Military Review

Nuclear submarines Severodvinsk recognized as too expensive

193
Nuclear submarines Severodvinsk recognized as too expensive

Creating a large series of "Yasenei" is very difficult from an economic and engineering point of view and hardly necessary from a military point of view - categorical and, frankly, a little pleasant conclusion for creators of such submarines is contained in a report prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission and distributed at the All-Russian Forum "Shipbuilding and Shipping of Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency."


The forum is taking place in Moscow, and the head submarine Severodvinsk, mentioned in the Yasen report, completed a complex test program (spent more than 220 days at sea - these are full-fledged 3-4 combat services), is now presented to the state commission and is awaiting the decision of its fate. The previously named deadlines for the transfer of the ship to the Navy have passed, yet another - the end of this year.

Yes, the 855 "Ash" head submarine, which was created by the St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau Malachite and was laid down at Sevmash in 1993, is an unprecedentedly long история childbirth. And with the "Bulava", we note, it is in no way connected - there is a completely different weaponry. This submarine cruiser belongs to the new, fourth generation multi-purpose submarines. According to the stated capabilities and combat equipment, they are designed to replace with themselves two classes of existing submarines at once - underwater hunters (like "Cheetah") and submarine cruisers with cruise missiles (these included the dead "Kursk").

The complex architecture of this ship, given by the designer, was superimposed on the 90's timelessness and turned out to be incredibly difficult to implement when the financing of the military-industrial complex almost ceased and production cooperation disintegrated. Reprocessing work on this order became more active only at the beginning of a new century, and in June 2010 of the "Ash" was delayed after all. The year before, on the eve of the next day of the Navy, a second corps was laid on the stocks of the Sevmash. And they immediately gave their own name to the future ship, Kazan. At the same time, plans to build a large series of submarines of this type — ten or more — were officially announced.

However, on the eve of laying the second "Ash", and after voices were heard that the ships of this series are not only very difficult to build, but also excessively expensive. The exact cost of the officials from the USC and the Ministry of Defense did not disclose, but made it clear that the sum of the cost of one multipurpose boat exceeds the cost of creating a strategic missile carrier.

Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency. ”It coincided that the night before, Russian President Vladimir Putin held a special meeting in Sochi on the development of nuclear submarine forces. From there, the details are minimal. But from the report prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation and was distributed at the forum in Moscow, it follows that in the next decade and a half the Russian Navy should receive at least 16-18 multi-purpose nuclear submarines.

But! “It is hardly advisable to realize this goal at the expense of the 885“ Ash ”nuclear submarine, the authors of the report say, and suggest that the construction of such ships be limited to four, maximum to six hulls. And from the turn of the 2015-2016 years, in their opinion, it is necessary to build multi-purpose submarines under a new project - unified with the "Yasen" on the main systems, but with a simplified composition of weapons.

"The construction of a large series of Yaseni in the coming decades is very heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and hardly necessary from a military one," the report says. Experts substantiated their position by the fact that the Russian Navy now has 27 multi-purpose submarines of 949, 971, 945, 672 RTM projects, and during the 10-12 years most of these ships will go out of service due to the deterioration of the main systems.

In order to prevent a sharp reduction in the number of combat-ready nuclear submarines (and they are already not enough to solve urgent tasks in the North Atlantic and Pacific theaters of war removed from each other, experts say), the fleet should receive at least 16-18 multi-purpose over the next fifteen years submarines.

4,5 trillion rubles - this amount is planned to be spent on the Navy under the current State Armaments Program (GVV-2020)

Five or six missing units can be replenished by repairing, upgrading and, accordingly, extending the service life of the existing submarines, which retained their resource potential. At the Severodvinsk ship repair shipyard "Zvezdochka" the experience of such works is great, and they will certainly cope with the task set there.

But the construction of new ships in any case must be intensified. And - to optimize from the economic and military-strategic points of view. In the United States, something similar has already been done, replacing the expensive Sivulf submarine project with the Virginia project, the authors of the expert report say.

Dossier "RG"

Multipurpose "Ash": two in one

Submarine "Severodvinsk" carries a powerful set of weapons, including anti-ship operational-tactical complex P-800 "Onyx" with a rocket 3M-55 development Reutov NPO "Engineering" cruise missiles to destroy ground targets, anti-X-35 cruise missiles and strategic cruise missiles X-101. Thus, it combines the qualities of a high-speed and low-noise torpedo submarine (such as the "Cheetah") with the capabilities of a missile cruiser, such as, for example, the dead "Kursk". According to Western and Russian experts, the level of Severodvinsk hydroacoustic visibility is commensurate with the level of the American SeeWolf submarine. At the same time, the 885 project has a higher level of versatility than the American counterpart.

Another distinctive feature of the Yasen submarines is that the torpedo tubes are not located in the bow of the ship, but behind the central post compartment. This allowed to place in the bow of the antenna of the new hydroacoustic complex. In addition, the ship received the latest communications and navigation systems, equipped with an advanced nuclear power plant.

The displacement of the submarine - 9,5 thousand tons, length - 120, maximum depth of immersion - 600 meters. The total submerged speed is 31 knot / about 57 km / h /, the crew is 85 people.
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193 comments
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  1. Volodya Sibiryak
    Volodya Sibiryak 29 November 2013 11: 23
    136
    It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.
    1. Arberes
      Arberes 29 November 2013 11: 31
      104
      No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What kind of disgust in the end then !!!
      Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper! Boats are an effective, asymmetric weapon and we need them first of all!
      1. Stiletto
        Stiletto 29 November 2013 11: 36
        114
        Quote: Arberes
        Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper!


        It’s just that normal countries don’t need to spend so much on feeding Serdyukov with women.
        1. AVV
          AVV 29 November 2013 12: 41
          27
          The damage brought by these figures of Russia and Moscow Region cannot be counted, Kolyma cries for them, but can’t wait !!!
          1. bif
            bif 29 November 2013 22: 14
            +5
            Quote: AVV
            Kolyma cries for them

            As well as the confiscation of all that is valuable, including the lonely organs ... you look at Ash exactly gather.
          2. aleks2102
            aleks2102 30 November 2013 05: 45
            +8
            not Kolyma, but shooting ...
            1. Andrey Yuryevich
              Andrey Yuryevich 1 December 2013 05: 18
              +3
              execution is too easy! chop hands in Red Square in public, and let them live near the church fence ... this is it!
        2. karal
          karal 29 November 2013 13: 11
          22
          The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???
          1. Russ69
            Russ69 29 November 2013 13: 23
            12
            Quote: karal
            One of the richest countries, but no money ???

            No matter how many, this does not mean that they should not be counted.
            And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost. Quite a working moment ...
            1. karal
              karal 29 November 2013 15: 32
              10
              No matter how many, this does not mean that you do not need to count them

              They steal so much money that they don’t have time to count! am
            2. ramzes1776
              ramzes1776 29 November 2013 17: 50
              +5
              Quote: Russ69
              And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost.

              I do not believe that it will be more expensive than the American SeeWolf submarine at a price.
              1. Russ69
                Russ69 1 December 2013 02: 12
                +1
                Quote: ramzes1776
                I do not believe that it will be more expensive than the American SeeWolf submarine at a price.

                Amers, as a rule, are always more expensive. There the appetites of the military-industrial complex are worse than ours. But they have more money ...
            3. lelikas
              lelikas 30 November 2013 00: 10
              +9
              Quote: Russ69
              No matter how many, this does not mean that they should not be counted.
              And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost. Quite a working moment ...

              With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
              And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.
              1. lucidlook
                lucidlook 30 November 2013 15: 35
                +3
                Quote: lelikas
                With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
                And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.

                Apparently, our leaders very literally understand the slogan "Oh, sport! You are the world!" ... too literally ... to the point of perverting the essence. There will be no sport where there is no peace (see Afghanistan). And the world has always been behind strong walls and reliable borders (see USSR).
              2. Russ69
                Russ69 1 December 2013 02: 14
                0
                Quote: lelikas
                With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
                And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.

                To finance the army, this is the right thing. But do not forget about the rest ...
                1. lelikas
                  lelikas 2 December 2013 00: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Russ69
                  To finance the army, this is the right thing. But do not forget about the rest ...

