Military Review

Who and what made Patriotism of General Vlasov? Part one

113
The course of “perestroika”, announced by Gorbachev some time after he came to the post of general secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, turned out to be closely linked not only with “progressive” economic ideas, but also with new ideas, let's say, of a humanitarian nature. It was from the second half of the eighties that new interpretations of the “correctness” of fiction, art and even stories. The so-called liberal historiographic science began to come into vogue, the main thesis of which was approximately as follows: you can forget everything that was included in the concept of “studying history” before - now you need to take a course on “restructuring” public opinion about the course of national and world history; New historiography and historiosophy should be fashionable ... This thesis "untied" hands to those who believed that they were connected - and the new historical science, like a stream of feces, began to overwhelm both the educational field and public life in general.


Historiographic sensations and pseudo-sensations began to be born in such a volume that, it seemed, literally everyone who saw a “creative grain” saw themselves as describing the course of historical events. The concept of “liberal historian” was born. And if initially the concept and activities of such people seemed very interesting both to professionals and ordinary people, over time the liberal epithet turned into a frankly abusive one. The liberal historian today is perceived not at all as a historian, but as someone who is overly eager for a sensation, and a sensation aimed exclusively at the cultivation of Russophobia or dubious values.

The Katyn case, the battles of the Great Patriotic War, the Russian revolutions, the role of individuals in the history of the state, the era of industrialization, the era of imperial reforms of the middle of the 19 century - these are just an incomplete list of what if not turned upside down, then served with spicy sauce. With such a sharp, that history and many historians have become frankly similar to, excuse me, corrupt girls - who pays, that “girl and dances”, he and “dines” ...

One of the topics that many representatives of the so-called creative community wanted to spice up with their own sauce was the topic of betrayal of General Vlasov. At the beginning of the 2000-x (apparently, on the post-perestroika wave), voices that General Vlasov was no longer a traitor, that he was a true Russian patriot, who applied forces to fight "vile Bolshevism" and "Stalinism", began to erupt. One of the first ideas to rehabilitate the “honest” name of General Vlasov was born by Sergey Belavenets (he is the monk Nikon, a member of the council of the so-called Russian nobility assembly, winner of two awards of the Russian Imperial House, confessor of the movement “For Faith and Fatherland”). His example was followed by representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR), who after the publication in 2009 of the book of the priest of the ROC, Archpriest George Mitrofanov, “The Tragedy of Russia:" forbidden "themes of the history of the 20th century in church preaching and journalism," also decided to reflect on glorification of Andrei Vlasov.

Who and what made Patriotism of General Vlasov? Part one


And here are some of the fruits of a liberal approach to the essence of national history in excerpts from readers' comments on Vlasov’s materials in the media:

Some Hukku writes:
General Vlasov was a great man. The embodiment of his manifesto could save the country. And the result of Stalin’s activity was a miserable existence.


Quotation from Wikipedia:
Andrei Andreevich Vlasov - Soviet commander (Lieutenant-General), a participant in the Battle of Moscow. He commanded the 2 th shock army, in the course of the Luban offensive in 1942, he was captured in Germany and cooperated with the leadership of the Third Reich against the political system of the USSR.


Against the political system, it turns out, the "great" man went ...

The ideas of rehabilitation and even the glorification of General Vlasov and all those who subsequently rose up under the banner of the ROA (Russian Liberation Army), in fact having taken the oath of allegiance to Hitlerite Germany, began to move actively in the media environment. The promotion of these ideas was carried out and continues to be quite active and persistent. So, for example, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR held a seminar in which the topic of General Vlasov was assigned a special role. Here are some excerpts from that seminar:

The tragedy of those who are called “Vlasovists”, i.e. members of the movement, on the basis of which emerged the Russian Liberation Army (ROA), is truly great. In any case, it should be comprehended with all possible impartiality and objectivity. Beyond this understanding, historical science is turning into political journalism. We think that in order to better understand what was happening in Russia - and with Russia - in the crucial years of the past century, a “black and white” interpretation of historical events should be avoided. These events, by their very nature, were so complex, internally contradictory and multi-layered, that an attempt to characterize them with any one word-concept was doomed to failure in advance. In particular, the naming of the genes. A.A. Vlasov is a betrayal, in our opinion, there is a frivolous simplification of the events of that time.


So, the ROCOR urges historians to deviate from the “black and white” interpretations, to delve deeper into the essence of the issue. Well, it is certainly necessary to delve into the essence of the question, but only the following quotation contains words that immediately negate this call:

Was there a gene. A.A. Vlasov and his associates - traitors to Russia? - we answer - no, not at all. Everything that they did was done precisely for the Fatherland, in the hope that the defeat of Bolshevism would lead to the re-establishment of a powerful national Russia. Germany was considered by the "Vlasovites" exclusively as an ally in the struggle against Bolshevism, but they, the "Vlasovists", were ready, if necessary, to resist the armed force of any kind of colonization or dismemberment of our Motherland. Paraphrasing the famous statement of the late Russian philosopher Alexander Zinoviev, a gene. A.A. Vlasov and his entourage, “aiming at communism,” made every conceivable effort to “not get into Russia.” And these sentiments, these aspirations were not particularly hidden in the “Vlasov” environment, and that is why the haters of Russia, both in Germany itself and in other countries, did everything they could to prevent the timely creation of an efficient Russian Liberation Army, and especially - the Russian national government.


That is, at least, the inconsistency is obvious here. The Synod of Bishops calls not to slip to exclusively “white” or exclusively “black” in the interpretation of the course of history, but immediately declares that General Vlasov is not a traitor, but a fighter with Bolshevism ... Even without half tones ... Interesting logic ...

ROCOR, a number of dignitaries of the Russian Orthodox Church, as well as liberal interpreters of history, have been trying for a long enough period to present Andrei Vlasov as a heroic figure that the illiberal historians unjustly slandered. And they try, despite the fact that in November 2001 of the year, the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation refused to rehabilitate General Vlasov and many so-called “Vlasovites”.

So, what are the main points of supporters of the idea that Vlasov is not a traitor, Vlasov is a true Russian patriot.

Main idea: Andrei Vlasov (already outside the USSR) himself pronounces an accusatory anti-Stalin and anti-Bolshevik speech. Like, what is there to think and guess when a quick general presents us his point of view.
But is it your own? .. Or even not so, but how many general points of view did General Vlasov have? ..

Referring to that speech - the so-called Prague Manifesto (manifesto of the “Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia”) 1944 of the year. We present excerpts from this speech (video version -

:

The Bolsheviks took away the freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of the individual, freedom of residence and movement, freedom of industry and the ability of every person to occupy a place in society in accordance with their abilities. They replaced these freedoms with terror, party privileges and arbitrariness perpetrated on man. The peoples of Russia forever lost faith in Bolshevism. The committee aims to overthrow the Stalinist tyranny, liberate the peoples of Russia from the Bolshevik system and return the rights won by the 1917 people's revolution to the people of Russia, end the war and make an honorable peace with Germany, create a new free statehood without the Bolsheviks and exploiters.


What a fine general Vlasov! - exclaim in the ROCOR. What are the right words said Vlasov! - echo them those who firmly believe in the patriotism of the escaped general. Yes, he wanted to use the power of the German army to create a sovereign Russian state free from Bolshevik "tyranny"! - say the same people.

But after all, bad luck ... Neither the ROCOR, nor among other modern fans of the ROA and General Vlasov does not take into account other documentary evidence related to the name of the fugitive general.

The end of the 1 part.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Who and what made Patriotism of General Vlasov? Part one
Who and what made Patriotism of General Vlasov? Part two
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  1. malikszh
    malikszh 24 December 2013 08: 33
    +51
    he is a traitor to Vlasov and no need to make a hero out of him !!! and Gorbachev also relate to them!
    1. mirag2
      mirag2 24 December 2013 08: 56
      +49
      Who made Vlasov a hero?
      The same people who made Nicholas II a saint!
      Saints Matrosov had to be announced, or the captain from the Brest Fortress, the one who died for his homeland and his comrades ...
      1. sergey72
        sergey72 24 December 2013 09: 24
        +20
        Quote: mirag2
        The same people who made Nicholas II a saint!

