Military Review

Very different professionals

53
Very different professionalsUkraine and Kazakhstan almost simultaneously announced their refusal of conscription and the transition to a contract army. Of course, our numerous adherents of the “professional army” once again rejoiced at the “progressiveness” of their neighbors, while emphasizing our wretchedness and weakness.


In fact, it has been said and written many times that none of the ways of recruitment have any progressiveness, nor perplexity, or wretchedness. It is unlikely that anyone will be able to prove that Burkina Faso, Zimbabwe, Papua New Guinea, Gambia (they have “professional” armies) are more developed and progressive countries than Norway, Finland, South Korea, Switzerland (they have armies conscription). Moreover, in the past two years, the Austrians and the Swiss in national referendums spoke in favor of maintaining the draft, and in Norway even women were called upon. Manning method is actually determined by the tasks facing the sun, and nothing more. But since it is precisely in this issue that the military and civilians are in the greatest contact, political importance is often attached to manning, which can cause direct harm to the interests of the Armed Forces and, consequently, to the country as a whole.

It is clear that the Armed Forces of each country solve their own problems, that is, each case is individual. In particular, individual cases of Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

FROM LEADERS TO OUTSIDERS

If we compare the starting conditions with the result, then neither Tajikistan, nor Kyrgyzstan, nor Moldova, namely Ukraine is the most failed of all 15 states that have emerged in the place of the USSR.

She simply had to become the most successful of the former Soviet republics, but in reality she now has a good chance to drop out of the top ten in terms of development among 15 members of the former “family of fraternal peoples”.

In particular, this applies to military construction. At the beginning of 1992, the country received by far the best part of the USSR Armed Forces. Since then, the Ukrainian army has been in a state of "free fall", turning into a collapse. Suffice it to say that for the entire period of independence, she did not receive new equipment (except 10 tanks T-84). Given that the country has got more than 700 enterprises of the Soviet military-industrial complex, this situation is simply prohibitive. Due to the lack of domestic orders, even those enterprises of the military-industrial complex, which so far have managed to survive due to export, are beginning to experience big problems. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are approximately in the state in which the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation were from the mid-90s to the middle of the zero years - lack of money and almost complete lack of combat training.

To this is added the fact that the army, to put it mildly, is unpopular in Ukrainian society. Therefore, the abolition of conscription is first and foremost a political move by Viktor Yanukovych before the presidential election, which will take place at the beginning of 2015. Viktor Fedorovich cannot boast successes in the economy and social sphere, so at least the call was canceled.

As for the question of the practical feasibility of abolishing the draft, the Ukrainian leadership is pointless to ask him - it has no idea why the country needs the army, and therefore does not know which way of recruitment suits it best.

The draft army is necessary for the state if there is a serious threat of external aggression for it. In the event of such aggression, the “professional” army instantly collapses due to lack of motivation — it’s not the money to fight, but only a conscript army can be for their homeland. But, first, the population of Ukraine has a huge problem with national identification and, therefore, with motivation, therefore it is difficult to expect a sharp desire from conscripts to shed blood for the country. Secondly, Ukraine’s aggression is nowhere to be expected.

True, Western neighbors (Hungary and Romania) are leading aggression against Ukraine today: they distribute their passports to citizens of Ukraine living in territories that previously belonged to these countries. Citizens of “Square” take other people's passports with pleasure. To fight this military means is useless. Of course, you can theoretically imagine how the neighbors will go to war against Ukraine in order to protect their new citizens, but theoretically. The ability of the Romanians to war has long passed on the category of satire and humor. In addition, the Romanian Armed Forces are also unique in the extreme archaic nature of technology. Until now, all their 853 tanks are T-55 and their local modifications, all 98 combat aircraft are MiG-21. A small number of T-72 and MiG-29, obtained from the USSR at the end of 80-x, the Romanians quickly and successfully ditched to complete non-recoverability.

The situation in the Hungarian Armed Forces is not much better. Today only 150 T-72 tanks (of which 120 are in storage) and 14 Swedish Grippen fighters are on their arms. The number of personnel reduced to 22 thousand. Accordingly, it is difficult to expect aggression from Romania and Hungary, the development trajectory of their armed forces is approximately the same as that of the Ukrainian armed forces - confidently down.

No less difficult to imagine Turkish aggression against Ukraine. Of course, the Turkish Armed Forces are much stronger than the Ukrainian ones, but the Black Sea is a very serious water barrier. In addition, for such aggression there are no clear goals, the problem of the Crimean Tatars for Ankara is not something that is not on the first, but not even on the 20-th place in the list of its foreign policy priorities.

As for Russia, Ukraine is not capable of resisting it in all respects. Today, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have received a very significant superiority over the quantity and quality of equipment and level of combat training over the Armed Forces of Ukraine. But the main thing is not even in this, but in the fact that for a significant part of the population of Ukraine “Russia” is the “own” country.

WHAT ARMY NEEDS KIEV

Accordingly, it makes no sense for Ukraine to have a conscript army, for which there is still no money. On the "professional", however, they are all the more absent, because such is much more expensive, whatever her adherents lied about on this matter. But in the case of Ukraine, this factor will not become a serious problem. It is precisely because the army is not needed that no one will be frightened by a significant reduction in its size or the lumpenization of personnel. The cost of maintaining personnel can hardly be increased, and the number of equipment can be further reduced, all the more so since it fails so quickly due to the exhaustion of the resource.

In addition, we must remember that the "professional" army is not suitable for protecting the country from external aggression, but it is very convenient for police operations. Its main task will be the removal of the remnants of Ukrainian liberalism. Thanks to a further radical reduction in the number of personnel and equipment, there will be enough money for its maintenance. The money allowance of the Ukrainian contractor is several times lower than that of his Russian counterpart, but then the standard of living in the country is also lower.

Moreover, Kiev will have the opportunity to bring the army to partial self-sufficiency, using it in the very fashionable UN peacekeeping operations and NATO in Africa and Asia. The current peacekeeping contingents almost always turn out to be completely incapacitated, because Western peacekeepers do not want to fight, and African and Asian cannot. The use of the Ukrainian army is ideal. On the one hand, its soldiers, unlike the "real" Europeans, do not feel sorry for anyone, on the other - they still have a higher level of training than most armies of developing countries (at least African). UN and NATO pay pretty well for such operations. At the same time, Ukrainian “pros” will gain experience in dealing with civilians and rebel groups, which can be useful in their own country.

And even the change of power in Ukraine will change little. Firstly, there is no reason to think that the new government will be better. Secondly, the economic situation is so bad that it will have to be corrected for many years. Thirdly, and most importantly, the internal division of Ukraine is so strong that it will be extremely difficult to solve the problem of identity in the foreseeable future. And this in itself makes military construction difficult. To set tasks for an army, one must at least understand which country this army belongs to. In Ukraine, this issue is not resolved and the prospects for its solution are not visible.

Thus, the abolition of the call can be considered a logical solution for the current Ukrainian leadership. Only there is absolutely nothing to envy. Ukraine for us is a wonderful example of how not to do it.

MILITARY REFORMS IN THE CENTER OF EURASIA

With Kazakhstan, everything is much more complicated. It is just - an accomplished state, for the post-Soviet period, which far surpassed Ukraine in terms of development. Of course, this also applies to the field of military construction. The leadership of the country pays great attention to the development of the Armed Forces. Astana seeks to not depend on anyone too much in the development of the Armed Forces, trying to import weapons and equipment from different countries, as well as create their own military-industrial complex (from the former Soviet country received almost nothing). Moreover, technologically Kazakhstan is also tied to different countries.

