Military Review

"Tigers" are burning

290
Under this 9 headline in July 1943, a front-line report was published in the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper, from which Soviet people found out about the new German offensive on the Kursk Bulge that started four days ago. On the same day, a battle began in the fields of an unknown until then to the village of Prokhorovka, which became the apotheosis of the grandiose clash of two opposing armies near Kursk.


"Tigers" are burning

Military historians of the whole world, of course, have long and secondly painted the course of the whole battle, arguing endlessly about its course, plans, losses and results. Now we know that in fact the battle lasted seven days and that there was no through attack of two powerful avalanches tanksand that there was a Soviet frontal attack of German tanks, temporarily switched to defense, and that this led to heavy losses. We also know that, in addition to orders and directives, hundreds of thousands of soldiers breathed life into colorful arrows on staff maps at Hitler’s headquarters and Stalin’s office. At the price of their blood it was decided the fate of the Prokhorov battle, the road to which began long before that July day ...

“There must be no failures! ..”

With these words, in May 1943 of the year, Hitler concluded the final meeting with his generals on the operation “Citadel”? - the plan of the summer offensive of 1943. But, alas, despite such confidence of the German Supreme Commander, the military история She knew many examples when a well-planned and prepared operation was doomed to failure long before it began. Never before had Soviet intelligence been able to penetrate so deeply into the plans of the German command and so accurately determine the composition and resources of the enemy forces. Information from scouts Sandor Rado, John Cancross, Nikolai Kuznetsov, Alexander Aleksakhin, NKVD and GRU task forces, partisans and underground workers, military, aviation and intelligence has become one of the main building blocks of a future Soviet victory. The obtained information allowed Marshal G.? K.? Zhukov to propose his plan of action at the meeting with Stalin already on April 12, 1943: “I consider the transition of our troops on the offensive in the coming days to prevent the enemy inappropriate. It will be better if we exhaust the enemy on our defenses, knock out his tanks, and then, having introduced fresh reserves, transferring to a general offensive, we will finally finish off the main grouping of the enemy. ”

This plan was approved by the Stavka and made it possible for the first time in the history of military art that the Red Army moved on to strategic defense with its numerical superiority.

On the contrary, the plan of the German operation “Citadel” was to surround and destroy the Central and Voronezh fronts defending on the Kursk salute in the general direction to Kursk with powerful counter blows from the Orel and Belgorod regions, and then develop an offensive with the aim of reaching a deep Soviet rear and creating a threat to Moscow.

The main idea of ​​the German plan was to create a significant superiority on the directions of the main attacks and, using tank units, massively quickly break through the defenses before the approach of large Soviet reserves. The enemy believed that the suddenness and speed of action, multiplied by the high penetrating ability of tank divisions, their best tactical training and high-quality technical superiority, would ensure success. The role of the main striking force in the upcoming offensive was assigned to the Wehrmacht, who received everything in large quantities, for weapons of the Wehrmacht, first of all heavy Tvi Tiger tanks, medium Panther TV tanks, Ferdinand and Brumbar assault weapons, and FokkeWulf190 assault guns "And attack aircraft" Henschel129 ".

The tasks of the enemy's strike groups in the operation “Citadel” were significantly “shorter” than those set by the Wehrmacht in 1941 – 1942. For example, the troops of Army Group Center should have advanced 75 km, and Army Group South, 125 km. But for such a “short” offensive, powerful forces were attracted: about 70% tank, up to 30% motorized, more than 20% infantry divisions operating on the Soviet-German front, as well as over 65% aviation. The German command sent more than 900 thousand personnel, about 10 thousand guns and mortars, more than 2,7 thousand tanks and assault guns and more than 2 thousand aircraft to carry out the operation "Citadel". These were selective troops of the Wehrmacht and the SS, commanded by the most experienced German generals: E. Manstein, G. Kluge, V. Model, G. Got, P. Hausser, and others.


The Soviet command, in turn, placed its stakes on the deep separation of the combat forces of troops and defensive positions with a well-developed system of trenches, communication lines and other engineering structures, on new tactics of anti-tank defense, the use of large strategic reserves and high combat spirit of soldiers and officers, markedly increased after the victory at Stalingrad. Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, more than 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft, excluding the backup Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in people 1,4 times, in artillery - in 1,9, in tanks and ACS - in 1,2 and on airplanes - 1,4 times.
The total depth of the defense prepared by the Soviet troops at Kursk was 250 – 300 km.

On the Central and Voronezh fronts there were 5 – 6 defensive lines and lines. The first two lanes were a tactical defense zone, and the third - an army defensive line. In addition, there were still 2 – 3 front-line. Along with this, a defensive line was created for the troops of the Steppe Front, and a state line of defense was prepared along the left bank of the Don. In the most important areas, the defensive lines were occupied by the troops with the expectation that even if the enemy succeeds in breaking through the defense of the army, then in the depths he will meet not “operational space,” but a new defense rich in engineering structures. The defense was built primarily as an anti-tank, the depth of which near Kursk for the first time in the war reached 30 – 35 km. It was based on anti-tank strongholds, built, as a rule, in battalion defense areas, and anti-tank areas. Cannon and howitzer artillery was prepared for firing at tanks with direct fire. It was supposed to use flamethrowing units to fight enemy tanks. More than 1 million anti-tank mines were installed in front of the front line and in the depth of defense, many tens of kilometers of anti-tank barriers were erected: ditches, escarpes, counter eskarps, ridges, forest obstructions, etc.? An important element of the anti-tank defense became mobile units obstacles. The population mobilized by the local authorities and involved in the construction of defensive fortifications provided enormous assistance to the front forces.


In April, 43-th in the Central and Voronezh fronts lanes more than 100 thousand people were involved in defensive works, and in June almost 300 thousand. Together with the troops, they dug more than 9 thousand km of trenches and communication lines, built 686 bridges, restored more than 2 thousand km of roads. In two months, more than 300 thousand carriages with troops and equipment were delivered under the Kursk. All this was worth the colossal human labor, but it’s not for nothing that they think that ten liters of sweat preserve a liter of blood ...

Numerous delays in the beginning of the German offensive, caused by the desire to use more new tanks, gave the Soviet troops three invaluable months to prepare and improve their defenses. And this time was not wasted. A certain calculation was made by the Soviet command on the use of the new SU152 and SU122 self-propelled artillery systems, the new PTN 1,5 – 2,5 bombs, the new cumulative projectiles of the 460 BP BP, the new fighter La 5 FN.

By the beginning of July, two huge armies concentrated enormous forces on each other for a decisive blow. Voltage was rising in the hot July air ...

Doomed "Citadel"

When the 7 on July 5 in the morning of 1943, after the start of the expected German offensive, the commander of the Central Front, Colonel-General KK Rokossovsky, reported to him on the direct line to the Supreme Command General Headquarters, Stalin asked with a chill: ? ”“ To the fact that our calculations were fully confirmed, which means that the outcome of the battle is predetermined! ”The future marshal replied cheerfully.

The beginning of the battle immediately took a grand scale and was extremely tense. But it soon became clear that the German offensive was not evolving according to plan. The blows of the German groupings were in the nature of gnawing Soviet positions. It was only at the cost of huge losses that they managed to penetrate into our defenses in certain sectors. German troops were in the position of a bear in a trap surrounded by hunting dogs. Tanks and infantry were tied up in a maze of Soviet trenches and minefields, continually sending messages “Stopped! Were digging! .. ”The calculations for the capture of Kursk on the second day were clearly inflated.

On the northern face of the Kursk bulge behind the 8 days of desperate efforts, the Germans managed only to penetrate into the defense of the Central Front in the area of ​​width 10 km and depth of 10 – 12 km in the area of ​​the settlement of Olhovatki and Art. Dives Having lost 42 thousand soldiers and officers, before 500 tanks and assault guns, the enemy did not solve any of the tasks and eventually had to stop the offensive and go on the defensive.

The most dramatic events developed on the southern face of the Kursk Bulge in the defense zone of the Voronezh Front, where the battles were distinguished by great bitterness and heavy losses on our part. Here, the nature of the terrain was more favorable to the use of tanks than on the north face, but the front commander, Colonel-General N. F. Vatutin, was unable to determine the location of the main attack of the enemy, which advanced into the depth of the Soviet defense to 35 km. The Germans, who did not have superiority in tanks, skillfully created six-fold superiority in narrow sectors and under the cover of massive air strikes stubbornly rammed our defenses.

The enemy overcame the front page of the Soviet defense in just 17 hours, and although it was very different from the planned German pace, this rate was regarded as rapid in the Red Army Headquarters.


The actions of the enemy were characterized by a high degree of consistency and intensity of the use of fire of all means. For example, groups of 10 – 15 heavy tanks, being beyond the reach of our anti-tank guns and tanks, fired heavy fire on infantry trenches and artillery positions. Under their cover, they attacked medium and light tanks, followed by infantry on armored personnel carriers. Attacks of the enemy were conducted with the powerful support of aviation. Bombers in groups of 50 – 60 aircraft continuously bombed the defenders, although sometimes there were times when enemy aircraft were over the battlefield at the same time before 400 ...

But our troops did not flinch, they cut off the German infantry from the tanks and destroyed it with all kinds of fire, and they broke into hand-to-hand combat with those who broke through into trenches and passages.

In these battles, Soviet gunners used the tactics of the so-called "flashing guns", selected as bait to lure the enemy tanks. "Flashing guns" opened fire on the columns from a great distance, forcing the advancing tanks to deploy on solid minefields and substitute their sides to the batteries that were standing in ambush. Significant damage to enemy tanks inflicted ground attack aircraft, which used new bombs with shaped charges. Soviet attack aircraft pierced the armor of all German tanks, including the "tigers" ...


But the enemy’s tanks and infantry, despite heavy losses, continued to persevere, destroying one anti-tank stronghold after another. By July 9, the Germans stopped raking our defenses with a direct blow and began to look for weak areas in it. This direction, according to the German command, was Prokhorovka, from where it was possible to get to Kursk bypass, considering that the offensive on the northern face of the Kursk Bulge was already choking. It was here that the Soviet command sent reserve armies: 5 guards. tank P.? Rotmistrov and 5 Guards. General A.? Zhadova from the Steppe Front. And the German command opposed them to the 2-th SS Panzer Corps? Hausser. On this site in 35 km for seven days the climax battle of the Kursk battle unfolded.

On the morning of 12 on July 1943, German reconnaissance planes with purple rockets alerted their troops to the approach of Soviet tanks. SS brigadeführer Helmut Becker, commander of the regiment of the SS Division “Dead Head”, recalled: “I noticed clouds of dust on the horizon. And soon from these clouds began to appear Russian tanks. These Russians moved their reserves? I said to my chief of staff and realized that we had lost the battle for Kursk. ”

“Yes, the enemy was brave. All the more our glory! ”

These lines of Konstantin Simonov were written about KhalkhinGol, but they can be safely attributed to the battle of Kursk. We must not forget that, despite the defeat at Stalingrad, the Wehrmacht was still a very strong adversary. The system of training and training of troops, the interaction of the types of troops on the battlefield, the organization of communications and control were without exaggeration the best in the world at that time.


Nazi Germany began preparations for the next “general offensive” on the Eastern Front in April 1943 of the year, mobilizing all its resources and capabilities for this. To compensate for the enormous human losses and to restore the divisions that were defeated in winter battles, the German leadership resorted to total mobilization. For any other operation during the entire period of the Second World War, the military-political leadership of the Third Reich did not prepare as comprehensively, as carefully as for the offensive near Kursk. All tank divisions and a number of infantry divisions were withdrawn from the front edge, where the respite was used to train the troops according to a carefully planned plan. First, classes were conducted on the scale of a platoon, then a company, a battalion, a regiment, and then at the level of divisional exercises. Every square meter of the Kursk bulge was photographed from the air. Starting from company commanders, all the officers commanding the advancing troops spent whole days at the forefront in order to study the terrain and the Soviet defense system. The fire plan and the interaction between artillery and infantry were carefully developed. Especially serious training was conducted to ensure the closest interaction between aviation and ground forces. The morale of the German troops was quite high: they were ready to suffer any losses, but to fulfill all the tasks assigned to them. For the only time during the entire war on the Eastern Front, the German divisions received rest for several weeks before the offensive and were fully staffed and equipped with combat equipment. Thus, the 48 tank corps had more than 300 tanks and 60 assault guns, of which 180 was part of the “Great Germany” division, and 80 of them were new “panthers”. At the cusp of the main attack was the "Hitler's Guard" - the 2-th SS tank corps as part of the SS elite tank divisions Leibstandart, Reich, and Dead Head. “Today,” said Hitler’s address to the troops, which he read on the night before the offensive, “you are launching a great offensive battle that can have a decisive influence on the outcome of the war as a whole. And you should know that everything can depend on the outcome of this battle. ” And the German soldiers acted decisively and skillfully, confident in their superiority.

Peresevshy this time on the "Tiger", the German tank ace Untersturmführer SS Division "Leibstandarte" Michael Wittmann during the Battle of Kursk destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 antitank guns, which amounted to 20% of destroyed them during the war 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns. It was Wittman's battalion that repelled the attack of the 181 of the Soviet tank tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...


8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...

On July 12, in the battle of Prokhorovka, the tank company of the SS division Leibstandard under the command of Obersturmführer Rudolf von Ribbentrop, the son of the foreign minister, was attacked by a large group of tanks T34. The distance was reduced to 175 meters, and the effectiveness of the German guns was neutralized. The battle took place in direct contact. In just one day, Ribbentrop's crew destroyed 14 Soviet tanks ... The commander of the 2 Battalion of the 6 Panzer Division, Major Franz Becke, on the night of July 11, captured the heavily fortified town of Rzhavets. At the same time he personally destroyed the manual anti-tank weapons three Soviet tanks ...


Yes, tactical training, combat experience and determination of German soldiers cost the Soviet side dearly. Now historians characterize the losses of the parties at Kursk as 4: 1 is not in our favor. A loss 5-y Guards. the tank army under Prokhorovka is generally estimated at more than 50% of the initial composition.

But despite our heavy losses, the German offensive turned into a defeat for the enemy. 10 July 1943, the Allies landed on Sicily, thinly opening a second front in Europe, and on July 12, on the day of the Battle of Prokhorovka, the Soviet troops of the Western and Bryansk fronts launched an offensive on the Orel direction according to the plan of Operation Kutuzov. This made senseless further continuation of the offensive. The General Inspector of the German Armored Forces of G.? Guderian wrote: “As a result of the failure of the“ Citadel ”offensive, we suffered a decisive defeat. Needless to say, the Russians were quick to take advantage of the success. And more on the Eastern Front there were no calm days. The initiative is completely transferred to the enemy. "

The main calculation

With the tactical and technical superiority of the Germans and with our numerical and moral superiority, the forces of the parties became approximately equal. The military art of commanders and the combat skills of soldiers and officers came to the fore. Here, the Soviet command relied on the traditional qualities of the Russian soldier - resilience and courage, which over the past two years the war only intensified. This, by the way, was clearly understood by the Germans. This is how Alfred Rubbel, an 503 heavy tank battalion of the tigers, recalled those distant battles of the Tigers: “... We did not expect anything good, because we already knew the Russians as courageous and stubborn soldiers who are very difficult to put to flight. And we had every reason to believe that this would be the case here. Approximately the same thing was told to us by our commanders. ” And the Soviet soldier fully justified the German fears.

