Military Review

Kazan tragedy: figures, facts, versions

160
At 19:25 on November 17, a passenger plane of the Tatarstan Airlines crashed at the airport of Kazan. As a result aviation the catastrophe killed everyone who was on board a Boeing 737-500 plane that was flying from Moscow to the capital of Tatarstan, which is 6 crew members and 44 passengers (full list at the end of the article).




Boeing 737-500 with the hull number VQ-BBN for the first time rose in the sky 18 June 1990 year in France. The owner of the aircraft then became the French company «Euralair Horizons». Two years later, the plane was acquired by the company "Air France", which operated the aircraft for about three years. When, according to the management of the airline, Boeing finally turned into a "second-hand board", it was sold to Uganda. Here, after five years of flying in Europe, the liner was used by Uganda Airlines. It would seem that after using the aircraft on Ugandan airlines should have been the completion of the "career" of Boeing. However, Uganda Airlines also decided to make money on a fairly second-hand plane, and after five years of intensive operation, sold it to Brazilian airline Rio Sul. Another five years of flying - and again resale ... This time the Romanians decided to replenish their fleet with this very plane - Blue Air. However, in Romania, the plane did not go to the “well-deserved rest”, but was sold to the Bulgarian airline “Bulgaria Air”. And only after that Boeing 737-500 was in Russia. In 2008, the same Tatarstan company bought it from the Bulgarian side, by which this ill-fated board was used for five years (until the moment of the tragedy).

So, if you draw a chain of countries that exploited this aircraft for 23 years, it looks like this: France-Uganda-Brazil-Romania-Bulgaria-Russia ... The chain indirectly hints at what country they were going to infinitely profit from technology , which, if not to be put under the knife, should be at least overhaul.

It is noteworthy that the Boeing used in the airline "Tatarstan" already gave signals that its resource is not unlimited. One of the serious signals was received last year (November 26 2012 of the year) - depressurization sensors were activated. The pilots of the aircraft flying from Kazan to Moscow Domodedovo Airport, decided to return back, the landing was successful. True, there is no information about what ended the verification of last year’s incident with Tatarstan’s Boeing 737-500 airline ... There is only a comment from the head of the airline:

The malfunction that caused the depressurization was eliminated in normal mode.


There is evidence that this aircraft clearly needed overhaul from those passengers who themselves had recently flown on a Boeing. A considerable number of such evidence was published in social networks. On his page on VKontakte interesting details of the condition of the aircraft are given by Ruslan Kalimullin (Kazan city):

He flew today (17 November) by this plane from Kazan to Moscow in 15: 20, boarded Domodedovo as if the plane had a horizon stabilization system, the pilot barely leveled the ship before landing, when in contact with the ground, we were a little carried away, but the pilot coped, and I crossed myself. The fact that one of the passengers said on TV, such as when landing in Moscow, the aircraft had a strong vibration on the body, so it is on all old cars, this is observed during takeoff, the vibration goes not on the body, but on the inside lining, this is often found on airplanes that have not been restored for a long time.

Renowned not to fly on cheap flights, which this time the toad strangled me to buy a ticket not for 5 for a normal Aeroflot flight, but for this one for 3. I was not too lazy to call before buying a ticket, to clarify what kind of car this flight performs. Well, I think, since Boeing 500, everything should be fine. And when they sat down, I immediately noticed that the car was really already “tired”, and it became a little dumb ...

The result is this: People! do not save on tickets, the difference in money can cost lives.

Those who died probably had the choice to fly on another flight. I really flew plenty ...


However, employees of the airline "Tatarstan" frankly paid little attention to eyewitness accounts and information about the problems that had arisen with this plane. The material presented to the press by the official representative of the airline, means that 737 didn’t cause any technical issues. Moreover, the airline claims that the pilots who performed the ill-fated flight had a lot of experience. However, some time after such statements, the general director of Tatarstan Airlines, Aksan Giniyatullin, who, answering journalists' questions about whether the commander of that same Boeing had a go-around experience, said unexpectedly:

I think not.


In other words, the head of the airline, as it were, is not aware of what real experience the pilot had. Now, it seems, it turns out that the crew was re-approaching the landing only on the simulators ...

The same Mr. Giniyatullin noted that the Boeing 737-500 flew on November 17 instead of another aircraft of the airline - Bombardier CRJ200. It turned out that more tickets could be sold for the flight than the Bombardier can accommodate, and therefore the Boeing was “released” to the airfield ... A somewhat strange explanation, isn't it? That is, it turns out that the airline sells tickets for the flight, based not on the number of seats on the plane, but from the fact “let them buy as much as they want” ... In this case, theoretically, a situation could arise where the tickets would be sold more than seats in 737 Boeing. And then what? Would replace a military transport worker, or what? ..

Only here another question appears: what does “Bombardier cannot accommodate ...”, because the Bombardier CRJ200 is designed for 50 passengers, and the 44 ticket was sold for the flight?

Now the investigation is studying the picture of the tragedy in Kazan from the records of the negotiations of the crew members of the Boeing with the air traffic controller. At the same time, the records of negotiations are studied not by the records of the flight recorder, but by the records made in the control room. The fact is that the black boxes of the aircraft found at the scene of the tragedy are badly damaged. So much so that in one of them there is no special capsule (cassette) with audio recording. The voice recorder cassette was found on November 20 around 14: 30 Moscow time.

Representatives of the country's Investigative Committee state the following:

The content of these negotiations indicates that, in general, they were of a regular character before the pilot was informed about the non-landing position of the aircraft, that is, the disparity of the movement vector of the aircraft to the end of the runway and the departure for the second round.


After the dispatcher gave the command to the pilot to gain height in 500 meters, the pilot uttered the phrase “second round”. After a moment, the plane fell to the ground and exploded.

Kirill Kornishin (air traffic controller) in an interview with Russia-24 TV channel stated:

He (talking about the pilot - author's note) reported to me that he was going to the second round, and I gave him a set - everything is according to the documents - that's all. And he said that he has a non-stop configuration. I gave him a set, as it should be standard. He confirmed. And did not leave.


At the same time, data was obtained from the so-called parametric recorder. Representatives of the Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) on their official website stated that they investigated the information received. We provide research materials in the form in which they are published by the IAC:

In the course of the approach, the crew was not able to perform a standard approach in accordance with the scheme established by the regulatory documentation. Assessing the position of the aircraft relative to the runway as "non-stop", the crew reported to the dispatcher and began a go-around in TOGA mode (Take Off / Go Around. Take-off / Go-around). In this case, one of the two autopilots involved in the approach process was turned off and further flight was carried out in manual mode.

Engines went to a mode close to take-off. The crew removed flaps from 30 ° to 15 °.

Under the influence of the cabling moment from the thrust of the engines, the plane went into a climb and reached a pitch angle of about 25 °. The instrument speed began to decrease. The crew cleaned the chassis. Since the beginning of the go-around, until this time, the crew has not taken any active actions to control the aircraft.

After reducing the speed from 150 to 125 nodes, the crew began controlling the steering column to transfer the aircraft to a dive, which led to the cessation of climb, the beginning of a decline of the aircraft and an increase in instrumental speed. The maximum angles of attack during the flight did not exceed the operational limits.
The plane, reaching a height of 700 m, began an intensive dive with a pitch angle that reached the end of the flight -75 ° (end of recording).

The plane collided with the ground at high speed (more than 450 km / h) and a large negative pitch angle.
From the moment of the start, the go-around to the end of the recording took about 45 seconds, the decline took about 20 seconds.
Power plants worked until the collision of the aircraft with the ground. One-time commands that characterize the failures of the systems and units of the aircraft and engines, according to the results of the preliminary analysis were not identified.
The analysis and decoding of parametric information continues.


Such information leads experts to believe that the crew could "lose the ground." In other words, cloudiness and darkness could cause pilots to lose their orientation in space. However, this version is also not indisputable, as it gives food for thinking about why the pilots ignored the readings of the instruments, which clearly spoke of an active approach to the ground. As an excuse for the actions of the pilots can serve as a version of the failure of the aircraft steering wheel during a dive. The steering wheel could simply jam. But this is just a version ...

In the meantime, only one thing is clear: once again a catastrophe, again victims, again talks about the professionalism of the crew and about the attempts of airlines to earn on well-known planes at all costs. And the price of this profit today looks really scary.

For your information:

The dead pilot "Boeing-737-500" Rustem Salikhov served as captain of the aircraft for a year and a half. Most of his life 47-year-old Rustem worked as a navigator on the Tu-154 of the airline "Tatarstan". In 2008, Salikhov came under a reduction - the airlines became almost unclaimed in the Tu-154. He had retrained at St. Petersburg State University for one and a half years, then he began internship flights. At the helm of the Boeing, Rustem Salikhov first sat in the 2009 of the year, flying for four years as a co-pilot. And in March last year, became the commander of the aircraft

PS A complete list of those killed in the Boeing-737 plane crash in Kazan:

Crew:

Rustam Salikhov 11.06.1966 FAC
Gutsul Viktor Nikiforovich 12.06.1966 Second Pilot
Zarifullina Nuriya Dafiytovna 1957 Senior Flight Attendant
Garifullina Inga Rafailevna 06.02.1971 Flight Attendant
Kabanova Olga Stanislavovna 22.04.1988 Flight attendant
Khaidarov Damir Fardatovich 20.09.1987 Flight Attendant

Passengers:

Alexander Antonov 01.01.1957
Irek Minnikhanov 04.03.1989
Aliya Akhmetshina 23.07.1990
Natalya Akulinina 21.08.1987
Daria Artashina 07.09.2002
Rezeda Fazleev 12.07.1959
Diana Hajiyeva 10.05.1955
Alina Kashapova 27.06.1998
Rustam Guzhiev 27.02.1982
Yury Lyashin 12.04.1976
Olga Morozova 08.02.1960
Ruslan Nazyarov 17.09.1973
Margarita Oshurkova 22.06.1958
Roman Parkhomenko 20.02.1986
Gulnara Rashitova 15.07.1991
Diana Safiullina 09.10.1989
Victoria Schukina 01.10.1977
Ellina Skvortsova 08.06.1976
Anastasia Sterkhova 23.01.1990
Denis Vaprentsev 02.10.1984
Venus Zaripov 07.09.1988
Albina Zaripova 21.01.1980
Victoria Zgurtskaya 30.08.1969
Donna Carolina Bull 14.02.1960
Gennady Makarov 31.10.1965
Pavel Prokofiev 15.01.1974
Ayrat Sadrutdinov 16.02.1984
Nikolay Smolentsev 19.04.1964
Elena Smolentseva 29.05.1966
Yana Baranova 15.08.1987
Yuri Burdin 25.12.1967
Natalya Drantusova 04.05.1971
Irina Ivashkevich 20.09.1979
Mstislav Kamashev 15.10.1986
Alina Khafizova 10.09.1987
Evgeny Knyazev 07.02.1955
Anna Kucherova 18.04.1990
Elena Kuznetsova 11.06.1971
Tatyana Mangusheva 17.09.1949
Dmitry Muzichuk 30.05.1986
Bulat Safin 24.05.1986
Alexander Yankilyaykis 03.02.1977
Abdullah Sibgatullin 20.12.1926
Maria Sibgatullina 13.01.1926

We express our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims.

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  1. Vadivak
    Vadivak 21 November 2013 08: 47
    52
    Russians - the USSR sold Negro equipment, but what would the Negro sell it to Russians? Truly greed does not know what pride is for the country

    Lord, let the land of the innocently perished be down.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 21 November 2013 08: 57
      13
      Quote: Vadivak
      Russians - the USSR sold Negro equipment, but what would the Negro sell it to Russians? Truly greed does not know what pride is for the country

      infographics.

      Quote: Vadivak
      Lord, let the land of the innocently perished be down.

