaps the Chinese will completely fool everyone about what version of their stealth aircraft is real and will be intended for the Air Force. PLA.

[RuslanNN]

something similar to the series "Iran has developed drones, locators, missiles, fighters with stealth technology," etc., but no one has seen them. How interesting are they with engines for fifth-generation aircraft?

[lpd1]

It is also said that the 25th generation J-4 (Chinese classification), designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is capable of shooting down an F-22 in a matter of seconds. The plane, dubbed the "Ghost Bird", is considered one of the best stealth aircraft in the world thanks to Chinese 3D printing technology

Most likely, we are talking about sets that can be bought in the markets of "Shanghai" ...

[Cherdak]

"Soyuzmultfilm" presents: "Ghost Bird" and other amphibians

[kafa]

all in the name of Sukhenky cry their VZHIK-1 (PAKFA), even the Chinese stopped copying

[rolik]

Quote: kafa

Even the Chinese have stopped copying

Because it doesn’t work, the 22nd turned out to be easier to slam)))))))))

[Kir]

Yes, it’s not like kafa from those who are offended that the united corporation is headed not by their representative, but by the representative of the school of P.O. Sukhoi, they also whine on helicopters.
By the way, here one on the site agreed to the fact that he was holding closed documents on the PAK FA, and supposedly it follows that the T-50 can not fly at supersonic sound due to unreliable design
That's what I talked about
VO dated 3.12.2013 "Development of the PAK FA program"
Rav-Seren
I believe that this is unlikely. I read the conclusion of specialists from TsAGI - in the current layout and in the current materials, when switching to supersonic, the probability of a case fracture is more than 50 percent. It is not surprising that during the flight only 1 time and then for a short time PAK FA overcame the sound.
There is an assumption that if someone else did this, well, if it weren’t for the Deferambs, then at least it would have been said that we were not so far behind.

[rolik]

Quote: Kir

that he was holding closed documents on the PAK FA,

And is he still at large and still alive ???? Yes, and prints it here ???? Truly inscrutable ways of our competent authorities))))))))

[kafa]

oh damn the Chinese copyists they have everything tyrennoe and everything is bad. Yes, if you look maliciously squinting. but in space they are already present in the nuclear club for a long time mechanical engineering, including high-precision, why do I need to tell you all this I don’t understand ..... but I understood the advantages of printers and mattresses and they’ll already use it do not defeat the enemy in battle, do not defeat him.

[michajlo]

Hello Andrey!

I agree with you.

According to the logic of our self-confident shapkozakidatel, Russian, American and European rockets fly into space from the territory of China, and a "Chinese moon rover", which was lent to China, whether Russia or the United States, rolls out every month ???

China is rapidly advancing, repeating the achievements of the USSR in 30-60 years.
And if this fact is unpleasant for us to Soviet patriots, then it will not cease to be true from this.

And we are behind and we are all boasting about the legacy of the FORMER UNION, 90% of which our LEADERS and ENTREPRENEURS sold for a pittance and ate !!!

It's time to cry and sober up faster and not brag like an "80-year-old grandfather" about what kind of Cossack he was in his 20 years (that is, 60 years ago) ...

[Kir]

The fact is unpleasant to me only in the context that China can soon make us, and in this to a great extent "our merits", and it all started with Khrushchev with his slandering of J.V. Stalin and went off, then the Chinese became study and entih, and this is forgiven not only teaching subjects but also often assimilation of an alien culture, although China has sufficient immunity to foreign isms, if they are not close to him, but still. So it turns out that we have helped ourselves, or rather the elites have helped us!
With regards to the level of patriotism, then everything is quite clear, if you let the People think about why, because he can also demand from "his own" in full !!!

[kafa]

Quote: lpd1

It is also said that the 25th generation J-4 (Chinese classification), designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is capable of shooting down an F-22 in a matter of seconds. The plane, dubbed the "Ghost Bird", is considered one of the best stealth aircraft in the world thanks to Chinese 3D printing technology

Most likely, we are talking about sets that can be bought in the markets of "Shanghai" ...

GUESS WHERE THIS EQUIPMENT IS GOING TO! WELL NOT IN DETROIT JE ...

[clidon]

You better guess where it is developed and where the key chips and nodes are made. Not in Shanghai.

