Military Review

The main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan"

118
The main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan"



A tender for the creation of a modern tank for the Turkish armed forces was announced in February 2000. It was perceived as one of the most attractive in the field of armaments and attracted the attention of all the tank-producing powers of the world. The “Project of the Century” was valued at $ 4–7 billion and initially assumed that the winning country would supply 250 main battle tanks to Ankara and receive an order to organize their further production in Turkey, bringing the total number to 1000 units. This ambitious project was included in the 30-year modernization program of the armed forces, to which Turkey plans to allocate $ 150 billion. Leading companies in the field of tank construction were invited to participate in the tender. As a result of the selection, Germany, the USA, Ukraine and France reached the final. Such luminaries in the production of tanks as England, Italy, Russia remained behind.

Germany presented to Ankara a project for assembling a limited fleet of cars “Leopard” 2А6. France has also developed a plan for a "limited" factory of existing Leclerc tanks. The United States, under the same conditions, offered to assemble Abrams M1А2 machines. Ukraine has gone further than its competitors, having developed specifically for Turkey a project for assembling an unlimited fleet of a “purely Turkish” model of the T-84 tank, armed with an 120-mm gun. Since Turkey is a member of NATO, one of the indispensable conditions of the competition was the compliance of the tank’s main armament with the standards of this military bloc. Such a requirement excluded from the participants of the competition, for example, Russia.



The participating countries submitted their new cars to the competition: Germany - Leopard-2А6, USA - M1A2 Abrams, Ukraine - T-84 – 120 (“Yatagan”), France - Leclerk. The Turks meticulously tested them for about two years. Moreover, the tests were carried out both on the landfills of Turkey and on the territories of the competing countries. According to experts, the technical characteristics of the chances of all four cars were approximately equal. According to unofficial results of complex tests, Leopard and T-84 took the first and second places. The Turks worked with each tenderer in confidence, so the information was not disclosed.

The Ukrainian machine, the factory index “object 478Н”, later called “Yatagan” (in various publications - KERN 2-120, Т-84-120, Т-84У; however, these names were not used in the KMBR), at the end of 1999 It was completely assembled from components produced in Ukraine, although it was envisaged, at the request of the customer, to install systems and components of foreign manufacturers.



When developing the Yatagan, technical solutions were used that were verified during the modernization of the T-72-120 tank, which was first demonstrated at the IDEX-99 international arms exhibition.

The undercarriage of the tank was borrowed from the main battle tank T-84U “Oplot” and consists of a sprung part and a tracked propulsion unit. The suspension of the torsion tank, tracked propulsion unit consists of 6 supporting double-disk rubberized rollers with a diameter of 670 mm from aluminum alloy, supporting rollers, front guide and rear drive wheels on each side. On the first, second and sixth nodes of the suspension there are telescopic hydraulic double-acting shock absorbers. The guide wheels have caterpillar tensioning mechanisms. The design of the tank allows you to overcome water obstacles to a depth of 1,8 m without training.



The layout of the main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan" is made according to the classic type - in front of the case there is a control compartment with a driver's seat, followed by a fighting compartment, and in the stern of the tank is a power transmission compartment. The body has a multi-layered reservation, consisting of sheets of armor and ceramic materials. There is also the possibility of hanging blocks of dynamic protection.




MTO is equipped with a multi-fuel diesel engine capable of operating in different climatic conditions at ambient temperatures from -40 ° to + 55 °, as well as in high-altitude areas at altitudes up to 3000 meters. The ventilation system supplying air to the engine ensures reliable operation of the engine with natural dust. MTO has a system of maximum concealment due to thermal factors of detection.


The main armament of the T-84-120 Yatagan tank is an 120-mm smooth-bore cannon KBM2, which is stabilized in two planes, of Ukrainian production, the design of which meets the requirements of NATO standards. Considering the tight timeframe for preparation for the tender, in the fall of 1999, the KMDB concluded a contract with the Swiss company Swiss Ordnace Athice Corp. through Ukrspetsexport Corporation. for the manufacture of 120-mm barrels for the gun KBM2.

Since the 120-mm gun (as opposed to the Russian 125-mm) uses unitary ammunition, a completely new automatic loader of the jammed type was developed, which was placed in the rear part of the tower in the rear mounted niche.



Loading a cannon tank "Yatagan" is made using automatic loader. The ammunition is forty shots - 22 shots are placed in the conveyor of the automatic loader in a special compartment in the rear of the tower, separated from the fighting compartment by an armored partition, there are expelling panels in the compartment roof, which ensures the safety of the crew in the event of an explosion housed in the hull, and another 16 shot placed in the fighting compartment.





The rate of fire 8 - 10 shots / min, and also provided for the modes of semi-automatic and manual loading.



All types of ammunition developed in accordance with NATO standards (STANAG 4385 and STANAG 4110), APFSDS-T, NEAT-MP-T and others, as well as laser-guided missiles made in Ukraine, adapted to the caliber 120 mm, could be used.

An additional weapon was the 7,62-mm machine gun, paired with a cannon and a 12,7 anti-aircraft gun, mounted on the hatch of the tank commander and stabilized in the vertical plane.





The aiming firing is provided by the fire control complex (TOR) from the T-84U Oplot tank, but adapted to the new type of weaponry. The TEM consists of a thermal imager, a gunner’s day sight, a commander’s observation and observation complex, an anti-aircraft gun, an anti-aircraft gun control system, a ballistic computer with input sensors and a weapon stabilizer.





According to experts, the technical characteristics of the four machines that participated in the second stage of the competition were approximately equal. But according to unofficial results of complex tests, which took place both on the landfills of Turkey and on the territory of the competing countries, Leopard and Yatagan took the first and second places.

The advantages of the Ukrainian tank could be attributed to the fact that it is about 10 t lighter than its competitor, its body is lower, that is, the tank is less vulnerable, overcomes water obstacles to the depth of 1,8 m without preparation. In addition, the unique Kharkov engine was adapted to work in hot climates, so he did not lose power at air temperatures up to + 55 ° С.

However, in modern military business, winners are often determined by factors unrelated to product quality. The outcome of the case often depends on the political weight category of the participating country, its traditional historical orientation and belonging to one or another military-political blocs, as well as from the level of lobbying and investment conditions of applicants. So, according to experts, Italy lost its chances of participating in the tender even before it began after the disputes of Ankara and Rome around the Kurdish leader Ocalan being on the Apennine Peninsula. For France, the adoption by its parliament of a bill condemning the Turkish genocide against Armenians during the Ottoman Empire was a big minus. And the discussion in the US Congress of such a bill significantly reduced the chances of the traditionally strong Americans in the arms market. Berlin was also vulnerable, pointing to human rights violations in Turkey. In addition, having a lot of German equipment in service, Ankara is inclined to be wary of new large purchases. weapons from Germany, so that his presence does not become critical in the sense of dependence on Berlin.

Somewhat later, the war in Iraq began to make significant adjustments to the gender balance. As a result, it turned out that a politically inconspicuous Ukraine has its advantages - only Ankara could not make any political claims against Kiev. A factor was discovered that could play a role in determining the winning country, which gave hope for success in the tender.

Ukraine was able to lay out a few more trump cards, showing some flexibility and ingenuity in the pursuit of the contract. Ukrainian tank builders have been able to demonstrate a number of T-84 advantages over competitors: our machine is approximately 10 tons lighter, has greater maneuverability and high combat power. It is lower, that is, less vulnerable, and, unlike its competitors, it overcomes water barriers with depth 1,8 m without preparation. The unique Kharkov engine, like no other, is optimally adapted to work in hot climates - it does not lose power at air temperature plus 55 degrees At the same time, Ukraine put out the lowest price for T-84 and, very importantly, was also the only country that was ready to transfer Ankara 100% tank technologies. In addition, Kharkov KB them. Morozova, the developer of T-84, having implemented several technical and design innovations, at the final stage of the tender made a rather good move, inviting the Turks to give the tank a beautiful name - “Yatagan”.

But due to financial problems caused, in particular, by the devastating earthquake, Turkey moderated its military appetites. The tank tender allegedly got into the list of abbreviated programs. Preference was given to the modernization of the 170 obsolete tanks M60. The contract for 668 million was received by the Israeli company Israel Military Industries. The Turks also entered into a contract to supply the 298 2А4 tanks that were in service with the army of the Federal Republic of Germany, which had to undergo a major overhaul at the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall Landsysteme factories.

Due to a number of circumstances, Kiev placed great hopes on him. After fulfilling the Pakistani contract for the supply of 320 T-80-UD to Islamabad ($ 650 million), the main manufacturer of tanks in our country is the Kharkiv factory of them. Malysheva - experienced a sharp decline. Winning the tender could be a kind of lifeline for the entire armored industry. By the way, it was the armored theme that led and steadily holds Ukraine in the top ten of the world's largest manufacturers of military equipment and weapons. The situation was worsened by the fact that parallel contests for the supply of tanks to Greece and Malaysia, in which Ukraine participated, were unsuccessful for us. Under the pressure of political circumstances, Malaysia preferred Poland (RT-91), while Greece decided to buy German Leopard. The bitterness of Kiev’s losses in these tenders somewhat softened the breakthrough in Pakistan’s direction. In the summer of 2002, the plant. Malysheva, winning in tough competition with European manufacturers, signed a contract for $ 100 million to supply Islamabad with 285 engines for the new Al Khalid tank, which was developed as part of an international project with the participation of China, Pakistan and Ukraine.

Tactical and technical characteristics of the main battle tank T-84-120 "Yatagan"

Length with a cannon forward 9,664 m, length of the hull 7,075 m, width along the tracks 3,595 m, width along the side screens 3,775, height over the roof of the tower 2,215 m
Mass xnumx t
3 crew
Ground clearance (ground clearance) mm 515
Track width 2,8 m
Powerplant: 6-cylinder horizontal two-fuel two-stroke diesel engine with direct-flow 6TD-2 purge, hp 1200 power (883 kW) at 2600 rpm
Specific engine power 25 hp / t
Maximum speed on the highway 65 km / h, cross-country 45-50 km / h
Cruising on the highway 450 km on the main fuel tanks, 540 km with additional barrels
Cruising over rough terrain 350 km on main fuel tanks, 450 km with additional barrels
Fuel capacity 1300 L
Armament: 120-mm smoothbore gun KBM2, 7,62-mm machine gun, 12,7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun
Ammunition: 40 shots 120-mm, 4000 cartridges 7,62-mm, 450 cartridges 12,7-mm
Specific pressure on soil 0,93 kgf / cm2
Overcoming obstacle: ford with depth 1,8 m, with OPVT (equipment for underwater driving of tank) - up to 5 m, wall with height 1 m, ditch width 2,85 m, angle of lift 32 °, roll 25 °



































Sources:
http://www.depo.ua/ru/delovaja-stolica/2003_ds/2003_10_ds/128_toc/art11207.htm
http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/topic4700.html
http://armyman.info/bronetehnika/tanki/10338-osnovnoy-boevoy-tank-t-84-120-yatagan.html
http://armoredgun.org/brm008/ukraine_3.html
http://alternathistory.org.ua/tanki-oplot-i-yatagan-nadezhda-ukrainskogo-tankoproma
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  1. Vadivak
    Vadivak 10 December 2013 08: 48 New
    18
    Good car. IMHO. Andrei, I know what you look at, and what kind of engine is a VTD? If possible, who is his predecessor?

    But the key phrase of the article is still - Under the pressure of political circumstances European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR 10 December 2013 09: 25 New
      +8
      The same as on the T-64. If I remember 5TDF correctly. Special low-profile engine with opposing pistons with power from 700l.s. Good dvigtatel. For a long time, Soviet engine operators were tormented so that he would work without problems.
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 10 December 2013 10: 44 New
        +3
        Quote: PROXOR
        The same as on the T-64.


        Thank you Sergey.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. svp67
        svp67 10 December 2013 18: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: PROXOR
        Good dvigatel

        HA HA ... Good joke ..
    2. rolik2
      10 December 2013 09: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: Vadivak
      European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment,


      As soon as another domestic model of equipment flies at the next tender, the main reason for this is political factor.
      Isn’t it time to take a sober look at this situation? Yes, the results of a large number of tenders are politically motivated, but there are many reasons why domestic equipment is inferior to foreign.
      Such as the inability to provide normal warranty and post-warranty service (sometimes it comes to the fact that it is easier to get Chinese counterfeit than original spare parts, even if you have money).
      Ergonomics and living conditions in our technology are taken into account last, the arrangement of devices is dictated not by those who will work with them, but by designers (as they find it easier).
      Well and so on, you can tell the little things but they then make the game.
      1. Evgeny_Lev
        Evgeny_Lev 10 December 2013 10: 31 New
        +2
        Be careful with the term "domestic", as the subject does not apply to it.
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 10 December 2013 13: 57 New
          +8
          Quote: Evgeny_Lev
          Be careful with the term "domestic", as the subject does not apply to it.

          In the West, they make no distinction, from Vladivostok to Minsk, all Russians are the same and the attitude is the same, except that there are differences in the fact that Ukraine can be fucked and Russia is gone.
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 December 2013 13: 59 New
            +5
            Quote: carbofo
            No difference in the West

            Already 15 years have been making distinctions.
            Quote: carbofo
            unless there are differences in the fact that Ukraine can be fucked and Russia is gone.

            I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 December 2013 18: 55 New
              +5
              Quote: Kars
              I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.

              But you can sell what is left of the Union, everything that "the buyer's eye falls on," especially the Chinese one. And the prototype of the Su33 and the Zubr and much more ...
              1. sapran
                sapran 10 December 2013 18: 59 New
                +3
                it's easier to put a line in China, and then "meow" that everything is gone "copier" they say drives away customers ...
              2. rolik2
                10 December 2013 19: 00 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                But you can sell what remains of the Union,

                And why not?
                You, too, did not graze the rear in this matter.

              3. Kars
                Kars 10 December 2013 19: 13 New
                +5
                Quote: svp67
                ", especially the Chinese one. And the prototype of the Su33 and the Zubr and much more ...

                So for the sake of interest - why didn't the Russian Federation buy the prototype of the Su-33? And what did Ukraine have to do with it?

                But in fact, what are the Chinese money bad? Tank engines that you don’t like to buy regularly, and calmly react when Ukraine forbids their re-export.

                CHINA DEVELOPED UKRAINE AS A STRATEGIC PARTNER

                kotobood
                December 9th, 17:30 During the visit of the President of Ukraine to China, the parties signed the Strategic Cooperation Agreement for 2014-2018.
                During the visit of the President of Ukraine to China, the parties signed the Strategic Cooperation Agreement for 2014-2018. Ukraine has discussed strategic cooperation with China until 2018. In the next 5 years, China intends to import $ 10 trillion worth of products. And part of this quota may go to Ukraine. This is evidenced by the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation for 5 years, signed by the heads of state. The Chinese side highly appreciated the economic reforms in our country, opening its markets for Ukrainian products.

                Cooperation with the Celestial Empire will create powerful incentives for the development of the real sector of the Ukrainian economy. Commodity circulation between the countries will triple already next year - from 10 to 30 billion US dollars.
                Under the agreement, the parties signed more than 20 agreements, the drafts of which were prepared during the visit of the First Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Sergey Arbuzov to the PRC
                The parties identified agriculture, aircraft building, and mortgage programs as the most strategic directions for enhancing investment and economic cooperation. Chairman of the People’s Republic of China Xi Jinping announced that starting next year, Ukraine will become a major food supplier. Despite the 10-year period established by the Celestial Empire for certification of agricultural imports, the quality standards of Ukrainian corn, soy and barley were agreed in less than a year.
                The parties signed a protocol on phytosanitary and inspection requirements regarding the export of the above crops from Ukraine. The agreement will significantly expand the range of agricultural supplies to the PRC market and bring Ukraine into the category of the main food supplier.
                Among other things, China confirmed its intentions to complete the project for the construction of the Air Express railway line, which will connect Kiev with Boryspil. According to the signed Memorandum, the rolling stock will be manufactured by the Kryukov Carriage Works.
                In addition, agreements were signed on the development of the aircraft industry in Ukraine. On the basis of the Zaporozhye engine-building enterprise "Motor-Sich" it is planned to expand production areas, create joint ventures that will provide a full cycle of aircraft construction.

                The parties reached strategic agreements in the mortgage sector. In particular, a Memorandum was signed between the state mortgage institution and the Chinese corporation CITIC Construction on the construction of affordable housing in Ukraine. For these purposes, China will provide $ 15 billion for a period of 15 years with the possibility of prolonging and expanding this project. Implementation of the project will reduce interest rates on loans and significantly reduce the housing line.

                1. svp67
                  svp67 10 December 2013 19: 28 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Kars
                  On the basis of the Zaporozhye engine-building enterprise "Motor-Sich" it is planned to expand production areas, create joint ventures that will provide a full cycle of aircraft construction.

                  Dreams ... dreams ... That's when they build, then we'll talk ...
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 December 2013 19: 30 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67
                    Dreams ... dreams ... That's when they build, then we'll talk ...

                    The funny thing is that just the Chinese can be trusted, they are not interested in talking like some An-70s.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 10 December 2013 19: 34 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Kars
                      The funny thing is that just the Chinese can be trusted, they are not interested in talking like some An-70s.
                      So remember this, if you can still hide from the West from Russia, then this trick will not work with China, so my condolences to you.
                      And at the expense of AN70, it is better to keep quiet, because in this situation, Ukraine is an outspoken "kidok" ...
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 10 December 2013 19: 53 New
                        +2
                        Quote: svp67
                        So remember this, if you can still hide from the West from Russia, then this trick will not work with China

                        Hide from Russia by the West)))) and where are we in the process of AN-70 to hide behind them?
                        Quote: svp67
                        so my condolences to you.

                        Well, why so, you can work normally with China.
                        Quote: svp67
                        And at the expense of AN70, it is better to keep quiet, because in this situation, Ukraine is an outspoken "kidok" ...

                        Well, I think that from the Russian Federation as a lever of coercion.
                        The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine proposes to the People's Deputy of Ukraine to replenish the authorized capital of the Antonov State Enterprise by UAH 111,9 million to continue construction of the AN-70 aircraft under the state defense order of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. This is stated in the bill No. 3744 "On Amendments to Appendix No. 3 to the Law of Ukraine" On the State Budget of Ukraine for 2013 "regarding the State Enterprise" Antonov ", the text of which is posted on the website of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
                        (Read more ... Collapse)

                        "Today SE" Antonov "is carrying out work under a state contract with the Ministry of Defense regarding the purchase of AN-70 aircraft for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. To ensure this work, it is necessary to carry out work at the enterprise to prepare the production of AN-70 aircraft, which, in accordance with of the national program for the creation of the AN-70 military transport aircraft and its purchase under the state defense order, approved by the law of Ukraine dated February 5.02.2004, 1462 No. XNUMX, must be carried out with the involvement of the state budget and other sources of funding not prohibited by law, "the explanatory note says to the document.

                        At the present time, as noted, there are no free working capital to carry out these works in the Antonov State Enterprise.

                        In order to ensure the fulfillment of the state contract with the Ministry of Defense regarding the creation and purchase of the AN-70 aircraft and due to the lack of free funds from the enterprise, it is proposed to amend Appendix No. 3 to the Law of Ukraine "On the State Budget of Ukraine for 2013" and provide for the state agency Of Ukraine for the management of state corporate rights and property, expenditures from the general fund in the amount of UAH 111,9 million under the budget program "Replenishment of the authorized capital of the state enterprise" Antonov "by reducing the expenses of the Ministry of Defense under the budget program" Development of weapons and military equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine " ...

                        "The adoption of the law will allow to continue work on the construction of the AN-70 aircraft under the state defense order in the interests of the Ministry of Defense, as well as create conditions for stabilizing the operation of the enterprise and further development of the aviation industry," the authors of the bill explain.

                        I said for a long time there was no need to communicate with the Russian Federation, and India itself would have sold them for a long time, and they would not have modernized the AN-32.
                2. svp67
                  svp67 10 December 2013 19: 30 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  and calmly react when Ukraine prohibits their re-export.

                  We, thank God, have already changed their minds and stopped concluding openly "ridiculous" agreements with China, and they stopped letting them around, so you are their last hope and they do not want to lose you yet ...
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 December 2013 19: 32 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67
                    Thank God, we have already thought better of it and have ceased to conclude with China

                    You already have nothing special to offer, except for the layouts of Almaty and PAK
                    1. Dmitriy1975
                      Dmitriy1975 10 December 2013 22: 26 New
                      +5
                      Have you returned from Maidan?
              4. Kars
                Kars 10 December 2013 19: 13 New
                +2

                The Celestial Empire decided to support the financial sector of Ukraine as well. And a number of media outlets next year, China will provide the National Bank of Ukraine with an export loan of $ 5 billion with the possibility of expanding the currency swap in bilateral foreign trade settlements. The parties also agreed on the entry of Chinese banks into the Ukrainian market and the opening of branches of Ukrainian banks in China. In addition, the People's Bank of the People's Republic of China expressed interest in purchasing Ukrainian bonds of external loan. The parties have not yet announced the amount of the planned purchase, but we are talking about an inflow of foreign currency into the country in the amount of several billion dollars.
            2. lab29
              lab29 10 December 2013 19: 38 New
              +2
              I have not heard that Ukraine would sell something in debt. Or in exchange for writing off debts.
              But what, can you sell a lot of things?)))
              1. sapran
                sapran 10 December 2013 19: 42 New
                -1
                Not except for "singed" Gorilka and "etched Roshen" and there is nothing to offer crying
                ... Non-Ukrainians feel bad about the fat-drug from him, "Home-cowbass" is soy in theory and does not meet the standards of the Customs Union (there are mostly Muslims)
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 10 December 2013 10: 42 New
        +4
        Quote: rolik2
        failure to provide normal warranty and post warranty service


        Alexander with all due respect, have you read carefully?

        Ukraine went further than its competitors by developing a project for the assembly of an unlimited park specifically for Turkey
        1. rolik2
          10 December 2013 15: 36 New
          +3
          Quote: Vadivak
          Alexander with all due respect, have you read carefully?