Without diminishing the merit of the defenders of the northern flank of the Kursk Bulge, I would like, without going into the course and description of the hostilities, to dwell in more detail on some of the heroic actions of the soldiers and officers of the Voronezh Front, where the most tense situation developed in those July 1943 days. Unlike the Battle of Stalingrad, where mostly infantry took on enemy tank attacks, gunners became heroes of the fighting near Kursk, who stood on their positions until the last breath and the projectile ...

In the morning of July 5, the enemy launched an offensive and threw forward at the 1008 Iptap battery section, Senior Lieutenant Alikhan Gagkaev 35 tanks, including heavy "tigers", and infantry. Reflecting the onslaught, the gunners, along with two neighboring batteries, repulsed two attacks, set fire to 17 tanks, and destroyed up to a company of nazi soldiers. The share personally battery commander had four tanks. When repelling the third attack, when all the guns were disabled, the men switched to grenades and anti-tank guns. Then they grabbed melee in which their commander died.


11 July, when in a fire platoon 199 Guards. artillery regiment guards ml. Lieutenant Rostislav Kushlyansky left only one weapon, he bravely entered into an unequal battle with a large group of tanks. His calculation set fire to three and knocked down five tanks. And when his calculation failed, the commander himself began at the gun and one after another knocked out three more tanks, the last shot at the tank was fired at a distance of six meters ... On the same day, July 11, 1943, in the area of ​​Prokhorovka, accomplished his feat 19-year-old Komsomol of the artillery battalion of the 58-th motorized rifle brigade Guards Art. Sergeant Mikhail Borisov. Its battery was attacked by 19 tigers. Taking advantage of the thick smoke that hid the battery from the enemy, the gunners, letting the tanks at a distance of 500 meters, suddenly opened fire and immediately destroyed two tanks. But with the return fire, in just a few minutes of the battle, the "tigers" shot the entire battery. Of the 28 gunners, only the senior sergeant survived, who remained with the only surviving gun. For 17 minutes of battle, he alone, inducing and loading a weapon, knocked out 7 "tigers". He managed to stop the eighth tank with a shot at close range from a distance of 60 meters, but the return shot was seriously wounded ...

No less selflessly and heroically acted Soviet tankers. Clashes with more sophisticated German tanks, superior to Soviet armor and armament, demanded special courage and military skill ... 6 July 1943, near the village of Yakovlevo, a tank platoon of GW. Lieutenant Voldemar Shalandin from 1y Guards. tank brigade joined the battle with a numerically superior enemy. The crew of his tank as a part of senior sergeants V.G. Kustov, V.F. Lekomtsev and sergeant P.E. Zelenin, acting from ambush, let the enemy tanks go to the distance of a direct shot, and then hit two “tigers” and one medium tank.


But the tank Shalandina was hit and caught fire. On the burning tank, the Guards crew decided to go to a ram and, on the move, crashing into the side of the "tiger", heroically died ... On the same day, on July 6, the tank was Guards. Lieutenant Ivan Butenko from 25y Guards. a tank brigade near the village of Smorodino unexpectedly ran into eight German tanks that were in ambush. A lieutenant shot down one tank with a cannon shot, but the T34 cannon was disabled by an enemy shell. Then the commander rammed one with a strong frontal armor first, and then another German tank. But his tank was also hit. As a result, the driver was killed and the radio operator was seriously injured. Jumping out of a burning tank, the guard lieutenant snatched a pistol from a German officer, shot him and several other tank crews from the crews of the rammed tanks, and then took the killed officer’s documents and under heavy artillery and mortar fire took out the seriously injured radio operator from the battlefield ...

On July 12, on Prokhorovsky field, an enemy shell smashed the tank and another wounded Captain Skripkin, the commander of the 2 battalion of the 181 tank brigade, seriously. The driver Nikolayev and the radio operator Zyryanov dragged the unconscious officer from the tower and sheltered him in a funnel from the projectile. But on the unarmed crew rolled "Tiger". Nikolaev rushed to his burning tank and in a few moments rushed towards the "Tiger". His words were aired: “Guys! I'm going to ram! Saving the commander! Beat the reptiles! ”“ Tiger ”backed away, wanted to turn around and leave, but did not have time. Nikolaev, having dispersed the burning car, rammed the enemy at full speed. A blow of terrible force shook the earth ...


However, probably the hardest trials befell our infantry. Under stormy artillery fire, under continuous bombardment, reflecting tank attacks, tested in battles, impenetrable infantry passed through the thick of the Battle of Kursk in the direct and figurative sense.

5 July 1943, near the village of Maslova Pristan machine-gun company 229-th Guards. rifle regiment under the command of gu. Lieutenant Vladimir Kolesnikov destroyed 300 enemy soldiers and officers in combat, suppressed 14 machine gun points of the enemy, and the commander personally destroyed the Germans from a machine gun to 200. In an unequal fight, the fighters twice went over to the counterattack until they again took possession of their own line at a height where the enemy had not advanced a single step. Being seriously wounded, Kolesnikov categorically refused to leave the battlefield until the company was firmly entrenched in its positions. And only after that he was sent to the hospital.

K 13 July in the platoon of anti-tank guns 284-th Guards. rifle regiment guv. Senior Lieutenant Pavel Shpetnogo left only 9 fighters. The last patrons fighters shot down 6 tanks and died in an unequal battle. When ammunition ran out, Pavel Shpetny with a bunch of anti-tank grenades rushed under the seventh enemy tank.


14 july guv. Sergeant of the Medical Service 13 of the Guards. sd Maria Borovichenko saved the life of the wounded lieutenant Kornienko. She covered him with her body, while she managed to knock out an enemy tank with a grenade, but a shard hit the medical instructor right in the heart. The Soviet soldiers went up to attack under a hurricane lead rain, burned alive in their tanks and self-propelled guns, fired their guns to the last shell, forcing the very vaunted "tigers" to burn, which were to ensure victory for the Germans. This is how the German officer of the General Staff, Adolf von Kilmanzegg, spoke of Soviet soldiers: “The Russians were a very special opponent. Wherever I fought, I did not meet such a willingness to die. "

"... For your friends"

12 July 1943 of the year according to the Orthodox calendar is the day of memory of the holy apostles Peter and Paul. In 1995, a memorial church of Peter and Paul was erected in the village of Prokhorovka. On its walls on the marble slabs are carved the names of more than seven thousand Soviet soldiers and officers who died in this area. A few kilometers from the temple, at the height of 252,2, where 12 July 1943 was the epicenter of the Prokhorovsky tank battle, on the field, which became a symbol of courage and perseverance of the Soviet soldier, a Victory monument was erected - a white stone belfry designed by sculptor V.? Klykova. Three times per hour, every twenty minutes a bell rings on the belfry in memory of the fallen heroes on the Kulikovo, Borodino and Prokhorovsky fields. Under the golden dome, above which the figure of the intercessor of Russia - the Virgin Mary is set, words in the Church Slavonic language are drawn out in large golden letters from the Bible: “I’m more like sowing love, but who will put his soul for his friends”. Let us remember them in our thoughts ...
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290 comments
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  1. maxvet
    maxvet 30 November 2013 08: 18
    28
    “Yes, the enemy was brave. All the more our glory! ”
    nothing more to add!
    1. SergeySK
      SergeySK 30 November 2013 10: 36
      -41 qualifying.
      Empty post!

      Desire lights up ???????
      1. maxvet
        maxvet 1 December 2013 08: 57
        +2
        emotions after reading if you are annoyed hi
        1. Andrey Yuryevich
          Andrey Yuryevich 1 December 2013 17: 01
          +1
          do not pay attention to Maxim, he is just SERGEY ... hi
    2. ytqnhfk
      ytqnhfk 2 December 2013 01: 15
      +2
      I wonder who minus the article ??? For what. For the fact that HOMELAND IS DEFENDED THIS? ETERNAL MEMORY THIS "ETERNALLY ALIVE" IN OUR MEMORY!
    3. catapractic
      catapractic 2 December 2013 21: 21
      0
      quote] “Yes, the enemy was brave. The more our glory! ”[/ Quote] besides strong and able
  2. makarov
    makarov 30 November 2013 08: 25
    26
    Let us remember in the minds of our warriors who died from death the heroes who laid down their lives for the Fatherland.
  3. makarov
    makarov 30 November 2013 08: 25
    +1
    Let us remember in the minds of our warriors who died from death the heroes who laid down their lives for the Fatherland.
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 1 December 2013 17: 02
      +3
      Pasha, the first time I agreed ... drinks
  4. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 30 November 2013 08: 34
    21
    I remembered the film "Liberation", which was shot by Yuri Ozerov, the first series was called "Kursk Bulge". As a child, I watched ten times how much technology, what extras, wonderful actors, shooting from the air. Remember "Shoot! You will see how Russian Major Maximov dies!"
    Great battle, we won, we will not forget!
    1. anip
      anip 30 November 2013 21: 17
      +6
      Quote: Anatol Klim
      The 1st series was called "Kursk Bulge"

      This series is called "Arc of Fire".
      And this movie epic is cool, from early childhood my favorite film, the first time I saw "Liberation" in years, that way, 1973-74.
      1. Anatole Klim
        Anatole Klim 30 November 2013 21: 34
        +1
        Quote: anip
        This series is called "Arc of Fire".

        You’re right, I’ve mistaken, already elderly.
        1. cumastra1
          cumastra1 1 December 2013 15: 21
          +4
          When was this film last shown on television? On May 9, that's all, but it should be more often and during and instead of any serials about bandits and bl so to speak ... dyah. It is necessary to educate people. So as not to write "empty post".
        2. cumastra1
          cumastra1 1 December 2013 15: 21
          0
          When was this film last shown on television? On May 9, that's all, but it should be more often and during and instead of any serials about bandits and bl so to speak ... dyah. It is necessary to educate people. So as not to write "empty post".
      2. Tartary
        Tartary 1 December 2013 16: 37
        +1
        Quote: anip
        And this movie epic is cool, from early childhood my favorite film, the first time I saw "Liberation" in years, that way, 1973-74.

        In those years, we were removed from school and led to a club where several schools watched several episodes at the same time instead, and sometimes after classes.

        It was in those years that I re-read everything that was in the local children's library about the war, after which I turned into an adult ...
  5. DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 30 November 2013 08: 51
    24
    We prepared very carefully for the battle; sniper gunners were searched for. Additionally, anti-aircraft guns were allocated to combat heavy tanks. A lot of sappers did. laying mines almost under the advancing tanks. For the fight against tigers, on the orders of STALIN, SU 152 was created. I read that STALIN collected the directors and designers of the tank plants. He explained that the Germans produced new tanks, our machines could not cope with them. We need a tank capable of fighting the German tigers on equal terms, and gave a month to the deadline. Someone objected that this is unrealistic and there will be no tank of skulls for a month. Stalin replied: it will not be you in a month, but the tank will be !!!!!! After 2 weeks, the SU 152 began testing !!!!!!! I admire our grandfathers and fathers !!!! Thank you for our life !!!!!
    1. lab29
      lab29 30 November 2013 12: 06
      13
      And I not only admire my grandfathers, but also Stalin, how he lacks
    2. Bagatur
      Bagatur 30 November 2013 19: 37
      +7
      Even in the spring of 1942, the Germans already had T-III, IV with an extension of the gun’s barrel, add a walkie-talkie, excellent crew training ... So the Wehrmacht’s technical superiority did not fall from the sky in 1943! Even in 5 TAs, not every tank had a radio link .... how were units controlled?
      1. smile
        smile 30 November 2013 22: 08
        13
        Bagatur
        It would be strange if the Germans did not have technical superiority — all intact industry and resources of almost four hundred million Europe worked conscientiously for them — and our factories evacuated to the East only worked normally for us. And initially Germany excelled us industrially despite our titanic efforts for industrialization. But we even began to catch up with them, and in some ways to overtake them.
        1. Bagatur
          Bagatur 1 December 2013 16: 35
          +2
          Hi smile!

          I totally agree! But do not deny the very fact that not only quantity but also technologically superior! And this is another matter ... Why in the USSR does every radio unit have every unit of equipment and at the level of a battalion in the infantry like the Germans have? Failures need to be considered and as impossibility the Soviet country controls its vast resources ... It was professionalism that the German army, combined with technical (not quantitative) superiority, helped to hold out against the weight of the world for so long ...
    3. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 19: 59
      +4
      Website vspomniv.ru
      Briefly: SU 152 (Shakssi KV): assignment in December 1942, prototype - 25 days later, in February the first production vehicles, production was discontinued by the end of autumn (according to various estimates, 600-700 were produced), from the end of autumn the transition to ISU 152 (IP chassis).
  6. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 30 November 2013 09: 04
    +4
    Why aren't the photos signed?
    When were made, in which place, who is captured?
    One cannot relate to historical photographs like this.
  7. DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 30 November 2013 09: 07
    23
    On Kursk, Wittman shot down not 30 tanks, here you really bent, but 5 or 6, It seems you yourself were wounded. And the fire ram of the mechanic driver NIKOLAEV, amazed another fascist, Otto Karius. He described it in a book, tigers in the mud. The tiger is certainly a very formidable car. And how hard it was for our soldiers to destroy him. Thank you !!!!
    1. samoletil18
      samoletil18 30 November 2013 10: 16
      11
      Our warriors were not kamikaze. In the summaries of losses for "tigers" and "panthers" the bulk of the losses related to damage to the chassis. Engineering support in the Battle of Kursk, coupled with the courage of our soldiers, made these very formidable tanks ordinary. If they did break through, then yes, “not sparing their belly!” Of course, this is only part of the measures to combat heavy armored vehicles.
      A low bow to the victors, and those who gave their lives for the Victory.
      1. samoletil18
        samoletil18 30 November 2013 10: 22
        +3
        This I remember from some forum about Vitman. He specialized more in "Shermans". It is clear that he did not choose the enemy, but somehow I remembered.
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 30 November 2013 12: 23
      13
      8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...
      But this is more like German propaganda during the war. am
      1. I am
        I am 30 November 2013 23: 00
        +3
        yes no, unfortunately this is a historical fact. Only here it is not indicated which tanks were against him. they were light tanks and their guns did not penetrate the armor of this monster. But at the same time, of course, it would not be bad to add how in the end everything for this "ace" ended. And here it is not. but I would like to.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 30 November 2013 23: 05
          +2
          Franz Staudegger survived the war and died on March 16, 1991 in Frankfurt.
          1. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 1 December 2013 16: 58
            +6
            I remember how in 1982, in my ZIL bastard in uniform with a crutch, he rushed .... really OH ??? Frankfurt really was GDRovsky, not western ...
        2. Deniska
          Deniska 2 December 2013 13: 16
          +1
          Let's just imagine. The tiger is a heavy slow tank, the speed of the turret leaves much to be desired. Armor yes excellent !!! But frontal. Caterpillars are open, stern armor is weak. Against him, the T-34 as much as 50 pieces !!! It’s not possible to physically keep track of so many enemy vehicles !!! Yes, they couldn’t pierce it in the forehead, but the sides and stern ?? What Any desperate could not call in from the side ?? And about the persecution: If they couldn’t harm him, then at least they would try to shoot down the tracks to immobilize them, because I think all this is doubtful ..... But this is my opinion!
    3. 31231
      31231 30 November 2013 19: 41
      13
      He also noted the author's use of fabulous German memoirs. He did not even bother to look at the composition of the army of Rotmistrov. His Wittmans and other aces burned one thirty-four. And they never heard of the T-70.
      So the author should work on the analysis and work.
    4. revnagan
      revnagan 30 November 2013 20: 40
      +1
      Quote: DZ_98_B
      The tiger is of course a very formidable car. And how hard it was for our soldiers to destroy him. Thank you !!!!