[igor.borov775]

Why were the article so excited that it was just voiced by what the Chinese are dreaming of, but this does not mean that it is just as long as the model is a big difference, Space technology aircraft manufacturing should be attributed here and apl is an alloy of the science of technical capabilities, All these products are very knowledge-intensive, you won’t master them, but for China they are very young they didn’t have a lot to do, they take the first steps, I must admit without major mistakes, now they are gaining experience working out technologies are looking for a solution to the problems that always arise when practicing prototypes, We are well aware that such products do not are done in a few months, more than one prototype machine will be built before they can create something, Calm down, you need time to make something happen, True, after the jade bunny they are sure that they can do what others do, This can be envied,

[kafa]

I wildly apologize for the New Year's mess, many lose their heads. But the holidays will be weekdays. In some regions, winter may come and we will see in our windows a guest worker circling after the snowflakes seeking to clear the sidewalks of snow and a bit of ice

[chunga-changa]

A beautiful airplane is drawn. Our front, American ass, a cross between a giraffe and a rhino.)

[Jurkovs]

The development of several models at once is a sign of a certain confusion, it is not an inability to bring all the technologies together, it is simply the absence of some key technologies.

[Basileus]

Yes, if we now operate only two types of front-line fighters - based on T-10 and 9-12, and in the future, a maximum of two more - T-50 and 1.XX, then the Chinese have such a huge zoo on the horizon - mom do not be sad. I do not know how they are going to deal with all this heap of junk, Sukhoi clones, modern own developments such as J-10 and a scattering of promising "fives" - J-20, J-23/25 and J-31, a model of at least one of which (saber J-23) resembles rather a modern modification of American 4th generation fighters (a kind of analogs of the Silent Hornet and Silent Eagle) with elements of stealth than the fifth. By the way, in this light, it is likely that the same 23rd is being developed not for itself, but for export as a competitor to the same Silent or Su-35.

[Wiruz]

What are 9-12 and 1.XX? Enlighten please.

[Basileus]

Project 9-12 is the MiG-29. And 1.XX is something that, I believe, will be developed by the MiG under the program of the 5th generation light fighter, which Rogozin spoke about.

[Wiruz]

And thank you!

[clidon]

One can talk arbitrarily about Chinese aviation, but so far the reality is that they are not able to make a 4th generation fully competitive car. And projects are the future, and so far it is not clear whether they are bright or not.

[kafa]

invisible aircraft stupidly does not happen radar operating ranges or operating modes and voila F-117 Yugoslavia are changing

[clidon]

There are no invisibles, but hardly noticeable. And in most ranges.

[svp67]

The Chinese aviation industry is rapidly developing stealth planes, according to israeldefense.com. J-20 and J-31 are under development, and the PLA website also includes J-23 and J-25, which should take US dominance over the Pacific.

Oh, the Chinese comrades are striding widely, as if without pants ...

[kafa]

Quote: svp67

The Chinese aviation industry is rapidly developing stealth planes, according to israeldefense.com. J-20 and J-31 are under development, and the PLA website also includes J-23 and J-25, which should take US dominance over the Pacific.

Oh, the Chinese comrades are striding widely, as if without pants ...

gentlemen Pakistanis buy and still cherish the hope to beat India

[svp67]

Quote: kafa

gentlemen Pakistanis buy and still cherish the hope to beat India

When there’s nothing more to do, this is the only thing you can console yourself ...

[Roman 1977]

So far, the only Chinese SERIAL aircraft more or less in line with modern requirements, the J-10, created on the basis of Israeli developments in
program "Lavi". The basic layout decisions of the Israeli fighter were the basis for the project of a new Chinese aircraft, designated J-10. In the late 1980s - early 1990s, the program underwent further changes: Russia was involved in the creation of the J-10. In particular, it was decided to equip the new aircraft with the Russian turbojet engine "A. Lyulka-Saturn" AL-31F, which is also installed on the Su-27 fighters of the Chinese Air Force, which entailed a number of significant changes in the design of the aircraft, which was previously designed, obviously, under one The Chinese Air Force only confirmed the existence of the J-10 on December 29, 2006, although the aircraft had been in development for over 20 years and had been in service for three years. For many years, the Chinese denied the very existence of the fighter, despite the presence of a large number of photographs and detailed information on its on-board systems. The main disadvantage of the J-10 is considered to be its short flight range. In 2005, two prototypes were equipped with fuel receivers fixedly mounted on the starboard side in the forward fuselage. Based on test results, the air refueling system is approved for use on production aircraft. The aircraft is constantly being improved - this is how information exchange systems appeared. Sparka is a full-fledged combat aircraft, but is mainly used for training and training pilots. It is possible that the twin will serve as the basis for the development of a specialized attack aircraft.