        Golden words!
        1. RussianRu
          RussianRu 24 December 2013 10: 20
          +24
          Was there a gene. A.A. Vlasov and his associates - traitors to Russia? - we answer - no, not at all. Everything that was undertaken by them was done specifically for the Fatherland, in the hope that the defeat of Bolshevism would lead to the re-creation of a powerful national Russia. Germany was viewed by the "Vlasovites" solely as an ally in the fight against Bolshevism, but they, the "Vlasovites" were ready, if necessary, to resist any kind of colonization or dismemberment of our Motherland by armed force

          Cool. But what about Hitler's words about the Slavs? What fate awaited all non-Aryans? Defeat Hitler in the war.

          And what, this pathetic bunch of traitors could withstand a powerful German army?

          Traitors and those who try to justify a traitor.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. smile
        smile 24 December 2013 14: 55
        +12
        mirag2
        In fact, you said right, everything is true ... but there is a nuance - note that this is not about the ROC, but about the ROCA - about the Russian Orthodox Church BEYOND.

        But this office knows what dudu sings ... Officially broke with the Russian Orthodox Church in some twenty-one year - after the Russian Orthodox Church officially supported the Soviet Government.

        In the USSR, this office was rightly viewed as a counter-revolutionary, anti-Soviet monarchist "emigrant religious-political group" - it cooperated with all the enemies of the USSR and Russia, which it could find.

        Now they seem to have reunited again, but the ROCOR is completely self-governing and the people in it have remained the same as before .... so it’s not surprising that they praise the Nazi traitor - they are completely ready in their hatred of the Communists destroy the Russian people and make a deal even with the Lightbringer (Lucifer) will go.
        1. Pushkar
          Pushkar 24 December 2013 23: 06
          +1
          Quote: smile
          mirag2
          In fact, you said right, everything is true ... but there is a nuance - note that this is not about the ROC, but about the ROCA - about the Russian Orthodox Church BEYOND.
          Scroll through the article carefully
          "ROCOR, a number of dignitaries of the ROC"- this is repeated in every paragraph.
          1. AX
            AX 25 December 2013 11: 05
            0
            I agree with you ... Carefully you need to read the text ...
      4. JackTheRipper
        JackTheRipper 24 December 2013 15: 12
        +6
        Quote: mirag2
        The same people who made Nicholas II a saint!


        Initially, in the 90s, Rasputin was thought through with him to be counted among the holy martyrs - such an idea was, but they caught on in time.
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. Airman
      Airman 24 December 2013 11: 41
      +9
      Quote: malikszh
      he is a traitor to Vlasov and no need to make a hero out of him !!! and Gorbachev also relate to them!

      Well, licking in civilian life at all times were at the top, Vlasov and the humpbacked were no exception, but in a difficult situation they became traitors.
    3. tchack
      tchack 24 December 2013 14: 43
      -30%
      100% traitors can be called Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Khrushchev, Trotsky ...
      but certainly not General Vlasov !!!

      There are too many inconsistencies in his "betrayals" ...

      In my opinion, if the ROA had been led by someone else, or the Germans would have decided not to use the ROA at all, it is not a fact that the Red Army would have reached Berlin so quickly ...

      Thanks to the leadership of Vlasov, the Red Army received many gaps in the front ...

      According to my guesses, he is a deeply secret agent or leader of the 5 column in Germany ...

      And you can recall the case of the Black Chapel ...
      1. dmb
        dmb 24 December 2013 15: 31
        +18
        I would like to write you a lengthy answer, but I think it is pointless. If you wrote to "post", then you chose an unsuccessful topic. Humor of this kind is typical for people with little education, laughing, over a slipped person instead of helping him to rise. If you wrote seriously, then I recommend reading books first. and not the revelations of idiots on the "yellow" sites. for the phrase "according to my guesses" is appropriate only in that case. if your guesses are based on factual material.
      2. RussianRu
        RussianRu 24 December 2013 16: 01
        +4
        Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov (14 of September 1901, Lomakino village, Nizhny Novgorod province, Russian Empire - 1 of August 1946, Moscow, USSR) - Soviet military leader (lieutenant general), participant in the Battle of Moscow. He commanded the 2 shock army, during the Luban offensive operation in 1942, [2] was captured by the Germans and collaborated with the leadership of the Third Reich against the political system of the USSR, becoming the head of the military organization of collaborators from Soviet prisoners of war and emigrants - the Russian Liberation Army ( ROA). The leader of [3] [4] [5] of the Russian liberation movement [6], chairman of the Presidium of the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia (1944 — 1945), commander in chief of the ROA (January 28 - May 12 1945). In 1945, he was captured by the Red Army, in 1946 he was convicted of treason, deprived of his military rank, state awards and executed.

        This is from Wikipedia, so beloved by the liberals.
        According to my guesses, he is a deeply secret agent or leader of the 5 column in Germany ...

        Executed !!! So was he a merchant?

        Do not make people laugh.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. CALL.
        CALL. 1 January 2014 08: 21
        0
        Quote: tchack
        100% traitors can be called Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Khrushchev, Trotsky ... but certainly not General Vlasov !!!


        Now we have discovered the Russian general Vlasov. With Russian generals a special thing. Our brigadenfuhrer Fegelein captured this Russian general. I guarantee you, from almost every Russian general we can make Vlasov! It will be unbelievably cheap. And this Russian, whom we captured, costs us nothing at all. He was the commander of one shock army.
        Our brave Fegelein said to his people: Let’s try to treat him as if he were a general indeed! And famously stood before him at attention: “Mr. General, Mr. General!” After all, everyone is pleased to listen. And here it worked too. Still, this man after all had the Order of Lenin, number 770 ...
        So, this general was treated properly, terribly polite, terribly sweet. In accordance with their peculiarities, the Slavs willingly listen when they are told: “You know this much better than us,” they like to be kindly listened, to debate a little. This man issued all his divisions, his entire offensive plan, and in general everything he knew. The price for this treason? On the third day, we told this general something like this: the fact that there is no turning back to you is true to you. But you are a significant person, and we guarantee you that when the war ends, you will receive the lieutenant general's pension, and in the near future - here you have schnapps, cigarettes and women. That's how cheap you can buy such a general! Very cheap. You see, in such things you need to have a damn accurate calculation. Such a person costs 20 thousand marks a year. Let him live 10 or 15 years, this is 300 thousand marks. If only one battery fires for two days, it also costs 300 thousand marks.
        But it’s dangerous to make a big political program out of a Slav, which ultimately can turn against us. In all this matter of Vlasov’s propaganda, I felt great fear. Actually, I'm not a pessimist, and I rarely get excited. But this business seemed to me dangerous.
        It seemed dangerous to me at the very moment when I began to receive letters from German soldiers stating that we underestimated the Russian man. He is not a robot and not ok, as we know from our propaganda. This is an orderly nation that is oppressed. We must instill in him National Socialism and create a Russian nationalist party. Russians have their own ideals. And then Mr. Vlasov’s ideas arrived: Russia was never defeated by Germany; Russia can only be defeated by the Russians themselves.
        And this Russian pig Mr. Vlasov offers his services for this. Some old people in our country wanted to give this man a millionth army. They wanted to give this unreliable type weapons and equipment so that he could move with this weapon against Russia, or maybe once, which is very likely, what good, and against ourselves!
        From a speech in front of the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter in Poznan, October 6, 1943
    4. Airman
      Airman 24 December 2013 18: 05
      +6
      Quote: malikszh
      he is a traitor to Vlasov and no need to make a hero out of him !!! and Gorbachev also relate to them!

