Military Review

Opponent in Sweden

118
Being recently in the Swedish museum of military equipment Arsenalen, I acquired there, on occasion, a curious book - “Swedish armor. 90 years of development of Swedish military equipment” (Svenskt pansar. 90 Еr av svenskt stridsfordonutveckling). One chapter from there interested me so much that I even took the trouble to translate it into Russian and present it to the public. Immediately I warn you that a lot of letters and pictures ...


Opponent in Sweden

The maneuvering capabilities of the enemy in the northern part of Norrland were of great interest to our defense planning. Testing these opportunities on the example of T-80U, in the area of ​​our defensive positions, confirmed the worst fears - the cars overcame both off-road and deep snow.


Special offer

On the last working day before Christmas 1990, a year after the fall of the Berlin Wall, a fax from the Swedish Embassy in Bonn arrived at the office of the Swedish Defense Service (Försvarets materielverk, FMV). It was a list of weapons and military equipment of East Germany, put up for sale, with a volume of about a hundred pages.

In November, in Paris, 22 countries of NATO and the former Warsaw Treaty concluded the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE). In the area of ​​the Treaty (from the Atlantic to the Urals), the parties established such arms restrictions that by the end of 1995 more than 10000 were to be destroyed tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery systems. Germany quickly put up for sale the technology of the former GDR. Sweden did not participate in the CFE Treaty, and therefore could buy some of this arsenal.

Threat Information

On FMV, on duty, on the last day before Christmas, was the head of the technical research department, Lieutenant Colonel Karl-Gustav Svantesson. Fax, for the most part, listed what he had theoretically studied over the past 15 years, while being trained at the army headquarters and serving as intelligence chief at the headquarters of the unit. It was necessary to use the opportunity to study our main threat - the Soviet Union, which had ceased to exist only a year later.

Obviously, the main interest was the tank T-72, but what other armored vehicles to choose to study? Army intelligence offered MT-LB, whose capabilities were relatively poorly known, but interesting, as the armored personnel carrier played a prominent role in the threat scenario in the north of Norrland. FMV sent a request to the government, which in the spring of 1991 of the year made a decision on the procurement for study purposes. The Swedish application (the amount allocated by the government) was significantly less than the amount that the German Ministry of Finance set as the lower limit. As a result of negotiations, Sweden managed to defend the initial volume of purchases, while the German Ministry of Defense had to cover the difference in the form of payment for the results of the Swedish tests. NATO was interested in the patency of the machines around the Arctic Circle.

Unusual purchases

FMV executives had to improvise, given the unusual purchase and certain turbulence in Germany at that time.


In the fall of 1991, the Swedish delegation purchased five T-72 and five MT-LBs in Germany. From left to right: Division Chief Rolf Enblom, Major Jan Fosberg, Lieutenant Colonel Svanteson, Major Karl Scaremire (Karl Skaremyr, on-site T-72), Engineer Anders Berg, Lieutenant Colonel Jan Estlund (Jan Östlund) and unit manager Paul Holmberg. Karl Scaremire represented the army, and the rest - FMV.



Major Jan Fosberg of the armored vehicles department (stridsfordonsbyrån) was responsible for the delivery of the samples, as well as the planning of their inspections and tests. He was well versed in the Warsaw Pact military equipment, spoke German fluently and had the exceptional ability to build connections and use them to achieve the objectives of the project.


Test and Test Results

T-72 and MT-LB showed a cross in the north of Norrland that exceeded all expectations (or fears). The tests became a turning point for reassessing the threat of northern Scandinavia. The calculation of the impassability of the landscape for armored vehicles of the Warsaw Pact was greatly exaggerated. Also, tests confirmed what many have long noted: the army needs an armored personnel carrier of the type MT-LB, which can provide protection to the now completely unprotected infantry units.


T-72 and MT-LB without preparation overcome the Viton River during the tests for patency in the north of Norrland.




Unexpected information about enemy armored vehicles

The crew of the tank T-72 M1 consists of three people. Gun caliber 125 mm has a separate automatic loading. The car weighs about 44 tons and using the 12-cylinder engine rated at 780 l. with. reaches speeds up to 65 km / h. Tests for patency showed that the ability of the tank to overcome deep snow and swampy places were underestimated.


The T-72 tank demonstrates “self-pulling” in a swamp near the Kalixlinjen defensive line. The log is hooked to the tracks by the caterpillars, tightened under the tank as they rotate, and serves as an additional lug. In the stowed position, a self-pulling log is usually attached to the stern of the tank.


The most interesting was, perhaps, the analysis of the security of the tank. T-72М1 was a modernized version of the Russian tank, which was in service with the 1973 year. The T-72M1 was created in 1982 and had improved reservations. The upper frontal part was reinforced with a 16 mm high strength steel sheet. Tower defense has been enhanced with a special filler. It was a cast from something like quartz sand. Its durability was not much higher than ordinary steel armor. She did not give an impressive increase in security, compared with a simple increase in the thickness of the reservation.

Comparison with past assumptions

To assess the security and effectiveness of the T-72 tank (which received the code designation Hotstrv IV), FMV conducted research and development in its time, the results of which served as the basis for assessments made by the Research Institute for Defense Studies (Försvarets forskningsanstalt, FOA) using computer simulations and test attacks. Now it was very interesting to compare the actual data with the results of these past estimates.
It turned out that the ballistic protection of both the turret and the hull were underestimated (equivalent thickness was 550 mm instead of 480). Also, there were discrepancies in the placement of ESD elements, and a much larger, compared to the model, size of the fuel pump. When the updated data was re-passed through computer simulation, the differences in the total probability of damage (utslagningssannolikheten) were only a few percent.

In addition, it turned out that the regular armor-piercing sabot projectile has a greater initial velocity than previously thought. During the calculations, the size of the corresponding powder charge was incorrectly estimated.

Sophisticated design


MT-LB had a good passability in snow and mud. In the upper illustration, the MT-LB is in its original version, tested in the winter of the year 1992. At the bottom - MT-LBU.



It turned out that T-72 has a well-thought-out protection against atomic, chemical and biological weapons. Most of the automation was electromechanical (on the relay), which made it insensitive to radiation. The level of resistance to electromagnetic impulse was high (the wiring was shielded). On the inside of the armor was mounted coating thickness of 20-50 mm, which protects against gamma rays. This coating also proved to be an effective protection against secondary fragments in the event of damage by small-gauge cumulative projectiles. Both the total number of fragments and the angle of their cone decreased. The low profile of the tank reduced the likelihood of its overturning shock wave. An interesting feature was the spring-loaded air intake flaps that protected the filters from damage by an explosion.

Also measurements of the infrared radiation of the tank were made. From the front angle it was low, but the exhaust pipe on the left side gave a clear infrared signal. The tank could install a smoke screen by injecting fuel into the engine exhaust tract, or using smoke grenades. Such a veil gave a good masking in the visible part of the spectrum, but had a very limited effect on the infrared radiation of the heated parts.

A container containing an electromagnet that created a false magnetic silhouette of a tank in front of its hull was installed on one of the vehicles arriving in Sweden on the front armor sheet, which could lead to premature demolition of mines reacting to a magnetic field.

The results of the evaluation of ergonomics brought no surprises. The small size of the hull left the crew a very limited space (especially the driver). The commander's observation devices in the near zone had a very limited side view, the position of the shooter was close, but quite acceptable. In addition, the level of noise and vibration in the tank was very high. With the help of a simple modification, it was possible to get a driver's seat for comfort that was not inferior to the Ikv 91.

We came to the conclusion that the car was better than its reputation in the West, but, like all Russian tanks, it was designed to attack, and not to war with defensive positions.

MT-LB becomes Pansarbandvagn 401

Already in the fall of 1992, the government decided to purchase 800 MT-LB in Germany. The armored vehicles department was overloaded with work on the installation series of the Strf 90 Combat Vehicle, on the purchase of a new tank, on the repair and modernization of the Pbv 302 Armored personnel carrier. Therefore, a small group was organized under the leadership of Major Fosberg, who completed this procurement project, the largest, if you count in units of technology. The very purchase of cars with all the accessories required considerable effort, as the condition of the cars themselves, and spare parts for them, was very vague. In view of this, the group required an inventory, which was also not easy, since the army supply system in East Germany had a completely different structure than in Sweden. Among other things, the vehicles had to be repaired and upgraded according to the specifications of the Pbv 401 armored personnel carrier in order to meet Swedish safety and maintenance requirements. Repairs and upgrades were made by SIVG (which in 1994 changed its name to Neubrandenburger Fahrzeugwerk).


Research and testing techniques have shown that it is very reliable, and provides a high level of protection for its mass. The photo shows a rescue version of the tracked carrier.


More technology from the east

Since the number of MT-LBs was insufficient to satisfy the army’s need for lightly armored personnel carriers, the ground forces leadership suggested that the BMP-1 could be used for this purpose. FMV was quite skeptical due to a number of uncertainties. The gun required modernization for security reasons. Due to the age and design, the ammunition also required refinement or modernization. The command, however, insisted on the need for transporters, and was ready to abandon the functioning gun.

In view of this, FMV received an order to order the BMP-1 for evaluation and testing. Five cars were purchased. Their tests were conducted simultaneously in different parts of the country. And in June, 1994, the Government decides on full-scale procurement. The state of technology turned out to be very different. Bonn ordered the warehouses, headed by former colonels of the GDR army, to place all the property that could be used for civilian purposes in covered warehouses. To comply with this order, military equipment very often had to be placed under the open sky, due to which many vehicles were flooded with water and corroded.

For the modernization of the Swedish requirements announced a competition. The best was the offer of the Czech company VOP 026 from Sternberg. She was eager to show what meets the western requirements. The company was ISO certified by English Loyd, and met other requirements imposed by FMV. Although the choice of car from the very beginning looked doubtful, thanks to the good work of FMV in contract maintenance, the result of the modernization turned out to be better than one could imagine.


BMP-1 were repaired and modified by the Czech company VOP 26. Many cars were in poor condition, but went through a high-end upgrade to Pbv 501, which was proudly displayed at the exhibition. The Swedish FMV representative Gert Karlson (Gert Karlsson) is surrounded by the company's translator Vladimir Kvapilova (Vladimira Kvapilova) and the head of the development department, Jiri Teichman.