                  With a budget of 13 trillion rubles, 2 trillion for the army, the rest is not so little.
                  1. clidon
                    clidon 2 December 2013 05: 59
                    0
                    In 2013, the government was forced to cut spending on education, utilities, culture, and sports. Therefore, the security forces, to whom they give more than 4,2 billion are eaten up, along with officials (almost 1 trillion) and servicing debts and other payments (500 billion), half of the expenditure. Pensioners (from which there is no way to go), another 4,1 trillion.
                    Is there much left?
                    Compare - 86 billion rubles are allocated for all the long-suffering housing and communal services (with all the problems).
          2. ramzes1776
            ramzes1776 29 November 2013 17: 48
            +9
            Quote: karal
            The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???

            5 puts a column of sticks in the wheels! Is it time to make a small sweep of such comrades at all levels of power. Let them sit in the kitchen at home and write such reports to themselves !!!
            1. pawel1961
              pawel1961 29 November 2013 23: 42
              +2
              what 5 column we have a generation of traitors in the period of the 90s and 2000s
              1. ramzes1776
                ramzes1776 30 November 2013 00: 52
                +4
                Quote: pawel1961
                what 5 column we have a generation of traitors in the period of the 90s and 2000s

                Just the bulk of this generation wants Russia to be strong. They understand who our main adversary is in this world and they see children in sovereign and strong Russia, unlike the generation of the 60s, former Komsomol workers who were in the 90s ready ass licked amers, almost the country didn’t just ask ... whether !!!
                1. Greenwood
                  Greenwood 1 December 2013 16: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: ramzes1776
                  the bulk of this generation
                  Are you talking about the generation of the 90s and 2000s? Yes, this generation is not interested in anything but money. In between "puff", "fuck" and "play Tanks". To be honest, I myself am from the generation of the 90s. Most of my peer friends know nothing about submarines, bombers, etc. Everyone is concerned about how to make more money, preferably quickly and without much difficulty. Some dream of going abroad, and many of them dream of going to that very main enemy. I will immediately make a reservation that I have a higher education in the field of information technology, respectively, most of my friends and acquaintances are IT people. How much an IT specialist earns in the USA and other developed countries and how much here, I think there is no need to explain. Hence such moods among people. Many people wanted to spit on all kinds of politics, patriotism, etc.
                  All of the above applies only to their own observations. Personally, I consider for myself
                  1. Greenwood
                    Greenwood 1 December 2013 17: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: Greenwood
                    Personally, I consider for myself
                    Damn, did not finish the thought.
                    I personally consider 2 options. Either work here, or go to Japan (I like the culture of this country). The choice has not yet been made, it will depend on how the situation in Russia develops further and how well I patched my Japanese. :)
          3. 31231
            31231 29 November 2013 19: 15
            +4
            Together with the author of the article in Ryge. Journalists like amno every PR. Another expert has been publicized. When did our experts decide what to pay at the state defense order ?! So let’s continue to be clever, as some here on the site.
        3. vvp2412
          vvp2412 29 November 2013 20: 48
          +4
          "NORMAL" Countries feed their "Serdyukovs" with their mistresses!

          I think that Putin has the intelligence to separate the seeds from the chaff. If not for him, there would not have been these boats at all. I think he knows what he is doing!
        4. pawel1961
          pawel1961 29 November 2013 23: 34
          0
          And what are these normal countries?
      2. Very old
        Very old 29 November 2013 11: 44
        42
        I vote for Arberez. Serdyukov (at night they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny) only (attention!) Overlooked, showed negligence, and here the article is different, not providing for punishment. Allotted 56 million. This is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the real losses of the Army and the state. And YOU say: submarines, AUG ... AU, justice
        = Where is the money, Zin? =
        1. Andrey Yuryevich
          Andrey Yuryevich 29 November 2013 12: 07
          12
          your truth Hottabych ... hi
        2. Arberes
          Arberes 29 November 2013 12: 22
          12
          Quote: Very old
          Serdyukov (at last they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny)

          RAPID - say, rhymes have trampled on my crazy head!
          OH DO NOT TEST ME, otherwise I will compose something again? Already sick of this face!
          1. Astral
            Astral 29 November 2013 12: 42
            +5
            pig
        3. Jin
          Jin 29 November 2013 12: 31
          +2
          Quote: Very old
          Charted a total of 56 million
        4. Jin
          Jin 29 November 2013 12: 36
          15
          Quote: Very old
          Charted a total of 56 million


          Hello everyone! Yes colleague "only" 56 lyamas... shit ... well, compared to the size of kickbacks and the extent of theft, really mere pennies ... what can I say. Now he proudly wears his well-deserved Taburetkin-Robe ... would strangle a reptile sad
          1. Russ69
            Russ69 29 November 2013 13: 20
            +1
            Quote: Jin
            Hello! Yes, colleague, "only" 56 lyamas ... oow ... well, compared to the size of kickbacks and the scale of theft,


            According to the official representative of the Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, the charge against the former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov will be announced within ten days, possibly under a more serious article.
            http://www.dni.ru/news/2013/11/29/265014.html
            1. vlrosch
              vlrosch 29 November 2013 16: 46
              +1
              He is not a judge, as connected with Aypad’s relative (cousin S. Medvedeva), and Aypad doesn’t surrender her; she’ll deliver the whole country with cancer, and not surrender it.
          2. alone
            alone 29 November 2013 20: 53
            +3
            Quote: Jin
            Now he proudly wears his well-deserved Taburetkin-Robe ... would strangle a reptile


            Do you want to be deprived of freedom because of Taburetkin? Is he worth it?
        5. lucidlook
          lucidlook 29 November 2013 15: 30
          +8
          Do you think they will condemn him as Khodorkovsky? Oh, something I doubt.

          Quote: Very old
          AU, justice

          "Shout louder, daddy, it's hard to hear." :(
        6. ziqzaq
          ziqzaq 29 November 2013 16: 13
          +4
          Quote: Very old
          I vote for Arberez. Serdyukov (at night they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny) only (attention!) Overlooked, showed negligence, and here the article is different, not punishing

          That’s for sure, it seems Comrade Dzerzhinsky said:
          Each error has a first and last name ......
          1. builder74
            builder74 30 November 2013 04: 49
            +2
            Comrade Kaganovich
      3. rsnv
        rsnv 29 November 2013 13: 33
        18
        Quote: Arberes
        No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What the fuck is in the end then !!!

        There is just enough money, even in abundance. In the Reserve Fund and the National Welfare Fund is 5,6 trillion. rub. (2,8 trillion in each) and mostly withdrawn from the country (invested in US Treasury bonds), and another 2,2 trillion. rubles, as far as one can understand from the official data, are on the accounts at the Ministry of Finance as dead weight. So there is money, there is no nationally oriented elite thinking about its state.

        Quote: Arberes
        Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper!

        Such super-boats could be serially built by the USSR, since, unlike the Russian Federation, it possessed a developed science, a powerful industry and an appropriate personnel potential. The current Russian Federation, ruled by "effective" managers from a party of crooks and thieves, is not capable of such things, but it has top managers of "state corporations" with revenues of $ 50 million a year and the most expensive Winter Olympics in human history, and most importantly "Putin's plan" according to which she successfully moves "forward", which once again proves this article.
        1. cdrt
          cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 03
          +3
          Quote: rsnv
          In the Reserve Fund and the National Welfare Fund is 5,6 trillion. rub. (2,8 trillion in each) and mostly withdrawn from the country (invested in US Treasury bonds), and another 2,2 trillion. rubles, as far as you can understand from the official data, are on the accounts of the Ministry of Finance with dead weight


          1. Don't let the hands of the "corporation" (Russian military and defense-industrialists) access the national funds ... (no matter how much the local commentators would like to)

          2. About Severodvinsk - no wonder. Russian Sivulf will share the fate of the American. It is no accident that one-year projects receive a common fate.

          3. But an analogue of Virginia (type 671 at a new level) is needed, and in a "commercial" serial quantity - this is a fact, which is confirmed by the report

          4. Although ... if we consider that our military and designers are trying to cram armaments into each ship to the maximum (that is, the strategy is rather few super ships, not many medium ones), the series will be of the type of 10-12 units. In principle - you can take RN and multiply its numbers by 2 - we get 8-10 SSBNs, 10-12 PLA, 12 destroyers, as it will be so visible
      4. rolik
        rolik 29 November 2013 13: 55
        19
        Quote: Arberes
        No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What the fuck is in the end then !!!

