Nuclear submarines Severodvinsk recognized as too expensive

193
Nuclear submarines Severodvinsk recognized as too expensive

Creating a large series of "Yasenei" is very difficult from an economic and engineering point of view and hardly necessary from a military point of view - categorical and, frankly, a little pleasant conclusion for creators of such submarines is contained in a report prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission and distributed at the All-Russian Forum "Shipbuilding and Shipping of Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency."

The forum is taking place in Moscow, and the head submarine Severodvinsk, mentioned in the Yasen report, completed a complex test program (spent more than 220 days at sea - these are full-fledged 3-4 combat services), is now presented to the state commission and is awaiting the decision of its fate. The previously named deadlines for the transfer of the ship to the Navy have passed, yet another - the end of this year.

Yes, the 855 "Ash" head submarine, which was created by the St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau Malachite and was laid down at Sevmash in 1993, is an unprecedentedly long story childbirth. And with the "Bulava", we note, it is in no way connected - there is a completely different weaponry. This submarine cruiser belongs to the new, fourth generation multi-purpose submarines. According to the stated capabilities and combat equipment, they are designed to replace with themselves two classes of existing submarines at once - underwater hunters (like "Cheetah") and submarine cruisers with cruise missiles (these included the dead "Kursk").

The complex architecture of this ship, given by the designer, was superimposed on the 90's timelessness and turned out to be incredibly difficult to implement when the financing of the military-industrial complex almost ceased and production cooperation disintegrated. Reprocessing work on this order became more active only at the beginning of a new century, and in June 2010 of the "Ash" was delayed after all. The year before, on the eve of the next day of the Navy, a second corps was laid on the stocks of the Sevmash. And they immediately gave their own name to the future ship, Kazan. At the same time, plans to build a large series of submarines of this type — ten or more — were officially announced.

However, on the eve of laying the second "Ash", and after voices were heard that the ships of this series are not only very difficult to build, but also excessively expensive. The exact cost of the officials from the USC and the Ministry of Defense did not disclose, but made it clear that the sum of the cost of one multipurpose boat exceeds the cost of creating a strategic missile carrier.

Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency. ”It coincided that the night before, Russian President Vladimir Putin held a special meeting in Sochi on the development of nuclear submarine forces. From there, the details are minimal. But from the report prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation and was distributed at the forum in Moscow, it follows that in the next decade and a half the Russian Navy should receive at least 16-18 multi-purpose nuclear submarines.

But! “It is hardly advisable to realize this goal at the expense of the 885“ Ash ”nuclear submarine, the authors of the report say, and suggest that the construction of such ships be limited to four, maximum to six hulls. And from the turn of the 2015-2016 years, in their opinion, it is necessary to build multi-purpose submarines under a new project - unified with the "Yasen" on the main systems, but with a simplified composition of weapons.

"The construction of a large series of Yaseni in the coming decades is very heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and hardly necessary from a military one," the report says. Experts substantiated their position by the fact that the Russian Navy now has 27 multi-purpose submarines of 949, 971, 945, 672 RTM projects, and during the 10-12 years most of these ships will go out of service due to the deterioration of the main systems.

In order to prevent a sharp reduction in the number of combat-ready nuclear submarines (and they are already not enough to solve urgent tasks in the North Atlantic and Pacific theaters of war removed from each other, experts say), the fleet should receive at least 16-18 multi-purpose over the next fifteen years submarines.

4,5 trillion rubles - this amount is planned to be spent on the Navy under the current State Armaments Program (GVV-2020)

Five or six missing units can be replenished by repairing, upgrading and, accordingly, extending the service life of the existing submarines, which retained their resource potential. At the Severodvinsk ship repair shipyard "Zvezdochka" the experience of such works is great, and they will certainly cope with the task set there.

But the construction of new ships in any case must be intensified. And - to optimize from the economic and military-strategic points of view. In the United States, something similar has already been done, replacing the expensive Sivulf submarine project with the Virginia project, the authors of the expert report say.

Dossier "RG"

Multipurpose "Ash": two in one

Submarine "Severodvinsk" carries a powerful set of weapons, including anti-ship operational-tactical complex P-800 "Onyx" with a rocket 3M-55 development Reutov NPO "Engineering" cruise missiles to destroy ground targets, anti-X-35 cruise missiles and strategic cruise missiles X-101. Thus, it combines the qualities of a high-speed and low-noise torpedo submarine (such as the "Cheetah") with the capabilities of a missile cruiser, such as, for example, the dead "Kursk". According to Western and Russian experts, the level of Severodvinsk hydroacoustic visibility is commensurate with the level of the American SeeWolf submarine. At the same time, the 885 project has a higher level of versatility than the American counterpart.

Another distinctive feature of the Yasen submarines is that the torpedo tubes are not located in the bow of the ship, but behind the central post compartment. This allowed to place in the bow of the antenna of the new hydroacoustic complex. In addition, the ship received the latest communications and navigation systems, equipped with an advanced nuclear power plant.

The displacement of the submarine - 9,5 thousand tons, length - 120, maximum depth of immersion - 600 meters. The total submerged speed is 31 knot / about 57 km / h /, the crew is 85 people.
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193 comments
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  1. Volodya Sibiryak
    +136
    29 November 2013 11: 23
    It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.
    1. +104
      29 November 2013 11: 31
      No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What kind of disgust in the end then !!!
      Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper! Boats are an effective, asymmetric weapon and we need them first of all!
      1. +114
        29 November 2013 11: 36
        Quote: Arberes
        Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper!


        It’s just that normal countries don’t need to spend so much on feeding Serdyukov with women.
        1. AVV
          +27
          29 November 2013 12: 41
          The damage brought by these figures of Russia and Moscow Region cannot be counted, Kolyma cries for them, but can’t wait !!!
          1. bif
            +5
            29 November 2013 22: 14
            Quote: AVV
            Kolyma cries for them

            As well as the confiscation of all that is valuable, including the lonely organs ... you look at Ash exactly gather.
          2. aleks2102
            +8
            30 November 2013 05: 45
            not Kolyma, but shooting ...
            1. +3
              1 December 2013 05: 18
              execution is too easy! chop hands in Red Square in public, and let them live near the church fence ... this is it!
        2. +22
          29 November 2013 13: 11
          The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???
          1. +12
            29 November 2013 13: 23
            Quote: karal
            One of the richest countries, but no money ???

            No matter how many, this does not mean that they should not be counted.
            And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost. Quite a working moment ...
            1. +10
              29 November 2013 15: 32
              No matter how many, this does not mean that you do not need to count them

              They steal so much money that they don’t have time to count! am
            2. +5
              29 November 2013 17: 50
              Quote: Russ69
              And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost.

              I do not believe that it will be more expensive than the American SeeWolf submarine at a price.
              1. +1
                1 December 2013 02: 12
                Quote: ramzes1776
                I do not believe that it will be more expensive than the American SeeWolf submarine at a price.

                Amers, as a rule, are always more expensive. There the appetites of the military-industrial complex are worse than ours. But they have more money ...
            3. +9
              30 November 2013 00: 10
              Quote: Russ69
              No matter how many, this does not mean that they should not be counted.
              And, with regards to the project ... Since it seems very expensive, let them work and think about reducing the cost. Quite a working moment ...

              With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
              And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.
              1. lucidlook
                +3
                30 November 2013 15: 35
                Quote: lelikas
                With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
                And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.

                Apparently, our leaders very literally understand the slogan "Oh, sport! You are the world!" ... too literally ... to the point of perverting the essence. There will be no sport where there is no peace (see Afghanistan). And the world has always been behind strong walls and reliable borders (see USSR).
              2. 0
                1 December 2013 02: 14
                Quote: lelikas
                With the money spent on the Olympics - 10 buildings could be built.
                And ahead is also football - he will pull on the aircraft carriers.

                To finance the army, this is the right thing. But do not forget about the rest ...
                1. 0
                  2 December 2013 00: 47
                  Quote: Russ69
                  To finance the army, this is the right thing. But do not forget about the rest ...

                  With a budget of 13 trillion rubles, 2 trillion for the army, the rest is not so little.
                  1. 0
                    2 December 2013 05: 59
                    In 2013, the government was forced to cut spending on education, utilities, culture, and sports. Therefore, the security forces, to whom they give more than 4,2 billion are eaten up, along with officials (almost 1 trillion) and servicing debts and other payments (500 billion), half of the expenditure. Pensioners (from which there is no way to go), another 4,1 trillion.
                    Is there much left?
                    Compare - 86 billion rubles are allocated for all the long-suffering housing and communal services (with all the problems).
          2. +9
            29 November 2013 17: 48
            Quote: karal
            The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???

            5 puts a column of sticks in the wheels! Is it time to make a small sweep of such comrades at all levels of power. Let them sit in the kitchen at home and write such reports to themselves !!!
            1. pawel1961
              +2
              29 November 2013 23: 42
              what 5 column we have a generation of traitors in the period of the 90s and 2000s
              1. +4
                30 November 2013 00: 52
                Quote: pawel1961
                what 5 column we have a generation of traitors in the period of the 90s and 2000s

                Just the bulk of this generation wants Russia to be strong. They understand who our main adversary is in this world and they see children in sovereign and strong Russia, unlike the generation of the 60s, former Komsomol workers who were in the 90s ready ass licked amers, almost the country didn’t just ask ... whether !!!
                1. +1
                  1 December 2013 16: 17
                  Quote: ramzes1776
                  the bulk of this generation
                  Are you talking about the generation of the 90s and 2000s? Yes, this generation is not interested in anything but money. In between "puff", "fuck" and "play Tanks". To be honest, I myself am from the generation of the 90s. Most of my peer friends know nothing about submarines, bombers, etc. Everyone is concerned about how to make more money, preferably quickly and without much difficulty. Some dream of going abroad, and many of them dream of going to that very main enemy. I will immediately make a reservation that I have a higher education in the field of information technology, respectively, most of my friends and acquaintances are IT people. How much an IT specialist earns in the USA and other developed countries and how much here, I think there is no need to explain. Hence such moods among people. Many people wanted to spit on all kinds of politics, patriotism, etc.
                  All of the above applies only to their own observations. Personally, I consider for myself
                  1. +1
                    1 December 2013 17: 29
                    Quote: Greenwood
                    Personally, I consider for myself
                    Damn, did not finish the thought.
                    I personally consider 2 options. Either work here, or go to Japan (I like the culture of this country). The choice has not yet been made, it will depend on how the situation in Russia develops further and how well I patched my Japanese. :)
          3. +4
            29 November 2013 19: 15
            Together with the author of the article in Ryge. Journalists like amno every PR. Another expert has been publicized. When did our experts decide what to pay at the state defense order ?! So let’s continue to be clever, as some here on the site.
        3. +4
          29 November 2013 20: 48
          "NORMAL" Countries feed their "Serdyukovs" with their mistresses!

          I think that Putin has the intelligence to separate the seeds from the chaff. If not for him, there would not have been these boats at all. I think he knows what he is doing!
        4. pawel1961
          0
          29 November 2013 23: 34
          And what are these normal countries?
      2. +42
        29 November 2013 11: 44
        I vote for Arberez. Serdyukov (at night they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny) only (attention!) Overlooked, showed negligence, and here the article is different, not providing for punishment. Allotted 56 million. This is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the real losses of the Army and the state. And YOU say: submarines, AUG ... AU, justice
        = Where is the money, Zin? =
        1. +12
          29 November 2013 12: 07
          your truth Hottabych ... hi
        2. +12
          29 November 2013 12: 22
          Quote: Very old
          Serdyukov (at last they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny)

          RAPID - say, rhymes have trampled on my crazy head!
          OH DO NOT TEST ME, otherwise I will compose something again? Already sick of this face!
          1. Astral
            +5
            29 November 2013 12: 42
            pig
        3. Jin
          +2
          29 November 2013 12: 31
          Quote: Very old
          Charted a total of 56 million
        4. Jin
          +15
          29 November 2013 12: 36
          Quote: Very old
          Charted a total of 56 million


          Hello everyone! Yes colleague "only" 56 lyamas... shit ... well, compared to the size of kickbacks and the extent of theft, really mere pennies ... what can I say. Now he proudly wears his well-deserved Taburetkin-Robe ... would strangle a reptile sad
          1. +1
            29 November 2013 13: 20
            Quote: Jin
            Hello! Yes, colleague, "only" 56 lyamas ... oow ... well, compared to the size of kickbacks and the scale of theft,


            According to the official representative of the Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, the charge against the former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov will be announced within ten days, possibly under a more serious article.
            http://www.dni.ru/news/2013/11/29/265014.html
            1. vlrosch
              +1
              29 November 2013 16: 46
              He is not a judge, as connected with Aypad’s relative (cousin S. Medvedeva), and Aypad doesn’t surrender her; she’ll deliver the whole country with cancer, and not surrender it.
          2. +3
            29 November 2013 20: 53
            Quote: Jin
            Now he proudly wears his well-deserved Taburetkin-Robe ... would strangle a reptile


            Do you want to be deprived of freedom because of Taburetkin? Is he worth it?
        5. lucidlook
          +8
          29 November 2013 15: 30
          Do you think they will condemn him as Khodorkovsky? Oh, something I doubt.

