The main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan"

A tender for the creation of a modern tank for the Turkish armed forces was announced in February 2000. It was perceived as one of the most attractive in the field of armaments and attracted the attention of all the tank-producing powers of the world. The “Project of the Century” was valued at $ 4–7 billion and initially assumed that the winning country would supply 250 main battle tanks to Ankara and receive an order to organize their further production in Turkey, bringing the total number to 1000 units. This ambitious project was included in the 30-year modernization program of the armed forces, to which Turkey plans to allocate $ 150 billion. Leading companies in the field of tank construction were invited to participate in the tender. As a result of the selection, Germany, the USA, Ukraine and France reached the final. Such luminaries in the production of tanks as England, Italy, Russia remained behind.

Germany presented to Ankara a project for assembling a limited fleet of cars “Leopard” 2А6. France has also developed a plan for a "limited" factory of existing Leclerc tanks. The United States, under the same conditions, offered to assemble Abrams M1А2 machines. Ukraine has gone further than its competitors, having developed specifically for Turkey a project for assembling an unlimited fleet of a “purely Turkish” model of the T-84 tank, armed with an 120-mm gun. Since Turkey is a member of NATO, one of the indispensable conditions of the competition was the compliance of the tank’s main armament with the standards of this military bloc. Such a requirement excluded from the participants of the competition, for example, Russia.

The participating countries submitted their new cars to the competition: Germany - Leopard-2А6, USA - M1A2 Abrams, Ukraine - T-84 – 120 (“Yatagan”), France - Leclerk. The Turks meticulously tested them for about two years. Moreover, the tests were carried out both on the landfills of Turkey and on the territories of the competing countries. According to experts, the technical characteristics of the chances of all four cars were approximately equal. According to unofficial results of complex tests, Leopard and T-84 took the first and second places. The Turks worked with each tenderer in confidence, so the information was not disclosed.

The Ukrainian machine, the factory index “object 478Н”, later called “Yatagan” (in various publications - KERN 2-120, Т-84-120, Т-84У; however, these names were not used in the KMBR), at the end of 1999 It was completely assembled from components produced in Ukraine, although it was envisaged, at the request of the customer, to install systems and components of foreign manufacturers.

When developing the Yatagan, technical solutions were used that were verified during the modernization of the T-72-120 tank, which was first demonstrated at the IDEX-99 international arms exhibition.

The undercarriage of the tank was borrowed from the main battle tank T-84U “Oplot” and consists of a sprung part and a tracked propulsion unit. The suspension of the torsion tank, tracked propulsion unit consists of 6 supporting double-disk rubberized rollers with a diameter of 670 mm from aluminum alloy, supporting rollers, front guide and rear drive wheels on each side. On the first, second and sixth nodes of the suspension there are telescopic hydraulic double-acting shock absorbers. The guide wheels have caterpillar tensioning mechanisms. The design of the tank allows you to overcome water obstacles to a depth of 1,8 m without training.

The layout of the main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan" is made according to the classic type - in front of the case there is a control compartment with a driver's seat, followed by a fighting compartment, and in the stern of the tank is a power transmission compartment. The body has a multi-layered reservation, consisting of sheets of armor and ceramic materials. There is also the possibility of hanging blocks of dynamic protection.

MTO is equipped with a multi-fuel diesel engine capable of operating in different climatic conditions at ambient temperatures from -40 ° to + 55 °, as well as in high-altitude areas at altitudes up to 3000 meters. The ventilation system supplying air to the engine ensures reliable operation of the engine with natural dust. MTO has a system of maximum concealment due to thermal factors of detection.

The main armament of the T-84-120 Yatagan tank is an 120-mm smooth-bore cannon KBM2, which is stabilized in two planes, of Ukrainian production, the design of which meets the requirements of NATO standards. Considering the tight timeframe for preparation for the tender, in the fall of 1999, the KMDB concluded a contract with the Swiss company Swiss Ordnace Athice Corp. through Ukrspetsexport Corporation. for the manufacture of 120-mm barrels for the gun KBM2.

Since the 120-mm gun (as opposed to the Russian 125-mm) uses unitary ammunition, a completely new automatic loader of the jammed type was developed, which was placed in the rear part of the tower in the rear mounted niche.

Loading a cannon tank "Yatagan" is made using automatic loader. The ammunition is forty shots - 22 shots are placed in the conveyor of the automatic loader in a special compartment in the rear of the tower, separated from the fighting compartment by an armored partition, there are expelling panels in the compartment roof, which ensures the safety of the crew in the event of an explosion housed in the hull, and another 16 shot placed in the fighting compartment.

The rate of fire 8 - 10 shots / min, and also provided for the modes of semi-automatic and manual loading.

All types of ammunition developed in accordance with NATO standards (STANAG 4385 and STANAG 4110), APFSDS-T, NEAT-MP-T and others, as well as laser-guided missiles made in Ukraine, adapted to the caliber 120 mm, could be used.

An additional weapon was the 7,62-mm machine gun, paired with a cannon and a 12,7 anti-aircraft gun, mounted on the hatch of the tank commander and stabilized in the vertical plane.

The aiming firing is provided by the fire control complex (TOR) from the T-84U Oplot tank, but adapted to the new type of weaponry. The TEM consists of a thermal imager, a gunner’s day sight, a commander’s observation and observation complex, an anti-aircraft gun, an anti-aircraft gun control system, a ballistic computer with input sensors and a weapon stabilizer.

According to experts, the technical characteristics of the four machines that participated in the second stage of the competition were approximately equal. But according to unofficial results of complex tests, which took place both on the landfills of Turkey and on the territory of the competing countries, Leopard and Yatagan took the first and second places.

The advantages of the Ukrainian tank could be attributed to the fact that it is about 10 t lighter than its competitor, its body is lower, that is, the tank is less vulnerable, overcomes water obstacles to the depth of 1,8 m without preparation. In addition, the unique Kharkov engine was adapted to work in hot climates, so he did not lose power at air temperatures up to + 55 ° С.

However, in modern military business, winners are often determined by factors unrelated to product quality. The outcome of the case often depends on the political weight category of the participating country, its traditional historical orientation and belonging to one or another military-political blocs, as well as from the level of lobbying and investment conditions of applicants. So, according to experts, Italy lost its chances of participating in the tender even before it began after the disputes of Ankara and Rome around the Kurdish leader Ocalan being on the Apennine Peninsula. For France, the adoption by its parliament of a bill condemning the Turkish genocide against Armenians during the Ottoman Empire was a big minus. And the discussion in the US Congress of such a bill significantly reduced the chances of the traditionally strong Americans in the arms market. Berlin was also vulnerable, pointing to human rights violations in Turkey. In addition, having a lot of German equipment in service, Ankara is inclined to be wary of new large purchases. weapons from Germany, so that his presence does not become critical in the sense of dependence on Berlin.

Somewhat later, the war in Iraq began to make significant adjustments to the gender balance. As a result, it turned out that a politically inconspicuous Ukraine has its advantages - only Ankara could not make any political claims against Kiev. A factor was discovered that could play a role in determining the winning country, which gave hope for success in the tender.

Ukraine was able to lay out a few more trump cards, showing some flexibility and ingenuity in the pursuit of the contract. Ukrainian tank builders have been able to demonstrate a number of T-84 advantages over competitors: our machine is approximately 10 tons lighter, has greater maneuverability and high combat power. It is lower, that is, less vulnerable, and, unlike its competitors, it overcomes water barriers with depth 1,8 m without preparation. The unique Kharkov engine, like no other, is optimally adapted to work in hot climates - it does not lose power at air temperature plus 55 degrees At the same time, Ukraine put out the lowest price for T-84 and, very importantly, was also the only country that was ready to transfer Ankara 100% tank technologies. In addition, Kharkov KB them. Morozova, the developer of T-84, having implemented several technical and design innovations, at the final stage of the tender made a rather good move, inviting the Turks to give the tank a beautiful name - “Yatagan”.

But due to financial problems caused, in particular, by the devastating earthquake, Turkey moderated its military appetites. The tank tender allegedly got into the list of abbreviated programs. Preference was given to the modernization of the 170 obsolete tanks M60. The contract for 668 million was received by the Israeli company Israel Military Industries. The Turks also entered into a contract to supply the 298 2А4 tanks that were in service with the army of the Federal Republic of Germany, which had to undergo a major overhaul at the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall Landsysteme factories.

Due to a number of circumstances, Kiev placed great hopes on him. After fulfilling the Pakistani contract for the supply of 320 T-80-UD to Islamabad ($ 650 million), the main manufacturer of tanks in our country is the Kharkiv factory of them. Malysheva - experienced a sharp decline. Winning the tender could be a kind of lifeline for the entire armored industry. By the way, it was the armored theme that led and steadily holds Ukraine in the top ten of the world's largest manufacturers of military equipment and weapons. The situation was worsened by the fact that parallel contests for the supply of tanks to Greece and Malaysia, in which Ukraine participated, were unsuccessful for us. Under the pressure of political circumstances, Malaysia preferred Poland (RT-91), while Greece decided to buy German Leopard. The bitterness of Kiev’s losses in these tenders somewhat softened the breakthrough in Pakistan’s direction. In the summer of 2002, the plant. Malysheva, winning in tough competition with European manufacturers, signed a contract for $ 100 million to supply Islamabad with 285 engines for the new Al Khalid tank, which was developed as part of an international project with the participation of China, Pakistan and Ukraine.

Tactical and technical characteristics of the main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan"

Length with a cannon forward 9,664 m, length of the hull 7,075 m, width along the tracks 3,595 m, width along the side screens 3,775, height over the roof of the tower 2,215 m
Mass xnumx t
3 crew
Ground clearance (ground clearance) mm 515
Track width 2,8 m
Powerplant: 6-cylinder horizontal two-fuel two-stroke diesel engine with direct-flow 6TD-2 purge, hp 1200 power (883 kW) at 2600 rpm
Specific engine power 25 hp / t
Maximum speed on the highway 65 km / h, cross-country 45-50 km / h
Cruising on the highway 450 km on the main fuel tanks, 540 km with additional barrels
Cruising over rough terrain 350 km on main fuel tanks, 450 km with additional barrels
Fuel capacity 1300 L
Armament: 120-mm smoothbore gun KBM2, 7,62-mm machine gun, 12,7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun
Ammunition: 40 shots 120-mm, 4000 cartridges 7,62-mm, 450 cartridges 12,7-mm
Specific pressure on soil 0,93 kgf / cm2
Overcoming obstacle: ford with depth 1,8 m, with OPVT (equipment for underwater driving of tank) - up to 5 m, wall with height 1 m, ditch width 2,85 m, angle of lift 32 °, roll 25 °

Sources:
http://www.depo.ua/ru/delovaja-stolica/2003_ds/2003_10_ds/128_toc/art11207.htm
http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/topic4700.html
http://armyman.info/bronetehnika/tanki/10338-osnovnoy-boevoy-tank-t-84-120-yatagan.html
http://armoredgun.org/brm008/ukraine_3.html
http://alternathistory.org.ua/tanki-oplot-i-yatagan-nadezhda-ukrainskogo-tankoproma

Comments

[Vadivak]

Good car. IMHO. Andrei, I know what you look at, and what kind of engine is a VTD? If possible, who is his predecessor?

But the key phrase of the article is still - Under the pressure of political circumstances European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.

[PROXOR]

The same as on the T-64. If I remember 5TDF correctly. Special low-profile engine with opposing pistons with power from 700l.s. Good dvigtatel. For a long time, Soviet engine operators were tormented so that he would work without problems.

[Vadivak]

Quote: PROXOR

The same as on the T-64.

Thank you Sergey.

[svp67]

Quote: PROXOR

Good dvigatel

HA HA ... Good joke ..

[roller2]

Quote: Vadivak

European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment,

As soon as another domestic model of equipment flies at the next tender, the main reason for this is political factor.
Isn’t it time to take a sober look at this situation? Yes, the results of a large number of tenders are politically motivated, but there are many reasons why domestic equipment is inferior to foreign.
Such as the inability to provide normal warranty and post-warranty service (sometimes it comes to the fact that it is easier to get Chinese counterfeit than original spare parts, even if you have money).
Ergonomics and living conditions in our technology are taken into account last, the arrangement of devices is dictated not by those who will work with them, but by designers (as they find it easier).
Well and so on, you can tell the little things but they then make the game.

[Evgeny_Lev]

Be careful with the term "domestic", as the subject does not apply to it.

[carbofo]

Quote: Evgeny_Lev

Be careful with the term "domestic", as the subject does not apply to it.

In the West, they make no distinction, from Vladivostok to Minsk, all Russians are the same and the attitude is the same, except that there are differences in the fact that Ukraine can be fucked and Russia is gone.

[Kars]

Quote: carbofo

No difference in the West

Already 15 years have been making distinctions.

Quote: carbofo

unless there are differences in the fact that Ukraine can be fucked and Russia is gone.

I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.

But you can sell what is left of the Union, everything that "the buyer's eye falls on," especially the Chinese one. And the prototype of the Su33 and the Zubr and much more ...

[sapran]

it's easier to put a line in China, and then "meow" that everything is gone "copier" they say drives away customers ...

[roller2]

Quote: svp67

But you can sell what remains of the Union,

And why not?
You, too, did not graze the rear in this matter.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

", especially the Chinese one. And the prototype of the Su33 and the Zubr and much more ...

So for the sake of interest - why didn't the Russian Federation buy the prototype of the Su-33? And what did Ukraine have to do with it?

But in fact, what are the Chinese money bad? Tank engines that you don’t like to buy regularly, and calmly react when Ukraine forbids their re-export.

CHINA DEVELOPED UKRAINE AS A STRATEGIC PARTNER

kotobood
December 9th, 17:30 During the visit of the President of Ukraine to China, the parties signed the Strategic Cooperation Agreement for 2014-2018.
During the visit of the President of Ukraine to China, the parties signed the Strategic Cooperation Agreement for 2014-2018. Ukraine has discussed strategic cooperation with China until 2018. In the next 5 years, China intends to import $ 10 trillion worth of products. And part of this quota may go to Ukraine. This is evidenced by the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation for 5 years, signed by the heads of state. The Chinese side highly appreciated the economic reforms in our country, opening its markets for Ukrainian products.

Cooperation with the Celestial Empire will create powerful incentives for the development of the real sector of the Ukrainian economy. Commodity circulation between the countries will triple already next year - from 10 to 30 billion US dollars.
Under the agreement, the parties signed more than 20 agreements, the drafts of which were prepared during the visit of the First Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Sergey Arbuzov to the PRC
The parties identified agriculture, aircraft building, and mortgage programs as the most strategic directions for enhancing investment and economic cooperation. Chairman of the People’s Republic of China Xi Jinping announced that starting next year, Ukraine will become a major food supplier. Despite the 10-year period established by the Celestial Empire for certification of agricultural imports, the quality standards of Ukrainian corn, soy and barley were agreed in less than a year.
The parties signed a protocol on phytosanitary and inspection requirements regarding the export of the above crops from Ukraine. The agreement will significantly expand the range of agricultural supplies to the PRC market and bring Ukraine into the category of the main food supplier.
Among other things, China confirmed its intentions to complete the project for the construction of the Air Express railway line, which will connect Kiev with Boryspil. According to the signed Memorandum, the rolling stock will be manufactured by the Kryukov Carriage Works.
In addition, agreements were signed on the development of the aircraft industry in Ukraine. On the basis of the Zaporozhye engine-building enterprise "Motor-Sich" it is planned to expand production areas, create joint ventures that will provide a full cycle of aircraft construction.

The parties reached strategic agreements in the mortgage sector. In particular, a Memorandum was signed between the state mortgage institution and the Chinese corporation CITIC Construction on the construction of affordable housing in Ukraine. For these purposes, China will provide $ 15 billion for a period of 15 years with the possibility of prolonging and expanding this project. Implementation of the project will reduce interest rates on loans and significantly reduce the housing line.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

On the basis of the Zaporozhye engine-building enterprise "Motor-Sich" it is planned to expand production areas, create joint ventures that will provide a full cycle of aircraft construction.

Dreams ... dreams ... That's when they build, then we'll talk ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Dreams ... dreams ... That's when they build, then we'll talk ...

The funny thing is that just the Chinese can be trusted, they are not interested in talking like some An-70s.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

The funny thing is that just the Chinese can be trusted, they are not interested in talking like some An-70s.

So remember this, if you can still hide from the West from Russia, then this trick will not work with China, so my condolences to you.
And at the expense of AN70, it is better to keep quiet, because in this situation, Ukraine is an outspoken "kidok" ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

So remember this, if you can still hide from the West from Russia, then this trick will not work with China

Hide from Russia by the West)))) and where are we in the process of AN-70 to hide behind them?

Quote: svp67

so my condolences to you.

Well, why so, you can work normally with China.

Quote: svp67

And at the expense of AN70, it is better to keep quiet, because in this situation, Ukraine is an outspoken "kidok" ...

Well, I think that from the Russian Federation as a lever of coercion.

The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine proposes to the People's Deputy of Ukraine to replenish the authorized capital of the Antonov State Enterprise by UAH 111,9 million to continue construction of the AN-70 aircraft under the state defense order of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. This is stated in the bill No. 3744 "On Amendments to Appendix No. 3 to the Law of Ukraine" On the State Budget of Ukraine for 2013 "regarding the State Enterprise" Antonov ", the text of which is posted on the website of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
(Read more ... Collapse)

"Today SE" Antonov "is carrying out work under a state contract with the Ministry of Defense regarding the purchase of AN-70 aircraft for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. To ensure this work, it is necessary to carry out work at the enterprise to prepare the production of AN-70 aircraft, which, in accordance with of the national program for the creation of the AN-70 military transport aircraft and its purchase under the state defense order, approved by the law of Ukraine dated February 5.02.2004, 1462 No. XNUMX, must be carried out with the involvement of the state budget and other sources of funding not prohibited by law, "the explanatory note says to the document.

At the present time, as noted, there are no free working capital to carry out these works in the Antonov State Enterprise.

In order to ensure the fulfillment of the state contract with the Ministry of Defense regarding the creation and purchase of the AN-70 aircraft and due to the lack of free funds from the enterprise, it is proposed to amend Appendix No. 3 to the Law of Ukraine "On the State Budget of Ukraine for 2013" and provide for the state agency Of Ukraine for the management of state corporate rights and property, expenditures from the general fund in the amount of UAH 111,9 million under the budget program "Replenishment of the authorized capital of the state enterprise" Antonov "by reducing the expenses of the Ministry of Defense under the budget program" Development of weapons and military equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine " ...

"The adoption of the law will allow to continue work on the construction of the AN-70 aircraft under the state defense order in the interests of the Ministry of Defense, as well as create conditions for stabilizing the operation of the enterprise and further development of the aviation industry," the authors of the bill explain.

I said for a long time there was no need to communicate with the Russian Federation, and India itself would have sold them for a long time, and they would not have modernized the AN-32.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

and calmly react when Ukraine prohibits their re-export.

