Military Review

German tank industry to 1945 year

43
As in other types of armed forces of Germany, the customer in the development of one type or another tank (SAU) the main command of the ground forces acted, which developed tactical and technical requirements for the design of a particular model, and determined for which combat missions this or that model was created.


It was for the solution of these tasks that a special structure was created in the structure of the ground command of the ground forces - the Army Armaments Directorate, which from April 1940 of the year until the end of the war was headed by General Artillery E. Leeb.

There were several headquarters within the weapons department, which were engaged in the following:
development of new types of weapons, ammunition and equipment and their testing;
placing orders for the production of weapons, ammunition and equipment at industrial plants;
ensuring the serial production of weapons, equipment and ammunition at industrial plants;
military acceptance of finished weapons, equipment and ammunition at industrial enterprises;
collection and accounting of captured weapons and equipment.


Assembling fighter jets of Jagdpanzer 38 (t) Hetzer tanks at the VMM plant in Prague. Summer 1944 of the year (NM)


By the beginning of 1941, more than 25 thousand people worked in the armaments management structure.

The headquarters engaged in the development of new types of weapons and equipment, subordinated to the so-called armaments test departments - Waffen-Pruf or abbreviated as WaPruf, which in 1944 was counted 13. Each department worked on its own topic (communications, optics, engineering property, small, artillery, tank, rocket weapons, etc.). Departments obeyed special polygons on which new samples were tested. If necessary, it was possible to use for this purpose polygons or training centers of the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe.

The 6 armament testing department (WaPruf 6), which from 1943 of the year until the end of the war was headed by Colonel Holzhauer (later in the text of the work, for convenience of perception, the 6 department of the tank armament test), was engaged in armored vehicles. This department oversaw the development, testing and organization of the mass production of new models of armored weapons, as well as army vehicles and tractors. By order of the Army Arms Control Headquarters, the department officers developed tactical and technical requirements for the creation of new types of equipment, while they worked closely with the engineers and designers of the respective firms and factories, and also supervised the work of civilian specialists. At the disposal of the department there was a test site in Burke.

The design of new designs in this department was led by Major General E. Knipkamp, ​​an engineer who can be redeployed as “Chief Designer of the Tank Armaments Test Department”. He was known as the author of the so-called “chess” undercarriage, which was used on all German semi-tracked vehicles and armored personnel carriers, as well as on the Tiger and Panther tanks.

The activities of industrial enterprises involved in the production of military equipment (including tanks) were led by the Reich Ministers of Armaments and Ammunition, created on March 17, 1940, and renamed the Reich Ministers of Arms and Military Industry on March 2, 1943. F. Todt led his activities, and after his death from February 9, 1942 until the end of the war, A. Speer. As part of the Reich ministry, there was a technical department, headed by O. Zaur, who directed the work of the so-called committees (tank, artillery, aviation etc.). Each of them oversaw their industry, engaged in the placement of military orders at enterprises and monitoring their implementation.


Destroyed by the troops of the 3 of the Ukrainian Front, the tank Pz. IVAusf.J. Hungary, March 1945 of the year. According to the “crisis” production program for tanks, in 1945, these vehicles and their chassis should have been taken out of production, as well as the Pz chassis. Ill (ASKM)


In addition, the structure of the Reich Ministerial Arms had a so-called “tank commission”, which was once headed by the designer F. Porsche. It was created as a kind of deliberative body to address issues related to the development of new types of armored weapons. The commission often worked in close cooperation with representatives of the tank weapon test department, as well as with officers from the headquarters of the tank forces.

In addition to the control of armaments of the ground forces and the Reich ministry of armaments, there was another structure in the Third Reich that participated in the creation of new models of armored vehicles - the headquarters of the general inspector of tank forces.

This position was approved by Hitler 28 February 1943 of the year with the appointment of Colonel-General G. Guderian (held until 28 March 1945 of the year). The functions of the inspector general included the organization and training of tank units, the provision of personnel and equipment to the front, the distribution of armor units manufactured at enterprises, a synthesis of combat experience gained in the use of tank units, the development of regulations and manuals and the like. Spare and training units, as well as schools and schools of tank forces were subordinate to him. The inspector general of tank forces reported directly to Hitler.

The new post of Guderian did not imply his participation in the process of developing new types of armored vehicles. However, using his position and influence (“the father of the German tank forces” after all), he often attended the discussion of new projects and gave his recommendations. And the fact that Guderian was subordinate directly to Hitler allowed him to intervene in the issue of the release of tanks. To be fair, after the appointment of Guderian as Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces in July 1944 (he remained Inspector General of the Tank Forces), Major General Tomale, the Chief Inspector of the Armored Forces, assumed most of his duties.

As can be seen, the tank design system in Germany and the organization of their mass production was carried out according to a rather complicated scheme. The design order was issued by the Army High Command, entered the weapons department, which, in turn, “lowered” him to the tank weapons testing department, which was specifically financed for these purposes. The WaPruf 6 department developed detailed tactical and technical requirements and entered into a design contract with a company, often bypassing the Reich ministry of armaments.


Tank destroyer Jagdpanzer IV / 70 (V), abandoned by the crew at the close approaches to Berlin. April 1945 of the year. The car most likely was recently obtained from the factory, as it is painted in a single color without camouflage, some symbols and numbers


After the project was ready, it was discussed by representatives of the tank weapon test department and the “tank commission” (or the workers of the Reichs ministry of armaments), then a prototype was made and tested under the control of WaPruf 6. If the machine met the requirements for it, it was accepted for service. The decision on this issue was taken by the Army Chief of Command, often after the approval of Hitler (as commander-in-chief). The latter were necessarily made relevant reports (the armaments department or the Reich ministry of armaments). Often, Hitler personally attended the demonstration of prototypes.

After the adoption of the model, the issues of serial production of the tank or self-propelled guns were coordinated with the Reich Minister. At the same time, part of the issues of weapons management had to be addressed directly with the manufacturer. This primarily concerned the organization of deliveries of a number of components and parts, such as armaments, optics, communications equipment, etc.

Thus, the Armaments Administration of the Ground Forces High Command was the customer, and the Reich Minister of Arms was the executor. True, there was one nuance - private companies were engaged in the manufacture of armored vehicles (or any other weapons), with which the armaments control was calculated for the products manufactured. As a result, the Reich ministry was like an intermediate link between the customer and the direct executor - the manufacturing company. This, of course, created additional bureaucratic red tape when solving problems of organizing the production of weapons and military equipment.


Jagdtiger heavy tank destroyers at the Nibelungenwerke assembly shop in St. Valentine. January 1945 of the year. Onboard the leftmost car, its number -54 and the date of shooting 16.01.45 are marked.


A certain “element of destabilization” in this process could be introduced by the headquarters of the general-inspector of tank forces, insisting upon designing a prototype on the fulfillment of some of its requirements. Do not forget that all of the above structures (arms management, Reich ministry of arms, manufacturer, headquarters of the inspector general) had different subordination. This required a very clear organization of all the work. Often it was extremely difficult to do this, as a result of which a lot of time was spent on solving some problems or developing a sample, and the results obtained were unsatisfactory.

When compared with similar structures of the Red Army, the test section of tank weapons (WaPruf 6) by purpose and function roughly corresponded to the main armored control of the command of the commander of the armored and mechanized troops of the Red Army. True, the German department was engaged only in the development of samples, and also provided assistance in the organization of their mass production, if necessary. All other problems of the German tank forces (acceptance of finished products, repairs, training, formation and staffing of parts, etc.) were handled by other units, and in various structures: directly in the weapons control, in the main command of the ground forces, in the headquarters of the general inspector of tank troops. Thus, in the Red Army, all questions related to tank forces were concentrated in the same hands — the command of the commander of the armored and mechanized troops, while in the German army this was “spread out” in different departments and headquarters.

In addition, in the USSR there was a people's commissariat of the tank industry, created at the beginning of the war. It consisted of all tank (with the exception of GAZ) and armored hulls, as well as plants for the production of diesel engines and other equipment. The leadership of the People's Commissariat of the tank industry worked closely with the command of the commander of the armored and mechanized forces of the Red Army. Such tough centralization in wartime conditions greatly facilitated the work, while in Germany it took considerable time to coordinate the activities of various military and civilian structures.


Repair and evacuation tank Bergepanther, padded in the area of ​​Budapest. February 1945 of the year. These vehicles were used to evacuate armored vehicles from the battlefield, but their number was extremely small.


In the middle of the 1943 year, to improve the organization of the production of armored vehicles on the initiative of A. Speer, a so-called “Tank Development Commission” is being created. It included not only the leaders of the Reich ministry of armaments and armor companies, but also the military - representatives of the Army Armaments Directorate, Panzer Tank (WaPruf 6) and Artillery (WaPruf 4) Armaments Departments, as well as Headquarters of the Inspector General of Tank Forces. The chairman of the commission was the representative of the company Henschel, doctor of technical sciences S. Hedkamp.

If necessary, employees of various departments, both military and civil, were involved in the work of the commission. The creation of such a body consisting of representatives of various departments made it possible to make decisions more quickly on various problems arising in the production of tanks.

By the fall of 1944, the enterprises of 16 firms were engaged in the production of tanks and self-propelled guns in Germany, and 9 produced armored vehicles and armored personnel carriers. In addition, 20 factories of various companies supplied armor details and armored hulls to ensure the assembly of equipment and 9 - artillery weapons (see tables).

Since the second half of 1944, the bombing of German industrial enterprises by Allied aviation has increased significantly. For example, two-week bombing attacks at Daimler-Benz’s factories resulted in the destruction of the diesel engine plant in Berlin-Marienfeld and the truck production workshop in Gaggenau, the 85% engine and body shop in Sindelfingen, the 70% the main shop in Stuttgart (where cars were made).


The yard of the company Ml AG in Braunschweig after its capture by US troops. May 1945 of the year. Here, up to 30 armored corps fighter jagdpanther tanks and six corps with logging (lie separately) assault guns


To ensure the uninterrupted release of tanks and self-propelled guns, the Reich ministry of armaments attempted to “disaggregate” production. For this, separate assembly lines or workshops from head factories were transferred to other places. For example, in September 1944, part of the equipment of Daimler-Benz was removed from the main plant in Berlin, placing it in small production facilities in Küstrina, Teltova and Falkensee, as well as in the Sudetes and Pomerania. On the one hand, this made it possible to keep separate assembly lines from Allied aviation attacks, on the other hand, it created additional problems related to the organization of transportation of finished products and the delivery of the necessary raw materials to numerous production sites. Indeed, in addition to the main assembly plants of the three companies (Daimler-Benz, MAN, MNH), the Panthers issue also included 133 companies or firms that received armor details, engines, weapons, optics, communications equipment, tracks, black and color castings metals and more. Naturally, with the "downsizing" the number of enterprises increased significantly. By the way, another interesting point: for example, of the eight enterprises of Daimler-Benz, the tanks were assembled on only one. The rest were engaged in the production of aircraft engines, automobiles and other products.

