Military Review

Anti-submarine missiles: the demons of two elements

14



Delay in the fight against submarines - death like. In combat conditions, as soon as the boat is found, you must immediately take measures to destroy it. Hard contact can be lost at any second, and then expect trouble: the submarine will have time to defuse its ammunition in the cities on the other end of the Earth or rush into a counterattack, firing six or eight torpedoes at a sluggish destroyer, which will be extremely difficult and risky to evade. .

Already in the first post-war years, the question of the mismatch between the capabilities of the ships' sonar facilities and the capabilities of their anti weapons. Under favorable conditions, the SAS ensured a decent detection range for those times (up to 1 miles in active mode and up to 3-4 miles in noise-finding mode), while the main anti-submarine weapons of the ships remained bomb emitters and jet bombers like the British Hedgehog "(" Hedgehog "). The first ones allowed to attack the boat with deep caliber bombs, rolling them into the water directly behind the stern of the ship. In this case, for a successful attack was required to be exactly above the boat, which is unlikely in most meetings with the underwater threat. Missile multi-bombed bombs of the war years allowed firing volleys of depth charges directly along the course, but the range still remained unsatisfactory - no more 200-250 meters from the ship’s side.

All this time, the developers of the submarines did not stand still and continuously improved the design of their offspring - speed / range in underwater position / snorkel (RDP), detection tools and weapons. The horizon has already colored the dawn of the atomic era - in 1955 the first Nautilus submarine will enter the sea. Fleet It required a powerful and reliable weapon, capable of hitting enemy submarines at previously inaccessible distances, while having a minimum reaction time.

Bearing in mind that the most effective means during the war years were jet depth charges, engineers began to develop this idea. By 1951, the American fleet was armed with the RUR-4 “Alpha” jet bomb, a powerful weapon that allowed them to hurl 110 kg of explosives at a distance above 700 meters. The launch mass of the jet bomb is 238 kg, the flight speed is 85 m / s. System rate of fire - 12 rds / min. Ammunition - 22 Ready Shot.

Anti-submarine missiles: the demons of two elements

RUR-4 Weapon Alpha

A similar weapon was installed on the ships of the Navy of the USSR - jet bombs of the RBU family (1000, 1200, 2500, 6000, 12000). The index in most cases indicates the maximum firing range. Unlike the American RUR-4, domestic RBUs ​​were multilateral - from five (for the primitive RBU-1200, 1955) to ten to twelve stems (RBU-6000 / 12000). In addition to its main function - the fight against enemy submarines, the RBU could be used as an effective anti-torpedo system, allowing you to cover the torpedo going to the ship with one volley or set the barrier out of false targets. Powerful and unpretentious RBU turned out to be such a successful system that they still stand on the decks of most surface ships of the Russian Navy.


Small anti-submarine ship firing from RBU-6000 "Smerch-2"

But all efforts ultimately proved futile. The use of depth bombs at large distances did not give the desired result: the error of the means of detection, superimposed on the circular probable deviation of jet ammunition, did not allow to hit modern nuclear-powered ships with due efficiency. There was only one way out - to use a small-sized homing torpedo as a warhead. The once primitive "Hedzhhog" has become a complex combat system, the true demon of two elements: rocket technology and torpedo weapons, sealed by the fusion of the most modern technologies in the field of microelectronics.

The first such complex, RUR-5 ASROC (Anti-Submarine ROCket), appeared in 1961 year - the box-based launcher Mk.16 for many years became the hallmark of the US Navy and allied fleets. The use of ASROK gave a huge advantage to the "probable enemy" anti-submarine forces and brought the combat capabilities of destroyers and frigates of the US Navy to a completely different level.

The system quickly spread throughout the world: the ASROS could be installed on board warships of most classes — torpedo missiles (PLUR) were used in the ammunition sets of nuclear cruisers, destroyers and frigates, massively installed on outdated destroyers of the Second World War (the FRAM program for turning old ships into hunters for the Soviet submarines). Actively delivered to allied countries - sometimes as a separate technology, sometimes bundled with export ships. Japan, Germany, Greece, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Mexico, Taiwan ... In total, 14 states are among the users of ASROK!


RUR-5 ASROC. Starting weight 432 ... 486 kg (depending on the version and type of warhead). Length - 4,5 m. Ammunition speed - 315 m / s. Max. firing range - 5 miles.

The main reason for the success of the ASROC complex, in comparison with similar systems, was its balance. At first glance, the American PLUR did not have enough stars from the sky: max. the firing range was only 9 km. Such a solution has a simple explanation - the PLUR range is primarily determined not by the duration of the rocket engines, but by the capabilities of the ship's acoustic detection equipment. Indeed, why does PLUR fly tens of kilometers - if it is impossible to find a boat at such a distance ?!

The range of the first ASROC exactly corresponded to the effective detection range of the sonars (first of all, AN / SQS-23 - the base GUS of all American 60-s ships). As a result, the system was relatively simple, cheap and compact. Subsequently, it greatly helped to unify the torpedo missile with the new systems of naval weapons: several generations of small-sized torpedoes, special combat units W44 with 10 CT power, three variants of launchers. Besides 8-charging container Mk.16, raketotorpedy launched from the launching beam Mk.26 plants (atomic cruisers "Virginia" destroyers, "Kidd", the first sub-series "Ticonderoga") or PU MK.10 (Italian missile cruiser "Vittorio Veneto" ).


