Military Review

Guns with oil: questions of the defense capability of potential members of the CU in Central Asia

60

When Harrison Ford played the role of the President of the United States, the main part of the troubles of his hero on the script of the film was associated with the span over the territory of Kazakhstan. The number one board was captured by some Kazakhstani terrorists, MiGs with unidentified marks on the wings attacked the plane ... The President (that is, of course, not the President, but Harrison Ford) dodged enemy missiles with the help of aerobatics. Personally at the helm, since he himself is a pilot and a true hero of the Vietnam War. Ford also accomplished many other exploits. Jokes, but his role in the film “President’s Plane” was best recognized by the American nation’s on-screen leader. history movie.


Americans have the right to create a heroic epic about their leaders, but why does Kazakhstan still figure here? Such adventures of the President of the United States could theoretically be presented somewhere in the region of Somalia. Yes, Americans are not too interested in the outside world, sometimes it even leads to incidents like Kyrgyzstan. But Kazakhstan? Yes, a small clarification: the film "President's Plane" was shot in 1997 year.

Naturally, sixteen years later, the location of such a film would be different. Hollywood feels subtle and momentary mood of the State Department, and the nuances of international politics. And today, if Kazakhstan’s moderate criticism sounds, it alternates with praise or unobtrusive requests for assistance in implementing the American strategy in Central Asia. Kazakhstan is a state with which it is impossible not to reckon with in the region. And the American president, if he suddenly decides to fly over the territory of the republic (for peaceful purposes), is not exactly threatened by the attack of terrorists or enemy aircraft. In general, Kazakhstan is a stable state economically, politically and militarily.

The same is hard to say about the other two Central Asian republics that claim membership in the Customs Union. I mean Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Their stability is a big question. How can we make sure that even the next sixteen years have disappeared even a hint that Central Asia may be a suitable film set for a Hollywood action movie?

Militarization to the limit

Everyone knows the expression of Napoleon that the army (his or someone else's) will still have to feed. However, estimates of how much to allocate for feeding the army and where the golden mean of defense spending is located, vary considerably. For example, in NATO there is a norm: member countries must spend at least 2% of their GDP on the armed forces. Better if more. The alliance leader, the United States, is financing the army at 4,4% of GDP. At the same time, a number of NATO states are not able or even going to meet the two percent standard. Approximately in the same range are military spending and the CSTO countries. One, two, less often - three percent of GDP.

Are there enough indicators for potential members of the Customs Union in Central Asia? The GDP of Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan at par is slightly less than 7 billion dollars for each republic. You can calculate how much will remain in the army, if we limit ourselves to the traditional share of expenses. One hundred million dollars? Two hundred?

In fact, the republic’s military budgets are even smaller; they amount to modest amounts of tens of millions of dollars. We put them in the numerator, and in the denominator we write down the size of the territory, proximity to Afghanistan and internal instability. The result is disappointing: at the slightest disruption of the political balance in the region, the government and the president can count on salvation only on the territory of the Russian military base. If you have time to get there. The authoritarian power vertical only seems invulnerable, in fact it can break at any inopportune moment. If it is not backed by real power.

The problem is, it must be solved. The first step was taken about a year ago, when Moscow informed Bishkek and Dushanbe about the possibility of allocating half a billion dollars in military spending. Free of charge. The proposed amount is fourteen times greater than the military budgets of the two republics taken together; the main goal of the program is to re-equip the Tajik and Kyrgyz armies. The package also includes an expanded proposal for training the Central Asian military in the universities of the Russian Federation. The program was supposed to be expressed in concrete actions already in the summer of 2013, but it slowed down due to the geopolitical fluctuations of the Kyrgyz and Tajik elites. But next year, apparently, will begin.

This is a good start, but then the Central Asian republics should move on their own. Nor can we count on a hypothetical creation of collective armed forces — the idea is good, but it is unlikely to become a reality in the foreseeable future. Own military spending in Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan should increase by at least an order of magnitude.

Perhaps the pace of militarization should be linked to economic growth and Eurasian integration. You join the Union - you agree, conditionally, to direct a third of GDP growth to the needs of the army. Every year. And so - ten to fifteen years in a row.

Of course, such a policy is very painful for poor countries. Not enough for the most basic, and here there is still growing spending on the military. But there is no alternative. More precisely, it is, however, citizens of Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan can pay much more for savings on the army.

Army being will determine the Central Asian consciousness

Thanks to the anti-Soviet propaganda of the end of 80, we are well aware of what harmful militarization is. Publicist polemicists cried out to feelings and numbers: “Guns instead of butter - how much can you?” “Stop spending 40% of GDP on the defense industry,” etc.

The Soviet military-industrial complex really cost the people dearly, but not so much. The real expenses of the military sphere in the period from the beginning of 50's to the end of 80's were in the range of 5 – 15% of GDP, gradually decreasing from the time of the late Stalin to the early Gorbachev. In the era of Brezhnev stagnation, the army was eating 6 – 7% of GDP. Of course, this is a lot, but it was enough for both guns and oil.

