"Tigers" are burning

290
Under this 9 headline in July 1943, a front-line report was published in the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper, from which Soviet people found out about the new German offensive on the Kursk Bulge that started four days ago. On the same day, a battle began in the fields of an unknown until then to the village of Prokhorovka, which became the apotheosis of the grandiose clash of two opposing armies near Kursk.

"Tigers" are burning

Military historians of the whole world, of course, have long and secondly painted the course of the whole battle, arguing endlessly about its course, plans, losses and results. Now we know that in fact the battle lasted seven days and that there was no through attack of two powerful avalanches tanksand that there was a Soviet frontal attack of German tanks, temporarily switched to defense, and that this led to heavy losses. We also know that, in addition to orders and directives, hundreds of thousands of soldiers breathed life into colorful arrows on staff maps at Hitler’s headquarters and Stalin’s office. At the price of their blood it was decided the fate of the Prokhorov battle, the road to which began long before that July day ...

“There must be no failures! ..”

With these words, in May 1943 of the year, Hitler concluded the final meeting with his generals on the operation “Citadel”? - the plan of the summer offensive of 1943. But, alas, despite such confidence of the German Supreme Commander, the military story She knew many examples when a well-planned and prepared operation was doomed to failure long before it began. Never before had Soviet intelligence been able to penetrate so deeply into the plans of the German command and so accurately determine the composition and resources of the enemy forces. Information from scouts Sandor Rado, John Cancross, Nikolai Kuznetsov, Alexander Aleksakhin, NKVD and GRU task forces, partisans and underground workers, military, aviation and intelligence has become one of the main building blocks of a future Soviet victory. The obtained information allowed Marshal G.? K.? Zhukov to propose his plan of action at the meeting with Stalin already on April 12, 1943: “I consider the transition of our troops on the offensive in the coming days to prevent the enemy inappropriate. It will be better if we exhaust the enemy on our defenses, knock out his tanks, and then, having introduced fresh reserves, transferring to a general offensive, we will finally finish off the main grouping of the enemy. ”

This plan was approved by the Stavka and made it possible for the first time in the history of military art that the Red Army moved on to strategic defense with its numerical superiority.

On the contrary, the plan of the German operation “Citadel” was to surround and destroy the Central and Voronezh fronts defending on the Kursk salute in the general direction to Kursk with powerful counter blows from the Orel and Belgorod regions, and then develop an offensive with the aim of reaching a deep Soviet rear and creating a threat to Moscow.

The main idea of ​​the German plan was to create a significant superiority on the directions of the main attacks and, using tank units, massively quickly break through the defenses before the approach of large Soviet reserves. The enemy believed that the suddenness and speed of action, multiplied by the high penetrating ability of tank divisions, their best tactical training and high-quality technical superiority, would ensure success. The role of the main striking force in the upcoming offensive was assigned to the Wehrmacht, who received everything in large quantities, for weapons of the Wehrmacht, first of all heavy Tvi Tiger tanks, medium Panther TV tanks, Ferdinand and Brumbar assault weapons, and FokkeWulf190 assault guns "And attack aircraft" Henschel129 ".

The tasks of the enemy's strike groups in the operation “Citadel” were significantly “shorter” than those set by the Wehrmacht in 1941 – 1942. For example, the troops of Army Group Center should have advanced 75 km, and Army Group South, 125 km. But for such a “short” offensive, powerful forces were attracted: about 70% tank, up to 30% motorized, more than 20% infantry divisions operating on the Soviet-German front, as well as over 65% aviation. The German command sent more than 900 thousand personnel, about 10 thousand guns and mortars, more than 2,7 thousand tanks and assault guns and more than 2 thousand aircraft to carry out the operation "Citadel". These were selective troops of the Wehrmacht and the SS, commanded by the most experienced German generals: E. Manstein, G. Kluge, V. Model, G. Got, P. Hausser, and others.


The Soviet command, in turn, placed its stakes on the deep separation of the combat forces of troops and defensive positions with a well-developed system of trenches, communication lines and other engineering structures, on new tactics of anti-tank defense, the use of large strategic reserves and high combat spirit of soldiers and officers, markedly increased after the victory at Stalingrad. Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, more than 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft, excluding the backup Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in people 1,4 times, in artillery - in 1,9, in tanks and ACS - in 1,2 and on airplanes - 1,4 times.
The total depth of the defense prepared by the Soviet troops at Kursk was 250 – 300 km.

On the Central and Voronezh fronts there were 5 – 6 defensive lines and lines. The first two lanes were a tactical defense zone, and the third - an army defensive line. In addition, there were still 2 – 3 front-line. Along with this, a defensive line was created for the troops of the Steppe Front, and a state line of defense was prepared along the left bank of the Don. In the most important areas, the defensive lines were occupied by the troops with the expectation that even if the enemy succeeds in breaking through the defense of the army, then in the depths he will meet not “operational space,” but a new defense rich in engineering structures. The defense was built primarily as an anti-tank, the depth of which near Kursk for the first time in the war reached 30 – 35 km. It was based on anti-tank strongholds, built, as a rule, in battalion defense areas, and anti-tank areas. Cannon and howitzer artillery was prepared for firing at tanks with direct fire. It was supposed to use flamethrowing units to fight enemy tanks. More than 1 million anti-tank mines were installed in front of the front line and in the depth of defense, many tens of kilometers of anti-tank barriers were erected: ditches, escarpes, counter eskarps, ridges, forest obstructions, etc.? An important element of the anti-tank defense became mobile units obstacles. The population mobilized by the local authorities and involved in the construction of defensive fortifications provided enormous assistance to the front forces.


In April, 43-th in the Central and Voronezh fronts lanes more than 100 thousand people were involved in defensive works, and in June almost 300 thousand. Together with the troops, they dug more than 9 thousand km of trenches and communication lines, built 686 bridges, restored more than 2 thousand km of roads. In two months, more than 300 thousand carriages with troops and equipment were delivered under the Kursk. All this was worth the colossal human labor, but it’s not for nothing that they think that ten liters of sweat preserve a liter of blood ...

Numerous delays in the beginning of the German offensive, caused by the desire to use more new tanks, gave the Soviet troops three invaluable months to prepare and improve their defenses. And this time was not wasted. A certain calculation was made by the Soviet command on the use of the new SU152 and SU122 self-propelled artillery systems, the new PTN 1,5 – 2,5 bombs, the new cumulative projectiles of the 460 BP BP, the new fighter La 5 FN.

By the beginning of July, two huge armies concentrated enormous forces on each other for a decisive blow. Voltage was rising in the hot July air ...

Doomed "Citadel"

When the 7 on July 5 in the morning of 1943, after the start of the expected German offensive, the commander of the Central Front, Colonel-General KK Rokossovsky, reported to him on the direct line to the Supreme Command General Headquarters, Stalin asked with a chill: ? ”“ To the fact that our calculations were fully confirmed, which means that the outcome of the battle is predetermined! ”The future marshal replied cheerfully.

The beginning of the battle immediately took a grand scale and was extremely tense. But it soon became clear that the German offensive was not evolving according to plan. The blows of the German groupings were in the nature of gnawing Soviet positions. It was only at the cost of huge losses that they managed to penetrate into our defenses in certain sectors. German troops were in the position of a bear in a trap surrounded by hunting dogs. Tanks and infantry were tied up in a maze of Soviet trenches and minefields, continually sending messages “Stopped! Were digging! .. ”The calculations for the capture of Kursk on the second day were clearly inflated.

On the northern face of the Kursk bulge behind the 8 days of desperate efforts, the Germans managed only to penetrate into the defense of the Central Front in the area of ​​width 10 km and depth of 10 – 12 km in the area of ​​the settlement of Olhovatki and Art. Dives Having lost 42 thousand soldiers and officers, before 500 tanks and assault guns, the enemy did not solve any of the tasks and eventually had to stop the offensive and go on the defensive.

The most dramatic events developed on the southern face of the Kursk Bulge in the defense zone of the Voronezh Front, where the battles were distinguished by great bitterness and heavy losses on our part. Here, the nature of the terrain was more favorable to the use of tanks than on the north face, but the front commander, Colonel-General N. F. Vatutin, was unable to determine the location of the main attack of the enemy, which advanced into the depth of the Soviet defense to 35 km. The Germans, who did not have superiority in tanks, skillfully created six-fold superiority in narrow sectors and under the cover of massive air strikes stubbornly rammed our defenses.

The enemy overcame the front page of the Soviet defense in just 17 hours, and although it was very different from the planned German pace, this rate was regarded as rapid in the Red Army Headquarters.


The actions of the enemy were characterized by a high degree of consistency and intensity of the use of fire of all means. For example, groups of 10 – 15 heavy tanks, being beyond the reach of our anti-tank guns and tanks, fired heavy fire on infantry trenches and artillery positions. Under their cover, they attacked medium and light tanks, followed by infantry on armored personnel carriers. Attacks of the enemy were conducted with the powerful support of aviation. Bombers in groups of 50 – 60 aircraft continuously bombed the defenders, although sometimes there were times when enemy aircraft were over the battlefield at the same time before 400 ...

But our troops did not flinch, they cut off the German infantry from the tanks and destroyed it with all kinds of fire, and they broke into hand-to-hand combat with those who broke through into trenches and passages.

In these battles, Soviet gunners used the tactics of the so-called "flashing guns", selected as bait to lure the enemy tanks. "Flashing guns" opened fire on the columns from a great distance, forcing the advancing tanks to deploy on solid minefields and substitute their sides to the batteries that were standing in ambush. Significant damage to enemy tanks inflicted ground attack aircraft, which used new bombs with shaped charges. Soviet attack aircraft pierced the armor of all German tanks, including the "tigers" ...


But the enemy’s tanks and infantry, despite heavy losses, continued to persevere, destroying one anti-tank stronghold after another. By July 9, the Germans stopped raking our defenses with a direct blow and began to look for weak areas in it. This direction, according to the German command, was Prokhorovka, from where it was possible to get to Kursk bypass, considering that the offensive on the northern face of the Kursk Bulge was already choking. It was here that the Soviet command sent reserve armies: 5 guards. tank P.? Rotmistrov and 5 Guards. General A.? Zhadova from the Steppe Front. And the German command opposed them to the 2-th SS Panzer Corps? Hausser. On this site in 35 km for seven days the climax battle of the Kursk battle unfolded.

On the morning of 12 on July 1943, German reconnaissance planes with purple rockets alerted their troops to the approach of Soviet tanks. SS brigadeführer Helmut Becker, commander of the regiment of the SS Division “Dead Head”, recalled: “I noticed clouds of dust on the horizon. And soon from these clouds began to appear Russian tanks. These Russians moved their reserves? I said to my chief of staff and realized that we had lost the battle for Kursk. ”

“Yes, the enemy was brave. All the more our glory! ”

These lines of Konstantin Simonov were written about KhalkhinGol, but they can be safely attributed to the battle of Kursk. We must not forget that, despite the defeat at Stalingrad, the Wehrmacht was still a very strong adversary. The system of training and training of troops, the interaction of the types of troops on the battlefield, the organization of communications and control were without exaggeration the best in the world at that time.


Nazi Germany began preparations for the next “general offensive” on the Eastern Front in April 1943 of the year, mobilizing all its resources and capabilities for this. To compensate for the enormous human losses and to restore the divisions that were defeated in winter battles, the German leadership resorted to total mobilization. For any other operation during the entire period of the Second World War, the military-political leadership of the Third Reich did not prepare as comprehensively, as carefully as for the offensive near Kursk. All tank divisions and a number of infantry divisions were withdrawn from the front edge, where the respite was used to train the troops according to a carefully planned plan. First, classes were conducted on the scale of a platoon, then a company, a battalion, a regiment, and then at the level of divisional exercises. Every square meter of the Kursk bulge was photographed from the air. Starting from company commanders, all the officers commanding the advancing troops spent whole days at the forefront in order to study the terrain and the Soviet defense system. The fire plan and the interaction between artillery and infantry were carefully developed. Especially serious training was conducted to ensure the closest interaction between aviation and ground forces. The morale of the German troops was quite high: they were ready to suffer any losses, but to fulfill all the tasks assigned to them. For the only time during the entire war on the Eastern Front, the German divisions received rest for several weeks before the offensive and were fully staffed and equipped with combat equipment. Thus, the 48 tank corps had more than 300 tanks and 60 assault guns, of which 180 was part of the “Great Germany” division, and 80 of them were new “panthers”. At the cusp of the main attack was the "Hitler's Guard" - the 2-th SS tank corps as part of the SS elite tank divisions Leibstandart, Reich, and Dead Head. “Today,” said Hitler’s address to the troops, which he read on the night before the offensive, “you are launching a great offensive battle that can have a decisive influence on the outcome of the war as a whole. And you should know that everything can depend on the outcome of this battle. ” And the German soldiers acted decisively and skillfully, confident in their superiority.

Peresevshy this time on the "Tiger", the German tank ace Untersturmführer SS Division "Leibstandarte" Michael Wittmann during the Battle of Kursk destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 antitank guns, which amounted to 20% of destroyed them during the war 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns. It was Wittman's battalion that repelled the attack of the 181 of the Soviet tank tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...


8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...

On July 12, in the battle of Prokhorovka, the tank company of the SS division Leibstandard under the command of Obersturmführer Rudolf von Ribbentrop, the son of the foreign minister, was attacked by a large group of tanks T34. The distance was reduced to 175 meters, and the effectiveness of the German guns was neutralized. The battle took place in direct contact. In just one day, Ribbentrop's crew destroyed 14 Soviet tanks ... The commander of the 2 Battalion of the 6 Panzer Division, Major Franz Becke, on the night of July 11, captured the heavily fortified town of Rzhavets. At the same time he personally destroyed the manual anti-tank weapons three Soviet tanks ...


Yes, tactical training, combat experience and determination of German soldiers cost the Soviet side dearly. Now historians characterize the losses of the parties at Kursk as 4: 1 is not in our favor. A loss 5-y Guards. the tank army under Prokhorovka is generally estimated at more than 50% of the initial composition.

But despite our heavy losses, the German offensive turned into a defeat for the enemy. 10 July 1943, the Allies landed on Sicily, thinly opening a second front in Europe, and on July 12, on the day of the Battle of Prokhorovka, the Soviet troops of the Western and Bryansk fronts launched an offensive on the Orel direction according to the plan of Operation Kutuzov. This made senseless further continuation of the offensive. The General Inspector of the German Armored Forces of G.? Guderian wrote: “As a result of the failure of the“ Citadel ”offensive, we suffered a decisive defeat. Needless to say, the Russians were quick to take advantage of the success. And more on the Eastern Front there were no calm days. The initiative is completely transferred to the enemy. "

The main calculation

With the tactical and technical superiority of the Germans and with our numerical and moral superiority, the forces of the parties became approximately equal. The military art of commanders and the combat skills of soldiers and officers came to the fore. Here, the Soviet command relied on the traditional qualities of the Russian soldier - resilience and courage, which over the past two years the war only intensified. This, by the way, was clearly understood by the Germans. This is how Alfred Rubbel, an 503 heavy tank battalion of the tigers, recalled those distant battles of the Tigers: “... We did not expect anything good, because we already knew the Russians as courageous and stubborn soldiers who are very difficult to put to flight. And we had every reason to believe that this would be the case here. Approximately the same thing was told to us by our commanders. ” And the Soviet soldier fully justified the German fears.

Without diminishing the merit of the defenders of the northern flank of the Kursk Bulge, I would like, without going into the course and description of the hostilities, to dwell in more detail on some of the heroic actions of the soldiers and officers of the Voronezh Front, where the most tense situation developed in those July 1943 days. Unlike the Battle of Stalingrad, where mostly infantry took on enemy tank attacks, gunners became heroes of the fighting near Kursk, who stood on their positions until the last breath and the projectile ...

In the morning of July 5, the enemy launched an offensive and threw forward at the 1008 Iptap battery section, Senior Lieutenant Alikhan Gagkaev 35 tanks, including heavy "tigers", and infantry. Reflecting the onslaught, the gunners, along with two neighboring batteries, repulsed two attacks, set fire to 17 tanks, and destroyed up to a company of nazi soldiers. The share personally battery commander had four tanks. When repelling the third attack, when all the guns were disabled, the men switched to grenades and anti-tank guns. Then they grabbed melee in which their commander died.


11 July, when in a fire platoon 199 Guards. artillery regiment guards ml. Lieutenant Rostislav Kushlyansky left only one weapon, he bravely entered into an unequal battle with a large group of tanks. His calculation set fire to three and knocked down five tanks. And when his calculation failed, the commander himself began at the gun and one after another knocked out three more tanks, the last shot at the tank was fired at a distance of six meters ... On the same day, July 11, 1943, in the area of ​​Prokhorovka, accomplished his feat 19-year-old Komsomol of the artillery battalion of the 58-th motorized rifle brigade Guards Art. Sergeant Mikhail Borisov. Its battery was attacked by 19 tigers. Taking advantage of the thick smoke that hid the battery from the enemy, the gunners, letting the tanks at a distance of 500 meters, suddenly opened fire and immediately destroyed two tanks. But with the return fire, in just a few minutes of the battle, the "tigers" shot the entire battery. Of the 28 gunners, only the senior sergeant survived, who remained with the only surviving gun. For 17 minutes of battle, he alone, inducing and loading a weapon, knocked out 7 "tigers". He managed to stop the eighth tank with a shot at close range from a distance of 60 meters, but the return shot was seriously wounded ...

No less selflessly and heroically acted Soviet tankers. Clashes with more sophisticated German tanks, superior to Soviet armor and armament, demanded special courage and military skill ... 6 July 1943, near the village of Yakovlevo, a tank platoon of GW. Lieutenant Voldemar Shalandin from 1y Guards. tank brigade joined the battle with a numerically superior enemy. The crew of his tank as a part of senior sergeants V.G. Kustov, V.F. Lekomtsev and sergeant P.E. Zelenin, acting from ambush, let the enemy tanks go to the distance of a direct shot, and then hit two “tigers” and one medium tank.


But the tank Shalandina was hit and caught fire. On the burning tank, the Guards crew decided to go to a ram and, on the move, crashing into the side of the "tiger", heroically died ... On the same day, on July 6, the tank was Guards. Lieutenant Ivan Butenko from 25y Guards. a tank brigade near the village of Smorodino unexpectedly ran into eight German tanks that were in ambush. A lieutenant shot down one tank with a cannon shot, but the T34 cannon was disabled by an enemy shell. Then the commander rammed one with a strong frontal armor first, and then another German tank. But his tank was also hit. As a result, the driver was killed and the radio operator was seriously injured. Jumping out of a burning tank, the guard lieutenant snatched a pistol from a German officer, shot him and several other tank crews from the crews of the rammed tanks, and then took the killed officer’s documents and under heavy artillery and mortar fire took out the seriously injured radio operator from the battlefield ...

On July 12, on Prokhorovsky field, an enemy shell smashed the tank and another wounded Captain Skripkin, the commander of the 2 battalion of the 181 tank brigade, seriously. The driver Nikolayev and the radio operator Zyryanov dragged the unconscious officer from the tower and sheltered him in a funnel from the projectile. But on the unarmed crew rolled "Tiger". Nikolaev rushed to his burning tank and in a few moments rushed towards the "Tiger". His words were aired: “Guys! I'm going to ram! Saving the commander! Beat the reptiles! ”“ Tiger ”backed away, wanted to turn around and leave, but did not have time. Nikolaev, having dispersed the burning car, rammed the enemy at full speed. A blow of terrible force shook the earth ...


However, probably the hardest trials befell our infantry. Under stormy artillery fire, under continuous bombardment, reflecting tank attacks, tested in battles, impenetrable infantry passed through the thick of the Battle of Kursk in the direct and figurative sense.

5 July 1943, near the village of Maslova Pristan machine-gun company 229-th Guards. rifle regiment under the command of gu. Lieutenant Vladimir Kolesnikov destroyed 300 enemy soldiers and officers in combat, suppressed 14 machine gun points of the enemy, and the commander personally destroyed the Germans from a machine gun to 200. In an unequal fight, the fighters twice went over to the counterattack until they again took possession of their own line at a height where the enemy had not advanced a single step. Being seriously wounded, Kolesnikov categorically refused to leave the battlefield until the company was firmly entrenched in its positions. And only after that he was sent to the hospital.

K 13 July in the platoon of anti-tank guns 284-th Guards. rifle regiment guv. Senior Lieutenant Pavel Shpetnogo left only 9 fighters. The last patrons fighters shot down 6 tanks and died in an unequal battle. When ammunition ran out, Pavel Shpetny with a bunch of anti-tank grenades rushed under the seventh enemy tank.


