Military Review

Jagdpanzer 38D tank destroyer

56
September 26, 1944 the main command of the Wehrmacht ground forces decided to increase the production of fighters tanks Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer. The car had good combat characteristics, and, most importantly, it was cheaper than German-made tanks and self-propelled guns. And by this time, the Reich industry was in short supply of materials, machine tools, equipment and experienced personnel necessary for the production of tanks. Strong bombing of industrial enterprises also contributed to this. aviation allies. As a result, the production of armored vehicles began to fall, and losses at the fronts increased.


Since the factories of the Skoda and VMM companies, where the production of “Hetzer” was carried out, could not cope with the program launched by them, they decided to attract Alkett to the production of these machines. The last was commissioned to reach the level of production by the end of the year, 1000 Jagdpanzer 38 per month.

However, a few days later, the situation changed - as mentioned above, the Tank Development Commission decided to reduce the number of tank chassis produced: only Hetzer, Panther and Royal Tiger and vehicles based on them remained in production.

October 19 1944 Tank Armaments Test Division (WaPruf 6), after reviewing the materials transferred to it, reported that the Jagdpanzer 38 tank destroyer was poorly adapted for mass production at German enterprises in terms of production.

As a result, in a short time, the engineers of VMM and Alkett reworked the Hetzer design, adapting it for mass production and making a number of changes to the design. The Ausfuehrung “Reich”, as this car was originally named, received a new, somewhat widened and elongated armored case with vertical sheets in the lower part (they were mounted with the Hetzer inward). As a power plant, the use of a Tatra diesel engine rated at 220 l was used. with. with a five-speed gearbox, AK 5 — 80, as well as new enhanced side gears, steering and suspension. The general management of the development of this machine was carried out by the chief engineer of Alkett Michels.

20 November 1944 was recorded in the magazine of the Artillery Inspector-General of the Ground Forces Command that the development of the chassis of the new self-propelled unit, called Jagdpanzer 38 D (D - Deutschland), was completed, and in the near future the detailed development of the cutting and installation of weapons would begin. 23 January 1945, introducing the project Jagdpanzer 38 D at a meeting of the "Commission for the Development of Tanks" engineer Michels reported the following details.

Use on the new chassis of the Tatra V-12 diesel engine of air cooling with 220 horsepower at 2000 rpm, allowed to increase the mobility of the machine and raise its speed compared to the "Hetzer". In addition, diesel, which was more economical than gasoline engines, provided a much longer power reserve — with fuel consumption of 76 liters per 100 kilometers of fuel tank capacity in 390 liters, it should be enough for 500 kilometers when driving on highways and 300 kilometers on rough terrain.

The design of the hull and chassis allowed, without any changes in the future, to replace the 350-mm tracks, which were used in the project, with new ones broadened to 460 mm.

The estimated mass of the machine, which had frontal armor in 60 mm and armed with 75-mm cannon 39 Cancer L / 48 with ammunition in 62 shot, was 16,7 tons. In addition, the company Alkett designed for suspension Jagdpanzer 38 D new reinforced vertical coil springs, which were supposed to be used in the future instead of horizontal springs. This measure, which did not require major changes in the design of the machine, made it possible to increase its mass to 20 tons. In conclusion, the engineer Michels said that the Jagdpanzer 38 D project "is the best for mass production."

In addition to the 39 Cancer L / 48 cannon, it was supposed to arm the Jagdpanzer 38 D 75-mm Cannon 42 L / 70 Cancer (in this case the weight was about 500 — 600 kg heavier than the base version) and the Sturmhaubitze 105 mm-mm howitzer Sturmhaubitze 42 heavier than the base version) and the 2-mm gun of the Sturmhaubitze XNUMX heavier than the basic version)

Michels also said that in addition to the tank destroyer based on the Jagdpanzer 38 D, a whole family of combat vehicles is being designed:
- reconnaissance tank with 20-mm cannon in the turret;
- reconnaissance tank with an X / NUMX-mm L / 75 cannon in the open wheelhouse;
- machine with the installation of 120-mm mortar;
- Armored personnel carrier for the transport of infantry;
- repair and evacuation tank Bergepanzer 38D;
- anti-aircraft tank with two 30-mm guns in the installation Kugelbliz.


The Jagdpanzer 38 D project with the 20-mm 151 MS guns mounted under the shield shield



tank destroyer project Jagdpanzer 38 D and war machines on its base: Jagdpanzer 38 D with 75-mm cannon Cancer 42 L / 70 (top), a reconnaissance tank with 75-mm gun AK 7 In 84 L / 48 in an open cockpit (center ), and a reconnaissance tank with an 20-mm cannon and a machine gun in the turret from the Sd. Kfz. 234 / 1 (below)


Some sources mention a design on the Jagdpanzer 38 D chassis of a tank with an 75-mm cannon in the Pz.IV turret, but nothing is said in the minutes of the meeting of the “commission for the development of tanks”. In addition to the above options, the document mentions only that two more versions of machines based on the Jagdpanzer 38 D are being developed, but “no additional information was provided on them”.

For the manufacture of the above military vehicles based on the Jagdpanzer 38 D was supposed to use a slightly longer body of the self-propelled gun with a decrease in the thickness of the frontal hull plate to 30 mm. Considering that the mass was reduced compared to the base tank destroyer, the Tatra 103 V-12 diesel engine with 207 L power should have been used for installation on the extended chassis. with. at 2250 rpm, but with the same AK 5-80 gearbox. It was assumed that the speed of reconnaissance tanks will be approximately 52 km / h.

According to the general inspector of tank forces, of the above-mentioned machines, first of all it was necessary to begin production of reconnaissance tanks, moreover in the ratio of 1 to 1. This was argued by the fact that using an open turret with an 20-mm cannon will allow better observation of the battlefield, and vehicles with 75-mm cannons can cover reconnaissance by fire. In addition, the inspector general suggested that the option of installing a MG 20-mm MG 151 cannon on a reconnaissance tank should be considered, if this can be done without major chassis alterations. However, the primary task remained the organization of mass production of the tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 D. It was only after this that it was possible to talk about organizing the production of vehicles based on it.

