Military Review

And again Schmeisser against Kalashnikov

147



No, well, the topic of the theft of intellectual property by Kalashnikov never leaves the pages. There are still individuals who, after reading the material that refutes it, immediately happily declare: “I told you! Stole! Stole! So in the article it is recognized! "

Humanly, I understand them. Well, I don’t want to admit that at the time the poorly educated sergeant of the Red Army surpassed the blond beast - the greatest gunsmith of all times and peoples.

True, I personally consider the nameless monkey, the greatest gunsmith of all times and peoples, to insert a flint hand chopped into a split stick. But this - by the way.

Hugo Schmeisser - master. But do not forget that he is not a loner, but the leader of a large creative team, and he did not shy away from borrowing.

Yes, and his talent, if you look, is very one-sided.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

From the "characteristics" of foreign specialists in the department of the chief designer of the plant No. 74 (Izhevsk, 1949) [1]:

Schmeiser Hugo Max Richord. He has no technical education. In the course of his work on projects, he showed himself as a constructor practitioner. From any design development refuses, citing the lack of special education and the inability to independently design. It cannot be used in any works of the plant.

So he is rather an organizer.

In one of the publications, retired colonel Mikhail Timoshenko claims that Schmeisser himself copied the trigger mechanism from Holek's Czech rifle ZH-29.

And again Schmeisser against Kalashnikov


From 16 December 1947 to 11 in January 1948, the research and testing range of small arms and mortar weapons of the Main Artillery Directorate of the Armed Forces (NPSMVO) of the USSR became the arena of the final stage of competitive tests of a promising machine gun.

Samples developed by M. T. Kalashnikov (AK-47), A. A. Dementyev (KB-P-410) and A. A. Bulkin (TKB-415) were provided for testing.

In 1947, each of the designers had the opportunity to hold in the hands of the brainchild of Schmeisser. It would be logical to assume that certain features of Stg. 44 will be present presented models.

But the appearance of the AK-47 does not allow to make an unequivocal conclusion about borrowing.



Assuming that AK-47 is a modified and improved Stg. 44, it is also logical to assume that the AK-46 should carry even more features of the German progenitor.

However, even AK-46 has no design features identical to Stg. 44, with the exception of the neck, where the store is inserted. And the design of the bolt carrier with a gas piston differ even more. Agree, on the basis of this talk of plagiarism look exaggerated.




The same applies to the second competitive model - TKB-415 A.A. Bulkina.




Comparing the systems of Bulkin and Kalashnikov, I am really inclined to assume that they have a common predecessor, from which, if they are not copied, the general design is taken. And such a predecessor was found. This is an automatic Sudaeva AC-44.

Automatic Sudaeva, 1-I model.



Here, if you wish, you can see some similarities with the Sturmgever, which consists in a similar overlapping of the trigger assembly and fastening the butt. But no more than that. Given that this model was developed in 1943, the Schmeisser Soudaev model, if it saw, then only the early one - MKb 42 (H).



And even more so does not resemble the MKb 42 (H) Schmeisser 2-I Sudya model. But the similarity with Kalashnikov is much more significant.



Sudayev provided the 1944 of the year for the contest in 4, which is still further away from Schmeisser’s concept, approaching, or rather, returning to the design of the pre-war Simonov and Tokarev rifles.



That is, in fact, Sudayev did not take anything from Schmeisser. But the ergonomics of Kalashnikov and Bulkin automata are clearly borrowed from the second model of Sudayev.

But only ergonomics. For the remaining nodes are sufficiently unique.

But still, it seems to me, there was, there was an automaton, which represents a frank attempt to copy the individual elements of Sturmgever. This is the third submitted to the competition machine designer Dementieva - KB-P-410.





Here the resemblance is much more noticeable. This is a separate trigger assembly; it is a form of the butt against which the return spring abuts. But here is the design of the bolt and then another. That is, borrowed only one design.

And the external similarity does not say anything. On this basis, far-reaching conclusions can only be made by a person who has never looked inside the receiver.

Although it seems to me, it is for these people that the shape of the store is key.

But most importantly, if Sturmgever is so good, why fantasize? Put it on stream, like a Zhiguli in 1972, and don’t bother!

I do not know if I convinced the remaining non-believers, but for me personally the question is clear. If we talk about the fact that Kalashnikov used someone else's experience, then most likely this is the experience of Sudayev, who was frankly neglected by Schmeisser’s experience.
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  1. svskor80
    svskor80 25 December 2013 09: 18
    +55
    I do not know if I convinced the remaining non-believers, but for me personally the question is clear. If we talk about the fact that Kalashnikov used someone else's experience, then most likely this is the experience of Sudayev, who was frankly neglected by Schmeisser’s experience.

    I agree with the author, it is impossible to hush up the false attacks on Russian inventions, otherwise over time we will really begin to consider Kalashnikov a plagiarist. In general, every such attack must be sued, if not on behalf of the state, then at least on behalf of the Izhevsk plant.
    1. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB 25 December 2013 09: 32
      +37
      The trend at that time was in this form, with machines, and still remains. If anyone has doubts about the talent of M. Kalashnikov as an original designer, then another proof is the machine gun he created, no less legendary than the machine gun PC, the Kalashnikov machine gun and its modifications PKM, PKP (Peneneg) is still the best in its classroom.
      1. makarov
        makarov 25 December 2013 09: 39
        +6
        definitely !!!
      2. ShturmKGB
        ShturmKGB 25 December 2013 09: 52
        +2
        Or maybe the Kalashnikov PC copied from another machine gun?
        1. Nayhas
          Nayhas 25 December 2013 10: 02
          +3
          ShturmKGB
          Or maybe the Kalashnikov PC copied from another machine gun?

          A team of gunsmiths worked on the PC.
      3. Very old
        Very old 25 December 2013 12: 56
        +27
        Immediately after the flight of our "Buran" in the Western media they giggled: The Soviets also fizzed the American development of the "Shuttle" before they EXTERNALLY similar.
        And they got the answer: The laws of aerodynamics are mandatory for everyone, it is they who dictate the shape and appearance of the product.
        M.T.Kalashnikov in his work rather proceeded from considerations: functionality
        And in general, it would not hurt to see his speeches on this topic - he thoroughly told everything, showed, explained
        He who has ears and eyes will hear and see
        And cockroaches have always been found
        1. Andrey57
          Andrey57 25 December 2013 16: 41
          +7
          The Buran, just like the AK, has only external resemblance - the thermal protection system is fundamentally different, the location of the marching engines is different, the thrust and life of the engines is different, there was an automatic landing system, which mattresses could only dream about, their shuttles could land only in manual mode, and the load capacity and dimensions of the cargo compartment are different.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 25 December 2013 21: 40
            +7
            With the same success, Shpagin can be accused of using Thompson's experience in creating the PCA. Kalashnikov is the lefty of his time.
        2. ytqnhfk
          ytqnhfk 25 December 2013 19: 37
          +11
          Guys are so filthy in the soul! He has not yet been buried, but on his brainchild and his PRODUCT THAT DESIGNED BY IT! He is already trying to trample and erase from our memory as a designer, and steal the pride of this man!
    2. Airman
      Airman 25 December 2013 12: 02
      +8
      Quote: svskor80
      I do not know if I convinced the remaining non-believers, but for me personally the question is clear. If we talk about the fact that Kalashnikov used someone else's experience, then most likely this is the experience of Sudayev, who was frankly neglected by Schmeisser’s experience.

      I agree with the author, it is impossible to hush up the false attacks on Russian inventions, otherwise over time we will really begin to consider Kalashnikov a plagiarist. In general, every such attack must be sued, if not on behalf of the state, then at least on behalf of the Izhevsk plant.

      If someone is haunted by the glory of Kalashnikov, this does not diminish his merits. Schmeisser himself understood this.
      1. Asgard
        Asgard 25 December 2013 13: 49
        +33
        Schmeiser and any other engineer understand that the Kalashnikov talent, kinematics and operation scheme of the device can be the same, and the dimensions, diameters, mass ratios of this are the key to reliability and reliability, and a fantastic survivability resource.
        Make the gas piston a little longer, or change the diameter in the Kamor gas engine, or the receiver’s width is narrower and ALL = this is no longer an AK machine ....

        My grandfather told me - talent, Vovka lives at the tips of his fingers, but did not understand, I was 12 when He "left" for a better world ...,
        ... but Wait, I understand when I’m doing something, typing, writing, insisting on my own))) ....
        You have to "give birth" to nurture, to mold with your hands, and then you get a MASTERPIECE.

        Mikhail Timofeevich, Peace be to Your Soul, We will defend Your Honest Name here.
        1. poquello
          poquello 25 December 2013 19: 36
          +5
          Quote: Asgard
          Schmeiser and any other engineer understand that the Kalashnikov talent, kinematics and operation scheme of the device can be the same, and the dimensions, diameters, mass ratios of this are the key to reliability and reliability, and a fantastic survivability resource.
          Make the gas piston a little longer, or change the diameter in the Kamor gas engine, or the receiver’s width is narrower and ALL = this is no longer an AK machine ....

          I read to your post and, in general, was going to write the same thing, for lovers to declare copying of small arms it is worth reading books about Russian gunsmiths, about how the best models are born. But the machine gunners were craftsmen and sculpted on their knees.

          submachine gun Dolganov
          http://warsonline.info/strelkovoe-oruzhie/partizanskiy-pistolet-pulemet-sistemi-

          dolganova.html
        2. zvereok
          zvereok 25 December 2013 22: 48
          +1
          You say cool !!!! It’s a pity I didn’t have time to communicate with my own ... I managed to lose the medals, but they didn’t communicate ((((...
        3. kbtgfz9o45ol
          kbtgfz9o45ol 18 January 2014 16: 13
          -1
          Tupar your Kalash
      2. Ripper
        Ripper 25 December 2013 20: 30
        -2
        Quote: Povshnik
        If someone is haunted by the glory of Kalashnikov, this does not diminish his merits. Schmeisser himself understood this.

        Yes, yes, but Schmeisser, the creator of a whole school of weapons, worked as an apprentice with the Komsomol Kalashnikov, he ran for beer ...
        1. poquello
          poquello 25 December 2013 20: 59
          +3
          Quote: Ripper
          Quote: Povshnik
          If someone is haunted by the glory of Kalashnikov, this does not diminish his merits. Schmeisser himself understood this.

          Yes, yes, but Schmeisser, the creator of a whole school of weapons, worked as an apprentice with the Komsomol Kalashnikov, he ran for beer ...

          was running
        2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Ripper
        Ripper 25 December 2013 20: 34
        -8
        Quote: Povshnik
        If someone is haunted by the glory of Kalashnikov, this does not diminish his merits. Schmeisser himself understood this.