14 july guv. Sergeant of the Medical Service 13 of the Guards. sd Maria Borovichenko saved the life of the wounded lieutenant Kornienko. She covered him with her body, while she managed to knock out an enemy tank with a grenade, but a shard hit the medical instructor right in the heart. The Soviet soldiers went up to attack under a hurricane lead rain, burned alive in their tanks and self-propelled guns, fired their guns to the last shell, forcing the very vaunted "tigers" to burn, which were to ensure victory for the Germans. This is how the German officer of the General Staff, Adolf von Kilmanzegg, spoke of Soviet soldiers: “The Russians were a very special opponent. Wherever I fought, I did not meet such a willingness to die. "

"... For your friends"

12 July 1943 of the year according to the Orthodox calendar is the day of memory of the holy apostles Peter and Paul. In 1995, a memorial church of Peter and Paul was erected in the village of Prokhorovka. On its walls on the marble slabs are carved the names of more than seven thousand Soviet soldiers and officers who died in this area. A few kilometers from the temple, at the height of 252,2, where 12 July 1943 was the epicenter of the Prokhorovsky tank battle, on the field, which became a symbol of courage and perseverance of the Soviet soldier, a Victory monument was erected - a white stone belfry designed by sculptor V.? Klykova. Three times per hour, every twenty minutes a bell rings on the belfry in memory of the fallen heroes on the Kulikovo, Borodino and Prokhorovsky fields. Under the golden dome, above which the figure of the intercessor of Russia - the Virgin Mary is set, words in the Church Slavonic language are drawn out in large golden letters from the Bible: “I’m more like sowing love, but who will put his soul for his friends”. Let us remember them in our thoughts ...
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  1. maxvet
    +28
    30 November 2013 08: 18
    “Yes, the enemy was brave. All the more our glory! ”
    nothing more to add!
    1. -41
      30 November 2013 10: 36
      Empty post!

      Desire lights up ???????
      1. maxvet
        +2
        1 December 2013 08: 57
        emotions after reading if you are annoyed hi
        1. +1
          1 December 2013 17: 01
          do not pay attention to Maxim, he is just SERGEY ... hi
    2. ytqnhfk
      +2
      2 December 2013 01: 15
      I wonder who minus the article ??? For what. For the fact that HOMELAND IS DEFENDED THIS? ETERNAL MEMORY THIS "ETERNALLY ALIVE" IN OUR MEMORY!
    3. catapractic
      0
      2 December 2013 21: 21
      quote] “Yes, the enemy was brave. The more our glory! ”[/ Quote] besides strong and able
  2. makarov
    +26
    30 November 2013 08: 25
    Let us remember in the minds of our warriors who died from death the heroes who laid down their lives for the Fatherland.
  3. makarov
    +1
    30 November 2013 08: 25
    Let us remember in the minds of our warriors who died from death the heroes who laid down their lives for the Fatherland.
    1. +3
      1 December 2013 17: 02
      Pasha, the first time I agreed ... drinks
  4. +21
    30 November 2013 08: 34
    I remembered the film "Liberation", which was shot by Yuri Ozerov, the first series was called "Kursk Bulge". As a child, I watched ten times how much technology, what extras, wonderful actors, shooting from the air. Remember "Shoot! You will see how Russian Major Maximov dies!"
    Great battle, we won, we will not forget!
    1. +6
      30 November 2013 21: 17
      Quote: Anatol Klim
      The 1st series was called "Kursk Bulge"

      This series is called "Arc of Fire".
      And this movie epic is cool, from early childhood my favorite film, the first time I saw "Liberation" in years, that way, 1973-74.
      1. +1
        30 November 2013 21: 34
        Quote: anip
        This series is called "Arc of Fire".

        You’re right, I’ve mistaken, already elderly.
        1. +4
          1 December 2013 15: 21
          When was this film last shown on television? On May 9, that's all, but it should be more often and during and instead of any serials about bandits and bl so to speak ... dyah. It is necessary to educate people. So as not to write "empty post".
        2. 0
          1 December 2013 15: 21
          When was this film last shown on television? On May 9, that's all, but it should be more often and during and instead of any serials about bandits and bl so to speak ... dyah. It is necessary to educate people. So as not to write "empty post".
      2. +1
        1 December 2013 16: 37
        Quote: anip
        And this movie epic is cool, from early childhood my favorite film, the first time I saw "Liberation" in years, that way, 1973-74.

        In those years, we were removed from school and led to a club where several schools watched several episodes at the same time instead, and sometimes after classes.

        It was in those years that I re-read everything that was in the local children's library about the war, after which I turned into an adult ...
  5. DZ_98_B
    +24
    30 November 2013 08: 51
    We prepared very carefully for the battle; sniper gunners were searched for. Additionally, anti-aircraft guns were allocated to combat heavy tanks. A lot of sappers did. laying mines almost under the advancing tanks. For the fight against tigers, on the orders of STALIN, SU 152 was created. I read that STALIN collected the directors and designers of the tank plants. He explained that the Germans produced new tanks, our machines could not cope with them. We need a tank capable of fighting the German tigers on equal terms, and gave a month to the deadline. Someone objected that this is unrealistic and there will be no tank of skulls for a month. Stalin replied: it will not be you in a month, but the tank will be !!!!!! After 2 weeks, the SU 152 began testing !!!!!!! I admire our grandfathers and fathers !!!! Thank you for our life !!!!!
    1. +13
      30 November 2013 12: 06
      And I not only admire my grandfathers, but also Stalin, how he lacks
    2. +7
      30 November 2013 19: 37
      Even in the spring of 1942, the Germans already had T-III, IV with an extension of the gun’s barrel, add a walkie-talkie, excellent crew training ... So the Wehrmacht’s technical superiority did not fall from the sky in 1943! Even in 5 TAs, not every tank had a radio link .... how were units controlled?
      1. +13
        30 November 2013 22: 08
        Bagatur
        It would be strange if the Germans did not have technical superiority — all intact industry and resources of almost four hundred million Europe worked conscientiously for them — and our factories evacuated to the East only worked normally for us. And initially Germany excelled us industrially despite our titanic efforts for industrialization. But we even began to catch up with them, and in some ways to overtake them.
        1. +2
          1 December 2013 16: 35
          Hi smile!

          I totally agree! But do not deny the very fact that not only quantity but also technologically superior! And this is another matter ... Why in the USSR does every radio unit have every unit of equipment and at the level of a battalion in the infantry like the Germans have? Failures need to be considered and as impossibility the Soviet country controls its vast resources ... It was professionalism that the German army, combined with technical (not quantitative) superiority, helped to hold out against the weight of the world for so long ...
    3. +4
      30 November 2013 19: 59
      Website vspomniv.ru
      Briefly: SU 152 (Shakssi KV): assignment in December 1942, prototype - 25 days later, in February the first production vehicles, production was discontinued by the end of autumn (according to various estimates, 600-700 were produced), from the end of autumn the transition to ISU 152 (IP chassis).
  6. +4
    30 November 2013 09: 04
    Why aren't the photos signed?
    When were made, in which place, who is captured?
    One cannot relate to historical photographs like this.
  7. DZ_98_B
    +23
    30 November 2013 09: 07
    On Kursk, Wittman shot down not 30 tanks, here you really bent, but 5 or 6, It seems you yourself were wounded. And the fire ram of the mechanic driver NIKOLAEV, amazed another fascist, Otto Karius. He described it in a book, tigers in the mud. The tiger is certainly a very formidable car. And how hard it was for our soldiers to destroy him. Thank you !!!!
    1. +11
      30 November 2013 10: 16
      Our warriors were not kamikaze. In the summaries of losses for "tigers" and "panthers" the bulk of the losses related to damage to the chassis. Engineering support in the Battle of Kursk, coupled with the courage of our soldiers, made these very formidable tanks ordinary. If they did break through, then yes, “not sparing their belly!” Of course, this is only part of the measures to combat heavy armored vehicles.
      A low bow to the victors, and those who gave their lives for the Victory.
      1. +3
        30 November 2013 10: 22
        This I remember from some forum about Vitman. He specialized more in "Shermans". It is clear that he did not choose the enemy, but somehow I remembered.
    2. +13
      30 November 2013 12: 23
      8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...
      But this is more like German propaganda during the war. am
      1. +3
        30 November 2013 23: 00
        yes no, unfortunately this is a historical fact. Only here it is not indicated which tanks were against him. they were light tanks and their guns did not penetrate the armor of this monster. But at the same time, of course, it would not be bad to add how in the end everything for this "ace" ended. And here it is not. but I would like to.
        1. Alex 241
          +2
          30 November 2013 23: 05
          Franz Staudegger survived the war and died on March 16, 1991 in Frankfurt.
          1. +6
            1 December 2013 16: 58
            I remember how in 1982, in my ZIL bastard in uniform with a crutch, he rushed .... really OH ??? Frankfurt really was GDRovsky, not western ...
        2. +1
          2 December 2013 13: 16
          Let's just imagine. The tiger is a heavy slow tank, the speed of the turret leaves much to be desired. Armor yes excellent !!! But frontal. Caterpillars are open, stern armor is weak. Against him, the T-34 as much as 50 pieces !!! It’s not possible to physically keep track of so many enemy vehicles !!! Yes, they couldn’t pierce it in the forehead, but the sides and stern ?? What Any desperate could not call in from the side ?? And about the persecution: If they couldn’t harm him, then at least they would try to shoot down the tracks to immobilize them, because I think all this is doubtful ..... But this is my opinion!
    3. +13
      30 November 2013 19: 41
      He also noted the author's use of fabulous German memoirs. He did not even bother to look at the composition of the army of Rotmistrov. His Wittmans and other aces burned one thirty-four. And they never heard of the T-70.
      So the author should work on the analysis and work.
    4. +1
      30 November 2013 20: 40
      Quote: DZ_98_B
      The tiger is of course a very formidable car. And how hard it was for our soldiers to destroy him. Thank you !!!!

      But the author writes that the "Tiger" was destroyed even by the fire of the Il-2 attack aircraft. As I read to this point, I did not read further. My grandfather was at the Kursk Bulge, he was telling ...
      1. +5
        30 November 2013 21: 43
        Website battlefield.ru
        The bomb charging of the IL-2 included up to 192 PTAB-2,5-1,5 aerial bombs in 4-x small bombs cassettes (48 pieces each) or up to 220 pieces when they were rationally placed in bulk in 4-x bomb racks.
        The weight of this bomb is 1,5 kg
        Or enter in the search engine PTAB and ...
        1. 0
          4 December 2013 19: 54
          The Germans quickly found a solution against the PTABs. Parking under the trees, welding of bed nets over appliances, etc. The main thing is that the fuse should fire before it touches the armor. Since the fall of 1943, if I do not confuse, this has become widespread.
      2. mvg
        0
        2 December 2013 13: 48
        shortly before the beginning of the Kursk, they adopted 1.5 - 2.5 kg ATM, cumulative bombs ... they were "loaded" into the IL-2 by 40 pieces, the upper armor even for a tiger, even for someone with a maximum of 20-30 mm, over MTO and that less ... 4-6 attack aircraft simply destroyed a column of 5-10 tanks on the march. After several days of use, it was forbidden to move in the column during the day. Just like at 45 in the afternoon the Germans did not go AT ALL, since the superiority of the allies in the air was 24 to 1. There is such an article on the site. attack aircraft, destroyed many .. hundreds of armored vehicles. and the tiger is indeed a formidable tank. I believe that Wittmann could have knocked out 30 or more. I think that the Ferdinands' settlements have an even higher score.
    5. +13
      30 November 2013 22: 16
      DZ_98_B
      By the way, the reliability of their huge accounts of our tanks allegedly destroyed is very clearly visible on the example of the same Carius. This guy on a blue eye claims that he twice destroyed Tiger 1 alone at the ISP CCI (2 tanks in the state). :)) Moreover, stepping on them ... each time spending half an hour to an hour to destroy a tank regiment ... and once he destroyed two more tanks than the state should put into the regiment - 20 IS 22 :))) And he all they were conceived, awarded with crosses. leaves and other rubbish ... :)))

      The ambivalent feeling for his book is that the man is clearly fighting, writes interestingly ... but sometimes he lies so that his jacket wraps up ... :))) because it is difficult to understand where he writes the truth and where he lies like a mare, praising himself, invincible ... :))))
  8. Ingvar51
    +25
    30 November 2013 10: 03
    On July 5, near Maslova Pristan, at the junction with the 229th Guards Regiment, my father took the first battle, the joint of the 229th and 224th Guards regiments. He was 16 years old. The commander of the 224th Guards Regiment, Major Ulasovets. In 1980 we went to the place of the battle of my father, everything, of course, changed, from the trenches there were barely noticeable grooves, but my father remembered every bend.
    1. 0
      30 November 2013 15: 06
      Please tell me the number of the division, which included the 229th Guards Rifle Regiment?
      1. Ingvar51
        +1
        30 November 2013 17: 08
        72 Guards Division, 7th Guards Army Shumilova
      2. Ingvar51
        +1
        30 November 2013 17: 08
        72 Guards Division, 7th Guards Army Shumilova
        1. +3
          30 November 2013 20: 56
          Shumilov’s army played an important role in halting the offensive of the Kempf operational group (parts of which escaped into the operational area near the village of Rzhavets) on 12.07. counterattacks on the flank (south of the village of Razumnoe).
          Chained on the flanks of the enemy, he could not free up the forces for a breakthrough to Prokhorovka, and after that he slammed 48 SK in the village of Shakhovo in a timely manner.
  9. Ingvar51
    +4
    30 November 2013 10: 03
    On July 5, near Maslova Pristan, at the junction with the 229th Guards Regiment, my father took the first battle, the joint of the 229th and 224th Guards regiments. He was 16 years old. The commander of the 224th Guards Regiment, Major Ulasovets. In 1980 we went to the place of the battle of my father, everything, of course, changed, from the trenches there were barely noticeable grooves, but my father remembered every bend.
  10. +28
    30 November 2013 10: 39
    8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...
    Not a single serious study (for example, the book by Gregory L. Mattson "The History of the 2nd SS Panzer Division" Das Reich ") devoted to the combat path of the 2nd Panzer Division" Das Reich "does not even mention Franz Staudegger in passing. also does not appear The story is invented, from beginning to end.
    1. 0
      30 November 2013 23: 08
      The fight is famous. In the Soviet book, I’m sorry I don’t remember the name, the memory of the girl (((((the battle under the Prokhorovka and the whole Kursk battle was described in detail and this episode, in particular. There against this monster go the usual T-34, not T-34-85 Therefore, alas, ah. And the amers have similar episodes, they have 33 Shermans at a time the German tiger chopped up.
      But this is not the main thing, but who won. Although there were serious miscalculations. And people feel sorry. BUT Soviet troops stood and won. And this is the MAIN THING !!!!
      1. +13
        30 November 2013 23: 37
        Quote: I am
        There, against this monster, embody the usual T-34, and not the T-34-85.

        The 85s were not there then. And this episode was analyzed in detail. This cupcake, he writes, did not go into battle due to a tank malfunction request , but when he found out that T-34s were approaching Teterevino, he, suddenly, took and repaired the tank, and to such an extent that he already chased after them when they retreated. Incidentally, a very keen-sighted partaigenosse, everyone, including the Germans, write about dry weather and clouds of dust, he managed to see! and shoot! In general, either he did not see, and fired into the dust, then where did he see 17 killed? Yes, and 34 would not have seen very much that they were being killed and would have come close and, accordingly, his Far Eastern relative would have come to the "Tiger". Or, he invented everything, thanks to magazines, like our Fedorov, after the war, when from old age sclerosis is braided for insanity.
        And about amers
        “We are used to an adversary such as the Russians; we were struck by the contrast. Throughout the war, I never saw the soldiers scatter so that only their heels sparkled, although, essentially, nothing much happened ... After all, five Russians were more dangerous than thirty Americans. ”
        Otto Karius "Tigers" in the mud "is also post-war mumaras
  11. +20
    30 November 2013 10: 50
    "Tigers" are burning

    July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock down 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- why not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!
    1. Reyngard
      -14
      30 November 2013 14: 48
      Well, you sit in the Tiger and feel the advantage!
      1. +7
        30 November 2013 22: 22
        Reyngard
        In order to lie like that, you don’t have to get into the tank - you need to dig deep into your nose and slave a chemical pencil - and voila - you can write 30, you can 50, and 500 is not much more difficult to write ... do you not know about it - you have every information that you voiced here in approximately the same way extracted ... :))) and equally reliable ... :)))
  12. +3
    30 November 2013 10: 50
    "Tigers" are burning

    July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock down 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- why not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!
    1. Reyngard
      -8
      30 November 2013 14: 46
      The tigers were stronger than the T-34, taken in quantity.
      1. +22
        30 November 2013 19: 44
        How tired of these stupid comparisons of "Tiger" and T-34! It's like comparing a Kamaz with a Gazelle. Cars of completely different classes.
        Want to compare "Tiger"? Compare it with IS. Want to compare the T-34? Compare with Pz-IV. There is nothing to compare "Panther" with at all - the Germans declared it as average, but the weight of the vehicle was more than that of our heavy IS with the best armament and reservation scheme.
        I believe in the "hunting stories" of Karius and other comrades as in the fables of grandmothers at the entrance.
        1. +11
          30 November 2013 22: 25
          Jager
          Do not insult our grandmothers by comparing them with caries and hartans - firstly, grandmothers are much more truthful, and secondly, they try, so to speak, for the love of art, disinterestedly, and these handsome men earned fame, pieces of iron on their chests and other benefits ... :)))
      2. +4
        30 November 2013 23: 09
        The T-34 had almost no chance against them. The large distance of the aimed shot at the tiger did not allow the t-34 to come close. And only t-34-85 had real chances to endure tigers.
        1. +11
          1 December 2013 00: 27
          Quote: I am
          The T-34 had almost no chance against them. The large distance of the aimed shot at the tiger did not give the t-34

          That's the trick, he had. The technology is as follows: one 34 is drawn, distracting the Germans at the maximum range, two come in from the flanks and yo ... (the moderators will not let them through) And later, five of us went, but this is not their job. 80% of the tanks were cut down by anti-tank equipment, what we have, what they have. And 34-k's main task is, well, they will roll along the tails of the "backlashes", drive the infantry on the march in the rear, "rob the cows."
          ZY My grandfather was a mortarman in the Arctic, since he took me with him, in 72, to a meeting of veterans. There were strong old men, there I was in tanks and fell in love (they told me both how tigers and how they frolicked in the rear. My grandfather only remembered one phrase, "If I was told by radio that reconnaissance was fighting a few kilometers ahead, I do not care that German refugees are walking along the road, queuing over their heads and forward. "And because of this he became a mechanical engineer. And after the institute he met (in the direction) one of the last mechanic drivers of the T-34, the head of the RMM Saburov. This guy who found the end of the war , over 34, could gnaw his throat. He said that he left the regiment along with his last 34th, on which he was an instructor. I believe him, because for 3 years, he has never deceived me, a young specialist. ...
          1. +6
            1 December 2013 00: 40
            The F-34 is a good cannon, but it was, after all, that Pegov on a T-70 of 45mm two "Panthers" flunked, they did not have time to beep.
        2. +5
          1 December 2013 18: 40
          Lapul, read the first battle of our T-34s with the Royal Tigers. What do you have to notice there, the old 34s scored. The main thing is not only performance characteristics, but the ability to fight. It is the Americans of Abrams that silver carp were blinded in the hope of deserted even landscapes, and another life and the enemy can meet 200 meters from around the corner.
          1. Amfitsion
            0
            1 December 2013 18: 42
            Since when did the T-34-85, which only a few months have entered the army en masse, became the "old thirty-four"?
            1. +2
              3 December 2013 00: 49
              Oskin had 34-85, "The Day of Kotoboy" is described in some detail, in Pasholok http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/209182.html?thread=683806&mode=reply.
      3. vardex
        +2
        2 December 2013 13: 50
        Tiger heavy tank 57 tons
        T-34-76 medium tank 28 tons
        so what is there to compare. comparable Lada with KAMAZ .....
    2. +4
      1 December 2013 15: 47
      In the seventies, my father worked at the mine in the same brigade with the former tanker, he was all charred. So this tanker took part in the Prokhorov battle, he told about a dozen of our wrecked German tanks. By the way, Zhukov wanted for that victory To give Rotmistrov to court for the fact that he was incapable of burning an entire army., Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate Tiger’s frontal armor from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German shot through IS from a distance of 1600 meters ,, Tigrophobia ,, didn’t appear from scratch. The situation changed with the Germans losing Manganese and Nikopol, the quality of armor deteriorated, the IS-2 began to beat the Tiger from a distance of 2000 meters, and thirty fours got chances, especially with 85 mm guns. Vatutin was still unlucky in the sense that the Germans who fought against his front were commanded by Manstein, the best German field marshal, who after Stalingrad saved the southern flank of the German army from even more deafening defeat.
      1. -13
        1 December 2013 16: 18
        And Vatutin was not lucky in the sense that the Germans who fought against his front were commanded by Manstein, the best German field marshal, who after Stalingrad saved the southern flank of the German army from even more deafening defeat.

        Hmm ... and not only Vatutin Tagotsa from the German general could not ... But UTB so since 1914 .... After the Napoleonic wars something happened ... Russia did not win a single war convincingly ... Toglko one-Rusko -Turkish 1877-1878 and there was a lot of suffering ...
        1. Shuriken
          +7
          1 December 2013 18: 20
          Quote: bagatura
          ..Russia not a single war convincingly won.

          You would have thought, comrade Bulgarian, that you are writing. At all times, completely non-papuans came to us with a sword, that Napoleon, that the Reichswehr, I generally keep quiet about the Wehrmacht, the best armies in the world! How can you win "convincingly" here?
          1. -4
            1 December 2013 22: 03
            After the Napoleonic Wars I say ... If this is not so, then say what happened on the eastern (Krim) war, Rusko-Japanese .. World War I ...
        2. +5
          1 December 2013 18: 22
          It’s not necessary to generalize so: the Russian generals looked pretty decent in the First World War and if they had the same strong rear as the Red Army in the Second World War, the Russian army would have been to Berlin 30 years earlier, and the Russian Bosphorus and Dardanelles garrisons would have stood. Comrade Stalin understood this very well, so parts of the NKVD stood all war in all major cities. And as for Manstein, it seems to me that this was a truly brilliant general. It’s enough to say that France was defeated according to the plan proposed by him .Therefore, the French and English generals also could not compete with the German, and ours in the end could. You can read the Goebels diary, there is a moment in which Hitler recognized that the German generals are much lower than the Soviet ones in their level.
        3. Kolovrat77
          +11
          1 December 2013 18: 45
          Quote: bagatura
          ..Olzhko alone-Rusko-Turkish 1877-1878 and there was more suffering ...