The Government’s decision to purchase the BMP-1 also included the acquisition of the 32 Tank Bridge Layers BLG 60. And in this case, FMV criticized such a decision. The bridge laying machine was created on the basis of the T-55 tank, and required a system of service and spare parts that was completely unique to Sweden.

The carrying capacity of bridges and their condition has not been documented. The stress tests carried out at the Royal Institute of Technology (Kungliga Tekniska Högskolan) in Stockholm showed that the bridge withstands 85 tons. This left a very small margin for the Strv 122 tank, which weighs more than 60 tons. Usually, bridges are subject to the requirements of a double margin of strength relative to the weight of the equipment for which they are intended. During the fatigue tests, the bridge collapsed after the 996 driveways of a machine weighing 65 tons. Thus, none of the tests were satisfactory. If a decision was made to procure BLG 60, their use should have been limited to strict safety requirements. Positive in this context was that the unfolding of the bridge was very fast and simple, and the cost of adopting the machine into service was unprecedentedly low. In fact, Sweden paid only for the update conducted by Neubrandenburger Fahrzeugwerk. The bridgelayer received the Swedish designation Brobv 971.


In total, 501 machines were upgraded to Pbv 350. However, they served in the Swedish army for only two years as a training tool. In 2000, an order was issued to deactivate them.


Stated above stories given in light of the changing role of the commanders of the armed forces and the FMV in 1993-1994. Previously, FMV, subordinate to the Government, was responsible for the purchase and maintenance of military equipment, and the leadership of the armed forces were involved in consultations. In the above cases, the roles have completely changed: the ground forces appealed to the Government for a purchase, which transferred it, in the form of an instruction for execution, to FMV. FMV managers were informed that all responsibility would also be transferred to the customer (in this case, to the ground forces).

T-80 - candidate for the Swedish tanks

During current work with candidates for the role of the new Swedish tank, in the spring of 1992, the political leadership received a proposal to consider the Russian T-80 for this role. The armored vehicles department of the FMV prepared a question, and established contacts with the Russian seller, Obronexport.

At that time there were difficult times in Russia, and it was difficult to get in touch and get information both from Russian official structures and from companies. The Embassy of Sweden in Moscow managed, with the help of the Russian authorities, to coordinate the visit of the Swedish delegation. However, the agenda remained obscure until the departure to Moscow.

First Swedish delegation at procurement negotiations in Russia

At Sheremetyevo airport, the delegation was awaited by a VIP reception, and an escort with flashing lights to the center of Moscow, where a meeting was held as part of the Council on military-technical cooperation with foreign countries. Representatives of the Oboronprom and several other organizations took part in the Council.


In the course of the shooting at the Kubinka tank test site, all types of ammunition were demonstrated, including a guided missile launched through the barrel.


The next day, the delegation visited Kubinka, located in 60 kilometers west of Moscow, where they were met by the commander of a tank division, General Zuralov (Zuralov). A tank T-80U was demonstrated at the Kubinka range, an option with a gas turbine engine produced in Omsk.
The Russian hosts were completely open: the delegations allowed them to photograph all the details of the tank, did not hide anything during the presentation, and when answering questions. The demonstration ended with a guided missile firing at a distance of 4 kilometers. The goal was successfully hit.


The Swedes were surprised by the openness of the Russians, which allowed them to study and photograph all the details of the T-80U. In the photo - gunner's sight. Bottom left is the AGABA night sight screen.



It was also allowed to examine in detail the ammunition. From left to right: a throwing device and an anti-tank guided missile 9М119 launched from the barrel, a charge and a cumulative projectile, an armor-piercing projectile and a corresponding charge.


A trip to Siberia

A big surprise for the delegation was the proposal to fly to Omsk, to the south of Western Siberia, the next day. The delegations provided the government aircraft with executive class saloon, equipped with a table, a sofa and armchairs.
After a three-hour flight, the delegation landed in Omsk, where it was met by the deputy director of the plant, a man of short stature (about 1 m), but very large competence. According to Soviet tradition, the director was located in Moscow, and we were expecting a few more surprises.


On the way to Omsk on board Russian VIP-aircraft. Above: Svanteson delegation leader. Below: Arms Expert Anders Berg, Trade Advisor John O Dahlstein, Military Attache, First Stage Colonel Karl-Evert Englund, both from the Swedish Embassy in Moscow




Omsk is a closed city in the center of Siberia

Omsk was only recently opened to the public, after many years of total closeness due to the military industry - enterprises for the production of tanks and missiles. In view of this, there were few hotels in the city, and the delegation was lodged in a closed sanatorium, where they arranged a dinner and a very representative reception.

Farming in the area provides a high level of agricultural production. Also, nature is rich in forests, oil and metal, so Omsk is the economic center of Western Siberia. Guests found here some amazing connections with Sweden. The city began to emerge around the redoubts, arranged at the beginning of the 18-th century. Their design and construction involved artillery lieutenant engineer, a Swede Calander, who was captured in Russian prisoners at Poltava in the 1709 year. Participated in the construction of the future Omsk and other Swedish officers. Before the revolution, the Consulate of Sweden was located in Omsk, and Swedish milk processing technologies were imported here. Until now, manual separators from Alfa Laval can be found in the villages. It was a strange coincidence that Omsk Drama Theater presented the Russian premiere of Strindberg’s “Tribad Night” play in the same year (1992).

Theory, inspection and test drive

The next day, experts in various fields of technology made a detailed report. The presentation was held at a high technical level, interspersed with patriotic phrases about the overall mission of the tank. Kondovaya Soviet rhetoric was striking, especially among older speakers. The young translator, who received his linguistic education as an officer-translator of the GRU, translated very carefully, but noted that he himself did not like this slang.

The owners were surprised by the fact that the Swedes did not have in their composition a special driver to test the driving characteristics of the tank. Check in, however, took place. He went to the factory site, which was relatively smooth and easy to overcome. The Russians described it as difficult, and limited the maximum speed - 60 km / h. The car was easy to drive and developed a very good acceleration. The suspension, however, turned out to be more rigid than Western tanks, which was probably the reason for the specified speed limit. Ergonomics was generally good, but there was less room inside than in Western tanks.

The next surprise was a visit to the plant. It was obvious that production had stopped. However, the entire staff was in the workplace. At the entrance to each workshop, the delegation was met by a dedicated master who spoke about his technological section. Each machine was an operator, in front of which lay a "blue" with a drawing of the manufactured part. Everyone was in clean work clothes, everything was cleaned and sparkled, but it was as quiet as in a grave.

After an intense day, there was a meeting with the management of the company, which has already prepared contracts - "How many tanks does the Swedish Kingdom want to buy?" The delegation had to explain the procedure for concluding major contracts, adopted in Sweden, by FMV. Their important point was that the purchased equipment should be tested in Sweden by Swedish staff.

Upon returning to Moscow, another meeting took place with Oboronexport and the General Directorate for Cooperation and Cooperation (GUSK). In addition to testing the T-80 in Sweden, other products and technologies for joint development, such as active armor for tanks, were discussed.

Tank T-80 becomes one of the alternatives for Sweden

Sweden needed new tanks for tank and mechanized brigades. There was a certain consensus that for tank brigades to choose the best of the cars offered on the market, and for mechanized brigades, in order to save, to buy something simpler.

The main candidates for a tank for tank brigades were: an improved version of the German Leopard 2, the American M1A2 Abrams, and the French Leclerc. At the same time, both Germans and Americans could offer as a tank for mechanized brigades machines of the same type, but of previous modifications, and used ones. The French had no such option. Thus, if Leclerc were chosen as the main tank, the T-80 could have become a tank version for mechanized brigades.

To coordinate all the work on the mechanized brigades, a working group was formed headed by leading specialist Håkan Hallgren.


Project manager, senior specialist Håkan Halgren at a training course at the Academy of Armored Forces in Moscow.


During the spring of 1993, several more trips to Moscow took place, the result of which was the signing of an agreement between FMV and the Russian authorities to lease a T-80 tank for testing in Sweden.


For three weeks in August-September 1994, tank officers, and some members of the working group who were supposed to lead the tests, were trained in Moscow. From left to right: Karl Skaremyr (Karl Skaremyr), lead researcher at the Tank School; Per Hallin, FMV Communications Specialist (sambandsinstallation); Ove Jansson, Tank School; Peder Borg, Tank School; Rune Gustafsson, representative of Oboronexport in Sweden; Jan Svensson, Tank School; Hans Friedén, FMV Weapons Specialist; Jerry Viskary FMV; Karl-Gustav Bartol (KG Bartoll), Tank School; Anders Sandmark FMV; Håkan Halgren, FMV Project Manager; Mats Juleen (Mats Juhlin), FMV; Lars-Eric Svensson (Lars-Erik Svensson), Tank School; Rolf Enblom FMV Service Specialist


The most "cool" tank of the enemy arrives in Sweden

When, in 1993, in Sweden, for the tests before the purchasing decision for the mechanized brigades, two copies of the famous Russian T-80U tank arrived, for many it was an unusual impression.

T-80U had a crew of three. He was armed with an 125mm gun with automatic loading and separate shots. The car weighing in 46 tons was equipped with a gas turbine engine with an output of 1250 l. with. and developed the speed of 70 km / h. The T-80U was tested from October 1993 to January 1994, primarily at the Armored Vehicle Center in Skövde.

In January 1994, the Government decided that the Leopard 2 would become the main battle tank in Sweden. For mechanized brigades in Germany were rented, at a low price, used Leopards 2А4. In view of this, the tests of T-80U were stopped, and in March they were sent back to Russia. Most of the tests, which were not performed due to the suspension of tests, included checking the ballistic protection of the tank with shelling, checking the accuracy of the main cannon, and operational analysis.

The results were very useful and interesting:

  • The Russian T-80U tank showed its superiority in comparison with our existing tanks in mobility (except for reversing, which was slow) and security (especially in the part related to ballistic protection, since its dynamic protection was effective against armor-piercing -sub rocker shells)

  • However, the obtained information on the effectiveness of 125 mm ammunition did not show significant advantages over the planned replacement of Centurions and Strv 103

  • The possibility of conducting combat operations in the dark time of day turned out to be insufficient with respect to the requirements imposed on tanks as part of mechanized brigades. This was true for both active IR and thermal imaging surveillance devices that participated in the tests.

  • T-80U was equipped with a system that allowed firing a rocket through the barrel of a cannon, which made it possible to fire at a range not accessible to any other tank (up to 5000 m)

  • The Russians were also ahead in the field of automatic defense systems, such as the Arena, which was designed to hit incoming missiles before they hit the protected object (in this case, the T-80)

  • The reliability of the two tanks tested proved high. During the tests they did not have a single failure. Tanks proved to be well adapted to Swedish conditions.