Let's return to our Central Asian partners. Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan are interested in strengthening the army, not only because this is demanded by the interests of military-political security. The military also plays a special social role. Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, having inherited from the Soviet era a fairly modern (conventionally European) model of organization of society and the state, are now on the way to the roots. That is, to feudalism, the former, pre-Soviet and pre-Russian foundations. Who or what will become a barrier to the archaization of society? The army may well become such an institution.

It is the army that often serves as a driver for modernization. Historical examples can be strung together in bundles, starting with the Russian Empire and ending with modern Turkey, as well as with many Arab countries. In the latter, the military is the only force that keeps these countries from returning to the era of barbarism.

This phenomenon is quite understandable. Virtually any army is built on modern and fairly standardized principles; the traditionalist culture of an archaic society is alien to it. The device of a modern division somewhere in Pakistan is not much different from the military unit of the Bundeswehr. In any case, it differs much less than the structure of German and Pakistani society. And being determines consciousness. The existence of the army itself has a major impact on society. By increasing the proportion of the army in society, we automatically increase and influence.

Special mention deserves the place of training future Tajik and Kyrgyz officers. It is clear that this is not where children of post-Soviet oligarchs and senior government officials are studying, but in Russian universities. Perhaps this is not the most important factor, but the army elite will be different. And it makes sense to make every effort so that it becomes quite influential.

The experience of the last years of the USSR is more than eloquent: when abandoning guns, the oil becomes not more, but less. For members of the CU (present and future) it makes sense to remember this rule of political mathematics.
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60 comments
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  1. 1c-inform-city
    1c-inform-city 4 December 2013 09: 09
    11
    In the main, I agree with the author of the oil that it is really getting smaller or it completely disappears.
    1. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 4 December 2013 16: 30
      +6
      Kyrgyz people, well, Tajiks need the air right now, a true leader, a patriot of the country who is well acquainted with the geopolitical state of the country, as well as all the international processes of recent years that are taking place on the world stage.

      You need to choose the right strategic and political partner (Russia), and slowly with his help to squeeze out other enemies who are trying to create bases (USA), chop off a piece of land and resources (China), create a caliphate (Taliban of Afghanistan) and so on.

      Firstly, this decision will unite the CIS countries, together they will become stronger and in time able to organize a collective rebuff. It will also save these countries from a slow slide in the era of feudal relations with economic decline, on the contrary, it will create all the prerequisites for Eurasian integration.
  2. tilovaykrisa
    tilovaykrisa 4 December 2013 09: 27
    -5
    In the absence of guns, oil disappears, but on the whole they are not very cool fighters, it was still clear in WWII.
    1. 31231
      31231 4 December 2013 10: 33
      +7
      The composition of the Panfilov division at the beginning of November 1941, look.
      1. Humpty
        Humpty 4 December 2013 12: 38
        -5
        Quote: 31231
        The composition of the Panfilov division at the beginning of November 1941, look.


        The Panfilov division almost entirely consisted of Russians and Ukrainians, who had never separated themselves from the Russians in Semirechye, but were still Tatars.
        1. Zymran
          Zymran 4 December 2013 14: 20
          12
          The Panfilov division almost entirely consisted of Russians and Ukrainians, who had never separated themselves from the Russians in Semirechye, but were still Tatars.


          Yeah of course. We are watching the Soviet textbook "History of the Kazakh SSR" Alma-Ata 1959
          from. 468 and read:

          "The composition of the division was multinational: Russians, Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Kyrgyz and representatives of other nationalities. A brief combat description compiled by the division headquarters read:
          "The recruitment took place mainly among [b] Kazakhs and Kyrgyz / b]. Russians accounted for 20-25 percent of the total number of personnel. By social status: workers - 27 percent, collective farmers - 58 percent, office workers - 14 percent, others -1 percent".
          1. Humpty
            Humpty 4 December 2013 17: 56
            -3
            The truth is sometimes varnished.
          2. Airman
            Airman 4 December 2013 20: 37
            +1
            Quote: Zymran
            The Panfilov division almost entirely consisted of Russians and Ukrainians, who had never separated themselves from the Russians in Semirechye, but were still Tatars.


            Yeah of course. We are watching the Soviet textbook "History of the Kazakh SSR" Alma-Ata 1959
            from. 468 and read:

            "The composition of the division was multinational: Russians, Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Kyrgyz and representatives of other nationalities. A brief combat description compiled by the division headquarters read:
            "The recruitment took place mainly among [b] Kazakhs and Kyrgyz / b]. Russians accounted for 20-25 percent of the total number of personnel. By social status: workers - 27 percent, collective farmers - 58 percent, office workers - 14 percent, others -1 percent".

            This is the publication of Kazakhstan in 1959, after the death of Stalin. And you make a request to Podolsk about the name of the Panfilov division, and you will understand that you are wrong. In official statements and reports there is no figure of 20-25%, but there is a figure of 25,7% for example. Ukrainians were not considered Russian. Tatars and Cossacks, too. So familiarize yourself with the lists by name.
            1. Zymran
              Zymran 4 December 2013 21: 14
              +5
              I think you can give a link to the published response to the request?