          Here I agree with you in vain, in vain, in vain the Bulgarian fields are watered with Russian blood. It was necessary that the Turks would give you moles for the mind (for one thing there would be a reason to whine about genocide in Washington and ask for money "for life") Not one do you hear, not one Russian soldier is not worth the NATO-Hitler-Kaiser bedding.

          Quote: bagatura
          .Russia no war convincingly won


          Yes, you think so, that I won’t persuade you, I don’t think it is necessary to throw beads in front of the pigs, I will say one thing Russia decides the fate of the world, and you sit on the porch of the geyropov and ask the Germans for money so as not to die.
        4. typhoon7
          +8
          1 December 2013 18: 59
          You know Bagatur on Shipka, it was hard for Russian soldiers in general, but in the end there was a victory over Turkey. Your ancestors were more grateful to you.
          1. 0
            1 December 2013 22: 06
            And not only I am also grateful!
      2. +6
        1 December 2013 16: 40
        Quote: Motors1991
        Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate the frontal armor of the Tiger from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German pierced IS from a distance of 1600 meters,

        There were no IS-2s on Kursk! In 1944, in the fall they went only to the troops. What is this tiger-1?
        And there were not so many of these tigers: 1354 pcs. on all fronts of Germany. A good gun with an excellent sight on a well-armored but clumsy chassis.
        1. Amfitsion
          0
          1 December 2013 19: 06
          You probably wanted to say from the end of the 43rd, not the 44th?
          The Tiger-1 has a beautifully agile "chassis, on the spot, with its hull, it turned, God forbid, every medium tank ...
          1. 0
            4 December 2013 20: 44
            The tiger weighed more than 56 tons, a gasoline engine of 700 hp, what agility is there, despite the theoretical perfection of the transmission. By the way, which is by no means a model of reliability.
        2. +1
          1 December 2013 19: 27
          And there were not so many of these tigers: 1354 pcs. on all fronts of Germany.

          Never in the history of the 2nd World Wehrmacht had more than 400 PzKpfw VI "Tiger" at one time on all fronts! Both independently and together with PzKpfw VI Ausf. B "Tiger II". Machines were very expensive and not technologically advanced. All engine and transmission parts were numbered, that is, they fit ONLY to a particular machine. The total number of "Tigers" on July 5, 1943 was to be the number 146. But in reality there were a little less. The Panthers were only in Army Group South in the 10th Tank Brigade in the 51st and 52nd Tank Battalions (204 vehicles in total). So the total number of these vehicles near Kursk was ... 7,6% of the number of all tanks and self-propelled guns of the Wehrmacht. Of course they did not make the weather.
          1. 0
            1 December 2013 19: 35
            Do you know that at one time on ALL fronts of the Eastern Front (i.e. in the USSR) the Luftwaffe had 358 fighters of all types? (Up to the end of the war)
            1. Alex 241
              +2
              1 December 2013 19: 48
              Hi Denis, I don’t remember the exact number, but in my opinion a little more than 700.
              1. +1
                1 December 2013 19: 51
                Hi Sasha. I have seen this figure among many historians.
              2. +3
                1 December 2013 20: 01
                Quote: Alex 241


                hi Sasha. There is such data.
                The presence of Luftwaffe fighters on the Eastern Front
                1943 year
                March - 548
                June - 549
                December - 525
                1944 year
                March - 513
                June - 504
                September - 495
                December - 490
                In general, there are a lot of interesting statistics here ..
                http://fictionbook.ru/author/parshev_andreyi_petrovich/para_bellum/read_online.h
                tml? page = 51
                1. Alex 241
                  +1
                  1 December 2013 20: 05
                  Hi Seryozha, thanks, I’ll look now.
          2. 0
            2 December 2013 21: 39
            In addition, quite a few cars did not take part in the battle due to a malfunction. Tigers often broke, a lot of weight made itself felt.
          3. Amfitsion
            0
            3 December 2013 18: 09
            Not quite true about the figure of 400, although the course of reasoning is correct ...
            According to the panzerlage of June 15, 1944, there were 571 Tiger-1s on all fronts.
            http://russiainwar.forum24.ru/?1-6-0-00000049-000-0-0-1333466596
          4. 0
            4 December 2013 20: 46
            Quote: zennon
            So the total number of these vehicles near Kursk was ... 7,6% of the total number of all tanks and self-propelled guns of the Wehrmacht. Of course, they did not make the weather.

            Absolutely accurate definition! good
        3. +1
          1 December 2013 19: 57
          I identified the problem, the IS-2 with its 122-mm cannon could penetrate the Tiger-1 from a distance of 600-700 meters, and the T-34 with its 76-mm cannon did not take the Tiger either in the forehead or on board from any distance, but all these tales, invented by political officers, that they sent a couple of tanks to seed, and the rest left the Germans from the flank, leave them to political officers. The main losses of the Tigers were from heavy artillery, mines, bombs, and for technical reasons. And our tanks were advised to go around them where the long-barreled gun doesn’t even reach the German rear, where no Tiger can catch up with them, and if it comes across a single instance, then there will always be a more powerful gun on it, which, if it doesn’t penetrate the armor, will simply tear off the tower. we, the same Germans, when at the beginning of the war faced KV.
          1. +5
            1 December 2013 20: 15
            Quote: Motors1991
            , and all these tales invented by political instructors,

            Political instructors by political instructors, but here is a specific document:
            "Note by the Military Council of the armored and mechanized forces of the Red Army on the results of the test of the German T-VI tank
            May 4, 1943 Top Secret ... To Comrade Stalin

            Dokladyvy: on the test results of the firing of the German T-VI heavy tank. In the period from April 24 to April 30 s / g. At the GBTU KA research tank test site, tests were carried out on shelling a German T-VI tank from artillery systems that are in service with the Red Army, and 88-mm cannon of the T-VI tank was fired at the combat corps of the T-34 and KV- tanks 1.

            T-VI tank shelling results

            Side, rear and turret armor of a tank 82 mm thick breaks through (when a projectile meets armor at a right angle):
            1. Caliber shells of 45 mm anti-tank gun sample of 1942 from a distance of 350 meters.
            2. Submunition shells of a 45 mm tank gun of a sample of 1937 from a distance of 200 meters.
            3. A continuous armor-piercing projectile of 57 mm anti-tank gun ZIS-2 from a distance of 1000 meters.
            4. An armor-piercing shell of an 85 mm anti-aircraft gun from a distance of 1500 meters.
            5. Armor-piercing (solid) shell of an English 57 mm tank gun from a distance of 600 meters.
            6. Armor-piercing (solid) shell of an English anti-tank 57 mm gun from a distance of 1000 meters.
            7. An armor-piercing (solid) shell of 75 mm of an American tank gun of 75 mm from a distance of 600 meters.
            8. Frontal armor T-VI with a thickness of 100 mm is pierced by an armor-piercing shell of 85 mm anti-aircraft gun from a distance of 1000 meters.

            Shelling 82 mm of the side armor of the T-VI tank from a 76 mm F-34 tank gun from a distance of 200 meters showed that the armor-piercing shells of this gun are weak and, when they meet the tank’s armor, they are destroyed without penetrating the armor. 76 mm submunitions also do not penetrate 100 mm of the frontal armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of 500 meters.
            The anti-tank rifles in service with the Red Army do not penetrate the armor of the T-VI tank. An experienced anti-tank gun of the Blum system pierces the [82] mm armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of 100 meters at an initial bullet speed of 1500 m / s.

          2. +3
            1 December 2013 20: 16
            The 88 mm tank gun mounted on the T-VI tank pierces the armor of our tanks from a distance with an armor-piercing shell:
            1. The most durable part of the T-34 tank’s hull is a nasal beam (cast, 140 mm thick), as well as frontal and tower armor from 1500 meters.
            2. The most durable frontal part of the hull of the KV-1 tank with a thickness of 105 mm (75 mm main armor + 30 mm shield) with 1500 meters.
            To provide tank and mechanized formations with means of combating T-VI tanks, I forgive you:
            1. To oblige the Narkomtankoprom (i.e. Zaltsman) to install 34 mm caliber guns (ZIS-57) on T-4 tanks at the rate of 2-3 tanks with a 57 mm gun for every ten tanks. At the same time, oblige the People’s Commissariat of Ammunition and GAU KA to set up production of 57 mm high-explosive fragmentation.
            2. To instruct the People’s Commissariat of Ammunition and GAU KA urgently to work out: a) an armor-piercing (solid) shell for the 76 mm F-34 tank gun, capable of penetrating the 82-mm side armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of at least 600 meters .; b) a caliber projectile for an F-76 tank 34 mm gun, capable of penetrating the frontal 100 mm armor of a T-VI tank from a distance of 500 meters.

            3. To oblige the Narkomtankoprom (t. Zaltsman) to manufacture, before June 1, 1943, on the basis of the chassis of the T-70 tank, three samples of self-propelled guns SU-57, armed with a 57 mm cannon. Test the specified GBTU KA samples within a ten-day period and report the results to the GOKO no later than June 10, 1943.
            4. To make a self-propelled gun armed with a 1 mm cannon of the 152 model by June 122, based on the SU-1931, and to produce such self-propelled guns on a par with the SU-152.
            5. Indicate Comrade It’s urgent for Grabin to quickly produce a powerful tank gun of 100 mm caliber for the IS tank, which is capable of penetrating 120-130 mm armor from a distance of 2000 meters.
            6. To oblige the People’s Commissariat of Armaments, together with the GAU KA, to finish testing the prototype of the Blum anti-tank gun as soon as possible in order to decide on the introduction of the Blum gun into the Red Army. "
            1. Alex 241
              +4
              1 December 2013 20: 40
              KURSK ARC. Great War.
            2. +2
              1 December 2013 21: 25
              And what did I write wrong? That the 76-ml tank gun did not take the Tiger either in the forehead or onboard. Once again I repeat the problem with the Tigers began to be solved after the liberation of Manganese and Nikopol by our troops, the Reich lost alloying additives in armor steel. Why Hitler and ordered to hold on to Kryvbas to the last possible opportunity, and when he in response offered to leave Manganese in order to reduce the front line, Hitler looked at Manstein and said sadly: ,, Unfortunately my generals do not understand anything in the economy ,,
              1. +3
                1 December 2013 21: 43
                Meinstein, in my opinion, was the smartest military leader (by the way, do you want to accuse me of sympathizing with the Nazis? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi). An outstanding commander! You will argue, emotions aside
                1. +2
                  1 December 2013 21: 48
                  Quote: Den 11
                  Meinstein, in my opinion, was the smartest military leader (by the way, do you want to accuse me of sympathy for the Nazis? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi).


                  There is no need here to praise and even more so propagandize Nazi criminals on the military-patriotic website. negative Minus.
                  1. +2
                    1 December 2013 21: 56
                    Minus-so-minus. This is personally mine. I do not do propaganda!
                    1. +2
                      1 December 2013 21: 59
                      Quote: Den 11
                      Minus-so-minus. This is personally mine. I do not do propaganda!


                      Only no offense, you wrote in categorical form и clearly with sympathy to the general of the Nazi army. This caused my irritation. You can write too differently and in neutral form, isn’t that so ?!
                      1. +1
                        1 December 2013 22: 06
                        I agree. I went too far ...
                    2. Lesnik
                      +1
                      2 December 2013 01: 52
                      You know, you can talk a lot about what they were __ endo__y. But damn G. Guderian's mind and good luck cannot be taken away from this.
                2. bask
                  +4
                  1 December 2013 21: 59
                  Quote: Den 11
                  there? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi)

                  THEwhen they were smashed, or when they were captured as Friedrich Wilhelm von Paulus, they suddenly all ceased to be the nation of honor ...
                  By the way, DEN, Paulus, was no less talented than Manstein.
                  But still was defeatedsimple Russim MAN Chuikov.V.I.
                  1. +1
                    1 December 2013 22: 09
                    Yes, I agree, Paulus is a kind of military leader. For me so --- Is there a time sheet? Everything, the descendants will not curse
                3. +1
                  1 December 2013 22: 05
                  Day 11
                  Dan, great! The fact that Manstein is a talented military leader, no one disputes ...... I must admit, I do not care if he was a convinced Nazi ... well, he did it himself, he brought the day when we were all destroyed - as he could, and put as much effort as much as he could .... and, by the way, sometimes he puts it in his memoirs so ... that he’s even ashamed for him .... he’s lying more than ours ... much more .... therefore, he’s a talented person, but very controversial ... even kill me ... :)))) Yes, and our prisoners in 41 in the army, destroyed more of his subordinates than were sent for slow destruction in Vaterland ... do you think we should relate to this comrade?
                  You see, you can admire the fighting qualities of a serial killer who with his bare hands in an honest (he attacked. Man resisted) very professionally kills people ... and then rapes them and eats ... will you be so unique? The better is Manstein, the superprofession, whom ours beat more than once at the end of the war, whose troops destroyed the prisoners and the civilians are cleaner than the SS men? .... yes, you can pay tribute to his professionalism ... but then you must pay tribute to cannibalism ... such business ....
                  1. Lesnik
                    0
                    2 December 2013 01: 59
                    I wonder who except us remembers them? Especially in Germany? Maybe Big Mac will be remembered, by no means Bismarck or Manstein or von Runstedt laughing
          3. typhoon7
            +1
            3 December 2013 18: 58
            During the African War, the American ,, Sherman ,, collided with the royal tiger. The American managed to shoot first in the forehead, fell under the gun. Surprisingly, the Germans left the car. This only surviving royal tiger is still kept in America. From a tank strike, either the gun jammed, or the tower. Now imagine in place of this whipping boy ,, Sherman ,, IS-2. Yes, he would have moved his tower with his 120 mm shell, everything inside him would have turned into a mess. I have long read in print sources that the German tankers were not recommended to engage in open battle with the IS-2. It is terrible how our descendants will think about the war and the military equipment of that war, if now they write on the forum that without the West we would lose the war. I would like to note that up to 85 percent of the most selected German divisions were grind by the Soviet Union, and only a little more than 15, all the rest combined. I think these figures put everything in its place and just do not say that they took in quantity, the country was bloodless.
            1. Amfitsion
              0
              3 December 2013 19: 13
              The Royal Tigers in Africa ... Excuse me, are you completely I.D.O.T.? ?
        4. +2
          3 December 2013 02: 31
          Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate the frontal armor of the Tiger from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German pierced IS from a distance of 1600 meters,
          Ept, it seems the other way around, were cursing with Kars, IS-2s started firing from 2 km away and were taken out when hit. Incidentally, especially for Kars. I clearly observed the contours of the output traffic lights at the station from the stage, not with the naked eye, at a distance of 3,5 km (tracked by pickets), upon reaching the station, I looked at the weather forecast, cloud cover, drizzle, visibility 4km. smile
    3. +5
      1 December 2013 17: 52
      Quote: datur
      "Tigers" are burning

      July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- Th not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!

      ammunition 92 shots

      http://pro-tank.ru/bronetehnika-germany/tyagelie-tanki/147-t-6h-tigr?start=1

      but still the machine gunner hans the gun
    4. Amfitsion
      -1
      1 December 2013 18: 23
      Yeah, yes, yes, "nonsense, liberents, the State Department" swamp ".... Nothing in this" patriotic "rotten stuff changes ....
      Any "patriotic fool" can be verified by deeds. Let's try?
      If we compare the date, place and time of the event, it seems that they were tanks of the 26th Tank Brigade of the 2nd Tank Corps. The question is: who will have enough zeal in DEFINITION to prove patriotism, and to cite the evidence (ZhBD, dispatches, reports, reports) of this brigade about that day of the battle? Well, as a consequence, it goes without saying that the REAL losses of our tankers should be made public, and the "liberals, detractors and Goebbels's liars" should be put to shame? I will give you a hint - the losses are less than stated by Staudeger
      WELL??
      1. +1
        2 December 2013 19: 34
        Patriotism is not proved by the number of pieces of paper provided ..... Do you dispute the fact of the USSR’s victory at Kursk or a whole in the war7 What other proof do you need? Or just a desire to touch? No one disputes the fact of the huge losses of the Soviet troops in the battle, no one denies the fact that the vast majority of our tanks were not even T-34s, but T-70s, light tanks, and naturally they could not stack T-6 Tigers in packs. The main task was completed! The Germans stopped, ....... then they were forced to retreat. and already before the end of the war ....., Watch the movie "The Great War" everything is laid out on the shelves, all the milestones of the war ........
      2. The comment was deleted.
  13. +5
    30 November 2013 11: 38
    By this time, the German tank ace Untersturmfuhrer SS division Leibstandart, Michael Wittmann, who had resettled by this time, destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 anti-tank guns during the Battle of Kursk, which made up 20% of the 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns that he had destroyed during the war. Exactly battalion Wittmann repelled the attack of the 181st Soviet tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...

    Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination. a tank company consisting of heavy Tiger tanks includes 14 vehicles - three platoons of 4 tanks each plus 2 in a command platoon.
    181st Tank Brigade - 24 medium T-34 tanks and 20 light T-70s.
    Directly under Prokhorovka, in this battle, SS Vich Brigadeführer had 60 tanks and a tank company of heavy tanks, totaling 74, of which 14 were heavy.
    In addition to the 181st, we also have the 32nd - 64 T-34 medium tanks.
    1. 0
      30 November 2013 19: 41
      It seems every German traveled to Tischr ... It’s only 3 battalions of the heaviest tank-100 pike, 10 brigat-200 Panthers (they didn’t influence the course of the battle, the engines themselves sunbathed for imperfection), all the rest is T III III IV
      1. +13
        1 December 2013 02: 02
        Quote: bagatura
        Every German seems to be traveling to Tischr ... Really, only 3 battalions of heavy tank-100 pikes

        Do not drive, a hero. Aht-komma-aht with Zeiss optics under good armor, really not a joke, from afar, most of all, only we, the Russians, have fun, wall to wall, direct contact, and there neither caliber nor optics pianoforte, until you aim snipers, you rake ten times the shafts, nine of them posthumously. There it was like that.
        It’s not enough to kill a Russian soldier, he also needs to be knocked down
        Otto, damn it, background, his mother, Bismarck, however drinks
        1. +2
          1 December 2013 16: 12
          "Rather killed than killed!" Frederick the Great

          Russian skoldat-eternal glory! He didn’t want to say that he was not worthy of victory ... He won, despite the miscalculations of Stavka, Vatutin, Stalin himself and bad technology ..
          1. +4
            1 December 2013 16: 17
            Hello Orthodox! How do you live there in the EU? Tell our Ukrainian friends
    2. 0
      1 December 2013 19: 37
      Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination.

      Wittman Tigers:
      July 5, 1943 - Kursk, Tiger No. 13 (31), commander of the 3rd platoon, 13th company, 1st regiment 1 LSSAH.
      November 1943 - Tiger No. S21. Used by Wittmann during the Soviet fall offensive of 1943 (exact date unknown).
      June 6, 1944 - Normandy, Tiger No. 205. Commander of the 2nd company sSSPz.Abt. 101.
      June 13, 1944 - Villers-Bocage (Normandy), Tiger No. 222. Whitman moved to him at the last minute due to engine failure on his Tiger No. 205.
      August 8, 1944 - Normandy, Tiger No. 007. The Last Whitman Tiger. He died in him.
      1. +1
        1 December 2013 19: 48
        Have you heard about this Hans? Perhaps it will be more serious than Vitman. Kurt Knispel. Read about him. In the newsreel he "lit up"
        1. +2
          1 December 2013 21: 52
          Quote: Den 11
          Have you heard about this Hans? Perhaps it will be more serious than Vitman. Kurt Knispel. Read about him. In the newsreel he "lit up"

          Yes, I heard. The most interesting thing is that he is a gunman-sergeant. I think that a fair part of the attributed victories is a linden. For example, Wittman counted 14 tanks near Kharkov, but forgot to clarify that these vehicles were dismantled, they were stationed on TO. In addition, we don’t know and our tank crews. For example, Lieutenant Dmitry Lavrinenko (fought on the T-34 tank, served in the 4th tank brigade) - destroyed 52 tanks and assault guns.
          1. 0
            1 December 2013 22: 03
            Don’t leave the branch. It’s nice to talk to the person in the topic. Just how much did he manage to fight? Surely he would have grown to an excellent divisional!
            1. Alex 241
              +3
              1 December 2013 22: 19
              Quote: Den 11
              Only how much did he manage to fight? Surely, he would have grown to an excellent divisional commander!
              From October 14 to December 18, 41 years.
              1. +3
                1 December 2013 23: 30
                From October 14 to December 18, 41 years.