          Quote: Very old
          AU, justice

          "Shout louder, daddy, it's hard to hear." :(
        6. +4
          29 November 2013 16: 13
          Quote: Very old
          I vote for Arberez. Serdyukov (at night they gave him another nickname - Anatoly Khalatny) only (attention!) Overlooked, showed negligence, and here the article is different, not punishing

          That’s for sure, it seems Comrade Dzerzhinsky said:
          Each error has a first and last name ......
          1. +2
            30 November 2013 04: 49
            Comrade Kaganovich
      3. RSNV.
        +18
        29 November 2013 13: 33
        Quote: Arberes
        No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What the fuck is in the end then !!!

        There is just enough money, even in abundance. In the Reserve Fund and the National Welfare Fund is 5,6 trillion. rub. (2,8 trillion in each) and mostly withdrawn from the country (invested in US Treasury bonds), and another 2,2 trillion. rubles, as far as one can understand from the official data, are on the accounts at the Ministry of Finance as dead weight. So there is money, there is no nationally oriented elite thinking about its state.

        Quote: Arberes
        Like normal countries, the larger the series, the cheaper!

        Such super-boats could be serially built by the USSR, since, unlike the Russian Federation, it possessed a developed science, a powerful industry and an appropriate personnel potential. The current Russian Federation, ruled by "effective" managers from a party of crooks and thieves, is not capable of such things, but it has top managers of "state corporations" with revenues of $ 50 million a year and the most expensive Winter Olympics in human history, and most importantly "Putin's plan" according to which she successfully moves "forward", which once again proves this article.
        1. +3
          29 November 2013 15: 03
          Quote: rsnv
          In the Reserve Fund and the National Welfare Fund is 5,6 trillion. rub. (2,8 trillion in each) and mostly withdrawn from the country (invested in US Treasury bonds), and another 2,2 trillion. rubles, as far as you can understand from the official data, are on the accounts of the Ministry of Finance with dead weight


          1. Don't let the hands of the "corporation" (Russian military and defense-industrialists) access the national funds ... (no matter how much the local commentators would like to)

          2. About Severodvinsk - no wonder. Russian Sivulf will share the fate of the American. It is no accident that one-year projects receive a common fate.

          3. But an analogue of Virginia (type 671 at a new level) is needed, and in a "commercial" serial quantity - this is a fact, which is confirmed by the report

          4. Although ... if we consider that our military and designers are trying to cram armaments into each ship to the maximum (that is, the strategy is rather few super ships, not many medium ones), the series will be of the type of 10-12 units. In principle - you can take RN and multiply its numbers by 2 - we get 8-10 SSBNs, 10-12 PLA, 12 destroyers, as it will be so visible
      4. rolik
        +19
        29 November 2013 13: 55
        Quote: Arberes
        No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What the fuck is in the end then !!!

        This is not a whore, this is the work of our current government in all its glory and effectiveness. What stools could not do, the government will do. A subtle hint to the guarantor that it is time to ask Dima and his comrades to leave the hall. Not so long ago, I don’t remember who, asked me if we could do everything that was planned for the 20th year in the Seva. I answered back then that we can. But we can only if there is a desire and funding from those in power. And here it is their desire, with such desires never, to build nothing. I'd love to see the names of this expert council. He always said that Rogozin pi .... bol, one more confirmation of my words.
      5. +3
        29 November 2013 17: 39
        Quote: Arberes
        Boats are an effective, asymmetric weapon and we need them first of all!

        Yes, I would even say a powerful strike weapon, which negates the likelihood of a major nuclear or conventional war.
      6. +2
        29 November 2013 18: 49
        Dear, money is spent on geopolitics, but bases in Egypt, Nicaragua what to open?
        And come back to Camran? And to give loans to Ukraine, Egypt, Venezuela?
        This is just offhand.
        And Sochi? I consider not necessary expenses, and to athletes millions for medals?
        And what about the exorbitant spending on "cultural" projects?
        Culture presses so much money for which it does NOT work out at all.
      7. pawel1961
        0
        29 November 2013 23: 32
        I want to note that our people have recently become more asymmetrical in everything. and there seems to be a problem here.
      8. sashka
        0
        1 December 2013 02: 56
        Are you going to fight with someone?
    2. +13
      29 November 2013 11: 40
      We arrived, we talked about this more than 10 years ago .... and how much will it take to create a new cheap project ?!
      1. Dmitry Zurn
        +9
        29 November 2013 12: 26
        Good afternoon. By the way, the American "Virginia" in comparison with the "Seawulf" also turned out not for three kopecks. And with us, just let people fantasize about new projects, they will take 90% of the money, it’s known where (for approval), then every year they will answer us for ten years and write that at the end of the year boat X will be built and launched. Sincerely.
        1. +9
          29 November 2013 18: 00
          Quote: Dmitry Zurn
          . And with us, just let people fantasize about new projects, they will take the money 90%, it will be known where it will go (for approval)

          The brightest example of the office "Horns and Hooves" under the name "Rusnano" and "Skolkovo". So much dough is thrown in there, but at the exit there is zero. And from them "like water off a duck's back." Such an impression that it was created to make the loot just were transferred from the budget to bureaucratic accounts.
      2. +12
        29 November 2013 12: 28
        It seems to me that this report was written by liberals, respectively, and the result! Nuclear-powered vehicles are needed, if you have to eat, then you don’t feel sorry for the money!
        1. Fin
          +2
          29 November 2013 12: 56
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission

          Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people. both random and fairly well-known and competent.
          X ... they wrote some.
          1. rolik
            +10
            29 November 2013 14: 10
            Quote: Fin
            Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people.


            CHAIRMAN OF THE PRESIDIUM OF THE EXPERT COUNCIL
            Remizov M.V.
            BIOGRAPHY
            Remizov Mikhail Vitalievich
            President of the Institute of National Strategy
            Member of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.
            Chairman of the Bureau of the Expert Council
            Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation.

            Member of the Public Council under the Government of the Russian Federation.

            Born in 1978

            PhD in Philosophy

            In 2000 he graduated from the Faculty of Philosophy of Moscow State University. M.V. Lomonosova

            In 2001-2003 - Editor of the policy department of the Russian Journal

            In 2004-2005 - Chief Editor of the Political News Agency (APN)

            From 2005 to present - President, Institute of National Strategy

            In 2010-2011 - Director of the Civil Initiatives Support Fund
            "Strategy 2020"

            Well-known political scientist and publicist. Research and scientific interests: history of political ideologies, ethnopolitics, national security, theory of economic development, industrial policy.

            The author of the monograph “The Experience of Conservative Criticism” and more than 200 scientific and journalistic articles. Permanent author of the publications Expert, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Gazeta.ru, Russky Zhurnal, Logos, etc. Scientific editor and co-author of more than 40 public analytical reports on domestic and international politics.
            Or maybe entot (e) an effective manager led this orchestra ?????
            1. shpuntik
              +7
              29 November 2013 16: 14
              rolik (4) SU Today, 14:10 PM ↑ New
              Quote: Fin
              Chairman grandfather Gareev and more than 60 people.

              CHAIRMAN OF THE PRESIDIUM OF THE EXPERT COUNCIL
              Remizov M.V.
              BIOGRAPHY

              Well, Judah was spotlighted, +. Grandfather Gareev, who else? Google doesn’t even take it.
              1. Fin
                +1
                29 November 2013 17: 37
                Quote: shpuntik
                Grandfather Gareev, who else? Google doesn’t even take it.

                Gareev Mahmut Akhmetovich President of the Academy of Military Sciences
                Chairman of the Expert Council of the Military-Industrial
                Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Born on July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk. http://sovetvpk.ru/
                1. rolik
                  +4
                  29 November 2013 19: 52
                  Quote: Fin
                  Gareev Makhmut Akhmetovich

                  What was famous for Makhmut Akhmetovich at the present stage of the history of the Russian state? By age, it is clear that he fought. For this huge thank you and bow to the earth. But now we don’t need to put our military-industrial complex on the brakes, only from the pit, more like w ... pu, they started to crawl out.
                  1. Fin
                    +3
                    29 November 2013 20: 44
                    Quote: rolik
                    What was famous for Makhmut Akhmetovich at the present stage of the history of the Russian state?

                    RollerDo you think that I consider him an expert? I wrote that granddad then the furniture that they slip in will sign. I saw the Chairman of the Presidium, read the whole composition.
                    You better write to us about the successes, plans of the NSR, we will be happy.
                    1. rolik
                      +8
                      30 November 2013 00: 08
                      Quote: Fin
                      to, do you think that I consider him an expert?

                      I did not think of it. He asked, as I usually do, out of curiosity. I’m actually wondering what this comrade is doing at his post. If he cuts down the roots of the state, he will be honored with retirement. If it brings benefits - to the board of honor, and as an example to give all the leaders.
                      And we have such news; “Alexander Nevsky” returned on the 27th, it was a control exit. Now we will prepare for transfer to the fleet. The decision is when an acceptance certificate will be signed and a flag hoist made for our esteemed MO.
                      Budnichenko went to the GDP for a meeting in Sochi. GDP said, however, about 8 strategists. So, God forbid, they will not cut the number by number.
                      And finally, the photo of Vikramaditya before going to India. Bringing from the wall to the water, by the forces of our tugs and tugs Zvezdochki. Seven feet)))))
                      1. Onyx
                        +1
                        30 November 2013 22: 43
                        Quote: rolik
                        Budnichenko went to the GDP for a meeting in Sochi. GDP said, however, about 8 strategists. So, God forbid, they will not cut the number by number.

                        Recently, Chirkov said that the construction of Boreev is also expected after 2020.
                      2. rolik
                        +1
                        1 December 2013 02: 00
                        Quote: Onyx
                        Recently, Chirkov said that the construction of Boreev is also expected after 2020.

                        Infa, yet, no. Let's hope that for now)))) Although, we have already begun, like, to draw a new generation, Maybe by the 20th they will be cast))))
                      3. Onyx
                        +2
                        1 December 2013 02: 14
                        Quote: rolik
                        Infa, yet, no. Let's hope that for now)))) Although, we have already begun, like, to draw a new generation, Maybe by the 20th they will be cast))))

                        Expect a long-term shipbuilding program. It seems that in early 2014 they should submit to the supreme
                      4. Fin
                        +2
                        1 December 2013 00: 43
                        Quote: rolik
                        Bringing from the wall to the water, by the forces of our tugs and tugs Zvezdochki. Seven feet

                        Thank. And we will meet and spend it here.
                      5. rolik
                        0
                        1 December 2013 02: 00
                        Quote: Fin
                        Thank. And we will meet and spend it here.

                        Murmansk ???))))
                      6. typhoon7
                        +1
                        1 December 2013 19: 09
                        Beautiful ship, even sorry to part. Seven feet under the keel!
                2. +2
                  29 November 2013 20: 56
                  Quote: Fin
                  Chairman of the Expert Council of the Military-Industrial
                  Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Born on July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk.


                  he is already 90 years old. what did you expect from the 90th old man?
                  1. Fin
                    +4
                    29 November 2013 22: 01
                    Quote: lonely
                    he is already 90 years old. what did you expect from the 90th old man?