          I did not mean specifically this case, but the situation in general.
          Take the same India, it is forced to purchase Chinese parts, because the Russian components in the right quantity are simply not produced.
        2. duke
          duke 11 December 2013 07: 08 New
          0
          but nevertheless, the Turks chose the Korean version ... why would it be if in Ukraine they were offered such sweet conditions ???
      3. Argon
        Argon 10 December 2013 11: 47 New
        +3
        I cannot but agree, with the opinion of rolik2, there is some truth in the view of ergonomics. The issue of service provision (financial costs of organizing it) is less related to the very sample of technology, but rather to the sphere of economic planning, and is not initially included in the cost of the sample, For this reason, the cost of "our" equipment is significantly lower, but in fact, it brings more headaches to the owner. Although, of course, everything depends on the contract itself. As for the Turkish tender, the "Yatagan", in fact, an experimental car, had to compete with the samples, A number of parameters related to the cost of the life cycle for him, unlike competitors, is not known. It is also worth remembering the end of this anecdote-the Turks, having seen enough, having tested the tanks, felt that everything they proposed was bad and expensive and decided (not without a hookah ) to develop a tank independently. The result was "Altai" which cannot even withstand the requirements for integration into the NATO BIUS.
        1. Kars
          Kars 10 December 2013 12: 00 New
          +3
          The Turkish tender is an obsessively politicized decision - because everyone already knows how closely they work together.
          Quote: Argon
          It is also worth remembering the end of this joke, the Turks having seen enough, having tested the tanks, considered that everything they had been offered was bad and expensive and decided (not without a hookah) to develop the tank on their own.

          But before that, they had bought 300 leopardoa 2A4 B / U. And the decision to create it is self-sufficient - this is a common Turkish trend, now they are trying to create almost everything themselves. Or organize production on their territory.
    3. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 10 December 2013 10: 42 New
      +2
      Most likely diesel 6TD
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 10 December 2013 10: 45 New
        +2
        Quote: wanderer_032
        Most likely diesel 6TD


        Like he is. 6TD-2
        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR 10 December 2013 11: 06 New
          13
          Quote: Vadivak
          Most likely diesel 6TD

          Quote: Vadivak
          Like he is. 6TD-2

          I do not argue, I answered only by looking at the appearance of the engine. But we will be realistic. 6TD-2 is still the same 5TDF, which began its history with 5TD in 550hp To call it different is the same as saying that the B84 or B92 engine is completely different than the B2 1940. (For reference, B84 and B92 are currently installed tank engines. They are installed on T-72 tanks of all modifications and on the T-90. Well, B-2 is a legend. It was first installed on object A32 which, after state testing, received the T-34 index .)

          A moment of positive time I already remembered about the T-34.
          War veteran filling out a visa application for Germany:
          Count - the date of the last visit to Germany - the old man wrote 1944-1945.
          Count - what drove into Germany and options: Airplane, car, train, ship, other. Grandfather chose another and wrote in a number of T-34s.
          1. cth; fyn
            cth; fyn 10 December 2013 11: 47 New
            +4
            War veteran filling out a visa application for Germany:

            Enchantingly, grandfather touched Germany.
          2. ytqnhfk
            ytqnhfk 10 December 2013 14: 01 New
            +4
            Grandfather bow with great respect !! Not everyone can say that he drove to Germany on the legendary t -34!
          3. svp67
            svp67 10 December 2013 18: 57 New
            +2
            Quote: PROXOR
            But we will be realistic. 6TD-2 is still the same 5TDF, which began its history with 5TD in 550hp To call it different is the same as saying that the B84 or B92 engine is completely different than the B2 1940

            But if so then with 4TD ...
            And by design you are wrong, do you think the letter "F" is simple so it disappeared from the name?
            And in relation to the development of B2-learn materiel ...
    4. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka 10 December 2013 13: 16 New
      +3
      Quote: Vadivak

      But the key phrase of the article is still - Under the pressure of political circumstances

      It has always been so all over the world, it is and will be. Such a reality.
    5. avdkrd
      avdkrd 10 December 2013 13: 22 New
      +8
      Quote: Vadivak
      European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.

      I agree, but I think that Russia is also extremely uninterested in Ukraine moving its equipment. Moreover, logically, Russia should make every effort to completely collapse the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. What is this information worth - Ukraine was also the ONLY country ready to transfer 100% of tank technology to Ankara. Even Italy, whose tanks have, to put it mildly, dubious combat properties, even in their thoughts, does not have to give someone (an ally in the bloc) TECHNOLOGIES. Ukraine consistently squanders the technologies that were created in the Soviet Union and form the basis of including Russian technology. Without going into disputes that the T90 or Yatagan is better, we can clearly say that they have a common pedigree and, despite differences in layout and even in ideology, they have technical solutions inherent in the Soviet tank school. The scimitar is definitely a good tank and for Turkey it was the best choice, given the price factor in general, no doubt. The strengthening of Turkey by the technology of such a level in Russia is clearly nothing, especially if it has nothing to do with it. Russia also sins with technology transfer, and apparently modern marketing in the field of armaments implies the inevitability of such processes, but at least I haven’t heard about 100%, mainly we are talking about joint development or about assembling assembly kits from our partner’s territory (India, for example).
      1. rolik2
        10 December 2013 15: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: avdkrd
        Ukraine consistently squanders the technologies that were created in the Soviet Union and form the basis of including Russian technology.


        ??? Russia has built a tank factory in India, a Su-27 assembly line for China, is that how you think ?? New marketing move? Or also squandering technology?
        By building a factory for the Turks and selling a license for the production of tanks, Ukraine would receive royalties as well as Russia from India.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 10 December 2013 16: 00 New
          +2
          Quote: rolik2
          Russia built India tank factory, China assembly line Su-27
          There is a rather curious situation with India: having its own factory, the number of T-90 purchased was repeatedly reviewed in favor of their supply from Russia in the direction of their increase.
          Regarding the Su-27 in China, no one supplied them with technology for the production of engines for the aircraft; engines are still being purchased in Russia. The Chinese engine stripped from our engine has very little engine life and is unlikely to compete with the native engine of the Su-27 even in the domestic market, let alone in the external one.
          1. rolik2
            10 December 2013 16: 08 New
            0
            I agree with the engines, but they already ALREADY do the glider, electronics, weapons. This does not turn out much worse.
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 December 2013 19: 03 New
              +2
              Quote: rolik2
              I agree with the engines, but they already ALREADY do the glider, electronics, weapons. This does not turn out much worse.

              Alas and ah, and to the delight of our defenders, the glider of "their" plane is worse, not significantly, but worse ...
          2. sapran
            sapran 10 December 2013 16: 10 New
            +1
            On engines "annoying omission" on which they are already working closely. But according to lipetronics, everything is probably in the reverse order.
          3. nick-name
            nick-name 13 December 2013 10: 02 New
            0
            Greetings!
            I remember I had a conversation with you about the security of the turret-mounted "Black Eagle" AZ, on the AZ diagram in the article you can see how much a similar AZ is protected from board. wink
      2. svp67
        svp67 10 December 2013 19: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: avdkrd
        I agree, but I think that Russia is also extremely not interested in Ukraine moving its equipment

        Don't go to the "fortuneteller", we DO NOT NEED competitors ...
  2. Tuzik
    Tuzik 10 December 2013 09: 03 New
    +3
    if they are associated with Europe, then this development will come in handy;
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR 10 December 2013 09: 26 New
      +2
      Do not croak - the egg will be laid.
    2. rolik2
      10 December 2013 09: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Tuzik
      associated with europe

      NATO association and standards are two different things from different operas.

      And the tank for 2000 is really good.
    3. Ivan Mechanic
      Ivan Mechanic 10 December 2013 09: 57 New
      0
      Considering that Ukraine’s steel does not fall into EU standards, Ukraine, like Poland, will have to buy used German or French tanks!
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 December 2013 12: 02 New
        +2
        Quote: Ivan Mechanic
        Given that Ukraine’s steel does not fall under EU standards

        can you justify this logically? especially for export to third countries? There’s no question of deliveries to your own aircraft - you don’t need to register a tank in the EU for this))))
        1. Hug
          Hug 10 December 2013 15: 57 New
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Quote: Ivan Mechanic
          Given that Ukraine’s steel does not fall under EU standards

          can you justify this logically? especially for export to third countries? There’s no question of deliveries to your own aircraft - you don’t need to register a tank in the EU for this))))


          You, dear, probably know what you are talking about. But I have a slightly different info. Namely: Ukrainian steel, incl. not "shovel-nail", but high-quality (including steel ESR, VAR, etc.) are quite well represented in Europe, incl. in Germany. I say it because I know not by hearsay and do not use the OBS agency (one woman said), but I myself have some relation to this. In addition, the concept of GOST is well known here, as well as EURONORMA, DIN ,. AFNOR, ASTM, etc.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 10 December 2013 16: 10 New
            0
            Quote: Kram
            .... But I have a slightly different info. Namely: Ukrainian steel, incl. not "shovel-nail", but high-quality (including steel ESR, VAR, etc.) are quite well represented in Europe, incl. in Germany ...

            There was a video on YouTube with an interview from some UVZ manager. He said that steel for wagons was previously purchased in Ukraine, but recently it has become inferior to Chinese in quality. Steel was purchased from the Chinese.

            By the way, Ukraine used to be able to supply steel at dumping prices, but due to the rise in gas prices for Ukraine to foreign market prices,
            this is hardly possible.
            1. sapran
              sapran 10 December 2013 16: 17 New
              0
              MANAGER with UVZ? !!! Yes, you are right, as always ... just as in the interview laughing
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 10 December 2013 16: 38 New
                0
                Quote: sapran
                MANAGER with UVZ? !!! Yes, you are right, as always ... just as in the interview

                Interviews were taken directly at the car factory. Sense of lying to a correspondent about a metal supplier? if you buy Ukrainian, but said that Chinese - for this you can not get shabby.
                1. sapran
                  sapran 10 December 2013 17: 22 New
                  -1
                  What does it have to do with lies? If it is profitable to take Chinese steel, then only you and in favor.
  3. Prohor
    Prohor 10 December 2013 09: 11 New
    +1
    Quote: Vadivak
    European partners will not allow Ukraine to move their equipment, because not FIG.

    They won't. But the "Maidan" will be promised ...
    It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 December 2013 12: 08 New
      +3
      Quote: Prokhor
      They won't. But I will promise the "Maidan"

      vryatli promise.

      And as I see it, there are some prospects to suppress UVZ in the Russian tank market?

      And nobody is obliged to help Ukraine to move its equipment to Ukraine - these are the tasks of Ukraine itself.
    2. GastaClaus69
      GastaClaus69 10 December 2013 13: 12 New
      +5
      Quote: Prokhor
      It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?

      Better and not necessary. As with the AN-70 it will be, bad, good do not care, the main thing is politics.
    3. sapran
      sapran 10 December 2013 14: 05 New
      0
      Rogozin examined a number of defense industry enterprises. But most likely he does not intend to change his decision and the general direction on this issue.
      ... But a number of developments have already been presented in the last topic with the T-90SM (promptly I would say very quickly :( (pryuvat Solomatina and Co.))
    4. svp67
      svp67 10 December 2013 19: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Prokhor
      It is interesting that there are at least some contacts between the KKBM and our tank builders, joint work?

      Of course, now "Kharkovites" are lured to our factories, to work on the profile ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 December 2013 19: 05 New
        +2
        Quote: svp67
        Of course, now "Kharkovites" are lured to our factories, to work on the profile ...

        Really? And many were lured?
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 December 2013 19: 14 New
          +2
          Quote: Kars
          Really? And many were lured?

          Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ... You better think about your enterprises ... who will work there? There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally, neither we nor the West NEED it ...
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 December 2013 19: 20 New
            +2
            Quote: svp67
            Don’t worry, we have enough

            I don’t worry. Because you vryatli whom you could lure.
            Quote: svp67
            There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally, neither we nor the West NEED

            It’s good that his well-being is neither from you nor from the West (by the way, to the West it’s mostly parallel, there are private offices, and what we need to sell them with ease, and you have nothing to buy after the Pakistan contract).
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 December 2013 19: 22 New
              +3
              Quote: Kars
              It’s good that his well-being is neither from you nor from the West (by the way, to the West it’s mostly parallel, there are private offices, and what we need to sell them with ease, and you have nothing to buy after the Pakistan contract).

              Well, I think that after "Thai" no one will want to contact you. What's the point of waiting ten years for an order ...?
              1. Kars
                Kars 10 December 2013 19: 28 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                Well, I think that after "Thai" no one will want to contact you

                We will see
                Quote: svp67
                T. What is the point of waiting ten years for the completion of the order ...?

                Azerbaijan made less than hundreds of T-90s with serial continuous production for two years))))

                2 Leopard 2A4, as of October 2013. In total, in 2012, the Ministry of Defense of Indonesia ordered from Germany 42 Leopard 2A4 tanks, 61 Leopard 2 Revolution tanks and 10 armored bridge spacers and armored recovery vehicles. Deliveries of equipment are scheduled for 2013-2014. as of 2012
                and this is a speech on used tanks
                1. sapran
                  sapran 10 December 2013 19: 35 New
                  0
                  Firstly, there is a special "tuning", and secondly, he came with a makeweight in the form of air defense and it is really good.
                  ... and Kars does not need to tell the "rotozee" how many T-90s were built in the same place, now they are buying steel in China, but for now, order and bring the year it will definitely pass, and there the holidays (post-holidays) generally worked in 3 shifts, and you are here tell about 2 years. Here you have to look at India good
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 11 December 2013 00: 23 New
                    +2
                    Quote: sapran
                    no need to tell the "rotozei" how many T-90s were built in the same place, now they are buying steel in China, ....

                    Share the source of information about Chinese steel for the T-90.
                    1. sapran
                      sapran 11 December 2013 00: 47 New
                      +1
                      If you do not understand the irony in the post, then I'm sorry ...
                      1. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 11 December 2013 18: 58 New
                        0
                        Quote: sapran
                        If you do not understand the irony in the post, then I'm sorry ...
                        Regarded as sarcasm. But I thought, what if a person really thinks that wagons and tanks are made of one metal ....
                2. svp67
                  svp67 10 December 2013 19: 39 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Kars
                  Azerbaijan made less than hundreds of T-90s with serial continuous production for two years))))

                  Well, what can you do with the "Indian" order "OUT OF THE QUEUE", so they have to connect Omsk ..
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 December 2013 19: 55 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67
                    Well, what can you do with the "Indian" order "OUT OF THE QUEUE", so they have to connect Omsk ..

                    Did they make T-90 for Omsk in Azerbaijan? They even sold machines to China there,
          2. rolik2
            10 December 2013 19: 22 New
            0
            Quote: svp67
            Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...


            Quote: svp67
            Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...

            It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians laughing
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 December 2013 19: 41 New
              0
              Quote: rolik2
              It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians

              The main thing is that we will see her.
              And the Ukrainians will not be allowed to the "Armata", they will have enough work to modernize the T72 ... in Omsk
              1. rolik2
                10 December 2013 19: 47 New
                -2
                Are you so sure that there will be something to look at ???

                Quote: svp67
                enough T72 modernization ... in Omsk

                Enlighten ?? when there they began to upgrade ??
            2. svp67
              svp67 11 December 2013 00: 51 New
              +2
              Quote: rolik2
              It’s clear that we’ll probably not see Armata in this life if Russia began to lure the Ukrainians
              Not at the seams, but at the SEAMS. Your BTR4 is an excellent confirmation of this ...
              1. Kars
                Kars 11 December 2013 00: 56 New
                +2
                Quote: svp67
                Our BTR4 is an excellent confirmation of this.

                Have you heard? Indonesia ordering an BTR4 pilot batch.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 11 December 2013 01: 00 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Kars
                  Have you heard? Indonesia ordering an BTR4 pilot batch.

                  How did you hear:
                  Admiral Marsetio, the chief of staff of the Indonesian Navy, outlining plans for replenishing the Navy with new weapons and equipment before local journalists on December 5, 2013, among other things, indicated that the Indonesian marines will be supplied five BTR-4 - as well as 37 Russian BMP-3F


                  Agree 5 and 37 - the difference is significant
                  1. sapran
                    sapran 11 December 2013 01: 05 New
                    +1
                    To be honest, after the BMP-3F I can hardly imagine the "Ladya". These are versatile machines. Most likely just studying the issue. + - operating the machine.
                    BMP-3f worthy heir to the USSR everything seems to be like a bunch.
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 11 December 2013 01: 06 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67

                    Agree 5 and 37 - the difference is significant

                    And if you imagine the difference between the wheeled armored personnel carrier and the tracked infantry fighting vehicle that were made during the Soviet era and which is already in service with Indonesia (and for which they paid with palm oil)

                    17 BMP-3F, as of 2012 [27]. The first 17 BMP-3F under a 2007 contract worth $ 40 million were delivered in 2010

                    By the way, it’s cool and the contract 2007 delivery of the first part (and totally 37) in three years.
                    1. sapran
                      sapran 11 December 2013 01: 09 New
                      +5
                      Kars there damn such a queue on the BMP-3f for 5-6 years waiting as a Lada in the USSR.
                      ...Honestly. laughing
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 01: 13 New
                        +1
                        Quote: sapran
                        Honestly.

                        I do not believe I do not believe.
                        Although if there is a shipment schedule I will look for the sake of interest.
          3. Alekseev
            Alekseev 10 December 2013 20: 10 New
            +2
            Quote: svp67
            Don’t worry, we’ll have enough ...

            Colleague and Kharkov classmate, my advice is not to enter into fruitless discussions with a "group of comrades". Here reason, logic, and your professionalism are nothing against the belligerent, albeit very far from the essence of the question, stubbornness and misunderstood "national pride", covered with beautiful pictures from newspapers. (Yandex pictures laughing) request
            Here the situation is just like in the famous parable of Christ from the Sermon on the Mount. About throwing beads ... (That is, it’s not worthless to talk in vain about something or to prove something to someone who is not capable or does not want to understand or evaluate it properly)
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 20: 14 New
              +1
              Quote: Alekseev
              do not engage in fruitless discussions with a "group of comrades." There is reason, and logic, and your professionalism is nothing,

              And where does the listed quality come from? Would you show at least a couple of people that have lured over the past 5 years.
      2. sapran
        sapran 10 December 2013 19: 09 New
        0
        Personally, I will be pleased if someone goes to you. May be doing what he loves. Just how real it is ... Nizhny Tagil seemed somehow very gloomy to me But there is a taste and color .... flasters.
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 December 2013 19: 17 New
          +2
          Quote: sapran
          Personally, I will be pleased if someone goes to you ... Nizhny Tagil seemed very gloomy to me, but there is a taste and color ..
          Not in Tagil, in Omsk, there now specialists are VERY necessary.
          1. sapran
            sapran 10 December 2013 19: 23 New
            -3
            ... But is such a Sho Barin gives the go-ahead for the restoration of production in Omsk or do they want to make a "remzavod" for sawing T-72 from it? If so then yes there is a process of "creative" work up to **** - mother.
  4. uhjpysq1
    uhjpysq1 10 December 2013 09: 15 New
    +2
    ))))) rather they will switch to leopards.) banderlogs like German junk
  5. tank64rus
    tank64rus 10 December 2013 09: 49 New
    0
    As I understand this machine is made to NATO standards. But having entered the EU, Ukraine will lose the remnants of its industry. If they give the Kharkov plant something to do at the mercy of future "owners", it will be to service the old "Leopards" that traitors in Ukraine and in Russia dream of. "Yatagan" is likely to remain in a single copy.
  6. wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 10 December 2013 11: 03 New
    +3
    An attempt by the Kharkov plant to win a vital contract for itself is likely to fail.
    In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.
    I think in the near future (if this goes on), the plant will go broke and close, that’s it.
    The machine itself represents mainly those design decisions and developments that have not been implemented in the Union.
    AZ of this type, for example, was planned to be installed during the development of ob.640 "Black Eagle" by the Omsk Design Bureau "Transmash".
    I do not exclude that Kharkiv residents "borrowed" it from them.
    1. sapran
      sapran 10 December 2013 14: 11 New
      +4
      Yes, yes. Borrowed ... what to borrow from the running layout and borrowing time? Given the type rather borrowed from Leclerc and began under the collapse of the Union.
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 10 December 2013 20: 48 New
        +2
        Work on ob.640 probably started back in the late 80s, after it went into a series of mods.T-80U, this very running layout in the mid 90s was not just a layout, but a full-fledged prototype.
        I mean, much earlier than February 2000. First shown at the VTTV-97 exhibition in Omsk (1997).
        It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower, which significantly distinguishes it from the Kharkov machine, plus completely new SLA and surveillance equipment, plus an AZ in the rear of the tower and a new gas turbine engine of 1500 hp.
        I hope I clarified the situation.
        1. Kars
          Kars 10 December 2013 20: 56 New
          +1
          Quote: wanderer_032
          First shown at the VTTV-97 exhibition in Omsk (1997).

          Leclerc was featured in 1994.
          Quote: wanderer_032
          It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower, which significantly distinguishes it from Kharkov

          Where you read this. There is no information about the uninhabited tower of the Black Eagle
          Quote: wanderer_032
          I hope I clarified the situation.

