Military Review

"Black Baron", "White Knight" ...

90
1914-th year was the beginning of the rapid career of the last leader of the White movement in the Civil War, P.N. Wrangel


"Black Baron", "White Knight" ...The name of Peter Nikolayevich Wrangel is inextricably linked with the final stage of the Civil War - the battle for the Crimea. Among the White Guard emigrants, he was called the "last knight of the white movement." For the Soviet people, Wrangel always remained a “black baron” who “again prepares the royal throne for us”.

In the famous Soviet isterne, the New Adventures of the Elusive, the slogan "Destroy Wrangel" is depicted on the banner of a detachment of red cavalry fighting with the "black" army of Burnash. And the gloomy classical portrait of the Baron (a tall, haughty man with a pale face, thick black eyebrows and mustache, in a black fur hat and a black Circassian with gas-holes), directed by E.G. Keosayan uses in the brilliant mimic scene of the ataman’s story about his defeat in the “steppes of Kherson region”.

“Pay attention to the tragic coincidence: nine ... one ... four ... Nine hundred and fourteenth year - the beginning of the war (from the film" New Adventures of the Elusive ").

Meanwhile, Wrangel, to whom the “Card of Colonel Kudasov” was intended, in real life had enough reason to choose for the mythical cipher the year of the beginning of the First World War. Tragic for world and russian stories - 1914-th year was the beginning of the rapid career of the last leader of the White movement in the Civil War.


You will break, but you will not bend

That was the motto of the ancient noble family of Wrangel. Originally from Lower Saxony, Wrangel at the beginning of the XIII century moved first to Denmark, and then settled in Estland (present-day Estonia). Subsequently, they served in the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, the kings of Sweden, who bestowed upon the family baronial title, Prussia, Austria, Holland, Spain. In total, the Wrangel genus gave Europe 55 field marshals, generals and admirals.

Wrangels fought with Russian neighbors from time immemorial. In the army of King Charles XII, 79 barons of this kind served. Thirteen of them were killed near Poltava, and seven died in Russian captivity. However, after the accession of the Baltic states, part of the Wrangel, in order to preserve their land holdings, which were considered in the 17th century to be the largest private patrimonial possessions in the Swedish state, went to work for the Russian sovereign.

Representatives of the Russified branch fought against their relatives in the Seven Years War and the Russian-Swedish war 1789-1790, participated in the Patriotic War 1812 and the Crimean War, the Russian-Turkish and Russian-Persian wars of the XIX century., Suppressed the Polish uprising 1831 and pacified the recalcitrant Caucasus.
In Russia, Wrangel’s military vocation was not the only one, although the main one. Among the exceptions, it is impossible not to mention the famous geographer and traveler Ferdinand (Fedor) Petrovich, whose name is named island in the Arctic Ocean.

A remarkable role Wrangel played in Russian literature.

The grandfather of the “black baron”, Yegor Yermolaevich, was married to Darya Alexandrovna Raush von Traubenberg, Abram Petrovich Gannibal's granddaughter. The great poet was her second cousin. In “The Captain's Daughter” and “Pugachev's Stories”, Alexander Sergeevich mentions the grandfather of his relative, General MM. Traubenberg, murdered by the rebels. It is the Hannibal roots that explain the curliness of the “black baron” in his youth, thick blue-black eyebrows and mustaches.

Moreover, Wrangel's uncle, Alexander Ermolaevich, from childhood was read out by the “Poor people and“ White nights ”of the beginner F.M. Dostoevsky, was present at the dramatization of the execution of the "Petrashevists". In 1853, he abandoned his career in the capital and went to the post of prosecutor precisely in Semipalatinsk, where he pulled the soldiers' strap after the penal servitude of Fyodor Mikhailovich. 1852 to 1859 Baron Wrangel helped his idol with money, bothered to confer an officer's rank and permission to return to Central Russia, and promoted the writer's marriage.

Literary talents are clearly manifested in the work of Father Peter Wrangel. Nikolai Egorovich not only composed the plays in his youth (irony of fate - dedicated to the heroes of the Time of Troubles), but left interesting memoirs.

In general, Nikolai Egorovich was the “black sheep” in his family. How not to recall the famous and typical for noble families plot of Turgenev's Fathers and Sons: unlike the feudal father, whom Herzen attacked angrily in Kolokol, the son was an ardent fan of the latter, even listened to the anarchist theorist Bakunin in Geneva.

However, upon returning to Russia, the University of Gottingen PhD and an ardent “Westernizer” directed his idealism into the practical field of commerce. Baron Wrangel got a job in a large company ROPIT (Russian Shipping and Trade Society). Initially, the company was engaged in the transportation of pilgrims to Palestinian shrines. However, with 1867, the company has monopolized mail delivery between Russia and the countries of the Middle East. By the way, it was the ships of this company that took white immigrants from the Crimea to 1920.

In 1877, Nikolai Egorovich got married with Maria Dmitrievna Dementieva-Maykova in Odessa. The mother of the future leader of the white movement was a relative of the poet A.N. Maikova, also a close friend of Dostoevsky. His grandfather, a famous bibliophile and friend of Pushkin, is Anna Pavlovna Kern's cousin. A famous Pushkin poem “I remember a wonderful moment” was dedicated to her.

In 1878, the firstborn Peter was born in the Wrangel family. Two years later, the second son, Nikolai, in the future a well-known art historian, one of the organizers of the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, a close friend of A. Benoit, N. Roerich, S. Dyagilev, A. Schusev. The third son, Vsevolod, was born in 1884.

The children of Wrangel lived in prosperity, but were not spoiled by excessive care. Parents did not impose any career on them and provided an opportunity to decide their own fate.

In connection with the service of Nikolai Egorovich in ROPIT, the family lived in Rostov (now Rostov-on-Don). Passion for hunting in the foothills of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, the stories of veterans, Cossacks and Highlanders, about past wars from early childhood influenced Peter's decision to become a military man.

In the Petrovsky real school, the younger Wrangels were moderately average: due to their upbringing at home, they lacked perseverance and hard work. In 1895, the family, after the death of the youngest son of Vsevolod, who died of diphtheria, and the departure of Nikolai Egorovich from ROPIT, moved to St. Petersburg. Peter Wrangel entered the Mining Institute. Judging by the secondary and higher education, the father hoped that the firstborn would make a career as an engineer and become an industrialist. The hopes of Nikolai Egorovich were fully justified: his career went up. Thanks to meeting with the Minister of Finance S.Yu. Witte, he joined the boards of directors of several large companies (Russian Gold Industry Company, Bibi-Aibat Oil Society, which controlled oil fields in Baku, Russian Electric Company Siemens-Galsk).

However, the son did not quite live up to his father’s expectations: at least in the engineering and industrial fields. After graduating from the Mining Institute with a gold medal in 1902, Peter Wrangel did not take advantage of the privilege that gave exemption from military service, and according to the clan tradition he entered as a volunteer Life Guards Regiment. A year later, he passed the exam for the rank of cornet guard and was enlisted in the reserve. A big war was not foreseen at that time, and the ambitious baron did not intend to serve in peacetime.


Fight - his element

The outbreak of the Russo-Japanese war tore a retired horse guard from service as an official for special assignments under the governor-general of Eastern Siberia. Guard officers were forbidden to participate in hostilities, but already in February 1904 of the year managed to achieve enlistment in the 2 of the Verkhneudinsky regiment of the Transbaikalian Cossack army in the detachment of General PK Rennenkampf. In the same detachment served as a lieutenant colonel and chief of staff Anton Denikin and future hetman of Ukraine Pavel Skoropadsky.

The detachment acted in the rear of the enemy in Manchuria. This actually neutral territory was controlled not so much by the weak Chinese government as by the field commanders of the Hunghusians, local bandits. The Hunghuzes largely anticipated the activities of the future Chinese mafia: their leaders were elected and had unlimited power, never fought with each other, preferring to peacefully divide the territory. Contrary to the first deceptive impression, they were serious opponents: they fought desperately, to the last patron, preferring death to captivity. During the campaign against them, Rennencamp himself was wounded in the neck and leg, all of his adjutants and orderlies were injured or killed. Among them, Wrangel received a bullet in the chest: only the devotion of the Cossack who delivered our hero to the hospital in time saved him from death.

In this regard, it is impossible not to say that Rennenkampf, who became famous during the suppression of the Iheituan Chinese uprising in the 1900 year, always preferred to be in the foremost chains.

The personal example of the commander strongly influenced the young baron, convinced that the officer was obliged to personally manage the battle and take the initiative, not waiting for an order from the headquarters, but being guided by the combat situation.

Wrangel participated in raids and forays, conducted reconnaissance and seized the leaders of the Hunhuz, freed the hostages. Camping life in a volatile detachment was not easy: you had to starve, not to sleep, to make long and rapid marches in difficult climatic conditions. The first evacuation of Wrangel to the hospital occurred ... after a sunstroke!

Baron had a chance to make war with the Japanese as well: he participated in the battle of Shahe in the autumn of 1904. In June of 1905, Wrangel was transferred to the Separate scout division and fought in the battle of Mukden, which was lost by the Russians. The only one in his hundred, for this case he was awarded the Golden weapons.