                Yes, he died near Volokolamsk. He fought with Katukov. Here he grew up! From the colonel to the marshal of armored forces. I knew his wife. Even once, quite by accident, was in her house on Leningradsky Prospekt. Well, for example, Art. Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov (KV tank, 1st Panzer Division) - 22 tanks. The famous Voyskovitsky battle. His company of 5 tanks destroyed 43 Wehrmacht tanks. Unfortunately, on September 15, the 41st was seriously wounded. In fact, it didn’t fight until the end of the war.
                1. Alex 241
                  +2
                  1 December 2013 23: 37
                  ................................................
                  1. Alex 241
                    +2
                    1 December 2013 23: 50
                    It happened so. In July 1942, due to a fuel system malfunction, Lieutenant Konovalov’s car lagged behind his brigade. The maximum that the comrades could help the tank crews was to single out the most experienced repairman of the brigade of equipment-lieutenant Serebryakov. The crew on their own restored a well-disguised tank when two German armored personnel carriers appeared on the road, on which the crew immediately opened fire, knocking out one and taking the other to flight. Following the armored vehicles a marching tank column of 75 tanks appeared. Having let the enemy down to a distance of 500 meters, the HF crew hit four tanks with direct fire, forcing the convoy to turn around and retreat for regrouping. The Germans probably assumed that they were opposed by great forces, and not the only immobilized Soviet tank. After some time, the Nazis again went on the attack with a deployed formation, but this cost them six more vehicles. It should be noted that the German medium tank T-III was inferior in most respects to the Soviet heavy tank KV-1. The pride armor of Soviet tank building was weakly vulnerable to German tank guns at long and medium distances, while the KV-1 gun easily penetrated even the T-III frontal armor. Nevertheless, the Germans made a third assault attempt, the reflection of which the heroes used up the entire ammunition, destroying six more enemy tanks and one armored personnel carrier. The Germans, however, did not calm down and called for reinforcements - a 105-mm assault gun, which they managed to pull to a Soviet tank at a distance of 75 meters.
                    1. Alex 241
                      +2
                      1 December 2013 23: 51
                      When the last shell was driven into the barrel of a tank gun, Konovalov warned the crew that after the shot everyone left the car. By this time, the KV-1 was completely disabled: numerous hits did their job. During the evacuation, three crew members died. Only Lieutenant Konovalov, technician-lieutenant Serebryakov and gunner Dementyev could get out. Having taken a tank machine gun with them, the tankers decided to make their way to their own. After a week of wandering through the fields, the heroes were lucky to get to the village in which the German tank platoon was stationed. Experienced tankers, having eliminated the sentry, climbed into a German combat vehicle left without proper supervision, quickly figured out the control and drove off to the front in front of astonished Germans. The crew of Lieutenant Konovalov in a captured German tank safely arrived at the location of the Soviet troops, where he was "captured". However, the incident was soon exhausted, and "Soviet German" continued to fight under the command of Konovalov for about a month, destroying three of his former brothers during this time.
                      1. Amfitsion
                        0
                        2 December 2013 00: 04
                        Lol
                        Can you name a specific model of the 105-mm assault gun? For as far as I know, thereof, Schturumhaubitze 42 made its first debut on the Eastern Front in July 43rd. Maybe I missed something?
                      2. Alex 241
                        +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 21
                        According to some reports, 6 out of 12 ordered were ready in 42 years.
                      3. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 08
                        This is war Sasha! A rare photo
                      4. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 17
                        Quote: Den 11
                        ! Rare photo

                        And why is it so unusual? A lot of photos of Germans using captured equipment, including ours. And then the Germans on our SU-85 ...


                      5. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 23
                        And it’s rare in that only 3 cars were captured in the battle of Kursk. This is one of them.
                      6. +1
                        2 December 2013 10: 52
                        Quote: Den 11
                        in the battle of Kursk only 3 vehicles were captured. This is one of them

                        They were not near Kursk. The baptism of fire Su-85 received at the Dnieper border.
                      7. +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 27
                        Quote: Den 11
                        Rare photo

                        Here is more interesting
                        T4, with the stars, but it’s like the Germans are sitting on the armor ...
                      8. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 30
                        Somewhere I had "Panthers" T-5 with stars (Soviet). True, they did not want to ride on our gasoline.
                      9. +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 36
                        In, found. Krasavy-is not it?
                      10. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 39
                        Quote: Den 11
                        .Beautiful, right?
                        I would prefer that these "beauties" would never show off with us ...
                      11. Lesnik
                        0
                        2 December 2013 01: 13
                        Good ..... stars good
                      12. Alex 241
                        +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 39
                        Seryozha, can any of the allies?
                      13. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 28
                        or this KV2, which the Americans captured ...
                      14. Alex 241
                        +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 43
                        The Bulgarians, using their T-IV standard equipment on the way to the Austrian Alps during the Bulgarian offensive on the city of Nis (territory of the CXC occupied by the Wehrmacht and the SS).
                      15. +1
                        2 December 2013 00: 52
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Bulgarians using their full-time equipment

                        To go nuts, how many Bulgarians still have this antiques ...

                      16. Alex 241
                        0
                        2 December 2013 00: 55
                        Wow Seryozha, collectors strangle themselves for it!
                      17. 0
                        2 December 2013 01: 01
                        Quote: Alex 241
                        Wow Seryozha, collectors strangle themselves for it!

                        So I'm surprised. We are chasing all the "crowbar", but here there is so much good ...
                      18. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 59
                        Yes, this crap is still in bulk (MP-40 without a barrel). These are our Hezbollah allies in Syria
                      19. +2
                        2 December 2013 00: 57
                        Quote: Den 11
                        Rare photo

                        Ours after the Victory, in one of the units conduct combat drill, but there are no steel helmets for everyone, so they use what came to hand ...
                      20. 0
                        2 December 2013 01: 05
                        Class! Super! I like such unusual pictures
                      21. 0
                        2 December 2013 00: 10
                        Quote: Alex 241

                        Alexander, I have no doubt at all about the courage of our people, but the story is very reminiscent of agitation ... I do not think that they had time to count German tanks in a convoy, and it was hardly possible
                        a marching tank column of 75 tanks appeared.

                        the Germans have such a number of tanks - a huge force, this is actually a battle group of at least the German tank division ...
                        The Germans, however, did not calm down and called for reinforcements - a 105-mm assault gun, which they managed to pull to a Soviet tank at a distance of 75 meters.

                        You can find out the place of the battle. Usually it is not their style to burst so much. Having met resistance, their mechanized troops were looking for a safer way for movement, leaving the honor of destroying the "obstacle" to the infantry ... The main thing for them was to maintain the pace, the pace and again the pace ...
                        So, I think that there was of course a clash, but against how many German tanks and with what result - there are a lot of questions ... and to hit a tank with a shell, it doesn’t mean to destroy it, the Germans had a chance, if not all, then part of the affected to recover ...
                        And so, even the fact of the capture of a German tank, of course, commands respect, if at least a quarter of our crews, who lost their tanks in 1942, replaced them with German ones, this is how the Panzerwaffe would have ended in August 1942
                  2. +1
                    1 December 2013 23: 56
                    Believe me, Sanya is a Tiger
                    1. Alex 241
                      0
                      2 December 2013 00: 00
                      It is too...............
          2. 0
            2 December 2013 11: 58
            Just in case, I’ll ask, but how can one take merit from a participant in a combined arms battle?
            This is not HERE, the damage does not count.
    3. 0
      1 December 2013 19: 46
      Quote: perepilka
      Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination

      Yes and so and so ...
      Directly in Operation Citadel, two heavy tank battalions (503rd and 505th) and four companies of motorized divisions took part.

      http://bronesite.narod.ru/German/Pz_VI_combat.htm
  14. +1
    30 November 2013 11: 38
    By this time, the German tank ace Untersturmfuhrer SS division Leibstandart, Michael Wittmann, who had resettled by this time, destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 anti-tank guns during the Battle of Kursk, which made up 20% of the 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns that he had destroyed during the war. Exactly battalion Wittmann repelled the attack of the 181st Soviet tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...

    Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination. a tank company consisting of heavy Tiger tanks includes 14 vehicles - three platoons of 4 tanks each plus 2 in a command platoon.
    181st Tank Brigade - 24 medium T-34 tanks and 20 light T-70s.
    Directly under Prokhorovka, in this battle, SS Vich Brigadeführer had 60 tanks and a tank company of heavy tanks, totaling 74, of which 14 were heavy.
    In addition to the 181st, we also have the 32nd - 64 T-34 medium tanks.
    1. +13
      30 November 2013 12: 06
      Nice to read the comment of a competent person. hi
      In the Red Army, there was some exaggeration in the names of units and formations. So a heavy tank (self-propelled) regiment is only 21 vehicles, a TBR is a real regiment, TK, MK is approximately a German division. The army, respectively, the German army corps, the front-field (or German tank) army.
      The losses of our troops were high, more, but not small, German.
      This was mainly explained not by the quality of the German guns, but by the best ability to fight, even in the summer of 43 years.
      The same, the aforementioned brigadenfuhrer, reflected the attack of 181 and 32 Tbr fire from a place, as it should be in the science of the reflection of the counterattack. And the mentioned brigades burned down attacking the insufficiently explored enemy in the forehead, in an not quite suitable area without proper support from the aircraft.
      Yes, and our aviation was unable to thwart the attacks of German bombers, largely thanks to which, "destroyed one after another anti-tank strongholds", as the author writes.
      But some of the qualitative superiority of the German troops, especially manifested on the southern front of the Kursk Bulge, could not surpass the courage of our soldiers and the right strategic choice of command.
      As well as the efforts of the rear, thanks to which it was possible to create powerful reserves.
      All this predetermined the further result: the defeat of the German army in the Battle of Kursk, the loss of always strategic initiative, the liberation of Kharkov and the left-bank Ukraine, no matter how skillfully and stubbornly Manstein fought, Kluge with Model, son of Ribbentrop and brigandenfuhrer from 2 CC CC.
      1. Eugeniy_369
        +2
        30 November 2013 14: 03
        Quote: Alekseev
        from the same, the aforementioned brigadenführer, reflected the attack of 181 and 32 Tbr fire from a place, as it should be in the science of the reflection of the counterattack. And the mentioned brigades burned down attacking the insufficiently explored enemy in the forehead, in an not quite suitable area without proper support from the aircraft.

        I agree. You have forgotten to write about the "heroic blow of Rotmistrov". This "great strategist" decided to take the Germans by surprise, well, well ... The Hans not only managed to turn around, they also went on the defensive.
        1. +5
          30 November 2013 17: 57
          Quote: Eugeniy_369
          Have you forgotten about the "heroic blow of Rotmistrov" to write

          The attack of 181 and 32 Tbr is the blow of Rotmistrov, or rather, part of it.
          But ... We must clearly be aware that it is much easier for us to reason here than to take the absolutely right decision (and arrange for its implementation) to the commander of the 5th Guards AT on July 12, 1943.
          I don’t know, maybe someone would have done better than him then ...
          I do not know. Here is a more competent "SS Brigadeführer Helmut Becker, the commander of the SS division" Death's Head ", recalled:" I noticed clouds of dust on the horizon. And soon Russian tanks began to appear from these clouds. These Russians moved their reserves,? "I said to my chief headquarters and realized that we lost the battle for Kursk. "
          Immediately, the seasoned Brigadefuehrer realized this, although he knew that his tankers would certainly inflict heavy losses on the attacking tanks of our army. But he also knew for sure that his soldiers from such a battle will not come out.
          An example of the dominance of a strategy over tactical failures. You can’t jump above your head. And Rotmistrov ensured the organized entry of his army into the battle, the rear and technical support of his troops, and although he suffered heavy losses, there was no talk of defeating him. Already in early August, the 5th Guards TA participated in the capture of Kharkov and the reflection of the fierce attempts of the Germans to recapture him.
          1. Eugeniy_369
            +1
            1 December 2013 00: 55
            Quote: Alekseev
            And Rotmistrov ensured the organized entry of his army into the battle, the rear and technical support of his troops, and although he suffered heavy losses, there was no talk of defeating him. Already in early August, the 5th Guards TA participated in the capture of Kharkov and the reflection of the fierce attempts of the Germans to recapture him.

            I do not agree. After Prokhorovka, Rotmistrov was saved only by the fact that Stalin did not want to disassemble the huge losses (in defense) so as not to stain the repelled offensive. Rotmistrov didn’t provide the entry of the mass of tanks (Churchill only arrived at the end of the battle, therefore they had almost no losses), and where did you provide it? You looked at the map on this map? Is it okay for 50% of the equipment? so also the battlefield behind the Fritz remains, but they blew all our tanks that they could not use. The fact that in Kharkov the number of tanks and l / s brought to the state thanks to the rear, I need to say (and my grandmother in particular).
            PS This counterattack was predicted by Nemchur right up to Prokhorovka, look at the map. It is not necessary to have seven spans to understand, on this site and it is necessary to beat the erupted enemy (on the flank), it’s a pity they performed poorly.
            1. +4
              1 December 2013 16: 18
              Quote: Eugeniy_369
              After Prokhorovka, Rotmistrov was saved only by the fact that Stalin did not want to disassemble the huge losses (in defense) so as not to stain the repelled offensive.

              I do not think that such a reason would have saved Rotmistrov from Stalin's anger. He was not only not shot, but left to command the army. I agree with you that he was not "Napoleon" in the battle of Prokhorovka, but I am sure that the main reason for the unsuccessful actions of our troops was the skillful and stubborn resistance of the Germans.
              The best, by the way, of the Reich armored formations. And the actions of German aviation, too.
              If the enemy were weaker, perhaps 5GV.TA simply crushed, crushed him.
              And to Kharkov, the number is neither 5gv. Nor 1gv. TA (which, as many believe it was better to fight) to the state failed to bring. request The troops cannot be restored so quickly, they are not tin soldiers. Although your grandmother, and my aunt, and many others, many really worked hard in the Urals not for fear, but for conscience. The TA was combat-ready in the first 1, in the 108th 5 tanks, if I am not mistaken. But these were combat-ready formations, which they proved in battle, because by no means only the number of tanks determines the combat readiness of the troops.
              The same exact picture was in the German tank divisions.
              1. Eugeniy_369
                0
                1 December 2013 20: 24
                Quote: Alekseev
                that the main reason for the unsuccessful actions of our troops was the skillful and stubborn resistance of the Germans

                Not exactly, the Germans were advancing, and of course it is not entirely correct to consider Prokhorovka separately from the entire operation on the southern front, I got carried away what .
                Quote: Alekseev
                failed to bring to the state.

                I did not claim this, part of the losses in equipment and personnel were made up for. And if I’m not mistaken (correct) 5gv.TA, some units have been subordinated.
                PS It's nice to discuss with a competent and polite person hi .
      2. +2
        30 November 2013 19: 44
        Why did you need this counter-strike of 5 TA and 5 combined arms? If the enemy captured the area from which the attack was started and the offensive was launched ... Better did Katukov to the north-beat from the ambush, did not put his tanks under German guns ...
        1. +5
          30 November 2013 23: 10
          Quote: bagatura
          Why did you need this counter-strike of 5 TA and 5 combined arms?

          Did Rotmistrov have a choice? The Germans, in fact, broke through the defense, but forgot to report to ours that they were exhausted and were going on the defensive themselves. That is why they rushed into the oncoming lane who was the first to arrive, that is, the 181st, and in the 181st, the T-70s were the first! A teardrop, of course, is a great power, only now no one had it and will not have it. By the way, there was a lot of anti-tank equipment there, from the Germans, of course. By the way, Rotmistrov still had "Churchillies", so they all remained intact, more did not have time, because of their "unsurpassed" speed.
          1. Eugeniy_369
            -1
            1 December 2013 03: 36
            Quote: perepilka
            Did Rotmistrov have a choice?

            There is always a choice. One commander of the mechanized corps on the southern front, when the Germans ordered him from the front, refused to knock him out of his head, almost shot ...
          2. +1
            1 December 2013 16: 21
            Quote: perepilka
            Did Rotmistrov have a choice?

            Nice to read the comment of a competent person! hi
          3. +2
            1 December 2013 16: 40
            Dermatologically for 70 years then they’ll advise me lekce ... But why should I hurry? The Germans were advancing, they lacked the time and resources, they were looking for quick success ... It was wiser to wait for them and destroy them for a short distance, so did Katuki .. But what makes it clear that the Soviet tankers did not know about the Soviet counter-ditch ditch and cast as blind? Who owes them about this will tell where intelligence ...

            PP Munya has no bad feelings for Rotmistrov — his children, like Katukov’s children near Plevna, fought in 1877!
        2. +2
          1 December 2013 17: 00
          Quote: bagatura
          Why was a 5-TA and 5 combined-arms counterblow needed? Better did Katukov north-beat him from an ambush, didn’t put his tanks under German guns ...

          And this was Vatutin's "proprietary" technique - to beat the attacking enemy in the forehead, before that he used 5 TCs with the same result ...
          1. +2
            1 December 2013 17: 13
            And there was such a ... by the name of Meretskov! It’s incomprehensible to me how he reached such heights! Only one of the subordinates of the armies commanding him I admire is the commander of the 42nd --- General Maslennikov! A man of steel! I’m him I admire! These creatures ruined ... Whoever deals with the history of the Second World War, will understand. And General Gorbatov?
  15. +3
    30 November 2013 12: 12
    About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
  16. 0
    30 November 2013 12: 12
    About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
    1. +5
      30 November 2013 12: 18
      Quote: 123321
      About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
      Alas, a very beautiful legend and no more, the entire course of the battle of Kursk shows that our command knew about the Germans' plans - only in general terms. Otherwise, there would have been neither Prokhorovka, nor other less well-known, but nevertheless very bloody battles for us in that battle ...
      1. +3
        30 November 2013 20: 12
        In military academies, the Battle of Kursk is seen as a classic example of a defensive operation. In form it is correct.
        In fact (this is my opinion), the transition to defense with numerical superiority indicates a lack of ability to conduct offensive actions and psychological unpreparedness to attack.
      2. Eugeniy_369
        -1
        1 December 2013 03: 39
        Quote: svp67
        what our command knew about the plans of the Germans - only in general terms

        That's right. The blow was known and where it is not clear ...
        Even before the advance, the Germans were able to let the fog.
  17. +6
    30 November 2013 12: 50
    Eternal glory and memory to Soviet soldiers and officers who defeated a strong and skillful enemy in the Battle of Kursk in July 1943
  18. 0
    30 November 2013 12: 50
    Eternal glory and memory to Soviet soldiers and officers who defeated a strong and skillful enemy in the Battle of Kursk in July 1943
  19. Reyngard
    -22
    30 November 2013 13: 15
    Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?
    1. +3
      30 November 2013 19: 49
      Ill, you did not confuse sites ?!
      1. catapractic
        0
        2 December 2013 21: 35
        judging by the epaulette, it has long been confused and lost laughing
    2. +1
      30 November 2013 20: 42
      What are you talking about?
      About ordinary infantry Van, who defended his homeland, or platoon Petrov, company Sidorov. Surround, they didn’t deserve Eternal Glory. (By the simplicity of my simplicity I cannot call strangers on you and insult people not in the rules).
    3. +7
      30 November 2013 22: 33
      Reyngard
      Yes, yes, it’s corpses. And we threw corpses very accurately - and it turned out following the results of the War that about one killed German or German satellite fell on one corpse thrown by us ... do not be offended, for my addition? This is what you had in mind - the fact that the military losses, if we exclude the prisoners deliberately tortured by the Germans and the civilians destroyed by them, came out practically equal with us, right? :)))
    4. +4
      1 December 2013 01: 35
      Quote: Reyngard
      Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

      What are the corpses? They worked, purely, with high-precision arrows of the oscilloscope. Something like this, Julia Leonidovna request
    5. 0
      1 December 2013 16: 29
      Quote: Reyngard
      .And the fact that the Germans were thrown with corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

      If you are weak, then you should get into the conversation of knowledgeable people! Yes
      How can this be thrown into corpses and defeated later? what Newspapers read correctly ... When there are much more corpses (prisoners) than the enemy - it’s n ... c, and there was no question of taking any cities, liberating Left-Bank Ukraine in the summer and autumn of 1943.
  20. +5
    30 November 2013 14: 19
    In 2007 I dug in those parts of the gas pipeline. Locals say that where we were digging fights were not very severe. But by the amount of iron in the earth that they find, one can imagine WHAT was happening where the battles were fierce ...
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. +4
    30 November 2013 14: 20
    They actually kill in a war, it's not in the Code to play with saves ...
    It’s not for us, with our knowledge of what has already passed, to judge those who did not know what would happen in an hour (bombers arrive, break roads, don’t deliver b / c and l / s and so on, and the effect of our bombers on the German station is also not calculated )
    1. +2
      30 November 2013 20: 21
      For this, military leaders are taught in academies as managers and to calculate the consequences of hostilities also taught in academies, but how a military leader can do this depends on his knowledge and talent, because management is half science and half art.
  23. +4
    30 November 2013 15: 30
    Some kind of verbal diarrhea from a mixture of Soviet and German propaganda, minus. Although the separation of the many-month fortifications over 17 hours was a fact, Vatutin, who had to spread his troops in a thin layer on the defensive, always considered the plan of operation unsuccessful. If 4: 1 were lost, the balance of power would have changed in favor of the Germans, that is, they would have won the battle, which in fact did not happen, although the German loss reports are a very funny thing, it remains only to find out how the Germans lost for the whole 41 the year allegedly there were only 800 people in all categories, all of a sudden they started to retreat, and retreated all winter, but the losses killed in 500 + to the people to the Battle of Kursk are from the field of anecdotes.
  24. +6
    30 November 2013 16: 18
    Now all liberal propaganda has hit the battle of Kursk, realizing that this was a turning point in the course of the war. The battle of Prokhorovka and the loss ratio of 1 to 6 are cited as an example. Dear, one should remember that in the 5th Guards Tank Army of Rotmistrov the number of light tanks of the T-60, T-70 type amounted to 40%, about which he himself wrote in a letter to Stalin. And then the number of losses changes dramatically, do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended. Everything falls into place. Guderian himself recognized Kursk as the defeat of the German armored forces, after which they could not recover. Let the rest of the digital be on the conscience of Goebbels and his followers.
    1. 0
      30 November 2013 20: 35
      Tank64rus
      "do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended"
      The main type of hostilities is an offensive, it is carried out to destroy the enemy. You are trying to refute this truth, because if the attacker loses more than the defender, then what is the point of the attack.
      The battle of Prokhorovka should be considered as a meeting battle - the most difficult type of battle that the Germans won due to the insufficient combat experience of our military commanders at that moment.
    2. +1
      30 November 2013 21: 36
      The attacker often loses less, since only the density of troops matters. Prokhorovka is only one episode, not too successful for us, instead of a flank attack, a head-on collision came out.
  25. +1
    30 November 2013 16: 18
    Now all liberal propaganda has hit the battle of Kursk, realizing that this was a turning point in the course of the war. The battle of Prokhorovka and the loss ratio of 1 to 6 are cited as an example. Dear, one should remember that in the 5th Guards Tank Army of Rotmistrov the number of light tanks of the T-60, T-70 type amounted to 40%, about which he himself wrote in a letter to Stalin. And then the number of losses changes dramatically, do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended. Everything falls into place. Guderian himself recognized Kursk as the defeat of the German armored forces, after which they could not recover. Let the rest of the digital be on the conscience of Goebbels and his followers.
  26. Amfitsion
    +1
    30 November 2013 16: 26
    And what, let me ask you, is the message of this article? This is almost a direct reprint of the official-naphthalene twelve-volume, another 60s ...
    To highlight the heroism of our ancestors? So this does not need confirmation and complaints, does it? Nafig such "popular" articles to post something?
    After all, something, but the Battle of Kursk in general, and Prokhorovka in particular, were chewed-requested a hundred times. After all, there is Zamulin, Lopukhovsky, Starostin, Isaev, Thomas Yents with his Panzertruppen at last ... Yes, indeed, our losses in defense, in people and in technology were four times higher than the German ... What are they shy of? They fought as they could ...
    The Germans, in total in GA "Yug" and "Center" participating in the operation, had just over 1000 tanks and self-propelled guns of all types, and not 2700 ... And so in everything, as possible today, after so much research and the publication of so many documents , to believe the Soviet semi-official propaganda writings half a century ago?
    Here, for example, the combat report of the headquarters of the Voronezh Front number 01398 beginning. General Staff of the losses from July 4 to July 22:

    Killed - 20.577

    Missing - 25.898

    Captured - 29

    Total irretrievable loss of life - 46.504

    Wounded - 54.427

    Total casualties - 100.931.