              I can add that in December 1941, replenishment of 1700 personnel from the 100-th Kazakh Rifle Brigade was sent to the Panfilov Division. And in April next year, another replenishment of 594 people.

              The national composition of the brigade at the time of formation was as follows: Kazakhs - 86%; Russian - 11%; Ukrainians, Belarusians and other nationalities - 3%.

              So Panfilov’s division was replenished with Kazakh soldiers.
            2. Ustas77
              Ustas77 4 December 2013 21: 48
              0
              Ukrainians are not Russians.
        2. Kasym
          Kasym 4 December 2013 18: 43
          +6
          Humpty, I don't think I should tell you that the Germans called her "black" for the number of Asian people in this division. I did not expect this from you. hi
          1. Humpty
            Humpty 4 December 2013 19: 10
            -1
            Kasym, I’m not trying to belittle someone’s merits. Moreover, don’t divide the bones of the dead. More than 95 thousand of all nationalities have not returned home from Kyrgyzstan from the front. Some of them served in the Panfilov division. It was mainly based on the residents of Alma-Ata, the villages nearby, Frunze and Tokmak.
    2. bairat
      bairat 4 December 2013 12: 25
      14
      We are all made from one test, the coolness of a warrior is determined not by the place of residence but by motivation. Illiterate Uzbek / Tajik peasants did not understand why they should go to war, avoided conscription, those called up were often engaged in self-mutilation. The same people in the ranks of the Afghan partisans proved themselves to be worthy opponents.
    3. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 4 December 2013 14: 46
      12
      Quote: tilovaykrisa
      In the absence of guns, oil disappears, but on the whole they are not very cool fighters, it was still clear in WWII.
      .
      After the war, Bauyrzhan Momyshuly graduated with honors from the military academy of the General Staff of the USSR, and he was left to teach there. At the graduation meeting, one of the generals asked the head of the academy Marshal Zakharov: “Why did the soldiers from the Central Asian republics, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan at the front not show courage, heroism and were afraid of Russian frost?” “There have been no wars in these parts for almost three hundred years. They have no military experience, fighting skills. In addition, people born in hot places, of course, can not stand the Russian frost "- answered the marshal. And then Colonel Momyshuly stood up. “The one who asked is a scoundrel and the one who answered is also a scoundrel!” He said loudly and distinctly.

      Later, Bauke admitted, he worried about his harshness, but it was too late to correct something. A report was sent to the Minister of Defense, containing a demand to appeal the colonel “for publicly insulting the military leaders and to judge”. “Explain your actions, Comrade Colonel,” the minister raised a heavy look at me, “B. Momyshuly recalled standing on the ministerial carpet. “I had nothing to lose, the court threatened, and I bluntly said: “Comrade Marshal, I have offended two generals, and they are whole nations. It’s up to you to decide who should be punished, and I’m ready for anyone. ” The minister was silent for a long time, then, with a sigh, he said: "Do not do this anymore, Comrade Colonel."
      Quote: Humpty
      The Panfilov division almost entirely consisted of Russians and Ukrainians, who had never separated themselves from the Russians in Semirechye, but were still Tatars.
      Uh-huh. laughing Baurzhan is such a simple Russian name))), and Momysh-uly is a common Ukrainian surname ...?! fellow
    4. Guun
      Guun 4 December 2013 18: 41
      +6
      Quote: tilovaykrisa
      but in general, they are not very cool warriors, it was still clear in WWII.

      Are you talking about whom? The Kazakhs fought their entire history, one Jungar war is worth what - the 100-year-old Anglo-French war is a kindergarten if you compare. Dzungaria was exterminated, and there were less than a million Kazakhs and the threat of an invasion of the Chinese expeditionary force, which, according to some reports, totaled 300 thousand. bayonets walked through the jungars worse than the plague, not sparing even infants - the nation disappeared. Kazakhs voluntarily joined Russia because they were on the verge of extermination.
  3. Same lech
    Same lech 4 December 2013 09: 40
    +3
    In the absence of guns, the oil disappears,

    It is true, but at the same time, one can lose one’s country in contemporary history as well.
  4. Nomad
    Nomad 4 December 2013 09: 44
    13
    Quote: tilovaykrisa
    In the absence of guns, oil disappears, but on the whole they are not very cool fighters, it was still clear in WWII.

    Plusanul by mistake, instead of minusanut. Comrade, you first read about the participation of Kazakhs in the Second World War, and then make such statements. In general, I am surprised at the way some people make confident statements about what they have no idea.
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 4 December 2013 10: 35
      +5
      I read MOMYSH-ULA Volokolamsk highway is an excellent book (and my favorite) and the author himself is worthy of respect and honor.

      But in the modern world, everything has changed - the interests of different states can change with a change of leadership and KAZAKHSTAN is no exception.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 4 December 2013 22: 36
        +2
        Quote: The same Lech
        I read MOMYSH-ULA Volokolamsk highway is an excellent book (and my favorite) and the author himself is worthy of respect and honor.