Already in January 1945, the company Alkett signed a contract for the manufacture of two prototypes Jagdpanzer 38 D. At the same time, the firm had to deliver the first five production machines in March, and by December 1945 had to reach the release of self-propelled 800 vehicles a month. Vomag was supposed to collect the first Jagdpanzer 38 D sample for July 5, and by December produce monthly 300 units. Following Vomag, M1AG was connected to the manufacture of a new tank destroyer. In February, some adjustments were made to 1945, and the Jagdpanzer 38 D release schedule for the coming months was as follows: May - 10 machines, June - 50, July - 80 and August - 120.

14 March 1945, the inspector general of tank forces said that from July it was necessary to switch to production of the Jagdpanzer 38 D with 75-mm Cannon 42 L / 70 cancer (50 rounds of ammunition) and with frontal armor reduced to 50 mm. In the future, it was planned to switch to the installation of this tool in self-propelled guns without recoil devices (Jagdpanzer 38 D Starr). The first such machines were supposed to leave the factory floor in June 1945 of the year. It was planned that the first two samples of the Jagdpanzer 38 D Starr with 75-mm tools Cancer 42 L / 70, will be assembled by 20 on April 1945 and demonstrated to Hitler.


Prototype Waffentrager company Rheinmetall-Borsig, at the plant, captured by British troops. 1945 year


23 March 1945 representatives from Zahnradfabrik in Friedrichshafen (she was engaged in the manufacture of gearboxes for tanks) reported to the Army Arms Administration that according to information received from Alkett, the assembly of the first two Jagdpanzer 38 D is delayed due to the lack of gearboxes. Upon receipt of the latter, the machines could be completed within eight days.

And since the first samples of the Jagdpanzer 38 D were supposed to be sent to the 15 April 1945 leadership for the year, the 5 April transmissions were loaded onto trucks and sent to Berlin.

No data on whether the two prototypes of the Jagdpanzer 38 D were completed and what their fate would be could be found. No information was obtained from the representatives of Alkett, questioned after the war by representatives of the Anglo-American command. German engineers reported only that most of the company’s documents burned down during the bombing.
Author:
Articles from this series:
German tank industry to 1945 year
Infrared devices for German tanks
Modernization of the "Royal Tiger", 1945 year
Tanks "Panther" in 1945 year
"Waffentragers"
Jagdpanzer 38D tank destroyer
German anti-aircraft tanks
Small tank destroyers of Germany
E series tanks
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  1. svp67
    svp67 21 December 2013 08: 28 New
    +4
    This "hunter" destroyed a lot of our and our allied tankers. One of the striking examples of how to make a very effective weapon without spending large sums of money and it’s good that the Germans did not concentrate their forces on them ...
  2. family
    family tree 21 December 2013 09: 04 New
    +5
    Evil machine[Center]
  3. family
    family tree 21 December 2013 09: 08 New
    +5
    Czechs tried
  4. sapran
    sapran 21 December 2013 10: 05 New
    +5
    He destroyed a lot? and why? in the same way we can say "columbine" destroyed many German tanks ...
    Yes, simple, cheap, angry. Yes, the prize for the "best use of the chassis of an outdated tank" also with the proviso that the medium-light. Yes, it is rational and technological, but it is not a panacea since the crews died in packs and the Germans decided to have a chance of survival (small but a chance) ...
    1. IRBIS
      IRBIS 21 December 2013 10: 37 New
      -1
      Quote: sapran
      He destroyed a lot? and why?

      Read memoirs and memoirs of military leaders and not only ours. Routh, Guderian and Manstein have references to these machines with an indication of the ratio of losses.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 21 December 2013 11: 06 New
        +9
        Read memoirs and memoirs of military leaders and not only ours. Routh, Guderian and Manstein have references to these machines with an indication of the ratio of losses.

        memoirs with a loss ratio can only be used for kindling a stove.
        the ratio of losses by type is a multi-page study of the level of GABTU, and not some kind of memories
        1. IRBIS
          IRBIS 21 December 2013 12: 51 New
          -3
          Quote: Stas57
          This is a multi-page study of the level of GABTU,

          This is exactly what is suitable for kindling stoves. A comparative analysis of our and German documents, including personal recollections of participants in those events, shows that our official data are not true.
          My hobby from the 94 year is the history of the Second World War. I was brought up in Soviet times, and therefore a detailed study of this story surprised me very much and sometimes put me in a stupor. Already a lot of our memoirists just lied, fencing themselves and justifying the heavy losses in the troops entrusted to them.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 21 December 2013 14: 56 New
            +8
            This is exactly what is suitable for kindling stoves. A comparative analysis of our and German documents, including personal recollections of participants in those events, shows that our official data are not true.

            dododo trololo
            Of course, of course, the “truthful” memoirs of Guderian, with stories about T34, Zhukov with a story of how they went to consult with Brezhnev and so on, are especially revealing.
            Memoirs in general are in fact the most unreliable source, and even the destroyed enemies in them, as in hunting stories, were beaten by thousands.

            But the report of small sergeants, lieutenants, majors and captains, stupidly counting how many tanks are standing in front of them on the field, which at the same time owe nothing to anyone, and there is no reason to justify themselves to them, unlike the memoirists,
            So these "petty clerks from military science" who wrote than the tanks were knocked out, measured holes with rulers and all this is fixed in the photo - this is so nonsense and lying nonsense, unlike the pathos truth of Rousov.

            A comparative analysis of our and German documents, including personal recollections of participants in those events, shows that our official data are not true.

            we'll check what you compared there.
            What is KTV 1s?

            My hobby from the 94 year is the history of the Second World War.

            Well, that means you’ve been doing crap with 94, otherwise you wouldn’t have written here about true memoirs.
            1. IRBIS
              IRBIS 21 December 2013 16: 44 New
              -1
              Quote: Stas57
              But the report of small sergeants, lieutenants, majors and captains, stupidly counting how many tanks are standing in front of them on the field, which at the same time owe nothing to anyone, and there is no reason to justify themselves to them, unlike the memoirists,

              Come on? Recall the tanks that “knocked out” 28 Panfilov’s in their stories and are comparable with real ones? Or the “herds” of the “Tigers” and the “Ferdinands” in the Battle of Kursk? Have you heard such an expression - "soldier's tales"?
              Quote: Stas57
              unlike the pathos truth of the Rausov.

              The "pathos" truth of General Routh was taught in the military educational institutions of the West, as an example of the organization of military operations against the already Soviet Army.
              Quote: Stas57
              Well, that means you’ve been doing crap with 94, otherwise you wouldn’t have written here about true memoirs.