    Trials have become a significant event even at the international level. After all, it was the first time that Russian heavy weapons were demonstrated in the West.

    Many were disappointed that the tests had to be stopped before all the capabilities of the machine for attack and defense were studied. The project manager attempted to oppose the cessation of testing, but realized that the decision was made at the highest level when the FMV Ground Forces Supply Officer, Major General Perkut Green said: "Hokan, there are times when you need to respond" General! "

    Svenskt Pansar - 90 år av svensk stridsfordonsutveckling
    © Rickard O. Lindström, Carl-Gustaf Svantesson och Svenskt Militärhistoriskt Biblioteks Förlag, 2009
    MaxWolf Translation
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    1. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 7 December 2013 07: 56
      70
      Here is the answer to our Middle Eastern "friends" about our technology in general and cross-country ability in particular :) And then all the Merkava and the Merkava :)
      1. Hunghuz
        Hunghuz 8 December 2013 07: 25
        +5
        hi Well, Merkava-4, after 200-250 hours, the motor track is covered with a copper basin) even in battle) is there an obscure right crazy turf tank? fully campus and giving 30 rounds per minute ......... ???
        1. koosss
          koosss 8 December 2013 12: 32
          +6
          west, we studied all our equipment up and down (tanks, helicopters) and where we have their equipment (Apaches, Abrams)
          1. tilovaykrisa
            tilovaykrisa 9 December 2013 14: 41
            0
            At that time, the most advanced Swedes wiring technologies were transferred free of charge.
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 December 2013 14: 44
              +1
              Quote: tilovaykrisa
              At that time, the most advanced Swedes wiring technologies were transferred free of charge.

              Is it possible in more detail which technologies have been transferred? And are there any facts of their application? Has MH been put there on Swedish STRV 122? Or something else?
    2. j iz sibiri
      j iz sibiri 7 December 2013 07: 59
      +6
      we’ll kick an ass
    3. GHG
      GHG 7 December 2013 08: 18
      34
      It is nice to read the ratings of Swedish specialists.
      1. Civil
        Civil 7 December 2013 14: 23
        +4
        Swedes ... Scandinavian Jews))
      2. wei
        wei 9 December 2013 16: 23
        +1
        and then TOP himself gave the go-ahead laughing
    4. mirag2
      mirag2 7 December 2013 08: 21
      32
      A huge thank you to the author of the article for the translation.
      Very interesting, always interesting to know the opinion from the other side.
    5. makarov
      makarov 7 December 2013 08: 39
      43
      Diluted like suckers. We took the tanks, studied all their strengths and weaknesses, and returned them back with the words "sorry, not required." Where is the Contract ?? "Where is Zin's money?"
      1. Sergey Sitnikov
        Sergey Sitnikov 7 December 2013 10: 27
        13
        you are like a child))) - you see only good and evil, black and white
        in those years in Omsk t-95 was already in the drawings and blocks but there was no money for a prototype
        in N. Tagil there was already 2 t-90 in trials
        just needed money and that's it
        1. Andrey Skokovsky
          Andrey Skokovsky 8 December 2013 10: 57
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Sitnikov
          you are like a child))) - you see only good and evil, black and white
          in those years in Omsk t-95 was already in the drawings and blocks but there was no money for a prototype
          in N. Tagil there was already 2 t-90 in trials
          just needed money and that's it

          and the money suddenly disappeared somewhere, right?
          just a couple of years before that, the Central Bank of the Russian Federation was created, and in our country centralized financing of ALL industry disappeared, plus everyone began to be sharply made "profitable and self-sufficient" ...
      2. Val_y
        Val_y 10 December 2013 15: 25
        +2
        Comrades, we’re not forgetting 1993 (a complete revelry of all kinds of trash, such as Nemtsav, Kozyrev, Gaidar, Blackhead and other christian sellers) so what can I say, eh !!!! ????
    6. svp67
      svp67 7 December 2013 08: 51
      14
      Both the topic of the article and the conclusions of the Swedish specialists are interesting. Thank.
    7. bomg.77
      bomg.77 7 December 2013 09: 12
      12
      Thanks to the author! Very interesting story
    8. realist
      realist 7 December 2013 09: 34
      +3
      the Swedes bought the equipment and were still planning - and somehow without a squeak - they say only domestic. here this is a sober look at things experts
      1. edge
        edge 8 December 2013 04: 36
        +4
        and who doubted that our armored vehicles were perhaps the best in the world. For good reason they were afraid, afraid and will be afraid, fear, envy and slander (which the Trolls are heavily engaged in). And the combination of the Russian car and the Russian crew is generally a killer combination (neither one western sk ... ty ... doesn’t go as much as the Russians)
        1. stasdolgov
          stasdolgov 8 December 2013 09: 37
          +6
          For general information:
          M-LB passed through the automotive department and were considered caterpillar tractors. In common people, drivers' mechanics were called tractor drivers.
          But military motorcycles passed through the armored department
    9. bbss
      bbss 7 December 2013 09: 54
      12
      Presses them. And history taught them nothing ...
      1. carbofo
        carbofo 7 December 2013 12: 29
        11
        Nobody listened to specialists, now they are suffering with Leopard, but fuel and lubricants do not need to be produced for our specifications and shells to buy.
        The use of "foreign" equipment from a technical point of view, implies the purchase of spare parts and consumables, or their licensed production, this is the technical side.
        Radio equipment is not compatible with the rest of the equipment, sighting systems and ergonomics of crew places do not meet the requirements.
        The modernization of equipment, the production or purchase of fuel and lubricants and consumables, the purchase of ammunition, it all costs money and even did not dare to spend money on the best but inconvenient tank for a European country, but this is of course political pressure, which is why there was such a decision.
        In this case, no one asked specialists.
        Perhaps this is after they found out what the T80 can do, having bought leopards and having ridden them for 20 years, they said that they say we will stretch 7 days against Russia in total :).
        Swedes of pragmatics, whatever they were talking about, we should send the t-72 there and say: guys, it’s necessary that this stern old man with a steel look, has become even more severe.
        I think that they will master.
        1. densh
          densh 7 December 2013 13: 29
          +9
          Finns use our equipment and do not complain, and neutrals are "spoiled".
          1. Nu daaaa ...
            Nu daaaa ... 7 December 2013 13: 51
            -5
            Uzhe davno spisyvali, na meste MiG-21 vzjali Hornet, na meste T-72 kupili Leopardy itd. Takaja vot praktika.
            1. carbofo
              carbofo 7 December 2013 16: 01
              +5
              http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D0%BD%D1
              %8B%D0%B5_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%A8%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0
              % B8
              BMP-1 modernized Pbv 501
              ML-TB upgraded Pbv 401A
              They make up a considerable part of armored vehicles.
              not including MANPADS, ATGMs and small arms.
              1. Nu daaaa ...
                Nu daaaa ... 8 December 2013 01: 10
                +3
                U finnov net Pbv 501 (eto u švedov) i Pbv 401A (tožhe u švedov), au švedov net rossiiskih MANPADS, ATGMs and small arms. Vy naverno ih razlichat ne možete? Jest u finnov CV-9030 FIN (102 št.) I BMP-2 (110 št). Na hranenie stojat MT-LB (deistvitelno horosaja mašina v naših usloviah). Russkie (sovetskie) gruzoviki davno spisyvali, BUK menjali na norvežkuju NASAMS II, iz strelkogogo ispolzujut seichas tolko NSV, PKM i PKT. I "Sergei"
                1. carbofo
                  carbofo 8 December 2013 03: 16
                  +1
                  Nu daaaa ...
                  I’m talking about Sweden, and if you didn’t notice a link to the Swedish Wiki there.
                  About MANPADS and anti-tank systems, I probably went too far, apparently misled the markings, they reminded me of something familiar, and even figs with them.
                  All the same, the army is not talking about anything, so Sverker Johanson is right;
                  Just why, in Sweden there is no oil :) and we are not Americans :) You won’t even send TYD there, it is already powerless anyway :)
                  1. Nu daaaa ...
                    Nu daaaa ... 8 December 2013 12: 13
                    +1
                    Just why, in Sweden there is no oil :) and we are not Americans :) You won’t even send TYD there, it is already powerless anyway :)



                    The last episode occurred on October 28, when three Russian bombers, accompanied by three aircraft, flew towards the Swedish border. The group was discovered over the Gulf of Finland and for an hour simulated attacks against Poland, the Baltic countries, and on the final stretch of the route over the southern tip of the island of Öland in Sweden.


                    http://vpk.name/news/100447_rossiiskie_bombardirovshiki_otrabatyivayut_udaryi_po
                    _shvecii_stranam_baltii_i_polshe__oficer_vvs_shvecii.html

                    Vam vidneje, est zachem ili net ... shvedy pochemu-to atak Leningradskogo oblasti ne repetirujut.
                    1. carbofo
                      carbofo 8 December 2013 12: 48
                      +7
                      Quote: Nu daaaa ...
                      Vam vidneje, est zachem ili net ... shvedy pochemu-to atak Leningradskogo oblasti ne repetirujut.