        This is not a whore, this is the work of our current government in all its glory and effectiveness. What stools could not do, the government will do. A subtle hint to the guarantor that it is time to ask Dima and his comrades to leave the hall. Not so long ago, I don’t remember who, asked me if we could do everything that was planned for the 20th year in the Seva. I answered back then that we can. But we can only if there is a desire and funding from those in power. And here it is their desire, with such desires never, to build nothing. I'd love to see the names of this expert council. He always said that Rogozin pi .... bol, one more confirmation of my words.
      5. Army1
        Army1 29 November 2013 17: 39
        +3
        Quote: Arberes
        Boats are an effective, asymmetric weapon and we need them first of all!

        Yes, I would even say a powerful strike weapon, which negates the likelihood of a major nuclear or conventional war.
      6. mirag2
        mirag2 29 November 2013 18: 49
        +2
        Dear, money is spent on geopolitics, but bases in Egypt, Nicaragua what to open?
        And come back to Camran? And to give loans to Ukraine, Egypt, Venezuela?
        This is just offhand.
        And Sochi? I consider not necessary expenses, and to athletes millions for medals?
        And what about the exorbitant spending on "cultural" projects?
        Culture presses so much money for which it does NOT work out at all.
      7. pawel1961
        pawel1961 29 November 2013 23: 32
        0
        I want to note that our people have recently become more asymmetrical in everything. and there seems to be a problem here.
      8. sashka
        sashka 1 December 2013 02: 56
        0
        Are you going to fight with someone?
    2. Civil
      Civil 29 November 2013 11: 40
      13
      We arrived, we talked about this more than 10 years ago .... and how much will it take to create a new cheap project ?!
      1. Dmitry Zurn
        Dmitry Zurn 29 November 2013 12: 26
        +9
        Good afternoon. By the way, the American "Virginia" in comparison with the "Seawulf" also turned out not for three kopecks. And with us, just let people fantasize about new projects, they will take 90% of the money, it’s known where (for approval), then every year they will answer us for ten years and write that at the end of the year boat X will be built and launched. Sincerely.
        1. ramzes1776
          ramzes1776 29 November 2013 18: 00
          +9
          Quote: Dmitry Zurn
          . And with us, just let people fantasize about new projects, they will take the money 90%, it will be known where it will go (for approval)

          The brightest example of the office "Horns and Hooves" under the name "Rusnano" and "Skolkovo". So much dough is thrown in there, but at the exit there is zero. And from them "like water off a duck's back." Such an impression that it was created to make the loot just were transferred from the budget to bureaucratic accounts.
      2. tronin.maxim
        tronin.maxim 29 November 2013 12: 28
        12
        It seems to me that this report was written by liberals, respectively, and the result! Nuclear-powered vehicles are needed, if you have to eat, then you don’t feel sorry for the money!
        1. Fin
          Fin 29 November 2013 12: 56
          +2
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission

          Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people. both random and fairly well-known and competent.
          X ... they wrote some.
          1. rolik
            rolik 29 November 2013 14: 10
            10
            Quote: Fin
            Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people.


            CHAIRMAN OF THE PRESIDIUM OF THE EXPERT COUNCIL
            Remizov M.V.
            BIOGRAPHY
            Remizov Mikhail Vitalievich
            President of the Institute of National Strategy
            Member of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.
            Chairman of the Bureau of the Expert Council
            Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.

            Member of the Public Council under the Government of the Russian Federation.

            Born in 1978

            PhD in Philosophy

            In 2000 he graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy of Moscow State University. M.V. Lomonosova

            In 2001-2003 - Editor of the policy department of the Russian Journal

            In 2004-2005 - Chief Editor of the Political News Agency (APN)

            From 2005 to present - President, Institute of National Strategy

            In 2010-2011 - Director of the Civil Initiatives Support Fund
            "Strategy 2020"

            Well-known political scientist and publicist. Research and scientific interests: history of political ideologies, ethnopolitics, national security, theory of economic development, industrial policy.

            The author of the monograph “The Experience of Conservative Criticism” and more than 200 scientific and journalistic articles. Permanent author of the publications Expert, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Gazeta.ru, Russky Zhurnal, Logos, etc. Scientific editor and co-author of more than 40 public analytical reports on domestic and international politics.
            Or maybe entot (e) an effective manager led this orchestra ?????
            1. shpuntik
              shpuntik 29 November 2013 16: 14
              +7
              rolik (4) SU Today, 14:10 PM ↑ New
              Quote: Fin
              Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people.

              CHAIRMAN OF THE PRESIDIUM OF THE EXPERT COUNCIL
              Remizov M.V.
              BIOGRAPHY

              Well, Judah was spotlighted, +. Grandfather Gareev, who else? Google doesn’t even take it.
              1. Fin
                Fin 29 November 2013 17: 37
                +1
                Quote: shpuntik
                Grandfather Gareev, who else? Google doesn’t even take it.

                Gareev Mahmut Akhmetovich President of the Academy of Military Sciences
                Chairman of the Expert Council of the Military-Industrial
                Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Born on July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk. http://sovetvpk.ru/
                1. rolik
                  rolik 29 November 2013 19: 52
                  +4
                  Quote: Fin
                  Gareev Makhmut Akhmetovich

                  What was famous for Makhmut Akhmetovich at the present stage of the history of the Russian state? By age, it is clear that he fought. For this huge thank you and bow to the earth. But now we don’t need to put our military-industrial complex on the brakes, only from the pit, more like w ... pu, they started to crawl out.
                  1. Fin
                    Fin 29 November 2013 20: 44
                    +3
                    Quote: rolik
                    What was famous for Makhmut Akhmetovich at the present stage of the history of the Russian state?

                    RollerDo you think that I consider him an expert? I wrote that granddad then the furniture that they slip in will sign. I saw the Chairman of the Presidium, read the whole composition.
                    You better write to us about the successes, plans of the NSR, we will be happy.
                    1. rolik
                      rolik 30 November 2013 00: 08
                      +8
                      Quote: Fin
                      to, do you think that I consider him an expert?

                      I did not think of it. He asked, as I usually do, out of curiosity. I’m actually wondering what this comrade is doing at his post. If he cuts down the roots of the state, he will be honored with retirement. If it brings benefits - to the board of honor, and as an example to give all the leaders.
                      And we have such news; “Alexander Nevsky” returned on the 27th, it was a control exit. Now we will prepare for transfer to the fleet. The decision is when an acceptance certificate will be signed and a flag hoist made for our esteemed MO.
                      Budnichenko went to the GDP for a meeting in Sochi. GDP said, however, about 8 strategists. So, God forbid, they will not cut the number by number.
                      And finally, the photo of Vikramaditya before going to India. Bringing from the wall to the water, by the forces of our tugs and tugs Zvezdochki. Seven feet)))))
                      1. Onyx
                        Onyx 30 November 2013 22: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: rolik
                        Budnichenko went to the GDP for a meeting in Sochi. GDP said, however, about 8 strategists. So, God forbid, they will not cut the number by number.

                        Recently, Chirkov said that the construction of Boreev is also expected after 2020.
                      2. rolik
                        rolik 1 December 2013 02: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Onyx
                        Recently, Chirkov said that the construction of Boreev is also expected after 2020.

                        Infa, yet, no. Let's hope that for now)))) Although, we have already begun, like, to draw a new generation, Maybe by the 20th they will be cast))))
                      3. Onyx
                        Onyx 1 December 2013 02: 14
                        +2
                        Quote: rolik
                        Infa, yet, no. Let's hope that for now)))) Although, we have already begun, like, to draw a new generation, Maybe by the 20th they will be cast))))

                        Expect a long-term shipbuilding program. It seems that in early 2014 they should submit to the supreme
                  2. Fin
                    Fin 1 December 2013 00: 43
                    +2
                    Quote: rolik
                    Bringing from the wall to the water, by the forces of our tugs and tugs Zvezdochki. Seven feet

                    Thank. And we will meet and spend it here.
                  3. rolik
                    rolik 1 December 2013 02: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Fin
                    Thank. And we will meet and spend it here.

                    Murmansk ???))))
                2. typhoon7
                  typhoon7 1 December 2013 19: 09
                  +1
                  Beautiful ship, even sorry to part. Seven feet under the keel!
          2. alone
            alone 29 November 2013 20: 56
            +2
            Quote: Fin
            Chairman of the Expert Council of the Military-Industrial
            Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Born on July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk.


            he is already 90 years old. what did you expect from the 90th old man?
            1. Fin
              Fin 29 November 2013 22: 01
              +4
              Quote: lonely
              he is already 90 years old. what did you expect from the 90th old man?