              Who is doing what - not for you to judge. And memoirs need to be able to read, compare, analyze, comparing them with hundreds of other documents. By the way, and the memories of ordinary participants. Only not those who "poison the fables", singing themselves heroic, but those who actually sat in the trenches.
              1. iConst
                iConst 21 December 2013 17: 01 New
                0
                Quote: IRBIS
                ... And memoirs need to be able to read, compare, analyze, comparing them with hundreds of other documents. By the way, and the memories of ordinary participants. Only not those who "poison the fables", singing themselves heroic, but those who actually sat in the trenches.

                ABOUT! I almost said the same thing ... And I have long understood - there is no absolute truth. There are facts. smile
                1. Stas57
                  Stas57 21 December 2013 17: 24 New
                  +3
                  Quote: iConst
                  ABOUT! I almost said the same thing ... And I have long understood - there is no absolute truth. There are facts.

                  the question is where are they, in a document written directly at the time of the events, or in a story of an uncle written through 20-30 years, under the supervision of a literary editor, and moreover, his uncle still needs to be justified
              2. Stas57
                Stas57 21 December 2013 17: 13 New
                +5
                Come on? Recall the tanks that “knocked out” 28 Panfilov’s in their stories and are comparable with real ones? Or the “herds” of the “Tigers” and the “Ferdinands” in the Battle of Kursk? Have you heard such an expression - "soldier's tales"?

                that is, the difference between the soldier’s tale and the official report, conducted and repeatedly checked at different levels, you do not see point blank? OK.
                What about Panfilov’s official German and Soviet documents? there is not a newspaper, but documents, regimental, divisional and army levels? Ours, German?

                The "pathos" truth of General Routh was taught in the military educational institutions of the West, as an example of the organization of military operations against the already Soviet Army.

                and we have the pathetic truth of Katukov, and? True, there were all sorts of smart books for official use, but you are not talking about them.
                Who is doing what - not for you to judge. And memoirs need to be able to read, compare, analyze, comparing them with hundreds of other documents. By the way, and the memories of ordinary participants. Only not those who "poison the fables", singing themselves heroic, but those who actually sat in the trenches.

                why don’t I judge, for example, I see that Google did not give an answer what is Qtv 1s?
                then ask what is also stupid in the 38 fund, can you continue to compare the memoirs of the junior youth level for a history buff, about hundreds of documents, is this for more significance?
            2. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 21 December 2013 22: 48 New
              +1
              Something about Hetzer survivability; From Hillary Doyle’s book on Hetzer, these are the following:
              The 731st panzerier Abteilung had 25 Hetzer on July 45th. Until the end of the war he received 30 replenishment vehicles. (10 in November and 20 in December).
              On 1st Sep had 33 cars (30 combat ready), on the 1st of October. - 25 (18 battle-worthy), 26 on December 1 (11 battle-worthy), 22 on January 1 (12 battle-worthy), on February 1 - 41 (27 battle-worthy), on March 1 - 28 (13 combat ready).
              That is, for 7 months of non-stop battles with many times superior forces of the Red Army, it lost 47 vehicles irretrievably. Reception "Hetzer" was used to the full as assault guns, they were unceasingly thrown into attacks and counterattacks along with infantry, instead of extremely small tanks. "
          2. Raptor75
            Raptor75 21 December 2013 15: 28 New
            +6
            Memoirs are interesting reading material for the night, no more. Reading and delving into reports with numbers and tables is boring and tiring. It’s also necessary to think ...
            And the Germans piz .... those are still bols.
            1. IRBIS
              IRBIS 21 December 2013 16: 48 New
              -7
              Quote: Raptor75
              And the Germans piz .... those are still bols.

              But in comparison with ours - preschool children.
              1. family
                family tree 21 December 2013 17: 49 New
                +7
                Quote: IRBIS
                But in comparison with ours - preschool children.


                Bulletin of tank units from October 1944.

                "... Light tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer took part in the hostilities. Crews satisfied machine and proud of by her. Infantry I'm glad when Hetzer goes on the attack with them. Especially happy that machine gun fire with the Hetzer can be fired around the entire circumference. Excellent firepowerThe low profile and slanted walls of the hull allow two main combat missions to be successfully completed: to destroy enemy tanks and support infantry both in offensive and on the defensive. It was noted that one of the Hetzer mouths in a short time, destroyed 20 enemy tanks without losing a single vehicle. One of the Hetzer units destroyed 57 enemy tanks without any losses of their own. Moreover, it must be taken into account that this unit went into battle on the move, having before that completed a march to a distance of 160 km without a single breakdown on the way ... The frontal armor plate withstands hit by a projectile of the Soviet 76,2mm gun. The current losses were the result of shells entering the side or stern armor plates ... "

                "... During one of the tank duels between 4 Hetzer from our company (3rd company from H.Pz.Jg.Abt 731) and the Soviet IS-2 at a distance 1200мIt has been observed that 10 shells, fired by an enemy tank in the car of our commander, lay about 100m from the target. The company commander immediately ordered one of the Hetzer to move to the right in order to open fire on board the enemy tank. 6 shells fired from that Hetzer into the IS-2 set fire to it ... "
                The Ministry of Propaganda of the 3rd Reich was not surpassed by anyone! laughing
                1. svp67
                  svp67 21 December 2013 21: 32 New
                  0
                  Quote: perepilka
                  The Ministry of Propaganda of the 3rd Reich was not surpassed by anyone!

                  Propaganda is propaganda ...
                2. Amfitsion
                  Amfitsion 21 December 2013 23: 48 New
                  -1
                  According to the still ancient opinion of Mikhail Baryatinsky, according to the data on the Battle of Kursk, the Germans overestimated the enemy’s losses by 2 times. Ours - 7 times.
                  1. Stas57
                    Stas57 22 December 2013 15: 13 New
                    0
                    According to the ancient opinion of Mikhail Baryatinsky

                    And who is this?
                    what is it known for, in what archives did it work?
                    I answer, I am known for the fact that at the turn of the century I was rubbing Polish-English studies from murzilka and giving out as my research.
                    in any of the existing archives this character never worked
                3. cdrt
                  cdrt 22 December 2013 02: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: perepilka
                  Quote: IRBIS
                  But in comparison with ours - preschool children.