          I advise you to read all the same
          http://btvt.narod.ru/3/640/640.htm

          The hatch made the driver’s hatch, and the hatches, respectively, of the tank commander and gunner, were made in the tower. The tank crew seats in the inhabited compartment are equipped with adjustable seats: driver, tank commander and gunner. The seats can be adjusted to the marching and fighting positions, while the crew in the fighting position is located in the hull no higher than the level of the tower’s shoulder strap. In the seat position, the tank commander and the gunner are marching both in the hull and in the turret.
          1. wanderer_032
            wanderer_032 10 December 2013 21: 27 New
            +1
            I wrote that the work on its design began in the late 80s and early 90s (the fact that the French had a similar idea was not surprising, our work and their design bureau could go in parallel, our engineers aimed at improving the working conditions and protecting the crew, preserving the height of the car and the French made their tanks from scratch due to the experience of the wars in the Middle East and the Gulf (detonation of the BK in the T-72), the French made their tanks from scratch) the French did before because their country did not fall apart and there was no economic crisis; billions of francs.
            And our engineers worked almost on sheer enthusiasm, because the collapse of the USSR began and the ensuing "delights" of delay and non-payment of salaries, etc.
            I didn’t talk about the uninhabited tower, you just misunderstood me, I apologize for that.
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 22: 20 New
              +2
              Quote: wanderer_032
              I wrote that work on its design began in the late 80s and early 90s (

              You never know what you wrote - it’s too extensible. By the way, Leclerc, too, did not start developing in 94. And no sources mention the 80s, all saying 90, and most likely it's 93-95 years old.
              Quote: wanderer_032
              , our work and their design bureau could go in parallel, our engineers aimed to improve working conditions and protect the crew, maintaining the height of the machine and remove the ammunition from the hull in connection with the experience of wars in the Middle East and the Gulf

              And what kind of experience was gained in the Middle East where the T-72 was used sporadically? And the Storm is so generally 91 years old.
              Quote: wanderer_032
              ours and their design bureaus could go in parallel

              So these could go in parallel, but
              Quote: wanderer_032
              I do not exclude that Kharkiv residents "borrowed" it from them.
              double and even triple standards.
              Quote: wanderer_032
              billions of francs swollen in Leclerc.
              Do you think there is less swelling in Soviet tanks? At the same time, Leclerc is a tank of a new digital generation.


              Quote: wanderer_032
              I didn’t speak about the uninhabited tower, you just misunderstood me, I apologize for that.
              Rather, you spelled it wrong
              that by the way the campaign resulted in two deleted comments.
              1. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 10 December 2013 22: 50 New
                0
                As for the experience of wars, to whom it was supposed that those had information, and Chechnya affected (Grozny 94g.).
                That the people in the design bureau had a desire to save lives by creating a "black eagle", so there is nothing to blame them for.
                The government of the country, which should be more interested than the engineers did not allocate the necessary resources for this (probably in the struggle for power and on the top accounts of the elite they needed) committed another crime against their people.
                I repeat, both the design bureau and the plant worked almost without money.
                The fact that KKBTM was easier to obtain such materials in Omsk can be indicated by the fact that these plants and design bureaus worked at the same time in cooperation. And this time was the time of the release of the T-80U in Omsk and the T-80UD in Kharkov before the collapse of the Union.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 10 December 2013 23: 11 New
                  +1
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  As for the experience of wars, to whom it was supposed that those had information, and Chechnya affected (Grozny 94g.).

                  This is even more so with the 80th years does not correlate.
                  and more
                  Quote: Kars
                  most likely it is 93-95 years.

                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  That the people in the design bureau had a desire to save lives by creating a "black eagle", so there is nothing to blame them for.

                  Somewhere you saw the accusations?
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  A government that needs to be more interested than engineers

                  It allocated money for the T-90 and not small, to bring the T-72 to the level of T-80U
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  I repeat, both the design bureau and the factory worked almost without money
                  probably the Kharkov design bureaus simply filled up with money, and there they made cars based on the T-80UD better than the T-90, and still managed to sell it to a country that had not used Soviet weapons before.

                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  And the fact that KKBTM was easier to obtain such materials in Omsk can be indicated by the fact that these plants and design bureaus worked at one time in cooperation.

                  It was duck before the collapse of the USSR, and if you take your logic, then maybe Omsk got materials from Kharkov.
                  1. wanderer_032
                    wanderer_032 10 December 2013 23: 36 New
                    0
                    And where did HKBTM take it, is there an assumption?
                    Maybe it’s Petersburgers muddied everything so that the ends were harder to find?
                    They are Petersburgers, they could.
                    Still, the factories produced one car before the collapse, Kharkov with its engine only.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 10 December 2013 23: 53 New
                      +1
                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      And where did HKBTM take it, is there an assumption?

                      Itself invented.

                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      Maybe it’s Petersburgers muddied everything so that the ends were harder to find?

                      Well, they themselves could not stir up the MZ on the T-80, but used the tower from the T-64

                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      They are Petersburgers, they could.

                      All the same, you should learn the history of Soviet tank building.


                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      And where did HKBTM take it, is there an assumption?
                      To be serious, do you know what ammunition was manufactured for the Black Eagle? For separate charging or for which there simply wasn’t a unit in the USSR? The Yatagan / T-72-120 autoloader was specially designed for the NATO standard unitaries, and I’m sure that information on Leclerc in it was taken into account.

                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      Apparently, the St. Petersburg project should have been involved in the gas turbine engine, they probably had the main specialists on the engines
                      It turns out to be a project, but a finished sample? And there in the beginning of 90 it was very difficult, the land in Leningrad is very valuable.
                      1. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 11 December 2013 00: 10 New
                        0
                        Under a 125mm shot, he was loaded into a tubular cartridge with a charge, when a shot is fired, the gun becomes for a minute. negative angle, the cassette with the shot is pulled out of the conveyor, reloading is performed, the empty cassette is pulled into the conveyor, the gun is ready to fire.
                        Moreover, the cartridge is a container for storing shots, when equipping the conveyor, it is enough to remove from the ends of the lid.
                        And why could not the Petersburgers?
                        It could very well.
                        Or maybe Omsk, the benefit is also where. KB is still working.
                        And also on enthusiasm.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 00: 23 New
                        +1
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        Under a shot of 125mm,

                        Why not 140 mm?
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        And why could not the Petersburgers?
                        It could very well.

                        What is this conclusion based on?
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        Or maybe Omsk, the benefit is also where. KB is still working.

                        What is Omsk?

                        and you’ll learn the history of tank building
                      3. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 11 December 2013 00: 27 New
                        +1
                        Thanks, I already know the story well.
                        And not 140 because 125.
                        Good photo, I have one too.
                        I also know that in the 60s there were experiments with gas turbine engines on the basis of the T-64 in KHKTM, so what of this, then Peter (Leningrad) was engaged in the project.
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 00: 31 New
                        +1
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        Thanks, I already know the story well.

                        Does not look like it.
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        And not 140 because 125.

                        prove it.
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 00: 33 New
                        +1
                        _______________?
                      6. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 11 December 2013 00: 44 New
                        0
                        And you don’t need to prove which gun is in service, and they did it.
                        Which is not a clear photo however.
                        There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however.
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 01: 02 New
                        +1
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        And it’s not necessary to prove which gun is in service, and they did

                        So you can’t? Especially since it’s a promising tank, and Petersburgers made 152 mm tank guns)))
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        Which is not a clear photo however.

                        What do not know what is in the photo?
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however

                        Oh well? Remembered Is-7 277?))))
                      8. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 11 December 2013 01: 53 New
                        0
                        I mean about tank smoothbore.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 02: 00 New
                        +1
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        I mean about tank smoothbore.

                        Honestly, I don’t remember 130 smoothbore ones. And something tells me that the return of the smoothbore should not differ much from the rifled one. And 140 mm works reached the prototypes, despite the fact that they can be put into the same Yatagan with minimal alterations.
                      10. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 11 December 2013 02: 25 New
                        0
                        I came across material, maybe in "equipment and weapons", I don't remember exactly, but I remember what I read.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 11 December 2013 19: 08 New
                  +1
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  There were experiments with 130 guns, but things didn’t go beyond them. The return is strong, however.

                  Tank "Object 292", armed with a 152mm gun (based on the T-80)

                  http://rosinform.ru/2013/07/08/armata-istoriya-sozdaniya-russkogo-perspektivnogo
                  -tanka /
  • rolik2
    10 December 2013 21: 06 New
    -1
    Quote: wanderer_032
    probably started back in the late 80s

    Here is the same as SURE.

    Quote: wanderer_032
    the crew is located in the hull

    But it was not possible to create a normal SLA and a monitoring system.

    Since this model was not available to Ukrainian designers, the Yatagan tank was a purely Ukrainian development.

    And it was not a running model, but a finished product in 4 copies, and already in 2000.

    And which of ob.640 is used now with you ??? Crazy AZ ?? And this is after 16 years ??

    new gas turbine engine for 1500 hp

    I haven’t heard something about this.
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 December 2013 21: 09 New
      +1
      Quote: rolik2
      And which of ob.640 is used now with you ??? Crazy AZ ??

      Where is this crazy AZ used? On Tagil it is not, what is there with Armata is covered in darkness.
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 10 December 2013 21: 46 New
        0
        Hde contract?
        Time, such a garna machine.
        1. Kars
          Kars 10 December 2013 22: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: wanderer_032
          Hde contract?
          Time, such a garna machine.

          Well on Tagil, by the way, too.
          And with tanks now all over the world there is a strain. Europeans are selling Leopards, it’s hard with such a burden. The Englishmen generally closed the tank factory in Leeds.
          Quote: wanderer_032
          But Abrams is the crown of creation directly and everything is good with him,

          Why did you decide to remember Abrams? Nobody remembered him before you.
          Quote: wanderer_032
          And about hearing, you don’t need to
          What exactly?
          1. wanderer_032
            wanderer_032 10 December 2013 22: 54 New
            0
            Yes, Roller2 glowed something. A man came out under the Amer’s flag.
            And about hearing him too (the question was about the gas turbine engine).
            Therefore, he wrote. lol
            1. rolik2
              10 December 2013 23: 01 New
              0
              Quote: wanderer_032
              The man under the Amer’s flag spoke.

              That you spit on these flags, go out from different computers here it throws different flags.
              And so I'm local from Odessa laughing
            2. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 23: 06 New
              +1
              Quote: wanderer_032
              Yes, Roller2 glowed something. A man came out under the Amer’s flag.

              Conditioned reflex?
              Quote: wanderer_032
              And about hearing him too (the question was about the gas turbine engine).

              The tank is equipped with a new gas turbine engine with a capacity of more than 1500 hp.

              and where is he? about him something is heard only in such a plan, even without a name.
              1. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 10 December 2013 23: 25 New
                0
                About the reflex, not without it. laughing
                Apparently the St. Petersburg project should have been involved in the gas turbine engine; they probably had the main specialists on the engines.
                After all, the main design bureau still dealt with 80kami from scratch, and serial cars were also their brainchild up to 80U, and in Omsk there was a platform for running-in and testing (away from prying eyes), as well as additional production, consider the branch.
        2. builder
          builder 11 December 2013 00: 48 New
          0
          Quote: wanderer_032
          Hde contract?
          Time, such a garna machine.

          Actually not a very bad car. In my opinion, the best upgrade option for the T-72.
          1. builder
            builder 11 December 2013 01: 07 New
            0
            Quote: stroitel
            . In my opinion, the best option for upgrading the T-72.
            1. sapran
              sapran 11 December 2013 01: 13 New
              +1
              Undoubtedly, all the developments on Yatagan are quite easy to adapt to a number of chassis and artillery systems ...
              1. T-55-62
              2 M48-60
              3. T-64-72
              4. Leopard 1
              This is the difference in approach at KHKBTM and UVZ
              1. builder
                builder 11 December 2013 01: 21 New
                +1
                I understand the saying -Every sandpiper praises its swamp. But I don't understand the "sandpipers" scolding the swamp just because it is someone else's. wink
      2. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 10 December 2013 22: 21 New
        0
        In Tagil, they quickly noticed that in the new conditions, the Leningrad and Omsk plants with their machines are the first competitors in the market and hastened (not without the help of admin resources) to drown the idea of ​​gas turbine tanks (which, and this is not only my opinion, are more promising, t .k diesel almost exhausted the resource of modernization).
        I had the opportunity to ask live questions to the tankers who exploited them. I heard only positive comments about the 80s.
        Yes, they require higher qualifications (primarily mech. Water), but at the same time they have easier control and less load on the crew both on the march and in battle.
        I personally had occasion to see these cars on the go, at the tankodrome, and I’ll say, compared to the 72nd obstacle overcoming speed, there is no comparison. And also the noise of the work.
        Ob.640 was supposed to be a worthy replacement for 80k, but it is a pity that this did not happen.
    2. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 10 December 2013 21: 43 New
      +1
      But Abrams is the crown of creation directly and everything is good with him, grandmothers pulled from the budget to develop and bring to serial production a half dozen years, then they pumped out the same amount of money for modifications, and it burns like everyone else from RPG-7 from around the corner , in Iraq a lot of them got up from the sand in the air filters, on the mines he tears off the rinks with goose-bumpers at a time.
      Yes, this is a technique worth being proud of.
      And about hearing, you don’t need to.
    3. wanderer_032
      wanderer_032 10 December 2013 23: 08 New
      +1
      Speaking of the spiraling ideas of the French.
      If you think a little about what the situation was in the country and it smelled like collapse, then I think from our side it was no longer up to industrial espionage.
      Interests and problems were different.
      And intelligence worked for other purposes. By order of the party and government.
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 December 2013 23: 17 New
        +1
        Quote: wanderer_032
        Speaking of the spiraling ideas of the French.

        Quote: wanderer_032
        industrial espionage.

        Why industrial espionage? There is enough open information on Leclerc. Moreover, it was shown at exhibitions. And not like the Black Eagle under a mas grid and from 500 meters.

        By the way, in the photo something is difficult to notice that there is a new gas turbine engine
        1. wanderer_032
          wanderer_032 10 December 2013 23: 47 New
          +1
          Duc for that and wrapped up so that everything was hard to see.
          In the photo, by the way, a running layout that was shown even before the VTTV-97.
          In our region, even "black eagle" vodka was sold and it was 1995.
          1. Kars
            Kars 11 December 2013 00: 53 New
            +1
            Quote: wanderer_032
            In the photo, by the way, a running layout that was shown even before the VTTV-97.

            Give a photo from the exhibition what is the problem.

            Quote: wanderer_032
            we in the region even sold vodka "black eagle" and it was 1995.

            So that's where the name of the tank came from.
            Quote: wanderer_032
            Duc for that and wrapped up so that everything was hard to see.

            And Leclerc showed without capes on IDEX 93
        2. sapran
          sapran 11 December 2013 00: 38 New
          0
          To be honest, I'm a little shocked by this discussion
          Honestly, I do not see anything shameful in studying the history of world tank building (with the exception of a certain gap in the pattern of thinking)
          and specifically according to this sample that the photo is one of my first works to identify the "desi" ... Running layout yes, but no more. And the fact that the turret is a low-profile gun of 135 mm, while for some authors 152 mm this is all from a series of "Wishlist" Yes There were works under the decline of the USSR on the topic "Boxer" and all design bureaus worked in this direction ... this is normal, not normal, then it turned out.
          1. wanderer_032
            wanderer_032 11 December 2013 01: 12 New
            +1
            The black eagle was made on a seven-track chassis, at 80ki six.
            The body of the eagle is longer, but they could build at least one car.
            They just hacked the project and it was all over.
            1. Kars
              Kars 11 December 2013 01: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: wanderer_032
              The black eagle was made on a seven-track chassis, at 80ki six.

              And so? There was no new chassis, the old one was boiled, then business.
              Kharkov can also do these.
              Quote: wanderer_032
              They just hacked the project and it was all over.

              Say thanks to UVZ
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. sapran
              sapran 11 December 2013 01: 18 New
              +2
              Read to me it seems interesting ...
              http://forum.polismi.org/index.php?/topic/6270-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0
              %B8%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1
              %81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%
              B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA/
              1. Kars
                Kars 11 December 2013 01: 24 New
                +1
                Quote: sapran
                http://forum.polismi.

                Hassle of fii.
                1. sapran
                  sapran 11 December 2013 01: 27 New
                  0
                  We must always go from far away ... so as not to scare. Then you can advise BTVT.NAROD.RU and there a person will already go to the forums and the Hammer and the Boxer ...
              2. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 11 December 2013 01: 26 New
                0
                I can’t insert a photo, I don’t understand what happened before, in Yandex pictures there is a photo of the finished machine, it stands on the background of the workshop. You can see if there is a desire.
                1. sapran
                  sapran 11 December 2013 01: 30 New
                  0
                  Please try. And then, in fact, I did not see a photo of a living car except the running layout. And this is unforgivable for me repeat
                2. Kars
                  Kars 11 December 2013 01: 31 New
                  +1
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  cars, against the background of the workshop

                  This? And how much is its filling visible?
                3. sapran
                  sapran 11 December 2013 01: 32 New
                  0
                  Not Kars, I honestly expect another
                4. wanderer_032
                  wanderer_032 11 December 2013 01: 47 New
                  +1
                  Yes, but I found it larger there on Yandex, they did complete the conveyor, it seems, but there are no new sights and other equipment on the machine.
                  Therefore, I apologize for not being able to insert them, and also for being wrong.
                  This is a running layout, albeit with a high degree of readiness. repeat
                  Annoyingly. I bought it.
              3. builder
                builder 11 December 2013 01: 32 New
                0
                Quote: wanderer_032
                I can’t insert a photo, I don’t understand what happened before, in Yandex pictures there is a photo of the finished machine, it stands on the background of the workshop. You can see if there is a desire.

                about this one?
              4. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 11 December 2013 01: 51 New
                0
                Yes. Thank you, there are larger ones on Yandex. You can see who wants to.
              5. builder
                builder 11 December 2013 01: 57 New
                +1

                Black Eagle Tank
        3. wanderer_032
          wanderer_032 11 December 2013 03: 02 New
          0
          Informative link, I recommend reading to fans of armored vehicles.
          Sapran special thanks to you.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  • rolik2
    10 December 2013 21: 11 New
    0
    Quote: wanderer_032
    It is known about its ergonomics that the crew is located in the hull, and not in the tower


    ????????????
    Seats for crew members are located in the tank body below the level of the tower. Access to them is through the hatches of the commander and gunner in the hull of the tower and the hatch of the driver in the hull of the tank. Crew seats are equipped with adjustable seats having two positions: marching and combat. When transferring the seats to the combat position, the crew is below the level of the tower’s shoulder strap. In the stowed position, the gunner and tank commander are located in the hull and in the tower
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • uhjpysq1
    uhjpysq1 10 December 2013 11: 42 New
    +1
    In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.))))))) Even the Turks understood this. )) only does not reach maydaunov)
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 December 2013 12: 10 New
      +5
      Quote: uhjpysq1
      )))))))) even the Turks understood this

      It can be seen licking up, and show what kind of geopolitics you are?
      The Turkish Tender was announced in 2000)))) when it was 5 years before the Maidan)))) but you can’t read the article, it’s not fate
      1. uhjpysq1
        uhjpysq1 10 December 2013 12: 42 New
        -2
        ) they just then knew it)))))
        1. Kars
          Kars 10 December 2013 12: 47 New
          +2
          Quote: uhjpysq1
          )simply

          no it's just you)))))) fool
          1. uhjpysq1
            uhjpysq1 10 December 2013 12: 58 New
            0
            )on their own people are not judged)))))
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 13: 29 New
              +3
              Quote: uhjpysq1
              )on their own people are not judged)))))

              why judge by yourself when there are your comments?
              Quote: uhjpysq1
              In a country where they constantly squabble for power, something sensible to implement is practically hopeless.))))))) Even the Turks understood this.

              Especially regarding the 2000 tender.
  • cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 10 December 2013 11: 51 New
    +1
    Of course it’s very impressive, but in the light of the events with the T-72B3 it’s very interesting how ergonomics are thought out, otherwise the equipment can be excellent, but it will not work effectively. It is also interesting what kind of review is provided by surveillance systems, well, and other important trifles.
    1. Argon
      Argon 10 December 2013 13: 06 New
      +2
      Even without any light, this machine raises many questions: the first is the mass of the t-80ud 46t and the Yatagan 48t, despite the fact that the booked volume has grown significantly. Add a slightly increased power (and therefore weight) turret drive (stabilizer weight) The question is how much the weight of the armor / protective structures per unit of the booked volume has decreased in comparison with the original sample? the production of 120mm rounds, I don’t think that Turkey can afford it, let alone Ukraine. Third: how is the turret balancing carried out despite the fact that its mass changes significantly in operation (ammunition consumption)? At the same time, the effectiveness of protecting the crew from detonation factors of the ammunition the layout is very controversial.
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 December 2013 13: 26 New
        +2
        Quote: Argon
        not one manufacturer will give exact characteristics

        Why characteristics if there is physically ammunition? And a cooperation agreement with Switzerland.
        Quote: Argon
        I don’t think it can afford Turkey, and even less so Ukraine.

        They are 120 mm ammunition elementary sold.
        Quote: Argon
        and "Yatagana" 48 tons despite the fact that the booked volume has grown significantly.

        The volume increased only in the area of ​​the feed MOH.
      2. Prohor
        Prohor 10 December 2013 13: 27 New
        0
        1. 2 tons of armor is not enough to book a crazy box with AZ? And more volume has not grown anywhere.
        2. So after all, you can just buy NATO ammunition.
        3. 22 rounds in the AZ with BOPS - this is 400 kg, with OFS - 800 kilograms, not more, and at the other end of the tower - almost a 3-ton gun. There are probably no problems with balancing. And as for safety - riding on a grenade is much safer than inside.
      3. Kars
        Kars 10 December 2013 13: 30 New
        +3
        _________________
        1. Argon
          Argon 10 December 2013 17: 12 New
          +1
          I don’t comment on the ammunition due to the frivolity of the latter, about the reservation, the armor is not cardboard, there, at first glance, 1,2-1,5 cubic meters and 1,5 tons for such a volume is clearly not enough, add the weight of the inner armored wall, and the reserve for overall structural strength. With the balancing of the tower, the situation is as follows, on a de-energized T-80, an unprepared person turns the tower 3 turns, without visible effort (not counting a wet back), skill-training is required to turn the tower, if the machine is on an incline (here it all depends on the size of the latter). The heaviest, breech part of the gun with rolling / rolling action is located almost in the center of the tower. And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the "Yatagan" is 400 kg then 800 kg then 0 kg, but the fact that they are there, that is, they are not, while it is necessary to ensure stable characteristics of the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives, so that the tower does not turn arbitrarily in the direction "from the mountain", and all these notions require mass and reserves of power That's about security, my dear Prokhor wrote very coolly, indeed, in the event of a grenade explosion, the effect will be the same. Initially, such a layout is designed not to protect against detonation of the HE shell, but against propellant ignition, given that Western tank guns use unitary cartridges, you can say from the "behind-the-barrel shot" (the "Abrams" has no HE shells at all). If you calculate a tower of this size for the simultaneous detonation of 20-30 (yes at least 5) HE shells 120mm, with the provision of a directional retraction of the blast wave, and even provide local strength (ballistic protection) of such a design, then the rest of the layout (because it will no longer be a tank) we need to make of balsa in order to fit into 70 tons.
          1. sapran
            sapran 10 December 2013 17: 37 New
            0
            1. Abrams already has a HE shell.
            2. What type of tower on the T-80? (balanced or unbalanced) ... then repeat the train of your thoughts on the turns. (about three turns we leave on your conscience)
            3. if it doesn’t complicate, bring a photo or documentary evidence of the death of the crew when the tank was defeated in a niche (honestly, maybe I missed that to ensure survivability)
            4. Please decide for yourself with the concept of "Detonation 20-30 OF" I honestly doubt that you clearly understand what is happening and in what sequence.
            5. No, and in principle it is difficult to get a car that will proudly bear the title "invulnerable", but there is an opportunity to get a car with a set of measures where the chance of surviving the crew will be higher.
          2. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 10 December 2013 18: 22 New
            0
            Quote: Argon
            The heaviest, breech part of the gun with rolling / rolling action is located almost in the center of the tower. And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the Yatagan has 400kg or 800kg or 0kg, but that they are there. that is not, at the same time it is necessary to provide stable characteristics to the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives, so that the tower does not turn arbitrarily in the direction "from the mountain", and all these notions require mass and power reserves.