For differences in battles with the Japanese, Pyotr Nikolayevich was also awarded the Orders of St. Anne IV and III degrees and the Order of St. Stanislav III degree with swords and bow, produced in the centurions, and then in the porchesaula. The future comrade-in-arms of the “black baron”, General P.N. Shatilov, noted that it was during the Manchurian war that “Wrangel instinctively felt that the struggle was his element, and his military work was his vocation.”

In early January, 1906, immediately after the end of the war, he was transferred to the 55 th Dragoon Finnish Regiment, and then assigned to the Northern retinue of His Imperial Majesty. He was to suppress the unrest of the first Russian revolution that had erupted throughout the empire. By chance, Wrangel did not have time to shed the blood of his compatriots: his detachment was spare and participated only in patrolling.

In March, 1907, he returned to his native Horse Guards Regiment, and in August he successfully entered the Nikolaev Academy of the General Staff, gaining 10,3 points from the 12 possible.

At the same time, Petr Nikolaevich Wrangel marries Olga Mikhailovna Ivanenko, sovereign of the Empress Alexandra Feodorovna. Ivanenko came from the hetman Mazepa family. Naturally, in order to dissociate themselves from the surname of the legendary traitor, the descendants were forced to change their surname. It is noteworthy that his grandfather was M.N. Katkov, a well-known publicist and publisher of Dostoevsky’s works.

The young couple in 1909 born daughter Elena, in 1911 - son Peter, in 1913 - daughter Natalia (until recently, the last of the direct descendants of the baron, died in 2013 g.). The youngest son Alex was born already in exile, in 1922.

Studying at the academy was given to the lieutenant easily despite the recollections of his classmate, B.М. Shaposhnikov, the future chief of the General Staff of the Red Army and Marshal of the Soviet Union. A graduate of the Mining Institute and an engineer by specialty, a participant in hostilities, Wrangel brilliantly passed the final exams. However, this study is not over. For admission to the General Staff, graduating officers were obliged to return for two years to command to command companies and squadrons in their regiments. By order of the cavalry inspector general, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich, the cavalry graduates were obliged to finish the Officer cavalry school. Wrangel horse riding lessons were just a joy. In October, 1911, Peter Nikolaevich returned to the Life Guards Cavalry Regiment again and was given the post of deputy squadron commander, and a year later - the rank of captain and the commander of the 3 squadron.

The future of Wrangel is now defined: gradual advancement through the ranks from rank to rank, measured regimental life, secular balls, officer meetings, military parades.

High (1 and 93 cm), a thin horse guards officer, are remembered by an excellent dancer and manager at the balls, a witty and easy-to-communicate party of officer meetings, and a fascinating interlocutor.

His job description is also flawless: “Captain Baron Wrangel is an excellent squadron commander.

Brilliantly prepared by the military. Vigorous. Dashing. Demanding and very conscientious. Included in the little things of life squadron. Good friend. Good rider. A little too hot ... Beautiful morality.
In the full sense of the word, an outstanding squadron commander ”.


Wrangel's Great War

By World War I, the Russian cavalry, in which Captain Wrangel served, was considered the best in Europe. This concerned far not only Cossacks, but also regular units. In an individual battle, in riding skills and in close-range attack (“shock tactics”), the Russian cavalry was an order of magnitude superior to any European. The weak side of the Russian cavalry was weak interaction (compared to the German army) with infantry and artillery. It is noteworthy that the German cavalry whenever faced with Russian horsemen, retreated under the cover of artillery or infantry.

For the Russian cavalry, the lessons of the Russian-Japanese war turned out to be inapplicable in the First World War. Instead of raids, breakthroughs of the front line - horsemen were driven into the trenches. At the same time, cavalry, as an elite branch of the military, which was personally patronized by Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich, who became 1914 in August, the Supreme Commander, was not usually used as cannon fodder, which was infantry. Losses of regular cavalry officers are not comparable with losses of regular infantry officers. That is why cavalry officers will become the backbone of both the White movement and the Red Army in the Civil War. In addition to Wrangel - P.N. Krasnov, V.O. Kappel, A.N. Pepelyaev, G.K. Mannerheim, B.V. Annenkov, A.M. Kaledin, A.G. Skins. In the same way, junior officers and ordinary cavalry will go over to the side of the new Soviet government - SM. Budyonny, C.K. Tymoshenko, G.K. Zhukov, K.K. Rokossovsky, A.I. Eremenko, PS Fishing

One way or another, there are few examples of successful cavalry attacks in the positional First World War. Among such exceptions is the Battle of Causeni, which glorified the name of Wrangel.

On the morning of August 6 1914, the equestrian group of General G. Khan Nakhichevansky, attributed to the 1 Army General of Infantry PK PK Rennenkampf, consisting of two guards and two army cavalry divisions and eight cavalry-artillery batteries, attacked the German Landwehr Brigade and two batteries (one on the front, and the other - across the river, in the second line of fortifications). The balance of power was in favor of the Russians: the cavalry division in terms of firepower approximately corresponded to the 1-2 German battalions. However, the Germans from the very beginning took a favorable position in the village and became stronger - while the Russians did not even have time to conduct reconnaissance. About seven thousand Russians took part in the battle against six thousand Germans at the front about six miles away.

From the very beginning, the dismounted cavalry regiments, which attacked in three dense columns, came under disastrous fire. The attack choked, but attacks with interruptions continued all day.

The Russians suffered heavy casualties, advancing to their full height (it is not worthwhile for the guardsmen to attack to lay low, with dashes!) Against the German cannons and machine guns that shot them point-blank.

At a critical moment, by the evening, when one of the Germans' guns had failed, the captain Wrangel asked the commander of the 1 Guards Cavalry Division, General NN. Kaznakova throw into battle his last reserve - 3-th squadron, commanded by Baron. Skillfully hiding behind the folds of the ground and the woods, the squadron quickly covered the kilometer distance to the German battery and emerged right in front of it at a distance of 130 steps. The Germans, who did not expect such a swift and suicidal cavalry attack, did not have time to lift sight and the shots hit the horses. The attack was costly: all the squadron officers and 20 soldiers from 100 were killed. A horse was killed near Wrangel, and he received a light concussion as he flew out of the saddle. However, horse guardsmen led by a captain broke into the battery, chopped up gunners in hand-to-hand fighting and seized two guns. The Germans were forced to withdraw from Caushen. It was not by chance that later the commander of the Horse Guards Regiment, Gartman, wrote that brilliant horse attacks by an entire division and even a corps during the Civil War were a consequence of the faith that the battle had approved in Wrangel.

However, the tactical success of the 3-th squadron was not used. In the evening of August 6, Khan Nakhichevansky gave the order to withdraw the equestrian group to its initial positions for a three-day rest. The losses were big: 46 officers and 329 soldiers killed and wounded. The Causeni battle distracted the horse group from participation in the Gumbinnen battle.

Recall that the 1-I army of Rennenkampf and without the help of cavalry forced the enemy to retreat. It was after this defeat that the German General Headquarters was forced to transfer two corps from the French theater. The fateful decision led to the disruption of the Schlieffen plan: Germany lost the opportunity to quickly win the war.

However, after the Gumbinnen battle, Rennenkampf could not organize the pursuit of the defeated Germans due to the absence of cavalry, which was resting after the Kaushensk battle.

Kaushen glorified the captain Wrangel. He becomes the first officer in the Great War to be awarded the Order of St. George of the 4 degree.

Co-workers praise the personal courage of the baron. The spiteful critics point out that Wrangel’s success was deliberately inflated by the patriotic press, in order to divert attention from the heavy defeat of General Samsonov’s 2 army near Tannenberg.

However, Wrangel's career goes uphill. In September 1914, he was appointed Chief of Staff of the Consolidated Cavalry Division. In October, Tsar Nicholas II receives him, and a month later Baron Wrangel receives the rank of colonel and the post of adjutant retinue of His Majesty.

In February, the 1915 of Wrangel participates in the Prasnysh operation. At the head of the division, he successfully conducts reconnaissance, captures the crossing, consistently knocks out two companies of German infantry from three fortified positions, capturing prisoners and a wagon train. For the difference in cases against the enemy, the colonel is awarded the St. George weapon.

It should be noted that the relatives of the baron also seek to help the fatherland. Wife Olga Mikhailovna works in the sanitary facilities of the units commanded by her husband. The younger brother, Nikolai Nikolayevich, in October 1914 became authorized by the sanitary train, taking out the wounded from the front line. In June 1915, he dies of jaundice in a Warsaw hospital.

In October of the same year, Wrangel was appointed commander of the 1-th Nerchinsky regiment of the Trans-Baikal Cossack Army, who fought on the South-Western Front. When translating, the former commander gives Wrangel the following description: “Outstanding courage. Understands the situation beautifully and quickly, very resourceful in a difficult situation. " Under the command of Baron, the regiment conducted active hostilities on the Western Front as part of the Ussurian Cossack Division, for which he was repeatedly thanked by the division commander A.M. Krymov. So, 29 and 30 July 1916, the Nerchinsky regiment successfully fights in an unequal battle with the 43 German Infantry Regiment, reinforced with artillery. According to Krymov, in a difficult situation, Colonel Wrangel showed "skillful maneuvering and battle management."

22 August of the same year, participating in the attack, 1-th Nerchinsky regiment captured German 118, captures a large number of weapons and ammunition. Many officers of the regiment, including the Baron, were wounded, but remain in the ranks. For this case, the regiment of Wrangel receives a special honor - the patronage of Tsarevich Alexei.