        Then Schmeisser is a liar. He said that he had given some advice to Kalashnikov.
        I do not advise you to appeal to facts that our gallant bodies are very famously able to tune. Anyway, the truth will come out. There is enough abstract logic. A ё-mobile (and AK) with a super-engine cannot be born where there is no engineering culture and production culture. And then the concept is the main thing in the machine, and the concept is not all of a sudden, it is a process. Schmeisser had very little to perfect the concept of the 44th. It doesn’t matter that his Chekists took another from fascism — he would have completed the case in prison. You simply cannot imagine what a creative process is. What the hell are Komsomol-do-it-yourselfers? And the behavior of the creator and the parasite differ radically. For educated people it’s just a laugh - a parasite can even sincerely believe that he invented it all ...
        And then, theft is the main Russian principle. No one has yet canceled
        1. poquello
          poquello 25 December 2013 21: 05
          +3
          Quote: Ripper
          Quote: Povshnik
          If someone is haunted by the glory of Kalashnikov, this does not diminish his merits. Schmeisser himself understood this.

          Then Schmeisser is a liar. He said that he had given some advice to Kalashnikov.

          liar
          Quote: Ripper

          I do not advise you to appeal to facts that our gallant bodies are very famously able to tune. Anyway, the truth will come out. There is enough abstract logic. A ё-mobile (and AK) with a super-engine cannot be born where there is no engineering culture and production culture.

          that's about the facts and read more, but do not carry nonsense about the lack of an engineering culture
          1. kbtgfz9o45ol
            kbtgfz9o45ol 18 January 2014 16: 15
            -2
            If Hugo Che Toda your rosiya forward ????? And with whom ????
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. vasiliysxx
          vasiliysxx 25 December 2013 22: 14
          +2
          I read all your comments, they called you a troll here, they are mistaken. Add the letter T to your nickname - this is you.
          1. vasiliysxx
            vasiliysxx 25 December 2013 22: 24
            +3
            They removed all the pearls about him, I meant the ripper, well, or I forgot the tripper just like him request
    3. ele1285
      ele1285 25 December 2013 12: 36
      +13
      And who attacks the Russian / Soviet inventors? People stupidly worship ALL Westerners. For some reason, these people do not want to boo the Galil rifle.
    4. fedorovith
      fedorovith 25 December 2013 12: 40
      +20
      And what is there to convince someone that he is Kalashnikov all over the world Kalashnikov. And Stg.44 only remained in museums. Advocacy work against Russia is and will be conducted, see how many articles are trying to prove to us that the Russians are not capable of anything, but only steal all at all.
      1. Simon
        Simon 25 December 2013 14: 53
        +12
        So the Americans and we steal well. How many technologies and documentation were taken to the states during the EBN board. There are many examples, but for example, take the laser that they are now testing. hi
        1. Aryan
          Aryan 25 December 2013 16: 18
          +4
          let them cut the fly laughing
        2. Aryan
          Aryan 25 December 2013 16: 18
          +10
          let them cut the fly laughing

          who is not in the dark this is from the anectode

          Wild West. Saloon. A young cowboy bursts in and immediately starts firing. All the bottles and glasses to smithereens, all in fragments ... Finally, with the last well-aimed shot, the young cowboy extinguishes the light by the candle. Then the old cowboy gets up, approaches the young one and says:
          “They saw the fly, son.”
          “And why else, grandfather ?!”
          - Son, once I was as smart and apt as you. But one day I ran out of ammo. Three came up to me, took Colt, put him in my ass and turned him three times. They slept a fly, son.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPFOI-pCTOA
        3. Airman
          Airman 25 December 2013 16: 21
          +7
          Quote: Simon
          So the Americans and we steal well. How many technologies and documentation were taken to the states during the EBN board. There are many examples, but for example, take the laser that they are now testing. hi

          Well, at least the priority of Gagarin’s flight into space is not disputed, although attempts have been made.
          1. Vasek
            Vasek 27 December 2013 18: 27
            +1
            Quote: Povshnik
            Well, at least the priority of Gagarin’s flight into space is not disputed, although attempts have been made.

            Do not dispute, but do not mention.
            They always have the greatest achievement in space exploration on television and in the media - a walk on the moon (and never the first satellite and first person in space).
            As well as the periodic table of elements (never the periodic table). Propaganda puts pressure on children from an early age, but the word "propaganda" is used only together with "Bolshevik".
            (And at the same time they constantly reproach us for "double standards").
        4. ele1285
          ele1285 25 December 2013 16: 42
          +5
          But we got them into trouble. Remember the Cambridge Five, technology from Los Alamos.
          Ours, too, when they want, know how to work BETTER than any arrogant Saxons and notice for money, but for the idea. Here he is aerobatics. These are not vomit masses like General Kalugin and Minister Bakatin.
          1. alone
            alone 25 December 2013 22: 50
            +5
            The Kalashnikov assault rifle was made by Kalashnikov and no one stole anything. It is time to close this issue once and for all.
      2. Ripper
        Ripper 25 December 2013 20: 18
        0
        Quote: fedorovith
        Kalashnikov, he is Kalashnikov all over the world. And Stg.44 only remained in museums. Propaganda work against Russia is and will be conducted, see how many articles are trying to prove to us Russians that we are not capable of anything, but only steal everything from everyone.

        /// in August 1945 the company again, now under Soviet control, mounted and transferred to the USSR for technical evaluation of 50 pieces of Stg-44. At the same time, 10 sheets of technical drawings of military equipment are exported to the USSR ...
        In October 1946, Hugo Schmeisser was forcibly (like all German specialists in all areas of military equipment without exception, who found themselves in the territory controlled by the USSR), was taken to the Soviet Union. Schmeiser with a large group of designers was sent to Izhevsk - one of the centers of the Soviet arms industry. The group worked in the weapons bureau of the Izhmash plant. German specialists arrived in Izhevsk in late October 1946
        From the "characteristics" of foreign specialists at the department of the chief designer of plant No. 74 (Izhevsk, 1949, of course after the presentation that the machine, allegedly, "Kalashnikov"):
        Schmeiser Hugo Max Richard. He has no technical education. In the process of his work on projects, he proved himself as a practical designer. Refuses any design developments, citing the lack of special education and the inability to independently construct. It cannot be used at any works of the plant ... ///
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...
        They didn’t write that Schmeisser cannot distinguish steel from cast iron, does not do well with arithmetic, multiplication and division, does not understand how a hole is made in a metal with a drill?
  2. makarov
    makarov 25 December 2013 09: 19
    +6
    Is it worth chewing on the topic after the death of Kalashnikov right now, when even 9 days have not passed?
    Auto, why do you need it now ???
    1. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB 25 December 2013 09: 31
      +11
      Many are now trying to cast doubt on Kalashnikov’s talent.
      1. Simon
        Simon 25 December 2013 15: 06
        +4
        He was a good man! How much he has done for the Soviet Union and Russia, as well as for the whole world, even the Americans appreciate his military and hunting weapons. soldier
      2. kostiknet
        kostiknet 25 December 2013 17: 25
        +5
        These many should be accused of plagiarizing the entire auto industry of the world, on the basis that the cars have four wheels !!! Like stole the concept from the inventor of the cart. Kalashnikov was a genius !!! Like it or not.
        1. Dilshat
          Dilshat 25 December 2013 22: 26
          +1
          Yes, listen to them. If you start pretending that you believe, then they will start rubbing you that Gagarin was an American. The Chinese method. Smelting iron, stirrup, gunpowder, compass. Why did the sedentary Chinese need these inventions? These inventions were needed by the nomads in a highly competitive fight, that's why the nomads invented it ("Great Steppe, Huns" LN Gumilyov). But !!! But the Chinese invented paper and writing! And they rewrote everything to themselves as black realtors.)
    2. avt
      avt 25 December 2013 09: 42
      +24
      Quote: makarov
      Is it worth chewing on the topic after the death of Kalashnikov right now, when even 9 days have not passed?

      Worth it! Here, do not let anyone spoil your name even on mourning days! But they will not calm down, they will yelp for a long time, not only about this, but also about the fact that the murder weapon was created, they said to him in person, all this husk.
      1. kartalovkolya
        kartalovkolya 25 December 2013 11: 08
        +12
        I agree with you completely, but let me say that no one has been able to invent an equal AK until now, and miserable copies are far from the original (who served, he knows that there is nothing more reliable in the world). Xena fell asleep in the trench almost up to his neck and he dug up, pulled out his machine gun from the sand and, as if nothing had happened, opened fire on the advancing "enemy." Yes, you never know cases from the life of the legendary AK, but I don’t remember something like that with MP- 44 and others cannot boast of reliability. Glory to the Great Armourer M. Kalashnikov and eternal memory to him. And we will not allow the NAME, dear to all Russian soldiers, to slander!
        1. matross
          matross 25 December 2013 11: 54
          +3
          Quote: kartalovkolya
          more reliable AKM there is nothing in the world

          And for the mass army of wartime, this is the most important thing - simplicity, reliability and cheapness! Well, there are other types of weapons for special forces for their tasks. Kalashnikov, I think, is in service for a very long time.
        2. Russ69
          Russ69 25 December 2013 13: 47
          +4
          Quote: kartalovkolya
          I remember once, during an exercise, our ZKV fell asleep in a trench almost up to his neck and he dug out, pulled out his machine gun from the sand and, as if nothing had happened, opened fire on the advancing "enemy".

          True or not, but I heard the story. In 2000, in Grozny, fighters arranging a place, dismantled the old blockage, from the first war and found AK. Well, we decided to check the bullet, al no. They knocked it, set up a new store, lifted the bolt with difficulty, secured it just in case, and pulled the trigger from a distance. And after all he calmly shot a few cartridges that the store had ...
          1. K9_SWAT
            K9_SWAT 25 December 2013 18: 44
            +5
            I read a book by a British commando, where he gives a similar case. In Africa, the AK-47 was found in the riverbed, they cocked the shutter with difficulty and pulled the rope for pulling the trigger. and the whole store came out through the trunk)))
      2. makarov
        makarov 25 December 2013 11: 43
        0
        Yes Yes. It is on these days that one should say the following as a conclusion (?): "If we talk about the fact that Kalashnikov used someone's experience, then most likely this is the experience of Sudaev .."
    3. Colonel
      Colonel 25 December 2013 16: 24
      +5
      Quote: makarov
      Is it worth chewing a theme after the death of Kalashnikov

      Still worth it. From the comments on yesterday’s article on the death of the great gunsmith
      alexmaneger  Today, 09:02

      Well, people have to believe in something. And Kalashnikov is just a symbol, although his merit in creating the machine is very doubtful (apparently German engineers just sharpened pencils for him). The man was in the right place at the right time, put signatures on the right documents. Well then, his secret went away with him. Everlasting memory.