J-10A PLA Air Force of China

J-10B PLA Air Force of China

[Roman 1977]

And remember how long the development of another Chinese aircraft of its own design of the multi-role fighter-bomber JH-7 (FBC-1) Flying Leopard lasted. For an aircraft that entered service in the 7st century, the JH-70A, aka Flying Leopard, looks rather archaic. Both in aerodynamics and technology, this plane seemed to emerge from the 30s. last century. In its appearance, you can easily discern the features of the "Jaguar", shock modifications of the "Phantom" or "Tornado" - famous in the past classic fighter-bombers, now finally going into reserve. This is not surprising if you remember that the creation of the machine began exactly then, more than 1973 years ago. The beginning of designing a new H-7 bomber for the aviation of the PRC army and navy in 632 coincided with the entry into the final stage of the Yugoslav-Romanian fighter-bomber program, which had the Anglo-French Jaguar as a role model. In those years, Yugoslavia, Romania, and China were united by a common hostility to the USSR, therefore the mutual exchange of military technologies was very intensive. The Europeans also encouraged "the weakest links of the Iron Curtain" to the best of their ability. For the Yugoslav-Romanian program SOKO / "Opao" Great Britain sold Rolls-Royce "Viper" Mk.633 and XNUMX engines and a license for their production, ejection seats, elements of avionics (for each country - its own) and so on.
Nevertheless, the Chinese took the main decisions of the Yugoslav-Romanian design and reincarnated them in the guise of a two-engine vehicle with a radar, recalculating and increasing it by about one and a half times for a new power plant. The crew - the pilot and the operator of the weapon system - were placed one behind the other, and the operator, for a better view, was placed higher. The wing was adopted as a high swept wing with a break in the leading edge, an aerodynamic canine and a ridge. For self-defense on wingtips, pylons for air-to-air missiles were provided for the Mirage F1 type. The cannon armament for the N-7 was kindly offered by the Yugoslavs, who mastered the licensed production of the Soviet 23-mm double-barreled gun GSH-23L.
Taking advantage of its status as "the main fighter against Soviet imperialism in the Far East," China was able to purchase from the same Great Britain four times more powerful Rolls-Royce Spey Mk.202 / 203 turbofan engines than Viper. In 1975, China received several Spey 202 engines for testing and production development. In general, the characteristics of the aircraft did not satisfy the military, in connection with which attempts were made to acquire a radar and a more powerful engine in the United States. The subsequent deterioration of relations with the West made it possible to understand that, despite the shortcomings of the JH-7, it remains the only Chinese multipurpose attack aircraft. Until 2003, China could not master the production of a copy of the Spey 202 engine. To continue the serial production of the JH-7 and replacement of engines that have exhausted their resource, in 2001, an additional 90 Speyevs were purchased from the availability of the British Air Force, taken from the British F-4K. Only for the JH-7A, a licensed copy was finally ready - the Chinese engine WS-9 Qinling.
The JH-7 program developed in deep secrecy. For the first time "live" the plane could be seen in the reports of the Chinese state television from a series of exercises of the PLA in 1995-1996. during the so-called "Taiwan Strait Crisis". The official public debut of the aircraft took place at the air show in Zhuhai in 1998. That is, 25 (!) Years passed from the moment of development to the adoption of the aircraft.