                      Please explain to me how it is possible to determine what a flying airplane does, attacks, imitates, or simply flies to the border, in order to fly along the border?
                      Do you seriously believe that this can be confidently determined?
                      The Swedes are not naive, in the first place they understand that we will not attack out of the blue because we are not Nazis or even Lithuanians or Poles.
                      Second, if their only bomber, if there is one, takes off and flies to Leningrad, they will be met far from the border of the targeting radar in combat mode, and in our airspace they will be on duty to intercept the squadron of interceptors, I’m not sure that the Scandinavian pilots have the courage to fly in a dense escort of interceptors under the tutelage of air defense radars.
                      Just imagine: you are flying an interceptor on the left, an interceptor on the right and an interceptor on the back, and at least 3 air defense batteries are looking at you carefully, and the floor of the warning system panel is lit red and screaming alarms, so only our pilots can fly.
                      And most importantly, we cover the city in which more than 10 people live, so I think the difference in approach to security is acceptable, the Scandinavians in a similar scenario risk fewer people, and they understand that such a provocation will cost them incredible problems.
                      Screaming screams, but everyone perfectly understands that ours began to fly actively, and we had in mind the screams of even the Japanese, so we will hear Swedes but there will be no reaction either we flew and we will fly, and we are not Americans, we never made direct provocations, not our method.
                      Repeat we do not violate the international borders of air defense of statesWe use the right to fly in international airspace and we do not prohibit others from using it, the level of control over flights even in international airspace is our right, we have the right to let a fighter-observer like every passing airplane.
                      All supposedly provocations on our part were exclusively in the international airspace, which is not prohibited, if there were any incursions into the air defense zone of another country, then it wasn’t prepared operations as Western countries did, as a rule these were ordinary mistakes of the crew or equipment, it’s all And next to the most sophisticated planes, NATO is constantly happening, how? but xs, but I don’t understand how a reconnaissance aircraft can get lost, it has dozens of instruments for determining its location, it can’t refuse all of this, not being an emergency, but just a navigation error.
                2. kotvov
                  kotvov 8 December 2013 13: 38
                  +3
                  you either write in Russian, or fuck off ,, European shushera ,,
                  1. Nu daaaa ...
                    Nu daaaa ... 9 December 2013 02: 10
                    0
                    A Vam na kursah likbeza naverno urok vežlivosti zabyli v programmu vkljuchit ...
            2. KCC
              KCC 7 December 2013 23: 44
              +3
              You have mixed up something, they write here in Russian, my dear.
            3. KCC
              KCC 7 December 2013 23: 44
              0
              You have mixed up something, they write here in Russian, my dear.
              1. carbofo
                carbofo 8 December 2013 14: 10
                +8
                Do not minus the person if he does not sin against the truth, you are depriving the stray of polemics, and therefore the opportunity to get answers!
                If a person is interested and has his own opinion different from ours, it’s not scary, you just need to explain our position, and let him think that breaking a stereotype and hostility is not the moment people often go for years.
                Everyone is mistaken in their views, even I am no exception, and this applies to everyone, everything is too complicated and it is very difficult to be objective.
                If you noticed recently, programs and interviews with Western emigrants who live and work in Russia began to appear frequently, for example, Tim Kerby and others, having lived their whole lives and often successful in the United States and other countries, they nevertheless linked their fate with Russia, not I think that this decision was spontaneous.
                There is such a proverb: patience and work - all will grind.
                I do not call for anything against your will, just read it carefully.
          2. es.d
            es.d 7 December 2013 22: 06
            +3
            Something like "we, we will fight - with captured (Russian) weapons." Forgot...
          3. Juleandr
            Juleandr 9 December 2013 01: 12
            +3
            Finns are practically no longer using Russian technology. The latest T72 tanks were decommissioned in 2010. The Finnish army still uses the BTR60 and BMP1 in small numbers and, at the end of the resource, are sent to the scrap. Russian tanks were replaced by Leopards2A4, instead of Russian armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, Western equipment was also purchased.
    10. Volodya Sibiryak
      Volodya Sibiryak 7 December 2013 10: 38
      +6
      Thanks to the author for the translation, it was interesting to learn about the history of "fellow countrymen" in Sweden.
    11. avt
      avt 7 December 2013 11: 01
      12
      good laughing And let och ... um! It is necessary for the zolotopogonny 3,14..lam to learn by heart, so that they do not talk about all kinds of crap about the fact that the T-72 is a modernized T-34. Well, I wish the designers not to rest on Soviet laurels and to take into account the shortcomings identified by our "probable neutral friends" and successfully eliminate them.
    12. Argon
      Argon 7 December 2013 11: 11
      21
      In general, the events described give the impression of a complex reconnaissance operation, for the extraction of information and their analysis concerning the technical potential (in the defense sphere) of a potential enemy. Today it is absolutely clear that the issue of putting a Russian tank into service with Sweden was not possible, primarily due to political reasons. Most likely the described "fuss" was initiated from Washington, and the stakes in the political game were quite high since the Swedes were forced to use their own warriors "in the dark." There are several reasons to put it this way; first, I doubt that the cost of owning the T-80 is lower than "Leopard", given the relatively low resource of the power plant of our machine. Secondly, the transition, or even the addition of a projectile of a "non-standard" caliber to the range of weapons, would cost Sweden a pretty penny, organizing its own production or dependence on supplies from a country with an unstable political regime, yes and the status of a "potential adversary" from Russia has never been removed by NATO. The foregoing refers to the engine and spare parts. I don’t dare to assess the behavior of the representatives of the Russian side in the events described. I will leave this right to the reader.
      1. bask
        bask 7 December 2013 12: 31
        +6
        The Swedes have centuries-old Russophobia.
        And then there was the opportunity to study the armored vehicles of a potential enemy.
        Quote: Argon
        Most likely the described "fuss" was initiated from Washington,

        Yes, the CIA and the state ... Dep ... worked clearly.
        But in the 90s in the early 2000s, almost all of Sweden’s defense enterprises entered international corporations controlled by the United States and Great Britain.
        BMP-CV90 is a family of armored combat vehicles developed by Alvis Hagglunds, now part of BAE Systems.

        The development of the CV90, began in 1984 according to the specifications laid down by the Swedish Defense Ministry, for the Swedish army, for the tracked modular platform and infantry fighting vehicles. Having high survivability and protection. Serial production began in 1993, and more than 1200 CV-90s for various purposes have been built.
        MO, gave TTX, for the production of infantry fighting vehicles, specifically for the Armed Forces of the country, not taking into account the low, passability of the CV-90, compared with the MT-LB.And after familiarizing with the latter, without making the design, chassis, CV-90 not any changes.
      2. carbofo
        carbofo 7 December 2013 12: 32
        +6
        It was a political decision, 100%, it just seems that the Swedes are neutral, they oh how dependent.
        As for the intelligence operation:
        Yes, it’s possible, it’s only confusing, then the secrets were sold by cars, so the delegation wouldn’t add anything new to the known, and they could study the T80 without leasing, especially since they didn’t carry out the tastiest tests, so it’s clear that -80 was not a fishing rod, although it is clear that intelligence was present there from before.
        Moreover, nothing prevented the Swedes from refusing us to purchase after all the tests.
      3. nerd.su
        nerd.su 7 December 2013 14: 11
        +1
        Quote: Argon
        Today it is absolutely clear that the issue of putting the Russian tank into the arsenal of Sweden was not possible primarily for political reasons.

        For what reasons was this impossible?
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 7 December 2013 15: 57
          +4
          I think that bask supplemented my statement regarding the independence of Sweden as a country, and the influence of the western kmm partners not there.

          But in the 90s in the early 2000s, almost all of Sweden’s defense enterprises entered international corporations controlled by the United States and Great Britain.

          We don’t forget about politics.
          This is the moment when I must say: Yes, my general.
          1. bask
            bask 7 December 2013 16: 14
            +3
            Quote: carbofo
            We don’t forget about politics.

            And about the story, too.
            The Swedes (I repeat) as in other things and the Poles, congenital rusobia.
            What ,, enemy ,, have Sweden. Who dreams day and night fool ,, to conquer the homeland of ABBA, the Swedish national team, juvenile law and child sex education. Who planned to attack this neutral and poor country and enslave the tolerant Swedes? Judging by the Swedish press and the cost of armaments is ,,, again we ,,, wassat.
            Sweden will join NATO in the near future.
            1. carbofo
              carbofo 7 December 2013 19: 11
              +2
              Quote: bask
              Sweden will join NATO in the near future.

              Fools in the whirlpool road.
            2. iConst
              iConst 7 December 2013 19: 37
              +1
              Quote: bask
              Sweden will join NATO in the near future.

              Turks have been in NATO for a thousand years ... And what?
              1. bask
                bask 7 December 2013 22: 46
                0
                Quote: iConst
                Turks have been in NATO for a thousand years ... And what?

                And the fact that they are NATO, the United States, South Korea and Israel, provide any almost the latest Western technology in the production of armored vehicles.
                List what over the past 5-7 years has been transferred and has already been produced at enterprises in Turkey.
                BMP Tulpar, tank Altay, armored personnel carrier ARMA 6 / 6,8 / 8, 155 mm self-propelled guns Firtina, armored personnel carrier Pars 4/4 6 / 6,8 / 8,10 / 10

                New Turkish armored vehicles: Ural 4/4, Cobra II, Navigator, etc ...
                Not counting the Navy, Air Force, Air Defense, ammunition.
                BTR Pars 4.4 /.
          2. nerd.su
            nerd.su 8 December 2013 21: 59
            0
            That is, almost 200 years of neutrality - nothing in front of the voice of the Washington Regional Committee? In my opinion you confuse Sweden with Estonia or Latvia smile

            You have to be realistic. Why do some of our generals love western military equipment? The reason is commonplace, capitalism, more price, more kickback. Swedes are also people and nothing human is alien to them.
            And intelligence ... Well, yes, most likely the test report somehow got into the United States. Nevertheless, in the same 1992, a few samples of the T-80u were purchased by Great Britain, and in 1994 a few 80s went to Morocco and, according to rumors, settled in the United States. This is intelligence.
            So the Swedes who honestly returned the tanks to us are the farthest from reconnaissance. It’s just that our people are already realistically equal with all countries with Poland and the Baltic states, the skill of analysis has been lost sad
            1. sapran
              sapran 8 December 2013 22: 21
              +3
              What what and Here you are all so attributed to the "rollback"? And it is corny to think that in the complex of necessary technical specifications it is proposed that what suits the customer more hard ?! Or is it necessary to breed "conspiracy"? When they offer a package that is relevant for more than 25 years after the conclusion of the contract, it is very good. and with the T-80U Foggy perspective and as a show of practice "kidalovo" as the plant and people were destroyed.
              1. nerd.su
                nerd.su 8 December 2013 23: 49
                +1
                Quote: sapran
                And it’s corny to think that in the complex of necessary TTZ It is proposed that it is more difficult for the customer to do it ?!