      Where is the logic? If Vlasov is not a traitor, then those tens of millions of our people who defeated fascism are traitors. Even the West recognizes the role of the USSR in the victory over fascism. Making Vlasov a hero is the height of cretinism.
      1. alone
        alone 24 December 2013 23: 13
        +3
        That’s all, they survived. Vlasov and the hero)) So in a year or two we can list False Dmitry to the heroes))

        Awww !! are you alright? since when did traitors become heroes? Can someone explain to me what the meaning of the article is? Can he also give the hero of the Soviet Union for his betrayal7
  2. ivshubarin
    ivshubarin 24 December 2013 08: 38
    +29
    Liberalism ... (many, many foul language). They will soon make Hitler a great martyr
    1. stroporez
      stroporez 24 December 2013 10: 20
      +19
      but how else, he fought with communism, with the totalitarian regime fought ...
      1. RussianRu
        RussianRu 24 December 2013 10: 24
        +6
        Smiled. Briefly and to the point.
        Many, many pluses to your comment.
    2. Aryan
      Aryan 24 December 2013 10: 47
      +7
      Quote: ivshubarin
      Liberalism ... (many, many foul language). They will soon make Hitler a great martyr


      Her
      It was Hitler who "made" Europe
      and already Hitler was "made" by the Soviet People

      and as always, comments will be as interesting and important as the article itself
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. officer29
      officer29 24 December 2013 13: 29
      +8
      By the way, in the light of current events taking place in the geyrop, there is an increase, the so-called national identity, the voices of neo-Nazis, whose leaders are getting closer and closer to power (France, Austria, Belgium, etc.) are getting louder. So with their freedoms and the canonization of Hitler is not far ... belay
    5. CALL.
      CALL. 24 December 2013 18: 23
      +3
      Yes, the Euro-Parliament already equated Hitlerism with Stalinism. And then the blame for the outbreak of World War II will be hanged on the USSR. With this act they rehabilitate themselves.
  3. Baron Wrangell
    Baron Wrangell 24 December 2013 08: 39
    +31
    he is a bastard!
    Here is the general Karbyshev hero!
    And they hanged him, and there he cherished.
    No matter how his "exploits" are described, he did what his name would be damned. he betrayed his people! his homeland, and went to lick this place to the aggressor.
  4. Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 24 December 2013 08: 44
    +17
    Uguk, he is a bastard. which was believed by the highest ranks, who had the experience of withdrawing troops from the encirclement and offensive operations, barges everything and, waving white ports with strange spots, runs to bow to the enemy.
    That's just the question for everyone - even white generals (I’m silent in the Soviet Union, for some it is fiction and lies) seeing that a hopeless situation fired to preserve the remnants of conscience and honor.
    Since he is so all in white - why didn’t he, reptile, shoot himself?

    Let's not do a substitution of concepts - we call sodomites - pedarasts, so a traitor must be called an enemy and nothing else, and no matter what motivated him.
    1. klim44
      klim44 24 December 2013 16: 24
      -7
      Vlasov is a traitor, definitely. But the way he became, the situation his army was in, and he was appointed commander already when the army almost suffered a catastrophe, do not forget about it. And his 20th Army was in the lead roles in the battle of Moscow, so he did not run away with white ports captive. By the way, Admiral Oktyabrsky threw his fighters in Sevastopol and flew away to fight on - you don’t think such behavior of the commander is strange, leave your army and be saved alone. But Vlasov shared the fate of his soldiers to the end, and what became a traitor is certainly bad.
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 24 December 2013 17: 17
        +10
        Quote: klim44
        his 20th army was leading in the battle of Moscow

        Near Moscow, Vlasov was appointed commander of the 20th army, but did not command it, he was in the hospital with an inflammation of the middle ear, and the army was "dragged" by the chief of staff, General L.M. Sandalov. Vlasov received the BKZ for Moscow as part of all the commanders of the front armies, the list was made by Zhukov. Zhukov, by the way, received nothing for Moscow (there was no one to write an idea). And what about "did not run with white ports"
        Hauptmann Ulrich Hardt, the former head of communications of the 4th Aviation Division, said: "Vlasov, in clothes without insignia, was hiding in a bathhouse near the village of Mostki, south of Chudov. He was discovered by the village headman and reported to a German officer passing through the village. When the door was opened and up! ”, Vlasov shouted:“ Do not shoot, I am General Vlasov - the commander of the second shock army. ”Vlasov was interrogated on July 15, 1942 at the headquarters of the 18th German army and, as expected, the information received from the prisoner was sent out with an information letter No. 1379-42 for his units. Here is a summary of the document about the first interrogation of Vlasov. "Explaining that he entered the CPSU (b) in 1930 in order to be able to advance in the service, and complained about the difficult character of Army General K. A Meretsko-ia, the former commander of the 2nd shock, gave detailed information about the structure of the Volkhov front, about the reasons for military failures, praised the work of German artillery and aviation, assessed the losses of his army as killed and captured - up to 60 thousand people. (This part of Vlasov's testimony is of an exculpatory nature. He was clearly inflating himself, making it clear that everything that happened was the result of the activities of others. - V.K.) ... According to the testimony of Lieutenant General Vlasov, the plan for the military release of Leningrad remains in force ... The implementation of the plan depends on how much the divisions of the Volkhov and Leningrad fronts will rest, as well as on the arrival of reinforcements. With the available forces, the Volkhov and Leningrad fronts are not capable of any offensive actions in the direction of Leningrad. These forces are enough to hold the Volkhov front and the front between Kirishi and Lake Ladoga ... ... In the spring, numerous divisions were deployed to the south, and they stopped paying attention to the northern fronts. The Volkhov front did not receive any more reinforcements ... ... in the central zone Zhukov can once again go on a large offensive from Moscow, he has enough reserves ... "As you can see, the information given by Vlasov is, of course, military secrets, many Our officers, who fell into the hands of the Nazis, did not divulge less significant military secrets even under torture, and Vlasov, being an experienced, well-informed general, at the very first interrogation with his testimony clearly seeks to win over enemies and promotes their successful military operations. detailed comments about this act of Vlasov, I will just give a note from his personal file: “February 1939 I took the military oath.” And it contains the following words: “... I take the oath and solemnly swear ... to strictly keep the military and state a secret ... If, by malicious intent, I violate this solemn oath of mine, then let the harsh punishment of the Soviet law, universal hatred and contempt of the working people befall me. "

        from the book of V. Karpov "Generalissimo"
      2. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 24 December 2013 18: 36
        +6
        Sir, I’m sorry, but you are either just a short-sighted person, or you don’t understand the topic.
        Firstly, the officers are a very valuable resource that even the Yankees exported without any embarrassment, or for example read the story of the expedition of Alexander the Great when he crossed the desert. For example, A.I. Eremenko, the former surrounded, was evacuated to Moscow, and after the hospital he commanded in December already commanded during the counteroffensive of the Soviet troops.
        And even Vika does not lie with him.
        In December, Eremenko was appointed commander of the 4th shock army, which was part of the North-Western and Kalinin fronts, and took part in the Soviet counter-offensive near Moscow. There the troops of his army achieved perhaps the best results in the winter offensive of 1942: defensive lines were broken, the enemy was thrown back 250 kilometers in a month of fighting, the cities of Andreapol and Toropets were liberated, the enemy’s Rzhev group was captured from the north and the Velikoluks group was captured from the south. January 20, during a bombing by German planes of the headquarters of the troops, Eremenko was again wounded, but refused to be sent to the rear hospital and continued to lead combat operations for another 23 days. Only on February 15 he was taken to the hospital, where he stayed until August 1942.


        Secondly, if we share the fate of the army, then there are more worthy people for this - F.A. Ershakov, S.V. Vishnevsky, M.F. Lukin who were captured near Moscow in the 41st, and after that they were in fascist concentration camps, or there are those who lay down next to their fighters - M.P. Petrov, K.I. Rakutin. I am talking about environments. By the way, thanks to them, fettered parts of the Germans, time was gained to tighten reserves to Moscow when the front collapsed during the fall of the Germans. It’s not worth saying that the story could completely change if they acted as Vlasov surrendering at a difficult moment.

        Here's an example of officers followed by soldiers who shared their hardships. And to say that "this" shared the fate of the army is an insult to all those fallen officers and political workers who fulfilled their duty to the end. This is not Hearts of Iron, where oh I made a mistake right now I will make a save load. This is not a sandbox. This is a harsh war - here they kill and do not forgive mistakes, take advantage of the enemy's mistakes.

        And Vlasov, at the first serious problem, surrendered without taking anything to save the situation. Efremov’s army tried to get out of the encirclement. Belova's cavalrymen were able to go out too. Many moved into partisans, realizing that there was no way to leave. But this one did nothing.