The destroyer Agerholm observes the effects of his shot. Tests of ASROK with YABCH, 1962

Ultimately, excessive standardization has been destructive: to date, only one RUM-139 VLA PCRK remains in service with the US Navy, whose capabilities (first of all, the firing range, 22 km) no longer fully meet the needs of the modern fleet. It is curious that ASROC for a long time could not adapt to vertical launch installations - as a result, all modern cruisers and destroyers of 8 years (1985-93) went without anti-submarine missile complexes.


It is curious that the ASROC system PU could also be used to launch the Harpoon RCC

More interesting is the situation in the overseas submarine fleet - in the middle of the 60-x the US Navy received a submarine-launched UUM-44 SUBROC submarine. A large two-ton ammunition, launched from a standard torpedo tube, was designed to destroy enemy submarines at distances greater than the range of the torpedo weapon. Equipped with a nuclear warhead power 5 CT. Max. firing range - 55 km. Flight profile is similar to ASROC. It is curious that the first SUBROC set delivered to the fleet was lost along with the dead submarine “Tresher”.

By the end of the 80's, the outdated system was finally retired, and there was no replacement: the promising UUM-125 "CELANCE" complex was still in the sketches. As a result, the US Navy submarines have been completely unable to use anti-submarine missiles for a quarter of a century. I wish them the same in the future. Especially since no work on this topic is underway.

Among other foreign anti-submarine complexes, the Ikara complex (Australia / UK) should be noted. Unlike the simple ASROK, which simply flew along a ballistic trajectory in the indicated direction, the Icara was a real unmanned aircraft, whose flight was continuously monitored during the entire time. This made it possible to make operational changes in the trajectory of the aircraft carrier - in accordance with the updated sonar data, thereby specifying the place where the torpedo was dropped and increasing the chances of success. Separating the warhead with a parachute, the Icarus did not fall into the water, but continued its flight — the system would divert the carrier aircraft to the side so that the sound of its fall did not distract the torpedo guidance system. Max. the launch range was 10 miles (18,5 km).


Ikara

Ikara turned out to be exceptionally good, but the British Admiralty was too impoverished for the serial purchases of this complex: only one of the planned ships equipped with the ICRK Icara could be built - the destroyer type BNNXX Bristol. Another 82 complexes were installed during the modernization of old frigates. Also, several complexes appeared on Australian ships. Subsequently, the ships from the Ikara PLRK passed through the hands of New Zealand, Chilean and Brazilian sailors. On this 8-year-old stories "Icarus" is over.

There are other “national” rocket-torpedo complexes that are not widely used - for example, the French Maladon submarine missile radar (currently retired), the modern South Korean complex Honsan'o (Red Shark) or the Italian in every sense MILAS is an anti-submarine missile based on the OCR anti-ship missile with an 35 + km range, equipped with one of the world's best compact torpedoes MU90 Impact. At the moment, the MILAS complex is installed on board five ships of the Italian Navy, incl. promising frigates type FREMM.

Domestic supertechnika

The rocket theme was the main trend in the development of the national navy - and, of course, the idea of ​​anti-submarine missile-torpedo complexes here has grown into a really violent color. At different periods of time in service were 11 PLRK, differing in weight and size characteristics and methods of basing. Among them (with a list of the most interesting features):

- RPK-1 "Whirlwind" - nuclear warhead, ballistic trajectory, two variants of PU, the complex was installed on anti-submarine and aircraft-carrying cruisers of the USSR Navy with 1968 g .;

- RPK-2 "Blizzard" - underwater basing, launching through a standard 533-mm machine;

- URPK-3 / 4 “Snowstorm” - for equipping surface ships: BOD Ave. 1134А, 1134Б and patrol ships of 1135 Ave;

- The URK-5 “Rastrub-B” is an upgraded Metel complex with a range of 50… 55 km, which corresponds to the detection range of the Polynom GAS. It is possible to use the PLRK as an anti-ship missile (without separating the warhead);

- RPK-6М “Waterfall” - a unified system for launching from NK and PL torpedo tubes, firing range over 50 km, equipped with UGMT-1 deep-water self-guided torpedo;

Fantastic launch of the Vodopad-NK from the board of the large anti-submarine ship Admiral Chabanenko. Having jumped out of the torpedo apparatus, the ammunition is immersed in water (unification with submarines!), After a second to jump out of the waves and, fluffing up the fiery tail, rush off into the clouds.

- RPK-7 “Wind” - underwater basing, launching through a standard 650 mm torpedo tube, nuclear warhead, launch range - up to 100 km with issuing digital control center using own sonar tools from other ships, submarines, airplanes and satellites;

- RPK-8 - is an improvisation based on the widespread RBU-6000. Instead of the RSL, small-sized PLUR 90Ps are used, which allows 8-10 times to increase efficiency compared to the original system. The complex is installed on board the Fearless and Yaroslav the Wise patrol ships, as well as Indian frigates of the Shivalik type;

- RPK-9 "Medvedka" - small anti-submarine complex to equip the IPC. The experimental model in 1990-s was tested from the board of the IPC on hydrofoils, etc. 1141 "Alexander Kunakhovich". According to some data, an upgraded version of the Medvedka-2 with a vertical launch is currently being developed to equip promising Russian frigates of the 22350 Ave;