                Well, the article says in black and white - the decision was made without having tested the car completely. They just said on top - hang up. If not a rollback, then political pressure, the Swedes were in the process of joining the European Union. But the Swedes are not children, after all, they may have started it all in order to bring down the price of leopards. Or something else to cut a thread for yourself. So without conspiracy laughing
                And the fate of the plant is more likely a consequence of failure in Sweden.
      4. edge
        edge 8 December 2013 04: 45
        +1
        Quote: Argon
        The behavior of the representatives of the Russian side in the events described is not dare to evaluate-disdain.

        then everyone was euphoric: the slogan of the period of the Civil War was in effect - "abroad will help us" .... They helped. For a long time, we will unravel the result of this assistance, it is easier to eliminate the very concept of abroad and then there will be eternal peace (and the national elites in the Arctic North Sea will equip the route)
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 8 December 2013 14: 27
          0
          Quote: hert
          it’s easier to eliminate the concept of abroad itself and then there will be eternal peace

          Fundamental nonsense, this can not exist in the modern world, we do not have Eden.
          States must exist and should strive for a balance of national interests and not row everything for themselves as the United States, there must be international law mandatory for everyone, I emphasize FOR ALL, the conditions, forces and means to achieve this condition, no international crime should be closed, as in the case of a dead boy in the usa, raped by a norwegian woman in the UAE, everything should be investigated with the participation of the country where the crime was committed and the country the citizen of which the victim was and sentenced by the court The international trebunnal has been carried out, this is the model to which we must strive, of course I idealize.
          All states are differently dependent on certain goods, the borders allow restricting the flow of those goods whose value undermines their own production.
          For example, Bulgaria, an agrarian country that fed half of the USSR with canned vegetables, who are more than 35 years old probably remember Bulgarprodexport, they exported 80-85% of their agricultural products to the USSR, before the collapse of the USSR, now at least 70% of the same they are imported from turkey, cyprus, and other countries. What will they eat tomorrow?
          Fantastic books often mention the planetary government that governs the planet :) science fiction :), but I think we should strive for this, the planet is one, and it is our home, there will be no other.
          1. vober
            vober 9 December 2013 15: 07
            0
            "Science fiction books often mention the planetary government, which runs the planet :) science fiction writers :), but I think we need to strive for this, the planet is one, and it is our home, there will be no other."
            Well, well, just a planetary government already exists - an international financial oligarchy. Well, which is going to leave only the "golden billion" of the population and for this introduces the juvenile, family planning institutions, actively campaigns for the LGBT and chile-free communities.
            I’m afraid that they won’t accept you there, even if they strive - in their opinion, this one planet is their home, not yours.
            1. carbofo
              carbofo 9 December 2013 19: 05
              0
              Quote: vober
              in their opinion, this one planet is their home, not yours.

              The problem is that there are 2 solutions, to remove those who disagree or to build a system where they will be in the minority, the latter being the most difficult.
              Although after the first option you still have to build a system, and the starting balance will be even worse, so it will be difficult and long but reliable, well, do not forget about the first option if someone runs into horns.
    13. carbofo
      carbofo 7 December 2013 12: 31
      +3
      By the way, I see few good articles from Western sources about our technology, especially from Western training grounds where trophies were rolled in and all that.
      It would be interesting.
      1. bask
        bask 7 December 2013 13: 41
        +1
        Quote: carbofo
        By the way, I see few good articles from Western sources about our technology, especially from Western training grounds where trophies were rolled in and all that.
        It would be interesting.

        carofoof course, there are no articles from Western ranges about our armored vehicles.
        Each concern is a company promoting its products. Market Laws.
        But there are articles on Western sites about our technology.
        http://www.army-guide.com/rus/product2379.html
        http://www.armyrecognition.com/
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 7 December 2013 16: 06
          +1
          Quote: bask
          Western polygons articles about our armored vehicles, of course not

          I read prot34 and t-55 reviews from the Abernine test site.
          So it’s completely impossible to say that there is nothing.
          Just a few translated materials.
          Thank you for the links, but I do not read English.
          1. kotvov
            kotvov 8 December 2013 13: 45
            0
            try socrates, helps me with translations.
      2. 0255
        0255 7 December 2013 14: 06
        +5
        Quote: carbofo
        By the way, I see few good articles from Western sources about our technology, especially from Western training grounds where trophies were rolled in and all that.
        It would be interesting.

        You will not see many such articles. Unless the NATO team will declassify them in 50 years. Americans are reluctant to acknowledge the superiority of Soviet or Russian technology.
        The Americans are telling us that during the "Desert Storm" not a single Abrams was hit by the T-72, although the American military admitted that the Abrams from the T-72 were still knocked out, that the T-72 was a worthy enemy.
        What pins me is the statistics of the losses of the M60 during the "Desert Storm" - like the M60, 140 Iraqi tanks were knocked out, and there was not a single hit in the M60 at all. When writing their false statistics, they did not accidentally mix Abrams and M60 in places? )))
        Quote: carbofo
        It was a political decision, 100%, it just seems that the Swedes are neutral, they oh how dependent.
        As for the intelligence operation:
        Yes, it’s possible, it’s only confusing, then the secrets were sold by cars, so the delegation wouldn’t add anything new to the known, and they could study the T80 without leasing, especially since they didn’t carry out the tastiest tests, so it’s clear that -80 was not a fishing rod, although it is clear that intelligence was present there from before.
        Moreover, nothing prevented the Swedes from refusing us to purchase after all the tests.

        Of course this is a completely political decision. How will the Pentagon allow the Swedes to buy the T-72 and T-80?
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 7 December 2013 16: 15
          +6
          Quote: 0255
          Did they accidentally confuse Abrams and M60 in writing their false statistics? )))

          Most of those who write do not even have a distant idea of ​​what they are writing about, but they know for sure what to embellish and what to slander, and the honesty of the media has already become a dream, the only outlet for the whole world is ANNA-news and probably RT.
          As for the combat effectiveness of the Abrams and T-72 tanks in Iraq, the Americans are in no hurry to declassify anything, but now it’s clear that even in those single proven fire contacts, which is called without overwhelming superiority from the United States, the T-72 showed very good results. But the majority of the announced t-72s actually turned out to be the t-55 or t-62, and without dynamic protection or other means of protection other than armor, and often without a crew at all, a shooting gallery in a word.
          It is not surprising that they shot down the T-72 more than they were in the country at all.
          And we do not forget such facts as the loss of fire at times, for example, half of the losses were attributed to accidents, although the scraps of the aircraft hardly reached the base about the war in Vietnam.
          So the practice of understating losses at times for the United States is in the order of things.
          1. 0255
            0255 7 December 2013 19: 37
            +1
            It is not surprising that they shot down the T-72 more than they were in the country at all.

            this is normal wassat
      3. sapran
        sapran 8 December 2013 14: 40
        0
        What articles? The publication time is long gone.
        1. For tanks, reports on protection and mobility the period 1989-92 were shot in all projections of the T-72, T-80
        2. Later shooting of the T-80UD delivery (Belarus)
        3. Tests of the T-80 UD with the Drozd complex in the USA (delivery from Ukraine) It seems they did not shoot, but not a fact.
        4 On Aviation, what should I publish if a large part of the KB MIGA emigrated to Israel in 1993-97?
        4. With regards to the KB team on the topic "TOP", they also work on the topic of "python"
        So, almost in all directions.
        Something interesting will appear; new articles and reviews will appear ...
      4. densh
        densh 9 December 2013 16: 00
        0
        To give a positive mark, even a well-deserved one, to a competitor’s technique, this means to belittle one’s own. And who needs anti-advertising.
    14. mountain
      mountain 7 December 2013 12: 48
      +1
      Thanks to the author, the article is informative. Yes, we made a lot of mistakes, I hope they went to us for good. He who does not work does not make mistakes. Or does even more if it does not work.
      1. bask
        bask 7 December 2013 14: 12
        +3
        Quote: mountain
        from and does not make mistakes. Or does even more if it does not work.

        Now we need to fix it.
        The Swedes created a lightweight modular platform on the GSH, and a wheeled chassis.
        SEP MODULAR TACTICAL PLATFORM.
        Modularity in design, interchangeability, from which a wide range of armored combat vehicles can be assembled, both wheeled and tracked. SEP - from Swedish Splitterskyddad Enhets Plattform - "modular tactical platform".

        The mutual employment of the GSH units and the wheeled chassis reach 75%.
        It allows you to use SEP as a BMP / BTR for 12 infantrymen, a tractor, an ambulance, a missile launcher, a command post, a mine clearing machine, a radar, a reconnaissance vehicle, a chemical and radiation analysis and disinfection machine, a communications center, an electronic warfare machine and a self-propelled mortar.

        The ideal machine for our BMD-V.
        Now it's our specialistsBUY, STUDY, RELEASE IN THE TROOPS.
    15. Evkur
      Evkur 7 December 2013 12: 54
      +2
      Divorce on Shvecki :)
      1. smprofi
        smprofi 7 December 2013 18: 14
        +1
        Quote: Evkur
        Divorce on Shvecki :)

        hmm, you still know little about their divorces:
        Norwegians signed with the svejami in 2007 a contract. transferred more than half a billion (that's just unintelligible that: either the Euros, or the bugs). and, instead of a complete delivery in 2013, instead of 24 pcs, only photos have Acher piece of iron:



        full: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Forsvaret-dropper-milliardkontrakt-pa-ny

        tt-artilleri-7398853.html
    16. Neighbor
      Neighbor 7 December 2013 13: 05
      21
      "After all, this was the first time that Russian heavy weapons were demonstrated in the West." Not quite so, in the forty-fifth it is much clearer.
    17. karavay1982
      karavay1982 7 December 2013 13: 14
      +7
      It would be interesting to know if we would ever buy one sample of Ambram, Leclair, Leopard and Merkava. And picking at them, and even then let out a little book ...
      Weak ???
      Really constantly there are materials, as our NATO friends poke around in our military equipment.
      Have we become so shy?
      1. carbofo
        carbofo 7 December 2013 13: 22
        +1
        Quote: karavay1982
        Have we become so shy?

        Well, we just don’t talk about it :) And we have secured ourselves well.
        Incidentally, the Dynamic Armor was literally dragged from the whole tank during the Israel-Syria war, studied and evaluated, developed and applied in practice, ask the Syrian tankers, they will say that it’s good.
      2. sapran
        sapran 8 December 2013 15: 13
        0
        There are several closed boxes in Kubinka. Periodically from there, VNZ sent out spare parts and UDS for studying new products, samples of equipment, assemblies, and individual units. So in KISV (the former KVTIU there were sections of all the main tank diesels, a number of transmission elements) There was also something about Aviation.
    18. sergey72
      sergey72 7 December 2013 13: 40
      +5
      By the way, we’ll buy the same kind of sweets, the Swedes got acquainted with the Mi-28 ... Do you think that they didn’t share it with the Yankees?
      1. carbofo
        carbofo 8 December 2013 03: 19
        0
        Why study it, all the characteristics are known, I drove it into the computer as well.
    19. EvilLion
      EvilLion 7 December 2013 15: 16
      +3
      but, like all Russian tanks, it was created for attack, and not for war from a defensive position.


