Military Review

"Vikramaditya" and the prospects for the construction of large carrier-based carriers in Russia

80
"Vikramaditya" and the prospects for the construction of large carrier-based carriers in Russia

On November 16, 2013, in Severodvinsk, the Sevmash enterprise hosted the ceremony of transferring the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to India. The flag of the Indian Navy was hoisted on an aircraft carrier. The Indian motto of the ship: “Vikramaditya” - courageous as the sun. ”The first reaction - I want to say“ uh ... ”, take a breath and wipe the sweat from your forehead with your sleeve.“ Vikramaditya ”- the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier modernized at Sevmash already turned into a long-term construction, complicating relations in Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation Work on the “Pot” on the “Sevmash” - as this ship refers to the working people in Severodvinsk, began in 2004 and ended just now - in 2013. Similar pace make you remember realities Arsky fleet Russia before Tsushima, when the battleships and cruisers built at state-owned shipyards for years became obsolete even before they entered service. According to Sergei Chemezov, head of the Russian Technologies State Corporation, workers had to gather workers from all over the country to fulfill the Indian export contract for Sevmash in Severodvinsk. (1)


The design documentation for Vikramaditya had to be redone many times in the Nevsky Design Bureau due to the changing requirements of the customer and due to a lack of understanding of the state of the ship and the required amount of work on it. The initial Russian-Indian contract, signed in 2004, implied the launch of the ship in 2008. However, the timeframe had to be revised, and the initial cost of the ship modernization project rose from $ 974 million to $ 2,2 billion. Scheduled for November 2011, the first exit of the Vikramaditi at sea was postponed to the end of May 2012. The scheduled delivery of the ship of India in December 2012 of the year was delayed for a year due to the float trials that required repair work on the insulation of the boilers of the propulsion system. Apparently, the total amount of contracts related to the aircraft carrier - this includes purchases of aircraft and the construction of a berth in Mumbai, a simulator in Goa - cost India $ 5 billion.

A major event in the military-technical cooperation of Russia and India gathered in Severodvinsk last Saturday two delegations: the Russian one, headed by the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin, and India headed by the Minister of Defense of India Arakkarambil Kurian Anthony. The ceremony was attended by Indian Ambassador to Russia Ajay Malhotra, Chief of Staff of the Indian Navy Admiral Devendra Joshi, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Admiral Viktor Chirkov, Commander of the Northern Fleet Admiral Vladimir Korolev, new head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Vladimir Shmakov, Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport OJSC "Viktor Komardin, Governor of the Arkhangelsk Region Igor Orlov. The act of transfer of the ship was signed: from the Russian side - Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Igor Sevastyanov, from the Indian side - Commander of the aircraft carrier Commodore Suraj Berri.

Vikramaditya will leave the mooring wall of Sevmash at the end of November. At the time of transition from Severodvinsk to India, a team of factory specialists and contractors in the number of 183 people will be seconded to the crew. For the base of the aircraft carrier, the infrastructure was created at the naval base of the Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay). Estimated life of the ship - 30 years. The Indian Navy plans to use the frigates of the Russian construction of the 11356 project and the frigates of the Indian construction of the 17 project based on them as the Vikramadithi escort.

At the ceremony, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, in particular, said: “For our country, this event is a demonstration of the ability to build warships of this class. After many years, we were able to restore our industry’s competence in building aircraft carriers.” (2) However, we note "Vikramaditya" still was not built in Severodvinsk. Built in the USSR by the Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant and launched in Nikolaev in 1982, introduced into the Soviet fleet in 1988, the Baku TAKR (from Adventum Gorshkov’s 1990) managed to actively serve in the Northern Fleet until 1994. In July, the 1999 of the year, the aircraft-carrying cruiser was towed to Severodvinsk to undergo a deep modernization commissioned by the Indian Navy. The Russian-Indian agreement signed in January of 2004 only provided for the restoration and deep modernization of Admiral Gorshkov, renamed Vikramaditya. Vikramaditya was modernized in Severodvinsk. Now in the ship’s museum there is a stand with the layout of the ship, in which the areas of the ship that have undergone modernization are marked in green.

Already after the signing ceremony, a clarification from Rogozin followed: “We have shown that we can make such ships. But this is a matter of making a political decision. So far we have no need for a ship of this class.” (3) "and" geopolitics ", the statement of the Russian Deputy Prime Minister draws a line using the dot method under the discussions that have periodically appeared in the Russian media after 2008 about the construction of large deck carrier carriers in Russia. After the statement by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu at the Valdai forum of September of this year about the possible rejection of the Bulava (2012) solid-fuel intercontinental ballistic missile of the sea-based missile 4, this is the second recognition of the Russian military-industrial complex in the naval sector . The statements of recent years that modern Russia has the potential to design and build large aircraft carriers are overly optimistic. True, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov promises that it will be possible to return to the program of building aircraft carriers in Russia in 15-25 years. Obviously, without a large-scale reconstruction of Russian industry, actual new industrialization, the construction of a next-generation heavy aircraft carrier in Russia can be forgotten. Domestic shipbuilding should focus on the implementation of the current program of military shipbuilding, "Sevmash", in particular, to continue work in its traditional niche - to build submarines with nuclear reactors.

Now it remains only to recall that only for the period from 2007 to 2012, the views on the prospective construction of aircraft carriers in Russia were twice reversed. The existence of plans for the construction of aircraft carriers was announced by the former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov. However, funding for the construction of aircraft carriers by the state arms program of Russia for 2011-2020 was not provided. In July 2010, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, announced the prospect of deploying five or six new Russian aircraft carriers in the Pacific and Northern Fleets. On February 9, 2012, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Vladimir Vysotsky said that the technical design of the new aircraft carrier would be developed before 2014, and the ship itself would be built after 2020. In December 2012, the new Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, confirmed that serial construction of promising aircraft carriers would begin in Russia after 2021. The beginning of the aircraft carrier project in the Russian Federation, it seemed, was marked by the creation of a new deck pilot training center aviation in the village of Morskoy, 10 km from Yeysk. The Krylov State Scientific Center (former Central Research Institute named after Academician A.N. Krylov) even commissioned draft designs for the new Russian aircraft carrier by order of the Ministry of Defense.

In July, 2013, the former commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Felix Gromov, said that Russia should have at least two aircraft carriers with an escort in the Pacific Ocean, and one in the Northern Fleet. Then it was reported that the construction of an aircraft carrier would cost the Russian treasury, including R & D, all in 400 billion rubles. (5) Russian military expert Alexander Khramchikhin looked at this assessment pessimistically. He called the sum of $ 50 billion at the minimum, $ 100 billion at the maximum - that is how the construction of the shipbuilding base, the aircraft carrier itself, the air group and the entire infrastructure of the ship maintenance, plus training can do. (6)

For comparison, the construction of the American head supersurveyor of the new generation "Gerald R. Ford" is estimated at $ 12,3 billion, of which $ 3,3 billion is spent on research and development. It was recently announced that the ship was ready for 70%, but the cost of building the aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford had already exceeded the planned one for 22%. The cost of the air group based on Gerald R. Ford, basically consisting of X-Numx-generation F-5 airplanes, will be almost $ 35 billion. In total, more than $ 10 billion is obtained (32)

Two shock aircraft carrier of a new generation - "Queen Elizabeth" and "Prince of Wales" are being built in the UK now. November 7 2013 was announced that their value reached £ 6,2 billion (approx. $ 9 billion), which is £ 2 billion more than the initial estimates, and this does not include the cost of the air group for which F-35B planes are to be purchased from US (8)

Because of the high cost of living, France was forced to freeze the program for building new aircraft carriers such as the Porte-Avions 2. Spain and Italy are forced to limit themselves to the content of modern light aircraft carriers in a single version. (9)

Let us list the existing problems in the construction of aircraft carriers in Russia.

First, it is necessary, in fact, to re-create in St. Petersburg the design bureau of large surface ships. Avianosnaya program will require the design of such a completely unfamiliar device, as the aviation electromagnetic catapult. Planes need a new generation of deck-based aircraft, including a compact carrier-based long-range radar guidance and reconnaissance aircraft. Secondly, in Russia it is necessary to build a new shipyard with a slipway for the construction of 100 ships, thousand tons with a displacement.

Note that the possibilities of Severodvinsk "Sevmash" for the construction of large surface ships are limited. Indeed, Sevmash, at its base, was intended for the construction of "Soviet Union" type battleships with a displacement of 60 thousand tons. However, in practice, in surface shipbuilding everything was limited to Sevmash by the construction of two light cruisers of the 68-bis project Molotovsk (1954) and Murmansk (1955) with a displacement of approx. 17 KT Since the beginning of the 1950-ies, Sevmash has successfully specialized in the construction of submarines, including submarines. The versatility set in the years of perestroika is difficult for Sevmash. One can say that no matter what Sevmash does - tankers, an oil-producing platform, super-yachts, only he gets submarines. At present, Sevmash is focused on the implementation of construction programs for the Norex 955 submarine of the Borey project and the Ash tree 885 project. Under these conditions, Sevmash finds it difficult to split apart between the programs for the construction of submarines and surface ships. If we want to build aircraft carriers on Sevmash, then for this it is necessary to build a new covered boathouse on it. Work on the Vikramaditya method in the open air cannot be effective with frequent frosts in winter in Severodvinsk with low temperatures and normal cold winds blowing from the White Sea. At Sevmash, it will also be necessary to deepen the pool where the ships go down and expand the existing bataport. Of course, a dry dock with the size of 420x100x14 meters needs to be built on the Zvezdochka next to Sevmash, but this is for repairing ships of this class. The estimated cost of building an open dry dock in Severodvinsk is $ 572 million, and a closed $ 750 million. (10) In addition, the project for the construction of two aircraft carriers on Sevmash, announced in 2011, with modular delivery of modules from two other enterprises is guaranteed This means that the project will be more expensive, since the modules will have to be moved from St. Petersburg to Severodvinsk, bypassing Scandinavia. It should be noted that the Baltic Plant, which is currently working on the Mistral project, is developing a method for building large surface ships in sections and then transporting them to the assembly site.

In addition, the program of large surface shipbuilding in Severodvinsk will inevitably raise the personnel problem. The need to attract workers and engineering staff will require additional costs for the construction of additional housing and social services.

In 1990, the American expert of the Center for Defense Information, David Eisenberg, in his work Illusion of Power, called the supercarriers "white elephants" and "paper tigers." (11) In his opinion, the power of these ships is greatly exaggerated, and their cost is devastating for the budget. It is more than likely that the first position of Eisenberg is false. Nevertheless, it is obvious that the current Russian Navy is preferable to seek options for an asymmetric response to the carrier threat of a possible enemy. Obviously, the answer lies in the closer interaction of the Navy with the space grouping, which should provide real-time uninterrupted targeting with exact coordinates of the aircraft carriers of the probable enemy and their escorts moving across the sea. Compact, accurate and intelligent systems weapons, including UAVs and combat robots moving in water and air, can be an asymmetric response to a carrier-based threat. Russia has yet to find adequate time for new naval strategies.

Now back to the Indian shipbuilding program. (12) Reconstructed under the supervision of the Indians, the Russian Vikramaditya opens a series of three aircraft carriers. 12 August 2013 India launched the next light aircraft carrier, the Wikrant, which is the Vikramaditya cousin, because it was designed using the St. Petersburg Nevsky Design Bureau. Outwardly and in its parameters, "Vikranta" reminds "Vikramadityu." The Indians invited the French, as well as the knowledgeable Italians in light aircraft carriers, to design the Wikranta. Wikrant is equipped with the LM 2500 gas turbine engines in the United States. Wikranta is being built late on schedule, which indicates difficulties. In the summer of 2012, India began work on the third aircraft carrier of the program, the Vishal. It is planned that Vishal will join Wikramaditi and Wikrant at the start of the 2020s. However, "Vishal" will be significantly larger than its predecessors. Its full displacement will be 65 thousand tons, against 40 thousand tons from "Vikramadity" and "Vikranta". In terms of its parameters and appearance, with the springboard on the nose and the lateral take-off deck, the Vishal will resemble the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov. And only after Vishal the Indians will be able to start building their own supercarrier with a nuclear power plant on board, i.e. India will technologically reach the level of the Soviet 1143.7 project - the non-built Soviet heavy aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk.