      But the author writes that the "Tiger" was destroyed even by the fire of the Il-2 attack aircraft. As I read to this point, I did not read further. My grandfather was at the Kursk Bulge, he was telling ...
      1. corn
        corn 30 November 2013 21: 43
        +5
        Website battlefield.ru
        The bomb charging of the IL-2 included up to 192 PTAB-2,5-1,5 aerial bombs in 4-x small bombs cassettes (48 pieces each) or up to 220 pieces when they were rationally placed in bulk in 4-x bomb racks.
        The weight of this bomb is 1,5 kg
        Or enter in the search engine PTAB and ...
        1. samoletil18
          samoletil18 4 December 2013 19: 54
          0
          The Germans quickly found a solution against the PTABs. Parking under the trees, welding of bed nets over appliances, etc. The main thing is that the fuse should fire before it touches the armor. Since the fall of 1943, if I do not confuse, this has become widespread.
      2. mvg
        mvg 2 December 2013 13: 48
        0
        shortly before the beginning of the Kursk, they adopted 1.5 - 2.5 kg ATM, cumulative bombs ... they were "loaded" into the IL-2 by 40 pieces, the upper armor even for a tiger, even for someone with a maximum of 20-30 mm, over MTO and that less ... 4-6 attack aircraft simply destroyed a column of 5-10 tanks on the march. After several days of use, it was forbidden to move in the column during the day. Just like at 45 in the afternoon the Germans did not go AT ALL, since the superiority of the allies in the air was 24 to 1. There is such an article on the site. attack aircraft, destroyed many .. hundreds of armored vehicles. and the tiger is indeed a formidable tank. I believe that Wittmann could have knocked out 30 or more. I think that the Ferdinands' settlements have an even higher score.
    5. smile
      smile 30 November 2013 22: 16
      13
      DZ_98_B
      By the way, the reliability of their huge accounts of our tanks allegedly destroyed is very clearly visible on the example of the same Carius. This guy on a blue eye claims that he twice destroyed Tiger 1 alone at the ISP CCI (2 tanks in the state). :)) Moreover, stepping on them ... each time spending half an hour to an hour to destroy a tank regiment ... and once he destroyed two more tanks than the state should put into the regiment - 20 IS 22 :))) And he all they were conceived, awarded with crosses. leaves and other rubbish ... :)))

      The ambivalent feeling for his book is that the man is clearly fighting, writes interestingly ... but sometimes he lies so that his jacket wraps up ... :))) because it is difficult to understand where he writes the truth and where he lies like a mare, praising himself, invincible ... :))))
  8. Ingvar51
    Ingvar51 30 November 2013 10: 03
    25
    On July 5, near Maslova Pristan, at the junction with the 229th Guards Regiment, my father took the first battle, the joint of the 229th and 224th Guards regiments. He was 16 years old. The commander of the 224th Guards Regiment, Major Ulasovets. In 1980 we went to the place of the battle of my father, everything, of course, changed, from the trenches there were barely noticeable grooves, but my father remembered every bend.
    1. Ivan Tarasov
      Ivan Tarasov 30 November 2013 15: 06
      0
      Please tell me the number of the division, which included the 229th Guards Rifle Regiment?
      1. Ingvar51
        Ingvar51 30 November 2013 17: 08
        +1
        72 Guards Division, 7th Guards Army Shumilova
      2. Ingvar51
        Ingvar51 30 November 2013 17: 08
        +1
        72 Guards Division, 7th Guards Army Shumilova
        1. Ivan Tarasov
          Ivan Tarasov 30 November 2013 20: 56
          +3
          Shumilov’s army played an important role in halting the offensive of the Kempf operational group (parts of which escaped into the operational area near the village of Rzhavets) on 12.07. counterattacks on the flank (south of the village of Razumnoe).
          Chained on the flanks of the enemy, he could not free up the forces for a breakthrough to Prokhorovka, and after that he slammed 48 SK in the village of Shakhovo in a timely manner.
  9. Ingvar51
    Ingvar51 30 November 2013 10: 03
    +4
    On July 5, near Maslova Pristan, at the junction with the 229th Guards Regiment, my father took the first battle, the joint of the 229th and 224th Guards regiments. He was 16 years old. The commander of the 224th Guards Regiment, Major Ulasovets. In 1980 we went to the place of the battle of my father, everything, of course, changed, from the trenches there were barely noticeable grooves, but my father remembered every bend.
  10. family tree
    family tree 30 November 2013 10: 39
    28
    8 July 1943, a single Tiger by SS Untersharführer Franz Staudegger, was attacked with 50 tanks T34. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ...
    Not a single serious study (for example, the book by Gregory L. Mattson "The History of the 2nd SS Panzer Division" Das Reich ") devoted to the combat path of the 2nd Panzer Division" Das Reich "does not even mention Franz Staudegger in passing. also does not appear The story is invented, from beginning to end.
    1. I am
      I am 30 November 2013 23: 08
      0
      The fight is famous. In the Soviet book, I’m sorry I don’t remember the name, the memory of the girl (((((the battle under the Prokhorovka and the whole Kursk battle was described in detail and this episode, in particular. There against this monster go the usual T-34, not T-34-85 Therefore, alas, ah. And the amers have similar episodes, they have 33 Shermans at a time the German tiger chopped up.
      But this is not the main thing, but who won. Although there were serious miscalculations. And people feel sorry. BUT Soviet troops stood and won. And this is the MAIN THING !!!!
      1. family tree
        family tree 30 November 2013 23: 37
        13
        Quote: I am
        There, against this monster, embody the usual T-34, and not the T-34-85.

        The 85s were not there then. And this episode was analyzed in detail. This cupcake, he writes, did not go into battle due to a tank malfunction request , but when he found out that T-34s were approaching Teterevino, he, suddenly, took and repaired the tank, and to such an extent that he already chased after them when they retreated. Incidentally, a very keen-sighted partaigenosse, everyone, including the Germans, write about dry weather and clouds of dust, he managed to see! and shoot! In general, either he did not see, and fired into the dust, then where did he see 17 killed? Yes, and 34 would not have seen very much that they were being killed and would have come close and, accordingly, his Far Eastern relative would have come to the "Tiger". Or, he invented everything, thanks to magazines, like our Fedorov, after the war, when from old age sclerosis is braided for insanity.
        And about amers
        “We are used to an adversary such as the Russians; we were struck by the contrast. Throughout the war, I never saw the soldiers scatter so that only their heels sparkled, although, essentially, nothing much happened ... After all, five Russians were more dangerous than thirty Americans. ”
        Otto Karius "Tigers" in the mud "is also post-war mumaras
  11. datur
    datur 30 November 2013 10: 50
    20
    "Tigers" are burning

    July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock down 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- why not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!
    1. Reyngard
      Reyngard 30 November 2013 14: 48
      -14 qualifying.
      Well, you sit in the Tiger and feel the advantage!
      1. smile
        smile 30 November 2013 22: 22
        +7
        Reyngard
        In order to lie like that, you don’t have to get into the tank - you need to dig deep into your nose and slave a chemical pencil - and voila - you can write 30, you can 50, and 500 is not much more difficult to write ... do you not know about it - you have every information that you voiced here in approximately the same way extracted ... :))) and equally reliable ... :)))
  12. datur
    datur 30 November 2013 10: 50
    +3
    "Tigers" are burning

    July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock down 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- why not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!
    1. Reyngard
      Reyngard 30 November 2013 14: 46
      -8
      The tigers were stronger than the T-34, taken in quantity.
      1. Jager
        Jager 30 November 2013 19: 44
        22
        How tired of these stupid comparisons of "Tiger" and T-34! It's like comparing a Kamaz with a Gazelle. Cars of completely different classes.
        Want to compare "Tiger"? Compare it with IS. Want to compare the T-34? Compare with Pz-IV. There is nothing to compare "Panther" with at all - the Germans declared it as average, but the weight of the vehicle was more than that of our heavy IS with the best armament and reservation scheme.
        I believe in the "hunting stories" of Karius and other comrades as in the fables of grandmothers at the entrance.
        1. smile
          smile 30 November 2013 22: 25
          11
          Jager
          Do not insult our grandmothers by comparing them with caries and hartans - firstly, grandmothers are much more truthful, and secondly, they try, so to speak, for the love of art, disinterestedly, and these handsome men earned fame, pieces of iron on their chests and other benefits ... :)))
      2. I am
        I am 30 November 2013 23: 09
        +4
        The T-34 had almost no chance against them. The large distance of the aimed shot at the tiger did not allow the t-34 to come close. And only t-34-85 had real chances to endure tigers.
        1. family tree
          family tree 1 December 2013 00: 27
          11
          Quote: I am
          The T-34 had almost no chance against them. The large distance of the aimed shot at the tiger did not give the t-34

          That's the trick, he had. The technology is as follows: one 34 is drawn, distracting the Germans at the maximum range, two come in from the flanks and yo ... (the moderators will not let them through) And later, five of us went, but this is not their job. 80% of the tanks were cut down by anti-tank equipment, what we have, what they have. And 34-k's main task is, well, they will roll along the tails of the "backlashes", drive the infantry on the march in the rear, "rob the cows."
          ZY My grandfather was a mortarman in the Arctic, since he took me with him, in 72, to a meeting of veterans. There were strong old men, there I was in tanks and fell in love (they told me both how tigers and how they frolicked in the rear. My grandfather only remembered one phrase, "If I was told by radio that reconnaissance was fighting a few kilometers ahead, I do not care that German refugees are walking along the road, queuing over their heads and forward. "And because of this he became a mechanical engineer. And after the institute he met (in the direction) one of the last mechanic drivers of the T-34, the head of the RMM Saburov. This guy who found the end of the war , over 34, could gnaw his throat. He said that he left the regiment along with his last 34th, on which he was an instructor. I believe him, because for 3 years, he has never deceived me, a young specialist. ...
          1. family tree
            family tree 1 December 2013 00: 40
            +6
            The F-34 is a good cannon, but it was, after all, that Pegov on a T-70 of 45mm two "Panthers" flunked, they did not have time to beep.
        2. 31231
          31231 1 December 2013 18: 40
          +5
          Lapul, read the first battle of our T-34s with the Royal Tigers. What do you have to notice there, the old 34s scored. The main thing is not only performance characteristics, but the ability to fight. It is the Americans of Abrams that silver carp were blinded in the hope of deserted even landscapes, and another life and the enemy can meet 200 meters from around the corner.
          1. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 1 December 2013 18: 42
            0
            Since when did the T-34-85, which only a few months have entered the army en masse, became the "old thirty-four"?
            1. family tree
              family tree 3 December 2013 00: 49
              +2
              Oskin had 34-85, "The Day of Kotoboy" is described in some detail, in Pasholok http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/209182.html?thread=683806&mode=reply.
      3. vardex
        vardex 2 December 2013 13: 50
        +2
        Tiger heavy tank 57 tons
        T-34-76 medium tank 28 tons
        so what is there to compare. comparable Lada with KAMAZ .....
    2. Motors1991
      Motors1991 1 December 2013 15: 47
      +4
      In the seventies, my father worked at the mine in the same brigade with the former tanker, he was all charred. So this tanker took part in the Prokhorov battle, he told about a dozen of our wrecked German tanks. By the way, Zhukov wanted for that victory To give Rotmistrov to court for the fact that he was incapable of burning an entire army., Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate Tiger’s frontal armor from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German shot through IS from a distance of 1600 meters ,, Tigrophobia ,, didn’t appear from scratch. The situation changed with the Germans losing Manganese and Nikopol, the quality of armor deteriorated, the IS-2 began to beat the Tiger from a distance of 2000 meters, and thirty fours got chances, especially with 85 mm guns. Vatutin was still unlucky in the sense that the Germans who fought against his front were commanded by Manstein, the best German field marshal, who after Stalingrad saved the southern flank of the German army from even more deafening defeat.
      1. Bagatur
        Bagatur 1 December 2013 16: 18
        -13 qualifying.
        And Vatutin was not lucky in the sense that the Germans who fought against his front were commanded by Manstein, the best German field marshal, who after Stalingrad saved the southern flank of the German army from even more deafening defeat.

        Hmm ... and not only Vatutin Tagotsa from the German general could not ... But UTB so since 1914 .... After the Napoleonic wars something happened ... Russia did not win a single war convincingly ... Toglko one-Rusko -Turkish 1877-1878 and there was a lot of suffering ...
        1. Shuriken
          Shuriken 1 December 2013 18: 20
          +7
          Quote: bagatura
          ..Russia not a single war convincingly won.

          You would have thought, comrade Bulgarian, that you are writing. At all times, completely non-papuans came to us with a sword, that Napoleon, that the Reichswehr, I generally keep quiet about the Wehrmacht, the best armies in the world! How can you win "convincingly" here?
          1. Bagatur
            Bagatur 1 December 2013 22: 03
            -4
            After the Napoleonic Wars I say ... If this is not so, then say what happened on the eastern (Krim) war, Rusko-Japanese .. World War I ...
        2. Motors1991
          Motors1991 1 December 2013 18: 22
          +5
          It’s not necessary to generalize so: the Russian generals looked pretty decent in the First World War and if they had the same strong rear as the Red Army in the Second World War, the Russian army would have been to Berlin 30 years earlier, and the Russian Bosphorus and Dardanelles garrisons would have stood. Comrade Stalin understood this very well, so parts of the NKVD stood all war in all major cities. And as for Manstein, it seems to me that this was a truly brilliant general. It’s enough to say that France was defeated according to the plan proposed by him .Therefore, the French and English generals also could not compete with the German, and ours in the end could. You can read the Goebels diary, there is a moment in which Hitler recognized that the German generals are much lower than the Soviet ones in their level.
        3. Kolovrat77
          Kolovrat77 1 December 2013 18: 45
          11
          Quote: bagatura
          ..Olzhko alone-Rusko-Turkish 1877-1878 and there was more suffering ...


          Here I agree with you in vain, in vain, in vain the Bulgarian fields are watered with Russian blood. It was necessary that the Turks would give you moles for the mind (for one thing there would be a reason to whine about genocide in Washington and ask for money "for life") Not one do you hear, not one Russian soldier is not worth the NATO-Hitler-Kaiser bedding.