            The gun is balanced at the mount. That is, in front of the tower (almost on the shoulder strap + 2,5 tons). The most powerful tower reservation (cheekbones) is also located there. In general, there is no balance as current in the tower of the teshek. If not mistaken, the weight of the tower is 13-14 tons. The counterweight as an ammunition kit (800kg?) Makes the tower more balanced, but it does not change the overall picture much.
          3. Kars
            Kars 10 December 2013 18: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: Argon
            I do not comment on the ammunition due to the frivolity of the latter,

            What are you talking about? Do you not know that Ukraine has access to 120 mm NATO ammunition? What 120 mm gun, like 140 mm, was made in cooperation with Swiss companies?
            Quote: Argon
            the armor is not cardboard, there is at first glance 1,2-1,5 cubic meters and 1,5 tons for such a volume is clearly not enough,

            How do you interpret the volume of your reservation directly? Are you sure you can?
            Quote: Argon
            And the problem is not so much that at the other "end of the tower" the Yatagan has 400kg or 800kg or 0kg, but that they are not there, and it is necessary to ensure stable characteristics of the stabilizer, plus come up with brakes for manual drives so that the tower

            Are you aware that the sample was put up for tender? And you think that you are the smartest and when did the tank construct the designers did not think about it?
            Quote: Argon
            .Here about security, kind Prokhor wrote very cool, indeed in case of a grenade explosion the effect will be the same
            You misunderstood dear Prokhor.
            Quote: Argon
            a significantly similar arrangement is not designed to protect against detonation of HE shells, but from the ignition of a propellant, given that Western tank guns use unitary cartridges,

            Who told you such nonsense? Does Leclerc have no OFS? Or Japanese Type 90? At the same time, unitary ammunition with a metal sleeve is much safer.
            Quote: Argon
            If you can count a tower of a similar size for simultaneously detonating 20-30 (yes at least 5) HE shells 120mm

            There are 22 ammunition in the automated ammunition depot. Nobody canceled the physics of the explosion, the explosion is in the direction of least resistance. And the crew is more likely to survive the detonation of the ammunition in the stern down than in the carousel under the floor of the crew compartment.
  • Prohor
    Prohor 10 December 2013 13: 36 New
    +3
    The situation is hilarious - the Cossacks forge scimitars for Janissaries! laughing
    He would tell who is in the 17-18 centuries. in the Zaporizhzhya Sich!
    1. GastaClaus69
      GastaClaus69 10 December 2013 13: 46 New
      +3
      Have you heard of the Trans-Danish Sech?
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 10 December 2013 20: 46 New
      -3
      In in .... they would call the tank Janissaries))) To remind about the centuries-old history of "cooperation"
  • tank 34
    tank 34 10 December 2013 14: 18 New
    +2
    Judging by the characteristics in a first approximation, everything is not bad. However, like everyone else in reality, another question. T-90 T-84 ALL THIS IS THE RESULT OF SOVIET DEVELOPMENTS IN THE MIDDLE 70'S OF THE 20TH CENTURY
    1. sapran
      sapran 10 December 2013 14: 30 New
      +1
      And yes, no doubt and no at the same time. The concept has undergone changes, with both sides (UVZ and KHKBM) going in the same direction along parallel paths (periodically throwing jambs at each other) But this is not what was conceived under the USSR.
  • tchoni
    tchoni 10 December 2013 14: 44 New
    +5
    Guys, for your country to buy YOUR equipment, you must first give a loan to the buyer to buy your equipment and then at least ALL of the T-34 park located on the pedestals will be bought from YOU.
    The Jews gave a loan - bought them m 60 - shaggy year of release.
    Dalits were given - leopards are buying.
    And it’s good for sellers - they support the domestic manufacturer and clear the way for new equipment and it’s not bad for buyers - without investing a damn to get at least something. A loan. You can give in kind. There to provide an airdrome - Iraq or, let's say what kind of bomb Syria. Well, either to block the Straits or simply to NATO rightly yoke from the spot. - In general, there are options.
  • sapran
    sapran 10 December 2013 14: 51 New
    +2
    ..And Pan-Ataman has a gold reserve of e ?! Everything is correctly said by you, in fact, this is the integral part of the success of China in Africa, Russia in Algeria (it is possible that Peru will be crushed as well).
  • rolik2
    10 December 2013 19: 39 New
    -1
    Quote: svp67
    There is only a SMALL probability that the Malyshev plant will develop normally


    The tank building school in Russia has died, nothing dramatic has been proposed over the past 10 years, the lack of competition has completely degraded the design idea at UVZ.
    The scimitar was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT THEY ARE DIFFERENTLY DIFFERENT ???????
    1. sapran
      sapran 10 December 2013 19: 50 New
      -1
      They are very different respected ... one goes as a development of thought on the modernization of the existing park but in a new beautiful package, the second attempt is a universal offer to the taste of the customer. Their approach is a bit different. The topic "banana" was closed in the mid-90s as a half measure, but in Russia it was presented as a "breakthrough" (probably exactly what broke through). But "Armata" ... I will cry in 2015 if I correctly imagine what they are building ...
    2. Kars
      Kars 10 December 2013 19: 56 New
      +2
      Quote: rolik2
      The scimitar was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT THEY ARE DIFFERENTLY DIFFERENT ???????

      Yatanan is better if you discard an electronics which simply physically was not in 2000.
    3. nick-name
      nick-name 11 December 2013 11: 07 New
      -3
      Quote: rolik2
      The tank building school in Russia has died, nothing dramatic has been proposed over the past 10 years, the lack of competition has completely degraded the design idea at UVZ. Yatagan was created in 2000, Tagil in 2013 WHAT DOES THEY DIFFERENTLY ???????

      Enchanting, and most importantly illiterate.
  • Horde
    Horde 10 December 2013 21: 43 New
    -4
    that’s what Yatagan doesn’t like, it’s as if they were robbing him with an ax, and these pendants from the tower to the platform look ugly in general and the Ukrainians still think of defeating something. Is it really impossible to do it humanly?
    1. rolik2
      10 December 2013 22: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Horde
      and these hangings from the tower to the platform generally look ugly

      Hanging here too

      the main thing is not beautiful and glamorous, but functional.
      1. Horde
        Horde 11 December 2013 06: 18 New
        -2
        Quote: rolik2
        Hanging here too


        it’s not about these that on Merkava these ones look quite organically, but about those that are in front on the yatagage, one shield below, another above, the third sideways, no technical aesthetics ...
        1. rolik2
          11 December 2013 09: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: Horde
          but about those that are in front on the yatagaga, one shield is lower, the other is higher

          Same on T-72 Slingshot
          1. Horde
            Horde 11 December 2013 20: 18 New
            0
            Quote: rolik2
            Same on T-72 Slingshot

            Well, what do you like? this is a complete lack of taste ...
            1. Jake danzels
              Jake danzels 11 December 2013 20: 52 New
              0
              Yes, yes, yes, finally the sense of taste will be in BTT, we will paint the tanks at the biathlon in pink, the unloading is blue, the guns are blue, the tracks are green.

              Horde these "pendants" are functional and they just do not "hang", learn mate, then you will not talk about "sense of taste".

              Divorced .....(deleted by moderator) Earrings Zverevi
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 11 December 2013 23: 34 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Horde
                  from zhesh any arguments do not work, can you find such pendants in t90 either a tiger or a leopard?

                  Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.
                  The best Soviet tank
                  1. nick-name
                    nick-name 12 December 2013 12: 35 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.

                    Let's! Burn the uterus with napalm! laughing
                    Can you tell me why these rubber mugs hang? And then I can tell, if not in the know bully
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 12 December 2013 12: 38 New
                      +2
                      Quote: nick-name
                      And then I can tell, if not in the know

                      Why didn’t he immediately suggest?

                      And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A
                      1. nick-name
                        nick-name 12 December 2013 14: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why didn’t he immediately suggest?

                        I thought - what if a friend is in the know? repeat But no campaign laughing But do not be shy, ask, increase knowledge)))

                        Quote: Kars
                        And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A

                        Has the Moment glue been used again? laughing Or was the self-propelled kerosene tank capable of something unknown, which ordinary mortals like me are not aware of? belay Kindly share sacred knowledge!
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 14: 31 New
                        +1
                        Quote: nick-name
                        But do not be shy, ask, increase knowledge)))

                        So I ask
                        Quote: nick-name
                        Has the Moment glue been used again?

                        You said it so confidently that behind the words you can see your great experience in using glue not for its technical purpose?
                        Quote: nick-name
                        the self-propelled kerosene tank knew something unknown

                        What can I say T-90 threw off Russian tank building for 20 years, there is nothing to be done.
                      3. nick-name
                        nick-name 12 December 2013 15: 00 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        So I ask

                        These rubber mugs, an attempt to reduce the EPR of the tank, which, against the background of the rest, looks like an attempt to hide behind the FIGURE sheet.
                        Quote: Kars
                        behind the words you can see your great experience in using glue not for its technical purpose?

                        No, often his admirers come across laughing
                        Quote: Kars
                        What can I say T-90 threw off Russian tank building for 20 years, there is nothing to be done.

                        Amen! wassat
                        More specific, please, more specific! Or "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes true"? © Goebbels
                        And by the way, in the above photo, the rubber apron on the T-80U is necessary so that the dust on the MTO does not throw, because the turbine breaks from this repeat
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 15: 53 New
                        +1
                        Quote: nick-name
                        These rubber mugs, an attempt to reduce the EPR of the tank

                        They made fun)))) will there still be an attempt?
                        Quote: nick-name
                        No, often his admirers come across

                        oh well do not be shy, you will not hide your personal experience, especially after reducing the EPR)))
                        Quote: nick-name
                        And by the way, in the above photo, the rubber apron on the T-80U is necessary so that the dust on the MTO does not throw, because the turbine breaks from this

                        By the way, too, no, the T-80 and without aprons go and nothing. And the dust tower also interferes with the risin tower?
                      5. nick-name
                        nick-name 12 December 2013 16: 23 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        They made fun)))) will there still be an attempt?

                        I tried))) And now I'm waiting for the story of how these rubber bands cumulative shells beat off laughing

                        Quote: Kars
                        oh well do not be shy, you will not hide your personal experience, especially after reducing the EPR)))

                        Why does the word glue, and especially the glue "Moment", begin to give you such unhealthy excitement? what
                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, too, no, the T-80 and without aprons go and nothing.

                        Otozh! No wonder it was purged in TsAGI like an airplane! Do not forget about the air intake at the stern of the tower, and yes it drives))) the tank really without analogues laughing
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 17: 06 New
                        +1
                        Quote: nick-name
                        I tried))) And now I’m waiting for the story how these rubber bands deflect cumulative shells

                        On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.
                        Quote: nick-name
                        Why does the word glue, and especially the glue "Moment", begin to give you such unhealthy excitement?

                        But I do not mention him, unlike you first, so you constantly think about him and remember)))
                        Quote: nick-name
                        Otozh! No wonder it was purged in TsAGI like an airplane! Do not forget about the air intake at the stern of the tower, and yes it drives))) the tank really without analog

                        The air intake at the stern of the tower?
                        So what? It is also an additional protection.
                        The engine used a "cyclonic" method of cleaning the air from dust. Highly efficient combined direct-flow cyclone with a central conical grille (the most important element of the air cleaner) with an air cleaning efficiency of up to 98,5%. However, unfiltered dust particles still settle in the flow path. To remove them, when the tank is moving in especially difficult conditions, a procedure is provided for vibrating the blades and blowing the flow path with compressed air.
                        The air cleaner and radiator unit is mounted transverse to the tank body and is attached to the front support of the engine monoblock. The air for the cleaning system is drawn in through the mesh-covered blinds on the roof of the engine compartment. Cleaning and cooling fans are driven by the main engine.
                        The improvement of the GTD-1000T engine took place in stages in the direction of increasing its power by increasing the temperature of the gases without increasing the overall dimensions. At first the engine was boosted to 1100 hp. (GTD-1000ТФ) and installed on the tanks T-80Б, Т-80БВ and T-80У of the early release. In 1990, the production of the T-80Y tank began with a new version of the GTD-1250 engine with 1250 horsepower.When the question arose about additional measures to provide the engine with cleaner air, the most realistic option seemed to be a clean air intake device at the height of the tank tower.
                        the design was adopted for implementation, which is an oval, expanding at the bottom of the box, mounted on the tower using brackets. In the lower part of the box had a two-position drive sealing device, providing two positions of docking with entrance blinds. During normal operation, sealing was provided only with the help of a soft collar along the entire contour of the blinds. This docking did not impede the rotation of the tower and the production of cannon fire. And when overcoming water barriers, an additional seal was introduced into the work, providing sealing of the dock. With this device, the tank was able to overcome water obstacles up to 1,8 m deep.
                        The advantage of the T-80U is the availability of an auxiliary power unit GTA-18А, which allowed to significantly reduce the total fuel consumption for 1 operating hours of the tank systems ~ 60 l / h (the total operating time of the tank is - 50% in place and 50% in motion).
                      7. nick-name
                        nick-name 12 December 2013 17: 45 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.

                        So what? Half a meter of air is enough to disperse the godfather. jet? Armored Air - the hope of the Ukrainian tank industry? laughing

                        Quote: Kars
                        But I do not mention him, unlike you first

                        If people bears nonsense, there are two options, either, or high ... I can’t call a stranger a fool ... repeat

                        Quote: Kars
                        The air intake at the stern of the tower? And so? At the same time, it is also an additional protection.

                        And then there’s a whole flap of text in which they are trying to at least somehow ennoble the miserable single-stage air purification system ... which still does not cope with its main task.
                        Yes! Can I have an example of ammunition to protect against which this air intake will help? From a baby slingshot? laughing
                      8. sapran
                        sapran 12 December 2013 18: 12 New
                        0
                        While nonsense flow from YOU and it is sad.
                        Do you have any idea about the process of forming a cumulative jet? or is it all so sad?
                        I do not justify Kaprs in ego explanations on the T-80U, since there the designers had to compromise, as a result they got a very uneconomical machine that can be equated with a "barrel of kerosene". but I will emphasize once again that as the task was set, so it was completed ...
                      9. nick-name
                        nick-name 13 December 2013 09: 15 New
                        -1
                        Quote: sapran
                        While nonsense flow from YOU and it is sad.

                        Do not grieve your heart laughing
                        Quote: sapran
                        Do you have any idea about the process of forming a cumulative jet?

                        Imagine the formation process. So, let’s tell how half a meter of air will "kill" the godfather. stream, otherwise one merry kars is not enough laughing
                      10. sapran
                        sapran 13 December 2013 16: 31 New
                        0
                        they didn’t hold out a bit, but still I’ll try to convey some useful information to you ... if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative stream 1,7-2,3 times (the caliber of the bch also affects the dependence , funnel lining (material), funnel angle)
                        By putting material with different densities and atomic weights on the path of the cumulative jet, we additionally achieve a reduction in the energy of the jet and its defocusing into individual fragments.
                        so please do not confuse the classic cumulative jet with the "impact cannonball" variety
                        oki wink
                      11. nick-name
                        nick-name 13 December 2013 22: 00 New
                        0
                        Quote: sapran
                        if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative stream 1,7-2,3 times (here the caliber of the warhead, the funnel lining (material), the funnel angle also depend on the dependence)

                        Who told you such heresy ??? belay
                        Forget this nonsense like a nightmare
                        Quote: sapran
                        By placing material with different densities and atomic weights on the path of the cumulative jet

                        AND? How does air begin to be with different atomic weights? Or does a piece of rubber solve everything? what
                        Quote: sapran
                        so please do not confuse the classic cumulative jet with the "impact cannonball" variety

                        Since when did the impact core become a kind of cumulative jet ??? belay
                      12. sapran
                        sapran 14 December 2013 02: 04 New
                        0
                        Since you started to come up with new physics for the cumulative jet ... If it is not clear what I wrote to you, please describe what you know about these processes. I do not shame and ask a century live a century learn laughing
                      13. nick-name
                        nick-name 14 December 2013 08: 34 New
                        0
                        Quote: sapran
                        Since you started to invent new physics for a cumulative jet ...

                        Fear God! I didn’t invent anything! UYA and Kstruya are completely different things. UYA is essentially an armor-piercing shell
            2. Kars
              Kars 12 December 2013 18: 24 New
              +1
              Quote: nick-name
              So what? Half a meter of air is enough to disperse the godfather. jet?

              )))))))) throw glue urgently)))
              Quote: nick-name
              If people bears nonsense, there are two options, either, or stoned ... I can’t call a stranger a fool

              What they would call someone someone would try to prove that they themselves are smart and that you know)))
              Quote: nick-name
              And then a whole trash of text, in which they are trying to at least somehow ennoble the miserable single-stage air purification system ...

              )))) Just so miserable))
              Quote: nick-name
              . which still does not cope with its main task.

              Tank doesn’t drive? Do not want to read how T-80U showed himself at the Greek tender?
              Quote: nick-name
              Yes! Can I have an example of ammunition to protect against which this air intake will help?

              ))))) from the same as Reshetka)))
            3. Kars
              Kars 12 December 2013 22: 49 New
              +1
              ________________________
            4. nick-name
              nick-name 13 December 2013 09: 45 New
              -1
              laughing It was necessary to stick the stronghold with eggs laughing
              And then pallets for pallets are only installed on light armored vehicles laughing
            5. Kars
              Kars 13 December 2013 15: 19 New
              +1
              Quote: nick-name
              light armored vehicles

              )))))))))))))))
            6. nick-name
              nick-name 13 December 2013 16: 19 New
              0
              Quote: Kars
              )))))))))))))))

              Iiiii? It seems you could understand the irony in my post. Why even post these pictures? What do they prove?
            7. Kars
              Kars 13 December 2013 16: 38 New
              +1
              Quote: nick-name
              Iiiii? It seems you could understand the irony in my post

              in your post you can understand only their uselessness, and your low theoretical level.
            8. nick-name
              nick-name 14 December 2013 08: 36 New
              0
              Hand face fool
              So will you crap all for an unknown purpose to post?
            9. Kars
              Kars 14 December 2013 21: 54 New
              +1
              Quote: nick-name
              Hand face

              Better to face on the table and with overclocking,
              Quote: nick-name
              with an incomprehensible purpose to post?

              it's not my fault that you are so not smart that you don’t understand))
            10. sapran
              sapran 14 December 2013 22: 03 New
              +1
              Kars is very difficult to communicate with a person in different languages.
              1. Please nick-name explain what you mean by a cumulative stream
              2. Why (by what misconception) The screen as a means of passive protection is used on various BT objects on different continents.
              3. Describe cases when the screen is in favor when to the detriment.
              So far, in this way we will try to approach general concepts, and there maybe we will find a language of understanding.
            11. nick-name
              nick-name 15 December 2013 11: 15 New
              -1
              Quote: sapran
              . Please nick-name explain what you understand

              And then the whole list ...
              Am I hiring a tutor for you? No.
              At the moment, you, together with Kars, are posting some garbage with a smart look. Why I MUST (attention MUST !!) prove that "shit" is not tasty? And in response to me - "Have you tried?" AND?
          2. nick-name
            nick-name 15 December 2013 11: 11 New
            0
            In light of the last post, especially for especially "tight" ones - how would covering with rubber, pallets, egg grates, etc., help prevent this? fool
          3. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 12: 12 New
            +1
            Quote: nick-name
            from eggs, etc., would help prevent this?

            It would help, well understood by the tankers of the warring countries.
            Quote: nick-name
            especially for especially "tight"

            Well, even in such an epithet you’re flattering yourself.
          4. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 12: 12 New
            +1
            )))))))))))))))
          5. nick-name
            nick-name 15 December 2013 13: 34 New
            0
            This is such a facepalm ...
            Kars, write a letter to the HCMB, you have discovered a new in the protection of BTVT laughing

            PS I just can’t understand why, WHY do you post these pictures? Write in Russian - what is the meaning of your messages? What do you want to prove ???

            PSS notice, do not empty the canister laughing It’s clear to the Syrians, unlike the armored experts, that the air will not save fool
          6. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 13: 43 New
            +1
            Quote: nick-name
            This is such a facepalm ...
            Kars, write a letter to the HCMB, you have discovered a new in the protection of BTVT

            Failspam is your last name - and the photo shows artisanal protection against cumulative ammunition when factory protection is unavailable.
            Quote: nick-name
            PS I just can’t understand why, WHY do you post these pictures?