                    Absolutely nothing, except that he was already resting, and not working as a wedding general. Everything will be done behind his back, and they will be covered. No offense.
                3. shpuntik
                  +1
                  30 November 2013 07: 08
                  Fin RU Yesterday, 17:37 ↑
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  Grandfather Gareev July 23, 1923 in Chelyabinsk. http://sovetvpk.ru/

                  hi good
            2. +3
              29 November 2013 20: 11
              Thank. From the military expert from the faculty neighing. I understand that he did not even serve ?!
              1. +1
                30 November 2013 12: 44
                It’s also alerted. It’s like I’m a Ph.D. . And there and there they are. and when will quantity turn into quality? That is a question of philosophy.
            3. vkrav
              +3
              30 November 2013 20: 32
              And his name is definitely not Shmulinson? And then the face, track record and mode of action are openly scorching him ...
        2. +4
          29 November 2013 13: 26
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          It seems to me that this report was written by liberals, respectively, and the result!

          No, the State Department ordered the Anglo-Saxons, and they published Wahhabis through the Islamists!
        3. 0
          29 November 2013 15: 08
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Nuclear-powered vehicles are needed, if you have to eat, then you don’t feel sorry for the money!


          And I feel sorry ... especially for the 8 prodigies.
          If you can actually build 16 cheaper boats - they need to be built. Quantity tends to overpower quality
          1. +2
            29 November 2013 21: 28
            Quote: cdrt
            If you can actually build 16 cheaper boats - they need to be built. Quantity tends to overpower quality

            It is necessary to study the classics.
          2. +2
            30 November 2013 18: 47
            Really cheaper will not work, at a price a maximum of 25 percent will be removed, but at the same time money for the development of a new project will be withdrawn immeasurably, in the end the same amount will come out.
            It’s not a question to remove launching rockets from them - the boat will become cheaper, but at the same time it will be necessary to build a series of parachutes with cruise missiles instead of loaves - and this is not a small day.
            Somewhat wrong amounts and quantities, it will probably work here - We are not so rich that we would buy cheap things.
            An example of "budgetary" modernization of the T-72 before our eyes.
            1. +1
              30 November 2013 19: 46
              So instead of "loaves" there may be a series of 6 "Ash trees", and a cut-down project will be ordered for them. Moreover, it is quite cheap to "knock" out of the spent 971st, and leave the missiles only in the TA, etc. It is clear that the basis of the submarine forces "Ash" due to cost cannot be. Some of them were already cut regularly, now they just said about it more or less openly.
              1. typhoon7
                0
                1 December 2013 19: 18
                I watched “News of the Week”, it seems that the GDP gave the task to carry out the program on Ashes by 2020, if I did not miss anything.
      3. +5
        29 November 2013 17: 55
        Quote: Civil
        We arrived, we talked about this more than 10 years ago .... and how much will it take to create a new cheap project ?!

        20 years have passed since the boat was laid and during this time nothing new was invented. am and now turnip is scratched expensively fool It turns out that all the existing projects are from the time of the USSR, but by no means a new Russia. And maybe there is already nobody to develop something new?
    3. Turik
      +14
      29 November 2013 12: 28
      Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer? Kalashami? Or tanks, which we have so few? I’m silent about aviation in general. We do not and are unlikely to have parity on conventional weapons.

      Stalin invested the last penny in the country's defense, part of the population even rightly says that he robbed the country. Only because of this, the Russians are alive, and not roasted alive according to the "Dropshot" plan or other 5 foreign "projects".

      Now what are the rulers of my country hoping for - what will they be able to bring down before the day of the big pi @ #% ec? If yes, then in vain - no one needs such embezzlers and mediocrity in the west, they have plenty of their own.
      1. RSNV.
        +8
        29 November 2013 13: 45
        Quote: Turik
        Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer?

        It’s unlikely that they will bomb, it’s very expensive, and it’s dangerous. They will stop supplying food, medicine and medical equipment, they will disconnect civilian communication systems, they will destroy the financial system, the fifth column and separatism will start to finance shock, so there are enough ways without bombs.
        1. +2
          29 November 2013 17: 21
          Quote: rsnv
          Stop supplying food, medicine and medical equipment, disconnect civil communication systems

          And this is a very long time for us to roam. Yes, and the capitalist will be strangled by 10% of the profit. They cannot do anything with North Korea, but you say .....
      2. -3
        29 November 2013 15: 11
        Quote: Turik
        And if they bomb us, what will we answer?


        Who are you, my dear, is going to bomb?
        And most importantly - how will you respond to bombing with the help of strike submarines?
        I would understand the indignation if they were going to cut the mace of the Mace - those are just so that no one would think to bomb
        1. 0
          29 November 2013 17: 27
          Quote: cdrt
          And most importantly - how will you respond to bombing with the help of strike submarines?

          But what is forbidden to shoot at NATO ships? Yes, and land can be hit on the basis of declared weapons
          In general, it would be necessary to build 100 pieces of ammunition with ammunition; only a massive salvo can penetrate the defense
      3. +2
        29 November 2013 20: 57
        Quote: Turik
        Are you damn it, ofigeli? And if they bomb us, what will we answer? Kalashami? Or tanks, which we have so few? I’m silent about aviation in general. We do not and are unlikely to have parity on conventional weapons.


        It seems that during the collapse of the USSR no one bombed us.
    4. +3
      29 November 2013 12: 59
      Yes, wait so yell, you are not a Jew, you will not be circumcised ...
      "Building major series "Ash" in the coming decades is too heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and is hardly necessary from a military "

      - no one refuses to build!
      ... in the next decade and a half, the Russian Navy should receive at least 16-18 multipurpose nuclear submarines. But to realize this goal at the expense of the nuclear submarine project 885 "Ash" is hardly advisable ...

      - why? maybe simply because "the lead nuclear submarine of project 855 Yasen, which was laid down at Sevmash back in 1993, has an unprecedentedly long history of childbirth ..."? And much of what is in it has already begun to become outdated? - or are there more modern designs that you can't stick into the old building without "perestroika"? Who knew the details?
      multipurpose nuclear submarines should be built according to a new project - unified with Yasen in basic systems

      So what? Where is the betrayal? Sober and pragmatic calculation!
      I wonder if it’s not those who are now shouting "Come on right away and more!" quite recently they were crying "... one of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR fleet is the construction of all types of ships not large - in HUGE series, as a result, there was simply not enough funding for the super-newest samples ..."
      1. rolik
        +8
        29 November 2013 14: 17
        Quote: Sacmagon
        maybe simply because "the lead nuclear submarine of project 855 Yasen, which was laid down at Sevmash back in 1993, has an unprecedentedly long history of childbirth ..."? And much of what is in it has already begun to become outdated? - or are there more modern designs that you can't stick into the old building without "perestroika"? Who knew the details?

        Everything is normally stuck in and stuck out)))))) A large series, this is just the series that should be built by the 20th year.
        While they will give the finished project another 10-15 years will pass, in the current situation. And where is the guarantee that the new project will be better than the previous when it cut off all the primary sexual characteristics of a real male.
      2. -4
        29 November 2013 15: 14
        Quote: Sacmagon
        one of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR fleet is the construction of all types of vessels not large - in HUGE series


        And where were the huge series in the USSR fleet?
        Rather, their absence and the presence of a million and a half similar projects.
        And about super-modern projects - a large number of good reliable weapons are victorious, and not a small amount of super-modern / super-efficient.
    5. +4
      29 November 2013 14: 07
      -Volodya Sibiryak: it is necessary to eradicate embezzlement
      There is no sufficient control over pricing, an UNTRASPURABLE financing system - the price of the Severodvinsk nuclear submarine (I am sure) is unreasonably high.
      -Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission ...
      Organizations and conferences: Whenever possible, entrust all matters to the committees “for further study and consideration”. Try to make the committees as large and as bureaucratic as possible - at least five people. Hold conferences when there is more urgent work.
      SPECIAL item in the CIA Sabotage Manual.
      -It is comparable to the American submarine Sea Wolf, but more versatile than its American counterpart.
      She may be the best nuclear submarine of a similar class in the world. In a one-on-one duel, Severodvinsk will not give a chance to win either Sea Wolf or Virginia.
      PS The submarine forces of the Russian Navy today comprise about 30 multipurpose nuclear submarines. All of them belong to the third generation. For comparison, in the USA, fourth-generation submarines have been added to fifty of the third generation submarines in recent years: three of the Sea Wolf type and five of the Virginia type. By 2024, the US Defense Department plans to bring the number of Virginia-class nuclear submarines to 30 units. In the Russian Federation only in the long-term plans no more than six Ashes are planned (and when, at such a pace?). In addition to NATO, China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Thailand show increased activity in the north of the globe, which negatively affects the state of economic interests of the Russian Federation.
      WHO is sitting in the commission ???
      1. 0
        29 November 2013 15: 16
        Quote: knn54
        In addition to NATO, China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Thailand show increased activity in the north of the globe.


        About the activity of the fleets of Malaysia and Thailand delivered laughing
    6. 0
      29 November 2013 16: 05
      and who is the author of the article?
    7. pawel1961
      +3
      29 November 2013 23: 27
      A.P.L. essentially cannot be cheap.
    8. +1
      30 November 2013 02: 08
      Quote: Volodya Sibiryak
      It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.


      Somewhere in Langley the boys are now sitting and taking to the chest, to the pelts and to the hips - such an armament program was cheated and so easy, just bought a commission, cheap and cheerful, and there was still money left for the girls.
    9. The comment was deleted.
    10. +1
      30 November 2013 12: 07
      everything is much simpler
      you just need to see where this idea came from
      the article clearly says: "Expert Council under the Government of the Russian Federation",
      I don’t know about you, but my questions to the Navy disappear immediately, but one request appears
      WRITE THE SURNAMES OF THESE "EXPERTS" !!!! and also where all these "experts" have studied.
      no, the addresses of the "experts" are not needed ...... not yet.
    11. +5
      30 November 2013 12: 57
      Quote: Volodya Sibiryak
      It is necessary to eradicate the embezzlement of money, and then money will be enough for boats.


      It's not about embezzlement and lack of money. In the same states, trillions are stolen and then blamed on fighting. The fact is that Ash is a very complex project. The same Sea Wolfe Laid down in 1989 was handed over to the American Navy only in 1997. The British have been building and putting into service the Astute for nine years. The lead ship of the Yasen project was laid down back in 1993, and the second ship of the Kazan nuclear submarine (this is Yasen-M) was laid down only in 2009, in July of this year, Novosibimrsk was laid down when money went under the state armaments program. In fact, the project was frozen and resumed only since 2009.
      So now, at the top there is a struggle between two ideas or directions for the further development of programs for multipurpose nuclear submarines. The authors of this report want
      follow the American path - replacing the expensive Seawulf project with the Virginia project, that is limit the construction of boats of the project 885 to 4 - 6 hulls and build nuclear submarines of a new project, "unified with Yasenem in the main systems, but carrying simplified composition of weapons.This idea is pushed by the representative of the external American administration lobbyist Remizov. Their opponents are opposed to implementing the current program to create a unified multi-purpose nuclear submarine with powerful diverse weapons despite technical difficulties and high cost. unification and serial production of the same type of boat. The American path for two projects, each of which is simpler and cheaper IMHO, will nevertheless lead to the dispersal of funds and winning in the number and diversity of boats, we will lose in their ultimate combat power. the question is not really the money, but the understanding of the question - what is the best way to have a fleet, several highly specialized boats or one universal
      Now we are waiting for an article in defense of Ashen.
  2. +20
    29 November 2013 11: 26
    Naturally, a modern submarine is an expensive thing, but the country needs them.
    1. rolik
      +5
      29 November 2013 16: 42
      Quote: Andrey Yurievich
      Naturally, a modern submarine is an expensive thing, but the country needs them

      Not more expensive than a peaceful sleep of loved ones.
  3. +18
    29 November 2013 11: 28
    Modern, advanced weapons cannot be cheap. Yes, it’s hard, but Russia needs a strong fleet, this is a long-term investment, not only in the Fleet, but also in the security of Russia.
  4. +6
    29 November 2013 11: 28
    The main thing is to ensure the security of the country, everything should be within reason, and there should be modernization and necessarily new nuclear submarine projects.
  5. wolland
    +3
    29 November 2013 11: 29
    In the USSR, everything that stood out, before the ruble went to CONSTRUCTION, Different times, different people ..... it becomes sad from this ....
  6. avt
    +10
    29 November 2013 11: 29
    Or maybe a good universal project turned out? So you decided to slow it down? Or did they decide to design something more interesting based on the results of work at Sarov? Then it would be understandable and logical, rather than simple savings.
    1. shpuntik
      +5
      29 November 2013 16: 20
      avt (3) SU Today, 11:29 AM New
      Or did you get a good universal project? So you decided to slow it down?