    Tanks and self-propelled guns - 1.628

    Guns and mortars - 3.609

    Aircraft - 387 (with crashed).

    Sorry, but here only the Voronezh Front, and in its combat report (official document!) Lost 1628 tanks and self-propelled guns
    1. +1
      1 December 2013 16: 47
      Quote: Amphitious
      The Germans, in total in GA "Yug" and "Center" participating in the operation, had just over 1000 tanks and self-propelled guns of all types, and not 2700 ...

      Well, about the report of the Voronezh Front, of course, I do not argue.
      But the number of tanks the Germans from what report?
      With 1000 tanks in units to begin such a large-scale operation? That is unlikely... It was not fools who commanded in Germany.
      1. Amfitsion
        0
        1 December 2013 18: 28
        Thomas Yents. Panzertruppen. And his book about Kursk.
        1. +1
          4 December 2013 20: 40
          The troupe of this Yents is clearly noble, but as a reliable truth, I can’t accept him. request
          In particular, because of the opinion, for example, of the German military historian, Mr. Görlitz, who wrote that "the last (German) units capable of an offensive burned down and turned into slag." Also, such famous German military as Gen. G. Guderian, gene. Tippelskirch and others.
          A military defeat is nothing more, roughly speaking, as a loss. Moreover, those that would not make it possible to achieve the strategic goals of a military company (battle, battle)
          Or, someone normal doubts that a successful attack on Oryol and Kharkov, defended by those who did not bear most serious losses German troops could be successful?
  27. +6
    30 November 2013 18: 09
    Quote: Amphitious
    Yes, indeed, our losses in defense, in people and in technology were four times higher than the German ... What are they shy of? They fought as they could ...

    Where do these numbers come from 4: 1? Is this official statistics, or is it possible to calculate our total current, while the Germans only have combat? Che does not fit strategic defense with such losses. They knew how to fight no worse than the Germans - nefig produce idols where they weren’t.
    Quote: Amphitious
    Sorry, but here only the Voronezh Front, and in its combat report (official document!) Lost 1628 tanks and self-propelled guns

    The interception of a strategic initiative is acceptable. By the way, how to calculate the losses that the Wehrmacht suffered as a result of the retreat and loss of initiative?
  28. +4
    30 November 2013 18: 15
    Quote: Reyngard
    Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

    No one will say. This contradicts the loss figures of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht. About 11-12 million people from the USSR and 7-9 million. from Germany. To a ratio of 4 to 1, it will be far away. Moreover, on the side of the Germans, the military fought from all over Europe.
    1. Eugeniy_369
      -2
      1 December 2013 03: 44
      Quote: DesToeR
      Moreover, on the side of the Germans, the military fought from all over Europe.

      Then why should the Germans lose them only? You yourself refute.
      Subtract from this number of satellites and allies and the difference will increase. And singing about the civilian population is not necessary, in the subject. And where did the figure of 11-12 million come from? Like for 20 speech goes ... or do you think the military? Only the Germans for some reason take the general, a closer look .... just argue then operate on the facts.
  29. DimychDV
    +8
    30 November 2013 18: 55
    In the second half of the 80s I was a newspaperman, writing down the story of a resident of Primorye who served in a field tank repair workshop. He said when, after the battle, they arrived at the field near Prokhorovka - by the end of the day, the new lieutenant went crazy. The picture was as if the tanks were fighting hand-to-hand. The burning thirty-four, unable to knock out the "Tiger", rammed it. And this is not in one place, but in a tank - four, and this collective rage seemed to hang after the battle over heaps of burnt, twisted, scattered metal across the field. About half of the tanks on both sides had their turrets torn off by detonation of ammunition: for ours - the result of a hit, for the Germans - the result of a battering ram, for some reason in our ammunition stowage it detonated less often on impact. Others simply burned to the ground, some were knocked out, but the dead had not yet been removed ... Someone was turned around on a torn off caterpillar, and he beat the Germans who passed by in the rear until he was burned. At that, the transmission crumbled at full speed, and he was shot, he may have managed to shoot just a couple of shells in the attack. The Tigers have chipped holes, traces of hits on the frontal armor, but not a single one. Only hitting the hull from the side or pursuing those who missed them, into the turrets - they rarely hit, apparently, they tried to get into the engine compartment. Although at the beginning of the attack, ours, warned in advance, tried to hit the chassis - the tracks. Frontal, lateral, tangential rams, a tank that took off on a tank, overturned vehicles came across more than once ... Of their unit, they were able to return only two tanks to service, scored some more spare parts, and gave up on the rest: they can only be repaired at the factory, and then the capital ...
    1. Alex 241
      +7
      30 November 2013 19: 15
      .................................................. ..
      1. +1
        2 December 2013 11: 55
        part of the photo 41
  30. +1
    30 November 2013 19: 26
    And they say there was no oncoming battle ... Yes, this is probably the first and only battle in history, when tanks massively went "hand-to-hand" against each other. Well, in hand-to-hand, you do not care on the Tiger or on the Panther - the Russian will do one thing
    1. Eugeniy_369
      -2
      1 December 2013 03: 52
      Quote: DesToeR
      Yes, this is probably the first and only battle in history, when tanks massively went "hand-to-hand" against each other.

      Well ... the Germans did not go anywhere, stood and shot our tankmen. They managed to go on the defensive and deployed flanks. And there is no need here to drive snowstorm on uropatriotism. Read not the officialdom of the times of the CPSU, but the dry statistics of battles in that company.
      PS Nonsense and the "historian" looks better heh ... No German tanks went to hand-to-hand combat And do not drive about patriotism, my grandfather participated a little .... cried when he talked about this battle ....
  31. +3
    30 November 2013 19: 34
    Author: Metelkin A.F. (ed.)
    Title: Memo to the tank crews on the fight of our tanks with enemy tanks
    Publisher: Military Publishing House of the NPO of the USSR
    Год издания: 1942
    Format: PDF
    Russian language
    Pages: 16
    Size: 8,8 MB

    Description: From the book: "There are many means to fight fascist tanks, but the best means of fighting them are still our tanks as highly mobile combat vehicles with powerful weapons and armor protection. Our tanks have a number of advantages over German vehicles in armament and armor. and are a formidable force in the fight against enemy tanks. Fascist tankers are afraid of our heavy and medium tanks. Soviet tankers! Destroy fascist tanks, exterminate Hitler's gangs! "
    1. +3
      30 November 2013 20: 02
      Here about him and the burning animals. They stand on joke in glory of the Red Army. A rattling menagerie was caged into the cage with thunderous fire.
  32. Alf
    +7
    30 November 2013 20: 45
    "The commander of the 2nd battalion of the 6th Panzer Division, Major Franz Becke, on the night of July 11, using captured T34s, captured the heavily fortified town of Rzhavets. At the same time, he personally destroyed three Soviet tanks with hand-held anti-tank weapons ..."
    Interesting, interesting ... The commander of a tank battalion during the battle should be either in the tank or on the CP.
    He had nothing else to do, how to get out of the tank or throw the command post (during the battle, which the tribunal of any army recognizes as dithering) and run to personally shoot at Soviet tanks? Even Lieutenant Maleshkin, who does not have combat experience, from "War as in War" answered such a request: The crew must be in a tank during the battle. And what MANUAL anti-tank weapons did not exist then? Or was he running ahead of his advancing tanks with magnetic mines? I wonder how the German special department looked at this heroism after the battle? This is not even an exaggeration, but already hunting tales.
    1. -1
      30 November 2013 22: 16
      Quote from Wikipedia: In January 1943, 500 grenade launchers entered the Wehrmacht.
      You can look at other sites
      1. +2
        1 December 2013 17: 38
        The tank troops? Why in the tank troops grenade launchers? And where did he take them? It will not fit into the tank, and it is dangerous to carry it on the armor. And the range of those grenade launchers is about 20 meters maximum. That is, he came up (with three grenade launchers) point-blank and shot 3 tanks?
        1. -1
          1 December 2013 19: 19
          You are given the opportunity to look and see that the effective range is 30m, and you are your speculation.
          1. 0
            3 December 2013 04: 36
            Does it change anything?
    2. DimychDV
      +1
      1 December 2013 13: 48
      It is with us that sometimes two sensible majors are only suitable for commanding the barrier. The Germans met such. But here, I think, more often. Our land was defended, and the majors did not go out on staff chairs, but on the front line.
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. Amfitsion
    0
    30 November 2013 21: 18
    Yes, yes, of course, hand-to-hand, let’s tear everyone, yeah ... Not tired?

    The battlefield near Prokhorovka remained in the hands of the Germans, and all night from 12 to 13 July, German sapper teams blew up destroyed Soviet tanks. This is just a chronological and historical fact. Regardless of the degree of militant patriotism. Once again: read Isaev, Zamulin, Lopukhovsky, there are studies of 700-800 pages, a sea of ​​archival documents. Not those times now, in order to sprinkle agitation ... Everything is available. Much researched. There is no point in hiding your ignorance, laziness, and often even stupidity behind pathos and general rants about patriotism and the exploits of grandfathers. Really a patriot? Are you really interested? "Books to the teeth" and forward. It is not necessary to pour out slogans on the mind, this is the truth.

    ------ Where do these 4: 1 numbers come from? Is this official statistics or is it possible to calculate our total current, but the Germans only fighting? ------

    no, these are documentary statistics, Our losses are about our documents, German - according to German. Ours attracted many times more forces and means - thoroughly prepared. Moreover, there was no certainty that the Germans would not pass — there wasn’t. for before that the Germans, in the summer battles, tore the fronts and defenses, in spite of any superiority in people and technology. The 42nd year in Stavka was remembered perfectly. 41st too.
  35. Amfitsion
    0
    30 November 2013 21: 38
    And yet, what kind of "tank hand-fighting" could have been if the bulk of Soviet tanks were separated from the German ones by our own, abandoned, but as usual, according to our races, an uncharted anti-tank ditch?
  36. 0
    30 November 2013 21: 49
    The Germans tried with two blows to cut off the Kursk ledge that they did not succeed, and the field near Prokhorovka does not change anything, because is one of the episodes of the Battle of Kursk, which the Red Army undoubtedly won
    1. -3
      30 November 2013 22: 26
      It is a sin not to win with an advantage in manpower and means.
      1. +7
        30 November 2013 22: 48
        corn
        This never stopped the Germans - and they often gave us a neck in this ratio, and they simply smeared our allies. The Germans were very good at concentrating efforts, creating an advantage, sometimes multiple, including the number of infantry, in the narrow areas where they were attacked. Nobody except our Germans could contain such blows. And even more so to drive them.
        By the way, about superiority in tanks - when do you compare tanks. What German tanks do you compare our lungs with, which we had almost half of, which are a priori incomparable even with their medium tanks? Comparing them is the same if you give a carbine to your hands, and five to your opponents a slingshot, and declare that they surpass you in strength and means by five times. :))) Sorry, for the tightness of the comparison, because not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :)))
        1. 0
          1 December 2013 00: 00
          smile
          Quote from the article: "Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million people, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, over 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft excluding the reserve Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in humans - 1,4 times, in artillery - 1,9 times, in tanks and self-propelled guns - 1,2 times, and in aircraft - 1,4 times "
          I relied only on the numbers given in the article.
          Try to refute.
          1. +1
            1 December 2013 05: 33
            corn
            Your calculations have not refuted anything. what I said in my comment. Not a water letter. \ I allow myself real rudeness and again quote myself:

            “This never stopped the Germans - and they often kicked us in the neck with such a ratio, and they simply smeared the allies. No one except ours could hold back such attacks of the Germans, and even more so to drive them away.
            By the way, about superiority in tanks - when you compare tanks. with which German tanks do you compare our light tanks, of which we had almost half, which a priori are incomparable even with their medium tanks? Comparing them is the same if you give a carbine in your hands, and give your five opponents a slingshot, and declare that they are five times superior in strength and means. :))) Sorry, for the tension of the comparison, since not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :))) "

            Try to refute ... you are tormented ... and you yourself understand this ... no one belittles the ability of the Germans to fight ... but do not belittle our ability to fight .... which we acquired at a very high price ..... Anglo-Saxons they didn’t acquire such a skill ... at any cost .... by the end of the war, we were the one who beat them like that with skill. how they beat us at the beginning .... you can’t notice it only intentionally .... congratulations ...
            1. 0
              1 December 2013 09: 20
              I can not afford any rudeness due to the shortcomings of my education.

              The fact that I deliberately did not enter into a polemic with you, you correctly noted.

              I did not compare anything, I only expressed my opinion and cited the data from the article.

              Compare, something you began.

              "By the way, about superiority in tanks - when you compare tanks. What German tanks do you compare our light tanks with, of which we had almost half, which a priori are incomparable even with their medium tanks? To compare them is the same if you give a carbine in your hands, and five of your opponents on a slingshot, and declare that they are five times superior in strength and resources. :))) Forgive me for the tension of comparison, since not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :) )) "These are your words.

              Judging by your statement, the Germans had carbines and we had slingshots, or did I misunderstand something?

              I still do not understand, our tanks are better or worse (in your estimation).

              Now, please, your evidence in the studio that we had almost half of the tanks were light (in the Battle of Kursk).

              “It’s a sin not to win with an advantage in strength and means.” These are my words that you didn’t like.
              Where is the diminution of someone’s ability to fight. With approximately equal ability to fight, the result is logical, WE WIN, it would be strange if we lost.

              What should I refute, tormented?

              You begin to talk about the ability to fight the Anglo-Saxons, I think they were not in the Battle of Kursk.

              The article does not widely address the issue of the ability to fight not at the beginning, not at the end of the war. I noticed this and did not speak out on this subject. On this subject you vyskaytes.

              With what you congratulate me, I did not understand.
      2. 0
        1 December 2013 20: 15
        I repeat, I don’t give a damn about minuses, even to skulls.
        I want to hear the opinion: what is the incorrectness of my statement.
        And so this is GAV from the gateway.
        I DO NOT think that the smile put me all four minus one.
  37. bubble82009
    +2
    30 November 2013 22: 13
    finally, when describing the battle, the exploits of ordinary soldiers are voiced. the truth is, as always, exaggerated. it’s like the heroic commander of a machine gun company of 300 soldiers, 200 he personally destroyed! the question is how did he prepare his soldiers if he himself had to destroy the Nazis? floridly described until it was established at height. So they had to drape?
    if in all the accomplished feats both on our and their sides look, all the equipment on both sides should have been destroyed.
    but this is all politics. it was necessary to inspire people for heroic deeds, they needed to be awarded and to pay money for destroyed tanks. and it is right! this is what holy lies say.
  38. +2
    30 November 2013 22: 54
    By July 13, in a platoon of anti-tank rifles of the 284th Guards. rifle regiment guards. Senior Lieutenant Pavel Shpetny remained only 9 soldiers. With the last bullets, the soldiers knocked out 6 tanks and died themselves in an unequal battle. When the cartridges ran out, Pavel Shpetny with a bunch of anti-tank grenades threw himself under the seventh enemy tank.
    What kind of heroes are the winners on HRW Vitman? They stopped the Nazis with their lives.
    And you procrastinate who and how where where petty you are petty.
  39. Amfitsion
    +2
    30 November 2013 23: 10
    All the hell, nightmare and bloodthirsty for us of the Battle of Kursk, for me personally is expressed in a brief excerpt from an interview with the commander of the machine gun platoon of the 399th Rifle Regiment of the 111th Rifle Division Kalisha, M.M.
    "How many people were in your platoon?
    - Twenty-four men in a platoon, fighters of 13 nationalities ...
    With the exception of me and Sergeant Vanyukhin, they all died in battles near Belgorod.
    According to the company clerk, over the two months of summer battles on the Kursk-Oryol Bulge, 150 people passed through my machine-gun platoon alone ... "

    So, there are six complete convoys ... Who is killed, who is injured, who are missing, who are captured ...
  40. +2
    30 November 2013 23: 24
    For some reason, no one remembers the main advantage of German tanks - sights ... On ours, at a distance of 600-800, well, a maximum of 1000m, the image doubled, tripled and blurred. It became impossible to aim fire. And the Germans, with their Zeiss sights from 2500m, were shooting our tanks, in fact, being safe. By the way, Stalin was furious for this "oncoming battle" and was going to remove Rotmistrov from office and put him under a tribunal ... According to Rotmistrov himself!
  41. Alf
    +1
    1 December 2013 00: 13
    Quote: corn
    smile
    Quote from the article: "Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million people, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, over 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft excluding the reserve Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in humans - 1,4 times, in artillery - 1,9 times, in tanks and self-propelled guns - 1,2 times, and in aircraft - 1,4 times "
    I relied only on the numbers given in the article.
    Try to refute.

    And can you more accurately find out the breakdown of the types of our tanks and German?
  42. +2
    1 December 2013 03: 58
    "Tigers" are burning ... and on the very first photo a thirty-four is broken into a tease! Strange presentation of information. I would even say western.
  43. 0
    1 December 2013 03: 58
    "Tigers" are burning ... and on the very first photo a thirty-four is broken into a tease! Strange presentation of information. I would even say western.
  44. +1
    1 December 2013 09: 20
    Yes, and the allies, as usual, looked and waited for someone, and when they landed in the ardennes in all new with the thought, now we will show these Germans and Russians how to fight, and Hitler’s second-rate divisions kicked them there, so scream help! save! But what would the Anglo-Saxons do with Hitler if not the Soviet Union, a millennial Reich would really be established.
    1. Amfitsion
      -1
      1 December 2013 13: 45
      I propose to open a school history textbook at least, and at least try to read what is written there, "they landed in the Ardennes" ...
      And by the way: out of every three German tanks and self-propelled guns produced since the summer of the 44th, two went to fight against the Allies.
  45. 0
    1 December 2013 10: 51
    Quote: Eugeniy_369
    Then why should the Germans lose them only? You yourself refute. Subtract from this number of satellites and allies and the difference will increase. And singing about the civilian population is not necessary, in the subject. And where did the figure of 11-12 million come from? Like for 20 speech goes ... or do you think the military? Only the Germans for some reason take the general, a closer look .... just argue then operate on the facts.