              Absolutely nothing, except that he was already resting, and not working as a wedding general. Everything will be done behind his back, and they will be covered. No offense.
          3. shpuntik
            shpuntik 30 November 2013 07: 08
            +1
            Fin RU Yesterday, 17:37 ↑
            Quote: shpuntik
            Grandfather Gareev July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk. http://sovetvpk.ru/

            hi good
      3. 31231
        31231 29 November 2013 20: 11
        +3
        Thank. From the military expert from the faculty neighing. I understand that he did not even serve ?!
        1. Danash I
          Danash I 30 November 2013 12: 44
          +1
          It’s also alerted. It’s like I’m a Ph.D. . And there and there they are. and when will quantity turn into quality? That is a question of philosophy.
      4. vkrav
        vkrav 30 November 2013 20: 32
        +3
        And his name is definitely not Shmulinson? And then the face, track record and mode of action are openly scorching him ...
  2. Nayhas
    Nayhas 29 November 2013 13: 26
    +4
    Quote: tronin.maxim
    It seems to me that this report was written by liberals, respectively, and the result!

    No, the State Department ordered the Anglo-Saxons, and they published Wahhabis through the Islamists!
  3. cdrt
    cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 08
    0
    Quote: tronin.maxim
    Nuclear-powered vehicles are needed, if you have to eat, then you don’t feel sorry for the money!


    And I feel sorry ... especially for the 8 prodigies.
    If you can actually build 16 cheaper boats - they need to be built. Quantity tends to overpower quality
    1. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 29 November 2013 21: 28
      +2
      Quote: cdrt
      If you can actually build 16 cheaper boats - they need to be built. Quantity tends to overpower quality

      It is necessary to study the classics.
    2. lelikas
      lelikas 30 November 2013 18: 47
      +2
      Really cheaper will not work, at a price a maximum of 25 percent will be removed, but at the same time money for the development of a new project will be withdrawn immeasurably, in the end the same amount will come out.
      It’s not a question to remove launching rockets from them - the boat will become cheaper, but at the same time it will be necessary to build a series of parachutes with cruise missiles instead of loaves - and this is not a small day.
      Somewhat wrong amounts and quantities, it will probably work here - We are not so rich that we would buy cheap things.
      An example of "budgetary" modernization of the T-72 before our eyes.
      1. clidon
        clidon 30 November 2013 19: 46
        +1
        So instead of "loaves" there may be a series of 6 "Ash trees", and a cut-down project will be ordered for them. Moreover, it is quite cheap to "knock" out of the spent 971st, and leave the missiles only in the TA, etc. It is clear that the basis of the submarine forces "Ash" due to cost cannot be. Some of them were already cut regularly, now they just said about it more or less openly.
        1. typhoon7
          typhoon7 1 December 2013 19: 18
          0
          I watched “News of the Week”, it seems that the GDP gave the task to carry out the program on Ashes by 2020, if I did not miss anything.
  • ramzes1776
    ramzes1776 29 November 2013 17: 55
    +5
    Quote: Civil
    We arrived, we talked about this more than 10 years ago .... and how much will it take to create a new cheap project ?!

    20 years have passed since the boat was laid and during this time nothing new was invented. am and now turnip is scratched expensively fool It turns out that all the existing projects are from the time of the USSR, but by no means a new Russia. And maybe there is already nobody to develop something new?
  • Turik
    Turik 29 November 2013 12: 28
    14
    Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer? Kalashami? Or tanks, which we have so few? I’m silent about aviation in general. We do not and are unlikely to have parity on conventional weapons.

    Stalin invested the last penny in the country's defense, part of the population even rightly says that he robbed the country. Only because of this, the Russians are alive, and not roasted alive according to the "Dropshot" plan or other 5 foreign "projects".

    Now what are the rulers of my country hoping for - what will they be able to bring down before the day of the big pi @ #% ec? If yes, then in vain - no one needs such embezzlers and mediocrity in the west, they have plenty of their own.
    1. rsnv
      rsnv 29 November 2013 13: 45
      +8
      Quote: Turik
      Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer?

      It’s unlikely that they will bomb, it’s very expensive, and it’s dangerous. They will stop supplying food, medicine and medical equipment, they will disconnect civilian communication systems, they will destroy the financial system, the fifth column and separatism will start to finance shock, so there are enough ways without bombs.
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 29 November 2013 17: 21
        +2
        Quote: rsnv
        Stop supplying food, medicine and medical equipment, disconnect civil communication systems

        And this is a very long time for us to roam. Yes, and the capitalist will be strangled by 10% of the profit. They cannot do anything with North Korea, but you say .....
    2. cdrt
      cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 11
      -3
      Quote: Turik
      And if they bomb us, what will we answer?


      Who are you, my dear, is going to bomb?
      And most importantly - how will you respond to bombing with the help of strike submarines?
      I would understand the indignation if they were going to cut the mace of the Mace - those are just so that no one would think to bomb
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 29 November 2013 17: 27
        0
        Quote: cdrt
        And most importantly - how will you respond to bombing with the help of strike submarines?

        But what is forbidden to shoot at NATO ships? Yes, and land can be hit on the basis of declared weapons
        In general, it would be necessary to build 100 pieces of ammunition with ammunition; only a massive salvo can penetrate the defense
    3. alone
      alone 29 November 2013 20: 57
      +2
      Quote: Turik
      Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer? Kalashami? Or tanks, which we have so few? I’m silent about aviation in general. We do not and are unlikely to have parity on conventional weapons.


      It seems that during the collapse of the USSR no one bombed us.
  • Sakmagon
    Sakmagon 29 November 2013 12: 59
    +3
    Yes, wait so yell, you are not a Jew, you will not be circumcised ...
    "Building major series "Ash" in the coming decades is too heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and is hardly necessary from a military "

    - no one refuses to build!
    ... in the next decade and a half, the Russian Navy should receive at least 16-18 multipurpose nuclear submarines. But to realize this goal at the expense of the nuclear submarine project 885 "Ash" is hardly advisable ...

    - why? maybe simply because "the lead nuclear submarine of project 855 Yasen, which was laid down at Sevmash back in 1993, has an unprecedentedly long history of childbirth ..."? And much of what is in it has already begun to become outdated? - or are there more modern designs that you can't stick into the old building without "perestroika"? Who knew the details?
    multipurpose nuclear submarines should be built according to a new project - unified with Yasen in basic systems

    So what? Where is the betrayal? Sober and pragmatic calculation!
    I wonder if it’s not those who are now shouting "Come on right away and more!" quite recently they were crying "... one of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR fleet is the construction of all types of ships not large - in HUGE series, as a result, there was simply not enough funding for the super-newest samples ..."
    1. rolik
      rolik 29 November 2013 14: 17
      +8
      Quote: Sacmagon
      maybe simply because "the lead nuclear submarine of project 855 Yasen, which was laid down at Sevmash back in 1993, has an unprecedentedly long history of childbirth ..."? And much of what is in it has already begun to become outdated? - or are there more modern designs that you can't stick into the old building without "perestroika"? Who knew the details?

      Everything is normally stuck in and stuck out)))))) A large series, this is just the series that should be built by the 20th year.
      While they will give the finished project another 10-15 years will pass, in the current situation. And where is the guarantee that the new project will be better than the previous when it cut off all the primary sexual characteristics of a real male.
    2. cdrt
      cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 14
      -4
      Quote: Sacmagon
      one of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR fleet is the construction of all types of vessels not large - in HUGE series


      And where were the huge series in the USSR fleet?
      Rather, their absence and the presence of a million and a half similar projects.
      And about super-modern projects - a large number of good reliable weapons are victorious, and not a small amount of super-modern / super-efficient.
  • knn54
    knn54 29 November 2013 14: 07
    +4
    -Volodya Sibiryak: it is necessary to eradicate embezzlement
    There is no sufficient control over pricing, an UNTRASPURABLE financing system - the price of the Severodvinsk nuclear submarine (I am sure) is unreasonably high.
    -Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission ...
    Organizations and conferences: Whenever possible, entrust all matters to the committees “for further study and consideration”. Try to make the committees as large and as bureaucratic as possible - at least five people. Hold conferences when there is more urgent work.
    SPECIAL item in the CIA Sabotage Manual.
    -It is comparable to the American submarine Sea Wolf, but more versatile than its American counterpart.
    She may be the best nuclear submarine of a similar class in the world. In a one-on-one duel, Severodvinsk will not give a chance to win either Sea Wolf or Virginia.
    PS The submarine forces of the Russian Navy today comprise about 30 multipurpose nuclear submarines. All of them belong to the third generation. For comparison, in the USA, fourth-generation submarines have been added to fifty of the third generation submarines in recent years: three of the Sea Wolf type and five of the Virginia type. By 2024, the US Defense Department plans to bring the number of Virginia-class nuclear submarines to 30 units. In the Russian Federation only in the long-term plans no more than six Ashes are planned (and when, at such a pace?). In addition to NATO, China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Thailand show increased activity in the north of the globe, which negatively affects the state of economic interests of the Russian Federation.
    WHO is sitting in the commission ???
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 16
      0
      Quote: knn54
      In addition to NATO, China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Thailand show increased activity in the north of the globe.