- APR-1 and APR-2 - anti-submarine air-launched missile-torpedo complexes. They were launched from the Il-38 and Tu-142 aircraft, Ka-27PL helicopters. In service with the 1971 year;

- APR-3 and 3M "Eagle" - aviation PLUR with a turbojet engine;


URK-5 "rastrub-B" on a large anti-submarine ship





PU "Rastrub-B" (or "Snowstorm") on board the TFR pr. 1135

Domestic developers are not going to rest on their laurels - it is proposed to include new PLUR 91Рs from the family of Caliber missiles into the armament of future ships of the Russian Navy. The ballistic trajectory, the launch range 40 ... 50 km, the flight speed 2..2,5 M. The AFP-3 and MPT-1 self-guided torpedoes are used as warheads. The launch is carried out through the standard UVP of the Universal Ship Shooting Complex (USKS), which is planned to be installed on the promising corvettes of the 20385 Ave. and frigates of the 22350 Ave.

Epilogue

Nowadays, anti-submarine torpedo missiles remain one of the most effective and effective anti-submarine weapons, which allow enemy submarines to be “kept at a distance”, preventing them from a distance of a torpedo salvo. On the other hand, the inclusion of a submarine ammunition submarine ammunition provides substantial advantages to the submarine fleet, allowing you to quickly strike your “brothers” at distances that are many times longer than the effective use of torpedo weapons.

No anti-submarine aircraft and helicopters can match the PLUR by reaction time and volley power. The use of PLO helicopters is limited by weather conditions — when waves are in excess of 5 points and wind speeds over 30 m / s, it is difficult to use the lowered HAC, besides, the helicopter HAC is always inferior in power and sensitivity to the ships' hydroacoustic stations. In this case, only the tested GUS + PLUR combination allows for effective anti-submarine defense of the compound.


Shows the work of ASROC, Ikara anti-submarine systems, a LAMPS helicopter and a coastal / carrier-based aircraft. In the near, the most critical zone, anti-submarine missiles are leading the way.

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  1. Evgeny_Lev
    Evgeny_Lev 9 December 2013 09: 42
    +9
    very impressed by vidyuha.
    Respectos. good
  2. 1969s9691g.
    1969s9691g. 9 December 2013 11: 46
    +2
    in this case, the ns has no competitors, and the powerless will not be for a long time.
  3. Panikovsky
    Panikovsky 9 December 2013 14: 49
    +2
    not to add, not to decrease, and the epithet -Gorizont has already colored the dawn of the atomic era - well, just in Bulgakov's style.
  4. Beck
    Beck 9 December 2013 16: 29
    +1
    I understand.
    "In combat conditions, as soon as the boat is discovered, you need to immediately take action to destroy it."
    "or she will throw herself in a counterattack, firing six or eight torpedoes at a slow destroyer, evading them will prove to be extremely difficult and risky."

    This is when an ordinary submarine confronts surface ships in any limited confrontation.

    I don’t understand something else.

    "In combat conditions, as soon as the boat is discovered, you need to immediately take action to destroy it."
    or the submarine manages to defuse its ammunition in cities on the other side of the Earth.

    A nuclear submarine is a weapon of the first strike and, in essence, a one-time action. And if, without any theoretical assumptions, then - All the time to keep all atomic submarines of the alleged enemy in sight, in previous peacetime in the vast oceans, is not realistic. In addition, the opposing side a priori cannot know exactly when the enemy will strike.

    I.e. The submarine received an order and gave a full salvo of strategic missiles, according to predetermined goals. All. Who will need it empty. And the ability to replenish ammunition at the base is negligible. It is possible that not only the base, but the country itself will be gone. There will be nowhere to swim.

    And the author describes the alleged events in the vision of 2MB. They say the war has begun, and nuclear submarines instead of firing a salvo roam the oceans. And then, maybe after an hour or a week, destroyers suddenly discover an atomic submarine with full ammunition. Nonsense.

    I emphasize without any theoretical assumptions. Without can be, and if, in certain cases.
    1. Santa Fe
      9 December 2013 17: 59
      +5
      Quote: Beck
      The submarine received an order and gave a full salvo of strategic missiles, according to predetermined goals.

      Received an order))

      You are aware that this is not so simple. And it can often take a lot of time. A lot of time. How to broadcast a radio signal through a multimeter layer of sea water? (salt water is an excellent conductor = the appearance of a stable skin effect, the radio signal will not pass)
      Quote: Beck
      And the author describes the alleged events in the vision of 2MB.

      RUR-4 created in 1946-50
      ASROK was created in the middle of 1950's
      Quote: Beck
      And then, maybe after an hour or a week, destroyers suddenly discover an atomic submarine with full ammunition.

      Quite a real situation for the 60's
      What was the flight range of the first Soviet SLBMs?