JH-7

[Basileus]

ABOUT! Thank you) I always considered the JH-7 a classmate of the Su-24, developed around the same time. And here it turns out the story is more interesting, but I was only partially right)

[Roman 1977]

Happy New Year dear Radmir: compare yourself

Sioux 24M
Length: 24,594 m (with LDPE)
Empty weight: 22300 kg
Curb weight: 23700 kg
Normal takeoff weight: 33500 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 39700 kg
Normal landing weight: 24500 kg
Maximum landing weight: 28000 kg
Fuel mass in internal tanks: kg 9800
Fuel tank capacity: l 11860
Powerplant: 2 × TRDDF AL-21F-3
Unforced traction: 2 × 7800 kgf (76,5 kN)
Afterburner: 2 × 11200 kgf (110 kN)
Fighting radius: 560 km (at a height of 200 m with PTB and normal. Combat load)
Ferry range: 2850 km (with PTB)
Service ceiling: 11500 m

JH-7
Normal takeoff weight: 21 500 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 30 000 kg
Powerplant: 2 × turbofan Xi'an WS9 Qinling (copy Rolls Royce RB.168 Spey Mk.202)
Thrust: 2 × 55,83 kN (2 × 91,26 kN afterburner)
Maximum speed: 1800 km / h
Cruising speed: 900 km / h
Combat radius: 900-1650 km
Ferrying range: 3650 km
Ceiling: 16 000 m
And this taking into account the fact that Su-24 was created on 25 years earlier than the Chinese JH-7

[Basileus]

Yes, thanks, I already looked) That's why I thought that they were created at about the same time.

[Roman 1977]

It is interesting to see the evolution of the Chinese aircraft industry:
Shenyang J-5 (F-5) - copy of the MiG-17

Shenyang J-6 (F-6) - copy of the MiG-19

Q-5 (A-5) Fantan- upgraded MiG-19, the first Chinese tactical nuclear carrier aircraft

Chengdu J-7 - copy of the MiG-21

after this, the breakdown of relations between China and the USSR, and on the basis of the MiG-23 purchased in Egypt and information about the Su-15, J-8II appeared

And now, when China has "grasped" our modern and Western technologies, J-10 and JH-7 have appeared

[lexx2038]

Quote: tronin.maxim

Let the new destroyers develop at least how much, but without our engines they cannot achieve their goals! So here a lot depends on Russia! Thank god su-35 we did not sell them!

How not sold? We are doing even better for them - we are starting to teach them how to build airplane engines, they are already doing great. Soon you will have to meet "dear" friends. "... and the yellow rivers will flood the Russian plains ..." - I don't remember from whom

[nbnbnb]

After this article, it seems that soon the Chinese will fly on flying saucers and we on deeply modernized corn maize.

[VKabanov]

"If China can achieve the purchase of 117C thrust vector engines from Russia, then the maneuverability of the J-23 will also be improved," the report said.

Great Google translator!

"Achieve the purchase of engines with a thrust vector" either earlier reached the purchase of engines without a vector, or without thrust

[edeligor]

Analysts believe that the development and production cycle of an aircraft from the zero cycle can be mastered only by 4 countries of the world, China is not one of them (with all due respect to this country) They can declare anything, especially the victorious statement about progress in 3D design. Where are they without outside help?
Today, on the occasion, I watched a movie about the production of MI-26. The colossal production cycle, thousands of components, dozens of factories serving production, etc. Those who have not seen this will not understand.

[Cherdak]

Quote: edeligor

statement of progress in 3D design.

nothing to say here, maybe ...

[Cherdak]

Quote: edeligor

statement on progress in 3D design

... and 3D printing

[igor.borov775]

Hi, very good analysts, It was they who dragged us into the position in which our aviation industry found themselves, it’s good that they took up it, After reading the above, I’m worried about what they were heating up, Now it's a century of information and you can look at this opus with a smile called research , Let's see simply and without tantrums, I’m talking about fighting vehicles, 1 Swedes can of course build, 2 Germans can but they invest in a single strike machine that create several countries, And they can do 3, The British can build can, 4 The French can can, 4 Italians can, 5Americans and Canadians are tied to creating machines that are common for these countries, 6Bezil has begun to build its own cars and is making great efforts to develop its aviation industry, A new aviation power is appearing on the horizon, which is still timid, but the country is making huge efforts to develop this industry we will soon learn about its success is India It still has a long way to go but the main thing is it It is nagging, Now China is building nothing from scratch, do not believe illusions, Builds, Gains experience accumulates knowledge and technology solves a lot of problems that arise along this path, But it is developing its science intensively, It will give an impetus to the development of its aviation, but science does not immediately gives the result, but it will be. Moreover, the COMCON list doesn’t work easier for him. It wasn’t easy for the Union to search for building even the simplest technologies, we still have some technologies, but in 5-7 years all this will lose innovation and relevance if they are not brought to the final result, I’m talking about the beginning of the reform of the Russian Open Society of Russian Federation, We already know in our own skin what it all translates into, Yes, and the failed ACADEMIC- economist already chopped off not weakly from science, I’m talking about CHUBAIS, Oh, he will surely move the most advanced branches of science,

[Hug]

The J-23 fighter (see figure), created by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, is no longer based on Russian technology, the report says. The Shenyang corporation chose to use the American F-23 Raptor as the basis for the J-22, which should provide the Chinese Air Force and Navy with more chances to win in possible fights with American aircraft.