          Quote: bagatura
          .Russia no war convincingly won


          Yes, you think so, that I won’t persuade you, I don’t think it is necessary to throw beads in front of the pigs, I will say one thing Russia decides the fate of the world, and you sit on the porch of the geyropov and ask the Germans for money so as not to die.
        4. typhoon7
          typhoon7 1 December 2013 18: 59
          +8
          You know Bagatur on Shipka, it was hard for Russian soldiers in general, but in the end there was a victory over Turkey. Your ancestors were more grateful to you.
          1. Bagatur
            Bagatur 1 December 2013 22: 06
            0
            And not only I am also grateful!
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 40
        +6
        Quote: Motors1991
        Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate the frontal armor of the Tiger from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German pierced IS from a distance of 1600 meters,

        There were no IS-2s on Kursk! In 1944, in the fall they went only to the troops. What is this tiger-1?
        And there were not so many of these tigers: 1354 pcs. on all fronts of Germany. A good gun with an excellent sight on a well-armored but clumsy chassis.
        1. Amfitsion
          Amfitsion 1 December 2013 19: 06
          0
          You probably wanted to say from the end of the 43rd, not the 44th?
          The Tiger-1 has a beautifully agile "chassis, on the spot, with its hull, it turned, God forbid, every medium tank ...
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 4 December 2013 20: 44
            0
            The tiger weighed more than 56 tons, a gasoline engine of 700 hp, what agility is there, despite the theoretical perfection of the transmission. By the way, which is by no means a model of reliability.
        2. zennon
          zennon 1 December 2013 19: 27
          +1
          And there were not so many of these tigers: 1354 pcs. on all fronts of Germany.

          Never in the history of the 2nd World Wehrmacht had more than 400 PzKpfw VI "Tiger" at one time on all fronts! Both independently and together with PzKpfw VI Ausf. B "Tiger II". Machines were very expensive and not technologically advanced. All engine and transmission parts were numbered, that is, they fit ONLY to a particular machine. The total number of "Tigers" on July 5, 1943 was to be the number 146. But in reality there were a little less. The Panthers were only in Army Group South in the 10th Tank Brigade in the 51st and 52nd Tank Battalions (204 vehicles in total). So the total number of these vehicles near Kursk was ... 7,6% of the number of all tanks and self-propelled guns of the Wehrmacht. Of course they did not make the weather.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 1 December 2013 19: 35
            0
            Do you know that at one time on ALL fronts of the Eastern Front (i.e. in the USSR) the Luftwaffe had 358 fighters of all types? (Up to the end of the war)
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 1 December 2013 19: 48
              +2
              Hi Denis, I don’t remember the exact number, but in my opinion a little more than 700.
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 1 December 2013 19: 51
                +1
                Hi Sasha. I have seen this figure among many historians.
              2. svp67
                svp67 1 December 2013 20: 01
                +3
                Quote: Alex 241


                hi Sasha. There is such data.
                The presence of Luftwaffe fighters on the Eastern Front
                1943 year
                March - 548
                June - 549
                December - 525
                1944 year
                March - 513
                June - 504
                September - 495
                December - 490
                In general, there are a lot of interesting statistics here ..
                http://fictionbook.ru/author/parshev_andreyi_petrovich/para_bellum/read_online.h
                tml? page = 51
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 1 December 2013 20: 05
                  +1
                  Hi Seryozha, thanks, I’ll look now.
          2. novobranets
            novobranets 2 December 2013 21: 39
            0
            In addition, quite a few cars did not take part in the battle due to a malfunction. Tigers often broke, a lot of weight made itself felt.
          3. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 3 December 2013 18: 09
            0
            Not quite true about the figure of 400, although the course of reasoning is correct ...
            According to the panzerlage of June 15, 1944, there were 571 Tiger-1s on all fronts.
            http://russiainwar.forum24.ru/?1-6-0-00000049-000-0-0-1333466596
          4. Alekseev
            Alekseev 4 December 2013 20: 46
            0
            Quote: zennon
            So the total number of these vehicles near Kursk was ... 7,6% of the total number of all tanks and self-propelled guns of the Wehrmacht. Of course, they did not make the weather.

            Absolutely accurate definition! good
        3. Motors1991
          Motors1991 1 December 2013 19: 57
          +1
          I identified the problem, the IS-2 with its 122-mm cannon could penetrate the Tiger-1 from a distance of 600-700 meters, and the T-34 with its 76-mm cannon did not take the Tiger either in the forehead or on board from any distance, but all these tales, invented by political officers, that they sent a couple of tanks to seed, and the rest left the Germans from the flank, leave them to political officers. The main losses of the Tigers were from heavy artillery, mines, bombs, and for technical reasons. And our tanks were advised to go around them where the long-barreled gun doesn’t even reach the German rear, where no Tiger can catch up with them, and if it comes across a single instance, then there will always be a more powerful gun on it, which, if it doesn’t penetrate the armor, will simply tear off the tower. we, the same Germans, when at the beginning of the war faced KV.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 December 2013 20: 15
            +5
            Quote: Motors1991
            , and all these tales invented by political instructors,

            Political instructors by political instructors, but here is a specific document:
            "Note by the Military Council of the armored and mechanized forces of the Red Army on the results of the test of the German T-VI tank
            May 4, 1943 Top Secret ... To Comrade Stalin

            Dokladyvy: on the test results of the firing of the German T-VI heavy tank. In the period from April 24 to April 30 s / g. At the GBTU KA research tank test site, tests were carried out on shelling a German T-VI tank from artillery systems that are in service with the Red Army, and 88-mm cannon of the T-VI tank was fired at the combat corps of the T-34 and KV- tanks 1.

            T-VI tank shelling results

            Side, rear and turret armor of a tank 82 mm thick breaks through (when a projectile meets armor at a right angle):
            1. Caliber shells of 45 mm anti-tank gun sample of 1942 from a distance of 350 meters.
            2. Submunition shells of a 45 mm tank gun of a sample of 1937 from a distance of 200 meters.
            3. A continuous armor-piercing projectile of 57 mm anti-tank gun ZIS-2 from a distance of 1000 meters.
            4. An armor-piercing shell of an 85 mm anti-aircraft gun from a distance of 1500 meters.
            5. Armor-piercing (solid) shell of an English 57 mm tank gun from a distance of 600 meters.
            6. Armor-piercing (solid) shell of an English anti-tank 57 mm gun from a distance of 1000 meters.
            7. An armor-piercing (solid) shell of 75 mm of an American tank gun of 75 mm from a distance of 600 meters.
            8. Frontal armor T-VI with a thickness of 100 mm is pierced by an armor-piercing shell of 85 mm anti-aircraft gun from a distance of 1000 meters.

            Shelling 82 mm of the side armor of the T-VI tank from a 76 mm F-34 tank gun from a distance of 200 meters showed that the armor-piercing shells of this gun are weak and, when they meet the tank’s armor, they are destroyed without penetrating the armor. 76 mm submunitions also do not penetrate 100 mm of the frontal armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of 500 meters.
            The anti-tank rifles in service with the Red Army do not penetrate the armor of the T-VI tank. An experienced anti-tank gun of the Blum system pierces the [82] mm armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of 100 meters at an initial bullet speed of 1500 m / s.

          2. svp67
            svp67 1 December 2013 20: 16
            +3
            The 88 mm tank gun mounted on the T-VI tank pierces the armor of our tanks from a distance with an armor-piercing shell:
            1. The most durable part of the T-34 tank’s hull is a nasal beam (cast, 140 mm thick), as well as frontal and tower armor from 1500 meters.
            2. The most durable frontal part of the hull of the KV-1 tank with a thickness of 105 mm (75 mm main armor + 30 mm shield) with 1500 meters.
            To provide tank and mechanized formations with means of combating T-VI tanks, I forgive you:
            1. To oblige the Narkomtankoprom (i.e. Zaltsman) to install 34 mm caliber guns (ZIS-57) on T-4 tanks at the rate of 2-3 tanks with a 57 mm gun for every ten tanks. At the same time, oblige the People’s Commissariat of Ammunition and GAU KA to set up production of 57 mm high-explosive fragmentation.
            2. To instruct the People’s Commissariat of Ammunition and GAU KA urgently to work out: a) an armor-piercing (solid) shell for the 76 mm F-34 tank gun, capable of penetrating the 82-mm side armor of the T-VI tank from a distance of at least 600 meters .; b) a caliber projectile for an F-76 tank 34 mm gun, capable of penetrating the frontal 100 mm armor of a T-VI tank from a distance of 500 meters.

            3. To oblige the Narkomtankoprom (t. Zaltsman) to manufacture, before June 1, 1943, on the basis of the chassis of the T-70 tank, three samples of self-propelled guns SU-57, armed with a 57 mm cannon. Test the specified GBTU KA samples within a ten-day period and report the results to the GOKO no later than June 10, 1943.
            4. To make a self-propelled gun armed with a 1 mm cannon of the 152 model by June 122, based on the SU-1931, and to produce such self-propelled guns on a par with the SU-152.
            5. Indicate Comrade It’s urgent for Grabin to quickly produce a powerful tank gun of 100 mm caliber for the IS tank, which is capable of penetrating 120-130 mm armor from a distance of 2000 meters.
            6. To oblige the People’s Commissariat of Armaments, together with the GAU KA, to finish testing the prototype of the Blum anti-tank gun as soon as possible in order to decide on the introduction of the Blum gun into the Red Army. "
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 1 December 2013 20: 40
              +4
              KURSK ARC. Great War.
            2. Motors1991
              Motors1991 1 December 2013 21: 25
              +2
              And what did I write wrong? That the 76-ml tank gun did not take the Tiger either in the forehead or onboard. Once again I repeat the problem with the Tigers began to be solved after the liberation of Manganese and Nikopol by our troops, the Reich lost alloying additives in armor steel. Why Hitler and ordered to hold on to Kryvbas to the last possible opportunity, and when he in response offered to leave Manganese in order to reduce the front line, Hitler looked at Manstein and said sadly: ,, Unfortunately my generals do not understand anything in the economy ,,
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 1 December 2013 21: 43
                +3
                Meinstein, in my opinion, was the smartest military leader (by the way, do you want to accuse me of sympathizing with the Nazis? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi). An outstanding commander! You will argue, emotions aside
                1. Apollo
                  Apollo 1 December 2013 21: 48
                  +2
                  Quote: Den 11
                  Meinstein, in my opinion, was the smartest military leader (by the way, do you want to accuse me of sympathy for the Nazis? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi).


                  There is no need here to praise and even more so propagandize Nazi criminals on the military-patriotic website. negative Minus.
                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 1 December 2013 21: 56
                    +2
                    Minus-so-minus. This is personally mine. I do not do propaganda!
                    1. Apollo
                      Apollo 1 December 2013 21: 59
                      +2
                      Quote: Den 11
                      Minus-so-minus. This is personally mine. I do not do propaganda!


                      Only no offense, you wrote in categorical form и clearly with sympathy to the general of the Nazi army. This caused my irritation. You can write too differently and in neutral form, isn’t that so ?!
                      1. Day 11
                        Day 11 1 December 2013 22: 06
                        +1
                        I agree. I went too far ...
                    2. Lesnik
                      Lesnik 2 December 2013 01: 52
                      +1
                      You know, you can talk a lot about what they were __ endo__y. But damn G. Guderian's mind and good luck cannot be taken away from this.
                2. bask
                  bask 1 December 2013 21: 59
                  +4
                  Quote: Den 11
                  there? --- He was NEVER a convinced Nazi)

                  THEwhen they were smashed, or when they were captured as Friedrich Wilhelm von Paulus, they suddenly all ceased to be the nation of honor ...
                  By the way, DEN, Paulus, was no less talented than Manstein.
                  But still was defeatedsimple Russim MAN Chuikov.V.I.
                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 1 December 2013 22: 09
                    +1
                    Yes, I agree, Paulus is a kind of military leader. For me so --- Is there a time sheet? Everything, the descendants will not curse
                3. smile
                  smile 1 December 2013 22: 05
                  +1
                  Day 11
                  Dan, great! The fact that Manstein is a talented military leader, no one disputes ...... I must admit, I do not care if he was a convinced Nazi ... well, he did it himself, he brought the day when we were all destroyed - as he could, and put as much effort as much as he could .... and, by the way, sometimes he puts it in his memoirs so ... that he’s even ashamed for him .... he’s lying more than ours ... much more .... therefore, he’s a talented person, but very controversial ... even kill me ... :)))) Yes, and our prisoners in 41 in the army, destroyed more of his subordinates than were sent for slow destruction in Vaterland ... do you think we should relate to this comrade?
                  You see, you can admire the fighting qualities of a serial killer who with his bare hands in an honest (he attacked. Man resisted) very professionally kills people ... and then rapes them and eats ... will you be so unique? The better is Manstein, the superprofession, whom ours beat more than once at the end of the war, whose troops destroyed the prisoners and the civilians are cleaner than the SS men? .... yes, you can pay tribute to his professionalism ... but then you must pay tribute to cannibalism ... such business ....
                  1. Lesnik
                    Lesnik 2 December 2013 01: 59
                    0
                    I wonder who except us remembers them? Especially in Germany? Maybe Big Mac will be remembered, by no means Bismarck or Manstein or von Runstedt laughing
          3. typhoon7
            typhoon7 3 December 2013 18: 58
            +1
            During the African War, the American ,, Sherman ,, collided with the royal tiger. The American managed to shoot first in the forehead, fell under the gun. Surprisingly, the Germans left the car. This only surviving royal tiger is still kept in America. From a tank strike, either the gun jammed, or the tower. Now imagine in place of this whipping boy ,, Sherman ,, IS-2. Yes, he would have moved his tower with his 120 mm shell, everything inside him would have turned into a mess. I have long read in print sources that the German tankers were not recommended to engage in open battle with the IS-2. It is terrible how our descendants will think about the war and the military equipment of that war, if now they write on the forum that without the West we would lose the war. I would like to note that up to 85 percent of the most selected German divisions were grind by the Soviet Union, and only a little more than 15, all the rest combined. I think these figures put everything in its place and just do not say that they took in quantity, the country was bloodless.
            1. Amfitsion
              Amfitsion 3 December 2013 19: 13
              0
              The Royal Tigers in Africa ... Excuse me, are you completely I.D.O.T.? ?
        4. family tree
          family tree 3 December 2013 02: 31
          +2
          Tiger-1,, at that time was on the verge of impenetrability, IS-2 could penetrate the frontal armor of the Tiger from a distance of 600-700 meters, a German pierced IS from a distance of 1600 meters,
          Ept, it seems the other way around, were cursing with Kars, IS-2s started firing from 2 km away and were taken out when hit. Incidentally, especially for Kars. I clearly observed the contours of the output traffic lights at the station from the stage, not with the naked eye, at a distance of 3,5 km (tracked by pickets), upon reaching the station, I looked at the weather forecast, cloud cover, drizzle, visibility 4km. smile
    3. poquello
      poquello 1 December 2013 17: 52
      +5
      Quote: datur
      "Tigers" are burning