Kazakhstan will organize (or has already begun) the production of Turkish “Cobra” armored cars, European EC-145 multi-purpose helicopters. Eight European C-295 transport aircraft were purchased instead of the outdated An-26. In service there are American "Hummers" and British "Land Rovers". Kazakhstan is modernizing its Su-27 in Belarus, and from there it receives automated control systems for various purposes. Nevertheless, for the time being, a predominant orientation towards Russia remains. In particular, Kazakhstan is now the exclusive owner of the Terminator BMPT.

Kazakhstan became, apparently, the first post-Soviet country where the formation of a professional sergeant corps, the only truly effective means of fighting hazing, began. Here, the military police, which protects all the main military objects and law and order in the units, has been created and successfully functions for a long time. Sun sharply reduced the number of personnel, hired contractors and improved conditions of service. And they achieved that the call became actually competitive. Every draft campaign in local military registration and enlistment offices can be observed sobbing recruits and their parents: the guy was not called! For him, it is an eternal shame and loss of rights.

Now there will be no one to cry. How this is correct is an extremely difficult question. The fact is that the geopolitical position of Kazakhstan and, accordingly, the set of potential opponents is peculiar.

Kazakhstan is more Europeanized and economically more prosperous than its southern neighbors. In addition, there is a much higher proportion of the Slavic population, and the Kazakhs themselves are less Islamized than residents of other Central Asian countries. Nevertheless, a certain “creeping” Islamization does occur. This process can be significantly accelerated after the withdrawal of US and NATO troops from Afghanistan, after which the probability of the Taliban expansion to the north will be high. In this case, the armed forces of Kazakhstan and Russia should become the main obstacle for this expansion, trying to stop it in the territories of Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. For such operations, the contract army is really better than a draft. It is also more suitable for UN peacekeeping operations, in which Astana is showing significant interest.

The version of the war between Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan seems frankly surrealistic, but in Astana it is taken seriously. The demographic potential of Uzbekistan is almost twice as high as that of Kazakhstan, and the social tension in the neighboring country is great. For totalitarian regimes (such as the regime of Islam Karimov) in some cases external aggression turns out to be a more preferable option than civil war. If Islamists come to power in Uzbekistan (which is by no means impossible), war becomes almost inevitable.

On the other hand, the current Uzbek army is very similar to the Ukrainian one. For the entire post-Soviet period, she did not receive any new technology. At the same time, Uzbekistan received far less equipment from the USSR than Ukraine, and it is serviced even worse than in Ukraine, therefore it fails faster. Consequently, in the variant of the classic war “army against army”, the Uzbek army the further, the less dangerous for Kazakhstan, and if Uzbekistan Islamizes, the army is likely to disintegrate completely, and fighting the terrorist groups, as in the case of the Taliban, Kazakhstan is easier will lead by contract forces.

As for China, for him Kazakhstan is an ideal direction of expansion, since it has a very large territory with a small population, as well as a huge amount of natural resources. In addition, taking control of Kazakhstan, Beijing puts the geopolitical "mate" Moscow. At the same time, it is clear that they will not be able to provide serious resistance to the PLA of the Armed Forces of Kazakhstan alone, regardless of how they are completed: China is fully capable of mobilizing an army that will be two to three times the largest population of Kazakhstan in terms of personnel. And hope Astana will have only the help from Russia.

So, most likely, the Kazakh leadership also behaved logically - it does not have much sense to keep the draft army. But this is no example for us, because we have other geopolitical conditions.
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  1. Captain Vrungel
    Captain Vrungel 7 December 2013 17: 01
    +5
    The army is contracted. But, the call is not canceled. Domestic soldiers will be called up for military service.
    1. alone
      alone 7 December 2013 17: 09
      +4
      Ukraine and Kazakhstan are not going to fight with someone. But maintaining a conscript army requires finances. That's why they are moving into a contractual basis.

      P.S. It remains to wish both good luck. hi
      1. subsprite
        subsprite 7 December 2013 18: 43
        11
        Quote: lonely
        Ukraine and Kazakhstan are not going to fight with someone. But maintaining a conscript army requires finances. That's why they are moving into a contractual basis.

        "A people who do not want to feed their army will soon be forced to feed someone else's." - Napoleon Bonapard

        P.S. I would see how the Euro Maidan geyropa organized and climbed into the internal affairs of Ukraine, if it had a powerful modern army, and even with Rossiska behind.
        1. alone
          alone 7 December 2013 19: 53
          0
          Quote: subsprite
          "A people who do not want to feed their army will soon be forced to feed someone else's." - Napoleon Bonapard

          P.S. I would see how the Euro Maidan geyropa organized and climbed into the internal affairs of Ukraine, if it had a powerful modern army, and even with Rossiska behind.


          Maybe all the same Bonaparte, not Bonapard!

          According to the constitution, the Armed Forces cannot be used against their people, for this there are Internal troops and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. If, for example, even to think about what is possible in Ukraine, do you think a powerful army would go to crush its tanks? Because of whom to stain the hands of the blood of its people Yanukovych? More than half of those who rally in Kiev gathered there not because they are interested in the EU or another alliance, but because those in power have bothered the people with their unscrupulousness and theft. It took only a year for the president’s son to become an oligarch!
          Do you think this is normal?
          1. Mikhail m
            Mikhail m 7 December 2013 21: 26
            11
            Maybe, all the same, Bonaparte, and not Bonaparte, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and not the Ministry of Internal Affairs?
        2. DPN
          DPN 7 December 2013 20: 31
          +2
          Quote: subsprite
          Yes, and with Rossiska behind.


          In general, western Ukraine doesn’t need such a back. As long as the citizens of former Bandera work in Kiev, they really need the back of the west. or rather NATO.
        3. Tambov we ...
          Tambov we ... 7 December 2013 22: 43
          +4
          Lord, did you learn Russian? Bonaparte D. I don’t believe that the letters "d" and "t" are next to each other on the keyboard, like, my finger drove in the wrong place. After all, you are not Catherine the Great (ethnic German), with her famous "istche".
          1. rolik
            rolik 7 December 2013 23: 20
            +4
            Quote: We are from Tambov ...
            Lord, did you learn Russian? Bonapar

            This is a slightly different topic, not a discussion of spelling. I, too, recently on a working, computer began to sink the letter "l". Not printed until you use your finger to burn harder. Say Nyasyalnik, but he does not react, you bastard, so I am suffering. I would have brought my Klava from home, they would not let the security guard pass))))))
            And then begins ...... the letter is not the one driven in, what a grief.
        4. irongun
          irongun 8 December 2013 13: 53
          +3
          Quote: subsprite
          Yes, and with Rossiska behind.

          What kind of army is cunning, Russian-sausage? Every day - sausages?
          1. Nick
            Nick 8 December 2013 22: 00
            +1
            Quote: irongun
            What kind of army is cunning, Russian-sausage? Every day - sausages?

            SMILE ... laughing
      2. Lesnik
        Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 37
        +1
        IMHO ... The emergence of a threat to the territorial integrity of the state is a matter of three months, there would be a reason! And Ukraine has these reasons above the roof.
        And the army of Ukraine in its current state (demoralized, understaffed, corrupt, unprepared, untrained, etc., etc.) is simply not able to adequately respond to threats, and this state will NOT DEPEND in any way whether it will be contractual or recruiting .. ... And it depends on the overseas friends whom she DOESN'T NEED in any condition.
      3. nerd.su
        nerd.su 8 December 2013 22: 50
        0
        Quote: lonely
        Ukraine and Kazakhstan are not going to fight with someone. But maintaining a conscript army requires finances. That's why they are moving into a contractual basis.