            Well, it's not my fault that you are hard-to-reach.
            Quote: nick-name
            PSS to notice, they are wrapping them around with empty cans. It’s clear to the Syrians, unlike the armored experts, that air will not save

            they encircle with anything, and there is also a fozduh. And anti-cumulative screens save from the COP
          7. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 13: 57 New
            +1
            )))))))))))))))
          8. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 13: 57 New
            +1
            ))))))))))))))))
          9. nick-name
            nick-name 15 December 2013 14: 34 New
            -1
            Your mother ... Kars, well, why put on display all your wretchedness?
            I do not argue that the CS detonated 100500 meters away from the tank is safe.
            But NAFIG to post the T-72 (which, in your opinion, themselves should be burned from hopelessness, so do not meet the standards of the Internet sofa)))) WITH GRILLES !!! speech is for rubber mugs laughing
            Kars, let's throw the vial (it’s even scary to remember about glue, then this will begin laughing ))), because it carries in the wrong direction
          10. Kars
            Kars 15 December 2013 14: 45 New
            +1
            Quote: nick-name
            I do not argue that the CS detonated 100500 meters away from the tank is safe.

            Have I ever talked about security?
            Quote: nick-name
            But NAFIG to post the T-72 (which, in your opinion, themselves should be burned from hopelessness, so do not meet the standards of the Internet sofa)))) WITH GRILLES !!! speech is for rubber mugs
            Well, you didn’t like the rubber mugs that were used during the war in Yugoslavia, though they were put almost everywhere, even on the T-34

            Quote: nick-name
            to be wretched?
            You don’t have to project yourself on me, clown.

            Quote: nick-name
            Kars, let's throw the vodka

            I don’t remember the last time I drank vodka, probably 6 or 7 years ago.

            And the clown re-read my main comment.
            Quote: Kars
            Quote: nick-name
            I tried))) And now I’m waiting for the story how these rubber bands deflect cumulative shells
            On the second attempt, they almost pleased. They just do not repel, but defend it, providing undermining of the cumulative warheads at a distance from the main reservation.
          11. nick-name
            nick-name 17 December 2013 09: 19 New
            -1
            Frankly, I’ve got a little bit of it from the stream of consciousness that you threw at me. Porridge in your head is noble. Well, it's time to put the stubborn again in his own kaki! laughing
          12. Kars
            Kars 17 December 2013 13: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: nick-name
            Well, it's time to put the stubborn again in his own kaki!

            Are you about yourself in the third person? And you can’t get out of them.
  • nick-name
    nick-name 13 December 2013 09: 35 New
    -3
    Quote: Kars
    )))))))) throw glue urgently)))

    Yes, I say! Share your sacred knowledge like godfather. a jet piercing half a meter of steel cannot penetrate gum and half a meter of air! Start, do not limit yourself in anything laughing
    Quote: Kars
    )))) Just so miserable))

    If the system does not cope with the functions assigned to it, is it outstanding? recourse
    Quote: Kars
    Tank doesn’t drive? Do not want to read how T-80U showed himself at the Greek tender?

    Rides, for this it was necessary to block a small barn at the stern of the tower. And in especially dusty conditions, put the OPVT pipes ... Beauty and nothing more! And in Greece, yes, I’ve excellently left - I’ve broken (((
    Quote: Kars
    ))))) from the same as Reshetka)))

    Well, thank you! In the morning so make fun laughing I would first find out how the gratings work, and in what percentage of cases they help, and then talk about gum and cumulative jets lol
  • Kars
    Kars 13 December 2013 13: 29 New
    +1
    Quote: nick-name
    Share your sacred knowledge like godfather. a jet piercing half a meter of steel cannot penetrate gum and half a meter of air! Start, do not limit yourself in anything

    You really stoned the glue))) on the basis of half a meter of air, the whole concept of anti-cumulative screens is strung.

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1
    %83%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%
    80% D0% B0% D0% BD
    When a cumulative ammunition hits the screen, it is blown up before meeting with the main armor of the tank, as a result of which the formed cumulative stream flies a considerable distance in the air before reaching the armor of the tank, and its disintegration occurs, as a result of which the penetration ability of the ammunition decreases sharply.

    Quote: nick-name
    If the system does not cope with the functions assigned to it, is it outstanding?
    Prove that she does not cope.

    Quote: nick-name
    Rides, for this it was necessary to fence a small barn at the stern of the tower

    Without it, it also rides, and much better than the T-90 without a barn)) which does not bother anyone, and is an additional protection.
    Quote: nick-name
    I would first find out how the gratings work, and in what percentage of cases they help,

    The percentage of the box will be better. And each percentage is an increase in the chances of survival)))
    Quote: nick-name
    And then pallets for pallets are only installed on light armored vehicles

    Well, people are fighting and trying to give themselves any additional chances)))
  • nick-name
    nick-name 13 December 2013 17: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    You really stoned glue))

    He’s more and more convinced that he has stepped on glue on your sore spot, but there will be a request - calm down, it’s not even funny anymore.
    Quote: Kars
    based on half a meter of air, the whole concept of anti-cumulative screens is strung.

    In fact, the concept of anti-cumulative screens is based on the fact that the barrier is deformed by a cumulative funnel, and there is no formation of cum. jets. Half a meter of air will not scatter anything and really will not reduce it.
    ps link to wiki does not work.
    Quote: Kars
    Prove that she does not cope.

    Why prove it? recourse In conditions of severe dust, it is necessary to install optvt pipes, for T-80U in general, additional. screwed the barn on the tower. What's this? Cope? winked
    Quote: Kars
    Without it, it also rides, and much better than the T-90 without a barn)) which does not bother anyone, and is an additional protection.

    Yeah ... I'm not funny anymore, so much hellish dope in one sentence. T-80 fuel reserve of 2,4 tons, range of 400 km. T-90 fuel reserve of 1,7 tons. Cruising range of 550 km. So eat fuel, he should fly, not ride. And by the way, this barn, coupled with the track-mounted tanks, significantly reduces the stock of transported spare parts. The extra 300 liters of fuel in the BO significantly add survivability to the T-80 laughing
    Quote: Kars
    The percentage of the box will be better. And each percentage is an increase in the chances of survival)))

    HAND FACE!!! see above. well read less wiki fool
    Quote: Kars
    Well, people are fighting and trying to give themselves any additional chances)))

    Enlighten the dear man, from which the palette of compressed sawdust will count, I am silent about the gum - the armored air is your campaign good
  • sapran
    sapran 13 December 2013 17: 18 New
    0
    God, what a bad case .. Are you probably inattentive? I gave you the answer above not on the basis of the wiki, but on the basis of field tests conducted at the KVTIU (KISV). The destruction of the cumulative warhead is one of the options for counteraction. Here you and the mechanical destruction of the funnel by means of a screen wire, a directed explosion (of damaging elements) KAZ.
    And here is the result of the action of the screen on the jet itself !!!!
  • nick-name
    nick-name 13 December 2013 22: 10 New
    -1
    Quote: sapran
    God what a bad case

    I cannot but agree, the case is really difficult. Suddenly it turned out that 0,5m. AIR is equivalent to a block of modern dynamic protection of the "relic" type
    Quote: sapran
    I gave you the answer above not on the basis of a wiki, but on the basis of field tests conducted at the KVTIU (KISV)

    Give at least a reference to this study, very interested. As I understand it, the research institute began to know about it. Howe know the roofing felts, they forgot the roofing felts, but they don’t want to give recommendations on increasing the armor resistance of tanks from the COP by 2 times belay
  • Kars
    Kars 13 December 2013 22: 16 New
    +2
    Quote: nick-name
    ... Suddenly it turned out that 0,5m. AIR is equivalent to a block of modern dynamic protection of the "relic" type


    Can you confirm this comparison with a quote? Or did you sniff glue and rave?
  • nick-name
    nick-name 14 December 2013 08: 25 New
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    or did you sniff glue and rave?

    You are really a parrot laughing Come up with something of your own, I’m saying I'm tired of it.

    Quote: Kars
    Can you confirm this comparison with a quote?

    I can
    Quote: sapran
    if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative jet 1,7-2,3 times

    and now let's look at the light of the Research Institute of Steel laughing here:
    http://www.niistali.ru/defence/armoureddefence?start=8
    I quote:The installation of integrated dynamic protection on tanks increases the cumulative resistance by 1,5 ... 1,8 times(here the truth is for contact 5, but nonetheless! Ukrainian armored air was more vigorous laughing
    But let's get back to our rams:
    Quote: Kars
    Well, the T-90 is not an indicator at all. This is some kind of misunderstanding.

    Quote: Kars
    And T-90 is a complete misunderstanding, under the guise of cheapening, they spent money on upgrading the T-72 to the level of T-80U, and they were able to surpass it not even in all respects only after 20 years in T-90A

    Please provide a detailed answer for each passage. Why a misunderstanding? Who reached out to the T-80U, in what parameters does the T-90 lag behind the T-80 and cannot catch up?
    Or is it so, voices in the head whispered? laughing
  • Kars
    Kars 14 December 2013 21: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: nick-name
    Come up with something of your own, I’m saying I'm tired of it.

    Your personal problems. And throw the glue.
    Quote: nick-name
    if the short circuit was blown up by half a meter and ideally (about 70 cm), then we weakened the cumulative jet 1,7-2,3 times
    and now let's look at the light of the Research Institute of Steel here:
    http://www.niistali.ru/defence/armoureddefence?start=8
    I quote: The installation of built-in dynamic protection on tanks increases the anti-cumulative resistance in 1,5 ... 1,8

    That is, do you identify attenuation with anti-cumulative resistance? Yes, and not Relic))) And by the way, how do you explain the presence of anti-cumulative ekrons on modern tanks?
    Quote: nick-name
    then what did reach the T-80U, in what parameters does the T-90 lag behind the T-80 and cannot catch up?

    And you take and compare the characteristics of the T-80U 1985 and T-90

    And the T-90 was pulled by replacing the OMS with the OMS from the T-80. That might have been known. And in fact, if you decide to open your eyes and read at least some monographs, you might even catch up to exceed the T-80U level only by T -90A with a new engine and a new folding tower.
    About Nii Steel)))

    Nevertheless, a solution exists and it was invented a long time ago - anti-cumulative screens. The properties of the screens as protection against cumulative ammunition are based on the fact that when a cumulative projectile hits this screen, it burst before meeting with the tank’s armor, as a result of which the cumulative jet formed before flying to the tank’s armor flew a considerable distance. When moving in the air, the jet decayed, as a result of which its penetration ability sharply decreased.


    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/defence.htm
    http://www.krivda.net/books/s._s._burov-konstrukciya_i_raschet_tankov_-__4.proti
    vokumulyativnaya_i_protivoatomnayazacshita_tanka_7
  • nick-name
    nick-name 15 December 2013 11: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And throw the glue.

    Ass durrrrak)))) laughing
    Quote: Kars
    That is, do you identify attenuation with anti-cumulative resistance?

    Yes (but you can shake the foundations of the universe laughing )))

    Quote: Kars
    And by the way, how do you explain the presence of anti-cumulative ekrons on modern tanks?

    So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and 160 centimeters of steel. (and Yes! undermining the COP earlier than the goal is important, but not half a meter!)
    Quote: Kars
    And you take and compare the characteristics of the T-80U 1985 and T-90

    Compare. Have not found. Waiting for at least something from your side. If so you insist, probably in the know something that the rest do not know good
    Quote: Kars
    And the T-90 was pulled by replacing the OMS with the OMS from the T-80. It might have known.

    MSA from the T-80 ??? For instance? laughing (I'm already silent that the phrase is initially worthy of an idiot)))
    Quote: Kars
    T-80U turned out only on the T-90A with a new engine and a new folding tower.

    I’m asking you to explain which post - WHAT did you surpass? Can I be more specific ????
    In response, only slurred howls fool
    Quote: Kars
    About Nii Steel)))

    For what I love SORROWS, because they are ridiculous by their stupidity laughing see above my answer.
    for the last picture there was already a conversation, well, and I would be ashamed to post such a thing stop
    PS When do you finally explain how the T-80 is superior to the T-90? How much can you pull the cat by the tail ??? negative
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 12: 18 New
    +1
    Quote: nick-name
    So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and

    And at what angle for this you need to shoot on the side screens? This type is almost parallel)))))
    Quote: nick-name
    I’m asking you to explain which post - WHAT did you surpass?

    T-90A armored new welded turret.
    Quote: nick-name
    for the last picture there was already a conversation, well, and I would be ashamed of such a post
    You’d better be ashamed of delirium under the glue of Nesi. But how to quote Nii Steel so you go ahead and with the song, and they poked so whimpering in the same NII Steel)))
    Quote: nick-name
    MSA from the T-80 ??? For instance? (I'm already silent that the phrase is initially worthy of an idiot)))
    Yes, I understand that the phrase is worthy of you, I understand)))
  • nick-name
    nick-name 15 December 2013 13: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    And at what angle for this you need to shoot on the side screens? This type is almost parallel)))))

    What does it have to do with it in parallel? Or perpendicular? The bottom line is different. Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice
    Quote: Kars
    T-90A armored new welded turret.

    Please, my dear, provide information about the T-72B's smaller armor protection relative to the T-80U
    Quote: Kars
    and the cone in the same research institute Steel poked so whimpered))

    Without even knowing what "koknos" is laughing and who poked me THIS somewhere, I’ll answer, just collect your will into a fist and formulate the question.
    If I answer with proofs, will you admit that you are just ""? laughing
    Quote: Kars
    Yes, I understand that the phrase is worthy of you, I understand))

    Kars, you are like a child laughing do you want to prove to me that at 187 and 195 you had to pull something somewhere? because they didn’t know how? fool
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 14: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: nick-name
    What does it have to do with it in parallel? Or perpendicular? The bottom line is different. Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice

    Well, you think about it - and re-create the trajectory.
    Quote: nick-name
    So it seems OBVIOUSLY that when fired from certain angles, several meters of air are obtained, and centimeters of 160 steel

    )))))))
    Quote: nick-name
    Namely, what can crush the lobeshnik tank, the protection of the gum just will not notice

    He will notice that he will definitely notice. And at the same time, the use of cumulative ammunition on the battlefield is not ruled out.
    Quote: nick-name
    Please, my dear, provide information about the T-72B's smaller armor protection relative to the T-80U
    ))) it is well known

    Quote: nick-name
    Without even knowing what "koknos" is

    like a nose
    Quote: nick-name
    If I answer with proofs, will you admit that you are just ""?

    Just try your proofs on the research institute of steel you yourself already ridiculed.
    Quote: nick-name
    do you want to prove to me that at 187 and 195 you had to pull something somewhere? because they didn’t know how?
    I don’t want to prove, but I PROVEN that the T-90 was replaced by the T-80U
  • Lesnik
    Lesnik 15 December 2013 14: 07 New
    +2
    Hello kars hi maybe enough to mock a guy? winked
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 14: 10 New
    +1
    Quote: Forestman
    maybe enough to mock a guy?

    And what to do? Then come to go to politics)))
    The expert explained why the "flying" T-80 tank is stronger than the modern T-90
    http://ria.ru/video/20110708/398994723.html#

    there are journalistic funny moments))
  • Lesnik
    Lesnik 15 December 2013 14: 13 New
    0
    Now I will go along, laugh laughing
  • Lesnik
    Lesnik 15 December 2013 14: 19 New
    0
    Honestly, I'm not a tanker, but the crew is still a pity - changing torsions is not a problem, unlike the spine hi
  • nick-name
    nick-name 15 December 2013 14: 36 New
    -1
    Come on! But from this I have only positive things, it’s so nice to put the stubborn in his own shit laughing
  • Lesnik
    Lesnik 15 December 2013 14: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: nick-name
    Come on! But from this I have only positive things, it’s so nice to put the stubborn in his own shit laughing


    You're wrong negative insults are not sports
  • Jake danzels
    Jake danzels 15 December 2013 20: 18 New
    +1
    while looking like a flawed person?
  • Kars
    Kars 11 December 2013 23: 46 New
    +1
    Quote: Horde
    those who learn world tank schools such dangling accessories can’t stand everything firmly

    Believe me that the segment covering the bottom of the stern leaf hangs on the torsion bar / loop.?
    1. Horde
      Horde 12 December 2013 07: 30 New
      0
      Quote: Kars
      Believe me that the segment covering the bottom of the stern leaf hangs on the torsion bar / loop.?


      I’m not even talking about the technical purpose of these rubber petals, since they probably set it for something, it’s about the IMPRESSION that they make the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and gives an UNFAVORABLE impression. It’s necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 12 December 2013 12: 10 New
        +2
        Quote: Horde
        PRINTING that they produce a TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and produces UNFAVORABLE

        This is just your personal fantasy.
        1. Horde
          Horde 12 December 2013 19: 26 New
          0
          Quote: Kars
          This is just your personal fantasy.


          I think not only my imagination, but also Turkish ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 12 December 2013 19: 47 New
          +1
          Quote: Horde
          I think not only my imagination, but also Turkish ...

          Do you think the Turks are making their Altai to make a favorable impression?
    2. Lesnik
      Lesnik 15 December 2013 14: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Horde

      The IMPRESSION that they produce the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and produces an UNFAVORABLE impression. It is necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...


      I neighing - my mood improved laughing need more such comments laughing
  • Jake danzels
    Jake danzels 12 December 2013 11: 59 New
    +2
    Quote: Horde

    I’m not even talking about the technical purpose of these rubber petals, since they probably set it for something, it’s about the IMPRESSION that they make the TANK with such things does not look WHOLE and gives an UNFAVORABLE impression. It’s necessary to remove or modify it so that nothing hangs ...

    Watch in motion, where do they hang out?
    BM Bulat - Mugs are the same size as on Slingshot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PIYcIXT5lo

    Scimitar -
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0tDvqF_Gg
  • ko88
    ko88 10 December 2013 22: 33 New
    +5
    The scimitar is one of the best tanks in the world, and there’s nothing to argue about and argue here, because the Kharkov school of tank building was the leading one in the USSR and one of the best in the world.
  • artgrad
    artgrad 11 December 2013 01: 35 New
    +2
    But it’s weak in such a way to announce a tender for the construction of an AvtoVAZ plant for the production of a great car! fellow
    1. Legioner
      Legioner 11 December 2013 03: 46 New
      +1
      So they are already being collected in some countries, maybe of course not 100%, but still.
  • Legioner
    Legioner 11 December 2013 03: 44 New
    0
    I don’t understand, and where is the new tank as many here want to present. The same tank "multipurpose" T-64, T-72, T-80 and developments from the times of the USSR, which successfully got the opportunity to be embodied in metal and later in production.
    This is what I really like. The Ukrainians, unlike the Russians, are trying, doing, trying and offering potential and non-potential buyers to offer products that may interest them even by going to various incredible tricks just to make money, and the Russians will not be given a kick "top" il from somewhere else will not even scratch.
    1. nick-name
      nick-name 11 December 2013 11: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: Legioner
      This is what I really like. The Ukrainians, unlike the Russians, are trying, doing, trying and offering potential and non-potential buyers to offer products that may interest them even by going to various incredible tricks just to make money, and the Russians will not be given a kick "top" il from somewhere else will not even scratch.

      laughing The number of sold Russian armored vehicles confirms your maxim 100% laughing
    2. svp67
      svp67 11 December 2013 11: 23 New
      0
      Quote: Legioner
      This is what I really like. Ukrainians, unlike Russians, try, do, try and offer potential and non-potential buyers
      To say such a thing, one must know the true state of affairs, and this is such - Ukraine was in the top ten countries selling armored vehicles, only because it SELLED, often at the price of scrap metal, what it inherited from the Soviet Army, but not limitless, and they are already ending ...
      And at the expense of DOING ... Alas, the "Kharkovites" offer almost NOTHING new, the majority, and the overwhelming majority - SOVIET WORKS and often, already previously embodied in metal in the same Kharkov, Leningrad, Omsk and Tagil. Look at the photos from the exhibitions of the 90s in Omsk, there you can see a lot of what the "Kharkovites" are now offering, but in your own performance ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 11 December 2013 13: 11 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        only by what SALE, often at the price of scrap metal

        Again at the price of scrap metal)))
        The number of sold BTTs of the Russian Federation leaves only at the expense of India, and the countries to which the debts were written off. At the same time, Russia does not offer anything new at all, the Soviet developments. Those modernizations that were shown at the last exhibition in Tagil cause smiles. Especially a model with an anti-aircraft machine gun reservation instead to make it remote.
        Quote: svp67
        Look at the photos from the exhibitions of the 90s in Omsk, there you can see a lot of what the "Kharkovites" are now offering, but in their own performance ...
        Let’s show you? It’s more likely that you are giving out what you live for as real.

        The line of equipment and upgrades offered by Kharkov is absolutely logical and designed to fulfill any customer wishes, in such difficult times when Europe sells its armored arsenals not expensively, or for rent and leasing.
        1. svp67
          svp67 11 December 2013 15: 55 New
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Again at the price of scrap metal)))

          You read the investigation of your own deputies on the fact of tank sales and there will simply be no questions ...
          At least about the cargo of the ship "Faina" ...
          Quote: Kars
          Moreover, the Russian Federation does not offer anything new at all, Soviet developments.

          Yes, I do not deny it, we live off the heritage of the Union, why are you embarrassed to admit it ... that you also live. In particular, your tank industry.
          1. Kars
            Kars 11 December 2013 16: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            You read the investigation of your own deputies on the fact of tank sales and there will simply be no questions ...
            At least about the cargo of the ship "Faina" ...

            so if you read, tell me how much they sold?
            Quote: svp67
            Yes, I do not deny it, we live off the heritage of the Union, why are you embarrassed to admit it

            I'm just not shy, you're trying to shame this type)))
            Quote: svp67
            offer almost NOTHING new, the majority, and the vast majority - SOVIET WORKS
            ))) even using capsa))

            Quote: svp67
            Alas, I will not wish them success in this matter. Although very sorry.
            So you do not blame me when I will speak the truth about UVZ))
            1. svp67
              svp67 11 December 2013 17: 15 New
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              I will speak the truth about UVZ)

              To tell the TRUTH, you must at least know where it is ... And so, you simply draw conclusions from your point of view, even without being a SPECIALIST of tank troops ... I cannot forbid you from speaking your point of view, only You take everything as normal, there is no one here who "to put in a corner" does not want to ... If you want to speak objectively - please, but start fantasizing again about "the next division of the Soviet legacy" - it is better to go to the site of alternatives ...
              1. Kars
                Kars 11 December 2013 17: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                that is to say the TRUTH, you must at least know where it is ... And so, you just make conclusions

                But what a priori conclusions can only be untrue?
                Quote: svp67
                without even being a SPECIALIST of tank troops

                is this a prerequisite? Remember, some Russian generals didn’t speak very well of UVZ products, and praised the Leopards. And the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation was not military))
                Quote: svp67
                and start fantasizing again about "the next division of the Soviet legacy" -
                Could you be more detailed about fantasies?