      About the activity of the fleets of Malaysia and Thailand delivered laughing
  • dmitrich
    dmitrich 29 November 2013 16: 05
    0
    and who is the author of the article?
  • pawel1961
    pawel1961 29 November 2013 23: 27
    +3
    A.P.L. essentially cannot be cheap.
  • Geisenberg
    Geisenberg 30 November 2013 02: 08
    +1
    Quote: Volodya Sibiryak
    It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.


    Somewhere in Langley the boys are now sitting and taking to the chest, to the pelts and to the hips - such an armament program was cheated and so easy, just bought a commission, cheap and cheerful, and there was still money left for the girls.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Andrey Skokovsky
    Andrey Skokovsky 30 November 2013 12: 07
    +1
    everything is much simpler
    you just need to see where this idea came from
    the article clearly says: "Expert Council under the Government of the Russian Federation",
    I don’t know about you, but my questions to the Navy disappear immediately, but one request appears
    WRITE THE SURNAMES OF THESE "EXPERTS" !!!! and also where all these "experts" have studied.
    no, the addresses of the "experts" are not needed ...... not yet.
  • Ascetic
    Ascetic 30 November 2013 12: 57
    +5
    Quote: Volodya Sibiryak
    It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.


    It's not about embezzlement and lack of money. In the same states, trillions are stolen and then blamed on fighting. The fact is that Ash is a very complex project. The same Sea Wolfe Laid down in 1989 was handed over to the American Navy only in 1997. The British have been building and putting into service the Astute for nine years. The lead ship of the Yasen project was laid down back in 1993, and the second ship of the Kazan nuclear submarine (this is Yasen-M) was laid down only in 2009, in July of this year, Novosibimrsk was laid down when money went under the state armaments program. In fact, the project was frozen and resumed only since 2009.
    So now, at the top there is a struggle between two ideas or directions for the further development of programs for multipurpose nuclear submarines. The authors of this report want
    follow the American path - replacing the expensive Seawulf project with the Virginia project, that is limit the construction of boats of the project 885 to 4 - 6 hulls and build nuclear submarines of a new project, "unified with Yasenem in the main systems, but carrying simplified composition of weapons.This idea is pushed by the representative of the external American administration lobbyist Remizov. Their opponents are opposed to implementing the current program to create a unified multi-purpose nuclear submarine with powerful diverse weapons despite technical difficulties and high cost. unification and serial production of the same type of boat. The American path for two projects, each of which is simpler and cheaper IMHO, will nevertheless lead to the dispersal of funds and winning in the number and diversity of boats, we will lose in their ultimate combat power. the question is not really the money, but the understanding of the question - what is the best way to have a fleet, several highly specialized boats or one universal
    Now we are waiting for an article in defense of Ashen.
  • Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 29 November 2013 11: 26
    20
    Naturally, a modern submarine is an expensive thing, but the country needs them.
    1. rolik
      rolik 29 November 2013 16: 42
      +5
      Quote: Andrey Yurievich
      Naturally, a modern submarine is an expensive thing, but the country needs them

      Not more expensive than a peaceful sleep of loved ones.
  • stayer
    stayer 29 November 2013 11: 28
    18
    Modern, advanced weapons cannot be cheap. Yes, it’s hard, but Russia needs a strong fleet, this is a long-term investment, not only in the Fleet, but also in the security of Russia.
  • Migari
    Migari 29 November 2013 11: 28
    +6
    The main thing is to ensure the security of the country, everything should be within reason, and there should be modernization and necessarily new nuclear submarine projects.
  • Wolland
    Wolland 29 November 2013 11: 29
    +3
    In the USSR, everything that stood out, before the ruble went to CONSTRUCTION, Different times, different people ..... it becomes sad from this ....
  • avt
    avt 29 November 2013 11: 29
    10
    Or maybe a good universal project turned out? So you decided to slow it down? Or did they decide to design something more interesting based on the results of work at Sarov? Then it would be understandable and logical, rather than simple savings.
    1. shpuntik
      shpuntik 29 November 2013 16: 20
      +5
      avt (3) SU Today, 11:29 AM New
      Or did you get a good universal project? So you decided to slow it down?

      Most likely it is. For twenty years to build what they wanted, these red-headed Gaidarites? After all, people need to pay wages, and on a monthly basis, without delay. 20 * 12 = 240 months * 1000 $ * 1 person = 240 thousand dollars / per 1 person. And how many people participated in the construction, including subcontractors and rocket launchers? On average, two thousand. There are already half a billion bucks. Without the cost of material. Plus, she’s the head one. Somewhere 1,3-1,5 lard cost.
      It is possible that the "partners" were asked not to strain the situation at sea.
      As for Sarov, it is unlikely, or they slow down, or then through Skolkovo the technology will merge. They have no interest in a strong Russia in everything.
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 29 November 2013 11: 30
    14
    That's why I was in no hurry to shout "Hurray!" in the next branch. A beautiful picture of Putin reviving the army on Channel One is one thing, but the undercover struggle for saws is quite another. So, you look, and it turns out that in the end we will have one boat - a unique, inimitable, and unparalleled in the world. Unparalleled, because one ... sad
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 11: 41
      +5
      Quote: Stiletto
      That's why I was in no hurry to shout "Hurray!" in the next branch. A beautiful picture of Putin reviving the army on Channel One is one thing, but the undercover struggle for saws is quite another.

      put "reviving" in quotation marks - and it will be the same ...
    2. 10kAzAk01
      10kAzAk01 29 November 2013 11: 47
      +2
      So, you look, and it turns out that in the end we will have one boat - unique, inimitable, and unparalleled in the world. Unparalleled, because one ..

      In Soviet times, such projects were unique (1 copy each) of the mountain, ... it didn’t go any further ...
  • Kibalchish
    Kibalchish 29 November 2013 11: 31
    +7
    It took too long to build from here and the price. The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 11: 39
      +4
      Quote: Kibalchish
      The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.

      and it will turn out to be the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ...
      1. Kibalchish
        Kibalchish 29 November 2013 11: 41
        +1
        Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.
        1. military
          military 29 November 2013 11: 47
          +6
          Quote: Kibalchish
          Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.

          in our country, all such decisions are made solely by goats devouring cabbage in the state garden ... winked
        2. cdrt
          cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 18
          -2
          Quote: Kibalchish
          Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.


          Judging by the many comments here - not unfortunately laughing
          If they really create a project cheaper, then 16 submarines are cheaper than 8 expensive ones
      2. Stiletto
        Stiletto 29 November 2013 12: 26
        +6
        Quote: military
        and you get the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ..


        And how! The Mistral is called. bully
        1. military
          military 29 November 2013 14: 51
          0
          Quote: Stiletto
          And how! The Mistral is called.

          Well, what do you object? ...
          pi-pi-pi-pi-pi-pi-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-... -... am
      3. Manul
        Manul 29 November 2013 12: 57
        +2
        Quote: military

        and it will turn out to be the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ...

        I don’t think it’s worth touching the boat of Peter I. All the same, it’s history, a symbol, and if it hadn’t - would there be a Russian fleet now and in past history? So it is demanded by the memory of generations and respect for the heritage .. Follow the words.
        1. military
          military 29 November 2013 14: 49
          +2
          Quote: Manul
          I don’t think it’s worth touching the boat of Peter I. All the same, it’s history, a symbol, and if it hadn’t - would there be a Russian fleet now and in past history? So it is demanded by the memory of generations and respect for the heritage .. Follow the words.

          follow the context and learn to understand what is at stake ...
          I do not want the Russian fleet to be at the level of a "boat" and through the efforts of our "statesmen" it itself became just a symbol of its former power and the memory of generations ...
    2. alexng
      alexng 29 November 2013 12: 27
      +6
      Quote: Kibalchish
      The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.