In this regard, the question: does this mean that the F-22 is better than the (PAK FA) T-50?
If anyone can explain these words, then. do it.

[dimon-media]

no longer based on Russian technology
This is the first.

If China can achieve the purchase of thrust vector 117C engines in Russia, the maneuverability of the J-23 will also be improved
This is the second.

How to combine these two quotes ?? I also can’t understand where the CHINESE plane is, if the keel forms, STELS technologies are American, and the engines are Russian ?? The Chinese never learned how to make their planes.

[homosum20]

China is a dumb, but very hardworking and productive country. A thief is a national hero (they robbed the whole world). No wonder the thieves are shot from a machine gun - they know their weaknesses. But talent from this will not increase. Close China for 20 years selling know-how - it will slide into feudalism. The consequence of Confucianism. (bureaucratic ideology)

[Kulneff2009]

But they will, narrow-film. Ours would be so fussed!

[edeligor]

Quote: Kulneff2009

But they will, narrow-film. Ours would be so fussed!

It will not happen! Read the dissimilar comments carefully and draw a conclusion.

[edeligor]

Very interesting! It turns out that on our (I hope that this is not a stranger) site, there are PLA fans. To myself, I respect the Chinese army, but only as long as our interests coincide!
PS Though kill, I will never believe in Their technological advantage over us !!!!

[Kir]

And you will study their History more closely and understand a lot about Them, but at the same time you will understand about the vaunted West, with regards to the advantage, well, look at Japan, but forgive me for a long time that this community has developed in many respects on the assimilation of someone else’s, and industrial espionage developed, so this does not prevent her from citing an example. Then we will not forget about the cyclical nature of History, so everything is more than natural, but that’s why we take the degrading West as an example, it’s just at least surprising.

[fedorovith]

What to talk about? You just need to think about it. You can develop a lot, but bring it to the end ..? Remember ..

[mad]

If China can achieve the purchase of thrust vector 117C engines in Russia, the maneuverability of the J-23 will also be improved, the report said.

It’s enough for the Chinese to buy one engine. At first, even the resource and characteristics will be worse, but this is a matter of time. You can’t sell them engines!

[edeligor]

Useless! The production of material, the same turbine blade, is a very complex and high-tech process. They need to steal dozens of know-how, stored behind dozens of "secret" labels

[Cherdak]

but what dreamers!

[Basileus]

Well, great) Knock down on the pictures of the Japs, in the end, not ours)

[APASUS]

The article has two wonderful places, I want to pay a little attention.
China took not the Russian, but the American plane as the basis for the new aircraft.
The question begs itself. What could they take besides the outer contours of the fuselage? Everything else will have to be invented by myself ........ well, or steal!
Again this wonderful 3D printer for the manufacture of aircraft parts from titanium.
I don’t believe more than one word, the fairy tale is too simple, but for some reason we didn’t learn how to do it ourselves, we have to buy from the Russians.

[realstrannik]

the first flight of the 5th T-50 in the Khabarovsk Territory

[120352]

I don’t even know how to relate to the appearance of new aircraft in China, as a result of theft or is it globalization?

[Andrey44]

Yes, by any volume. No doubt. We RUSSIANS are the best. And even now we are angry.
What are they bringing up? Are they checking?
Kazan

[rumpeljschtizhen]

let them write the Internet tolerates

[Ivan Tarasov]

China is the US gravedigger.
Good luck to our brothers!

[scientist]

The main advantage of China is that they are much more successful in fighting corruption and agents of influence of foreign intelligence services. Even Chinese emigrants in other countries somehow manage to work in the interests of China. This experience must be very carefully studied and adopted, otherwise we face a serious technical and economic lag despite the huge reserves of hydrocarbons.

[crambol]

Quote: 120352

I don’t even know how to relate to the appearance of new aircraft in China, as a result of theft or is it globalization?