      Most likely it is. For twenty years to build what they wanted, these red-headed Gaidarites? After all, people need to pay wages, and on a monthly basis, without delay. 20 * 12 = 240 months * 1000 $ * 1 person = 240 thousand dollars / per 1 person. And how many people participated in the construction, including subcontractors and rocket launchers? On average, two thousand. There are already half a billion bucks. Without the cost of material. Plus, she’s the head one. Somewhere 1,3-1,5 lard cost.
      It is possible that the "partners" were asked not to strain the situation at sea.
      As for Sarov, it is unlikely, or they slow down, or then through Skolkovo the technology will merge. They have no interest in a strong Russia in everything.
  7. +14
    29 November 2013 11: 30
    That's why I was in no hurry to shout "Hurray!" in the next branch. A beautiful picture of Putin reviving the army on Channel One is one thing, but the undercover struggle for saws is quite another. So, you look, and it turns out that in the end we will have one boat - a unique, inimitable, and unparalleled in the world. Unparalleled, because one ... sad
    1. +5
      29 November 2013 11: 41
      Quote: Stiletto
      That's why I was in no hurry to shout "Hurray!" in the next branch. A beautiful picture of Putin reviving the army on Channel One is one thing, but the undercover struggle for saws is quite another.

      put "reviving" in quotation marks - and it will be the same ...
    2. 10kAzAk01
      +2
      29 November 2013 11: 47
      So, you look, and it turns out that in the end we will have one boat - unique, inimitable, and unparalleled in the world. Unparalleled, because one ..

      In Soviet times, such projects were unique (1 copy each) of the mountain, ... it didn’t go any further ...
  8. +7
    29 November 2013 11: 31
    It took too long to build from here and the price. The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.
    1. +4
      29 November 2013 11: 39
      Quote: Kibalchish
      The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.

      and it will turn out to be the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ...
      1. +1
        29 November 2013 11: 41
        Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.
        1. +6
          29 November 2013 11: 47
          Quote: Kibalchish
          Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.

          in our country, all such decisions are made solely by goats devouring cabbage in the state garden ... winked
        2. -2
          29 November 2013 15: 18
          Quote: Kibalchish
          Unfortunately, the decisions on what and how to build are not made by you and me.


          Judging by the many comments here - not unfortunately laughing
          If they really create a project cheaper, then 16 submarines are cheaper than 8 expensive ones
      2. +6
        29 November 2013 12: 26
        Quote: military
        and you get the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ..


        And how! The Mistral is called. bully
        1. 0
          29 November 2013 14: 51
          Quote: Stiletto
          And how! The Mistral is called.

          Well, what do you object? ...
          pi-pi-pi-pi-pi-pi-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-... -... am
      3. +2
        29 November 2013 12: 57
        Quote: military

        and it will turn out to be the "boat of Peter I" ... is it in demand today by the fleet? ...

        I don’t think it’s worth touching the boat of Peter I. All the same, it’s history, a symbol, and if it hadn’t - would there be a Russian fleet now and in past history? So it is demanded by the memory of generations and respect for the heritage .. Follow the words.
        1. +2
          29 November 2013 14: 49
          Quote: Manul
          I don’t think it’s worth touching the boat of Peter I. All the same, it’s history, a symbol, and if it hadn’t - would there be a Russian fleet now and in past history? So it is demanded by the memory of generations and respect for the heritage .. Follow the words.

          follow the context and learn to understand what is at stake ...
          I do not want the Russian fleet to be at the level of a "boat" and through the efforts of our "statesmen" it itself became just a symbol of its former power and the memory of generations ...
    2. +6
      29 November 2013 12: 27
      Quote: Kibalchish
      The next "Kazan" will be built according to a simplified scheme (fewer high-tech bells and whistles) + complete rejection of components from the CIS. There will be only Russian details.


      This is likely to happen. It’s just that they wrote an article to sway calm and create excitement in the networks.
  9. +11
    29 November 2013 11: 35
    Sabotage, otherwise you cannot call it. Enough money for summer cottages on Rublevka, but not for submarines? Even with the huge defense budget ?! negative

    And even if you abandon 885 - how to replace them? Do we have another promising multi-purpose submarine project?

    Five or six missing units can be replenished by repair, modernization and, accordingly, extending the life of existing submarines, which have retained their resource potential for this.

    This is what killed me the most: of course, the shortage of new submarines can be filled by modernizing old ones ... You can also refuse to buy new cars for our elite - to put them on "Seagulls" and that's it.
    You might think that we have so many nuclear submarines that have "preserved their resource potential" that there is nowhere to go straight to ...
    1. +9
      29 November 2013 11: 57
      Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!
      And to separate them from fat salaries !!!
      Why do they have salaries of hundreds of thousands, for the fact that we can’t produce anything meaningful ?!
      1. +14
        29 November 2013 12: 01
        Quote: Starover_Z
        Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!

        transplant freaks to the "classics" ... to the "used" ones ...
        1. coserg 2012
          0
          29 November 2013 20: 16
          And remove the drivers, let them rule!
      2. 10kAzAk01
        +6
        29 November 2013 12: 13
        And to separate them from fat salaries !!!

        In general, I propose that deputies pay an average salary over the entire budget (teachers, doctors, etc., plus the average pension ..) and therefore about holding a referendum in the country ... What is their salary ??? Hourly ???
      3. 0
        29 November 2013 21: 00
        Quote: Starover_Z
        Sell ​​the deputy's Mercy and so on and give them new Lada-Kalina!


        rather, deputies will rename their Mercia to fret-viburnum! and increase their salaries by 100% for moral damage.
  10. +3
    29 November 2013 11: 36
    which was prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation

    Curious to know what kind of experts are on the council? Again, any representatives of "civil society"?
    1. +5
      29 November 2013 14: 40
      In fact, "noble rage boils up": so much time and money was wasted on fine-tuning the super boat and now it is proposed to start over - to spend new time and money on a new one ??? Akuet. Time is the only non-renewable resource. What do they think there? The project needs to be implemented - these are boats of the far sea zone and there are about 12 of them. Near-field boats are much easier and cheaper to make, but they will not replace Ash. A kind of analogy with the T-80 and T-72: a super tank, but expensive and half-tank, but cheap, i.e. tankers need the T-80, and the budget (and export) needs the T-72. With tanks, not everything is clear, because their number matters. But with boats - not quite so.
  11. +5
    29 November 2013 11: 37
    Calmness and confidence have a much higher price! New submarines - a guarantee for thirty years, do not save!
    1. +11
      29 November 2013 11: 41
      quote-The creation of a large series of "Ash" is too heavy from an economic and engineering point of view and is hardly necessary from a military - a categorical and, frankly, not very pleasant for the creators of such submarines, is contained in the report, which was prepared by the Expert Council of the Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission under government of the Russian Federation and distributed at the All-Russian Forum "Shipbuilding and Navigation in Russia: New Solutions and Economic Efficiency".

      Saving on the country's defense and national security is extremely dangerous and criminal.

      No comment.
      1. +4
        29 November 2013 12: 22
        If the commission was under the patronage of Medvedev, then there was nothing to wait for, he would only have to sell something - an effective manager.
      2. Wild_grey_wolf
        +2
        29 November 2013 14: 09
        WHAT BEAUTY AND POWER. . .
        1. -2
          29 November 2013 22: 36
          Perhaps, with some modernization, the 885 project will result in a missile defense submarine, which will be able to shoot down their BRs on take-off near the borders of the adversary and Ohio patrol areas. Ashenes have the opportunity to achieve the milestone of the use of anti-missiles, only these anti-missiles themselves are needed, suitable for the dimensions of the launcher and radar or target designation.
  12. +11
    29 November 2013 11: 42
    Hmm ....
    The project is 90 years old, and still complicated and too expensive ... Hey.
    Apparently less to steal and spend trillions on different image-building projects is not a variant.
    This boat is needed and preferably not in a stripped-down version. In the surface fleet, we are far from in the first place, that we also want the submarine fleet to slow down on the brakes ... to lower it.
    Who will Borey accompany or hunt for apl and ships of the enemy, apparently it will be Serdik.
  13. +18
    29 November 2013 11: 42
    Well it’s clear ..... fire into space is not expensive, but is a strategic boat expensive?
  14. +6
    29 November 2013 11: 48
    Interestingly, are experts or iksperds in this council? If the latter, it’s strange that they didn’t offer to simply split the money instead of the boats.
    1. +5
      29 November 2013 12: 04
      Quote: umah
      Interestingly, are experts or iksperds in this council?

      in such tips - each creature has a pair ... basically, it's just "... fart" ...
  15. +10
    29 November 2013 11: 49
    Quote: twister
    Well it’s clear ..... fire into space is not expensive, but is a strategic boat expensive?


    Well, after all, to the Olympiad "our beloved partners", read - p .. they will come, they like beautiful multi-colored lights more than the formidable Russian weapon ...
    1. +6
      29 November 2013 12: 08
      Quote: Stiletto
      Well, after all, to the Olympiad "our beloved partners", read - p .. they will come, they like beautiful multi-colored lights more than the formidable Russian weapon ...

      worst of all is that our home-grown "p..s" quite share the opinion of their foreign partners ...
  16. avg
    +11
    29 November 2013 12: 03
    I love football, a sinful thing. But, without hesitation, I would give the 2018 championship for a few Ash trees. You see, along the way I would have saved many leaders from negligence. wink
  17. +10
    29 November 2013 12: 08
    In fact, the statement is landmark, nothing is shy, engineering projects are not pulling, the degradation of industry and personnel)))
    And most importantly, where the Statements, the presidential council, again Vova will be forced to sign, as with the entry into the WTO)))) "twisting his hands", as Deputy Fedor says)) to the notary-president ...

    But this is the most optimal counterweight to the AUG of the US Navy ...And the Yankees really s-sykatno when in the Gulf of Mexico pop up "Carcasses" of the Soviet development with the names put out the light))))

    Or is it better to transfer money according to the "Budgetary Rule" approved by Putin directly to the US Budget and contain an "exchanger" - which is actually the Central Bank of Russia ....
    Let the Russians take the money (stolen)) as in Cyprus, on the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man, Virgin and other offshore ...

    There will be no submarine, VISA & MASTERCARD payment systems will be blocked. Putin has not created a NATIONAL PAYMENT SYSTEM ("" "" patriot "" "")))

    (well, for sure))

    Forced to state ..... K A R A L ... ALL P R S R A L I)))))))))))))))
    1. lucidlook
      +3
      29 November 2013 15: 48
      Quote: Asgard
      again Vova will be forced to sign, as with the entry into the WTO)))) "twisting his arms," ​​as Deputy Fedor says)

      It reminds me of something. Like, he didn’t know what he was signing. This is not his fault. Yes of course...

      For the WTO, Putin himself personally campaigned live. "Rather a plus." FORGOT? So I can remind you! We are watching from around 5:50.