        And what, the contract army of finance does not require? laughing
    2. Su24
      Su24 8 December 2013 07: 37
      +5
      In addition, taking control of Kazakhstan, Beijing puts a geopolitical “mate” in Moscow. At the same time, it is clear that Kazakhstan’s PLA alone will not be able to provide serious resistance regardless of how they are equipped: China is quite capable of mobilizing an army, which in terms of personnel will be two to three times the total population of Kazakhstan.


      I thought it was strange. But it turned out - the author of the article Khramchikhin. Well, yes, how can it be possible to not insert a passage about into the text, that the Chinese will attack tomorrow morning. I don’t give a damn about the Tien Shan mountains, I don’t give a damn that western China is a desert, that all Kazakhstan’s resources are on the opposite side from China ... It’ll attack! By virtue of, apparently, the genetic law. Khramchikhin knows for sure!
      1. The comment was deleted.
  2. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 7 December 2013 17: 17
    19
    From the very beginning I stopped reading as soon as the author stated that the army of the contract army is fighting for money, and in case of war it will be scattered. In this case, our entire officer corps is now worthless military personnel, and in the event of war, it is they who, according to the author, will be the first to flee the battlefield. I could not imagine greater absurdity. It has been written a million times that no one will be treated for someone who has completed 1 chicken of the medical institute. It was also explained a million times that a professional army is needed, I note (not a contract one, for some reason the word contract most often causes confusion, but reservists and militias are also needed. For this, the subject of military training must be introduced again in all schools and universities (initial military training , for those who do not remember).
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. aviamed90
      aviamed90 7 December 2013 17: 30
      +4
      vladsolo56

      I agree.

      In addition, RA officers, warrant officers and over-conscripts have served under the contract since the 90's.
      In parallel, there is a call for soldiers and sergeants.
      And it is right. Because the army needs a mobilization reserve for wartime.

      Besides, who can say that a Soviet or Russian officer is not a professional? Their training is no worse, if not better, than that of the so-called American "professionals." It is a fact.

      So the concepts of "contract" and "professional" should not be confused.

      It's like in hockey: Canadians are professionals, and ours are amateurs, or what ?.
      1. Tambov we ...
        Tambov we ... 7 December 2013 23: 09
        +1
        "Their training is no worse, if not better."

        Much better, an order of magnitude. And further. Slavic mentality (oh, I don't like this non-Russian word - "mentality", in Russian - a state of mind. And try to take this soul on the satanic horns!)
    3. Stinger
      Stinger 7 December 2013 18: 19
      +2
      It is useless to explain. The best example of confusing the concepts of contractor and professional is Serdyukov.
    4. My address
      My address 7 December 2013 18: 27
      +6
      vladsolo56.
      Vladimir!
      This time I do not quite agree with you.
      Officers choose service from a young age and as a profession. Contractors are mainly for the money. Yes, and a considerable reserve is needed. Now, if you give the opportunity and help grow up the career ladder ... I believe that the best commander is one who has left the ranks, and the best leader is one who has left the workers. I was lucky to start as a worker.
      My opinion is that at least half the call. Serve at least one and a half years. I know that in the 70's for a year a tanker at the T-62 could only be trained from a graduate of a technical school. Now the guys are smarter (it’s bad that they are not accustomed to work and patriotism), but the technique is more complicated. Who served a bunch of benefits for studying, getting a job, family life.
      hi
      1. vladsolo56
        vladsolo56 7 December 2013 18: 56
        +4
        Still, you did not understand me, I did not mean a contract army, but a professional one. By the way, when the contentment of the officers turned out to be very small, there were disastrously few willing to serve, so the officers also serve for money, oddly enough. Private, just like an officer, chooses the military profession, this is the first call is essentially useless detachment of young people from work. In order for there to be a reserve, it is not necessary to call everyone into the army, drag the line to the place of service, and keep them in garrisons. In order to have a reserve, it is necessary to have simply military training centers at the place of residence, for example, in each regional center. In these centers, and carry out training of reservists, and not once a year or two, but rather two weeks every three years. And with joint exercises about once every five years.
        1. erg
          erg 7 December 2013 22: 59
          +3
          I’ll try to clarify the term contractor, as I see that not everyone understands its essence. The term contract appeared with us in the 90s, when fixed-term employment contracts began to be widely applied. Then we still lived according to the Soviet Labor Code (Labor Code), where this type of conclusion of an employment contract was not considered. Based on the Western model, the term contract was introduced, which began to be widely used, including in law enforcement agencies. Since they began to take on service for a short time and subsequently extended it if necessary. (in Soviet times, this was only practiced for over-conscripts). With the adoption of the new labor code, we finally decided on the terminology - the term contract is no longer used, it is called a labor agreement, and it can be urgent, that is, concluded for a certain period and unlimited - without specifying a term. Upon entering the service everyone concludes a fixed-term contract, which at the end can become unlimited. The term contract is used out of habit, and is not legally correct since the employment and dismissal from it takes place according to the norms of the labor code. Thus - the term contractor means a person who voluntarily came to the service and entered into an employment contract. In other words, who chose to serve in the army, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, etc. their profession. Therefore, the term professional is applicable to such a person, at least in the sense that a person has chosen to serve in the army as his profession. In general, it’s right to speak about all those who are in active service — the personnel (of two types: those called up for service by force of law for a certain period of time and who have chosen to serve as their profession).
        2. kreid2
          kreid2 8 December 2013 04: 49
          -5
          100% support.
          It is enough field fees for 1-2 months ....
          By the way, it will be cheaper for the budget and summer cottages to be built
      2. BARKAS
        BARKAS 7 December 2013 19: 01
        +7
        The main problem of our professional army is selection! I read the comments and see all that the supporters that the opponents of the contract army operate, albeit with different but only theories and cliches, I will give a concrete example, our division was formed from conscripts and contract soldiers. The 1st battery was the best in training, it consisted almost entirely of conscripts, but especially " distinguished "The 3rd battery, which consisted just of contract soldiers during a business trip to Chechnya, how these" professionals "never hit their own people, I still don't understand, I was just lucky, probably. In short, a person who goes to the army just because he was not in demand or simply does not know how or does not want to work in civilian life in the army is not needed! The task of attracting intelligent, competent and motivated people to all branches of the army and not only to special forces, and this will be very difficult to do.
        1. vladsolo56
          vladsolo56 8 December 2013 07: 22
          0
          Well, firstly, under the contract they took only those who have already served urgent. Especially when there were fighting in Chechnya. Then essentially you are contradicting yourself. In addition, no one here claimed that it would be hired to recruit contractors. As in any other profession, there must be a selection, and even more thorough than in some other professions. Therefore, your example is not relevant. And the last person who came to serve in the army is not immediately a professional soldier, he still has to become one, how much time will be required for this, as I understand it, depends on the type of service.
    5. aksakal
      aksakal 7 December 2013 18: 54
      +6
      Quote: vladsolo56
      From the very beginning I stopped reading as soon as the author stated that the army of the contract army is fighting for money, and in case of war it will be scattered. In this case, our entire officer corps is now worthless military personnel, and in the event of war, it is they who, according to the author, will be the first to flee the battlefield. I could not imagine greater absurdity. It has been written a million times that no one will be treated for someone who has completed 1 chicken of the medical institute. It was also explained a million times that a professional army is needed, I note (not a contract one, for some reason the word contract most often causes confusion, but reservists and militias are also needed. For this, the subject of military training must be introduced again in all schools and universities (initial military training , for those who do not remember).
      - I agree. A small amendment: where complex military equipment prevails, there must be completely professionals. In fact, the Air Force - there are almost all professionals, because letting a "spirit" ("woodpecker", here are options) to a fighter is something uncomfortable from such stupidity. I am convinced that tankers must be professionals. We will put the same "woodpecker spirits" at the wheel of the "Armata" - that means we will destroy expensive new tanks. What for? It will definitely work out - "the miser pays twice!" I saved on professionals in the tank troops - get an increased expense on the restoration of this equipment + reduced combat readiness of the unit due to the broken and being repaired military equipment. Infantry (that is, motorized riflemen), paratroopers, guard troops, air defense troops (not in all specialties), communications (again, not in all specialties), artillery - there are many specialties where it is more expedient to keep recruits. In my opinion, such an army will be called a mixed or combined type.
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 7 December 2013 20: 24
        +5
        Yes, Aksakal motor rifles are right here; A year of service is enough to learn how to shoot, deploy and collapse the system, etc. (if you do not occupy the recruits with different households and other jobs, and only teach combat and tactical training), and put professionals in the equipment. Well, it’s good for the guys to smell the army’s order for self-affirmation and mumble. so I think in vain completely abandon the call. (two days ago I drove past the military registration and enlistment office there, it seems, they sent a call, maybe the last call was)
  3. FormerMariman
    FormerMariman 7 December 2013 17: 17
    +1
    Already, China is offering Kyrgyz customs. union. it is only for seeding appetite.
  4. avg
    avg 7 December 2013 17: 22
    +8
    The picking should be mixed. Professionals discourage the adversary from holding the Blitzkrieg and occupy the most difficult and responsible positions, while former conscripts form a reserve for deployment in the event of a military threat. good
  5. Guun
    Guun 7 December 2013 17: 39
    +2
    The contract army is better suited for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan. Our army is not weak, but there are also a few minuses. After the incident with conscripts (sorry for the guys and their parents), the question about the contract army was quickly taken and made; against the bandit formations, the contract soldiers did the very thing - they knew where you were going, not whine and forward. And we’ll save a lot of money.
    1. nerd.su
      nerd.su 8 December 2013 23: 02
      0
      Quote: Guun
      And we’ll save a lot of money.