      This is likely to happen. It’s just that they wrote an article to sway calm and create excitement in the networks.
  • q_556
    q_556 29 November 2013 11: 35
    11
    Sabotage, otherwise you cannot call it. Enough money for summer cottages on Rublevka, but not for submarines? Even with the huge defense budget ?! negative

    And even if you abandon 885 - how to replace them? Do we have another promising multi-purpose submarine project?

    Five or six missing units can be replenished by repair, modernization and, accordingly, extending the life of existing submarines, which have retained their resource potential for this.

    This is what killed me the most: of course, the shortage of new submarines can be filled by modernizing old ones ... You can also refuse to buy new cars for our elite - to put them on "Seagulls" and that's it.
    You might think that we have so many nuclear submarines that have "preserved their resource potential" that there is nowhere to go straight to ...
    1. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 29 November 2013 11: 57
      +9
      Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!
      And to separate them from fat salaries !!!
      Why do they have salaries of hundreds of thousands, for the fact that we can’t produce anything meaningful ?!
      1. military
        military 29 November 2013 12: 01
        14
        Quote: Starover_Z
        Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!

        transplant freaks to the "classics" ... to the "used" ones ...
        1. coserg 2012
          coserg 2012 29 November 2013 20: 16
          0
          And remove the drivers, let them rule!
      2. 10kAzAk01
        10kAzAk01 29 November 2013 12: 13
        +6
        And to separate them from fat salaries !!!

        In general, I propose that deputies pay an average salary over the entire budget (teachers, doctors, etc., plus the average pension ..) and therefore about holding a referendum in the country ... What is their salary ??? Hourly ???
      3. alone
        alone 29 November 2013 21: 00
        0
        Quote: Starover_Z
        Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!


        rather, deputies will rename their Mercia to fret-viburnum! and increase their salaries by 100% for moral damage.
  • engineer74
    engineer74 29 November 2013 11: 36
    +3
    which was prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation

    Curious to know what kind of experts are on the council? Again, any representatives of "civil society"?
    1. Tektor
      Tektor 29 November 2013 14: 40
      +5
      In fact, "noble rage boils up": so much time and money was wasted on fine-tuning the super boat and now it is proposed to start over - to spend new time and money on a new one ??? Akuet. Time is the only non-renewable resource. What do they think there? The project needs to be implemented - these are boats of the far sea zone and there are about 12 of them. Near-field boats are much easier and cheaper to make, but they will not replace Ash. A kind of analogy with the T-80 and T-72: a super tank, but expensive and half-tank, but cheap, i.e. tankers need the T-80, and the budget (and export) needs the T-72. With tanks, not everything is clear, because their number matters. But with boats - not quite so.
  • propolsky
    propolsky 29 November 2013 11: 37
    +5
    Calmness and confidence have a much higher price! New submarines - a guarantee for thirty years, do not save!
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 29 November 2013 11: 41
      11
      quote-The creation of a large series of "Ash" is too heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and is hardly necessary from a military - a categorical and, frankly, not very pleasant for the creators of such submarines, is contained in the report, which was prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under government of the Russian Federation and distributed at the All-Russian Forum "Shipbuilding and Navigation in Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency".

      Saving on the country's defense and national security is extremely dangerous and criminal.

      No comment.
      1. shtanko.49
        shtanko.49 29 November 2013 12: 22
        +4
        If the commission was under the patronage of Medvedev, then there was nothing to wait for, he would only have to sell something - an effective manager.
      2. Wild_grey_wolf
        Wild_grey_wolf 29 November 2013 14: 09
        +2
        WHAT BEAUTY AND POWER. . .
        1. Tektor
          Tektor 29 November 2013 22: 36
          -2
          Perhaps, with some modernization, the 885 project will result in a missile defense submarine, which will be able to shoot down their BRs on take-off near the borders of the adversary and Ohio patrol areas. Ashenes have the opportunity to achieve the milestone of the use of anti-missiles, only these anti-missiles themselves are needed, suitable for the dimensions of the launcher and radar or target designation.
  • iwind
    iwind 29 November 2013 11: 42
    11
    Hmm ....
    The project is 90 years old, and still complicated and too expensive ... Hey.
    Apparently less to steal and spend trillions on different image-building projects is not a variant.
    This boat is needed and preferably not in a stripped-down version. In the surface fleet, we are far from in the first place, that we also want the submarine fleet to slow down on the brakes ... to lower it.
    Who will Borey accompany or hunt for apl and ships of the enemy, apparently it will be Serdik.
  • twister
    twister 29 November 2013 11: 42
    18
    Well it’s clear ..... fire into space is not expensive, but is a strategic boat expensive?
  • umah
    umah 29 November 2013 11: 48
    +6
    Interestingly, are experts or iksperds in this council? If the latter, it’s strange that they didn’t offer to simply split the money instead of the boats.
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 12: 04
      +5
      Quote: umah
      Interestingly, are experts or iksperds in this council?

      in such tips - each creature has a pair ... basically, it's just "... fart" ...
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 29 November 2013 11: 49
    10
    Quote: twister
    Well it’s clear ..... fire into space is not expensive, but is a strategic boat expensive?


    Well, after all, to the Olympiad "our beloved partners", read - p .. they will come, they like beautiful multi-colored lights more than the formidable Russian weapon ...
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 12: 08
      +6
      Quote: Stiletto
      Well, after all, to the Olympiad "our beloved partners", read - p .. they will come, they like beautiful multi-colored lights more than the formidable Russian weapon ...

      worst of all is that our home-grown "p..s" quite share the opinion of their foreign partners ...
  • avg
    avg 29 November 2013 12: 03
    11
    I love football, a sinful thing. But, without hesitation, I would give the 2018 championship for a few Ash trees. You see, along the way I would have saved many leaders from negligence. wink
  • Asgard
    Asgard 29 November 2013 12: 08
    10
    In fact, the statement is landmark, nothing is shy, engineering projects are not pulling, the degradation of industry and personnel)))
    And most importantly, where the Statements, the presidential council, again Vova will be forced to sign, as with the entry into the WTO)))) "twisting his hands", as Deputy Fedor says)) to the notary-president ...

    But this is the most optimal counterweight to the AUG of the US Navy ...And the Yankees really s-sykatno when in the Gulf of Mexico pop up "Carcasses" of the Soviet development with the names put out the light))))

    Or is it better to transfer money according to the "Budgetary Rule" approved by Putin directly to the US Budget and contain an "exchanger" - which is actually the Central Bank of Russia ....
    Let the Russians take the money (stolen)) as in Cyprus, on the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man, Virgin and other offshore ...

    There will be no submarine, VISA & MASTERCARD payment systems will be blocked. Putin has not created a NATIONAL PAYMENT SYSTEM ("" "" patriot "" "")))

    (well, for sure))

    Forced to state ..... K A R A L ... ALL P R S R A L I)))))))))))))))
    1. lucidlook
      lucidlook 29 November 2013 15: 48
      +3
      Quote: Asgard
      again Vova will be forced to sign, as with the entry into the WTO)))) "twisting his arms," ​​as Deputy Fedor says)

      It reminds me of something. Like, he didn’t know what he was signing. This is not his fault. Yes of course...

      For the WTO, Putin himself personally campaigned live. "Rather a plus." FORGOT? So I can remind you! We are watching from around 5:50.

  • leha1128
    leha1128 29 November 2013 12: 10
    14
    Of course, there is 1 trillion at the Olympics, but there is no defense of the homeland
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 14: 16
      +6
      Quote: leha1128
      Of course, there is 1 trillion at the Olympics, but there is no defense of the homeland

      Olympiad - a satisfying trough ... there is where to squeeze and where to roll back ...
      and from a submarine ... only an anchor ... in the ass ...
      our "fixers" are not interested in this alignment ...
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 29 November 2013 12: 21
    +9
    in the coming decades it will be extremely economically and engineeringly
    That is, everyone has something to say about "it takes a lot of money", but about the engineering "heavy load" everything is like a mouthful of water. Where are the "specialists" calling to build only at our shipyards and only according to our projects? Something is invisible and crowds of managers are going to retrain to become an engineer in order to help the country build the best boats in the world, albeit losing money and working hard. And for some reason no one is eager to become skilled workers. Maybe this is the result?
    1. Manul
      Manul 29 November 2013 13: 19
      +2
      Quote: chunga-changa
      That is, everyone has something to say about "it takes a lot of money", but about the engineering "heavy load" everything is like a mouthful of water. Where are the "specialists" calling to build only at our shipyards and only according to our projects? Something is invisible and crowds of managers are going to retrain to become an engineer in order to help the country build the best boats in the world, albeit losing money and working hard. And for some reason no one is eager to become skilled workers. Maybe this is the result?