        And by the way, from the remnants of the 2nd shock army, not everyone turned over, otherwise which one he went and promoted for entry?
      3. mark7
        mark7 24 December 2013 20: 57
        +1
        Quote: klim44
        and what became a traitor is certainly bad

        Have you heard about General Efremov? Or about Komkor Petrovsky? Everything is too simple with you, and evacuation of the leadership was then common practice
  5. drop
    drop 24 December 2013 08: 54
    +42
    I am bitter to read such articles in "VO". My loved ones died defending the country from fascism. Father died on December 27, 1941 on the Leningrad front. Paying tribute to his merits, colleagues managed to bury his father in a separate grave at the Theological cemetery. It was December 1941. Therefore, we were raised by one mother. I had to start an independent life early. Already at the age of 19 I was a lieutenant, at the age of 24 I defended my first dissertation, then the second. He created many types of weapons and military equipment, which are adopted and protect the country now. When I was young, I walked in the Myasny Bor area along the path of retreat along the corridor of the 2nd Army. Vlasov is a traitor, a mediocre military leader and killer of our commanders and soldiers. Commissar of the 2nd Army Zuev took the groups out of the encirclement four times. He died for the fourth time, a village on the border of the Leningrad and Novgorod regions was named after him. Here is a hero. I managed to see the documents about how this traitor commanded near Moscow. During the fighting in December 1941, he was sick, lay with a fever and did not take part in the defeat of the Nazis in the area of ​​the Leningradskoe highway. The Russian people do not give in to calls to reconsider the activities of this traitor. On his hands is the blood of our compatriots and the grief of their families. I have the honor.
    1. mirag2
      mirag2 24 December 2013 11: 32
      +8
      "... Zuev ..." - these are the people that need to be called new Saints, not Nicholas II, the weak-willed.
    2. Day 11
      Day 11 24 December 2013 13: 49
      -1
      Hello, I wish Comrade Kapley! The fact that he was a mediocre commander, you got excited. From the Kiev boiler he could somehow get out. And Chiang Kai-shek generally appreciated him
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 24 December 2013 14: 11
        +5
        Quote: Den 11
        He was able to somehow get out of the Kiev boiler.

        Well, he dumped there with his nurse)))) also changed clothes and dumped in quiet)) this does not mean that he was a brilliant commander))) he wanted to do the same in the 2 army .. just did not calculate that the forester, the owner of the house he’ll hand him over ... he didn’t even shoot back ... he immediately introduced himself and went on))))
      2. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 24 December 2013 15: 32
        +9
        Quote: Den 11
        . From the Kiev boiler, he was able to somehow get out.

        Reading Stadnyuk's autobiographical book "Confessions of a Stalinist" I came across an interesting version about Vlasov:
        Alexander Saburov really was a truly people's general - a nugget who knew how to scale far and business-like far ahead. I learned a lot from meetings and conversations with him. His story alone has been haunting me for many years. It dealt with the events of 1941 on the South-Western Front, when our troops were there in enemy surroundings. More specifically, it was about General Vlasov, who at the beginning of the war commanded the 44th motorized corps. During the retreat from Lviv, Vlasov lost his corps and, leaving the first encirclement, was appointed commander of the 37 Army, which occupied the Kiev fortified area. When German troops bypassed the 37 Army, Vlasov with staff officers began to make his way east. In some kind of coppice far from the Dnieper, a small handful of NKVD workers met with its headquarters, headed by Saburov. We decided to leave the environment together. However, at night, Alexander Nikolayevich knew (I don’t remember under what circumstances) that General Vlasov selected officers at his headquarters who agreed to surrender to the Germans, and ordered the dissenters to be shot ... Saburov and his subordinates, without waiting for the morning, fled from Vlasov, and then, creating a partisan detachment, they remained to fight behind enemy lines.
        Vlasov was known to the leadership of the country, including Stalin and Tymoshenko, as a gifted military leader who received the title of “major general” before the war and was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. Shortly after leaving the encirclement, he was appointed commander of the 20 Army, defending Moscow ...
        General Saburov asserted with confidence that Vlasov had already been captured by the Germans and was “released” by the Germans before leaving the enemy rear, taking on them the obligation to contribute to the success of the Nazi troops.
        ...
        I also drew attention to the fact that in the memoirs of Colonel General L. Sandalov, who was the chief of staff of the 20 Army, it was said that Vlasov, having taken the army near Moscow, did not command it because of his illness. At the Institute of Military History, they told me what kind of “illness” it was: Vlasov drank it in black, and Sandalov performed his duties.
    3. kaktus
      kaktus 24 December 2013 19: 00
      +1
      Respect and respect! hi
  6. Humpty
    Humpty 24 December 2013 09: 02
    +8
    The Rusovobian-minded part of the Russian liberals of the Vlasov pleased. And the possessed Fuhrer did not even hide his contempt for him.
    Liberals do not despise the traitor like Hitler, praising Vlasov and oppose Russian Fauchism.
    1. Walking
      Walking 24 December 2013 20: 26
      +4
      So the liberals themselves are traitors and are trying.
  7. Ihrek
    Ihrek 24 December 2013 09: 10
    +3
    Stalin repressed many generals and missed it. And if he didn’t miss, then Stalin’s enemies would have extra food for his reproaches.
    1. avt
      avt 24 December 2013 10: 44
      +7
      Quote: Jamal
      Stalin repressed many generals and missed it.

      And this one sent soldiers on time to service the cottage of Khrushchev and Tymoshenko. The author began with a good start. good Keep it up! Do not let the bastards trash the soldiers' graves with "research" about innocence and even "heroism in the fight against totalitarianism" of Hitler's lackeys. All these Vlasov, red, skins, panwitz and smaller reptiles!
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Vadim2013
      Vadim2013 24 December 2013 13: 04
      +4
      Quirky was. Always supported the party line.
  8. pv1005
    pv1005 24 December 2013 09: 27
    +12
    The result of the activities of Stalin was that we still live despite the efforts of Gorbachev-Yeltsin and others like them.
  9. Saburo
    Saburo 24 December 2013 09: 48
    +2
    Still, Vlasova is something strikingly different from the rest of the collaborators. You can understand why he didn’t shoot himself in an environment, everyone wants to live, but why before that he refused to evacuate, saying that he didn’t want to leave his people, although an airplane flew behind him? And at the very end of the war, when it was clear that Germany had lost, Franco offered him asylum first, but again refused, saying that he would not abandon his fighters, then the Americans offered to evacuate him, but he again did not agree, because he insisted that not only him, but also all the soldiers and officers of KONR who were with him. And in the last two cases, he perfectly understood that the Soviet troops were about to seize him. But why? Somehow it does not even fit into the head.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 24 December 2013 10: 20
      +9
      He realized that he had lost and decided that a bullet from his own was better, like a punishment for his betrayal ... But he got a noose like all traitors. And many more, the loop is crying!
    2. Parabelum
      Parabelum 24 December 2013 10: 45
      +6
      In my opinion, everything is simple. He hoped that they would forgive and have mercy on him. If he had escaped, then he autocratically signed his betrayal. But he didn’t have enough spirit to shoot himself. He is not only a traitor, but also a coward.
    3. Hudo
      Hudo 24 December 2013 15: 44
      +4
      Quote: Saburo
      Franco offered him asylum at first, but again refused, saying that he would not abandon his fighters, then the Americans offered to evacuate him, but he again did not agree, because he insisted that not only him, but also all the KONR soldiers and officers who were with him be evacuated . And in the last two cases, he perfectly understood that the Soviet troops were about to seize him. But why? Somehow it does not even fit into the head.

      Everything fits. Vlasov’s henchmen simply wouldn’t let him leave alive for a simple reason - they had blood and crimes on them like a roving flea, and there was little chance but to surrender his Osh Fuhrer with rotten giblets and bargain for his life.
      1. Walking
        Walking 24 December 2013 20: 31
        +2
        Vlasov surrendered to the Americans who surrendered him and others to the Soviet Union against his will. By the way, execution is a more honorable execution than hanging, so a rope for a traitor is just not worthy of a bullet.
        1. Hudo
          Hudo 24 December 2013 21: 59
          0
          Quote: Hiking
          By the way, execution is a more honorable execution than hanging, so a rope for a traitor is just not worthy of a bullet.