It is curious to provide data on the number of workers involved in tank production. For example, at MAN's factory as of 1 in March 1945, 5448 people were involved in the manufacture of “panthers”, of which 124 held various positions in the administration, 841 in the auxiliary production, 3983 produced various units and assemblies of the “Panthers” and 500 assembly of tanks.

Of the 5448 people, 5023 were men (2719 were foreigners) and 425 women (230 did not know German). Work went on around the clock, in two shifts of 12 hours.

The MAN plant was not the largest among the German enterprises engaged in the production of tanks. But for comparison, in 1944, the smallest plant out of four that produced T-34 (No. 183, No. 112 “Red Sormovo” and No. 174), factory No. 174 in Omsk, worked 14 thousand people.


The assembly shop for tank fighter tanks “Hetzer” from Skoda in Pilsen after the bombing of American aircraft. 1945 year. At this enterprise, only armored case production was carried out, and the Hetzer was assembled at the Skoda plant in Königratz (German name of the city Hradec Králové) (NM)


Corps of tanks "Panther" Ausf. G at the factory of the company Ruhrstahl in the city of Hattingen. The photo was taken after the enterprise was captured by the Allied forces in the spring of 1945. Please note that the enclosures were assembled on special tilters (NM)



Heavy tank "Royal Tiger", shot down in the area of ​​Budapest. February 1945 of the year. This machine was supposed to remain in production in 1945 too.


October 4 1944, the so-called “crisis” tank production program is adopted. Its main task was to reduce the range of products, as well as the possible simplification and cheapening of the production of armored vehicles. As a result, it was decided: to leave in production only three types of tracked vehicles - the Hetzer, the Panther and the Royal Tiger. The release of the chassis Pz.III and Pz.1V was supposed to stop, and all the released capacity to switch to the manufacture of three approved types of tanks and SPG on their base.

In November, 1944, the company Kshrr proposed a number of conceptual developments, in which it proposed to strengthen the armament of combat vehicles in production. It was assumed that this can be done by minimal improvements.

The company sent draft designs to the inspector general of the tank forces, who, in turn, handed them over to the tank weapon test department (WaPruf 6). 20 January 1945, the discussion of the proposed options. The military believed that the idea of ​​the Kshrr company was only to reinforce the weapons with the existing armor protection. Representatives of the department of tests of tank weapons believed that it was also necessary to strengthen and armor. With the most rough calculations, it was clear that the mass of machines would increase, which would require reinforcement of the suspension and a number of other components and assemblies, and, consequently, the restructuring of production.

Of the projects proposed by the Krupp, several options aroused the greatest interest. One of them is the installation of turret from tank Pz.IV on the “Herzer” chassis. Despite the seeming attractiveness, the tank armament test department rejected this development - the 16-ton Hetzer already had a mass limit, and further increasing it would have required reinforcing the suspension, a more powerful engine and transmission. I also did not find support for the installation option in the “quadruple” turret instead of the 75-mm cannon of the reactive 80-mm gun PAW 600.


Tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 Starr, armed with recoilless 75-mm cannon. 1944 year. It is clearly seen that the form and booking of the mask are different from the serial "Hetzer" shown in the adjacent photo.


The design of the 75-mm Cannon 42 cannon on the Jagdpanzer 38 chassis (with a rear combat compartment) was approved, especially since production of the Jagdpanzer IV / 70 with similar weapons based on the Quartet was to be discontinued. At the same time, the military noted that the transfer of the fighting compartment to the “Het-tsera” stern will require a serious rework of the vehicle, and strengthening its armor will increase the mass to 18 tons. As a result, the chassis will be heavily overloaded.

Kshrr’s proposal to create a tank destroyer on the Panther chassis armed with an 128-mm cannon, the same as on Jagdtigre, did not receive approval. In the proposed version, the combat compartment was located in the rear of the hull, which required a serious redesign of the base chassis. In addition, preliminary calculations showed that the mass of 128-mm Jagdan-tera will be at least 51 tons, which would undoubtedly have a negative effect on the mobility and reliability of the machine.

Also rejected the option "Yagdtigra" with a more powerful X / NUMX-mm gun L / 128 (with a barrel length of 66 calibers). And the proposed projects on the Pz.IV chassis (with the installation of the “narrow” tower from “Panther” Ausf.F) were not considered at all in connection with the impending cessation of production of the base chassis.

However, in their conclusion, representatives of the Tank Armament Testing Department (WaPruf 6) wrote that the final decision on this matter remains with the leadership of the Army Armaments Directorate. But the latter Krupp proposals did not find support. The fact is that by this time the program for the production of armored vehicles already existed, although not fully developed.

Consider the appearance of what kind of combat vehicles could have been expected in 1945, according to the "crisis" program of production of tanks.


Tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 (t) "Hetzer", front view. In 1945, this machine was supposed to be replaced by another -Jagdpanzer38 D


Jagdpanzer 38 STARR

Back in 1943, the engineers at Kshrr and Rheinmetall-Borsig began work on designing recoilless guns to arm tanks and self-propelled guns. The advantages of such artillery systems were obvious - a reduction in production, an increase in the internal volume of the combat vehicle and mobile ammunition. The main task that was required to solve in the manufacture of such a gun is how to extinguish the recoil in the production of a shot.

In the spring of 1944 of the year, Alkett manufactured a prototype of a StuK L / 75 48-mm cannon without a recoil device, which was installed in a Jagdpanzer 38 tank destroyer. To compensate for the recoil, the gun had a rigid attachment - the recoil force was transmitted directly to the body of the self-propelled gun. The trials began in May, and continued intermittently until September 1944. The machine with such an artillery system received the designation Jagdpanzer 38 Starr (Starr - "hard" or "fixedly fixed").


General view of the Jagdpanzer 38 Starr with 75-mm recoilless gun. 1944 year



Top view of a Tatra 103 diesel engine installed in a Jagdpanzer 38 Starr (NM)


In addition to the small pointing angles of the gun, the installation also revealed other shortcomings: when firing, a sight flew off from the mount, other details broke. And the power of bestowal

The flywheel through the horizontal flywheel turned out to be so big that the gunner, who held the flywheel at the moment of the shot, could not move his hand for two days. Left much to be desired and accuracy of shooting at distances 500 and 1000 meters.

Nevertheless, representatives of the artillery armament test units (WaPruf 4), as well as sights and optical devices (WaPruf 8) of the ground forces control armors, gave a positive conclusion about this artillery system, recommending to modify its design and begin serial production of such weapons. As a result, the weapons department issued an order to manufacture a batch of 100 recoilless 75-mm StuK L / 48 cannons, which were planned to be installed on the Hetzer tank destroyer.

The tests of Alkett’s second prototype of a recoilless rifle, carried out in September by 1944, showed that, despite the introduction of a number of changes in its design, the artillery system was not suitable for combat use. To solve the problem, Rheinmetall-Borsig engineers were involved, who conducted special studies and made a number of changes to the design of the gun. First of all, they altered the lifting and turning mechanism, as a result of which it was possible to significantly reduce the effect of recoil force on the flywheels of guidance. The sight setting was changed - now it did not fail when firing, as it was before.


Jagdpanzer 38 Starr tank destroyer with 75-mm recoilless cannon, rear view. In addition to the new gun, this machine received a Tatra 103 diesel engine with 220l power. c, for which cooling an extra ventilation hood (NM) was installed


In addition, the attachment mechanism of the gun in the front hull sheet was changed from gimbal to ball. The result was a fully functional artillery system, which in December 1944 was successfully tested. In March, 1945, a prototype Jagdpanzer 38 Starr with a modified gun entered the test at the Ber-ka test site, after which the machine had to be demonstrated to the head of the Army Armaments Directorate General L Eebue and then Hitler.

In December, 1944 - January 1945, the company VMM manufactured ten Jagdpanzer 38 Starr tank fighter jets of the so-called “zero” series. In February, 1945 was issued an order for the first industrial batch of Jagdpanzer 38 Starr from 100 machines, but until the end of the war only four cars were collected. Thus, the total release of the Jagdpanzer 38 Starr was 15 pieces, including the prototype.


Cutting the frontal armor plate and mounting the gun in the serial Hetzer (left) and Jagdpanzer 38 Starr (right)


The prototype Jagdpanzer 38 Starr, who was on the Burke training ground, was blown up by Hitler’s command as the allied forces of 23 march 1945 approached. Serial vehicles entered the tank school in Mylovice, but did not participate in the battles. After the war, ten of them were briefly used by the Czechoslovak army, after which they were converted into ordinary “Hetzer”.

By decision of the Army Ground Forces Command, in 1945, it was planned to equip a new tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 D with recoilless guns (detailed story about it below). To this end, in addition to developing the StuN L / 75 X-mm Knee-Responsive Cannon, Rheinmetall designed other kick-down gun systems - 48-mm KwK L / 75 and 70-mm StuH 105. In addition to the Jagdpanzer 42 D, the option of installing such “boxless trailers” on Ausf Panther tanks was also considered. F, for which the firm Kshrr developed 38-mm and 75-mm tools.

The prototype Jagdpanzer 38 Starr, in addition to the recoilless gun, differed from the serial "Hetzer" and the power plant. By car, we installed a Tatra 103 diesel engine with a power 220 HP, developed by Tatra in 1943 year for the German heavy armored vehicles of the Sd series. Kfz. 234. This engine was also intended to be used as a power plant on the new tank destroyer Jagdpanzer 38 D.
Author:
Articles from this series:
German tank industry to 1945 year
Infrared devices for German tanks
Modernization of the "Royal Tiger", 1945 year
Tanks "Panther" in 1945 year
"Waffentragers"
Jagdpanzer 38D tank destroyer
German anti-aircraft tanks
Small tank destroyers of Germany
E series tanks
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  1. Bongo
    Bongo 16 December 2013 08: 40
    +7
    After the 1943 year, when the German troops finally lost the strategic initiative, virtually the entire German development and production program became defensive.
    Tanks "Tiger" and "Panther" had a pronounced "anti-tank" direction. Mobility and maneuverability have been sacrificed in favor of ride, security and firepower. In fact, these were tank destroyers with guns in their turrets. It is the defensive concept that explains the fact that at the end of the war, the number of tank destroyers produced exceeded the production of tanks.
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 16 December 2013 11: 32
      +4
      The terms of reference for the Tiger was drawn up in that way back in the 41st year, and he went into the series in the 42nd. It was never designed as an "anti-tank" one, it was created as a vehicle for breaking through defense, saturated with anti-tank equipment. But the Panther is already yes, a pronounced anti-tank propensity ...
      1. Sour
        Sour 16 December 2013 13: 52
        +4
        Quote: Amphitious
        created as a defense breakthrough machine,

        It is rather doubtful, given the low high-explosive action of the 88-mm shell, even in the HE version. For a breakthrough tank at that time, a larger caliber of guns was asking. At least 105 mm. Guns of this caliber in Germany were then produced, both for the Wehrmacht and for the Kriegsmarine.
        "Tiger" was created as a multipurpose tank for all occasions. On a clean, specialized breakthrough tank (like the IS-2), he did not pull.
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 16 December 2013 14: 17
          0
          No, the 88-mm very powerful gun for its time was, in 41-42 years. Did any of the bands have more? (with the exception of KV-2) I say, the Germans were very pleased with the 88-mm OFS for the bunkers in France.
          The tiger had a relatively high speed, good maneuverability for its mass, and most importantly - evenly distributed ballistic reservation.
          1. Kars
            Kars 16 December 2013 14: 30
            +1
            Quote: Amphitious
            No, the 88-mm very powerful gun for its time was, in 41-42 years. Did any of the bands have more?