      Amen!
    2. voldmis
      voldmis 21 November 2013 11: 25
      27
      Quote: Vadivak
      Truly greed does not know what pride is for the country



      Provide 10 percent, and the capital agrees to any use, at 20 percent it becomes lively, at 50 percent it is positively ready to break its head, at 100 percent it violates all human laws, at 300 percent there is no crime that he would not risk, at least under pain of the gallows. - C.Marx
      1. Starina_hank
        Starina_hank 21 November 2013 21: 00
        +3
        K. Marx did not even think of such percentages of profit; he simply could not imagine such a thing.
    3. varov14
      varov14 21 November 2013 19: 07
      +5
      It turns out - Tatarstan is not even Uganda, and Russia is not even Africa. But with the heart we are with the West.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 21 November 2013 21: 23
        +6
        Quote: varov14
        It turns out - Tatarstan is not even Uganda, and Russia is not even Africa. But with the heart we are with the West
        - I wanted to ask for forgiveness - somewhere on the next branch I harshly ran over, maybe even in something not in the subject, on someone from the members of the forum for what he called the amerskiy "Apache" the best attack helicopter at the moment. At the same time he accompanied this post with a fashionable attack on the "uryakalok".
        Well, forgiveness is forgiveness, but it is generally not customary for normal people to admire a stranger, but it is customary to admit achievements (not to admire, but to admit - in fact, the difference is big) and make every effort to achieve the same. And even if it is not possible to achieve in all respects, nevertheless it is customary to be Proud of Already achieved so much that there is already some neglect of the LEADER. This is customary in normal people.
        In this case, no one disputes that Boeing is a leader in the field of civil aircraft manufacturing. So what? We acknowledge and try to achieve more. It is not possible to achieve in all respects, but in some even managed to surpass? From this moment on, we begin to deeply, sincerely and wholeheartedly BEWARE BOING and prefer our planes.
        Have I expressed my point quite clearly? If you don’t do this, then in this case you very soon will inevitably do exactly the opposite! That is, if you don’t start to despise the Boeing, then you will admire him so much that you begin to PREFER BOING to your native plane (clinging to those small parameters that couldn’t reach the Boeing level and just out of hatred for a certain person like Poghosyan) so much that you will to exploit this Boeing even after Uganda (!). Have you already seen that innocent people suffer from this?
        Vaughn and the Pleshakovs from Transaero brazenly declare that they will only consider (not take, but look closely) at Russian planes after Russian planes surpass Boeing in all respects by 10%, and the price will be lower by 10%. The Pleshakovs are a vivid example of the behavior that I posted above.
        And now I hope for the following: this forum will finally stop raiding "uryakalok". By the way, this fashion and even the term "uryakalka" was introduced by the VAF. And I hope that the VAF itself will despise foreign aircraft manufacturers and at least tolerate these "uryakalka". It is for professionals to see the disadvantages and advantages of competitors, and it is not customary for them to make their assessments to the general public. It is the estimates, since evaluations are always subjective, preferring instead of evaluations to discuss substantively one or another specific technical solution in a competitor's product or in a product from their own.
        And I also hope that all Russian airlines, where the first leaders publicly or non-publicly smeared themselves with contempt for the Russian aviation industry, will go broke or be overbought and transferred to normal Russians. If you do not - the planes will still fall, and the Ugandans will be unreasonably proud of their country - well, how can Russia use the planes after their hands, how can one not be proud? That does not fit in my head, honestly !!! am
    4. alone
      alone 21 November 2013 22: 29
      +3
      Rustam Salikhov 11.06.1966 FAC
      Gutsul Viktor Nikiforovich 12.06.1966 Second Pilot
      Zarifullina Nuriya Dafiytovna 1957 Senior Flight Attendant
      Garifullina Inga Rafailevna 06.02.1971 Flight Attendant
      Kabanova Olga Stanislavovna 22.04.1988 Flight attendant
      Khaidarov Damir Fardatovich 20.09.1987 Flight Attendant

      Passengers:

      Alexander Antonov 01.01.1957
      Irek Minnikhanov 04.03.1989
      Aliya Akhmetshina 23.07.1990
      Natalya Akulinina 21.08.1987
      Daria Artashina 07.09.2002
      Rezeda Fazleev 12.07.1959
      Diana Hajiyeva 10.05.1955
      Alina Kashapova 27.06.1998
      Rustam Guzhiev 27.02.1982
      Yury Lyashin 12.04.1976
      Olga Morozova 08.02.1960
      Ruslan Nazyarov 17.09.1973
      Margarita Oshurkova 22.06.1958
      Roman Parkhomenko 20.02.1986
      Gulnara Rashitova 15.07.1991
      Diana Safiullina 09.10.1989
      Victoria Schukina 01.10.1977
      Ellina Skvortsova 08.06.1976
      Anastasia Sterkhova 23.01.1990
      Denis Vaprentsev 02.10.1984
      Venus Zaripov 07.09.1988
      Albina Zaripova 21.01.1980
      Victoria Zgurtskaya 30.08.1969
      Donna Carolina Bull 14.02.1960
      Gennady Makarov 31.10.1965
      Pavel Prokofiev 15.01.1974
      Ayrat Sadrutdinov 16.02.1984
      Nikolay Smolentsev 19.04.1964
      Elena Smolentseva 29.05.1966
      Yana Baranova 15.08.1987
      Yuri Burdin 25.12.1967
      Natalya Drantusova 04.05.1971
      Irina Ivashkevich 20.09.1979
      Mstislav Kamashev 15.10.1986
      Alina Khafizova 10.09.1987
      Evgeny Knyazev 07.02.1955
      Anna Kucherova 18.04.1990
      Elena Kuznetsova 11.06.1971
      Tatyana Mangusheva 17.09.1949
      Dmitry Muzichuk 30.05.1986
      Bulat Safin 24.05.1986
      Alexander Yankilyaykis 03.02.1977
      Abdullah Sibgatullin 20.12.1926
      Maria Sibgatullina 13.01.1926


      someone decided to fill their pockets by buying the old junk, but the people on the list are no longer returning. If there are destinies destined for such people? time does not wait. Because of criminal decisions, each of us’s life is in danger am
    5. Combitor
      Combitor 24 November 2013 00: 38
      0
      Lists are usually published in alphabetical order. The author, apparently, deliberately departed from this rule in order to put VIPs in the first place. But that's me, by the way.
      The Kazan plane crash is the result of a tragic interweaving of circumstances. If I. Minikhanov was not going to take this flight, the airline would not have changed the plane. Accordingly, the pilots would also be different. And if we consider the earlier chain of events and how Yuri Trutnev, Mentimer Shaimiev, Rustam Minikhanov and his son put their hands on this, then this tragedy was bound to happen sooner or later. The only pity is that ordinary citizens are paying for the "shoals" of high-ranking officials and businessmen who feed them. I am not sorry for the son of the President of Tatarstan. By his death, he "answered" for himself, his "deeds" and the "deeds" of his father. For everything that was connected in their life with the Tatarstan airline. It is immensely sorry for those who were with him in this ill-fated plane.
  2. Same lech
    Same lech 21 November 2013 08: 50
    +1
    Sadly, all of this — the flight safety system works poorly.
    1. mak210
      mak210 21 November 2013 09: 02
      20
      What is another security system, if the main priority of today's life is junk and the one that has accumulated even more junk is successful.
      1. sergey261180
        sergey261180 21 November 2013 11: 52
        +9
        Well, junk drives take care of themselves normally.
    2. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 19: 10
      +4
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Sadly, all of this — the flight safety system works poorly.


      The sad thing is not that it does not work, but that it is this system - .. does not exist a priori! Rather .. ceased to exist completely soldier
    3. varov14
      varov14 21 November 2013 19: 14
      +1
      YOU are different "minibuses", and even warn about safety. Candy is bad for the teeth, didn't my mother say, especially the current ones.
  3. badger1974
    badger1974 21 November 2013 08: 53
    +9
    I would like to know why the Boeing has plummeted, because I went to the second round as usual,

    land rest in peace
    1. Mature naturalist
      Mature naturalist 21 November 2013 10: 45
      +4
      Quote: badger1974
      I would like to know why the Boeing crashed steeply, because I went to the second round in the normal mode, the land rest in peace

      Here is what Kommersant writes:
      According to Kommersant's sources, specialists are now studying the medical records of the deceased pilots and the results of psychological tests that they regularly passed. Anyway experts are convinced that only a person who was in a state of uncontrolled panic or, conversely, in a stupor could not recognize a fatal peak lasting for twenty seconds. However, only doctors can give exact answers to these questions.

      Maybe there is still a reason for the conspiracy version of "Troshev No. 2"?
      1. badger1974
        badger1974 22 November 2013 00: 14
        0
        everything happens for the first time, as they say, "and there is a hole in the old woman," why did it collapse vertically? such an impression as the Tu-144 in Le Bourget, there were reasons, but here ....., too, the steering wheel jammed?
    2. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 21 November 2013 10: 49
      19
      Condolences to the families and friends of the victims.
      The commander of the ship, Rustem Salikhov, flew all his life as a navigator, and under 50 years old, due to life circumstances (reduction from work), he decided to learn to become a pilot. What is it like?
      The co-pilot Victor Gutsul, a flight engineer, followed the same pattern, learned to be a pilot at the same age.
      Is this normal?
      Guys, heaven be with them, pensioners, by aviation standards, retired and decided to become pilots of civil aviation and carry dozens of passengers. And most importantly, they became these pilots! Who allowed them?
      They have developed other skills, including psychological ones, over the ten years of flying as a navigator and flight engineer.
      In Russia, there is a crisis in the training of flight personnel. This is called sailed, then the scribe!
      Where to get the flight crew? Where to get planes that can safely carry passengers? Where is the reasonable power in the person of the Government and the President of the Russian Federation - the guarantor of the Constitution, which must ensure the rights of citizens to preserve life and health during air transportation?
      How to get out of this systemic crisis that hit Russian Civil Aviation?
      Or maybe this is not so much a systemic crisis in civil aviation as a political crisis in the leadership of the state in their ability to manage that state?
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 13: 34
        11
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Is this normal?


        In principle, it’s okay, you can fly as a PKK (after all, the most important thing is the right thing, it's .. don’t interfere with the left one).
        But to appoint K.K to the post, and even more so to "bring" them ... into one crew belay
        For this you need the Director (Head) of the Flight Service A.K. and General Director A.K. at least .. to drive in three necks and without the right to approach a aviation in any quality ever in the remaining life for a cannon shot! soldier
      2. Drosselmeyer
        Drosselmeyer 21 November 2013 15: 52
        +4
        Well, for a long time, at the government level, the possibility of attracting foreign pilots to work in Russian airlines has been discussed. It is clear that they will go those who did not find a place in European companies. They are already flying in ..
      3. Muadipus
        Muadipus 21 November 2013 17: 54
        +4
        In Russia, there is a crisis in the training of flight personnel. This is called sailed, then the scribe!
        Where to get the flight crew? Where to get planes that can safely carry passengers? Where is the reasonable power in the person of the Government and the President of the Russian Federation - the guarantor of the Constitution, which must ensure the rights of citizens to preserve life and health during air transportation?
        How to get out of this systemic crisis that hit Russian Civil Aviation?
        Or maybe this is not so much a systemic crisis in civil aviation as a political crisis in the leadership of the state in their ability to manage that state?

        these issues are as old as the world. The fact is that there are specific people in specific full-time positions who are paid money to correctly pose these issues and, accordingly, solve them.
        The questions are not complicated, it’s not for you that an egg or a chicken appeared earlier.
        All issues of an organizational nature and strong political will.
        Only people who have to solve these issues and who are paid to solve these issues are busy with much more serious problems (for example: how to build a house for a son-in-law for agreeing to take this monster as a wife; how to lobby Horn and Hooves LLC as an expert office and let the cash flow through it; how to organize flights without investing money, but at the same time earn superprofits; and how God forbid the boss to cross the road with all these actions, because he has his own children; and how to keep track of the lobbies of power with so many worries, so as not to miss your trickle from the general fountain of abundance, etc., etc.) what are the new planes and the prepared train? what are the good roads? with the main problems to rake.