      July 8, 1943 a single "Tiger" Unterscharfuhrer SS Franz Staudegger was attacked by 50 T34 tanks. Within two hours, he managed to knock out 17 of them, and when the Soviet tanks retreated, pursued them and knocked out five more ... ----- Th not 500 tanks? the enemy, yes, was a strong and valuable victory, but the article is complete !!! a set of Western and liberal bullshit !!!!

      ammunition 92 shots

      http://pro-tank.ru/bronetehnika-germany/tyagelie-tanki/147-t-6h-tigr?start=1

      but still the machine gunner hans the gun
    4. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 1 December 2013 18: 23
      -1
      Yeah, yes, yes, "nonsense, liberents, the State Department" swamp ".... Nothing in this" patriotic "rotten stuff changes ....
      Any "patriotic fool" can be verified by deeds. Let's try?
      If we compare the date, place and time of the event, it seems that they were tanks of the 26th Tank Brigade of the 2nd Tank Corps. The question is: who will have enough zeal in DEFINITION to prove patriotism, and to cite the evidence (ZhBD, dispatches, reports, reports) of this brigade about that day of the battle? Well, as a consequence, it goes without saying that the REAL losses of our tankers should be made public, and the "liberals, detractors and Goebbels's liars" should be put to shame? I will give you a hint - the losses are less than stated by Staudeger
      WELL??
      1. FREGATENKAPITAN
        FREGATENKAPITAN 2 December 2013 19: 34
        +1
        Patriotism is not proved by the number of pieces of paper provided ..... Do you dispute the fact of the USSR’s victory at Kursk or a whole in the war7 What other proof do you need? Or just a desire to touch? No one disputes the fact of the huge losses of the Soviet troops in the battle, no one denies the fact that the vast majority of our tanks were not even T-34s, but T-70s, light tanks, and naturally they could not stack T-6 Tigers in packs. The main task was completed! The Germans stopped, ....... then they were forced to retreat. and already before the end of the war ....., Watch the movie "The Great War" everything is laid out on the shelves, all the milestones of the war ........
      2. The comment was deleted.
  13. family tree
    family tree 30 November 2013 11: 38
    +5
    By this time, the German tank ace Untersturmfuhrer SS division Leibstandart, Michael Wittmann, who had resettled by this time, destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 anti-tank guns during the Battle of Kursk, which made up 20% of the 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns that he had destroyed during the war. Exactly battalion Wittmann repelled the attack of the 181st Soviet tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...

    Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination. a tank company consisting of heavy Tiger tanks includes 14 vehicles - three platoons of 4 tanks each plus 2 in a command platoon.
    181st Tank Brigade - 24 medium T-34 tanks and 20 light T-70s.
    Directly under Prokhorovka, in this battle, SS Vich Brigadeführer had 60 tanks and a tank company of heavy tanks, totaling 74, of which 14 were heavy.
    In addition to the 181st, we also have the 32nd - 64 T-34 medium tanks.
    1. Bagatur
      Bagatur 30 November 2013 19: 41
      0
      It seems every German traveled to Tischr ... It’s only 3 battalions of the heaviest tank-100 pike, 10 brigat-200 Panthers (they didn’t influence the course of the battle, the engines themselves sunbathed for imperfection), all the rest is T III III IV
      1. family tree
        family tree 1 December 2013 02: 02
        13
        Quote: bagatura
        Every German seems to be traveling to Tischr ... Really, only 3 battalions of heavy tank-100 pikes

        Do not drive, a hero. Aht-komma-aht with Zeiss optics under good armor, really not a joke, from afar, most of all, only we, the Russians, have fun, wall to wall, direct contact, and there neither caliber nor optics pianoforte, until you aim snipers, you rake ten times the shafts, nine of them posthumously. There it was like that.
        It’s not enough to kill a Russian soldier, he also needs to be knocked down
        Otto, damn it, background, his mother, Bismarck, however drinks
        1. Bagatur
          Bagatur 1 December 2013 16: 12
          +2
          "Rather killed than killed!" Frederick the Great

          Russian skoldat-eternal glory! He didn’t want to say that he was not worthy of victory ... He won, despite the miscalculations of Stavka, Vatutin, Stalin himself and bad technology ..
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 1 December 2013 16: 17
            +4
            Hello Orthodox! How do you live there in the EU? Tell our Ukrainian friends
    2. zennon
      zennon 1 December 2013 19: 37
      0
      Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination.

      Wittman Tigers:
      July 5, 1943 - Kursk, Tiger No. 13 (31), commander of the 3rd platoon, 13th company, 1st regiment 1 LSSAH.
      November 1943 - Tiger No. S21. Used by Wittmann during the Soviet fall offensive of 1943 (exact date unknown).
      June 6, 1944 - Normandy, Tiger No. 205. Commander of the 2nd company sSSPz.Abt. 101.
      June 13, 1944 - Villers-Bocage (Normandy), Tiger No. 222. Whitman moved to him at the last minute due to engine failure on his Tiger No. 205.
      August 8, 1944 - Normandy, Tiger No. 007. The Last Whitman Tiger. He died in him.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 1 December 2013 19: 48
        +1
        Have you heard about this Hans? Perhaps it will be more serious than Vitman. Kurt Knispel. Read about him. In the newsreel he "lit up"
        1. zennon
          zennon 1 December 2013 21: 52
          +2
          Quote: Den 11
          Have you heard about this Hans? Perhaps it will be more serious than Vitman. Kurt Knispel. Read about him. In the newsreel he "lit up"

          Yes, I heard. The most interesting thing is that he is a gunman-sergeant. I think that a fair part of the attributed victories is a linden. For example, Wittman counted 14 tanks near Kharkov, but forgot to clarify that these vehicles were dismantled, they were stationed on TO. In addition, we don’t know and our tank crews. For example, Lieutenant Dmitry Lavrinenko (fought on the T-34 tank, served in the 4th tank brigade) - destroyed 52 tanks and assault guns.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 1 December 2013 22: 03
            0
            Don’t leave the branch. It’s nice to talk to the person in the topic. Just how much did he manage to fight? Surely he would have grown to an excellent divisional!
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 1 December 2013 22: 19
              +3
              Quote: Den 11
              Only how much did he manage to fight? Surely, he would have grown to an excellent divisional commander!
              From October 14 to December 18, 41 years.
              1. zennon
                zennon 1 December 2013 23: 30
                +3
                From October 14 to December 18, 41 years.

                Yes, he died near Volokolamsk. He fought with Katukov. Here he grew up! From the colonel to the marshal of armored forces. I knew his wife. Even once, quite by accident, was in her house on Leningradsky Prospekt. Well, for example, Art. Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov (KV tank, 1st Panzer Division) - 22 tanks. The famous Voyskovitsky battle. His company of 5 tanks destroyed 43 Wehrmacht tanks. Unfortunately, on September 15, the 41st was seriously wounded. In fact, it didn’t fight until the end of the war.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 1 December 2013 23: 37
                  +2
                  ................................................
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 1 December 2013 23: 50
                    +2
                    It happened so. In July 1942, due to a fuel system malfunction, Lieutenant Konovalov’s car lagged behind his brigade. The maximum that the comrades could help the tank crews was to single out the most experienced repairman of the brigade of equipment-lieutenant Serebryakov. The crew on their own restored a well-disguised tank when two German armored personnel carriers appeared on the road, on which the crew immediately opened fire, knocking out one and taking the other to flight. Following the armored vehicles a marching tank column of 75 tanks appeared. Having let the enemy down to a distance of 500 meters, the HF crew hit four tanks with direct fire, forcing the convoy to turn around and retreat for regrouping. The Germans probably assumed that they were opposed by great forces, and not the only immobilized Soviet tank. After some time, the Nazis again went on the attack with a deployed formation, but this cost them six more vehicles. It should be noted that the German medium tank T-III was inferior in most respects to the Soviet heavy tank KV-1. The pride armor of Soviet tank building was weakly vulnerable to German tank guns at long and medium distances, while the KV-1 gun easily penetrated even the T-III frontal armor. Nevertheless, the Germans made a third assault attempt, the reflection of which the heroes used up the entire ammunition, destroying six more enemy tanks and one armored personnel carrier. The Germans, however, did not calm down and called for reinforcements - a 105-mm assault gun, which they managed to pull to a Soviet tank at a distance of 75 meters.
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 1 December 2013 23: 51
                      +2
                      When the last shell was driven into the barrel of a tank gun, Konovalov warned the crew that after the shot everyone left the car. By this time, the KV-1 was completely disabled: numerous hits did their job. During the evacuation, three crew members died. Only Lieutenant Konovalov, technician-lieutenant Serebryakov and gunner Dementyev could get out. Having taken a tank machine gun with them, the tankers decided to make their way to their own. After a week of wandering through the fields, the heroes were lucky to get to the village in which the German tank platoon was stationed. Experienced tankers, having eliminated the sentry, climbed into a German combat vehicle left without proper supervision, quickly figured out the control and drove off to the front in front of astonished Germans. The crew of Lieutenant Konovalov in a captured German tank safely arrived at the location of the Soviet troops, where he was "captured". However, the incident was soon exhausted, and "Soviet German" continued to fight under the command of Konovalov for about a month, destroying three of his former brothers during this time.
                      1. Amfitsion
                        Amfitsion 2 December 2013 00: 04
                        0
                        Lol
                        Can you name a specific model of the 105-mm assault gun? For as far as I know, thereof, Schturumhaubitze 42 made its first debut on the Eastern Front in July 43rd. Maybe I missed something?
                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 2 December 2013 00: 21
                        +1
                        According to some reports, 6 out of 12 ordered were ready in 42 years.
                    2. Day 11
                      Day 11 2 December 2013 00: 08
                      0
                      This is war Sasha! A rare photo
                    3. svp67
                      svp67 2 December 2013 00: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Den 11
                      ! Rare photo

                      And why is it so unusual? A lot of photos of Germans using captured equipment, including ours. And then the Germans on our SU-85 ...


                    4. Day 11
                      Day 11 2 December 2013 00: 23
                      0
                      And it’s rare in that only 3 cars were captured in the battle of Kursk. This is one of them.
                    5. Kars
                      Kars 2 December 2013 10: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Den 11
                      in the battle of Kursk only 3 vehicles were captured. This is one of them

                      They were not near Kursk. The baptism of fire Su-85 received at the Dnieper border.
                2. svp67
                  svp67 2 December 2013 00: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: Den 11
                  Rare photo

                  Here is more interesting
                  T4, with the stars, but it’s like the Germans are sitting on the armor ...
                3. Day 11
                  Day 11 2 December 2013 00: 30
                  0
                  Somewhere I had "Panthers" T-5 with stars (Soviet). True, they did not want to ride on our gasoline.
                4. Day 11
                  Day 11 2 December 2013 00: 36
                  +1
                  In, found. Krasavy-is not it?
                5. svp67
                  svp67 2 December 2013 00: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Den 11
                  .Beautiful, right?
                  I would prefer that these "beauties" would never show off with us ...
                6. Lesnik
                  Lesnik 2 December 2013 01: 13
                  0
                  Good ..... stars good
            2. Alex 241
              Alex 241 2 December 2013 00: 39
              +1
              Seryozha, can any of the allies?
          2. svp67
            svp67 2 December 2013 00: 28
            0
            or this KV2, which the Americans captured ...
          3. Alex 241
            Alex 241 2 December 2013 00: 43
            +1
            The Bulgarians, using their T-IV standard equipment on the way to the Austrian Alps during the Bulgarian offensive on the city of Nis (territory of the CXC occupied by the Wehrmacht and the SS).
          4. svp67
            svp67 2 December 2013 00: 52
            +1
            Quote: Alex 241
            Bulgarians using their full-time equipment

            To go nuts, how many Bulgarians still have this antiques ...

          5. Alex 241
            Alex 241 2 December 2013 00: 55
            0
            Wow Seryozha, collectors strangle themselves for it!
          6. svp67
            svp67 2 December 2013 01: 01
            0
            Quote: Alex 241
            Wow Seryozha, collectors strangle themselves for it!

            So I'm surprised. We are chasing all the "crowbar", but here there is so much good ...
        2. Day 11
          Day 11 2 December 2013 00: 59
          0
          Yes, this crap is still in bulk (MP-40 without a barrel). These are our Hezbollah allies in Syria
  14. svp67
    svp67 2 December 2013 00: 57
    +2
    Quote: Den 11
    Rare photo

    Ours after the Victory, in one of the units conduct combat drill, but there are no steel helmets for everyone, so they use what came to hand ...
  15. Day 11
    Day 11 2 December 2013 01: 05
    0
    Class! Super! I like such unusual pictures
  16. svp67
    svp67 2 December 2013 00: 10
    0
    Quote: Alex 241

    Alexander, I have no doubt at all about the courage of our people, but the story is very reminiscent of agitation ... I do not think that they had time to count German tanks in a convoy, and it was hardly possible
    a marching tank column of 75 tanks appeared.

    the Germans have such a number of tanks - a huge force, this is actually a battle group of at least the German tank division ...
    The Germans, however, did not calm down and called for reinforcements - a 105-mm assault gun, which they managed to pull to a Soviet tank at a distance of 75 meters.

    You can find out the place of the battle. Usually it is not their style to burst so much. Having met resistance, their mechanized troops were looking for a safer way for movement, leaving the honor of destroying the "obstacle" to the infantry ... The main thing for them was to maintain the pace, the pace and again the pace ...
    So, I think that there was of course a clash, but against how many German tanks and with what result - there are a lot of questions ... and to hit a tank with a shell, it doesn’t mean to destroy it, the Germans had a chance, if not all, then part of the affected to recover ...
    And so, even the fact of the capture of a German tank, of course, commands respect, if at least a quarter of our crews, who lost their tanks in 1942, replaced them with German ones, this is how the Panzerwaffe would have ended in August 1942
  • Day 11
    Day 11 1 December 2013 23: 56
    +1
    Believe me, Sanya is a Tiger
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 2 December 2013 00: 00
      0
      It is too...............
  • Stas57
    Stas57 2 December 2013 11: 58
    0
    Just in case, I’ll ask, but how can one take merit from a participant in a combined arms battle?
    This is not HERE, the damage does not count.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 December 2013 19: 46
    0
    Quote: perepilka
    Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination

    Yes and so and so ...
    Directly in Operation Citadel, two heavy tank battalions (503rd and 505th) and four companies of motorized divisions took part.

    http://bronesite.narod.ru/German/Pz_VI_combat.htm
  • family tree
    family tree 30 November 2013 11: 38
    +1
    By this time, the German tank ace Untersturmfuhrer SS division Leibstandart, Michael Wittmann, who had resettled by this time, destroyed 30 Soviet tanks and 28 anti-tank guns during the Battle of Kursk, which made up 20% of the 138 tanks and 132 enemy guns that he had destroyed during the war. Exactly battalion Wittmann repelled the attack of the 181st Soviet tank brigade near Prokhorovka ...