Similarly, the Indians intend to work with the maritime air group. The Russian MiG-29K will not be the only aircraft capable of being based on Indian aircraft carriers. The Indian Navy plans to receive a deck modification of the Tejas fighter, its own Indian design. In addition, given the planned deliveries to India of 126 french fighters "Rafale", we can not exclude the purchase of the deck version of this machine "Rafale-M", now used in the French aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle".

The aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy already provides India with an overwhelming superiority in terms of the forces over the Pakistan Navy. However, it is obvious that a potential opponent of the Indian aircraft carriers, in fact, are the new aircraft carriers of China. Now India is guaranteed to guarantee itself at least equality, and perhaps even superiority, even if the Chinese Navy, following Liaonin (the former Varyag), will be put into operation two more aircraft carriers based on J-15 aircraft. (13) China spent 10 years rebuilding the Soviet "Varyag" in the aircraft carrier "Liaoning", which is comparable in time with the efforts of "Sevmash" over the Indian "Vikramaditya". The "Liaoning" can become no earlier than 2017 of the year. Now it becomes clear that the transfer by Russia of India of Soviet aircraft-carrying maritime technologies has allowed New Delhi to overtake in the race of aircraft carrying naval armaments of its neighbor and main rival in the region.

List of sources:

(1) Chemezov explained the delay in repairing the cruiser Admiral Gorshkov // http://gzt.ru/politics/2007/12/22/125921.html

(2) In the Severodvinsk ceremony of transfer of the Indian Navy to the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya took place // http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/246305http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/246305

(3) Rogozin: Russia does not yet need aircraft carrier development // http://www.itar-tass.com/politika/762161

(4) Mace rocket - what to do next? // http://warsonline.info/raketi-i-artilleriya/raketa-bulava-chto-delat-dalshe.html

Tests of the Alexander Nevsky and Vladimir Monomakh submarines are suspended // http://www.aif.ru/society/army/315572

(5) Russian aircraft carrier estimated at 400 billion rubles // http://lenta.ru/news/2013/07/05/aircarrier/

(6) Hramchikhin Alexander. Shipbuilding adventure is expensive // ​​http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2008-06-06/1_avantura.html

Khramchikhin Alexander. Let's live without aircraft carriers // http://rusplt.ru/policy/avianostsi.html

(7) Tebin Prokhor. Superavianostsy - the last argument of Washington // http://russiancouncil.ru/inner/?id_4=634#top

(8) British aircraft carriers: price increases // http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/uk/2013/11/131107_uk_carrier_cost.shtml

(9) Bogdanov Konstantin. Carriers of Europe: from the costly tradition to inexpensive uniformity // http://russiancouncil.ru/inner/?id_4=2302#top

(10) The creation of a dry dock in Severodvinsk is an urgent need - Chief Engineer of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise "Zvezdochka" Oleg Frolov // http://portnews.ru/news/18533/

(11) David Isenberg. The Illusion of Power: Aircraft Carriers and US Military Strategy // http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa134.html

(12) Kramnik Ilya. Indian aircraft carrier: in search of solutions synthesis // http://russiancouncil.ru/inner/?id_4=1605#top

(13) J-15 successfully landed on China's carrier Liaoning: Navy // http://english.sina.com/china/2012/1124/530358.html

The Chinese got a fake aircraft carrier // http://www.rg.ru/2012/10/03/blef-site.html
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  1. drop
    drop 23 November 2013 08: 07
    27
    In addition to the listed problems in the construction of aircraft carriers in Russia, one should take into account the modernization and development on the basis of breakthrough technologies of the "Ship-based aircraft carrier radio-technical flight control system, navigation, landing approach for ship-based aircraft". We have created such a system and submitted proposals to the Government on its development. I have devoted my whole life to the creation of this system, starting with aircraft carriers, where vertical take-off aircraft were based. In addition, we gave proposals for future aircraft carriers and aircraft guidance system. The work for our military-industrial complex enterprises will be interesting. Thank God that there are still scientists and specialists who understand how to solve these problems.
    1. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 23 November 2013 09: 08
      25
      to fulfill the Indian export contract for Sevmash, workers from all over the country had to be gathered in Severodvinsk. (from article)


      We need to really look at the possibilities of the Russian economy.
      The forecast for the development of Russia, made recently by the Ministry of Economic Development Ulyukaev until 2030, does not represent any chance of building aircraft carriers for Russia. Neither due finance, nor production facilities, nor skilled labor resources.
      Therefore, it was necessary, as always, the USSR-Russia did - to look for another option to counter the enemy aircraft carriers, and first of all, to break the fifth column of the enemy in the country so that it would not defeat Russia from the inside, as happened with the USSR.
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 23 November 2013 10: 58
        22
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Neither due finance, nor production facilities, nor skilled labor resources.

        There are always excuses if there is no desire.
        In ten years, you can save money and train staff and build a base, and if management is not able to solve such problems, then you need to give a kick. After the war, the country was destroyed and our fathers restored it and sent Gagarin into space.
        1. shpuntik
          shpuntik 23 November 2013 12: 54
          +5
          Army General
          saturn.mmm BY Today, 10:58 ↑
          In ten years, you can accumulate money and educate staff and build a base,

          Yeah, if only 10 years, all 20s had ruined the parliament.
          and if the leadership is not able to solve such problems, then you need to give a kick.

          This is too kind. Catch, land, take away stolen goods, and then ... maybe let go. The main thing is to take the money back. smile Because of this, all the fuss. soldier
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 24 November 2013 13: 16
          +1
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          and educate staff

          You want to educate them forcibly? Well, young people don’t go to welders, assemblers and installers. The mentality of youth is the maximum of money for a minimum of effort. Next, to become qualified, you must work these 10 years in the manufacture of appropriate products, they must go from 2 to 6
          1. CHILD
            CHILD 24 November 2013 15: 58
            +1
            But is it worth going to production? Not a lot of money, hard work ... now it’s more profitable to shift the paper in the office .... and while manual labor will cost a penny, there’s not a damn good ... material values ​​are not created in offices ... .
        3. vtur
          vtur 24 November 2013 13: 40
          +2
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          There are always excuses if there is no desire.

          I agree.
          In general, a stick at two ends: to build is insanely expensive, not to build is to remain at the level of the Papuans.
          As for the Indian Ocean and the Pakistan-India-China trinity, there is something like the "South American dreadnought race" of the beginning of the last century ...
      2. shpuntik
        shpuntik 23 November 2013 12: 49
        13
        Colonel-General
        vladimirZ RU Today, 09:08 ↑
        We need to really look at the possibilities of the Russian economy.

        Of course, review the results of privatization, introduce confiscation of property. Return 90 billion green rubles / year of exported capital. Then the money should be enough. yes
        The forecast for the development of Russia made recently by the Ministry of Economic Development Ulyukaev until 2030,

        And where will be Mr. Ulyulyukaev in 2030? Probably further than the Commander-in-Chief Vysotsky today? wink
        Therefore, it was necessary, as always, the USSR-Russia did - to look for another option to counter the enemy aircraft carriers,

        Well, the construction of aircraft carriers with us is not an option to counter the SHA aircraft carriers. Although, if you put them on self-sufficiency and self-financing, to compete with the "EMPIRE OF GOOD", then yes. Joke. sad
        and first of all, to break the fifth column of the enemy in the country so that it does not break Russia from the inside, as happened with the USSR.

        I agree, one hundred percent. But what if, now in power, the fifth column of the former USSR? what
      3. goldfinger
        goldfinger 23 November 2013 20: 14
        +3
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Neither due finance, nor production facilities, nor skilled labor resources.

        Land Belarusian. Funny, but not funny! During sea trials, the lining of seven (sic!) Boilers out of eight flew off! Lost technologies for the production of special fireclay refractories. They put the Chinese ones. And - embarrassment! Why does Russia now need such tsatzki like an aircraft carrier? Do what you do best now, and most importantly, cheaper. And the aircraft carrier is for Putin to take a beautiful picture on the command bridge? It turns out that "Peter the Great" has a special cabin - not a single sailor in the world will understand what it is. By the depth of the deflection before the authorities, Russia has no equal, maybe some kind of Papuan. You have to live within your means.
        1. AZB15
          AZB15 24 November 2013 03: 15
          0
          I scribble only on one point, on a special cabin. It’s for nothing .... In any fleet, from time immemorial, on ships foreseen as flagships, admiral’s premises (cabins) were arranged. They could even be hastily converted if they were not.

          Oh, damn it, I scribble about chamotte. Technology is not lost, why lose? refractory kerpich release. They just cut down the dough for easy, bought the Sinaw. Or maybe? Was it a diversion of Pakistan?
          1. goldfinger
            goldfinger 24 November 2013 04: 19
            0
            Neighbor Belarus. Fighting off as I can.
            Quote: AZB15
            In any fleet, from time immemorial, on the ships supposed to be flagship in advance, admiral's premises (cabins) were arranged. They could even be hastily converted if they were not.

            In Moscow, a political instructor who raped children in Putin's "cabin" was sentenced to 18 years of strict regime
            publication time: 8 August 2013 g., 14: 00
            last updated: August 8, 2013 14:16
            On Thursday, the Moscow City Court passed a verdict on Vasily Midtsev, head of the "Young Eagles of the Fleet" children's patriotic organization, a retired political worker of the Pacific Fleet. He was found guilty of dozens of episodes of pedophilia, some of which took place in Putin's so-called cabin on the Peter the Great nuclear cruiser.
            By the decision of the court, Vasily Midtsev will spend 18 years in a maximum security penal colony, the official website of the capital's GSU SK RF reports.
            Meanwhile, Vasily Midtsev has repeatedly committed violent acts of a sexual nature and lecherous actions against his charges, both in the premises of the club and during trips. Including crimes were committed on the operating missile cruiser Marshal Ustinov, as well as on the heavy nuclear cruiser, the flagship of the Northern Fleet, Peter the Great. Both ships were based in the port of Severomorsk in the Murmansk region, and on them Midtsev committed 17 rapes.
            By the way, the Midtsev club kept a letter of gratitude from the commander of the heavy nuclear cruiser Peter the Great.
            In this entire pedopathic epic, I, the land Belarusan, is interested, if possible, in only one episode: namely, Midtsev’s homoerotic adventures on the Peter the Great nuclear-powered missile cruiser. According to the plot of the prosecution, part of the fornication took place in the presidential apartment of the flagship of the Russian fleet. Pretty boys were dressed up in sailor uniforms, allowed to shoot with military weapons, and then taken to the presidential apartment, where they indulged in the most unbridled group sin. The boys well remembered the luxurious atmosphere of the presidential cabin, its sconces, lamps, brushes, candelabra, etc.
            I have several questions in this regard. The first. Is it advisable to have a luxurious presidential boudoir on the flagship of the Russian fleet? Does President Obama, for example, have a royal suite on the USS George HW Bush or on any of the ten Nimitz-class American nuclear carriers? Vladimir Putin has 26 palaces - only Kim Jong-un has more, is it worth turning a warship into a floating residence with gold toilets? Is this in itself an insult to the Russian fleet?
            The second question. Who else is allowed in there? For example, we know that a gangster, the organizer of the abduction of the son of Kaspersky, an employee of the FSO, Alexei Ustimchuk, was allowed into them. Ustimchuk starred in the presidential chair and uploaded pictures to the network.
            This is what cabin I meant.
            About the second scribbling.
            publication time: September 28, 2012 09:29
            last updated: September 28, 2012 09:30
            Earlier, the Russian media, citing the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Andrei Dyachkov, reported that Russian specialists used Chinese bricks to modernize the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier for India.
            Dyachkov explained that during the tests at sea, the fireproof masonry in the boiler furnaces was repaired by alternating the boilers from the operation, but, nevertheless, it again partially collapsed during subsequent trips to high capacities.
            Answering Rogozin's question about what materials were used, Dyachkov said that they were "Chinese-made fireclay bricks." “Unfortunately, the Russian production of these materials has been lost,” the USC president admitted.
            1. AZB15
              AZB15 24 November 2013 07: 06
              +1
              I have already written about the admiral's quarters on the flagship, etc. What else do you want to know and why did you bring "Putin's cabin" here - I have no idea. To savor the details or something, there are enough of them in any country. On the zone they will explain to him that he is not right at all.