        How to get out of this systemic crisis that hit Russian Civil Aviation?
        he hit the whole country.
        as Professor Preobrazhensky said "chaos in the minds", "You cannot serve two gods"
      4. badger1974
        badger1974 22 November 2013 00: 18
        0
        I'm still inclined to the provided version-DESIGN FATIGUE OF THE AIRCRAFT then e Boeing
    3. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 13: 27
      28
      Quote: badger1974
      why the Boeing crashed steeply


      Because it reached the supercritical angles of attack, at which a complete stall occurs and, as a result, the lifting force is 0, and the plane turns into .. brick. which falls vertically down!

      Quote: badger1974
      because I went to the second round as usual,


      This is how the representatives of the IAC tell this, who benefit from the fact that the plane was 100% "serviceable" and everything worked normally; otherwise, they will start to "ask" uncomfortable questions, how "miraculously" the IAC validated the airworthiness certificate for an airplane, which according to all standards of theirs ICAO place in a landfill or, at least after an overhaul, carry either mail or cargo.
      And when Neradko states on TV that the operating time of a passenger plane of 56 hours (!!!!!!!) is the norm belay , then I would like to ask ... how much in the end "got" interested persons "of all departments who put" chikuhi "(blue wet seal and signature) under the Decision allowing to exploit this" scrap "in the airspace of the Russian Federation for the transportation of passengers.

      Quote: badger1974
      because I went to the second round as usual,


      Do you have a time decoding of the tape? belay
      When the IAC expert on TV spoke and talked about the first data obtained during decryption, he said that he left the second circle at a speed of 250 km / h. For reference, this is the speed of completion of alignment at a height of 3-5 meters and almost above the end of the runway, because landing speed (touch) within 210-230 km / h.
      And the BOEING "fell" at a speed of 225 km / h.
      And by the way, getting the engine to take-off mode also takes some time and much more. than by car when accelerating to 100 km / h.

      Further it is not difficult to imagine a picture .. "but not in oil" crying

      In the cockpit behind the horns, the guys were not just not professionals, but ... then only pee-pee. and stupidly pulled the "horns" towards themselves (because they knew nothing else and could not).
      And if you also removed the flaps from landing to take-offs ... then in general ... many, many, many pi.pi.pi.pi. am
      And so that everything would be understood correctly, leaving for the second round .. it's like the letter A and B in the primer .. that is. ELEMENTARY exercise !!!

      Only here in the Russian Federation there is a "firm" issuing permits and the same "firm" investigates incidents with "that" for which the same firm issued a permit wassat
      1. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 21 November 2013 13: 56
        +8
        Quote: vaf
        Only here in the Russian Federation there is a "firm" issuing permits and the same "firm" investigates incidents with "that" for which the same firm issued a permit

        It’s useless to argue with Sergey (Vaf) on airplanes, and there’s no reason to argue. Always objectively and intelligibly.
      2. gispanec
        gispanec 21 November 2013 15: 04
        +5
        Quote: vaf
        Only here in the Russian Federation there is a "firm" issuing permits and the same "firm" investigates incidents with "that" for which the same firm issued a permit

        here is all the salt !!!! and this is not only in the air, but in everyday life .... the earth rest in peace for the dead, and the perpetrators must be punished publicly ... otherwise .... and further we will be cattle and serfs for the state
      3. Scoun
        Scoun 21 November 2013 17: 29
        +4
        Quote: vaf
        In the cabin behind the horns guys were sitting not just not professionals,

        We have only thoughts and governments in corporations, beginning with the Kremlin and ending with city governments - there are professional rabble cutters ... who are not ashamed to put K.K-navigator behind the helm and the plane that the banana republics refused to operate .... and not only the owner Aviarazhki bastard of the same bastard another bastard stamped that the aircraft is suitable for carrying passengers.
      4. badger1974
        badger1974 22 November 2013 00: 33
        +1
        vaf, I don’t need to tell you about stalling and inversion. The pilots always believe in the artificial horizon, another thing is that this Boeing was in the lines through the tenth "hands", CONTROL OF VEHICLES IS NECESSARY, even for the first time in flight, at the peak you failed, if the flight is uncontrollable, I was interested in this, my opinion is fatigue constructions, and not H.R. on the pilots to roll a barrel
      5. Svarog
        Svarog 22 November 2013 08: 59
        0
        And no one had the idea that one of the "difficult" passengers of that flight could sit at the helm? After all, the speech recorder has not yet been "found"
      6. phantom359
        phantom359 23 November 2013 00: 56
        0
        Yes, somewhere like that. Under the Union, the conveyor was developed every week. With the 2nd grade they did 5th grade.
  4. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon 21 November 2013 08: 54
    10
    Rest in peace.
    Operate aircraft after Uganda ... Well this is how much you need to be an avaricious creature ... Only money-money-money ...
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 21 November 2013 08: 59
      +5
      No comment.
  5. bairat
    bairat 21 November 2013 09: 01
    17
    A little information on the topic: there is a large aviation university in Kazan, however, a field irrigation specialist was appointed to lead the Tatarstan airline.
    1. sergey32
      sergey32 21 November 2013 09: 44
      +8
      Evil is not enough! As much as possible, we got the managers. The authorities live one day, it is time to understand that the mess is not only hit by mere mortals. Completely fenced off does not work.
    2. G02.
      G02. 21 November 2013 15: 03
      +9
      Previously, retired military personnel were taken as support and flight personnel. Now "cool managers" think they are the best at this topic. They destroyed everything, and the whole country is wondering why everything is bad :)
      And retirees (highly qualified specialists) retire :)
  6. Strashila
    Strashila 21 November 2013 09: 02
    15
    Greed knows no bounds ... all statements are simply about the serviceability of the ship just bullshit ... in reality, no Russian regulatory authority can do this ... legally, it is a foreign aircraft with extraterritoriality.... and such ships the bulk in the sky of Russia.
    1. Esso
      Esso 21 November 2013 09: 56
      +5
      As my boss at work said, Russia is a country in which all the trash is dumped, but if the owner of a supported car monitors his car and its safety, then there is no airline company, it’s important for her to buy money for a new plane for airlines, our manufacturers they cannot keep up with the provision of medium-haul aircraft companies! All that remains is to intervene in the government, how many people should die, so that they stop buying junk from us!
    2. alicante11
      alicante11 21 November 2013 14: 00
      +1
      in reality, no Russian regulatory authority can do this ... legally, it is a foreign aircraft with extraterritoriality.


      In the sense of? Are the aircraft leased? As far as I know, the leasing equipment is owned by the leasing agent, and who is it? Obviously not a Bulgarian seller. Plus, the plane could not be allowed to fly if it did not have the necessary permissions. And without access, this cannot be done. I’m not saying that these permissions could be made by corruption schemes, just the inspection authorities have the opportunity to check the state of the aircraft in any way.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 14: 23
        +6
        Quote: alicante11
        In what sense?


        In that, as an Aviation Security Service, you cannot come and check the compliance of those. the state of the aircraft in this airline.
        You can only show the magazines of the periodic T. About where it will be written that everything is tip-top!
        In everything else, you are absolutely right +!
        And especially on the topic of obtaining "permits" (the trough is still the same)!
        And as for the verifiers lol After all, the IAC gave permission and the IAC now and .. checks.
        Here, as the Elder says, he needs him recourse (just like with a stool)
        1. alicante11
          alicante11 21 November 2013 15: 00
          +1
          In that, as an Aviation Security Service, you cannot come and check the compliance of those. the state of the aircraft in this airline.


          Still, you can read more? Is it THIS a / c or leasing aircraft? And on what basis can not we verify? I'm really curious.
          1. VAF
            VAF 21 November 2013 16: 15
            +4
            Quote: alicante11
            Still, you can read more?


            It is long, tedious, and most importantly "disgusting"! Since from catastrophe to catastrophe it all comes down to a talking shop and nothing is done.
            And who will do .. Anodina and Neradko ... I beg you.
            If it’s not difficult in YouTube, find a film on the Boeing Perm disaster (when Troshev died), where A. Mamontov’s special correspondent discusses this problem in his program.
            And if you compare it with this Monday, you will be in shock.
            There were really all the pros and "managers-leaders", and here ... some deputies with their show.

            As one of my acquaintances, who now works as an air traffic controller, said - .. "we completely lay down under ICAO and they keep us for ..." well, then only it is not censored.
            1. MAG
              MAG 21 November 2013 17: 58
              +2
              According to the crash at our (in Perm) Boeing, everything here is muddy-1, when the plane flew out of Moscow, the rescuers raised alarm bells 2 many witnesses who said they saw the plane with burning engines and among the witnesses the local journalist said on the night of the fall that she saw how burning plane crashed 3version with capture was the main one (because Troshev was on board) 4 if you repeat 11.11.2001 but as the goal of the NWEP (oil plant) half of the city is pi ... c. And so we think a lot.
              1. VAF
                VAF 21 November 2013 18: 25
                +3
                Quote: MAG
                And so we think a lot.


                And .. in vain ..... loss of spatial position, plus not experienced p.k.k. that's all ... went beyond the roll limit and fell off and ... no TA soldier
        2. 11111mail.ru
          11111mail.ru 21 November 2013 17: 51
          +4
          Quote: vaf
          After all, the IAC gave permission and the IAC now and .. checks.

          The IAC is the International Aviation Committee, a firm that has arrogated to itself the powers of the arbiter-resolver of issues in terms of aircraft. A sort of "Horns and Hooves" office. Burp in the post-Soviet space of wild capitalism.
          1. VAF
            VAF 21 November 2013 18: 22
            +5
            Quote: 11111mail.ru
            IAC is an international aviation committee, a company that has arrogated to itself the authority of the arbiter-resolver of issues regarding aviation technology.


            +! drinks but only Interstate, and not international, otherwise Mrs. Anodina would be a queen at all wassat
            and not only technology, but also SECURITY .. only THEY, and all who "try on their own", then this is at least Excess of Official Powers, about how belay
            I am familiar with them ... very familiar bully
  7. july
    july 21 November 2013 09: 05
    17
    I have no doubt that the version about the crew's fault will be announced. The whole mess in the management of the company will be "let down on the brakes", the raven will not peck out the crow's eyes, and they will once again show us that we are stupid people and will grab everything that is prepared for us. And the saddest thing is that it is so in all spheres of our life, from housing and communal services to the government, we will always be extreme. Let us remember the departed and send them the prayers of our hearts.
    1. Do not care
      Do not care 21 November 2013 09: 48
      +8
      The general recent trend for all airlines in the world:
      With the growth of aircraft automation, pilots are losing basic piloting skills and are increasingly making blunders in emergency situations.
      A couple of days ago, the FAA released a report on this subject urging the company to strengthen pilot training:

      http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/19/21537851-airline-pilots-depend-too-mu
      ch-on-automation-says-panel-commissioned-by-faa? lite
    2. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 13: 43
      11
      Quote: July
      I have no doubt that the version of the crew’s fault will be voiced


      It’s not regrettable to state this, but .. here 100% of the crew’s fault.
      For all that, the plane, to put it mildly, is ... not a plane, but ... there were no critical failures.
      And the tales of a passenger flying to Moscow about the type of waving his wings and pecking his nose wassat the opinion of the average person who has never seen and does not know how the AZP works and is implemented according to the ILS system.
      And all the sharp evolution of the aircraft is only due to the mismatch of the links between the PFPs (at the heading and glide path) of the aircraft and the AP (autopilots).
      And why ... yes, because no one was involved in these systems (maintenance).
      And why then did the crew use them? Yes, because in another they ARE NOT ABLE !!! soldier
      1. Kashchei
        Kashchei 21 November 2013 14: 14
        +1
        http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43487165426/Esli-otkazal-avtomat-tyagi - очень близкая версия И профессионально аргументрованная
  8. Stiletto
    Stiletto 21 November 2013 09: 08
    +8
    Condolences to the families of the victims. It's a pity the pilots, now they will hang all the dogs on them, because the dead do not have shame ...
  9. avia12005
    avia12005 21 November 2013 09: 13
    14
    But in Kazan they make Tu-204. Mr. President of Tatarstan, how is that? Oh, their republican airline could be equipped with their own aircraft ... Or coffin Boeing better?
    1. bairat
      bairat 21 November 2013 09: 21
      +6
      Build planes do not bake pies. KMPO and KAPO are not subordinate to the President of Tatarstan.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 21 November 2013 09: 36
      -10 qualifying.
      For reference, our handicrafts like Tu-154 to Boeing-737 in terms of production volume, as before China with cancer, so do not think that the most successful project in the history of civil aviation is a coffin. He will give a head start on reliability to any "carcass".
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 21 November 2013 09: 54
        +3
        Quote: EvilLion
        He will give a head start on reliability to any "carcass".