We, thank God, have already changed their minds and stopped concluding openly "ridiculous" agreements with China, and they stopped letting them around, so you are their last hope and they do not want to lose you yet ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Thank God, we have already thought better of it and have ceased to conclude with China

You already have nothing special to offer, except for the layouts of Almaty and PAK

[Dmitriy1975]

Have you returned from Maidan?

[Kars]

The Celestial Empire decided to support the financial sector of Ukraine as well. And a number of media outlets next year, China will provide the National Bank of Ukraine with an export loan of $ 5 billion with the possibility of expanding the currency swap in bilateral foreign trade settlements. The parties also agreed on the entry of Chinese banks into the Ukrainian market and the opening of branches of Ukrainian banks in China. In addition, the People's Bank of the People's Republic of China expressed interest in purchasing Ukrainian bonds of external loan. The parties have not yet announced the amount of the planned purchase, but we are talking about an inflow of foreign currency into the country in the amount of several billion dollars.

[lab29]

I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.
But what, can you sell a lot of things?)))

[sapran]

Not except for "singed" Gorilka and "etched Roshen" and there is nothing to offer
... Non-Ukrainians feel bad about the fat-drug from him, "Home-cowbass" is soy in theory and does not meet the standards of the Customs Union (there are mostly Muslims)

[Vadivak]

Quote: rolik2

failure to provide normal warranty and post warranty service

Alexander with all due respect, have you read carefully?

Ukraine went further than its competitors by developing a project for the assembly of an unlimited park specifically for Turkey

[roller2]

Quote: Vadivak

Alexander with all due respect, have you read carefully?

I did not mean specifically this case, but the situation in general.
Take the same India, it is forced to purchase Chinese parts, because the Russian components in the right quantity are simply not produced.

[duke]

but nevertheless, the Turks chose the Korean version ... why would it be if in Ukraine they were offered such sweet conditions ???

[Argon]

I cannot but agree, with the opinion of rolik2, there is some truth in the view of ergonomics. The issue of service provision (financial costs of organizing it) is less related to the very sample of technology, but rather to the sphere of economic planning, and is not initially included in the cost of the sample, For this reason, the cost of "our" equipment is significantly lower, but in fact, it brings more headaches to the owner. Although, of course, everything depends on the contract itself. As for the Turkish tender, the "Yatagan", in fact, an experimental car, had to compete with the samples, A number of parameters related to the cost of the life cycle for him, unlike competitors, is not known. It is also worth remembering the end of this anecdote-the Turks, having seen enough, having tested the tanks, felt that everything they proposed was bad and expensive and decided (not without a hookah ) to develop a tank independently. The result was "Altai" which cannot even withstand the requirements for integration into the NATO BIUS.

[Kars]

The Turkish tender is an obsessively politicized decision - because everyone already knows how closely they work together.

Quote: Argon

It is also worth remembering the end of this joke, the Turks having seen enough, having tested the tanks, considered that everything they had been offered was bad and expensive and decided (not without a hookah) to develop the tank on their own.

But before that, they had bought 300 leopardoa 2A4 B / U. And the decision to create it is self-sufficient - this is a common Turkish trend, now they are trying to create almost everything themselves. Or organize production on their territory.

[wanderer_032]

Most likely diesel 6TD

[Vadivak]

Quote: wanderer_032

Most likely diesel 6TD

Like he is. 6TD-2

[PROXOR]

Quote: Vadivak

Most likely diesel 6TD

Quote: Vadivak

Like he is. 6TD-2

I do not argue, I answered only by looking at the appearance of the engine. But we will be realistic. 6TD-2 is still the same 5TDF, which began its history with 5TD in 550hp To call it different is the same as saying that the B84 or B92 engine is completely different than the B2 1940. (For reference, B84 and B92 are currently installed tank engines. They are installed on T-72 tanks of all modifications and on the T-90. Well, B-2 is a legend. It was first installed on object A32 which, after state testing, received the T-34 index .)

A moment of positive time I already remembered about the T-34.
War veteran filling out a visa application for Germany:
Count - the date of the last visit to Germany - the old man wrote 1944-1945.
Count - what drove into Germany and options: Airplane, car, train, ship, other. Grandfather chose another and wrote in a number of T-34s.

[cth; fyn]

War veteran filling out a visa application for Germany:

Enchantingly, grandfather touched Germany.

[ytqnhfk]

Grandfather bow with great respect !! Not everyone can say that he drove to Germany on the legendary t -34!

[svp67]

Quote: PROXOR

But we will be realistic. 6TD-2 is still the same 5TDF, which began its history with 5TD in 550hp To call it different is the same as saying that the B84 or B92 engine is completely different than the B2 1940

But if so then with 4TD ...
And by design you are wrong, do you think the letter "F" is simple so it disappeared from the name?
And in relation to the development of B2-learn materiel ...

[Vovka levka]

Quote: Vadivak

But the key phrase of the article is still - Under the pressure of political circumstances

It has always been so all over the world, it is and will be. Such a reality.

[avdkrd]

Quote: Vadivak

European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.

I agree, but I think that Russia is also extremely uninterested in Ukraine moving its equipment. Moreover, logically, Russia should make every effort to completely collapse the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. What is this information worth - Ukraine was also the ONLY country ready to transfer 100% of tank technology to Ankara. Even Italy, whose tanks have, to put it mildly, dubious combat properties, even in their thoughts, does not have to give someone (an ally in the bloc) TECHNOLOGIES. Ukraine consistently squanders the technologies that were created in the Soviet Union and form the basis of including Russian technology. Without going into disputes that the T90 or Yatagan is better, we can clearly say that they have a common pedigree and, despite differences in layout and even in ideology, they have technical solutions inherent in the Soviet tank school. The scimitar is definitely a good tank and for Turkey it was the best choice, given the price factor in general, no doubt. The strengthening of Turkey by the technology of such a level in Russia is clearly nothing, especially if it has nothing to do with it. Russia also sins with technology transfer, and apparently modern marketing in the field of armaments implies the inevitability of such processes, but at least I haven’t heard about 100%, mainly we are talking about joint development or about assembling assembly kits from our partner’s territory (India, for example).

[roller2]

Quote: avdkrd

Ukraine consistently squanders the technologies that were created in the Soviet Union and form the basis of including Russian technology.

??? Russia has built a tank factory in India, a Su-27 assembly line for China, is that how you think ?? New marketing move? Or also squandering technology?
By building a factory for the Turks and selling a license for the production of tanks, Ukraine would receive royalties as well as Russia from India.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: rolik2

Russia built India tank factory, China assembly line Su-27

There is a rather curious situation with India: having its own factory, the number of T-90 purchased was repeatedly reviewed in favor of their supply from Russia in the direction of their increase.
Regarding the Su-27 in China, no one supplied them with technology for the production of engines for the aircraft; engines are still being purchased in Russia. The Chinese engine stripped from our engine has very little engine life and is unlikely to compete with the native engine of the Su-27 even in the domestic market, let alone in the external one.

[roller2]

I agree with the engines, but they already ALREADY do the glider, electronics, weapons. This does not turn out much worse.

[svp67]

Quote: rolik2

I agree with the engines, but they already ALREADY do the glider, electronics, weapons. This does not turn out much worse.

Alas and ah, and to the delight of our defenders, the glider of "their" plane is worse, not significantly, but worse ...

[sapran]

On engines "annoying omission" on which they are already working closely. But according to lipetronics, everything is probably in the reverse order.

[nick-name]

Greetings!
I remember I had a conversation with you about the security of the turret-mounted "Black Eagle" AZ, on the AZ diagram in the article you can see how much a similar AZ is protected from board.

[svp67]

Quote: avdkrd

I agree, but I think that Russia is also extremely not interested in Ukraine moving its equipment

Don't go to the "fortuneteller", we DO NOT NEED competitors ...

[Tuzik]

if they are associated with Europe, then this development will come in handy;

[PROXOR]

Do not croak - the egg will be laid.

[roller2]

Quote: Tuzik

associated with europe

NATO association and standards are two different things from different operas.

A tank for 2000 is really good.

[Ivan Mechanic]

Considering that Ukraine’s steel does not fall into EU standards, Ukraine, like Poland, will have to buy used German or French tanks!

[Kars]

Quote: Ivan Mechanic

Given that Ukraine’s steel does not fall under EU standards

can you justify this logically? especially for export to third countries? There’s no question of deliveries to your own aircraft - you don’t need to register a tank in the EU for this))))

[Hug]

Quote: Kars

Quote: Ivan Mechanic

Given that Ukraine’s steel does not fall under EU standards

can you justify this logically? especially for export to third countries? There’s no question of deliveries to your own aircraft - you don’t need to register a tank in the EU for this))))

You, dear, probably know what you are talking about. But I have a slightly different info. Namely: Ukrainian steel, incl. not "shovel-nail", but high-quality (including steel ESR, VAR, etc.) are quite well represented in Europe, incl. in Germany. I say it because I know not by hearsay and do not use the OBS agency (one woman said), but I myself have some relation to this. In addition, the concept of GOST is well known here, as well as EURONORMA, DIN ,. AFNOR, ASTM, etc.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Kram

.... But I have a slightly different info. Namely: Ukrainian steel, incl. not "shovel-nail", but high-quality (including steel ESR, VAR, etc.) are quite well represented in Europe, incl. in Germany ...

There was a video on YouTube with an interview from some UVZ manager. He said that steel for wagons was previously purchased in Ukraine, but recently it has become inferior to Chinese in quality. Steel was purchased from the Chinese.

By the way, Ukraine used to be able to supply steel at dumping prices, but due to the rise in gas prices for Ukraine to foreign market prices,
this is hardly possible.

[sapran]

MANAGER with UVZ? !!! Yes, you are right, as always ... just as in the interview

[Bad_gr]

Quote: sapran

MANAGER with UVZ? !!! Yes, you are right, as always ... just as in the interview

Interviews were taken directly at the car factory. Sense of lying to a correspondent about a metal supplier? if you buy Ukrainian, but said that Chinese - for this you can not get shabby.

[sapran]

What does it have to do with lies? If it is profitable to take Chinese steel, then only you and in favor.

[Prohor]

Quote: Vadivak

European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.

They won't. But the "Maidan" will be promised ...
It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?

[Kars]

Quote: Prokhor

They won't. But I will promise the "Maidan"

vryatli promise.

And as I see it, there are some prospects to suppress UVZ in the Russian tank market?

And nobody is obliged to help Ukraine to move its equipment to Ukraine - these are the tasks of Ukraine itself.

[GastaClaus69]

Quote: Prokhor

It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?

Better and not necessary. As with the AN-70 it will be, bad, good do not care, the main thing is politics.

[sapran]

Rogozin examined a number of defense industry enterprises. But most likely he does not intend to change his decision and the general direction on this issue.
... But a number of developments have already been presented in the last topic with the T-90SM (promptly I would say very quickly :( (pryuvat Solomatina and Co.))

[svp67]

Quote: Prokhor

It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?

Of course, now "Kharkovites" are lured to our factories, to work on the profile ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Of course, now "Kharkovites" are lured to our factories, to work on the profile ...

Really? And many were lured?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Really? And many were lured?

Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ... You better think about your enterprises ... who will work there? There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally, neither we nor the West NEED it ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Don’t worry, we have enough

I don’t worry. Because you vryatli whom you could lure.

Quote: svp67

There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally, neither we nor the West NEED

It’s good that his well-being is neither from you nor from the West (by the way, to the West it’s mostly parallel, there are private offices, and what we need to sell them with ease, and you have nothing to buy after the Pakistan contract).

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

It’s good that his well-being is neither from you nor from the West (by the way, to the West it’s mostly parallel, there are private offices, and what we need to sell them with ease, and you have nothing to buy after the Pakistan contract).

Well, I think that after "Thai" no one will want to contact you. What's the point of waiting ten years for an order ...?

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Well, I think that after "Thai" no one will want to contact you

We will see

Quote: svp67

T. What is the point of waiting ten years for the completion of the order ...?

Azerbaijan made less than hundreds of T-90s with serial continuous production for two years))))

2 Leopard 2A4, as of October 2013. In total, in 2012, the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia ordered from Germany 42 Leopard 2A4 tanks, 61 Leopard 2 Revolution tanks and 10 armored bridge spacers and armored recovery vehicles. Deliveries of equipment are scheduled for 2013-2014. as of 2012

and this is a speech on used tanks

[sapran]

Firstly, there is a special "tuning", and secondly, he came with a makeweight in the form of air defense and it is really good.
... and Kars does not need to tell the "rotozee" how many T-90s were built in the same place, now they are buying steel in China, but for now, order and bring the year it will definitely pass, and there the holidays (post-holidays) generally worked in 3 shifts, and you are here tell about 2 years. Here you have to look at India

[Bad_gr]

Quote: sapran

no need to tell the "rotozei" how many T-90s were built in the same place, now they are buying steel in China, ....

Share the source of information about Chinese steel for the T-90.

[sapran]

If you do not understand the irony in the post, then I'm sorry ...

[Bad_gr]

Quote: sapran

If you do not understand the irony in the post, then I'm sorry ...

Regarded as sarcasm. But I thought, what if a person really thinks that wagons and tanks are made of one metal ....

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Azerbaijan made less than hundreds of T-90s with serial continuous production for two years))))

Well, what can you do with the "Indian" order "OUT OF THE QUEUE", so they have to connect Omsk ..

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Well, what can you do with the "Indian" order "OUT OF THE QUEUE", so they have to connect Omsk ..

Did they make T-90 for Omsk in Azerbaijan? They even sold machines to China there,

[roller2]

Quote: svp67

Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...

Quote: svp67

Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...

It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians

[svp67]

Quote: rolik2

It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians

The main thing is that we will see her.
And the Ukrainians will not be allowed to the "Armata", they will have enough work to modernize the T72 ... in Omsk

[roller2]

Are you so sure that there will be something to look at ???

Quote: svp67

enough T72 modernization ... in Omsk

Enlighten ?? when there they began to upgrade ??

[svp67]

Quote: rolik2

It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians

Not at the seams, but at the SEAMS. Your BTR4 is an excellent confirmation of this ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Our BTR4 is an excellent confirmation of this.

Have you heard? Indonesia ordering an BTR4 pilot batch.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Have you heard? Indonesia ordering an BTR4 pilot batch.

How did you hear:

Admiral Marsetio, the chief of staff of the Indonesian Navy, outlining plans for replenishing the Navy with new weapons and equipment before local journalists on December 5, 2013, among other things, indicated that the Indonesian marines will be supplied five BTR-4 - as well as 37 Russian BMP-3F

Agree 5 and 37 - the difference is significant

[sapran]

To be honest, after the BMP-3F I can hardly imagine the "Ladya". These are versatile machines. Most likely just studying the issue. + - operating the machine.
BMP-3f worthy heir to the USSR everything seems to be like a bunch.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Agree 5 and 37 - the difference is significant

And if you imagine the difference between the wheeled armored personnel carrier and the tracked infantry fighting vehicle that were made during the Soviet era and which is already in service with Indonesia (and for which they paid with palm oil)

17 BMP-3F, as of 2012 [27]. The first 17 BMP-3F under a 2007 contract worth $ 40 million were delivered in 2010

By the way, it’s cool and the contract 2007 delivery of the first part (and totally 37) in three years.

[sapran]

Kars there damn such a queue on the BMP-3f for 5-6 years waiting as a Lada in the USSR.
...Honestly.

[Kars]

Quote: sapran

Honestly.

I do not believe I do not believe.
Although if there is a shipment schedule I will look for the sake of interest.

[Alekseev]

Quote: svp67

Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...

Colleague and Kharkov classmate, my advice is not to enter into fruitless discussions with a "group of comrades". Here reason, logic, and your professionalism are nothing against the belligerent, albeit very far from the essence of the question, stubbornness and misunderstood "national pride", covered with beautiful pictures from newspapers. (Yandex pictures )
Here the situation is just like in the famous parable of Christ from the Sermon on the Mount. About throwing beads ... (That is, it’s not worthless to talk in vain about something or to prove something to someone who is not capable or does not want to understand or evaluate it properly)

[Kars]

Quote: Alekseev

do not engage in fruitless discussions with a "group of comrades." There is reason, and logic, and your professionalism is nothing,

And where does the listed quality come from? Would you show at least a couple of people that have lured over the past 5 years.

[sapran]

Personally, I will be pleased if someone goes to you. May be doing what he loves. Just how real it is ... Nizhny Tagil seemed somehow very gloomy to me But there is a taste and color .... flasters.

[svp67]

Quote: sapran

Personally, I will be pleased if someone goes to you ... Nizhny Tagil seemed very gloomy to me, but there is a taste and color ..

Not in Tagil, in Omsk, there now specialists are VERY necessary.

[sapran]

... But is such a Sho Barin gives the go-ahead for the restoration of production in Omsk or do they want to make a "remzavod" for sawing T-72 from it? If so then yes there is a process of "creative" work up to **** - mother.

[uhjpysq1]

))))) rather they will switch to leopards.) banderlogs like German junk

[tank64rus]

As I understand this machine is made to NATO standards. But having entered the EU, Ukraine will lose the remnants of its industry. If they give the Kharkov plant something to do at the mercy of future "owners", it will be to service the old "Leopards" that traitors in Ukraine and in Russia dream of. "Yatagan" is likely to remain in a single copy.

[wanderer_032]

An attempt by the Kharkov plant to win a vital contract for itself is likely to fail.
In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.
I think in the near future (if this goes on), the plant will go broke and close, that’s it.
The machine itself represents mainly those design decisions and developments that have not been implemented in the Union.
AZ of this type, for example, was planned to be installed during the development of ob.640 "Black Eagle" by the Omsk Design Bureau "Transmash".
I do not exclude that Kharkiv residents "borrowed" it from them.

[sapran]

Yes, yes. Borrowed ... what to borrow from the running layout and borrowing time? Given the type rather borrowed from Leclerc and began under the collapse of the Union.

[wanderer_032]

Work on ob.640 probably started back in the late 80s, after it went into a series of mods.T-80U, this very running layout in the mid 90s was not just a layout, but a full-fledged prototype.
I mean, much earlier than February 2000. First shown at the VTTV-97 exhibition in Omsk (1997).
It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower, which significantly distinguishes it from the Kharkov machine, plus completely new SLA and surveillance equipment, plus an AZ in the rear of the tower and a new gas turbine engine of 1500 hp.
I hope I clarified the situation.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

First shown at the VTTV-97 exhibition in Omsk (1997).

Leclerc was featured in 1994.

Quote: wanderer_032

It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower, which significantly distinguishes it from Kharkov

Where you read this. There is no information about the uninhabited tower of the Black Eagle

Quote: wanderer_032

I hope I clarified the situation.

I advise you to read all the same
http://btvt.narod.ru/3/640/640.htm

The hatch made the driver’s hatch, and the hatches, respectively, of the tank commander and gunner, were made in the tower. The tank crew seats in the inhabited compartment are equipped with adjustable seats: driver, tank commander and gunner. The seats can be adjusted to the marching and fighting positions, while the crew in the fighting position is located in the hull no higher than the level of the tower’s shoulder strap. In the seat position, the tank commander and the gunner are marching both in the hull and in the turret.