                Quote: svp67
                go to alternatives to the site go ...

                Why?
                1. svp67
                  svp67 12 December 2013 02: 26 New
                  0
                  Quote: Kars
                  But what a priori conclusions can only be untrue?
                  Unfortunately, the TRUTH happens to be different ...
                  Quote: Kars
                  is this a prerequisite?

                  Desirable, although certainly not obligatory.
                  Quote: Kars
                  I remember some Russian generals were not very flattering about UVZ products, and praised the Leopards. And the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation was not military))
                  With Leo, for the most part, there was a cunning move - an attempt to "shake" our production workers. Wait, so if they come to our tank biathlon, then there will be more ...
                  So now the minister is NOT MILITARY, and Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov, who was also a civilian, but it was a CLASS special, here, of course, a lot depends on the person and what goals he sets for himself ...
                  Quote: Kars
                  Could you be more detailed about fantasies?
                  And who demanded the "atamarins" just now?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 12 December 2013 12: 16 New
                    +1
                    Quote: svp67
                    Unfortunately, the TRUTH happens to everyone.

                    these are excuses for the losers.
                    Quote: svp67
                    Desirable, although certainly not obligatory.

                    then what is the question
                    Quote: svp67
                    With Leo, for the most part, there was a cunning move - an attempt to "shake" our production workers.

                    Yes, of course, to shake up the manufacturers when there was only one exclusive monopoly producer of UVZ, and in terms of price growth dynamics such a ... cunning .. the plan failed)) you still come up with something.
                    Quote: svp67
                    Wait, if they come to us on a biathlon tank, will there still be ...
                    And what will happen? Will there be a tender for the supply of tanks to the RF Armed Forces?

                    Quote: svp67
                    here, of course, a lot depends on the person and on what goals he sets for himself

                    your pretensions are removed again.

                    Quote: svp67
                    And who demanded the "atamarins" just now?
                    and that Ukraine did not have rights to them? Did not participate in the construction? Ukrainians were not among the crews?
              2. sapran
                sapran 12 December 2013 18: 19 New
                0
                In all honesty, I expected you to have a deeper analysis (you’ve probably gone through a tank school under the Union) But in reality, it’s both fresh and one-sided ...
            2. svp67
              svp67 11 December 2013 17: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              so if you read, tell me how much they sold?

              Officially - the price for one T72, depending on the modification and year of manufacture - from 150 to 300 thousand hryvnias ... If we divide by the mass of the tank of 40 tons, we get from 3 750 to 7 510 hryvnias per ton, or from 3,75 to 7,51 hryvnias per kilogram
              1. Kars
                Kars 11 December 2013 17: 26 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                Officially - the price for one T72, depending on the modification and year of manufacture - from 150 to 300 thousand hryvnia ...

                You can link please that the tanks that were transported to Fain were sold at this price.

                however, these figures may well reflect the real cost of tanks after depreciation of fixed assets.
        2. svp67
          svp67 11 December 2013 15: 56 New
          0
          Quote: Kars
          The line of equipment and modernizations offered by Kharkov is absolutely logical and designed to fulfill any customer wishes,
          Alas, I will not wish them success in this matter. Although very sorry.
      2. Legioner
        Legioner 11 December 2013 15: 10 New
        0
        I do not dispute that practically everything that Ukraine offers to the "market" is the experience of the USSR. BUT they are modernizing Soviet equipment and it does not matter at which plant it is produced: Omsk, Leningrad, Kharkov or Tagil (and there is a difference), they adapt their products: power plant, guns, ammunition and other products for different equipment and for any customer generally show flexibility in this matter, unlike us. We don't give a damn what was released during the Soviet Union and on the "tagil", then we modernize if not, then prop it up, the Ukrainians, on the contrary, take it and do it.
        1. svp67
          svp67 11 December 2013 16: 10 New
          0
          Quote: Legioner
          We don't give a damn about what was released under the USSR and on "tagil", then we modernize if not, then prop it up, the Ukrainians, on the contrary, take it and do it.
          You just need to understand the issue. We are trying to keep our markets, they are trying to capture them, for which we are ready to do anything, including modernizing and selling our equipment, we will not sell the equipment produced from them ... we do not need to advertise them.
          1. Kars
            Kars 11 December 2013 16: 16 New
            +2
            Quote: svp67
            We try to keep our markets

            What are your other markets?
            Quote: svp67
            including the modernization and sale of our equipment

            what else is your technique?
            Quote: svp67
            we will not sell the equipment produced by them ... we do not need to advertise them.

            Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?
            1. Legioner
              Legioner 11 December 2013 16: 30 New
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?
              Here I fundamentally disagree with you "Gorshkov" was sold back in the early 90s like "Varyag", which was then in all countries of the post. of the Soviet space everyone knows this and the dosikhpor is a "wound on which salt is poured."
              1. Kars
                Kars 11 December 2013 16: 36 New
                +2
                Quote: Legioner
                Here I fundamentally disagree with you "Gorshkov" was sold back in the near 90

                oh well, it’s also not a month since it was transferred to its Indians after many years of modernization.
                Quote: Legioner
                "Varangian"

                it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.
                Quote: Legioner
                "a wound on which salt is poured"

                the wounds are .. Kiev .. and ... Minsk .. sold to the Chinese by the Russian Federation.
                1. Legioner
                  Legioner 11 December 2013 17: 02 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  oh well, it’s also not a month since it was transferred to its Indians after many years of modernization.

                  Yes, yes, it was sold in the 90s as it does not seem likely
                  Quote: Kars
                  it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.
                  And that Ukraine does not have its own fleet?
                  Quote: Kars
                  the wounds are .. Kiev .. and ... Minsk .. sold to the Chinese by the Russian Federation.
                  + Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 11 December 2013 17: 10 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Legioner
                    Yes, yes, it was sold in the 90s as it does not seem likely

                    ))) no, no in 2004))))
                    Quote: Legioner
                    And that Ukraine does not have its own fleet?

                    Ukraine needs an aircraft carrier? In the black sea?
                    Quote: Legioner
                    + Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails

                    Is it that he was taken away somewhere and not cut off on the spot? Yes, and to ply Ulyanovsk at 20% readiness is somehow too much.
                    1. Legioner
                      Legioner 11 December 2013 17: 26 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Kars
                      Is it that he was taken away somewhere and not cut off on the spot? Yes, and to ply Ulyanovsk at 20% readiness is somehow too much.
                      do not forget about "Varyag"
                      Quote: Kars
                      Ukraine needs an aircraft carrier? In the black sea?
                      and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?
                      Quote: Kars
                      ))) no, no in 2004))))
                      I admit a mistake, but at least we would modernize it, and then sell it
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 17: 31 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        do not forget about "Varyag"

                        So you rent Ulyanovsk?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        + Ulyanovsk sold by Ukraine to "Asians" on nails

                        ??
                        but about Varyag --- haven't you seen?
                        Quote: Kars
                        "Varangian"
                        it was sold by Ukraine after the Russian Federation refused it.

                        ??
                        Quote: Legioner
                        and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?
                        So you all the same want to say that the Aircraft Carrier does not bypass the Fleet of Ukraine))))) and yes the Black Sea has a way out, but what tasks does Ukraine need to solve in the World Ocean as an aircraft carrier?))))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        I admit a mistake, but at least we would modernize it, and then sell it

                        Well, they sold it for 1 dollar. And far away, the Hindu divorce is complete. Do not be afraid they lose their face, they would have expressed everything they think about it))
                      2. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 18: 01 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you rent Ulyanovsk?
                        looking at you sold for 1 dollar)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        ??
                        it seems you yourself are in shock)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        and that the "Black Sea" has no outlet?
                        Could-complete and modernize as with other equipment left after the USSR
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, they sold it for 1 dollar. And far away, the Hindu divorce is complete. Do not be afraid they lose their face, they would have expressed everything they think about it))
                        you that are part of the elite of India)))
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 18: 28 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        looking at you sold for 1 dollar)))

                        Well, why on us? We are not ready to sell. So looking at ourselves and the sale of Kiev and Minsk)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        it seems you yourself are in shock)))
                        from your carelessness.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Could-complete and modernize as with other equipment left after the USSR

                        You’re a funny person))) you can see right away that you don’t understand anything and don’t know. Well, how much money you had to invest, and even though most of the subcontractors remained outside of Ukraine, while you still had to find customers, so then the carrier would release the Turks through the straits)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        you that are part of the elite of India)))

                        And what do you think only the elite can think))) Imagine immediately the Indians how it works out, they would order an aircraft carrier from the British, only about new money for the same, and not sawed)))
                      4. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 18: 44 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, why on us? We are not ready to sell. So looking at ourselves and the sale of Kiev and Minsk)))

                        this is at 80% readiness, when it remains only to install weapons, despite the fact that Ukraine was "focused" on the military-industrial complex
                        Quote: Kars
                        from your carelessness.
                        It is necessary to add immediately and not in half an hour
                        Quote: Kars
                        You’re a funny person))) you can see right away that you don’t understand anything and don’t know. Well, how much money you had to invest, and even though most of the subcontractors remained outside of Ukraine, while you still had to find customers, so then the carrier would release the Turks through the straits)))
                        Not only Ukraine was in economic, industrial and social decline and other countries after the collapse of the USSR. By the way, unlike Ukraine, Russia, as the legal successor of the USSR, had to pay off the debt of the USSR + civil wars in Chechnya + social, economic, industrial decline and the breakdown of numerous ties with "allies" in other countries.
                        As for the clients you had, it was the PRC, we could have agreed on the completion, and about the strait as well.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what do you think only the elite can think))) Imagine immediately the Indians how it works out, they would order an aircraft carrier from the British, only about new money for the same, and not sawed)))
                        The Americans offered the Indians an aircraft carrier, did not agree.
                        Quote: Kars
                        they would have ordered an aircraft carrier from the British, roughly for the same money only brand new, and not sawed)))
                        If yes koby)))
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 18: 53 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Legioner
                        this is at 80% readiness, when it remains only to install weapons, despite the fact that Ukraine was "focused" on the military-industrial complex

                        I see you continue errors? How about the sale date of Gorshkov? 67% and mainly the body, not the inner filling.
                        And the military-industrial complex of the USSR was very scattered among subcontractors. But it is clear that you were not even interested in the issue.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        It is necessary to add immediately and not in half an hour

                        You don’t have to lie, then be careful.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Not only Ukraine was in the economic, production

                        Only zhalitsa is not necessary.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Russia as the successor of the USSR was supposed to pay the debt of the USSR + civil war in Chechnya + social, economic, industrial decline

                        You got rights to debts to the USSR, state property abroad, the gold and diamond reserves of the USSR and Sberbank. Chechnya is your personal problem that you created for yourself.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        As for the clients, it was the PRC about respect, we could have agreed on the completion, and about the strait as well.

                        Well, yes, they didn’t let one empty building through the Bosphorus for almost a year, but you were the smartest)) and the Chinese are not as fools as Indians. This is not considering that it is very unlikely that Ukraine could have completed it, but that the RF would have cut off the supply of spare parts- - There is no doubt about this, it’s enough to recall the problems with the Pakistani tank contract.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The Americans offered the Indians an aircraft carrier, did not agree.

                        What? When? Where is the link?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        As you become Prime Minister of India, you can do what you want)))
                        I’ll vryatli them, but from this I can still think logically.
                      6. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 19: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        I see you continue errors? How about the sale date of Gorshkov? 67% and mainly the body, not the inner filling.
                        And the military-industrial complex of the USSR was very scattered among subcontractors. But it is clear that you were not even interested in the issue.
                        Only zhalitsa is not necessary. The construction of the Varyag was stopped at the beginning of 1992 with a 67,7 percent readiness, and the readiness of the aviation complex was about 80. Aerial lifts and elevators of the ammunition stock were already operating on temporary power supply, aerial finishers, an aviation fuel system, and an aircraft and helicopter transportation system were installed hangar. On the ship, the installation of the machine and boiler rooms was completed, and the state of the energy compartments made it possible to receive power, start cranking mechanisms and conduct mooring tests. The delivery of the ship of the Navy was planned in 1993.
                        Read more: http://vpk-news.ru/articles/13120
                        Quote: Kars
                        You got rights to debts to the USSR, state property abroad, the gold and diamond reserves of the USSR and Sberbank. Chechnya is your personal problem that you created for yourself.
                        Ukrainian politicians perfectly understood what they were doing when they signed the documents in "Belovezhskaya Pushcha". You got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, almost one year they didn’t let one empty building through the Bosphorus,
                        No need to complain
                        Quote: Kars
                        What? When? Where is the link?
                        http://vpk.name/news/14268_indiya_mozhet_poluchit_avianosec_ot_ssha_darom.html
                        Quote: Kars
                        I’ll vryatli them, but from this I can still think logically.
                        Whatever you yourself consider the envy of one way or another, this or that decision will not be from you, unless of course you become the prime minister or presidency of the country
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 19: 41 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        and the readiness of the aviation complex was about 80

                        So what? Was Kokai’s general readiness? And
                        Of course, 67% of readiness and after a year surrender))) believe more tales. The Chinese, with the help of Ukraine, have been building it for ten years)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Ukrainian politicians understood very well what they were doing when they signed the documents in "Belovezhskaya Pushcha".

                        It was not signed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, and then.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        .You, got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.

                        Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        No need to complain
                        And here are the facts.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        http://vpk.name/news/14268_indiya_mozhet_poluchit_avianosec_ot_ssha_darom.html

                        ))))))))))
                        In addition, on the eve of Gates’s visit to Delhi, the American media reported that the head of the Pentagon will send an Indian colleague a letter signed by US President George W. Bush

                        Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Whatever you yourself consider the envy of one way or another, this or that decision will not be from you, unless of course you become the prime minister or presidency of the country

                        Well, you're straight Kep evidence. Especially considering that we are talking about events that have already occurred.
                        The agreement signed on January 29, 2004 provided for the allocation of $ 974 million for the restoration and modernization of Admiral Gorshkov and $ 530 million for the supply of 16 MiG-29K fighters and

                        Have begun
                        finished
                        it spent about $ 2,3 billion, recall
                        and along the way without the wing.
                      8. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 20: 03 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        So what? Was Kokai’s general readiness? And
                        Of course, 67% of readiness and after a year surrender))) believe more tales. The Chinese, with the help of Ukraine, have been building it for ten years)))
                        Plans were under the USSR. China had neither experience nor technology.
                        Quote: Kars
                        with the help of Ukraine it was completed ten years)
                        )))
                        Quote: Kars
                        It was not signed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, and then.
                        The division of the Black Sea Fleet is a consequence of this agreement.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes, well, just tell me just because of kindness of heart we received, for everything it was paid.
                        Yes, well, Explain, Links, quotes?
                        Quote: Kars
                        And the RF campaign got more
                        reproaches that the Russian Federation is to blame for everything, even if the Russian Federation has nothing to do with it
                        Quote: Kars
                        Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?
                        and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, you're straight Kep evidence. Especially considering that we are talking about events that have already occurred.
                        If you do not understand then I wrote this for the future to you
                        Quote: Kars
                        Have begun
                        finished
                        And?
                        Quote: Kars
                        and along the way without the wing.
                        let it be so and so what?
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 20: 16 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Plans were under the USSR. China had neither experience nor technology.

                        In the USSR, they also often did not coincide with reality. And China had full-scale models helpfully sold to the Russian Federation, all the technical documentation and technologies were also there. And there, according to your words, to finish a trifle.
                        You can see, by the way, the timing of the buildings. Project 1143 may be able to conclude, but this is unlikely
                        Quote: Legioner
                        )))

                        Are you shocked
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The division of the Black Sea Fleet is a consequence of this agreement.
                        Yes, but its conditions were not discussed in Belovezhskaya Pushcha.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        reproaches that the Russian Federation is to blame for everything, even if the Russian Federation has nothing to do with it

                        Why is it to blame? Just the fact has received the most.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site.
                        goes confirm you are not able

                        Quote: Legioner
                        If you do not understand then I wrote this for the future to you
                        and now you’re not playing catch-up on Kep?

                        Quote: Legioner
                        And?

                        Quote: Legioner
                        let it be so and so what?

                        Natural divorce
                      10. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 20: 26 New
                        0
                        You, I am amazed, call me "Kep ...", and you are building a person out of yourself and who has access to official data and has a weighty word in all matters)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Natural divorce
                        I do not understand what is before this? is there a rollback?
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 20: 39 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You, amaze me, call me "Kep ...",

                        well, you’ve gone so many times at the same time on elementary questions - such as the date of Gorshkov’s sale.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        build yourself a man and having access to official data and for all questions has his weighty word)))

                        And can you give my quote about this? And show the logical chain of thoughts that led you to this conclusion?
                        And I'm right
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: Legioner
                        and you ? (google to help) by the way the message was on this site too. It turns out that you are not able to confirm


                        Quote: Legioner
                        I do not understand what is before this? is there a rollback?

                        and that it’s necessary to be directly involved in order to say something about a divorce. Atomic Charles de Gaulle cost 3.2 billion
                      12. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 20: 56 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        And I'm right
                        The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:
                        Quote: Kars
                        I can think anyway
                        neither links nor citations according to answers)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        and that it’s necessary to be directly involved in order to say something about a divorce. Atomic Charles de Gaulle cost 3.2 billion
                        I do not understand this reproach or a compliment?
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 20: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

                        Then what is the problem of showing them if darkness?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        neither links nor citations according to answers)))

                        How?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        I do not understand this reproach or a compliment?

                        Admiration for divorce.
                      14. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 21: 06 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Then what is the problem of showing them if darkness?
                        Actually, this is a question for you!
                        Quote: Kars
                        How?

                        Quote: Kars
                        China were full-scale samples helpfully sold to the Russian Federation

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Admiration for divorce.
                        THX.
                        even agree on this)
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 21: 12 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Actually, this is a question for you!

                        yah)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

                        Something about filming a movie in the history of Kitty Hawk is mentioned, but they forgot about a possible gift from India))))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        China were full-scale samples helpfully sold to the Russian Federation

                        Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.

                        Ukraine that did not participate in the economic life of the USSR? Did not contribute its share to the general budget and TD?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Admiration for divorce. THX.
                        even agree on this)

                        Where would you go))
                      16. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 21: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        yah)))
                        Are you surprised?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?
                        You have a computer, but that does not mean that you can create one!
                        Quote: Kars
                        Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?
                        Come on
                        Quote: Kars
                        Ukraine that did not participate in the economic life of the USSR? Did not contribute its share to the general budget and TD?
                        Figures, links, etc. where?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Where would you go))
                        there, too, yes, and you)))
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 21: 43 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Are you surprised?

                        your irrationality.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You have a computer, but that does not mean that you can create one!

                        Thank you for comparing me with China)) and they can do more than just a computer)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Come on

                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%
                        D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D
                        0% B5% D1% 80)
                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%
                        D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D
                        1% 80)
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Figures, links, etc. where?
                        It is well known
                        but please
                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0
                        %B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1
                        %86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8
                        F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0
                        Quote: Legioner
                        there, too, yes, and you)))
                        You flatter yourself.
                      18. The comment was deleted.
                      19. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 22: 17 New
                        0
                        [quote = Kars] Thank you for comparing me with China)) [/ quote] Your pomp is high)))
                        [quote = Kars] does not work
                      20. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 22: 23 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You have a high flatulence)))

                        I then. Your comparison.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        does not work

                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%
                        D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D
                        1% 80)

                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0
                        %B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1
                        %86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8
                        F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

                        Well I don’t know, it works for me
                        The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Prove

                        Something from you, at the suggestion of India, an aircraft carrier is not watching
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

                        ??
                      21. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 22: 29 New
                        +1
                        ____________________
                      22. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 22: 31 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        I then. Your comparison.
                        The main thing to the point!
                        Quote: Kars
                        The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).
                        I still don’t understand where she paid for everything.
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Quote: Legioner
                        .You, got a huge head start, both in the economy and in production and, moreover, without debts.
                        Well, tell me just because you received kindness from the heart, it was repaid for everything. And the campaign went to Russia more. But then they thought they would lie peacefully.
                        ??
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You have a high flatulence)))

                        I then. Your comparison.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        does not work

                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%

                        D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B5%D

                        1% 80)

                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0

                        %B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1

                        %86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8

                        F_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0

                        Well I don’t know, it works for me
                        The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Ukrainian SSR (Ukrainian. Ukrainian. Ukrainian Ryanian Socialist Republic, URSR) is one of the Union Republics of the Soviet Union (USSR). It was the second (after the RSFSR) economic component of the USSR in importance, significantly surpassing the rest of the republics in production, producing four times more products than the next most ranked republic. A quarter of all agricultural production of the USSR was grown on the fertile black soil of the Ukrainian SSR. [1] It was one of two non-sovereign members of the UN (the second - the BSSR).
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Prove

                        Something from you, at the suggestion of India, an aircraft carrier is not watching
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The logic is just tin, and the reinforced data is just darkness:

                        ??
                        Recently they were commissioned
                        Quote: Kars
                        ??
                        And this is the most amazing thing that not only you but others do not understand you
                      23. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 22: 42 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        The main thing to the point!

                        What's the point? Compare one person who can’t reproduce the computer himself, with an industrial country that launches satellites into space, builds atomic submarines))) you are a strange person.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        I still don’t understand where she paid for everything.

                        Well, if they didn’t understand, they’re unable to perceive information. But you can prove that the Ukrainian SSR was a subsidized republic

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Recently they were commissioned

                        What did Kitty Hawk put into operation?
                        Quote: Kars
                        In addition, on the eve of Gates’s visit to Delhi, the American media reported that the head of the Pentagon will send an Indian colleague a letter signed by US President George W. Bush
                        Media)))))) reported)) and you are sure that something was transmitted? Is there confirmation?