      Are there defensive tanks?
      1. 0255
        0255 7 December 2013 19: 35
        +2
        Quote: EvilLion
        but, like all Russian tanks, it was created for attack, and not for war from a defensive position.


        Are there defensive tanks?

        Europeans, on the other hand, consider the USSR and Russia terrible aggressors, allies of fascist Germany, rapists over peaceful Europeans, therefore, most likely, such conclusions were made about Soviet tanks.
        Of course, "tanks designed for attack, not defense" is complete nonsense fool
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 8 December 2013 03: 27
          +2
          There is a slightly mental difference in the assessment of techniques. If the equipment is designed for a comfortable stay for a considerable amount of time, then in the West they consider it to be defensive, or something like that.
          We never had such an approach due to the fact that we made tanks as fighting vehicles rather than crew accommodation, which is why they are considered an attack weapon not intended for long sitting but for attack.
          Something like that.
          I repeat that we are doing military equipment and the best in the world, a minimum of comfort, a maximum of combat potential, all our equipment has minimal comfort and high combat characteristics.
          This is precisely the USSR arms school.
    20. Jager
      Jager 7 December 2013 15: 26
      10
      Guys, what kind of reconnaissance operation? At that time, the Russian Federation was ruled by dollars (now the same, but less noticeably - hello to Serdyuk), they did not hesitate to sell such technologies and secrets that execution under the article "treason to the Motherland" would be a very mild and humane sentence.
      Licking the Swedish seat did not make sense without clear contractual obligations. We arrived, experienced, looked at a freebie - returned.
      I think the GHA emergency response is a crime and treason. How many weapons and technologies have been thrown, I’m generally silent about people.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 20 December 2013 23: 38
        0
        This is not intelligence. And its CONSEQUENCES. The collapse of the USSR - that’s intelligence. And winning the Cold War and trophies is not a sin to study. Won, of course, not the Swedes, but fully enjoyed the result.
    21. Dan Slav
      Dan Slav 7 December 2013 15: 53
      +3
      Very interesting.
      The Swedes are meticulous, meticulous and mean-spirited, but the technique is well recognized.
      However, they bought German. I think here politics is important. They always helped the Germans. It is enough to recall the Second World War and the behavior of the Swedes.
    22. smprofi
      smprofi 7 December 2013 16: 49
      +3
      Thanks for the interesting article.
      that's just
      The T-72 tank demonstrates “self-pulling” in a swamp near the Kalixlinjen defensive line. The log is hooked to the tracks by the caterpillars, tightened under the tank as they rotate, and serves as an additional lug. In the stowed position, a self-pulling log is usually attached to the stern of the tank.




      Is the Russian army so different from the Soviet?
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 8 December 2013 11: 01
        +9
        There is a mistake of mechanical water (inexperience), before overcoming this obstacle, it was necessary to put people off the armor and take them to a safe distance from the car.
        Further overcome the obstacle on the go.
        It was because of the people on the armor that the mechanical water was forced to overcome the obstacle at a speed insufficient for this, which led to the slip of the tracks on the rise and, as a result, to stuck.
        You can plant absolutely any car, the driver’s qualification is not to allow such situations, and if you got into the basement, the ability to get out of it.
        There was no need to use self-pulling in this situation because there was another tank in the area and its mech.vod came to the aid of his stupid comrade.
        I would also add that even from such a situation there was a way to get out on our own, but due to inexperience or lack of reason, the mechanical water was not able to use it.
        He incorrectly used the inertia of the tank when trying to get out by "swinging"
        and brought to the point that the water eroded the soil along a rut of movement and deepened it, the tracks clogged with mud due to slipping, burying all hopes of getting out on their own.
        And it was necessary to do this: Having climbed one of the slopes as much as possible, brake the tank at the edge, quickly switch to the other gear, put manual gas on the average speed, get off without slipping and maximize the speed of the car to try to jump out of this hole.
        1. stasdolgov
          stasdolgov 8 December 2013 11: 08
          +3
          As I understand from the video, the mechanic was asked to stay in this puddle for filming extreme mud. And getting out didn’t cost him anything. Just without bringing the tank to a drawdown, after the first three or four attempts, turn the car to the right and drive out along the less steep slope of the pit. Where later BMP passed.
          1. wanderer_032
            wanderer_032 8 December 2013 14: 51
            0
            You are mistaken dear.
            A guy with a walkie-talkie in his hand asks mech.water to drop them off in a place where "by land", he planted the car because he slowed down, fearing that the people sitting on the armor would throw off the tank when overcoming an obstacle (and he was not afraid for nothing, there were cases of falling from cars with serious fractures and even with the death of people, and to answer him that given the situation (the tank was hired to play airsoft, I can't even imagine such a thing in a nightmare how this is even possible and for what money), I would have to answer for this incident and a number of officials who turned it over).
            It is impossible to turn the car in such a situation (there is a serious danger of being left without tracks, they can fly off or burst from excessive load) and at the same time leave the tank out of motion and damage final drives.
            The consequences for mech.voda are the same as I wrote above.
            He belatedly made the right decision about the way to "swing", but could not fulfill it. The tank had already sat down on the bottom.
            An infantry fighting vehicle passed to the right of the place where the tank sat, it would have decided its mech.vod to overcome the obstacle on the track of the tank, the result would be the same.
            1. svp67
              svp67 8 December 2013 14: 54
              0
              Quote: wanderer_032
              It is impossible to turn the car in such a situation (
              A "dovorot" let's say?
              1. wanderer_032
                wanderer_032 8 December 2013 15: 12
                0
                In general, do not touch the levers, forget about them.
                You can’t widen the track, but you will only plant the car even more (tracks clogged with mud will not allow you to climb on the crest of the track), and in general, when overcoming it is better not to pull the levers, but to direct the car until it rises.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 8 December 2013 15: 19
                  0
                  Quote: wanderer_032
                  In general, do not touch the levers, forget about them.

                  Yeah, how could it be ... The tank moves back, until it starts to slip on the rise, after which it turns slightly and uses inertia, not on the track, climbs out of this hole ... This is a tank track - and here we will apply the principle of "movement along the serpentine", as in the mountains ... "snake"
                  1. wanderer_032
                    wanderer_032 8 December 2013 15: 46
                    +3
                    Only in the mountains the soil is solid, but here it is viscous + water over the ears.
                    Started off, the lead goose started to dovarul in the porridge, the car suffered a lateral slide, from a sharp turn the goose flew in and congratulate you in full shit, get in touch with the bosses, get a cradle, they send you help and you pull out amicably and hard for three or four hours immobilized tank receiving friendly denticles from your comrades, put an additional goose and pull it for another hour, arrive at the unit, get a cradle from the head of the KTP, from the deputy technician, from the platoon commander, from the company commander, etc., etc., put down in the evening to comrades, go sleep.
                    And in the morning the company commander calls you, you go to the unit commander and get the cradle from him.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 8 December 2013 15: 56
                      0
                      Quote: wanderer_032
                      Only in the mountains is the soil solid
                      Watch the video ... the fur deviated a third of the hull to the right, it had not to spin with a shuttle, but to move the car a little to the left and maybe jump out ... it looks like the "ford" was there ... laughing
                      1. wanderer_032
                        wanderer_032 8 December 2013 16: 05
                        0
                        Where to the left?
                        Look carefully for yourself, the width of that "ditch" is practically two car bodies.
                        This would have given him nothing but a larger tank jam.
                        Deviation when trying to jump out of this trap could be caused by a slipping of one of the goose.
                        1. svp67
                          svp67 8 December 2013 17: 58
                          0
                          Quote: wanderer_032
                          Where to the left?

                          In a rut, closer to the bushes, where the exit had already been smoothed, he took to the right to unload the "landing" and began to "fill" this path, so much so that the right wing liner lifted, which is not surprising, since he did not resist into the "hewn" bank, and with the left one all the rules ... and the soil is relatively normal, how much he "shuttle" until he buried himself ... Such dirt, a nice thing for a T64 caterpillar, it would push the whole through the "holes" and hold the clutch would be longer ...
                        2. wanderer_032
                          wanderer_032 8 December 2013 18: 44
                          +1
                          You can’t take it to the left, because if you noticed a tank in the ditch, on the right side banked (therefore, the right track is deeper).
                          Now consider in motion:
                          the tank went s / h, stood on a slope, the mech put the left lever in the 1st position, the tank went forward, gas, the right goose skid trying to climb the ridge track, cannot push it, and when it is resisted flies out (dropping the 1st and 2nd support the skating rink with the balancer axis and the sloth at the same time as an option, and if not, then strongly their kotsaya with the crests of the tracks), the final drive may also suffer.
                          What will happen to mehan I wrote above, only in this case he will not get rid of the cots.
                          Option 2: driving on a slope, stopping, left leverage in 1st position, moving off, the tank gradually changed direction to the left, left leverage forward, gas, the left side quickly starts to rise, the mechanic sits on a camping hatch with an open hatch, slurry it flows into the open hatch, filling the mech from head to toe and everything is separate, too, the right goose skidding, the left goose too, the tank sticks into the ground of the opposite slope and stalls.
                          Result: after bathing in the mud, the mechanic climbs out, pulls out the cables and waits for help.
                        3. svp67
                          svp67 9 December 2013 10: 35
                          0
                          This is a stream ... And it’s necessary to the left, but it doesn’t work, it just pulls it down to the right ...
                          Quote: wanderer_032
                          cannot crush it, and when it is resisted, it flies out (dropping the 1st and 2nd support rollers from the axis of the balancer and the sloth at the same time as an option, and if not, then they will strongly kottsya by the crests of the tracks), the final drive may also suffer.

                          On the T72 it is almost "fast-paced", I have never seen something like that, I have not even heard that this would happen on them and on the T80. In the forest - on stumps, in the mountains - on stones YES, and then the caterpillar vomited more, but this scenario is for T64 ...
                          the tank went s / x, stood on a slope, the mechanic puts the left lever in 1st
                          This can only be done on the T54, T55, T62 ... On this machine, it’s not much different ... when working with the lever, the mech-water turns the Onboard Gearbox one step down or in 1st gear and gearbox ZX, it slows down the track ...
    23. smprofi
      smprofi 8 December 2013 16: 16
      0
      Quote: wanderer_032
      You can plant absolutely any car, the driver’s qualification is not to allow such situations, and if you got into the basement, the ability to get out of it.

      absolutely agree.
      and I’m not going to argue with the other just because there is no personal experience in driving tracked vehicles (although I saw how they sit on their belly and how they get out).
      in fact, this is not the case. I gave a quote not in vain (it was necessary to highlight)
      In the stowed position, the log for self-extraction is usually attached to the stern of the tank.