                  Bulletin of tank units from October 1944.

                  "... Light tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer took part in the hostilities. Crews satisfied machine and proud of by her. Infantry I'm glad when Hetzer goes on the attack with them. Especially happy that machine gun fire with the Hetzer can be fired around the entire circumference. Excellent firepowerThe low profile and slanted walls of the hull allow two main combat missions to be successfully completed: to destroy enemy tanks and support infantry both in offensive and on the defensive. It was noted that one of the Hetzer mouths in a short time, destroyed 20 enemy tanks without losing a single vehicle. One of the Hetzer units destroyed 57 enemy tanks without any losses of their own. Moreover, it must be taken into account that this unit went into battle on the move, having before that completed a march to a distance of 160 km without a single breakdown on the way ... The frontal armor plate withstands hit by a projectile of the Soviet 76,2mm gun. The current losses were the result of shells entering the side or stern armor plates ... "

                  "... During one of the tank duels between 4 Hetzer from our company (3rd company from H.Pz.Jg.Abt 731) and the Soviet IS-2 at a distance 1200мIt has been observed that 10 shells, fired by an enemy tank in the car of our commander, lay about 100m from the target. The company commander immediately ordered one of the Hetzer to move to the right in order to open fire on board the enemy tank. 6 shells fired from that Hetzer into the IS-2 set fire to it ... "
                  The Ministry of Propaganda of the 3rd Reich was not surpassed by anyone! laughing


                  The newspaper "Pravda"? laughing
              2. kotvov
                kotvov 21 December 2013 20: 15 New
                -1
                Of course, the Americans won with yours, and no one doubts. Yes, do not forget the Japanese bombed the Japanese, otherwise it does not stick.
          3. Bigriver
            Bigriver 21 December 2013 16: 55 New
            +3
            Quote: IRBIS
            ... A comparative analysis of our and German documents, including personal recollections of participants in those events, shows that our official data are not true.

            Here is our official data. on own losses Parts are very accurate.
            The losses of the adversary were inflated, yes. Like him - our losses. Moreover, the Germans often did not trifle in memoirs. They increased at times the loss of red technology!
            But in ZhBD - a completely different picture. And that is understandable. During the war, quality work was needed, and forgery could have lost a lot. And when the war ended, all the Rouths and Manstein needed to prove their own usefulness to employers.
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 21 December 2013 17: 17 New
              +2
              Bigriver
              oh well, a guy from the 94 of the year was stuck on his memoirs, the obvious difference between the requirement to give tanks for tomorrow's battle, and the beautiful tale told to the grandchildren on his knees, after 30 years, as we chopped everyone here point-blank
            2. cdrt
              cdrt 22 December 2013 02: 56 New
              0
              Quote: BigRiver
              Quote: IRBIS
              ... A comparative analysis of our and German documents, including personal recollections of participants in those events, shows that our official data are not true.

              Here is our official data. on own losses Parts are very accurate.
              The losses of the adversary were inflated, yes. Like him - our losses. Moreover, the Germans often did not trifle in memoirs. They increased at times the loss of red technology!
              But in ZhBD - a completely different picture. And that is understandable. During the war, quality work was needed, and forgery could have lost a lot. And when the war ended, all the Rouths and Manstein needed to prove their own usefulness to employers.


              You would Muller-Guildenbrand then read a book or something laughing
              1. Bigriver
                Bigriver 22 December 2013 05: 42 New
                +1
                Quote: cdrt
                ... would you Muller-Guildenbrand then read a book or something laughing

                What part of Mueller’s bookGillebranda devoted to OUR losses?
                As for their losses. This book is, after all, a secondary source. Summarizing, and according to the testimony of many of our historians, flawed by the method of counting.
                The primary is the ZhBD.
                Now I’m reading Isaev “Another 1941: from the border to Leningrad”. He cites our losses with the Germans throughout the book, comparing it to the primary: the railways of German divisions and our corps, armies. According to the losses of our equipment, as a rule - an amazing proximity of estimates (aviation, tanks, artillery).
              2. IRBIS
                IRBIS 23 December 2013 09: 47 New
                -2
                Quote: cdrt
                You would Muller-Guildenbrand then read a book or something

                You can’t explain anything to those who, letting in patriotic snot, don’t want to see obvious things, but don’t want to take the trouble themselves. The obvious nonsense is repeated, which they hung in the form of noodles on their ears, like parrots.
            3. sapran
              sapran 22 December 2013 20: 07 New
              0
              do not blush and do not invent too much. Losses were sometimes recorded according to the rule of three “Ps,” and when a part was surrounded, then how to be, as well as taking into account trophies.
              But all this is offtopic.
        2. iConst
          iConst 21 December 2013 16: 59 New
          0
          Quote: Stas57
          memoirs with a loss ratio can only be used for kindling a stove.

          I agree. I read memories only to assess that point of view, and then only "venerable" military leaders. And all sorts of retired goat drummers there - toilets ...
          Of course, all these memories are extremely biased. Sometimes episodes are outright nonsense.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 21 December 2013 17: 21 New
            0
            announced I read memories only to assess that point of view, and then only "venerable" military leaders. And all sorts of retired goat drummers there - toilets ...
            Of course, all these memories are extremely biased. Sometimes episodes are outright nonsense.

            Above we were told that the raus and heinz do not lie, and all of their numbers of damaged tanks are super accurate, unlike the Soviet documents of losses at any army level.
            and it’s not joking, and history, it’s not clear what the truth is, it’s already dealing with 94
            1. kotvov
              kotvov 21 December 2013 20: 20 New
              0
              as he looked after the survivor of the Prokhorov battle, he generally stated that the losses of the German army amounted to 1,5 tigers. And we eat nothing.
          2. samoletil18
            samoletil18 23 December 2013 22: 50 New
            0
            I read memories only to assess that point of view, and then only "venerable" military leaders. And all sorts of retired goat drummers there - toilets ...
            Of course, all these memories are extremely biased. Sometimes episodes are outright nonsense.

            But what kind of satisfaction do you feel when the author of their memoirs necessarily presented the right solution, but Hitler ...
      2. Bigriver
        Bigriver 21 December 2013 16: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: IRBIS
        ... Routh, Guderian and Manstein have references to these machines with an indication of the ratio of losses.