            Something the Germans created self-propelled guns with 105 mm howitzer.

            Quote: Amphitious
            I say, the Germans were very pleased with the 88-mm OFS on the pillboxes in France

            Most likely they were satisfied not with shells but with accuracy.

            But when firing at French and English tanks with anti-shell projection, a good efficiency of 88 mm flask was noted 18
            1. loft79
              loft79 16 December 2013 15: 23
              0
              Good afternoon, Kars. On one forum I came across such a photo and said that the disc is more than 37mm. I rummaged in the internet, rummaged, but I did not find a reliable source. Maybe you know what kind of photo?
              1. Kars
                Kars 16 December 2013 15: 49
                +3
                I don’t know. But a piece of the projectile is clearly more than 37 mm in diameter.
                1. vomag
                  vomag 16 December 2013 16: 37
                  +2
                  the photo was taken after 43 or in 43 there is an assumption that at 76 ml at 37 it doesn’t pull
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 16 December 2013 16: 51
                    +6
                    Quote: vomag
                    photo taken after43 or 43rd

                    The date does not matter here. In the photo the signature is NS-37 and this is an air gun for IL-2
                    but it’s still too big a blank. And it looks more like it was just inserted into the hole.
                    1. loft79
                      loft79 16 December 2013 18: 07
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      NS-37 and this is an air gun for IL-2

                      There, the weapons of Il-2, Lagg-3, Yak-3T were discussed (Tundra of the same laughing)
                      1. loft79
                        loft79 16 December 2013 18: 08
                        0
                        + more photos .......................
                      2. Bongo
                        Bongo 16 December 2013 18: 33
                        +2
                        What was in nature such a Yak-3T fighter?
                      3. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 16 December 2013 18: 38
                        +1
                        Was http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak3t.html
                      4. Bongo
                        Bongo 17 December 2013 04: 37
                        +2
                        Serial? I'm talking about the fact that on the Yak-9T after firing pipelines and seals were destroyed. And it was much more durable compared to the Yak-3 aircraft.
                      5. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 17 December 2013 15: 01
                        +4
                        Quote: Bongo
                        I'm talking about the fact that on the Yak-9T, pipelines and seals were destroyed after the shooting. And it was much more durable compared to the Yak-3 aircraft.

                        Similar cases occurred in two cases:
                        1. With poor-quality welding of the frame of the motor compartment, and the fuselage as a whole.
                        2. In the case of attempts to use guns of caliber 37 mm and higher (there were attempts to put 45 mm). The strength of the motor compartment frame was calculated using a standard 22 mm cannon. Essentially, the recoil force exceeded the calculated one. And the increased rigidity of the frame invariably led to an increase in the weight of the aircraft, with all the ensuing consequences.
                      6. zyablik.olga
                        zyablik.olga 17 December 2013 16: 10
                        +5
                        Article about the Soviet air cannons from 37-mm and above.

                        http://topwar.ru/31818-car-pushki-sovetskoy-aviacii.html
      2. amigo1969
        amigo1969 16 December 2013 16: 02
        0
        Interesting photo! Tank experts - comment !!
    2. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 16 December 2013 20: 44
      0
      ------ Something the Germans created self-propelled guns with 105 mm howitzer .------
      There were also 150-mm assault self-propelled guns in a limited series, StuIG 33, fought in Stalingrad, 12 in the 177th division. And the 105-mm StuH 42 and 150-mm Brumbars made their debut on Kursk, in the summer of the 43rd, and this is an SPG and not a tank. Tell me the tank as of the 42nd year, with the equivalent of a Tiger gun in the power of the OFS.
      1. Kars
        Kars 16 December 2013 21: 04
        +1
        Quote: Amphitious
        Call me a tank as of the 42nd year, with a Tiger equivalent gun in the OFS power

        And let me ask you to name a tank with an equivalent to a Tiger gun for armor penetration? And why does a breakthrough defense tank have such a high initial speed and flat trajectory?
        Quote: Amphitious
        There were 150 mm assault self-propelled guns

        were but 88 mm assault sau for some reason was not.
  2. Sour
    Sour 16 December 2013 14: 31
    +2
    When the IS-2 was being designed, the designers proposed a 100-mm naval gun or the former 107-mm divisional cannon. The tankers unanimously declared that these calibers were not suitable, that the 107 mm was suitable for firing at wood and earth points, but even for weakly concrete or at least reinforced with bricks and stones this caliber was not suitable. In general, to suppress firing points, you need not so much an initial speed (this is necessary to pierce armor), but above all a blasting action. The Germans initially did not plan to use the Tiger to break through fortified areas (however, they rarely encountered such tasks on the Eastern Front), so they did not create a breakthrough tank.
    The main disadvantage of the "Tiger" was the prohibitive cost. I said about this below. And already because of this, he was not suitable for a protracted war. The outcome of the war was decided by tanks like the T-34 or "Sherman", which could be stamped a lot, and which were quickly mastered even by hastily trained crews, and were repaired in the field.
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 December 2013 14: 57
      +1
      Quote: Sour
      The main disadvantage of the "Tiger" was the prohibitive cost.

      I don’t understand how money can influence something in a country waging a total war.
      In the USSR, the tank cost like 27--15 bottles of vodka in the ..black ..market
      Maybe it’s more a matter of laboriousness? Human hours, machine hours?
      1. Sour
        Sour 16 December 2013 15: 06
        +4
        Quote: Kars
        I don’t understand how money can influence something in a country waging a total war.
        In the USSR, the tank cost like 27--15 bottles of vodka in the ..black ..market
        Maybe it’s more a matter of laboriousness? Human hours, machine hours?

        You have a relationship with money, like cut paper.
        You are not alone in your view of money. I constantly come across those who, for example, call the dollar "candy wrapper". Your post is from the same series.
        Everything is measured in money. When do you come to the store for sausage, because you don’t put the machine-clock on the counter?
        1. Kars
          Kars 16 December 2013 15: 09
          +1
          Quote: Sour
          When do you come to the store for sausage, because you don’t put the machine-clock on the counter?

          And now that the country is waging a total war?
          and in fact the T-34 cost from 270 to 140 thousand rubles. Veterans mentioning the money received for the damaged tanks write that they bought a bottle of vodka for 1000 rubles.
          Draw those conclusions.
          1. Sour
            Sour 16 December 2013 15: 16
            +3
            And what should I conclude? Of what?
            Even though total war, albeit not total, nobody canceled the money in Germany. Workers and engineers were not transferred to rations, they received a salary. Soldiers and officers also received it. Even the "Ostarbeiters" received some money. Germany (the same alloying components for armor) bought raw materials from Sweden for money, not for thanks. And Hungarian oil workers supplied fuel to the Germans for money, through banks (mostly Swiss). Where did you get the idea that total war involves the abolition of commodity-money relations? Is this purely your guess?
            1. Kars
              Kars 16 December 2013 15: 19
              +1
              Quote: Sour
              And what should I conclude? Of what?

              The one that you apparently just do not want to do.
              That money in countries waging a total war is cut paper.
              Quote: Sour
              I bought from Sweden for money, but not for thanks.

              But not for the Reichsmarks, but for dollars and gold.
              Quote: Sour
              . What makes you think that total war involves the abolition of commodity-money relations? Is this purely your guess?

              This is an observation of facts. As I gave an example, a tank cost 27 roll bottles of vodka. As well as barter trade, both in the USSR and at the final stage in Germany.
              1. Sour
                Sour 16 December 2013 15: 38
                +4
                Quote: Kars
                That money in countries waging a total war is cut paper.

                Complete nonsense, not even requiring a refutation.
                Quote: Kars
                But not for the Reichsmarks, but for dollars and gold.

                Who cares? Any currency can be easily converted to another. And in gold too. You say some dense things. For you, money is just paper, not a measure of the bill, not an equivalent.

                Quote: Kars
                As I gave an example, a tank cost 27 roll bottles of vodka. As well as barter trade, both in the USSR and at the final stage in Germany.

                I did not live in those days. Therefore, I will not say anything. You apparently lived. I remembered immediately only the story of my father, who at the market in 1945 was offered PPS-43 from under the floor, and not for a bottle of vodka, but for money. And the fact that the tank cost like 27 bottles of vodka, leave these nonsense to someone else. Then vodka was given to any infantryman in the amount of 100 grams per day. Also, they found a second currency.
              2. Kars
                Kars 16 December 2013 15: 48
                +1
                Quote: Sour
                Complete nonsense, not even requiring a refutation.

                Of course you can’t refute it. The T-34 tank is worth less than 10 liters of alcohol. And the card system with rations.
                Quote: Sour
                Who cares? Any currency can be easily converted to another

                Awesome.
                Quote: Sour
                Any currency can be easily converted to another

                Strange you didn’t hear that there is a freely convertible currency and not.
                Quote: Sour
                For you, money is just paper, not a measure of the bill, not an equivalent.

                For a country waging a total war of annihilation.
                Quote: Sour
                did not live in those days. Therefore, I will not say anything
                Must live at that time?
                Quote: Sour
                And the fact that the tank cost like 27 bottles of vodka, leave these nonsense to someone else. Then vodka was given to any infantryman in the amount of 100 grams per day
                Oh yes, the Soviet infantryman 100 grams a day is the best time. And is it every day issued?
                Quote: Sour
                Also, they found a second currency.
                I didn’t find the currency, but a comparison. A loaf of bread cost 400 or 500 rubles.
              3. Sour
                Sour 16 December 2013 15: 59
                +1
                Quote: Kars

                Strange you didn’t hear that there is a freely convertible currency and not.

                Any currency has a relatively different rate. Although convertible, at least not. laughing
                You simply do not understand what currency convertibility is, just remember here about it. Your financial literacy is zero. Maybe. harshly put it, but that's a fact. And this is an extra argument for not discussing such complex topics.
                Quote: Kars
                And is every day issued?

                No, 100 grams per month. laughing Find and read the GKO Decree of August 22, 1941.

                Quote: Kars
                A loaf of bread cost 400 or 500 rubles.

                Contradict yourself. They just claimed that then the money was paper, but, it turns out, they could also buy bread.

                You just don’t understand what money is.