        Ha! Until the mid-60s, Volokolamskoe Shosse was issued together with a diploma to every graduate of the officer school. Of course translated into Hebrew. wink
    2. 31231
      31231 4 December 2013 10: 38
      +9
      Totally agree with you. If I lived and worked with the Kazakhs for a year, then I will not water them with negative qualities. We in Russia have slightly similar peoples (Buryats, Kalmyks) and it’s stupid to chat that they’re cowardly. The rear rat had to serve as a rookie in the company drilled and chatted less.
      1. tilovaykrisa
        tilovaykrisa 4 December 2013 13: 17
        +1
        Where is something about the Kazakhs and the Buryats written in the article? If you want to assure me that the Kyrgyz and Tajiks are new Rambo then do not waste your energy.
    3. ed65b
      ed65b 4 December 2013 11: 29
      +7
      Nomad, read carefully. About Kazakhstan and the words in the article are not present and nobody respected does not water and scold you. Kazakhstan is our strategic ally in the most problematic part of Asia, and if you give anyone 1.5 billion dollars worth of weapons, it’s better for me to Kazakhstan. hi
      1. tilovaykrisa
        tilovaykrisa 4 December 2013 13: 16
        -2
        Without reading the article, they immediately look at kamenty, as a result of such a reaction.
  5. Gennady1973
    Gennady1973 4 December 2013 10: 04
    +4
    "" There is a problem, it must be solved. The first step was taken about a year ago, when Moscow informed Bishkek and Dushanbe about the possibility of allocating $ XNUMX billion for military spending. Free of charge. The proposed amount is fourteen times higher than the military budgets of the two republics combined. " This is their problem! And with this money you first need to re-equip yourself! And then you can give your brothers-in-arms something that has been removed from service.
  6. buzer
    buzer 4 December 2013 10: 27
    14
    and brothers in arms are given weapons and equipment from reserve warehouses. And it makes no sense to give a new technique! Against our own "internal enemies" and foreign (hypothetically, Afghans, because against the Chinese only nuclear weapons are effective), the weapons of the Soviet period are enough for the eyes !!! And stop rolling the barrel against the Kazakhs !!! Better read "Volokolamskoe shosse" by Alexander Bek !!! My grandfather did not die in April 1945 near Berlin so that every chauvinist scum would write about which nation is more militant ...
    1. Andrey KZ
      Andrey KZ 4 December 2013 16: 19
      15
      Quote: buzer
      My grandfather did not die in April 1945 of the year near Berlin, so that any chauvinistic scum of filth here would write about which nation was more militant ...
      + Recently Nazarbayev, speaking in front of "Bolashak" people, said that humiliating another nation, you cannot raise your own. You cannot say better.
  7. Airman
    Airman 4 December 2013 10: 28
    0
    When feeding someone else’s army, one must never forget the proverb: no matter how you feed the wolf, he looks into the forest.
  8. cdrt
    cdrt 4 December 2013 10: 34
    +1
    Well, why be surprised?
    I would like to have a traditional empire (with military control over the entire territory) - you have to pay for it.
    It's not for nothing that the Imperial Britons switched from direct control to trade and economic (with one-time military interventions) - it’s cheaper (you pump out what you need, having enough control ONLY over the right territories for this)
  9. reality
    reality 4 December 2013 10: 39
    +1
    Nomad, if this is complete nonsense, why are you reacting? Yes, and the article is about Tajiks and Kyrgyz, have you ever read?
  10. ed65b
    ed65b 4 December 2013 11: 03
    +6
    I am afraid that in the future the above-mentioned republics will constantly act as petitioners, constantly appealing to Russia once again to provide. add, give, and everything as for the first time for free. Local kings get used to freebies instantly. and they will beat out preferences by blackmail. Maybe it is necessary not to grow the army of obscure Asian kings, but to increase our own forces in the region and precisely to modernize them?
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 4 December 2013 18: 31
      14
      Good evening, Edward! I would like to clarify a bit. We have repeatedly helped the Kyrgyz armament. For example, during the Botken events. All Russian aid, at least a lot, is weapons from warehouses, usually old. Nothing new, from the factories, they will not receive. It’s better to give them away than it will rust in our warehouses. There even T-55 will go. Enough against the borada for the eyes. So you don’t really have to worry. It is better to arm them against voraciousness than to get in on them later. They will not see live money.
      Now, with regard to Tajiks and Kyrgyz. From history. Tajiks (immigrants from Iran - Persia) were able to survive and defend their territory surrounded by Turkic peoples, especially nomadic pastoralists. Say that they are not warriors, sorry the tongue will not turn. Kyrgyz people are nomadic herders who, by definition, are excellent hunters. Both of them fought well in Afghanistan. In the same Muslim special forces battalion.
      I liked the comment. ANDREW KZ. +. I also saw the speech of NAS. That's who does not get tired of promoting international ideas to the people. "Friendship of peoples and internal stability is the guarantee of the prosperity of Kazakhstan and its people." hi
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. Gorinich
    Gorinich 4 December 2013 11: 23
    0
    There really is a problem, and it must be solved in accordance with the plan for developing relations with Central Asia. But Rossi hasn’t seen such a plan yet ... Momentary impulses will not give a result.
  13. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 4 December 2013 11: 26
    +1
    The article is correct. Necessary. It remains to look at the implementation of the plan.
    I would like to know in more detail what political conditions the Russian side has agreed on the provision of such defense assistance. Because the concept of gratuitous aid is more likely correlated with the economy. Yes, and a mechanism for monitoring the expenditure of the funds provided must be present, so that it does not work out as it was before ...
  14. Turkestan
    Turkestan 4 December 2013 11: 50
    +7
    Until recently, the CIS military strategists said that we did not need large military formations, there would be no major wars. It is enough to have small, well-trained mobile units to deal with sabotage groups and terrorists. In accordance with this, combat training in the CIS Armies was and is being conducted.