          Somewhere I met for this reason an explanation of people who know. The bottom line is that when hanging, the hangman’s soul does not come out with the last breath through his mouth, but through the bottom *** and moving along this route will go into some kind of foul-smelling substance, which in turn entails a significant amount of extremely unpleasant consequences for this soul.
  10. 311ove
    311ove 24 December 2013 10: 09
    +16
    And on whom is the blood of ordinary Soviet soldiers and officers killed in battles at the hands of "ideological patriots of Vlasovites" ... Soviet people who fought for the Motherland, in the first place! For their own freedom from these ..... A lot of white officers and soldiers who did not accept Bolshevism did not take the side of Hitler, on the contrary fought in resistance in Europe ..... And then .... who took the side of the enemy - JUDAS and the TRAITOR! !!! Definitely !!!
  11. albi77
    albi77 24 December 2013 10: 16
    +11
    General Karbyshev was also a prisoner, but refused to cooperate with enemies.
    It would be better to remember about him than about the one that people betrayed in their life.
    1. andranick
      andranick 24 December 2013 10: 56
      +13
      Nowadays, the tendency is to plant and promote betrayal and cowardice, and the supremacy of one's own skin and fat layer on the gluteal muscles. Show true heroes no-no - and suddenly national pride and self-esteem wake up, people will remember that they are not trembling and have honor. On the contrary, it is necessary to smack these heroes. I will not forget and will not forgive the same E. Radzinsky when he said that "why did Matrosov rush into the embrasure, you could have called tanks, aviation" (the quote is not literal, but the meaning is accurate). Today the war is going on for the heads of the younger generation, all this heresy is being introduced to them. They are trying to make the electorate and cattle. For my part, I do everything so that my sons have a broader view of the world, know how to filter the informational influence acting on them, remember and honor the memory of their ancestors and be proud of their homeland.
      1. smile
        smile 24 December 2013 15: 05
        +4
        andranick
        I do not understand why you are writing "Today there is such a tendency - to plant and promote betrayal and cowardice"?
        You didn’t notice that the enemies of the current government and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad are trying to raise this traitor to the shield. This is not the same thing. that the Russian Orthodox Church. None of the normal people praises him - only part of the swamp opposition.
        1. andranick
          andranick 24 December 2013 16: 07
          0
          smile
          Do not be an idealist, the world is not black and white. I am deeply violet at the enemies of the current government, as well as at its friends. The same applies to the Russian Orthodox Church, and even more so to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
          Regardless of the past / present / future government and its enemies / friends, Russia will always be a bone in the throat of the whole world. It has not been possible to defeat Russia by force for a long time, the first compilation of the strategy of victory over Russia was made by Bismarck, after the Second World War it was expanded and implemented almost completely, now they are "squeezing out". Remember about the substitution of moral values, false ideals, etc.? And if you think that this struggle is over and is not being waged, you are blind. There is a battle of civilizations. And within the framework of this battle, cruelty is implanted from an early age (cartoon Sailor Moon, for example), the primordial principles on which, like on the pillars, the Russian civilization stands, are not allowed into the brains of the young generation, and in exchange for them self-centeredness and fear for their own skin are implanted ideals of consumption, etc. This is what I am about.
          But the authorities and the Russian Orthodox Church have nothing to do with what you mean. They are given to us so that we can collect taxes and baptismal taxes. And the rest - they are not at work, and therefore no claims to them.
          1. smile
            smile 24 December 2013 16: 24
            +5
            andranick
            Yeah, quite a while my broken and cynical carcass was not called an idealist ... :)))

            Sorry, but I am forced to return a reproach of naivety to you .... I understand that you want to speak out and do not blame this - on the contrary, it is very good ... but I do not understand why you are turning to me? :)))
            Did I say anything else? Except that only the blind man does not see the change in the coverage of our history in the media - less and less rubbish there like pork land, although in the nineties they were the only ones like them ... and only the blind man does not see that whatever we had the Russian Orthodox Church (and there are people there, just people and they are not holy), but the run-in to the Russian Orthodox Church mainly comes from those who erode the foundations of our society, the Russian mentality and whose goal is the destruction of Russia as a state .... Precisely therefore, I am loyal to the Russian Orthodox Church - and you should have ...
            1. andranick
              andranick 24 December 2013 16: 41
              -1
              Quote: smile
              but I don’t understand why you are contacting me? :)))

              I explained to you my position, since you did not understand ...
              Quote: smile
              ... why are you writing "Nowadays there is such a tendency - to plant and promote betrayal and cowardice"?
              hi
              Quote: smile
              . That is why I am loyal to the Russian Orthodox Church - and you should have ...
              But I don’t need to indicate whether loyally or not it refers to the Russian Orthodox Church. I'll figure it out myself. stop
              1. smile
                smile 24 December 2013 16: 57
                +1
                andranick
                I understand you - everything is bad, everything is bad. They are squeezing us.

                I didn’t tell you anything, do not be angry, please, without reason. Think first, and then rush to argue.

                As for the Russian Orthodox Church, I’m an absolutely atheist-minded person, and at the same time I believe that the Russian Orthodox Church is doing a good thing for Russia, consolidating society and influencing its morality to some extent. and protecting those moral values ​​whose loss you care about. No matter what.
                1. andranick
                  andranick 24 December 2013 19: 29
                  0
                  Calm down already! Yes, I started a dispute with myself :) And therefore I stop it. There is a discussion of Vlasov’s betrayal and betrayal in general.
                  1. smile
                    smile 24 December 2013 19: 54
                    0
                    andranick
                    I am calm, like a brick, but slightly malicious. The fact that you stop the argument with yourself - I welcome and approve in every possible way. :)))
              2. andranick
                andranick 24 December 2013 19: 20
                0
                Hmm ... I wonder who and why put a minus in this message:
                andranick RU Today, 16:41 ↑

                Negative - so at least explain what you do not agree with, or else, a bunch in the water.
        2. Pushkar
          Pushkar 24 December 2013 23: 34
          +1
          Someone Mr. Ridiger began his church career precisely in the ROCA in Estonia occupied by the Germans. He actually made the Russian Orthodox Church a branch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, combining them. He also canonized Nicholas II and tried to rehabilitate Vlasov. So, not so much the Russian Orthodox Church is white and fluffy and very useful.
        3. Shadowcat
          Shadowcat 25 December 2013 01: 19
          0
          There is a proposal for a request for Vlasov ROCOR to offer such a rewrite of the Bible. (Believers forgive me, but ...) But what? Indeed, judging by logic, Judas Iscariot also received his sight and surrendered Christ.
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 25 December 2013 01: 28
            +1
            Quote: ShadowCat
            There is a proposal for a request for Vlasov ROCOR to offer such a rewrite of the Bible. (Believers forgive me, but ...) But what? Indeed, judging by logic, Judas Iscariot also received his sight and surrendered Christ.


            Stupidity!
  12. Same lech
    Same lech 24 December 2013 10: 25
    +20
    Denikin had been an opponent of the SOVIET AUTHORITY all his life — however, he did not betray the Russian people and did not go to serve Hitler, and VLASOV was a Soviet communist general and betrayed his people — what metamorphoses of that time were.
  13. Dimkapvo
    Dimkapvo 24 December 2013 10: 29
    +7
    Cowardly litter, insignificance with a down face. He had no goals, except to extend his miserable existence longer and farther, and in order to be in favor with the owners he had to develop vigorous activity. Ordinary crap, a coward and a traitor.
  14. sdv68
    sdv68 24 December 2013 10: 37
    +7
    One word - TRAITOR. And since almost immediately after the capture he sided with the Fritz, that is, there is a high probability that the 2UA tragedy is man-made. And created by the hands of that same Vlasov.
    1. Not hearing
      Not hearing 24 December 2013 11: 07
      +5
      Quote: sdv68
      that the tragedy of 2UA is man-made. And created by the hands of that same Vlasov.