      How do you like this???
      1. matross
        matross 25 December 2013 17: 47
        +7
        Quote: colonel
        How do you like this???

        This is disgusting. Well, that's the nickname characteristic. There are all kinds of managers hanging around ... Why can't they sit on Rain? Among their own kind, wretched and vile ...
  3. Stas57
    Stas57 25 December 2013 09: 20
    +10
    Assuming that AK-47 is a modified and improved Stg. 44, it is also logical to assume that the AK-46 should carry even more features of the German progenitor.

    Well, they don’t look so much so that only children and juvenile liberals, sofa experts can say something.
    and this despite the fact that at the time of creation, all the main units of this type of weapon (and not only this one) have been used for years in different weapon systems in the world.

    By the way, I will note, purely from the logic of life, if the AK had been copied, then howling about it would have gone back in the 50s, as soon as the first samples came to the west- "The Soviets are unable to do anything and stole a machine gun from the Germans!"
    1. Vasek
      Vasek 27 December 2013 18: 36
      0
      On this basis, far-reaching conclusions can only be made by a person who has never looked inside the receiver.


      This quote is the main conclusion of the article!
  4. Alexey M
    Alexey M 25 December 2013 09: 20
    +2
    In general, the deceased is either only good or nothing.
    And on the subject, the designers solved approximately the same problems. And accordingly, they came to similar solutions.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 25 December 2013 10: 01
      -5
      Quote: Alexey M
      In general, the deceased is either only good or nothing.

      I agree with you on 10000000000000000000000000000000000%, so you should not arrange any discussions. You just need to be silent.
      1. nnz226
        nnz226 25 December 2013 12: 06
        +5
        On the contrary! Say good! What can be said about the post-war USSR good, what is heard by the shitty democratic world? Gagarin, ballet and Kalashnikov! We will not mention balalaikas, nested dolls, and bears on the streets: imbeciles (western) are not treated ... however, like downs ...
      2. Very old
        Very old 25 December 2013 13: 14
        +1
        But we will return to this topic
        The answer will be (how is it today?) - adequate
  5. predator.3
    predator.3 25 December 2013 09: 23
    +6
    Well, I don’t want to admit that at that time a poorly educated sergeant of the Red Army surpassed the blond beast - the greatest gunsmith of all time.


    I remember the 90s. also kicked M. Sholokhov, allegedly he was not the author of "Quiet Don", but "communed" the manuscript from some White Guard! And where are the enti "experts" now?
  6. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 25 December 2013 09: 24
    +5
    Yes, even if he borrowed some solutions from someone, and what a lot, what's next? The Germans had successful design solutions, why not apply them? They themselves had to "invent a bicycle"? Well, it looks like have to "repent" again?
    1. alebor
      alebor 25 December 2013 10: 07
      +11
      It seems that Newton said: "I saw further than others, because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
      Of course, any designer (as well as a scientist) does not "invent a bicycle" from scratch, of course he uses the experience and developments of his predecessors, he closely monitors the success of his colleagues and competitors and borrows some of their successful ideas and constructive solutions. But this is not plagiarism, since he creatively recycles other people's ideas and brings something, and sometimes a lot, of his own, going up a step compared to his predecessors. So gradually, step by step, the improvement of any technique occurs.
      1. valerei
        valerei 25 December 2013 11: 54
        +5
        alebor, as a former designer, although not a gunsmith, I confirm what was said. All design work is a movement from simple to complex and from successful other people's solutions to our own. Very often it happens that "inventing a new bicycle" leads to a bad design. Just a designer, wanting to show that, they say, we "can" invents something unintelligible.
        1. Ripper
          Ripper 25 December 2013 20: 27
          -2
          Quote: valerei
          as a former designer, although not a gunsmith, I confirm what was said. All design work is a movement from simple to complex and from successful other people's solutions to our own. Very often it happens that "inventing a new bicycle" leads to a bad design. Just a designer, wanting to show that, they say, we "can" invents something unintelligible.

          In fact, he, as a designer, died in 1953, but not in connection with the death of Stalin, but in connection with the death of Hugo Schmeisser. Talent has dried up, nothing more fundamentally new has come to the mind of the brilliant designer in 60 years. This, in fact, does not happen. As it does not happen that the design of the machine came to the head of the Komsomol organizer as an inspiration. You have to go to such a machine all your life (Hugo did not give a damn under whose name it came out, who would steal its development - he achieved what he wanted, for a creative person this is the main thing, and the truth will still come out), this should be based on the highest engineering and production a culture that Russia never had - while Germany was developing manufactures and so on, only robbery and the Horde flourished here. And for such an automaton to appear in a pure cultural field, like a devil from a snuff-box - it's like "yo-mobile" ...
          I think Kalashnikov's modesty is dictated rather by shame - that the Komsomol organizer once entered into a deal with the "authorities", gained fame, and ruined himself, his talent.
          Children, never do that.
          1. Heapoiss
            Heapoiss 13 December 2016 23: 44
            0
            "it never happens that a Komsomol organizer thinks about the design of a machine gun"
            "It should be based on the highest engineering and manufacturing culture"
            Hugo had a higher technical education?
            Not even the highest, at least technical?
            How does he differ from Kalashnikov?
            He was self-taught.
            Talented? - Yes.
            A genius? - I do not know, I do not have all the information.
            And now to you personally:
            VGNV counted !!!
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. saxa2103
        saxa2103 25 December 2013 17: 02
        +1
        not only an apple was submitted to Newton, but he discovered the law of gravity, all specialists saw it, ak44 created Kalashnikov, the talent is to see it in a drop of water-sea!
    2. The comment was deleted.
  7. Yun Klob
    Yun Klob 25 December 2013 09: 24
    +9
    Blade weapons also have a lot in common. Common tasks generate close solutions.
  8. PANZER
    PANZER 25 December 2013 09: 25
    +6
    Although it seems to me, it is for these people that the shape of the store is key.
    That's it))
    The similarity in all the presented samples, except the store, is one - the use of the same principle of automation, due to the gadfly of powder gases. The concept is one.
  9. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 25 December 2013 09: 25
    +13
    Some pro-liberal pseudo-researchers have a Russophobic trait of denying the ability of our people to invent something exceptional, advanced. To instill in us a sense of inferiority have not stopped for a long time. Attempts to belittle or deny achievements and successes in all spheres of our society’s life are called to stop our development.
  10. Muadipus
    Muadipus 25 December 2013 09: 28
    +9
    What are you talking about? licked not licked? Yes, there is no complete Chinese plagiarism. And the fact that the development of other designers was taken into account was obvious. And it’s hard to judge from the photographs presented. because there is no complete disassembly. In the often between the ordinary model and the ingenious is a barely noticeable trifle. Especially when it comes to design decisions. The cotter pin was not set there and will not really work. My opinion is that there were borrowings and I think that this is a common thing, the fact is that Kalashnikov was able to make a completed product and this is the main thing. Let’s show to all car manufacturers plagiarized wheels.
  11. mamba
    mamba 25 December 2013 09: 38
    +9
    ... the then undereducated sergeant of the Red Army surpassed the blond beast - the greatest gunsmith ...
    Not the "greatest gunsmith", but just a good manager who managed to organize talented designers.
    But the Russian Lefty, whom God kissed on the forehead, cannot be glossed over by any speculation of the liberals.
    1. postman
      postman 25 December 2013 11: 17
      +2
      Quote: mamba
      , just a good manager who managed to organize talented designers.

      what nonsense to carry.
      self-loading pistols of 7.63 and 9 mm caliber, and in 1917 the first submachine gun. MP-18
      - MP 28
      - MP-41
      - Maschinenkarabiner (MKb -42 (H)) = "victory" over MKb-42 (W), total: MP-43, renamed to MP-44, then StG-44 ("Sturmgewehr 44")
      These are his "epoch-making" PERSONAL inventions, in detail at "Haenel", "Industriewerk Auhammer Koch und Co.", "Gebrüder Schmeisse" ...

      For reference:
      his dad (Hugo) - Louis Schmeisser (Louis Schmeisser 1848–1917) was one of the leading collaboratorsat Theodor Bergmann Waffenfabrik in the arms capital of Germany, the city of Suhl ... but not as a "manager"
      1. bunta
        bunta 25 December 2013 13: 39
        +5
        Quote: Postman
        - self-loading pistols of caliber 7.63 and 9 mm,

        Something nine I do not remember the seven too. 6,35 vest, this. Yes.
        On the basis of his father's developments, they did not have anything outstanding. They were released in a small batch and are easily lost among hundreds of similar products.

        Quote: Postman
        in 1917, the first submachine gun. MP-18
        also nothing revolutionary. In parallel with him, Louis Stange worked on the MP-19. There is much more in common between 18 and 19 than between AK and Stg. And no wonder, since Stange was a pupil and successor of Louis Schmeisser. In addition, there were two more similar vehicles from Schwarzlose and Luger. Schmeisserovsky won as a more primitive and cheaper. Stange did not chase the championship and calmly brought his MP-19 to mind.

        Schmeisser inserted into MP-18 what was already standing at Stange - fire translator. It turned out MP-28.
        Taking the MP-40 from Volmer, attached a wooden butt to it, called it MP-41 and proudly displayed on the box "Patent Schmeisser". (On MP-40, there were no references to the patent, or even the name of Volmer). Since then, all weapons with a characteristic barrel tide and direct magazines began to be called "Schmeisser". That's how fame came.

        Stg, if you parse it, too, did not have anything "brilliant".

        ps I am writing an article about Schmeisser. 6 pages - coverage until the end of the first world already written. I'll post it somewhere in a month. Who wants to read, write in a personal letter, I will give to read without the right to publish.

        ps Why do not you mention the work on the machine gun with Bergman?
        1. postman
          postman 25 December 2013 16: 50
          0
          Quote: bunta
          Something nine I do not remember the seven too. 6,35 vest, this. Yes.

          1.MP18 -9mm



          Hugo Schmeisser, working for the Bergmann Waffenfabrik was part of a team composed of Theodor Bergmann and a few other technicians.
          2.Wpn No. 181 - 9 mm Parabellum MP 181 (Modified) Schmeisser
          3.7.63mm Mauser type (Mars-Pistole (or “Bergmann-Mars”))
          / Pistols of the World Authors: Ian Hogg, John Walter
          Theodor Bergmann Waffenfabrik: history and products, everything is there.
          requirements in Maschinenpistole 18 / I.