In December, Wrangel was appointed to command the brigade, then the division, in January 1917 was made major general. The rank of general in just thirteen years of service is the fastest in the Russian army at the beginning of the 20th century.

The February Revolution, which has broken out, puts an end to his military career. It was not only the ideological motives, although Wrangel was a staunch monarchist. No wonder then the Red Army men sang:

"White Army, Black Baron

They are preparing the royal throne for us again. ”

Wrangell understands that his military career is over. In the conditions of the disintegration of the army and the loss of unity of command, victory over a disciplined opponent cannot be won, and the ambitious baron is not used to defeat.

In August, 1917 of the year, having gone into conflict with members of the army committee who undermined the discipline and confidence of the soldiers in the officers, Wrangel refuses to take command of the cavalry corps and writes a resignation report in which he explicitly states that “he never changed his convictions and would not change ".

Wrangel is even more negative about the coming to power of the Bolsheviks. There were personal reasons for that: in 1918, the red commissioners almost executed a retired general in Crimea. Saved only selfless intervention of his wife, who asked to shoot her with her husband. It is only after this episode that Wrangel decides to join the White movement and take part in a fratricidal war. The rise and fall of the future Ruler of the South of Russia is just beginning ...
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  1. Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 30 November 2013 09: 14 New
    +1
    decides to join the White Movement and take part in the fratricidal war This is what spoiled the generally not bad biography of the baron.
    1. AntonR7
      AntonR7 30 November 2013 23: 42 New
      +3
      But it was necessary like an ostrich head in the sand ?! The Bolsheviks tried to spoil his reputation, and not his participation in the citizenship. the war.
      1. Kir
        Kir 1 December 2013 13: 05 New
        -1
        Although I’m not a supporter of all anti-state riots, I don’t particularly like the first Bolsheviks, the fact that the Bolsheviks still have a reason for dislike since 1905, maybe you don’t know, or maybe you’re silent, the Cossacks suppression of the Moscow uprising was led by Baron Von Wrangel, who personally took the leadership of the Cossacks to suppress, since the Cossacks refused to use weapons to suppress fellow citizens.
        By the way, from 1905, Wrangel’s career is growing, so the author missed.
        With regards to the civilian, I must say thanks to our friends who sponsored both of them, as well as to the holy martyr, the mediocre Nikolai and his entourage, so .....
        1. Aleksandr2
          Aleksandr2 17 December 2013 09: 42 New
          0
          So what?
  2. DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 30 November 2013 09: 54 New
    +7
    I like Vrungel’s captan more !!!! The Bolsheviks destroyed the white reptile and did it right. Belyaki called on the enemies of Russia to help defeat the Russian people. The British, the Germans. Americans, Japanese. many helped White Guard evil spirits. And after the defeat, those who were not destroyed. fled to the enemies of Russia. So what did they fight for? For Russia? No. they fought for their loot. and when they pinned it over a hillock. I remember the rich Jews in ancient times thought the same. They thought and abandoned their country, taking money with them, why fight? Money is good everywhere. And then they whined that we had no homeland.
    1. fzr1000
      fzr1000 30 November 2013 11: 52 New
      +4
      Is it all for the loot? Why then did they not emigrate in exile? Never chop off the shoulder. God forbid you all to be in their place in the Civil War.
      And the Bolsheviks, the main ones, were mostly from the Jews you mentioned.
      1. smile
        smile 30 November 2013 15: 53 New
        +6
        fzr1000
        DZ_98_B of course spoke harshly. But in essence, he is absolutely XNUMX% right - both those who emigrated in exile and those who have been impoverished actually played into the hands of precisely those forces that were going to enslave, dismember and destroy Russia.
        The author is well done. In order not to spoil the beautiful portrait of comrade Wrangel, he interrupted his biography in the most interesting place - for example, nothing was said that this ... a knight from the Crimea was wondering if he should move the remnants of the troops to the Poles to help - imagine helping the Poles enslave Russia .. Such, Abanamat, patriots, it is necessary to put on a stake ... on dry ...

        It was precisely at that time that the white officers ran as volunteers in the Red Army - even those who were not very positive towards the Bolsheviks — save Russia, and this ... bitter patriot hit in the back ... the Poles came to Kiev precisely because of him. They wounded us near Warsaw precisely because of him - we didn’t have the strength to fight them and with gangs all over the country ...

        If you say that the actions of Wrangel, who was on a leash near the Entente countries, were in no way connected with the actions of Poland, which was on a different leash, the main command staff of the army of which were French, I will laugh for a long time at your infantility ...

        Yes, not all settled well in exile ... and if they won, it would not be good for all of us ... what are you choosing?

        And finally, how did the author go about it - he said that the bloody commissars did not shoot this ... patriot because of the dedication of his wife (of course, the woman is clearly extraordinary) ... So what difference does it make to them, bloody? But no, they didn’t slap a friend ... it means they aren’t so bloody, right?
        But they didn’t slap in vain, of course, it is clear that the Entente would have found a replacement for it and found a different commander .... but if he were less talented, less Russian blood could have been shed ... alas, the commissars were too kind ...
      2. revnagan
        revnagan 1 December 2013 22: 46 New
        +1
        Quote: fzr1000
        Why then did they not emigrate in exile?

        They didn’t pay back the money invested in them. Nothing personal, just business ...
    2. klim44
      klim44 30 November 2013 18: 08 New
      +2
      Forgive me heartily, but you. How can you talk such nonsense about people who loved their Russia, which is different from your Russia. They HEROES past a terrible war, did not run to the Volga, fought without commissars. And they did not lose that war. And a small part of them worked with the Germans in the Second World War, and General Vlasov wasn’t from the White Army !!!
      1. smile
        smile 30 November 2013 21: 13 New
        +2
        klim44
        Do you think the Poles, whom Wrangel actually helped (and his owners and the Poles were alone), brought us a lot of good things?
        They occupied vast territories, carried out forced polonization, destroyed languages, the formation of Vera ... twenty years of the Polish occupation - executions and burnt villages in the occupied part of our country .... hero, yes?
        Of course, he is an extraordinary person, but he is no better than Vlasov - he is worse, because he is more talented.
        Yes, he loved Russia, but in fact he helped the enemies of Russia and fought in their interests. And if he and his ilk won, Russia would simply not exist. or if she was within the principality of Moscow .... you can continue to grieve over the heroes who fought against our country and their people.
        1. AntonR7
          AntonR7 30 November 2013 23: 45 New
          0
          He did not help the Poles, but fought for a single and indivisible Russia, you are just darkness. Read memoirs, compare facts. Among the white officers who dedicated their lives to serving the motherland, and Jews who were the Bolsheviks, revolutionaries sought to destroy the oppressed government.
          1. smile
            smile 1 December 2013 06: 37 New
            +1
            AntonR7
            Yeah. didn't help ...
            1. They assisted in the formation of his troops, fully armed, dressed and ensured his actions during the entire period of the fight with Russia namely the Entente. Do you think it was a gift?
            2. Formed, uniforms, provided everyone up to the food of the Poles who? That's right, Entente countries. even the command staff is entirely French ... Peten. there, by the way, lit up ...
            In total, two Entente-controlled forces operate surprisingly synchronously ...
            so mmmm. is it really not clear to you?