    AND SUDDENLY.

    Events in North Africa and Syria have turned this whole doctrine. Syrian cadre troops numbering about 200000 thousand, having military training and equipment, have been fighting the Syrian opposition for the second year, which was able to form combat units in the CAC in a short time, about 100000 people and about the same number of Olkado militants having combat experience. And notice for SHORT TIME.
    Now imagine if this force falls on the southern outskirts of the CIS! NOT ONE ARMY OF THE CENTRAL ASIAN REGION will not be able to withstand these militants, including military units of the Russian troops, even if they will conduct joint military operations because of their small numbers and large borders with a complex relief of mountainous and desert terrain.
    It is not possible to cover the southern borders alone. In order to accomplish this task, you need the POLITICAL WILL of the interested CIS countries, colossal military and economic RESOURCES.
  15. samoletil18
    samoletil18 4 December 2013 12: 48
    +1
    $ 1,5 billion, in this case, such a convention that simply determines the value of the transferred weapons. The United States has been doing this for many years: disposal, storage, retention of specialists (fees), etc., let them have TAM warehouses with old ammunition explode (it’s not up to them to eliminate the consequences). The political component is understandable. Economically you sharpen the buyer on new samples - junk already gave for nothing. Yes, and trade with everything else is closed to the benefactor. The ability to test their own military doctrines in unstable regions and, if successful, access to all resources. I took $ 1000 to my clinic of old household appliances, and it was gathering dust in the garage, it became easier to park the car.
  16. Humpty
    Humpty 4 December 2013 12: 48
    +4
    The Kyrgyz "army" in 99 could not cope with a gang that crossed the pass from Tajikistan. We agreed with the bandyuk for money and not a little. Since that time, nothing but further degradation has happened.
    There will not be any qualitative increase in combat effectiveness through the supply of weapons in Kyrgyzstan.
    1. samoletil18
      samoletil18 4 December 2013 13: 11
      0
      There will not be any qualitative increase in combat effectiveness through the supply of weapons in Kyrgyzstan.

      There is another side. The military will be trained in Russia. Growing up, developing and influencing local elites will begin in our favor over time. The Americans, the French, the British, the USSR did this in full.
      1. Humpty
        Humpty 4 December 2013 18: 07
        0
        The problem with us is not in outhouses, in the minds. Although in the outhouse too. Most of the population does not know how to use the latrine. From that, and any more or less serious equipment becomes unusable very quickly. Who will repair it?
        In China, for example, the law of dialectics - the transition of quantity into quality with reservations works. On Wednesday. For some reason there is no Asia.
        1. albai
          albai 4 December 2013 19: 28
          +7
          Mr. Humpty! You probably served your entire short adult, conscious life in the Kyrgyz Army?
          The Kyrgyz "army" in 99 could not cope with a gang that crossed the pass from Tajikistan. We agreed with the bandyuk for money and not a little. Since that time, nothing but further degradation has happened.
          And do you know the army thoroughly from the inside? What so categorically affirm its degradation. But nevertheless, just as bought scribblers and all kinds of amateurs are not ruining it, the army, although with dilapidated equipment and weapons, a lack of fuel and lubricants and in the old prison, is serving and conducting exercises, although not as large-scale as in Russia, and if the need arises they will stand up death in the mountains. And the bandits didn’t cross from Tajikistan, but from Afghanistan, who were pretty trained and went through many fights there. The leader, Juma Namangoni, a former SA paratrooper, was killed. And naturally, our fighters who were not shot at first gave slack. And you are wrong that you could not cope, the whole gang was mowed and scattered, by the way, by the very same fighters. The rest, after a week and a half, was finished off in the mountains of Chatkal. Well, you respected Humpty Dumpty, you should have known about this from at least the press! It is not good to blame it on children who serve not for fear, but for conscience, in all garrisons, in the mountains and valleys of the republic. And you probably got tired sitting on the couch while drinking coffee, pounding on the clave? Can you run through the mountains?
          1. poquello
            poquello 4 December 2013 23: 56
            +1
            Quote: albai
            ... our fighters first gave slack. And you are wrong that you could not cope, the whole gang was mowed and scattered, by the way, by the very same fighters. The rest, after a week and a half, was finished off in the mountains of Chatkal. Well, you respected Humpty Dumpty, you should have known about this at least from the press! ...