      This is the 43th navy communications center, Vileika. Low Frequency Transmitter - Umbrella antenna on 350 meter towers. With the help of this thing, you can contact ps submarine at periscope depth in the North. parts of the Atlantic and the Arctic Ocean. To communicate with a boat going at great depths, even more monstrous ELF transmitters are needed (and a boat needs to drag a towed kilometer antenna) - but this system has a too narrow data channel (1 bit in a few minutes). To transmit specific information - you have to pop up and listen to the broadcast via satellite. In short, all this is very dreary, for a long time - the problem of reliable communication with the submarine is not solved until now.
      1. I think so
        I think so 10 December 2013 19: 49
        -1
        Dear SWEET_SIXTEEN, You are saying that
        "the problem of reliable communication with the submarine has not been solved so far."
        I dare to disagree with you. If this problem had not been resolved, there would be no ballistic missile patrols. Well, we see that the boats are patrolling and your unfounded statements on them (boats) are not valid.
        Further and what is the problem of the boat pulling the antenna for a kilometer or more? Well, no problem. And what is the problem not to float to the periscope depth, and even to lie on the ground to throw out a pop-up (not even on the very surface) buoy with at least a kilometer, even with a short-wave antenna? And there is no problem. And where did you get the idea that the problem has not been resolved, I don’t understand.
      2. FREGATENKAPITAN
        FREGATENKAPITAN 10 December 2013 20: 02
        +1
        You are aware that this is not so simple. And it can often take a lot of time. A lot of time. How to broadcast a radio signal through a multimeter layer of sea water? (salt water is an excellent conductor = the appearance of a stable skin effect, the radio signal will not pass)........ Well, my friend .... I waited for my topic ......... As the Commander of the BS-4 (communications) on the nuclear missile carrier .......... I do not want it’s natural to open the whole kitchen of receiving the RPK SN signal to increase the BG, and then to unlock and launch the missiles, I’ll simply say that the ELF (and not the ELF, as you say) and the SDV provide fast and high-quality transmission of the Combat Command Signal for submarines at sea on BS, well, the start of the first one occurs after 15- maximum 20 minutes from the moment of receiving the signal ....... And then .... and then hello to the participants of the competition!
      3. The comment was deleted.
  5. Beck
    Beck 9 December 2013 18: 18
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    Are you aware that this is not so simple


    I specifically emphasized twice, without theoretical assumptions. For ordinary boats, in a limited conflict - yes. For a world nuclear war - no.

    Whatever the connection a priori, it should not be known to the enemy.
  6. Rus2012
    Rus2012 9 December 2013 18: 22
    +4
    It is strange that AUG fans behave suspiciously quietly ... laughing
    If I understood everything correctly, then strike nuclear submarines with, for example, "Granites", "Onyxes" by regular GAS surface ships at a distance of over 60 km are reliably undetectable ... :)))
    Search under these conditions and the probability of detection is inversely proportional to the square of the search distance !!
    Kashmar! And how do they survive this? fellow
  7. xomaNN
    xomaNN 9 December 2013 18: 22
    +3
    I was directly glad to see in the article in the photo the native KT100 installations for "Snowstorms". Our equipment for working with the "stuffing" of these pieces was on the 1135, 1134B projects. Put my hand on this weapon winked In the 80s there were good examples!
  8. postman
    postman 9 December 2013 18: 35
    +2
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    the problem of reliable communication with the submarine is not solved until now.

    1. Most of the coastal communications centers of the US Navy, as well as American radio stations located in Europe and the Western Pacific, are equipped with long-wave transmitters that provide communication at a distance of 3-4 thousand km. The main coastal DCs have ADD transmitters (3-30 kHz), which provide communication with submarines at a distance of up to 16 thousand km. The U.S. Navy currently has seven such nodes, three of them - Annapolis (Washington), Lualual (Hawaiian Islands) and Balboa (Panama Canal Zone) - were built before the Second World War and have been modernized several times. In the 60s and 70s, Cutler (Maine), Jim Creek (Washington), North West Cap (Australia), and San Francisco (California) radio centers were established.
    2. Transmissions to VHF(reception in the surface or periscope) range are carried out within. line of sight or through the Flitsatcom satellite system (range 225-400 MHz), which was replaced by the Lisat system in the second half of the 80s.
    One of the channels of the satellite system (bandwidth 25 kHz) is intended for relay circular gears for the fleet, including for submarines. In this case, transmissions in the link "earth - satellites" are carried out in the centimeter range, and the "satellites - ship" - in decimeter. For broadcasts, AN / FSC-79 ground stations are used, located in the main communications centers of the Navy in Norfolk (USA), Honolulu (Hawaii), Naples (Italy), Guam (Pacific Ocean) and Diego Garcia (Indian Ocean). On submarines, these transmissions are received by a single US Navy receiver AN / SRR-1.
    3.KB range (3-30 MHz) in relation to other ranges is used as a backup.
    4. The reserve ADD communications system, created back in the 60, was deployed on relay aircraft (the EU-130Q will be replaced by new aircraft - E-6А), which received the name TAKAMO.
    5. A project for a VLF communication system with a total value of 230 million dollars (received the name ELF - Extremely Low Frequency)
    6: A blue-green laser project (0,42-0,53 μm) that overcomes the aquatic environment with the least loss and penetrates to a depth of 300 m.
    7. The emergency communication of submarines with airplanes, surface ships and coastal stations is provided by an automatic complex transmitting in the KB range using a communication buoy issued from a submarine and floating up on the surface, on which a telescopic antenna is mounted.