            you ... miserable. it would be worth asking who the white officers really were for ...- exactly half of the General Staff of the Republic of Ingushetia are for the Reds, almost half of the officer corps of the Republic of Ingushetia are for the Reds — but against- less .... do not humiliate the Russian officers, they clearly understood who is trying to save the country (even despite Trotsky’s and his ilk, among the white knights there were no fewer such cannibals) and who are trying to tear to please other countries .... the pepper is clear, it wasn’t customary to talk about it earlier .... Well, it’s inconvenient that the backbone of the Red Army was precisely the officers of the Republic of Ingushetia ... but no one hid the tsir ... and the current perestroika lied -digits are carefully silent about .....
            but numbers are numbers. And slobbering reasonings like yours don't cost anything.
            Yes, the officers of the Republic of Ingushetia, who transferred to the Red Army, devoted their lives to serving the Motherland ... and those who tried to tear pieces from their homeland, helping the enemies of the Motherland - like Yudenich, Bulak-Bulakhovich, Ungern, Wrangel and the same Kolchak laid down their lives giving everything forces to destroy our country to please their masters ...
            I admit that not all of them understood this ... but this is a fact that cannot be avoided ... and I don’t care what the Wrangel thought - objectively, he helped the Poles to enslave my Motherland, my compatriots, point! if he did not have enough brains to realize this, which I strongly doubt, is his problem. Rather, the problem of the Russian people, to whom he blew .....
            1. AntonR7
              AntonR7 1 December 2013 12: 56 New
              -1
              Eh, you say the same darkness, as a rule, the help from the Allies was ridiculous and the help was provided since the Whites remained in solidarity with the Allies in the struggle against Germany. And as for the unfortunate one, it’s at your address, I’ve been reading history and memoirs, including about the Civil War, since I was 7 years old, and I have a clear idea of ​​the persons participating in this conflict. It is clear that the officers of tsarist Russia were among all sides, but it’s another matter that those who are red and have forgotten the oath and among whites are those who could resist the revolutionary fervor. The whites didn’t help snatch pieces, and I repeat, they fought for one and indivisible, but your Bolsheviks, not wanting to convene a constituent assembly, seized power, usurped by the way on German and English money. All the scum not Russian took power, devoting life to the devastation of Russia, and the whites tried to maintain excellent traditions and that the constituent assembly itself decided the form of government.
              1. cumastra1
                cumastra1 1 December 2013 15: 38 New
                0
                It was the Bolsheviks who dismembered Russia. Remember - the RSFSR and Ukraine and so on and so forth was formed. Separated Poland, Baltic States, Finland. What did Lenin say? - Something like the state does not become poorer, we still have a lot of Kemsky volosts. And only then the USSR was formed. And how much blood was shed for it? oh do not tell if the Bolsheviks wanted peace. (not to mention equality and fraternity) They wanted money. Gold, and more.
              2. cumastra1
                cumastra1 1 December 2013 15: 38 New
                +1
                It was the Bolsheviks who dismembered Russia. Remember - the RSFSR and Ukraine and so on and so forth was formed. Separated Poland, Baltic States, Finland. What did Lenin say? - Something like the state does not become poorer, we still have a lot of Kemsky volosts. And only then the USSR was formed. And how much blood was shed for it? oh do not tell if the Bolsheviks wanted peace. (not to mention equality and fraternity) They wanted money. Gold, and more.
                1. Kir
                  Kir 1 December 2013 15: 57 New
                  0
                  Well, yes, the first ones, but whose money was invested in this project? And it may also be worth reminding all sorts of London and so on where the parents were going, and, let’s say, before the Marxists, the same from "ours" had a lot of trash-hercin, for example, so .... By the way, the main thing is that money is often ours and there were, look at how much gold the tsarist government paid, and how much they received in fact, so more than that, we still have to them! you understand fraternal help and care.
                  And can the list of Our Persons killed by Western orders be given in chronological order, as well as bring facts of interference and sabotage in relation to RUSSIA, or is it not worth it? and then de some Bolsheviks were too distant. Or let's be objective or .....
                2. smile
                  smile 1 December 2013 17: 14 New
                  +2
                  cumastra1
                  The dismemberment of Russia and the separation of territories from it was preceded by the capture of these territories by the Germans. The physical destruction of all supporters of the abandonment of these territories as part of the country and the Reds. Destroyed mainly by Germans, whites and local nationalist formations.
                  Creation initially with the help of the Germans, then, when they were caught, the Entente of the armed forces.
                  The invasion and attempts to invade these units to us. For example, the army of self-proclaimed Finland exceeded 100 thousand bayonets. Three republics had slightly smaller armies with artillery.

                  Under the arms of the Bolsheviks in February 18, there were a little more than a hundred thousand bayonets and about 10 thousand sabers.
                  Who was fighting the separatists? And then there are whites in the back beat. With the Poles, a sluggish war, which soon escalated into their full-scale invasion, supported by Wrangel, who struck in the back ....
                  Think, did the Bolsheviks have a choice - not to recognize these territories torn away with the help of whites from Russia?
              3. smile
                smile 1 December 2013 17: 04 New
                0
                AntonR7
                Yeah ... darkness ... :))
                1. The Wrangel’s army was fully equipped, equipped and armed with the Entente ... basically, only cannon fodder, everything else — rifles, motor vehicles, cartridges, machine guns, tanks, planes and everything else — were set by the Boss. It was the Master who chose the time of the strike - since Wrangel was completely dependent on the Entente.
                2. Of course, they didn’t help enough — the goal was not to overthrow the Bolsheviks — the goal was to bleed and weaken Russia. And the goals and conspiracy arose in their company before 1MB. And the white knights who did their best to trade the sovereignty of their homeland greatly contributed to the implementation of the plans. For example, the white knights have signed an agreement with Britain to transfer Britain as a colony of the whole of Turkestan (to quote?), And robbery is also an important goal. The Entente fulfilled this point one hundred percent ... with the help of white knights (take an interest in what they did with Murmansk and Vladivostok) who actually acted in the interests of those who supplied them.
                So, for whom the white fought ..
                let's go - Balak Bulakhovich - helped to destroy those Baltic states that wanted to remain part of the country. He acted along with the Balts and Germans against the Russians. Bottom line - we were kicked out of the Baltic states and torn away our territories.
                Yudenich - helped to tear Finland and Estonia from Russia. Well done is now not our land, in many respects thanks to him and people like him.
                Our beloved Wrangel, acting in synchrony with the Poles, helped them seize our land ... helped - thanks to him and people like us who have now appeared zapadentsy ... by the way, he took away the entire fleet from Crimea ... over one and a half hundred pennants .. . less than two dozen came to Bizert ... do the rest know where to go? Sold! :))) What a talented adnaka, isn't it?

                You can sing praises and wipe away the tears of tenderness for those heterogeneous groups with different goals and aspirations, which are usually called white, who started a civil war. But one cannot be denied - objectively, all these groups and movements have harmed our state if it had not been for them, and Russia would not have lost so many lands.
                I understand that most did not know what was happening, but fact is a fact.

                What wonderful traditions did whites want to preserve? Founding? This talking room? Is she the Russian tradition? Yes, and beautiful? Yeah, when Kolchak broke up the Omsk government with bayonets, he clearly kept traditions ... and he wanted to give all power to the founding ... oh, I didn’t have time ... pichalka ... All the leaders of different white movements were brutal authoritarian leaders who did not want to share power with whom ... One Denikin, realized what cube turned into a white movement, what it would bring to Russia, spat and left.
                By the way, what is the expression "form of government"? Is this hto? :)))
                In general, the naivete of the last sentence of your comment is astounding ... I believe that you have been reading a historical book since you were seven ... One ... ABC book ... because the naivety of your statements reveals ... as you put it, complete darkness in that place where knowledge should have been.
                1. AntonR7
                  AntonR7 4 December 2013 00: 18 New
                  0
                  In addition to sprinkling with saliva and insults, nothing is visible from you, you blindly believe what Soviet propaganda said and do not know how to separate the grain from the chaff. You take it out as they say ... you don’t see who their white biography is from the context and how they came to the anti-Bolshevik movement, but how the Bolsheviks came.
                2. Aleksandr2
                  Aleksandr2 17 December 2013 09: 56 New
                  0
                  But how did Lenin get the money?
            2. Aleksandr2
              Aleksandr2 17 December 2013 09: 51 New
              0
              He didn’t start it all, did they forget it?
          2. revnagan
            revnagan 1 December 2013 23: 03 New
            0
            Quote: AntonR7
            and the Jews of the Bolsheviks were revolutionaries seeking to destroy the power that oppressed them.

            Oh, yes, yes, yes, the Israel Defense Forces have directly defeated the White Knights ... And how do you say the words of intervention-general Knox, who cabled to London: “If 150 million Russians do not want white, but want red, then aimlessly help the white. .. ". And you are here about some Jewish revolutionaries ... By God, it’s stupid and funny.
            1. AntonR7
              AntonR7 2 December 2013 16: 07 New
              0
              And you pay attention to the belonging of the revolutionaries, of course, the allies helped the whites for their own purposes, but the whites used them for their own, here the main thing is who the whites and the red came from, where they dedicated their lives and what goals they set.
              1. Kir
                Kir 3 December 2013 07: 27 New
                +1
                Forgive me of course, but I think here on the site there are no memory and absolutely illiterate No! And therefore Do not lie, the same foggy albion always warmed up in different ways, if only they served their interests, especially when it came to harming RUSSIA, when it was needed there and the Marxists, Socialist Republics, anarchists and others were laid back, so .... ..
                And still it is not necessary to substitute goals with sloganism, the same bulk is also very expensive, but from what back-breaking works did you get hold of your office ?, and let's say that it’s not of national origin.
                In simple terms, stop breathing in goods with a soul, I’m not dead, and those who believed in the idea, but those who are hiding behind high materials, strive to have their own small or large gesheft.
            2. AntonR7
              AntonR7 4 December 2013 00: 23 New
              -1
              This does not become ridiculous when you see who eventually came to power and how they began to spread rot in the Orthodox culture in which Lenin saw the main enemy, because he said that if the priests were not destroyed, they would still return the king. And it’s how Russian heroes (Yevgeny Rodionov) are now forgotten, but R. Kadyrov is a hero of Russia. You see, this is all a consequence of the fact that everything Russian was disgusting to the Bolshevik leaders, they fulfilled what Churchill wished to say, that Russia should be divided according to the federal principle with the autonomy of the national suburbs, such Russia would be less dangerous than a strong monarchist Russia. You read not only the propaganda of the Communists, foreigners give themselves away and judge by the biography and actions of people.
        2. Aleksandr2
          Aleksandr2 17 December 2013 09: 48 New
          0
          But did the Bolsheviks think about people, huh? And power for them is so between things.
      2. revnagan
        revnagan 1 December 2013 22: 55 New
        +2
        Quote: klim44
        How can you talk such nonsense about people who loved their Russia, which is different from your Russia.

        Ah, yes, yes, yes ... "... and Schubert’s waltzes,
        and the taste of French rolls ... "
        what a wonderful Russia they had. But the rest of the population? Who plowed for them for 12-14 hours a day? Who lived in shacks and barracks? Who tried meat, only after joining the army? With child mortality more than in any other country in Europe? At whose expense did Russia live so beautifully? And was this state of affairs fair and acceptable? And for whom?
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 2 December 2013 00: 12 New
          -2
          Quote: revnagan
          Ah, yes, yes, yes ... "... and Schubert’s waltzes,
          and the taste of French rolls ... "
          what a wonderful Russia they had. But the rest of the population? Who plowed for them for 12-14 hours a day? Who lived in shacks and barracks? Who tried meat, only after joining the army? With child mortality more than in any other country in Europe? At whose expense did Russia live so beautifully? And was this state of affairs fair and acceptable? And for whom?