      Will you save money again with a professional army? What are you, in Kazakhstan, transferring professionals to pasture? Got a gun, get your salary yourself? Otherwise, how can one explain that maintaining a professional is cheaper than keeping a conscript?
  6. Hauptam
    Hauptam 7 December 2013 17: 59
    11
    Canceling the call in peacetime, depriving yourself of a mobilization reserve in the military. (Axiom)
    1. S-200
      S-200 7 December 2013 20: 26
      -4
      Quote: Hauptam
      Canceling the call in peacetime, depriving yourself of a mobilization reserve in the military. (Axiom)

      it is - WRONG!
      mobile reserve is formed from:
      1. earlier served proffi ... up to 5? years
      2. civilians who have not previously served and called up - short-term training and cannon fodder with a professional team skeleton - ready
      We do not forget that in the Second World War the formation of Siberian rifle divisions in the rear took place mainly from draftees who had never served in the army, and just like in Germany in the last months of the war, a land assault was formed from civilian ...
      There would be people, and, it doesn’t matter, men or women (Israel) ... all cannon fodder!
  7. rocketman
    rocketman 7 December 2013 18: 10
    0
    I’ve already read an article somewhere, reprint ...
    You will laugh, but Ukraine is probably the only country in the world where the content of one contractor is cheaper than the conscript. Approximately, on 300 hryvnia. So this is not only politics, but also economics! lol
    1. morpex
      morpex 7 December 2013 18: 40
      -1
      Quote: rocketman
      You will laugh, but Ukraine is probably the only country in the world where the content of one contractor is cheaper than the conscript. Approximately, on 300 hryvnia. So this is not only politics, but also economics!

      And can you give more specifics? Figures, facts. Or give a reference .. I believe it with difficulty ...
    2. Lindon
      Lindon 7 December 2013 22: 10
      +4
      Quote: rocketman
      I’ve already read an article somewhere, reprint ...

      I completely agree. Also read word for word copied. They didn’t even bother to redo a little. This is a hodgepodge of 3-4 articles about the armies of Ukraine of Kazakhstan, etc.
      To the minus author.
      1. TRex
        TRex 8 December 2013 11: 52
        0
        Lyndon! Khramchikhin is still an "analyst" ... He takes analyzes without leaving his office, clicking on the keyboard of the PC and fishing out a combined hodgepodge of information. But then such "pearls" appear with profound conclusions ... A person who has not served for a day, having no minimal basic knowledge in military affairs, judges the state and combat readiness of foreign powers, predicts the development of the geopolitical situation from ocean to ocean ...
        He writes: "... and the Kazakhs themselves are less Islamized than the inhabitants of other Central Asian countries." A question to the author of this creation - where is the largest mosque in Central Asia? The answer is in Astana. The question is - on whose money is it built? The answer is Saudi Arabia's money. I attach a photo, I answer for my words.
        1. TRex
          TRex 8 December 2013 11: 58
          0
          Beautiful, of course ... But the Saudis are breaking in here, in the Tatarstan church began to burn. Annoying.
  8. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 7 December 2013 18: 14
    +8
    Swiss traditional neutrality is based on the draft army. This is understood by the inhabitants of the country, therefore, in a referendum they spoke out in favor of maintaining the draft. The American Army is contracted. So what? What successes has she achieved in recent years? And when was the conscription army (Vietnam), was successful? No way. The combat effectiveness of the army depends little on the method of manning. Conscripts of some countries demonstrate high morale. The combat potential of the army depends on the moral state of society, which sends guys to the troops, on centuries-old traditions on the defense of their land, which grandfathers and great-grandfathers pass on to their descendants. And as a conclusion: a society constantly leading internal strife, which is in turmoil, cannot create a combat-ready army both by conscription and contract
  9. vasiliysxx
    vasiliysxx 7 December 2013 19: 24
    +7
    when our guys sob at the military enlistment office, if they didn’t take them into the army, this army will be the most powerful in the world. (served in the beginning of 80)
    1. Tambov we ...
      Tambov we ... 7 December 2013 23: 27
      +2
      And I, here, did not sob near the military registration and enlistment office in the 1980th year. But who dares to call the Soviet Army of that time not quite powerful ???
      1. vasiliysxx
        vasiliysxx 8 December 2013 09: 21
        +1
        well, mowing down from the army in those years soldier
  10. Sinbad
    Sinbad 7 December 2013 19: 43
    +1
    There is a lot of controversy, but what about? The general conscription of a conscript army is an opportunity to create a mobilization reserve from practically the entire male population of draft age, who has at the same time military training. This made sense in the days of large-scale "infantry" and "motorized" wars. The more sophisticated and sophisticated weapons are, the greater the value of professionals, and the less (hopefully) the need for "cannon fodder". The golden mean between the two extremes and depends on the mass of conditions, so there is no single solution for everyone at all times and cannot be.
    1. morpex
      morpex 7 December 2013 21: 14
      -2
      Quote: Sinbad
      The more perfect and more sophisticated the weapons, the greater the value of professionals, and the less (hopefully) the need for "cannon fodder".