                And more: the cost of a liter of alcohol is now about 9 rubles. Then it was hardly more, if counted on gold.
                About the tank, standing like 10 liters of alcohol, tell me in another place.
                And if then the money cost nothing (as you say), then it is necessary to consider the prime cost (man and machine hours, etc.).
              4. Kars
                Kars 16 December 2013 16: 34
                +1
                Quote: Sour
                Any currency has a relatively different rate. Though convertible, though not

                But this does not mean that at that rate someone will buy it.
                Quote: Sour
                No, 100 grams per month. Find and read the GKO Decree of August 22, 1941.

                Maybe a year. And maybe just before the fight. But in fact I don’t care. 100 gr is a trifle.
                Quote: Sour
                Contradict yourself. They just claimed that then the money was paper, but, it turns out, they could also buy bread.

                So before that I said the price of vodka. And I do not contradict myself. But you should be glad that the tank cost 54 loaves of bread?)))
                Quote: Sour
                You just don’t understand what money is.

                In a country waging a TOTAL WAR to DESTROY (I’ve been repeating this for you for the third time) - I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
                Quote: Sour
                About the tank, standing like 10 liters of alcohol, tell me in another place.
                Why elsewhere? There is a T-34 tank price from 270 in 1941 to 140 in 1945, and there is a price of vodka on the black market.
                So a kilogram of black bread in 1942 was already worth 400 rubles! A kilogram of honey cost from 500 to 900 rubles. You can try to calculate what an ordinary worker could afford to buy in 1942 at 350-400 rubles a month.

                If government prices for food products on cards increased slightly, the only exception was tobacco and vodka, then prices on collective farm markets increased significantly. In the summer of 1941, a kilogram of potatoes cost 1-2 rubles, in May 1942 it was already 15. The price of meat was set at 70–180 rubles. Thirteen-year-old Veniamin Belgorodsky, who received 90 rubles of "student", recalled that in the second year of the war, a loaf of bread in the bazaar cost 300 rubles and the same bucket of potatoes.
          2. iConst
            iConst 18 December 2013 00: 57
            0
            Quote: Sour
            And the fact that the tank cost like 27 bottles of vodka, these nonsense

            Quote: Kars

            That money in countries waging a total war is cut paper.

            You are both right in your own way.
            In such a situation, it is necessary to compare not the "market" value of this or that product, but the cost price in terms of costs.

            Well, compare the production cycle of the tank and alcohol.

            The fact that vodka was so expensive in the rear is quite understandable.
            Alcohol, in addition to the vulgar domestic use by the civilian population, was required in many places: people's commissars, medicine, production ... In general, for a "citizen" it was considered a luxury ...
    2. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 16 December 2013 17: 01
      +7
      Quote: Kars
      and in fact the T-34 cost from 270 to 140 thousand rubles. Veterans mentioning the money received for the damaged tanks write that they bought a bottle of vodka for 1000 rubles.

      Good afternoon, Kars!
      Zero when dividing "forgot" ... Dividing 270 by 000, we get 1000. "Bottles of vodka".
      Only in the period of "war communism" did the Land of Soviets allow itself "to give up the monetary equivalent of the product produced and the labor expended. Fixed prices and fixed tariffs with wages are typical toys of the planned economy, especially during the war years. All the more total, for survival.
      German industry, under the leadership of Speer, repeated this trick in early 1942, including the maximum possible centralization of non-state enterprises that produce military equipment and equipment.
      As a result, by the end of the war, the Reichsmark had greatly lost its purchasing power.
      1. Kars
        Kars 16 December 2013 17: 11
        +3
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        The zero when dividing is "forgotten".

        that’s what the calculators were doing. I can’t count correctly in my mind. crying
        1. Deniska
          Deniska 17 December 2013 17: 50
          0
          HA .... I also noticed a catch only after fasting. Although it seems I carefully read your comments with Sour;)
    3. Deniska
      Deniska 17 December 2013 17: 44
      0
      Unfortunately, they worked for us for "workdays", while the Germans paid their workers.
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 16 December 2013 19: 47
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Maybe it’s more a matter of laboriousness? Human hours, machine hours?

    That's it. The point is in manufacturability and in the amount of scarce material, as well as in the number of man- and machine-tool hours needed for manufacturing. In addition, in performance and ability to be used for its intended purpose. For example, the P-6 "Tiger" had two types of tracks, with some (narrow) it was transported by rail, with others (wide) it was operated in the field. Agree, this is terribly inconvenient, constantly rearranging the tracks.
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 December 2013 19: 53
      +1
      Quote: bistrov.
      In addition, in performance and ability to be used as intended.

      Well, it’s better not to touch the operational ones. They coped with this.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 16 December 2013 22: 20
    0
    Did not have. because the 75-mm L / 24 "cigarette butt" on the Shtugi was quite suitable for its high-explosive action. And the 88th OFS - even more so. About armor penetration and flat trajectory - a new gun for a tank was not developed, but an existing anti-aircraft gun was installed, with minor adaptation changes for installation on a tank; while maintaining the ballistics thereof.
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 December 2013 22: 49
      +1
      Quote: Amphitious
      Did not have. because the 75-mm L / 24 "cigarette butt" on Shtugi was quite suitable for its high-explosive action

      Quote: Amphitious
      a cannon for a tank was not developed

      Well, they put the old NU very expensive, and very difficult to manufacture a cannon. When .. a cigarette .. and the first four Germans were quite satisfied, until I had to deal with the XNUMX-sided tanks. By the way, and the shells are not the cheapest.
      Quote: Amphitious
      And the 88th OFS - even more so.

      By the way, the Tiger fired the same grenade) spring) 43? With the whole KG of Amatola versus 7,5 cm Sprgr.Patr. 34 - with 0,66 Amatola
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 16 December 2013 23: 05
        0
        -------------- Well, they put the old NU very expensive, and very difficult to manufacture a cannon. When .. a cigarette lug .. and on the first four Germans quite satisfied, until I had to fight with the XNUMX-sided tanks .Yes by the way, and shells are not the cheapest .---------

        C'mon, the Germans made 88 mm FLACs during the war years, more than 20 pieces, what is the quantitative ratio of 000 Tigers?
        That's the point. Tiger-1 until the end of the war "extinguished" almost all tanks with its armor-piercing, regardless of their thick armor (it was heavier head-on with the IS-2, Sherman "Jumbo" and "Churchill"). About the cheapness of shells - from the second half of the 44th, the consumption is only 88-mm and only in air defense units close to 4 pieces per month. The Germans produced three times more explosives, twice as much gunpowder, and much more ammunition than the USSR, even with the Lend-Lease. The question of economics, as usual. Someone is rich and developed, someone is poor and lagged behind ... The Germans, unfortunately, were rich and developed, industrially and technologically.
        1. Kars
          Kars 16 December 2013 23: 48
          +1
          Quote: Amphitious
          C'mon, the Germans made 88 mm FLACs during the war years, more than 20 pieces, what is the quantitative ratio of 000 Tigers?

          And how many 75 mm infantry howitzers?
          Quote: Amphitious
          Is it quantitatively related to the 1355 Tigers?

          Yes, it’s not so small. That PAK 43 didn’t do so much, or is the tank threat so trifles? It’s good that Nashorn with Ferdinand and Yagdpanthera is not a heavy tank destroyer.
          Quote: Amphitious
          That's the point. Tiger-1 until the end of the war "extinguished" almost all tanks with its armor-piercing, regardless of their thick armor (it was heavier head-on with the IS-2, Sherman "Jumbo" and "Churchill").

          And while the Fritz was still a LITTLE))) and 88 L71 appeared))) and the Yagtigr

          Quote: Amphitious
          About the cheapness of shells - from the second half of the 44th, the consumption is only 88-mm, and only in parts of the air defense came close to 4 pieces per month.

          Something I don’t remember. Although I was not particularly interested in air defense. But there were problems with armor-piercing, especially sub-calibers.
          Quote: Amphitious
          . The Germans, unfortunately, were rich and developed, both industrially and technologically
          The victory of the Soviet Union is all the more significant, and the Allies did not make a special contribution to the main victories near Moscow 1941 and near Stalingrad.
          Quote: Amphitious
          Germans fired three times as much explosives
          By the way, why are they ersatz explosives bad?

          It’s a pity that they ignored the super high explosiveness of the 88 mm OFS that they carried on board as many as 340 grams of amatola (not the most powerful explosive by the way)
          1. Lesnik
            Lesnik 16 December 2013 23: 51
            0
            Where there are tanks and Kars, hi hi kars whom today? angry
          2. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 17 December 2013 01: 02
            +1
            Lol, Kars. Spare the remnants of your "authority"))
            http://dzromon.narod.ru/gun/push/88-mm.htm
            1. Kars
              Kars 17 December 2013 02: 51
              +1
              Quote: Amphitious
              Lol, Kars. Spare the remnants of your "authority"))

              Never spared anything.

              Quote: Amphitious
              http://dzromon.narod.ru/gun/push/88-mm.htm

              And what exactly do you want to highlight there?


              And while by the way I don’t notice any special problems. And you still need to prove that every 7 out of 10 German tanks fought against the Allies.
            2. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 17 December 2013 12: 32
              +1
              And what exactly do you want to highlight there?

              The fact that your "carried on board as much as 340 grams of amatol (not the most powerful BB by the way)" is an outright lie or blatant illiteracy.
              The fact that the 88mm fragmentation grenade is 4.5 caliber long, stamped, with a screw-bottom 8.8 cm Sprgr. L / 4,5 (kz.) For kwk 36 contains either 700 or 900 grams of TNT. For example, the 85mm for the D-5 contained only 740 grams of explosive, so the German 88mm for the Tiger -1 is at least 20% more powerful. You lied twice in the same sentence, didn't you? Are you going to argue with elementary arithmetic? And yet, if they had bothered to get acquainted with the history of the creation of the Tiger, they would have discovered that the concept of the tank began to be worked out back in 37, when there was no question of any "special" anti-tank inclinations.

              ----- And while by the way I don’t notice any special problems. And you still need to prove that every 7 out of 10 German tanks fought against the Allies .-----

              I have already shown and proved. With specific numbers and sources. Nothing was heard from you except obscene mumble, with all due respect. and I wrote to you in that topic three days ago, the last post is after me. I received no response.
            3. Kars
              Kars 17 December 2013 13: 49
              +2
              Quote: Amphitious
              That 88-mm 4.5-caliber fragmentation grenade, stamped, with a screw-in bottom of 8.8 cm Sprgr. L / 4,5 (kz.) For kwk 36 contains either 700 or 900 grams of TNT

              )))) wow I also exaggerated when I said kg)) even in your table it is given
              TNT cast without a case and a smoke bomb No. 8 or cast ammotol (40/60) without a case and a smoke bomb No. 8
              And by the end of the war, Amatol probably pre-dominated)) I heard by the way what happened and was diluted with salt))
              Quote: Amphitious
              For example, 85-mm for the D-5

              why do I need an example of a Soviet shell? when do you need to compare it with a German one? or were you going to equip the Fritz with Soviet guns? so don’t dodge))))) here
              Quote: Kars
              7,5 cm Sprgr.Patr. 34 - with 0,66 Amatola

              so in your opinion it turns out that only 240 gr))

              Quote: Amphitious
              gets acquainted with the history of the creation of the Tiger, then they would discover that the concept of the tank began to be worked out back in the 37th year, when there was no question of any "special" anti-tank inclinations

              if you had familiarized yourself with the history of the creation of the Tiger, you would have understood that the final Tiger is not at all similar to what they tried to design in 1937-40
              http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/vk3001_3601.php
              On September 9, 1938, Henschel received permission to continue developing a new medium tank as a continuation of the DW project. Work on further development of the DW-VK3001 (H) has begun. Two similar prototypes were created: light (32 tons) VK3001 (H) and heavy (40 tons) VK3601 (H). The bodies of both prototypes were structurally reminiscent of the Panzer IV


              Quote: Amphitious
              I have already shown and proved.