          But now, is it different?
          1. revnagan
            revnagan 2 December 2013 14: 12 New
            -2
            Quote: lelikas
            But now, is it different?

            Now it has become so again. And again there will be people who are ready to eliminate this injustice. And then you do not need to moan that, they say, well, you can’t be so cruel to the oligarchs and their loved ones. They also say they love their own Russia. But at whose expense this love? And the words of A.V. Suvorov are recalled: "The unfinished forest grows again." And the Mikhalkov nobles and the like again appear. More should not happen again.
    3. Aleksandr2
      Aleksandr2 17 December 2013 09: 43 New
      0
      And these Bolsheviks have had you for more than 70 years.
  3. Reyngard
    Reyngard 30 November 2013 13: 52 New
    -12
    Correctly! Your Bolsheviks and Stalinists are more shameful than monarchists
    1. smile
      smile 30 November 2013 15: 36 New
      0
      Reyngard
      Are you actually speaking to anyone, huh? And then shit here, and it is not known whose address ... please. be careful.
    2. RUSS
      RUSS 1 December 2013 14: 26 New
      -1
      Absolutely right.
    3. Kir
      Kir 1 December 2013 16: 39 New
      -1
      Have you tried to divide? huh, otherwise it’s all in one heap of obscurantists and Saints, though I don’t know your pedigree, maybe what personal insult? I have so much resentment and hostility only to the first, but then they were cleaned up well, it’s a pity not all of them, and although my grandfather was shot in 1937, and at 33 he did the same, but I have no resentment against Stalin Himself, but Respect Yes !!!, because I really was a Leader and Leader.
      And the monarchists, well, excuse me here, are to blame for many things, and even you are not embarrassed that such a prominent ideologist as V.V. Shulgin died in his advanced years somewhere in 90 years in the USSR, but was not shot? Maybe it’s worth asking who they cleaned up and for what ?, otherwise it’s a direct affliction either for the “spikelet” or for politics.
  4. sprut
    sprut 30 November 2013 15: 41 New
    +1
    In October 1914, the American National Geographic magazine devoted its issue to one main topic - Russia. The collection of articles was placed under the general title: "Young Russia - The Land of Unlimited Possibilities" ("Young Russia - a country of unlimited possibilities").
    The magazine, like many then, including French President Clemenceau, predicted that by the middle of the 2000th century Russia would take first place in the world in its economic development. The same article noted that Russia had the fastest population growth in the world, and it was predicted that the population of the Russian Empire by 600 would reach 400 million people. Mendeleev predicted roughly the same thing at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, calculating that by the middle of his population of Russia would reach XNUMX million people.
    The famous French economist Edmond Teri commissioned two French ministers to survey the Russian economy. Noting the astounding success in all areas, Teri concluded: “If the affairs of European nations will go from 1912 to 1950 as they did from 1900 to 1912, by the middle of this century Russia will dominate Europe both politically and economically and financially. ”
    In his book Economic Transformation of Russia, he summarized the amazing successes of Russia in all areas: “There is no need to add that no people in Europe can boast of similar results.”
    And what a shame to realize that we have not achieved this, and all because of some kind of change of power! Maybe the first one would not fly into space in Gagarin in 61, but let’s say Kuznetsov in 54 ... But Gagarin would be the first on the Moon ... :-)) But history has no subjunctive mood ...
    1. aleshka
      aleshka 30 November 2013 20: 45 New
      +6
      That's to prevent this from happening (the dominance of Russia in Europe) and both World Wars were unleashed !!! And I must admit, the British achieved what they wanted! How many people are in Russia now do not need to remind all of you !!!
    2. poquello
      poquello 1 December 2013 00: 56 New
      +4
      Quote: sprut
      ....
      And what a shame to realize that we have not achieved this, and all because of some kind of change of power! Maybe the first one would not fly into space in Gagarin in 61, but let’s say Kuznetsov in 54 ... But Gagarin would be the first on the Moon ... :-)) But history has no subjunctive mood ...

      I agree with you, IMHO, the probability of Russia's success without this terrible bloody time is great, and not the fact that Wrangel, if successful, limited himself to the Moscow principality, and did not drive out the Poles and the rest, but neither of this happened. Jews, not Jews, they ruled the Bolsheviks, but the Great USSR had a place to be, so to whom for which thanks there to speak it is a question of degree.
  5. Ddhal
    Ddhal 30 November 2013 17: 01 New
    +1
    It makes no sense to label the warring parties in that war.
    Among people there are always heroes and beneficiaries.

    I am more pleased that we have survived to the time when our story is adequately covered with no exaggeration and leveling ..
    1. max73
      max73 30 November 2013 17: 34 New
      +2
      Labels are hung up - be healthy. Moreover, with complete ignorance of history. More than sure, most cap-takers and a couple of books on the history of the first world and civil did not read .... because, why?))
  6. bagpipe
    bagpipe 30 November 2013 17: 20 New
    -2
    good article. I read with interest the memoirs of P.N. Wrangel - a very worthy person and a great patriot of his homeland! I am sorry for those people who think that the whole history of Great Russia is a scoop. Shevchenko wrote about such - "Glorious great-grandchildren great-grandchildren trash"
    1. Kir
      Kir 1 December 2013 16: 14 New
      +1
      Just don’t need to give such a trash as Shevchenko as an example, it’s a pity for me that they only executed him and Kastomarov and Mordovtsev, that’s always We were different in that, more precisely, not We, but the Russian government, were sorry, but we received in full revenge from the creatures ungrateful (these things (creatures) to the peoples of which they supposedly represented. Does not apply, but as a whole is the definition of all guardians and progressives).
      And such as Wrangel, Kolchak, Yudenich, Denikin and others are pain and sorrow that these worthy perished for the interests of others, helping them in the collapse of their Fatherland! But when they were given such an opportunity, those of them who were still alive proved that they were the worthy sons of the Fatherland by denying representatives of the Reich, but the red, skin, and boards proved that they were scum, but for some reason the monument in Moscow on the Falcon mentioning these It’s worth, and a monument was erected in the Kuban to Krasnov, but the same Kolchak is still seemingly not there, although he is more than worthy, at least as an explorer of the Arctic !!!
  7. saag
    saag 30 November 2013 17: 32 New
    0
    Something recently began to raise them into the light, first Kolchak, Wrangel, Kornilov, that look and reach General Krasnov, what would it be?
    1. poquello
      poquello 1 December 2013 01: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: saag
      Something recently began to raise them into the light, first Kolchak, Wrangel, Kornilov, that look and reach General Krasnov, what would it be?

      Why not. I am pleased to read articles about that part of our history that was covered in one-sided fashion in the USSR, and thank you all for the diverse comments.
    2. Kir
      Kir 1 December 2013 18: 48 New
      -1
      And why reach him, a monument was erected in the Kuban, a three-volume memoir came out, went out. And with regards to what is all this, so that some people are looking for different ways to obtain compensation for loss and so on ..... so the participants in the white movement are just a screen, But the question is what was the situation with the property in Russia Empire at the time of 1917, and it’s not yet a fact that the so-called noble nests and promissory notes, etc., were no longer in the hands of a certain community, and the paths were different, like buying up debts and having relatives with the noble family, the same not for love but for mercantile interests most often, so dig into direction of financially proprietary interests, it is unlikely that you will miss!
    3. lelikas
      lelikas 2 December 2013 00: 16 New
      0
      Quote: saag
      Something recently began to raise them into the light, first Kolchak, Wrangel, Kornilov, that look and reach General Krasnov, what would it be?

      This is called a story.
  8. DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 30 November 2013 17: 52 New
    +3
    Please write the following article about the Japanese. About how they defending tsarism captured the Far East !!!! About how the Japanese, defending the nobility destroyed the Russian people !!! About how the Japanese burned SERGEY LAZO to the glory of the Russian state !!
    1. Wizard
      Wizard 13 December 2013 12: 40 New
      +2
      Or maybe we’ll remember about the Brest Peace then when did the Bolsheviks give half of Ukraine to the Germans?
  9. bagpipe
    bagpipe 30 November 2013 18: 00 New
    -14
    Quote: DZ_98_B
    to the glory of the Russian state, SERGEY LAZO was burned !!