    1. Old skeptic
      Old skeptic 9 December 2013 18: 47
      0
      Is it easier? How to quickly transmit the order "PLI" to the boat? That is, before the enemy realizes that all the "armagid" and the boat urgently need to be drowned.
      1. postman
        postman 9 December 2013 19: 10
        +1
        Quote: Old Skeptic
        But it’s easier

        Well, like this:
        1. A special ICBM equipped with special ammunition (Essential nuclear), but specific in power (or tandem, tridem, delayed), weak of course
        2.Order, start, after 20-30 minutes, undermining the set point of the MO
        3. PL accepts this subversion (waves)
        4.PPL floats up to the periscope and receives updated instructions
        *or instead of 1-2 undermining underground YaBZ (again "specialized")
        The submarine receives seismic waves (surface-water), after a time T equal to S / V:
        1 m / s in water and 450 m / s in granite + time for making a decision and giving a signal to detonate ("kopecks"), then 5-000.

        **or instead of 1-2 undermining a previously placed YaBZ (again, "specialized") on the NOOP (km 200-250), it is likely that the disturbance that it will cause in the atmosphere can be taken while under water, then 3-4.
        *** or "sow the okiyan with cheap autonomous bots, which, while swimming in a submerged state (50m depth), pull the VHF antenna along the surface, which, having received the" attack "signal, relay it (sound 1 450 m / s) to the submarine, then 3-4.
        ==== something like this
        any method that allows you to "SHAKE" the water surface (thickness) or to give such a flash that you can SEE (fix) through the water column.
        1. Santa Fe
          9 December 2013 20: 22
          -1
          Quote: Postman
          1. A special ICBM equipped with special ammunition (Essential nuclear), but specific in power (or tandem, tridem, delayed), weak of course
          2.Order, start, after 20-30 minutes, undermining the set point of the MO
          3. PL accepts this subversion (waves)

          Yes, this is complete insanity

          Reliable two-way communication is needed, and not these prodigies with JBF. Laser through the water column, for example. But while in practice they don’t know how to do it
          1. postman
            postman 9 December 2013 20: 31
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Yes, this is complete insanity. The Carter will steal them the next day.

            Land-based ICBMs ????
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Yes, this is complete insanity
            -EXACTLY

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Reliable Two-Way Communication Required

            In the absence of a (yet) stamp, we write in simple.
            TASK: quickly and reliably transmit a signal to the submarine (attack or "Get in touch"
            In my (!) The above methods allow this

            2-sided from the submarine to the base WITHOUT REDUCTION, at VLF is not possible, for physical reasons
            1. Santa Fe
              9 December 2013 21: 27
              0
              Quote: Postman
              Land-based ICBMs ????

              Sory, read crooked diagonally
              It seemed that you were going to place them at the bottom
              Quote: Postman
              TASK: quickly and reliably transmit a signal to the submarine (attack or "Get in touch"

              How about communication with multipurpose and SSAR
              1. postman
                postman 9 December 2013 22: 08
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                It seemed that you were going to place them at the bottom

                Well then think about this absurdity.
                THEN I WOULD PLACE BELL AND RINGER ON THE DAY (1500m / s for hundreds of kilometers)
                Physical foundations of underwater acoustics, trans. from English, ed. V.I. Myasishchev, M., 1955; Brekhovskikh L. M., Waves in layered media, M., 1957; Underwater acoustics, per. from English, ed. L. M. Brekhovskikh, t. 1, M., 1965, t. 2, M., 1970: Stashkevich A.P., Acoustics of the sea, L., 1966: Tolstoy I., Clay K.S., Acoustics of the ocean , per. from English., M., 1969.

                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                How about communication with multipurpose and SSAR

                Well, I would (personally) do this:
                1. Equipped submarines with mini-autonomous bots (d = tennis ball?)
                2. with an interval (30min, 1 hour) the submarine from sars (sows)
                3. The submarine is removed at X km, the bot receives a circulation signal and transmits it to the submarine with a hydro-acoustic signal (encrypted)
                Submarine according to him, and he is a satellite
                4.Not stock of bots out of stock? It can be replenished in pre-agreed places, or dropped from aircraft or purely civilian ships in "pre-agreed places
                5. Having completed its task, the bot self-destructs or self-floods
                truncated
                1. Santa Fe
                  9 December 2013 22: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Postman
                  THEN I WOULD PLACE BELL AND RINGER ON THE DAY (1500m / s for hundreds of kilometers)

                  Does the damping of oscillations not bother you?
                  In the air, 300 m / s, and the hell for 300 m scream. Especially on a busy street
                  Quote: Postman
                  4. Out of stock bots?

                  Out of stock
                  1. postman
                    postman 9 December 2013 23: 28
                    +1
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Does the damping of oscillations not bother you?

                    The main feature of underwater sounds is their small attenuation as a result, under water sounds can spread at much greater distances than, for example, in the aire.
                    Underwater sound channel - a layer of water in the seas and oceans in which it is possible extra long sound propagation due to refraction.
                    "The phenomenon of ultra-long-range sound propagation in the sea was discovered independently by American scientists M. Ewing and J. Worzel (1944) and Soviet scientists L. M. Brekhovskikh and L. D. Rosenberg (1946)."
                    ... if you put the source and receiver of sound in this layer, then even sounds of medium intensity (for example, explosions of small charges of 1-2 kg) can be recorded at distances hundreds and thousands of miles.