        Give an example of a crashed Tu-204.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 21 November 2013 10: 44
          0
          http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ту-204#.D0.9F.D0.BE.D1.82.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B8

          I don’t see any reason to argue for this, since you don’t even know the elementary.
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 21 November 2013 11: 18
            +4
            Quote: EvilLion
            I don’t see any reason to argue for this, since you don’t even know the elementary.


            Before you argue, at least read what you publish.

            Our Tu-204 has never crashed, there were accidents but there were no disasters, there were no victims.


            Keep praising flying American coffins.
            1. VAF
              VAF 21 November 2013 13: 49
              +9
              Quote: Vadivak
              Our Tu-204 has never crashed


              Vadim, you're wrong ... Krasnye Krylia in Vnukovo.
              For reference, anywhere on earth or in the air, if at least one person dies on an aircraft, then this is a disaster.
              Even if an accident occurs (that is, there are living and wounded) and subsequently someone dies in the hospital, the incident will immediately be reclassified to CATASTROPHE.

              And Bobik is ... so reliable an aircraft in terms of aerodynamics that it will "ditch" on it ... you have to try ... what actually in Kazan the pilots ... did.
              True, they did not "try" .. I did not put it correctly, but simply ... they did not know how !!! soldier
        2. Cynic
          Cynic 21 November 2013 12: 01
          +3
          Quote: Vadivak
          Give an example of a crashed Tu-204.

          Alas, it was!

          Tu-204 has problems with the brake system,

          Fortunately, an accident, not a plane crash!
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 21 November 2013 12: 05
            +1
            Quote: Cynic
            Fortunately, an accident, not a plane crash!


            That's it. You wrote it yourself. The plane landed and did not crash and there were no casualties.
            1. Cynic
              Cynic 21 November 2013 12: 16
              0
              Quote: Vadivak
              The plane landed but did not crash

              Correct _ Aircraft landed and crashed .

              We are not talking about something, don’t you?
              1. Lavr75
                Lavr75 22 November 2013 04: 44
                0
                That's right - the plane collided with the ground!
            2. Samy
              Samy 22 November 2013 10: 56
              +1
              The plane crashed, 2 people died. This is classified as a disaster.
      2. Bishop
        Bishop 21 November 2013 11: 13
        +3
        "Wingless Russia or how they want to ditch the TU-154": http: //www.za-nauku.ru//index.php? Option = com_content & task = view & id = 5
        792 & Itemid = 39
      3. july
        july 21 November 2013 11: 27
        +4
        I would not mind your comment if this Boeing was new, but the trick is that the company is really buying up "coffins" with many years of experience.
      4. alicante11
        alicante11 21 November 2013 14: 04
        +2
        For reference, it is called a "coffin" for its age (23 years) and technical condition. At the same time, the technical condition of the Tu-134 after 38 years of operation before the disaster was excellent.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 22 November 2013 00: 15
          0
          And who can exactly guarantee that 20 + has no fatigue damage for years? She is so carefully researched everywhere.
      5. kartalovkolya
        kartalovkolya 21 November 2013 16: 37
        +3
        Yes, I gave a head start on the corpses! Oh, you are a patriotic patriot! To tears, I’m sorry for the dead and three times betrayal of them will be another operation to lower this crime on the brakes! Bright memory to the innocent victims of greed and stupidity holding power!
      6. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 21 November 2013 18: 00
        +1
        Quote: EvilLion
        In terms of reliability, any "carcass" has a head start

        Cards on the table! We reveal: argue your testimony with comparative data for both types of aircraft! Indicate the time between failures in flight, relating it to the number of sorties and the number of flying boards. Then we will substantively argue ...
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 21 November 2013 18: 07
          +2
          Quote: 11111mail.ru
          Cards on the table! We reveal: argue

          Yes, do not pay attention!
          If a person ... then it’s forever!
          Well, not in the know EvilLion of what scrape any carcass You will find a war machine. And they have such margins of safety that civilian sides never dreamed of.
          yes
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 22 November 2013 00: 25
            -1
            Awesome logic, if the strength of the Tu-160 allows you to fly to 2000 km / h, then how does the strength of the Tu-154, or the Tu-204 come from?
            Although you can estimate the percentage of crashed approximately.
            http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_потерянных_Boeing_737 учитываем, что часть машин уничтожена в боевых действиях. Ту-204 боевых потерь не имеет, но 2/75*10=2.7% разбившихся. Любой статист вам скажет, что выборка незначима, но другой у нас нет. Впрочем возьмем ту же педивикию с ее числом выпущенных самолетов на май 2013, а потерях, включая Казань мы уже имеем 174/7604*100=2.3% потерянных от всех причин машин.

            Excuse me, but the most successful airliner in the history of aviation simply cannot be unreliable by definition, otherwise it would simply not be bought on such a scale and not licked in all aspects to the limit.
          2. Samy
            Samy 22 November 2013 11: 01
            -2
            So, the car is overweight, which means it loses in the economy, which means that the airlines take them out of service. Look at the parking lots in the ports, Carcasses are standing, Boeings are flying. Boeing is definitely more profitable in operation than Tu. You do not go to work every day on an armored UAZ?
    3. Esso
      Esso 21 November 2013 10: 11
      +2
      Mr. President of Tatarstan has already paid with his son’s life ... May the earth rest in peace for him!
  10. aleks2007
    aleks2007 21 November 2013 09: 16
    +2
    Guilty will not be again? Or blame the dead crew?
    Very sorry for the dead and their families .......
  11. os9165
    os9165 21 November 2013 09: 26
    12
    Earth down dead.
    The questions are just why, why:
    -no highly professional pilots;
    - ditched the Russian aviation industry,
    - buy buckets, not planes,
    - tickets cost many times more than in Europe. Alone why.
    There is only one answer - they systematically ruined everything, from the construction of aircraft to their operation, training and control. Only loot and loot again, and no one is responsible for anything.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 21 November 2013 14: 08
      +2
      The problem of pilots is the result of a decline in traffic in the 90-ies. 80's pilots retired, and few were trained in those years, because they were not in demand. Yes, and cooked in a moronic way. My classmate graduated from college without a raid. And, of course, he was not hired for a long time. And a couple of years ago they took it. Pilots became a deficit, since in the 2000-ies there was a steady increase in traffic.
  12. Prometey
    Prometey 21 November 2013 09: 27
    +2
    As usual, they will write everything to the dead - after all, they will never be able to object. And the plane, yes, could fly and fly - and it doesn’t matter that they even refused to operate it in Romania and Bulgaria. For such scum, in which our country is now more and more sliding such planes just right.
  13. EvilLion
    EvilLion 21 November 2013 09: 34
    +2
    There is a radical solution, the liquidation of all private traders and the transfer of materiel to Aeroflot. If they cannot provide, then they should not work.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 21 November 2013 09: 46
      +7
      Quote: EvilLion
      There is a radical solution, the elimination of all private traders and the transfer of materiel to Aeroflot


      What's the difference? Open Joint Stock Company Aeroflot-Russian Airlines Founders:
      Rosimushchestvo, Gravor Trading (Overseas) Limit, Dunsland Ltd, Transinvest Control S.A, JSCB "Nrbank" (OJSC)

      The same canoe with used foreign cars

      This is what they wrote three years ago - Aeroflot - Russian Airlines is considering the possibility of leasing used regional aircraft of Western production to replace domestic aircraft, it is preparing to take a Boeing 737-500 (which collapsed in Kazan) and is considering the possibility of acquiring a Boeing 737-300, that is the former pride of the USSR flies on that scrap metal
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 21 November 2013 10: 48
        0
        There is a big difference, otherwise in the "Sold Sky" they complain that there is no money, the state must create conditions for them. Well, firstly, it should not do anything except to ensure that the planes do not fall, and, secondly, no one canceled the economies of scale, one should not think that the zhyvopyrka will ever have money for a new car.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 21 November 2013 12: 02
          11
          Quote: EvilLion
          the state must create conditions for them.


          Our state has forgiven everyone for a long time, do you understand yet? Where do you think the American junk came from in our sky? Who controlled its import? Who issued the flight certificate? One example. When Berezovsky's people came to Aeroflot, they began to call the pilots "carriers" and buy used foreign cars.
          1. Apollo
            Apollo 21 November 2013 12: 09
            +2
            Quote: Vadivak
            Where do you think American junk came from in our sky? Who controlled her import? Who gave the flight certificate?


            Bravo Vadim hi questions are timely as always and most importantly legitimate.imho.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Samy
      Samy 22 November 2013 11: 03
      +1
      But for some reason Aeroflot itself is decommissioning domestic cars ...
  14. Oberst_71
    Oberst_71 21 November 2013 10: 00
    11
    The dead pilot of the Boeing 737-500, Rustem Salikhov, served as captain of the aircraft for a year and a half. For most of his life, 47-year-old Rustem worked as a navigator on the Tu-154 of Tatarstan Airlines, and the co-pilot was generally a flight engineer! What an experienced crew it is. How many hours did you have to fly into the USSR as a co-pilot in order to be appointed crew commander! And now automation! The operator is in the plane, not the pilot. When at one time they were retraining for imported cars, Western experts said that we had very good manual piloting. And their pilots are spoiled by the fact that they fly mainly in automatic mode. Modern aircraft are now being designed so that a specially trained operator can sit in the cockpit instead of the pilot, who only observes the instruments and can intervene in control only as a last resort. These operators, and not the pilots, are flying now.
  15. FunkschNNX
    FunkschNNX 21 November 2013 10: 03
    +5
    And why be surprised, the capitalist will strangle his mother for an extra% of profit.
    The comments of the "experienced" were certainly amused. How can they know "with difficulty" or without difficulty, the pilot was driving the car, vibrations on his "body", a brake, the plane has no body. Since it was so dreadful, I would have pulled the brake valve. They only whip up hysteria.
    It is a pity that ordinary people have to pay for their profits with their lives.
  16. Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 21 November 2013 10: 09
    +5
    Quote: Vadivak
    Russians - the USSR sold Negro equipment, but what would the Negro sell it to Russians? Truly greed does not know what pride is for the country

    Lord, let the land of the innocently perished be down.

    Why are civilian boards falling? Because airlines save on passengers, buy all kinds of guano in the west, which has already exhausted its resource there, and hope that you can fly on these buckets, it seems to me that the directors of the companies repeat to themselves before each flight, "if only he didn’t fall, just not fell "! It's a shame that the planes do not fall due to some factors, but due to the fact that these boards should not fly anymore, they should be scrapped, and not lift the wheels into the air!
    1. atalef
      atalef 21 November 2013 10: 12
      +2
      wassat
      Quote: Vadivak
      Russians - the USSR sold Negro equipment, but what would the Negro sell it to Russians?