    scoop - it's scary!
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 30 November 2013 20: 11 New
      +9
      bagpipe "scoop - it's scary!"
      Found what is afraid.
      It is terrible when your fellow countrymen Volyn Khatyn burned, women and children were killed. It is terrible when our soldiers in Polish villages found wells up to the top full of Polish children killed and killed. The handiwork of your Volynians banderlogov. This is scary.
      Do you speak a scoop? Yes, your zapadenschine before him .... However, Volyn people have someone to equal. In general, you caved in to Volyn before all Austrians, Poles, Hungarians, etc. All my life I’ve been wandering around in Canada, then somewhere else. When they say one Ukrainian is a partisan detachment, two Ukrainians is a partisan detachment with a traitor. So this is to Volynians. About the east, center, south of Ukraine I will not say this. Do not teach us nobility. Not such claps as you teach us.
      By the way, people like you are not minus because - zapadlo.
      1. aleshka
        aleshka 30 November 2013 20: 52 New
        +2
        and in Volhynia anyone lives, but not Ukrainians! There they say something so that not even all Kievans can understand them!
      2. bagpipe
        bagpipe 30 November 2013 23: 17 New
        -5
        You are raving. smile
        1. Kir
          Kir 1 December 2013 16: 47 New
          +1
          Volynyak, Well, yes, probably the same thing is raving, forgive me for the expression yourself (not mine but said by the native of the Eastern part of your Motherland) when they say that it’s easier for the Russian to understand Polish than the language that the population of Ukraine itself can’t understand everything, Do not hold everyone for at least the illiterate!
    2. aleshka
      aleshka 30 November 2013 20: 46 New
      +3
      Bandera is scary!
    3. vladkavkaz
      vladkavkaz 30 November 2013 21: 20 New
      +2
      bagpipe
      Scoop, this is a tool, an object for removing garbage from the hut, therefore, carrying bent and garbage in this article-bagpipes, there is an informmosor to be removed.
      And yet. You, detailed to you, remember the part of JUDAH, but that one, even if his conscience was hanged himself, and you have a stool, a rope and soap, for free, it has already been so, it will be so again.
    4. Uhe
      Uhe 1 December 2013 03: 11 New
      0
      What, you don’t clean at home at all - are you afraid of the scoop? ;)
  10. bagpipe
    bagpipe 30 November 2013 19: 29 New
    -8
    Quote: volynyaka
    good article. I read with interest the memoirs of P.N. Wrangel - a very worthy person and a great patriot of his homeland! I am sorry for those people who think that the whole history of Great Russia is a scoop. Shevchenko wrote about such - "Glorious great-grandchildren great-grandchildren trash"

    I would like to look at the people I mined. Who are you, whose children, which fathers?
    1. Pashhenko Nikolay
      Pashhenko Nikolay 30 November 2013 19: 54 New
      0
      Well, I minus what? I’m the great-great-grandson of the workers and peasants of those times, and even wealthy peasants. The very ones against whom your baron fought. What's next?
      1. AntonR7
        AntonR7 2 December 2013 16: 11 New
        +1
        The Baron did not fight against workers and peasants, but I repeat for those especially gifted for a single and indivisible Russia, since many of the whites have dedicated their lives to serving the army and Russia.
    2. vladkavkaz
      vladkavkaz 30 November 2013 21: 21 New
      +1
      Our Fathers and Grandfathers, namely the glorious ancestors, you, the growth of nits and traitors.
    3. smile
      smile 30 November 2013 21: 22 New
      +3
      bagpipe
      You better look at those jackals who have brought up slavish worship in the West and the conditioned reflex - an evil squeal at the Soviet people, and the Soviet system (I don’t know whose merit it is, your parents hardly taught you this ... if they are not Bandera ), who saved part of the Russian people - Ukrainians from Polish enslavement. Thanks to which such people - Ukrainians - did not disappear.
      1. bagpipe
        bagpipe 30 November 2013 23: 09 New
        -6
        smile - why say that? I don’t know how old you are, if mine (42 years old), then you probably served in the SA. And what, were the Ukrainians there exactly like that?
        Quote: smile
        you have brought up slavish worship in the West and a conditioned reflex - an evil squeal against Soviet people, and the Soviet system
        Hatred of Ukraine - it looks like you are becoming part of state policy. Where have you seen Ukrainians splashing anger at Russian brothers as much as the dirt towards Ukraine I read on this forum? what's in the head of these people, and who raised them? And if I hate the scoop with his mentality and everything connected with this, then I mean - a traitor))) and a fan of the West?
        if honestly, before coming to this forum I never thought that somewhere else there are "Soviet citizens."
        friends from Russia are some kind of advanced, I thought in the Russian Federation all of these ... and here "Sergey Lazo" ... it's some kind of e .... new shame and not human thinking
        1. smile
          smile 1 December 2013 05: 59 New
          +3
          bagpipe
          I am 71 years old.
          I don’t understand why you’re trying to spread my attitude towards you personally to all Ukrainians. Rather, it’s clear to me — this is your defensive reaction ... :)))

          I have a grandfather, a Ukrainian ... Dmitrenko Mikhail Romanovich .... he treated Bandera worse than the Nazis ... for him, Bandera was a curse worse than obscene ... and both of his brothers are the same. My relatives stayed in Fastov and Lubny. Grandfather’s younger brother, Grandfather Petya, who, as a self-defense unit, shot only one bandarlog from a gang of svidromity, who killed and raped the snotty 18-year-old teacher in their village, is still alive ...... God forbid you fall into his calloused hands. .... stranglehold! And he won’t count you as a Ukrainian. Including for your otrebenki about the "scoops" ....
          In general, if I called your teachers jackals, they would .... call you worse ... here they are, real Ukrainians. And you polonized or fascist slag ... congratulations ... and do not dare to hide behind the Ukrainians, you are not Ukrainian.

          And sprinkling anger at Russian bandarlogs I saw in person ... starting from the year 91 in Kiev right on Khreshchatyk ....
          By the way, if you don’t even realize that it’s precisely the West that has washed your brains ... mmmm .... when will you think with your head? Vyzh. it seems not durrrrak?
          Request. Watch the docfilm Orange Children of the Third Reich. I guarantee you will be. although unpleasant, but again .... honestly. people like you surprise me ..... well, besides disgust ...

          And don’t trynd about our site, your bandarlogovskie ones are such that you can’t call them anything but a bunch of feces ... and there is no information there ... at all ... fiction for downs .... and you can't help it to know ... so that it’s not worth blowing a pity; your lies are too visible ...
    4. revnagan
      revnagan 1 December 2013 23: 21 New
      +1
      Quote: volynyaka
      I would like to look at the people I mined. Who are you, whose children, which fathers?

      I minus the son and grandson of the Communists, who were fighting with your patrons near Stalingrad, Moscow, Kursk, taking Vienna and Budapest, rebuilding my country after the Great Victory and giving millions of profits from well-coordinated production to their country. I remember everything, and I tell the truth to my son. And as for the minuses ... Maybe you read at Pikul, as in a Paris captured by the Germans, a French worker, meeting Bismarck, said: “I can’t shoot, I can spit?” Here is the same situation. And I am patient. I have adopted your tactics. I’ll sit quietly, not standing out, take on a pencil like you and wait in the wings ...
      1. lelikas
        lelikas 2 December 2013 00: 20 New
        0
        Quote: revnagan
        “I can’t shoot, I can spit?” The situation is the same. And I’m patient. I have adopted your tactics. I’ll sit quietly, not standing out, take someone like you and wait in the wings ..

        And then you spit to death? laughing
        1. revnagan
          revnagan 2 December 2013 14: 14 New
          0
          Quote: lelikas
          And then you spit to death?

          I said that I will adopt their tactics ...
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. Sour
    Sour 30 November 2013 21: 25 New
    0
    I read Wrangel's memoirs. They are not much different from the memoirs of many other White Guards. It looks something like this - here they defeated the Reds, there they defeated, here they smashed to smithereens, then they fled, and in the end they plunged onto the ships and sailed abroad. Somehow it turns out.
    Very arrogant, it is noticeable. Self-esteem is overpriced. These usually love toadies. His closest friend, Shatilov, is called by other prominent White Guards a bribe taker and a petty thief.
    Tell me who your friend is ...
    Denikin and some others characterize Wrangel as an intriguer.
    Although many note Wrangel's talent as a cavalry chief, his personal courage.
    1. alexey.sh
      alexey.sh 30 November 2013 22: 45 New
      +1
      I agree with your assessment of Wrangel's memoirs, but memoirs are generally such a thing. Well, if Shatilov was a petty thief, then Wrangel was a major thief. By the way, Shirokorad has a good book about Wrangel.
    2. bagpipe
      bagpipe 1 December 2013 06: 10 New
      -4
      poorly read. inattentively. in his memoirs, the general of Baron P.N.
      1. Kir
        Kir 1 December 2013 16: 25 New
        +1
        Yes, for God's sake, We are the same for Great Russia with the borders of Great Russia in it at the time of the beginning of 1917, so how do you agree to return Ours to Us? So you have to thank the Bolsheviks, or rather the authorities, for the cut down territories and the design bureaus transferred after the war, the same flagship of Antonov’s design bureau will come from Moscow, and also the industry and infrastructure built with the money of the entire Union!
  13. Klim podkova
    Klim podkova 30 November 2013 22: 49 New
    +3
    There are never winners in a civil war. Whose side do not accept - the decision will still be wrong, because you have to kill your fellow countrymen, ravage your power with war, to the delight of your enemies. Civil war is the common misfortune of all Russians, both red and white. In Novocherkassk (?) There is a monument to ALL Cossacks who died in the civil war. One monument at all.
    1. Uhe
      Uhe 1 December 2013 03: 13 New
      -1
      Precisely because supposedly there are no winners in the civil war, White invited invaders to Russia in the form of the Entente;)))
  14. bagpipe
    bagpipe 30 November 2013 22: 54 New
    -8
    Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay
    Well, I minus what? I’m the great-great-grandson of the workers and peasants of those times, and even wealthy peasants. The very ones against whom your baron fought. What's next?