[wanderer_032]

I wrote that the work on its design began in the late 80s and early 90s (the fact that the French had a similar idea was not surprising, our work and their design bureau could go in parallel, our engineers aimed at improving the working conditions and protecting the crew, preserving the height of the car and the French made their tanks from scratch due to the experience of the wars in the Middle East and the Gulf (detonation of the BK in the T-72), the French made their tanks from scratch) the French did before because their country did not fall apart and there was no economic crisis; billions of francs.
And our engineers worked almost on sheer enthusiasm, because the collapse of the USSR began and the ensuing "delights" of delay and non-payment of salaries, etc.
I didn’t talk about the uninhabited tower, you just misunderstood me, I apologize for that.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

I wrote that work on its design began in the late 80s and early 90s (

You never know what you wrote - it’s too extensible. By the way, Leclerc, too, did not start developing in 94. And no sources mention the 80s, all saying 90, and most likely it's 93-95 years old.

Quote: wanderer_032

, our work and their design bureau could go in parallel, our engineers aimed to improve working conditions and protect the crew, maintaining the height of the machine and remove the ammunition from the hull in connection with the experience of wars in the Middle East and the Gulf

And what kind of experience was gained in the Middle East where the T-72 was used sporadically? And the Storm is so generally 91 years old.

Quote: wanderer_032

ours and their design bureaus could go in parallel

So these could go in parallel, but

Quote: wanderer_032

I do not exclude that Kharkiv residents "borrowed" it from them.

double and even triple standards.

Quote: wanderer_032

Billions of francs are swelled into Leclerc.

Do you think there is less swelling in Soviet tanks? At the same time, Leclerc is a tank of a new digital generation.

Quote: wanderer_032

I didn’t speak about the uninhabited tower, you just misunderstood me, I apologize for that.

Rather, you spelled it wrong
that by the way the campaign resulted in two deleted comments.

[wanderer_032]

As for the experience of wars, to whom it was supposed that those had information, and Chechnya affected (Grozny 94g.).
That the people in the design bureau had a desire to save lives by creating a "black eagle", so there is nothing to blame them for.
The government of the country, which should be more interested than the engineers did not allocate the necessary resources for this (probably in the struggle for power and on the top accounts of the elite they needed) committed another crime against their people.
I repeat, both the design bureau and the plant worked almost without money.
And the fact that it was easier for the KhKBTM to obtain such materials in Omsk can be indicated by the fact that these factories and design bureaus worked at one time in cooperation. And this time was the time for the production of T-80U in Omsk and T-80UD in Kharkov before the collapse of the Union.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

As for the experience of wars, to whom it was supposed that those had information, and Chechnya affected (Grozny 94g.).

This is even more so with the 80th years does not correlate.
and more

Quote: Kars

Most likely it is 93-95 years.

Quote: wanderer_032

That the people in the design bureau had a desire to save lives by creating a "black eagle", so there is nothing to blame them for.

Somewhere you saw the accusations?

Quote: wanderer_032

A government that needs to be more interested than engineers

It allocated money for the T-90 and not small, to bring the T-72 to the level of T-80U

Quote: wanderer_032

I repeat, both the design bureau and the factory worked almost without money

probably the Kharkov design bureaus simply filled up with money, and there they made cars based on the T-80UD better than the T-90, and still managed to sell it to a country that had not used Soviet weapons before.

Quote: wanderer_032

And the fact that KKBTM was easier to obtain such materials in Omsk can be indicated by the fact that these plants and design bureaus worked at one time in cooperation.

It was duck before the collapse of the USSR, and if you take your logic, then maybe Omsk got materials from Kharkov.

[wanderer_032]

And where did you get the HKBTM, is there an assumption?
Maybe it was the St. Petersburg people who muddied everything so that it was harder to find the ends?
They are Petersburgers, they could.
Still, the factories produced one car before the collapse, Kharkov with its engine only.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

And where did you get the HKBTM, is there an assumption?

Itself invented.

Quote: wanderer_032

Maybe it was the St. Petersburg people who muddied everything so that it was harder to find the ends?

Well, they themselves could not stir up the MZ on the T-80, but used the tower from the T-64

Quote: wanderer_032

They are Petersburgers, they could.

All the same, you should learn the history of Soviet tank building.

Quote: wanderer_032

And where did you get the HKBTM, is there an assumption?

To be serious, do you know what ammunition was manufactured for the Black Eagle? For separate charging or for which there simply wasn’t a unit in the USSR? The Yatagan / T-72-120 autoloader was specially designed for the NATO standard unitaries, and I’m sure that information on Leclerc in it was taken into account.

Quote: wanderer_032

Apparently, the St. Petersburg project should have been involved in the gas turbine engine, they probably had the main specialists on the engines

It turns out to be a project, but a finished sample? And there in the beginning of 90 it was very difficult, the land in Leningrad is very valuable.

[wanderer_032]

Under a 125mm shot, he was loaded into a tubular cartridge with a charge, when a shot is fired, the gun becomes for a minute. negative angle, the cassette with the shot is pulled out of the conveyor, reloading is performed, the empty cassette is pulled into the conveyor, the gun is ready to fire.
Moreover, the cartridge is a container for storing shots, when equipping the conveyor, it is enough to remove from the ends of the lid.
And why could not the Petersburgers?
It could very well.
Or maybe Omsk, the benefit is also where. KB is still working.
And also on enthusiasm.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

Under a shot of 125mm,

Why not 140 mm?

Quote: wanderer_032

And why could not the Petersburgers?
It could very well.

What is this conclusion based on?

Quote: wanderer_032

Or maybe Omsk, the benefit is also where. KB is still working.

What is Omsk?

and you’ll learn the history of tank building

[wanderer_032]

Thanks, I already know the story well.
And not 140 because 125.
Good photo, I have one too.
I also know that in the 60s there were experiments with gas turbine engines on the basis of the T-64 in KHKTM, so what of this, then Peter (Leningrad) was engaged in the project.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

Thanks, I already know the story well.

Does not look like it.

Quote: wanderer_032

And not 140 because 125.

prove it.

[Kars]

_______________?

[wanderer_032]

And you don’t need to prove which gun is in service, and they did it.
What a blurry photo though.
There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

And it’s not necessary to prove which gun is in service, and they did

So you can’t? Especially since it’s a promising tank, and Petersburgers made 152 mm tank guns)))

Quote: wanderer_032

What a blurry photo though.

What do not know what is in the photo?

Quote: wanderer_032

There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however

Oh well? Remembered Is-7 277?))))

[wanderer_032]

I mean about tank smoothbore.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

I mean about tank smoothbore.

Honestly, I don’t remember 130 smoothbore ones. And something tells me that the return of the smoothbore should not differ much from the rifled one. And 140 mm works reached the prototypes, despite the fact that they can be put into the same Yatagan with minimal alterations.

[wanderer_032]

I came across material, maybe in "equipment and weapons", I don't remember exactly, but I remember what I read.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: wanderer_032

There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however.

Tank "Object 292", armed with a 152mm gun (based on the T-80)

http://rosinform.ru/2013/07/08/armata-istoriya-sozdaniya-russkogo-perspektivnogo
-tanka /

[roller2]

Quote: wanderer_032

probably started back in the late 80s

Here is the same as SURE.

Quote: wanderer_032

the crew is located in the hull

But it was not possible to create a normal SLA and a monitoring system.

Since this sample was not available to Ukrainian designers, the Yatagan tank was a purely Ukrainian development.

And it was not a running model, but a finished product in 4 copies, and already in 2000.

And which of ob.640 is used now with you ??? Crazy AZ ?? And this is after 16 years ??

new gas turbine engine for 1500 hp

I haven’t heard something about this.

[Kars]

Quote: rolik2

And which of ob.640 is used now with you ??? Crazy AZ ??

Where is this crazy AZ used? On Tagil it is not, what is there with Armata is covered in darkness.

[wanderer_032]

Hde contract?
Time, such a garna machine.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

Hde contract?
Time, such a garna machine.

Well on Tagil, by the way, too.
And with tanks now all over the world there is a strain. Europeans are selling Leopards, it’s hard with such a burden. The Englishmen generally closed the tank factory in Leeds.

Quote: wanderer_032

But Abrams is the crown of creation directly and everything is good with him,

Why did you decide to remember Abrams? Nobody remembered him before you.

Quote: wanderer_032

And about hearing, you don’t need to

What exactly?

[wanderer_032]

Yes, Roller2 glowed something. A man came out under the Amer’s flag.
And about hearing him too (the question was about the gas turbine engine).
Therefore, he wrote.

[roller2]

Quote: wanderer_032

The man under the Amer’s flag spoke.

That you spit on these flags, go out from different computers here it throws different flags.
And so I'm local from Odessa

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

Yes, Roller2 glowed something. A man came out under the Amer’s flag.

Conditioned reflex?

Quote: wanderer_032

And about hearing him too (the question was about the gas turbine engine).

The tank is equipped with a new gas turbine engine with a capacity of more than 1500 hp.

and where is he? about him something is heard only in such a plan, even without a name.

[wanderer_032]

About the reflex, not without it.
Apparently the St. Petersburg project should have been involved in the gas turbine engine; they probably had the main specialists on the engines.
After all, the main design bureau still dealt with 80kami from scratch, and serial cars were also their brainchild up to 80U, and in Omsk there was a platform for running-in and testing (away from prying eyes), as well as additional production, consider the branch.

[builder]

Quote: wanderer_032

Hde contract?
Time, such a garna machine.

Actually not a very bad car. In my opinion, the best upgrade option for the T-72.

[builder]

Quote: stroitel

. In my opinion, the best option for upgrading the T-72.

[sapran]

Undoubtedly, all the developments on Yatagan are quite easy to adapt to a number of chassis and artillery systems ...
1. T-55-62
2 M48-60
3. T-64-72
4. Leopard 1
This is the difference in approach at KHKBTM and UVZ

[builder]

I understand the saying -Every sandpiper praises its swamp. But I don't understand the "sandpipers" scolding the swamp just because it is someone else's.

[wanderer_032]

In Tagil, they quickly noticed that in the new conditions, the Leningrad and Omsk plants with their machines are the first competitors in the market and hastened (not without the help of admin resources) to drown the idea of ​​gas turbine tanks (which, and this is not only my opinion, are more promising, t .k diesel almost exhausted the resource of modernization).
I had the opportunity to ask live questions to the tankers who exploited them. I heard only positive comments about the 80s.
Yes, they require higher qualifications (primarily mech. Water), but at the same time they have easier control and less load on the crew both on the march and in battle.
I personally had occasion to see these cars on the go, at the tankodrome, and I’ll say, compared to the 72nd obstacle overcoming speed, there is no comparison. And also the noise of the work.
Ob.640 was supposed to be a worthy replacement for 80k, but it is a pity that this did not happen.

[wanderer_032]

But Abrams is the crown of creation directly and everything is good with him, grandmothers pulled from the budget to develop and bring to serial production a half dozen years, then they pumped out the same amount of money for modifications, and it burns like everyone else from RPG-7 from around the corner , in Iraq a lot of them got up from the sand in the air filters, on the mines he tears off the rinks with goose-bumpers at a time.
Yes, this is a technique worth being proud of.
And about hearing, you don’t need to.

[wanderer_032]

Speaking of the spiraling ideas of the French.
If you think a little about what the situation was in the country and it smelled like collapse, then I think from our side it was no longer up to industrial espionage.
Interests and problems were different.
And intelligence worked for other purposes. By order of the party and government.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

Speaking of the spiraling ideas of the French.

Quote: wanderer_032

industrial espionage.

Why industrial espionage? There is enough open information on Leclerc. Moreover, it was shown at exhibitions. And not like the Black Eagle under a mas grid and from 500 meters.

By the way, in the photo something is difficult to notice that there is a new gas turbine engine

[wanderer_032]

Duc for that and wrapped up so that everything was hard to see.
In the photo, by the way, a running layout that was shown even before the VTTV-97.
In our region, they even sold vodka "black eagle" and it was 1995.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

In the photo, by the way, a running layout that was shown even before the VTTV-97.

Give a photo from the exhibition what is the problem.

Quote: wanderer_032

we in the region even sold vodka "black eagle" and it was 1995.

So that's where the name of the tank came from.

Quote: wanderer_032

Duc for that and wrapped up so that everything was hard to see.

And Leclerc showed without capes on IDEX 93

[sapran]

To be honest, I'm a little shocked by this discussion
Honestly, I do not see anything shameful in studying the history of world tank building (with the exception of a certain gap in the pattern of thinking)
and specifically according to this sample that the photo is one of my first works to identify the "desi" ... Running layout yes, but no more. And the fact that the turret is a low-profile gun of 135 mm, while for some authors 152 mm this is all from a series of "Wishlist" Yes There were works under the decline of the USSR on the topic "Boxer" and all design bureaus worked in this direction ... this is normal, not normal, then it turned out.

[wanderer_032]

The black eagle was made on a seven-track chassis, at 80ki six.
The body of the eagle is longer, but they could build at least one car.
They just hacked the project and it was all over.

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

The black eagle was made on a seven-track chassis, at 80ki six.

And so? There was no new chassis, the old one was boiled, then business.
Kharkov can also do these.

Quote: wanderer_032

They just hacked the project and it was all over.

Say thanks to UVZ

[sapran]

Read to me it seems interesting ...
http://forum.polismi.org/index.php?/topic/6270-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0
%B8%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1
%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%
B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA/

[Kars]

Quote: sapran

http://forum.polismi.

Hassle of fii.

[sapran]

We must always go from far away ... so as not to scare. Then you can advise BTVT.NAROD.RU and there a person will already go to the forums and the Hammer and the Boxer ...

[wanderer_032]

I can’t insert a photo, I don’t understand what happened before, in Yandex pictures there is a photo of the finished machine, it stands on the background of the workshop. You can see if there is a desire.

[sapran]

Please try. And then, in fact, I did not see a photo of a living car except the running layout. And this is unforgivable for me

[Kars]

Quote: wanderer_032

cars, against the background of the workshop

This? And how much is its filling visible?

[sapran]

Not Kars, I honestly expect another

[wanderer_032]

Yes, but I found it larger there on Yandex, they did complete the conveyor, it seems, but there are no new sights and other equipment on the machine.
Therefore, I apologize for not being able to insert them, and also for being wrong.
This is a running layout, albeit with a high degree of readiness.
Annoyingly. I bought it.

[builder]

Quote: wanderer_032

I can’t insert a photo, I don’t understand what happened before, in Yandex pictures there is a photo of the finished machine, it stands on the background of the workshop. You can see if there is a desire.

about this one?

[wanderer_032]

Yes. Thank you, there are larger ones on Yandex. You can see who wants to.

[builder]

Black Eagle Tank

[wanderer_032]

Informative link, I recommend reading to fans of armored vehicles.
Sapran special thanks to you.

[roller2]

Quote: wanderer_032

It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower

????????????

Seats for crew members are located in the tank body below the level of the tower. Access to them is through the hatches of the commander and gunner in the hull of the tower and the hatch of the driver in the hull of the tank. Crew seats are equipped with adjustable seats having two positions: marching and combat. When transferring the seats to the combat position, the crew is below the level of the tower’s shoulder strap. In the stowed position, the gunner and tank commander are located in the hull and in the tower

[uhjpysq1]

In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.))))))) Even the Turks understood this. )) only does not reach maydaunov)

[Kars]

Quote: uhjpysq1

)))))))) even the Turks understood this

It can be seen licking up, and show what kind of geopolitics you are?
The Turkish Tender was announced in 2000)))) when it was 5 years before the Maidan)))) but you can’t read the article, it’s not fate

[uhjpysq1]

) they just then knew it)))))

[Kars]

Quote: uhjpysq1

)simply

no it's just you))))))

[uhjpysq1]

)on their own people are not judged)))))

[Kars]

Quote: uhjpysq1

)on their own people are not judged)))))

why judge by yourself when there are your comments?

Quote: uhjpysq1

In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.))))))) Even the Turks understood this.

Especially regarding the 2000 tender.

[cth; fyn]

Of course it’s very impressive, but in the light of the events with the T-72B3 it’s very interesting how ergonomics are thought out, otherwise the equipment can be excellent, but it will not work effectively. It is also interesting what kind of review is provided by surveillance systems, well, and other important trifles.

[Argon]

Even without any light, this machine raises many questions: the first is the mass of the t-80ud 46t and the Yatagan 48t, despite the fact that the booked volume has grown significantly. Add a slightly increased power (and therefore weight) turret drive (stabilizer weight) The question is how much the weight of the armor / protective structures per unit of the booked volume has decreased in comparison with the original sample? the production of 120mm rounds, I don’t think that Turkey can afford it, let alone Ukraine. Third: how is the turret balancing carried out despite the fact that its mass changes significantly in operation (ammunition consumption)? At the same time, the effectiveness of protecting the crew from detonation factors of the ammunition the layout is very controversial.

[Kars]

Quote: Argon

not one manufacturer will give exact characteristics

Why characteristics if there is physically ammunition? And a cooperation agreement with Switzerland.

Quote: Argon

I don’t think it can afford Turkey, and even less so Ukraine.

They are 120 mm ammunition elementary sold.

Quote: Argon

and "Yatagana" 48 tons despite the fact that the booked volume has grown significantly.

The volume increased only in the area of ​​the feed MOH.

[Prohor]

1. 2 tons of armor is not enough to book a crazy box with AZ? And more volume has not grown anywhere.
2. So after all, you can just buy NATO ammunition.
3. 22 rounds in the AZ with BOPS - this is 400 kg, with OFS - 800 kilograms, not more, and at the other end of the tower - almost a 3-ton gun. There are probably no problems with balancing. And as for safety - riding on a grenade is much safer than inside.

[Kars]

_________________

[Argon]

I don’t comment on the ammunition due to the frivolity of the latter, about the reservation, the armor is not cardboard, there, at first glance, 1,2-1,5 cubic meters and 1,5 tons for such a volume is clearly not enough, add the weight of the inner armored wall, and the reserve for overall structural strength. With the balancing of the tower, the situation is as follows, on a de-energized T-80, an unprepared person turns the tower 3 turns, without visible effort (not counting a wet back), skill-training is required to turn the tower, if the machine is on an incline (here it all depends on the size of the latter). The heaviest, breech part of the gun with rolling / rolling action is located almost in the center of the tower. And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the "Yatagan" is 400 kg then 800 kg then 0 kg, but the fact that they are there, that is, they are not, while it is necessary to ensure stable characteristics of the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives, so that the tower does not turn arbitrarily in the direction "from the mountain", and all these notions require mass and reserves of power That's about security, my dear Prokhor wrote very coolly, indeed, in the event of a grenade explosion, the effect will be the same. Initially, such a layout is designed not to protect against detonation of the HE shell, but against propellant ignition, given that Western tank guns use unitary cartridges, you can say from the "behind-the-barrel shot" (the "Abrams" has no HE shells at all). If you calculate a tower of this size for the simultaneous detonation of 20-30 (yes at least 5) HE shells 120mm, with the provision of a directional retraction of the blast wave, and even provide local strength (ballistic protection) of such a design, then the rest of the layout (because it will no longer be a tank) we need to make of balsa in order to fit into 70 tons.