        Hmm ... Are you absolutely sure that in these books there are references to the Hetzer, indicating the ratio of losses?
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 21 December 2013 17: 19 New
          0
          Hmm ... Are you absolutely sure that in these books there are references to the Hetzer, indicating the ratio of losses?

          memoirs are the most important documents that do not lie, or there are all sorts of rash reports, such as the "GABTU Report on the captured enemy technology on the *** front from *** to *** 194 * of the year"
          1. Bigriver
            Bigriver 21 December 2013 18: 01 New
            +4
            Quote: Stas57

            memoirs are the most important documents that don’t lie, ..

            Guderian read 2 times (a long time). Manstein - 1,5 times, the second time selectively (also for a long time). Rausa - one, three years ago.
            The fact is that Guderian could not write about the Hetzer. At the time of their mass use, he was chief of the General Staff dry. troops.
            Manstein categorically could not. He was honorably retired in the spring of the 44th.
            Routh - could, but did not write repeat
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 21 December 2013 18: 10 New
              0
              Quote: BigRiver
              Routh - could, but did not write

              and we will strongly ask us to show where these authors have such
              IRBIS (2) Today, 10: 37 ↑ Routh, Guderian and Manstein have references to these machines with an indication of the ratio of losses.

              and at the same time take an interest in where memoirs
              Routh was taught in military schools in the West,

              I really hope IRBIS will give us a complete answer to the questions
              1. Stas57
                Stas57 22 December 2013 15: 15 New
                0
                Quote: Stas57
                I really hope IRBIS will give us a complete answer to the questions

                no answer
              2. IRBIS
                IRBIS 23 December 2013 09: 56 New
                0
                Quote: Stas57
                and at the same time take an interest in where the memoirs
                Routh was taught in military schools in the West,

                I really hope IRBIS will give us a complete answer to the questions


                E. Raus. "Tank battles on the Eastern Front."

                On the basis of Routh's notes, a series of instructions on conducting combat operations in Russia was prepared taking into account the peculiarities of the Russian climate, terrain, combat qualities of the Soviet troops and the specifics of command methods.
                1. Stas57
                  Stas57 24 December 2013 09: 37 New
                  0
                  IRBIS
                  and all?
                  But what about the exact loss figures in the above memoirs?
                  Where are the quotes?
    2. family
      family tree 21 December 2013 16: 59 New
      +4
      Quote: sapran
      He destroyed a lot? and why?

      Drabkin, in the second part of the memoirs of tankers, is mentioned several times. Well, from here http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/jagdpz38t_hetzer.php
      The low silhouette made Hetzer a difficult target, while allowing him to be less visible, which in turn increased Hetzer's chances of a surprise attack first. Anti-tank 75mm. the gun was noticeably shifted to the right, which created additional difficulties for the crew, since the gun itself was designed to charge on the right. Hetzer shot through the frontal armor of the Soviet T-34/85 from a distance of 700 meters, while the T-34/85 could hit Hetzer in the forehead only from a distance of 400 meters. But the Soviet IS-2 could hit Hetzer already from a distance of 1000 meters, while Hetzer had a chance to knock out the IS-2 only at a distance of no more than 100 meters.
      and more
      Several captured Hetzer were used by Polish, American, Soviet and English troops. Probably the most famous of the captured Hetzer was the Polish People's Army captured on August 2, 1944 from the 743rd Panzerjager regiment during the Warsaw Uprising, which was repaired, called the "Chwat" (Brave Guy), and was used in battles against its previous owners.
  5. igordok
    igordok 21 December 2013 10: 31 New
    +2
    Interestingly, the lightweight Pz-38 (t) chassis turned out to be more promising than the medium-sized Pz-III and Pz-IV chassis because of its cheapness and simplicity. A kind - the German "thirty-four" of the end of the war. Although the situation is rather similar to the release of the T-60 and T-70 in the critical days of the war.
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 21 December 2013 22: 51 New
      0
      Not really, the T-70, and especially the T-60, are almost helpless even against relatively weak enemy armor plates, while Hetzer whipped even with ISs, and the zooming with medium tanks, T-34, Sherman, Cromwells was chopped up - "mother do not grieve" ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 21 December 2013 23: 07 New
        +3
        Quote: Amphitious
        was cut - "mother do not grieve" ...

        Well, it’s cut, of course --- it’s their ambush.
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 21 December 2013 23: 11 New
          0
          Zdarova Kars,
          In another post I gave statistics on the losses of the 731st division. In the North, the Hans of tank formations had only a "cat cried," while ours had crowds.
          And I think you should have heard that, according to German tests, they came to the conclusion that the Hetzer is superior to the T-34-85 in a frontal attack, and it’s significant.
          Well, they “killed” each other on board almost at a distance of a direct shot.
          1. Kars
            Kars 21 December 2013 23: 18 New
            +1
            Quote: Amphitious
            loss statistics of the 731st division

            saw
            Quote: Amphitious
            And I think you should have heard that, according to German tests, they came to the conclusion that the Hetzer is superior to the T-34-85 in a frontal attack, and it’s significant.

            I didn’t hear it. And I would like to know in more detail the calculation method. And the fact that the T-45-34 85 mm forehead was very vulnerable, what can I do. Speed, maneuver is their chance.
            Quote: Amphitious
            In the north

            is it in norway?
            1. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 21 December 2013 23: 36 New
              0
              What is Norway, bro? GA "North", then Courland. Hetzer is not immortal, but very ferocious and effective. Although the Germans thought it was not quite the same substitute for StuG III / IV
              1. cdrt
                cdrt 22 December 2013 02: 59 New
                0
                Quote: Amphitious
                What is Norway, bro? GA "North", then Courland. Hetzer is not immortal, but very ferocious and effective. Although the Germans thought it was not quite the same substitute for StuG III / IV


                If I am not mistaken in the Yashvetsar army, the Hetzer used long after WWII
          2. Kars
            Kars 21 December 2013 23: 21 New
            +4
            cool picture too
            1. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 21 December 2013 23: 38 New
              -1
              What is it like? A direct hit by the fab or millimeter commercials 203?
  6. Bongo
    Bongo 21 December 2013 12: 04 New
    +4
    Very interesting! "+"
    I would also like to read about the tank destroyer Jagdpanzer IV / 70. It was a very strong car, but for some reason there is little information in our sources about it.
    1. family
      family tree 21 December 2013 17: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: Bongo
      read about the Jagdpanzer IV / 70 tank destroyer.