    Nikolay Pashchenko, in general - the baron is yours. But he fought not against the workers and peasants, but defended his homeland from all rabble headed by the Jewish Masonic gang.
    Quote: vladkavkaz
    Our Fathers and Grandfathers, namely the glorious ancestors, you, the growth of nits and traitors.
    not you, outbred, I poke! My ancestors fought in the Crimean, Persian, before the coup, served in the General Staff! and great-grandfather was a companion of Samsonov Alexander Vasilyevich, and died with him in the Mazurian swamps!
    nits are you, soviet heritage! You will never raise this country until the last scoop dies.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 1 December 2013 06: 16 New
      +7
      Glory and memory to your great-grandfather! But why sprinkle poison on the whole past. And what was in the “scoop” is now recalled as, what, well, the present does not offer. And most importantly, you can not insult people for their thoughts and opinions. This applies to all participants in our respected forum. hi
    2. aleshka
      aleshka 1 December 2013 17: 43 New
      +2
      it turns out you’re just a schizoid, it’s not even interesting, the arguments ran out and flooded a chubby schiz
      1. Kir
        Kir 1 December 2013 17: 50 New
        +2
        The main thing is that this representative, from his ancient words, forgets to indicate that the names of the "parody" didn’t end, well, unless the former gentry had changed their Polish ending or adopted the Ukrainian surname. Do not forget about that! in dashing recent years, getting hold of a pedigree was worth just a certain amount, it’s one another, the real representative would not go down so much so as not to offend himself and his family descending to the street language.
  15. bagpipe
    bagpipe 1 December 2013 06: 00 New
    -4
    it's just some kind of ugliness. Russia, where are you going? I have in my frames the documents of my ancestors who fought for Faith, Tsar, Fatherland, and here - a bunch of Savetskys ... this is glum and unbelief ... it should not be. Burn you scoops in hell!
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 1 December 2013 06: 51 New
      +7
      Something you, dear, to bring in was not the case
    2. smile
      smile 1 December 2013 06: 54 New
      0
      bagpipe
      Axis yak you ... properlo .... :))))
      I suppose you are yelling at you on all fours with the owner in the back ... pro-European to you?
      Indeed, ugliness ... was allowed in your upbringing ..... you clearly have a place among the fascists and other feces, well, the Europeans will provide you with their gentle community ... just do not even hold on to your pocket, you will be tenderly torn out, and, by habit, rob ...
      and then they will declare subhuman ... and then I agree with them, how can I relate to the servile idddiet who denies all the best that his people have and aspirates suck all the noodles that they hang on him with contempt?

      You and everyone will despise you. What can you do - this is your slavish nature. A voluntary slave is not worthy of respect. Congratulations. :)))
    3. poquello
      poquello 1 December 2013 12: 14 New
      +3
      Quote: volynyaka
      it's just some kind of ugliness. Russia, where are you going? I have in my frames the documents of my ancestors who fought for Faith, Tsar, Fatherland, and here - a bunch of Savetskys ... this is glum and unbelief ... it should not be. Burn you scoops in hell!

      )) If my grandfather died in the Second World War as a brigade commander, and my wife’s clan from the times of Peter the Great has served and was civilian in red scattered, now should I beat my wife’s face in the morning? Russia does not roll anywhere, Russia lives in the present.
  16. White Guard
    White Guard 1 December 2013 08: 28 New
    0
    Wrangel fought for Russia, and his classmate Shaposhnikov for the Soviet. For the simple, I will give an analogy: Saruman, accepting Gandalf, said that the strength of Mordor is great and it is impossible to defeat him, it is necessary to switch to his side. So Shaposhnikov and others like him crossed, and the true heroes remained faithful to the oath, duty and officer honor.
    1. Klim podkova
      Klim podkova 1 December 2013 10: 42 New
      +5
      Did Chapaev not fight for Russia? He did not buy his crosses of St. George at the bazaar.
      Budyonny is a full St. George Knight (4 cross and 4 St. George medals). They fought for Soviet power not because of fear for their lives. These people were not afraid of death. And with their honor, loyalty to duty, they did not trade.
      1. creak
        creak 1 December 2013 15: 43 New
        +3
        In the name of justice, it should be noted that the same Kolchak for the difference in Russian-Japanese and WWI was awarded the Order of St. George, Golden Saber "For Courage", Order of St. Vladimir and others .. Speech and children are not about the personal courage of the red and white commanders, they definitely were not cowards ... The tragedy is that they all fought for Russia and everyone understood fidelity to duty in their own way, it’s not by chance that they call the civil war fratricidal ... Sholokhov precisely reflected this in his novel "Quiet Don" ...
        1. revnagan
          revnagan 1 December 2013 23: 34 New
          -1
          Quote: ranger
          it is no accident that the civil war is sometimes called fratricidal ...

          Fratricidal is when 50 to 50 converged, threw themselves into a fist and muttuyut each other. And when the minority kills the majority in order to drive the "furious herd" back to the stall and regain those privileges in the country that suits them, and do it again at the expense of "furious boors" ... That ... what kind of "brothers" are these?
        2. AntonR7
          AntonR7 2 December 2013 21: 33 New
          +1
          This is true of the fratricidal war, and already for this I can’t respect the Bolsheviks, since it was Lenin who called for the great war to be transformed into a civil war, which I believe could only be desired by a sick or outright traitor.
      2. AntonR7
        AntonR7 2 December 2013 21: 31 New
        0
        They may not have been afraid of death willingly believe it, but the White Guard is right, he heard such a phrase said by Budenny: "I'd rather be a marshal among the Bolsheviks than a non-commissioned officer with the whites." Those. it is a banal personal benefit. The whites lost because the entire industry and the main population from which the recruits scooped up were from the Reds, and also because the Reds had a clear program and strict leadership, although the White fought for good, alas, without a clear program - who is for the king, who is for the constituent a meeting that will choose a form of government. In general, allsorts. The result is a deplorable final for Russia.
    2. revnagan
      revnagan 1 December 2013 23: 29 New
      0
      Quote: White Guard
      For the simple, I will give an analogy: Saruman, accepting Gandalf, said that the strength of Mordor is great and it is impossible to defeat him, it is necessary to switch to his side.

      Even strength is abstruse ... But on the example of "Kolobok" or "Ryaba Chicken" is impossible? I am very simple, why would I understand ...
  17. saag
    saag 1 December 2013 09: 08 New
    0
    Quote: White Guard
    and the true heroes remained faithful to the oath, duty, and officer honor.