In my firm belief, this is the result of the creation of a SCHOOL of aircraft design thought. And it doesn’t matter how it started, with theft or with the purchase of other people’s samples. So it was, is and will be. Remember Tupolev and many other creators of military equipment.

[samoletil18]

I was on NG (Chinese) in Hainan. There they have programs for the holiday, like we have on Soviet TV, about the achievements of the past year. And, moreover, they drive in circles all holidays. I don’t know Chinese, but there are a lot of militaristic reports, a lot about industry. There was also a big story there at the time about the production of jet engines. They work in white coats. Lots of equipment. Some kind of machine is making blades for turbines. They are measuring and comparing something. Somehow it doesn’t seem to me that engines are a problem for them for 10 years. They work. And whoever fails to cope will be shot - the labor camps have been cancelled.
The island itself is also militarized. Helicopters, planes, sailors - these train even during the New Year holidays. You drive past the airfield, and there are An-12, An-26, Mi-8, well-maintained, as if from scratch. Then it dawned on them that they produce them themselves.

[rtutaloe]

Is the aircraft being designed already recognized as the best and will shoot down a competitor in a few seconds? Ha ha ha. Fairy tales for suckers. You build first, and then you will boast)))

[Chervonets]

Well, this is probably the performance characteristics.
From there they dance:
Empty weight - 22 kg.
Flight range - unlimited
Max speed is Mach 10, minimum speed is the ability to hover
Turn - 1,5 sec
Max altitude - Earth orbit. Ability to walk at ultra-low altitude (1,5 m) at a speed of 2500 km/h
Stealth in all ranges as from a swan feather
Autonomous
Armament: battery of the Chinese analogue of the S-300 on board, 20 tons of aerial bombs, automatic 100 mm cannon.
With a cost of no more than 1 million yuan per copy.
It's easier to fantasize. Now let them sculpt...

[Kir]

Forgive Chervonets, but someone’s arithmetic score was not just 2-, but -2, or the highest flight of irony. And besides, there is a question, has anyone even seen this opus to which they are referring, or maybe there was information on the internet. By the way, the US people say a lot of excellent things about their own people, but in fact, what do they have?

[Chervonets]

the highest flight of irony
a hint that a plane that is not even on the drawings cannot be the best
there can only be imputed performance characteristics
but it’s one thing to impute, and another to achieve
This is exactly what my post was about. You can also change the parameters of the atmospheric-space destroyer...

[Kir]

I repeat, has anyone seen the text? Maybe it’s not there at all, or it’s said differently.

[Pollang]

We must be afraid that they will someday make candy out of shit and it’s clearly not worth discounting.

[queen]

not liking show business... but after listening to Leonid Yakubovich today... he speaks the truth.

[maksim]

China will take volume but not quality

[Stanislav]

Dear forum users. I am very pleased to read comments, the point of view of specialists and competent people. Thank you all very much.
Happy New Year to all!
I very often read about China in a derogatory manner, but let me disagree with you. Let me start by saying that I have been working in China for more than 5 years and I can say that the progress of this country is simply amazing. Frankly speaking, when I got to China, it seemed like I was in the Great Soviet Union with all its advantages. Yes, and I still think that this was and remains my country.
First of all, I would like to note that, as they say, “if there were bones, the meat would grow.” And what is typical for China is that they do not bother with what the West and the rest of the brethren will say... They create and create a lot.
And remember the history of our country (USSR) at the end of the 20s of the last century. The country was devastated by the civil war, and almost all of the gold was used to purchase equipment and attract specialists from America, Germany, etc. I read the memoirs of these specialists - many at that time spoke very disparagingly about Russia and the nation. But history has shown that if there is an idea, a goal and a firm hand, then any plans come true, and even obvious opponents of the Soviet Union in the person of Churchill noted the greatness of our country and leader (Stalin), “...who took over the country with a plow and left with an atomic bomb ..."
As for China, production is developing very quickly and is very diverse. Everyday example: you won't see any trucks or buses from foreign brands here. All of them are national and there are at least 10-15 varieties of brands. Yes, I agree that they are copied, but this does not negate independent production. In the end it is the survival of the fittest. And what a network of roads with magnificent interchanges is a fairy tale. And the railway expressways are all built on overpasses so that they do not interfere with the rest of the infrastructure. Yes, while the general culture and production culture are lagging behind, but the gap is closing rapidly. I can tell from the general vision of the situation living here and from the situation in the company where I work. The level of education is growing and being a technical engineer is very prestigious. My young Chinese colleagues delight me with their attitude to work.
Therefore, I believe that China’s scientific, production and mental potential should not be underestimated. If you have questions about China, I’m ready to share to the best of my knowledge.
P.S. The consumer goods that go to Russia are the substandard ones that are rejected and given to our “traders” for nothing. A quality product costs money here, even though it is made in China.