    I am not refuting myself. Read the article "Losses of the USSR and Germany in the Second World War" on this site and everything will become clear to you. There, and about "combat" and about "irrevocable" and about the loss of civilians. I gave the figures for the combat losses of the armed forces of the USSR and Germany. Losses of the civilian population are not taken into account here. they reflect not the effectiveness of the Red Army, but the banal brutality and sadism of the fascists. In May 1945, the Russians could completely strangle 10-20 million. occupied Germans, but they didn’t do it ... The combat losses of the Nazi satellites are estimated at about another 850 thousand plus 9 million. losses of the Germans. All the numbers from the article that I gave.
  46. 0
    1 December 2013 11: 08
    Quote: Eugeniy_369
    Hmm ... the Germans did not go anywhere, they stood and shot our tankers. They managed to go over to the defensive and deployed their flanks. And there is no need to drive a blizzard here on Uryapatriotism. Read not the officialdom of the times of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and dry statistics of battles in that company. PS Nonsense, and even then the "historian" looks better. No German tanks went hand-to-hand.And no need to drive about patriotism, my grandfather took part a little ... he cried when he talked about this battle ...

    Have you read the article? Did you notice the memories of the PARTICIPANT in those events? There were not one or two battering rams. The "dry statistics" of battles do not reflect the fury and readiness of self-sacrifice that Soviet soldiers displayed in battle. There are enough articles on the Prokhorovka site, read it, there are testimonies not only of tank repairmen, but also of tankers. And they remember battering rams, and how the Germans jumped out of their entire tanks (it turns out it was not only Russians who jumped out of tanks), and about point-blank shooting, and not from behind tank ditches. "Nonsense of a gray mare" you dear drive, when from the assessment of the actions of the commander, you pass on "patriotism". This is a direct substitution of concepts.
    1. Eugeniy_369
      0
      1 December 2013 22: 57
      Quote: DesToeR
      Have you read the article? Did you notice the memories of the PARTICIPANT in those events? There were not one or two battering rams. The "dry statistics" of battles do not reflect the fury and readiness of self-sacrifice that Soviet soldiers displayed in battle. There are enough articles on the Prokhorovka site, read it, there are testimonies not only of tank repairmen, but also of tankers. And they remember battering rams, and how the Germans jumped out of their entire tanks (it turns out it was not only Russians who jumped out of tanks), and about point-blank shooting, and not from behind tank ditches. "Nonsense of a gray mare" you dear drive, when from the assessment of the actions of the commander, you pass on "patriotism". This is a direct substitution of concepts.

      Hmm ... a lot of noise from nothing, I will not argue with you. I will remain with my opinion. hi
  47. -1
    1 December 2013 12: 08
    It is interesting that for the chmyrdyas they put cons !?
  48. +4
    1 December 2013 12: 11
    The enemy retreated and the battlefield remained with us. As Guderian himself said, "... And there were no more quiet days for the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front ..." What else is there to talk about?
    1. -2
      1 December 2013 16: 20
      The difference in loss! If the Wehrmacht lost people and technology like the Red Army ... lost the war much earlier than 1945 ...
  49. 0
    1 December 2013 12: 23
    And in the first photo, the 34-ki truck and the broken (most likely exploded) tank in the background.
  50. -7
    1 December 2013 12: 46
    You can minus it, but I’ll say --- Hans surpassed us by an order of magnitude! Someone dislikes this truth, but it’s true --- crushed by quantity! Come on, continue to further praise your bloody Zhukov
    1. -1
      1 December 2013 13: 01
      Here’s KARS, of course it’s Bandera, etc. But it’s dragging in armored vehicles. It will confirm to you that we were behind the Hans for 5 years (minimum)
      1. +1
        1 December 2013 16: 53
        Quote: Den 11
        Here is KARS, of course it is Bandera, etc.

        That's right! Yes
        Quote: Den 11
        But in armored vehicles drags.

        This is unlikely! The tops with their photos jumps! laughing
        Quote: Den 11
        Come on, continue to praise your bloody Zhukov

        So it is thanks to Zhukov, "The Hans were superior to us by an order of magnitude!"
        Thanks to the "voice of the enemy", enlightened! laughing
        1. -2
          1 December 2013 17: 03
          Well, and you there too! And wrote competently ...
        2. +1
          2 December 2013 10: 58
          Quote: Alekseev
          That's right!

          thank you
          Quote: Alekseev
          it’s unlikely! Jumps to the top with your photos

          Claim absolute knowledge? Or maybe they caught me where?

          But in fact, the Battle of Kursk showed the collapse of the ideas of positional defense. One instantly destroyed all types of resentment of historians-rezunistov about the possibility of the USSR otsedetsa in defense.
          1. 0
            4 December 2013 20: 49
            Quote: Kars
            Claim absolute knowledge?

            I do not pretend, but in some places I caught it! laughing
            I apologize, maybe my humor is rude!
            hi
            Do not take too literally ...
            How can a discussion "go on" without an emotional background? wink
            1. +2
              4 December 2013 20: 54
              Quote: Alekseev
              I do not pretend, but in some places I caught

              don't you pretend

              And where did you catch, if not remind?
              Quote: Alekseev
              I apologize, maybe my humor is rude!

              as his humor I note, I will definitely keep in mind.
    2. bask
      +1
      1 December 2013 13: 21
      Quote: Den 11
      -Hans exceeded us by an order of magnitude!

      Den Nazis did not exceed us by an order.
      Yes, they had the best optics, a brutal 88 mm anti-tank gun. All means.
      The armor of the Soviet tanks was always better. And to create a high-tech T-34, carpet assembly?
      Conveyor assembly of tanks could only be organized by the Americans,

      And most importantly, Russian Soviet soldiers fought like suicide bombers because they had nothing to lose. The Germans had death in the camp and behind, their orders were not a step back.
      Quote: Den 11
      Here is KARS ...... But in armored vehicles it drags.

      In Den tanks, only in tanks.

      THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER ALWAYS WAS ABOVE THE GERMAN.
      1. Amfitsion
        -2
        1 December 2013 13: 54
        THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER ALWAYS WAS ABOVE THE GERMAN.

        Yes? And why, in some incomprehensible way, it turned out that the Germans served, including in combat units, more than a million of our former fellow citizens? And I dare to note that the vast majority of them are former servicemen of the Red Army. And even in the elite SS divisions, in the summer of the 43rd, up to 10% of the L / S were "Russian Khivi"? Are there any Cossacks? In no case should the heroism and self-sacrifice of our soldiers be underestimated, but it should also not be given out "on the mountain" with aplomb, such as "the Russians are superior in spirit to the Germans / Americans / Britons / emphasize the necessary" either. If it comes to that, then in spirit and self-sacrifice with the Japanese no one beats. Some, over there, until the 70s were partisans ...
        1. +2
          1 December 2013 16: 19
          Amfitsion
          Please do not repeat the perestroika brechology about a million.
          In total, a little more than 700 thousand collaborated with the Germans - this is if we count the cooks in the burgomaster and the elders.
          Chi VI - about 350 thousand. They didn’t trust the weapons - it was a consumable for the Germans - slaves. Like those whom the Mongols drove in front of themselves during the storming of cities. Set there went something like this - either go to work, or go to the wall. I'm not sure I would choose a wall. We ran at the first opportunity. .Many, having escaped, still fought as part of the Red Army.
          The Baltic states are about a hundred thousand, Bandera about the same. In Russian formations - about 60 thousand, including SS men who called themselves Cossacks. About 40 more - different national formations. All.
          In fact - about 300 thousand.
          1. Amfitsion
            0
            1 December 2013 18: 40
            I do not read "perestroika brechology". And I read, for example, fundamental research on the topic of collaborators, from Sergei Drobyazko, for example. Which I recommend to you.
      2. DimychDV
        +3
        1 December 2013 14: 01
        Apparently, the Fritzes had their own Turkins. And you reread the poem. Could this Fritz cope with a small need for an unexploded shell?
        The German soldier is serious, ”said the chairman of the city Council of Veterans, who had fought for two years in scouts. - Yes, but we are not a miss. And our position was stronger: we are right! And this well-fed and strong, skillful and confident son of a bitch - here he is a robber, adversary, killer. In one village I had a fight with one. Healthy - and a wimp against Russian dentistry. And mean-spirited - everything strove to kick me in the wounded leg. But before, he flew into full knockout.
      3. -2
        1 December 2013 14: 01
        Dear BASK! Do you know why I can’t post such a photo from the Soviet side? Because it doesn’t exist! It was at the most shabby Hans corporal there was a fotik --- ours, you know! I understand your indignation --- but it's true from which you will not run away! As for the armor --- do not be fooled by yourself. Armor-piercing into the tower --- with fragments inside, everything !!!
        1. bask
          +4
          1 December 2013 14: 39
          Quote: Den 11
          the most shabby Hans corporal was a fotik --- ours, you understand

          Naturally Den, only 10-11 years have passed since the start of industrialization of the country.
          What has been done in 10 years ?????
          The Germans always fought well, competently, but our grandfathers in the Second World War broke the back of the nation .. and won even without the help of the West.
          Quote: Amphitious
          self-sacrifice with the Japanese no one compares. Some of them, until the 70s, were partisan ...

          The millionth Kwantung army, partisans ,,, was simply destroyed in 3 weeks.
          Japan killed about 84 thousand soldiers and officers, 600 thousand people.
          The irretrievable losses of the Soviet Army amounted to about 12 thousand people.

          Quote: Den 11
          a similar photo from the Soviet side


          For me, the photo of the Second World War, this is only the total genocide of the RUSSIAN people ... From the side of the ....
          And the victory gained by GREAT BLOOD, mainly by the RUSSIAN PEOPLE !!!!!
  51. Amfitsion
    0
    1 December 2013 14: 06
    But really, why did you drag allies here? Like, if we screwed up here and there in something, console ourselves - would they have been even worse, even more disastrous? This is called a protective psychological complex. You shouldn’t console yourself with “they had it worse” (especially if it’s not true), but you need to do all the imaginable “work on mistakes”, learn all the lessons and draw tough, uncompromising conclusions; and not jump on the same rake God knows how many times. We made our contribution to the Victory, they did theirs. We systematically grinded down the human resources of Germany, they were mainly industrial and economic. You can’t do one without the other.
    By tanks. If you open the official Encyclopedia of the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" 85th year of publication, in the section about the Battle of Kursk we read that "at the beginning of the battle, Soviet troops on the Kursk Bulge numbered St. 3600 tanks and self-propelled guns, and of which St. 900 vehicles were light vehicles." That is, even according to Soviet data, there were about 25% light vehicles." And it also says that "in total, St. 5 tanks and self-propelled guns." Taking into account the dry statistics of units and replacements brought into the battle, three quarters, if not more, will be Soviet tanks.
    1. -2
      1 December 2013 14: 14
      Well done! Plus for you from me. Only here on the site they don’t like the truth. Get ready for the minuses. If you’re trying to figure all this out --- My respect to you
      1. Eugeniy_369
        +1
        1 December 2013 14: 53
        Quote: Den 11
        Only here on the site they don’t like the truth. Get ready for the downsides

        Well, don’t do that... there are people who read the posts to the end feel .+
    2. 0
      1 December 2013 16: 23
      St. 900 vehicles were light vehicles." That is, even according to Soviet data, light vehicles accounted for about 25%

      Is it Hans’s fault that he didn’t fight with light tanks?
  52. +4
    1 December 2013 14: 13
    "The Hans were an order of magnitude superior to us!"
    The Ghanaians were superior to us in everything that was not a priority for winning the war. An expensive heavy tank brought less benefit than three cheap medium ones. Competent management of the economy and industry of the USSR turned out to be more effective than competent management of the best “war machine” in the world, the Wehrmacht
    1. Amfitsion
      -1
      1 December 2013 14: 44
      Not quite right.
      The Hans had to fight, I dare say, not only with the USSR, but with the entire Anti-Hitler coalition. I’ll tell you, there’s no need for the primitive “well, how many soldiers and tanks did the Germans fight against the allies, compared to the USSR?” For I will answer with this:
      AG Weser, Bremen (162)
      Blohm & Voss, Hamburg (224)
      Bremer Vulkan-Vegesacker Werft, Bremen-Vegesack (74)
      Danziger Werft AG, Danzig (42)
      Deutsche Schiff und Maschinenbau AG, Bremen (16)
      Deutsche Werft AG, Hamburg (113)
      Deutsche Werke AG, Kiel (69)
      F Schichau GmbH, Danzig (94)
      F. Krupp Germaniawerft AG, Kiel (131)
      Flender Werke AG, Lübeck (42)
      Flensburger Schiffsbau-Ges, Flensburg (28)
      HC Stülcken Sohn, Hamburg (24)
      Howaldtswerke AG, Kiel (31)
      Howaldtswerke Hamburg AG, Hamburg (33)
      Kriegsmarinewerft (KMW), Wilhelmshaven (27)
      Neptun Werft AG, Rostock (10)
      Nordseewerke, Emden (30)
      Oderwerke AG, Stettin (2)
      Stettiner Maschinenbau AG, Stettin (1)

      These are German factories that built submarines, at least. For the war with the allies. A small example for you: Blohm & Voss, Hamburg alone had a production capacity that was THREE times greater than, for example, our Krasnoye Sormovo plant. Year by year it looks like this:
      1941 (199)
      1942 (237)
      1943 (284)
      1944 (229)
      1945 (91)

      Isaev said directly to himself: one boat of the 7th series is approximately 40 unreleased T-III and T-IV tanks. That is, because of the boats, in 42 the Germans did not release 9000 tanks. Considering that less than 6000 were produced, a total of 14 tanks and self-propelled guns would have been produced. What would happen if the Germans had THREE times more tanks and self-propelled guns on the Eastern Front? And these are just boats, not counting, for example, aircraft, which cost many times more than boats and tanks combined.
      1. +2
        1 December 2013 15: 00
        The question is controversial --- which is more necessary - to sink transports carrying... Or to release tanks and airplanes. NEVER underestimate the Hans - they are a very smart and hardworking people
    2. +1
      1 December 2013 16: 26
      Why in the USSR, in addition to the economy and industry, was the army not managed competently? I completely agree that it is better for the Wehrmacht to shoot a T-IV with an extended barrel, etc. the enemy T-34 is quite worthy in a skillful hand..
  53. Amfitsion
    0
    1 December 2013 14: 49
    However, the most interesting thing is that despite the devastating bombing of German factories, from the second half of 44 they reached a production level of 1800 tanks and self-propelled guns per month. And in terms of aircraft production, they have completely overtaken us. And 220 submarines were produced - that’s another 8-9 thousand tanks that were not released.
    Only from June to December 44, an average of 800 newly produced tanks were sent to the Eastern Front. 1000 vehicles were sent monthly to the Western Front and Italy... Such is the “economy”.
    1. -2
      1 December 2013 14: 57
      This is all thanks to Speer. If the agony had lasted until 47, hell knows how many more comrade Zhukov would have killed the people!
  54. +1
    1 December 2013 15: 21
    Quote: Den 11
    Only here on the site they don’t like the truth

    Judging by this phrase, you, too, are not a big supporter of it, since you fast on this site? Everyone has their own truth, and the one who earns the “loot” is by defaming our past, trying to whitewash the “human-lovers” from Hitler’s Germany and their henchmen. And those who are proud of their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers who screwed these “highly cultured” men. And tell the “swamp people” about the most “honest and unbiased” statistics of German achievements and losses... they are also honest and unbiased...
    1. -1
      1 December 2013 15: 32
      And that’s ALL? Petty, disgusting... Not your level, right? Is there anything on the topic? PS - I’m not from the “swamp”! And what kind of... are you fasting here? Are you also defending the truth? Only I’m in trouble with your crookedness!
    2. Eugeniy_369
      +1
      1 December 2013 15: 38
      Quote: Fitter65
      Everyone has their own truth, and those who work off the “loot” - crap from our past, trying to whitewash the “human-lovers” from Hitler’s Germany and their henchmen. And those who are proud of their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers who cheated these “highly cultured” on their hands. And tell the Bolotnaya people about the most “honest and unbiased” statistics of German achievements and losses... they are also honest and unbiased...

      Off-topic negative Den 11 I think I wanted to say that what a high-tech and pragmatic reptile our ancestors strangled, and he did not ennoble anyone. And you're talking about "Bolotnaya".... Apparently it's a habit to see enemies in everyone who operates with facts and not with "uryapatriotic diarrhea" hi .
      1. +2
        1 December 2013 15: 48
        You are absolutely right! I don’t justify the Hans in any way. Yes, they were more technologically advanced than ours --- but we broke Aloizuchu’s back. The question is at what cost? That’s the question of questions! And I don’t need to sing in my ears that they so and so attacked our Motherland .Such tales won’t work with me.
        1. 0
          1 December 2013 16: 10
          And no matter how you disagree with me, but deep down in our hearts we all want to recreate the Great Empire! Men from the Caucasus (with whom I studied and have been friends since the times of the USSR) understand only the language of force. And that’s right! At this stage of Russia’s development --- only this way and no other way! Otherwise they will devour us and not choke on us
  55. -2
    1 December 2013 18: 10
    His battery was attacked by 19 Tigers. Taking advantage of the thick smoke that hid the battery from the enemy, the artillerymen, bringing the tanks to a distance of 500 meters, unexpectedly opened fire and immediately destroyed two tanks. But in just a few minutes of battle, the Tigers destroyed the entire battery with return fire. Of the 28 artillerymen, only the senior sergeant survived, who remained with the only surviving gun. In 17 minutes of battle, he single-handedly, aiming and loading the gun, knocked out 7 “tigers”. He managed to stop the eighth tank with a point-blank shot from a distance of 60 meters, but was seriously wounded by a return shot...

    28 artillerymen knocked out 5 vehicles and held out for several minutes, and one Komsomol organizer then knocked out 7 vehicles and held out alone with one gun that survived without service for as much as 17 minutes.
    On July 5, 1943, in the area of ​​​​the village of Maslova Pristan, a machine gun company of the 229th Guards. rifle regiment under the command of Guards. Lieutenant Vladimir Kolesnikov destroyed 300 enemy soldiers and officers in battle, suppressed 14 enemy machine gun points, and the commander personally destroyed up to 200 Germans with a machine gun.

    It’s good that it’s not the other way around, otherwise the company in battle would have destroyed 200 soldiers, of which 300 were killed personally by the commander.
    But that’s not the main thing, but the main thing is that THEY won then.
  56. The comment was deleted.
  57. Amfitsion
    0
    1 December 2013 18: 27
    But mind you, very few people know the true heroes, and not the political instructor’s reports. For example, who does the name of Major Ivanov, commander of a tank battalion in the Battle of Prokhorovka, tell anyone?
    1. -1
      1 December 2013 19: 20
      Let me correct you - not the political instructor’s reports, but the reports of the Special Departments! There were thousands of such Ivanovs! I am quoting a report from the head of the Special Department of the front, Melnikov (this is all from Meretskov, s...). "The commanders of the divisions subordinate to Meretskov, instead of developing plans for a counter-offensive are in full swing (the spelling has been preserved). The commander of the 378th Infantry has been using a military paramedic in the dugout for 4 days, and justifies his failure to go to the command post by saying that he has fallen ill..."
      1. Amfitsion
        0
        1 December 2013 19: 27
        Yes, this is a “separate” song, but I’m actually talking about one specific kmbat with the last name Ivanov....
  58. +1
    1 December 2013 19: 18
    Well, why, like the Germans, tactically and technically, but “... the Soviet command relied on the traditional qualities of the Russian soldier - perseverance and courage...”.
    So it is still – “perseverance and courage...”.
    When will it be “tactically and technically” on our side?
  59. 0
    1 December 2013 19: 18
    Well, why, like the Germans, tactically and technically, but “... the Soviet command relied on the traditional qualities of the Russian soldier - perseverance and courage...”.
    So it is still – “perseverance and courage...”.
    When will it be “tactically and technically” on our side?
    1. +1
      1 December 2013 19: 30
      Our stripes need to have brains! Have you noticed that even the Bulgarian brothers reproach us? These are the ones who should thank us that we (our great-grandfathers) pulled them out from under the Turkish boot!
      1. +4
        1 December 2013 19: 44
        Quote: Den 11
        Our stripes need to have brains! Have you noticed that even the Bulgarian brothers reproach us? These are the ones who should thank us that we (our great-grandfathers) pulled them out from under the Turkish boot!

        With such “brothers” we don’t need enemies.
        1. 0
          1 December 2013 22: 14
          I can’t understand...why did I offend you?
          1. +1
            1 December 2013 22: 25
            We have this resentment towards you somewhere deep down in our souls! Look at your foreign policy - you betrayed us! You betrayed your brothers and fellow believers! We will endure it as usual and will defend you again
            1. +2
              2 December 2013 19: 45
              1. I am not the head of the Bulgarian Foreign Ministry
              2. Bulgaria did not dissolve the USSR and the Warsaw Pact (I won’t say who did it)
              3. By the way, I don’t know the Soviet satellite country outside NATO and the EU - when I was studying at the university, we had a meeting with European diplomats in Sofia and asked why you need Bulgaria in NATO and the EU? But they still told us the names of the countries - we need geography....that's all! They said straight out, no NATO, no EU either... We all know the state of Russia in 90... she abandoned everything and everyone, abandoned Eastern Europe... and now blame us for this. What do you need? They stand like a reserve and are managed by one father like Lukashenko? But is Russia a good example of subversiveness - how Serdyukov destroyed the army and... where is he now?
              4. I don’t think that NATO needs a war with Russia...why? Isn’t he also a sad appendage of the West itself? It’s painful to look at but...where are our Russian goods....no!
              5. Even the Serbs you love want to join the EU...are they traitors too?
              6. You have to fight for Ukraine - if they tear it away from you... then there will be a great tragedy for Russia...
      2. The comment was deleted.
  60. The comment was deleted.
  61. +2
    1 December 2013 20: 14
    Well described. I read it to the end in one sitting.
  62. 0
    1 December 2013 20: 31
    Our “hurray-patriots” are touching! “The Red Army is the strongest!”, “We will throw hats at the enemy!” They threw it... On the Volga! Do you want more? Well, the main conclusion from the Battle of Kursk, it seems to me, is that we still didn’t know how to fight... There was plenty of equipment, aviation, and ammunition, but the command didn’t yet have the skills! Then it will appear, but - LATER. In fact, the Battle of Kursk was won not near Kursk, but near Orel, where the command of the Central Front managed not only to stop the Germans, but also to go on the offensive. Nevertheless, the main burden of the battle fell on the Voronezh Front. And, as always, they paid for the inability of command with the lives of ordinary soldiers... Eternal GLORY to them! and Eternal MEMORY to them!
    1. -1
      1 December 2013 22: 18
      Well, the main conclusion from the Battle of Kursk, it seems to me, is that we still did not know how to fight.