                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Out of stock

                    Now the GPS chip on opt costs $ 1,5, and when (as GLONAS is now) - UNLOCKED $ 100

                    Does this play a role for the country's STRATEGIC security and ensuring operational communication with the nuclear submarines?
                    The cost of the GAS buoy? And how many of them "sow" AUG?
                    1. Santa Fe
                      10 December 2013 02: 10
                      0
                      Quote: Postman
                      Now the GPS chip on opt costs 1,5 $,

                      This is GPS
                      Is a radio transmitter of sufficient power? What about the power source?
                      How about two way communication with the sub?
                      Quote: Postman
                      The cost of the GAS buoy? And how many of them "sow" AUG?

                      In peacetime it sows a little
                      And, as far as I know, they are trying to catch them back
                      1. postman
                        postman 10 December 2013 02: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A radio transmitter

                        ChMP GOS was as an example, price drops, from count and time, and you yourself can judge on TV or PC
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How about two way communication with the sub?


                        current like this:


                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And, as far as I know, they are trying to catch them back

                        and who prevents catching bots BACK? in peacetime?
                      2. Santa Fe
                        10 December 2013 03: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Postman
                        Chmos GOS was an example

                        I get it, but this is a bad example. A transmitter is almost always smaller and cheaper than a receiver (Voyager and Goldstone aren’t an example!)

                        a transmitter of sufficient power, noise immunity, a power source, a system of underwater communication with a submarine, auxiliary systems ... every hour an iPhone 5G should be thrown into the water))) and the iPhone is not simple, but encrusted with sapphires - do you remember how much the mini-robot "Minerva" cost, a probe Hayabusa?
                        Quote: Postman
                        you yourself can judge on TV or PC

                        still too expensive for disposable supplies
                        Quote: Postman
                        and who prevents catching bots BACK? in peacetime?

                        1. this will violate the stealth of deployment of submarines
                        2. small size and life cycle of these devices
                      3. postman
                        postman 10 December 2013 11: 35
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A transmitter is almost always smaller and cheaper than a receiver

                        GSM, 3G, LTE phones and IRIDIUM (satellite communications)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        sufficient power transmitter, noise immunity,

                        IRIDIUM (satellite communications)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        power supply,

                        be sure to use FREE salt water, and (or) a thermocouple (temperature difference, and (or) OSMOS
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        submarine sound communication system,

                        sonar-now even a rubber boat (in my opinion) is equipped with an echo sounder
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        throw iPhone 5G into the water every hour)))

                        do not exaggerate, later, since it’s purely unified, and do not care about glamor, one performance by Steve Jobs (the dead woman) and his trade Name in Iphone5 is 50% (or more) of its value
                        and what is (for strategic security) $ 100-300 x number of nuclear submarines (on the database) x 30 minutes?
                        http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?source=EPZ&

                        notificationId = 7226765


                        http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?source=EPZ&

                        notificationId = 7226753




                        Well, in principle, the price tag (per piece) here
                        http://www.glockmeister.com/GLOCK-17-Gen-4/productinfo/G17GEN4/
                        ================================
                        I do not really understand how the RETAIL PRICE in 549D is obtained. The special wholesale price for the RF Ministry of Defense is 5 EUR ??????????

                        laughter
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        how much did the mini-robot "Minerva", the Hayabusa probe cost?

                        Are you kidding? I can't even repeat this phrase ... not that "remember" ..
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1. this will violate the stealth of deployment of submarines

                        Well does not violate the secrecy of the AUG?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2. small size and life cycle of these devices

                        Well, ZhCI, then you dragged in vain, the operating time and ZhCI are different things.
                        not right (about small things), the voyager "lives" in extreme conditions for more than 30 years.
                        Here it is necessary - 1,2 days (the nuclear submarine "left" a long time ago), the fishing schooner - caught
                      4. Santa Fe
                        10 December 2013 18: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Postman
                        GSM, 3G

                        communication range - kilometer
                        Quote: Postman
                        IRIDIUM (satellite communications)

                        375 gram brick
                        add hydroacoustics to it
                        as well as a self-destruction system
                        all in a waterproof / unsinkable hull that will have to float from 100 meter depth
                        Quote: Postman
                        100-300 $ x number of submarines (on the database) x 30 minutes?

                        100-day combat patrol - throw out 1,5 million bucks.
                        4800 bowling balls)))) the whole compartment)))

                        How to throw Samsung Galaxy every 0,5 hours into the water - isn’t it easier to work on creating a laser communication system?
                        Quote: Postman
                        sonar-now even a rubber boat (in my opinion) is equipped with an echo sounder

                        range of their action? In your case, the boat will be removed for 10 miles

                        you have every gram count. and don't forget to add this to your system account
                        Quote: Postman
                        Are you kidding? I can't even repeat this phrase ... not that "remember" ..

                        joker

                        $ 1 000 000.
                        Quote: Postman
                        Well does not violate the secrecy of the AUG?

                        Does the AUG have any secrecy?
                        Elephant in a china shop
                        Quote: Postman
                        a voyager "lives" in extreme conditions for more than 30 years.