  18. +14
    29 November 2013 12: 10
    Of course, there is 1 trillion at the Olympics, but there is no defense of the homeland
    1. +6
      29 November 2013 14: 16
      Quote: leha1128
      Of course, there is 1 trillion at the Olympics, but there is no defense of the homeland

      Olympiad - a satisfying trough ... there is where to squeeze and where to roll back ...
      and from a submarine ... only an anchor ... in the ass ...
      our "fixers" are not interested in this alignment ...
  19. +9
    29 November 2013 12: 21
    in the coming decades it will be extremely economically and engineeringly
    That is, everyone has something to say about "it takes a lot of money", but about the engineering "heavy load" everything is like a mouthful of water. Where are the "specialists" calling to build only at our shipyards and only according to our projects? Something is invisible and crowds of managers are going to retrain to become an engineer in order to help the country build the best boats in the world, albeit losing money and working hard. And for some reason no one is eager to become skilled workers. Maybe this is the result?
    1. +2
      29 November 2013 13: 19
      Quote: chunga-changa
      That is, everyone has something to say about "it takes a lot of money", but about the engineering "heavy load" everything is like a mouthful of water. Where are the "specialists" calling to build only at our shipyards and only according to our projects? Something is invisible and crowds of managers are going to retrain to become an engineer in order to help the country build the best boats in the world, albeit losing money and working hard. And for some reason no one is eager to become skilled workers. Maybe this is the result?

      So you think it’s the people's fault? And I hope you work as a teacher at school? Or a doctor in a clinic? Your contempt gives you a venerable troll. Do you really think that Stalin immediately got a bunch of specialists, engineers and workers? And they no matter what , we learned all this (apparently on the Internet or according to my grandmother) and went to work for the good of the country ???
      1. +1
        29 November 2013 21: 59
        Yes, exactly what I have been working for the good of the country, for the last couple of years I have been a foreman at a construction site, in a state office. We are building state-owned residential buildings, and there are some. It's not even funny about Stalin and the specialists, of course the USSR left the "new Russia" with devastation and one and a half engineers and those foreigners. As for the fault of the people, yes, the people are to blame. Engineers and workers are the people, and if, for example, you are not ready to sacrifice pleasant and money-rich office work for the sake of, say, work in the winter at a construction site, then you are also to blame for what is happening around. Well, except of course the crowds of menageries, the main product of the "new Russia". These are understandably not to blame for anything, their circumstances forced them to make such a difficult life choice. ONET lawyers.
  20. b-130
    +2
    29 November 2013 12: 33
    Shame! Since we can’t create a competitive economy (for now), then at least what is needed must be protected! Again liberalists stick stick ...
  21. b-130
    +2
    29 November 2013 12: 34
    Liberasts are coming !!!
  22. Alexander I
    +7
    29 November 2013 12: 40
    Guess which country in the world does not have its own national government?
    1. 0
      30 November 2013 10: 02
      Which one? Maybe the Vatican? lol
  23. +4
    29 November 2013 12: 42
    Announce the list of the "Expert Council". I will note that under the Government of the Russian Federation, that is, under Medvedev ... But in general, as a boat that actually replaces TWO classes, be inexpensive ?? !!
  24. +9
    29 November 2013 12: 42
    There are indeed quite a few technical and other problems with "Ash", so they do not dare to highlight one of the darkest sides of the medal, show more acceptable. This is the problem of our entire military-industrial complex, the point is not only in economy.
  25. +1
    29 November 2013 12: 47
    But maybe you don’t need to boil, citizens? The conclusions of the expert council are not yet a government decree. let's wait for the final decision. although the conclusions spoiled these moods.
  26. +10
    29 November 2013 13: 04
    What is the point of replacing Ash with something else? A modern nuclear submarine will be expensive anyway, and taking into account the development costs and all the cuts, it is unlikely to be cheaper! And what's the point of trimming its weapons? Which high-tech gadgets are going to be removed from Ash M? As far as I know, this is a modernized project, as the letter M. speaks of. This is almost the only weapon that can fight against the AUG, and in general, the boat is universal, it can strike from land and land, and heat ships and boats! How are they going to refuse it? I don’t see any prohibitive prices! The Navy is going to spend 4.5 trillion by 2020, if during this time to build a series of 8 nuclear submarines, it will cost 400-800 billion. Let's take an average of 600 billion. This is 13% from 4.5 trillion. Considering that it is the only ship of the 1st rank manufactured today, and is capable of performing a wide range of tasks, 13% is such a trifle! In my opinion, it is precisely on the construction of Ash-trees that we need to focus on.
    1. +4
      29 November 2013 14: 33
      Quote: patsantre
      At the Navy, they are planning to spend 4.5 trillion by 2020, if a series of 8 nuclear submarines is built during this time, it will cost 400-800 billion. Let's take an average of 600 billion, which is 13% of 4.5 trillion.

      this is in the "pink" optimistic scenario ... when there is this very 4,5 trillion ... today they are only on a piece of paper called GPV-2020 ... nothing, mind you, not a guaranteed piece of paper ... there will be denyuzhki - pinched off for the program, there will be no money - smoke bamboo ... and everything goes exactly to the point that no money is expected in the declared volumes ... and the pompous program, promoted for the elections, is quite capable of "giving oak" in a number of positions ...
      therefore, before sequestering it, it is quite reasonable to massage the skeleton of "economic overload" and redundancy ...
      it's only the beginning...
      1. +3
        29 November 2013 19: 17
        Quote: military
        this is in the "pink" optimistic scenario ... when there are those same 4,5 trillion ... today they are only on a piece of paper called GPV-2020 ... nothing, mind you, not a guaranteed piece of paper ...

        This, of course, is true. There will be less money, but this is not a reason to abandon the Ashen. It is a strategic program. It and the Boreas must be brought at all costs.
        I will not even talk about corruption and senseless spending, like the 2018 World Cup.
        Even if the question arises about intra-naval economy, it is possible to resell unnecessary Mistrals (if the agreement with the French allows this to be done), refuse to repair Kuznetsov, limit the construction of corvettes, etc., but you should not touch Ash.
  27. +6
    29 November 2013 13: 08
    Also, one should not forget that Ash is not only a nuclear submarine with high performance characteristics, but also a direct counterbalance to the American Virginia class nuclear submarines. In 10 years, when most of Los Angeles is decommissioned, it is Virginia that will become the main force of the US submarine fleet, and we need to have submarines that can contain them.
  28. Lnosow
    +7
    29 November 2013 13: 30
    Strongly expensive, because it greatly interferes with the Americans. And the LADIES with their liberals in the government and bends under them. Strongly they do not like "ASH".
  29. 0
    29 November 2013 13: 55
    I don’t understand why they put the article a plus, because the report is designed to prevent the construction of these ships, thereby putting Russia at risk of survival.
    1. +3
      29 November 2013 14: 01
      So go ahead and minus the reports! Why didn’t the article please you? The author ascertained the fact and reported the information, thanks to him in the form of pluses, and that the information is unpleasant, he is no longer to blame.
    2. +2
      29 November 2013 21: 02
      Quote: andrey777
      I don’t understand why they put the article a plus, because the report is designed to prevent the construction of these ships, thereby putting Russia at risk of survival.


      and what to do? Hang the author for writing the bitter truth in the article?
  30. Jin
    +3
    29 November 2013 14: 06
    Quote: Russ69
    Serdyukov will be announced within ten days, possibly under a more serious article.


    It is good to...
  31. 0
    29 November 2013 14: 08
    Again whining from a series about *** whether all polymers
    Why START building a series of boats that is inferior to EXISTING American counterparts (I'm talking about Virginia)? For what figs to build obsolete trash for rabid grandmothers? It is only in the "documentaries" of the first channel that Severodvinsk is not inferior or even superior. While Virginia is already in the series.
    Another important point is the future modernization of the 885 Ash. Remember that the boat began to be designed in 1977. The American series is 10-15 years fresh. Do you really think that since those years nothing new has been invented in the field of electronics, hydroacoustics and other things? Virginia has some pretty good upgrade options. Severodvinsk has almost none. At the moment, there are boat projects that are better and cheaper than the long-suffering Severodvinsk. The boat is good, but it was outdated during construction.
    1. +1
      29 November 2013 19: 21
      Quote: user1212
      For what figs to build obsolete trash for rabid grandmothers?

      The boat of the new project is going to be simplified even more. Ash is "too complicated".
      Quote: user1212
      At the moment there are boat projects that are better and cheaper

      "Announce the entire list, please"
      Particularly interested in cheaper ....
  32. +2
    29 November 2013 14: 09
    I am against the need to build their pieces 10-12 and everything will be fine, officials to reduce costs, let them go to the domestic auto industry for example, etc.
  33. +2
    29 November 2013 14: 11
    kind! What nonsense, what does it mean "ineffective". Smells ... no ... stinks! an outright disruption of industrial production!
  34. +3
    29 November 2013 14: 12
    I will write quite possibly an seditious thing, but nonetheless))
    There is some truth in the words about the unnecessaryness of such an expensive project, and how sad it is.
    Trying to embrace the immense, the designers and the customer want everything from one boat at once. And that on land worked, and at sea coped perfectly. It would not have happened, as in the proverb about two birds with one stone ((
    Maybe it’s worth:
    First, turn to the Pike project, complete existing ones, rework an existing project, like Varshavyanka?
    Secondly, get away from multifunctionality? Let there be three classes (and not two as planned): carriers of strategic missiles (and you can’t save on them), "working" by land and "working" by surface / underwater targets (and here you can use the principle of modularity). Would this not allow to reduce the cost of production, increase output, while reducing the time?
    1. +1
      29 November 2013 22: 29
      The criminality is that it was necessary to do this 20 years ago, and now there are no projects worked out by production except "Ash" and "Borey", everything else was built much earlier and it will be a decade or two to restore production again. Therefore, if there is a waste production, it is necessary to build a series and as much as possible, and there is never a lot of money wink
    2. 0
      29 November 2013 22: 29
      The criminality is that it was necessary to do this 20 years ago, and now there are no projects worked out by production except "Ash" and "Borey", everything else was built much earlier and it will be a decade or two to restore production again. Therefore, if there is a waste production, it is necessary to build a series and as much as possible, and there is never a lot of money wink
  35. Peaceful military
    +1
    29 November 2013 14: 14
    Unfortunately, this (and not only) was originally supposed, judging by the dominance of liberals and compradors in power and all around power structures. sad
  36. +4
    29 November 2013 14: 16
    He voiced his thought a year ago, voiced his voice yesterday, and now at the risk of getting a hat again. Really big series 855 we do not need. Maximum 6-10 buildings. Moreover, to build them according to the residual criterion. To replace the boats of early projects, it is necessary to design a lot of target boats with a displacement of 4-6 tons, one hull with the ability to build them not only on the Sevmash but also on the yard. Only in this state of affairs it is possible to quickly and relatively cheaply saturate the nuclear submarine fleet and not extend indefinitely the life of the boats to infinity.
    1. 0
      29 November 2013 15: 27
      Quote: skiff-1980
      He voiced his thought a year ago, voiced his voice yesterday, and now at the risk of getting a hat again. Really big series 855 we do not need. Maximum 6-10 buildings. Moreover, to build them according to the residual criterion. To replace the boats of early projects, it is necessary to design a lot of target boats with a displacement of 4-6 tons, one hull with the ability to build them not only on the Sevmash but also on the yard. Only in this state of affairs it is possible to quickly and relatively cheaply saturate the nuclear submarine fleet and not extend indefinitely the life of the boats to infinity.