      Think correctly. Everything flows, everything changes. Yes, in the SA, remember, they became a real soldier somewhere after a year and a half of service. And now what is the level of technology? And we are all with a saber ... As in the 41m-cavalry tank. Professional army be. And the point. And in Russia and Ukraine. Otherwise, you have to stupidly have to increase the service life ..
      1. nerd.su
        nerd.su 8 December 2013 23: 33
        0
        Quote: morpex
        .And now what is the level of technology? And we are all with a saber ...

        What do we have in service, instead of a Kalashnikov assault rifle, we have plasma annihilators for shooting from which higher education is necessary? Or Armata tanks can not be controlled by current gamers? If the developers do not lie, there the crew is in the capsule, and from there control is possible using monitors, joysticks and buttons. Why extend the service life?
        By the way, who will hold the territory, drones operators or infantry?
  11. воронов
    воронов 7 December 2013 19: 48
    +1
    An exclusively contracted army in Russia will not play the weather, the army needs to be recruited by draft and contract, depending on the current international situation and the political situation, give priority to one or another method of manning.
  12. DPN
    DPN 7 December 2013 20: 09
    +1
    Quote: Captain Vrungel
    Domestic soldiers will be called up for military service.

    Everything is right. People’s unrest and should be dispersed by the people's army, not grateful service.
  13. rocketman
    rocketman 7 December 2013 20: 18
    -2
    Quote: morpex
    And can you give more specifics? Figures, facts. Or give a reference .. I believe it with difficulty ...

    sorry, I can’t. I saw one financial document in the service. People poked fun, but now I remember the topic. The point was that conscripts needed to heat the barracks, wash them in the bathhouse, give out linen and uniforms, feed them, etc. But the contract soldiers do not need it - only a salary of 1500-2000 UAH per month, and that’s all. And they will buy the form themselves.
  14. Ivan Petrovich
    Ivan Petrovich 7 December 2013 20: 26
    0
    I'm for Anschluss 2.0
    only it is unlikely that our government can do this
  15. Alex_Popovson
    Alex_Popovson 7 December 2013 20: 33
    0
    Quote: Ivan Petrovich
    I'm for Anschluss 2.0
    only it is unlikely that our government can do this

    With all the limbs! It is a pity only royal blood will not find gentlemen. In the best traditions of the Third Reich, they would have forced the lap to lick, yeah.
  16. individual
    individual 7 December 2013 21: 05
    +2
    In general, a historical rebus is obtained.
    All Soviet republics, with or without good experience of state building, created their own statehood.
    What can not be said about Ukraine.
    Where did the industrial production go with advanced engineering bookmarks?
    Where is agriculture with the richest land capable of feeding half of Europe?
    The reason is that they live on their own land, and their eyes are turned to the west, and this is a historical mistake that Russia suffered from in the 90s when the thesis was popular: "the west will help us."
    It's time to look at our own hands and decide for ourselves what to do.
  17. andr327
    andr327 7 December 2013 21: 27
    +2
    with a very serious mess (God forbid) professional armies (without quotes) will fight for 5-10 days and their combat potential will be largely exhausted. Still, modern weapons are very powerful, and most of the superweapon will be mutually destroyed. THOSE. the professional part completed the task of gaining time for the deployment of imaging. After that, a mobility reserve with a simple AK, T-55 type club, etc., will have to be involved in deciding the victorious march.
    Therefore, the army should be professional, but one of its most important tasks in peacetime should be the task of preparing this mobility reserve. i.e. call. Depending on the political and economic situation, the percentage of contractors and conscripts may fluctuate. Going to any extreme is fatal for the sovereignty of the state.
    1. S-200
      S-200 8 December 2013 07: 24
      0
      Quote: andr327
      with a very serious mess (God forbid) professional armies (without quotes) will fight for 5-10 days and their combat potential will be largely exhausted. Still, modern weapons are very powerful, and most of the superweapon will be mutually destroyed. THOSE. the professional part completed the task of gaining time for the deployment of imaging.

      THEORETIC OF MODERN WAR Oh well....
      5-10 days to Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan (we and the Americans))), Iraq, Libya, Syria?
      or were they "non-modern wars" or even - NOT WAR at all? what
      understand, understand ... thermonuclear war!
      momento more- "Instantly at sea!" wassat
      after "crushing" and not very thermonuclear strikes, the war can last for many months or years, with varying success in the complete depletion of the resources of the belligerent countries.
      if there is no betrayal in the leadership (and there will be a will and reason), then having such a territory you can fight for years, preparing any reserves in the war
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 8 December 2013 13: 37
        +2
        You should at least read the post normally. We are talking about a high-intensity conflict of the PMV-WWII level. Remember how long it took the cadre Red Army to be defeated. Already in July, the mechanized corps were left without tanks, turning into greatly reduced infantry tracking. And this is even without modern means of destruction. In terms of quantity and intensity of hostilities, Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya did not stand side by side with such wars. You will also recall the number of "tomahawks" among the amers. Do you think they will be enough for a couple of years of military conflict? Or about high-precision weapons, which the entire NATO lacked even for a 30-day campaign in Yugoslavia. But these are the Americans, the most sophisticated in the world. And the Swedes are generally going to fight for 10 days. Their high-tech aircraft will not be enough for more. So everything is right. The regular army is a cover for mobilization. Well, what will survive, especially the air defense systems, the air force, remain as the core of the deployed armed forces.
      2. alicante11
        alicante11 8 December 2013 13: 43
        +1
        And, yes, about the time for training reservists. Again, when did the Wehrmacht find itself near Moscow? And it was they who smuggled in with the SWF for two months, stopping their advance to Moscow. How many months have passed? We have time to rivet reservists if men do not know from which side to approach the machine? But there before the battle near Moscow they mobilized several million trained reservists. Which, already in July-August, for example, came to replenish units (in particular, the 5 Army of the South Federal Front).
  18. FC SKIF
    FC SKIF 7 December 2013 21: 47
    0
    Ukraine was lucky, unlike Russia, its military means (there are others) are not occupied. By and large - we are their only guarantee of security from the same Turkey and even from European countries, while paying a lot for the Black Sea Fleet base. It’s ridiculous.
  19. VADEL
    VADEL 7 December 2013 22: 07
    +1
    Service and training conscripts, mobilization, the formation of the Israeli army. There is something to learn, maybe something came up to us. IMHO. soldier
    1. not main
      not main 7 December 2013 23: 41
      +1
      Why not Switzerland? But in fact, where is Israel and where is Russia! Different environment and, accordingly, different tasks! And do not copy anyone! We must take the best from others and create our own best possible! And for this we need professionals especially in the leadership of the sun!
  20. 1goose3
    1goose3 7 December 2013 22: 56
    +5
    Quote: My address
    I believe that the best commander is the one who has left the rank and file, and the best leader is the one who has left the workers.