      http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/jagdpzIV.php
      There is little here
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. Impich
    Impich 21 December 2013 16: 50 New
    -18
    Yes, our tanks and self-propelled guns (well, probably except for the 100s) so they all sucks ... I see in them only one advantage ... cheap and quick-release guano .... unlike our Germans released serious products ... it is worth looking at the ratio of losses at the fronts and everything will become clear ... and do not forget, history experts, that without Lend-Lease we would have generally produced tanks with cardboard armor for 80% of the doped additives we were supplied with, as the damned traitors said at the time, which didn’t open the second, which by the way to notice from the 39th was the first .. for the mustachioed tore the Poles just like Hitler ...
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 21 December 2013 17: 08 New
      +6
      Quote: Impich
      ... and do not forget you are experts in history that without Lend-Lease, we would have produced tanks with cardboard armor for 80% of the alloyed additives were delivered to us as damned traitors did not open the second, which by the way from the 39th was the first to say .. because the mustachioed vomited Poles just like Hitler ...

      Amazingly powerful, umm, grasping laughingbelaylaughing
      No, there really isn’t enough a smile "it crashed to tears."
    2. family
      family tree 21 December 2013 17: 36 New
      +3
      Quote: Impich
      Yes, our tanks and self-propelled guns (well, probably except for the 100s) so they all sucks ... I see in them only one advantage ... cheap and quick-release guano .... unlike our Germans released serious products ... it is worth looking at the ratio of losses at the fronts and everything will become clear ... and do not forget, history experts, that without Lend-Lease we would have generally produced tanks with cardboard armor for 80% of the doped additives we were supplied with, as the damned traitors said at the time, which didn’t open the second, which by the way to notice from the 39th was the first .. for the mustachioed tore the Poles just like Hitler ...

      laughing Well, he took and called the Foshists useless cowards, who were given first-class, sophisticated shit-harvesters, and they screamed, from some kind, mgm, well, in general, to Berlin. The same to me, warriors. tongue And Lyakhov seems to hate at all what , what's worse than that, well, you understand? Well, the Nazis ran from the poop, and the Poles from the Nazis belay
      Concerning alloying additives, this is to Hiam Charles, a book called "Trade with the Enemy"
      As for the first second front, it seems like it merged safely in Dunkirk, in 1940, well, the British, though after that they shot, in boats, in French, in order to avoid, so to speak request
      1. Impich
        Impich 21 December 2013 18: 27 New
        -9
        ahem .. okay so did you get the naughty answer .. neighing maleha ... so what is wrong ?? I also wrote that Natsik would have flunked us without the help of the alliance because they fed and nurtured our army ... what's wrong ?? and Poles yes .. I hate them and despise .. what any sober-minded person should do ... and really consider our tanks and self-propelled guns to be worthless sucks, everything seems to be true .... and I really think that they filled up the corpses of Hans ... and all these calculations are from the crafty ... there is a site I remember and many memoirs of our and German soldiers .. everything is eloquently described .. Nikulin can be read ... and don’t have to say that he was an ohm and a psychopath ... and I really think that a mustachioed in alliance with Adea, the WWII began ... in fact it was so .. just read the texts of the welcome telegrams that Molotov tapped to Berlin on the occasion of the next victory of the Nazis ... and if our tanks were so good then why stick in the 41st 800 tanks tore to pieces 8000 of our ... and again just do not have to say that out of 8 thousand on the move there were only 2 ...
        1. kotvov
          kotvov 21 December 2013 20: 34 New
          0
          you definitely need to heal your brains, and preferably with something solid. although I doubt that it will help. If there is a mind, turn on supplies, production, losses. Thank God, it’s not incurable.
        2. family
          family tree 21 December 2013 21: 18 New
          +1
          Well, about a lot of thousands of tanks, this is to Kolomiyets and Shein, the book is called "Order in the tank troops." At the expense of Nikulin, even there is no desire to read the memoirs of a sergeant gunner from the regiment of corps artillery, which belongs to the RGK and does not see the advanced by definition.
          September 1, Germany attacks Poland
          September 3 England, France, Australia and New Zealand enter the war
          On September 17, the USSR begins to send troops into the eastern regions of Poland, and nothing, no protests from the Polish government from Romania.
          By the way, on September 1 of the same year, a new law on universal military service came into force in the USSR, the draft age was shifted from 21 to 18 years, as a result, the army grew to 5 million. Now, estimate how much time it takes to learn and grow on this army, platoon commanders, companies, battalions, regiments, divisions, armies? Let me tell you, the five-year plan in three days, so, children's fun.
          At the expense of Lend-Lease, on the Internet a lot of information on deliveries, timing and quantity, I advise you to pay attention to the timing and quantity, by year, by month and compare this with the main battles on the Soviet-German front, a very interesting regularity looms wink
          1. Impich
            Impich 22 December 2013 19: 40 New
            0
            Quote: perepilka
            nothing, no protests from the Polish government from Romania.

            Of course they were very happy.)))) No, I won’t argue here because from the side of the Russophile I support this step .. n from the side of the international community and international law it was a step of undoubted aggression ...
          2. sapran
            sapran 22 December 2013 20: 16 New
            +1
            I read their work. I am grateful for the fact that they climbed through the archives and raised many interesting documents. And I simply skipped the rest of the gag and conclusions and attributed to the author’s vision and nothing more ... I bought the first T-34s specially, but considering that the authors again “dug” what they planned and thought up, they are grateful to them for scans of archival documents. People worked hard for this, but the book is again subjective "rather author's vision."
          3. Stas57
            Stas57 23 December 2013 09: 47 New
            +1
            Quote: perepilka
            Well, about a lot of thousands of tanks, this is to Kolomiyets and Shein, the book is called "Order in the tank troops." To the account

            Shein and Ulanov
            1. family
              family tree 23 December 2013 23: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: Stas57
              Shein and Ulanov

              Guilty, I will correct hi Memory, all holes and holes request
    3. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 21 December 2013 22: 53 New
      +1
      Aluminum was much more important for tank engines, especially in the 42nd year.
  9. iConst
    iConst 21 December 2013 17: 06 New
    +1
    The most "prolific" Soviet self-propelled gun of the 2nd world SU-76 also showed itself well. When they learned to use it for its intended purpose ...
    1. family
      family tree 21 December 2013 21: 34 New
      +3
      Quote: iConst
      The most "prolific" Soviet self-propelled gun of the 2nd world SU-76 also showed itself well. When they learned to use it for its intended purpose ...