      +100500
      need reincarnation of the project 671 approach
  37. Samminosh
    +2
    29 November 2013 14: 27
    "SeeWolf"
    facepalm
    1. +2
      29 November 2013 15: 29
      Quote: Samminosh
      "SeeWolf"
      facepalm


      And what is wrong? Watch the Wolf laughing laughing laughing
  38. +5
    29 November 2013 14: 42
    Yes, what is it waiting for and waiting for you. aircraft carriers are not needed, the nuclear submarine is unnecessary, apparently they didn’t seriously launch the destroyer, the Eagles can’t upgrade And what can we do? There is no word that soon the patient will burst, and these bitches will lead to sin.
  39. 0
    29 November 2013 14: 57
    And here is Kursk?
    The Kursk is a multi-purpose submarine, and the submarine cruisers are the SSBN ..... BDRMs in the common people Humpbacked
    But in fact, simpler .... the submarine is a strategic nuclear submarine i.e. A submarine carrying ballistic missiles (ICBMs)
    all other submarines with a nuclear reactor are called nuclear submarines

    And if the author does not understand the difference then why the heck to write ...
  40. +4
    29 November 2013 15: 13
    If we want to be the first, and keep the Americans by the balls, we need such submarines. And a lot of boats.
  41. 0
    29 November 2013 15: 15
    I thought mail comments and I will never hear anything except "Everything is lost, everything is fucked up, we are all going to die"

    But no recent notes remind you that there are still people on the site who are thinking. Which can organize a normal discussion.

    And about the boat - I don't know what to say. It is difficult to express my opinion because I have little idea of ​​the real state of affairs with the Yasen boats.

    The only thing I can say is that the main problem with boats of this type is target designation. For the range of use of weapons is much higher than the capabilities of the on-board reconnaissance and target detection system. If such questions do not arise with the "strategist" (they have fixed or sedentary goals)
    as well as with purely torpedo boats of the "Gepard" type, there is such a problem with boats armed with tactical cruise missiles. I wonder how it was solved on "Ash"?
    1. +1
      29 November 2013 19: 14
      There are no boats like Cheetah; there are boats of project 971 pike-b K-335 cheetah the newest of them. So the boats of this project carry cruise missiles RK-55 grenades. So there is a problem with purpose indicating on these projects
  42. +5
    29 November 2013 15: 22
    complete nonsense. if they stop the 885 program, then the fleet will be a demon of multipurpose submarines, otherwise I can not explain the diversion. We don’t have another program, and as practice shows, it will take at least 7-10 years to develop at least the lead submarine of another project. it will be a complete failure ...
    1. 0
      29 November 2013 20: 36
      If the program is canceled, then by the 2020s these 4-6 Ash trees will be built, 971 will be modernized, plus they can complete another 971 (and not negotiate with the Indians), and in these 7 years they will make a simplified project and start introducing new submarines that have been talked about for a long time - something like the 971s, but with a reduced number of VPUs from "Ash", which seem to be built at once in a large series of 12-14 pieces, in order to replace the "Pike" by 2030.
  43. sxn278619
    +2
    29 November 2013 15: 31
    Ground targets are motionless. And according to external target designations, I’ll mash at a distance of more than 300 km - a satellite or an airplane.
  44. sxn278619
    0
    29 November 2013 15: 31
    Ground targets are motionless. And according to external target designations, I’ll mash at a distance of more than 300 km - a satellite or an airplane.
  45. Mr. Truth
    0
    29 November 2013 15: 49
    Without UVP, the submarine will become cheaper, I am sure for MAPL it seems a bit much to me. The caliber complex can also be launched through a 533 mm caliber TA, and the SLCM (which is more effective than onyx) also has SLCM.
    1. +2
      29 November 2013 17: 35
      For the next few years nothing more effective than Onyx will appear! Onyx is a multi-purpose (not only anti-ship missile) supersonic missile of long range.
  46. +2
    29 November 2013 15: 54
    You need to steal less and thieves to plant, I mean all the semblance of Serdyukov Vasiliev. Then there will be enough money. Putin covering thieves exposes Russia
  47. +7
    29 November 2013 16: 10
    as for me, these conclusions are extremely incorrect. To go this way, spend so much money and all to nothing?
    It is as if to take and abandon the PAK FA now for the sake of some 100500 generation drone.
    Nuclear submarine "Severodvinsk" lead boat. It goes without saying that it takes time and money to bring it to a full-fledged combat model, which cannot be compared with the price of serial samples of analogues.
    You can not refuse a boat, because it is more expensive than expected. A series of 6 nuclear submarines - let it be. But to put such a powerful project in the long box is a crime.
    In general, upset on Friday angry
  48. The comment was deleted.
  49. mvg
    +4
    29 November 2013 16: 18
    can you imagine how many ash trees could be made with the money spent in Sochi 2014 ??? or Zenit stadium, or Hulkov with Witsel ... Each KHL or RFL player would give 10% of the salary and that's it.
  50. 0
    29 November 2013 16: 31
    I wonder why there is such a variety of missile weapons nomenclature, in my opinion because of this fuss
  51. shpuntik
    +4
    29 November 2013 16: 50
    Project 855 nuclear submarine "Ash",
    But! “It is hardly advisable to realize this goal at the expense of the Project 885 Yasen nuclear submarine,” the authors of the report say and propose limiting the construction of such ships to four, or maximum six, hulls.
    Any sensible economist will say that after the 6th building the cost of production is falling, and the speed of production is increasing. And these figures want to involve me in a new, duplicate project. And they say it will be cheaper!!!
    Another piece of evidence is not in favor of the tandem.
    I would like the author to be more careful with the project numbers and post photos with the names of the authors of the reports. So that people know their “heroes”. And so, in general, a good article, informative. Only sad news.
    1. +2
      29 November 2013 21: 16
      That’s why they want a new cut! And the authors of the report will not be forgotten. After all, in Serdyukovism, no one is forgotten and nothing is forgotten. Liberals, my friend, are in power, liberals. And they have rights whoever steals more from their native people and harms their beloved state, like the same Serdyuk with a harem.
  52. The comment was deleted.
  53. +2
    29 November 2013 17: 15
    It seems to me that when resolving this issue, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the construction of submarines in a series is not a process that takes place in a closed system.
    Taking into account the fact that this possible construction will entail an increase in production in other and related industries, and in many. This means that state revenues from increased tax payments should increase, and many times over. That is, in reality, budget expenditures will represent the difference between the funds allocated for the construction of boats and the economic effect obtained from the increase in budget revenues that will be received in connection with the construction of these boats.
    But you can and should save money in other ways. For example, I don’t like the bill that limits the maximum cost of a car for an official to 3 million rubles. Here it is really possible to advance our bureaucrats at least twice as much.
  54. +4
    29 November 2013 17: 20
    The Americans converted 4 Ohio missiles from strategic ones into carriers of cruise missiles. Maybe we can modify our new SSBNs in approximately the same way (taking into account not alterations, but construction from scratch), and rivet one boat in two modifications? The serial production will be unrealistic, the ammunition capacity will be even greater, we will be able to sow hundreds of them, secretly, without huge surface armadas, anywhere in the world, no worse than the Amerikoks. A good argument for any “blocs” and “superpowers”...
  55. +1
    29 November 2013 17: 20
    The Americans converted 4 Ohio missiles from strategic ones into carriers of cruise missiles. Maybe we can modify our new SSBNs in approximately the same way (taking into account not alterations, but construction from scratch), and rivet one boat in two modifications? The serial production will be unrealistic, the ammunition capacity will be even greater, we will be able to sow hundreds of them, secretly, without huge surface armadas, anywhere in the world, no worse than the Amerikoks. A good argument for any “blocs” and “superpowers”...
  56. typhoon7
    +3
    29 November 2013 18: 38
    Hello everyone. It seems that in modern armed forces, weapons can be either expensive or very expensive, starting from the fighter’s equipment, etc. Nuclear submarines have always been expensive, and modern boats with their electronic saturation are even more so. Sharks were also put under the knife, as they say, because of the high cost of their maintenance. With such a reply, in the 90s the fleet, aviation and army as a whole were reset. What’s happening to industry, to science-intensive industries, it’s scary to think about, and all this is called reforms? But the word sabotage pops into my head. Regarding the commission, if I’m not mistaken, Rogozin and even LADIES are included in it. Once I went to Rogozin’s website, it talked about the creation of this commission.
    1. +1
      29 November 2013 21: 05
      And if LADY himself put his hands on this terribly scientific and, most importantly, calculated report, then it is clear where the stinking wind is blowing from and who paid for this report generously.
  57. +1
    29 November 2013 18: 47
    It is necessary to conduct an in-depth analysis of the capabilities of the shipbuilding industry and the state’s ability to finance the project. Measure seven times, and then make a decision.
  58. +2
    29 November 2013 18: 53
    They used to write that Americans are the only ones afraid of ash trees. Maybe this is their machinations against a good project?
  59. The comment was deleted.
  60. mvg
    +1
    29 November 2013 19: 16
    Regarding “recognized dear”... Was it only just now recognized? After cutting? Was everything good at the design and construction stage? Do you even understand what you are writing? Like with SeaWolf... they built 3 of them, and then decided, fuck, it’s better to have an inexpensive Virginia... Or the Japanese with Type-90 and Type-10 tanks, almost the same, but a couple of million cheaper.. Yeahhh.. There’s billion “They are sawing”, and the people are sitting on the salary. Not fair. I want to be 17!!!
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. +3
    29 November 2013 19: 44
    Neverov, who loves to portray a “simple miner - a man of labor,” has never been involved in business, in recent years he has been sitting on our necks in the civil service, has no significant income, but managed to purchase a “dacha plot” worth 92 million rubles, which he registered for his mother-in-law - 75- summer pensioner from Novokuznetsk.

    When I wrote about his palace on September 4 of this year, Neverov had the audacity to say that he purchased and built it all with “money received from the sale of an apartment in Novokuznetsk.”
    According to the declaration, we see that Neverov really had a two-room apartment of 67 square meters in this city.

    Question for everyone: can we believe for even a second that an apartment of 67 meters in Novokuznetsk is comparable in cost to a huge plot on the banks of the Moscow River and a house that is probably twice as large as the main palace of the pioneers in Novokuznetsk?

    Of course not. We understand that Neverov is a disgusting liar and bribe-taker, like everyone else in United Russia. And his mysterious sources of income can be explained by only one word: “corruption.”
    Deputy Rudensky is doing very, very well with economic policy.

    He registered plot #1 (area 2996 sq.m.) to the dacha partnership "SOSNY" (and does not declare it, although he should), plot #2 (area 8213 sq.m.) is registered to Rudensky himself.
    The total cost of the land is 11.209 sq.m. approximately 74 million rubles. Plus, as we see, a huge house is being built on the site.

    Let's look at Rudensky's official income:


    2006 - 1.2 million rubles.

    2010 - 1.9 million rubles.

    2011 - 1.9 million rubles.

    2012 - 2 million rubles.

    My God. Shock. What an amazing anomaly.
    In 2006, Deputy Rudensky earns 1.2 million rubles, and has 198914 rubles in his bank account. 23 kopecks He continues to be a deputy, and in 2008 he buys land for an amount that is at that time his annual salary for decades.

    There is no explanation for where United Russia member Rudensky got tens of millions of rubles to buy a wonderful estate.
    Maybe I found a treasure. Or maybe he's just a thief and a bribe-taker.
    Nikolai Ivanovich Ashlapov was the curator of preparations for the APEC summit, the very one that we remember for the monstrous theft, wild inflations of prices, the uselessness of construction and objects that immediately began to crumble.

    Nikolai Ivanovich himself asserts, “Construction projects like those for the APEC summit are a recipe for a crisis.” We can agree with this if we mean a personal budget crisis.
    United Russia member Ashlapov successfully overcame such a crisis, as can be seen from the size of his dacha.
    The cost of the plot with the house is approximately 178 million rubles.

    Apparently, in order to avoid obvious parallels between the high cost of construction projects supervised by United Russia member Ashlapov and the size of his estate, Nikolai Ivanovich did not declare it in full.

    The actual plot consists of three cadastral plots:


    Plot #1, area 11347 sq.m.