                        Quote: Legioner
                        And this is the most amazing thing that not only you but others do not understand you

                        ??? do you begin to rave? First Gorshkov of India was sold to 90, Ulyanovsk was taken to Asia, now you just go into the unconscious?
                      24. Legioner
                        Legioner 11 December 2013 23: 14 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars

                        What's the point? Compare one person who can’t reproduce the computer himself, with an industrial country that launches satellites into space, builds atomic submarines))) you are a strange person.
                        Complaining
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, if they didn’t understand, they’re unable to perceive information. But you can prove that the Ukrainian SSR was a subsidized republic
                        I won’t and will not, moreover, this is not so.
                        BUT we after the collapse of the USSR turned out to be ONE launching pad and the chances were that Ukraine and Russia were the same, but you remained in captivity of the 90s to regret your mentality and its hatching in politics remained in the 90s and blame dosihpor in all the sins of the Russian Federation BUT just not MYSELF!
                        Say what you like, but Indians bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier and cooperate with the Air Force and Navy
                        It is a pity to me that Ukraine remains in captivity of nonsense that "Russia will pass away and take everything away" very sorry, but this is your choice ...
                      25. Kars
                        Kars 11 December 2013 23: 39 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Complaining

                        No, I am horrified by your logic, or rather its absence.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        I won’t and will not, moreover, this is not so.

                        What's wrong?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        BUT we after the collapse of the USSR were on one launch pad and the chances were that Ukraine and Russia were the same,

                        They were not the same a priori. Let's start with the geographic dimensions (and, accordingly, minerals — which the people of all republics both explored and developed) and the population. And based on this, the Ukrainian economy even showed itself to be more resilient, the Russian Federation was falling into the abyss until prices jumped for oil.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Like it or not, Hindus bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier

                        Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        It's a pity that Ukraine remains in captivity of nonsense that "Russia will pass away and take everything away"

                        Well, it may not work, but they create problems and this is a fact.
                      26. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 13: 37 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        No, I am horrified by your logic, or rather its absence.
                        Your logic simply impresses with its inadequacy
                        Quote: Kars
                        What's wrong?
                        You can read, especially your comments
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.
                        What do you want before this? Ukraine hasn’t gotten enough money)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, it may not work, but they create problems and this is a fact.
                        ha ha ha, tell this to your americos friends.
                        Quote: Kars
                        they create problems and this is a fact
                        What evidence is there!?
                      27. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 13: 45 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Your logic simply impresses with its inadequacy

                        Give an example, I brought yours when you compared an individual with an industrial country, the second economy in the world.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You can read, especially your comments

                        I read yours, and I want specifics.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        What do you want before this? Ukraine hasn’t gotten enough money)))

                        Nothing to me, I voice the facts that complement your statements
                        Quote: Kars
                        Like it or not, Hindus bought from us both MIGs and Aircraft Carrier
                        Well, they got them divorced, at first they said one amount - they agreed, and started financing, and then they lifted up the price)) if they knew the full price, they would not immediately have taken the pot.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        ha ha ha, tell this to your americos friends.
                        they see it anyway. And they are the same friends as the Russian Federation

                        Quote: Legioner
                        What evidence is there!?
                        Why do you need to prove the obvious. If until now no one has found forbidden substances in Roshen's sweets except for the Russian Federation.
                      28. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 14: 08 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Give an example, I brought yours when a person was compared with an industrial country, the second economy in the world.
                        That's exactly what I mean when you yourself have compared with an industrial country, when it was not about you.
                        Quote: Kars
                        I read yours, and I want specifics.
                        Read comments. Again your logic.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Nothing to me, I voice the facts that complement your statements
                        Once again, I am writing to you that the aircraft carrier was sold and modernized, how, for what money, this is not your mind, Ukraine is only a plus.
                        Quote: Kars
                        they see it anyway. And they are the same friends as the Russian Federation
                        Officials, politicians of the Russian Federation, unlike others, do not fit into your affairs, do not speak on the squares, and do not call for disobedience and the overthrow of the legitimate authority.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why do you need to prove the obvious. If until now no one has found forbidden substances in Roshen's sweets except for the Russian Federation.
                        That is, all this is only your conclusion and only
                      29. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 14: 35 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        That's exactly what I mean when you yourself have compared with an industrial country, when it was not about you.

                        I? It’s you who reproached me that having a computer I can’t reproduce it, in the contest of full-scale models of aircraft-carrying cruisers sold to China.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Read comments. Again your logic.
                        But what concrete example did not result?

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Once again, I am writing to you that the aircraft carrier was sold and modernized, how, for what money, this is not your mind, Ukraine is only a plus.

                        Why is this a plus for Ukraine, but in fact the Indians were divorced as children.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        foreigners, politicians of the Russian Federation, unlike others, do not fit into your affairs, do not appear on the squares, and do not call for disobedience and the overthrow of the legitimate authority.

                        Because they are thrown stones at Ukraine, but this does not prevent them from speaking from far away in their own interests.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        That is, all this is only your conclusion and only
                        This is a fact - unless of course you bring that the inspecting services of Kazakhstan and Belarus also found that ONE allegedly found Onishchenko in Roshen products.
                      30. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 14: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        I? It’s you who reproached me that having a computer I can’t reproduce it, in the contest of full-scale models of aircraft-carrying cruisers sold to China.
                        Again, your logic, it was about an industrial country, and you projected everything on yourself)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        But what concrete example did not result?
                        Everything is written, read
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why is this a plus for Ukraine
                        Because it is Ukraine that produces some components for aviation
                        Quote: Kars
                        Indians bred as children.
                        Are you offended that they were divorced by the Russian Federation and not Ukraine? )))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Because in Ukraine they will throw stones at them
                        Utterance statement and only
                        Quote: Kars
                        but this does not prevent them from speaking from far in their own interest
                        Are you confused with the Americans who are so kicking about democracy around the world that they are dispersing their demonstrators with special means, but others if they did so are not democratic
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is a fact - unless of course you bring that the inspecting services of Kazakhstan and Belarus also found that ONE allegedly found Onishchenko in Roshen products.
                        So sell where they don’t find them, what's the problem?
                      31. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 15: 48 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        five is your logic, it was about an industrial country, and you projected everything on yourself)))

                        Then why this your comment? did i write it?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Quote: Kars
                        Cruiser aircraft carriers Kiev and Minsk sold to China with all the filling. Link nada?
                        LegionerYou have a computer but that doesn’t mean that you can create one!
                        excellent indicator of your illogicality.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Everything is written, read
                        therefore, you are not able to give a concrete example.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Are you offended that they were divorced by the Russian Federation and not Ukraine? )))

                        Ukraine wouldn’t be able to, it’s not so impudent, and it’s easier for it to accuse the claim than Russia.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Utterance statement and only

                        Well, let them come to the Maidan as an Ameican and a European. Maybe glazyeva))

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Are you confused with the Americans

                        I did not confuse anything - that the Russian Federation. that the United States is a storehouse of double-triple standards.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        So sell where they don’t find them, what's the problem?

                        This is not an answer to my words. So you could not reject the artificially created problems from the Russian Federation.
                      32. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 16: 05 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        excellent indicator of your illogicality.
                        You have a lack of not only logic but also rationality, I gave this example as a child so that you understand that the availability of technology, electronics does not yet say that a country that has this technology can reproduce the same technology and electronics. If you certainly understand that it is unlikely.
                        Quote: Kars
                        therefore, you are not able to give a concrete example.
                        I try not to write the same thing thrice
                        Quote: Kars
                        Ukraine wouldn’t be able to, it’s not so impudent, and it’s easier for it to accuse the claim than Russia.
                        Well, of course I couldn’t, I just would prolong it, I would take money, and then I would send it, or refer that the contract was read incorrectly and considered wrong.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, let them come to the Maidan as an Ameican and a European. Maybe glazyeva))
                        And why do they need your circus and booth? )))
                        Quote: Kars
                        I did not confuse anything - that the Russian Federation. that the United States is a storehouse of double-triple standards.
                        Well, of course, only Ukraine is righteous and most honest.
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is not an answer to my words. So you could not reject the artificially created problems from the Russian Federation.
                        There are rules and regulations, if you like it, go to another buyer. This is a market and not the Soviet Union.
                      33. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 16: 14 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        l as a child so that you understand that the availability of technology, electronics does not yet say that the country that possesses this

                        You))))) yes you haven’t grown up to the child’s campaign))) and your arguments are simply ridiculous. Features in relation to China.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You have a lack of not only logic but also rationality
                        Show an example
                        my quote

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Well, of course I couldn’t, I just extended it, I would have taken money, and then I sent it
                        Is there an example of such behavior? What would they not sue?

                        Quote: Legioner
                        And why do they need your circus and booth? )))

                        This is not an answer. Americans and Europeans need it, but the RFs do not need nu-nu-nu))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Well, of course, only Ukraine is righteous and most honest

                        Compared to the above
                        Quote: Legioner
                        There are rules and regulations, if you like it, go to another buyer. This is a market and not the Soviet Union.

                        Of course there is - but why even the countries participating in the CU did not find what the Russian Federation allegedly found, and which did not even show the results of the research))) So the Russian Federation does not have rules and regulations - there is only telephone right. They called, found, called and de. .mo will miss.
                      34. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 16: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        You))))) yes you haven’t grown up to the child’s campaign))) and your arguments are simply ridiculous. Features in relation to China
                        ha ha ha, I tell you about Thomas, you tell me about Yeryom.
                        Pretend yourself to be a knowledgeable person, but in fact "zero" are only unfounded and phantasmagoric statements.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Show an example
                        my quote
                        Again, I tell you that not every state is capable of producing highly technological products, even China is not able to do much, no matter how you worship China.
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is not an answer. Americans and Europeans need it, but the RFs do not need nu-nu-nu))
                        ha ha ha, you have Russophobia, and at least as far as not a single official or politician of the Russian Federation has come forward with different calls and slogans.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Compared to the above
                        I don’t doubt that you write like that, honestly even smiled)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Of course there is - but why even the countries participating in the CU did not find what the Russian Federation allegedly found, and which did not even show the results of the research))) So the Russian Federation does not have rules and regulations - there is only telephone right. They called, found, called and de. .mo will miss.
                        Each country of the CU has its own rules and regulations, though everything goes to a common standard. Like or dislike, follow those requirements that are required of you, if you do not want to comply, then go ...
                      35. Kars
                        Kars 12 December 2013 16: 50 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        I tell you about Thomas, you tell me about Yeryoma.

                        you already just rave. and upon the fact of your comments that you have given me, you are able to compare me with China. By the way, it’s not influenced by the fact that the Russian Federation sold two aircraft-carrying cruisers that came to China.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Make yourself a knowledgeable person, but in fact "zero" oh
                        it says not zero who sold the potter in the 90's to the Indians and towed Ulyanovsk to Asia. And he believes that Ukraine just needs an aircraft carrier as part of the Black Sea fleet)))


                        Quote: Legioner
                        again, I tell you that not every state is capable of producing highly technological products

                        and of course the aircraft-carrying cruiser is just a bunch of LESS analogs of high technology))) such that poor China would need to build Varyag with the help of specialists from Nikolaev, having access to the nodes of the same type of ships took more than 10 years, while according to you the Varangian was sold in such a high degree readiness that there was work for a year there (at least one more question arises - what is it that the Russians so stumbled upon an almost ready ship stopped financing)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        ha ha ha, you have Russophobia, and at least as far as not a single official or politician of the Russian Federation has come forward with different calls and slogans.
                        They already just got sick of speaking anywhere, it was not enough for us to perform.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        I don’t doubt that you write like that
                        Well, you do not doubt that they will answer the question 2 + 2))) even though you may doubt it))

                        Quote: Legioner
                        Each CU country has its own rules and regulations.
                        According to your stupid reasoning, I allow the norms of Kazakhstan and Belarus to poison our own population)))
                      36. Legioner
                        Legioner 12 December 2013 17: 13 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        you already just rave. and upon the fact of your comments that you have given me, you are able to compare me with China. By the way, it’s not influenced by the fact that the Russian Federation sold two aircraft-carrying cruisers that came to China.
                        are you out of your mind or logic, or whatever you have instead of brains, completely stopped working fool . Nobody personally compared you to China, think with your brains or what’s there before you write something.
                        Quote: Kars
                        it says not zero who sold the potter in the 90's to the Indians and towed Ulyanovsk to Asia. And he believes that Ukraine just needs an aircraft carrier as part of the Black Sea fleet)))
                        ha ha ha, not only did you compare yourself with the country, so you also distort.
                        Quote: Kars
                        and of course, an aircraft-carrying cruiser is just a bunch of LESS analogs of high technology))) such that poor China would complete the Varyag with the help of specialists from Nikolaev, having access to the nodes of the same type of ships took more than 10 years
                        Another confirmation of this is that China did not have the technology to build aircraft carriers. By the way, this is just a brilliant indicator of your logic, intelligence and quick wits.
                        Quote: Kars
                        They already just got sick of speaking anywhere, it was not enough for us to perform.
                        give examples, links, quotes! Or did you mean Americans and politicians in Europe?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, you do not doubt that they will answer the question 2 + 2))) even though you may doubt it))
                        exactly russophobe
                        Quote: Kars
                        According to your stupid reasoning, I allow the norms of Kazakhstan and Belarus to poison our own population)))
                        You know how to read, do you generally understand what are norms and rules, why are they needed?
                      37. Kars
                        Kars 15 December 2013 16: 20 New
                        +1
                        ))))))))))) advertisement miracle)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Yes, please, the whole epic with "gas" is a confirmation

                        What confirmation? Bring a court decision?
                        Quote: Legioner
                        More evidence of this is that China did not have technology for the construction of aircraft carriers

                        Gorshkov’s RF for ten years (by the way, you sold it in the 90s more) modernized))))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        exactly russophobe
                        de bilo fob
                        Quote: Legioner
                        You know how to read, do you generally understand what are norms and rules, why are they needed?

                        You))) If the Russian Federation found substance X in sweets (which is poisonous, etc.) then by what standards did Kazakhstan not find this substance X (let us go to meet your nonsense which is not considered poisonous in Kazakhstan)))))
                      38. Legioner
                        Legioner 15 December 2013 21: 14 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        What confirmation? Bring a court decision?
                        Ha ha ha, but all the whining of Ukraine about the fact that gas is expensive to sell, and the fact that you do not drag it along the quiet?
                        Quote: Kars
                        de bilo fob
                        You see, you yourself admitted that and who you are.
                        Quote: Kars
                        You))) If the Russian Federation found substance X in sweets (which is poisonous, etc.) then by what standards did Kazakhstan not find this substance X (let us go to meet your nonsense which is not considered poisonous in Kazakhstan)))))

                        And whether the chief sanitary doctor or whoever decided there to let the products go to Kazakhstan, Russia should do the same. Kazakhs have their own rules and regulations.
                      39. Kars
                        Kars 15 December 2013 21: 21 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Ha ha ha, but all the whining of Ukraine about the fact that gas is expensive to sell, and the fact that you do not drag it along the quiet?

                        and you caught? Yes, and what?
                        к
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Well, of course I couldn’t, I just extended it, I would have taken money, and then I sent it

                        Quote: Legioner
                        You see, you yourself admitted that and who you are.
                        and again I repeat - moron. but you don’t understand what this means. You only have a conditioned reflex that ejects from your bowels - Russophobe)))

                        Quote: Legioner
                        And whether the chief sanitary doctor or whoever decided there to let the products go to Kazakhstan, Russia should do the same. Kazakhs have their own rules and regulations.
                        Yes, you definitely fit my phobia.

                        RF - found benzopyrene
                        Kazakhstan did not find benzopyrene. The Russian Federation refused to confirm with evidence that they found benzopyrene. Moreover, the norms here)))
                      40. Legioner
                        Legioner 15 December 2013 21: 40 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        and you caught? Yes, and what?
                        к

                        No, well, just like a Russophobe, fixated, believing that only he is right and no one else except him.
                        Quote: Kars
                        RF - found benzopyrene
                        Kazakhstan did not find benzopyrene. The Russian Federation refused to confirm with evidence that they found benzopyrene. Moreover, the norms here)))
                        And you prove that he is not there, or you think that if the Kazakhs did not find it, then surely no one will find it.
                      41. Kars
                        Kars 15 December 2013 22: 06 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        No, well, just like a Russophobe, fixated, believing that only he is right and no one else except him.

                        Cool answer to the fact that they didn’t catch it))) And I will repeat the moron. And you will get the object of my phobia.
                        Quote: Legioner
                        And you prove that he is not there, or you think that if the Kazakhs did not find it, then surely no one will find it.

                        Now you doubt the hardware base of Kazakhstan? And I don’t have to do anything. The Russian Federation said on the lips of Onishchenko, so let it present. They don’t want to.))) Belarus also didn’t find it. No one else found it except the Russian Federation))
                      42. Legioner
                        Legioner 15 December 2013 22: 26 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        And here the norms

                        Quote: Kars
                        Now do you doubt the hardware base of Kazakhstan? And I don’t have to prove anything. The Russian Federation said on the lips of Onishchenko, but it does. They don’t want to.))) Belarus also didn’t find it. No one else found it except the Russian Federation)
                        Only stupid people like you can say that. If you don’t understand the stupidity of what, why the hell should we carry products that do not meet the norms and rules of our country. You can’t prove that the product complies with the applicable standards and rules, go sell to those countries where it complies. So you are not only Russophobe, but also afraid of yourself.
                      43. Kars
                        Kars 15 December 2013 22: 30 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Legioner
                        again I’m writing to you, why the hell are we supposed to carry products that do not meet the standards and rules of the country where these products are busy. You can not prove that the product meets the standards



                        Well, you and the clown. Apparently I took you for the gills)) Onishchenko didn’t say anything about the rules. He clearly said that they found the gas chains. And EVERYTHING. Kazakhstan didn’t find, Belarus didn’t find - the Russian Federation does not show actual evidence of the gas line)) and you here about the norms the clown is crucified)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        but also afraid of yourself.
                        You can listen to on the basis of what my statements this conclusion was made?)))
                      44. Legioner
                        Legioner 15 December 2013 22: 39 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        He clearly said that they had found gasoline. And EVERYTHING. Kazakhstan did not find, Belarus did not find - the Russian Federation does not present actual evidence of the presence of gasoline
                        Ha ha ha, here you are stubborn, as you read the mantra: Kazakhstan and Belarus, and most importantly, ONE SAID! HAHAHA)))
                      45. Kars
                        Kars 15 December 2013 22: 53 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Legioner
                        and ha ha, here you are stubborn, as you read the mantra: Kazakhstan and Belarus

                        And what should I say? Kazakhstan and Belarus are members of the CU and they did not confirm the suit from the Russian Federation.

                        Quote: Legioner
                        ONE SAID! HAHAHA)))


                        "The requirements for quality and safety have been violated. There are reasons to speak of systemic violations of the legislation on consumer protection in force in our country," the Russian official said.

                        "Benzopyrene was found in Roshen milk chocolate. This is a sign of serious problems associated with ensuring the safety of this type of product," he said.

                        And what did not say?
                      46. Legioner
                        Legioner 15 December 2013 23: 03 New
                        -2
                        Can you read? Gennady Onishchenko: "Quality requirements violated and security. There is reason to talk about systemic violations of the laws on consumer protection in force in our country. ”

                        Read more: http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/636302#ixzz2nZUrY0ba
                        That Kazakhstan and Belarus are part of the CU, ha ha ha also revealed America to me :))) And, the fact that general norms and rules are still being created and introduced is of course not familiar to you! :)))
                      47. Kars
                        Kars 16 December 2013 13: 28 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        are you eating Gennady Onishchenko: “The requirements for quality and safety have been violated. E

                        Well, brakes. Of course they are broken if Benzopyrene is found in the product)) it should not be there))) But nobody else found Onishchenko except him.

                        and when they sent an inspection to Roshen factories, it included representatives of competing RF plants. We went to see how normal plants work with modern equipment))))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        , then that I am still creating general rules and regulations

                        And how can this affect the presence of benzopyrene? Is it either there or not)) Or isn’t it currently determined by the rules in Kazakhstan and Belarus?


                        Well, then the onischenka had to invent fairy tales))
                      48. Legioner
                        Legioner 17 December 2013 13: 14 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Roshen factories included representatives of competing Russian plants
                        ha ha ha, you're talking about industrial espionage in the URAN factories. Rosmeshil :))) Ha ha ha laughing laughing laughing , be indignant, read the "mantra" and further. You explain, but there is ZERO laughing laughing laughing
                      49. Kars
                        Kars 17 December 2013 14: 00 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Legioner
                        industrial espionage in the URAN factories.

                        Not that they are on an excursion)))
                        Quote: Legioner
                        Explain to you and the interpretation of ZERO
                        What do you explain to the clown? What can benzopyrene only personally determine onishchenko?
                      50. Legioner
                        Legioner 18 December 2013 20: 46 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        benzopyrene can only personally determine onishchenko
                        ear ha ha laughing you’re really a clown, ha ha ha laughing laughing laughing
                      51. Kars
                        Kars 18 December 2013 20: 49 New
                        +1
                        What is an informative answer. So, all the same, only Onishchenko can find pyrene foam? And the veterinary services of Belarus and Kazakhstan, for the lack of Onishchenko, can find it in the tested samples?
  • Legioner
    Legioner 12 December 2013 16: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Legioner
    Is there an example of such behavior? What would they not sue?
    Yes, please, the whole epic with the "gas" confirmation of this.
  • svp67
    svp67 12 December 2013 02: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Oh well))) Admiral Gorshkov sold the vet?

    Do you consider him yours? File a complaint to the Hague court.
    Quote: Kars
    What are your other markets?

    Those that we got from the USSR and those that we managed to capture after ...
    Quote: Kars
    what else is your technique?

    Ours - read produced in the factories of the USSR and remained on the territory of Russia, after its collapse, as well as produced in the factories of Russia.
    1. Kars
      Kars 12 December 2013 12: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      Do you consider him yours? File a complaint to the Hague court

      Well, you think the T-64 that the Russian Federation does not want to sell Ukrainian, and the pots were built in Nikolaev.