                        so he was worth a billiard
                        Quote: Postman
                        Here it is necessary - 1,2 days (the nuclear submarine "left" a long time ago), the fishing schooner - caught

                        Iridium has a standby time of 30 hour max. But a significant part of the energy will already be spent on the reception / transmission + sonar

                        It is easy to make an approximation for the system proposed by you
                      5. postman
                        postman 10 December 2013 19: 12
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        communication range - kilometer

                        we don’t understand each other ... it seems.
                        I AM ABOUT DIMENSIONS !!! And stuffing and about functionality (I use a laptop ONLY for the Bank-client today, and then BK-IOS-7 doesn’t support it) I don’t know how you have got my GSM phone since 1993
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        375 gram brick

                        1988 machine !! 25 years have passed, REMEMBER PS and laptop, remember the first navigation, Pfirst satellite finally and five CubeSat microsatellites finally
                        http://techlenta.ru/uploads/posts/2012-10/1349094704_760704948.jpg
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        100-day combat patrol - throw out 1,5 million bucks.

                        in "peacetime" time, 1 or 2 a day is enough, but what a "Caribbean crisis"! Then it's another matter
                        (BELIEVE ME WILL BE, or someone already has)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        range of their action? In your case, the boat will be removed for 10 miles

                        Will it be 100 miles?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        you have every gram count. and don't forget to add this to your system account

                        we are not in space.
                        tons is 1
                        1 Ballast tanks
                        2 Auxiliary ballast tanks

                        then water
                        then (when replenishing) bots again
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        $ 1 000 000.

                        not seriously against the background of 5000EUR for a pistol (with its retail value less than $ 500)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Elephant in a china shop

                        Find her in the Pacific! ?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        so he was worth a billiard

                        when it was?????
                        When I "started" kakany pravets (PC Bulgarian) cost 1 room apartment or VAZ 2109
                        And?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Iridium has a standby time of 30 hours max

                        November 1988, XNUMX
                        Was alkaline? Li-Po were?
                        I wrote to you: "there is a FREE ELECTROLYTE (OR CHEMICAL COMPOUND) under your feet" - salty water.
                        WE (the bots) are not in the air THEY (the bots) in sea water are practically UNLIMITED.
                        LADA! I DO NOT LIKE?
                        OKY-PENDULUM (moving in the gravitational field, relative to the center of the gravitational field) power generator!
                        ?
                        In Okiyan there is no calm, smooth, ALL time wave.
                        Up and down in the gravitational field (with a grave amplitude)

                        I re Iridium reload
  • Santa Fe
    9 December 2013 18: 58
    +1
    All the methods you have listed, Herr Postman, are the choice of the best of 8 evils. All methods are rotten.
    Quote: Postman
    The main coastal DCs have ADD transmitters (3-30 kHz), which provide communication with submarines at a distance of up to 16 thousand km.

    in the water position, no problem
    Quote: Postman
    .VHF transmissions (surface or periscope reception) are carried out within. line of sight or through the Flitsatcom satellite system (range 225-400 MHz), which was replaced by the Lisat system in the second half of the 80s.

    in the surface position (or with a retractable antenna or buoy), no problem

    but that's not the problem
    Quote: Postman
    4. The reserve ADD communications system, created back in the 60, was deployed on relay aircraft (the EU-130Q will be replaced by new aircraft - E-6А), which received the name TAKAMO.

    At lunch, a hundred years. E-6 "Mercury", pictured, - based on Boeing-707
    The method is too complicated and unreliable
    Quote: Postman
    5. A project for a VLF communication system with a total value of 230 million dollars (received the name ELF - Extremely Low Frequency)

    Small width of the information transmission channel - you have to pop up and hear satellite communications
    Quote: Postman
    6: A blue-green laser project (0,42-0,53 μm) that overcomes the aquatic environment with the least loss and penetrates to a depth of 300 m.

    Project

    The problem of a reliable and efficient communication system with submarines at depth is NOT SOLVED so far
    1. postman
      postman 9 December 2013 19: 22
      +1
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      . All methods are rotten.

      They work, the problem of the communication of radioactive substances (EMP) through the water column is not as tragic as you imagine
      READ ABOUT WORKS ON THE TOPIC: RADIO THROUGH THE EARTH SURFACE (PB through the thickness of the earth's surface).
      There this problem is affected.
      The point is not in principled possibility, but "There is no stability"

      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      The method is too complicated and unreliable

      but is he there?
      While on duty in the air, a repeater aircraft flies in a predetermined area at an altitude of about 8000 m at a speed of 330-500 km / h in a circle with a radius of 185 km with an antiaircraft gun issued by the superlighter. In this mode, the towed antenna sags for 1500 m and occupies a position close to vertical. According to the results of many years of using the TAKAMO system, as the Western press notes, their transmissions are received by submarines when the antenna is deepened to 15 m and removed from the aircraft mainly at relatively short distances, but possibly up to 10 thousand km.
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Small channel width

      Navy command believes that this system will be auxiliary, its purpose is to warn the boat about the need to swim up and receive a message by other means of communication.
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      NOT SOLVED so far

      Believe me-SOLVE
      1. Santa Fe
        9 December 2013 20: 16
        0
        Quote: Postman
        RADIO COMMUNICATION THROUGH EARTH SURFACE

        mmm ... again ELF?
        Quote: Postman
        While on duty in the air, a repeater aircraft flies in a given area at an altitude of about 8000 m at a speed of 330-500 km / h in a circle with a radius of 185km with an antenna released

        For @@ there is an assistant
        It’s so that the positions of all SSBNs will burn and unmask

        Despite the fact that the problem of reliable communication with the submerged boat is still not solved, and the aircraft can be easily destroyed. TAKAMO is just a backup system
        Quote: Postman
        The Navy command believes that this system will be auxiliary, its purpose is to warn the boat about the need to sail up and receive a message by other means of communication.