    Plot #2, with an area of ​​750 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"

    Plot #3, with an area of ​​237 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"

    There is no second or third plot in the declaration.
  63. The comment was deleted.
  64. +1
    29 November 2013 19: 56
    HOME
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    COMPOSITION OF THE EXPERT COUNCIL
    Gareev Makhmut Akhmetovich
    President of the Academy of Military Sciences, Chairman of the Expert Council
    Remizov Mikhail Vitalievich
    President of the Institute of National Strategy, Chairman of the Presidium of the Expert Council
    Ageev Alexander Ivanovich
    General Director of the Institute of Economic Strategies of the Russian Academy of Sciences
    Azhgirevich Artyom Ivanovich
    First Deputy Executive Director of the Union of Mechanical Engineers of Russia
    Alexandrov Anatoly Alexandrovich
    Rector of MSTU named after. Bauman
    Aminov Said Muidinovich
    Senior Vice President of Novikombank (Russian Technologies), editor of the website "Vestnik PVO"
    Anokhin Sergey Vyacheslavovich
    Advisor to the head of DOSAAF
    Baranets Viktor Nikolaevich
    Military columnist for the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper
    Burutin Alexander Germanovich
    Vice-Rector of the Financial University under the Government of the Russian Federation
    Buttsev Vladimir Stepanovich
    Vice President for Nuclear Energy of the Russian Academy of Engineering
    Bushuev Nikolay Alexandrovich
    General Director of OJSC NPP Almaz
    Vinogradov Boris Alekseevich
    Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation, Chief Researcher of the Expert Analytical Center of the Ministry of Education and Science
    Gannot Anatoly Alexandrovich
    Head of the Organizational and Control Department of the Federal State Institution “Directorate for the Construction and Operation of Rosgranitsa Facilities”
    Gareev Timur Makhmutovich
    Deputy head of the control and audit department of a state institution Branch of the Russian Pension Fund for Moscow and the Moscow region.
    Glukhikh Viktor Konstantinovich
    Member of the Board of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, President of the International Congress of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs
    Golovatyuk Andrey Mikhailovich
    Deputy Chairman - State Secretary of DOSAAF of Russia, Member of the Public Council under the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Candidate of Political Sciences
    Golubev Vladimir Viktorovich
    President of the Interregional Scientific and Production Aviation Association
    Gorbunov Alexander Anatolievich
    General Director of the management company Prominvest LLC
    Grigoriev Maxim Sergeevich
    Member of the Public Chamber, General Director of the Foundation for Research on Democracy
    Gusev Boris Vladimirovich
    President of the Russian Engineering Academy
    Degtyarev Mikhail Evgenievich
    Editor-in-Chief of the Kalashnikov magazine
    Dorokhin Pavel Sergeevich
    Deputy Chairman of the Russian State Duma Committee on Industry
    Efimov Nikolay Nikolaevich
    Editor-in-chief of the newspaper "Red Star"
    Zharich Alexey Vyacheslavovich
    Deputy General Director of OJSC Uralvagonzavod
    Zabrodsky Andrey Georgievich
    Director of the A. F. Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences
    Zaitsev Dmitry Feoktistovich
    Deputy General Designer for Advanced Scientific Developments of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation, Professor at MIREA
    Ivanov Valentin Borisovich
    Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation, First Deputy Director for Science of VNIINM named after. Bochvara
    Ivanov Maxim Yurievich
    Chairman of the Board of the Association of Industrial Parks of Russia
    Kvochur Anatoly Nikolaevich
    Hero of Russia, Honored Test Pilot. Chief designer of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise "Pilot Research Center"
    Kokoshin Andrey Afanasevich
    Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Chairman of the Council on International Security Problems at the Department of Social Sciences of the Russian Academy of Sciences
    Kolpakov Sergey Konstantinovich
    General Director of the Interdepartmental Analytical Center
    Kondrukh Anatoly Ivanovich
    Chairman of the Board of the Limited Liability Company "Federation of Practical Shooting of Russia"





    And these so-called experts can say something about how a modern SSGN works!? Yes, they can hardly distinguish the bow from the stern.
    1. +1
      29 November 2013 21: 05
      Khramchikhin and Korotchenko are not enough for complete “happiness”.
      1. 0
        30 November 2013 00: 13
        There, they are there. http://sovetvpk.ru/staff/list see link.
    2. -1
      30 November 2013 19: 13
      Makhmudov and Timurov are to herd sheep, the rest are to raise pigs and rabbits. The experts suck. Maybe it will be easier and cheaper for Russia to drive these experts away from the trough.
  65. Megre
    +9
    29 November 2013 19: 57
    Sad reasoning of a submarine.
  66. +1
    29 November 2013 20: 01
    http://sovetvpk.ru/staff/list а это ссылка.Всех экспертов окно не помещает там еще много таких.Пардон за грамматическую ошибку в комментарии.
  67. +2
    29 November 2013 20: 06
    Here are our submarines and aircraft carriers!
    _______________________________
    “... Neverov, who loves to portray a “simple miner - a man of labor,” has never been involved in business, in recent years he has been sitting on our necks in the civil service, has no significant income, but managed to purchase a “dacha plot” worth 92 million rubles, which he registered in his mother-in-law - a 75-year-old pensioner from Novokuznetsk.
    ...Neverov had the audacity to say that he acquired and would build it all with “money received from the sale of an apartment in Novokuznetsk.”
    According to the declaration... Neverov really had a two-room apartment of 67 square meters in this city.
    Question for everyone: can we believe for even a second that an apartment of 67 meters in Novokuznetsk is comparable in cost to a huge plot on the banks of the Moscow River and a house that is probably twice as large as the main palace of the pioneers in Novokuznetsk?

    Deputy Rudensky is doing very, very well with economic policy.
    He registered plot #1 (area 2996 sq.m.) to the dacha partnership "SOSNY" (and does not declare it, although he should), plot #2 (area 8213 sq.m.) is registered to Rudensky himself.
    The total cost of the land is 11.209 sq.m. approximately 74 million rubles. Plus, a huge house is being built on the site.
    Let's look at Rudensky's official income:
    2006 - 1.2 million rubles.
    2010 - 1.9 million rubles.
    2011 - 1.9 million rubles.
    2012 - 2 million rubles.
    My God. Shock. What an amazing anomaly.
    In 2006, Deputy Rudensky earns 1.2 million rubles, and has 198914 rubles in his bank account. 23 kopecks He continues to be a deputy, and in 2008 he buys land for an amount that is at that time his annual salary for decades.
    There is no explanation for where United Russia member Rudensky got tens of millions of rubles to buy a wonderful estate.
    Maybe I found a treasure. Or maybe he...

    Nikolai Ivanovich Ashlapov was the curator of preparations for the APEC summit, the very one that we remember for the monstrous theft, wild inflations of prices, the uselessness of construction and objects that immediately began to crumble.
    Nikolai Ivanovich himself asserts, “Construction projects like those for the APEC summit are a recipe for a crisis.” We can agree with this if we mean a personal budget crisis.
    United Russia member Ashlapov successfully overcame such a crisis, as can be seen from the size of his dacha.
    The cost of the plot with the house is approximately 178 million rubles.
    Apparently, in order to avoid obvious parallels between the high cost of construction projects supervised by United Russia member Ashlapov and the size of his estate, Nikolai Ivanovich did not declare it in full.
    The actual plot consists of three cadastral plots:
    Plot #1, area 11347 sq.m.
    Plot #2, with an area of ​​750 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"
    Plot #3, with an area of ​​237 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"
    There is no second or third plot in the declaration.
  68. 0
    29 November 2013 20: 06
    Here are our submarines and aircraft carriers!
    _______________________________
    “... Neverov, who loves to portray a “simple miner - a man of labor,” has never been involved in business, in recent years he has been sitting on our necks in the civil service, has no significant income, but managed to purchase a “dacha plot” worth 92 million rubles, which he registered in his mother-in-law - a 75-year-old pensioner from Novokuznetsk.
    ...Neverov had the audacity to say that he acquired and would build it all with “money received from the sale of an apartment in Novokuznetsk.”
    According to the declaration... Neverov really had a two-room apartment of 67 square meters in this city.
    Question for everyone: can we believe for even a second that an apartment of 67 meters in Novokuznetsk is comparable in cost to a huge plot on the banks of the Moscow River and a house that is probably twice as large as the main palace of the pioneers in Novokuznetsk?

    Deputy Rudensky is doing very, very well with economic policy.
    He registered plot #1 (area 2996 sq.m.) to the dacha partnership "SOSNY" (and does not declare it, although he should), plot #2 (area 8213 sq.m.) is registered to Rudensky himself.
    The total cost of the land is 11.209 sq.m. approximately 74 million rubles. Plus, a huge house is being built on the site.
    Let's look at Rudensky's official income:
    2006 - 1.2 million rubles.
    2010 - 1.9 million rubles.
    2011 - 1.9 million rubles.
    2012 - 2 million rubles.
    My God. Shock. What an amazing anomaly.
    In 2006, Deputy Rudensky earns 1.2 million rubles, and has 198914 rubles in his bank account. 23 kopecks He continues to be a deputy, and in 2008 he buys land for an amount that is at that time his annual salary for decades.
    There is no explanation for where United Russia member Rudensky got tens of millions of rubles to buy a wonderful estate.
    Maybe I found a treasure. Or maybe he...

    Nikolai Ivanovich Ashlapov was the curator of preparations for the APEC summit, the very one that we remember for the monstrous theft, wild inflations of prices, the uselessness of construction and objects that immediately began to crumble.
    Nikolai Ivanovich himself asserts, “Construction projects like those for the APEC summit are a recipe for a crisis.” We can agree with this if we mean a personal budget crisis.
    United Russia member Ashlapov successfully overcame such a crisis, as can be seen from the size of his dacha.
    The cost of the plot with the house is approximately 178 million rubles.
    Apparently, in order to avoid obvious parallels between the high cost of construction projects supervised by United Russia member Ashlapov and the size of his estate, Nikolai Ivanovich did not declare it in full.
    The actual plot consists of three cadastral plots:
    Plot #1, area 11347 sq.m.
    Plot #2, with an area of ​​750 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"
    Plot #3, with an area of ​​237 sq.m., is registered in the DNP "SOSNY"
    There is no second or third plot in the declaration.
  69. The comment was deleted.
  70. +1
    29 November 2013 20: 10
    Sergey Eduardovich Prikhodko, Deputy Prime Minister and Head of the Government Staff.
    Plot #1 covers an area of ​​19.817 sq.m., plot #2 8.143 sq.m. Total 27.960 sq.m. or almost 3 hectares. The first plot was registered as a property in 2011, the second in 2008. We will explain why below.
    Also on the plot there is a house of 1580 sq.m. and a bathhouse of 137 sq.m.
    Let's take a closer look at the biography of Sergei Eduardovich:
    In 1986-1987 - attache, third secretary of the Office of the Socialist Countries of Europe of the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
    In 1992-1993 - second secretary, first secretary of the Russian Embassy in the Czechoslovak Republic.
    In 1993-1997 - head of department, head of department, deputy director of the Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation.
    Since April 9, 1997 - Assistant to the President of the Russian Federation.
    Since September 14, 1998 - Deputy Head of the Administration of the President of the Russian Federation.
    Since February 2, 1999 - Deputy Head of the Administration of the President of the Russian Federation - Head of the Office of the President of the Russian Federation for Foreign Policy.
    Since March 26, 2004 - Assistant to the President of the Russian Federation.
    Since May 21, 2012 - First Deputy Head of the Government Office of the Russian Federation
    Since May 9, 2013 - Acting Chief of Staff of the Government of the Russian Federation.
    Since May 22, 2013 - Deputy Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation and Head of the Staff of the Government of the Russian Federation.
    He has been in public service all his life. You can say...Servant of the people.
    Let's look at the income:
    In 2012, he earned 10.7 million rubles, in 2011 - 6.8 million rubles, in 2010 - 6.2 million rubles, in 2009 - 6.5 million rubles, in 2008 (the year when Prikhodko bought the plot and began construction ) — 5.3 million rubles.
    We take a microscope and again look at the income and again we do not find anything in it that would explain the presence of such luxurious real estate.
    How much does this plot cost? A large plot of land is for sale nearby, the price is $20 thousand per hundred square meters. Let’s even ignore the fact that Prikhodko’s site is on the river bank, and the one with which we are comparing is 300 meters away. 279,6 acres for $20 thousand dollars turns out to be $5.6 million or 184.5 million rubles. Even if Prikhodko’s income did not grow until 2008 and amounted to 5.3 million rubles a year, then he had to work for 34 years for just one plot, live on the street, walk and eat nothing.
    And looking at the photograph of “civil servant” Prikhodko, we resolutely refuse to believe that he has not drunk or eaten for 34 years.
    And this does not take into account the cost of building a house of 1.5 thousand square meters, a huge bathhouse, communications, etc.
  71. The comment was deleted.
  72. +1
    29 November 2013 20: 11
    Isn’t it an enemy voice pushing this idea about the high cost of the 885 project?
    The Yasen project has the most unique weapons in terms of quality and choice, in comparison with all existing submarines of this type. The cost of Severodvinsk, as the first prototype, will be 47 billion rubles, and the next in the series will be about 34 billion rubles. And about the gentlemen, who are strenuously advocating for the refusal to rearm Russia because of the high cost, perhaps they are more concerned about replenishing their wallets?
  73. The comment was deleted.
  74. +2
    29 November 2013 20: 11
    Well, and a tank battalion to boot...
    _____________________
    ...the main ideologist of United Russia, responsible for all internal politics in the country - Vyacheslav Viktorovich Volodin - First Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration, member of the Bureau of the Supreme Council of United Russia.
    A platform that hints to us with its letter “H” that while all sorts of suckers are stuck in traffic jams, their power is flying on helicopters.
    According to a minimum estimate, all this costs no less than 155 million rubles, and, most likely, much more than 200.
    I remind you that since 1996, Monsieur Volodin has been strictly in the civil service. He could not and cannot legally earn money to buy and maintain such beauty. Obviously, the monthly operating costs here are more than his salary.
    Let's look at the declarations: 2012 - 6.7 million rubles, 2011 - 4 million rubles, 2010 - 6.5 million rubles.
    True, in 2009 there was a mysterious and amazing income of 350 million rubles from the sale of shares of an oil and fat plant, but this rather raises questions about how, when, why and how much he bought these shares.
    In any case, we see that the “civil servant” Volodin owns property, the maintenance of which exceeds his official annual income. This, apparently, worries Volodin himself, which is why he was also embarrassed to declare the entire plot of land.
    Plot #2 covers an area of ​​8320 sq.m., plot #1 11105 sq.m. Total 19425 sq.m.
    The second plot is registered to the “Sosny” dacha non-profit partnership, which has already been mentioned several times in this post.
    And it is not in the declaration.
    Plot 8320 sq.m. yes, there is a house of 744.2 sq.m., but there is no plot of 11105 sq.m. owned through a “dacha partnership” and in use..." (c)
    1. +2
      29 November 2013 21: 08
      As long as there are such “Zits-chairmen”, one can only dream of a powerful state!
  75. 0
    29 November 2013 20: 40
    Serdyukovism is in effect, and therefore our fleet is without great nuclear submarines!!! Serdyuk in action, the main thing for them is to steal, but they are sure that they won’t go to jail!!! After all, they slammed not a bag of frozen potatoes, but millions. And in our liberal country they don’t go to jail for this. So Ostap Bender is more alive than anyone else alive.
  76. +1
    29 November 2013 23: 18
    Quote: karal
    karal SU Today, 13:11 ↑