          Quote: bunta
          also nothing revolutionary.


          Die Bergmann MP18 war die erste echte Maschinenpistole, die produziert wurde. Sie wurde während des Ersten Weltkriegs von Theodor Bergmann und Hugo Schmeisser im Deutschen Reich entwickelt und 1918 an die deutschen Fronttruppen (vorwiegend Sturmbataillone) ausgeliefert. Bis zum Kriegsende produzierte die Theodor Bergmann Waffenbau etwa 10.000 Exemplare dieser Waffe.

          / Hans Dieter Götz: German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols, 1871–1945, Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. West Chester, Pennsylvania, 1990. OCLC 24416255
          Is there enough power to transfer?
          Quote: bunta
          It turned out MP-28

          MP28, was specified in the requirements of Maschinenpistole 28 / II

          Quote: bunta
          Stg, if you parse it, too, did not have anything "brilliant".

          What about AK?
          Quote: bunta
          ps Why do not you mention the work on the machine gun with Bergman?

          And who asked about the "machine gun"?
          MP 181? (higher)

          1. Wpn No 182: 9 mm Parabellum MP 2811 (Schmeiser Designed)
          Further modifications of the MP 181 led to the MP 2811, the most important of which is the transition to selective fire and the installation of a pillar of the Tangent type. This weapon was widely used in the German police, including SS units, although it was used in the German army, but was never officially adopted.

          2. Wpn No. 184: The first submachine gun that was adopted by the German army after MP 181. This weapon was developed by ERMA WERKE at the request of the German army. This is often referred to as Schmeiser development but it is doubtful, however, was produced in some quantities by Haenel, in which Schmeiser, at that time was the CEO. Used in 2MB
          1. bunta
            bunta 25 December 2013 22: 10
            -1
            MP-18 is your self-loading pistol ?!

            Mars is the work of Pope Louis Schmeiser and not the son of Hugo.

            I didn’t ask about the machine gun, I was surprised why it wasn’t mentioned - MG -08 / 15? And this is a weapon in which Hugo left his real mark, although again his father’s development was at the core.

            On account of "genius" I have a separate opinion. But not right now.
            1. postman
              postman 26 December 2013 12: 51
              -1
              Quote: bunta
              MP-18 is your self-loading pistol ?!


              this is due to the translation (original source used) "Machine Pistol"
              useful mb
              http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940507/bergmann.pdf

              Haenel, CG, 28 Pistol

              about
              Quote: bunta
              6,35 vest, this. Yes.
              ( I missed)

              “AKT.-GES. LIGNOSE, BERLIN, ”“ ABTEILUNG SUHL CAL 6,35 DRPa ”




              not only "vest"

              MAKE: Bergmann
              MODEL: 1896 No 3
              MADE: Germany
              CALIBER: 6.5 mm rimless bergmann
              SERIAL NUMBER: 577
              YEAR MADE: 1896

              Quote: bunta
              On account of "genius" I have a separate opinion.

              someone has the same "separate" about Kalashnikov
              1. bunta
                bunta 26 December 2013 13: 04
                +1
                MAKE: Bergmann
                MODEL: 1896 No 3
                This product is also Luis Schmeisser, not Hugo. And the most disastrous and illiterate from a technical point of view.
    2. Ripper
      Ripper 25 December 2013 13: 14
      -4
      But the Russian Lefty, whom God kissed on the forehead, cannot be glossed over by any speculation of the liberals.Mamba. Quote.
      From Minsk. I was always moved by this example. After all, if you read this passage from Leskov and think, just a couple of minutes. Everything changes. The left-hander ruined the MECHANISM, deprived it of the main feature, for which it was invented! The mechanism has stopped moving! And how much more complicated were the "nano-details" inside the flea, which made her dance, than two simple pieces of metal - a nail and a horseshoe, which deprived her of this quality! So it was entirely due to his ignorance that everything worked out. His hands were golden and he worked well, but his knowledge was not enough, and he drank hard.
      Sound familiar?
      Well, the use of the word "liberast" neither to the village nor to the city is a reason to consult an appropriate doctor. Maybe it will cure.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. alexng
        alexng 25 December 2013 16: 13
        +2
        Doesn't the wheel tell you anything? According to your logic, "everything" and everything was slammed by an unknown inventor and is used almost everywhere. You, too, were born with two arms, two legs, etc. and it never occurs to anyone that you are, like any other person, plagiarism? You would also add that the T-34 was copied from the German Panther. About airplanes and cars generally keep quiet. In short, the clinic ...
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 25 December 2013 21: 08
          +2
          Quote: alexneg
          In short, the clinic ...

          What clinic?
          Purebred troll, consciously engaged in trolling.
      3. Cynic
        Cynic 25 December 2013 21: 03
        +5
        Quote: Ripper
        Well, the use of the word "liberast" neither to the village nor to the city is a reason to consult an appropriate doctor. Maybe it will cure.

        Well, it’s calm right in my heart, I haven’t seen such caveman hatred for the Soviet Union on the pages of our forum for a long time.
        Thank you for the open eruption of dirty fabrications about everything Soviet.
        Such open trolls have not been noted here for a long time, otherwise they are trying, little by little, to debunk the departed empire and its heroes. You have a holiday today.
      4. mamba
        mamba 25 December 2013 22: 35
        +2
        Quote: Ripper
        Left-hander SPORTED MECHANISM, deprived him of the main chip, for which he was invented! The mechanism has stopped moving!

        His task was different. As Platov said: "It would be necessary to subject nymphozoria to Russian revisions - can not our masters surpass this, so that the British do not prejudge the Russians." And Nikolai Pavlovich added: "My brother was surprised at this thing and praised strangers who did nymphozoria more than anyone else, and I hope on my own that they are no worse. They will not utter my word and will do something." Those. it was about surpassing the British in any way and doing even smaller work.
        Quote: Ripper
        And how much more complicated were the "nano-details" inside the flea, which made her dance, than two simple pieces of metal - a nail and a horseshoe, which deprived her of this quality!

        And the pieces were not simple: "on each horseshoe a master's name is displayed: what Russian master made that horseshoe. And I worked smaller than these horseshoes: I forged carnations with which the horseshoes were hammered."
        Quote: Ripper
        So it’s completely out of his ignorance that it all happened. His hands were golden and his colleague worked, but not enough knowledge

        Here you are right. The British remarked on this: “in every machine there is a calculation of strength; otherwise, you are very skillful in your hands, but you didn’t realize that such a small machine, as in the nymphozoria, is designed for the most accurate accuracy and cannot bear its horseshoes. it is now nymphozoria and does not jump and dance. "
        Quote: Ripper
        and he drank hard. Doesn’t resemble anything?
        Why so? Reminds a simple Russian hard worker, whose talent is impossible to drink. I communicate with such people every day at my work. I, an electronic engineer and they are printers, binders, adjusters, electricians, we fully understand each other and work fruitfully.
        Quote: Ripper
        Well, the use of the word "liberast" neither to the village nor to the city is a reason to consult an appropriate doctor. Maybe it will cure.

        What is this term, addressed to our pro-Western liberals-cosmopolitans, so excited you? Or maybe offended? Sorry for God's sake. I did not know that this topic is so painful for you ... crying
  12. Dart weyder
    Dart weyder 25 December 2013 09: 42
    +6
    yes, it does not give many rest, despite the arguments .... it’s useless to explain to some, looking at white, they will prove with foam at the mouth that it is black ............. such people)
  13. Stinger
    Stinger 25 December 2013 09: 45
    +8
    In principle, all the girls are similar to b ... The point is in the materials and manufacturing techniques that allow you to have such tolerances that ensure reliable operation and a given accuracy of shooting from -50 to +50 gr., Etc. in the most severe groups of climate and mechanics. For some reason, copies of Kalashnikov, foreign production are falling apart in the hands of shooters.
    1. Muadipus
      Muadipus 25 December 2013 10: 08
      +1
      +100. Here is the absolutely correctly formulated advantage and achievement of Kalashnikov.


      PS. I can give an example Lego constructor - the cubes are the same, and the final product built from them is different. You can also blame the use of cartridges rather than pebbles for plagiarism.
      Threat 2.
      IMHO, the topic is about nothing. Comrade Kalashnikov honestly plowed for the good of Rodinina. and About him is either good or nothing.
  14. MolGro
    MolGro 25 December 2013 09: 57
    +9
    The West is jealous that we have riding hamsters fat and a lot of geniuses))
  15. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 25 December 2013 09: 58
    +6
    Knowing the assertiveness and impudence of connoisseurs of Western designers, an unimaginable hype would have been raised in the world if Kalashnikov had noticed signs of plagiarism. But the entire world arms community with great respect call Kalashnikov a weapon genius. And no one doubts that the design of the AK-47 is the author's development of Kalashnikov. And our domestic "doubting" comrades, no, no, yes, and will raise this unnecessary topic to anyone. Why do this, especially on these days of mourning?
    1. MolGro
      MolGro 25 December 2013 10: 07
      +4
      Yes, why say m16 to disassemble and immediately see!
      1. saxa2103
        saxa2103 25 December 2013 17: 11
        0
        well done, but I thought where is a similar scheme good
      2. Andrey78
        Andrey78 27 December 2013 08: 46
        0
        Well, it's a completely different rifle. Where the gever has plastic, aluminum parts, a handle for easy carrying. Anyone can see with no armed gaze. Well and:
        - locking the barrel according to the Johnson system, a rotary shutter for the shoot of the trunk, which allowed to unload the receiver and make it of light alloy;
        - “direct” gas outlet, used in a slightly different version in 1942 on the Swedish Lungman rifle AG42B, and before that - on a number of French self-loading rifles;
        - “linear” arrangement with a pistol grip and a straight neck accommodating the recoil spring of the butt frame of the butt, previously used, in particular, by the Germans on the FG42 rifle and the StG44 assault rifle / assault rifle;
        - the receiver in the form of two halves swinging on the transverse hairpin (upper / lower reciever), as with the Belgian rifle FN FAL or the Soviet submachine guns Shpagin (PPSh) and Sudaev (PPS);
        - the base of the sight, playing the role of a handle for carrying, as in the experienced English rifle EM2;
        - a flag fire translator located on the left above the pistol grip, like a Thompson submachine gun;
        - a closing window for the ejection of sleeve casings, like the StG44 and the submachine gun M3. (taken from wikipedia)
    2. Taoist
      Taoist 25 December 2013 12: 45
      +4
      Unfortunately, not all ...
      Here, in particular, is a very illustrative example of "double standards"
      http://inosmi.ru/world/20131224/216004018.html
      "Served in the Marine Corps and now at the New York Times, Chivers has been monitoring the spread of the Kalashnikov assault rifle around the world for almost a decade and studying its history in everything from the dusty state archives of the former Soviet Union to the battlefields in Afghanistan. The book" Weapons " Chivers told Foreign Policy's Charles Homans about the obscure origins of the AK-47, how it has transformed the nature of modern warfare, and why the Kalashnikov era won't end soon. " (from)