    Not a battalion, but a company. Near Kursk "Tigers" were in separate companies, divisional subordination. a tank company consisting of heavy Tiger tanks includes 14 vehicles - three platoons of 4 tanks each plus 2 in a command platoon.
    181st Tank Brigade - 24 medium T-34 tanks and 20 light T-70s.
    Directly under Prokhorovka, in this battle, SS Vich Brigadeführer had 60 tanks and a tank company of heavy tanks, totaling 74, of which 14 were heavy.
    In addition to the 181st, we also have the 32nd - 64 T-34 medium tanks.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 30 November 2013 12: 06
      13
      Nice to read the comment of a competent person. hi
      In the Red Army, there was some exaggeration in the names of units and formations. So a heavy tank (self-propelled) regiment is only 21 vehicles, a TBR is a real regiment, TK, MK is approximately a German division. The army, respectively, the German army corps, the front-field (or German tank) army.
      The losses of our troops were high, more, but not small, German.
      This was mainly explained not by the quality of the German guns, but by the best ability to fight, even in the summer of 43 years.
      The same, the aforementioned brigadenfuhrer, reflected the attack of 181 and 32 Tbr fire from a place, as it should be in the science of the reflection of the counterattack. And the mentioned brigades burned down attacking the insufficiently explored enemy in the forehead, in an not quite suitable area without proper support from the aircraft.
      Yes, and our aviation was unable to thwart the attacks of German bombers, largely thanks to which, "destroyed one after another anti-tank strongholds", as the author writes.
      But some of the qualitative superiority of the German troops, especially manifested on the southern front of the Kursk Bulge, could not surpass the courage of our soldiers and the right strategic choice of command.
      As well as the efforts of the rear, thanks to which it was possible to create powerful reserves.
      All this predetermined the further result: the defeat of the German army in the Battle of Kursk, the loss of always strategic initiative, the liberation of Kharkov and the left-bank Ukraine, no matter how skillfully and stubbornly Manstein fought, Kluge with Model, son of Ribbentrop and brigandenfuhrer from 2 CC CC.
      1. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 30 November 2013 14: 03
        +2
        Quote: Alekseev
        from the same, the aforementioned brigadenführer, reflected the attack of 181 and 32 Tbr fire from a place, as it should be in the science of the reflection of the counterattack. And the mentioned brigades burned down attacking the insufficiently explored enemy in the forehead, in an not quite suitable area without proper support from the aircraft.

        I agree. You have forgotten to write about the "heroic blow of Rotmistrov". This "great strategist" decided to take the Germans by surprise, well, well ... The Hans not only managed to turn around, they also went on the defensive.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 30 November 2013 17: 57
          +5
          Quote: Eugeniy_369
          Have you forgotten about the "heroic blow of Rotmistrov" to write

          The attack of 181 and 32 Tbr is the blow of Rotmistrov, or rather, part of it.
          But ... We must clearly be aware that it is much easier for us to reason here than to take the absolutely right decision (and arrange for its implementation) to the commander of the 5th Guards AT on July 12, 1943.
          I don’t know, maybe someone would have done better than him then ...
          I do not know. Here is a more competent "SS Brigadeführer Helmut Becker, the commander of the SS division" Death's Head ", recalled:" I noticed clouds of dust on the horizon. And soon Russian tanks began to appear from these clouds. These Russians moved their reserves,? "I said to my chief headquarters and realized that we lost the battle for Kursk. "
          Immediately, the seasoned Brigadefuehrer realized this, although he knew that his tankers would certainly inflict heavy losses on the attacking tanks of our army. But he also knew for sure that his soldiers from such a battle will not come out.
          An example of the dominance of a strategy over tactical failures. You can’t jump above your head. And Rotmistrov ensured the organized entry of his army into the battle, the rear and technical support of his troops, and although he suffered heavy losses, there was no talk of defeating him. Already in early August, the 5th Guards TA participated in the capture of Kharkov and the reflection of the fierce attempts of the Germans to recapture him.
          1. Eugeniy_369
            Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 00: 55
            +1
            Quote: Alekseev
            And Rotmistrov ensured the organized entry of his army into the battle, the rear and technical support of his troops, and although he suffered heavy losses, there was no talk of defeating him. Already in early August, the 5th Guards TA participated in the capture of Kharkov and the reflection of the fierce attempts of the Germans to recapture him.

            I do not agree. After Prokhorovka, Rotmistrov was saved only by the fact that Stalin did not want to disassemble the huge losses (in defense) so as not to stain the repelled offensive. Rotmistrov didn’t provide the entry of the mass of tanks (Churchill only arrived at the end of the battle, therefore they had almost no losses), and where did you provide it? You looked at the map on this map? Is it okay for 50% of the equipment? so also the battlefield behind the Fritz remains, but they blew all our tanks that they could not use. The fact that in Kharkov the number of tanks and l / s brought to the state thanks to the rear, I need to say (and my grandmother in particular).
            PS This counterattack was predicted by Nemchur right up to Prokhorovka, look at the map. It is not necessary to have seven spans to understand, on this site and it is necessary to beat the erupted enemy (on the flank), it’s a pity they performed poorly.
            1. Alekseev
              Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 18
              +4
              Quote: Eugeniy_369
              After Prokhorovka, Rotmistrov was saved only by the fact that Stalin did not want to disassemble the huge losses (in defense) so as not to stain the repelled offensive.

              I do not think that such a reason would have saved Rotmistrov from Stalin's anger. He was not only not shot, but left to command the army. I agree with you that he was not "Napoleon" in the battle of Prokhorovka, but I am sure that the main reason for the unsuccessful actions of our troops was the skillful and stubborn resistance of the Germans.
              The best, by the way, of the Reich armored formations. And the actions of German aviation, too.
              If the enemy were weaker, perhaps 5GV.TA simply crushed, crushed him.
              And to Kharkov, the number is neither 5gv. Nor 1gv. TA (which, as many believe it was better to fight) to the state failed to bring. request The troops cannot be restored so quickly, they are not tin soldiers. Although your grandmother, and my aunt, and many others, many really worked hard in the Urals not for fear, but for conscience. The TA was combat-ready in the first 1, in the 108th 5 tanks, if I am not mistaken. But these were combat-ready formations, which they proved in battle, because by no means only the number of tanks determines the combat readiness of the troops.
              The same exact picture was in the German tank divisions.
              1. Eugeniy_369
                Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 20: 24
                0
                Quote: Alekseev
                that the main reason for the unsuccessful actions of our troops was the skillful and stubborn resistance of the Germans

                Not exactly, the Germans were advancing, and of course it is not entirely correct to consider Prokhorovka separately from the entire operation on the southern front, I got carried away what .
                Quote: Alekseev
                failed to bring to the state.

                I did not claim this, part of the losses in equipment and personnel were made up for. And if I’m not mistaken (correct) 5gv.TA, some units have been subordinated.
                PS It's nice to discuss with a competent and polite person hi .
      2. Bagatur
        Bagatur 30 November 2013 19: 44
        +2
        Why did you need this counter-strike of 5 TA and 5 combined arms? If the enemy captured the area from which the attack was started and the offensive was launched ... Better did Katukov to the north-beat from the ambush, did not put his tanks under German guns ...
        1. family tree
          family tree 30 November 2013 23: 10
          +5
          Quote: bagatura
          Why did you need this counter-strike of 5 TA and 5 combined arms?

          Did Rotmistrov have a choice? The Germans, in fact, broke through the defense, but forgot to report to ours that they were exhausted and were going on the defensive themselves. That is why they rushed into the oncoming lane who was the first to arrive, that is, the 181st, and in the 181st, the T-70s were the first! A teardrop, of course, is a great power, only now no one had it and will not have it. By the way, there was a lot of anti-tank equipment there, from the Germans, of course. By the way, Rotmistrov still had "Churchillies", so they all remained intact, more did not have time, because of their "unsurpassed" speed.
          1. Eugeniy_369
            Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 03: 36
            -1
            Quote: perepilka
            Did Rotmistrov have a choice?

            There is always a choice. One commander of the mechanized corps on the southern front, when the Germans ordered him from the front, refused to knock him out of his head, almost shot ...
          2. Alekseev
            Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 21
            +1
            Quote: perepilka
            Did Rotmistrov have a choice?

            Nice to read the comment of a competent person! hi
          3. Bagatur
            Bagatur 1 December 2013 16: 40
            +2
            Dermatologically for 70 years then they’ll advise me lekce ... But why should I hurry? The Germans were advancing, they lacked the time and resources, they were looking for quick success ... It was wiser to wait for them and destroy them for a short distance, so did Katuki .. But what makes it clear that the Soviet tankers did not know about the Soviet counter-ditch ditch and cast as blind? Who owes them about this will tell where intelligence ...

            PP Munya has no bad feelings for Rotmistrov — his children, like Katukov’s children near Plevna, fought in 1877!
        2. svp67
          svp67 1 December 2013 17: 00
          +2
          Quote: bagatura
          Why was a 5-TA and 5 combined-arms counterblow needed? Better did Katukov north-beat him from an ambush, didn’t put his tanks under German guns ...

          And this was Vatutin's "proprietary" technique - to beat the attacking enemy in the forehead, before that he used 5 TCs with the same result ...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 1 December 2013 17: 13
            +2
            And there was such a ... by the name of Meretskov! It’s incomprehensible to me how he reached such heights! Only one of the subordinates of the armies commanding him I admire is the commander of the 42nd --- General Maslennikov! A man of steel! I’m him I admire! These creatures ruined ... Whoever deals with the history of the Second World War, will understand. And General Gorbatov?
  • 123321
    123321 30 November 2013 12: 12
    +3
    About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
  • 123321
    123321 30 November 2013 12: 12
    0
    About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
    1. svp67
      svp67 30 November 2013 12: 18
      +5
      Quote: 123321
      About the citadel, we can say that this is a triumph of Soviet intelligence. First, our general staff familiarized themselves with the plans for the operation of the citadel, before they lay down on the table to Hitler.
      Alas, a very beautiful legend and no more, the entire course of the battle of Kursk shows that our command knew about the Germans' plans - only in general terms. Otherwise, there would have been neither Prokhorovka, nor other less well-known, but nevertheless very bloody battles for us in that battle ...
      1. corn
        corn 30 November 2013 20: 12
        +3
        In military academies, the Battle of Kursk is seen as a classic example of a defensive operation. In form it is correct.
        In fact (this is my opinion), the transition to defense with numerical superiority indicates a lack of ability to conduct offensive actions and psychological unpreparedness to attack.
      2. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 03: 39
        -1
        Quote: svp67
        what our command knew about the plans of the Germans - only in general terms

        That's right. The blow was known and where it is not clear ...
        Even before the advance, the Germans were able to let the fog.
  • Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 30 November 2013 12: 50
    +6
    Eternal glory and memory to Soviet soldiers and officers who defeated a strong and skillful enemy in the Battle of Kursk in July 1943
  • Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 30 November 2013 12: 50
    0
    Eternal glory and memory to Soviet soldiers and officers who defeated a strong and skillful enemy in the Battle of Kursk in July 1943
  • Reyngard
    Reyngard 30 November 2013 13: 15
    -22 qualifying.
    Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?
    1. 31231
      31231 30 November 2013 19: 49
      +3
      Ill, you did not confuse sites ?!
      1. catapractic
        catapractic 2 December 2013 21: 35
        0
        judging by the epaulette, it has long been confused and lost laughing
    2. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 20: 42
      +1
      What are you talking about?
      About ordinary infantry Van, who defended his homeland, or platoon Petrov, company Sidorov. Surround, they didn’t deserve Eternal Glory. (By the simplicity of my simplicity I cannot call strangers on you and insult people not in the rules).
    3. smile
      smile 30 November 2013 22: 33
      +7
      Reyngard
      Yes, yes, it’s corpses. And we threw corpses very accurately - and it turned out following the results of the War that about one killed German or German satellite fell on one corpse thrown by us ... do not be offended, for my addition? This is what you had in mind - the fact that the military losses, if we exclude the prisoners deliberately tortured by the Germans and the civilians destroyed by them, came out practically equal with us, right? :)))
    4. family tree
      family tree 1 December 2013 01: 35
      +4
      Quote: Reyngard
      Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

      What are the corpses? They worked, purely, with high-precision arrows of the oscilloscope. Something like this, Julia Leonidovna request
    5. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 29
      0
      Quote: Reyngard
      .And the fact that the Germans were thrown with corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

      If you are weak, then you should get into the conversation of knowledgeable people! yes
      How can this be thrown into corpses and defeated later? what Newspapers read correctly ... When there are much more corpses (prisoners) than the enemy - it’s n ... c, and there was no question of taking any cities, liberating Left-Bank Ukraine in the summer and autumn of 1943.
  • pensioner
    pensioner 30 November 2013 14: 19
    +5
    In 2007 I dug in those parts of the gas pipeline. Locals say that where we were digging fights were not very severe. But by the amount of iron in the earth that they find, one can imagine WHAT was happening where the battles were fierce ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • your1970
    your1970 30 November 2013 14: 20
    +4
    They actually kill in a war, it's not in the Code to play with saves ...
    It’s not for us, with our knowledge of what has already passed, to judge those who did not know what would happen in an hour (bombers arrive, break roads, don’t deliver b / c and l / s and so on, and the effect of our bombers on the German station is also not calculated )
    1. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 20: 21
      +2
      For this, military leaders are taught in academies as managers and to calculate the consequences of hostilities also taught in academies, but how a military leader can do this depends on his knowledge and talent, because management is half science and half art.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 30 November 2013 15: 30
    +4
    Some kind of verbal diarrhea from a mixture of Soviet and German propaganda, minus. Although the separation of the many-month fortifications over 17 hours was a fact, Vatutin, who had to spread his troops in a thin layer on the defensive, always considered the plan of operation unsuccessful. If 4: 1 were lost, the balance of power would have changed in favor of the Germans, that is, they would have won the battle, which in fact did not happen, although the German loss reports are a very funny thing, it remains only to find out how the Germans lost for the whole 41 the year allegedly there were only 800 people in all categories, all of a sudden they started to retreat, and retreated all winter, but the losses killed in 500 + to the people to the Battle of Kursk are from the field of anecdotes.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 30 November 2013 16: 18
    +6
    Now all liberal propaganda has hit the battle of Kursk, realizing that this was a turning point in the course of the war. The battle of Prokhorovka and the loss ratio of 1 to 6 are cited as an example. Dear, one should remember that in the 5th Guards Tank Army of Rotmistrov the number of light tanks of the T-60, T-70 type amounted to 40%, about which he himself wrote in a letter to Stalin. And then the number of losses changes dramatically, do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended. Everything falls into place. Guderian himself recognized Kursk as the defeat of the German armored forces, after which they could not recover. Let the rest of the digital be on the conscience of Goebbels and his followers.
    1. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 20: 35
      0
      Tank64rus
      "do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended"
      The main type of hostilities is an offensive, it is carried out to destroy the enemy. You are trying to refute this truth, because if the attacker loses more than the defender, then what is the point of the attack.
      The battle of Prokhorovka should be considered as a meeting battle - the most difficult type of battle that the Germans won due to the insufficient combat experience of our military commanders at that moment.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 November 2013 21: 36
      +1
      The attacker often loses less, since only the density of troops matters. Prokhorovka is only one episode, not too successful for us, instead of a flank attack, a head-on collision came out.
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 30 November 2013 16: 18
    +1
    Now all liberal propaganda has hit the battle of Kursk, realizing that this was a turning point in the course of the war. The battle of Prokhorovka and the loss ratio of 1 to 6 are cited as an example. Dear, one should remember that in the 5th Guards Tank Army of Rotmistrov the number of light tanks of the T-60, T-70 type amounted to 40%, about which he himself wrote in a letter to Stalin. And then the number of losses changes dramatically, do not forget that the attacker loses 3 times more than the one who defended. Everything falls into place. Guderian himself recognized Kursk as the defeat of the German armored forces, after which they could not recover. Let the rest of the digital be on the conscience of Goebbels and his followers.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 30 November 2013 16: 26
    +1
    And what, let me ask you, is the message of this article? This is almost a direct reprint of the official-naphthalene twelve-volume, another 60s ...
    To highlight the heroism of our ancestors? So this does not need confirmation and complaints, does it? Nafig such "popular" articles to post something?
    After all, something, but the Battle of Kursk in general, and Prokhorovka in particular, were chewed-requested a hundred times. After all, there is Zamulin, Lopukhovsky, Starostin, Isaev, Thomas Yents with his Panzertruppen at last ... Yes, indeed, our losses in defense, in people and in technology were four times higher than the German ... What are they shy of? They fought as they could ...
    The Germans, in total in GA "Yug" and "Center" participating in the operation, had just over 1000 tanks and self-propelled guns of all types, and not 2700 ... And so in everything, as possible today, after so much research and the publication of so many documents , to believe the Soviet semi-official propaganda writings half a century ago?
    Here, for example, the combat report of the headquarters of the Voronezh Front number 01398 beginning. General Staff of the losses from July 4 to July 22:

    Killed - 20.577

    Missing - 25.898

    Captured - 29

    Total irretrievable loss of life - 46.504

    Wounded - 54.427

    Total casualties - 100.931.