      I don’t know, inspired
      I looked back to see if she looked back, what would I see if I looked back
  17. aszzz888
    aszzz888 21 November 2013 10: 28
    +4
    The kingdom of heaven is lost. It is difficult to add something to the statements of forum users. Everyone understands correctly, is there really a different type of people who do not see anything except profit and everything else, including human lives, fades before them. And unfortunately there are such people. God be their judge!
  18. Internal combustion engine
    Internal combustion engine 21 November 2013 10: 30
    +3
    What catastrophe still has to happen in order for Putin to finally give the command to restore order in civil aviation at least at the level of Uganda.
    1. Ptah
      Ptah 21 November 2013 15: 30
      +2
      Quote: ICE
      What catastrophe must still happen in order for Putin to finally give a command to direct in civil aviation

      I admit that it will sound cynical, but maybe this will happen when his daughter dies?
      But it is better not to allow this.

      In August, he flew to Moscow with this board. Before that, I used the services of many airlines and types of aircraft, but there was really some kind of loud noise and vibration during maneuvers.
      Or maybe it seemed.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 17: 10
        +2
        Quote: Ptah
        but there was really some kind of loud noise and vibration during maneuvers.


        Noise is a "not correct" operation of the SCR system and automatic automatic control systems, but vibration, or rather shaking, is a close "approach" to the available restrictions on the aerodynamic layout of the aircraft at a particular stage of the flight, well, all kinds of "atmospheric turbulent" phenomena wink

        If there was a vibration, then you would at least feel everything with your teeth at once, and all the locks and handles of the chairs of the tables of plafonds, regulators, luggage racks, etc. wassat
    2. rus9875
      rus9875 21 November 2013 22: 00
      0
      After 20 years both the aviation industry and the flight personnel training system were ruined, simply "giving the command" is clearly not enough - Putin is not a magician so that everything suddenly becomes good and right at his command - systematic work is needed, this is not a matter of days but years. will be as usual - for a couple of weeks the media will gossip on the topic of aviation security and safely switch to something else until the next emergency
  19. Aleksandr
    Aleksandr 21 November 2013 10: 34
    +2
    Deny Boeings - black boxes are not saved.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 21 November 2013 12: 07
      +6
      Quote: Aleksandr
      black boxes are not saved.


      Rather seized to hide the real reason
  20. pahom54
    pahom54 21 November 2013 10: 39
    +6
    Sorry for the dead, long memory ...
    And ashamed, you know, not maliciously, but painfully ashamed of our rulers and pot-bellied bosses, whose money-bucks have their eyes closed ... It’s a shame even before those niggas who bought a flying barn ...
    People died, relatives - grief, and not just grief - because if the plane was normal, this would not have happened!
    The state has withdrawn from monitoring the serviceability of aircraft of private airlines. But then citizens of the same state fly on these airplanes! And in general, the purchase of decrepitude and the transportation of these citizens on it can be equated to an attempt on the safety and life of these citizens !!!
    Mr. Attorney General You are the sovereign's eye, overseeing the implementation of laws. Please look carefully at the Constitution and the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation and finally get down to business !. Prevent at least further killing on the airlines !!!
  21. f4b2
    f4b2 21 November 2013 10: 42
    +5
    Quote: bairat
    A little information on the topic: there is a large aviation university in Kazan, however, a field irrigation specialist was appointed to lead the Tatarstan airline.


    Amendment. University - was. It was called KAI (Kazan Aviation Institute named after A.N. Tupolev). And the aircraft factory was.
    Now it is not clear what. From the moment of "perestroika" started by the labeled, the specialists of this institute were no longer needed.
    The plant’s products are also not needed.
  22. AlexA
    AlexA 21 November 2013 10: 51
    19
    Colleagues, the article, after all, is about the version. I am an aircraft engineer. I will try, without emotion, to try to understand what happened, according to the published data of the parametric recorder.
    The pilot gave gas and removed the chassis. But the stabilizer action is NOT FIXED. Boeing engines are below the center of mass and center of pressure. In this case, according to the laws of mechanics, a moment of forces arises on the pitching. Moreover, the lack of a chassis - in the role of an air brake below the engine thrust vector - reinforces the moment. The pitch angle is increasing, which was recorded by the recorder. At an angle of 125 degrees, the aerodynamic drag increases, the horizontal component of the engine thrust decreases, and the speed drops. What is again recorded by the registrar. And the vertical thrust component is naturally not enough to keep the airplane in the air. But until this moment, the pilot STILL DOESN’T REACT THE STEERING WHEEL to move the aircraft to a horizontal position. This is impartial evidence from the registrar. And the plane may already fall into a tailspin. And only with this position of the airplane is the stabilizer acting to reduce the cabrio. Which is quite logical: the aircraft is moved to a horizontal position, which makes it possible to increase speed and, after obsessing, continue a normal flight to the second circle. And at this moment it was recorded that the PILOT AGAIN DOES NOT REACT THE ROCKER, now to prevent the transfer of the airplane into a dive. The dive continues, and for 20 SECONDS no pilot attempts were made to withdraw the aircraft from the peak.
    From the point of view of aerodynamics and mechanics, especially taking into account the significant mass of the machine and its inertia, the behavior of the aircraft is absolutely understandable. Obviously, the delay in the action of the stabilizer. But why this delay happened is incomprehensible. Either the pilot did not take into account the inertia of the machine, or lost orientation, or something stuck. It is hoped that the answers will be received in the subsequent analysis of the testimony of all registrars and fragments of the aircraft.
    In memory of the victims and in the prevention of such things in the future, I ask the PILOTS to comment. This IMHO is important for current pilots for the coming.
    1. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 21 November 2013 11: 26
      +2
      From the point of view of aerodynamics and mechanics, especially considering ...


      In my opinion, in this situation it is necessary to consider the catastrophe from a psychological point of view.
      Poorly trained pilots, due to the psycho-monitor skills and qualities developed by the navigator and flight engineer for many years of flight, simply did not react to an emergency situation, did not have action skills even in such a normal situation as leaving the second circle, they were confused and acted differently as needed.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 14: 16
        +3
        Quote: vladimirZ

        In my opinion, in this situation it is necessary to consider the catastrophe from a psychological point of view.
        Poorly trained pilots, due to the psycho-monitor skills and qualities developed by the navigator and flight engineer for many years of flight, simply did not react to an emergency situation, did not have action skills even in such a normal situation as leaving the second circle, they were confused and acted differently as needed.


        +! soldier only as an addition at the end of your comment - ".. because they did not know at all how to act due to the lack of elementary knowledge of the aerodynamics of the aircraft and the representation of the physical essence of the process, although Zhukovsky curves are studied in the new course of the" school "and they know the required and available values ​​of thrust as .. the multiplication table "!
    2. askort154
      askort154 21 November 2013 12: 51
      10
      AlexA ... I ask the PILOTS to comment.

      Your version is correctly presented (only the pitch angle is not 125, but 25).
      As for the premature versions - my flying experience is 40 calendar years, so I never participate in the discussion of disasters until the conclusions of the commission of inquiry.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 17: 39
        +4
        Quote: askort154
        my flight experience is 40 calendar years, so I never participate in the discussion of disasters until the conclusions of the commission of inquiry.


        Sasha, welcome! Damn, now I’ll count ... I have not had less than 38 years in the positions of flight-lifting personnel drinks
        Well, about participation in discussions ... I can not "pass by", because. I know how it is "investigated" and in "whose interests" bully
        1. rus9875
          rus9875 21 November 2013 22: 48
          +9
          my experience is 28 calendar years, the total flight time is about 10 thousand hours on the Yak-18t, AN-2_, Yak-40, TU-134 It is terribly annoying how our media make blood shows from every plane crash, it seems that the magazine has a holiday when this happens It’s disgusting to watch how they climb to grief-stricken relatives with idiotic questions, how their grief and tears are shown in a close-up Truly the media work completely moral. The amateurish arguments of people very far from aviation about the causes of air crashes and what needs to be done are even more annoying. it can be seen that both the IAC representatives and the president of the airline, to put it mildly, vaguely understand what they are talking about) And they always try to transfer the arrows to the crew However, the crew was assigned to be extreme at all times, nothing can be done about it. In this particular case, it’s very likely that the elevator was temporarily jammed - there were already such cases on the 737 Boeing - in the 90s only in the USA two 737s crashed due to the failure of the power steering and see it was only a few years later when the plane with such a defect managed to land up. Then it turned out that sometimes, due to the temperature difference when it is lowered from the echelon, the power steering drives the wheels and wedges, and it’s impossible to do anything at a speed of less than 300 knots (480 km). The Americans then changed the hydraulics on their planes, and Kazan at that time was in Uganda and not the fact that these improvements were made there. Well, the fact that now pilots are very poorly able to pilot manually is a fact. And we have more operators than pilots over the hill, they know how to use automation but if it fails, then, as a rule, an accident occurs - not so long ago the Koreans put the 777th Boeing in Los Angeles due to a malfunction of the traction control unit - this is really funny for the pilots of my generation. This is the flip side of scientific progress and computerization.
        2. askort154
          askort154 23 November 2013 13: 54
          0
          vaf ... Sasha, welcome!

          Seryozha, mutually! True, he was late. He left. Yes, and the time difference.
          As for the plane crashes - earlier this was "hushed up", I think correctly.
          Now the press, as if looking forward to such events, all day
          procrastinate the "hot information" brought by the magpie on the tail. Stupid, not professional,
          not realizing that millions of people are potential passengers. And someone’s
          interests in the investigations have always been and will be present, but we can read between the lines. The main thing is to obtain reliable information from objective control tools, and not journalistic tinsel.

    3. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 14: 12
      +8
      Quote: AlexA
      The pilot gave gas and removed the chassis. But the stabilizer action is NOT FIXED. Boeing engines are below the center of mass and center of pressure.


      The same drew attention to this, but there is a very big BUT:

      1. You didn’t see the films and I didn’t see, but the IAC specialist reports.
      2. What you write is true only in theory and for airplanes either with an overhead stabilizer or with engines with afterburner operation.
      In all other cases, you will be gaining a pancake with a vertical height of 3-5 m / s no more, especially since the landing gear and flaps were cleaned from 30 to 15.
      3. In order to create a scaling moment with a pitch angle of 25 grams, it is necessary to try to pull the horns towards you very significantly, and in order not to sit on the Torsion, you must first work out the stabilizer to the cabling to the maximum (as I always did in window dressing, when after the passage above the audience at a very low altitude it was necessary to soar up a candle).
      4. The fact that the pitch pitch was unambiguous, because leaving for the second round at a speed of 250 ended in dumping at a speed of 225 km / h.
      Count what should be the available overload?
      Yes, Bobik would have crumbled right away.
      However, they say that he scored as much as 700 meters, with a circle height of 400 meters?
      Conclusion - the first statements of the IAC "led" to the fact that the version about 100% non-professionalism of the crew was confirmed (IAC covered the causal places so that they would not blow it), but then they "thought" and decided to soften it a little, because. all the other small companies can start to "wool" and .. well-being (in the form of regular decisions, renewals and permits) can stop .. and this is allowed at the bottom .. that's why "official versions" are born - suddenly, out of nowhere, it appeared. .well, and further in the sense "is about an unexpected pitch-up moment.
  23. vlad_krimean
    vlad_krimean 21 November 2013 10: 58
    +2
    The absence or damage to voice recorders, the direction of the aircraft crew at the peak, the aboard the head of the FSB in Tatarstan and the eldest son of the head of the republic. My opinion is a planned action. Maybe before a collision in the cockpit Allah- akbar was yelling ???
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 18: 31
        +3
        Quote: Bort Radist
        but negotiations with the tower where.