      So our "liberoids" have good teachers.
  16. Nayhas
    Nayhas 25 December 2013 09: 59
    -22%
    This issue can be resolved immediately after declassification of documents on the creation of AK. Kalashnikov M.T. in theory, he was interested in this, but this did not happen. Currently, after 60 years after the creation of the AK, these documents are of interest only to historians, because nothing secret can simply be there, AK is made by everyone who is not lazy even in artisanal conditions. Personally, I believe that the reason why the documents were not declassified is a simple, Komsomol leader MT Kalashnikov having virtually no worthwhile education was only the curator of the topic, and the disclosure of this information can affect the image of Russia, which is so necessary flags that need to be waved ...
  17. Double major
    Double major 25 December 2013 10: 09
    +1
    I’ll just give a link to the material where, with photos, Schmeiser’s participation in the development of AK is argued: http://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/4287-tajna-avtomata-kalashnikova-raskryt

    a.html
    1. bunta
      bunta 25 December 2013 12: 05
      +9
      Article shit. Korobeinikov is not a historian! This is a former KGB Schnik who worked at a mechanical plant (this is not an Izhmash, but also a gunsmith). Having retired, I decided to go diving and the history of my hometown. Got access to the archives. In addition to Korobeinikov, there is another such "historian" - Kobzev. They are all sheer assholes and "historians" of them are like a botanist from me.
      1. postman
        postman 25 December 2013 18: 01
        +1
        Quote: bunta
        They are all sheer assholes and "historians" of them are like a botanist from me.

        CAPTURED AND "ORIGINAL" ... I WOULD SAY.
        There is such a person: Apollo ... he is wandering, fie is watching about obscene language, probably your comment will be deleted soon .. but it's a pity
        1. bunta
          bunta 25 December 2013 22: 22
          +1
          Thank! But Lord! How painful!
    2. poquello
      poquello 25 December 2013 22: 48
      +1
      Quote: Twice Major
      I’ll just give a link to the material where, with photos, Schmeiser’s participation in the development of AK is argued: http://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/4287-tajna-avtomata-kalashnikova-raskryt


      a.html

      The people, well, do not tell already, any designer in the development process gets acquainted with all the analogues close to his idea. Even funnier looks Kalashnikov torturing Schmeiser, shackled in shackles. I’ll say more simply, IMHO if Schmeiser continued his work on the assault rifle, the final product would be different from Kalash, for DIFFERENT engineering cultures.
  18. Navy7981
    Navy7981 25 December 2013 10: 10
    +6
    Yes, all firearms look alike! The question is in the layout! This is the talent. Kalashnikov managed to make the best of the cubes that he had.
  19. Ivan Pomidorov
    Ivan Pomidorov 25 December 2013 10: 15
    +22
    1. Everything that is useful to my Motherland is good!
    I do not understand small arms and can not make a reasoned analysis of 30 pages about the similarities, differences, primary sources, etc.
    But it’s stupid to design a new technique without studying the best world models.
    It is impossible to develop radio engineering devices without relying on the research of physicists and mathematical mathematicians.
    I know about the latter firsthand - implemented effective metal algorithms for special equipment in iron.
    Therefore, see paragraph 1.
    All countries monitor the development of science and technology with their neighbors, including and military science and technology.
    This is the DUTY of the state, in accordance with paragraph 1.
    Therefore, I believe that there is no subject for discussion.
    The Russian machine gun is in service in more than 50 countries.
    Kalashnikov is produced worldwide under license and without it.
    What else can I discuss ???
    The principles of operation of the Zaporozhets and Toyota engines are the same, the implementation and consumer qualities are different, which is confirmed by their prevalence in the world.
    The weapon is no different.
  20. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 25 December 2013 10: 20
    +15
    For me personally, the topic of authorship is not even discussed! If you take any pistol, for example, then we can say that all today's samples are licked from some "Browning" of the early XX century and are plagiarism. But nobody says that. Design ideas at the end of the war would all the same come to the most optimal form of design. In this case, it is similar for everyone. It's about the stuffing and performance. Throw the Stg. 44 in the mud and rinse in water - will it shoot? That's just it.
    Only those who consider Russia a backward country of barbarians can speak about some licks by M.T. Kalashnikov. That is, the Western ... lises that appeared in large numbers in the early 90s against the backdrop of the collapse of the country and ready to sell their mother for a penny. Hence moral and degrading.
    And now their agrarian quantity, because immoral consumers who do only what they are ordered to make us out of a thinking and moral society.
    Read carefully Z. Brzezinski and just don’t say that he wants the good of Russia. A consistent and enforced policy of annihilation of the nation is bearing fruit. After all, the whole oligarchy plundering the country is licked from the Western way of life. But the thieves themselves are more shouting that they are stealing ... Sadly ... Once again, the eternal memory of MT Kalashnikov.
  21. bunta
    bunta 25 December 2013 10: 33
    +3
    Guys finish this topic! Better help humanly.
    On 24 on December morning, the son of M.T. Kalashnikov, Victor, in his interview announced his firm intention to bury his father in Izhevsk, where he lived and worked. Later, a rumor appears that, at the request of Putin, a decision was made to bury him in Moscow. In the evening it becomes a fact. Obviously, such a solution can only be changed under strong pressure.

    This decision is causing outrage among the residents of Izhevsk. Even if we consider the purely human side, this is contrary to the norms of both human and Christian morality.
    Sign the petition


    http://www.change.org/ru/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8/%D0%BF%D1%80

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    %D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%83-%D1%83%D1%80-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE

    %D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BC-%D1%82-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8

    8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE-%D0%

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    E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5-%D0%B3-%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0?shar

    e_id = YnLZGsDJFb & utm_campaign = friend_inviter_chat & utm_medium = facebook & utm_source =

    share_petition & utm_term = permissions_dialog_false
  22. Altona
    Altona 25 December 2013 10: 35
    +10
    The principles of operation of many weapon systems, as many have correctly noted here, are the same ... The design solutions are different, only where the differences are clearly visible, where they are not visible to an inexperienced person at all ... The topic "AK-Sturmgever" has long been callous on all military forums, and there is no similarity other than the external of these machines (assault rifles), and the fact that they are created for an intermediate cartridge. It is all the more stupid to talk about our "barbarism" when we went through such a large and long war, saving not only ourselves, but also the West from its own brainchild, Nazism and fascism ... Of course, the experience of making various weapons systems has accumulated. tanks, aircraft, artillery guns, small arms, ships.
    Moreover, the AK platform served as the basis for all Indian, Israeli, Finnish, Czech, Chinese, Polish shooting systems ... So who has accumulated more from whom?
    1. postman
      postman 25 December 2013 11: 23
      +2
      Quote: Altona
      and there is no similarity other than the exterior of these machine guns (assault rifles), well, the fact that they are created under an intermediate cartridge.

      cartridge by the way is not the last ..
      For reference, like this:
      After the war, the city of Suhl falls into the zone of responsibility of the Soviet Army. In August of that year at CG Haenel, 50 pieces of Stg-44 are mounted and transferred to the USSR for technical evaluation. At the same time, 10 sheets of technical drawings are exported.
      In 1946, a group of German military equipment designers located on the territory of the Soviet Army controlled by were forcibly taken out, together with their family, to work in the USSR. Among them was Hugo Schmeisser


      === These are just facts, nothing more.
      And there is nothing so "special" here
      The Americans took out the finished Fau-1 and Fau-2, technical documentation and the production line to themselves, and Brown together the same.
      So what?
      ==========================
  23. Galich Kos
    Galich Kos 25 December 2013 10: 39
    +2
    Schmeiser to Kalashnikov sorry, as to China with cancer!
  24. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 25 December 2013 10: 40
    +12
    Between MP-44 and AK, only some external resemblance. The internal structure is completely different. The German locks the bore by skewing the shutter, and AK by turning it. Kalashnikov took from this device only the idea of ​​using the so-called intermediate cartridge, then he went his own way. Anyone who has ever disassembled an MP-44 and AK knows that this is a completely different weapon.

    Although really Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov took many key design decisions of the new machine from other systems:
    - AK-47 Kalashnikov automation and the experienced designer of the Kovrov Plant Zaitsev, who helped him in remaking the machine, took a competitor AK-47 from the Bulkin machine gun
    - the trigger mechanism was borrowed with minimal improvements from the Czech self-loading rifle Holeka-ZH-29,
    - the safety lever, which was also a dust cover for the bolt handle window, was "spied" from the Browning self-loading Remington 8 rifle,
    - The shutter was borrowed from the American M1 Garand.
    However, Mikhail Timofeevich never really hid that he borrowed many constructive solutions, which does not make his main invention of his life-AK-47 less ingenious. Well, all sorts of stupid mongrels can choke on their own saliva from impotent malice and water their deceased genius with their impotent malice.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 25 December 2013 11: 02
      -1
      However, Mikhail Timofeevich never really hid that he had borrowed many constructive solutions,

      Well, yes, that's fine.
      Well, make a car now?
      brakes and electrics for a long time all 100 times reinvented by all sorts of Bosch, Valio and so on. ICE is either gasoline or diesel or hybrid, etc., all the principles of operation for 100 years, the wheel in general is millennia)
      but we or Maybach and Rolls has or the Great Wall for six months.
      there is no way without borrowing, the question is what will come out in the end. But in the end, AK

      and the Other, a pedophile, is just a little man, and the end of it is a loop from a scarf, or an ulcer.
      Although let him live happily, we are not evil)))
      1. Cynic
        Cynic 25 December 2013 11: 22
        +12
        Quote: Stas57
        Well, yes, that's fine.

        What is normal then! Indeed, in addition to all of the above, Kalashnikov also appropriated the idea of ​​firearms. After all, AK shoots CARTRIDGES equipped with smokeless gunpowder and a bullet!
        This is where the plowed field is not plowed!
        And you layout that breaks and opens where!