              I'm not why and why Rogozin said this, I have to this state. the figure has a peculiar attitude. It is enough to type in the search "Production of refractory bricks in Russia" and here you are, please, what is there to be wiser about http://www.oup.ru/. This is just one of many.
            2. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 24 November 2013 14: 01
              +4
              Quote: goldfinger
              This is what cabin I meant.

              It’s bitter and insulting to read like that. One villain smeared mud on a warship. This is bad!
              BUT WHAT DOES PUTIN'S CABIN HERE HERE? None of the ships of the Russian Navy (according to specification) - THERE IS NO SUCH CABIN! There is a FLAGMAN'S CABIN! It is exactly the same as the commander's cabin, but is designed to accommodate the FORMATION COMMANDER and his superiors while on board the ship. The best in everyday life is the ship's commander's cabin. And by right, to the extent of the responsibility of the ship commander! Guests, and even more so chiefs, are always accommodated in the best cabins. BUT!!! Under no circumstances is the commander's cabin occupied, even by the Supreme Commander of the RF Armed Forces. This is our maritime tradition built into law. Although, out of a sense of respect, the commander always invites the flagship to have his cabin at his discretion. During my 40 years of service in the Navy, I do not remember a case when someone "evicted" the commander from his cabin, even when in other rooms they slept "on their heads." THIS IS THE AXIOM of naval life and service.
              About the flagship cabin. Access to it is the instrument technician and the cabin manager, who carefully monitors the ABSOLUTE! cleanliness and order in it. To get into it without the permission of the ship's commander, by definition, no one can. If this happens, then the instrument technician and the manager will change - immediately. Therefore, I personally see two reasons here: a) the villain was the head of this room, b) the bosses and the competent authorities did not know the situation well.
              But to add the name of the President to this dirty case is "honey and mecca" of PR people from the yellow press. And also spiteful critics (different reasons). It's like calling the White House PUBLIC after the Monica Lewinsky epic. But our groveling pro-Western scribblers keep quiet about this.
              Yes, dirty, ashamed, but what does Putin have to do with it? He has something to criticize for without it, that's just the case, and not like, anyhow to spoil. IMHO.
              1. shpuntik
                shpuntik 25 November 2013 01: 15
                -1
                General Major Avatar
                Boa KAA RU Yesterday, 14:01 ↑
                Yes, dirty, ashamed, but what does Putin have to do with it? He has something to criticize for without it, that's just the case, and not like, anyhow to spoil. IMHO.

                Alexander, not everyone understood his act, including me. It happens, when spontaneously, a child will surprise with something, I want to pat him on the head, kiss him on the forehead. This is where the video started, the boy was alone when the GDP moved towards him. Then the people ran up. It can be seen that the GDP was hushed up at first, but did not give up intention. Strange behavior, don’t you?

        2. abdrah
          abdrah 24 November 2013 03: 47
          +1
          special cabin ..! zhezhot, compatriot.
        3. FATEMOGAN
          FATEMOGAN 24 November 2013 18: 09
          +2
          Quote: goldfinger
          It turns out that "Peter the Great" has a special cabin - not a single sailor in the world will understand what it is. By the depth of the deflection in front of the authorities, Russia has no equal, maybe some Papuan


          Do not carry any crap Russophobic, you know our !!! hustle and bustle, not knowing the case, special cabins, as you called them, are on many large ships of any state, I’m telling you this as the senior assistant to the captain. Special, because usually the crew doesn’t live there, but guests or special passengers. And where do you think the commander-in-chief should live and deal with state affairs, with sailors on the same ship ??? It seems that the gavnolentochnye and reached Belarus.
          1. goldfinger
            goldfinger 24 November 2013 19: 20
            0
            Do not carry any crap Russophobic, you know our !!!Quote: Starp, but be rude like a boatswain (read in books about pirates, as a child). Not good, venerable "senior assistant to the commander (captain, I don't know how to do it correctly) of the ship." Teach various bad words, and also consider yourself, probably, the so-called. "Big brother" of the dark, land-based Belarusians. Ay-Ay-Ay !!!
    2. shpuntik
      shpuntik 23 November 2013 12: 31
      +4
      A drop of RU Today, 08:07 AM
      We created such a system and made proposals to the Government on its development. I devoted my whole life to the creation of this system, starting with aircraft-carrying ships, where vertical take-off aircraft were based.

      That is the point, that people have devoted their whole lives to the cause of defending their homeland, and a gang of crooks has squandered everything. Look at the facts: today we are losing aircraft carriers, and China and India have armed technology and aircraft carriers themselves. Here is the result. I’m sure that the sale and sawing of Project 1143 ships on nails is connected with their anti-submarine fighting power — this is what the Americans really didn’t want. Therefore, this is the first thing that went on sale.
      The second point: it’s advantageous for the states to arm China, with the subsequent set on us. Which they did through Elzin. Then, they will stay afloat for a very long time.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 23 November 2013 17: 24
        +2
        China and India are on knives with each other.
  2. AZB15
    AZB15 23 November 2013 08: 18
    -16 qualifying.
    IT IT TO HIT!
    Yes, when will it end. I already wrote once about this - I repeat. If the author does not know what to write about at all, he pokes a finger in his ass, then licks it and scribbles an article about the Racean, beat, aircraft carrier - when to build it and what is needed for this. And the discussion begins for the hundred millionth time. Already any more or less thinking person from these articles can monograph pages on 200. SUCH AUTHORS ARE BROKEN !!!!
    1. AZB15
      AZB15 23 November 2013 14: 47
      +3
      ABOUT! The same as the author of the article, I got so many minuses ... lovers pour water into the sieve! Rjunimagu!

      I will chew these wise men snot just ask 3 question:

      1. Catapults?
      2. Navy postscript (naturally with all the tricks)?
      3. Where do major repairs take place? There is a true option: in the United States, they beat ...

      My personal opinion:
      - The Russian Navy does not need a heavy aircraft carrier in the form of "Nimitz" at all;
      - according to 2 the lungs of AV protection of the water area in the SF and Pacific Fleet are enough for the eyes, taking into account a possible trip somewhere.
      - Natalia Ivan Khariton Uliana Yakov in Russia will not build an aircraft carrier until at least 2028 year. Who will survive, let him be convinced!
      1. Volkhov
        Volkhov 23 November 2013 16: 02
        -1
        Moreover, the Russian Federation is part of a system of countries with the United States, China and NATO, and a number of smaller allies. So the system as a whole has U.S. aircraft carriers in the first place, but the role of the Russian Federation in the system is a penal battalion, so heavy weapons are not supposed to be - an infantry priority and that the explosives be behind (for stability).
        It is in this that the priority of international law over Russian is expressed.
      2. shpuntik
        shpuntik 23 November 2013 17: 26
        -2
        Corporal
        AZB15 RU Today, 14: 47 ↑
        1. Catapults?

        Shit, a question! If the task would be set, they would do it while the hull was being built.
        2. Navy postscript (naturally with all the tricks)?

        Yes, and why the fuck you do not need a home port with moorings: a change of crew at sea, parking on the roads, for that matter, a repair call and docking at the manufacturer.
        My personal opinion:
        - The Russian Navy does not need a heavy aircraft carrier in the form of "Nimitz" at all;

        And what is the fundamental advantage of the lung over the heavy? Many times cheaper?
        We need a full-fledged, atomic 100 thousandth to replace Kuznetsov. If there is a need, build a second, if necessary, then a third. One full-fledged aircraft carrier is needed to preserve the design, production groundwork.
        in Russia they will not build an aircraft carrier until at least 2028. Who will survive, let him be convinced!

        To replace Kuznetsov will be built. Only these figures will be replaced, such as Rogozin. Here is one:
        1. AZB15
          AZB15 24 November 2013 03: 26
          0
          ITIT !!! K-A- !!! M-A-T-A !!! - R-A-N (exactly).

          You either joked, and if you didn’t joke ....
          - catapult - what is this? life buoy, where do we want to go there and hang? (this is still under construction);
          - parking on the roadstead? shift at sea? HZ, probably still joked ...;
          - atomic 100-th? Oh-oh-oh, whipping !!!! and reactors in that KAMATARAN, which is in the diagram ...
          1. shpuntik
            shpuntik 24 November 2013 04: 47
            +1
            AZB15 RU Today, 03: 26 ↑
            - catapult - what is this? life buoy, where do we want to go there and hang? (this is still under construction);

            Exactly. The deck is cut, the catapult is welded. This is a laborious, bad option. In fact, the finished catapult was back in 1986, steam.
            http://topwar.ru/13952-rozhdenie-i-gibel-sedmogo-avianoscakatapulta.html
            If you start building a boathouse now, designing is about two years. During this time, you can determine the mechanism (e / magnetic, steam), the size of the catapult, finishers. And start making. While the hull will be formed, the catapult will be made. There will be delays, problems, coordination, without this in any way. But there will be a result, experience, technology development.
            Maybe the guys from the GRU will try, but the Americans are stealing the catapult in the drawings, who knows? The road will be overpowered by a walker. yes
            ZY The word "FUCK !!!" not swearing, not related to the topic of genitals. Eat bolder wink.
            1. AZB15
              AZB15 24 November 2013 07: 18
              +1
              I APPEAL TO ALL THE PRESENT SHIPBOARDS, AS DESIGNERS, AND BUILDERS!

              Please explain comrade shpuntik that he is, to put it mildly, mistaken.
              Although I’m not bad, I’m still a builder. I can only tell you that if you start building a house, and then start thinking that to stuff into that house in terms of filling and communications is what will happen to the house.

              Comrade shpuntik, you are probably a humanist - in terms of education? I was just amused by this moment to laughter: "During this time, you can decide on the mechanism (electric / magnetic, steam), the size of the catapult, finishers. And start making."
              1. Misantrop
                Misantrop 24 November 2013 16: 12
                0
                Quote: AZB15
                Comrade shpuntik, you are probably a humanist - in terms of education? I was just amused by this moment to laughter: "During this time, you can decide on the mechanism (electric / magnetic, steam), the size of the catapult, finishers. And start making."

                He is a diploma shipbuilder. BUT ... "modern bottling". Therefore, you should not be surprised by his crazy ideas ... request lol
              2. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 24 November 2013 16: 47
                +1
                Quote: AZB15
                Please explain comrade shpuntik that he is, to put it mildly, mistaken.