[majorserg1978]

Dear, as a person who has a certain relationship with design work, I want to say that having received a high-tech object, it cannot be copied without having a full set of design documentation (working drawings, at a minimum). Otherwise you will have to count a lot from scratch. That is, practically rediscovering it. In this case, the copy-paste sample may look similar to the original, but its characteristics will be completely different. It's like with processors. Who is stopping us from making a copy of the latest American processor? Nobody. We won't. So it is with Chinese planes.

[Stanislav]

If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese already have theirs. The problem for the whole world is that they underestimate China, considering them incapable of creation and invention. That’s why they located all their high-tech production sites in China, relying only on cheap labor. (Since I myself work in the manufacturing sector, I can say that very thoughtful people constantly offer rationalization proposals.) And the Chinese first played along with their “prostate,” and now they are slowly “twisting their arms.” And besides, who abolished industrial espionage. Now there is a trend that the Chinese who immigrated to America and other countries are starting to come back with a “package of knowledge and education”, since now in their own country they can make a name and money from this. In addition, it is already noticeable how the Chinese are beginning to be proud of their country, which was able to make such a breakthrough over the past 20 years, while we were “falling” after the collapse of our country.
In addition, one cannot discount the fact that the population is large and even take into account that they are not so inventive in percentage terms, but it still turns out that there are more smart and hardworking people than in any other country. Although if they weren’t inventive, they wouldn’t have created gunpowder)))
And the Chinese are intensively creating a design and engineering school. In fact, they are doing what was done by the USSR in the 20s - 30s, and then after the war in the last century.

[Kir]

Forgive me, but the world you are talking about, or rather the nostalgic “elites,” still live by colonial thinking, with a pronounced line about the supposed superiority of the white race, although they fully use things whose roots largely come from China and Our Mother Rus', but they cannot One must realize that we, unlike them, are Phoenixes!!! that’s all, and that’s why some of “our people” don’t understand this, well, probably the problem is that we have had prophets from a certain worldview lingering for a long time at Ideology, then what they did with Our education and so on, well, at the end we have, then what we have.

[Mista_dj]

All the comments laudatory about Ketai come from ignorance!
Either one lives in Ketai and knows everything, then another from the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ketai secretly photographs reports.
In my opinion, there are no people here who truly understand what R&D is, and if there are, they skillfully hide.

I’m by no means trying to become a PLA analysis specialist, but most people understand that the Ketais will be able to create a 5th generation aircraft in at least 15 years.
And at this time, in decent air forces, the 7e will already be “taking wing” ...

If it were all that simple: stole, sketched, copied - the Sukhoi Design Bureau and the MiGs, Dassault and Saab would have done this a long time ago, 20 years ago in relation to the F22.
And this applies to absolutely everything: tanks, air defense systems, nuclear submarines, etc.

Some strange examples are given: teapots, microwave ovens, the auto industry.
You see, they built roads, overpasses with interchanges...
Who traveled on these roads!? Drivers there still don’t know the traffic rules!
In Dagestan, the movement is many times more competent...
Developing an airplane is a little more difficult than stealing a BMW.
And the Chinese cannot do this properly...

The Japanese, no one will argue: how advanced they are in all areas of industry, and Fukushima crashed - they used the technologies of our ROSATOM.
Because technologies are specific.
Decades of knowledge and development are needed.
It’s not like creating a toilet glasses with a radio receiver and microprocessor control...

Subject: with the mass - maybe they will crush you, but in everything else - the Ketats still have to run around in snoops, and quite a bit!

[Altona]

Just something to add...

[Altona]

Quote: Mista_Dj

I’m by no means trying to become a PLA analysis specialist, but most people understand that the Ketais will be able to create a 5th generation aircraft in at least 15 years.
And at this time, in decent air forces, the 7e will already be “taking wing” ...