[sapran]

1. Abrams already has a HE shell.
2. What type of tower on the T-80? (balanced or unbalanced) ... then repeat the train of your thoughts on the turns. (about three turns we leave on your conscience)
3. if it doesn’t complicate, bring a photo or documentary evidence of the death of the crew when the tank was defeated in a niche (honestly, maybe I missed that to ensure survivability)
4. Please decide for yourself with the concept of "Detonation 20-30 OF" I honestly doubt that you clearly understand what is happening and in what sequence.
5. No, and in principle it is difficult to get a car that will proudly bear the title "invulnerable", but there is an opportunity to get a car with a set of measures where the chance of surviving the crew will be higher.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Argon

The heaviest, breech part of the gun with rolling / rolling action is located almost in the center of the tower. And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the Yatagan has 400kg or 800kg or 0kg, but that they are there. that is not, at the same time it is necessary to provide stable characteristics to the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives, so that the tower does not turn arbitrarily in the direction "from the mountain", and all these notions require mass and power reserves.

The gun is balanced at the mount. That is, in front of the tower (almost on the shoulder strap + 2,5 tons). The most powerful tower reservation (cheekbones) is also located there. In general, there is no balance as current in the tower of the teshek. If not mistaken, the weight of the tower is 13-14 tons. The counterweight as an ammunition kit (800kg?) Makes the tower more balanced, but it does not change the overall picture much.

[Kars]

Quote: Argon

I do not comment on the ammunition due to the frivolity of the latter,

What are you talking about? Do you not know that Ukraine has access to 120 mm NATO ammunition? What 120 mm gun, like 140 mm, was made in cooperation with Swiss companies?

Quote: Argon

the armor is not cardboard, there is at first glance 1,2-1,5 cubic meters and 1,5 tons for such a volume is clearly not enough,

How do you interpret the volume of your reservation directly? Are you sure you can?

Quote: Argon

And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the Yatagan has 400kg or 800kg or 0kg, but that they are not there, and it is necessary to ensure stable characteristics of the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives so that the tower

Are you aware that the sample was put up for tender? And you think that you are the smartest and when did the tank construct the designers did not think about it?

Quote: Argon

.Here about security, kind Prokhor wrote very cool, indeed in case of a grenade explosion the effect will be the same

You misunderstood dear Prokhor.

Quote: Argon

a significantly similar arrangement is not designed to protect against detonation of HE shells, but from the ignition of a propellant, given that Western tank guns use unitary cartridges,

Who told you such nonsense? Does Leclerc have no OFS? Or Japanese Type 90? At the same time, unitary ammunition with a metal sleeve is much safer.

Quote: Argon

If you can count a tower of a similar size for simultaneously detonating 20-30 (yes at least 5) HE shells 120mm

There are 22 ammunition in the automated ammunition depot. Nobody canceled the physics of the explosion, the explosion is in the direction of least resistance. And the crew is more likely to survive the detonation of the ammunition in the stern down than in the carousel under the floor of the crew compartment.

[Prohor]

The situation is hilarious - the Cossacks forge scimitars for Janissaries!
He would tell who is in the 17-18 centuries. in the Zaporizhzhya Sich!

[GastaClaus69]

Have you heard of the Trans-Danish Sech?

[Patton5]

In in .... they would call the tank Janissaries))) To remind about the centuries-old history of "cooperation"

[tank 34]

Judging by the characteristics in a first approximation, everything is not bad. However, like everyone else in reality, another question. T-90 T-84 ALL THIS IS THE RESULT OF SOVIET DEVELOPMENTS IN THE MIDDLE 70'S OF THE 20TH CENTURY

[sapran]

And yes, no doubt and no at the same time. The concept has undergone changes, with both sides (UVZ and KHKBM) going in the same direction along parallel paths (periodically throwing jambs at each other) But this is not what was conceived under the USSR.

[tchoni]

Guys, for your country to buy YOUR equipment, you must first give a loan to the buyer to buy your equipment and then at least ALL of the T-34 park located on the pedestals will be bought from YOU.
The Jews gave a loan - bought them m 60 - shaggy year of release.
Dalits were given - leopards are buying.
And it’s good for sellers - they support the domestic manufacturer and clear the way for new equipment and it’s not bad for buyers - without investing a damn to get at least something. A loan. You can give in kind. There to provide an airdrome - Iraq or, let's say what kind of bomb Syria. Well, either to block the Straits or simply to NATO rightly yoke from the spot. - In general, there are options.

[sapran]

..And Pan-Ataman has a gold reserve of e ?! Everything is correctly said by you, in fact, this is the integral part of the success of China in Africa, Russia in Algeria (it is possible that Peru will be crushed as well).

[roller2]

Quote: svp67

There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally

The tank building school in Russia has died, nothing dramatic has been proposed over the past 10 years, the lack of competition has completely degraded the design idea at UVZ.
The scimitar was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT THEY ARE DIFFERENTLY DIFFERENT ???????

[sapran]

They are very different respected ... one goes as a development of thought on the modernization of the existing park but in a new beautiful package, the second attempt is a universal offer to the taste of the customer. Their approach is a bit different. The topic "banana" was closed in the mid-90s as a half measure, but in Russia it was presented as a "breakthrough" (probably exactly what broke through). But "Armata" ... I will cry in 2015 if I correctly imagine what they are building ...

[Kars]

Quote: rolik2

The scimitar was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT THEY ARE DIFFERENTLY DIFFERENT ???????

Yatanan is better if you discard an electronics which simply physically was not in 2000.

[nick-name]

Quote: rolik2

The tank building school in Russia has died, nothing dramatic has been proposed over the past 10 years, the lack of competition has completely degraded the design idea at UVZ. Yatagan was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT DOES THEY DIFFERENTLY ???????

Enchanting, and most importantly illiterate.

[Horde]

that’s what Yatagan doesn’t like, it’s as if they were robbing him with an ax, and these pendants from the tower to the platform look ugly in general and the Ukrainians still think of defeating something. Is it really impossible to do it humanly?

[roller2]

Quote: Horde

and these hangings from the tower to the platform generally look ugly

Hanging here too

the main thing is not beautiful and glamorous, but functional.

[Horde]

Quote: rolik2

Hanging here too

it’s not about these that on Merkava these ones look quite organically, but about those that are in front on the yatagage, one shield below, another above, the third sideways, no technical aesthetics ...

[roller2]

Quote: Horde

but about those that are in front on the yatagaga, one shield is lower, the other is higher

Same on T-72 Slingshot

[Horde]

Quote: rolik2

Same on T-72 Slingshot

Well, what do you like? this is a complete lack of taste ...

[Jake danzels]

Yes, yes, yes, finally the sense of taste will be in BTT, we will paint the tanks at the biathlon in pink, the unloading is blue, the guns are blue, the tracks are green.

Horde these "pendants" are functional and they just do not "hang", learn mate, then you will not talk about "sense of taste".

Divorced .....(deleted by moderator) Earrings Zverevi

[Kars]

Quote: Horde

from zhesh any arguments do not work, can you find such pendants in t90 either a tiger or a leopard?

Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.
The best Soviet tank

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.

Let's! Burn the uterus with napalm!
Can you tell me why these rubber mugs hang? And then I can tell, if not in the know

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

And then I can tell, if not in the know

Why didn’t he immediately suggest?

And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

Why didn’t he immediately suggest?

I thought - what if a friend is in the know? But no campaign But do not be shy, ask, increase knowledge)))

Quote: Kars

And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A

Has the Moment glue been used again? Or was the self-propelled kerosene tank capable of something unknown, which ordinary mortals like me are not aware of? Kindly share sacred knowledge!

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

But do not be shy, ask, increase knowledge)))

So I ask

Quote: nick-name

Has the Moment glue been used again?

You said it so confidently that behind the words you can see your great experience in using glue not for its technical purpose?

Quote: nick-name

the self-propelled kerosene tank knew something unknown

What can I say T-90 threw off Russian tank building for 20 years, there is nothing to be done.

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

So I ask

These rubber mugs, an attempt to reduce the EPR of the tank, which, against the background of the rest, looks like an attempt to hide behind the FIGURE sheet.

Quote: Kars

behind the words you can see your great experience in using glue not for its technical purpose?

No, often his admirers come across

Quote: Kars

What can I say T-90 threw off Russian tank building for 20 years, there is nothing to be done.

Amen!
More specific, please, more specific! Or "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes true"? © Goebbels
And by the way, in the above photo, the rubber apron on the T-80U is necessary so that the dust on the MTO does not throw, because the turbine breaks from this

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

These rubber mugs, an attempt to reduce the EPR of the tank

They made fun)))) will there still be an attempt?

Quote: nick-name

No, often his admirers come across

oh well do not be shy, you will not hide your personal experience, especially after reducing the EPR)))

Quote: nick-name

And by the way, in the above photo, the rubber apron on the T-80U is necessary so that the dust on the MTO does not throw, because the turbine breaks from this

By the way, too, no, the T-80 and without aprons go and nothing. And the dust tower also interferes with the risin tower?

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

They made fun)))) will there still be an attempt?

I tried))) And now I'm waiting for the story of how these rubber bands cumulative shells beat off

Quote: Kars

oh well do not be shy, you will not hide your personal experience, especially after reducing the EPR)))

Why does the word glue, and especially the glue "Moment", begin to give you such unhealthy excitement?

Quote: Kars

By the way, too, no, the T-80 and without aprons go and nothing.

Otozh! No wonder it was purged in TsAGI like an airplane! Do not forget about the air intake at the stern of the tower, and yes it drives))) the tank really without analogues

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

I tried))) And now I’m waiting for the story how these rubber bands deflect cumulative shells

On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.

Quote: nick-name

Why does the word glue, and especially the glue "Moment", begin to give you such unhealthy excitement?

But I do not mention him, unlike you first, so you constantly think about him and remember)))

Quote: nick-name

Otozh! No wonder it was purged in TsAGI like an airplane! Do not forget about the air intake at the stern of the tower, and yes it drives))) the tank really without analog

The air intake at the stern of the tower?
So what? It is also an additional protection.

The engine used a "cyclonic" method of cleaning the air from dust. Highly efficient combined direct-flow cyclone with a central conical grille (the most important element of the air cleaner) with an air cleaning efficiency of up to 98,5%. However, unfiltered dust particles still settle in the flow path. To remove them, when the tank is moving in especially difficult conditions, a procedure is provided for vibrating the blades and blowing the flow path with compressed air.
The air cleaner and radiator unit is mounted transverse to the tank body and is attached to the front support of the engine monoblock. The air for the cleaning system is drawn in through the mesh-covered blinds on the roof of the engine compartment. Cleaning and cooling fans are driven by the main engine.
The improvement of the GTD-1000T engine took place in stages in the direction of increasing its power by increasing the temperature of the gases without increasing the overall dimensions. At first the engine was boosted to 1100 hp. (GTD-1000ТФ) and installed on the tanks T-80Б, Т-80БВ and T-80У of the early release. In 1990, the production of the T-80Y tank began with a new version of the GTD-1250 engine with 1250 horsepower.When the question arose about additional measures to provide the engine with cleaner air, the most realistic option seemed to be a clean air intake device at the height of the tank tower.
the design was adopted for implementation, which is an oval, expanding at the bottom of the box, mounted on the tower using brackets. In the lower part of the box had a two-position drive sealing device, providing two positions of docking with entrance blinds. During normal operation, sealing was provided only with the help of a soft collar along the entire contour of the blinds. This docking did not impede the rotation of the tower and the production of cannon fire. And when overcoming water barriers, an additional seal was introduced into the work, providing sealing of the dock. With this device, the tank was able to overcome water obstacles up to 1,8 m deep.
The advantage of the T-80U is the availability of an auxiliary power unit GTA-18А, which allowed to significantly reduce the total fuel consumption for 1 operating hours of the tank systems ~ 60 l / h (the total operating time of the tank is - 50% in place and 50% in motion).

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.

So what? Half a meter of air is enough to disperse the godfather. jet? Armored Air - the hope of the Ukrainian tank industry?

Quote: Kars

But I do not mention him, unlike you first

If people bears nonsense, there are two options, either, or high ... I can’t call a stranger a fool ...

Quote: Kars

The air intake at the stern of the tower? And so? At the same time, it is also an additional protection.

And then there’s a whole flap of text in which they are trying to at least somehow ennoble the miserable single-stage air purification system ... which still does not cope with its main task.
Yes! Can I have an example of ammunition to protect against which this air intake will help? From a baby slingshot?

[sapran]

While nonsense flow from YOU and it is sad.
Do you have any idea about the process of forming a cumulative jet? or is it all so sad?
I do not justify Kaprs in ego explanations on the T-80U, since there the designers had to compromise, as a result they got a very uneconomical machine that can be equated with a "barrel of kerosene". but I will emphasize once again that as the task was set, so it was completed ...

[nick-name]

Quote: sapran

While nonsense flow from YOU and it is sad.

Do not grieve your heart

Quote: sapran

Do you have any idea about the process of forming a cumulative jet?

Imagine the formation process. So, let’s tell how half a meter of air will "kill" the godfather. stream, otherwise one merry kars is not enough

[sapran]

they didn’t hold out a bit, but still I’ll try to convey some useful information to you ... if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative stream 1,7-2,3 times (the caliber of the bch also affects the dependence , funnel lining (material), funnel angle)
By putting material with different densities and atomic weights on the path of the cumulative jet, we additionally achieve a reduction in the energy of the jet and its defocusing into individual fragments.
so please do not confuse the classic cumulative jet with the "impact cannonball" variety
oki

[nick-name]

Quote: sapran

if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative stream 1,7-2,3 times (here the caliber of the warhead, the funnel lining (material), the funnel angle also depend on the dependence)

Who told you such heresy ???
Forget this nonsense like a nightmare

Quote: sapran

By placing material with different densities and atomic weights on the path of the cumulative jet

AND? How does air begin to be with different atomic weights? Or does a piece of rubber solve everything?

Quote: sapran

so please do not confuse the classic cumulative jet with the "impact cannonball" variety

Since when did the impact core become a kind of cumulative jet ???

[sapran]

Since you started to come up with new physics for the cumulative jet ... If it is not clear what I wrote to you, please describe what you know about these processes. I do not shame and ask a century live a century learn

[nick-name]

Quote: sapran

Since you started to invent new physics for a cumulative jet ...

Fear God! I didn’t invent anything! UYA and Kstruya are completely different things. UYA is essentially an armor-piercing shell

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

So what? Half a meter of air is enough to disperse the godfather. jet?

)))))))) throw glue urgently)))

Quote: nick-name

If people bears nonsense, there are two options, either, or stoned ... I can’t call a stranger a fool

What they would call someone someone would try to prove that they themselves are smart and that you know)))

Quote: nick-name

And then a whole trash of text, in which they are trying to at least somehow ennoble the miserable single-stage air purification system ...

)))) Just so miserable))

Quote: nick-name

. which still does not cope with its main task.

Tank doesn’t drive? Do not want to read how T-80U showed himself at the Greek tender?

Quote: nick-name

Yes! Can I have an example of ammunition to protect against which this air intake will help?

))))) from the same as Reshetka)))

[Kars]

________________________

[nick-name]

It was necessary to stick the stronghold with eggs
And then pallets for pallets are only installed on light armored vehicles

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

light armored vehicles

)))))))))))))))

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

)))))))))))))))

Iiiii? It seems you could understand the irony in my post. Why even post these pictures? What do they prove?

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Iiiii? It seems you could understand the irony in my post

in your post you can understand only their uselessness, and your low theoretical level.

[nick-name]

Hand face
So will you crap all for an unknown purpose to post?

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Hand face

Better to face on the table and with overclocking,

Quote: nick-name

with an incomprehensible purpose to post?

it's not my fault that you are so not smart that you don’t understand))

[sapran]

Kars is very difficult to communicate with a person in different languages.
1. Please nick-name explain what you mean by a cumulative stream
2. Why (by what misconception) The screen as a means of passive protection is used on various BT objects on different continents.
3. Describe cases when the screen is in favor when to the detriment.
So far, in this way we will try to approach general concepts, and there maybe we will find a language of understanding.

[nick-name]

Quote: sapran

. Please nick-name explain what you understand

And then the whole list ...
Am I hiring a tutor for you?
At the moment, you, together with Kars, are posting some garbage with a smart look. Why I MUST (attention MUST !!) prove that "shit" is not tasty? And in response to me - "Have you tried?" AND?

[nick-name]

In light of the last post, especially for especially "tight" ones - how would covering with rubber, pallets, egg grates, etc., help prevent this?

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

from eggs, etc., would help prevent this?

It would help, well understood by the tankers of the warring countries.

Quote: nick-name

especially for especially "tight"

Well, even in such an epithet you’re flattering yourself.

[Kars]

)))))))))))))))

[nick-name]

This is such a facepalm ...
Kars, write a letter to the HCMB, you have discovered a new in the protection of BTVT

PS I just can’t understand why, WHY do you post these pictures? Write in Russian - what is the meaning of your messages? What do you want to prove ???

PSS notice, do not empty the canister It’s clear to the Syrians, unlike the armored experts, that the air will not save

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

This is such a facepalm ...
Kars, write a letter to the HCMB, you have discovered a new in the protection of BTVT

Failspam is your last name - and the photo shows artisanal protection against cumulative ammunition when factory protection is unavailable.

Quote: nick-name

PS I just can’t understand why, WHY do you post these pictures?

Well, it's not my fault that you are hard-to-reach.

Quote: nick-name

PSS to notice, they are wrapping them around with empty cans. It’s clear to the Syrians, unlike the armored experts, that air will not save

they encircle with anything, and there is also a fozduh. And anti-cumulative screens save from the COP

[Kars]

)))))))))))))))

[Kars]

))))))))))))))))

[nick-name]

Your mother ... Kars, well, why put on display all your wretchedness?
I do not argue that the CS detonated 100500 meters away from the tank is safe.
But NAFIG to post the T-72 (which, in your opinion, themselves should be burned from hopelessness, so do not meet the standards of the Internet sofa)))) WITH GRILLES !!! speech is for rubber mugs
Kars, let's throw the vial (it’s even scary to remember about glue, then this will begin ))), because it carries in the wrong direction

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

I do not argue that the CS detonated 100500 meters away from the tank is safe.

Did I ever talk about security?

Quote: nick-name

But NAFIG to post the T-72 (which, in your opinion, themselves should be burned from hopelessness, so do not meet the standards of the Internet sofa)))) WITH GRILLES !!! speech is for rubber mugs

Well, you didn’t like the rubber mugs that were used during the war in Yugoslavia, though they were put almost everywhere, even on the T-34

Quote: nick-name

to be wretched?