        The surname KALASHNIKOV is embedded in the history of the world firearms and no matter how hard the whistleblowers bother, they are not capable of spoiling the air!
        drinks
    2. Roman 1977
      Roman 1977 25 December 2013 13: 24
      +4
      Nobody argues that the MR-44 is a good machine, it was in Yugoslavia until 1985 that it was in the arsenal of the most elite unit of the JNA — the 63rd Airborne Brigade, all sorts of blacks were running with him, and now they are shooting in Syria.
      Nevertheless, with the AK-47, it has in common only a slight similarity in appearance and the use of an intermediate cartridge. Therefore, talking about DIRECT BORROWING by Kalashnikov from the Schmeisser construction can only people who are versed in firearms have a little more than complete librests - AK and Stg.44 designs contain too many fundamentally different solutions (receiver configuration, trigger system, device for locking the barrel and etc.). And the very possible participation of Schmeisser in the development of the Kalashnikov assault rifle looks more than doubtful, given that. that the myth puts Hugo in Izhevsk, while the prototype AK-47 was created in Kovrov. But as you know, dogs bark, and the wind blows. Therefore, let us remember the GENIUS SOVIET DESIGNER of firearms Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov, and let all kinds of filth choke on their impotent rage ...
  25. Vasia kruger
    Vasia kruger 25 December 2013 10: 51
    0
    Excellent article!
  26. Altona
    Altona 25 December 2013 11: 19
    0
    Quote: Stas57
    brakes and electrics have long been all 100 times reinvented by all sorts of Bosch, Valio and so on. ICE

    -------------------------
    Don't understand who Valio is? Maybe Felix Wankel was meant (and to the heap of Rudolph Diesel with Sadi Carnot), and not a Finnish cheese factory?
    1. postman
      postman 25 December 2013 12: 19
      0
      Quote: Altona
      Don't understand who Valio is?

      It was meant

      The French concern VALEO was founded in 1923, originally for the production of brake equipment, lighting systems and clutches for the rapidly developing national automobile industry, and by the 50s for many European automakers, significantly expanding the range of manufactured products by this time.
      It is one of the world's largest suppliers of automotive components (headlights, lights, starters, alternators, ignition modules, plugs, clutch, wipers, brake system parts, electronics, security systems, etc.), including to the conveyor of such manufacturers as Ford, BMW , Mercedes, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Renault-Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen.
      http://www.valeo.com/en
  27. Sour
    Sour 25 December 2013 11: 22
    +10
    The difference is not only in locking the bore (distortion of the shutter and its rotation).
    On the SG-44, the fuse and translator of the fire are different parts, but the AK-47 is the same. And the principle of operation of the fuse is different. In AK-47, it locks the sear and the trigger, and in the SG-44, only the trigger.
    The return spring of the SG-44 was located inside the butt, and not under the receiver cover. Because of this, it was impossible to create a modification with a folding butt.
    The ramrod of the SG-44 was retracted inside the gas piston.
    In the AK-47, the pistol grip is rigidly coupled to the receiver, while in the SG-44 it is tilted down when disassembled on a hinge.
    In short, it is full of differences and very significant. But the topic is still being discussed. It's time to close it.
  28. Bosk
    Bosk 25 December 2013 11: 23
    0
    Amazing things really happen with this "Slamming", on the example of the same T-144, if you believe the comrades "Pravdists", they managed to steal his project, and then, before anyone else, to design, build, lift into the air, and some of them are led to this .. ...
    And on the subject of the similarity of "Sturmgever" and "Kalash" ... dear authors, well, in the end, make a normal article about "Sturmgever", respectively, with the entire branch of successors of this not the worst machine gun, including the same "Setme" and G-3 with all photos and diagrams for similarity. This is what I mean if such a comparison went. then let's compare the modern AK with, say, G-11 ... someone will say "what are you ... these are different fluffs!" ... different are not different, but the roots are the same.
    1. Sour
      Sour 25 December 2013 11: 33
      0
      Quote: Bosk
      Sturmgever ", respectively, with the entire branch of successors of this not the worst machine gun, including the same Setme and G-3

      What other successors?
      The G-3 has nothing to do with the SG-44 at all, it has a completely different operating principle for automation.
      1. Bosk
        Bosk 25 December 2013 14: 44
        0
        What kind of successors? gases and the recoil of a semi-free shutter ... but anyway it turns out that the same G-3, step by step, step by step, with changes in the design, was drawn from the "Gever", maybe I'm wrong, I don't argue, I'm just a man, but everyone a person has a right to his opinion.
        1. Sour
          Sour 25 December 2013 14: 57
          +1
          Quote: Bosk
          , I am only a person, and each person has the right to an opinion.

          Similarly. I am also a person who has the right to an opinion.
          1) You correctly noticed that there is a significant difference between the gas exhaust and the half-free shutter.
          And in general, the small arms of the Heckler und Koch company are too peculiar in terms of design to be derived from any previous one.
          2) The difference between the intermediate cartridge of the "Sturmgever" and the NATO cartridge 7.62 per 51, used in the G-3 and its modifications, is no less significant. This cartridge, with all the desire, does not pull on the intermediate one.
          3) The G-3 has more aiming range and less magazine capacity, a more powerful cartridge, i.e. it is a conceptually different weapon. This is not a melee or medium combat weapon, but a traditional infantry rifle for its intended purpose, only automated.
          Maybe I'm wrong, I do not argue. But your point of view aroused my rejection, and I justify it, as I can. Nothing personal.
          1. Bosk
            Bosk 25 December 2013 15: 13
            0
            Fir-trees-paly ... I forgot about the cartridge, I'm sorry, this is really an assault RIG and not a machine gun in my understanding of the word. By the way, and KhK-32 and KhK-33 on what principle worked?
            1. Sour
              Sour 25 December 2013 15: 31
              +1
              Quote: Bosk
              By the way, and KhK-32 and KhK-33 on what principle worked?

              This is a weapon of closer combat (as intended).
              And the principle of automation at "HK" is the same, always. They have the same pistols. They have now even developed roller-locking hunting carbines. This is their style. And they are patented.
              By the way, simple and ingenious.
              1. Bosk
                Bosk 25 December 2013 15: 42
                0
                Well, I would not call the weapon under 7.62-39 and 5.56-45 a melee weapon ..., thanks for the information. The company is really interesting, I would even say peculiar.
                1. Sour
                  Sour 25 December 2013 15: 53
                  +1
                  Quote: Bosk
                  melee weapons ..

                  I said - "more melee. "
                  If you do not agree, provide data on the aiming range.
                  One out of two:
                  1) Or read carefully.
                  2) Or stop juggling other people's words.
                  And then you will be happy.
                  1. Bosk
                    Bosk 25 December 2013 17: 09
                    0
                    I agree, I will read more carefully and let happiness awaken me.
  29. Altona
    Altona 25 December 2013 11: 38
    +1
    Quote: Postman
    cartridge by the way is not the last ..
    For reference, like this:
    After the war, the city of Suhl falls into the zone of responsibility of the Soviet Army. In August of the same year at CG Haenel, 50 pieces of Stg-44 were mounted and transferred to the USSR for technical evaluation. At the same time, 10 sheets of technical drawings are exported.

    -------------------------
    And what? We looked, compared, creatively comprehended with their weapons, landlizovskim and in general, as it was ... The Americans did not bother about such small things, they immediately needed enriched uranium and nuclear technology ...

    But the topic of the intermediate cartridge did not fall from the sky, but matured during the fighting in order to conduct effective fire at ranges of 400-700 meters ...
    1. Sour
      Sour 25 December 2013 11: 51
      +1
      Quote: Altona
      But the topic of the intermediate cartridge did not fall from the sky, but matured during the fighting in order to conduct effective fire at ranges of 400-700 meters ...

      Nevertheless, the NATO cartridge 7.62 by 51, adopted after the war, is actually a "normal" rifle cartridge, not an intermediate one. The same G-3, which was allegedly mentioned here as the successor of the SG-44 design, is not a weapon for an intermediate cartridge.
    2. uladzimir.surko
      uladzimir.surko 25 December 2013 13: 09
      0
      The topic of the intermediate cartridge was proposed "twice" by Major General Vladimir Georgivich Fedorov back in 1913 hi
      1. Bosk
        Bosk 25 December 2013 14: 19
        +1
        Fedorov circa 1909-1913 developed an intermediate cartridge of improved ballistics of 6.5 mm, but in connection with the outbreak of war, it was decided to use the Arisak cartridge. Once again, information slipped somewhere that before the WWII in the Union, work was underway on an intermediate cartridge of caliber 5.45, though to be honest, I heard this information from oral sources and as long as I didn’t break through on NET.
        1. Roman 1977
          Roman 1977 25 December 2013 14: 28
          +3
          Well Vlad, Fedorov in 1913 began testing his automatic rifle under a 6,5 mm cartridge of his own design. Fedorov’s cartridge had a muzzle energy of about 3100 J (versus 3600-4000 J of a full-time Russian 7,62 mm cartridge), which made it more suitable for automatic weapons, and a sleeve without a protruding rim, which made it possible to reliably feed it from a large-capacity store . But with the outbreak of World War I, there was no possibility of mastering and mass production of a new cartridge, and so in 1915, Fedorov adapted his rifle to an even weaker Japanese cartridge of 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka. These cartridges were purposefully purchased by the government along with the Japanese Arisaka carbines and were in stock in significant quantities. The main manufacturers of Japanese-style cartridges for Russia were English firms - Kainok, the Woolwich royal arsenal, as well as the Petrograd cartridge factory (200-300 thousand per month, according to the factory museum). But it should be noted that Fedorov was the ancestor of the weapons system, so in addition to the machine gun he also created a light machine gun.

          Fedorov assault rifle

          Fedorov light machine gun with 25 charging magazine

          air-cooled Fedorov light machine gun similar to the 1915 English Lewis machine gun
          1. Bosk
            Bosk 25 December 2013 15: 23
            +1
            And how many Fedorov in tandem with Dektaryov and Shpagin created ... it is not surprising that with such a teacher, really brilliant designers appeared in the Union!
  30. RPD
    RPD 25 December 2013 12: 51
    +1
    I thought they would wait at least a little bit, but no ...
  31. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 25 December 2013 12: 52
    +1
    Something these notorious truth seekers do not bother with is that the American atomic bomb and rocket science is based on German developments, in particular, Werner von Braun. Yes, and certainly much more. Not for nothing that the Yankees at one time took over the ocean all the scientists and developments from Germany that they managed to get to.
  32. Narrator.tales
    Narrator.tales 25 December 2013 13: 13
    +4
    Sturmgever that 44, 45 has little in common with AK, to the extent that they are considered different rifles (like the M-16 and AK). AK 46 is another matter, but it was similar to the M1 Garand, and not to Schmeiser. Wikipedia describes this whole problem well, I myself, as the designer of small arms and cannon weapons, say that the AK at the time of its appearance was not only the most advanced machine gun for the aircraft, but also the newest. the same FN FAL is more reminiscent of SCS on the device. Most importantly, all the schemes were known back in the 29th, and Kalashnikov managed to calculate everything so that the machine was perfect at that time, matching everything perfectly, sizes, characteristics, etc. Believe me and try to calculate the machine from scratch so that everything is perfect - you can’t, no one, I know that. Sturmgever was very hot and more difficult to manufacture, all the machines participating in the competition with AK in one way or another had serious flaws: Sudaevsky was too heavy, Bulkina was too unreliable, noting that the weight and reliability for the machine were almost the most important thing in battle. Who doubts, read about these machines. As a result, what was adequate in other countries was only possible with the advent of AR-10 (1954)
    1. Kolovrat77
      Kolovrat77 25 December 2013 13: 42
      0
      Quote: Narrator.tales
      I myself as the designer of small arms and cannon weapons say that FN FAL is more reminiscent of SCS

      The first time I've heard. Enlighten as a constructor. With all due respect.
      1. Sour
        Sour 25 December 2013 14: 25
        0
        Quote: Kolovrat77
        The first time I've heard. Enlighten as a constructor. With all due respect.