      The commander of the Volkhov operational group, Lieutenant General M.S. Khozin, did not comply with the Stavka directive (dated May 21) on the withdrawal of army troops. As a result, the 2nd shock army was surrounded, and Khozin himself was dismissed on June 6 with the wording:
      For failure to comply with the order of the Headquarters on the timely and quick withdrawal of troops of the 2nd shock army, for paper-bureaucratic methods of command and control, for separation from the troops, as a result of which the enemy cut the communications of the 2nd shock army and the latter was put in an extremely difficult situation.
  15. Black
    Black 24 December 2013 11: 13
    +13
    “The Soviet regime did not offend me ...” Vlasov wrote in an “Open Letter” published by the Russian-language German newspaper Zarya on March 3, 1943. - I - the son of a peasant, was born in the Nizhny Novgorod province, studied pennies, achieved higher education. I accepted the people's revolution, joined the ranks of the Red Army to fight for land for the peasants, for a better life for the worker, for a brighter future for the Russian people. Since then, my life has been inextricably linked with the life of the Red Army ... "
    And where is the "ideological fighter" ????
    We often dig too deeply, faced with betrayal ... It is difficult for a normal person, a patriot, to imagine how this is possible. In fact it is simple cowardice and cowardice.
  16. Lelek
    Lelek 24 December 2013 11: 58
    +5
    Abomination has always rested on betrayal, lies, greed and indifference. All these qualities are fully inherent in Vlasov and those who are trying to whitewash him. negative
  17. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 24 December 2013 12: 01
    +5
    It’s strange that we have to talk about this at all, no matter how good a person is, moving grandmothers across the road, feeding homeless animals, making park benches or something else if he was captured, and then also went over to the enemy’s side, and then he began to incite others to it, he only deserved the hangers without any talk at all, I don’t understand why the NKVD and the NKGB after the ceremony stood on ceremony with a bullet in the back of the head and a cattle cemetery, because by their actions these people somehow contributed to the enemy whether they fought directly with units of the Red Army or just brought cartridges. Although the fighting qualities of the traitors were very doubtful.
  18. Taoist
    Taoist 24 December 2013 12: 08
    +6
    All religions of the world condemn the "perjurer".
    If a person voluntarily and consciously took an oath to defend "not sparing blood and his life" and then not just broke the oath (for example, by evading the call) but went to cooperate with the enemy, then in any case, he is Judas and an oathbreaker. And it does not matter at all what considerations he was guided by.

    It is surprising that some "church hierarchs" find justification for one of the deadly sins.
    1. smile
      smile 24 December 2013 15: 10
      +7
      Taoist
      So this is not our ROC. This is the ROCOR — foreign — in their anti-communism, they have collaborated since the twenties with all the enemies of Russia and the Russians they could find. They broke with the Russian Orthodox Church in about the second half of the twenties, when the Russian Orthodox Church supported the Soviet Government.
      Apparently, today the ROCOR has not changed anything - it is still hostile to Russia, out of habit. so to speak...:)))
      1. Taoist
        Taoist 24 December 2013 17: 54
        +2
        I understand this perfectly well, but in this case their hatred pushes them to violate one of the dogmas of the faith (after all, they have not ceased to be Orthodox Christians?) - i.e. justifying "perjury"
        1. smile
          smile 24 December 2013 18: 35
          +3
          Taoist
          I agree here +, but the trouble is that religious hierarchs of all religions, without exception, have been primarily political figures for centuries ... look at the history of mankind - from shamans in primitive society to the highest religious hierarchs of all religions without exception, all of them before all you need power .... And the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad by all means. hostile to the USSR. and then Russia has always been used for political purposes, and its hierarchs. accordingly, even against the background of the others they differed not for the better ...
  19. damirez
    damirez 24 December 2013 12: 29
    +5
    traitor! that says it all!
  20. Hort
    Hort 24 December 2013 12: 37
    +4
    You can, of course, have a grudge against the authorities that repressed relatives or "dispossessed" there, etc., but because of this, go to cooperate with the enemy who ravages your land and kills your fellow citizens - this is a betrayal that cannot be justified by anything ... It is banal - the regime and power are changing, but the land on which your ancestors lived and in which they lie remains.
  21. Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 24 December 2013 13: 09
    +3
    Quote: Parabelum
    He hoped that they would forgive and have mercy on him.

    Fantasy. And .V. Stalin never forgave his traitors. He is a traitor and a traitor.
  22. alex_valent
    alex_valent 24 December 2013 13: 25
    +3
    Yes, he is a traitor, but if not captured he would now write a memoir of some kind, expose, criticize. Well, the rotten nature crawled out. It's bad that many such "heroes" are hiding under uniforms and beautiful words.
  23. pensioner
    pensioner 24 December 2013 13: 31
    +5
    Thanks to the author, he raised a relevant topic. Now the third wave of whitewashing of traitors has begun (according to my calculations ...). If the first two were of a pronounced anti-Soviet character and were carried out rather aggressively, now they are more subtle. They apply such a kind of scientific approach to the topic. Thus, gradually introducing into consciousness the idea that there are no forbidden topics, that all historical phenomena, to which the history of Vlasov's betrayal certainly belongs, are multifaceted in their essence, that semitones are possible, etc. And this is all against the background of a general degradation of the educational level in the country. Thus, I conclude that these actions are targeted at the younger generation, already accustomed to "think freely." And with counter-propaganda somehow not very ...
    1. Raphael_83
      Raphael_83 24 December 2013 17: 50
      +3
      On the topic of counter-propaganda:
      - Have you ever been engaged in counter-propaganda? Ah, Ivan?
      - Counterpropaganda? This is when the Germans shout into a megaphone: "Ryssky partisan, surrender!" And he answered from the forest: "The Russians do not surrender, fascist muzzle!" And a line from the vending machine, so that it doesn't interfere with cracking vodka. So?
      - About. - I nodded.
      - No, I didn’t. What? Judging by your cunning face, I’m up to something. But keep in mind that I’m not going to scream at the matugalnik.
      - Look, there are letters from the dead invaders. What will you do with them? Moreover, you don’t understand a belmez. To store is dangerous, they do not represent special value, unless you are going to throw your agent to them. To develop a legend, a stroke of the legend - they will go.
      - Like what? To the stove!
      - Come on, write a letter and send it to the relatives and friends of the deceased.
      - To America?
      - Aha?
      “Have you eaten your ear, Colonel?” What for?
      - Amerikosy - not Russian. They will immediately run to the newspapers. And we express our deepest condolences there that we are not enemies of the American people, but since your loved one came to kill us, we killed him. We apologize, and also ask to notify other people so that they do not send their sons to Russia, we will kill them too. Then the press will develop this theme in the States themselves. They love their star-striped flag there, but they don’t like it when it covers the coffins of soldiers.
      - Colonel - you're crazy! - notes of admiration flickered in Ivan's voice - you had to go to counterintelligence, we lost such a master for dusting our brains. Very elegant, cynical. And all in moderation. Of course, condolences - maybe this is superfluous, but it should work. We must also think about leaflets ...
      (Vyacheslav Mironov "We are not slaves"). From SW. hi
  24. hohryakov066
    hohryakov066 24 December 2013 13: 58
    +6
    Traitor - he is a traitor in Africa. From what motives he would not proceed. The Nazis used traitors, but also did not have respect for them. In any normal person, betrayal should cause a feeling of loathing! Whatever excuses the traitor used.
  25. Day 11
    Day 11 24 December 2013 14: 02
    0
    Guys, how do you feel about the activities of Marshal Kulik? Was Stalin right? And Rybalchenko, Kirillov, Ponedelin, ...?
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 24 December 2013 14: 07
      +2
      Quote: Den 11
      Guys, how do you feel about the activities of Marshal Kulik?

      Hi Chef, you probably know how he left Belarus, having dressed in civilian clothes, that is, in clothes ..... the 41 year war immediately showed that there is a difference between civil and this war .....
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 24 December 2013 14: 13
        +1
        Hi buddy! I’m talking about the same thing. It’s necessary that the people also enlighten themselves and not throw themselves with slogans only. I don’t record myself in authorities, but at least I’m interested
  26. Day 11
    Day 11 24 December 2013 14: 06
    +2
    And to this (Muzychenko) what is your attitude?
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 24 December 2013 14: 30
      +5
      Quote: Den 11
      And to this (Muzychenko) what is your attitude?

      surrendered the entire army in Ukraine, it seems 22 and 4 armies ... by the way in the pictures, he went for a long time in his general uniform)))))) Stalin left one alive and the other shot in 1950 .......
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 24 December 2013 14: 39
        +2
        By the way, as far as I remember, about 20 marshals and generals went under the ax!
        1. smersh70
          smersh70 24 December 2013 14: 48
          +5
          Quote: Den 11
          I remember, about 20 marshals and generals went under the ax!

          and he did it right .... before the war he gave them all these general and marshal ranks in advance ..... but when he saw that they couldn’t do it, they paid off their heads ...... he shot selectively by the way .. I didn’t touch Lukin .... but Novikov was shot to hell ..... although Lukin was held captive and they even say he offered his help to the Germans ... but Novikov went through the whole war, but broke down on trophies ..... all the same, in these it’s dark, if you looked at the cream of the eye all these investigative matters, a lot would have cleared up))))
          I just don’t understand why they had so much time and opportunity at hand, because they were guarded as commanding officers, whole regiments and battalions, they couldn’t shoot themselves at least ... or somehow topple down .. or stay and partisan .... ...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 24 December 2013 15: 10
            +5
            Yes, HZ. I also heard about Lukin, under CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES I was ready to cooperate. But the question diverged. Weak people, there is no rod. Bullet in the temple --- and relatives have no shame, indelible. General Efremov for some reason was frightened and personally for me he is the standard of military valor!
    2. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 24 December 2013 15: 41
      +1
      Quote: Den 11
      And to this (Muzychenko) what is your attitude?