      Quote: svp67
      Those that we got from the USSR and those that were captured after ..

      And why are they yours? Ukraine was also part of the USSR, so lay claim to YOURS)))
      Quote: svp67
      Our - read produced at the factories of the USSR and remaining in Russia

      Then why do you consider the similar equipment remaining in the territory of Ukraine to be yours?
      Quote: svp67
      including the modernization and sale of our equipment
      1. nick-name
        nick-name 12 December 2013 16: 33 New
        0
        Quote: Kars
        Well, you think T-64 which the Russian Federation does not want to sell Ukrainian

        God be with you! Nobody wants to buy them)))
        1. Kars
          Kars 12 December 2013 17: 09 New
          +1
          Quote: nick-name
          God be with you! Nobody wants to buy them)))

          What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment, and their level is wooden T-72 specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.
          1. nick-name
            nick-name 13 December 2013 09: 58 New
            -1
            Quote: Kars
            What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment

            Hmmm .... you drive me into a stupor, which means T-80UD for Pakistan, and BM "Oplot" for Thailand - wooden and
            Quote: Kars
            specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.

            belay
            Such a revelation was not expected at all. laughing
            1. sapran
              sapran 13 December 2013 16: 42 New
              0
              Have you seen those "bearded men" from Pakistan?
              I "talked" with them for six months
              1. only veterans
              2. In total, turn inside out to deal with an issue that is not clear to them.
              3. They are very worried about the place and their position in society and do not allow exemptions in the performance of routine work and combat training.
              The list is more than long ...
            2. Kars
              Kars 13 December 2013 16: 55 New
              +1
              ________________
          2. Kars
            Kars 13 December 2013 16: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: nick-name
            ... You drive me into a stupor, which means T-80UD for Pakistan, and BM "Oplot" for Thailand - wooden and

            You look at what technology the Pakistanis and the Thai exploited before)))
            Quote: nick-name
            Such a revelation was not expected at all.

            This is written in plain text in the historiography of the T-72.
          3. nick-name
            nick-name 14 December 2013 10: 02 New
            -1
            Quote: Kars
            You look at what technology the Pakistanis and the Thai exploited before)))

            What difference does it make! After all, there is an expert opinion:

            Quote: Kars
            What to do if developing countries do not cope with the maintenance of high-tech equipment, and their level is wooden T-72 specially simplified so that they could be served by low-skilled crews.


            But neither Thailand nor Pakistanis need a T-64. Therefore, BM Oplot and T-80UD are low-tech equipment, because they can cope with their maintenance laughing

            Here is even an opinion:

            Quote: sapran
            Have you seen those "bearded men" from Pakistan? I "talked" with them for six months 1. only veterans 2. Turn everything inside out to deal with an unclear question to them. They are very worried about their place and position in society and do not allow indulgences in the performance of routine maintenance and combat training.


            But the T-64 can’t serve anyway laughing
          4. sapran
            sapran 14 December 2013 16: 58 New
            0
            Sorry, but I am waiting for you to explain the physics of the cumulative jet.
            And then somehow it is necessary to explain the error using screens on armored vehicles for 70 years. Research institutes I began to respect yes, but the tests were carried out here on the spot, shooting on a high-speed camera, everything was fixed that you didn’t fantasize about the vigorous Ukrainian air there. If you are just clowning or by profession you should be so sorry then for the question asked.
          5. nick-name
            nick-name 15 December 2013 14: 09 New
            0
            Let's all in one branch, everything seemed to answer there.
        2. Kars
          Kars 14 December 2013 21: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: nick-name
          What difference does it make! After all, there is an expert opinion:

          Quote: nick-name
          if developing countries

          Well, Thailand and Pakistan have an army that is not in the last places on the list.
          Quote: nick-name
          But neither Thailand nor Pakistanis need a T-64. Therefore, BM Oplot and T-80UD are low-tech equipment, because they can cope with their maintenance

          What a dumb logic)) T-84 is better than T-64 therefore Pakistan bought the best.
          Quote: nick-name
          And I still can’t serve the T-64

          How did you determine this? They did not buy them, Pakistan bought a better tank and all things.

          Pakistan 12th place
          thailand -20 place
          http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp
        3. nick-name
          nick-name 15 December 2013 11: 53 New
          0
          Quote: Kars
          What a dumb logic)) T-84 is better than T-64 therefore Pakistan bought the best.

          T-64 is "better" than T-72, so Ukraine is massively selling out T-72, and T-64 for melting laughing
          Quote: Kars
          How did you define this?

          The long line of customers lined up for the T-64 laughing
          Well, according to the latest desires of Ukraine, cut the T-64 into scrap metal. (Russia has implemented this a long time ago))) laughing
          Quote: Kars
          What a dumb logic
          laughing
        4. Kars
          Kars 15 December 2013 12: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: nick-name
          T-64 is "better" than T-72, so Ukraine is massively selling out T-72, and T-64 for melting

          Because the T-72 is bought by developing countries of the third world)))
          Quote: nick-name
          The long line of customers lined up for the T-64

          Do you see a big queue behind Leclerc and Challenger 2? And the T-90 of the Russian Federation sells only to countries to which it has written off debts, or it may exert political pressure.
          Quote: nick-name
          Well, according to the latest desires of Ukraine, cut the T-64 into scrap metal
          Where is the T-64 cut in Ukraine? It was NATO’s desire and there are no official decisions.
        5. nick-name
          nick-name 15 December 2013 14: 01 New
          0
          Quote: Kars
          Because the T-72 is bought by developing countries of the third world)))

          Nobody buys the T-64, because no one needs them
          laughing
          Quote: Kars
          For Leclerc and Challenger 2, do you see a big queue?

          I don’t see. Maybe because dear? Or because one of them was discontinued? laughing
          PS What is your last photo? To the popularity of the T-72? it is yes! And if it were foo T-64, that would be an argument on your part))) But SUDDENLY !!! nobody needs a govnotank wassat
        6. Kars
          Kars 15 December 2013 14: 18 New
          +1
          Quote: nick-name
          Nobody buys the T-64, because no one needs them

          Well, Challenger 2 and Type 90, too, no one buys)))
          and on the T-64, everything is clear - Africans can’t, and more developed countries buy more modern tanks.
          Quote: nick-name
          I don’t see. Maybe because dear? Or because one of them was discontinued?

          Not cheap, well, and Abrams is also not cheap, but they somehow put it in))) and put it into production - there would be customers. By the way, the T-64 is also discontinued)))
          Quote: nick-name
          PS What is your last photo? To the popularity of the T-72? it is yes!

          yes to the popularity of the T-72 among blacks from third world countries.
          Quote: nick-name
          And be on this foo T-64, it would be an argument on your part)))
          Of course. And sooner or later it will be.

          Quote: nick-name
          nobody needs a govnotank
          Are you talking about the T-90MS? Even the Indians, regular customers of the Nizhny Tagil scrap metal, decided not to contact.
        7. svp67
          svp67 15 December 2013 14: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          yes to the popularity of the T-72 among blacks from third world countries.
          Well, how much can you envy ...
          As of 2012:
          Russia:
          Russian Ground Forces - 9000 T-72, T-72A, T-72B and T-72BA, of which 7500 are in storage
          Russian Navy Coast Troops - 96 T-72
          Azerbaijan - 244 T-72,
          Algeria - 325 T-72
          Angola - 50 T-72,
          Armenia - 102 T-72,
          Belarus - 1446 T-72
          Bulgaria - 301 T-72
          Hungary - 30 T-72
          Venezuela - 92 T-72B1V
          Vietnam - 150 T-72M1
          Georgia - 96 T-72, of which 3 are in storage
          DR Congo - 100 T-72M1
          India - 1950 T-72M1
          Iraq - more than 120 T-72
          Iran - 480 T-72Z
          Yemen - 60 T-72
          Kazakhstan - 980 T-72
          Kenya - 110 T-72AG
          Kyrgyzstan - 150 T-72
          Cuba - 50 (51) T-72
          Libya - some T-72
          Macedonia - 31 T-72AG
          Mongolia - 50 units of T-72A
          Morocco - 40 T-72
          Myanmar - 50 T-72
          Oman - 6 units of T-72S
          Poland - 584 T-72, T-72M1D, T-72M1
          Abkhazia - about 40 T-72
          Serbia - 13 T-72
          Syria - about 1500-1700 T-72 and T-72M
          Slovakia - 69 T-72M
          Sudan - 60 units of T-72M1
          USA - 86 T-72 units
          Sierra Leone - 2 T-72 units
          Tajikistan - 30 T-72,
          Turkmenistan - 670 T-72,
          Uganda - 10 T-72,
          Uzbekistan - 70 T-72,
          Ukraine - 1032 T-72,
          Croatia - 3 T-72M,
          Czech Republic - 124 T-72 and 30 T-72M4CZ,
          Ethiopia - 200 T-72E1
          South Ossetia - 75 T-72,
          South Sudan - 110 T-72.

          And for comparison, for the same year ...
          Russia:
          Russian Ground Forces - 2000 T-64A and T-64B (BV) are all in storage and disposed of
          Coastal troops of the Russian Navy - 350 T-64,
          Kazakhstan - some used for educational purposes
          The Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic - about 20, is consolidated into a separate tank battalion of a two-troop composition.
          Uzbekistan - 100 T-64,
          Ukraine - 1667 T-64
        8. Kars
          Kars 15 December 2013 14: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          Well, how much can you envy ...
          As of 2012:

          He smiled. Thank you. It would be better if he noted on the list who received them for nothing, not being forced under the Warsaw Pact.
          Who bought them after the collapse of the USSR
          Quote: svp67
          Ukraine - 1032 T-72,

          Quote: svp67
          Ethiopia - 200 T-72E1

          By the way, the Ethiopians are blacks, and they still haven’t received all 200 tanks, they need to put normal engines and improve their armor protection. And the total should be 1032.

          By the way, the United States bought for targets, and quite a lot in private collections.


          And by the way, do not forget that it was the T-72 that was exported by the USSR to the world, because you were not afraid to declassify a simplified, mobilization tank.
        9. svp67
          svp67 15 December 2013 15: 20 New
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          there you need normal engines

          That's right, otherwise you put on the Soviet T72, everything that is not good, and then the Ethiopians suffer from this ... It would be better if the Germans bought the engines ...
        10. sapran
          sapran 15 December 2013 15: 24 New
          0
          Why didn’t they buy them? There are 2 dozen options for modernization packages for T-72 from 12 countries. Choose whatever you like. WHAT IS DISTURBING? !!
        11. Kars
          Kars 15 December 2013 15: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          That's right, otherwise they put it on the Soviet T72, in

          You didn’t get it. Something that changed Soviet engines.
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 14: 56 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Of course. And sooner or later it will be.
    How is it "... with a probability tending to zero ..."
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 15: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    How is it "... with a probability tending to zero ..."

    Well, do not be so friendly to the Ukrainian military-industrial complex to be configured.

    Remember about the 2000 T-64 cut? How much time has passed? And how is the confirmation?))

    and okay. the question is, how does a professional tanker know how best to go into battle with or without a rubber anti-cumulative screen? (choice or or) Is it possible to put ... a rubber burdock ... put or reject in anger?
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 15: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    and okay. the question is, how does a professional tanker know how best to go into battle with or without a rubber anti-cumulative screen? (choice or or) Is it possible to put ... a rubber burdock ... put or reject in anger?


    What are you talking about? About this notorious "skirt" in the front, under the NLD? If about her, then I WILL REPEAT ... It would be better if it were like this ...


    since this "skirt" is very quickly lost, especially on rough terrain and when you need to use UBO ...
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 15: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    What are you talking about? About this notorious "skirt" in front

    About any
    Quote: svp67
    It would be better if it were like this ...

    How So? In your opinion on the T-80U there is no self-digging knife?
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 15: 53 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    How So? In your opinion on the T-80U there is no self-digging knife?

    Yes, but it is made differently ...
    as on previous modifications, but in the future they planned to install the UBO on the T80 in this way ... and it would be better.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 15: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Yes, but it is made differently ..

    was he not metal?

    Quote: svp67
    planned to install the UBO in this way ... and that would be better.

    If I honestly catch a big difference. What is better in the new in relation to anti-cumulative resistance?

    And the question remains in force better without a rubber screen? Or with it?
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 16: 02 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    What is new in relation to cumulative resistance?
    "SCARY" cumulative stream, has a number of "congenital weaknesses". The installation of the UBO, according to the "new" way, would prevent the penetration of the NLD and would save the life of the driver.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 16: 24 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    setting UBO, in a "new way" would prevent the breakdown of the NLD and save the life of the driver.

    So I don’t argue, I’m just asking - what has changed there? Accidentally an air gap did not appear there? A gap?

    By the way, the T-62 is completed, almost)))

    Now I can’t decide what to take the T-64B or

    http://www.modeli.com.ua/product/sbornaya-model-sovetskogo-osnovnogo-boevogo-tan
    ka-t-80u-xact-models-XS35001.html
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 19: 19 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    accidentally the air gap did not appear there? gap?

    That's it, plus the increased thickness of the shovel itself ...
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 19: 47 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    ? accidentally no air gap appeared? clearance?

    Quote: svp67
    That's it

    Anyone heard anything?
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 20: 24 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Now I can’t decide what to take the T-64B or

    And whose model is that?

    By the way, the T-62 is completed, almost)))
    What a strange "dinosaur", "name" without a number, is he from whose army?

  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 20: 29 New
    +1
    It seems that they talked on the topic - Trumpeter. On the Scythian, my hands are crooked.


    Syria.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 20: 34 New
    +1
    It is a pity that this picture did not get caught before painting.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 20: 49 New
    +1
    By the way, he still touched the future from an insider look.
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 20: 53 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    By the way still hurt
    Even the IS7 has already been modeled. Well what can I say - Well done and shame on us.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 21: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Even the IS7 has already been modeled

    T-10 will also campaign in 2014.
    And ours - the Scythian is for children. The star - took the four - presented. And they did T-90 for 10 years. And then the meng did better.

    and so maybe the Russian state could ozobotitsa patriotic development of youth, but ..
  • Kars
    Kars 16 December 2013 15: 16 New
    +1
    By the way, I caught the moment of propaganda and distortion of tank history in the Journal of Technology and Armament.
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 15: 56 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    About any
    The benefit of the RUBBER-SCREEN screen mounted on the tank is UNCONDABLE, and not only in terms of protecting the tank from cumulative shells ...
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 15: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    The use of the RUBBER-SCREEN screen mounted on the tank is UNCONDABLE

    I don’t need more.
  • svp67
    svp67 15 December 2013 15: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    It is possible to put .. rubber burdock.

    And this "skirt" first appeared on the T80B, on the T64 it was not previously installed in such a way that this is also not your "know-how"
  • Kars
    Kars 15 December 2013 15: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    on T64 it was not previously installed in such a way that this is also not your "know-how"

    And I do not argue about the primacy in this matter.
    All the same, the Germans were the first to install anti-cumulative screens in WWII.
  • sapran
    sapran 15 December 2013 15: 00 New
    +2
    And so slowly but somehow they began to understand
    1. premature undermining of KZ has already been recognized (it remains only to understand what the focus depends on laughing But didn’t they publish it in the research institute?) What do you think for a 105 mm cumulative funnel, what obstacle and material is enough to neutralize its energy? bully (in my opinion this is a calculation task from the Department of Materials Science, al-humanitarian?)
    2. If your knowledge is so valuable and secret then say so, but don’t tell rubbish about tutors oki? (I honestly wanted to come to a single conceptual material for the subject of our dispute)
    3. T-72, T80BV, T-80R, T-80U withdrawn from service of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (non-liquid) The Russian side was not interested in the proposal to exchange new equipment. Some of the cars were cut, gas cutters were not reached and exhibited and successfully sold in a third of the country (it’s cheaper and somewhat more profitable for the economy of a very poor country and its aircraft on whose balance this property hangs)
    4. The Russian Federation has planned to destroy more than 2 thousand T-64s, this is logical and justified for the RF Armed Forces, since more than 4-6 thousand vehicles of the T-72 family are offered to the markets at a price cheaper than "Chinese candy wrappers" There is a collapse of the entire armored vehicle market for everyone countries of technology manufacturers threatens. And you are talking about the T-64 beads mosque ... wonderful.
    5 Have you at least somehow sided with the army? Logistics is a familiar word (it works on a civilian too) So draw conclusions by looking at + and - from various weapons and support options for specific countries.
    And they didn’t say anything good about protection either, and according to technology, only spoil the air ...
  • sapran
    sapran 11 December 2013 16: 36 New
    +2
    Yes Yes It’s not necessary to advertise. (So it’s not long to get into the enemies of the people)
    ... To hold back and collapse a little different things ... but still, let's so that UVZ is simply "not interested" in modernizing the legacy of the USSR - they have very "effective managers" and they know how to count. For some reason, you don’t want to think about the fact that apart from UVZ there is a TRZ, but these are jobs in regions with guaranteed payment (something like this)
    1. Legioner
      Legioner 11 December 2013 17: 06 New
      0
      Quote: sapran
      Yes Yes It’s not necessary to advertise. (So it’s not long to get into the enemies of the people)
      please explain ?
      I agree with the rest
      1. sapran
        sapran 13 December 2013 18: 32 New
        +1
        Do not look for a catch in words.
        1. what needs to be improved in the machines of the T-72-90 series in the first place - correctly the LMS (a fairly simple solution but monetary in terms of costs)
        2 And in the T-64-80? (the engine is a bit more complicated (the presence of the engine + transmission + auxiliary systems = body work but in terms of money compared to the LMS it’s a penny)
        So there is no point in investing in R&D on this topic by Russia.
        1. Jake danzels
          Jake danzels 13 December 2013 18: 43 New
          +1
          Quote: sapran
          1. what needs to be improved in the machines of the T-72-90 series in the first place - correctly the LMS (a fairly simple solution but monetary in terms of costs)

          Yes, only all the same, military trials are necessary, and I didn’t blind you from what it was, I mean there will be armor like with the T72-BZ, but damn the mistakes are the same old, there is an aim row but damn ergonomics in the furnace, etc. .

          Quote: sapran
          And in the T-64-80? (the engine is a bit more complicated (the presence of the engine + transmission + auxiliary systems = body work but in terms of money compared to the LMS it’s a penny)

          Do you mean 64 and 80 RF or Ukraine?
          If Ukraine, then yes, modernization is necessary (I'm not talking about BM Bulat, namely, the Kyrgyz Republic with the replacement of the power plant + APU) of at least all tanks to the T-64BV level.
          If about the Russian Federation, then we transfer from empty to empty because it makes no sense to upgrade the tanks that were withdrawn from service (64 already, 80 replace in the army).

          It is a pity that at one time the Russian Federation and Ukraine did not change the T-80B / BV / U to the T-80UD. It would not be so sad:


    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 11 December 2013 19: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: sapran
      For some reason, besides UVZ, there is a TRZ, for some reason you don’t want to think about jobs in the regions with guaranteed payment (something like this)

      UVZ Corporation includes the following enterprises:
      OJSC “Research and Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod”
      OJSC Ural Transport Engineering Plant (Uraltransmash)
      OJSC "Plant No. 9"
      OJSC Rubtsovsk Machine-Building Plant
      OJSC Kamensk-Uralsky Foundry
      Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant - Uraltrac LLC and Vityaz Engineering Company OJSC
      NPO Elektromashina OJSC
      Uralkriomash OJSC
      OJSC "All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Transport Engineering"
      OJSC Central Research Institute Burevestnik
      OJSC Central Research Institute of Materials
      JSC "Research Institute of Engines"
      OJSC Ural Scientific Research Technological Institute
      OJSC "Scientific and Production Company for the Implementation of Scientific and Engineering Innovations"
      OJSC "Ural Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
      JSC "Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
      OJSC "Special Design Bureau of Transport Engineering"
      OJSC "Murom Special Design Bureau"
      Ural Heavy Equipment - Uralvagonzavod CJSC UBT-UVZ
      Volchan Mechanical Plant
      OJSC "Electroautomat"
      OJSC "ElectroMachine-building Plant" LEPSE ""
      LLC UVZ-Logistic
      CJSC UVZ-Trans
      Sambre et meuse
      Tver Carriage Works OJSC
      OJSC Tomsk Electrotechnical Plant
      1. svp67
        svp67 12 December 2013 02: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Bad_gr
        UVZ Corporation includes the following enterprises:

        I’ll add that many are now asking for this corporation, since this is a GUARANTEE of government orders ...
      2. sapran
        sapran 13 December 2013 19: 33 New
        0
        It’s very good that they are part of a corporation ...
        Now the question is what they got into?
        How many cars and by what type did they upgrade?
        How is the distribution in R&D?
  • psiho117
    psiho117 11 December 2013 05: 00 New
    0
    "Outside were such luminaries in the production of tanks as England, Italy, Russia." - Am I the only one confused on this list by Italy?
    Quote: uhjpysq1
    ))))) rather they will switch to leopards.) banderlogs like German junk
    in vain you are so - Leo is a very worthy car. And the German used is often better than the Russian "off the assembly line".
  • Lesorub
    Lesorub 12 December 2013 16: 27 New
    +1
    Great tank !!! Even for 2013, the booking, the fire control system is at the proper level (special + frontal booking "knife" system), the automatic loader where needed. It is a pity that Ukraine is developing a lot of interesting things, but there are very few new models of new technology in service!
  • demotivator
    demotivator 13 December 2013 16: 34 New
    -2
    "Yatagan" is a beautiful Turkish word. By the way, just like "Maidan", it also comes from Turkey.
  • DmitriVoronez
    DmitriVoronez 14 December 2013 00: 44 New
    0
    T-90 steers that says it all
  • Surovy topor
    Surovy topor 19 August 2017 02: 22 New
    0
    A lot of blah blah blah and the Turks took Leopard into service, and the result was the development of Altai MBT by them. Well, the most epic result is the luminaries-winners are disgraced in Syria and Iraq. And Russia ... Russia is overtaking to the fullest in tanks)