        Boris, hello! And with them everything is different, i.e. as we have in the .. "radio silence" mode. If the PIC, after clearing the approach and receiving the conditions and clearance for the approach by the threshold number (end0, will no longer communicate, then it is not necessary.
        This is our RBZ and RSP "mumbles" the distance to the runway and prompts "higher-lower right-left", but the citizens do not ... there is ICAO .. you understand wassat all by decision of the commander V.S. request
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 21 November 2013 18: 39
          +2
          Seryoz, Boris hello ....................
          1. VAF
            VAF 21 November 2013 20: 01
            +2
            Quote: Alex 241
            hello.


            Hello Sasha! Well, everything is actually the same as what I wrote above .. word for word ... ICAO "it is" is ICAO crying
            But after that, ours are already "processing" our FAPs .... from reading which .. you really want to howl.
            Where are our old and good OPP, NPP, NShS recourse
  24. nod739
    nod739 21 November 2013 11: 08
    +4
    Quote: Dazdranagon
    Operate aircraft after Uganda ... Well this is how much you need to be an avaricious creature ... Only money-money-money ...

    and then they say industry is in our opera, there’s nowhere to work, the aircraft industry is bending, single-industry towns are bending,
    and hell, the law will take that type: First. the fleet should consist of 80% of the domestic aviation industry, Second: the remaining 20% ​​can be bought from manufacturers, and not from anyone
    - 80 and 20 is like a finger to the sky, but in general, the essence
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 21 November 2013 14: 31
      +4
      Yes, it's all good, just imagine what the price of tickets will be? Indeed, effective managers will not reduce their bonuses, and the cost of equipment will increase. Guess three times who will pay.
      That's right the man said. Nefig fly small a / c. I rarely fly myself. 3-5 times per year. But if for long distances, I always take Transaero tickets. Large a / c, good planes and pilots for cool. In the Far East I fly only Aeroflot operators. And even then I never take tickets to CAT, only Vladavia, they had strict flight safety, as in Dalavia. Yes, and many of them have pilots from Dalavia. True, when I had to fly to Nikolaevsk, I had to use the services of Khabarovsk Airlines. These flights (three pieces of the Yak-40, An-24 and An-26 in passenger performance) are quite difficult to forget. The condition of the planes is shabby; in An-24, the sheathing from the bulkheads hung in some places. Not to mention the squeezed seats. But he reassured himself that these were the remains of Dalavia. Yes, and my father is aware that they carry out all routine safety work. So, even if it’s not with conveniences and nerves, you’ll fly.
  25. Bishop
    Bishop 21 November 2013 11: 22
    +9
    The fallen Boeing air traffic jam is like a belated “hello” to our government, which has lost its reality, from the “luxurious” Kazan Universiade-2013.
  26. july
    july 21 November 2013 11: 39
    +1
    Quote: AlexA
    It is hoped that the answers will be received in the subsequent analysis of the testimony of all registrars and fragments of the aircraft.

    It is possible to hope, but not for us, for their leadership and this entire gop company, the task is not in the search for truth, but in the search for switchmen. Guess now what we will be voiced.
  27. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 21 November 2013 11: 50
    +8
    <<< When, in the opinion of the airline's management, Boeing finally turned into a "second-hand aircraft", it was sold to Uganda. It would seem that after using the plane on Ugandan airlines it should have been the end of Boeing's "career". However, Uganda Airlines also decided to make money on a fairly used aircraft, and after five years of intensive operation sold it .... It is noteworthy that the Boeing used by Tatarstan Airlines has already given signals that its resource is by no means unlimited.> >>
    He was simply outraged by an interview on TV of a figure (obviously this is a representative of the IAC), who, speaking about the results of a preliminary study of the "black box" of a crashed Boeing, immediately stated that there is no such thing as an old plane, there is a concept of serviceable or unusable! It is because of such figures - the lobbyists of Boeing, Airbus and others of the foreign aircraft industry, including their aviation junk, entrenched in all structures of the civilian sector of the aviation industry and ditching the domestic production of civil aviation for this, we will continue to fly on "usable" imported shit and again and again after the next air tragedy to listen to explanations that technology is here and what has to do with it, the "human factor" is to blame, especially since you can't ask him! That is, liberalists - market-makers in the civil aviation sector of Russia have created all the conditions not for the safety of air passengers, but in order to make a profit in accordance with the laws of the market at ANY PRICE, to squeeze out as much BABL as possible! GREEDE rules people's lives!
    1. Cynic
      Cynic 21 November 2013 12: 13
      +5
      Quote: Goldmitro
      that there is no such thing as an old airplane; there is a concept of usable or unfit!

      Sorry, but he's right!
      But who said that this Boeing was fit for use?
      The fact that he poorly took off poorly and before this case he did not prove it!
      In one of the programs on TV sounded _ This board was not allowed abroad! Having obviously flown there and sat down, from there he would not have been able to fly out! DO NOT RELEASE!
      And we have _ ALL NORMAL! What no one was aware of? And how many more of these flying potential coffins in Russia carry people?
      By the way, like this Boeing was on lease.
      1. Goldmitro
        Goldmitro 21 November 2013 14: 49
        +2
        <<< Cynic
        Sorry, but he's right! >>>
        I agree! Formally, today there is no such thing as "old" as an independent one. It must necessarily be included in the concept of "fit or not fit for service" and entail a comprehensive thorough check of the technical condition of the aircraft before making a decision on suitability! But this
        verification requires serious expenses, and in the conditions of our liberal uncontrolled market with its squeezing of profits at any cost it is cheaper to just get a stamp "usable", anyway, no one controls it! And if something happens, the tragedy can always be attributed to the human factor! And our compensation for victims cannot be compared with what Western carriers pay in such cases !, which also DOES NOT INCREASE spending money on SECURITY! Therefore, imported junk flies with fictitious certificates of validity and is managed and maintained by poorly trained (again, in order to save money) personnel! And here it would be very useful to introduce such a concept as "old" into the documents on the technical condition of the aircraft, which would put a barrier on the way of GREEDY, ready to carry people on air coffins and earn money even from the deaths of people!
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 21 November 2013 16: 34
          +2
          Quote: Goldmitro
          And here it would be very useful to introduce such a concept as "old" into the documents on the technical condition of the aircraft,

          Yeah _ tighten, strain, force, etc.
          If the guilty answer, then no one will have to strain. Fifteen at least for the loss of life (from call to call), plus the complete confiscation of property. There are few who wish.
          You can say _ And zits-chairmen? Real owners are always known. There is nothing secret in our transparent world.
      2. 11111mail.ru
        11111mail.ru 21 November 2013 18: 18
        +3
        Quote: Cynic
        and who said that this Boeing was usable?
        The fact that he poorly took off poorly and before this case sat down does not prove this

        Back in 1978, they studied NIAS-78 (instruction to the aviation engineering service). That's where Boegotovy was called a serviceable plane (helicopter), on which all the work stipulated by the regulations was completed, filled with fuel, special liquids, equipped according to the task and having a RESOURCE RESOURCE. I quote from memory, but about the RESIDUE of the resource, so this is a defining concept!
        1. Cynic
          Cynic 21 November 2013 20: 02
          0
          Quote: 11111mail.ru
          Here, the operational aircraft (helicopter), on which ... and the RESIDUAL WITH A RESIDUE, was called BOYOTOVYM.

          There is such an expression _ I would be glad to go to Paradise, but no sins!
          This is to say that, at a minimum, it should be serviceable .
          Yes, and all calculations imply normal operation in accordance with all the rules and regulations.
          By age, this car is the first!
          First delivery 28.02.1990/XNUMX/XNUMX Southwest
    2. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 16: 59
      +5
      Quote: Goldmitro
      He was simply outraged by an interview on TV of a figure (obviously this is a representative of the IAC), who, speaking about the results of a preliminary study of the "black box" of a crashed Boeing, immediately stated that there is no such thing as an old plane, there is a concept of serviceable or unusable!


      I beg your pardon, but this, as you put it, "a figure from the IAC" is absolutely right, but simply put it not very correctly, because. this specific "disease" of many aviators, because. you tell in a specific language seemingly elementary things. but they don't understand you.

      During manufacturing, any aircraft is "hung with terms" (which are obtained during tests) in the form of DESIGNATED TIMES (resource-hours and landings and calendars of years, months and days).
      Within the APPOINTED, the overhaul periods are also established (all the same).
      For example, 15 thousand flight hours, 6 thousand landings within 15 years.

      Then there is a "stretch", because. it is not known what will come out earlier Resource or Calendar (it is always more profitable for the operator to come out earlier Calendar, because it is easier to extend it, but if the Resource "falls out", then it is only CWR.
      But, during the passage of the CWR and in general during the operation of V.S. - for the center section) and after the repair, a new Solution comes out with new terms.

      Our longest-living is An-12, because he already has cars with a Resolution of 50 thousand hp and 50 years of operation 9no with a phased extension).

      But here the service life is exactly in Passenger traffic strictly .. LIMITED!
      1. andrei332809
        andrei332809 21 November 2013 17: 06
        +3
        Quote: vaf
        Our longest-living is An-12,

        hi Ser hi
        Well, why did you remind about this miracle. remembered, and immediately froze and shook, and everything creaked around wassat
        1. VAF
          VAF 21 November 2013 17: 16
          +4
          Quote: andrei332809
          Well, why did you remind about this miracle. remembered, and immediately froze and shook, and everything creaked around


          Hi Andrew! Yes, a normal car (by the way, cars with a direct wing ... that's you good ).
          And you can "stuff" so much into it that .... and a ton of cargo from above is wink 3-5 pieces of greenery to the crew fellow
          And you can extend it .. to infinity, that's just not with us, but in Ukraine .. with us .. you can stay without pants lol
          1. andrei332809
            andrei332809 21 November 2013 17: 26
            +3
            Quote: vaf
            And you can "stuff" so much into it,

            We had our own squadron at the factory. And it was with these machines. I never flew on it sober (always with me a can of alcohol) and with a sober crew drinks
  28. AlexA
    AlexA 21 November 2013 12: 14
    +1
    Colleagues, I fully agree with all the speeches against the air junk and the prohibitive greed of the owners of airlines. But, let's be realistic. Even if - oh, a miracle! - Tomorrow the right decision will be made, the existing aircraft will be in operation for quite some time, and they will be managed by honest, but not very trained pilots retrained from navigators. And let's do what we really can for now. Therefore, once again I allow myself to ask the operating pilots to critically comment on my timid attempts to understand the situation. Maybe at least one of the current pilots will help in difficult times.
    Thanks.
  29. 31231
    31231 21 November 2013 13: 01
    +1
    Rest in peace.
  30. screw cutter
    screw cutter 21 November 2013 13: 09
    +3
    It’s a pity for people, they bought inexpensive tickets to save money. It’s a pity for the pilots, they flew as best they could for their salaries (those who could fly better went to cooler airlines and foreign flights). But the owners of these so-called planes have no excuse. crew error or technical malfunction is not an excuse for the innocence of the owners of the airline. I suppose that the maintenance of the fleet of these "owners" and the maintenance of the yachts is more expensive than the maintenance of the entire fleet.
    1. Ptah
      Ptah 21 November 2013 15: 46
      +2
      they bought inexpensive tickets from savings.

      Maybe I will surprise you unspeakably, but having "experience comparing prices" the difference with the cost of tickets on the same routes as "foreigners" is sometimes quite significant.
      It is ALWAYS more profitable to fly from the airports of Moscow and St. Petersburg on foreign sides. This is if you do not order tickets long before departure.
      Although we are talking today "about baryzhnik in aviation", the high cost of tickets may be precisely due to the lack of healthy competition among carriers.
      It is impossible to allow "foreign" ones on domestic flights, but it is necessary to enlarge and equip companies with new domestic aircraft. Well, there must be the will of the state.
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 18: 40
        +3
        Quote: Ptah
        It is ALWAYS more profitable to fly from the airports of Moscow and St. Petersburg on foreign sides. This is if you do not order tickets long before departure.