    Golden words are yours. I agree. good
  21. sashka
    sashka 8 December 2013 00: 48
    -6
    Kazakhs and Ukrainians Here are the greatest warriors. Do you need to be friends with your head? They don’t even have letters
    1. Akim
      Akim 8 December 2013 06: 10
      +2
      Quote: Sasha
      They don’t even have letters

      GREAT argument. Especially if you recall that our alphabet was composed of the Greeks on the basis of theirs.
      1. saxa2103
        saxa2103 8 December 2013 08: 24
        0
        instead of the old Slavic
        1. Akim
          Akim 8 December 2013 08: 52
          -2
          Quote: saxa2103
          instead of the old Slavic

          Until the 10th century, the Slavs had no common written language. There was some kind of alphabet. similar to Sanskrit, but he did not receive distribution. Then many peoples wrote with hooks. In general, I am not a historian. Here is the fact that Cyril and Methodius made us the alphabet.
    2. FormerMariman
      FormerMariman 8 December 2013 08: 36
      +1
      Here is a classic example of how a pseudo-patriotic forum member is unable to cope with his gnawing chauvinism, imagining himself to be a great expert in the armies of the world, history and writing, lying on the couch, contrary to common sense and the meaning of Khramchikhin's article as a whole gives people wise advice about the need to be friends with their heads! We will not figure it out without him, we are "non-people": bad warriors, we are not friends with their heads, and even we have no letters. We really need SASHKA your advice and opinion!
  22. Per se.
    Per se. 8 December 2013 00: 54
    0
    Those who fight for the contract make the main motivation for professional military training, obtaining a specialist for complex equipment. Supporters of the conscription, talk about the need to prepare a mobilization reserve, the education of patriotism. I would like to note right away that it is incorrect to compare the officer corps as part of the "contract army", this is a vocation and a profession that implies serving the Fatherland for life, and not for 2-3 years at an acceptable salary. There is a difference in motivation, you can work well in the same office for money, and work even better for big money, but you cannot decide for what money you are ready to give your life in the battle for the Motherland. Those for whom earnings are important are more likely to choose another profession, more monetary and safer, than become officers. Now, directly "contractors". Here, too, it is necessary to distinguish between over-conscripts who have proven themselves well in urgent service, and those who were unclaimed in civilian life, came to earn extra money. Those who "came to earn extra money" are also different people, but with such motivation it is natural to assume that their "fighting spirit" will depend on the amount of the fee. Give up completely from the call, and, for some, the motivation will be money, for others the motivation is not to serve money too (let those who receive our taxes serve). The call is needed, it is morality and patriotism. In war, there are two ways to help your country - at the front in the army and in the rear for the army. This should be taken as a basis for civic duty, the best (who wants and can) conscription service in the army for 3 years, the rest ("extra", who does not want or cannot) civil service to the army fund ("everything for the front, everything for victory "). For certain specialties, positions and special forces, conscripts. Technical positions, logistics and support specialists can be “contact people”. That’s all the solution that could suit everyone.
    1. Jogan-xnumx
      Jogan-xnumx 8 December 2013 02: 35
      +1
      Quote: Per se.
      That's the whole solution that could suit everyone.

      One hundred pounds. I support !!! good soldier
    2. vladsolo56
      vladsolo56 8 December 2013 08: 51
      0
      As you can’t understand, military service should become a profession, and not under a contract for 2-3 or even 5 years. A profession by vocation, and at least by responsibility, the same profession as a miner. metallurgy and others. The contract for 2-4 years is essentially bullshit, the same conscripts only for big money. I suspect that those who have served the urgent themselves are tearing their throats for the call, and now he is furious that someone may not serve, do not sit stupidly in the barracks, do not take revenge on the parade ground and do not do anything except military training.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. aviamed90
        aviamed90 8 December 2013 10: 13
        +1
        vladsolo56

        Oh well.

        You admit that a young man, having served 2-3 years (5 years) and having a "dream" to become eternal ordinary (sergeant), does not want to subsequently climb the career ladder? Those. become an officer?


        Private (sergeant) - is the limit to which he is allowed to reach? And then what?
        Private in 45 years? And retire?

        And it is impossible to compare the profession of a miner (metallurgist, etc.) with the profession of a soldier. These are different things.

        Ideally, a soldier obliged to kill people in the name of protecting their homeland. Try doing this for 20-25 years. The roof will go! Do you want to make a soldier an assassin (albeit with noble purposes)?

        And do not compare it with the profession of an officer. The officer undoubtedly has slightly different functions.
        1. vladsolo56
          vladsolo56 8 December 2013 14: 22
          0
          Strange logic, a person working all his life as a plumber, this is normal, well, or for example, a mechanic at a factory. And a man who is also a retired soldier is kind of like nonsense. In addition, if you have a head on your shoulders and a desire for development, who will prohibit learning and raising ranks? About the fact that a soldier must kill 25 years, it generally bent. Yes, the officer seems to be a worthy person, and the soldier is cannon fodder.
      3. Per se.
        Per se. 8 December 2013 14: 27
        0
        Quote: vladsolo56
        As you can’t understand, military service should become a profession, and not under a contract for 2-3 or even for 5 years.
        It seems, Vladimir, that you only read the last lines in my commentary. I, just for the professional army, and this is not synonymous with "contract". There is no contradiction in this when there is a professional officer corps, well-trained conscripts, with their supplement, in separate places, over-conscripts and contract soldiers. At the same time, everyone should be liable for military service, with the difference that some serve on conscription for 3 years in the army, receiving benefits, others serve in the civil service (after short-term courses in civil defense and the course of a young soldier), working out for the fund those who serve in their place ...
        Quote: vladsolo56
        I suspect that those who served the urgent themselves are tearing their throats for the call, and now he is furious that someone may not serve, not sit stupidly in the barracks, not take revenge on the parade ground and not do anything except military training.
        It seems that you did not serve or you skipped the entire service of the parade ground. In the civil service, everyone will have to serve, do you want to join the army, "white ticket"? Serve "in the rear", work on defense. How else, it was during the war. "Sitting stupidly in the barracks" can not only conscripts, as well as military training are required not only "contract soldiers".
  23. standby
    standby 8 December 2013 01: 25
    +1
    [quote] Ukraine is a huge problem with national identification and, therefore, with motivation, and therefore it is difficult to expect from military recruits an acute desire to shed blood for the country. Secondly, Ukraine has nowhere to expect aggression from. [/ Quote]

    I think that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainian citizens are quite educated people, and with national identity they have just everything in order (if we consider it as a sense of belonging of a person to a specific national (ethnic) culture, in which he constantly identifies himself with a certain group, ethnic group, nation, race). They have huge problem with political elites (to one degree or another, anti-popular, anti-state, greedy, corrupt, weak-willed, "muddy"). Mistrust in the authorities, the uncertainty of the future demotivate, just more than anything. But this is about the state, the country there, I believe, lives a slightly different life. So if we talk about the country, then I've heard that Ukrainians are excellent warriors and in the event of a real armed conflict they will be able to prove themselves, regardless of the method of recruiting the army. A country with power and economy would be "optimized", there you look and the army will succeed. And so far there is no place to shed blood, thank God, and certainly not in internal conflicts!