      At the beginning of World War II, the 6-I army as part of the South-Western Front participated in border battles. In August 1941, during the Battle of Uman, the 6 I Army was encircled.
      6 August 1941 years, Lieutenant General I.N. Muzychenko was seriously wounded in his left leg and captured. He lay in German hospitals in Rivne, Vladimir-Volynsky. After recovery, he was taken to Germany to the Hammelburg prison camp. Here the Germans repeatedly suggested that he go to their service or at least participate in anti-Soviet propaganda. Muzychenko rejected all these proposals. In punishment, he was transferred to a prison in Weissenburg fortress with a very difficult regime. 29 April 1945 year Muzychenko was liberated by American troops from the camp of Mossburg.
      From May to December of the 1945 year, he was tested at the Soviet military mission for repatriation in Paris and at the NKVD in Moscow. December 31 1945 of the year was restored in the cadres of the Soviet army. In April 1947 he graduated from the Higher Academic Courses at the Military Academy of the General Staff, then for more than six months he was at the disposal of the personnel department of the Ground Forces. He was offered a number of command or staff positions in the troops or educational institutions, but Muzychenko refused, citing the fact that his health was very much undermined by the cruel regime of the fascist camps. In this regard, 8 October 1947 year, he was fired. He lived in Moscow, was treated a lot, periodically took part in the work of the military scientific society at the Central House of the Soviet Army. General Muzychenko died on December 8 of the 1970 of the year in Moscow. He was awarded the orders: Lenin (1946 g), 4 Red Banner (1938, 1940, 1946, 1957 years), as well as many medals.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 24 December 2013 15: 46
        +1
        Believe me, it’s not so simple with this person either. What you wrote is an official. I got out of it (or maybe double). Smersh correctly said, they shot selectively.
        1. Walking
          Walking 24 December 2013 20: 43
          0
          Do you have something to say or is this just your opinion?
          Regarding Ponedelin and Kirilov, there are photos taken by the Germans where they talk with the Germans and photos where they have lunch that were used for propaganda. That’s why they probably weren’t forgiven and were shot in 1950.
        2. alone
          alone 24 December 2013 23: 19
          +1
          The only captive general who was credible was the commander of the 5th Army, General Potapov. After the war he was accepted by Stalin and returned to the army almost without verification, preserving his epaulettes and awards. Thanks to the actions of the 5th army, the barbaross plan in the Kiev direction was disrupted. and only because of the% Guderian had to turn to Kiev. Stalin remembered this. Do we remember this?
  27. Same lech
    Same lech 24 December 2013 14: 13
    +4
    BAD I treat him — the tragedy of our army on the Kerch peninsula of his fault.
    A trail of bad deeds still stretches behind him.
    As a general, he is a complete zero.
  28. mithridate
    mithridate 24 December 2013 15: 30
    +3
    the ideological war continues. The fifth column on gayropean money with might and main squeals about the atrocities of the Stalinist regime and such "fighters"
  29. Day 11
    Day 11 24 December 2013 15: 34
    +3
    That’s what his chatter has led. People want to live (somewhere I understand them). But not at the same price! On the photo officer of the ROA writes volunteers from among the Red Army
  30. RUSS
    RUSS 24 December 2013 15: 48
    +3
    If Vlasov immediately went to the Nazis in the 41st, then there could have been some discussion about his patriotism, honor and conscience. But it turns out that he was captured in the 42nd, and in order to save his own skin he fell into traitors, the brainwashing and the failures of the Red Army might have worked, but this does not justify pure betrayal as it is.
  31. alex_valent
    alex_valent 24 December 2013 16: 26
    +4
    But there are people who justify him. There is such Rezun. Probably one berry swamp. Tell who your idol is and you can see who you are.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 December 2013 16: 33
      +2
      I disagree with you, they are berries from different swamps. Why is he still alive? Hates?
      1. alex_valent
        alex_valent 24 December 2013 16: 43
        0
        Is this life? In my opinion, existence is more suitable.
      2. studentmati
        studentmati 25 December 2013 00: 18
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Why is he dosihpor alive? Doesn't lead?


        It leads of course ... The cheap thing is over - by definition.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 25 December 2013 00: 31
          +2
          Wow Sasha! You’re right --- he’s cheap! I wanted to live, dog, --- Comrade Stalin did everything right !!!
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 25 December 2013 00: 40
            +1
            Quote: Den 11
            Wow Sasha! You’re right --- he’s cheap! I wanted to live, dog, --- Comrade Stalin did everything right !!!


            Hi Denis! Everything is very transparent!
        2. Day 11
          Day 11 25 December 2013 01: 11
          +1
          Incorrectly unsubscribed --- meant Vlasov
          1. studentmati
            studentmati 25 December 2013 01: 19
            +1
            Quote: Den 11
            Incorrectly unsubscribed --- meant Vlasov


            I understand you! good
          2. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  32. pRofF
    pRofF 24 December 2013 16: 40
    -3
    An ambiguous personality. Let me explain what its ambiguity is. Of course, he is a traitor, and he is for me. It cannot be justified - it is a slap in the face to all those who shed blood on the fields of War or burned down in the camps. The reason for his betrayal is ambiguous. Those. I would not say that he cooperated solely out of a desire to save his life. The fact is that several times I came across - in various books (for example, Bushkov - "The Red Monarch") that Vlasov and part of his generals are the surviving remnants of Tukhachevsky's conspiracy. And when he was captured, it was logical for himself and considered to continue the unfinished business. Moreover, it was not Hitler who went to meet him - he was just against it. The creation of the ROA was supported by the German generals and some members of the SS. At the end of 1944, after the Staufenberg conspiracy, the Fuehrer gave the order to disarm the "eastern battalions" (as the Germans called the ROA formations), but his order was not carried out - which suggests that the German generals had some interests of their own with Vlasov. And another important point - Vlasov and Co., after they fell into the hands of our organs, were kept in the fortress for about a year. They conducted interrogations. And after their execution at 46, after a while a decree was issued on "strengthening measures to combat the Trotskyist underground." So we think - what Vlasov and his people knew, and what were their true reasons for betrayal.
    Of course, I understand that it gives away some cheap conspiracy theories, but the facts are a stubborn thing. There was such a supply. Like the annual imprisonment - when all the traitors were put to the wall without much discussion.
    Ps I took the information, as I said, from Bushkov. At the end of his book, links to his sources are given, you can check.
    1. pRofF
      pRofF 25 December 2013 00: 04
      0
      If "minus", then I would like to know why. So please, before expressing your "fairy" - indicate the reason. And it turns out like in Krylov's fable - "You are to blame for the fact that I want to eat."
  33. alex_valent
    alex_valent 24 December 2013 16: 47
    +2
    Tries, puffs, writes little books. I’m here, I'm important, I’ve not only escaped and betrayed, but I’m ideological I. And the whole idea is to eat my shit ...
  34. alex_valent
    alex_valent 24 December 2013 16: 52
    +3
    Any traitor wants to justify himself even in his own eyes. He feels the rottenness of his act, but seeks justification. But there are no excuses for the traitors of the HOMELAND.
  35. alex_valent
    alex_valent 24 December 2013 16: 53
    0
    repeat a little messy, sorry boiled up
  36. alex20081308
    alex20081308 24 December 2013 17: 14
    -4
    I met such a version. Vlasov deliberately went over to the Nazis, on the instructions of Stalin, with the goal of organizing = fifth column =. For the critical situation, the 42-year version seems very believable. And I think it was. It was just that Stalin could not predict the course of events. Well, and then, he just became superfluous.
    1. d.gksueyjd
      d.gksueyjd 24 December 2013 23: 23
      +2
      The Central Committee of the CPSU specially nominated Gorbachev for the post of Secretary General, so that he would receive the Nobel Prize from the leaders of the USSR. This version is no worse than yours !!!
      Traitor, has no ranks and awards, but only the contempt of his people!
  37. tank64rus
    tank64rus 24 December 2013 18: 05
    +6
    I recommend reading the book "At XNUMX pm Your Excellency." It is difficult to find it now, the modern "Vlasovites" do not like it, but it is possible. There are many facts from the life of this "fighter against the regime." My father was filthy at the execution, he was dying.
    1. Sour
      Sour 24 December 2013 18: 10
      0
      Quote: tank64rus
      It is difficult to find it now, the modern "Vlasovites" do not like it, but it is possible.