                AZB15, I welcome you! I fully share your position on this issue. But Roman, because of a desire to do better, ended up on the site where his competence is not enough. He sincerely (although being mistaken!) Expresses his opinion, which, following the spirit of the site, we must respect, and, if possible, softly and reasonably dissuade him, show the fallacy of his position. Judging by the expressi komenty, you are still a rather young, and therefore impatient colleague. Do not get excited, have patience: not everyone built ships like you, and probably like me, not everyone served them. But for this we communicate in order to better understand each other and the problems discussed at the forum.
                For example, in communicating with Roman, I was most pleased that he explained to me what rpkSN is and why they are generally needed. But this does not mean that I should call him "sickly green", because he served in the Navy for 40 years.
                PS. Sorry for the tyagomutin, it’s just a shame when, because of your tone, you (COMPETENT PERSONS) are minuscated. Successes.
                1. shpuntik
                  shpuntik 24 November 2013 20: 06
                  +1
                  Boa KAA RU Today, 16:47 ↑ New
                  For example, in communicating with Roman, I was most pleased that he explained to me what rkkSN is and why they are needed at all.

                  Alexander wake up! smile Where did I explain to you about the SSBN ??
                  Secondly: "Mistral" aircraft carrier ??? So we will definitely not understand each other. Can you still return to the Soviet classification: "helicopter carrier", "aircraft carrier", "aircraft carrier"? And we will not involve the UAV? They can be launched from a submarine, we are talking about carrier-based aircraft.


              3. shpuntik
                shpuntik 24 November 2013 20: 24
                +1
                AZB15 RU Today, 07: 18 ↑ New
                I can only tell you that if you start building a house, and then start thinking that to stuff into that house in terms of filling and communications is what will happen to the house.

                Well, okay. So first you call the stove-maker, he puts the stove with the pipe, and then you dance from it? Surely not so, provide a hole in the roof under the pipe, and then lay the stove.
                The design takes place in parallel, and when the size is known, the weight is left space for the mechanism. See how gun mounts changed how they cut an extra compartment on the submarine.
                You probably humanities - in terms of education?

                Just not, I saw how they do it.
              4. gispanec
                gispanec 24 November 2013 21: 02
                +1
                Quote: AZB15
                Although I’m not bad, I’m still a builder. I can only say that if you start building a house

                having built a house ... a cottage ... even a bathhouse ... you suddenly imagined sebya a specialist in shipbuilding ... I quietly forge ..... yeah, the resource is full of smart, gifted and unrecognized geniuses, and the country did not know what everything is so simple and the main thing is right ... everyone decided for us we need-we do not need an aircraft carrier ..... well, no one is discussing bacterological weapons ... chemical .... thermonuclear .... everything is ok ... everything is necessary, but the aircraft carrier ... no ... expensive ... there is no point in applying ... show off, etc., and nuclear is not expensive? ... meaning in application ?? itd .... to me as a Russian person, a loving Motherland (not to be confused with the government), an aircraft carrier is needed from all sides and production must be raised ... everything will work around it and the carrier-based aircraft will not die ..... and stand by the coast of Syria, Vietnam, Venezuela, Cuba, and we have enough money to build and operate, and even for 3 pieces that the Navy really needs ... and PNH are all those who are against ....
                1. AZB15
                  AZB15 25 November 2013 03: 34
                  0
                  Yes, for yourself, slowly, hto doesn’t give you, there were always enough manilovs who dreamed in Russia, but there was no passage from fools at all.
                  The budget with a deficit was accepted, those tins that are being built would be completed, and some aircraft carrier should be served.
                  Yeah, you will swim on it in Aden, scare pirates.
                  And why does a Russian person have a nickname like a Spaniard?
                  PS No, I didn’t build a bath, I didn’t have a chance. Monolithic houses up to 9 floors, bridges and roads.
            2. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 24 November 2013 16: 23
              +2
              Quote: shpuntik
              If you start building now ... During this time, you can decide on the mechanism (e / magnetic, steam), the size of the catapult, finishers. And start making.

              Roman, apparently the Americans obeyed your advice, or
              Maybe the guys from the GRU tried, yes, the Americans

              what happened with their newest AVU "D. Ford" is this thing: "... three key systems, without which Gerald Ford, in general, is simply not functional, today they simply do not exist in nature yet. And it is difficult to tell when they appear. These are the Dual-Band Radar (DBR), Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) and the Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG) turbo-electric landing system. All three systems are in experimental stage. samples ". Without them, the aircraft carrier for 10 years will be a heap of iron afloat, at the outfitting wall of the plant. http://warfiles.ru/show-42467 http://warfiles.ru/user/dilanst/
              1. shpuntik
                shpuntik 24 November 2013 20: 36
                +1
                Boa KAA RU Today, 16:23 ↑ New
                Roman, apparently the Americans obeyed your advice, or

                This is a common construction practice. You proved my case with this example, and at the same time answered:
                Lance Sergeant
                AZB15 RU Today, 07: 18 ↑ New
                I was just amused by this moment to laughter: "During this time, you can decide on the mechanism (electric / magnetic, steam), the size of the catapult, finishers. And start making."

                This is exactly what happens in most cases when the sample does not have time to ship. But the designer left a place for him, laid cable routes and so on.
                Do you and the builder want everything to be assembled like in the Lego constructor? Maybe someday there will be a "supermodular" design, but not today.
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 24 November 2013 16: 04
          +3
          Quote: shpuntik
          Corporal
          AZB15 RU Today, 14: 47 ↑
          1. Catapults?
          Shit, a question! If the task would be set, they would do it while the hull was being built.

          This was a problem for the USSR. Therefore, we asked India to copy them from the former British aircraft carrier Hercules. India refused, referring to the terms of the ship's sale by England. Now, I think this is not a problem. But we need an E / M catapult. And even the amers do not have it.
          Quote: shpuntik
          And why the heck do not need a home port with moorings: a change of crew at sea, parking on the roads, for that matter

          We have already done this with 1143. What happened is known. Into the account of home registry and system: open, finally, the eyes of the American admirals! they, the orphans, still do not know about this, therefore, with persistence they continue to improve the system of basing their fleet. What the most nasty USA government indulges them in this. Well, stupid people! (M. Zadornov). But for some reason, they have AVU for 50 years !?
          On the change of crew at sea. It’s immediately obvious that he’s not a sailor! Fishermen spend the shift at the port of call. And this is 50 man of strength. And at TAKRE there were 1566 people on the first BS! Well, how are you going to change them, dreamer.
          Quote: shpuntik
          call for repair and docking at the manufacturer.

          TAKRs were built in Nikolaev, and docked in Sevastopol (in a dry dock), and then in Roslyakovo (in PD). Apparently your idea was not even suitable for the mighty Union: it is so unproductive to ruin the capacities of shipyards (shipyard yards).
          Quote: shpuntik
          We need a full-fledged, atomic 100 one thousandth to replace Kuznetsov. If need be

          As we build a 100 thousand meter, so immediately "need" will come. Little secret. The maintenance and operation of the Kuzi costs the Navy the same as the entire Baltic Fleet. Therefore, even the Navy General Committee, realistically assessing the capabilities of the fleet, speaks of an 80-manned aircraft with a nuclear power plant, an E / M catapult, and 60 aircraft. But desires and opportunities are two big differences, as they say in Odessa.
          Quote: shpuntik
          To replace Kuznetsov will be built. Only ... Here it is:

          Maybe this?
          1. shpuntik
            shpuntik 24 November 2013 21: 23
            +1
            Boa KAA RU Today, 16:04 ↑ New
            Now, I think this is not a problem. But you need an E / M catapult. And even the amers do not even have it.

            How are you going to make an e / magnetic catapult without building an aircraft carrier? By steam I gave a link, and rightly this is not a problem.
            We have already been through this since 1143. What happened is known. Into the account of home registry and system: open, finally, the eyes of the American admirals!

            What happened? Sold to the Chinese and Indians due to lack of locations? Another reason, obviously.
            Read carefully: where did I say that I do not need a pier? Let me explain: you need to start building an aircraft carrier, even if it will be on the roadstead.
            Apparently your idea was not even suitable for the mighty Union: so unproductive ruin power shipyards (slipways of shipyards).
            Apparently you didn’t understand anything again. lol They docked in Sevastopol, because the stocks of the shipyard were busy, and were intended for construction. As expected. Now, in order to save money, the manufacturer will gladly take a large ship for repair and modernization. What will the slipway do after the aircraft carrier is built? fellow The problems of repair-docking are contrived.
            On the change of crew at sea. It’s immediately clear that he is not a sailor! Fishermen spend the shift at the port of call.

            Yah! Tell you how the crew changes over a 12-mile zone, a harbor boat? How are cases transferred in a few hours? Here you, just the "headquarters", apparently, are afraid of everything, look around at every rustle wink ... The main inconvenience on the roads: loading "consumables" and food, but not changing the crew. During construction, one pier will be deepened, do not worry.
            As we build a 100 thousand meter, so immediately "need" will come. Little secret. The maintenance and operation of the "Kuzi" costs the Navy as much as the entire Baltic Fleet.
            There will be no need. Need will come for those people who brought "to mind" "Vikramaditya" - they will now be dispersed. Therefore, the question arose: to build or not, what to do with people? I see you willingly believe the statements of the commanders. Well, your business.
            hi
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 25 November 2013 00: 39
              +2
              Quote: shpuntik
              Read carefully: where did I say that I do not need a pier?

              Oh how! Yes you, my friend, shuuuut nickname! What do you think?
              "And why the fuck is not needed a home port with berths: crew change at sea, parking on the roads, for that matter, calling for repairs and docking at the manufacturer's plant." (23.11 at 17:26)
              You have pleased us with this "pearl", and now you say that we misunderstood you? BUT!
              Quote: shpuntik
              the manufacturer will gladly take for repair, modernization a large ship

              ROMA! do not confuse three things: repair, docking, modernization. These are two different things! Different in scope of work, their cost and timing. The plant may take it, ("if there is no grin" to / f- "Elusive Avengers") but who will give him? for that price? The tender, however, must be won. Nowadays capitalism is in the yard, if not noticed. So, dashingly throwing phrases is one thing, but counting the navy's money is another matter.
              Quote: shpuntik
              Tell you how the crew changes over a 12-mile zone, a harbor boat? How are cases transferred in a few hours? Here you are, just the "headquarters", apparently, you are afraid of everything, look around at every rustle. The main inconvenience in the roadstead: loading "consumables" and food, but not changing the crew.

              Yes, you are a moroman, my friend! Well, well ... If you talk about the 12-mile zone, and not about the anchorage point, raid boat, and not about the working barkaz, then everything is clear to me with you!
              On the question of "staff". The Main Command of the Navy also has a headquarters, and a chief of staff, and a flagship. And not a single "shtafirka" dares to call these people "staff", because they are all honored sailors. Before getting there, they passed at least the positions of KK (PL), KS, NSh formations. From l-ta, to cap. 1 rank, they all gulped the ship's daring. Over the years, experience and knowledge have been added, they graduated from the academy, but there was no iron health. And then - you need to grow, not a century to pull the ship's strap, you need to free up the place of youth.
              Before being at the headquarters, I served on, (in) iron up to the rank of rank. I have 2 orders for "not very peaceful affairs" and a medal "ZBZ", 2 other medals. Why should I be ashamed? Divisional or flotilla headquarters?
              And he was afraid of silence, when suddenly the operation of the mechanisms, the hum of the servomotors became inaudible ... You open your eyes: it is dark, quiet and the smell of a spindle in the CPU. So, sir, the wrong one was attacked! ("Swim - We Know!" Film Volga-Volga).
              I consider further bickering counter-productive, as I hope we understand each other.
              1. shpuntik
                shpuntik 25 November 2013 02: 21
                +1
                Boa KAA RU Today, 00:39 ↑ New
                Oh how! Yes you, my friend, shuuuut nickname! What do you think?
                "And why the fuck is not needed a home port with berths: crew change at sea, parking on the roads, for that matter, calling for repairs and docking at the manufacturer's plant."

                Keyword: "for that matter." Took the phrase out of context, it was a description of the "minimum" option. I wasn't going to joke.
                .
                The plant may take it, ("if there is no grin" to / f- "Elusive Avengers") but who will give him? for that price? The tender, however, must be won.