        What are we talking about
        Ascent leads to a loss of stealth
        Quote: Postman
        Believe me-DECIDE

        There is no doubt about that. The main thing is to decide BEFORE you need to give a signal (doomsday)

        Mr. postman, check this out please
        http://topwar.ru/31764-kak-svyazatsya-s-podvodnoy-lodkoy.html
        1. postman
          postman 9 December 2013 20: 38
          0
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Ascent leads to a loss of stealth

          Somebody(we will not say who, although it was Kaptsov), recently brought a snapshot of the globe (the Pacific), and wrote: here is T.O. , here is AUG (full) - TRY IT TO FIND IT !!!! ???
          (take a bite, "I'm amazed at the scale myself")
          AUG - not to find, but the periscope with the antenna (or plate) VHF- FIND?

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          It’s so that the positions of all SSBNs will burn and unmask

          there is such a problem

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Mr. postman, check this out please
          http://topwar.ru/31764-kak-svyazatsya-s-podvodnoy-lodkoy.html

          and I read, and even prepared for you an answer, on the basis of what I mentioned ...
          Only here is not a task, I clicked "add", I lit up "Mr. Postman You entered too long a comment"

          (I essno did not copy the answer, according to my own oslism)

          it was too lazy to restore, and then the torment was tortured
          1. Santa Fe
            9 December 2013 21: 30
            0
            Quote: Postman
            Someone (let’s not say who, although it was Kaptsov), recently brought a snapshot of the globe (the Pacific Ocean), and wrote: here is T.O. , here is AUG (full) - TRY IT TO FIND IT !!!! ???

            I remember the picture. About Aug there was no question
            Quote: Postman
            "Mr. Postman You entered too long a comment" lit up

            Correct! I believe it is necessary to limit the length of comments on the Russian-language Internet to two words: "glory to the gdp!" So that it was discouraging for different postmen to plot and embarrass the Russian people with abstruse speeches about Western technologies (ugh!)
            Quote: Postman
            AUG - not to find, but the periscope with the antenna (or plate) VHF- FIND?

            If you know where to look.
            1. postman
              postman 9 December 2013 22: 19
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              I remember the picture. About Aug there was no question

              well, what was there? aircraft carrier? destroyer?
              NOT the essence
              "EASY" (relatively) to detect a periscope (snorkel) of a submarine pursuing a convoy in the North Atlantic (or off the coast of Britain), especially when radars appeared

              But the antenna of narrowly targeted communication of the nuclear submarine (SSBN) HZ knows somewhere (in the combat duty zone) ...
              Moreover, if the duration of reception / transmission of a second
              DOUBT
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              I think it is necessary to limit the length of the comment

              I can’t live without bricks! I am seriously injured during the Aperation!

              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              If you know where to look.

              "with the admission of Borey-class strategic nuclear submarines to the combat-ready forces of the Russian Navy, missile submarines will not only continue to patrol in Arctic, Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, but also resume combat missions in those areas of the oceans, where back in the late 90s of the last century the "strategists" of the Soviet Navy regularly operated and where they ceased to appear with the collapse of the USSR ".
              Well these are not the (prepared) launch points of the RT-2PM Topol regiment, and not the regiment itself and all the rest




              ?
              ================
  • Old skeptic
    Old skeptic 9 December 2013 18: 51
    -1
    Quote: Beck
    And the ability to replenish ammunition at the base is negligible. It is possible that not only the base, but the country itself will be gone. There will be nowhere to swim.

    And no one can swim. After full salvo and flooding all rocket mines, the boat is likely to sink. Yes, and of course there is no sense.
    1. dzvero
      dzvero 9 December 2013 21: 25
      +2
      Quote: Old Skeptic
      And no one can swim. After a full salvo and flooding of all missile silos, the boat is likely to sink. Yes, and of course there is no sense.

      it will drown right away ... twice the Soviet and Russian missile carriers successfully shot out the full missile ammunition and returned to the base.
      1. Old skeptic
        Old skeptic 9 December 2013 21: 57
        -1
        A full salvo NOBODY GAVE.
        Our record, in a salvo four missiles (I could be wrong +/-), the Americans have a maximum of two.
        1. Santa Fe
          9 December 2013 22: 02
          +3
          Quote: Old Skeptic
          A full salvo NOBODY GAVE.

          Operation Hippo

          http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%E5%E3%E5%EC%EE%F2_(%EE%EF%E5%F0%E0%F6%E8%FF)
          1. dzvero
            dzvero 9 December 2013 22: 19
            0
            Thanks for the title. I remembered reading about UTB on topvar:
            http://topwar.ru/170-operaciya-begemot.html
            I was mistaken in counting the first experience (eight missiles) for a full salvo.
            Video topic:
            http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v747251eac5
          2. Old skeptic
            Old skeptic 9 December 2013 22: 57
            +1
            To blame. Correct hi
          3. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 9 December 2013 23: 15
            +2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Operation Hippo

            There is a video of the operation "Behemoth"
  • coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 10 December 2013 23: 24
    0
    Comments class! Thank you guys. Especially a bell with a bell ringer. laughing