            From the press, it’s just about the slack and I remember that not only one of me probably has this story without an ending. Thanks a lot.
          2. Humpty
            Humpty 5 December 2013 06: 42
            0
            [quote = albai] Mr. Humpty! You probably served your entire short adult, conscious life in the Kyrgyz Army? [Quote]

            Not from the press. We have good soldiers and as long as there are such officers as Ilkhom and "Shaitan". All is NOT lost. Yours faithfully !
  17. tilovaykrisa
    tilovaykrisa 4 December 2013 13: 13
    -2
    Quote: 31231
    The composition of the Panfilov division at the beginning of November 1941, look.


    On "I remember", go and read what veterans write about the nationalities during the Second World War, I somehow trust them more.
    1. Jet
      Jet 4 December 2013 17: 29
      +3
      Enough here to purposefully add oil to the fire, and provoke people. I hope the moderator will follow this.
    2. T80UM1
      T80UM1 5 December 2013 07: 14
      +3
      your nickname matches your content
  18. avt
    avt 4 December 2013 13: 42
    0
    Quote: Nomad
    Plusanul by mistake, instead of minusanut. Comrade, you first read about the participation of Kazakhs in the Second World War, and then make such statements.

    Yeah, plus, but then I remembered that Kazakhstan was mentioned and the brain began to boil!? There, in general, in the article Kazakhstan was mentioned in connection with the Hollywood film in a derogatory sense for amers. But in general, it was written about Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. I didn’t put anything, the article is generally about the world and nothing concrete.
  19. Turkestan
    Turkestan 4 December 2013 14: 52
    -1
    Quote: samoletil18
    There will not be any qualitative increase in combat effectiveness through the supply of weapons in Kyrgyzstan.

    There is another side. The military will be trained in Russia. Growing up, developing and influencing local elites will begin in our favor over time. The Americans, the French, the British, the USSR did this in full.


    There is no time left for this. Withdrawal of NATO forces 2014. year of Afghanistan
    1. samoletil18
      samoletil18 4 December 2013 19: 08
      0
      Well, about the withdrawal of Nato from Afghanistan in 2014, it became known before the decision on gratuitous military assistance was made. And I'm on [quote = Turkestan] [quote = samoletil18] [quote] There will not be any qualitative increase in combat effectiveness through the supply of weapons to Kyrgyzstan. [/ Quote]
      There is another side to this. The military will be trained in Russia. Over time, they will begin to grow up, develop and influence the local elites in our favor. The Americans, the French, the British, the USSR were doing this in full. [/ Quote] answered so implying that such a decision was made taking into account NATO realities. Possibly Roosevelt's garden hose.
  20. marshes
    marshes 4 December 2013 16: 20
    +7
    I ran a cursory glance.
    At the expense of the Panfilov Division, the manning was mixed. But we must not forget about Rzhev, where the 100th and 101st national rifle brigades participated in Operation Mars. And thanks to them, Operation Uranus was successful.
    On the account of military cooperation in the framework of the CSTO, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan also received military material assistance from Kazakhstan, in the form of equipment, ammunition, equipment. And I will not forget 90 where in Tajikistan peacekeeping units from Kazakhstan, air force and air defense participated. on the Panj.
    1. marshes
      marshes 4 December 2013 19: 06
      +8
      And here are our countrymen.
      My grandfather would have been alive. He himself was in 1908, he died in 1982 in November.
  21. FormerMariman
    FormerMariman 4 December 2013 18: 27
    +3
    Comrade "ed65b /" is right about KZ, nothing is said, at least for which it would be a shame! Giving money to Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan for armament is a big question! And what about training is reasonable, earlier in the USSR, Syrians, Libyans, etc. were trained in my LVVMIU. There will be a need to train representatives of the CSTO in authoritative military universities of Russia!
    1. Humpty
      Humpty 4 December 2013 19: 39
      -1
      One of the notorious Kyrgyz Russophobes, a former presidential candidate, Major General K. Tashiev, was trained in Tomsk. How he graduated from a university there is not entirely clear to me.
      He returned, completely run wild poor fellow. By the way, his student son was caught red-handed the other day when he and his friends tried to steal wheels from a parked car.
      Two boots from the apple tree do not fall far.
      A more responsible approach should be taken to the question of whom to teach.
  22. Sergey Sitnikov
    Sergey Sitnikov 4 December 2013 20: 22
    +4
    hundreds and thousands of examples of the true heroism of representatives of ALL nationalities of the USSR during the Second World War, as I think, in the first three months ALL were present among the captured Red Army soldiers, and not only Kazakhs or Kyrgyz fled in the drama march - it’s ridiculous and stupid to think so .. ...
    I am sure only all together we were able to break the Wehrmacht ...
    Russophobia is the stupidity and suggestibility of some and the direct goal of others, who would never become an elite of a state scale (the ruling elite) in a common country, would never be able to rule in certain branches of power, i.e. it is the planting of Russophobia that cements the "thrones" !!!!!!!
    1. Ustas77
      Ustas77 4 December 2013 21: 52
      +1
      I agree for 1000%
  23. marshes
    marshes 4 December 2013 20: 31
    +6
    I hope in Russia they will remember Kasym Kaysenov.
    1. Airman
      Airman 4 December 2013 20: 54
      -4
      Quote: marshes
      I hope in Russia they will remember Kasym Kaysenov.