You don’t have to project yourself on me, clown.

Quote: nick-name

Kars, let's throw the vodka

I don’t remember the last time I drank vodka, probably 6 or 7 years ago.

And the clown re-read my main comment.

Quote: Kars

Quote: nick-name
I tried))) And now I’m waiting for the story how these rubber bands deflect cumulative shells
On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.

[nick-name]

Frankly, I’ve got a little bit of it from the stream of consciousness that you threw at me. Porridge in your head is noble. Well, it's time to put the stubborn again in his own kaki!

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Well, it's time to put the stubborn again in his own kaki!

Are you about yourself in the third person? And you can’t get out of them.

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

)))))))) throw glue urgently)))

Yes, I say! Share your sacred knowledge like godfather. a jet piercing half a meter of steel cannot penetrate gum and half a meter of air! Start, do not limit yourself in anything

Quote: Kars

)))) Just so miserable))

If the system does not cope with the functions assigned to it, is it outstanding?

Quote: Kars

Tank doesn’t drive? Do not want to read how T-80U showed himself at the Greek tender?

Rides, for this it was necessary to block a small barn at the stern of the tower. And in especially dusty conditions, put the OPVT pipes ... Beauty and nothing more! And in Greece, yes, I’ve excellently left - I’ve broken (((

Quote: Kars

))))) from the same as Reshetka)))

Well, thank you! In the morning so make fun I would first find out how the gratings work, and in what percentage of cases they help, and then talk about gum and cumulative jets

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Share your sacred knowledge like godfather. a jet piercing half a meter of steel cannot penetrate gum and half a meter of air! Start, do not limit yourself in anything

You really stoned the glue))) on the basis of half a meter of air, the whole concept of anti-cumulative screens is strung.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1
%83%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%
80% D0% B0% D0% BD

When a cumulative ammunition hits the screen, it is blown up before meeting with the main armor of the tank, as a result of which the formed cumulative stream flies a considerable distance in the air before reaching the armor of the tank, and its disintegration occurs, as a result of which the penetration ability of the ammunition decreases sharply.

Quote: nick-name

If the system does not cope with the functions assigned to it, is it outstanding?

Prove that she does not cope.

Quote: nick-name

Rides, for this it was necessary to fence a small barn at the stern of the tower

Without it, it also rides, and much better than the T-90 without a barn)) which does not bother anyone, and is an additional protection.

Quote: nick-name

I would first find out how the gratings work, and in what percentage of cases they help,

The percentage of the box will be better. And each percentage is an increase in the chances of survival)))

Quote: nick-name

And then pallets for pallets are only installed on light armored vehicles

Well, people are fighting and trying to give themselves any additional chances)))

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

You really stoned glue))

He’s more and more convinced that he has stepped on glue on your sore spot, but there will be a request - calm down, it’s not even funny anymore.

Quote: Kars

on the basis of half a meter of air, the whole concept of anti-cumulative screens is built.

In fact, the concept of anti-cumulative screens is based on the fact that the barrier is deformed by a cumulative funnel, and there is no formation of cum. jets. Half a meter of air will not scatter anything and really will not reduce it.
ps link to wiki does not work.

Quote: Kars

Prove that she does not cope.

Why prove it? In conditions of severe dust, it is necessary to install optvt pipes, for T-80U in general, additional. screwed the barn on the tower. What's this? Cope?

Quote: Kars

Without it, it also rides, and much better than the T-90 without a barn)) which does not bother anyone, and is an additional protection.

Yeah ... I'm not funny anymore, so much hellish dope in one sentence. T-80 fuel reserve of 2,4 tons, range of 400 km. T-90 fuel reserve of 1,7 tons. Cruising range of 550 km. So eat fuel, he should fly, not ride. And by the way, this barn, coupled with the track-mounted tanks, significantly reduces the stock of transported spare parts. The extra 300 liters of fuel in the BO significantly add survivability to the T-80

Quote: Kars

The percentage of the box will be better. And each percentage is an increase in the chances of survival)))

HAND FACE!!! see above. well read less wiki

Quote: Kars

Well, people are fighting and trying to give themselves any additional chances)))

Enlighten the dear man, from which the palette of compressed sawdust will count, I am silent about the gum - the armored air is your campaign

[sapran]

God, what a bad case .. Are you probably inattentive? I gave you the answer above not on the basis of the wiki, but on the basis of field tests conducted at the KVTIU (KISV). The destruction of the cumulative warhead is one of the options for counteraction. Here you and the mechanical destruction of the funnel by means of a screen wire, a directed explosion (of damaging elements) KAZ.
And here is the result of the action of the screen on the jet itself !!!!

[nick-name]

Quote: sapran

God what a bad case

I cannot but agree, the case is really difficult. Suddenly it turned out that 0,5m. AIR is equivalent to a block of modern dynamic protection of the "relic" type

Quote: sapran

I gave you the answer above not on the basis of a wiki, but on the basis of field tests conducted at the KVTIU (KISV)

Give at least a reference to this study, very interested. As I understand it, the research institute began to know about it. Howe know the roofing felts, they forgot the roofing felts, but they don’t want to give recommendations on increasing the armor resistance of tanks from the COP by 2 times

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

... Suddenly it turned out that 0,5m. AIR is equivalent to a block of modern dynamic protection of the "relic" type

Can you confirm this comparison with a quote? Or did you sniff glue and rave?

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

or did you sniff glue and rave?

You are really a parrot Come up with something of your own, I’m saying I'm tired of it.

Quote: Kars

Can you confirm this comparison with a quote?

I can

Quote: sapran

if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative jet 1,7-2,3 times

and now let's look at the light of the Research Institute of Steel here:
http://www.niistali.ru/defence/armoureddefence?start=8
I quote:The installation of integrated dynamic protection on tanks increases the cumulative resistance by 1,5 ... 1,8 times(here the truth is for contact 5, but nonetheless! Ukrainian armored air was more vigorous
But let's get back to our rams:

Quote: Kars

Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.

Quote: Kars

And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A

Please provide a detailed answer for each passage. Why a misunderstanding? Who reached out to the T-80U, in what parameters does the T-90 lag behind the T-80 and cannot catch up?
Or is it so, voices in the head whispered?

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Come up with something of your own, I’m saying I'm tired of it.

Your personal problems. And throw the glue.

Quote: nick-name

if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative jet 1,7-2,3 times
and now let's look at the light of the Research Institute of Steel here:
http://www.niistali.ru/defence/armoureddefence?start=8
I quote: The installation of built-in dynamic protection on tanks increases the anti-cumulative resistance in 1,5 ... 1,8

That is, do you identify attenuation with anti-cumulative resistance? Yes, and not Relic))) And by the way, how do you explain the presence of anti-cumulative ekrons on modern tanks?

Quote: nick-name

then what did reach the T-80U, in what parameters does the T-90 lag behind the T-80 and cannot catch up?

And you take and compare the characteristics of the T-80U 1985 and T-90

And the T-90 was pulled by replacing the OMS with the OMS from the T-80. That might have been known. And in fact, if you decide to open your eyes and read at least some monographs, you might even catch up to exceed the T-80U level only by T -90A with a new engine and a new folding tower.
About Nii Steel)))

Nevertheless, a solution exists and it was invented a long time ago - anti-cumulative screens. The properties of the screens as protection against cumulative ammunition are based on the fact that when a cumulative projectile hits this screen, it burst before meeting with the tank’s armor, as a result of which the cumulative jet formed before flying to the tank’s armor flew a considerable distance. When moving in the air, the jet decayed, as a result of which its penetration ability sharply decreased.

http://btvt.narod.ru/4/defence.htm
http://www.krivda.net/books/s._s._burov-konstrukciya_i_raschet_tankov_-__4.proti
vokumulyativnaya_i_protivoatomnayazacshita_tanka_7

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

And throw the glue.

Ass durrrrak))))

Quote: Kars

That is, do you identify attenuation with anti-cumulative resistance?

Yes (but you can shake the foundations of the universe )))

Quote: Kars

And by the way, how do you explain the presence of anti-cumulative ekrons on modern tanks?

So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and 160 centimeters of steel. (and Yes! undermining the COP earlier than the goal is important, but not half a meter!)

Quote: Kars

And you take and compare the characteristics of the T-80U 1985 and T-90

Compare. Have not found. Waiting for at least something from your side. If so you insist, probably in the know something that the rest do not know

Quote: Kars

And the T-90 was pulled by replacing the OMS with the OMS from the T-80. It might have known.

MSA from the T-80 ??? For instance? (I'm already silent that the phrase is initially worthy of an idiot)))

Quote: Kars

T-80U turned out only on the T-90A with a new engine and a new folding tower.

I’m asking you to explain which post - WHAT did you surpass? Can I be more specific ????
In response, only slurred howls

Quote: Kars

About Nii Steel)))

For what I love SORROWS, because they are ridiculous by their stupidity see above my answer.
for the last picture there was already a conversation, well, and I would be ashamed to post such a thing
PS When do you finally explain how the T-80 is superior to the T-90? How much can you pull the cat by the tail ???

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and

And at what angle for this you need to shoot on the side screens? This type is almost parallel)))))

Quote: nick-name

I’m asking you to explain which post - WHAT did you surpass?

T-90A armored new welded turret.

Quote: nick-name

for the last picture there was already a conversation, well, and I would be ashamed of such a post

You’d better be ashamed of delirium under the glue of Nesi. But how to quote Nii Steel so you go ahead and with the song, and they poked so whimpering in the same NII Steel)))

Quote: nick-name

MSA from the T-80 ??? For instance? (I'm already silent that the phrase is initially worthy of an idiot)))

Yes, I understand that the phrase is worthy of you, I understand)))

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

And at what angle for this you need to shoot on the side screens? This type is almost parallel)))))

What does it have to do with it in parallel? Or perpendicular? The bottom line is different. Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice

Quote: Kars

T-90A armored new welded turret.

Please, my dear, provide information about the T-72B's smaller armor protection relative to the T-80U

Quote: Kars

and the cone in the same research institute Steel poked so whimpered))

Without even knowing what "koknos" is and who poked me THIS somewhere, I’ll answer, just collect your will into a fist and formulate the question.
If I answer with proofs, will you admit that you are just ""?

Quote: Kars

Yes, I understand that the phrase is worthy of you, I understand))

Kars, you are like a child do you want to prove to me that at 187 and 195 you had to pull something somewhere? because they didn’t know how?

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

What does it have to do with it in parallel? Or perpendicular? The bottom line is different. Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice

Well, you think about it - and re-create the trajectory.

Quote: nick-name

So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and centimeters of 160 steel

)))))))

Quote: nick-name

Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice

He will notice that he will definitely notice. And at the same time, the use of cumulative ammunition on the battlefield is not ruled out.

Quote: nick-name

Please, my dear, provide information about the T-72B's smaller armor protection relative to the T-80U

))) it is well known

Quote: nick-name

Without even knowing what "koknos" is

like a nose

Quote: nick-name

If I answer with proofs, will you admit that you are just ""?

Just try your proofs on the research institute of steel you yourself already ridiculed.

Quote: nick-name

do you want to prove to me that at 187 and 195 you had to pull something somewhere? because they didn’t know how?

I don’t want to prove, but I PROVEN that the T-90 was replaced by the T-80U

[Lesnik]

Hello kars maybe enough to mock a guy?

[Kars]

Quote: Forestman

maybe enough to mock a guy?

And what to do? Then come to go to politics)))
The expert explained why the "flying" T-80 tank is stronger than the modern T-90
http://ria.ru/video/20110708/398994723.html#

there are journalistic funny moments))

[Lesnik]

Now I will go along, laugh

[Lesnik]

Honestly, I'm not a tanker, but the crew is still a pity - changing torsions is not a problem, unlike the spine

[nick-name]

Come on! But from this I have only positive things, it’s so nice to put the stubborn in his own shit

[Lesnik]

Quote: nick-name

Come on! But from this I have only positive things, it’s so nice to put the stubborn in his own shit

You're wrong insults are not sports

[Jake danzels]

while looking like a flawed person?

[Kars]

Quote: Horde

those who learn world tank schools such dangling accessories can’t stand everything firmly

Believe me that the segment covering the bottom of the stern leaf hangs on the torsion bar / loop.?

[Horde]

Quote: Kars

Believe me that the segment covering the bottom of the stern leaf hangs on the torsion bar / loop.?

I’m not even talking about the technical purpose of these rubber petals, since they probably set it for something, it’s about the IMPRESSION that they make the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and gives an UNFAVORABLE impression. It’s necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...

[Kars]

Quote: Horde

PRINTING that they produce a TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and produces UNFAVORABLE

This is just your personal fantasy.

[Horde]

Quote: Kars

This is just your personal fantasy.

I think not only my imagination, but also Turkish ...

[Kars]

Quote: Horde

I think not only my imagination, but also Turkish ...

Do you think the Turks are making their Altai to make a favorable impression?

[Lesnik]

Quote: Horde

The IMPRESSION that they produce the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and produces an UNFAVORABLE impression. It is necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...

I neighing - my mood improved need more such comments

[Jake danzels]

Quote: Horde

I’m not even talking about the technical purpose of these rubber petals, since they probably set it for something, it’s about the IMPRESSION that they make the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and gives an UNFAVORABLE impression. It’s necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...

Watch in motion, where do they hang out?
BM Bulat - Mugs are the same size as on Slingshot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PIYcIXT5lo

Scimitar -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0tDvqF_Gg

[ko88]

The scimitar is one of the best tanks in the world, and there’s nothing to argue about and argue here, because the Kharkov school of tank building was the leading one in the USSR and one of the best in the world.

[artgrad]

But it’s weak in such a way to announce a tender for the construction of an AvtoVAZ plant for the production of a great car!

[legionary]

So they are already being collected in some countries, maybe of course not 100%, but still.

[legionary]

I don’t understand, and where is the new tank as many here want to present. The same tank "multipurpose" T-64, T-72, T-80 and developments from the times of the USSR, which successfully got the opportunity to be embodied in metal and later in production.
This is what I really like. The Ukrainians, unlike the Russians, are trying, doing, trying and offering potential and non-potential buyers to offer products that may interest them even by going to various incredible tricks just to make money, and the Russians will not be given a kick "top" il from somewhere else will not even scratch.

[nick-name]

Quote: Legioner

This is what I really like. The Ukrainians, unlike the Russians, are trying, doing, trying and offering potential and non-potential buyers to offer products that may interest them even by going to various incredible tricks just to make money, and the Russians will not be given a kick "top" il from somewhere else will not even scratch.

The number of sold Russian armored vehicles confirms your maxim 100%

[svp67]

Quote: Legioner

This is what I really like. Ukrainians, unlike Russians, try, do, try and offer potential and non-potential buyers

To say such a thing, one must know the true state of affairs, and this is such - Ukraine was in the top ten countries selling armored vehicles, only because it SELLED, often at the price of scrap metal, what it inherited from the Soviet Army, but not limitless, and they are already ending ...
And at the expense of DOING ... Alas, the "Kharkovites" offer almost NOTHING new, the majority, and the overwhelming majority - SOVIET WORKS and often, already previously embodied in metal in the same Kharkov, Leningrad, Omsk and Tagil. Look at the photos from the exhibitions of the 90s in Omsk, there you can see a lot of what the "Kharkovites" are now offering, but in your own performance ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

only by what SALE, often at the price of scrap metal

Again at the price of scrap metal)))
The number of sold BTTs of the Russian Federation leaves only at the expense of India, and the countries to which the debts were written off. At the same time, Russia does not offer anything new at all, the Soviet developments. Those modernizations that were shown at the last exhibition in Tagil cause smiles. Especially a model with an anti-aircraft machine gun reservation instead to make it remote.

Quote: svp67

Look at the photos from the exhibitions of the 90s in Omsk, there you can see a lot of what the "Kharkovites" are now offering, but in their own performance ...

Let’s show you? It’s more likely that you are giving out what you live for as real.

The line of equipment and upgrades offered by Kharkov is absolutely logical and designed to fulfill any customer wishes, in such difficult times when Europe sells its armored arsenals not expensively, or for rent and leasing.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Again at the price of scrap metal)))

You read the investigation of your own deputies on the fact of tank sales and there will simply be no questions ...
At least about the cargo of the ship "Faina" ...

Quote: Kars

Moreover, the Russian Federation does not offer anything new at all, Soviet developments.

Yes, I do not deny it, we live off the heritage of the Union, why are you embarrassed to admit it ... that you also live. In particular, your tank industry.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

You read the investigation of your own deputies on the fact of tank sales and there will simply be no questions ...
At least about the cargo of the ship "Faina" ...

so if you read, tell me how much they sold?

Quote: svp67

Yes, I do not deny it, we live off the heritage of the Union, why are you embarrassed to admit it

I'm just not shy, you're trying to shame this type)))

Quote: svp67

offer almost NOTHING new, the majority, and the vast majority - SOVIET WORKS

))) even using capsa))

Quote: svp67

Alas, I will not wish them success in this matter. Although very sorry.

So you do not blame me when I will speak the truth about UVZ))

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

I will speak the truth about UVZ)

To tell the TRUTH, you must at least know where it is ... And so, you simply draw conclusions from your point of view, even without being a SPECIALIST of tank troops ... I cannot forbid you from speaking your point of view, only You take everything as normal, there is no one here who "to put in a corner" does not want to ... If you want to speak objectively - please, but start fantasizing again about "the next division of the Soviet legacy" - it is better to go to the site of alternatives ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

that is to say the TRUTH, you must at least know where it is ... And so, you just make conclusions

But what a priori conclusions can only be untrue?

Quote: svp67

without even being a SPECIALIST of tank troops

is this a prerequisite? Remember, some Russian generals didn’t speak very well of UVZ products, and praised the Leopards. And the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation was not military))

Quote: svp67

and start fantasizing again about "the next division of the Soviet legacy" -

Could you be more detailed about fantasies?

Quote: svp67

go to alternatives to the site go ...

Why?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

But what a priori conclusions can only be untrue?

Unfortunately, the TRUTH happens to be different ...

Quote: Kars

is this a prerequisite?

Desirable, although certainly not obligatory.

Quote: Kars

I remember some Russian generals were not very flattering about UVZ products, and praised the Leopards. And the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation was not military))

With Leo, for the most part, there was a cunning move - an attempt to "shake" our production workers. Wait, so if they come to our tank biathlon, then there will be more ...
So now the minister is NOT MILITARY, and Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov, who was also a civilian, but it was a CLASS special, here, of course, a lot depends on the person and what goals he sets for himself ...

Quote: Kars

Could you be more detailed about fantasies?

And who demanded the "atamarins" just now?

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Unfortunately, the TRUTH happens to everyone.

these are excuses for the losers.

Quote: svp67

Desirable, although certainly not obligatory.

then what is the question

Quote: svp67

With Leo, for the most part, there was a cunning move - an attempt to "shake" our production workers.