        Probably, this refers to the method of locking the bore - skew shutter down. But this is not the fundamental know-how of Simonov.
        1. Kolovrat77
          Kolovrat77 25 December 2013 16: 53
          +2
          And I think Mr. Designer had in mind the achievements of Tokorev, which the Belgian gentlemen had knocked down and at the same time sleeping quietly without worrying about who invented the main shop and it was dripping and buzzing.
  33. Ripper
    Ripper 25 December 2013 13: 22
    -14%
    From Minsk. Hugo Schmeiser was really not so much a designer as a production organizer, but it is certain that his employees took a direct part in the construction of the Soviet automatic machine. And when they began to think what to name the new weapon, it turned out that prominent Soviet arms designers, such as Georgy Shpagin or Vasily Degtyarev, were ashamed to put their name under someone else's invention. Another thing is the young nugget Mikhail Kalashnikov, who, like the national academician Trofim Lysenko, did not have any special training. Over time, Mikhail Timofeevich sincerely believed that it was he who invented the famous machine gun, and just as sincerely resented the fact that he was replicated abroad without buying a Russian license. Well, blessed are those who believe.
    After the creation of the AK, the question arose of what to call it. In the USSR then there was a tradition to call weapons by the name of the authors. To name a new weapon in another way was to break tradition and arouse suspicion. It was unacceptable for ideological reasons to name the new machine gun after Hitler’s gunsmith.
    We thought for a long time and called the weapon the name of a young, handsome and talented young inventor and part-time secretary of the Komsomol organization of the KB Izhmash Mikhail Kalashnikov. So the legend of the national inventor went on for a walk without special education, Sergeant Kalashnikov. Very characteristic of the Soviet ideology of that time. Then suddenly a lot of scientific geniuses surfaced - nuggets without education in all sectors. Starting from the notorious Michurin and Lysenko, to academician of agricultural sciences Terenty Maltsev and gunsmith Mikhail Kalashnikov. The legend that the outstanding weapon was not invented by a team of designers under the ideological leadership of a hereditary gunsmith, the devil knows for how many generations, and the self-taught sergeant, a native of the people, was very impressed with the ideologists of that time.

    By the way: the name of the product by the name of the author is an anachronism of the 19th century. When inventors worked - loners. In the 20th century, teams of designers and scientists are still inventing. It is not possible to single out the labor of each of the collective labor. So they appoint someone the main genius. Or for ideological reasons - Komsomolets, as in the USSR or for national reasons, or for clan.

    Under the USSR, Kalashnikov’s authorities did not favor PiAr. Maybe the designer was classified? Maybe ... Or maybe they remembered HOW they appointed him the main weapon genius? And now they were bombarded with titles and awards. Either they forgot, or again for ideological reasons, to which marketing considerations were added.

    Kalashnikov turned out to be an intelligent guy. Contact, a good organizer and lobbyist. And later he headed the design bureau and headed it for many, many years. But when he was the general designer, the famous AK did not undergo any significant changes. He improved technologically.
    1. Shurale
      Shurale 25 December 2013 14: 39
      0
      And do you need it?
  34. Imperial
    Imperial 25 December 2013 13: 33
    +9
    Not too lazy, climbed onto foreign sites to read comments on the death of M.T. Kalashnikov. And what? The same Yankees (I would say: the vast majority) speak with great respect about Mikhail Timofeevich. And what I noticed, in many comments it sounds that Schmeisser is more a businessman than a constructor, many of them (Janeks) have AKs and they are not happy about it (people live) fellow
    1. Shurale
      Shurale 25 December 2013 14: 37
      +3
      The "Effel" tower was also not designed by Efel, however. The organizer was. And Morse, by the way, is also not himself, but the alphabet bears his name.
      1. RPD
        RPD 25 December 2013 14: 58
        0
        But about Morse can be more detailed? just wondering
        1. Shurale
          Shurale 25 December 2013 16: 37
          0
          Morse, like Eiffel and Schmeiser, was the organizer, and his famous alphabet was developed by a team of smart guys, but the ORGANIZER got the laurels.
  35. mak210
    mak210 25 December 2013 13: 39
    +3
    As Dmitry Rogozin said on TV (I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the quote): “It's time to patent the AK, otherwise everyone’s license terms are over, but they continue to rivet and pay nothing”. My wife and I gasped. Wow! They squeeze every penny from us, but here? I don't understand the problem at all: I caught it on counterfeit - a court in The Hague, we are being dragged there with and without reason and the amount of fines there are monstrous. Here they are "effective managers".

    By the way, when checking patent purity, all these insinuations about the originality of the design will be removed.
    1. postman
      postman 25 December 2013 18: 08
      0
      Quote: mak210
      : "It's time to patent the AK, otherwise all the license terms are over, but they continue to rivet and pay nothing."

      looks like Olegich ... another populist nonsense.
      Only this was said by Anatoly Isaykin.
      1. A patent already exists (although it is not ours, but not the essence):
      Description of corresponding document: WO9905467
      Automatic weapon "Kalashnikov Assault Rifle"
      The invention relates to hand automatic firearms

      Publication number: WO9905467
      Publication date: 1999-02-04
      Inventor: KALASHNIKOV MIKHAIL T (RU); ALEKSANDROV YURI K (RU); BEZBORODOV NIKOLAY A (RU); KALASHNIKOV VIKTOR M (RU); NESTEROV AZARY I (RU); PARANIN VALERY N (RU)
      Applicant: IZHMASH OJSC (RU); RUSPA AG (CH); KALASHNIKOV MIKHAIL T (RU); ALEKSANDROV YURI K (RU); BEZBORODOV NIKOLAY A (RU); KALASHNIKOV VIKTOR M (RU); NESTEROV AZARY I (RU); PARANIN VALERY N (RU)
      Classification:
      - international: F41A5/18; F41A19/33; F41A21/18; F41C23/04; F41C23/22; F41A5/00; F41A19/00; F41A21/00; F41C23/00; (IPC1-7): F41A5/18; F41A19/33; F41A21/18; F41C23/04; F41C23/22
      - european: F41A5/18; F41A19/33; F41A21/18; F41C23/04; F41C23/22
      Application number: WO1997IB01597 19971224
      Priority number (s): EA19970000145 19970724

      2. Try to force China to produce AK under license ....
      ? Can the United States force the licensing of the Russian Federation (the receiver of the USSR) atomic bomb?
      3. The only one who issues AK under a license is THIS VENEZUELA (if I’m not mistaken), and even then ... on our money (a loan at 4-4,5%), and it is unlikely that they will be returned
      4.Military equipment-LICENSE
  36. bunta
    bunta 25 December 2013 13: 46
    0
    http://www.change.org/ru/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8/%D0%BF%D1%80
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    %D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%83-%D1%83%D1%80-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE
    %D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BC-%D1%82-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8
    8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE-%D0%
    BC%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%81%D0%B
    E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5-%D0%B3-%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0
  37. Begemot
    Begemot 25 December 2013 14: 10
    +8
    How tired of these comparisons and insinuations !!!
    The legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle was made by the ingenious in its simplicity and reliability solutions of all the nodes of the assault rifle and the structure as a whole, which provided unprecedented combat capability that was unprecedented in those days. Talking about borrowing is pointless, small arms consist of a specific set of components and mechanisms: barrel, box, shutter, ЗР, USM, sight, butt, shop, etc. It’s like 7 notes that make up all the variety of music. Everything was brilliant in AK: the general concept, the locking mechanism, the calculation of the kickback energy for the automatic operation of the automation, the layout, the trigger, the fire translator are a safety lock, etc., therefore, our army does not have a co-instructor in the staff who is responsible for troubleshooting CO problems, basically, the extraction of sleeves stuck in the chamber, It should not be forgotten that the design of mass RM should still be technologically advanced and inexpensive, while ensuring the necessary combat qualities. I believe that Kalashnikov knew well the condition of the machine tool fleet, the general level of production culture in the country and deliberately laid down solutions that would be within the scope of our defense industry at that time, but that would not reduce the combat potential of the model. It is clear that the team led by Kalashnikov was already engaged in fine-tuning the ideal state of the machine, but this does not detract from his merits. As for Schmeiser, he lived in Izhevsk and according to factory documents, was engaged in the development of AK production technologies. Therefore, alien, pure constructions, alien advanced and adapted constructions and own inventions, put together in a single complex, which has become the world standard for many years, is a brilliant solution.
  38. tank64rus
    tank64rus 25 December 2013 14: 31
    +7
    How tired of these liberals. During the war, the Germans copied the shape of the T-34 corps for their "Panther" and they didn’t give a damn about it, but ours did not shout about this, but calmly fought. My father, as a "master of firing contacts" was a member of the commission for the acceptance of an AK assault rifle into service. Kalashnikov and told, gave comments on this or that shortcoming, he listened very carefully and wrote it down in a notebook. In general, everyone was very surprised by the Constructor - it was a senior sergeant-tanker. I recalled that one of the requirements was to equip the machine gun with a bayonet, to which the Designer said that then a bipod would be needed, but it was said, either a bayonet but without legs or nothing. A bayonet-knife appeared. All this was told to me back in 65. Eternal Memory to the Chief Designer!
  39. xoma58
    xoma58 25 December 2013 14: 33
    +7
    The fact that they attack Kalashnikov is quite understandable. They always try to spoil great people and geniuses of mediocrity and cast doubt on his merits. And then there's Russian genius, but how can this be allowed. And we have enough corrupt creatures.
  40. Shurale
    Shurale 25 December 2013 14: 34
    +6
    The constant raising of the question of "plagiarism" of Kalashnikov, in my opinion, has nothing to do with either Kalashnikov or Schmeiser. This is another drop in the bowl of an attempt to restructure the brains of young people, in order to prove that there has never been anything good in Russia, all drunks, mediocrities and thieves. For some reason, no one talks about how they steal in the west, although this is understandable, it’s not the west but us that hate. In this regard, I don’t understand why our propaganda machine is still "on the side track"? After all, to tell how rotten the West is even to lie is not necessary - it is enough just to tell the TRUTH.
  41. alex-cn
    alex-cn 25 December 2013 14: 48
    +2
    People, well, how much you can argue about the obvious, let's better admit that everyone copied the guns of Joachim Schwartz, or who made the first karamultuk there ... There is a trunk, umm - there is, an butt is, all the other copyists repeat
    1. Bosk
      Bosk 25 December 2013 15: 19
      +2
      I now have a question ... Which poor fellow had a "wheel" slammed?
  42. demotivator
    demotivator 25 December 2013 14: 59
    +4
    All modern aircraft, one and all, are roughly similar to each other. The nose is teardrop-shaped, and the body generally mimics the configuration of dolphins. This is inevitable because the laws of physics are the same for everyone. So what if the AK-47 has a lot in common with other foreign models? And let the AK-47 be like two drops like "stormgiver MP-44"! Our working hands in Tula and Izhevsk "brought" this invention "to mind" (after all, Lefty did not invent or invent the English flea that Danse made, he only shod it, but the English masters made it in Liverpool) - but Lefty got fame!
    So it is with us - Mikhail Kalashnikov gained fame, who "shod" a German flea and made a submachine gun (a family of submachine guns) with which I served, and my son served, and my grandchildren are already serving.
    1. stroporez
      stroporez 26 December 2013 09: 17
      0
      so exactly ..... "Kalash" more than once pulled out our scruffs. and I deeply don’t care who has slammed who. The main thing is he is. US ........
  43. The comment was deleted.
  44. Selevc
    Selevc 25 December 2013 15: 52
    0
    The Germans were the first in the creation of the latest types of weapons during the Second World War ... And if, for example, we had jet planes and missiles only in drawings and prototypes, then they already had all this in series ... The first assault rifle, grenade launcher, night vision sight, the first combat cruise and ballistic missiles, helicopters, jet aircraft and much more - Hitler's words about the miracle weapons are true !!! But fascist Germany, fortunately for the rest of the world, did not have time to properly develop and master all this ... MP-2 is the first and still "raw" version of a fundamentally new weapon, in contrast to the AK, whose design was "polished to shine" ... Germany simply did not have time to improve the MP-44 ...
    AK of course is not a copy of the MP-44, but the influence is felt like for example it is not felt at all if you compare the MP-44 with the M-14 for example ... the USSR did not disdain copying advanced technical ideas after the war - R-1 is a copy of the FAU-2, TU- 4 is a detailed copy of the B-29 ... So what of this bad? After all, a country that was destroyed and half dead from the post-war hungry years needed to build on something in order to compete with the leading world powers ...