              No, they haven’t proved it. So far it’s clearly seen that there are more German tanks on the Soviet front. And the ratio of 3 and 7 isn’t close.

              Quote: Amphitious
              Nothing was heard from you but obscene mumble, with all due respect

              Compared to your incompetence, everything is clear. You can’t even prove your nonsense about the fact that German tanks were destroyed faster on the western front. Even your beloved panzerlag knocked you over. You didn’t even think that the tanks in it are being reformed and formed on the territory of Germany to the western front.
              Quote: Amphitious
              last post after me

              Here it is
              Thank you, interesting signs, but for me they are nothing new.
              How do they refute my claim in any way?
              The irretrievable losses of the Wehrmacht’s BTT in the Winter and Spring Campaign of 1944 in the East - 5169 tanks and self-propelled guns, in the Summer-Autumn Campaign - 5423 tanks, self-propelled guns, total 10592 units.
              Everything fits perfectly.

              What's the matter? Where are the Wehrmacht losses in the WEST for the SAME period? What is there to RESPOND to?
            4. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 17 December 2013 14: 14
              0
              Where are you looking, literate? This is what it says:

              88-mm
              4.5-caliber fragmentation grenade, stamped, with a screw-in bottom
              8.8 cm Sprgr. L / 4,5 (kz.)
              (fig. 106)
              Equipment:
              Pressed trotyl in a cardboard case (used only in grenades with a screw-in bottom or molten TNT without a case (oh, 698 and 0,9 kg, respectively).
              900 grams of trotyl, a miracle.


              88-mm
              4.5-caliber fragmentation grenade, stamped, whole-shell 8.8 cm Sprgr. L / 4,5 (kz.) Pr. Zugz. contains, I quote:
              Cast Ammotol (40/60) without case (0.900 kg.). 900 GRAM OF AMMOTOL.

              ----- Why do I need a Soviet shell for example? -----
              That's it, why do you need it? The 88 mm OFS of the Tiger is 20% more powerful than the 85 mm of the Soviet OFS for the T-34-85. At the beginning of the war, 41-42, as the Tiger was planned, the 88-mm OFS obviously seemed more than sufficient. As well as the armor-piercing action of the gun.

              DW - VK3001 (H) stands for Durchbruchswagen. A question to a local "expert": what is Durchbruchswagen in German?

              You even know how to read ... My last post, here it is:
              "Friend, you radically contradict yourself. Even if they surrendered there more, does this mean that the tanks were not lost? We are talking about irrecoverable losses - regardless of whether the tanks were destroyed in battles, abandoned during a retreat without hot water or at rembases - this is is called irrevocable loss.
              I wrote well-known and undisputed data - the Germans lost in the summer-autumn campaign on the Eastern Front - 5423 tanks and self-propelled guns. Of these, the peak of losses is the month of July, 2211 irrevocable cars, which leaves about 5 thousand for the remaining 3,2 months, irrevocable cars, or 770 cars per month on average.
              You do not know elementary and well-known things, but with a smart look you accuse your opponent of lying. Not good.
              Considering that in the second half of the year the number of cars in the East varied in approximately the same range, plus or minus a couple of hundreds of cars, the monthly non-return is exactly equal to the number of replenishment - 750-800 cars per month. Total production for the second half of the 44th - 10 tanks and self-propelled guns. In the 000th - another 45.
              I graphically cited evidence from Ron Clages, the auror of the fundamental work "Trail of Tigers", who, using, among other things, Walter Spielberger, the largest specialized authority on German armored vehicles, Zetterling and Jents, showed in detail how much and where Western front. Let's put the question like this: Kleages gives either incorrect data or lies. Yes or no?"
            5. Kars
              Kars 17 December 2013 14: 43
              +3
              Quote: Amphitious
              900 grams of trotyl, miracle

              What a MIRACLE? As much as 900 grams? And what with a screwed bottom is the main ammunition? And does not cancel the presence of the remaining ammunition with amatol
              88-mm
              4.5-caliber fragmentation grenade, stamped, whole-body
              8.8 cm Sprgr. L / 4,5 (kz.) Pr. Zugz.
              Cast Ammotol (40/60) without case))) What's next? Miracle? Which one is more common?
              And this does not negate that the mass of explosives is only 240 g more than 75 mm OFS Fritz.
              Quote: Amphitious
              That's it, why do you need it? The 88 mm OFS of the Tiger is 20% more powerful than the 85 mm of the Soviet OFS for the T-34-8

              And the question is why the Germans put an 88 mm anti-aircraft gun on the Tiger, and they have no special relation to Soviet tanks. Besides, its -88 mm gun was put precisely for anti-tank combat)))
              Quote: Amphitious
              The 88mm OFS obviously seemed more than adequate

              But this in no way relates to your ravings about the influence of the storming of the Maginot line, and the designation of the Tiger tank as an assault-breakthrough defense.
              Quote: Amphitious
              . Even if they gave up there more, does that mean the tanks weren’t lost?

              This means that even with THIS, there was no ultrafast destruction of German armored vehicles on the Western Front. This is what the tables proved.

              Quote: Amphitious
              Of these, the peak of losses is the month of July, 2211 irrevocable cars, which leaves about 5 thousand for the remaining 3,2 months, irrevocable cars, or 770 cars per month on average.

              I repeat once again that such a concept as average cannot be considered.
              Quote: Amphitious
              You do not know elementary and well-known things, but with a smart look you accuse your opponent of lying.
              I don’t know why you wrote it and how it’s sideways here, I really don’t know.

              Quote: Amphitious
              I have graphically cited evidence from Ron Clages, Aurora of the seminal Trail of Tigers

              You brought nothing, and continue to lie.

              Quote: Amphitious
              Let's put the question like this: Kleages gives either incorrect data or lies. Yes or no?"

              Third, you personally brought something.
              You can refute by showing how many armored vehicles were sent to the Western Front in November 1944 and how much the total there was. And the same to the Eastern Front and if there is your ratio of 7 and 3 then you are not lying.
              Quote: Amphitious
              I wrote well-known and undisputed data - Germans' losses in the summer-autumn campaign on the Eastern Front
              You were asked to show losses on the WESTERN front for similar periods - and you began to fool around.
            6. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 17 December 2013 16: 31
              +1
              ---- Was the Czech Republic bombed? Before it became clear that it was leaving the USSR? ----

              This is what you wrote first.
              When you realized that you screwed up, you wrote this:

              ----- And of course 417 tons of bombs (if there were any) with the accuracy that gave high-altitude strikes, this is not serious .-----
              Having understood, using the example of Alquette, that they screwed up again and that almost 800 tons dumped at the Czech plants is still serious (there were 3 raids, 417 in the first and 375 tons in the others, respectively), you wrote this:
              ----- What does Alket have to do with the bombing of Czechoslovakia? ----
              That is, roughly speaking, they wagged jo ... th.

              ---- And in fact it only proves that the Allied bombing was not as effective as some people think .-----
              According to USSBS, the total shortage of armored vehicles as a result of bombing from the end of the 43rd to the end was 35%. In other words, for the 44th year, for example, not 19 tanks and self-propelled guns would be produced, but 000-25. Is this a lot or a little?

              Once again I repeat that such a thing as an average can not be considered .---- You have not brought anything, and continue to lie .-----
              Could it be hysteria like a child? Let's take a look at Jents.
              In all tank, motorized divisions and heavy tank battalions of the Eastern Front, by the summer of 44 there were:
              176 pieces (148 combat-ready); 603 Fours (484 combat-ready); 313 Panthers (238 combat capable),
              298 Tigers (233 combat-ready) - a total of 1390 tanks and self-propelled guns, of which 1103 are combat-ready. For the division and battalions it looks like this:

              13th Pz.D .: ____________3 (2) Pz IV
              10 Pz.Gr.D: ____________ 10 (9) StuG III
              3 Pz.D _______________ 19 (12) PzIV
              23 Pz.D _______________ 10 (10) Pz IV, 52 (26) Panther
              24 Pz.D ._______________ 16 (15) StuG III, 40 (36) Pz IV
              Pz.Gr.D. GD____________14 (8) Pz IV, 55 (30) Panther, 20 (12) Tiger
              3 SS-Pz.D Totenkopf _____ 28 (23) Pz IV, 8 (2) Tiger
              14 Pz.D ._______________ 3 (2) StuG III, 35 (1) Pz IV
              17 Pz.D _______________ 36 (28) Pz IV

              Ha "Northern Ukraine":
              7 Pz.D ._______________ 47 (34) Pz IV
              s.Pz.Abt.509 __________ 46 (37) Tiger
              1 Pz.D .______________ 34 (33) Pz IV, 26 (23) Panther
              20.Pz.Gr.Div .___________ 0
              8 Pz.D ._______________ 11 (10) Pz IV, 80 (73) Panther
              s.Pz.Abt.506 ___________ 41 (36) Tiger
              s.Pz.Abt.507 ___________ 47 (45) Tiger
              4.Pz.Div .______________ 70 (68) Pz IV
              5 Pz.D ________________ 59 (57) Pz -IV
              s.Pz.Abt.505 ____________ 42 (36) Tiger
              5 SS-Pz.D "Wiking" _______ 21 (20) Stug, 27 (27) Pz IV, 78 (77) Panther
              16 Pz.D .________________ 19 (12) StuG, 48 (43) Pz IV, 10 (4) Panther

              GA "Center"
              20.Pz.D ________________ 56 (49) Pz IV
              25.Pz.Gr. Div. ___________46 (41) StuG
              PZ.Gr.Div.FHH __________ 17 (6) StuG, 17 (8) Pz IV
              s.Pz.Abt. 501 ____________ 37 (29) Tiger

              GA "North":
              12 Pz.D .________________ 49 (35) Pz IV
              s.Pz.Abt.502 _____________ 57 (33) Tiger
              11.SS-Pz.Gr.Div .__________ 12 (5) Panther

              That is, the armored and motorized divisions in the East are extremely weak by the summer of the 44th. However, individual units, such as the Shtug-brigades and tank destroyer divisions, were not taken into account here. For the entire month of June, the Eastern Front received
              StuGs = 176
              Panzer IV = 603
              Panzer V (Panther) = 313
              Panzer VI (Tiger) = 298
              Total 512 tanks and self-propelled guns. Whereas the West - 1817 tanks and self-propelled guns. So much for the successful Bagration, and the collapsed front in the East.