Yes, of course, to shake up the manufacturers when there was only one exclusive monopoly producer of UVZ, and in terms of price growth dynamics such a ... cunning .. the plan failed)) you still come up with something.

Quote: svp67

Wait, if they come to us on a biathlon tank, will there still be ...

And what will happen? Will there be a tender for the supply of tanks to the RF Armed Forces?

Quote: svp67

here, of course, a lot depends on the person and on what goals he sets for himself

again your claims are removed.

Quote: svp67

And who demanded the "atamarins" just now?

and that Ukraine did not have rights to them? Did not participate in the construction? Ukrainians were not among the crews?

[sapran]

In all honesty, I expected you to have a deeper analysis (you’ve probably gone through a tank school under the Union) But in reality, it’s both fresh and one-sided ...

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

so if you read, tell me how much they sold?

Officially - the price for one T72, depending on the modification and year of manufacture - from 150 to 300 thousand hryvnias ... If we divide by the mass of the tank of 40 tons, we get from 3 750 to 7 510 hryvnias per ton, or from 3,75 to 7,51 hryvnias per kilogram

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Officially - the price for one T72, depending on the modification and year of manufacture - from 150 to 300 thousand hryvnia ...

You can link please that the tanks that were transported to Fain were sold at this price.

however, these figures may well reflect the real cost of tanks after depreciation of fixed assets.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

The line of equipment and modernizations offered by Kharkov is absolutely logical and designed to fulfill any customer wishes,

Alas, I will not wish them success in this matter. Although very sorry.

[legionary]

I do not dispute that practically everything that Ukraine offers to the "market" is the experience of the USSR. BUT they are modernizing Soviet equipment and it does not matter at which plant it is produced: Omsk, Leningrad, Kharkov or Tagil (and there is a difference), they adapt their products: power plant, guns, ammunition and other products for different equipment and for any customer generally show flexibility in this matter, unlike us. We don't give a damn what was released during the Soviet Union and on the "tagil", then we modernize if not, then prop it up, the Ukrainians, on the contrary, take it and do it.

[svp67]

Quote: Legioner

We don't give a damn about what was released under the USSR and on "tagil", then we modernize if not, then prop it up, the Ukrainians, on the contrary, take it and do it.

You just need to understand the issue. We are trying to keep our markets, they are trying to capture them, for which we are ready to do anything, including modernizing and selling our equipment, we will not sell the equipment produced from them ... we do not need to advertise them.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

We try to keep our markets

What are your other markets?

Quote: svp67

including the modernization and sale of our equipment

what else is your technique?

Quote: svp67

we will not sell the equipment produced by them ... we do not need to advertise them.

Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?

Here I fundamentally disagree with you "Gorshkov" was sold back in the early 90s like "Varyag", which was then in all countries of the post. of the Soviet space everyone knows this and the dosikhpor is a "wound on which salt is poured."

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Here I fundamentally disagree with you "Gorshkov" was sold back in the near 90

oh well, it’s also not a month since it was transferred to its Indians after many years of modernization.

Quote: Legioner

"Varangian"

it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.

Quote: Legioner

"a wound on which salt is poured"

the wounds are .. Kiev .. and ... Minsk .. sold to the Chinese by the Russian Federation.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

oh well, it’s also not a month since it was transferred to its Indians after many years of modernization.

Yes, yes, it was sold in the 90s as it does not seem likely

Quote: Kars

it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.

And that Ukraine does not have its own fleet?

Quote: Kars

the wounds are .. Kiev .. and ... Minsk .. sold to the Chinese by the Russian Federation.

+ Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Yes, yes, it was sold in the 90s as it does not seem likely

))) no, no in 2004))))

Quote: Legioner

And that Ukraine does not have its own fleet?

Ukraine needs an aircraft carrier? In the black sea?

Quote: Legioner

+ Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails

Is it that he was taken away somewhere and not cut off on the spot? Yes, and to ply Ulyanovsk at 20% readiness is somehow too much.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Is it that he was taken away somewhere and not cut off on the spot? Yes, and to ply Ulyanovsk at 20% readiness is somehow too much.

do not forget about "Varyag"

Quote: Kars

Ukraine needs an aircraft carrier? In the black sea?

and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?

Quote: Kars

))) no, no in 2004))))

I admit a mistake, but at least we would modernize it, and then sell it

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

do not forget about "Varyag"

So you rent Ulyanovsk?

Quote: Legioner

+ Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails

??
but about Varyag --- haven't you seen?

Quote: Kars

"Varangian"
it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.

??

Quote: Legioner

and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?

So you all the same want to say that the Aircraft Carrier does not bypass the Fleet of Ukraine))))) and yes the Black Sea has a way out, but what tasks does Ukraine need to solve in the World Ocean as an aircraft carrier?))))

Quote: Legioner

I admit a mistake, but at least we would modernize it, and then sell it

Well, they sold it for 1 dollar. And far away, the Hindu divorce is complete. Do not be afraid they lose their face, they would have expressed everything they think about it))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

So you rent Ulyanovsk?

looking at you sold for 1 dollar)))

Quote: Kars

??

it seems you yourself are in shock)))

Quote: Kars

and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?

Could-complete and modernize as with other equipment left after the USSR

Quote: Kars

Well, they sold it for 1 dollar. And far away, the Hindu divorce is complete. Do not be afraid they lose their face, they would have expressed everything they think about it))

you that are part of the elite of India)))

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

looking at you sold for 1 dollar)))

Well, why on us? We are not ready to sell. So looking at ourselves and the sale of Kiev and Minsk)))

Quote: Legioner

it seems you yourself are in shock)))

from your carelessness.

Quote: Legioner

Could-complete and modernize as with other equipment left after the USSR

You’re a funny person))) you can see right away that you don’t understand anything and don’t know. Well, how much money you had to invest, and even though most of the subcontractors remained outside of Ukraine, while you still had to find customers, so then the carrier would release the Turks through the straits)))

Quote: Legioner

you that are part of the elite of India)))

And what do you think only the elite can think))) Imagine immediately the Indians how it works out, they would order an aircraft carrier from the British, only about new money for the same, and not sawed)))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Well, why on us? We are not ready to sell. So looking at ourselves and the sale of Kiev and Minsk)))

this is at 80% readiness, when it remains only to install weapons, despite the fact that Ukraine was "focused" on the military-industrial complex

Quote: Kars

from your carelessness.

It is necessary to add immediately and not in half an hour

Quote: Kars

You’re a funny person))) you can see right away that you don’t understand anything and don’t know. Well, how much money you had to invest, and even though most of the subcontractors remained outside of Ukraine, while you still had to find customers, so then the carrier would release the Turks through the straits)))

Not only Ukraine was in economic, industrial and social decline and other countries after the collapse of the USSR. By the way, unlike Ukraine, Russia, as the legal successor of the USSR, had to pay off the debt of the USSR + civil wars in Chechnya + social, economic, industrial decline and the breakdown of numerous ties with "allies" in other countries.
As for the clients you had, it was the PRC, we could have agreed on the completion, and about the strait as well.

Quote: Kars

And what do you think only the elite can think))) Imagine immediately the Indians how it works out, they would order an aircraft carrier from the British, only about new money for the same, and not sawed)))

The Americans offered the Indians an aircraft carrier, did not agree.

Quote: Kars

they would have ordered an aircraft carrier from the British, roughly for the same money only brand new, and not sawed)))

If yes koby)))

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

this is at 80% readiness, when it remains only to install weapons, despite the fact that Ukraine was "focused" on the military-industrial complex

I see you continue errors? How about the sale date of Gorshkov? 67% and mainly the body, not the inner filling.
And the military-industrial complex of the USSR was very scattered among subcontractors. But it is clear that you were not even interested in the issue.

Quote: Legioner

It is necessary to add immediately and not in half an hour

You don’t have to lie, then be careful.

Quote: Legioner

Not only Ukraine was in the economic, production

Only zhalitsa is not necessary.

Quote: Legioner

Russia as the successor of the USSR was supposed to pay the debt of the USSR + civil war in Chechnya + social, economic, industrial decline

You got rights to debts to the USSR, state property abroad, the gold and diamond reserves of the USSR and Sberbank. Chechnya is your personal problem that you created for yourself.

Quote: Legioner

As for the clients, it was the PRC about respect, we could have agreed on the completion, and about the strait as well.

Well, yes, they didn’t let one empty building through the Bosphorus for almost a year, but you were the smartest)) and the Chinese are not as fools as Indians. This is not considering that it is very unlikely that Ukraine could have completed it, but that the RF would have cut off the supply of spare parts- - There is no doubt about this, it’s enough to recall the problems with the Pakistani tank contract.

Quote: Legioner

The Americans offered the Indians an aircraft carrier, did not agree.

What? When? Where is the link?

Quote: Legioner

As you become Prime Minister of India, you can do what you want)))

I’ll vryatli them, but from this I can still think logically.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

I see you continue errors? How about the sale date of Gorshkov? 67% and mainly the body, not the inner filling.
And the military-industrial complex of the USSR was very scattered among subcontractors. But it is clear that you were not even interested in the issue.

Only zhalitsa is not necessary. The construction of the Varyag was stopped at the beginning of 1992 with a 67,7 percent readiness, and the readiness of the aviation complex was about 80. Aerial lifts and elevators of the ammunition stock were already operating on temporary power supply, aerial finishers, an aviation fuel system, and an aircraft and helicopter transportation system were installed hangar. On the ship, the installation of the machine and boiler rooms was completed, and the state of the energy compartments made it possible to receive power, start cranking mechanisms and conduct mooring tests. The delivery of the ship of the Navy was planned in 1993.
Read more: http://vpk-news.ru/articles/13120

Quote: Kars

You got rights to debts to the USSR, state property abroad, the gold and diamond reserves of the USSR and Sberbank. Chechnya is your personal problem that you created for yourself.

Ukrainian politicians perfectly understood what they were doing when they signed the documents in "Belovezhskaya Pushcha". You got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.

Quote: Kars

Well, almost one year they didn’t let one empty building through the Bosphorus,

No need to complain

Quote: Kars

What? When? Where is the link?

http://vpk.name/news/14268_indiya_mozhet_poluchit_avianosec_ot_ssha_darom.html

Quote: Kars

I’ll vryatli them, but from this I can still think logically.

Whatever you yourself consider the envy of one way or another, this or that decision will not be from you, unless of course you become the prime minister or presidency of the country

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

and the readiness of the aviation complex was about 80

So what? Was Kokai’s general readiness? And
Of course, 67% of readiness and after a year surrender))) believe more tales. The Chinese, with the help of Ukraine, have been building it for ten years)))

Quote: Legioner

Ukrainian politicians understood very well what they were doing when they signed the documents in "Belovezhskaya Pushcha".

It was not signed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, and then.

Quote: Legioner

.You, got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.

Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

Quote: Legioner

No need to complain

And here are the facts.

Quote: Legioner

http://vpk.name/news/14268_indiya_mozhet_poluchit_avianosec_ot_ssha_darom.html

))))))))))

In addition, on the eve of Gates’s visit to Delhi, the American media reported that the head of the Pentagon will send an Indian colleague a letter signed by US President George W. Bush

Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

Quote: Legioner

Whatever you yourself consider the envy of one way or another, this or that decision will not be from you, unless of course you become the prime minister or presidency of the country

Well, you're straight Kep evidence. Especially considering that we are talking about events that have already occurred.

The agreement signed on January 29, 2004 provided for the allocation of $ 974 million for the restoration and modernization of Admiral Gorshkov and $ 530 million for the supply of 16 MiG-29K fighters and

Have begun
finished

it spent about 2,3 billion dollars, remind

and along the way without the wing.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

So what? Was Kokai’s general readiness? And
Of course, 67% of readiness and after a year surrender))) believe more tales. The Chinese, with the help of Ukraine, have been building it for ten years)))

Plans were under the USSR. China had neither experience nor technology.

Quote: Kars

with the help of Ukraine it was completed ten years)

)))

Quote: Kars

It was not signed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, and then.

The division of the Black Sea Fleet is a consequence of this agreement.

Quote: Kars

Yes, well, just tell me just because of kindness of heart we received, for everything it was paid.

Yes, well, Explain, Links, quotes?

Quote: Kars

And the RF campaign got more

reproaches that the Russian Federation is to blame for everything, even if the Russian Federation has nothing to do with it

Quote: Kars

Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site.

Quote: Kars

Well, you're straight Kep evidence. Especially considering that we are talking about events that have already occurred.

If you do not understand then I wrote this for the future to you

Quote: Kars

Have begun
finished

And?

Quote: Kars

and along the way without the wing.

let it be so and so what?

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Plans were under the USSR. China had neither experience nor technology.

In the USSR, they also often did not coincide with reality. And China had full-scale models helpfully sold to the Russian Federation, all the technical documentation and technologies were also there. And there, according to your words, to finish a trifle.
You can see, by the way, the timing of the buildings. Project 1143 may be able to conclude, but this is unlikely

Quote: Legioner

)))

Are you shocked

Quote: Legioner

The division of the Black Sea Fleet is a consequence of this agreement.

Yes, but its conditions were not discussed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha.

Quote: Legioner

reproaches that the Russian Federation is to blame for everything, even if the Russian Federation has nothing to do with it

Why is it to blame? Just the fact has received the most.

Quote: Legioner

and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site.

goes confirm you are not able

Quote: Legioner

If you do not understand then I wrote this for the future to you

and now you’re not playing catch-up on Kep?

Quote: Legioner

And?

Quote: Legioner

let it be so and so what?

Natural divorce

[legionary]

You, I am amazed, call me "Kep ...", and you are building a person out of yourself and who has access to official data and has a weighty word in all matters)))

Quote: Kars

Natural divorce

I do not understand what is before this? is there a rollback?

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

You, amaze me, call me "Kep ...",

well, you’ve gone so many times at the same time on elementary questions - such as the date of Gorshkov’s sale.

Quote: Legioner

build yourself a man and having access to official data and for all questions has his weighty word)))

And can you give my quote about this? And show the logical chain of thoughts that led you to this conclusion?
And I'm right

Quote: Kars

Quote: Legioner
and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site too. It turns out that you are not able to confirm

Quote: Legioner

I do not understand what is before this? is there a rollback?

and that it’s necessary to be directly involved in order to say something about a divorce. Atomic Charles de Gaulle cost 3.2 billion

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

And I'm right

The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

Quote: Kars

I can think anyway

neither links nor citations according to answers)))

Quote: Kars

and that it’s necessary to be directly involved in order to say something about a divorce. Atomic Charles de Gaulle cost 3.2 billion

I do not understand this reproach or a compliment?

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

Then what is the problem of showing them if darkness?

Quote: Legioner

neither links nor citations according to answers)))

How?

Quote: Legioner

I do not understand this reproach or a compliment?

Admiration for divorce.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Then what is the problem of showing them if darkness?

Actually, this is a question for you!

Quote: Kars

How?

Quote: Kars

China were full-scale samples helpfully sold to the Russian Federation

Quote: Kars

Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

Quote: Kars

Admiration for divorce.

THX.
even agree on this)

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Actually, this is a question for you!

yah)))

Quote: Kars

Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

Something about filming a movie in the history of Kitty Hawk is mentioned, but they forgot about a possible gift from India))))

Quote: Legioner

China were full-scale samples helpfully sold to the Russian Federation

Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?

Quote: Legioner

Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

Ukraine that did not participate in the economic life of the USSR? Did not contribute its share to the general budget and TD?

Quote: Legioner

Admiration for divorce. THX.
even agree on this)

Where would you go))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

yah)))

Are you surprised?

Quote: Kars

Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?

You have a computer, but that does not mean that you can create one!

Quote: Kars

Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?

Come on

Quote: Kars

Ukraine that did not participate in the economic life of the USSR? Did not contribute its share to the general budget and TD?

Figures, links, etc. where?

Quote: Kars

Where would you go))

there, too, yes, and you)))

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Are you surprised?

your irrationality.

Quote: Legioner

You have a computer, but that does not mean that you can create one!

Thank you for comparing me with China)) and they can do more than just a computer)))

Quote: Legioner

Come on

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%
D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D
0% B5% D1% 80)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%
D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D
1% 80)

Quote: Legioner

Figures, links, etc. where?

It is well known
but please
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0
%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1
%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8
F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

Quote: Legioner

there, too, yes, and you)))

You flatter yourself.

[legionary]

[quote = Kars] Thank you for comparing me with China)) [/ quote] Your pomp is high)))
[quote = Kars] does not work

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

You have a high flatulence)))

I then. Your comparison.

Quote: Legioner

does not work

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%
D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D
1% 80)

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0
%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1
%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8
F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

Well I don’t know, it works for me
The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).

Quote: Legioner

Prove

Something from you, at the suggestion of India, an aircraft carrier is not watching

Quote: Legioner

The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

??

[Kars]

____________________

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

I then. Your comparison.

The main thing to the point!

Quote: Kars

The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).

I still don’t understand where she paid for everything.

Quote: Bad_gr

Quote: Legioner
.You, got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.
Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

??

Quote: Kars

Quote: Legioner

You have a high flatulence)))

I then. Your comparison.

Quote: Legioner

does not work

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%

D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D

1% 80)

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0

%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1

%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8

F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

Well I don’t know, it works for me
The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).

Quote: Legioner

Prove

Something from you, at the suggestion of India, an aircraft carrier is not watching

Quote: Legioner

The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

??

Recently they were commissioned

Quote: Kars

??

And this is the most amazing thing that not only you but others do not understand you

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

The main thing to the point!

What's the point? Compare one person who can’t reproduce the computer himself, with an industrial country that launches satellites into space, builds atomic submarines))) you are a strange person.

Quote: Legioner

I still don’t understand where she paid for everything.

Well, if they didn’t understand, they’re unable to perceive information. But you can prove that the Ukrainian SSR was a subsidized republic

Quote: Legioner

Recently they were commissioned

What did Kitty Hawk put into operation?

Quote: Kars

In addition, on the eve of Gates’s visit to Delhi, the American media reported that the head of the Pentagon will send an Indian colleague a letter signed by US President George W. Bush
Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

Quote: Legioner

And this is the most amazing thing that not only you but others do not understand you

??? do you begin to rave? First Gorshkov of India was sold to 90, Ulyanovsk was taken to Asia, now you just go into the unconscious?

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

What's the point? Compare one person who can’t reproduce the computer himself, with an industrial country that launches satellites into space, builds atomic submarines))) you are a strange person.

Complaining

Quote: Kars

Well, if they didn’t understand, they’re unable to perceive information. But you can prove that the Ukrainian SSR was a subsidized republic

I won’t and will not, moreover, this is not so.
BUT we after the collapse of the USSR turned out to be ONE launching pad and the chances were that Ukraine and Russia were the same, but you remained in captivity of the 90s to regret your mentality and its hatching in politics remained in the 90s and blame dosihpor in all the sins of the Russian Federation BUT just not MYSELF!
Say what you like, but Indians bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier and cooperate with the Air Force and Navy
It is a pity to me that Ukraine remains in captivity of nonsense that "Russia will pass away and take everything away" very sorry, but this is your choice ...