    And by the way, after the war, a whole group of German designers worked on Izhmash, including the same Hugo Schmeiser, and I think that they made a lot of efforts to create the first samples of the same AK-47 !!!
    1. Sour
      Sour 25 December 2013 16: 25
      +6
      Quote: Selevc
      but the effect is felt

      In fact, the SG-44 and AK-47 have only 4 things in common:
      1) Pistol grip fire control.
      2) Wooden butt.
      3) Sector magazine with 2-row arrangement of cartridges.
      4) The upper location of the vent device.
      That's all. The rest, such as having a front sight, a barrel, a shutter and a trigger, is less interesting. These are no longer features. Numerous and important differences begin next. I have listed them above.
      But these four general points not an invention the creators of SG-44. This was known before them.
      And the creation of the AK-47 should not be confused with the cloning of the B-29. This is not the case. Tu-4 is indeed a Soviet version of the B-29. But the AK-47 can be called the Soviet version of the Schmeisser either by a dumbass who understands nothing about weapons, or a liar.
      1. Selevc
        Selevc 25 December 2013 16: 56
        +3
        Quote: Sour
        But the AK-47 can be called the Soviet version of the Schmeisser either by a dumbass who understands nothing about weapons, or a liar.

        The AK-47 is not the Soviet version of Schmeisser - but the role of German designers in creating Soviet post-war models of weapons, including small arms, is still little known ... At one time, the popular version was that German experts really did not create anything and only sabotaged the work - But was it really that Schmeisser's group was engaged in sabotage for the whole 6 years (from 1946 to 1952)? Hardly believe anything - under Stalin, in the event of sabotage, the Germans would quickly get from the factory bureau to the camp bunks ...
        MP-44 was the first and only mass-produced weapon for 1945 that combined the advantages of a submachine gun and rifle - and this progressive idea at that time was generally accepted sooner or later by all small arms manufacturing countries and the USSR one of the first ...
      2. alex-cn
        alex-cn 25 December 2013 17: 03
        0
        And the Germans came up with KATYUSHA, and the T-34, and the SVT ... and they invented much more ... stop
        I'm sorry, I was indignant and did not read the comment below
        1. Altona
          Altona 25 December 2013 17: 24
          +2
          Quote: alex-cn
          And the Germans came up with Katyusha, and T-34, and SVT ... and much more they invented ..

          ------------------------------
          Selevc is right, and there is no need to suffocate from righteous anger ... In Nazi Germany, many samples of technology appeared that are still relevant and survive the 4th and 5th generations ... Even the idea of ​​the Shuttle-Buran shuttle is also greetings from Nazi Germany, they invented "flying high-speed irons" such as Me-163, a missile interceptor ... Generally, I repeat once again, but even your laptop (computer) is also an echo of war, it was in the middle of the last century that you learned how to make pure silicon ... About missiles and nuclear bombs are not even worth mentioning ...
          1. alex-cn
            alex-cn 25 December 2013 18: 01
            +3
            And I don’t say that everything was invented by ours, but it’s also not necessary to say that everything is only from there
            Both they and we had our breakthroughs
        2. Sour
          Sour 26 December 2013 12: 44
          +2
          Quote: alex-cn
          And the Germans came up with KATYUSHA, and the T-34, and the SVT ... and they invented much more ...

          And the red flag over the Reichstag, probably, they also sewed ...
    2. andrey682006
      andrey682006 25 December 2013 18: 07
      0
      What did the Germans create?
      Jet aircraft - mass-produced? laughing Series size jet Messerschmitt not name?
      Will we compare the effectiveness and mass application of the FAA and Soviet rocket mortars on the fronts?
      Would you name the model of the first assault rifle?
      Tanks You strangely walked around ...
      Grabowski gun too.
      By the way, are they the first helicopter too and also - in series? wassat
      There are only flying saucers left ... laughing
      About Hugo Schmeiser just read the forum above. His merit is minimal, his German team must have done more than him.
      1. Cynic
        Cynic 25 December 2013 19: 14
        +2
        Quote: andrey682006
        What did the Germans create?

        Enough, a lot more grabbed in Europe.
        Quote: andrey682006
        Jet aircraft - mass-produced?

        Released. Released.
        262 somewhere around fifteen hundred pieces released, 163 about half a thousand. Well Heinkels 163s a couple more hundred pieces
        In fact, it is generally recognized _ Me-262 the first serial combat jet fighter.

        Quote: andrey682006
        Will we compare the effectiveness and mass application of the FAA and Soviet rocket mortars on the fronts?

        "And then Ostap suffered"
        ...
        Do not flaunt your ignorance, do not.
        The Soviet soldier does not need to belittle the achievements of the enemy in order to be exalted!
  45. samoletil18
    samoletil18 25 December 2013 16: 05
    +1
    IMPORTANT: price, quality, reliability, ease of maintenance. Ease of development. Someone will offer similar from other gunsmiths? And AK even mastered chimpanzees from the famous movie. And I served with the AK-74.
    There is a genius - this is Mikhail Timofeevich Klashnikov. And there is a performer. even if talented (?) in something like H. Schmeiser, for example.
  46. Strashila
    Strashila 25 December 2013 16: 46
    +6
    Just come to the history of the matter ... when Germany during the Second World War was without an automatic rifle, she tried to follow the path of modern Chinese comrades, stupidly make a copy of the SVT-40, the same success with an attempt to reproduce a diesel for V-2 tanks .. failure, for all their developed industry they could not make a quality copy.
    As a solution, the idea of ​​an intermediate cartridge appeared and was realized.
    With the same success we can say that the SG-43/44 ... replica of the faculty ... and the horn and pistol grip, but correctly in the end all this is not right.
    The essence of AK is that there in the first was applied a completely new version of locking the trunk in this his know-how.
    But about everything else ... you can send everyone to the Fedorov machine.
    1. Cynic
      Cynic 25 December 2013 17: 05
      +3
      Quote: Strashila
      But about everything else ... you can send everyone to the Fedorov machine.

      You can, I think, and away!

      About
  47. Altona
    Altona 25 December 2013 17: 13
    0
    Quote: Postman
    It is one of the world's largest suppliers of automotive components (headlights, lights, starters, alternators, ignition modules, plugs, clutch, wipers, brake system parts, electronics, security systems, etc.), including to the conveyor of such manufacturers as Ford, BMW , Mercedes, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Renault-Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen.
    http://www.valeo.com/en

    ----------------------------
    I didn’t come across, to be honest ... And there are a lot of the world's largest suppliers ... This is Knorr-Bremse, Wabco, Magna, Danfoss ... I myself am a hydraulics worker by training, I am engaged in trailer topics ...
    One moment only, it is not necessary to dump manufacturers and concrete inventors into a heap ... Because you began to mention a specific name - Robert August Bosch ...
  48. konvalval
    konvalval 25 December 2013 17: 14
    +3
    And let these accusers of plagiarism tell why all the subsequent samples of small arms developed by MT Kalashnikov were copied.
  49. shinobi
    shinobi 25 December 2013 17: 19
    +1
    Similar technical requirements give rise to common engineering solutions. Anyone, even a poor student, who has an engineering and technical education will say this. Therefore, attempts by liberalists to accuse Kalashnikov of plagiarism are blatant insinuations. In general, engineering thought most often follows parallel paths. For which the Germans must be given their due, what they first realized and began to take advantage of the intermediate cartridge for assault rifles.
  50. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 25 December 2013 17: 24
    +5
    In Russia, protection against slanderers and spiteful critics is poorly developed.
    If criminal punishment was inevitably followed for slanderous statements addressed to M. Kalashnikov and other Soviet inventors and designers, the villains would not dare to slander.