    [quote] True, the western neighbors (Hungary and Romania) are conducting aggression against Ukraine today: they are distributing their passports to Ukrainian citizens living in territories previously owned by these countries. Citizens of "non-self" take other people's passports with pleasure. Fighting this military means is useless. [quote]

    Sure, with pleasure! Despite the fact that the western regions are not economically developed, their population is focused mainly on employment in European countries, visas are not needed, + legal stay and employment - this is highly motivating! With all this, I think there will be no demands on these grounds, no wars! Yes, admitting this is another "minus" of the current government!
    I once heard a conversation between a citizen and an official (I’m not going to offend anyone’s feelings):
    - I’m for your information - EU citizen!
    - Citizen, be easier! Are you just a Moldovan with a Romanian passport ?!
    - How do you know?!?
    - Well, as I heard about the European Union, I immediately thought, - Moldovan! laughing
  24. kargrom
    kargrom 8 December 2013 02: 05
    0
    I read, there is an understanding. Thanks to everyone that you are!
  25. kreid2
    kreid2 8 December 2013 04: 47
    +1
    According to the logic of those who are against the professional army, because mercenaries cannot be for the people, it turns out that the officers are 5th column :)) They are hired.
    The shortcomings of a professional army result from an attempt to build it on the model of a draft, with hours of service. weekend and other ..
    Such an army, in principle, is not combat ready to maintain combat capability. Warheads should serve on a shift basis. 2 months in part - a month of rest. And to serve not in a barracks but in an expanded position. Then do not need exercises ..
    As for the recruits. This is complete nonsense than what they are doing in the army. Serve you know. In the best case, the study itself is 3 months for the entire service, and the rest is work for uncle ....
  26. Akim
    Akim 8 December 2013 06: 55
    +1
    I set the article as a minus (I put the articles, forum users do not). If anyone says that in a year of urgency a normal soldier will leave the conscript, he will laugh in person. The author forgot to mention also reservists, who also sign the contract.
    About the fact that Kazakhstan received or produces said about Ukraine no. What the Ukrainian army received / will receive in 2013.
    Unfortunately (or fortunately, I am for the second), this is practically not all new, but modernized equipment.

    one modernized front-line bomber.
    two upgraded attack aircraft
    three modernized L-39
    two repaired transport vehicles (one Il-76 and one An-26)
    three flight simulators (MiG-29, Su-25 and L-39).
    one upgraded S-300PS
    batch of modernized Buk-M1 (I don’t know the number)
    a batch of modernized Igla and Strela-2M MANPADS
    one early warning radar
    9 BM Bulat tanks
    two BTS-5 tractors
    unfortunately, I can’t find the BTR-7 party (with the FIRST TIME artillery) photos.
    a batch (3 or 4 pieces) of biaxial KrAZ
    two cars "Shaman" (a mixture of Shishi and Ural)
    Six UAZs were returned to operation (5 Bobiks and one Loaf)
    a number of ships and ships were repaired (here is the surrender of artillery boats Gyurza-M, unfortunately carried over to next year)
    a small batch of precision shells and ATGMs
    batch of shots PG-7T
    a batch of new parachutes (I don’t know the exact number, but one Military Academy in Odessa received more than 120 of them)
    scuba party
    new radio stations (stationary and portable)
    Night Vision Devices and Binoculars
    batch of body armor and helmets
    gas masks
    ammunition for CO.

    Maybe I still missed something.
    1. Akim
      Akim 8 December 2013 11: 17
      +1
      Missed the helicopters. This year, two Mi-24V assault and assault assault rifles, one Mi-8MT and one upgraded for the Mi-2MSB cadets, were returned to service. Received two training aircraft KhAZ-30. Strange, isn't it? With the military budget equal to a small Czech Republic, something else is acquired, combat training is carried out (this year for the first time in 10 years they fired shells with NON), air raids are increasing, military payments are increasing. I cannot explain this phenomenon. Except that the purchase prices for weapons in our country are 3-4 times lower than in Poland.
  27. Akim
    Akim 8 December 2013 07: 48
    +1
    In addition. Party of a new military uniform and equipment (tests are underway) This year Ukraine has adopted 12 models of equipment and military equipment. The following year, a tender was announced for the selection of a new SB (assault rifle, light machine gun and pistol). One Croatian, one Polish, two Ukrainian and Russian enterprises are participating. There is also a preliminary application from the Czech Republic.
    An order has been made for a batch of large-caliber sniper rifles.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Semurg
      Semurg 8 December 2013 08: 44
      +2
      if it is not biased to approach, then in comparison with the population and territory, Azerbaijan made the most powerful arms purchases. I think if you correlate the population-territory of their army is better equipped with modern weapons than all post-Soviet countries, the truth is the case with the ground forces. If they manage to buy modern aircraft, then the Air Force will be the best. The Navy is not likely to be greatly strengthened. RCC and the Air Force are shooting through the entire Caspian.
      1. Akim
        Akim 8 December 2013 08: 54
        +2
        Quote: Semurg
        Azerbaijan made the most powerful arms purchases

        no doubt. If the Ukrainian army had a budget of three - we would have had enough.
        1. Semurg
          Semurg 8 December 2013 10: 17
          +1
          Akim understand that the nickname is from the film, but in Kazakhstan "akim" is the head of a region or a city wink . According to the budget for the Ukrainian army, the army doesn’t seem to be fighting yet. But the Azerbaijani army may well have to use the purchased weapons (hence I think the costs are appropriate).
    3. The comment was deleted.
  28. FormerMariman
    FormerMariman 8 December 2013 07: 57
    +3
    [quote = sashka] Kazakhs and Ukrainians Here are the greatest warriors. Do you need to be friends with your head? They don’t even have letters [/ quot [b] е]
    Here is a classic example of how a pseudo-patriotic forum member is unable to cope with his gnawing chauvinism, imagining himself to be a great expert in the armies of the world, history and writing, lying on the couch, contrary to common sense and the meaning of Khramchikhin's article as a whole gives people wise advice about the need to be friends with their heads! We will not figure it out without him, we are "not people": bad warriors, we are not friends with their heads, and even we have no letters. We need SASHKIN's advice and opinion so much!
    1. VirtusEtHonor
      VirtusEtHonor 8 December 2013 07: 58
      +2
      Sofa experts in business laughing
      1. saxa2103
        saxa2103 8 December 2013 08: 31
        0
        I wonder what percentage of employees, urgent or pf, and who for what ????
        laughing
  29. Nomad
    Nomad 8 December 2013 08: 31
    +2
    "The" professional "army in the event of such aggression instantly collapses due to lack of motivation - to fight not for money, but for the homeland can only be a conscript army."
    Interesting passage. Do the contractors have no homeland? A professional military man has the same motivation to defend his homeland as a conscript, and training is better.
    About China’s expansion, this is generally Khramchikhin’s idefix. Of course there is such a probability, but for some reason Khramchikhin speaks of it as inevitability.
    1. Massik
      Massik 8 December 2013 12: 33
      0
      We should be afraid of China in the first place, because it may simply not have enough ammunition laughing It’s good for you, you live outside the Atlantic river, but you know pushing your pus to us, laws like you have human laws in some states, but you rot anyway ...
  30. vkrav
    vkrav 8 December 2013 12: 22
    0
    Quote: Nomad
    A professional military man has the same motivation to defend his homeland as a conscript, and training is better.