      Do Kazakhs remember tens of millions of dead Russians?
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 5 December 2013 07: 18
        0
        of which 10% were Vlasovites? Yes, we remember RONA, all sorts of Don and Kuban volunteers in the service of the Wehrmacht, about 0.5 million heavis, and even another 0.5 million who voluntarily fled to the West ... Will we all be equal? The dead are not only those who fought for their homeland ... These and those who fought against ...
    2. Ustas77
      Ustas77 4 December 2013 21: 52
      +1
      they have other heroes now ...
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 5 December 2013 07: 19
        +1
        like you, bandera for example, or shukhevych ...
  24. marshes
    marshes 4 December 2013 21: 07
    +3
    Quote: Povshnik
    Quote: marshes
    I hope in Russia they will remember Kasym Kaysenov.

    Do Kazakhs remember tens of millions of dead Russians?

    They remember and still remember those who died from hunger and who were lucky to immigrate.
    42% of the percent died, although if you take the European "measure" you can talk about genocide, over 25%. In relation to the number of people, we are not Ukrainians. We get "terpily".
    1. Ustas77
      Ustas77 4 December 2013 21: 57
      +6
      Ukrainians and Belarusians, who do not remember, were generally under occupation during the Great Patriotic War. All the people. Little kids and weak old people. All industrial production was evacuated (and it was right) to the Urals - by the way, which is why there is now such a possible industry.
      And now the small goblins are arguing that Russia without problems (after all, it is a victorious country) won that war itself, without the other peoples of the USSR. Our veterans, long of them, are shocked about those words, that great-power nonsense and mania of flaccidity ...
  25. Concept1
    Concept1 4 December 2013 21: 46
    0
    Heroes of the Soviet Union by nationality during the years of World War II.

    From this information it is clear that the most desperate wars are Ossetians 10752 people per 1 Hero of the USSR. In second place are Russians 12452 people per 1 Hero of the USSR.

    This also shows that in Russian 7998, BeloRusov 299 and MaloRossov- (Ukrainians) 2021, 10318 people were heroes of the Soviet Union during the Second World War, i.e. 91% of all the peoples inhabiting the USSR heroes in the Great Patriotic War were three fraternal peoples, but in fact united Russian people.
    In this list of World War II heroes there are 11342 people, which is close to the truth since there were still classified heroes. In various sources, the figure is up to 11600 people.
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. chenia
    chenia 4 December 2013 22: 34
    +6
    Quote: tilovaykrisa
    In the absence of guns, oil disappears, but on the whole they are not very cool fighters, it was still clear in WWII.


    Kazakhs and Kyrgyz have always been excellent warriors. The psychology of the herder and hunter is closer to the military profession.

    And the steppes bring up incredible qualities of survival, endurance and the ability to adapt to any conditions.

    Momysh-uly is a characteristic representative of the Kazakh people - strong-willed, courageous, stubborn, arrogant, not sparing either himself or his subordinates, but even more so than enemies. And at the same time, he valued soldiers' lives and fought while thinking, rather than stupidly performing.

    In fact, 316 s.d. thanks to him, the Germans renamed it a “wild division — fighting against the rules”.

    And he, with his reinforced battalion (reserve division), forced him to change the direction of the main strike of the November offensive in the north (transferred to Solnechnogorsk).