      In Soviet times, I saw them in the SNR and PU, not to mention tanks.
      but here: there is no log on either the first or second tank. and on the BMP too.
      in fact, I had this in mind when I wrote a comment.
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 8 December 2013 16: 40
        +1
        Brackets for attaching the log are on both tanks.
        Why there are no logs themselves, the question is of course interesting.
        They could be used on driving lessons, where they were torn with tracks to an unsuitable condition (however, cutting a suitable forest is not difficult, sawing is included in the spare parts of each machine, as well as fastenings).
        If all this is not there, it speaks of the gouging of the crews, their superiors, as well as the bad situation in the unit as a whole.
        What is not surprising if we see for what purposes in this part they use the entrusted equipment, and the level of training of personnel.
  • Lesnik
    Lesnik 8 December 2013 15: 00
    +1
    Some airsoft players laughing
  • vober
    vober 9 December 2013 15: 29
    0
    Eh, the tank’s driver didn’t have to deepen the pit with buildup in it, but rather move back to disperse it and then the inertia of movement would be enough to climb the clay bank. Probably never puddled by car. :-))
  • killganoff
    killganoff 7 December 2013 17: 46
    +3
    And our T-80 is undeservedly removed from armament.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 8 December 2013 11: 28
      0
      Well, they need to be quietly transported to the north, otherwise the war for the Arctic ...
  • Archibald
    Archibald 7 December 2013 18: 03
    +1
    I especially liked about the deputy. Director of the plant, with a growth of 1 meter. Interestingly, is this a translation error, or is it so in the original? Although no wonder, they had to drink, see seriously.
  • gallville
    gallville 7 December 2013 18: 10
    +3
    The choice of a tank also depends on the concept of using this type of troops. Not surprisingly, having a Western concept, a Western machine was chosen.
    There is some pride in the massive use of MTLB by both Western and Middle Eastern countries. This is truly a hard worker of the war to which our journalists pay minimal attention. although the advantages of the machine are unique, it is able to work as in the hot climate of Iraq:
    Iraq bought 500 MT-LB multipurpose transporters from Bulgaria The contract for the supply of armored personnel carriers was concluded on May 31, 2012.
    So in the cold climate of Finland, and the indicated 800 pcs. in an article in Sweden.
    In the Russian troops, the MTLBs are in service with the northern and mountain rifle divisions. The car has proven itself particularly well in Chechnya with excellent maintainability, phenomenal cross-country ability and ease of use.
    Whether Kurganets-25 will be able to replace this machine by itself or whether it will be necessary to create a special machine for the Arctic and mountain brigades is not known (although according to rumors of the Internet, work is being done on a separate platform).
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 7 December 2013 18: 12
    +1
    Very useful stuff. The eyes of wealthy Swedes on the Soviet armored vehicles they tested under extreme conditions are expensive! I feel pride for the Soviet tank builders!
  • Stinger
    Stinger 7 December 2013 18: 33
    +1
    After a three-hour flight, the delegation landed in Omsk, where it was met by the deputy director of the plant, a man of short stature (about 1 m)
    And if there were 2 meters? They would faint altogether.
  • EdwardTich68
    EdwardTich68 7 December 2013 19: 03
    +1
    This is how the Western military-industrial complex, despite its clear superiority, prefers the Leopard anti-tank system
  • Cruorvult
    Cruorvult 7 December 2013 20: 10
    +2
    Quote: Sergey Sitnikov
    you are like a child))) - you see only good and evil, black and white in those years in Omsk the t-95 was already in the drawings and blocks but there was no money for the prototype in N. Tagil there were already 2 t-90 in the tests it was just necessary money and all


    In Omsk, the T-95 was never developed, they were developing object 640 "black eagle", which, due to the collapse, was never finished.

    Secondly, after the collapse, one of the Chenush sold 80y and Tunguska geyroppe. One of the reasons for removing it from service well, and + capacity is almost half a tank.
  • poquello
    poquello 7 December 2013 21: 18
    +1
    And I kept wondering what the Swedes have been barking at us lately, and we flew there nearby - and fell silent. Looks sniffed at our old equipment and began to be afraid.
  • klirens
    klirens 8 December 2013 01: 49
    0
    Quote from the article "This coating also proved to be effective protection against secondary fragments when hit by HEAT shells of small calibers."

    Is this a translation error or how to understand?
  • stasdolgov
    stasdolgov 8 December 2013 03: 02
    +4
    The article mentions MT-LBU and even says that he is "on the press shot", and so there is not a single photo of this car in the article. And it looks like this:
  • stasdolgov
    stasdolgov 8 December 2013 03: 24
    +3
    Quote: Jager
    I think the GHA emergency response is a crime and treason. How many weapons and technologies have been thrown, I’m generally silent about people.

    1. GSVG was not withdrawn. the group after the unification of 2 Germany became known as the Western Group of Forces (Western Group of Forces).
    2. Neither weapons nor technology were thrown in Germany. Everything was routinely loaded into echelons and brought to the territory of the CIS in prepared towns.
    3. Sold equipment in service with the GDR and the Warsaw Pact countries.

    I served in the 154th Separate Anti-Tank Artillery Division (20th Army, Uterbog). They brought us in 1992 near Alma-Ata. Part of us and the adjacent artillery brigade are still in the same condition as on the day of withdrawal. Nobody mastered it. Everything was overgrown with weeds, but no one looted. They threw away that there was no sense to carry. He personally led the fighters when they burned boxes of shells and buried several dozen bags of cement in the ground.
  • wanderer_032
    wanderer_032 8 December 2013 11: 21
    +2
    If there was a need to conduct tests for the Swedes according to their program, then it could be done at training grounds in the Leningrad region in similar climatic conditions in Sweden.
    And the test results (documentation) should be allowed to be exported only after the signing of the purchase contract.
    In general, I do not like this idea with the sale of T-80U tanks, in principle.
    They can be used for yourself (for example, in the extreme north), because the gas turbine engine does not require prolonged warm-up at startup, at low temperatures.
    On the 80s, you only need to unify armaments, SLAs and AZs with UVZ tanks, and the chassis will still serve (the Arctic on the nose).
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 December 2013 11: 41
      +2
      Quote: wanderer_032
      In general, I do not like this idea with the sale of T-80U tanks, in principle.

      Better to sell than to cut. And so now the T-80U depict the enemy in the exercises of the South Korean troops, are in service with Cyprus.
      Also, the main performance characteristics of the T-80U were shown at the tender of the Greek contract.
    2. sapran
      sapran 8 December 2013 15: 54
      +1
      Wanderer Motherland-mother decided to get rid of the legacy of Leningrad-Omsk in the next year or two. Nothing should remind you of an alternative to UVZ. Vaughn scheduled them to be removed from service. The fact that 140 T80 UD and about 2000 units of T-64 are prepared for "drank" is normal (they are not local). Only not in a businesslike way. It would be possible to agree on the sale of this scrap metal to Ukraine (if it had a government and not a "thief") but here, as in a joke, ... if she died, she died!
      1. wanderer_032
        wanderer_032 8 December 2013 16: 55
        +2
        I will never forgive the Yeltsin-Putin reptiles (I myself am from Omsk and now live here and will live until I die).
        To destroy such a plant that was rattling the whole world, whose engineers and workers had not seen money for months and years, and in order to live, they worked somewhere and could hold on until the last, until it was pressed.
        Meanwhile, the creatures from the authorities were selling the factory in pieces, good German machines and in general most of the workable equipment disappeared in an unknown direction. And they licked the backside of Moscow, and lay in front of the foreigners.
  • moskal68
    moskal68 8 December 2013 12: 48
    0
    Sorry, mu, but isn't the Swedes armed with such a funny tank without a turret? Does he have a gun rigidly fixed in the casing and aiming by turning the casing?
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 December 2013 12: 54
      +2
      Quote: 68
      Sorry, mu, but isn't the Swedes armed with such a funny tank without a turret?

      WAS
    2. Kars
      Kars 8 December 2013 13: 00
      +1
      Then they decided to buy the Leopards.
      1. svp67
        svp67 8 December 2013 13: 52
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        Then they decided to buy the Leopards.

        The Swedes are generally big "tank originals", let's leave the "crazy" "STERVachka", but they have such a prototype in their "piggy bank" ...
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 December 2013 13: 55
          +2
          Swedes in many industries originals, this is not to be taken away from them.
          1. svp67
            svp67 8 December 2013 13: 59
            0
            Quote: Kars
            -that they do not take away.

            Precisely, waiting for the Russians on T80 and T90, they even planted their "GAI" on "Leopards" ... belay
            1. Kars
              Kars 8 December 2013 14: 12
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              Exactly, expecting Russians on the T80 and T90

              Prescribe speeding tickets?
              1. svp67
                svp67 8 December 2013 14: 15
                +2
                Quote: Kars
                Prescribe speeding tickets?
                BOPS ...
                And to help them there is such a "behu", as they are not afraid to transport their soldiers under this "saucepan", in the same place any "Chernobyl" will seem like a toy ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars 8 December 2013 14: 18
                  +2
                  Quote: svp67
                  carry their soldiers under this "saucepan"

                  And how else to keep the ZSU?
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 8 December 2013 14: 26
                    +2
                    Quote: Kars
                    And how else to keep the ZSU?

                    Yes, the fact of the matter is that they do not have a ZSU ... Here is another option, already with a larger gun ... Radar's "diagrams" are different from ZSU - not "to the sky", but along "the ground ", that is, the crew gets more ...
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 8 December 2013 14: 37
                      +1
                      Quote: svp67
                      Yes, the fact of the matter is that they do not have ZSU ..

                      It’s not ZSU.
                      Quote: svp67
                      radars, the "diagrams" are different from the ZSU - not "into the sky"

                      and you don’t see anything - .. saucepan .. it's just a fairing made of radiolucent plastic.