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Complaining

No, I am horrified by your logic, or rather its absence.

Quote: Legioner

I won’t and will not, moreover, this is not so.

What's wrong?

Quote: Legioner

BUT we after the collapse of the USSR were on one launch pad and the chances were that Ukraine and Russia were the same,

They were not the same a priori. Let's start with the geographic dimensions (and, accordingly, minerals — which the people of all republics both explored and developed) and the population. And based on this, the Ukrainian economy even showed itself to be more resilient, the Russian Federation was falling into the abyss until prices jumped for oil.

Quote: Legioner

Like it or not, Hindus bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier

Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.

Quote: Legioner

It's a pity that Ukraine remains in captivity of nonsense that "Russia will pass away and take everything away"

Well, it may not work, but they create problems and this is a fact.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

No, I am horrified by your logic, or rather its absence.

Your logic simply impresses with its inadequacy

Quote: Kars

What's wrong?

You can read, especially your comments

Quote: Kars

Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.

What do you want before this? Ukraine hasn’t gotten enough money)))

Quote: Kars

Well, it may not work, but they create problems and this is a fact.

ha ha ha, tell this to your americos friends.

Quote: Kars

they create problems and this is a fact

What evidence is there!?

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Your logic simply impresses with its inadequacy

Give an example, I brought yours when you compared an individual with an industrial country, the second economy in the world.

Quote: Legioner

You can read, especially your comments

I read yours, and I want specifics.

Quote: Legioner

What do you want before this? Ukraine hasn’t gotten enough money)))

Nothing to me, I voice the facts that complement your statements

Quote: Kars

Like it or not, Hindus bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier
Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.

Quote: Legioner

ha ha ha, tell this to your americos friends.

they see it anyway. And they are the same friends as the Russian Federation

Quote: Legioner

What evidence is there!?

Why do you need to prove the obvious. If until now no one has found forbidden substances in Roshen's sweets except for the Russian Federation.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Give an example, I brought yours when a person was compared with an industrial country, the second economy in the world.

That's exactly what I mean when you yourself have compared with an industrial country, when it was not about you.

Quote: Kars

I read yours, and I want specifics.

Read comments. Again your logic.

Quote: Kars

Nothing to me, I voice the facts that complement your statements

Once again, I am writing to you that the aircraft carrier was sold and modernized, how, for what money, this is not your mind, Ukraine is only a plus.

Quote: Kars

they see it anyway. And they are the same friends as the Russian Federation

Officials, politicians of the Russian Federation, unlike others, do not fit into your affairs, do not speak on the squares, and do not call for disobedience and the overthrow of the legitimate authority.

Quote: Kars

Why do you need to prove the obvious. If until now no one has found forbidden substances in Roshen's sweets except for the Russian Federation.

That is, all this is only your conclusion and only

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

That's exactly what I mean when you yourself have compared with an industrial country, when it was not about you.

I? It’s you who reproached me that having a computer I can’t reproduce it, in the contest of full-scale models of aircraft-carrying cruisers sold to China.

Quote: Legioner

Read comments. Again your logic.

But what concrete example did not result?

Quote: Legioner

Once again, I am writing to you that the aircraft carrier was sold and modernized, how, for what money, this is not your mind, Ukraine is only a plus.

Why is this a plus for Ukraine, but in fact the Indians were divorced as children.

Quote: Legioner

foreigners, politicians of the Russian Federation, unlike others, do not fit into your affairs, do not appear on the squares, and do not call for disobedience and the overthrow of the legitimate authority.

Because they are thrown stones at Ukraine, but this does not prevent them from speaking from far away in their own interests.

Quote: Legioner

That is, all this is only your conclusion and only

This is a fact - unless of course you bring that the inspecting services of Kazakhstan and Belarus also found that ONE allegedly found Onishchenko in Roshen products.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

I? It’s you who reproached me that having a computer I can’t reproduce it, in the contest of full-scale models of aircraft-carrying cruisers sold to China.

Again, your logic, it was about an industrial country, and you projected everything on yourself)))

Quote: Kars

But what concrete example did not result?

Everything is written, read

Quote: Kars

Why is this a plus for Ukraine

Because it is Ukraine that produces some components for aviation

Quote: Kars

Indians bred as children.

Are you offended that they were divorced by the Russian Federation and not Ukraine? )))

Quote: Kars

Because in Ukraine they will throw stones at them

Utterance statement and only

Quote: Kars

but this does not prevent them from speaking from far in their own interest

Are you confused with the Americans who are so kicking about democracy around the world that they are dispersing their demonstrators with special means, but others if they did so are not democratic

Quote: Kars

This is a fact - unless of course you bring that the inspecting services of Kazakhstan and Belarus also found that ONE allegedly found Onishchenko in Roshen products.

So sell where they don’t find them, what's the problem?

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

five is your logic, it was about an industrial country, and you projected everything on yourself)))

Then why this your comment? did i write it?

Quote: Legioner

Quote: Kars
Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?
LegionerYou have a computer but that doesn’t mean that you can create one!

excellent indicator of your illogicality.

Quote: Legioner

Everything is written, read

therefore, you are not able to give a concrete example.

Quote: Legioner

Are you offended that they were divorced by the Russian Federation and not Ukraine? )))

Ukraine wouldn’t be able to, it’s not so impudent, and it’s easier for it to accuse the claim than Russia.

Quote: Legioner

Utterance statement and only

Well, let them come to the Maidan as an Ameican and a European. Maybe glazyeva))

Quote: Legioner

Are you confused with the Americans

I did not confuse anything - that the Russian Federation. that the United States is a storehouse of double-triple standards.

Quote: Legioner

So sell where they don’t find them, what's the problem?

This is not an answer to my words. So you could not reject the artificially created problems from the Russian Federation.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

excellent indicator of your illogicality.

You have a lack of not only logic but also rationality, I gave this example as a child so that you understand that the availability of technology, electronics does not yet say that a country that has this technology can reproduce the same technology and electronics. If you certainly understand that it is unlikely.

Quote: Kars

therefore, you are not able to give a concrete example.

I try not to write the same thing thrice

Quote: Kars

Ukraine wouldn’t be able to, it’s not so impudent, and it’s easier for it to accuse the claim than Russia.

Well, of course I couldn’t, I just would prolong it, I would take money, and then I would send it, or refer that the contract was read incorrectly and considered wrong.

Quote: Kars

Well, let them come to the Maidan as an Ameican and a European. Maybe glazyeva))

And why do they need your circus and booth? )))

Quote: Kars

I did not confuse anything - that the Russian Federation. that the United States is a storehouse of double-triple standards.

Well, of course, only Ukraine is righteous and most honest.

Quote: Kars

This is not an answer to my words. So you could not reject the artificially created problems from the Russian Federation.

There are rules and regulations, if you like it, go to another buyer. This is a market and not the Soviet Union.

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

l as a child so that you understand that the availability of technology, electronics does not yet say that the country that possesses this

You))))) yes you haven’t grown up to the child’s campaign))) and your arguments are simply ridiculous. Features in relation to China.

Quote: Legioner

You have a lack of not only logic but also rationality

Show an example
my quote

Quote: Legioner

Well, of course I couldn’t, I just extended it, I would have taken money, and then I sent it

Is there an example of such behavior? What would they not sue?

Quote: Legioner

And why do they need your circus and booth? )))

This is not an answer. Americans and Europeans need it, but the RFs do not need nu-nu-nu))

Quote: Legioner

Well, of course, only Ukraine is righteous and most honest

Compared to the above

Quote: Legioner

There are rules and regulations, if you like it, go to another buyer. This is a market and not the Soviet Union.

Of course there is - but why even the countries participating in the CU did not find what the Russian Federation allegedly found, and which did not even show the results of the research))) So the Russian Federation does not have rules and regulations - there is only telephone right. They called, found, called and de. .mo will miss.

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

You))))) yes you haven’t grown up to the child’s campaign))) and your arguments are simply ridiculous. Features in relation to China

ha ha ha, I tell you about Thomas, you tell me about Yeryom.
Pretend yourself to be a knowledgeable person, but in fact "zero" are only unfounded and phantasmagoric statements.

Quote: Kars

Show an example
my quote

Again, I tell you that not every state is capable of producing highly technological products, even China is not able to do much, no matter how you worship China.

Quote: Kars

This is not an answer. Americans and Europeans need it, but the RFs do not need nu-nu-nu))

ha ha ha, you have Russophobia, and at least as far as not a single official or politician of the Russian Federation has come forward with different calls and slogans.

Quote: Kars

Compared to the above

I don’t doubt that you write like that, honestly even smiled)))

Quote: Kars

Of course there is - but why even the countries participating in the CU did not find what the Russian Federation allegedly found, and which did not even show the results of the research))) So the Russian Federation does not have rules and regulations - there is only telephone right. They called, found, called and de. .mo will miss.

Each country of the CU has its own rules and regulations, though everything goes to a common standard. Like or dislike, follow those requirements that are required of you, if you do not want to comply, then go ...

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

I tell you about Thomas, you tell me about Yeryoma.

you already just rave. and upon the fact of your comments that you have given me, you are able to compare me with China. By the way, it’s not influenced by the fact that the Russian Federation sold two aircraft-carrying cruisers that came to China.

Quote: Legioner

Make yourself a knowledgeable person, but in fact "zero" oh

it says not zero who sold the potter in the 90's to the Indians and towed Ulyanovsk to Asia. And he believes that Ukraine just needs an aircraft carrier as part of the Black Sea fleet)))

Quote: Legioner

again, I tell you that not every state is capable of producing highly technological products

and of course the aircraft-carrying cruiser is just a bunch of LESS analogs of high technology))) such that poor China would need to build Varyag with the help of specialists from Nikolaev, having access to the nodes of the same type of ships took more than 10 years, while according to you the Varangian was sold in such a high degree readiness that there was work for a year there (at least one more question arises - what is it that the Russians so stumbled upon an almost ready ship stopped financing)))

Quote: Legioner

ha ha ha, you have Russophobia, and at least as far as not a single official or politician of the Russian Federation has come forward with different calls and slogans.

They already just got sick of speaking anywhere, it was not enough for us to perform.

Quote: Legioner

I don’t doubt that you write like that

Well, you do not doubt that they will answer the question 2 + 2))) even though you may doubt it))

Quote: Legioner

Each CU country has its own rules and regulations.

According to your stupid reasoning, I allow the norms of Kazakhstan and Belarus to poison our own population)))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

you already just rave. and upon the fact of your comments that you have given me, you are able to compare me with China. By the way, it’s not influenced by the fact that the Russian Federation sold two aircraft-carrying cruisers that came to China.

are you out of your mind or logic, or whatever you have instead of brains, completely stopped working . Nobody personally compared you to China, think with your brains or what’s there before you write something.

Quote: Kars

it says not zero who sold the potter in the 90's to the Indians and towed Ulyanovsk to Asia. And he believes that Ukraine just needs an aircraft carrier as part of the Black Sea fleet)))

ha ha ha, not only did you compare yourself with the country, so you also distort.

Quote: Kars

and of course, an aircraft-carrying cruiser is just a bunch of LESS analogs of high technology))) such that poor China would complete the Varyag with the help of specialists from Nikolaev, having access to the nodes of the same type of ships took more than 10 years

Another confirmation of this is that China did not have the technology to build aircraft carriers. By the way, this is just a brilliant indicator of your logic, intelligence and quick wits.

Quote: Kars

They already just got sick of speaking anywhere, it was not enough for us to perform.

give examples, links, quotes! Or did you mean Americans and politicians in Europe?

Quote: Kars

Well, you do not doubt that they will answer the question 2 + 2))) even though you may doubt it))

exactly russophobe

Quote: Kars

According to your stupid reasoning, I allow the norms of Kazakhstan and Belarus to poison our own population)))

You know how to read, do you generally understand what are norms and rules, why are they needed?

[Kars]

))))))))))) advertisement miracle)))

Quote: Legioner

Yes, please, the whole epic with "gas" is a confirmation

What confirmation? Bring a court decision?

Quote: Legioner

More evidence of this is that China did not have technology for the construction of aircraft carriers

Gorshkov’s RF for ten years (by the way, you sold it in the 90s more) modernized))))

Quote: Legioner

exactly russophobe

de bilo fob

Quote: Legioner

You know how to read, do you generally understand what are norms and rules, why are they needed?

You))) If the Russian Federation found substance X in sweets (which is poisonous, etc.) then by what standards did Kazakhstan not find this substance X (let us go to meet your nonsense which is not considered poisonous in Kazakhstan)))))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

What confirmation? Bring a court decision?

Ha ha ha, but all the whining of Ukraine about the fact that gas is expensive to sell, and the fact that you do not drag it along the quiet?

Quote: Kars

de bilo fob

You see, you yourself admitted that and who you are.

Quote: Kars

You))) If the Russian Federation found substance X in sweets (which is poisonous, etc.) then by what standards did Kazakhstan not find this substance X (let us go to meet your nonsense which is not considered poisonous in Kazakhstan)))))

And whether the chief sanitary doctor or whoever decided there to let the products go to Kazakhstan, Russia should do the same. Kazakhs have their own rules and regulations.

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

Ha ha ha, but all the whining of Ukraine about the fact that gas is expensive to sell, and the fact that you do not drag it along the quiet?

and you caught? Yes, and what?
к

Quote: Legioner

Well, of course I couldn’t, I just extended it, I would have taken money, and then I sent it

Quote: Legioner

You see, you yourself admitted that and who you are.

and again I repeat - moron. but you don’t understand what this means. You only have a conditioned reflex that ejects from your bowels - Russophobe)))

Quote: Legioner

And whether the chief sanitary doctor or whoever decided there to let the products go to Kazakhstan, Russia should do the same. Kazakhs have their own rules and regulations.

Yes, you definitely fit my phobia.

RF - found benzopyrene
Kazakhstan did not find benzopyrene. The Russian Federation refused to confirm with evidence that they found benzopyrene. Moreover, the norms here)))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

and you caught? Yes, and what?
к

No, well, just like a Russophobe, fixated, believing that only he is right and no one else except him.

Quote: Kars

RF - found benzopyrene
Kazakhstan did not find benzopyrene. The Russian Federation refused to confirm with evidence that they found benzopyrene. Moreover, the norms here)))

And you prove that he is not there, or you think that if the Kazakhs did not find it, then surely no one will find it.

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

No, well, just like a Russophobe, fixated, believing that only he is right and no one else except him.

Cool answer to the fact that they didn’t catch it))) And I will repeat the moron. And you will get the object of my phobia.

Quote: Legioner

And you prove that he is not there, or you think that if the Kazakhs did not find it, then surely no one will find it.

Now you doubt the hardware base of Kazakhstan? And I don’t have to do anything. The Russian Federation said on the lips of Onishchenko, so let it present. They don’t want to.))) Belarus also didn’t find it. No one else found it except the Russian Federation))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

And here the norms

Quote: Kars

Now do you doubt the hardware base of Kazakhstan? And I don’t have to prove anything. The Russian Federation said on the lips of Onishchenko, but it does. They don’t want to.))) Belarus also didn’t find it. No one else found it except the Russian Federation)

Only stupid people like you can say that. If you don’t understand the stupidity of what, why the hell should we carry products that do not meet the norms and rules of our country. You can’t prove that the product complies with the applicable standards and rules, go sell to those countries where it complies. So you are not only Russophobe, but also afraid of yourself.

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

again I’m writing to you, why the hell are we supposed to carry products that do not meet the standards and rules of the country where these products are busy. You can not prove that the product meets the standards

Well, you and the clown. Apparently I took you for the gills)) Onishchenko didn’t say anything about the rules. He clearly said that they found the gas chains. And EVERYTHING. Kazakhstan didn’t find, Belarus didn’t find - the Russian Federation does not show actual evidence of the gas line)) and you here about the norms the clown is crucified)))

Quote: Legioner

but also afraid of yourself.

You can listen to on the basis of what my statements this conclusion was made?)))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

He clearly said that they had found gasoline. And EVERYTHING. Kazakhstan did not find, Belarus did not find - the Russian Federation does not present actual evidence of the presence of gasoline

Ha ha ha, here you are stubborn, as you read the mantra: Kazakhstan and Belarus, and most importantly, ONE SAID! HAHAHA)))

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

and ha ha, here you are stubborn, as you read the mantra: Kazakhstan and Belarus

And what should I say? Kazakhstan and Belarus are members of the CU and they did not confirm the suit from the Russian Federation.

Quote: Legioner

ONE SAID! HAHAHA)))

"The requirements for quality and safety have been violated. There are reasons to speak of systemic violations of the legislation on consumer protection in force in our country," the Russian official said.

"Benzopyrene was found in Roshen milk chocolate. This is a sign of serious problems associated with ensuring the safety of this type of product," he said.

And what did not say?

[legionary]

Can you read? Gennady Onishchenko: "Quality requirements violated and security. There is reason to talk about systemic violations of the laws on consumer protection in force in our country. ”

Read more: http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/636302#ixzz2nZUrY0ba
That Kazakhstan and Belarus are part of the CU, ha ha ha also revealed America to me :))) And, the fact that general norms and rules are still being created and introduced is of course not familiar to you! :)))

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

are you eating Gennady Onishchenko: “The requirements for quality and safety have been violated. E

Well, brakes. Of course they are broken if Benzopyrene is found in the product)) it should not be there))) But nobody else found Onishchenko except him.

and when they sent an inspection to Roshen factories, it included representatives of competing RF plants. We went to see how normal plants work with modern equipment))))

Quote: Legioner

, then that I am still creating general rules and regulations

And how can this affect the presence of benzopyrene? Is it either there or not)) Or isn’t it currently determined by the rules in Kazakhstan and Belarus?


Well, then the onischenka had to invent fairy tales))

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

Roshen factories included representatives of competing Russian plants

ha ha ha, you're talking about industrial espionage in the URAN factories. Rosmeshil :))) Ha ha ha , be indignant, read the "mantra" and further. You explain, but there is ZERO

[Kars]

Quote: Legioner

industrial espionage in the URAN factories.

Not that they are on an excursion)))

Quote: Legioner

Explain to you and the interpretation of ZERO

What do you explain to the clown? What can benzopyrene only personally determine onishchenko?

[legionary]

Quote: Kars

benzopyrene can only personally determine onishchenko

ear ha ha you’re really a clown, ha ha ha

[Kars]

What is an informative answer. So, all the same, only Onishchenko can find pyrene foam? And the veterinary services of Belarus and Kazakhstan, for the lack of Onishchenko, can find it in the tested samples?

[legionary]

Quote: Legioner

Is there an example of such behavior? What would they not sue?

Yes, please, the whole epic with the "gas" confirmation of this.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?

Do you consider him yours? File a complaint to the Hague court.

Quote: Kars

What are your other markets?

Those that we got from the USSR and those that we managed to capture after ...

Quote: Kars

what else is your technique?