              According to the panzerlag on June 15, the 44th, on the entire Eastern Front there are almost exactly 4000 tanks and self-propelled guns (combat-ready, under repair, on the way).
              Production from June 44th to March 45th - 15,6 tanks and self-propelled guns. Of these, nearly 10 were sent to the Western Front and at least 000 to Italy.
              Arithmetic for a third grader, but Kars, obviously, is not able to overpower her. Maybe someone will help him?
            7. Kars
              Kars 17 December 2013 16: 58
              +2
              Quote: Amphitious
              Production from June 44th to March 45th - 15,6 tanks and self-propelled guns. Of these, nearly 10 were sent to the Western Front and at least 000 to Italy.

              Where is it visible that 10 were sent to the WESTERN front?
              Quote: Amphitious
              Total 512 tanks and self-propelled guns. Whereas the West - 1817 tanks and self-propelled guns

              Strange at your ratio of 3 to 7 should be
              Arithmetic for the second grade.
              699 and 1630
              does not match))) while we still need to know how many tanks at that time were on the Western Front on the Eastern 1390
              add 699 (every third of the delivery - and by means of simple mathematical calculations, YOU must prove that there were 1630 tanks on the Western Front after every arrival of 7 (every 4875) and can you self-propelled guns
          3. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 17 December 2013 16: 44
            0
            For clarity, I can show the Panthers in the East, from the summer of 44 to the end of the war. As of specific dates in 1944, the presence of "Panthers" on the Eastern Front .:

            31 May = 292
            15Sep = 728
            30 Sep = 721
            31 Oct = 672
            15 Nov = 658
            30 Nov = 625
            15 Dec = 737
            30 Dec = 726
            1945
            15 Jan = 707
            15 Mar = 762

            Top-ups for the same period:
            Jun = 238
            Jul = 375
            Aug = 283
            Sep = 205
            Oct = 40
            Nov = 60
            Dec = 238
            Jan45 = 108
            Feb = 495
            Mar = 60
            Apr = 62

            I can give the same thing for the Tigers-1
            Availability:
            31 May = 307
            15Sep = 267
            30 Sep = 249
            31 Oct = 278
            15 Nov = 278
            30 Nov = 246
            15 Dec = 268
            30 Dec = 261
            1945
            15 Jan = 199
            15 Mar = 208
            Top-ups:
            Jan = 88
            Feb = 82
            Mar = 62
            Apr = 56
            May = 63
            June = 62
            July = 29
            Aug = 28
            Sep = 12
            Oct = 0
            Nov = 0
            Dec = 0
            That is, the last 12 Tigers-1 were delivered to the Eastern Front in September 44th, but their number is kept at a relatively equal level, a fantastically tenacious machine. Now compare, wise guy, with what speed Panthers and Tigers on the Western Front ended, according to the dynamics in the time of availability / supply of replenishment, and no longer flood in vain.
          4. Kars
            Kars 17 December 2013 16: 50
            +1
            Quote: Amphitious
            But was the Czech Republic bombed? Before it became clear that it was leaving the USSR? ----

            This is what you wrote first


            Well, it’s not surprising that what you wrote only confirmed that Czechoslovakia was not bombed as such, and even more so TOTALLY. Several episodic strikes. If they dropped 1400 tons on Alket, and didn’t really destroy it, then what about 400 tons in 2 times, and td
            Quote: Amphitious
            You wrote this:
            ----- What does Alket have to do with the bombing of Czechoslovakia? ----
            That is, roughly speaking, they wagged jo ... th.
            Yes you zavilyali.Alket and Czechoslovakia in your opinion are NEARBY?

            Quote: Amphitious
            According to USSBS, the total shortage of armored vehicles as a result of bombing from the end of the 43rd to the end was 35%. In other words, for the 44th year, for example, not 19 tanks and self-propelled guns would be produced, but 000-25. Is this a lot or a little?
            This is a theoretical calculation and nothing more.

            Quote: Amphitious
            Once again I repeat that such a thing as an average can not be considered .---- You have not brought anything, and continue to lie .-----

            Well, yes, the average temperature in a hospital is very important information)))
          5. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 17 December 2013 17: 17
            +1
            A big request, do not write anything more about the bombing, okay?
        2. Kars
          Kars 17 December 2013 17: 00
          +1
          Quote: Amphitious
          Dec = 238

          and therefore, do you think that at the same moment the Germans sent 555 Panther tanks to the western front?
        3. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 17 December 2013 17: 16
          0
          What are you talking about?
          What are 555 tanks? Where does this figure come from?
        4. Kars
          Kars 17 December 2013 17: 23
          +2
          Quote: Amphitious
          What are 555 tanks? Where does this figure come from?

          Based on your sacred


          ,,,, every 7 tanks out of 10 went to the western front ..,
          Quote: Amphitious
          A big request, do not write anything more about the bombing, okay?

          Why is it suddenly? You totally bombed Czechoslovakia)))
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 17 December 2013 16: 57
    +1
    Well, and about your question about the units on vacation and replenishment and related to the West. According to Yents, there were 1 Panthers in the West on June 44 of the 663th. That's right, the countdown of 1837 Panthers sent to the West goes AFTER June 1st. In his book about the Panther, it is written. These 663 Panthers were partly in the battalions, which in June or even July departed to the East. For example, the Panther battalion "Grossdeutschland", which had 79 Panthers; a battalion of the tank regiment of the 5th TD with 79 Panthers, a battalion of the tank regiment of the 19th TD, 79 Panthers; departed in July.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 17: 05
    +2
    Quote: Amphitious
    True, the countdown of 1837 Panthers sent to the West,

    From up to 6000 panthers to the West, less than a third fell)))
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 17 December 2013 17: 10
    +1
    Frank trolling. From the very beginning, it has been a matter of June 44th, after the opening of the second front, and you knew that.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 17: 16
    +2
    Quote: Amphitious
    Frank trolling.

    Naturally.
    Quote: Amphitious
    since June 44th, after the opening of the second front, and you knew that.

    Well, you could subtract those Panthers who fell on the Eastern Front))

    I am personally lazy. And your nonsense is refuted by two small tablets.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 17: 16
    +1
    ________________
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 17 December 2013 17: 33
    +1
    Lol, didn’t I bring the same numbers? You think I don’t have this book? You, as they say, pee against the wind, with these signs something.
    We look at the monthly level of Panther presence there and there, the level of replenishment here and there, and we come to the obvious conclusion where the Panthers lived longer according to statistics.
    Another would be similar tablets for the "fours", Shtugs, Hetzers and others, and we would be happy.
    And by the way, the February peak at 495 Panthers is largely the tank divisions that arrived from the West to Hungary, including all five SS tank divisions that fought there.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 17: 43
    +2
    Quote: Amphitious
    We, as they say, pee against the wind, with these signs.


    )))))))
    Quote: Amphitious
    And by the way, the February peak at 475 Panthers is largely the tank divisions that arrived from the West to Hungary

    So what?
    In fact, it can be seen that there can be no question that there were more tanks on the Western Front than on the Eastern.
    Quote: Amphitious
    look monthly the level of Panther presence there and there, the level of replenishment here and there and we come to the obvious conclusion where the Panthers lived longer according to statistics.

    Well, make a tablet. And then you’re lying around. And you didn’t give anything on the availability of supplies to the western front. You probably know how to use an Excel user?
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 17 December 2013 19: 00
    +1
    Are we already nat?
    Well, come on, I don't mind, you of course "swim" often, but the man seems to be adequate, I've been watching you here for a long time. )
    No, I don’t sculpt tablets either time or desire, I won’t lie.

    ---- In fact, it can be seen that there can be no question that there were more tanks on the Western Front than on the Eastern .-----
    The number sent to the West of all tanks and self-propelled guns from June to May the 45th, including captured, radio-controlled and others is known: it is 9,887
    Here it is in the details, much more detailed than that of Jents: http://www.axishistory.com/other-aspects/equipment/145-germany-heer/heer-unsorte
    d / 3413-german-fully-tracked-vehicles-on-the-western-front-1944-1945
    This link I bring to you for the THIRD TIME.
    Excluding Italy. You are left with the simplest thing: to name a specific analogous figure sent to the East of the number of armored vehicles for the same period. "Ssetra's name, name!" It's simple. Panzerlaga displays a STATIC picture, at a given moment in time and no more, you cannot understand this in any way. If a certain Vasya gives you $ 200 a month, and me $ 100 for 10 months; but at the same time you will spend 180 a month, and I 60; then imagine, by the end of this period of 10 months, I will have significantly more money than you, 2000 versus 4000. The analogy is obvious to any sane person. Even in the dense Soviet times, there was an axiom: "The Red Army destroyed 75% of the armored vehicles of Nazi Germany." Considering Germany's resource of approximately 50 tanks and self-propelled guns, the USSR receives approximately 000 vehicles. WHERE do you think the other 35 have gone? Explain to me.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 19: 18
    +2
    Quote: Amphitious
    Are we already nat?

    I do not pay much attention to this.
    Quote: Amphitious
    No, I don’t sculpt tablets either time or desire, I won’t lie.

    Strange is your favorite pastime.
    Quote: Amphitious
    http://www.axishistory.com/other-aspects/equipment/145-germany-heer/heer-unsorte

    d / 3413-german-fully-tracked-vehicles-on-the-western-front-1944-1945

    bring and what?
    Quote: Amphitious
    The simplest thing remains for you: to name a specific similar figure sent to the East of the number of armored vehicles for the same period
    Why me? I did not name the ratio of 3 to 7
    And so it’s easier for you
    prove that no more than 4238 were sent to the Eastern Front

    Quote: Amphitious
    50 tanks and self-propelled guns, approximately 000 vehicles fall to the USSR. WHERE have the remaining 35 gone

    But what am I against? But this does not correspond to your fairy tales, if you have to match yours, then you need to look for 81.


    Quote: Amphitious
    Vasya will give you $ 200 a month, and me $ 100 for 10 months; but at the same time you will spend 180 a month, and I will 60; just imagine, by the end of this period of 10 months I will have significantly more money left than you, 2000 versus 4000.

    10 months of 100, in principle, you will not get more than 1000 in principle.

    So look for it and be the average monthly loss of tanks on the eastern and western front.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 17 December 2013 19: 28
    0
    Extra zeroes in the example, but you understand everything already.
  • Kars
    Kars 17 December 2013 19: 41
    +1
    Quote: Amphitious
    Extra zeroes in the example, but you already understood everything

    Well, I didn’t have to talk about .. the water supply .. remember)))) how quickly it responded))) and not even just zeroes. Not an example, but a crap
    And I realized what you're trying to say. But you yourself do not understand.