    "... By the way, how did it all end there? - They shot me. - Ay-yai-yay, that's what they need!" movie "Resident's mistake"
  18. vladim.gorbunow
    vladim.gorbunow 1 December 2013 11: 55 New
    +1
    White fought for the "One and Indivisible" and for the return of foreign debts to the last penny, centime and cent. The Reds are for the world revolution and against the recognition of duty. 8 tons of gold is a lot. However, Wrangel was already satisfied with the South of Russia, for which it was possible to become an ally of Poland in the Russian-Polish war.
  19. vladim.gorbunow
    vladim.gorbunow 1 December 2013 11: 55 New
    -2
    White fought for the "One and Indivisible" and for the return of foreign debts to the last penny, centime and cent. The Reds are for the world revolution and against the recognition of duty. 8 tons of gold is a lot. However, Wrangel was already satisfied with the South of Russia, for which it was possible to become an ally of Poland in the Russian-Polish war.
  20. Kir
    Kir 1 December 2013 17: 13 New
    +2
    So for every Huydan, the Secret Unions have a history almost from the moment of the occupation of China by the Manchus, if not earlier, so ....., then what are we missing from the events of 1905?
    And even the author himself gave the Wrangel family so well that there is nowhere better
    ".... to preserve their land holdings ...."
    that is, patriotism of the highest standard!
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  23. Director
    Director 1 December 2013 18: 24 New
    +1
    "Baron Wrangel has everything English!" - this phrase from the movie Wedding in Robin I remember from childhood.
    1. Sour
      Sour 1 December 2013 19: 52 New
      +1
      Not certainly in that way.
      Mostly it was French - tanks, armored cars, airplanes. And even rifles, machine guns and revolvers. In the Wrangel army, Lebel rifles (similar in appearance to Mosin’s three-rulers), Shosh machine guns and Nagan revolvers (Belgian assemblies) were popular.
      But England then already scored on its allies, before the French realized that their cause was futile.
      1. Kir
        Kir 1 December 2013 20: 02 New
        0
        Did you understand earlier, or pulled into a financial scam ?, and she began to look for ways to establish commerce with Soviet Russia.
  24. The comment was deleted.
    1. smile
      smile 2 December 2013 00: 10 New
      0
      Sour
      I generally like your comments, but here you surpassed yourself. Thank!
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. Sour
    Sour 1 December 2013 20: 52 New
    +3
    CONTINUED
    Kutepov "Kutepov - an excellent military sergeant-sergeant-servant - is suitable for a post to the commander of a battalion - always about his chief of staff, in the military sense, it costs nothing." (gen. Slaschev)
    "Kutepov is a brave soldier. The character is firm, tough. He can clean up order and discipline a unit without stopping at any measures. As a big boss, he’s certainly not very fit: he’s lost and cannot manage units in battle. Almost always, where he ordered, he failed. . " (Gen. Milkovsky)
    "Kutepov - sergeant major, limited man." (Regiment. Mezernitsky)
    "General Kutepov is very ambitious; good sergeant major; military mediocrity; boor; personally brave." (regiment. Gilbich)
    "Corps commander Kutepov. An excellent combat officer and a nasty organizer. Capable of no more than a battalion commander. Ambitious, rude, of little intelligence, very strong will, big intrigue, like a military commander, always failed." (captain Voinakhovsky)
    Barbovich
    "Barbovich - as far as I know, an honest person, there is little education." (Gen. Slaschev)
    "Barbovich - having started the cavalry. Old troop combat cavalryman. Reasonable, energetic, military commander. He enjoys the trust and sympathy of his subordinates." (Gen. Milkovsky)
    "Barbovich - considered a good cavalry chief, certainly honest." (regiment Mezernitsky)
    "General Barbovich - I know little; with character and, apparently, was a good commander of a horse regiment; in senior positions I do not know." (regiment. Gilbich)
    "Nachdiv Barbovich. Brave, honest, managerial, loved by subordinates, a good boss." (captain Voinakhovsky)
    "Vitkovsky, Skoblin, Turkul and Manstein “Young chiefs, good partisans, but completely unprepared for the position of larger military commanders, which is now recognized even by their military comrades.” (Gen. Milkovsky)
    "Manstein, Turkul, Skoblin - brave officers, careerists." (regiment Mezernitsky)
    "Vitkovsky (holds various positions and serves as an assistant to Kutepov) - not dangerous, very stupid." (gen. Slaschev)
    "Witkowski is a brave officer and schemer, stupid." (regiment. Mezernitsky)
    "General Witkowski is stupid and mediocrity in military affairs." (regiment. Gilbich)
    "Having started with Witkowski. Limited, ambitious. As a combat chief, he is weak. He is not interested in military affairs. He is a good organizer and boss." (captain Voinakhovsky)
    Skoblin "A young and capable officer. Without a military education. A good regiment commander, but no higher." (captain Voinakhovsky)
    Turkul "Excellent combat chief. Brave. Rude, harsh and masterful." (captain Voinakhovsky)
    Manstein "Brave, sensible. Military education is weak. Responsible. Raised and advanced in the Volunteer Army" (Captain Voinakhovsky)
    Cossack generals
    "Settle - a deeply honest, decent man, a wonderful boss and an infinitely brave officer." (regiment. Mezernitsky)
    "General Ulagai is certainly honest; he has heard excellent reviews militarily." (regiment. Gilbich)
    "Bogaevsky is a clever, indecisive, magnificent cabinet worker." (gen. Slaschev)
    "Bogaevsky is the Don Ataman. He is very popular among all Cossacks and enjoys their trust. Smart, cautious, big politician. Indecisive." (Gen. Milkovsky)
    "Skin - his name, as a person without any moral principles, is well known to everyone." (Gen. Milkovsky)
    "Skin - a thief, a robber, a coward." (regiment. Mezernitsky)
  27. motorized rifle
    motorized rifle 2 December 2013 01: 13 New
    +1
    Regarding the article. Very sensibly composed, i.e. the career is described, all the positive aspects of the origin and the positive description is completed in time, in order to fix the positive image. If the author continued further, then he would definitely have to analyze the actions of the baron during the civil war, and then either write the truth or lie. So usually they lie to their wives, i.e. you have to tell the truth, but not all, "- were with friends in the sauna, drank vodka" is part of the truth, you can tell your wife, and the fact that you ordered the girls from the brothel is also true, but you can’t say it in any case! So it would be possible to write a lot and vividly about some geek of Schiklgruber, who fought well and was awarded the Iron Cross for this and ended up becoming later Chancellor of Germany ...
    About the white movement, as for me, everything is very simple, everyone who sings defirambs to the white officers, ah-ah-ah, loved their homeland, fought for the “single and indivisible”, answer honestly one question:AND WAS THE ONE AND INDIVIDUAL ENGLAND, FRANCE, AMERICA, JAPAN OR GERMANY NEEDED? Do you seriously think that the Entente helped White to revive the competitor with whom they fought for centuries? Perhaps answer another question: Look at the map of Soviet Russia in 1918, this is a small bush, surrounded by enemies, so due to what resources did this bush defeat the whites who were “helped” by the Entente?
    It seems that they were given from one trough both of them, if only they would shoot at each other more. So that White, it seems to me, had no chance with "one and indivisible." However, the Reds failed, everything seems to be according to plan, devastation, all sorts of Finns with Balts and Poles came out, Russia is in the ... well, it remains to wait when you can take it with your bare hands. Suddenly, again, not according to plan, Stalin drew himself, he didn’t want to play something by the notes, he had to put forward the aforementioned geoffrey. So Anton Ivanovich Denikin, the son of a soldier guessed, but the brilliantly educated baron, no, and the admiral there too. Victor Hugo in the novel "Ninety-Three Years" in an episode of the heroic death of a royalist corvette, who alone fought with the republican fleet, wrote: CANNOT BE A HERO, FIGHTING AGAINST OWN Fatherland!
    1. Kir
      Kir 2 December 2013 02: 32 New
      0
      Well, it’s precisely they who need Strong Russia only when they themselves will be scattered to the fullest, and take them out of this substance then Yes, and it would be better if Russia didn’t exist as the State, But it would also be desirable for the Proud Peoples to inhabit it would. So it turns out that the so-called monarchists accusing the first Bolsheviks of the collapse, with equal success can blame the other side, But this is not possible, because they are for the sake of the Fatherland, there are only suspicions that they appear to be representatives of some kind, in fact, they may well have the effect of hired provocateurs, exactly the same as the so-called liberals, ultra-leftists and other paid.
      The mere fact that they equal the former with Stalin speaks volumes! at the very least, it’s just those who studied according to a textbook written under the dictation of well-known personnel, and to the maximum the heirs of the unrash trash.
  28. motorized rifle
    motorized rifle 2 December 2013 01: 13 New
    +1
    Regarding the article. Very sensibly composed, i.e. the career is described, all the positive aspects of the origin and the positive description is completed in time, in order to fix the positive image. If the author continued further, then he would definitely have to analyze the actions of the baron during the civil war, and then either write the truth or lie. So usually they lie to their wives, i.e. you have to tell the truth, but not all, "- were with friends in the sauna, drank vodka" is part of the truth, you can tell your wife, and the fact that you ordered the girls from the brothel is also true, but you can’t say it in any case! So it would be possible to write a lot and vividly about some geek of Schiklgruber, who fought well and was awarded the Iron Cross for this and ended up becoming later Chancellor of Germany ...
    About the white movement, as for me, everything is very simple, everyone who sings defirambs to the white officers, ah-ah-ah, loved their homeland, fought for the “single and indivisible”, answer honestly one question:AND WAS THE ONE AND INDIVIDUAL ENGLAND, FRANCE, AMERICA, JAPAN OR GERMANY NEEDED? Do you seriously think that the Entente helped White to revive the competitor with whom they fought for centuries? Perhaps answer another question: Look at the map of Soviet Russia in 1918, this is a small bush, surrounded by enemies, so due to what resources did this bush defeat the whites who were “helped” by the Entente?
    It seems that they were given from one trough both of them, if only they would shoot at each other more. So that White, it seems to me, had no chance with "one and indivisible." However, the Reds failed, everything seems to be according to plan, devastation, all sorts of Finns with Balts and Poles came out, Russia is in the ... well, it remains to wait when you can take it with your bare hands. Suddenly, again, not according to plan, Stalin drew himself, he didn’t want to play something by the notes, he had to put forward the aforementioned geoffrey. So Anton Ivanovich Denikin, the son of a soldier guessed, but the brilliantly educated baron, no, and the admiral there too. Victor Hugo in the novel "Ninety-Three Years" in an episode of the heroic death of a royalist corvette, who alone fought with the republican fleet, wrote: CANNOT BE A HERO, FIGHTING AGAINST OWN Fatherland!
  29. ramin_serg
    ramin_serg 2 December 2013 16: 25 New
    +1
    I think so that in a civil war there are no heroes. There is no heroism in the fratricidal war.
    1. AntonR7
      AntonR7 2 December 2013 21: 36 New
      0
      I do not agree, there are when some are faithful to the oath and ideals, while others destroy everything for the sake of utopian ideas or profit.
      1. Kir
        Kir 3 December 2013 07: 35 New
        -1
        Well, you, I look at the master of substitutions and perversions, and how do you think the ideals are different from utopian ideas? And with regards to the benefits it is better to remain silent, since there was plenty of scum on both sides!
        1. AntonR7
          AntonR7 3 December 2013 20: 48 New
          0
          Ideals from utopian ideas differ, for example, for those officers who have remained faithful to the oath is the love of the army and the homeland, its good traditions, and utopian ideas are what the Bolsheviks wanted to offer, that even the cook could manage the state, that everyone would be equal.
          1. Kir
            Kir 3 December 2013 21: 02 New
            -2
            Well, you see, concepts such as false ideals are not known, since you are talking such nonsense, but with regards to cooks, well, you probably come from Adam or someone else you lead and you know all the real ins and outs of your ancestors? But in general, the supreme measure was not social origin, but the benefit brought to the State, so if this is not clear to you, then I don’t have any conversations with the finished people, and we’ll finish it.
            1. AntonR7
              AntonR7 4 December 2013 21: 31 New
              0
              So I specifically told you what I mean by certain concepts, and you only sprayed and insulted me with saliva. What does my family have to do with it, and with regards to cooks, they should be in their place in the kitchen, and not in politics, do not agree? to each his own!