    The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???

    The country may be the richest, but the people are poor, and the oligarchs don’t care about boats.
  77. +1
    29 November 2013 23: 18
    Quote: karal
    karal SU Today, 13:11 ↑

    The author of the report needs to repair the head, not the old submarines. One of the richest countries, but no money ???

    The country may be the richest, but the people are poor, and the oligarchs don’t care about boats.
  78. 0
    29 November 2013 23: 27
    Experience shows that a good financial audit of the design bureau, the parent enterprise and suppliers of components in cooperation can reduce the cost of products by at least an order of magnitude.
    1. Onyx
      0
      29 November 2013 23: 55
      Quote: scientist
      Experience shows that a good financial audit of the design bureau, the parent enterprise and suppliers of components in cooperation can reduce the cost of products by at least an order of magnitude.

      A whole order of magnitude? 10 times?
  79. +1
    30 November 2013 08: 51
    Here is another example of a betrayal of the country’s interests: The President says one thing, and these “experts” say something else! It’s time to probe them for one place, in whose interests they give such conclusions. Yes, one of Abramovich’s yachts, according to boastful statements, is at the level of an aircraft carrier, and they say that there is no money! So take away immediately what all these bureaucrats and oligarchs have stolen from the country. In general, all this proves what kind of opposition there is to any decisions of the President. It’s time to uproot the clearing, it’s time! Siberia is waiting for the most advanced “experts” and their inspiration!
  80. 0
    30 November 2013 08: 51
    Here is another example of a betrayal of the country’s interests: The President says one thing, and these “experts” say something else! It’s time to probe them for one place, in whose interests they give such conclusions. Yes, one of Abramovich’s yachts, according to boastful statements, is at the level of an aircraft carrier, and they say that there is no money! So take away immediately what all these bureaucrats and oligarchs have stolen from the country. In general, all this proves what kind of opposition there is to any decisions of the President. It’s time to uproot the clearing, it’s time! Siberia is waiting for the most advanced “experts” and their inspiration!
  81. +1
    30 November 2013 09: 23
    And I also want to add a few words: popular wisdom says that a miser pays twice! I would like to remind you of the words of one far from stupid person: if you don’t want to feed your army, then you will feed someone else’s! Here you will think about WHO and WHY makes such conclusions. The most precious thing is FREEDOM! And let’s not skimp on preserving it!
  82. +1
    30 November 2013 09: 23
    And I also want to add a few words: popular wisdom says that a miser pays twice! I would like to remind you of the words of one far from stupid person: if you don’t want to feed your army, then you will feed someone else’s! Here you will think about WHO and WHY makes such conclusions. The most precious thing is FREEDOM! And let’s not skimp on preserving it!
  83. +2
    30 November 2013 13: 30
    Under no circumstances should the Yasen project be frozen; there are no other projects, and their development will take years - which Russia simply DOES NOT have! And will there be more? There is clearly an orderly motive from the US State Department, which saw in Ashes a significant counterweight for their Virginia nuclear submarines. The number of Ashes should be comparable to American ones and no other way.
  84. +3
    30 November 2013 13: 30
    Under no circumstances should the Yasen project be frozen; there are no other projects, and their development will take years - which Russia simply DOES NOT have! And will there be more? There is clearly an orderly motive from the US State Department, which saw in Ashes a significant counterweight for their Virginia nuclear submarines. The number of Ashes should be comparable to American ones and no other way.
    1. typhoon7
      0
      1 December 2013 19: 43
      In any case, the boat is good and carries great weapons, the X-101 alone is worth it. this is a really good argument against AUG, Virginia and so on.
  85. 0
    30 November 2013 15: 35
    No matter what sphere you take, it’s the same damn thing!!!! corruption, sawing, bribery and banal theft and at the same time no actions on the part of the authorities, just dust in the eyes and God's dew, What kind of Revival of Russia can we talk about in EVERYONE for now, I will repeat the same thing in ALL spheres, I am not a supporter of revolutions , but there is a feeling that the People (not the Electorate) are stubbornly being led there on a wave of anger about justice and truth
  86. +2
    30 November 2013 15: 35
    No matter what sphere you take, it’s the same damn thing!!!! corruption, sawing, bribery and banal theft and at the same time no actions on the part of the authorities, just dust in the eyes and God's dew, What kind of Revival of Russia can we talk about in EVERYONE for now, I will repeat the same thing in ALL spheres, I am not a supporter of revolutions , but the feeling is that the People (not the Electorate) are stubbornly being led there on a wave of anger about justice and truth
  87. G02.
    0
    30 November 2013 16: 21
    A.M. Pokrovsky

    BOOTS AND GRANDS

    Captain first rank Sapogov (nickname Boot), a boor, a drunkard and deputy division commander for combat training, fled to the boat. Next to him, a scientist from Sevastopol was skipping, barely able to keep up. He was completely unprepared for the fact that they rush around like that in the navy. Breathing heavily and trying to run in front of the Boot, he kept trying to look into his eyes. The scientist was interested in the ladders. He had to come up with a ladder that would be a real gift for the fleet. This is why he came, to closely study the demands and needs of the fleet. It didn't work closely. He was fastened to the Boot, and he was constantly running somewhere. And now he was very late, so itchy he was late.
    - And... what kind of ladder do you need? - escaped from the scientific chest with a hundred-year-old wheeze.
    - Gangway? I'm telling you - light, durable, so that with the effort of six people: once - and to the side - the drunkard, boor and deputy division commander ran forward.
    Not a drop of time, he even whined as he ran. They ran in silence for a minute, the scientist absorbing the information.
    - Well, but still? What features should there be?.. What do you think?
    - Who? At the gangway? Well, you... I’m telling you: light, durable, enough for six people from pier to pier...
    “Hurry, hurry,” Boots urged himself, always in wild time pressure, “and here science is clinging to his pants.” He picked up the pace. A minute later the scientist caught up with him.
    - Well, but still, what do you think?.. What should he have first of all?
    - Who? Ladder?
    The deputy division commander, a drunkard and a boor, suddenly braked. His natural color was red. Crayfish eyes stared at the scientist. Then he took him by the tie and moved closer. Unexpectedly for science, he squealed:
    - Kle-pa-ny Ku-li-bin!!! What did I tell you? Lightweight, durable, so that six people can quickly grab it and go straight to the hump; and ahead of their squeal, they skipped for kilometers, joyfully raising their asses. What are you talking about, science? Was Keldysh made sluggish or something? A? What are you staring at, the fainting worm? Where did you come from, foot and mouth disease? It's time for you to die, and you keep inventing ladders. They stuck to their homeland like baby kangaroos to their sires. You can't tear it off until you tear it. They stuck around, du-re-ma-ry...
    And so on and so forth. In the direction of reducing the number of words, letters and culture. The boot stopped when there was no culture left at all, and only three letters remained. He took a breath and put three letters into the last word, short as a fig.
    The scientist was petrified. He had never heard such words addressed to himself in real life.
    Seeing that the scientist had turned to stone, Boot left him with the words: “I’m completely crazy, I wouldn’t wet myself” - and ran away to the ship that was blasting away with all its might.
    When he came from the autonomous station, the ramp was waiting for him. It was possible to establish two-way traffic along it. It weighed exactly a ton more than what six people could lift, strained.
    - Where is this Kulibin? - Boot yelled, seeing the ladder and kicking it with a swing of his foot. - Cut into pieces and send to Sevastopol. Where did this come from, I ask, at whose initiative?
    He wandered around the pier for a long time, and the division duty officer fussed around guiltily and took in everything.
  88. rocketman
    +1
    1 December 2013 01: 50
    Quote: Arberes
    No money for aircraft carriers! On the latest submarines, too, is not enough? What kind of disgust in the end then !!!

    But there is money for Sochi and the World Cup. If you take and collect only the money that was and will be stolen, then there will be enough not only for ash trees, but also for a couple of aircraft carriers, the stump is clear!
    1. Onyx
      +2
      1 December 2013 02: 17
      Quote: rocketman
      But there is money for Sochi and the World Cup. If you take and collect only the money that was and will be stolen, then there will be enough not only for ash trees, but also for a couple of aircraft carriers, the stump is clear!

      You would rather not regret the Olympics, but the tribute that Russia, like most countries in the world, continues to pay to the United States. The Olympics and the Serdyukovs are simply nothing compared to this money
  89. EdwardTich68
    0
    1 December 2013 01: 57
    Not that much is stolen; such products are really expensive.
  90. gunnerminer
    0
    1 December 2013 02: 06
    The boat is not only expensive, but also unfinished, imposed on the Russian Navy. The reactor reaches only 40% of its power, the speed limit when firing from torpedo tubes is no more than 5 knots, the noise is such that they cannot make an entry in the acoustic log.
    1. 0
      1 December 2013 19: 16
      Where does all the info come from?
  91. +2
    1 December 2013 11: 43
    Sounds like sabotage.
  92. 0
    April 4 2014 22: 36
    Complete nonsense. Look how much similar foreign ones cost - without exception, they are all more, but in a number of parameters they are inferior.

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