----------------
I completely agree with you, I specifically posted a demotivator about a “jammed photocopier”, which fans of China downvoted... I’m not against China, and I also see that they have a lot of success - both in building roads and in building high-speed trains... Although in road construction, it is important to follow the technology - do not pour sand into the bitumen, it is better to place sand where it is needed - in the bottom cushion, use hard rocks of gravel and crushed stone, observe temperature and other conditions, and everything will be fine... Roads are repaired every 5- 7 years is normal... There is nothing complicated about high-speed trains either, a high-speed train from Mitsubishi or Siemens is purchased and successfully copied, the expressway is built as a dedicated road and with almost no turns, so as not to slow down...
In many matters, China does not have a design school, because in all countries scientific and technological progress was forged in research institutes, and then transferred to production, and not vice versa... And China in many issues comes from below and this is clearly visible... Even the commentator from China admitted this when he writes that in the production of turbine blades, the Chinese run around with rulers (they bought a line for blades, but they don’t know why blades of this particular profile, so they use rulers to look for linear connections, because they don’t know all the equations, and maybe not know at all)...And this is the case with them in many ways, it is clear that the design and construction of many products were made by the manufacturer without the involvement of specialists...This works for tracksuits and electric kettles, even for trucks, because their engines are mostly clones Honda or something similar, but the design was found in car dealerships... And so in many ways... Even an airplane, why such swept wings, why such fins, why such a configuration of engine blades, at what speed does it fly? In general, a sea of ​​questions without a fundamental basis and knowledge of patterns... It’s good that China is a world workshop and the amount of technology transferred there allows them to be their own mustache, plus a sea of ​​hackers capable of crashing and gutting servers with anything with their stupid requests.. .I’m not saying that I know this for sure, I’m just sharing my conjectures and reflections...Even the Chinese themselves admit this, but we have desperate forum users who know everything almost from the inside and clap for every Chinese success...Plus, Don’t forget that the Chinese are a corporate nation, there are Chinatowns all over the world and they probably have connections with the metropolis, that is, information flows from many sources, including feedback... And what about us? Which Russian designer would leak their sketches from Citroen to AvtoVAZ, for example? Nizya, a corporate crime... But the Chinese hardly feel sorry for their boys, the Chinese servers are full of pirated copies and they don’t care who judges them - the judge will have a conversation with himself, the copy machine has long lived its own life... So, yes, they have success, Shanghai is a grandiose metropolis, but the Chinese still don’t have much...

[Mista_dj]

Evgeniy, thank you for your support!
You absolutely accurately expressed my thought!
No school!!!
And when it will appear (and whether it will appear at all) is the question!
N number of years ago, while in Ketai, I visited an arms exhibition.
In a cafe, I was a participant in a spontaneous conversation with one of the “pillars” in the issue of air defense systems.
(we were talking about the S-300)
His words:

Yes, they can slam. They can even copy it exactly. But they will never shoot down!
Algorithms, friends! This is what they will never be able to accomplish without us. So they will knock down the crows

[Altona]

Regarding the 6th and 7th generation of aircraft...Who can answer a number of questions?
- At what speed will these devices fly? Much more than Mach 3?
- The following questions arise from the first:
- What will the skin be made of, will the plane heat up like crazy, and what will its cost be?
- What will the load-bearing elements be made of? Are there any materials with incredible specific strength?
- How much fuel will the engines consume and on what principles will they be built?
- Does it make sense to put a pilot in such a plane if the pilot’s overload limit is already at the top level?
- What will be the cost of such an aircraft, taking into account the above?
- What will be the tactics of using such aircraft and will these aircraft need any kind of maneuverability?
Here's roughly the first list of questions...

[Altona]

Quote: Mista_Dj

His words:
Yes, they can slam. They can even copy it exactly. But they will never shoot down!
Algorithms, friends! This is what they will never be able to accomplish without us. So they will knock down the crows

-----------------------
Here on the Russia-2 and Nauka-2.0 TV channels we were just talking about algorithms for air defense systems, there was also a conversation about the materiel being copied, and the algorithms being home-grown, almost bypass programs being used, because the source codes and principles for constructing the algorithm the Chinese don’t know, but without this, the air defense missile system turns out to be something like an operational weight and size mock-up...