    Tanks and self-propelled guns - 1.628

    Guns and mortars - 3.609

    Aircraft - 387 (with crashed).

    Sorry, but here only the Voronezh Front, and in its combat report (official document!) Lost 1628 tanks and self-propelled guns
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 47
      +1
      Quote: Amphitious
      The Germans, in total in GA "Yug" and "Center" participating in the operation, had just over 1000 tanks and self-propelled guns of all types, and not 2700 ...

      Well, about the report of the Voronezh Front, of course, I do not argue.
      But the number of tanks the Germans from what report?
      With 1000 tanks in units to begin such a large-scale operation? That is unlikely... It was not fools who commanded in Germany.
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 1 December 2013 18: 28
        0
        Thomas Yents. Panzertruppen. And his book about Kursk.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 4 December 2013 20: 40
          +1
          The troupe of this Yents is clearly noble, but as a reliable truth, I can’t accept him. request
          In particular, because of the opinion, for example, of the German military historian, Mr. Görlitz, who wrote that "the last (German) units capable of an offensive burned down and turned into slag." Also, such famous German military as Gen. G. Guderian, gene. Tippelskirch and others.
          A military defeat is nothing more, roughly speaking, as a loss. Moreover, those that would not make it possible to achieve the strategic goals of a military company (battle, battle)
          Or, someone normal doubts that a successful attack on Oryol and Kharkov, defended by those who did not bear most serious losses German troops could be successful?
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 November 2013 18: 09
    +6
    Quote: Amphitious
    Yes, indeed, our losses in defense, in people and in technology were four times higher than the German ... What are they shy of? They fought as they could ...

    Where do these numbers come from 4: 1? Is this official statistics, or is it possible to calculate our total current, while the Germans only have combat? Che does not fit strategic defense with such losses. They knew how to fight no worse than the Germans - nefig produce idols where they weren’t.
    Quote: Amphitious
    Sorry, but here only the Voronezh Front, and in its combat report (official document!) Lost 1628 tanks and self-propelled guns

    The interception of a strategic initiative is acceptable. By the way, how to calculate the losses that the Wehrmacht suffered as a result of the retreat and loss of initiative?
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 November 2013 18: 15
    +4
    Quote: Reyngard
    Yes ... Eternal glory ... And the fact that the Germans were thrown into corpses instead of caps, no one will say?

    No one will say. This contradicts the loss figures of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht. About 11-12 million people from the USSR and 7-9 million. from Germany. To a ratio of 4 to 1, it will be far away. Moreover, on the side of the Germans, the military fought from all over Europe.
    1. Eugeniy_369
      Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 03: 44
      -2
      Quote: DesToeR
      Moreover, on the side of the Germans, the military fought from all over Europe.

      Then why should the Germans lose them only? You yourself refute.
      Subtract from this number of satellites and allies and the difference will increase. And singing about the civilian population is not necessary, in the subject. And where did the figure of 11-12 million come from? Like for 20 speech goes ... or do you think the military? Only the Germans for some reason take the general, a closer look .... just argue then operate on the facts.
  • DimychDV
    DimychDV 30 November 2013 18: 55
    +8
    In the second half of the 80s I was a newspaperman, writing down the story of a resident of Primorye who served in a field tank repair workshop. He said when, after the battle, they arrived at the field near Prokhorovka - by the end of the day, the new lieutenant went crazy. The picture was as if the tanks were fighting hand-to-hand. The burning thirty-four, unable to knock out the "Tiger", rammed it. And this is not in one place, but in a tank - four, and this collective rage seemed to hang after the battle over heaps of burnt, twisted, scattered metal across the field. About half of the tanks on both sides had their turrets torn off by detonation of ammunition: for ours - the result of a hit, for the Germans - the result of a battering ram, for some reason in our ammunition stowage it detonated less often on impact. Others simply burned to the ground, some were knocked out, but the dead had not yet been removed ... Someone was turned around on a torn off caterpillar, and he beat the Germans who passed by in the rear until he was burned. At that, the transmission crumbled at full speed, and he was shot, he may have managed to shoot just a couple of shells in the attack. The Tigers have chipped holes, traces of hits on the frontal armor, but not a single one. Only hitting the hull from the side or pursuing those who missed them, into the turrets - they rarely hit, apparently, they tried to get into the engine compartment. Although at the beginning of the attack, ours, warned in advance, tried to hit the chassis - the tracks. Frontal, lateral, tangential rams, a tank that took off on a tank, overturned vehicles came across more than once ... Of their unit, they were able to return only two tanks to service, scored some more spare parts, and gave up on the rest: they can only be repaired at the factory, and then the capital ...
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 30 November 2013 19: 15
      +7
      .................................................. ..
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 2 December 2013 11: 55
        +1
        part of the photo 41
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 November 2013 19: 26
    +1
    And they say there was no oncoming battle ... Yes, this is probably the first and only battle in history, when tanks massively went "hand-to-hand" against each other. Well, in hand-to-hand, you do not care on the Tiger or on the Panther - the Russian will do one thing
    1. Eugeniy_369
      Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 03: 52
      -2
      Quote: DesToeR
      Yes, this is probably the first and only battle in history, when tanks massively went "hand-to-hand" against each other.

      Well ... the Germans did not go anywhere, stood and shot our tankmen. They managed to go on the defensive and deployed flanks. And there is no need here to drive snowstorm on uropatriotism. Read not the officialdom of the times of the CPSU, but the dry statistics of battles in that company.
      PS Nonsense and the "historian" looks better heh ... No German tanks went to hand-to-hand combat And do not drive about patriotism, my grandfather participated a little .... cried when he talked about this battle ....
  • Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 30 November 2013 19: 34
    +3
    Author: Metelkin A.F. (ed.)
    Title: Memo to the tank crews on the fight of our tanks with enemy tanks
    Publisher: Military Publishing House of the NPO of the USSR
    Год издания: 1942
    Format: PDF
    Russian language
    Pages: 16
    Size: 8,8 MB

    Description: From the book: "There are many means to fight fascist tanks, but the best means of fighting them are still our tanks as highly mobile combat vehicles with powerful weapons and armor protection. Our tanks have a number of advantages over German vehicles in armament and armor. and are a formidable force in the fight against enemy tanks. Fascist tankers are afraid of our heavy and medium tanks. Soviet tankers! Destroy fascist tanks, exterminate Hitler's gangs! "
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 30 November 2013 20: 02
      +3
      Here about him and the burning animals. They stand on joke in glory of the Red Army. A rattling menagerie was caged into the cage with thunderous fire.
  • Alf
    Alf 30 November 2013 20: 45
    +7
    "The commander of the 2nd battalion of the 6th Panzer Division, Major Franz Becke, on the night of July 11, using captured T34s, captured the heavily fortified town of Rzhavets. At the same time, he personally destroyed three Soviet tanks with hand-held anti-tank weapons ..."
    Interesting, interesting ... The commander of a tank battalion during the battle should be either in the tank or on the CP.
    He had nothing else to do, how to get out of the tank or throw the command post (during the battle, which the tribunal of any army recognizes as dithering) and run to personally shoot at Soviet tanks? Even Lieutenant Maleshkin, who does not have combat experience, from "War as in War" answered such a request: The crew must be in a tank during the battle. And what MANUAL anti-tank weapons did not exist then? Or was he running ahead of his advancing tanks with magnetic mines? I wonder how the German special department looked at this heroism after the battle? This is not even an exaggeration, but already hunting tales.
    1. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 22: 16
      -1
      Quote from Wikipedia: In January 1943, 500 grenade launchers entered the Wehrmacht.
      You can look at other sites
      1. user1212
        user1212 1 December 2013 17: 38
        +2
        The tank troops? Why in the tank troops grenade launchers? And where did he take them? It will not fit into the tank, and it is dangerous to carry it on the armor. And the range of those grenade launchers is about 20 meters maximum. That is, he came up (with three grenade launchers) point-blank and shot 3 tanks?
        1. corn
          corn 1 December 2013 19: 19
          -1
          You are given the opportunity to look and see that the effective range is 30m, and you are your speculation.
          1. user1212
            user1212 3 December 2013 04: 36
            0
            Does it change anything?
    2. DimychDV
      DimychDV 1 December 2013 13: 48
      +1
      It is with us that sometimes two sensible majors are only suitable for commanding the barrier. The Germans met such. But here, I think, more often. Our land was defended, and the majors did not go out on staff chairs, but on the front line.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 30 November 2013 21: 18
    0
    Yes, yes, of course, hand-to-hand, let’s tear everyone, yeah ... Not tired?

    The battlefield near Prokhorovka remained in the hands of the Germans, and all night from 12 to 13 July, German sapper teams blew up destroyed Soviet tanks. This is just a chronological and historical fact. Regardless of the degree of militant patriotism. Once again: read Isaev, Zamulin, Lopukhovsky, there are studies of 700-800 pages, a sea of ​​archival documents. Not those times now, in order to sprinkle agitation ... Everything is available. Much researched. There is no point in hiding your ignorance, laziness, and often even stupidity behind pathos and general rants about patriotism and the exploits of grandfathers. Really a patriot? Are you really interested? "Books to the teeth" and forward. It is not necessary to pour out slogans on the mind, this is the truth.

    ------ Where do these 4: 1 numbers come from? Is this official statistics or is it possible to calculate our total current, but the Germans only fighting? ------

    no, these are documentary statistics, Our losses are about our documents, German - according to German. Ours attracted many times more forces and means - thoroughly prepared. Moreover, there was no certainty that the Germans would not pass — there wasn’t. for before that the Germans, in the summer battles, tore the fronts and defenses, in spite of any superiority in people and technology. The 42nd year in Stavka was remembered perfectly. 41st too.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 30 November 2013 21: 38
    0
    And yet, what kind of "tank hand-fighting" could have been if the bulk of Soviet tanks were separated from the German ones by our own, abandoned, but as usual, according to our races, an uncharted anti-tank ditch?
  • sigdoc
    sigdoc 30 November 2013 21: 49
    0
    The Germans tried with two blows to cut off the Kursk ledge that they did not succeed, and the field near Prokhorovka does not change anything, because is one of the episodes of the Battle of Kursk, which the Red Army undoubtedly won
    1. corn
      corn 30 November 2013 22: 26
      -3
      It is a sin not to win with an advantage in manpower and means.
      1. smile
        smile 30 November 2013 22: 48
        +7
        corn
        This never stopped the Germans - and they often gave us a neck in this ratio, and they simply smeared our allies. The Germans were very good at concentrating efforts, creating an advantage, sometimes multiple, including the number of infantry, in the narrow areas where they were attacked. Nobody except our Germans could contain such blows. And even more so to drive them.
        By the way, about superiority in tanks - when do you compare tanks. What German tanks do you compare our lungs with, which we had almost half of, which are a priori incomparable even with their medium tanks? Comparing them is the same if you give a carbine to your hands, and five to your opponents a slingshot, and declare that they surpass you in strength and means by five times. :))) Sorry, for the tightness of the comparison, because not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :)))
        1. corn
          corn 1 December 2013 00: 00
          0
          smile
          Quote from the article: "Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million people, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, over 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft excluding the reserve Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in humans - 1,4 times, in artillery - 1,9 times, in tanks and self-propelled guns - 1,2 times, and in aircraft - 1,4 times "
          I relied only on the numbers given in the article.
          Try to refute.
          1. smile
            smile 1 December 2013 05: 33
            +1
            corn
            Your calculations have not refuted anything. what I said in my comment. Not a water letter. \ I allow myself real rudeness and again quote myself:

            “This never stopped the Germans - and they often kicked us in the neck with such a ratio, and they simply smeared the allies. No one except ours could hold back such attacks of the Germans, and even more so to drive them away.
            By the way, about superiority in tanks - when you compare tanks. with which German tanks do you compare our light tanks, of which we had almost half, which a priori are incomparable even with their medium tanks? Comparing them is the same if you give a carbine in your hands, and give your five opponents a slingshot, and declare that they are five times superior in strength and means. :))) Sorry, for the tension of the comparison, since not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :))) "

            Try to refute ... you are tormented ... and you yourself understand this ... no one belittles the ability of the Germans to fight ... but do not belittle our ability to fight .... which we acquired at a very high price ..... Anglo-Saxons they didn’t acquire such a skill ... at any cost .... by the end of the war, we were the one who beat them like that with skill. how they beat us at the beginning .... you can’t notice it only intentionally .... congratulations ...
            1. corn
              corn 1 December 2013 09: 20
              0
              I can not afford any rudeness due to the shortcomings of my education.

              The fact that I deliberately did not enter into a polemic with you, you correctly noted.

              I did not compare anything, I only expressed my opinion and cited the data from the article.

              Compare, something you began.

              "By the way, about superiority in tanks - when you compare tanks. What German tanks do you compare our light tanks with, of which we had almost half, which a priori are incomparable even with their medium tanks? To compare them is the same if you give a carbine in your hands, and five of your opponents on a slingshot, and declare that they are five times superior in strength and resources. :))) Forgive me for the tension of comparison, since not everything depends on the tanks, but still ... :) )) "These are your words.

              Judging by your statement, the Germans had carbines and we had slingshots, or did I misunderstand something?

              I still do not understand, our tanks are better or worse (in your estimation).

              Now, please, your evidence in the studio that we had almost half of the tanks were light (in the Battle of Kursk).