      I'd rather something like
      Vespe, at least with this
      or this
    2. cdrt
      cdrt 22 December 2013 03: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: iConst
      The most "prolific" Soviet self-propelled gun of the 2nd world SU-76 also showed itself well. When they learned to use it for its intended purpose ...


      Not bad. As they called her who fought on her - Farewell to youth, a bitch and the best - nude Ferdinand laughing
  10. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 21 December 2013 17: 16 New
    +3
    It should be noted that the chassis of the Czech tank LT-38 was in demand after the war. The same Czechs began to produce the “Hetzer” for the needs of their own army under the designation ST-I / ST-III, although mostly as training machines. And also on the order of Switzerland under the designation G-13, where in 1946-190. 150 Hetzer was delivered. And on the Swiss G-13 German anti-tank guns PaK 40 were installed. A number of other changes were made to the design of the G-13 compared to the German and Czechoslovak versions, including those aimed at increasing the service life of the ACS, originally created for wartime and designed only for relatively short use. Subsequently, G-13 instead of gasoline engines equipped with diesel, the production of the Swiss company "Zaurer." Although the Czechoslovakia "Hetzer" were decommissioned a few years after the end of production, in Switzerland they remained in service until the 1972 year.

    Swiss anti-tank SU G-13
    Swedes producing LT-38 under license in 1941-1943. under the designation Strv m / 41, they created at their base an assault gun Sav m / 43, armed with an 105-mm howitzer installed in a fully closed light-armored wheelhouse.

    And in the 60-ies on the chassis of the decommissioned tanks created tracked armored personnel carrier Pbv 301.
  11. max702
    max702 21 December 2013 18: 16 New
    +4
    Quote: IRBIS
    But in comparison with ours - preschool children.

    So much for the memoirs ...
    RS: The text is not mine but I think it will be the point
    “Even if we lose the war in reality, we must win it on paper”

    Hendrick Ferten. Dutch SS man.



    FOREWORD.

    When does the past begin? Never asked this question?

    Yes, right now it begins. Right now, the precious seconds of life are turning into the past. Yesterday is history. And yesterday determines today, and today does tomorrow. Yesterday's thoughts and actions make our day what it has become. This applies to us, small people, and countries. Historical determinism.

    What was ten or one hundred years ago affects today. This is the idea that I am trying to convey to you, the reader, this is not the first time. War begins where it is forgotten. As soon as it turns into the intellectual amusement of people who kept weapons only in museums, she instantly gets a bloody ghost behind the morning window, choosing new victims for herself. As soon as human tragedy turns into dry statistics, and feat and betrayal into archival pieces of paper, the war slowly seeps into reality. The new generation is no longer afraid to fight. It is already ready to flood the enemy with units, completely unaware that the units will be precisely those who intelligently talk about the advantages of an intermediate cartridge, but do not know what smells of gunpowder and blood. Historical dialectics.

    As soon as the generation of veterans who triumphed in the most brutal war of humanity is gone - or almost gone - the war ceased to be perceived as a tragedy. The tragedy of both the people and the little man. And all of us - and I, and you, the reader, are small people, no more. When the reinterpretation of the war began, a strange, although understandable, coup in historical reflection occurred.

    They practically abandoned the Soviet view of the history of the Great Patriotic War. Two so-called history schools arose. True, neither one nor the other are scientific, but they are trying to claim mass popularity. Both of them succeeded.

    The first is revisionist. Suvorov, Beshanov, Sokolov, Solonin - they all try in different ways to prove that the USSR is the main criminal in World War II, that they overwhelmed the enemy with corpses, that they fought with one rifle for three, that they would drink Bavarian and be attached to the values ​​of European civilization.
  12. max702
    max702 21 December 2013 18: 19 New
    +5
    The second school arose as a criticism of the first. Based on archival data, the followers of this school to the smithereens to smithereens and spread the nonsense of the revisionists, and they do it right. The most significant figure of this school is Alexey Isaev. In the wake of success - and there really is success - this school called itself "objectivist." Claiming the lack of ideology in research is right, but ... But impossible. History is always an ideology. This is not a set of facts, but an interpretation of these facts. Any event can be interpreted in completely different ways. It all depends on the position of the observer. I will give a lot of examples when the same event can be interpreted as a crime and as heroism. But no one can ever rise above the battle and analyze impartially. Such is the nature of history that the facts themselves are hopelessly lost already in the process of the event itself. What can we say about the events of eighty years ago? As a result, standing on the tip of the needle turns into an inevitable bias in one direction or another. An uncritical attitude towards German documents and a critical attitude towards Soviet documents inevitably leads to excuses from Germany and allies. The myth “The Germans cannot lie" leads, for example, to an underestimation of the losses of German soldiers and to an overestimation of Soviet losses. As a result, the German side fought with skill, the Soviet number. Here the "objectivists" are already converging, imperceptibly for themselves, with the revisionists. But the conclusion goes on: the Soviet system is less effective than the national socialist system. And already further it is possible to continue so. The USSR is the same criminal as Nazi Germany. And if so, then it is necessary to review the results of the Nuremberg trials. And, finally, the inevitable ending: equating the USSR with Nazi Germany will inevitably lead to reparations in favor of the “victims” of the Red Army. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro ...