        Absolutely, +! And if it’s also with a long term and round-trip, though with a fixed date, then it turns out generally free of charge, compared with niche companies. Only correct, clean foreigners do not fly inside the country. Do you understand the 5th amendment.
        And as for the high cost, it's all so simple - it used to be a single complex, but now the airport is separate. The airline is separate. gas station separately, MTO separately, but the price of kerosene .... it's just like gasoline and gas
        People’s property, the first in the world’s place for mining, and so on .. all crap for people. Who grabs everything and be again fellow Glory to the Sun, the mastermind and organizer of our victories wassat
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 21 November 2013 18: 45
          +2
          Hello Seryozha, the last two times he went to Peter Sapsanom. In 2009 he flew out Watermelon, was detained for 40 minutes.
  31. USNik
    USNik 21 November 2013 13: 09
    0
    Quote: AlexA
    ... The dive continues, and for 20 SECONDS no attempts were made by the pilot to remove the aircraft from the peak ... Obviously, the delay in the actions of the stabilizer. But why this delay happened is incomprehensible. Either the pilot did not take into account the inertia of the machine, or he lost orientation, whether something is jammed.

    Well painted. I also tend to two options for disaster. The first one is that the 1st and 2nd pilots pulled the helm toward themselves, but as a result of the occurrence of the wedge, this did not work, but how could the BOTH of the helm simultaneously fail? The second option is a banal overload and its poor fastening, it just came off and shifted the center of mass to the nose of the aircraft.
    1. smersh70
      smersh70 21 November 2013 13: 49
      +1
      Quote: USNik
      that the 1st and 2nd pilots pulled the helm on themselves,

      but what unless there is another way how to raise the height of the plane .... or throw the handle forward ... as they do with a corkscrew ......
  32. screw cutter
    screw cutter 21 November 2013 13: 24
    +1
    Something needs to be corrected at the conservatory already. Actual laws and the inevitability of punishment are needed. I recall a recent car accident with a bus and a kamaz died in comparison with the crew (one driver against 6 crew members) there are a lot more people. Reason: technical condition ( brakes) and thirst for profit (overload and cheap driver). The control system must be changed and tightened. Raise the salary, but the requirements must be stricter. And most importantly, the inevitability of punishment throughout the vertical, otherwise all sins are used to write off the switchman. I think the President of Tatarstan draw the right conclusions from this tragedy and let the earth rest in peace for the untimely departed.
  33. George
    George 21 November 2013 13: 25
    +2
    Condolences to the families and friends of the deceased.
  34. Kashchei
    Kashchei 21 November 2013 13: 57
    +2
    Plant the shoemaker to bake pies, he will start to put such soles on you !!! So the author of the article - without knowing anything in aviation (especially in piloting) has already found a reason - their body shook there! more tickets sold! the steering wheel is jammed! .... Find and read carefully the cause of the Perm crash of Boeing - if you understand something
  35. Not served
    Not served 21 November 2013 14: 08
    +1
    That's how he fell ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=McGM3bjiIs8
    No words and compensations can replace the tragically dead ... Let the earth rest in peace. Everyone is equal there .... Maybe you can’t say that someone is sorry more, but the children are to blame for something ...
    1. Volodin
      21 November 2013 18: 23
      +2
      Video to a plane crash in Kazan is irrelevant
  36. Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 21 November 2013 14: 20
    +3
    Kavardak in Russia continues. There is no one to put things in order.
  37. Yarosvet
    Yarosvet 21 November 2013 15: 10
    +2
    -------------------------------------------------- ---
    1. Ptah
      Ptah 21 November 2013 15: 59
      0
      I repeat that I flew to Moscow at the end of August with this very board. I ordered a ticket through the company's website in three days.
      Takeoff, flight, landing were normal. That the plane (cabin) is in bad condition - I confirm.
      So there are many who wish a happy birthday.
      When should RosAviation be congratulated on the "Onset of Sustainable Recovery"?
      1. VAF
        VAF 21 November 2013 16: 21
        +3
        Quote: Ptah
        That the plane (cabin) is in bad condition - I confirm.


        This is exactly what is called "another loud hat" (for the plant of the next air traffic jam from over the hill) LOWCOSTER wassat
        1. Ptah
          Ptah 21 November 2013 16: 43
          +1
          Quote: vaf
          This is exactly what is called "another loud hat"

          What is called a "hat"?
          Do you think that I am a supporter of "foreign cars" in Russia, or am I lobbying the interests of Western manufacturers? Not at all!
          Shouldn't the advertised "Superjet" occupy exactly this niche of medium-haul aircraft?
          Maybe the demand for them exceeds the supply (they rivet for everyone except their own). The same leasing system, albeit a state one. loans for companies. And the money in the country and the manufacturer is expanding production, and other "+".

          Maybe you were touched by my words about the state of the "interior". What I saw, then I say, there is something to compare. If before that I flew from St. Petersburg to Kazan (an intermediate port to Yekaterinburg) on ​​an Airbus, it is not an example of "well-groomed" and looks newer.
          1. VAF
            VAF 21 November 2013 17: 51
            +2
            Quote: Ptah
            What is called a "hat"?


            "Hat" is a ride on the ears, wishful thinking, promises and wishes, justification for inaction, -20s-30s, etc. etc. wassat
            Namely, in your comment, this refers specifically to the phrase about the plane and the cabin.
            It's just that you probably don't follow the aviation industry and the deeds of its managers, and here the other day the Head of the Aerojlot came in and enthusiastically told on TV what a wonderful miracle LOUKOSTER is, though the cabin will be cleaned once a day, and not before each flight, plus it will be very everything should be done quickly (that is, nothing should be done, but only to sign in magazines and cards), well, you will carry all the luggage in your arms and load and unload it yourself, but the step of the seats will decrease in the cabin, because you need to fill more people ", and they will not be fed and watered, and so on.
            About Super-Bobik .. no need, this is a sore point for me.

            Therefore, your words did not hurt me at all, but on the contrary, +! drinks
            1. Ptah
              Ptah 21 November 2013 19: 04
              +3
              Yes, Sergei. It is not in my habit to follow the aviation industry, as well as new trends in the railway industry. My preferences and prof. duties are water elements. I confine myself to buying a ticket, registering and ... Therefore, I often use a "piece of hardware" where time is not running out. And my legs on the train do not rest on the front seats.
              I read about "LOCHO of bonfires". Thanks for the direction. good What to say. Vitya Savelyev dreams of plywood biplanes, albeit gigantic in size, with a bunch of boxes independently carried by gentlemen with their ladies' hats and gilded lorgnets instead of lenses. "Dobrolet" and well-wishers, bea ...

              And that, as he imagined himself, a two-meter fellow, running across the field to the luggage compartment, carrying a fiber suitcase in front of him, at the same time trampling down the grannies and screaming Mademoiselles who fall under their feet, at the same time elbows the gaping "gentlemen" with his elbows. I run into the salon, break out the armrest of the chair next to the aisle, otherwise I simply cannot fit into others, with a reduced distance, and I take out a fried chicken from my bosom, a jar of tea and boiled testicles. A little later, in flight, I will open the Pinocchio lemonade and Iwashi in oil canned food with a piece of a chair. So what? After all, they are hunting, they feed for extra. fee, and so I "saved" a little and remembered the pioneer-tourist childhood. laughing

              Here is such a "holocaust" in a single episode.
              Now I understand - HAT. Large, wrinkled and straw.
              Quote from a good movie - "Throw it to the cormorants. Let the full heap" laughing
  38. Penek
    Penek 21 November 2013 15: 26
    +1
    Quote: Cynic
    Quote: Goldmitro
    that there is no such thing as an old airplane; there is a concept of usable or unfit!

    Sorry, but he's right!
    But who said that this Boeing was fit for use?
    The fact that he poorly took off poorly and before this case he did not prove it!
    In one of the programs on TV sounded _ This board was not allowed abroad! Having obviously flown there and sat down, from there he would not have been able to fly out! DO NOT RELEASE!
    And we have _ ALL NORMAL! What no one was aware of? And how many more of these flying potential coffins in Russia carry people?
    By the way, like this Boeing was on lease.


    Do not trust the zombie creator.
    In the morning, this board made the flight Kazan-Yerevan-Kazan. True, with a different crew.
    1. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 16: 32
      +2
      Quote: Penek
      In the morning, this board made the flight Kazan-Yerevan-Kazan. True, with a different crew.


      First: it characterizes only that this airline has real crews (meaning fully trained).

      Iron on that and iron, which would periodically refuse (new planes are fighting the same, unfortunately).

      Therefore, there is a section in the Airplane Flight Manual "Special cases in flight", which must be worked out before AUTOMATION (in the Air Force, at least this is done, and even during the preliminary training period, time is officially allocated for simulations on aviation equipment, with mandatory verification by an instructor and later, during the readiness control, the pilots (crews) are additionally checked theoretically.

      "Citizens" do not have such a thing (only somewhere on paper), but everything is left at the mercy of the ship's commander (V.S.) wants, does, does not want ... well, it will do.
  39. saber
    saber 21 November 2013 15: 38
    0
    here explain to me why a 7-year-old Japanese woman is called auto-trash, and a 23-year-old American is FLYING ???
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 21 November 2013 15: 41
      +2
      Because a car is not a plane. The aircraft is much more reliable in its design and automation.
      1. saber
        saber 21 November 2013 15: 44
        0
        but when a car malfunctions, fifty people do not die! but horse restrictions
    2. atalef
      atalef 21 November 2013 15: 46
      +6
      Quote: Saber
      here explain to me why a 7-year-old Japanese woman is called auto-trash, and a 23-year-old American is FLYING ???

      The rabbit has been living for 2 years, and the tortoise 100, - this is where the real problem
    3. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 16: 38
      +4
      Quote: Saber
      here explain to me why a 7 year old Japanese woman is called auto trash


      Because for her you "have" only the tax and that's it, but "masalet" is a ladybug that gives "green milk" all the time, because. he requires a periodic TS, but he is on lease and therefore he must be driven to the base of the "owner" (and you think that he will be driven there lol ), so "everything is done" by "companies-lamburn" controlled by ....... but with the papers about the allegedly done forms, you again go to the place where I already wrote above in the comments and .... you get the cherished " chikuhi "and .. forward and with a song .. cut cabbage wassat
      1. saber
        saber 21 November 2013 17: 17
        0
        sad +100500 to you ...
  40. saber
    saber 21 November 2013 15: 50
    0
    call me an idealist, but it seems to me that the matter is different - they don’t have a lot to do with the import of cars. By the way, I go to 20 Japanese women and for 12 years she never let me down
  41. Nightfly
    Nightfly 21 November 2013 16: 09
    0
    That is the will of the Lord!
  42. Romanychby
    Romanychby 21 November 2013 16: 09
    +2
    Earth rest in peace to all the dead. I would like to know the real reasons for such terrible consequences.
  43. homosum20
    homosum20 21 November 2013 16: 40
    +7
    In Russia, the time of amateurs and profane. This started as a Chubais from the top echelon (the so-called owners of enterprises — oligarchs), naturally, it went down — the top echelon of management (for example, the Cherepovets Metallurgical Combine is led by a team that previously managed vim bel dan) —the middle echelon - performers. Because the subordinate should not be more competent than the boss, this is the rule of American management.
    Just aviation - such a place where this position is thrown primarily at the lower level - at the level of flight personnel. Actually, the top is no better. Just not so noticeable. Hence the loss-making. (How can it be profitable met. Combine, which is led by people who previously led the production of the yoke of the edge?)
    And not only in aviation. Sevestal has been unprofitable all this year. This is despite the fact that it also saves on everything. (a specific example - repair funds. There are more than 300 serious cranes at the enterprise. In metallurgy, cranes are part of the technology. The service life of a crane is 25 years. It is easy to calculate that in order to maintain the crane fleet, it is necessary to change about 10 cranes per year. Over the past 2 years, not a single one . And then, when a ladle of metal is poured over the heads, this is also a "human factor")
    Time of temporary workers. The only way that I see is full nationalization of everything and responsibility for fulfilling obligations under the laws of wartime.
    1. kaktus
      kaktus 21 November 2013 17: 20
      +3
      Everything is unprofitable for our managers. Even if the biggest "deficit" is lying under their feet, it will be unprofitable for them to pick up fool
      1. G02.
        G02. 21 November 2013 18: 36
        +2
        In Russia, all power is such, stupid people are highly productive, sit in an ass chair immediately takes root :)
        1. G02.
          G02. 21 November 2013 21: 03
          0
          If you correct, correct correctly what kind of people, where they are from. VEGETABLES brainless :)
  44. ULxaw86
    ULxaw86 21 November 2013 17: 20
    0
    details of the state of the aircraft Ruslan Kalimullin (Kazan city):