                      In the Swedish army it was anti-aircraft
                      CV 9040 Anti-Aircraft installations
                      Viel "or Lvkv 90. Development
                      started in the late 80s.
                      prototypes were completed in 1991
                      in the same year were held
                      full-scale tests.
                      batch of 27 anti-aircraft installations
                      CV9040AAV was released at the end
                      90s and this is the only
                      self-propelled anti-aircraft gun,
                      which is in service
                      the Swedish army to this day.
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 8 December 2013 14: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        and this is the only
                        self-propelled anti-aircraft gun,
                        which is in service
                        the Swedish army to this day.

                        Honestly, I almost do not have information about their ZSU, but I can definitely say that on the second photo the gun is MUCH bigger than 40mm and it’s hardly intended to deal with air targets ... and this is clearly not a 40mm Strv 90LV
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 8 December 2013 14: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        MUCH bigger than 40mm

                        There is not exactly 40 mm, but as I understand it is a flame arrester.


                        By the way, the question is a bit personal. That you are a tanker I know, and that I’m pretty sure the officer. But what souvenirs did you unscrew from the tank?
                        I personally brought everything before it turned out, starting from horns to the machine.
                      3. sapran
                        sapran 8 December 2013 15: 27
                        +1
                        usually the "dimensions" of "Potdon" and "Glass" (they beat for the last one!) You can cleanly so that there would be a "tower key" and in memory of the personnel - a rammer (manual) (variations of the rammer depend on the DMB's fantasy)
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 8 December 2013 15: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: sapran
                        "dimensions" "Potdon" and "Glass"

                        Is it the headlights? otherwise I'm weak with tank slang. Besides Cheburashki I don’t know anything.
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 8 December 2013 14: 59
                    +1
                    ______________
              2. Lesnik
                Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 48
                0
                And what can you say about the charts of this device (Zoo 2) wink
                1. smprofi
                  smprofi 8 December 2013 16: 53
                  0
                  Quote: Forestman
                  And what about the diagrams of this device?

                  but nothing, there is a headlamp. side and back petals are minimal there
              3. smprofi
                smprofi 8 December 2013 16: 49
                0
                Quote: svp67
                For radars, the "diagrams" are different from the ZSU - not "in the sky", but along the "ground"

                the directional pattern of the antenna, in general, depends on the type of antenna, and not on the "specialization".
                Lvkv 90 uses the PS-95 radar (Thomson CSF Harfang). plainly no data, but most likely there is an ordinary parabola. and the radiation pattern is approximately the same (the figure shows a horizontal plane, in a vertical plane it is similar, i.e. in the volume somewhere it looks like a cigar, only narrow)



                so, if the crew receives anything, it’s not from the antenna, but, perhaps, from the equipment located inside. and then only with illiterate design and not observing elementary shielding.
                1. STALGRAD76
                  STALGRAD76 9 December 2013 11: 53
                  0
                  Ashamed comrades, one 9S18, Sotsku from "BUK" called "a zoo", the second with the dumbest diagram was ridiculous.
            2. Lesnik
              Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 49
              0
              Kars is READ TO READ AGAIN !!! drinks
              1. Kars
                Kars 8 December 2013 14: 59
                +2
                I am also happy to write)))
          2. Kars
            Kars 8 December 2013 14: 20
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            And to help them here is such a "behu",

            not particularly impressive. GAI Dubai look at them from high.
            1. svp67
              svp67 8 December 2013 14: 34
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              not particularly impressive. GAI Dubai look at them from high.

              Here's how to learn how to "stop" the reckless ones, then let them watch ...



              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 8 December 2013 15: 00
                +4
                ........................................
      2. Lesnik
        Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 46
        0
        Waiting for Russo tourist ???? laughing
      3. Lesnik
        Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 50
        0
        Traffic cop dream laughing
        1. Lesnik
          Lesnik 8 December 2013 14: 58
          0
          The site is buggy mixed up comments negative
  • sapran
    sapran 8 December 2013 15: 57
    +1
    The Leopard 2A5 is a standard tank for Western Europe. Absolutely satisfied with them and there is nothing to do here with tears ... The buyer is always right.
  • svp67
    svp67 8 December 2013 18: 13
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Then they decided to buy the Leopards.

    Because the tank is worth admitting impressive ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 8 December 2013 19: 37
      +1
      I prefer Challenger 2
      1. svp67
        svp67 9 December 2013 10: 43
        0
        Quote: Kars
        I prefer Challenger 2

        I agree with you, this tank is "extreme solutions" in almost everything, but alas, it is worse than "Leo2", the Angles "calmed down" early and lost first place.
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 December 2013 11: 33
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          but alas it is worse than "Leo2", the Angles "calmed down" early and lost first place.

          And why is it worse?
          1. svp67
            svp67 10 December 2013 00: 52
            0
            Quote: Kars
            And why is it worse?

            Well, at least by the fact that he did not let the English military surpass others in the competition "For the prize of the Canadian army" and he lost to LEO-2 and CLEAN ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 01: 56
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              "For the prize of the Canadian army" and then he lost to LEO-2 and CLEAN ..

              Tanks were not created for games.
              1. svp67
                svp67 10 December 2013 02: 08
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                Tanks were not created for games.
                Well, this is not a game either, there tanks solved quite complex fire tasks directly related to their combat properties, for example, hit a target as far as possible and the first three places were occupied by crews on Leo2, and this says a lot, in particular about quality guns, shells, sighting systems and SLAs in general.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 10 December 2013 02: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: svp67
                  Well this is not a game

                  When was the last time they were held? In my opinion with Challenger 2, the Leopards did not compete.
          2. svp67
            svp67 10 December 2013 00: 58
            0
            Quote: Kars
            And why is it worse?

            Watch the video, the tank is clearly not enough thrust-weight ratio ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 December 2013 01: 55
              +1
              Well, he is certainly not a Formula One car (even though there is an engine for 1.5 thousand)
              the British always put mobility in last place.

              And it would be necessary to look at the dynamics of the latest version of the Leopard, otherwise the A6 is very modestly armored.
  • svp67
    svp67 8 December 2013 13: 00
    +4
    Quote: 68
    Does he have a gun rigidly fixed in the casing and aiming by turning the casing?
    It is not entirely true, there is also an opportunity to raise and lower the stern and bow - carrying out vertical guidance ... And it is not a tank, by and large - a self-propelled artillery "hunter"
  • carbofo
    carbofo 8 December 2013 15: 17
    +2
    By the way, it’s not a funny, rather technically advanced car at that time, it’s just that the time the Self-propelled gun has passed, and so is a good example of a competent technical embodiment.
    As an ambush fighter, he had great potential, but his time was gone, with the advent of MBT.
    1. Crang
      Crang 8 December 2013 19: 18
      0
      The Strv-103 was also an MBT, just a different, original layout. It was even modernized. The main disadvantage of this tank is the inability to aim fire on the move, turns it in fact into a tank destroyer.
  • smprofi
    smprofi 8 December 2013 16: 21
    +2
    Quote: 68
    the Swedes are armed with such a funny tank

    Strv.103 interesting contraption (but not funny at all)



    1. Kars
      Kars 8 December 2013 16: 30
      +2
      One thing is not clear to me. Okay, horizontally they firmly fixed it, but is it really so critical for the MZ to swing the trunk in the vertical plane? Well, at least 5-10 degrees.
      1. sapran
        sapran 8 December 2013 16: 41
        +1
        For this type YES. For the type used in the Navy, no. But if you look at the dimensions of the AZ (MZ), then everything will become clear as daylight. Swede --- a car to hold the defile for this and the machine is worth it if you have to repeat it from the first one you didn’t ask, and then let them steam in attempts to bypass the "jam" in the narrowness.
        1. Kars
          Kars 8 December 2013 16: 55
          +2
          Quote: sapran
          For this type of YES.

          And what kind of type is it? All the same, I think we could come up with something. Even if it was like on Soviet tanks with a constant loading angle.
          Quote: sapran
          if from the first you didn’t ask, you need to have time to do a repeat

          And if you didn’t get there, then here it is necessary not only horizontally but also vertically with a swing body.
          1. sapran
            sapran 8 December 2013 17: 02
            +1
            if their memory serves them the "conveyor belt"
            He shakes the body and this does not affect the charging process.
            It is simple and relatively reliable. This is the concept and further development of Hetzer from the Second World War. Then they realized the mistake, returned to the usual tanks, But whoever doesn’t try will not make a mistake.
            1. Kars
              Kars 8 December 2013 17: 31
              +1
              Quote: sapran
              conveyor belt memory

              They write about the store, three stores for different types of ammunition.


              Quote: sapran
              It shakes the case and it does not affect the charging process

              this is understandable - everything is fixed there, which I don’t like.
              Quote: sapran
              It is simple and relatively reliable.

              I would not say that it is simple. Two engines, including a gas turbine engine. Two equivalent control posts allowing shuttle movement. A machine gun with remote control.
          2. carbofo
            carbofo 9 December 2013 11: 21
            0
            Quote: Kars
            And if you didn’t get there, then here it is necessary not only horizontally but also vertically with a swing body.

            You look at the year, then no one had automatic loaders with such characteristics except us!
            So the Swedes are generally well done, although the approach is dubious :)
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 8 December 2013 18: 04
      0
      Damn, here they are kicking their tank, then! Very valuable movie!
  • stasdolgov
    stasdolgov 8 December 2013 14: 53
    +2
    BL I !!!! What did the discussion of the normal article turn into !!! exchange addresses and flood in your mails!
    1. carbofo
      carbofo 9 December 2013 11: 24
      +3
      This is Russia son :).
      On the forum: Photograph of oral sex in x-rays, in the comments of dentists on the installation of pins in the teeth.
      1. STALGRAD76
        STALGRAD76 9 December 2013 11: 56
        0
        Moreover, knowledgefully clever, usually idiots with a higher Internet education angry
        1. carbofo
          carbofo 9 December 2013 19: 00
          +1
          STALGRAD76
          Not a fact, can you identify my education ??
          Don't speak Russian, I have it so-so.
  • coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 11 December 2013 16: 06
    0
    Thank you, it’s very interesting! I think if the Swedes got the ship or plane under the same circumstances, then they would draw conclusions similar to those of the tank. We have weapons in the first place, they have comfort.
  • slovak007
    slovak007 12 December 2013 19: 14
    +1
    "The Swedes were surprised by the openness of the Russians, which made it possible to study and photograph all the details of the T-80U."

    "Russia is a generous soul." / As an advertisement / :)