      Well... it’s good that the Russian said it this time! Why couldn't they? Who is guilty? Hans knew how to fight in 1939 and then, but the Red Army taught how to fight in the movement...these lessons were bloody! Millions died while he taught something... And eternal glory to those who won and survived in spite of everything!
    2. typhoon7
      0
      1 December 2013 23: 04
      Quote: serezhafili
      Our “hurray-patriots” are touching! “The Red Army is the strongest!”, “We will throw hats at the enemy!” They threw it... On the Volga! Do you want more? Well, the main conclusion from the Battle of Kursk, it seems to me, is that we still didn’t know how to fight... There was plenty of equipment, aviation, and ammunition, but the command didn’t yet have the skills! Then it will appear, but - LATER. In fact, the Battle of Kursk was won not near Kursk, but near Orel, where the command of the Central Front managed not only to stop the Germans, but also to go on the offensive. Nevertheless, the main burden of the battle fell on the Voronezh Front. And, as always, they paid for the inability of command with the lives of ordinary soldiers... Eternal GLORY to them! and Eternal MEMORY to them!

      If quantity does not have quality (fighting spirit, love for the Motherland), not even the best tanks or planes will help you, nothing will help you.
      1. 0
        3 December 2013 20: 32
        Did our soldiers lack something?
  63. typhoon7
    +3
    1 December 2013 22: 04
    In general, there is a company all over the world to revise history, including the history of wars. It turns out that the Great Patriotic Wars of 1812-14, and 1941-45 were won by winter, the Army had nothing to do with it, forgetting that for our army it was also winter and not summer. Our tanks and planes are worse, the generals too, I look at Zhukov at the map with a glass of vodka and it’s noticeable that he took a sip more than once. And the Germans, no matter the general, are a genius, all highly moral and decent (which did not stop them from slaughtering and burning the entire western part of the country). In that case, I would like to ask? How did they, with such an army, generals, such tanks and planes, manage to lose the war to us? It is their words that are judged. They thought that when they reached Moscow they would see the remains of a demoralized army. Now, everything was just beginning. The reason for the defeat of the French and Germans was not the weather, the blinding sun and other circumstances. This reason was our people, who did not fall into despair at the most critical moments of the war. The whole country mobilized, whoever fought, fought, others evacuated industry from west to east. Women and children worked 12 hours a day, but Leningrad, Stalingrad, the Brest Fortress, other cities of Heroes, the same Kursk Bulge, how could it have been any other way? I read above that our generals could not plan an offensive operation on the Kursk Bulge with such a huge number of troops and equipment. This is not true, although there have been proposals. Nevertheless, they were inclined to believe that it was better to knock out their shock forces and tank fists in a defensive battle, so that the Germans on the eastern front could no longer carry out offensive operations of such a scale, and the task was completed.
  64. typhoon7
    +2
    1 December 2013 22: 28
    So I’ll ask the minuser to explain why he gave the minus? For patriotism, love for the Motherland, for disagreement with modern pseudo-historians who pour mud on our glorious past.
    1. -1
      1 December 2013 22: 36
      So you all say --- Rezun-Suvorov is nonsense and bullshit. But at least ONE historian was able to refute it? One blah blah blah --- bastard traitor. NO normal historian could refute him! NOBODY!
      1. Lesnik
        +1
        1 December 2013 22: 45
        To refute means to admit that a fact MAY take place. A serious historian can do this only out of a desire for “scandalous” fame, which in itself “serious historian - scandalous fame” are not compatible.
        I hope I have made my thoughts clear. Sincerely!
        1. 0
          1 December 2013 22: 52
          I understand you perfectly. By the way, you are not the first to take such a position in relation to Rezun.
          1. Lesnik
            0
            1 December 2013 22: 56
            Let me correct you, TRAITOR TO THE HOMELAND, TRAITOR (who leaked the residency) REZUN! Sentenced to the HIGHEST MEASURE OF SOCIAL PROTECTION FOR TREASON TO THE MOTHERLAND!!!!!!!!
            1. -1
              1 December 2013 23: 03
              Can I ask who he betrayed? That’s it, he remained faithful - that’s why he still lives in Liverpool. I don’t advise anyone to follow his path! This is not Kalugin for you - the time will come - he will answer!
      2. Old scoop
        0
        1 December 2013 23: 18
        For example, Boris Yulin. Search on YouTube. In one of the videos he talks about tracked-wheeled tanks. At that time, they were present in many armies for one simple reason - the resource of the tracks was very small, for technological reasons. Tanks marched along roads on wheels and went into battle on tracks. The Internet provides a lot of information, the main thing is to have the desire and not have prejudice, and of course include Moscow.
    2. Amfitsion
      +1
      3 December 2013 00: 09
      Are you, in a highly pretentious manner, covering up your illiteracy in matters of the military history of the Great Patriotic War in particular and the Second World War in general?
  65. Lesnik
    0
    1 December 2013 23: 04
    The controversy is pointless No.
    1. +1
      1 December 2013 23: 07
      I agree. Just hooked
  66. +1
    1 December 2013 23: 05
    In 41 we lost almost our entire regular army! Trained! By winter, the last of its remnants were transferred from the Far East. They pushed the Germans back hundreds of kilometers from Moscow! But they themselves died there... That’s it, there was nothing more...
    Quote: bagatura
    Well, the main conclusion from the Battle of Kursk, it seems to me, is that we still did not know how to fight.


    Well... it’s good that the Russian said it this time! Why couldn't they? Who is guilty? Hans knew how to fight in 1939 and then, but the Red Army taught how to fight in the movement...these lessons were bloody! Millions died while he taught something... And eternal glory to those who won and survived in spite of everything!
  67. Old scoop
    0
    1 December 2013 23: 11
    “Military historians around the world, of course, have long described the course of the entire battle, second by second, endlessly arguing about its course, plans, losses and results. Now we know that in fact the battle lasted seven days and that there was no end-to-end attack by two powerful avalanches of tanks, and that there was a Soviet frontal attack by German tanks, temporarily on the defensive, and that this led to heavy losses.We also know that, in addition to orders and directives, hundreds of thousands of soldiers breathed life into the multi-colored arrows on the headquarters maps at Hitler's headquarters and Stalin's office. It was at the cost of their blood that the fate of the Prokhorov battle was decided, the road to which began long before that July day..."
    After reading this paragraph, I stopped reading and began to doubt the author’s mental health. That is, the Germans did not attack, it was the Red Army that attacked? Why then was a defense in depth created? Bullshit or gelding, your choice.
    1. Lesnik
      0
      1 December 2013 23: 18
      Do you know the concept of "loss of initiative"? or inflicting such losses on the enemy after which he loses his “ability to resist”? "meeting engagement"?
    2. Amfitsion
      +3
      1 December 2013 23: 24
      That's not the point. And the fact is that the Germans broke through all three strategic lines of defense of the Voronezh Front, so much so that they had to feverishly introduce two armies from the Steppe Front, the 5th Guards A and the 5th Guards TA, into a defensive battle; not originally intended for this. And yet, yes, it was in this place and at this time that the SS men switched to temporary defense to repel the attacks of these two armies...
      1. Lesnik
        0
        1 December 2013 23: 28
        Defense differs from offense in that in defense you can only guess (based on intelligence data) where the enemy will deliver the main blow. And in the offensive you are free in your choice
      2. 0
        1 December 2013 23: 29
        Old man, are you for the Reds or for the Whites? No offense. If you are for the truth, wait for the minuses
        1. Lesnik
          +3
          1 December 2013 23: 32
          Quote: Den 11
          Old man, are you for the Reds or for the Whites? No offense. If you are for the truth, wait for the minuses

          Brother, I am for those who “without sparing their blood and even life itself” gave me and my loved ones the right to LIVE
          1. 0
            1 December 2013 23: 41
            My friend, I actually asked Amphicyon. But your credo is also worthy of respect
      3. Eugeniy_369
        +3
        2 December 2013 01: 06
        Quote: Amphitious
        And the fact is that the Germans broke through all three strategic lines of defense of the Voronezh Front, so much so that they had to feverishly introduce two armies from the Steppe Front, the 5th Guards A and the 5th Guards TA, into a defensive battle; not originally intended for this.

        That's right. I'll add my 5 cents.
        The Germans' breakthrough into the defense and their entry into operational space is the reason for the Prokhorov battle. The 5th tank hole was plugged; it was intended for a counterattack after the Germans were exhausted. Alas, the blow from the “Hans” was terrible. These were seasoned, experienced warriors, and the equipment was good, and what’s more important, they knew how to use it. Methodically, systematically, German troops broke through our defenses. I believe that almost all of the German tank elite was gathered on the southern front. This makes the feat of our ancestors immortal.
  68. moskal68
    0
    2 December 2013 00: 07
    And I like Tiger. But the car is too delicate for Russia. And change the tracks during transportation, and the small power reserve, and the staggered arrangement of disks on the chassis. But the optics, gun and radio are better than ours. In addition, the IS-2 BP had separate loading, while the Tiger had one projectile.
    1. Kolovrat77
      +1
      2 December 2013 01: 27
      Quote: 68
      And I like Tiger

      It happens, but the monument was erected by IS (Moscow. Serebryany Bor).

      Quote: 68
      In addition, the IS-2 BP had separate loading, while the Tiger had one projectile.

      And blacks have longer pipisks than Poles (I didn’t check the info). But seriously, I don’t want to develop the topic, but think about the fact that the Germans had to stop the red skating rink, and we had to break into the enemy’s fortified and highly echeloned defenses. Maybe this is the difference in calibers and loading options. correct me if I'm wrong.
  69. moskal68
    0
    2 December 2013 00: 07
    And I like Tiger. But the car is too delicate for Russia. And change the tracks during transportation, and the small power reserve, and the staggered arrangement of disks on the chassis. But the optics, gun and radio are better than ours. In addition, the IS-2 BP had separate loading, while the Tiger had one projectile.
    1. Lesnik
      +3
      2 December 2013 01: 31
      Weapons that are easy to operate, master, in-line, and mass-produced win.
  70. +2
    2 December 2013 01: 46
    I just came in, I had no time, work. I've been racking my brains all day, running.
    It was summer, it was dry, and everyone wrote about the dust, saying that even the aircraft couldn’t work, in general, the 34s were amazingly dusty, the exhaust was down, almost under the harp. Near Prokhorovka the defile was narrow, they came in waves, there were, in principle, more than a hundred tanks on both sides and it was impossible to fit them in. The question is, okay, they cut down the first one and a half to two kilometers, but then you can’t see it, did they hit the sound? That is, the distance of the knife fight went, and there, even Zeiss optics, even a super-armor-piercing gun, a complete counter-strike.
    As for the losses, I’ve been scratching my head for a long time now. Our losses are large, but they have two total and one super-total mobilization. Where did the soldiers go?
    Will anyone tell?
  71. The comment was deleted.
  72. Amfitsion
    +1
    2 December 2013 01: 50
    Quote: perepilka
    As for the losses, I’ve been scratching my head for a long time now. Our losses are large, but they have two total and one super-total mobilization. Where did the soldiers go?
    Will anyone tell?


    The hardware is simple:
    We had total and super-total mobilizations back in 41 and 42. In 41 alone, taking into account the pre-war army, the number of mobilized people amounted to more than 19 million (!!!) people. This is very, very, short.
    1. +1
      2 December 2013 07: 40
      Quote: Amphitious
      We had total and super-total mobilizations back in 41 and 42

      Did they also grab everyone from 16 to 65? I didn't know.
      In 41 alone, taking into account the pre-war army, the number of mobilized people amounted to more than 19 million (!!!) people.
      During the entire war, 34 million passed through the army. If I am not mistaken.
      1. Amfitsion
        +1
        2 December 2013 16: 17
        Are you laughing or do you really not know, in principle, generally known things?
        By the fall of 43, the USSR had run out of human resources.
        http://www.battlefield.ru/mobreserve-25-09-1943.html
        In controlled territories. In the occupied Germans there were about 5 million conscripts, from 17 to 50 years old.

        Do not mislead yourself and others with the word “total”, we and the Germans attach completely different meanings to this word. Until 44, many German factories worked in one shift... And it is also interesting that the absolute maximum number of German Armed Forces occurred at the beginning of 44, on January 1 - almost 11 million people in all types of Armed Forces . And until the summer of 44, the irretrievable losses of the Germans in the East, over 3 years of war, amounted to just over two million people. Front collapses with losses of many hundreds of thousands began in the summer of 44, both in the East and in the West.
        And so, according to Mulholland, on the Eastern Front on July 1, 43, there were 188 German divisions out of 287 available. This is before the Second Front and before the landings in Sicily and Italy. Then this figure only fell, for example, in August 44 there were 130 divisions on the Eastern Front, and 142 on all other fronts.
        1. +1
          2 December 2013 23: 59
          Quote: Amphitious
          http://www.battlefield.ru/mobreserve-25-09-1943.html

          Only that in Germany this problem arose already at the beginning of 43.
          . And until the summer of 44, the irretrievable losses of the Germans in the East, over 3 years of war, amounted to just over two million people.
          .As of June 22.06.41, 1,2, the reserve army in Germany was 500000 million. Conscripts, at a minimum, 37 per year, only from the territory of Germany in 44, until the summer of 3, more than 1942 million, to make up for what a total, regular conscription. 1,3, judging by their data, they could easily have made an advantage by 41 times and crushed the Red Army to smithereens, but, at the end of 30, there was a shortage of HP in the Wehrmacht units, 40-43%. Well, for the sake of humor, you can joke about the number and composition of troops in the units that were in the West in 16. Europe. Our XNUMX-year-old boys were not given Panzerschreks and were not assigned to anti-aircraft guns.
          1. Amfitsion
            0
            3 December 2013 00: 35
            So you sit here and frankly guess? They hope that you are familiar with at least the “ABC” in the form of the work of Müller-Hillebrandt and Soviet sources on the topic of distribution of human resources in Germany dating back to the 50s, probably too optimistic? Take a look at the German losses:

            http://ww2stats.com/cas.html

            Let me quote myself, from another thread, about Stalingrad:
            “Let it be known to you that in 1942 our Active Army received an astronomical figure of 11 reinforcements, these are those who directly went to the front.
            http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2447327
            In the 42nd year, the Germans deployed about 1,8 million soldiers and officers to the Eastern Front. It turns out that against each German soldier we put 7 of our own.
            We produced a tank in 42, taking into account Lend-Lease about 30 vehicles. Germans - less than 000 thousand, of which about 6 went to Africa in 1000. The balance is 42 thousand. In other words, for every German tank we rolled out 5 of our own. For aviation, the gap is even greater. "
            1. +1
              3 December 2013 02: 59
              Quote: Amphitious
              “Let it be known to you that in 1942 our Active Army received an astronomical figure of 11 reinforcements, these are those who directly went to the front.
              http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2447327
              In the 42nd year, the Germans deployed about 1,8 million soldiers and officers to the Eastern Front. It turns out that against each German soldier we put 7 of our own.

              Replenishment: Military schools, training, Far East, etc.
              They usually transfer them to places where it sucks.
              T-60 and T-70 are also tanks.
              Will we count German Hanomages, Stugs, etc.?
              Quote: Amphitious
              For aviation, the gap is even greater. "

              Horrible! A third of the military budget is down the drain.
              1. Amfitsion
                0
                3 December 2013 03: 36
                ----Replenishment: Military schools, training, Far East, etc.
                They usually transfer it to where it sucks. -----
                In plain English: the active army, the fronts, received 11,25 million reinforcements, both on the march and as part of new units and formations. And a specific breakdown of who received what and how much. What's unclear here?


                -----T-60 and T-70 are also tanks.
                Will we count German Hanomages, Stugs, etc.?-----

                Certainly. German T-2 and Pz38(t) and vehicles based on them too. And of all the imaginable tanks and self-propelled guns produced in the 42nd with a total number of 5530 pieces, there were 848 and 652, respectively. "Troikas" and cars based on them. including Stugi - 2958 vehicles. "Fours" - as many as 992 for the whole year.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_W
                orld_War_II#Panzer_II

                Not even 6000 as I wrote, but five and a half. Of which at least a thousand went to Africa. That is, during the 42nd, we fielded 7 (seven) of our own on one German tank/self-propelled gun.
                And the same number of their own soldiers against every German. Will you challenge it?
                1. +1
                  3 December 2013 04: 41
                  Quote: Amphitious
                  ----Replenishment: Military schools, training, Far East, etc.
                  They usually transfer it to where it sucks. -----
                  In plain English: the active army, the fronts, received 11,25 million reinforcements, both on the march and as part of new units and formations. And a specific breakdown of who received what and how much. What's unclear here?


                  -----T-60 and T-70 are also tanks.
                  Will we count German Hanomages, Stugs, etc.?-----

                  Certainly. German T-2 and Pz38(t) and vehicles based on them too. And of all the imaginable tanks and self-propelled guns produced in the 42nd with a total number of 5530 pieces, there were 848 and 652, respectively. "Troikas" and cars based on them. including Stugi - 2958 vehicles. "Fours" - as many as 992 for the whole year.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_W

                  orld_War_II#Panzer_II

                  Not even 6000 as I wrote, but five and a half. Of which at least a thousand went to Africa. That is, during the 42nd, we fielded 7 (seven) of our own on one German tank/self-propelled gun.
                  And the same number of their own soldiers against every German. Will you challenge it?

                  All the fronts, I still didn’t understand where the 1,8 Lyama Germans were transferred.
                  German T-2 and Pz38(t) and vehicles based on them too. And of all the imaginable tanks and self-propelled guns produced in the 42nd with a total number of 5530 pieces, there were 848 and 652, respectively. "Troikas" and cars based on them. including Stugi - 2958 vehicles. "Fours" - as many as 992 for the whole year.
                  That is, armored personnel carriers, on which a couple of MGs were standardly stuck, mortars, anti-tank guns, large weapons (rarely), despite the fact that there are 5 or 6 varieties of them, we don’t count. By the way, what’s the 42 data?, otherwise we have 41st Also 2800 34th made and not a single armored personnel carrier
  73. Cheetah
    +1
    2 December 2013 02: 14
    Glory to them HEROES. Thanks to whom we live
  74. Cheetah
    0
    2 December 2013 02: 14
    Glory to them HEROES. Thanks to whom we live
  75. +3
    2 December 2013 16: 32
    Our tanks were strong and fast, that’s a fact. But the Germans
    + crews are more trained
    + all tanks have a walkie-talkie
    + combat experience of almost 80% of tankers
    + air supremacy (especially at the beginning of the war)
    + Especially the Germans have always welcomed the initiative in contrast to the Red Army, which was frightened by 1937

    and As Katukov said, “we began to win only when the battlefield began to remain behind us”
    since our damaged tanks mostly returned to service after minor repairs, unlike the German ones.
  76. +1
    2 December 2013 18: 40
    I believe that on the Kursk Bulge our military leaders drew up a completely adequate plan for a defensive battle. Yes, they didn’t take into account the ocher... penetrating ability of the Germans, their organization and fire pressure. But for this case there were 5A and 5 Guards. TA + additional defensive lines. One should also take into account the changed organizational structure of our artillery units, especially the creation of PTAP (anti-tank artillery regiments) and IPTAP and IPTP (fighter anti-tank artillery and conventional regiments), which showed themselves (namely in defense) very well, as a result of which the Germans had to “to gnaw through” and not “to break through.” In addition, the Germans had no other choice.. It’s like in chess “he who has an advantage must attack under the threat of losing this advantage.” The Germans, despite Stalingrad, still had an advantage, mainly in the material and technical component and the organization of military formations, allowing them to solve more extensive combat missions taking into account the specific course of the battle, however, the Red Army, in my opinion, underestimated the tactical preparedness of the German troops, for which was paid for by breaking through several lines of defense. The “penetrating” power of German tank formations faded away precisely due to the fact that the Red Army created organizational structures for this particular defensive operation, which did not stop, but forced the Germans to use disproportionate forces and means to break through the defense, resulting in not even a very successful The attack of Rotmistrov's army made it possible to stop the German breakthrough to Kursk. Gambit - give a strike force of 5 Guards. T.A. for stopping the German offensive - loss of German initiative - impossibility of a German offensive - loss of the battle by the Germans. The loss was not tactical (the Germans lost no more than ours), but strategically (the forces accumulated by the Red Army could now choose the place and time of the offensive).
  77. The comment was deleted.
  78. Jedi
    -1
    2 December 2013 19: 11
    Quote: ramin_serg
    Senior Lieutenant
    ramin_serg AZ Today, 16:32

    Our tanks were strong and fast, that’s a fact.

    our tanks are a fact... and honor and praise to our tank crews that in this sad city they “pulled out” the war with the help of the bourgeois truth...
  79. Jedi
    -2
    2 December 2013 19: 14
    if the Anglo-Americans did not help us, there would be no our country now and there would be nothing to be proud of ...
    1. Lesnik
      0
      2 December 2013 21: 25
      Quote: Jedi
      if the Anglo-Americans did not help us, there would be no our country now and there would be nothing to be proud of ...
    2. typhoon7
      +1
      2 December 2013 23: 24
      What kind of help? They got involved in the war when the Union was already cleaning up Europe, and their lend-lease amounted to 3 percent of what we issued, and this was not help, they literally scraped out all our gold. But ours had to, at the request of the allies, launch an offensive in order to pull over a dozen divisions, because they were crushing these same allies. Listen more to our veterans and less to Discovery and Obama. By the way, after the victory, Zhukov managed to break into the amers a little so that they knew their place, and Kozhedub managed to single-handedly bring down two vaunted mustangs over Berlin, which brought down two of our pilots, who did not expect such meanness from the “allies”. In general, they are better at lying than at fighting.
      1. Amfitsion
        -2
        3 December 2013 00: 11
        By God, kindergarten, pants with straps...
  80. Jedi
    0
    2 December 2013 19: 20
    tigers may be burning... but not in the numbers the author wants... and the author didn’t wonder how much grief our tank crews would have suffered if there were not a ton of tigers, but at least five thousand?
  81. Jedi
    0
    2 December 2013 19: 20
    tigers may be burning... but not in the numbers the author wants... and the author didn’t wonder how much grief our tank crews would have suffered if there were not a ton of tigers, but at least five thousand?
    1. 0
      3 December 2013 00: 19
      Quote: Jedi
      and the author did not ask himself how much grief our tank crews would have suffered if there had been not a ton of tigers, but at least five thousand?