                Alexander, what the hell is the tender? wassat A few docks for an aircraft carrier?
                You want to save.
                With you, everything is also clear to me, because you sail in shipbuilding, frankly speaking. The fact that cap2 is worthy of respect, but misunderstanding of the situation in shipbuilding does not cancel. Do not see that "Mistral", "SuperJet" is a torpedoing of our production, defense capability. what
                "Moreman" (6 years of pure qualification), as you say, has the rank of a reserve officer, although he did not serve. I didn't have to tszt, in the years of famine. And also built submarines, NK. So you don't have to tell me about docking. I wasn't going to attack, I just wanted to know what you meant. So sir, be healthy. hi
  3. atesterev
    atesterev 23 November 2013 09: 46
    +2
    Yesterday they fermented in the NPKB regarding the surrender of this same Avdotya !!!
    1. shpuntik
      shpuntik 23 November 2013 19: 20
      +3
      atesterev RU Today, 09:46 AM
      Yesterday they fermented in the NPKB regarding the surrender of this same Avdotya !!!

      Well done !!! We’ll drink a comp - but we won’t disgrace the fleet !!! wink
      PS PEOPLE, WHAT DID YOU BEAST? A MAN FOR TWO YEARS = 233 comments fellow
      He shared modestly joy, intellectually, in a design way, and you’re under it. stop
      atesterev drinks
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 24 November 2013 17: 13
        +1
        Quote: shpuntik
        He shared modestly joy, intellectually, in a design way, and you’re under it.

        Novel! You taught me the basics of VM tactics and BSF. Therefore, with a clear conscience, I am repaying debt in the area where you are strong! In the spelling of the RUSSIAN language.
        The word INTELL and GENTO are written with "I";
        - BY - DESIGN - through a hyphen, since this is a circumstance of the mode of action, but non-adjective (unless, of course, you are familiar with such words in language theory);
        - PAYOLA is written with "A" (as is customary in the Navy).
        I would have endured everything, but when, man, considering himself an intellectual makes a grammatical mistake in the word "intellectual" (and in one sentence - 3!), then it is my duty, as a navigator, to indicate the correct path.
        Sorry, colleague, it so happened, not from evil, but for the sake of truth!
        1. shpuntik
          shpuntik 24 November 2013 21: 38
          +1
          Boa KAA RU Today, 17:13 ↑ New
          Novel! You taught me the basics of VM tactics and BSF.

          It was apparently NI again wassat.
          it’s my duty, as a navigator, to point the right way.

          I am not good at grammar, I make mistakes, the main thing is that you noticed them, and I hope I understood the meaning of what was written. yes
          Sorry, colleague, it so happened, not from evil, but for the sake of truth!

          Yah! lol So I believed bully .
  4. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 23 November 2013 11: 21
    +9
    The article presents a good excursion into the history of the issue. It shows the difficulties that the country will face in the construction of carrier-based carriers, the state of aircraft carrier construction in the world. There is no one (stated in the title of the article) - the prospects for the construction of this type of ships. There can only be one conclusion: we can’t build something similar to the American AVU, we need to look for an antidote on the paths of an asymmetric answer: a) anti-shipborne BR (China, USSR), b) plasma and space grouping (RF; c) battle drones: air and underwater, d ) cyber impact and computer failure, software violation - and so on.
    In the meantime, salvation in the rkkSN and plRK, possibly anti-ship ICBMs.
    1. shpuntik
      shpuntik 23 November 2013 13: 36
      +3
      Boa KAA RU Today, 11:21 AM
      There can only be one conclusion: we cannot build something similar to the American ABP, we need to look for an antidote on the paths of an asymmetric answer:

      Can't or don't want to? If from a 40 thousandth helicopter carrier (in fact), they made an almost full-fledged aircraft carrier, then we are able to design and build, a matter of time. But if we do this after 2021, when experts die out, technology is lost, then most likely not. Or it will be much more expensive.
      And the second point: do you think the AUG of our fleet will be able to play a role in the destruction of the AUG SHA and partners? Rather, "Granite", but good torpedoes from submarines. I think the distance "Onyx" is 300 km. no one will let you in.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 23 November 2013 15: 55
        +3
        Good afternoon, Roman. I will try to answer your questions.
        Quote: shpuntik
        Can't or don't want to?

        100-thousandth, with 4 catapults, electric propulsion and other bells and whistles today - we can not. The reasons are indicated in the article, I will not repeat it. This is - in 1's.
        Secondly, there is such a thing as "political and economic expediency" (how much it will cost and what I will have from this). Therefore, they calculated: 2 years to build, or build a new covered eling, an increase in combat potential, cost, or during the same time to make 10 Boreas using proven technologies - and came to the conclusion: AVU will wait. Therefore, they DO NOT WANT.
        Quote: shpuntik
        from the 40 thousandth helicopter carrier (in fact), they made an almost full-fledged aircraft carrier,

        Whether oh! Mistral = avu "Nimitz"? Do we have an analogue of the F-35? Or are 16 Ka-52Ks comparable in combat capabilities to the AVU air wing? Here you are clearly excited. That is, the comparison is, at least, incorrect.
        Quote: shpuntik
        after the 2021 year, when experts die out, technology is lost,

        Well, someone will still survive! But that's not even the point. Our 20th century technologies have long been hopelessly outdated. This is recognized by the shipbuilders themselves. (Expensive, long, costly). Therefore, with the purchase of Mistral, we are also acquiring technologies for the construction of large-capacity ships (not barrels - oil tankers, but SHIPS). Everything new is the lot of young people. This is the one who needs to be taught, and the experience ... yes, it must be carefully stored and passed on. I have been to Yantar many times. So old people don't really believe in computer technology. (How can you believe that you don't fully understand!) On this occasion, I remembered the film "Days of the Zhurbinykh". The correct film, life.
        Quote: shpuntik
        Do you think the AUG of our fleet will be able to play a role in the destruction of the AUG SHA and partners?

        On this occasion, I already wrote on our website. Do not consider it work - look koment (Boa KAA from November 17 2013 04: 39 | A blow from under water. How strong are American AUGs?)
        If after that questions arise, I will try to answer them due to my competence.
        1. shpuntik
          shpuntik 23 November 2013 18: 42
          +3
          Major General
          Boa KAA RU Today, 15:55 ↑ New
          100-thousandth, with 4 catapults, electric propulsion and other bells and whistles today - we can not.

          Greetings to Alexander. The fact that now we are not able to do everything is not an argument. India never built, China knew nothing. We have a base, there is a reserve. There will be a team, they will do everything: both catapults and electric propulsion. A state approach is needed.
          Secondly, there is such a thing as "political and economic expediency"
          There is such, but for some reason we have no money. Italians have:
          Cavour - (Italian Cavour (550))
          The aircraft carrier was laid down on July 17, 2001, launched on July 20, 2004, and officially transferred to the Navy on March 27, 2007. Introduced into combat readiness since June 10, 2009.
          We do not have. Where is the money Zin, tszt. request
          Whether oh! Mistral = avu "Nimitz"? Do we have an analogue of the F-35?

          Here you do not understand, I was talking about the aircraft carrier "Baku", our designers have changed his nose. An example of our design school. "Misral" is two times less - 20 thousand tons.
          From Wiki:
          "... the ship's air group was completed, which included 12 Yak-38M attack aircraft, 1-2 twin Yak-38Us, 16 Ka-27PL anti-submarine helicopters, 2 Ka-25PS search and rescue helicopters and 2 Ka-25DTs designators (later they were replaced by Ka- 27PS). "

          1. shpuntik
            shpuntik 23 November 2013 18: 45
            +3
            Major General
            Boa KAA RU Today, 15:55 ↑ New
            100-thousandth, with 4 catapults, electric propulsion and other bells and whistles today - we can not.


            Well, someone will still survive!
            Somebody? lol Five years ago I read the research, after 8 years no one will work. Young people mostly go to menagers, in the footsteps of their fathers. Those who are not being taken anywhere, or visitors from Ukraine, for example, go to fitters.

            ... today the average age of an industry employee is 49 years,
            http://www.m-osk.ru/8.html

            Our technology of the 20th century has long been hopelessly outdated. Shipbuilders themselves admit this. (Expensive, long, costly).

            I do not agree. What kind of technology? Is the electrode holder not modern? By the way, our welding is the best in the world. It was not in vain that the Americans were ordering platforms at the NEA in Nakhodka. Sniffed out all went.
            In terms of time, a fresh example with half of Mistral's "sleepy cuckoo": done on time. Another point is tyrannie money. For example: according to the papers in the shop there are new machines, but only the management of the shop knows about it. That's the whole upgrade.
            So old people do not particularly believe in computer technology. (how can one believe that one does not fully understand!)

            Well, after 40, learning at a loss crying , but here at the Admiral, for example, they worked on CAD systems five years ago, mastered nothing — pipe production systems in isometry are drawn, nothing is really complicated: our fitters didn’t see that. One order was made, the second only formed the body, and a 60-year-old alcoholic has already completed half the pipes to the system. He goes into binge from idleness, and this is an isometry. yes
            On this occasion, I already wrote on our website. Do not consider it work - look koment (KAA boa constrictor of November 17, 2013 04:39 | A blow from under the water. How strong are American AUGs?)

            So I asked you about this: what did you bring the influence of the AAG in the destruction of the AUG of the enemy to? It is insignificant, as you write:
            "The data obtained showed that in the second option, the increase in the efficiency of solving the problem (in comparison with the first) will be only a few percent,"

            Now there are no questions, here we converge: priority over 949, and so on. As for aviation: one-way flight.
            PS One final question: do you think that the need for an amphibious assault helicopter carrier of the Mistral type is higher than for an anti-submarine helicopter carrier of the Khalzan type, project 1123 or the 1143 that replaced it?
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 23 November 2013 21: 04
              +1
              Quote: shpuntik
              do you think that the need for an amphibious assault helicopter carrier of the Mistral type is higher than for the anti-submarine helicopter carrier of the Khalzan type, project 1123 or the 1143 that replaced it?

              "The question, of course, is an interesting one!" (C)
              A bit of history... pr 1123 - anti-submarine cruiser, pr 1143 - (insertion board on the platform of the right ladder) "anti-submarine cruiser with aircraft weapons", then "heavy aircraft carrying cruiser", Mistral - (maiden name) landing helicopter carrier, after additional equipment will be (?) aircraft carrier ...
              total: All ships were used as fleet control centers, communication centers, carried aircraft, could land troops by helicopter, and were the core of ship groups.
              Whether the Mistral is better than our aircraft-carrying ships - I don't know. But for sure: we cannot build such a ship in 3 years now. Therefore, we bought the Mistral and will bring it to the state of a normal warship, "capable of standing up for itself." Plus new technologies for the production of thermal imagers. It will be used as a flagship of the formation, capable of landing an MP battalion on an unequipped coast by helicopters (over-the-horizon landing). This issue is especially relevant today for the Far East. Therefore, I do not blame the RF Ministry of Defense for this decision. Time trouble, however! Therefore, we agreed to complete the construction of the "Ukraine" for our fleet. In September 2013, Russia agreed to purchase "Ukraine" for 1 billion rubles. Their corps, our weapons. So it is with Mistral. IMHO.
              1. shpuntik
                shpuntik 24 November 2013 03: 24
                +2
                KAA boa RU Yesterday, 21:04 ↑ New
                Mistral - (maiden name) landing helicopter carrier, after retrofitting will be (?) An aircraft carrier ...

                What are the planes on the Mistral? For the first time I hear ... A little lame.
                general: All ships were used as fleet control centers, communication centers, carried aircraft, could land troops by helicopter, and were the core of ship groups.