    There weren’t so many tanks on the Western Front before the landing, so it’s not difficult to understand that replenishment will go a little more quantitatively, and redeployment than to the East where there are already a lot of tanks fighting, and it’s also easier to deliver them there. that in prisoners in the west they can quite easily travel across Germany to the Eastern Front. And even on the same Panthers one can see that on the Eastern Front they were MOST almost all the time,

    And you are in no way able to prove that the losses of armored vehicles on the western front exceeded the losses on the Soviet one even despite the full superiority of the Allies in the air and the fact that the Germans fought with them not so fiercely and easier to surrender. This further depreciates the military achievements of the Allies.
  • iConst
    iConst 18 December 2013 09: 16
    0
    Quote: Kars
    .... light (32 tons) VK3001 (H) and heavy (40 tons) VK3601 (H). ...

    The difference is not great (especially bypassing the average) laughing

    PYSY: But we know what is the matter !?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Bongo
    Bongo 16 December 2013 15: 00
    +3
    Powerful to fight tanks, but against pillboxes and sheltered pedestrians — the effect of OFS leaves much to be desired.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 17 December 2013 15: 51
    0
    Do not carry such nonsense, the "tiger", unlike the CT, is in no way an anti-tank tank, its 88 mm cannon does not have very high armor penetration and is intended more for fighting pillboxes. My opinion is that building the "tiger" itself did not build at all, it was necessary to make a "panther" with 88 mm, simpler, cheaper, unified and better for infantry with fortifications with acceptable armor penetration. "Tigers" went to battalions of high-quality reinforcement, and they, as a rule, were attached by the army in the direction of the main attack, they were used against tanks only because life forced them.

    The CT with its 88 mm L / 71 is really something like a bunker with a motor, while its gun is an obvious overkill for everyone except the IS-2 with a straightened armor plate, there was a chance to withstand the blow.

    The hike 88 mm L / 56 is just that very versatile weapon, like the 85 mm on the T-34-85. But the Germans, not having a resource for the Pz-IV, for some reason gave rise to him to replace the "panther", more reminiscent of a purely PT-self-propelled gun. The land mine there is even worse than that of the 4th groove, and the Americans and Britons were tormented with 75 mm, and some long-barreled 76 mm and 17-pounder guns, which were the same tank breakers as the "Panther" cannon, but weak against everything the rest. The anti-tank problem itself arose precisely due to the fact that the generals wanted to keep 75 mm as more effective for soft targets.
  • zyablik.olga
    zyablik.olga 16 December 2013 09: 09
    +8
    But among the German tank destroyers there were real "masterpieces". In addition to the well-known "Hetzer", there was also a Jagdpanzer IV / 70 tank destroyer produced in considerable quantities, the photo of which is in the article. This vehicle was not inferior to the "Panther" in terms of armament and frontal protection.
    It was much cheaper and had a lower silhouette.
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 16 December 2013 09: 32
      +3
      Yes, the Jagdpanzer IV / 70 was a very powerful machine. But in my opinion, this PT ACS had a significant drawback — there was no commander’s cupola.
    2. Basileus
      Basileus 16 December 2013 09: 43
      0
      And didn’t have a tower. Self-propelled guns are, of course, good, but they can not replace a tank everywhere.
      1. Bongo
        Bongo 16 December 2013 09: 47
        +2
        Of course, but as already mentioned self-propelled guns after the 44 in Germany produced more than tanks.
        1. Basileus
          Basileus 16 December 2013 15: 53
          +1
          Time was like that. The Germans constantly scratched their hands into remnants of self-propelled guns)) And after the 44th it turned out that the situation when you only have to defend them pushed them to this.
  • pensioner
    pensioner 16 December 2013 09: 19
    +4
    Yeah ... When a roast cock bit the Germans in the ass, they did not shy away from anything. Even these were their "self-propelled guns":
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 16 December 2013 12: 28
      +3
      Well, don't exaggerate
      7.5cm PaK 40/4 auf Raupenschlepper Ost Selbstfahrlafette built a total of 60 units, from October 43rd to May 44th; as an experiment with ersatz-PTO.
      The 14th and 743th tank destroyer battalions, the 744th Panzergrenadir Division, and 18 units of the 7st Parachute Destruction Brigade received 1 vehicles each.
      The end of the 43rd - the beginning of the 44th is far from the peak of armored vehicles production, so it’s too early to talk about it. 88-mm FLACs based on half-track armored personnel carriers were used by the Germans back in France in 40, as heavy anti-tank guns and destroyers of bunkers; and in Africa in 42nd another improvisation, "Diana", fought on the basis of a half-track tractor with a Soviet captured 76,2 mm cannon; they were armed with the 607th tank destroyer division, 9 vehicles.
    2. iConst
      iConst 18 December 2013 09: 25
      0
      Quote: retired
      When a roast cock bit the Germans in the ass, they did not shy away from anything. Even these were their "self-propelled guns":

      Even when I was about to peck.
      Diligently assembled the F-22 and Su-76 (and not only). Remade and equipped entire units.

      I remember when I watched an Amrikos movie in my childhood, where the Yankees lay their lives defending an old castle in France, just to preserve the historical heritage (yeah - remember Dresden).

      So there is the tank division of the Germans - 34 matches! With crosses. My indignation knew no bounds - well, at least plywood would have been masked a little.
      And only later I learned that this could well be. The Germans created fairly large tank units based on captured tanks and self-propelled guns (not only T-34).
  • pensioner
    pensioner 16 December 2013 09: 25
    +6
    Here is what L. Gorlitsky wrote about this:
    Quote: retired
    "From the second half of 1944 it looked like we had exchanged with the Germans. If in 1941 we installed our 57-mm anti-tank guns on artillery tractors, then in 1944 the Germans put their 75-mm guns on the Ost tractor. If in 1942 our combat vehicles were cramped, if only the armor protected from the most massive 37-mm cannon, and their weapons helped to fight the greatest number of German tanks, now the Germans have made their own light "coffin" - self-propelled gun "wasp". that on the chassis of the Czech T-38. As our projects of 1942. The armor protects only from the "forty-five" and then from the sliding, the gun - 75 mm, like the T-4, a little stronger than our seventy, good shells ran out. at the beginning of 1943, the crisis passed, but they had nowhere to go and had to revise their principles towards simplifying the design and increasing the output ... Only now they dumped the fool with their "Ferdinands" and "Panthers" different ... Each such miracle took them 3 -4 machines like an artillery assault, or 5-6 like a "wasp" ", - said L.I. Gorlitsky.
  • smart ass
    smart ass 16 December 2013 09: 29
    -3
    Tanks of all countries became more anti-tank by the end of the war.
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 16 December 2013 09: 36
      +3
      Of course, the caliber and armor penetration of the guns grew. But compare the Tiger and our IS-2, in which of them is more anti-tank orientation?
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 16 December 2013 12: 59
        +2
        There is nothing to talk about :) The ISs were armed with a large caliber with a lower starting speed and a large explosive action of ammunition))
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 17 December 2013 15: 53
          0
          Just from a strike, the crew of almost any tank instantly left the car with the engine through the stern armor plate. laughing
  • Moore
    Moore 16 December 2013 09: 33
    +12
    The most "fun" in this story is that the Hetzer was developed by the poor occupied Skoda specialists on their own initiative. Such are the Slav brothers ...
    They say that they went to work in black shirts to protest the occupation. They walked carefully and conscientiously ... They probably lie. In the photo everything is in white and ties.
    1. bairat
      bairat 16 December 2013 10: 39
      +19
      Quote: Moore
      They say that they went to work in black shirts to protest the occupation.

      Horror. The French also did not lag behind, the cooks when preparing food for the Germans put a laxative there, the Germans in response limited the trade in alcohol in the evening. The battle was not for life but for death. laughing
      1. amigo1969
        amigo1969 16 December 2013 10: 59
        +8
        How can you sin on the masculine and heroic French partisans and underground workers !! At the cost of their life and WALLET, instead of XO cognac, they supplied the Wehrmacht VSOP lol
      2. iConst
        iConst 18 December 2013 09: 33
        0
        Quote: bairat
        Quote: Moore
        They say that they went to work in black shirts to protest the occupation.

        Horror. The French also did not lag behind, the cooks when preparing food for the Germans put a laxative there, the Germans in response limited the trade in alcohol in the evening. The battle was not for life but for death. laughing

        And so what was happening with us .... the hair stands on end! laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Ivan Petrovich
      Ivan Petrovich 16 December 2013 10: 39
      +3
      yes, yes, that’s just what I would like to mention separately ... why not also require an indemnity from them, because how many bloodsuckers are used for them ...
      1. iConst
        iConst 18 December 2013 09: 37
        0
        Quote: Ivan Petrovich
        yes, yes, that’s just what I would like to mention separately ... why not also require an indemnity from them, because how many bloodsuckers are used for them ...

        As far as I remember, they were going to pay various compensations, but the issue was political and the Union did not agree on something. And only much later did something arrive.

        Who knows better - correct / supplement.
    4. Poppy
      Poppy 16 December 2013 10: 58
      +8
      in black they went home - they protested so that no one could see
    5. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 16 December 2013 13: 02
      0
      Quote: Moore
      occupied Skoda specialists on an initiative basis

      Well, yes, yes ... Actually, the beginning of the article is about how the German military machine meticulously took into account and used both captured weapons and the production capacities of the occupied countries.
    6. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 16 December 2013 13: 27
      +1
      Well, gentlemen, it’s going to be for you ...)) It’s possible to agree and declare the East Arbayters exported to Germany to work for the enemy, because hundreds of thousands worked, albeit involuntarily for the most part, as German laborers
      The church yonder, in the occupied territories, often greeted the invaders, photos and newspapers in bulk, only recently I saw a photo of the church newspaper of those times, everything as it should be, with fat priests, with the headline "Lord, send victory to Adolf Hitler." However, no one, the Russian Orthodox Church today, has not thought of declaring a criminal and collaborative organization ...
      http://ru-antireligion.livejournal.com/7732464.html
    7. The comment was deleted.
  • La-5
    La-5 16 December 2013 10: 44
    0
    Thank you, informative article.
  • amigo1969
    amigo1969 16 December 2013 10: 52
    0
    I read somewhere that the quality of German armor (due to the loss of mines for the extraction of manganese, molybdenum ...) in 1944 sharply decreased. And the Germans went stupidly along the path of increasing its thickness, although it remained fragile and brittle like a cracker.
    1. Nexus 6
      Nexus 6 16 December 2013 11: 27
      +2
      As early as 1941, the armor was worse than the Soviet (like Guderian's) and it was proposed to compensate for it with its thickness. Well, by 1944 it got worse.
      The Germans, it is true, not only stupidly increased the thickness, but they conjured with what they had and made armor of a less or less acceptable quality. Here armor-piercing shells for them, unfortunately, were better.
    2. carbofo
      carbofo 16 December 2013 12: 01
      0
      it was so .
  • Nexus 6
    Nexus 6 16 December 2013 11: 39
    +3
    An intricate structure ... In general, it seems that the Germans had some kind of feudal relations in power. And this was reflected in the armed forces (SS troops, Luftwaffe infantry divisions), and in production, and in development (for example, THREE parallel atomic bomb research projects from various departments, also crap one another)
  • Kars
    Kars 16 December 2013 13: 19
    +2
    A chapter from this book.
  • Sour
    Sour 16 December 2013 14: 21
    +1
    The Germans, experiencing a shortage of resources, tried to bet not on the number of tanks, but on their quality, on their performance characteristics.
    But then I had to increase the cost, without it anywhere. The Tiger was worth a million Reichsmarks. This is like 12 Messerschmitt-109 fighters and only 5 times cheaper than an 11-series submarine capable of operating off the coast of the United States or Brazil.
    Such tanks, by definition, could not be many.
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 16 December 2013 14: 44
      +1
      The tiger did not cost a million Reichsmarks, but cost almost 3 times less. And here the matter lies in the power of industry. A B-29, for example, cost 2,2 million dollars - like a T-34-85 battalion (21 vehicles). The liberator is not much less.
      This did not prevent amers from releasing 36,5 thousand heavy four-engine "strategists", the same as our most massive and cheapest IL-2
      1. Sour
        Sour 16 December 2013 14: 56
        +1
        All sources call the amount from 800 thousand to a million.
        "Three times less" - I hear it for the first time.
        1. Kars
          Kars 16 December 2013 15: 00
          +2
          Kholyavsky Encyclopedia of Tanks 1999 writes about 250
          1. Sour
            Sour 16 December 2013 15: 02
            +2
            The amount of 250 is the initial modification, with rather weak armor, which did not go into series. In addition, this is the cost without weapons.
            1. Kars
              Kars 16 December 2013 15: 13
              +2
              Quote: Sour
              this is the original modification, with fairly weak armor

              I do not know any initial modification of the T6. If you are talking about VK then not about them.