      So you think it’s the people's fault? And I hope you work as a teacher at school? Or a doctor in a clinic? Your contempt gives you a venerable troll. Do you really think that Stalin immediately got a bunch of specialists, engineers and workers? And they no matter what , we learned all this (apparently on the Internet or according to my grandmother) and went to work for the good of the country ???
      1. chunga-changa
        chunga-changa 29 November 2013 21: 59
        +1
        Yes, exactly what I have been working for the good of the country, for the last couple of years I have been a foreman at a construction site, in a state office. We are building state-owned residential buildings, and there are some. It's not even funny about Stalin and the specialists, of course the USSR left the "new Russia" with devastation and one and a half engineers and those foreigners. As for the fault of the people, yes, the people are to blame. Engineers and workers are the people, and if, for example, you are not ready to sacrifice pleasant and money-rich office work for the sake of, say, work in the winter at a construction site, then you are also to blame for what is happening around. Well, except of course the crowds of menageries, the main product of the "new Russia". These are understandably not to blame for anything, their circumstances forced them to make such a difficult life choice. ONET lawyers.
  • b-130
    b-130 29 November 2013 12: 33
    +2
    Shame! Since we can’t create a competitive economy (for now), then at least what is needed must be protected! Again liberalists stick stick ...
  • b-130
    b-130 29 November 2013 12: 34
    +2
    Liberasts are coming !!!
  • Alexander I
    Alexander I 29 November 2013 12: 40
    +7
    Guess which country in the world does not have its own national government?
    1. VadimL
      VadimL 30 November 2013 10: 02
      0
      Which one? Maybe the Vatican? lol
  • arnulla
    arnulla 29 November 2013 12: 42
    +4
    Announce the list of the "Expert Council". I will note that under the Government of the Russian Federation, that is, under Medvedev ... But in general, as a boat that actually replaces TWO classes, be inexpensive ?? !!
  • killganoff
    killganoff 29 November 2013 12: 42
    +9
    There are indeed quite a few technical and other problems with "Ash", so they do not dare to highlight one of the darkest sides of the medal, show more acceptable. This is the problem of our entire military-industrial complex, the point is not only in economy.
  • Panikovsky
    Panikovsky 29 November 2013 12: 47
    +1
    But maybe you don’t need to boil, citizens? The conclusions of the expert council are not yet a government decree. let's wait for the final decision. although the conclusions spoiled these moods.
  • patsantre
    patsantre 29 November 2013 13: 04
    10
    What is the point of replacing Ash with something else? A modern nuclear submarine will be expensive anyway, and taking into account the development costs and all the cuts, it is unlikely to be cheaper! And what's the point of trimming its weapons? Which high-tech gadgets are going to be removed from Ash M? As far as I know, this is a modernized project, as the letter M. speaks of. This is almost the only weapon that can fight against the AUG, and in general, the boat is universal, it can strike from land and land, and heat ships and boats! How are they going to refuse it? I don’t see any prohibitive prices! The Navy is going to spend 4.5 trillion by 2020, if during this time to build a series of 8 nuclear submarines, it will cost 400-800 billion. Let's take an average of 600 billion. This is 13% from 4.5 trillion. Considering that it is the only ship of the 1st rank manufactured today, and is capable of performing a wide range of tasks, 13% is such a trifle! In my opinion, it is precisely on the construction of Ash-trees that we need to focus on.
    1. military
      military 29 November 2013 14: 33
      +4
      Quote: patsantre
      At the Navy, they are planning to spend 4.5 trillion by 2020, if a series of 8 nuclear submarines is built during this time, it will cost 400-800 billion. Let's take an average of 600 billion, which is 13% of 4.5 trillion.

      this is in the "pink" optimistic scenario ... when there is this very 4,5 trillion ... today they are only on a piece of paper called GPV-2020 ... nothing, mind you, not a guaranteed piece of paper ... there will be denyuzhki - pinched off for the program, there will be no money - smoke bamboo ... and everything goes exactly to the point that no money is expected in the declared volumes ... and the pompous program, promoted for the elections, is quite capable of "giving oak" in a number of positions ...
      therefore, before sequestering it, it is quite reasonable to massage the skeleton of "economic overload" and redundancy ...
      it's only the beginning...
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 29 November 2013 19: 17
        +3
        Quote: military
        this is in the "pink" optimistic scenario ... when there are those same 4,5 trillion ... today they are only on a piece of paper called GPV-2020 ... nothing, mind you, not a guaranteed piece of paper ...

        This, of course, is true. There will be less money, but this is not a reason to abandon the Ashen. It is a strategic program. It and the Boreas must be brought at all costs.
        I will not even talk about corruption and senseless spending, like the 2018 World Cup.
        Even if the question arises about intra-naval economy, it is possible to resell unnecessary Mistrals (if the agreement with the French allows this to be done), refuse to repair Kuznetsov, limit the construction of corvettes, etc., but you should not touch Ash.
  • q_556
    q_556 29 November 2013 13: 08
    +6
    Also, one should not forget that Ash is not only a nuclear submarine with high performance characteristics, but also a direct counterbalance to the American Virginia class nuclear submarines. In 10 years, when most of Los Angeles is decommissioned, it is Virginia that will become the main force of the US submarine fleet, and we need to have submarines that can contain them.
  • Lnosow
    Lnosow 29 November 2013 13: 30
    +7
    Strongly expensive, because it greatly interferes with the Americans. And the LADIES with their liberals in the government and bends under them. Strongly they do not like "ASH".
  • andrey777
    andrey777 29 November 2013 13: 55
    0
    I don’t understand why they put the article a plus, because the report is designed to prevent the construction of these ships, thereby putting Russia at risk of survival.
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 29 November 2013 14: 01
      +3
      So go ahead and minus the reports! Why didn’t the article please you? The author ascertained the fact and reported the information, thanks to him in the form of pluses, and that the information is unpleasant, he is no longer to blame.
    2. alone
      alone 29 November 2013 21: 02
      +2
      Quote: andrey777
      I don’t understand why they put the article a plus, because the report is designed to prevent the construction of these ships, thereby putting Russia at risk of survival.


      and what to do? Hang the author for writing the bitter truth in the article?
  • Jin
    Jin 29 November 2013 14: 06
    +3
    Quote: Russ69
    Serdyukov will be announced within ten days, possibly under a more serious article.


    It is good to...
  • user1212
    user1212 29 November 2013 14: 08
    0
    Again whining from a series about *** whether all polymers
    Why START building a series of boats that is inferior to EXISTING American counterparts (I'm talking about Virginia)? For what figs to build obsolete trash for rabid grandmothers? It is only in the "documentaries" of the first channel that Severodvinsk is not inferior or even superior. While Virginia is already in the series.
    Another important point is the future modernization of the 885 Ash. Remember that the boat began to be designed in 1977. The American series is 10-15 years fresh. Do you really think that since those years nothing new has been invented in the field of electronics, hydroacoustics and other things? Virginia has some pretty good upgrade options. Severodvinsk has almost none. At the moment, there are boat projects that are better and cheaper than the long-suffering Severodvinsk. The boat is good, but it was outdated during construction.
    1. Odysseus
      Odysseus 29 November 2013 19: 21
      +1
      Quote: user1212
      For what figs to build obsolete trash for rabid grandmothers?