              “It’s a sin not to win with an advantage in strength and means.” These are my words that you didn’t like.
              Where is the diminution of someone’s ability to fight. With approximately equal ability to fight, the result is logical, WE WIN, it would be strange if we lost.

              What should I refute, tormented?

              You begin to talk about the ability to fight the Anglo-Saxons, I think they were not in the Battle of Kursk.

              The article does not widely address the issue of the ability to fight not at the beginning, not at the end of the war. I noticed this and did not speak out on this subject. On this subject you vyskaytes.

              With what you congratulate me, I did not understand.
      2. corn
        corn 1 December 2013 20: 15
        0
        I repeat, I don’t give a damn about minuses, even to skulls.
        I want to hear the opinion: what is the incorrectness of my statement.
        And so this is GAV from the gateway.
        I DO NOT think that the smile put me all four minus one.
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 30 November 2013 22: 13
    +2
    finally, when describing the battle, the exploits of ordinary soldiers are voiced. the truth is, as always, exaggerated. it’s like the heroic commander of a machine gun company of 300 soldiers, 200 he personally destroyed! the question is how did he prepare his soldiers if he himself had to destroy the Nazis? floridly described until it was established at height. So they had to drape?
    if in all the accomplished feats both on our and their sides look, all the equipment on both sides should have been destroyed.
    but this is all politics. it was necessary to inspire people for heroic deeds, they needed to be awarded and to pay money for destroyed tanks. and it is right! this is what holy lies say.
  • Alexey M
    Alexey M 30 November 2013 22: 54
    +2
    By July 13, in a platoon of anti-tank rifles of the 284th Guards. rifle regiment guards. Senior Lieutenant Pavel Shpetny remained only 9 soldiers. With the last bullets, the soldiers knocked out 6 tanks and died themselves in an unequal battle. When the cartridges ran out, Pavel Shpetny with a bunch of anti-tank grenades threw himself under the seventh enemy tank.
    What kind of heroes are the winners on HRW Vitman? They stopped the Nazis with their lives.
    And you procrastinate who and how where where petty you are petty.
  • Amfitsion
    Amfitsion 30 November 2013 23: 10
    +2
    All the hell, nightmare and bloodthirsty for us of the Battle of Kursk, for me personally is expressed in a brief excerpt from an interview with the commander of the machine gun platoon of the 399th Rifle Regiment of the 111th Rifle Division Kalisha, M.M.
    "How many people were in your platoon?
    - Twenty-four men in a platoon, fighters of 13 nationalities ...
    With the exception of me and Sergeant Vanyukhin, they all died in battles near Belgorod.
    According to the company clerk, over the two months of summer battles on the Kursk-Oryol Bulge, 150 people passed through my machine-gun platoon alone ... "

    So, there are six complete convoys ... Who is killed, who is injured, who are missing, who are captured ...
  • serezhafili
    serezhafili 30 November 2013 23: 24
    +2
    For some reason, no one remembers the main advantage of German tanks - sights ... On ours, at a distance of 600-800, well, a maximum of 1000m, the image doubled, tripled and blurred. It became impossible to aim fire. And the Germans, with their Zeiss sights from 2500m, were shooting our tanks, in fact, being safe. By the way, Stalin was furious for this "oncoming battle" and was going to remove Rotmistrov from office and put him under a tribunal ... According to Rotmistrov himself!
  • Alf
    Alf 1 December 2013 00: 13
    +1
    Quote: corn
    smile
    Quote from the article: "Soviet troops, numbering more than 1,3 million people, 19,1 thousand guns and mortars, over 3,4 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 2,9 thousand aircraft excluding the reserve Steppe Front, outnumbered the enemy in humans - 1,4 times, in artillery - 1,9 times, in tanks and self-propelled guns - 1,2 times, and in aircraft - 1,4 times "
    I relied only on the numbers given in the article.
    Try to refute.

    And can you more accurately find out the breakdown of the types of our tanks and German?
  • Leksander
    Leksander 1 December 2013 03: 58
    +2
    "Tigers" are burning ... and on the very first photo a thirty-four is broken into a tease! Strange presentation of information. I would even say western.
  • Leksander
    Leksander 1 December 2013 03: 58
    0
    "Tigers" are burning ... and on the very first photo a thirty-four is broken into a tease! Strange presentation of information. I would even say western.
  • vladstro
    vladstro 1 December 2013 09: 20
    +1
    Yes, and the allies, as usual, looked and waited for someone, and when they landed in the ardennes in all new with the thought, now we will show these Germans and Russians how to fight, and Hitler’s second-rate divisions kicked them there, so scream help! save! But what would the Anglo-Saxons do with Hitler if not the Soviet Union, a millennial Reich would really be established.
    1. Amfitsion
      Amfitsion 1 December 2013 13: 45
      -1
      I propose to open a school history textbook at least, and at least try to read what is written there, "they landed in the Ardennes" ...
      And by the way: out of every three German tanks and self-propelled guns produced since the summer of the 44th, two went to fight against the Allies.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 December 2013 10: 51
    0
    Quote: Eugeniy_369
    Then why should the Germans lose them only? You yourself refute. Subtract from this number of satellites and allies and the difference will increase. And singing about the civilian population is not necessary, in the subject. And where did the figure of 11-12 million come from? Like for 20 speech goes ... or do you think the military? Only the Germans for some reason take the general, a closer look .... just argue then operate on the facts.

    I am not refuting myself. Read the article "Losses of the USSR and Germany in the Second World War" on this site and everything will become clear to you. There, and about "combat" and about "irrevocable" and about the loss of civilians. I gave the figures for the combat losses of the armed forces of the USSR and Germany. Losses of the civilian population are not taken into account here. they reflect not the effectiveness of the Red Army, but the banal brutality and sadism of the fascists. In May 1945, the Russians could completely strangle 10-20 million. occupied Germans, but they didn’t do it ... The combat losses of the Nazi satellites are estimated at about another 850 thousand plus 9 million. losses of the Germans. All the numbers from the article that I gave.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 December 2013 11: 08
    0
    Quote: Eugeniy_369
    Hmm ... the Germans did not go anywhere, they stood and shot our tankers. They managed to go over to the defensive and deployed their flanks. And there is no need to drive a blizzard here on Uryapatriotism. Read not the officialdom of the times of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and dry statistics of battles in that company. PS Nonsense, and even then the "historian" looks better. No German tanks went hand-to-hand.And no need to drive about patriotism, my grandfather took part a little ... he cried when he talked about this battle ...

    Have you read the article? Did you notice the memories of the PARTICIPANT in those events? There were not one or two battering rams. The "dry statistics" of battles do not reflect the fury and readiness of self-sacrifice that Soviet soldiers displayed in battle. There are enough articles on the Prokhorovka site, read it, there are testimonies not only of tank repairmen, but also of tankers. And they remember battering rams, and how the Germans jumped out of their entire tanks (it turns out it was not only Russians who jumped out of tanks), and about point-blank shooting, and not from behind tank ditches. "Nonsense of a gray mare" you dear drive, when from the assessment of the actions of the commander, you pass on "patriotism". This is a direct substitution of concepts.
    1. Eugeniy_369
      Eugeniy_369 1 December 2013 22: 57
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Have you read the article? Did you notice the memories of the PARTICIPANT in those events? There were not one or two battering rams. The "dry statistics" of battles do not reflect the fury and readiness of self-sacrifice that Soviet soldiers displayed in battle. There are enough articles on the Prokhorovka site, read it, there are testimonies not only of tank repairmen, but also of tankers. And they remember battering rams, and how the Germans jumped out of their entire tanks (it turns out it was not only Russians who jumped out of tanks), and about point-blank shooting, and not from behind tank ditches. "Nonsense of a gray mare" you dear drive, when from the assessment of the actions of the commander, you pass on "patriotism". This is a direct substitution of concepts.

      Hmm ... a lot of noise from nothing, I will not argue with you. I will remain with my opinion. hi
  • vvp2412
    vvp2412 1 December 2013 12: 08
    -1
    It is interesting that for the chmyrdyas they put cons !?
  • Kagulin
    Kagulin 1 December 2013 12: 11
    +4
    The enemy retreated and the battlefield remained with us. As Guderian himself said, "... And there were no more quiet days for the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front ..." What else is there to talk about?
    1. Bagatur
      Bagatur 1 December 2013 16: 20
      -2
      The difference in loss! If the Wehrmacht lost people and technology like the Red Army ... lost the war much earlier than 1945 ...
  • andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov 1 December 2013 12: 23
    0
    And in the first photo, the 34-ki truck and the broken (most likely exploded) tank in the background.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 1 December 2013 12: 46
    -7
    You can minus it, but I’ll say --- Hans surpassed us by an order of magnitude! Someone dislikes this truth, but it’s true --- crushed by quantity! Come on, continue to further praise your bloody Zhukov
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 1 December 2013 13: 01
      -1
      Here’s KARS, of course it’s Bandera, etc. But it’s dragging in armored vehicles. It will confirm to you that we were behind the Hans for 5 years (minimum)
      1. Alekseev
        Alekseev 1 December 2013 16: 53
        +1
        Quote: Den 11
        Here is KARS, of course it is Bandera, etc.

        That's right! yes
        Quote: Den 11
        But in armored vehicles drags.

        This is unlikely! The tops with their photos jumps! laughing
        Quote: Den 11
        Come on, continue to praise your bloody Zhukov

        So it is thanks to Zhukov, "The Hans were superior to us by an order of magnitude!"
        Thanks to the "voice of the enemy", enlightened! laughing
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 1 December 2013 17: 03
          -2
          Well, and you there too! And wrote competently ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 2 December 2013 10: 58
          +1
          Quote: Alekseev
          That's right!

          thank you
          Quote: Alekseev
          it’s unlikely! Jumps to the top with your photos

          Claim absolute knowledge? Or maybe they caught me where?

          But in fact, the Battle of Kursk showed the collapse of the ideas of positional defense. One instantly destroyed all types of resentment of historians-rezunistov about the possibility of the USSR otsedetsa in defense.
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 4 December 2013 20: 49
            0
            Quote: Kars
            Claim absolute knowledge?

            I do not pretend, but in some places I caught it! laughing
            I apologize, maybe my humor is rude!
            hi
            Do not take too literally ...
            How can a discussion "go on" without an emotional background? wink
            1. Kars
              Kars 4 December 2013 20: 54
              +2
              Quote: Alekseev
              I do not pretend, but in some places I caught

              don't you pretend

              And where did you catch, if not remind?
              Quote: Alekseev
              I apologize, maybe my humor is rude!

              as his humor I note, I will definitely keep in mind.
    2. bask
      bask 1 December 2013 13: 21
      +1
      Quote: Den 11
      -Hans exceeded us by an order of magnitude!

      Den Nazis did not exceed us by an order.
      Yes, they had the best optics, a brutal 88 mm anti-tank gun. All means.
      The armor of the Soviet tanks was always better. And to create a high-tech T-34, carpet assembly?
      Conveyor assembly of tanks could only be organized by the Americans,

      And most importantly, Russian Soviet soldiers fought like suicide bombers because they had nothing to lose. The Germans had death in the camp and behind, their orders were not a step back.
      Quote: Den 11
      Here is KARS ...... But in armored vehicles it drags.

      In Den tanks, only in tanks.

      THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER ALWAYS WAS ABOVE THE GERMAN.
      1. Amfitsion
        Amfitsion 1 December 2013 13: 54
        -2
        THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER ALWAYS WAS ABOVE THE GERMAN.

        Yes? And why, in some incomprehensible way, it turned out that the Germans served, including in combat units, more than a million of our former fellow citizens? And I dare to note that the vast majority of them are former servicemen of the Red Army. And even in the elite SS divisions, in the summer of the 43rd, up to 10% of the L / S were "Russian Khivi"? Are there any Cossacks? In no case should the heroism and self-sacrifice of our soldiers be underestimated, but it should also not be given out "on the mountain" with aplomb, such as "the Russians are superior in spirit to the Germans / Americans / Britons / emphasize the necessary" either. If it comes to that, then in spirit and self-sacrifice with the Japanese no one beats. Some, over there, until the 70s were partisans ...
        1. smile
          smile 1 December 2013 16: 19
          +2
          Amfitsion
          Please do not repeat the perestroika brechology about a million.
          In total, a little more than 700 thousand collaborated with the Germans - this is if we count the cooks in the burgomaster and the elders.
          Chi VI - about 350 thousand. They didn’t trust the weapons - it was a consumable for the Germans - slaves. Like those whom the Mongols drove in front of themselves during the storming of cities. Set there went something like this - either go to work, or go to the wall. I'm not sure I would choose a wall. We ran at the first opportunity. .Many, having escaped, still fought as part of the Red Army.
          The Baltic states are about a hundred thousand, Bandera about the same. In Russian formations - about 60 thousand, including SS men who called themselves Cossacks. About 40 more - different national formations. All.
          In fact - about 300 thousand.
          1. Amfitsion
            Amfitsion 1 December 2013 18: 40
            0
            I do not read "perestroika brechology". And I read, for example, fundamental research on the topic of collaborators, from Sergei Drobyazko, for example. Which I recommend to you.
      2. DimychDV
        DimychDV 1 December 2013 14: 01
        +3
        Apparently, the Fritzes had their own Turkins. And you reread the poem. Could this Fritz cope with a small need for an unexploded shell?
        The German soldier is serious, ”said the chairman of the city Council of Veterans, who had fought for two years in scouts. - Yes, but we are not a miss. And our position was stronger: we are right! And this well-fed and strong, skillful and confident son of a bitch - here he is a robber, adversary, killer. In one village I had a fight with one. Healthy - and a wimp against Russian dentistry. And mean-spirited - everything strove to kick me in the wounded leg. But before, he flew into full knockout.
      3. Day 11
        Day 11 1 December 2013 14: 01
        -2
        Dear BASK! Do you know why I can’t post such a photo from the Soviet side? Because it doesn’t exist! It was at the most shabby Hans corporal there was a fotik --- ours, you know! I understand your indignation --- but it's true from which you will not run away! As for the armor --- do not be fooled by yourself. Armor-piercing into the tower --- with fragments inside, everything !!!
        1. bask
          bask 1 December 2013 14: 39
          +4
          Quote: Den 11
          the most shabby Hans corporal was a fotik --- ours, you understand

          Naturally Den, only 10-11 years have passed since the start of industrialization of the country.
          What has been done in 10 years ?????
          The Germans always fought well, competently, but our grandfathers in the Second World War broke the back of the nation .. and won even without the help of the West.
          Quote: Amphitious
          self-sacrifice with the Japanese no one compares. Some of them, until the 70s, were partisan ...

          The millionth Kwantung army, partisans ,,, was simply destroyed in 3 weeks.
          Japan killed about 84 thousand soldiers and officers, 600 thousand people.
          The irretrievable losses of the Soviet Army amounted to about 12 thousand people.

          Quote: Den 11
          a similar photo from the Soviet side


          For me, the photo of the Second World War, this is only the total genocide of the RUSSIAN people ... From the side of the ....
          And the victory gained by GREAT BLOOD, mainly by the RUSSIAN PEOPLE !!!!!