              990
              Opel Kadett 2.100
              DKW Meisterklasse 2.350
              Ford Taunus 2.870
              Adler Triumph Junior 2.950
              PzKpfw II Ausf a 52.640 (with weapons)
              PzKpfw II Ausf B 38.000 (unarmed)
              PzKpfw II Ausf F 49.228 (without weapons)
              52.728 (with weapons)
              Sturmpanzer II Bison 53.000 (with weapons)
              PzKpfw III Ausf M 103.163 (without radio)
              Stug III Ausf G 82.500 (with weapons and radio)
              PzKpfw IV Ausf F2 115.962 (with weapons and radio)
              75mm KwK 42 L / 24 8.000
              75mm StuK 37 L / 24 9.150
              75mm StuK 40 L / 43 12.500
              75mm KwK 42 L / 70 12.000
              PzKpfw VI Tiger 250.800 (without weapons and radio)
              299.800 (with weapons and radio)
              PzKpfw VI Tiger II 321.500 (with weapons and radio)

              http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/otherstatistic.php
              1. Sour
                Sour 16 December 2013 15: 31
                +1
                Well, I can easily find links to a much larger amount on the Internet. You too, if you wish, can be easily found. So your link is one of many.
                even this one
                http://1941-45.rugo.ru/book/0101.php
                even this one
                http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80_%28%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B
                A%29#.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B4.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.BE
                even this one
                http://academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/162037
                Continuing a little point. Here it’s already going, whose links are cooler.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 16 December 2013 15: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Sour
                  http://1941-45.rugo.ru/book/0101.php

                  Quote: Sour
                  ut will go, whose links are cooler.

                  Akhtunpantser will be more reliable.
                2. Kars
                  Kars 16 December 2013 15: 55
                  +1
                  Quote: Sour
                  http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80_%28%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B

                  A%29#.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B4.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.BE

                  and German Wikipedia gives
                  Die Kosten für einen Tiger beliefen sich - ohne Waffen, Optik und Funk - auf 250.800 Reichsmark; voll ausgerüstet betrug der in Rechnung gestellte Preis 300.000 RM

                  and in relation to the tiger, German vetch should be considered more competent
                  • 250.800 RM → Wolfgang Fleischer: Der Panzerkampfwagen VI “Tiger” bei der Truppe. Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3-7909-0637-9, S. 10.
                  • 300.000 RM → Spielberger: Der Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten. S. 106.
                  1. Sour
                    Sour 16 December 2013 16: 10
                    +2
                    That's it, and I'm talking about the debate, whose links are cooler. And this is a dispute about anything.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 16 December 2013 16: 23
                      +2
                      Quote: Sour
                      That's it, and I'm talking about the debate, whose links are cooler. And this is a dispute about anything.

                      Well, why not about anything. My links are more believable.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 16 December 2013 14: 40
    0
    The article is good, very interesting for beginners to be interested in the topic.
    The fact that the Germans realized themselves only closer to the end of the war are themselves to blame, what did they count on? Against them, the global coalition of the Great Powers, with colossal human and industrial resources, many times exceeding them, and even in the 43rd, the products of the civil sector, the production of consumer goods almost prevailed over military orders. Even at the end of 42, the relative share of military expenditures on automobiles exceeded expenditures on armored vehicles (5,0 and 4,7 percent, respectively). The same Skoda and VMM in the Czech Republic, for example, practically didn’t do anything AT ALL, having produced as many as 43 Pz-87 (t) in the 38rd year; and for the 42nd - 195 pieces. This, however, did not prevent them from riveting 400 "Hetzers" a month in the second half of the 44th in the conditions of total bombing. (record - in January 45th, 434 pieces). With the factories bombed "into the trash", the Germans delivered 1854 tanks and self-propelled guns to the mountain in December 44 (without bombing they would have issued somewhere between 2200-2300 units per month). And so in everything - aviation, ammunition, vehicles, artillery, explosives. 229 submarines, built in 44th - this is another 10 tanks not released. Moreover, it was already obvious that the Germans had lost the war at sea, and the submarines were dying in batches, and increasingly to no purpose - to paralyze, or at least slow down, the global transfer of troops and materials across the Atlantic was unrealistic.
    They could easily produce thousands of tanks and a half from the end of the 42nd, then there would be a completely different alignment. And so, what is the use of producing 1800 tanks a month at the end of the war, if they have nothing to refuel often, nothing to equip, there is nowhere and no time to train qualified tankers?
    1. Kars
      Kars 16 December 2013 14: 53
      +2
      Quote: Amphitious
      pieces. This, however, did not prevent them from riveting 400 "Hetzers" per month in the second half of the 44th in the conditions of total bombing.

      Was the Czech Republic bombed before it became clear that it was leaving the USSR?

      On May 9, 1945, the Allied aviation bombed Skoda factories in Mladá Boleslav. In fact, with this bombing, the Skoda factories' orientation toward military products ended. He never had priority again. In the future, Skoda factories specialized in exclusively peaceful products. Cars, trams and trains.
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 16 December 2013 20: 56
        +1
        Again, with your non-application, you are out of nowhere, Kars? Would have diminished, otherwise it would not be so long and lose all their armored "authority" on this resource, by God.

        "In October 1944, the Allied aircraft carried out two raids on Skoda factories, during which 417 tons of bombs were dropped, which sharply slowed down the increase in production of the Hetzer at this plant, although it did not stop it. In December, the number of self-propelled guns produced fell again, including as a result of three new air raids on the Skoda factories, during which 375 tons of bombs were dropped. Nevertheless, in January 1945, it was possible to reach the peak value of production of "Hetzer", after which the rate of production began to fall sharply. The reason for this was the ever-increasing problems with the supply of materials and parts, which the entire industry of the Third Reich experienced, and the continued bombing of the Skoda factories, and since March 25 - BMM "

        Translated from H. Doyle, T. Jentz. Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer 1944-1945, page 8.
        1. Kars
          Kars 17 December 2013 13: 55
          +2
          Quote: Amphitious
          Again, you, with your unanimity, from scratch, Kars?

          Yes? Peremptory? I kind of asked a question?
          Quote: Kars
          Was the Czech Republic bombed before it became clear that it was leaving the USSR?

          even two question marks.

          And of course, 417 tons of bombs (if they were still) with the accuracy that gave high-altitude strikes is not serious.
          Quote: Amphitious
          that, however, did not prevent them from riveting 400 "Hetzer"

          Very, well, very suitable for your peremptory TOTAL bombing.
          1. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 17 December 2013 14: 50
            +1
            I would not advise you, even before the heap, to get into a puddle with bombing, as with the economy until now ("vodka and tanks"), armored vehicles, etc.
            In November the 43rd, 1454 tons of bombs were dropped on Alkett, and the first raid was unsuccessful, mainly administrative buildings were destroyed. However, if in October the 43rd Alket produced 255 StuG III, then in December 24 pieces. The restoration of the plant took many months. MIAG, which joined the Stews production in February 43rd, and by January 44th had a monthly production contract for 150 StuG III and 125 Jagdpanther. Due to systematic raids, I recommend asking how much and what he actually produced. And yet, you are our authority, tell me how many tons of mombas were dumped by the Germans on our GAZ in the summer of the 43rd, what destruction it led to and how it affected production.
            1. Kars
              Kars 17 December 2013 15: 42
              +1
              Quote: Amphitious
              I would not advise you

              Well, do not advise.
              Quote: Amphitious
              November 43th, 1454 tons of bombs dropped on Alkett

              What does Alket have to do with the bombing of Czechoslovakia?

              So your
              Quote: Amphitious
              , however, did not prevent them from riveting 400 "Hetzer" in the conditions of total bombing

              nothing more than tryndezh. I did not make you write TOTAL and Hetzer in one sentence.

              And in fact, this only proves that the Allied bombing was not as effective as some people think.
              Quote: Amphitious
              And yet, you are our authority, tell me how many tons of mombas were dumped by the Germans on our GAZ in the summer of the 43rd, what destruction it led to and how it affected production.

              Without a clue, and I look at you, my authority hurts you greatly))) but you haven’t been distinguished by anything special except for lying and distorting.
              1. The comment was deleted.
  • nnz226
    nnz226 16 December 2013 15: 13
    +5
    Yes, the "brothers" - the Slavs - the Czechs, like the shock workers of the captrude, worked hard for the cause of the Nazi party and personally the great Fuhrer, churning out tanks and self-propelled guns that killed Soviet soldiers! And then on May 5, 1945, these same diligent workers, for the benefit of the Wehrmacht, sent radio messages to the Soviet Army so that it would save their Prague. And then the heirs of these diligent workers for the cause of the Wehrmacht, painted with pink paint a tank-monument, one of the liberated Prague ... The question is, is it worth fighting for such "brothers"? If, God forbid, you have to? Moreover, the Czechs are now in NATO? But NATO will not last forever, and someone will come, wanting to get the Kemsk (Sudetsk) volost back. And the gayro-democratic-toleranceists will repeat the Munich sample of 1938, while the Czechs will sit in the corridor ...
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 16 December 2013 23: 47
    +1
    Yes?! The Germans in the armored forces was still a mess. Now it’s starting to become clear how they launched their miracle cat series. It seems that the Germans didn’t do statistics during the war, they made decisions more with their hearts and souls than with their brains.
  • ss25
    ss25 17 December 2013 01: 17
    0
    88 mm had a large armor-piercing ability due to the length of the barrel, with which the projectile was dispersed. Well, as I understand it)