    Maybe ... But for some reason, when they talk about a professional army, an episode of the Vietnam War is always recalled ... Uncle Sam's pilots signed a contract for 100 (one hundred) sorties, after which the government made a contractual obligation to evacuate them, etc., and so on ... a bonus, a salary allowance and a couple of new bastards. Well, someone described the case at the end of the war ... the Vietnamese storm the airfield, bombard mortars, and the pilots are sitting on suitcases at the airport, fulfilling the contract and stupidly waiting when the government fulfills its part of the contract ...
    1. Akim
      Akim 8 December 2013 12: 30
      +2
      When did you see that our laws were respected like the Americans? Take car insurance for example. The presence of a policy does not mean a mandatory payment. Or a guarantee for household appliances, etc, etc ...
  31. Hauptam
    Hauptam 8 December 2013 13: 46
    -1
    Quote: S-200
    Quote: Hauptam
    Canceling the call in peacetime, depriving yourself of a mobilization reserve in the military. (Axiom)

    it is - WRONG!
    mobile reserve is formed from:
    1. earlier served proffi ... up to 5? years
    2. civilians who have not previously served and called up - short-term training and cannon fodder with a professional team skeleton - ready
    We do not forget that in the Second World War the formation of Siberian rifle divisions in the rear took place mainly from draftees who had never served in the army, and just like in Germany in the last months of the war, a land assault was formed from civilian ...
    There would be people, and, it doesn’t matter, men or women (Israel) ... all cannon fodder!

    that's exactly "Cannon Meat" and not a mob reserve. It is necessary to "feel" the love for the Motherland and the need to protect it while undergoing military service and not performing work under a contract.
  32. Eugene
    Eugene 8 December 2013 14: 23
    +1
    I regularly watch videos about August 809. How did the valiant contract soldiers of Georgia run away! That I didn’t hear in those dashing days about their sailors, Kosmodemyansky, Panfilov’s. It will still not be easy for us who served in the XNUMXs to leave everything and run away.
  33. varov14
    varov14 8 December 2013 17: 17
    0
    As always with a delay, but still I will speak out. I read the comments, some kind of confusion. Professional army, contract soldiers, conscripts. That there is a professional, it is in production, then in the army. I gave a task and forgot, and you know for sure that the task will be completed accurately, on time, and with proper quality. You give another "professional" the same task and know in advance that you need an eye and an eye. A professional is, first of all, upbringing from young nails, a state of mind, a person simply cannot do otherwise, they paid him or took on his own initiative. Proceeding from this, a professional can be both a contract soldier and a conscript. The issue of urgent service is also not at all unambiguous. you can "drill" without fools for a month, or you can paint the fences and the basement near the barracks for 2,5 years, well, plus march on the parade ground, to strengthen discipline - you can't learn military science from all this. On the contrary, this "freebie" discourages and discredits the army. He served in his time for 2,5 years, the machine gun in 45 seconds was of course taught to disassemble and assemble, well, physical training, but I had a chance to shoot 3 times, 3 shots each, as if they were cannon fodder. Is such an army needed? If the state, for example, decides to serve for a month, but for several years, then all the time of service should be devoted to continuous learning, and this is a difficult matter, to constantly learn more and more new members. Routine work that requires real, dedicated professionals. Much easier a year, sometimes shooting, and then paint the fences. Then the old ammunition depots have to be disposed of.
  34. ekzorsist
    ekzorsist 8 December 2013 20: 35
    -2
    Quote: Guun
    The contract army is better suited for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan. Our army is not weak, but there are also a few minuses. After the incident with conscripts (sorry for the guys and their parents), the question about the contract army was quickly taken and made; against the bandit formations, the contract soldiers did the very thing - they knew where you were going, not whine and forward. And we’ll save a lot of money.

    Wow !!!
    The Kazakh "army" is simply internal troops in the old Soviet sense, but with slightly expanded capabilities and a very large aplomb. In reality, the Kazakh army is simply unable to withstand a real external invasion, even by organized gangs of formations. Well, the transition to a contract basis ... good bully ... has many huge drawbacks and the most important of them is the complete lack of a mobile reserve, and what is more, a real trained one (even if using outdated equipment and weapons, BUT !!! The same states on which it is fashionable to equal other than their mercenaries in the armed forces have recruiting by conscription, and constantly operating militia, rangers, conscripts and over-conscripts. But on some mercenaries or contract soldiers the army will not work ... quick reaction troops - yes, but for long-term military operations this is not enough, nothing to plug the holes of losses with. In short, study the experience of World War II, the wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan ...
    Well, and another small snag - the political and economic components within the country, and they are rather deplorable - complete demoralization of power, corruption of universal proportions everywhere, fussing with religious movements of all stripes (especially Islamism), plus the constantly inflated nationalism and snobbery of the titular nation ... , and also add a huge stratification of society, the absence of any kind of unifying national (not national !!!, namely national!) idea at all ... and it turns out - at random, awry, awry - the army.
  35. ekzorsist
    ekzorsist 8 December 2013 20: 50
    0
    Akim EU Today, 06:55 AM New
    If anyone says that in a year of urgency a normal soldier will leave the conscript, he will laugh in person.
    And I will laugh even harder, to the one who says that in a week or two you will receive a great fighter taken from the "street" without even basic military training as a "professional contract soldier" .... Uncle - you are just crazy !!! It is dangerous to trust him and the weapon. But in two - three years, as you call "terms", you can get not a bad fighter. At least the materiel will learn and will have some kind of training and, unlike the accepted "contract specialist" from the street, will represent a real combat unit.
    1. Akim
      Akim 8 December 2013 21: 08
      0
      Quote: ekzorsist
      But in two - three years, as you call "terms", you can get not a bad fighter.

      That's it. Two or three years. But not in a year. As for the fighter. Recent local wars have shown that they learn very quickly in combat conditions in order to be able to shoot.
  36. I am a Russian
    I am a Russian 8 December 2013 21: 58
    0
    "The conscript army is necessary for the state if there is a serious threat of external aggression for it. ... the population of Ukraine has a huge problem with national identification and ..."

    yes ... there is no need to fight ... you can buy or rent. "National identification" is not a problem for Ukrainians ... they are like cats ... when cats have nothing to do or not hunt, they start licking eggs. So is the Ukrainian - there is nothing to do, so he begins to measure himself with "eggplants"
  37. Nomad
    Nomad 9 December 2013 06: 08
    +1
    Quote: vkrav
    Maybe ... But for some reason, when they talk about a professional army, an episode of the Vietnam War is always recalled ... Uncle Sam's pilots signed a contract for 100 (one hundred) sorties

    The fact of the matter is that the Americans in Vietnam did not defend their homeland, but committed aggression. Kazakhstan on the other side of the globe is not going to fight like ...
  38. Nomad
    Nomad 9 December 2013 06: 11
    +1
    Quote: ekzorsist
    The Kazakh "army" is simply internal troops in the old Soviet sense, but with slightly expanded capabilities and a very large aplomb. In reality, the Kazakh army is simply not able to withstand a real external invasion, even by organized gangs of formations

    Where are such conclusions from? Have you served / fought? Unfortunately, we have a lot of clever people who just do that they criticize everything and everyone, even that which they absolutely do not understand, sitting at point 5. I hope you are not one of those?
  39. ekzorsist
    ekzorsist 9 December 2013 22: 29
    -1
    Quote: Nomad
    Where are such conclusions from? Have you served / fought? Unfortunately, we have a lot of clever people who just do that they criticize everything and everyone, even that which they absolutely do not understand, sitting at point 5. I hope you are not one of those?
    Alas ... unfortunately, alas.
    And honestly, I just don’t want to paint what and why - there are a lot of buttons, and it’s as beautiful to write as you simply don’t.
    Just compare for yourself what is and how it can be.
    In reality, an army of professionals or mercenaries is limited quantitatively; it cannot draw a reserve from nowhere. Use the Ministry of Internal Affairs as a reserve? So these tasks are different and the preparation is not the same.
    At that moment, the army of Kazakhstan is not just not homogeneous, but also quite a lot of "miracles" are happening in it - did not you notice, by chance?
    Either one conscript soldier, like Rambo, manages to knock down the outpost (with contractors, by the way too !!!), then the plane with the high command (!!!) of the KNB suddenly falls, then the head of the higher (!!!) military university suddenly shot himself ... it's all in plain sight, and you look inside ... it smells bad. And you - "... the army, the army ... but we will shower everyone with hats or skullcaps ..."
    An army is such as is the society surrounding it.
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