    Naturally, other units and divisions of the division, as well as reinforcements, also fought heroically.
    But his arrogant return (shuttle) strikes (the German battalion was knocked out by the forces of the company — and not fucking relaxing) led the Germans into prostration.
  28. Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 5 December 2013 00: 28
    +4
    A friend read German recollections of the Eastern Front into World War II.
    Whoever needs it, I will find and send a link: During the battle, the Germans captured several Kazakh prisoners and burned them at the stake in public on their territory. The Germans were not lucky, as they were opposed by the "black" Kazakh part. Our people, having learned about this, at night in the morning cut out the entire German unit, and acted only with knives, cutting off the heads of the Germans. The German, whose memoirs were published, was the only one of the part who survived thanks to a miracle. The Kazakh dragged him into the yard from the house by the collar. At the moment when he cut another fleeing German, this German broke free and rolled into the ravine. Then, apparently, he gave a drain, in horror leaving the feces anywhere. Beasts, but our beasts. drinks
  29. Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 5 December 2013 00: 31
    +6
    And yet, I just read: In November 1942, during the Battle of Stalingrad, there was one of the last cases of combat use of cavalry in an equestrian system. A participant in this event was the 4th Cavalry Corps of the Red Army, formed in Central Asia and until September 1942, carrying out occupation service in Iran. The 4th Cavalry Corps was to participate in breaking through the Romanian defense south of Stalingrad.
    Initially it was assumed that horse breeders, as usual, would take horses to shelter, and cavalry on foot would attack the Romanian trenches. However, the artillery preparation had such an effect on the Romanians that immediately after it ended, the Romanians got out of the dugouts and ran in the panic to the rear.
    It was then that it was decided to pursue the running Romanians in horse riding.
    The Romanians managed not only to catch up, but also to overtake. Two corps divisions - 81st and 61st - covered them on the right and on the left, and a real meat grinder began - three Romanian regiments were chopped up in full force. The losses of the corps were compared with the scanty results achieved: the 81st division lost 10 people killed and 13 wounded, 61st - 17 people killed and 21 wounded.
    Without encountering resistance, the cavalrymen took the Abganerovo station, where large trophies were captured: more than 100 guns, warehouses with food, fuel and ammunition.
    After the liberation of the Abganerovo station, the advanced units of the 4th cavalry corps of Shapkin rapidly developed an attack on the large settlement of Kotelnikovo and the station of the same name. When half of Kotelnikovo was already occupied by cavalry, Field Marshal Manstein, fearing the loss of this important point, found additional forces and threw them into a counterattack. Under the onslaught of superior motorized forces of the enemy and without the support of other units, Shapkin's cavalrymen were forced to retreat. And the 81st division, which was at the forefront, was surrounded. In this difficult situation, Commander Shapkin independently takes a risky and responsible decision: by the forces of the corps to free his encircled division and save people. And he succeeded. With nightfall, the earth buzzed beneath thousands of hooves. The Germans did not expect such a swift, powerful attack. They did not even have time to come to their senses, as their ring of encirclement was crumpled and torn and the division, which they were going to destroy or capture, was withdrawn from the encirclement.
    While on the Stalingrad Front, in November 1942, the corps included the 61st and 81st cavalry divisions. The personnel of which for 60% consisted of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Turkmen. drinks
  30. FormerMariman
    FormerMariman 5 December 2013 01: 27
    +2
    Quote: Ustas77
    they have other heroes now ...

    And here are probably your "heroes": http://ru.tsn.ua/ukrayina/vo-lvove-proshel-marsh-pamyati-divizii-ss-galichina.ht
    ml! What has become dumb? Then do not share the GREAT VICTORY and do not stoop to such disputes, YOU are proud of your grandfathers as WE are! Good luck Andrey!
  31. chenia
    chenia 5 December 2013 01: 27
    +4
    Speaking of Tajiks. In 78, my calculation (I’ve only been a couple of months as a battery commander, which means as SOB, I prepared them) took 1st place in the okrug (KSAVO). KO and gunner were Tajiks. Well?

    Yes, there was a calculation of the main one (3 guns), where the KO and the gunner were Russian, and did not enter the competition, since they both were demobilized (and by the terms of the contest only one demobilization was allowed).

    But the Tajik battery calculation was second.
    I was still showing off - "they say in your district this is the first calculation, but I have only the second in my batteries."
  32. Nomad
    Nomad 5 December 2013 08: 37
    +2
    Quote: Guun
    Kazakhs voluntarily joined Russia because they were on the verge of extermination.

    I do not agree here. The Chinese had enough strength for the Dzungars, but no longer for the Kazakhs. For another 100 years Kazakhs went on raids on the Chinese border. All that the Chinese responded to was writing complaints to the Russian administration. And then the "century of humiliation" began for China, and everyone, and all the great powers, including Russia, were stamping their feet there. So the rumors about the threat of the extermination of Kazakhs by the Chinese in the 18-19 centuries. "somewhat exaggerated".
  33. Nomad
    Nomad 5 December 2013 08: 39
    +2
    Quote: ed65b
    Nomad, read carefully. About Kazakhstan and the words in the article are not present and nobody respected does not water and scold you

    How not about Kazakhstan, when is it? And about watering or scolding, I just did not say anything.
  34. Nomad
    Nomad 5 December 2013 08: 41
    +4
    Quote: The same LYOKHA
    I read MOMYSH-ULA Volokolamsk highway is an excellent book (and my favorite) and the author himself is worthy of respect and honor.

    Moreover, Momysh-ula is one of the most famous, but far from the only hero of the Second World War in Kazakhstan. However, it is impossible to divide the soldiers of that war into heroes and non-heroes, they are all heroes!
  35. Nomad
    Nomad 5 December 2013 08: 47
    +2
    Quote: Asan Ata
    While on the Stalingrad Front, in November 1942, the corps included the 61st and 81st cavalry divisions. The personnel of which for 60% consisted of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Turkmen.

    Thanks for the info, didn't know! For some reason, I recall an episode from "The Lord of the Rings", where the riders of Rohan (horse breeders, by the way) chopped the orcs at night. laughing
  36. Nomad
    Nomad 5 December 2013 08: 53
    +1
    Quote: Asan Ata
    During the battle, the Germans captured several Kazakh prisoners and, in public, burned them at the stake on their territory. The Germans were not lucky, as they were opposed by the "black" Kazakh part. Ours, having learned about this, at night in the morning cut out the entire German part, and acted only with knives, cutting off the heads of the Germans

    Still, it is surprising that in 1945 ours didn’t do this with all the Germans. Given what they did in the territory of the USSR.
  37. The comment was deleted.