      http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/vasilyev_an1/index.html
  38. Sour
    Sour 24 December 2013 18: 08
    +7
    Vlasov and Vlasovites are traitors. Anyone who stood on a par with the enemy and raised his hand to his compatriots is a traitor. There can be no ideological justification. You must always be a patriot of your country, especially in difficult times, regardless of whether you like power or not.
  39. Sour
    Sour 24 December 2013 18: 53
    +2
    In 1945, the Vlasovites spread a rumor in the camps that the Germans were shooting prisoners of war when retreating, and therefore it was necessary to enroll in the ROA, this is the only chance to save lives. The rumors were not groundless, in Pomerania, the SS completely destroyed one camp, according to some sources, up to 11 thousand prisoners, mostly Soviet. But even under these conditions, only a few were recorded in the ROA. Basically, the ROA was replenished at the expense of the former policemen, withdrawn during the retreat by the Germans. By April 1945, the number of ROA reached 135 thousand. Rumors about allegedly "millions of Russians who fought against Hitler" are complete nonsense.
    Back in the 50s, émigré publicists took the number of all formations from the citizens of the USSR and put them together. But this is double or even triple accounting, because the same people are counted there 2-3 times. For example, the soldiers of the East Turkic SS division were all earlier in the Turkestan legion, and the soldiers of the SS "Idel-Ural" division were all earlier in the Volga-Tatar legion. All the soldiers of the Kalmyk corps later ended up in the ROA and they were also counted 2 times. Half of the 135-thousandth ROA model of 1945 served as policemen in the occupied territory. Only from Ukraine did the Germans withdraw 11 police battalions, then they all ended up in the ROA, from which the 2nd ROA division was formed. They were also counted 2 times.
    In reality, according to objective estimates, 650-750 thousand citizens of the USSR served Hitler, of which about a third were Baltic. Only a few people (110 thousand) passed through the Latvian Legion than through the entire Vlasov army.
  40. kaktus
    kaktus 24 December 2013 19: 11
    +4
    And forever and ever
    a coward, a traitor always despise
    the enemy is the enemy, and war is still war
    and the dungeon is dark, and freedom is one,
    and always trust in her.
    Time has not erased these understandings -
    tear off the upper layer from it -
    and steaming blood from the throat
    eternal feelings gush on us.
    Now, forever, forever and ever, antiquity,
    and price is price, and wine is wine,
    and it’s always good if honor is saved,
    if the other's back is securely covered ...
    V.S.V
  41. mark7
    mark7 24 December 2013 20: 45
    +1
    Quote: smile
    - about the Russian Orthodox Church

    Any church is under the existing authority, and today is no exception, a special conversation about them
  42. Megatron
    Megatron 25 December 2013 00: 20
    +2
    Only yesterday I was on Nevsky Piglet, then I read the veteran’s memoirs about the battles near Myasniy Bor, he clearly states that Vlasov went to cooperate with the Germans from the very first moment when he gave up.
    And thanks to him, the Germans also learned about the insignificance of the remaining fighters, and about the weakness of their defense and the inability to make a powerful breakthrough. Taking advantage of this, the Germans transferred many fresh units to Stalingrad.
  43. Day 11
    Day 11 25 December 2013 00: 44
    0
    In your understanding, I’m such and such Natsik --- You are absolutely my friends wrong! Yes, I respect them as valiant soldiers and no more. And we have something to learn from them! Believe me, I know
  44. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 25 December 2013 05: 51
    +2
    Then Admiral Oktyabrsky was mentioned, but what is it, so small? And let us remember Peter I (well, the very one whom the descendants of the Great were called out), who left the troops under Narva. Let's not call him Peter the Great: he is bad! He left the troops, fled instead from the front! Let us not understand why all this was done, what would happen to Russia otherwise - just condemn for a real fact: I ran away and not shot myself! And you can’t wash a black dog about Vlasov! Remember how they described the behavior of Vlasov as the Germans, after putting in captive, and in Moscow, after he was returned back A: It was the behavior of a cowardly man ready even for the sake of miserable existence to betray and sell everything and everyone.
  45. kelevra
    kelevra 26 December 2013 23: 29
    +1
    My grandfather fought in the 2nd Shock Vlasov. When they were surrounded, the grandfather left with his division, 10 thousand people, a couple of days later there were only about 200 people. The rest died. They surrendered to the Germans together with Vlasov: his headquarters, his close associates, those who guarded him, were a couple of battalions. The rest died under such conditions that they couldn’t believe that this was possible. My grandfather got to the hospital with several injuries, barely saved! Then the Soviet camp and rehabilitation, reached the borders of the USSR. Was a lieutenant and always raised children as patriots to the core and bones! There are many who say that if he served in the 2nd Shock, it means Vlasovets, a traitor! This cliché, for the demented, from the entire 150 thousandth army, surrendered voluntarily and began to work for the enemy, only about 1 thousand! So why bother everyone with dirt! Zhukov drove millions to slaughter and did not hide that he drove so many soldiers into the enemy’s forehead. Knowing that they would die, he simply explained, This is a war and without losses But nowhere, no one said that he was a butcher and slow-witted, if he could not save Anit his soldiers! He is a hero for everyone! But he did the troubles no less than Stalin! Therefore, it’s necessary not only to judge something by article, but to be interested, to study other more detailed information!
    1. Colonel
      Colonel 28 December 2013 14: 52
      +1
      You "-", not for your grandfather, but for calling Zhukov a butcher and slow-witted. Recommend you
      study other more detailed information!
      but not on Wikipedia.
      1. d.gksueyjd
        d.gksueyjd 28 December 2013 21: 19
        0
        "for calling Zhukov a butcher and slow-witted." Zhukov is not slow-witted, but the "butcher" he was nicknamed SOLDIERS advancing under his leadership. I personally heard it in the memoirs of the front-line soldiers.
        1. Colonel
          Colonel 28 December 2013 23: 08
          +1
          It is difficult to condemn the soldiers whom Zhukov's order raised to attack. But you and I have the opportunity to compare and draw conclusions. Ask why von Leeb did not take Leningrad when Voroshilov, resigned to the loss of the city, ordered the Baltic Fleet ships and all enterprises to be prepared for the explosion. Why the Typhoon "stalled". And further, on the rise. And if you are sincere with yourself, you will agree that not a butcher, but a talented commander, although not without problems.
          1. d.gksueyjd
            d.gksueyjd 28 December 2013 23: 30
            0
            As a military officer I explain, it is possible to execute an order in at least 2 ways: 1 widely used - at any cost (by the blood of soldiers and officers) and 2 reasonable. Unfortunately, in CA, the army of the Russian Federation and even tsarist Russia, 1 method is more often used. Under the threat of execution, Marshal Zhukov demanded the execution of his orders, this does not detract from his fighting qualities, like Marshal of Victory, but there could have been much fewer victims. Although we had commanders who laid hundreds of thousands of soldiers, not achieving victory (for example, Mius Front)
            1. Colonel
              Colonel 29 December 2013 09: 54
              0
              Well, since you are a military man, you should know that sometimes there is no alternative to the execution of the order that you have proposed. Stalin went further than Zhukov - issued order No. 227. He was probably unreasonable.