      And you didn’t ask yourself the question of how much grief the German tank crews would have suffered with this ratio...
      1. +1
        3 December 2013 00: 23
        Quote: svp67
        But you didn’t ask yourself the question of how much grief the German tank crews would have suffered with this ratio.

        We need to resolve the issue with the ratio. Just +3500 tigers, or +3500 tigers minus 4000 panthers. Or something else. I really, really don’t like the first option.
        1. 0
          3 December 2013 00: 30
          Quote: Kars
          We need to resolve the issue with the ratio. Just +3500 tigers, or +3500 tigers minus 4000 panthers. Or something else. I really, really don’t like the first option.

          And this is the ratio:
          +3500 Tigers, +4000 Panthers and -7000 T4 and -3000 Hetzers?
          1. +1
            3 December 2013 00: 32
            Quote: svp67
            +3500 tigers, +4000 panthers and -7000 T4?

            change 1 to 1 (even less) medium to heavy? I would agree if I were the Germans.
            1. +1
              3 December 2013 00: 39
              Quote: Kars
              If I were the Germans, I would agree.

              But I wouldn’t really, because the production of an additional 3500 Tiger tanks would have quickly consumed all the alloy steel reserves and the armor of their tanks would have become “fragile” a year earlier, plus the Tigers were not the most reliable and the best “walkers”, unlike the T4, they had significantly less operational maneuverability
              1. +1
                3 December 2013 00: 50
                Quote: svp67
                But I wouldn’t really, because the production of an additional 3500 Tiger tanks would be consumed quickly

                The fours weren’t made from fical matter either. At worst, they would have sawed off the Tirpitz))))
                Quote: svp67
                not the most reliable and best “walkers”, unlike the T4, they had significantly less operational maneuverability

                The operational mobility of the T4 with its narrow tracks and rather archaic suspension (of course, the Knipsel suspension will not be mentioned by night))) multiplied by, again, a rather low specific power will not allow it to be called a special walker. the fours were taken out at a slightly higher speed, the Tigers simply would not have shot their opponents, and would not have retreated little by little. Having irretrievably lost 1 tiger instead of 5-7 T-4s. Of course, I will not deny that there would have been a need for more technical means, but here too exits are possible. With such a number of linear heavy tanks, the Fritz would have built more Bergs.
                1. 0
                  3 December 2013 10: 12
                  Quote: Kars
                  With such a number of linear heavy tanks, the Krauts would have built more Bergs.

                  and they would also have had time to strengthen and redo all the bridges... Then they would definitely have “been bent” back in 1944
                  1. +1
                    3 December 2013 10: 54
                    Quote: svp67
                    and they would also have time to strengthen and redo all the bridges...

                    Just like the Tigers fought, and so did the Panthers. And why do they do it all? In the USSR, especially since the majority of bridges and simple tanks simply didn’t hold up.
                    So such a sharp jump in the quality of armored vehicles would hardly have allowed the loss of Soviet armored vehicles to remain at the real level --- 23 tanks in 500 and 1943 in 23, which would have greatly affected the offensive impulse of the Soviet troops, and it is unknown when Nikopol with its manganese
  82. 0
    2 December 2013 19: 40
    Quote: Jedi
    if the Anglo-Americans did not help us, there would be no our country now and there would be nothing to be proud of ...

    The Anglo-Americans helped us because they understood that they could not stop Germany without the USSR. The USSR was the critical mass that was able to tip the scales in deciding for the Anglo-Saxons who to help (Britain is nearby, only to cross the English Channel, and the German divisions in Brittany, Normandy, there was only a throw through the Pas-de-Calais) - communism is better than fascism, because fascism is much closer. Plus, the old British principle - “Britain has no allies, Britain has interests”
    The result is another British scam designed to stimulate the weakening of European powers. So again Germany clashed with Russia (USSR), as in the time of Frederick II. Only the Britons did not take into account that there was also the United States, which got involved in the war after the winner was determined. Finish off Germany. As a result, the Anglo-Saxons sold (and did not give us!!) valuable strategic raw materials, because the Germans and fascism were much more dangerous to them than the USSR. Ours pulled out the rotten sting of Germany (fascism) - and the Britons and the USA allowed the corpse of Germany to be sucked out. But you can’t build prosperity on corpse poison.
    1. 0
      3 December 2013 20: 57
      It was in December 1941 that the winner was determined?!
  83. Jedi
    +1
    2 December 2013 20: 15
    Quote: DATO8791
    - They cannot stop Germany without the USSR. The USSR was the critical mass that was able to tip the scales in deciding for the Anglo-Saxons who to help (B

    and who stopped the Germans in 39? Did the English run to London and shout “help, they are killing us”? and I, as part of the Russian people, do not want to be a “critical mass”...
  84. -1
    2 December 2013 20: 42
    The article is TOTAL SHIT not true. At least this scribbler would bother to read REAL memories and especially NUMBERS of losses... It seems that this soldier served and continues to serve in the Wehrmacht...
  85. Jedi
    -3
    2 December 2013 20: 51
    that's it... everyone has an Internet, read it, look through it, and then say...
    1. 0
      3 December 2013 21: 06
      No comments required there...
  86. Jedi
    -2
    2 December 2013 21: 17
    Quote: Jedi


    The article is TOTAL SHIT not true. I should at least bother to read this scribbler

    didn’t you bother to read it yourself? win-loss ratio? in tanks, planes and ships? or is it easier to be crazy??
  87. Jedi
    -3
    2 December 2013 21: 46
    Quote: DATO8791
    . But you can’t build prosperity on corpse poison.

    Whose corpse poison? It is necessary not to mock and not to cower, but to say thank you to the Anglo-Americans for SAVING us in a difficult moment..
  88. Jedi
    -2
    2 December 2013 22: 45
    yes, yes, yes, so there’s nothing to answer? Have you looked on the Internet? stupid people...
  89. Jedi
    -3
    2 December 2013 22: 51
    Why did the English defend their country and we didn’t? why are you silent? you are a patriot...
    1. +3
      2 December 2013 22: 58
      Quote: Jedi
      Why did the English defend their country and we didn’t?

      But did they really defend? They lost the colonies. Not all of them, but some. The army on the continent was in trouble, having abandoned a heavy weapon at Dunkirk and without the anti-tank ditch named after the English Channel, it’s not yet known how it would have ended.
      By the way, with such a quick defeat they screwed the USSR.
  90. Jedi
    0
    2 December 2013 22: 53
    I'm hearing you..
  91. Jedi
    0
    2 December 2013 22: 55
    Why are you silent? ashamed?
  92. Jedi
    -3
    2 December 2013 23: 10
    Quote: Kars
    But did they really defend? They lost the colonies. Not all of them, but some. The army on the continent was in trouble, having abandoned a heavy weapon at Dunkirk and there was no anti-tank ditch for them

    yes they stood up, unlike us
    1. +2
      2 December 2013 23: 53
      Quote: Jedi
      yes they stood up, unlike us

      You are confusing something. And you seem to forget that Great Britain is an island.
      And after WWII, the British surrendered their positions in favor of the United States.


      And yet you will have to decipher what it means..defended..?
    2. +1
      3 December 2013 00: 05
      Quote: Jedi
      yes they stood up, unlike us

      I absolutely agree with you, while our grandfathers were fighting on the battlefields, the English stood and stood on their island, and only in 1944, in company with the Yankees, they finally decided to step forward, and I think so only because if they had stayed a little longer on your own island, you wouldn’t have to go anywhere...
  93. moskal68
    +1
    2 December 2013 23: 11
    Quote: Forestman
    Weapons that are easy to operate, master, in-line, and mass-produced win.
    In! This is exactly what I wanted to say, but I was too lazy to write.
    1. Jedi
      -3
      2 December 2013 23: 14
      agree with me who caused more damage to the Germans...
      1. +1
        3 December 2013 00: 23
        Quote: Jedi
        agree with me who caused more damage to the Germans...

        I think it won’t be difficult for you to calculate the damage that the Angles inflicted every year during the SIX years of their confrontation with the Teutons, and what our grandfathers did in FOUR years
        1. Amfitsion
          +1
          3 December 2013 00: 48
          Tell me, this is very interesting, honestly. WWII was a war of resources, first of all, of industries and economies.
          I’m not making any jokes here, but if you don’t agree, correct me. For example, the submarines alone cost Germany 5,5 billion Reichsmarks. This is 55 T-IV tanks in cost - more than the Nevsky produced all armored vehicles during the WHOLE war. And aircraft, for example, in 000, generally accounted for 43% of Germany’s arms costs. For comparison: tanks - 40%, cars - 7%, ammunition - 4,2%. This is from Soviet sources. And 28,5% of the same aircraft were knocked out by the Allies, right? So everything is relative.
          1. +2
            3 December 2013 02: 02
            Quote: Amphitious
            For example, the submarines alone cost Germany 5,5 billion Reichsmarks. This is 55 T-IV tanks at a cost

            Minus the restructuring of a shipyard into a steam locomotive, tractor, or carriage building plant.
            And aircraft, for example, in 43, generally accounted for 40% of Germany’s arms costs.
            And no one insisted on financing the Me-262, they would have riveted the Gustavs and Yu-88
            For comparison: tanks - 7%, cars - 4,2%, ammunition - 28,5%. This is from Soviet sources.
            Did Soviet sources take Czechoslovakia and France into account?
            And 70% of the same aircraft were knocked out by the Allies, right?
            The “green asses” near Leningrad ended, the allies lost their shit when they met Kozhedub, and Hartman “defeated” his entire squadron, the same allies, and they handed him over to ours, for “combat merits”, so he probably spawned .. Well, everything is relative.
            1. Amfitsion
              0
              3 December 2013 02: 28
              ----Minus the restructuring of the shipyard into a steam locomotive, tractor, or carriage building.------
              And did we really have to rebuild, for example, the Krasnoye Sormovo plant, which previously produced submarines?

              -----And no one insisted on financing the Me-262, they would have riveted the Gustavs and Yu-88----
              German aviation costs: 1940 - 38,5%; 1941- 40,8; 1942 -41,5%; 1943 -40,5%. What the hell are Me-262s?

              ----Did Czechoslovakia and France take into account in Soviet sources?-----
              Can you give the share of these countries in exact numbers/pieces/tons/percentages, by production range?

              ----- "Green asses" near Leningrad are over, the allies failed when they met Kozhedub, -----
              And how does this negate the fact that Germany lost 80% of its exterminators during the six years of war not on the Eastern Front?
              Even if Kozhedub shot down these two planes (which is not confirmed anywhere and by any documents from the Americans), how does this isolated incident involving the best ace of the USSR Air Force confirm the superiority of Soviet tactical aviation? Finn Juutilainen, Ilmari shot down 94 Soviet planes, all confirmed - do we conclude about the total superiority of the Finnish Air Force over the Soviet?
              1. +1
                3 December 2013 02: 44
                Quote: Amphitious
                And did we really have to rebuild, for example, the Krasnoye Sormovo plant, which previously produced submarines?

                And how many tanks were made there?
                German aviation costs: 1940 - 38,5%; 1941- 40,8; 1942 -41,5%; 1943 -40,5%. What the hell are Me-262s?
                They started making the Me-262 right in 41, again, such money was shouting, why were there so few planes? Long-range bombers were generally shoved under the tail.
                Finn Juutilainen, Ilmari shot down 94 Soviet planes, all confirmed - do we conclude that the Finnish Air Force is completely superior to the Soviet Air Force?
                Hartman also had everything confirmed, with a photo machine gun and a wingman.
                1. Amfitsion
                  0
                  3 December 2013 03: 42
                  "During the Great Patriotic War, the Krasnoe Sormovo plant produced: 12132 T-34 tanks, in 1941, 97,5 thousand 203-mm shells and 195 thousand 107-mm high-explosive fragmentation shells were produced. In 1942, 107-mm and 203-mm shells were discontinued, and during 1943, 790 thousand pieces of 76-mm shell shells were manufactured, 51171 nozzle caps for the M-8, 1116 FAB-250 heads were cast, 200 20-mm (M-93688) rocket casings and 13 M-123 missile casings were assembled.

                  During the Great Patriotic War, the Krasnoye Sormovo plant delivered 27 submarines to the fleet, of which 10 boats of the IX series and 17 boats of the XII series, 20 were repaired. Before the war, 33 boats were delivered along with the Pike-type boats. 60 submarines - this is the total number of submarines supplied to the Navy by the Krasnoye Sormovo plant in the 30s of the 20th century and during the Great Patriotic War. During the war years, the Sormovo plant accounted for 43,1% of the submarines produced in the country."

                  http://www.dissercat.com/content/deyatelnost-zavoda-krasnoe-sormovo-po-realizats

                  ii-proektov-oboronnoi-promyshlennosti-sssr-19


                  So, the Germans had one and a half dozen of these “Sormovo”, and most were much more powerful than this. Who throughout the war worked exclusively for the needs of the Navy.

                  -----They started making Me-262 right in 41, again, such money was screaming, why were there so few planes? Long-range bombers were generally shoved under the tail. -----

                  I can only recommend reading fundamental works on the German economy in WWII
                  1. 0
                    3 December 2013 19: 19
                    More than 262 units of Me-1000 were produced!
                2. Amfitsion
                  +1
                  3 December 2013 03: 44
                  -----Hartman also had everything confirmed, by a photo-machine gun and a wingman.-----
                  And this is General Ignarov, ask about Hartman. And so flood is nothing. Why write if you have nothing to constructively object to? If only you had the last word?
  94. moskal68
    0
    2 December 2013 23: 15
    Quote: Kolovrat77
    Quote: 68
    And I like Tiger

    It happens, but the monument was erected by IS (Moscow. Serebryany Bor).

    Quote: 68
    In addition, the IS-2 BP had separate loading, while the Tiger had one projectile.

    And blacks have longer pipisks than Poles (I didn’t check the info). But seriously, I don’t want to develop the topic, but think about the fact that the Germans had to stop the red skating rink, and we had to break into the enemy’s fortified and highly echeloned defenses. Maybe this is the difference in calibers and loading options. correct me if I'm wrong.
    I didn't read the entire article. I wrote about the technical pros and cons of the Tiger in the answer. No matter what holy feelings might motivate a tanker on a BT-7, he will not be able to defeat the same Tiger, well, unless he knocks down the truck.
    1. Lesnik
      +1
      2 December 2013 23: 33
      BT, like the T-34, was not created to fight Tigers wink
      1. Alex 241
        +4
        3 December 2013 00: 15
        grandfather and the Germans
        In the yard, the Mercedes scratched the door of the Oka.
        A grandfather gets out of the Oka screaming...
        A guy got out of the Mercedes and slapped his grandfather in the face:
        -My last name is Geltser! My father is a judge...
        The grandfather sat down, accelerated and rammed the Mercedes, saying:
        -I rammed tanks during the war, and here all sorts of Germans will beat me!
        Geltser and the swearers fell out of the car, waving a bat towards the Oka...
        Three young men separated from the courtyard bench, one of them suddenly jumped up to the raging “son” and knocked out the bastard with a short blow to the jaw.
        “Who are you sons?” asked the old man.
        ...Partisans, father... partisans......
        The balconies of the multi-storey building gave a standing ovation...
        1. Lesnik
          +1
          3 December 2013 00: 20
          FIVE POINTS TO YOU AND THE PARTIZANS good
        2. +1
          3 December 2013 00: 24
          Hello Sash! The story is beautiful, but about the three well done guys and the applause today it is hardly believable. Unfortunately! And there are already a lot of grandfathers left who rammed tanks...
          1. Alex 241
            +1
            3 December 2013 00: 26
            Hi Sash, I really wish this was true.
            1. 0
              3 December 2013 00: 30
              Quote: Alex 241
              Hi Sash, I really wish this was true.

              I hope the genes will not break, and the next generation will be more sober in this regard?
              1. Alex 241
                +2
                3 December 2013 00: 35
                Quote: studentmati
                I hope the genes will not break, and the next generation will be more sober in this regard?

                This can’t be eradicated from us, San! You’re right, it’s at the genetic level!
                1. +2
                  3 December 2013 00: 37
                  Not a tiger, of course. Caught on Shushpanzer.
                2. 0
                  3 December 2013 00: 37
                  Quote: Alex 241
                  This cannot be eradicated from San! You are right, this is at the genetic level!

                  We are with you again for the night about the eternal! Well, where should we go if we were brought up this way?
                  1. Alex 241
                    +1
                    3 December 2013 00: 39
                    It’s always in Sash’s head, it doesn’t give him peace.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +1
                      3 December 2013 00: 47
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      It’s always in Sash’s head, it doesn’t give him peace.

                      Tank of my city. Marshal of the Armored Forces Oleg Aleksandrovich Losik personally erected it in 1983!
                3. +3
                  3 December 2013 00: 38
                  ______________
        3. +2
          3 December 2013 00: 25
          Quote: Alex 241
          The grandfather sat down, accelerated and rammed the Mercedes, saying:
          -I rammed tanks during the war, and here all sorts of Germans will beat me!

          "Oka" is power!

          No, not this one, this one
          http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/68n/n68n-s05.shtml
    2. +1
      3 December 2013 00: 17
      Quote: 68
      I didn't read the entire article. I wrote about the technical pros and cons of the Tiger in the answer. No matter what holy feelings might motivate a tanker on a BT-7, he will not be able to defeat the same Tiger, well, unless he knocks down the truck.

      So, purely theoretically, “catch it on the slide.”
      BT below, "Tiger" crawls out and substitutes the bottom.28 mm. The 20k normal has armor penetration of 52mm, 30 degrees to the normal - 43mm. The "tiger" has a transmission in front, after the first shell it is in the trash, then, even if you drive in all the ammunition, it does not move. It is possible to force, purely theoretically, BT, much more agile.
      1. Lesnik
        0
        4 December 2013 00: 46
        Quote: perepilka
        So, purely theoretically, “catch it on the slide.”
        BT below, "Tiger" crawls out and substitutes the bottom.28 mm. The 20k normal has armor penetration of 52mm, 30 degrees to the normal - 43mm. The "tiger" has a transmission in front, after the first shell it is in the trash, then, even if you drive in all the ammunition, it does not move. It is possible to force, purely theoretically, BT, much more agile.

        Pro-poor arguments negative
  95. Jedi
    0
    2 December 2013 23: 16
    let's continue to argue
  96. +1
    3 December 2013 00: 52
    Quote: Jedi
    let's continue to argue

    angry or drinks laughing
  97. The comment was deleted.
  98. moskal68
    0
    3 December 2013 08: 20
    Quote: Forestman
    BT, like the T-34, was not created to fight Tigers wink
    This is what I said, for example.
  99. moskal68
    0
    3 December 2013 08: 41
    Quote: perepilka
    Quote: 68
    I didn't read the entire article. I wrote about the technical pros and cons of the Tiger in the answer. No matter what holy feelings might motivate a tanker on a BT-7, he will not be able to defeat the same Tiger, well, unless he knocks down the truck.

    So, purely theoretically, “catch it on the slide.”
    BT below, "Tiger" crawls out and substitutes the bottom.28 mm. The 20k normal has armor penetration of 52mm, 30 degrees to the normal - 43mm. The "tiger" has a transmission in front, after the first shell it is in the trash, then, even if you drive in all the ammunition, it does not move. It is possible to force, purely theoretically, BT, much more agile.
    I don't remember exactly. On the Kursk Bulge, either the T-50 or the T-70 knocked out the Ferdinands. By detonation of the BC. Thankfully, she's a clumsy fool.
  100. Jedi
    0
    3 December 2013 15: 16
    Well, everything is clear... they started talking about grandfathers... my grandfather went through the whole war...

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