    He flew today (November 17) with this plane from Kazan to Moscow at 15:20 p.m., landed in Domodedovo as if the plane had a horizon stabilization system, the pilot had difficulty leveling the vessel before landing, on contact with the ground, it brought us a little bit, but the pilot did it and I crossed himself.
    1. VAF
      VAF 21 November 2013 18: 00
      +7
      Quote: ULxaw86
      He flew today (November 17) with this plane from Kazan to Moscow at 15:20 p.m., landed in Domodedovo as if the plane had a horizon stabilization system, the pilot had difficulty leveling the vessel before landing, on contact with the ground, it brought us a little bit, but the pilot coped, and I crossed myself.


      There is no such system of horizon stabilization and the plane does not land on the horizon. but with a decrease and with an angle of attack, which, as one approaches the ground and decreases in speed, increases.
      How did he determine from the salon. that the pilot had difficulty leveling.
      Not skidded, but became a nose in the strip, i.e. after touching the runway with the main pillars of the aircraft, he removed with his foot (rudder) lateral drift (wind correction).

      Read less crap. That is why I am very tough with the statements of such "senses" - I was like ... I flew wassat , you are my friend or girlfriend did not fly .. YOU CARRY, and flew the PLANE, which was piloted by the pilot soldier
  45. polkownik1
    polkownik1 21 November 2013 18: 43
    +6
    Several questions without discussing specific personalities. 1. The approach was carried out using the autopilot. The crew turned it off only during the go-around process, when it became clear that the autopilot had brought it NOT THERE! Why couldn't the autopilot get the plane onto the glide path? Why was the landing system dispatcher silent while seeing inadmissible deviations? 2. Departure - delivery of full turns - flaps and landing gear are extended - and suddenly the pitch is +25 degrees, although the crew did not immediately intervene! The IAC claims that the pitch-up moment from the thrust of the engines ... Yes, the plane could lift its nose. But almost instantly, in 5-6 seconds and 25 degrees? Bullshit! All my 25 years of flying on 15 types are protesting! 3. The crew intervened and shifted the plane to the horizon. So - I saw the readings of the attitude indicator and the variometer. Why then self-destructive pressure "from yourself"? Or maybe they didn't press? The MAC strangely shut up at this point, indistinctly mumbling about some "control actions". And the last thing. The Minister of Transport today, at a meeting with Medvedev, said that the plane was in good order. Has the commission already made a conclusion? Have you already listened to the voice recorder? "Everything is not so, guys ...", as V. Vysotsky sang ...
    1. VAF
      VAF 22 November 2013 07: 56
      +2
      Quote: polkownik1
      Departure — full revolutions — flaps and landing gear released — and suddenly a pitch of +25 degrees, although the crew did not intervene immediately! IAC claims - the converging moment from the engine thrust ... Yes, the plane could raise its nose. But almost instantly, in 5-6 seconds and 25 degrees? Dog nonsense! All my 25 years of flying on 15 types are protesting!


      Only +! soldier
      I wrote the same at the very beginning of the tape on the "theory" expressed by one member of the forum.
      And all komenty and conclusions only +! soldier
      Yours faithfully, drinks
  46. drokos
    drokos 21 November 2013 18: 51
    +2
    1. From the point of view of safety, no matter how old the plane is - at least 10, at least 50. The only thing left from the car that left the factory in the 90s was the "body", the rest - wings, engines, wiring, etc. there are already different .. Board No. 1 of the USA has been in operation since 90, and for another 5 years it will fly at least ...
    The age of the machine in itself does not matter, it is important how it is serviced ... there are problems with this (qualification of technicians, availability of counterfeit spare parts, etc.), but if the machine is poorly maintained, even if it is killed straight from the factory, they will be killed quickly. ..

    2. Regarding the reasons ... We have little evidence of the flight ... so we just guess ... :)

    The plane approaches the landing, for some reason it is impossible to continue, the decision is made to leave for the second circle - the dispatcher sets the height to 500, the pilot takes the helm over himself, increases the engine thrust, and here the most interesting begins ... The dispatcher set the height to 500 , while the IAC report says that the plane reached a height of 700 ... I believe that the crew did not keep track of the fact that the plane lifted its nose, and because the speed was already low, they just wanted to land ... Engines roar but the thrust is not directed horizontally, the horizontal speed continues to fall, and the plane goes up, it takes a few seconds, the crew understands that something is wrong - the speed drops, the nose is pulled up and the steering wheel is pulled away sharply, which leads to a low speed compartment to dive, then they could pull the helm toward themselves, but this did not save them ... :(
    And it all happened very quickly - they reached a height of 700 very quickly ... From leaving the second round to falling - 45 seconds, a decrease - 20, i.e. they reached the altitude of 700 (from an altitude of 150-200 somewhere) in 25 seconds ... 20 m / s vertical speed, I don’t know how it is according to the RLE, but it seems a bit much ...
    + night, i.e. maybe they didn’t have natural landmarks, and by instruments to understand what was wrong, they couldn’t, or they could late
    Something like this ...
    1. shoemaker
      shoemaker 21 November 2013 22: 21
      +2
      It turns out interesting: First, the pilots turn on the automatic guidance system on the landing strip, and then, apparently, put a bypass on the fuel analysis device. They turn off both engines and they crashed into the ground with their noses. In general, it seems that the fuel mixture had a high condensate content. Passengers who flew before this flight say that there was a high degree of vibration during landing, that is, at low speeds. That is, if the plane was serviceable, then again the matter is in fuel.
      In general, this story is like a detective. A blame everything on drunk pilots.
  47. Witch
    Witch 21 November 2013 18: 57
    0
    Quote: voldmis


    at 300 percent, there is no crime that he would not risk, at least under pain of the gallows. - C.Marx


    These words alone belong to the British trade union leader Dunning, and not Marx ...
  48. Taoist
    Taoist 21 November 2013 20: 04
    +2
    The fact that in our country amateurs act as experts has not surprised me for a long time ... The main thing is revenge on the blizzard with a confident tone.
    Based on the information on the IAC website
    During the approach, the crew failed to perform a standard approach in accordance with the established regulatory documentation scheme. Assessing the position of the aircraft relative to the runway as "non-stop", the crew reported to the dispatcher and began to go to the second circle in TOGA mode (Take Off / Go Around. Take-off / Go to the second circle). At the same time, one of the two autopilots involved in the approach process was disconnected and the further flight was carried out in manual mode.
    Engines went to a mode close to take-off. The crew removed flaps from 30 ° to 15 °.
    Under the influence of the cabling moment from the thrust of the engines, the plane went into a climb and reached a pitch angle of about 25 °. The instrument speed began to decrease. The crew cleaned the chassis. Since the beginning of the go-around, until this time, the crew has not taken any active actions to control the aircraft.
    After reducing the speed from 150 to 125 knots, the crew began controlling actions with the helm column to transfer the aircraft to a dive, which led to the cessation of climb, the beginning of the reduction of the aircraft and the increase in instrument speed. The maximum angles of attack during the flight did not exceed operational limitations.
    The plane, reaching a height of 700 m, began an intensive dive with a pitch angle that reached the end of the flight -75 ° (end of recording).
    The plane collided with the ground at high speed (more than 450 km / h) and a large negative pitch angle.
    From the moment of the start, the go-around to the end of the recording took about 45 seconds, the decline took about 20 seconds.
    Power plants worked until the collision of the aircraft with the ground. One-time teams characterizing the failure of systems and units of the aircraft and engines according to the results of preliminary analysis have not been identified.


    It seems to me that this is precisely the failure of technology ... And it is precisely the mechanics. We had a very similar case to the 42m. Due to metal fatigue, the boar of the parking lock for the elevator burst. The wheel stalled in flight. Fortunately, not in the extreme position ... The crew was able to manipulate the flaps and thrust to emergency landing the car ... Here, judging by the picture, the elevator was jammed in the position on the cabling ... By the way, in this case, no backup systems will help ... T. to. reserve the drive and not the steering surfaces themselves ....
  49. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 21 November 2013 21: 02
    +3
    And the State Duma "burned out", I think, because. Responsibly authorized officials of our civil aviation determined: the plane was in good order, 23 years of commercial operation is normal. So why such a commotion in our Senate immediately, they immediately compose a law about the norm of restrictions on the purchase of foreign used aircraft + support and special preferences for operators of Russian aircraft True, they want to "settle" all this by 2017, but so far ..
    1. studentmati
      studentmati 21 November 2013 21: 18
      +3
      Quote: Thunderbolt
      23 years of commercial operation is normal.


      Hi Aleksey!

      I translate it on myself, to drive any car of 1990, even foreign cars - this is an absolute necessity. In aviation, such products should by no means carry passengers!

      Quote: Thunderbolt
      And the State Duma "burned out"


      The State Duma received its 250 rubles and is "not steaming": the salary is on, the buffet works, the trade union issues tickets to the "scarce" concerts, ... And why are people puffing and steaming? Life goes on!....
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 21 November 2013 21: 50
        +5
        I'm glad to see you drinks !
        Quote: studentmati
        Get behind the wheel of any car manufactured in 1990, even foreign cars — this is an absolute must. In aviation, such products should by no means carry passengers!
        The old car snorted with a carburetor, and even stalled. I rolled it to the side of the road, opened the hood and dig in for pleasure. But with the sky, such a "number" will not work. I think this accident is an indicator of the state of affairs in civil aviation. After all, which side is not look, some jambs.
        Quote: studentmati
        the trade union issues tickets for "scarce" concerts
        laughing In the old days (dashing bully ) there was a live broadcast of the meetings. I always watched when I could, although I was a schoolboy. If I had done such a broadcast channel now, I would definitely subscribe .. wassat Honestly, there are theaters of one actor, and there are senates of one party. It's the same song fellow !
  50. torhammer
    torhammer 21 November 2013 21: 04
    -1
    Why is the version with targeted destruction of the aircraft not particularly considered? I am aware that the son of the president of Tatarstan, Minikhanov, was on board, and if I’m not mistaken, the chief or a senior officer of the FSB! I remember when the plane crashed with Troshev on board, it was also said that the plane, which had been operated in China for a long time, and the host of the program, Vremya Andreeva, gave such nonsense in line with the Goebels propaganda, the more lies, the more they believe: in general, they say: the plane was so old that parts of it were pouring from it on GDP ... it’s good to breed it already, on my shares the second case of the elimination of important or prominent persons where the cause is an old, crash-like plane, someone needs to change the record, otherwise it stuck ... Moreover, in the frames of the video recorder, it is clear that the plane crashed due to zero speed, what kind of crew error is it? By the way, when will design bureaus begin to create planes with a rescue capsule?