      The boat of the new project is going to be simplified even more. Ash is "too complicated".
      Quote: user1212
      At the moment there are boat projects that are better and cheaper

      "Announce the entire list, please"
      Particularly interested in cheaper ....
  • Sirs
    Sirs 29 November 2013 14: 09
    +2
    I am against the need to build their pieces 10-12 and everything will be fine, officials to reduce costs, let them go to the domestic auto industry for example, etc.
  • Dwarfik
    Dwarfik 29 November 2013 14: 11
    +2
    kind! What nonsense, what does it mean "ineffective". Smells ... no ... stinks! an outright disruption of industrial production!
  • alex56
    alex56 29 November 2013 14: 12
    +3
    I will write quite possibly an seditious thing, but nonetheless))
    There is some truth in the words about the unnecessaryness of such an expensive project, and how sad it is.
    Trying to embrace the immense, the designers and the customer want everything from one boat at once. And that on land worked, and at sea coped perfectly. It would not have happened, as in the proverb about two birds with one stone ((
    Maybe it’s worth:
    First, turn to the Pike project, complete existing ones, rework an existing project, like Varshavyanka?
    Secondly, get away from multifunctionality? Let there be three classes (and not two as planned): carriers of strategic missiles (and you can’t save on them), "working" by land and "working" by surface / underwater targets (and here you can use the principle of modularity). Would this not allow to reduce the cost of production, increase output, while reducing the time?
    1. Hitrovan07
      Hitrovan07 29 November 2013 22: 29
      +1
      The criminality is that it was necessary to do this 20 years ago, and now there are no projects worked out by production except "Ash" and "Borey", everything else was built much earlier and it will be a decade or two to restore production again. Therefore, if there is a waste production, it is necessary to build a series and as much as possible, and there is never a lot of money wink
    2. Hitrovan07
      Hitrovan07 29 November 2013 22: 29
      0
      The criminality is that it was necessary to do this 20 years ago, and now there are no projects worked out by production except "Ash" and "Borey", everything else was built much earlier and it will be a decade or two to restore production again. Therefore, if there is a waste production, it is necessary to build a series and as much as possible, and there is never a lot of money wink
  • Peaceful military
    Peaceful military 29 November 2013 14: 14
    +1
    Unfortunately, this (and not only) was originally supposed, judging by the dominance of liberals and compradors in power and all around power structures. sad
  • skiff-xnumx
    skiff-xnumx 29 November 2013 14: 16
    +4
    He voiced his thought a year ago, voiced his voice yesterday, and now at the risk of getting a hat again. Really big series 855 we do not need. Maximum 6-10 buildings. Moreover, to build them according to the residual criterion. To replace the boats of early projects, it is necessary to design a lot of target boats with a displacement of 4-6 tons, one hull with the ability to build them not only on the Sevmash but also on the yard. Only in this state of affairs it is possible to quickly and relatively cheaply saturate the nuclear submarine fleet and not extend indefinitely the life of the boats to infinity.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 27
      0
      Quote: skiff-1980
      He voiced his thought a year ago, voiced his voice yesterday, and now at the risk of getting a hat again. Really big series 855 we do not need. Maximum 6-10 buildings. Moreover, to build them according to the residual criterion. To replace the boats of early projects, it is necessary to design a lot of target boats with a displacement of 4-6 tons, one hull with the ability to build them not only on the Sevmash but also on the yard. Only in this state of affairs it is possible to quickly and relatively cheaply saturate the nuclear submarine fleet and not extend indefinitely the life of the boats to infinity.


      100500
      need reincarnation of the project 671 approach
  • Samminosh
    Samminosh 29 November 2013 14: 27
    +2
    "SeeWolf"
    facepalm
    1. cdrt
      cdrt 29 November 2013 15: 29
      +2
      Quote: Samminosh
      "SeeWolf"
      facepalm


      And what is wrong? Watch the Wolf laughing laughing laughing
  • kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 29 November 2013 14: 42
    +5
    Yes, what is it waiting for and waiting for you. aircraft carriers are not needed, the nuclear submarine is unnecessary, apparently they didn’t seriously launch the destroyer, the Eagles can’t upgrade And what can we do? There is no word that soon the patient will burst, and these bitches will lead to sin.
  • volcano
    volcano 29 November 2013 14: 57
    0
    And here is Kursk?
    The Kursk is a multi-purpose submarine, and the submarine cruisers are the SSBN ..... BDRMs in the common people Humpbacked
    But in fact, simpler .... the submarine is a strategic nuclear submarine i.e. A submarine carrying ballistic missiles (ICBMs)
    all other submarines with a nuclear reactor are called nuclear submarines

    And if the author does not understand the difference then why the heck to write ...
  • Leonid Har
    Leonid Har 29 November 2013 15: 13
    +4
    If we want to be the first, and keep the Americans by the balls, we need such submarines. And a lot of boats.
  • tchoni
    tchoni 29 November 2013 15: 15
    0
    I thought mail comments and I will never hear anything except "Everything is lost, everything is fucked up, we are all going to die"

    But no recent notes remind you that there are still people on the site who are thinking. Which can organize a normal discussion.

    And about the boat - I don't know what to say. It is difficult to express my opinion because I have little idea of ​​the real state of affairs with the Yasen boats.

    The only thing I can say is that the main problem with boats of this type is target designation. For the range of use of weapons is much higher than the capabilities of the on-board reconnaissance and target detection system. If such questions do not arise with the "strategist" (they have fixed or sedentary goals)
    as well as with purely torpedo boats of the "Gepard" type, there is such a problem with boats armed with tactical cruise missiles. I wonder how it was solved on "Ash"?
    1. skiff-xnumx
      skiff-xnumx 29 November 2013 19: 14
      +1
      There are no boats like Cheetah; there are boats of project 971 pike-b K-335 cheetah the newest of them. So the boats of this project carry cruise missiles RK-55 grenades. So there is a problem with purpose indicating on these projects
  • indiggo
    indiggo 29 November 2013 15: 22
    +5
    complete nonsense. if they stop the 885 program, then the fleet will be a demon of multipurpose submarines, otherwise I can not explain the diversion. We don’t have another program, and as practice shows, it will take at least 7-10 years to develop at least the lead submarine of another project. it will be a complete failure ...
    1. clidon
      clidon 29 November 2013 20: 36
      0
      If the program is canceled, then by the 2020s these 4-6 Ash trees will be built, 971 will be modernized, plus they can complete another 971 (and not negotiate with the Indians), and in these 7 years they will make a simplified project and start introducing new submarines that have been talked about for a long time - something like the 971s, but with a reduced number of VPUs from "Ash", which seem to be built at once in a large series of 12-14 pieces, in order to replace the "Pike" by 2030.
  • sxn278619
    sxn278619 29 November 2013 15: 31
    +2
    Ground targets are motionless. And according to external target designations, I’ll mash at a distance of more than 300 km - a satellite or an airplane.
  • sxn278619
    sxn278619 29 November 2013 15: 31
    0
    Ground targets are motionless. And according to external target designations, I’ll mash at a distance of more than 300 km - a satellite or an airplane.
  • Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 29 November 2013 15: 49
    0
    Without UVP, the submarine will become cheaper, I am sure for MAPL it seems a bit much to me. The caliber complex can also be launched through a 533 mm caliber TA, and the SLCM (which is more effective than onyx) also has SLCM.
    1. Tektor
      Tektor 29 November 2013 17: 35
      +2
      For the next few years nothing more effective than Onyx will appear! Onyx is a multi-purpose (not only anti-ship missile) supersonic missile of long range.
  • NKVD
    NKVD 29 November 2013 15: 54
    +2
    You need to steal less and thieves to plant, I mean all the semblance of Serdyukov Vasiliev. Then there will be enough money. Putin covering thieves exposes Russia
  • silver_roman
    silver_roman 29 November 2013 16: 10
    +7
    as for me, these conclusions are extremely incorrect. To go this way, spend so much money and all to nothing?
    It is as if to take and abandon the PAK FA now for the sake of some 100500 generation drone.
    Nuclear submarine "Severodvinsk" lead boat. It goes without saying that it takes time and money to bring it to a full-fledged combat model, which cannot be compared with the price of serial samples of analogues.
    You can not refuse a boat, because it is more expensive than expected. A series of 6 nuclear submarines - let it be. But to put such a powerful project in the long box is a crime.
    In general, upset on Friday angry
  • The comment was deleted.
  • mvg
    mvg 29 November 2013 16: 18
    +4
    can you imagine how many ash trees could be made with the money spent in Sochi 2014 ??? or Zenit stadium, or Hulkov with Witsel ... Each KHL or RFL player would give 10% of the salary and that's it.
  • saag
    saag 29 November 2013 16: 31
    0
    I wonder why there is such a variety of missile weapons nomenclature, in my opinion because of this fuss