                And the CPU? It can be moved from one ship to another.
                We are talking about the purpose of the ships. "Aircraft carriers" 1143, without aircraft GDP-conventional helicopter carriers, one of the configuration options. But he can: find the submarine and destroy it, use the "Granite" on the AUG and destroy it. Anti-submarine warfare has been pushed back from discussion for today, we are blinded without Project 1143.
                On the Mistral: an over-the-horizon landing by helicopters, in wartime, on an unequipped coast, is a great idea, constantly circulated by the media.
                But ... an unequipped coast does not mean unguarded. A platoon of fighters with a "Needle" and a large-caliber machine gun will nullify the attempt of such a landing. Moreover, as "Mistral" runs less than 20 knots.
                The second option: the same landing against the aborigines in today's peacetime. It is much simpler than the BDK, as it was in the Union.

                But do you have to talk today about the landing, special operations? Obviously not. But the approach of submarines with winged ones to the coast is a must to keep an eye on. This is what I wanted to say.
                I agree about time trouble. Buying a cheap "Ukraine" is good.
                But the point is not in time trouble, in my opinion. The fact is that Mistral, like SuperJet, plays the role of a Trojan horse for our industry.
                At first they spoke of the "SJet" as a Russian victory, a new plane, but they were silent about its 80% foreign filling.
                Take a look, if not difficult, my recent post with a video about "Superjet". There he is called a "cuckoo", which is also rightly noted.
                1. Boa kaa
                  Boa kaa 24 November 2013 13: 08
                  +1
                  Good afternoon, Roman.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  What are the planes on the Mistral? Hear it for the first time..

                  The concept "Aircraft carrier" includes the placement on it: aircraft (normal or vertical takeoff), helicopters, UAVs. By which of these criteria cannot the Mistral be called an aircraft-carrying ship? At least helicopters and UAVs will be on it.
                  Another thing is that aircraft carriers are divided into aircraft carriers, helicopter carriers, ships of group and single-based aircraft, permanent and temporary based, etc.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  "Aircraft carriers" 1143, without aircraft GDP-conventional helicopter carriers, one of the configuration options.

                  Roman, when you want to argue, you need to be extremely precise in the wording ... If you transport furniture on a dump truck, it does not cease to be a dump truck. So it is here. Nimitz can also be "loaded" by the Sea Kings, but from this he will not cease to be an aircraft carrier.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  The anti-submarine warfare is pushed back from discussion today, we were blinded without the prospect of 1143.

                  The tasks of the PLO in today's fleet are mainly assigned to the PLA. With the expansion of SSBN patrol areas, the removal of ICBM launch lines from our borders, the role of ships like the 1143 decreased. But in the place of SSBNs came submarines with a CRBD on board. But there were no ship forces for the operative opening of the underwater situation. So here you are absolutely right.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  he can: ... use Granite on AUG and destroy it.

                  Maybe someone argues. But it may not reach the launch line of the CD. "By the tactical standards of the US Navy, the range of the oncoming engagement of aircraft carriers is 700 - 1100 km, although during the exercises conducted, the destruction of the alleged enemy - the Russian heavy aircraft carrier Kuznetsov, the ability to strike a Russian ship with carrier-based aircraft from a range of 1600-1700 was successfully demonstrated. km ".
                  http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren/aviano_3.htm
                  So you might not get "Granite". It's a pity.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  unequipped coast does not mean unguarded.

                  And also does not mean that he was not plowed by aviation, artillery, that the landing detachment would not have fire support helicopters, etc. These are questions of tactics and combat use, so there is no need to fantasize and climb into the jungle of the Navy operation for landing an airborne assault.
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  This is what I wanted to say.

                  Roman, therefore, I ask you to clearly and unequivocally express your thoughts when you express them to your opponent. And who meant what and wanted to say - this is from the realm of the possible.
                  In any case, it is interesting to talk with you.
                  PS. To the question of rkkSN in the fight against AVU. I, out of old habit, thought that the conversation was about Fleet OPERATIONS, in which one of the elements is an SLBM strike at AVU basing points. Well, now it will be possible to punish the Yankees in a nuclear-free version.
                  1. shpuntik
                    shpuntik 24 November 2013 22: 43
                    +1
                    Major General
                    Boa KAA RU Today, 13:08 ↑
                    Good afternoon, Roman.
                    Roman, when you want to argue, you need to be extremely precise in the wording ...

                    Who is against? TAKR is a heavy aircraft carrier, the Mistral is a helicopter carrier, and you called it an aircraft carrier. If you did not understand me when I meant TAKR:
                    "Quote: shpuntik
                    from the 40 thousandth helicopter carrier (in fact), they made an almost full-fledged aircraft carrier,
                    Whether oh! Mistral = avu "Nimitz"? "
                    , then this is not a reason to disclose so broadly the concept of "aircraft carrier". request There were also submarine carriers, now the field appeared — launching an UAV from a hand. Let us stick to traditional terminology, we will not Jesuit. smile
                    , the possibility of a strike by carrier-based aircraft against a Russian ship from a distance of 1600-1700 km was successfully demonstrated. "

                    We won't let go of it alone: ​​a pair of 1134-BODs with "Fort".
                    1. Boa kaa
                      Boa kaa 24 November 2013 23: 19
                      +1
                      Quote: shpuntik
                      then this is not a reason to disclose so broadly the concept of "aircraft carrier"

                      I am what! But how the scientific community will look at it, writing all sorts of smart books for the ignorant!
                      "Aircraft carrier - a surface combat ship that includes aircraft (including vertical take-off) or helicopters as part of its armament. An aircraft carrier has equipment for controlling their flight and landing, a hangar, a take-off and landing (flight) deck or platform, as well as technical means for maintenance. The concept of aircraft carrier ship includes ships from a multi-purpose aircraft carrier to anti-submarine ships on board at least one helicopter.
                      EdwART Explanatory Naval Dictionary, 2010 http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/sea/11254/
                      Quote: shpuntik
                      Let us stick to traditional terminology, we will not Jesuit.

                      Thats exactly what I mean! All concepts are defined (unambiguously!) In the military documents of the Navy - for the military (like me), in encyclopedias and dictionaries (encyclopedic, explanatory, foreign words, phraseological and still a heap of heaps!) - for the civilian population, to which, apparently YOU belong. So use the wealth of knowledge concentrated in these primers! And then we will communicate with you on the same conceptual field, using definitions legalized in science.
                      Well, in general, somehow, sir.
                      1. shpuntik
                        shpuntik 25 November 2013 00: 05
                        +1
                        Boa KAA RU Today, 23:19 ↑ New
                        So use the wealth of knowledge concentrated in these primers!

                        Well, and what primer will explain this:
                        "Quote: shpuntik
                        from the 40 thousandth helicopter carrier (in fact), they made an almost full-fledged aircraft carrier,
                        Whether oh! Mistral = avu "Nimitz"? "
                        "In fact" means that Project 1143 without the Yak-38, Yak-141, which are the same "as if not affordable."
                        Who can argue? I said, too broad a concept. Let's be more specific: the aircraft carrier is an aircraft-carrying cruiser, the Mistral is a helicopter carrier, not an aircraft-carrying ferry.
                        The concept of aircraft carrier includes ships from a multi-purpose aircraft carrier to anti-submarine ships with at least one helicopter on board.
                      2. shpuntik
                        shpuntik 25 November 2013 00: 46
                        0
                        Boa KAA RU Yesterday, 23:19 ↑
                        And then we will communicate with you on the same conceptual field, using definitions legalized in science.
                        Well, in general, somehow, sir.

                        Alexander hi
                        As for general definitions, I do not mind, but this phrase confused me:
                        Mistral - (maiden name) landing helicopter carrier, after retrofitting will be (?) An aircraft carrier ...

                        In the light of our dialogue, I correctly understood what you mean by the word "retrofitting" - UAV? There are two questions: 1) It is less expensive than making a catapult for AB. 2) Will he build a bunch of helicopters on the Mistral's deck one day, given its size?
                        Drone flight is an exciting event, in itself, even without a task. smile There is no question.
        2. Rus2012
          Rus2012 24 November 2013 15: 23
          +1
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          Whether oh! Mistral = avu "Nimitz"

          And the fate and "combat" history of "Charles de Gaulle" is not very inspiring: one conditionally successful "combat" campaign for a 19-year track record, of which more than half are undergoing repairs ...
      2. varov14
        varov14 23 November 2013 19: 26
        +1
        We need to look for an asymmetric answer, more effective and less costly, and it exists.
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 23 November 2013 16: 07
      0
      Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
      In the meantime, salvation in the rkkSN and plRK, possibly anti-ship ICBMs.

      Strategic missile submarine missile submarine cruiser. It has on board missile weapons with nuclear warheads designed for a retaliatory nuclear strike on the territory of the aggressor. The SSBN is not a multi-purpose submarine. It is a combat unit of the marine component of the nuclear triad. yes
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 23 November 2013 19: 10
        +1
        Quote: GSH-18
        Strategic missile submarine missile submarine cruiser. It has on board missile weapons with nuclear warheads designed for a retaliatory nuclear strike on the territory of the aggressor.

        Thanks for the enlightenment! And then I think (since 1973!) Why do we need them? Well, but seriously. Alternatively, it can be loaded with an analogue of our R-31 or R-27, the use of which at one time was considered as an anti-aircraft carrier ICBM. On a new technical basis, but with maneuvering BB, it can be very much. Colleague Ascetic perfectly covered this topic in his commentary, in my opinion from 17.11. In addition, one should not forget about pr 667at (pregnant cat), plans for arming 667 bd with 4 kr combat modules in a mine (analogue of Ohio non-strategic). Not many people know that the General Staff of the Navy intended (by order of the General Staff) to reserve 2 silos at 941p for launching the AES-r. During the restoration of the orbital constellation, after the "Iron Broom". Can remember the idea with the RPKPRO, what else to tell?
        1. GSH-18
          GSH-18 24 November 2013 09: 59
          +2
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          Thank you for enlightening! And then I think (since 1973!) Why do we need them?

          I’m not sure, dear Kaa, that a specialized strategic submarine carrier for sea-based nuclear missiles, if desired, in the blink of an eye can become a multi-purpose nuclear submarine, for example, a sea hunter ... For me, it's like a Tu-160 imprisoned in close air combat with a large enemy. And it's not just about the capabilities of weapons. Remains management, TSU ..
          1. Rus2012
            Rus2012 24 November 2013 15: 36
            0
            Quote: GSH-18
            Not sure, dear Kaa, that a specialized strategic submarine carrier for sea-based nuclear missiles


            Prospect 667b Submarine of the Murena project (a series of Soviet SSBNs - nuclear submarines), including the one planned under the ballistic anti-ship missile BPCR R-33 (D-13)
            http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nbrs/667B/list.htm
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 November 2013 18: 31
            +1
            Quote: GSH-18
            a specialized strategic underwater carrier of sea-based nuclear missiles, if desired, in the blink of an eye can become a multi-purpose nuclear submarine, for example, a sea hunter ..

            1. RpkSN can load 02 SLBMs against AVU (new R-33, let's say). Being in the ZRBD, on continuous SDV (ZPS, KS, KV) -link to receive in real time from Liana TsU via AUG. When generating data for firing (so that the SCWO "SLBM-anti avu" is less than equal to the ellipse of the probable location of the AVU during the data aging period), you can attack the AUG until it reaches the AB rise line. Then vigorously dump from the area in order to get out of the attack of the BR (PLO) amers.
            2. Rpk CH can be used on board the TO (possibly KR), these cases are described in the TRPL, or by the decision of the commander when breaking away from the PLC, attacking another submarine, hitting a naval base, etc. At the same time, the RPKSN is still a "strategist".
            3. There is no such thing now as "sea hunter". This is from the history of the WWII, where the USSR Navy was armed with anti-submarine boats - "small hunters for submarines" (such as MO-2 and MO-4).
            1. shpuntik
              shpuntik 24 November 2013 22: 21
              +1
              Major General
              Boa KAA RU Today, 18:31 ↑
              1. RpkSN can load 02 SLBMs against AVU (new R-33, suppose).