Ours - read produced in the factories of the USSR and remained on the territory of Russia, after its collapse, as well as produced in the factories of Russia.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Do you consider him yours? File a complaint to the Hague court

Well, you think the T-64 that the Russian Federation does not want to sell Ukrainian, and the pots were built in Nikolaev.

Quote: svp67

Those that we got from the USSR and those that were captured after ..

And why are they yours? Ukraine was also part of the USSR, so lay claim to YOURS)))

Quote: svp67

Our - read produced at the factories of the USSR and remaining in Russia

Then why do you consider the similar equipment remaining in the territory of Ukraine to be yours?

Quote: svp67

including the modernization and sale of our equipment

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

Well, you think T-64 which the Russian Federation does not want to sell Ukrainian

God be with you! Nobody wants to buy them)))

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

God be with you! Nobody wants to buy them)))

What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment, and their level is wooden T-72 specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment

Hmmm .... you drive me into a stupor, which means T-80UD for Pakistan, and BM "Oplot" for Thailand - wooden and

Quote: Kars

specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.

Such a revelation was not expected at all.

[sapran]

Have you seen those "bearded men" from Pakistan?
I "talked" with them for six months
1. only veterans
2. In total, turn inside out to deal with an issue that is not clear to them.
3. They are very worried about the place and their position in society and do not allow exemptions in the performance of routine work and combat training.
The list is more than long ...

[Kars]

________________

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

... You drive me into a stupor, which means T-80UD for Pakistan, and BM "Oplot" for Thailand - wooden and

You look at what technology the Pakistanis and the Thai exploited before)))

Quote: nick-name

Such a revelation was not expected at all.

This is written in plain text in the historiography of the T-72.

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

You look at what technology the Pakistanis and the Thai exploited before)))

What difference does it make! After all, there is an expert opinion:

Quote: Kars

What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment, and their level is wooden T-72 specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.

But neither Thailand nor Pakistanis need a T-64. Therefore, BM Oplot and T-80UD are low-tech equipment, because they can cope with their maintenance

Here is even an opinion:

Quote: sapran

Have you seen those "bearded men" from Pakistan? I "talked" with them for six months 1. only veterans 2. Turn everything inside out to deal with an unclear question to them. They are very worried about their place and position in society and do not allow indulgences in the performance of routine maintenance and combat training.

But the T-64 can’t serve anyway

[sapran]

Sorry, but I am waiting for you to explain the physics of the cumulative jet.
And then somehow it is necessary to explain the error using screens on armored vehicles for 70 years. Research institutes I began to respect yes, but the tests were carried out here on the spot, shooting on a high-speed camera, everything was fixed that you didn’t fantasize about the vigorous Ukrainian air there. If you are just clowning or by profession you should be so sorry then for the question asked.

[nick-name]

Let's all in one branch, everything seemed to answer there.

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

What difference does it make! After all, there is an expert opinion:

Quote: nick-name

if developing countries

Well, Thailand and Pakistan have an army that is not in the last places on the list.

Quote: nick-name

But neither Thailand nor Pakistanis need a T-64. Therefore, BM Oplot and T-80UD are low-tech equipment, because they can cope with their maintenance

What a dumb logic)) T-84 is better than T-64 therefore Pakistan bought the best.

Quote: nick-name

And I still can’t serve the T-64

How did you determine this? They did not buy them, Pakistan bought a better tank and all things.

Pakistan 12th place
thailand -20 place
http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

What a dumb logic)) T-84 is better than T-64 therefore Pakistan bought the best.

T-64 is "better" than T-72, so Ukraine is massively selling out T-72, and T-64 for melting

Quote: Kars

How did you define this?

The long line of customers lined up for the T-64
Well, according to the last desires of Ukraine, cut the T-64 into scrap metal. (RF did this a long time ago)))

Quote: Kars

What a dumb logic

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

T-64 is "better" than T-72, so Ukraine is massively selling out T-72, and T-64 for melting

Because the T-72 is bought by developing countries of the third world)))

Quote: nick-name

The long line of customers lined up for the T-64

Do you see a big queue behind Leclerc and Challenger 2? And the T-90 of the Russian Federation sells only to countries to which it has written off debts, or it may exert political pressure.

Quote: nick-name

Well, according to the latest desires of Ukraine, cut the T-64 into scrap metal

Where is the T-64 cut in Ukraine? It was NATO’s desire and there are no official decisions.

[nick-name]

Quote: Kars

Because the T-72 is bought by developing countries of the third world)))

Nobody buys the T-64, because no one needs them

Quote: Kars

For Leclerc and Challenger 2, do you see a big queue?

I don’t see. Maybe because dear? Or because one of them was discontinued?
PS What is your last photo? To the popularity of the T-72? it is yes! And if it were foo T-64, that would be an argument on your part))) But SUDDENLY !!! nobody needs a govnotank

[Kars]

Quote: nick-name

Nobody buys the T-64, because no one needs them

Well, Challenger 2 and Type 90, too, no one buys)))
and on the T-64, everything is clear - Africans can’t, and more developed countries buy more modern tanks.

Quote: nick-name

I don’t see. Maybe because dear? Or because one of them was discontinued?

Not cheap, well, and Abrams is also not cheap, but they somehow put it in))) and put it into production - there would be customers. By the way, the T-64 is also discontinued)))

Quote: nick-name

PS What is your last photo? To the popularity of the T-72? it is yes!

yes to the popularity of the T-72 among blacks from third world countries.

Quote: nick-name

And be on this foo T-64, it would be an argument on your part)))

Of course. And sooner or later it will be.

Quote: nick-name

nobody needs a govnotank

Are you talking about the T-90MS? Even the Indians, regular customers of the Nizhny Tagil scrap metal, decided not to contact.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

yes to the popularity of the T-72 among blacks from third world countries.

Well, how much can you envy ...
As of 2012:
Russia:
Russian Ground Forces - 9000 T-72, T-72A, T-72B and T-72BA, of which 7500 are in storage
Russian Navy Coast Troops - 96 T-72
Azerbaijan - 244 T-72,
Algeria - 325 T-72
Angola - 50 T-72,
Armenia - 102 T-72,
Belarus - 1446 T-72
Bulgaria - 301 T-72
Hungary - 30 T-72
Venezuela - 92 T-72B1V
Vietnam - 150 T-72M1
Georgia - 96 T-72, of which 3 are in storage
DR Congo - 100 T-72M1
India - 1950 T-72M1
Iraq - more than 120 T-72
Iran - 480 T-72Z
Yemen - 60 T-72
Kazakhstan - 980 T-72
Kenya - 110 T-72AG
Kyrgyzstan - 150 T-72
Cuba - 50 (51) T-72
Libya - some T-72
Macedonia - 31 T-72AG
Mongolia - 50 units of T-72A
Morocco - 40 T-72
Myanmar - 50 T-72
Oman - 6 units of T-72S
Poland - 584 T-72, T-72M1D, T-72M1
Abkhazia - about 40 T-72
Serbia - 13 T-72
Syria - about 1500-1700 T-72 and T-72M
Slovakia - 69 T-72M
Sudan - 60 T-72M1 units
USA - 86 T-72 units
Sierra Leone - 2 T-72 units
Tajikistan - 30 T-72,
Turkmenistan - 670 T-72,
Uganda - 10 T-72,
Uzbekistan - 70 T-72,
Ukraine - 1032 T-72,
Croatia - 3 T-72M,
Czech Republic - 124 T-72 and 30 T-72M4CZ,
Ethiopia - 200 T-72E1
South Ossetia - 75 T-72,
South Sudan - 110 T-72.

And for comparison, for the same year ...
Russia:
Russian Ground Forces - 2000 T-64A and T-64B (BV) are all in storage and disposed of
Coastal troops of the Russian Navy - 350 T-64,
Kazakhstan - some used for educational purposes
The Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic - about 20, is consolidated into a separate tank battalion of a two-troop composition.
Uzbekistan - 100 T-64,
Ukraine - 1667 T-64

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Well, how much can you envy ...
As of 2012:

He smiled. Thank you. It would be better if he noted on the list who received them for nothing, not being forced under the Warsaw Pact.
Who bought them after the collapse of the USSR

Quote: svp67

Ukraine - 1032 T-72,

Quote: svp67

Ethiopia - 200 T-72E1

By the way, the Ethiopians are blacks, and they still haven’t received all 200 tanks, they need to put normal engines and improve their armor protection. And the total should be 1032.

By the way, the United States bought for targets, and quite a lot in private collections.


And by the way, do not forget that it was the T-72 that was exported by the USSR to the world, because you were not afraid to declassify a simplified, mobilization tank.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

you need normal engines

That's right, otherwise you put on the Soviet T72, everything that is not good, and then the Ethiopians suffer from this ... It would be better if the Germans bought the engines ...

[sapran]

Why didn’t they buy them? There are 2 dozen options for modernization packages for T-72 from 12 countries. Choose whatever you like. WHAT IS DISTURBING? !!

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

That's right, otherwise they put it on the Soviet T72, in

You didn’t get it. Something that changed Soviet engines.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Of course. And sooner or later it will be.

How is it "... with a probability tending to zero ..."

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

How is it "... with a probability tending to zero ..."

Well, do not be so friendly to the Ukrainian military-industrial complex to be configured.

Remember about the 2000 T-64 cut? How much time has passed? And how is the confirmation?))

and okay. the question is, how does a professional tanker know how best to go into battle with or without a rubber anti-cumulative screen? (choice or or) Is it possible to put ... a rubber burdock ... put or reject in anger?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

and okay. the question is, how does a professional tanker know how best to go into battle with or without a rubber anti-cumulative screen? (choice or or) Is it possible to put ... a rubber burdock ... put or reject in anger?

What are you talking about? About this notorious "skirt" in the front, under the NLD? If about her, then I WILL REPEAT ... It would be better if it were like this ...

since this "skirt" is very quickly lost, especially on rough terrain and when you need to use UBO ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

What are you talking about? About this notorious "skirt" in front

About any

Quote: svp67

It would be better if it were like this ...

How So? In your opinion on the T-80U there is no self-digging knife?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

How So? In your opinion on the T-80U there is no self-digging knife?

Yes, but it's done differently...
as on previous modifications, but in the future they planned to install the UBO on the T80 in this way ... and it would be better.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Yes, but it is made differently ..

was he not metal?

Quote: svp67

planned to install the UBO in this way ... and that would be better.

If I honestly catch a big difference. What is better in the new in relation to anti-cumulative resistance?

And the question remains in force better without a rubber screen? Or with it?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

What is new in relation to cumulative resistance?

"SCARY" cumulative stream, has a number of "congenital weaknesses". The installation of the UBO, according to the "new" way, would prevent the penetration of the NLD and would save the life of the driver.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

setting UBO, in a "new way" would prevent the breakdown of the NLD and save the life of the driver.

So I don’t argue, I’m just asking - what has changed there? Accidentally an air gap did not appear there? A gap?

By the way, the T-62 is completed, almost)))

Now I can’t decide what to take the T-64B or

http://www.modeli.com.ua/product/sbornaya-model-sovetskogo-osnovnogo-boevogo-tan
ka-t-80u-xact-models-XS35001.html

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

accidentally the air gap did not appear there? gap?

That's it, plus the increased thickness of the shovel itself ...

[Kars]

Quote: Kars

? accidentally no air gap appeared? clearance?

Quote: svp67

That's it

Anyone heard anything?

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

Now I can’t decide what to take the T-64B or

And whose model is that?

By the way, the T-62 is completed, almost)))

What a strange "dinosaur", "name" without a number, is he from whose army?

[Kars]

It seems that they talked on the topic - Trumpeter. On the Scythian, my hands are crooked.


Syria.

[Kars]

It is a pity that this picture did not get caught before painting.

[Kars]

By the way, he still touched the future from an insider look.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

By the way still hurt

Even the IS7 has already been modeled. Well what can I say - Well done and shame on us.

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

Even the IS7 has already been modeled

T-10 will also campaign in 2014.
And ours - the Scythian is for children. The star - took the four - presented. And they did T-90 for 10 years. And then the meng did better.

and so maybe the Russian state could ozobotitsa patriotic development of youth, but ..

[Kars]

By the way, I caught the moment of propaganda and distortion of tank history in the Journal of Technology and Armament.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

About any

The benefit of the RUBBER-SCREEN screen mounted on the tank is UNCONDABLE, and not only in terms of protecting the tank from cumulative shells ...

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

The use of the RUBBER-SCREEN screen mounted on the tank is UNCONDABLE

I don’t need more.

[svp67]

Quote: Kars

It is possible to put .. rubber burdock.

And this "skirt" first appeared on the T80B, on the T64 it was not previously installed in such a way that this is also not your "know-how"

[Kars]

Quote: svp67

on T64 it was not previously installed in such a way that this is also not your "know-how"

And I do not argue about the primacy in this matter.
All the same, the Germans were the first to install anti-cumulative screens in WWII.

[sapran]

And so slowly but somehow they began to understand
1. premature undermining of KZ has already been recognized (it remains only to understand what the focus depends on But didn’t they publish it in the research institute?) What do you think for a 105 mm cumulative funnel, what obstacle and material is enough to neutralize its energy? (in my opinion this is a calculation task from the Department of Materials Science, al-humanitarian?)
2. If your knowledge is so valuable and secret then say so, but don’t tell rubbish about tutors oki? (I honestly wanted to come to a single conceptual material for the subject of our dispute)
3. T-72, T80BV, T-80R, T-80U withdrawn from service of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (non-liquid) The Russian side was not interested in the proposal to exchange new equipment. Some of the cars were cut, gas cutters were not reached and exhibited and successfully sold in a third of the country (it’s cheaper and somewhat more profitable for the economy of a very poor country and its aircraft on whose balance this property hangs)
4. The Russian Federation has planned to destroy more than 2 thousand T-64s, this is logical and justified for the RF Armed Forces, since more than 4-6 thousand vehicles of the T-72 family are offered to the markets at a price cheaper than "Chinese candy wrappers" There is a collapse of the entire armored vehicle market for everyone countries of technology manufacturers threatens. And you are talking about the T-64 beads mosque ... wonderful.
5 Have you at least somehow sided with the army? Logistics is a familiar word (it works on a civilian too) So draw conclusions by looking at + and - from various weapons and support options for specific countries.
And they didn’t say anything good about protection either, and according to technology, only spoil the air ...

[sapran]

Yes Yes It’s not necessary to advertise. (So it’s not long to get into the enemies of the people)
... To hold back and collapse a little different things ... but still, let's so that UVZ is simply "not interested" in modernizing the legacy of the USSR - they have very "effective managers" and they know how to count. For some reason, you don’t want to think about the fact that apart from UVZ there is a TRZ, but these are jobs in regions with guaranteed payment (something like this)

[legionary]

Quote: sapran

Yes Yes It’s not necessary to advertise. (So it’s not long to get into the enemies of the people)

please explain ?
I agree with the rest

[sapran]

Do not look for a catch in words.
1. what needs to be improved in the machines of the T-72-90 series in the first place - correctly the LMS (a fairly simple solution but monetary in terms of costs)
2 And in the T-64-80? (the engine is a bit more complicated (the presence of the engine + transmission + auxiliary systems = body work but in terms of money compared to the LMS it’s a penny)
So there is no point in investing in R&D on this topic by Russia.

[Jake danzels]

Quote: sapran

1. what needs to be improved in the machines of the T-72-90 series in the first place - correctly the LMS (a fairly simple solution but monetary in terms of costs)

Yes, but all the same, military tests are necessary, and I didn’t blind you from what was, I mean that it will be like with the T72-BZ there is armor, but damn it, the mistakes are the same old ones, there is an aiming range, but damn ergonomics in the furnace, etc. .

Quote: sapran

And in the T-64-80? (the engine is a bit more complicated (the presence of the engine + transmission + auxiliary systems = body work but in terms of money compared to the LMS it’s a penny)

Do you mean 64 and 80 RF or Ukraine?
If Ukraine, then yes, modernization is necessary (I'm not talking about BM Bulat, namely, the Kyrgyz Republic with the replacement of the power plant + APU) of at least all tanks to the T-64BV level.
If about the Russian Federation, then we transfer from empty to empty because it makes no sense to upgrade the tanks that were withdrawn from service (64 already, 80 replace in the army).

It is a pity that at one time the Russian Federation and Ukraine did not change the T-80B / BV / U to the T-80UD. It would not be so sad:

[Bad_gr]

Quote: sapran

For some reason, besides UVZ, there is a TRZ, for some reason you don’t want to think about jobs in the regions with guaranteed payment (something like this)

UVZ Corporation includes the following enterprises:
OJSC “Research and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod”
OJSC Ural Transport Engineering Plant (Uraltransmash)
OJSC "Plant No. 9"
OJSC Rubtsovsk Machine-Building Plant
OJSC Kamensk-Uralsky Foundry
Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant - Uraltrac LLC and Vityaz Engineering Company OJSC
NPO Elektromashina OJSC
Uralkriomash OJSC
OJSC "All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Transport Engineering"
OJSC Central Research Institute Burevestnik
OJSC Central Research Institute of Materials
JSC "Research Institute of Engines"
OJSC Ural Scientific Research Technological Institute
OJSC "Scientific and Production Company for the Implementation of Scientific and Engineering Innovations"
OJSC "Ural Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
JSC "Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
OJSC "Special Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
OJSC "Murom Special Design Bureau"
Ural Heavy Equipment - Uralvagonzavod CJSC UBT-UVZ
Volchan Mechanical Plant
OJSC "Electroautomat"
OJSC "ElectroMachine-building Plant" LEPSE ""
LLC UVZ-Logistic
CJSC UVZ-Trans
Sambre et meuse
Tver Carriage Works OJSC
OJSC Tomsk Electrotechnical Plant

[svp67]

Quote: Bad_gr

UVZ Corporation includes the following enterprises:

I’ll add that many are now asking for this corporation, since this is a GUARANTEE of government orders ...

[sapran]

It’s very good that they are part of a corporation ...
Now the question is what they got into?
How many cars and by what type did they upgrade?
How is the distribution in R&D going?

[psiho117]

"Outside were such luminaries in the production of tanks as England, Italy, Russia." - Am I the only one confused on this list by Italy?

Quote: uhjpysq1

))))) rather they will switch to leopards.) banderlogs like German junk

in vain you are so - Leo is a very worthy car. And the German used is often better than the Russian "off the assembly line".

[Lesorub]

Great tank !!! Even for 2013, the booking, the fire control system is at the proper level (special + frontal booking "knife" system), the automatic loader where needed. It is a pity that Ukraine is developing a lot of interesting things, but there are very few new models of new technology in service!

[demotivator]

"Yatagan" is a beautiful Turkish word. By the way, just like "Maidan", it also comes from Turkey.

[DmitriVoronez]

T-90 steers that says it all

[Surovy topor]

A lot of blah blah blah and the Turks took Leopard into service, and the result was the development of Altai MBT by them. Well, the most epic result is the luminaries-winners are disgraced in Syria and Iraq. And Russia ... Russia is overtaking to the fullest in tanks)