    Today these countries are still liberated. Tomorrow they may become occupied. It does not matter that Estonians and Latvians served and fought as part of the Red Army. Today, SS veterans go gogol there. It doesn’t matter that Ukraine suffered from the invasion of Western hordes, it is important that today punitives from the SS Galichina SS division are buried with military honors.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. max702
    max702 21 December 2013 18: 22 New
    +1
    The second school arose as a criticism of the first. Based on archival data, the followers of this school to the smithereens to smithereens and spread the nonsense of the revisionists, and they do it right. The most significant figure of this school is Alexey Isaev. In the wake of success - and there really is success - this school called itself "objectivist." Claiming the lack of ideology in research is right, but ... But impossible. History is always an ideology. This is not a set of facts, but an interpretation of these facts. Any event can be interpreted in completely different ways. It all depends on the position of the observer. I will give a lot of examples when the same event can be interpreted as a crime and as heroism. But no one can ever rise above the battle and analyze impartially. Such is the nature of history that the facts themselves are hopelessly lost already in the process of the event itself. What can we say about the events of eighty years ago? As a result, standing on the tip of the needle turns into an inevitable bias in one direction or another. An uncritical attitude towards German documents and a critical attitude towards Soviet documents inevitably leads to excuses from Germany and allies. The myth “The Germans cannot lie" leads, for example, to an underestimation of the losses of German soldiers and to an overestimation of Soviet losses. As a result, the German side fought with skill, the Soviet number. Here the "objectivists" are already converging, imperceptibly for themselves, with the revisionists. But the conclusion goes on: the Soviet system is less effective than the national socialist system. And already further it is possible to continue so. The USSR is the same criminal as Nazi Germany. And if so, then it is necessary to review the results of the Nuremberg trials. And, finally, the inevitable ending: equating the USSR with Nazi Germany will inevitably lead to reparations in favor of the “victims” of the Red Army. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro ...

    Today these countries are still liberated. Tomorrow they may become occupied. It does not matter that Estonians and Latvians served and fought as part of the Red Army. Today, SS veterans go gogol there. It doesn’t matter that Ukraine suffered from the invasion of Western hordes, it is important that today punitives from the SS Galichina SS division are buried with military honors.
  15. max702
    max702 21 December 2013 18: 23 New
    +8
    History always breaks into reality - whether you want it, the reader of it, or not. It’s like with the law of gravity. You may not agree with him, but his violation is punishable, at least by disability.

    We forgot that that war was special. It was a war of extermination. Europeans never perceived Russia in any of its forms as equal to itself. From their point of view, we are only barbarians. It was for us the war of the Great and Patriotic. For them, it was a Crusade plus colonization.

    Then they failed. Although it almost happened. As failed in the nineties, although again it almost happened. I know hundreds, if not thousands, of normal Russian, Tatar, Udmurt, Ukrainian, Belarusian guys and girls whose heads are not poisoned by alcohol and consumerism, and in their eyes there is a hope for a bright future. And I know dozens of those who have already forgotten that colonial war.

    In their heads formed the myth of a cultured German soldier, such a blond knight without fear and reproach, who was stopped by countless hordes of "Mongols with Kalashnikovs."

    On the shelves of our bookstores are dozens of memoirs of German soldiers, officers, generals, in which this image is carefully cultivated. And many, even very clever people, believe and quote these memoirs. Here they say, as it was in reality.

    In my work, I will try to prove that these memoirs lie. They lie brazenly and godlessly.

    Why are they lying? This question has already been answered by one of the failed colonialists, the Dutch SS man Hendrik Ferten. I put these words in the epigraph, for they are the quintessence of the entire information war that began immediately after May 9, 1945. And on whose side are you, the reader, you decide.
    1. I think so
      I think so 23 December 2013 19: 30 New
      +1
      Dear max702. I’d like to add the verses of A. Chelyshev on this subject after your words:

      Meeting at the restaurant
      I insulted him, I said: “Captain,
      You will never be a major "...

      He cried then, he asked about his father,
      He screamed, stupidly looking at the dish:
      “I gave half a life for you, scoundrel,
      And you burn your life, Paskuda!
      A rifle to you, and send you into battle,
      And you are getting vodka here with me! ”
      I sat in a trench under the Kursk Bulge
      Where the captain was foreman.
      V.Vysotsky

      No, you were not in the trench near Kursk,
      And you don’t know what it is,
      And it annoys you that he's Starshina,
      He lived with dignity in the days of a terrible battle.
      He remained who he was - forever foreman,
      And he captain epaulettes
      Gave the country, honoring that fighting spirit,
      And involuntarily taken years.
      He is one of those for whom the hourly war
      And in the soul an unhealed wound.
      At the peace table, he again met the enemy,
      Tainted the honor of the captain.

      It’s clear that it’s easy to write about the dead,
      Dead face of a living hero
      You can invent and choose for yourself -
      In life, we often meet different.

      Before them lie hundreds of thousands of fighters,
      They feel - they were obscured ....
      Their fault is not there, but the sorrow of the veil
      They put it in their hearts forever.

      Because they drink a lot and always say
      What did they protect themselves
      Our lives, our holiday, laughing eyes
      And the opportunity to live peacefully, without a fight.

      My father-in-law is also such a foreman-captain
      Memory correctly treated with alcohol ...
      Entered the battle rage, I was dying him,
      But always revered as a hero.
  16. karavay1982
    karavay1982 21 December 2013 19: 46 New
    0
    That's interesting how it turns out. An article about self-propelled guns and attempts to upgrade it.
    And here such meanings were dragged into the white light. Oh, they’ll probably be minus immediately.
    But let's just discuss this very self-propelled gun, its production, strengths and weaknesses.
    But was not Stalin a bloody tyrant or why the Germans were such pedants.
    But just about weapons.
    1. kirpich
      kirpich 21 December 2013 21: 25 New
      +1
      Well, what are you talking about. Here, "ZUBRA" is measured in caliber, and you are talking about some kind of self-propelled gun (moreover, "fascist") wink
    2. kirpich
      kirpich 21 December 2013 21: 25 New
      0
      Well, what are you talking about. Here, "ZUBRA" is measured in caliber, and you are talking about some kind of self-propelled gun (moreover, "fascist") wink
  17. zlyden2013
    zlyden2013 21 December 2013 19: 53 New
    0
    Thanks for the article I read liked actual
  18. bublic82009
    bublic82009 21 December 2013 23: 40 New
    0
    in a hopeless situation, the Nazis took this path.
  19. mejik
    mejik 22 December 2013 06: 21 New
    +3
    Quote: Impich
    yes our ... everything sucks ... I see in them only one advantage ... cheap ... guano .... unlike ours, the Germans released serious products ... with cardboard armor ... as the damned traitors said then ... for the mustachioed vomited ...
    Cho, a historian, you can see right away! For ...
  20. samoletil18
    samoletil18 23 December 2013 23: 11 New
    +1
    You can argue for a long time. The main thing is that “Hetzer” did not become the weapon of their victory. Our tank designers rated it very highly. Compared in value to our T-60. Fortunately, they did not grow together, or God was then on our side.