              Alexander, you forgot to add that the BR PK with a nuclear warhead. And where does the construction of our aircraft carrier ??!
              And I will tell you, "moreover": you fiddled with an ambiguous comment:
              Boa KAA RU Yesterday, 11:21
              , GS-18 spoke rightly about the SSGN, and you began to talk about the capabilities of the SSGN in a nuclear conflict. what
              In your opinion, it turns out that troughs like Mistral are needed, but the aircraft carrier is not. Why then "Mistral", if there is a SSGN ??!
              You piled something too much, don’t you?
              PS And why fall asleep? request
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 25 November 2013 01: 13
                +1
                Quote: shpuntik
                And why fall asleep?

                Roma, the abbreviation is clear to everyone who is in the subject, but in 2's, it reduces time, saves space on the site.
                Quote: shpuntik
                and you started to talk about the capabilities of SSGN in a nuclear conflict

                Once again I looked at the comments from 24.11, 11: 21, and something I did not find there my reasoning about PLARK. You obviously mixed up something, maybe, having looked at all my comments on this thread, I didn’t find any reasoning about PLRK. About rpkSN - I repent, it was, maybe involved, but I didn’t stutter about the winged. And did not mention the nuclear conflict. About the operation of the fleet - he spoke, but only to clarify his phrase about the hope of strategists. Without a second thought.
                1. shpuntik
                  shpuntik 25 November 2013 01: 36
                  +1
                  Boa KAA RU Today, 01:13 ↑ New

                  Here I am not accurate-rpkSN. Here: not about 885 etc. speech?
                  PS. To the question of rkkSN in the fight against AVU. I, according to an old habit, thought that the conversation was about OPERATION of the fleet, in which one of the elements is an SLBM strike at AVU basing points. Well, now there will be an opportunity in a nuclear-free version punish the yankees.
    3. pr 627
      pr 627 23 November 2013 17: 05
      +1
      Forgot about marine missile-carrying aircraft and BRAV.
    4. Rus2012
      Rus2012 24 November 2013 15: 18
      +2
      Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
      possibly anti-ship ICBMs.

      most likely, as the most developed and ready for implementation ...
      I wrote here -
      http://topwar.ru/36200-protivokorabelnye-ballisticheskie-rakety-dalnego-deystviy
      a.html
      Anti-ship ballistic missiles long-range
      As you can see, at the end of the USSR 70x had the technology of "long arm" against aircraft carrier connections.
      At the same time, it is not even important that not all the components of this system: airborne target designation and ballistic anti-ship missiles - BKRP were fully deployed. The main thing is that the principle has been developed and the technology has been developed.
      It remains for us to repeat the existing groundwork at the modern level of science, technology, materials and components, to bring to perfection, and in sufficient quantities to deploy the necessary missile systems and reconnaissance and target designation systems based on the space component and the over-the-horizon radar. However, many of them are not required. Only with the prospect of less than 20 rocket kits (according to the number of AUG in the world), taking into account the guarantee and duplication of attacks - 40 complexes. This is just one missile division of the Soviet era. It is desirable, of course, to deploy in three forms: mobile - on a submarine, PGRK (based on Pioneer-Topol) and a mine version based on a new heavy rocket or the same stationary landlords in coastal areas.
      And then, as they would say, opponents of AUG - it would be an aspen (tungsten, depleted uranium or nuclear) stake in the heart of aircraft carriers.
      In any case, it would be an asymmetric response and a real threat, forever attributing AUGI to the shore.
  5. alone
    alone 23 November 2013 11: 51
    +3
    Upgrading a ready-made aircraft carrier does not mean that you can build a new one. Here the Americans are building an aircraft carrier, the cost with an air group exceeds 32 billion dollars. Multiply this amount by the ruble exchange rate. Almost 33 rubles. We get 1 trillion rubles. In the current situation, it looks unrealistic. hi
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 23 November 2013 17: 18
      -1
      Quote: lonely
      Americans are building an aircraft carrier, the cost with an air group exceeds 32 billion dollars

      Where did you read such nonsense then?
      1. alone
        alone 23 November 2013 21: 15
        -1
        For comparison, the construction of the American head supersurveyor of the new generation "Gerald R. Ford" is estimated at $ 12,3 billion, of which $ 3,3 billion is spent on research and development. It was recently announced that the ship was ready for 70%, but the cost of building the aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford had already exceeded the planned one for 22%. The cost of the air group based on Gerald R. Ford, basically consisting of X-Numx-generation F-5 airplanes, will be almost $ 35 billion. In total, more than $ 10 billion is obtained (32)


        All this "nonsense" is written in the article. Was it really difficult to read the whole article? and if you are sure that this is nonsense, then the claims are only to the author! hi
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 24 November 2013 10: 35
      -2
      Quote: lonely
      Upgrading a ready-made aircraft carrier does not mean that you can build a new one. Here the Americans are building an aircraft carrier, the cost with an air group exceeds 32 billion dollars. Multiply this amount by the ruble exchange rate. Almost 33 rubles. We get 1 trillion rubles. In the current situation, it looks unrealistic. hi

      The fact is that the Russian aircraft carriers are not needed just to be. Carrier formations actively influence the positive development of foreign policy, and therefore the real income of the state. This is the main purpose of the AUG in peacetime. Conventional ship formations are not suitable for this.
      1. alone
        alone 24 November 2013 10: 42
        0
        Quote: GSH-18
        The fact is that the Russian aircraft carriers are not needed just to be. Carrier formations actively influence the positive development of foreign policy, and therefore the real income of the state. This is the main purpose of the AUG in peacetime. Conventional ship formations are not suitable for this.


        what Russia needs to solve for Russia, and not for me. I just suggested that with such a budget deficit, the government has not yet decided to spend it. can go sideways. And yet, build an aircraft carrier is still half the battle. protection. in the current state of the ships this is unrealistic. ships an average of 30 years. need new
  6. Ppsh
    Ppsh 23 November 2013 12: 04
    10
    - developed the project "Vikry ...",
    - brought it to life,
    - worked out flaws for other people's money,
    - created a new decked aircraft, with a training modification,
    - there is (albeit in a cropped form) AWACS system,
    - built a new thread,
    continue the logical chain of reasoning .....
    1. atalef
      atalef 23 November 2013 12: 07
      +1
      Quote: PPSh
      - developed the project "Vikry ...",
      - brought it to life,
      - worked out flaws for other people's money,
      - created a new decked aircraft, with a training modification,
      - there is (albeit in a cropped form) AWACS system,
      - built a new thread,
      continue the logical chain of reasoning

      Yes then why
      Russia has no need to create aircraft carriers, this is a matter of geopolitics, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told reporters after the ceremony of handing over the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to the Indian side.


      laughing
      Now continue from this place hi
      1. PLO
        PLO 23 November 2013 13: 36
        +2
        Now continue from this place

        because right now there is really no need to create a new aircraft carrier, there is a need for deep modernization of Kuznetsov in order to turn him completely into a battle-worthy ship.
      2. MstislavHrabr
        MstislavHrabr 23 November 2013 14: 44
        +1
        I think we can count on the fact that a shipyard in the Far East, declared so far as a civil one (for the construction of tankers and gas carriers), for the construction of which they want to attract South Korean capital and technology, can also be used to build large ships for the Navy ... As they say : "We'll wait!"
      3. Ppsh
        Ppsh 23 November 2013 19: 22
        0
        "Read the rebuttals!" ....
      4. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 23 November 2013 19: 25
        +2
        Quote: atalef
        Russia has no need to create aircraft carriers, this is a matter of geopolitics, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told reporters after the ceremony of handing over the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier to the Indian side.
        Now continue from this place

        I'll try. The thing is that Dmitry Olegovich talks faster than he thinks - a professional habit. And to be honest: we will not build until we rivet the SSBNs, for political reasons it cannot. So you have to blame the grapes: "they say it is green and it is not needed until it ripens" (Krylov "Fox and Grapes").
        1. typhoon7
          typhoon7 23 November 2013 21: 39
          0
          Golden words, and most importantly accurate.
    2. not good
      not good 23 November 2013 12: 43
      +5
      In the absence of a clear naval doctrine in Russia, and the current of long-term strategic planning, it is problematic to continue the logical chain of reasoning.
    3. pr 627
      pr 627 23 November 2013 17: 12
      +1
      The women have not yet given birth, and the vocational schools have not released new shipwreckers, ship pipelines, locksmiths, electricians, instrumentation and automated control system specialists. When they give birth and they will teach us happiness.
  7. shpuntik
    shpuntik 23 November 2013 12: 19
    +6
    Firstly, it is necessary, in fact, to re-create the design bureau of large surface ships in St. Petersburg.

    It's not a problem. The problem will be to find constructors after 2021, this will be a problem. The present ones, even though the Soviet era, were caught, crawled by order, communicated with hard workers. And those who later come from the institute, for the first three years it is necessary to follow them so that they do not hit their heads or fall into the neck in place of their "drawings".
    Boathouse, yes, it will require money. But then it will be enough for a long time, there will be a whole direction in the industry, high-tech.

    The Sevmash will also have to deepen the basin where the ships descend and expand the existing bathoport.

    That they have stuck to Sevmash, there is little space in Russia? There is a place, for example, where winters are lighter and hot in summer: Bolshoy Kamen, Vladivostok. The plant is under construction now, up to 350 thousand tons of the tanker will be lowered - the place is excellent, only the commanders-in-chief change too often. Vysotsky would be pulled out of the dacha, let him tell what the matter is, what he was talking about.

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/20391/
  8. moremansf
    moremansf 23 November 2013 12: 51
    +5
    It's easy to destroy, it's more difficult to create ... it's really not a yacht for Abramovich to build ... it's no secret that shipbuilding in the country has fallen into decay, thanks to the far-sighted policy of individual leaders to please our "partners" ... now all that remains is to debate. .. there is a problem of building ships of this class and it cannot be solved right away ... let's believe that the military shipbuilding in the country will soon be properly adjusted !!!
  9. moremansf
    moremansf 23 November 2013 13: 39
    +3
    In addition to everything, we completely lack the infrastructure for the maintenance of ships of this class. The experience of operating TAVK pr 1143 (Kiev, Minsk, Novorossiysk, Gorshkov) showed that parking in the roads in the absence of a quay wall significantly "knocks out" the service life of the ship's mechanisms, which significantly reduces its service life. This was one of the main reasons for the sale of the Gorshkov to India. The berth in Vidyaevo, built for Kuznetsov, also did not ensure the normal operation of the cruiser, the separation from the fleet's repair base and remoteness from support points significantly affected its technical condition, as a result of which it was transferred to Murmansk on SRZ-35, which for many years has been its home base. Today we do not have such basing points that could fully provide the basing of aircraft carriers. Before starting the construction of AB, it is necessary to create a specialized infrastructure in order for these ships to serve the entire prescribed period.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 23 November 2013 19: 39
      +3
      Quote: moremansf
      The operating experience of TAVK pr 1143 (Kiev, Minsk, Novorossiysk, Gorshkov) showed ...

      Yes, with the coastal infrastructure in the Northern Fleet in 1976-85 there were "seams". Kiev spilled its entire time on the second cruising barrels in Vaenga Bay. From which he was torn off, where he knocked out his motor resource, instead of serving further to the Fatherland.
      Thank God, the fleet command was smart enough to plan a battlefield in such a way that TAKR spent the polar night on a BS in Middle-earth. That was why they escaped from frost and darkness, giving pilots the opportunity to fly and improve their flying skills.
  10. Cherdak
    Cherdak 23 November 2013 13: 46
    +4
    Quote: moremansf
    military shipbuilding in the country will soon be adjusted properly !!!


    If only the crisis did not cover
    1. goldfinger
      goldfinger 23 November 2013 22: 03
      -3
      Quote: Cherdak
      If only the crisis did not cover

      Don't watch so much anime. Get very overexcited. Russia is a land country. All of her naval victories were in the 18th and early 19th centuries. In the fight against the Turks (found sailors). Name the victories later. I do not mean single battles of individual ships. For example "Mercury". Although it's the same with the Turks.
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 23 November 2013 23: 19
      +1
      Quote: Cherdak
      If only the crisis did not cover

      Is this what Severstal and Arkhangelsk modernized?
  11. Peaceful military
    Peaceful military 23 November 2013 14: 51
    +2
    I am not an expert, but I do not see any prospects for the construction of aircraft carriers in Russia, if only to build them "from a lantern", in order to build them. After all, it is obvious that it is good that everything, at once, the most modern, in large quantities, and that there is an inexhaustible sea of ​​money after that. Alas!
    They rushed to try to produce and build a lot and for a huge amount and ... And this is without aircraft carriers. And also infrastructure, specialists, etc.
  12. moremansf
    moremansf 23 November 2013 14: 53
    +1
    Quote: Cherdak
    If only the crisis did not cover

    The main thing is that there should be no more Serdyukov and others like him !!!
  13. Russ69
    Russ69 23 November 2013 15: 09
    +1
    The aircraft carrier, of course, is cool, but it is too expensive, for us now. In addition to the aircraft carrier, you need to wish everything from scratch, from the shipyard to the parking lot.
  14. avg
    avg 23 November 2013 15: 13
    +5
    Behind the crash of broken copies about the future of virtual aircraft carriers, for some reason, the Soviet experience in building and operating TAKR and vertical take-off and landing aircraft is completely forgotten.
    And in this area we were "ahead of the rest." And if the first Yak-38 was called the “top mast defense aircraft”, then the latest modifications were already full-fledged attack aircraft, and the Yak-141 was already a plane of a completely different level, and a great future was prophesied to it. No wonder the creators of the F-35 with such diligence studied the entire materiel and documentation for the 141st. I think that the experience we still have in creating VTOL can be used already at a new level of technological development, and benefit not only carrier-based aircraft.
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 24 November 2013 15: 54
      +1
      Quote: avg
      and the Yak-141 was already a plane of a completely different level, and he was prophesied a great future.


      Yak-141 (internal designation: product 48 / 48М, according to NATO codification: Freestyle, from the English “freestyle”) - multi-purpose supersonic all-weather [9] deck aircraft for vertical / short take-off and landing (SV / KVP) developed by Yakovlev Design Bureau. He became the third in the world of VTOL (after EWR VJ 101 and Dassault Mirage IIIV), overcoming the speed of sound. It was intended to provide cover for aircraft carrier formations from enemy aircraft, to conquer and maintain air supremacy, to conduct close maneuvering and long-range combat, as well as to strike at ground and surface targets.

      TTX
      Weight:
      Empty: 11 650 kg
      maximum take-off weight:
      when running 120 m: 19 500 kg
      vertical take-off: 15 800 kg
      fuel mass, inside: 4400 kg

      Lifting engine RD-41
      type: single-loop turbofan with thrust vector control
      number: 2
      Dry weight - 290kg, total - 580kg

      The combat load:
      at start-up 120 m: 2600 kg
      vertical take-off: 1000 kg


      Maximum speed:
      at altitude 11 km: 1800 km / h (1,5 M)
      by land: 1 250 km / h (1,05 M)
      Practical range:
      with GDP without load:
      at altitude 10 — 12 km: 1400 km
      at the ground: 650 km
      at UVP with 1 load t:
      at altitude 10 — 12 km: 2100 km
      at the ground: 1010 km
      Ceiling: 15 000 m
      Combat radius: to 900 km
      Barrage time at a distance of 100 km: 90 min
      Take-off length: 120 m (or vertical take-off)
      Maximum operating overload: 7 g

      In principle, a good plane, against classmates, is somewhat comparable with the F-35B.
      But the presence of "weights on their feet" in the form of lifts with a total weight of half a ton makes it not competitive against conventional ground fighters, as well as the F-35B
  15. moremansf
    moremansf 23 November 2013 15: 52
    0
    The United Shipbuilding Corporation Open Joint Stock Company Development Strategy for the period up to 2030, approved by the Board of Directors, is posted on the USC website in the Information Disclosure section (subsection "Internal documents of the company").

    The document contains chapters such as "Analysis of the internal and external environment", "Goals, objectives and directions of the Corporation's development", "Main activities, stages and terms of the Strategy implementation", "Action plan for the implementation of the Strategy".

    United Shipbuilding Corporation Open Joint Stock Company (hereinafter - the Corporation) was established in 2007 by the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation. The structure of the Corporation was formed by 2009. One hundred percent of the Corporation's shares belong to the Russian Federation.

    The corporation has a key role in domestic shipbuilding. Currently, the Corporation has integrated 66 organizations operating in the field of shipbuilding (1 appendix). In fact, the Corporation is now a monopolist in the industry, especially in the class of ships from 7 thousand tons of deadweight and more. At the same time, the Corporation is experiencing serious difficulties in carrying out its activities.

    In particular, in recent years, the activities of the main enterprises of OJSC "OSK" are planned and unprofitable. Particularly difficult situation with the enterprises involved in the implementation of the state defense order "- noted in the" Strategy ".
    This is an official document. So what else to work and work on this topic !!!!
  16. aleksandr1959
    aleksandr1959 23 November 2013 16: 00
    +2
    Quote: lonely
    that the transfer of Soviet aircraft carrier naval technologies by India to Russia allowed New Delhi to overtake its neighbor and main rival in the region in the race of aircraft-bearing naval weapons.

    You forgot about the odds. 1 to 2.T. n. "Serdyukov style margin"
  17. pr 627
    pr 627 23 November 2013 17: 18
    +3
    More or less objective article recently on the topic of domestic AB.
  18. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 23 November 2013 17: 55
    +3
    The time will come when Russia will build aircraft carriers. In the meantime, alternative countermeasures should be developed against the aircraft carrier formations of a potential enemy, the United States and NATO.
  19. typhoon7
    typhoon7 23 November 2013 21: 56
    +2
    Welcome all! I would like to hope that at least with the construction of new submarines we will have everything in order, and destroyers need new ones. We really need an ocean fleet. The author plus, the topic is very serious and painful.
    1. AZB15
      AZB15 24 November 2013 03: 59
      -3
      Can i ask you?
      And pumping us the ocean fleet? Where and why to ocean. Only in this way, seriously, without a forum fuse and a rally.
      Author minus with a huge minus, why? At the beginning of the discussion, he wrote that there are hundreds of millions of such articles with material collected from various publications and inserted without any changes!
  20. coserg 2012
    coserg 2012 23 November 2013 22: 18
    0
    It seems to me that Rogozin cannot know what the GDP is in his thoughts. He does what they say to him, and that is good.
  21. shurup
    shurup 24 November 2013 00: 17
    0
    It seems to me that some kind of international division of labor is pecking.
    Russia builds nuclear submarines, nuclear power plants and airplanes, while India builds complete aircraft carriers.
    Further, the Anglo-Saxons are indignant, but they cannot get into the Kalash line.
  22. dizelniy
    dizelniy 24 November 2013 10: 47
    0
    Not a single private problem will be resolved until we adopt the concept of a country's development in the center of which will be a person with his problems and opportunities, based on traditionalism and assessing the contribution of everyone to the common cause on the basis of the suffering principle. Read BOB.
  23. rubin6286
    rubin6286 24 November 2013 11: 16
    +1
    Quote: Drop
    Work for our defense industry enterprises will be interesting. Thank God that scientists and specialists who still understand how to solve these problems have survived.


    Today, the country does not need aircraft carriers. It is possible that there are still scientists and specialists, but there are no modern shipyards and equipment for them, a number of unique technologies have been lost, there are no related enterprises, and there are not just skilled workers. and workers in general. One can still list for a long time how deplorable things are, in a word, there is nothing for the construction of aircraft carriers now.
    I sympathize with you, all my life I worked for the good of our great Motherland. and now she is gone.
  24. Cosmos-1869
    Cosmos-1869 24 November 2013 13: 01
    +1
    To carry out "Industrialization 2.0", to revive the military-industrial complex and preserve the continuity of generations, the country needs BIG projects. Such as the atomic project, like Space, like air defense and missile defense systems, like Tu-160, like "Buran", etc.
    Yes, expensive, yes, for a long time, but we still live on a backlog created in the years 30-40-60-70-80.
    The country needs managers at the level of Beria, Malyshev, Korolev, Tupolev, Ustinov and many others, the listing of which would take two pages here. Such managers are formed only on BIG projects.
    Just this time, let's carry out Industrialization 2.0 without tents, without camps, without dirt, without mats, without commissar guns.
    Let's restore the scientific and technical potential of the country, but we will do it not at the expense of people, but FOR people.
    Threat. And the Nikolaev shipyards, Dnepropetrovsk missiles, Kharkov tanks, Zaporizhzhya radio systems, Sevastopol bays, it seems, will be available to Russia very soon fellow
  25. mithridate
    mithridate 24 November 2013 14: 33
    0
    Yes, how much can you procrastinate this topic?
  26. Alexander K.
    Alexander K. 24 November 2013 19: 25
    0
    Quote: BoA KAA
    "... three key systems, without which Gerald Ford, in general, is simply not functional, today they simply do not exist in nature. And it is difficult to say when they will appear. We are talking about a dual-band radar system (DBR - Dual-Band Radar), electromagnetic catapults (EMALS - Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) and turbo-electric landing system (AAG - Advanced Arresting Gear). All three systems are in the prototype stage. " Without them, the aircraft carrier for 10 years will be a heap of iron afloat, at the outfitting wall of the plant. http://warfiles.ru/show-42467 http://warfiles.ru/user/dilanst/


    The quote is uninformative - strictly speaking, all systems on the lead ship (except for the serial ones borrowed from previous projects) are at the "prototype stage" because the prototype goes into the serial stage only after the end of the MVI (GI) of the ship.
    OCD (and all midrange OCD) end with the successful completion of the MVI (GI) facility.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 24 November 2013 20: 58
      +1
      Quote: Alexander K.
      The quote is not informative - strictly speaking,

      My teacher and mentor, when I said that I could not find material on the project, used to say: "Sir, you are lazy and not inquisitive!" I hope this does not apply to you. Therefore, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the link in more detail:
      http://warfiles.ru/show-42467-v-ssha-s-pompoy-spuschen-na-vodu-novyy-avianosec-k
      otoryy-okazalsya-pustyshkoy.html.
      If this does not satisfy you, then, rightly, I don’t know what to advise you!
  27. Sirs
    Sirs 25 November 2013 03: 21
    0
    Here he is a locomotive of military thought and industrial production, because you only have to think how many new engineers - designers, technologists, programmers, metallurgists, etc. and specialists as needed are locksmith, welders, etc. This is what the anti-crisis program is for.
  28. AZB15
    AZB15 25 November 2013 03: 25
    -1
    [quote = shpuntik][i] [quote] AZB15 RU Today, 07: 18 ↑ New
    I can only tell you that if you start building a house, and then start thinking that to stuff into that house in terms of filling and communications is what will happen to the house.
    [/ Quote]
    Well, okay. So first you call the stove-maker, he puts the stove with the pipe, and then you dance from it? Surely not so, provide a hole in the roof under the pipe, and then lay the stove.

    ????????????????????? HZ, what did you mean. A hole stove, deck cutting, we put a catapult .... Let's round it out.