Military Review

Was Lenin a German spy?

330
Was Lenin a German spy?

After writing the book “Stalin. We remember together. ”I began to very often ask questions ... about Lenin.

Including a similar question asked by the newspaper “Arguments and Facts” as part of its new special project “100 of the main issues of Russia”. The question about Vladimir Ilyich turned out to be №68.

Here is my answer.

“A spy or agent is a person who, for money, performs the task of reconnaissance of another state and realizes that it brings an unconditional benefit to this state. In this sense, Lenin was never a spy.

Vladimir Lenin never carried out any conscious actions that were supposed to benefit only another state. He was not in the service of foreign intelligence services. There is not a single document confirming that Lenin received at least some money from the Germans. No one! However, there is a document confirming that another well-known Russian revolutionary Alexander Parvus received money from Germany: a million rubles to organize a strike in 1916.

But let us formulate the question differently: did Vladimir Ilyich cooperate with foreign intelligence services?

Of course. Only this was cooperation solely for the sake of the victory of the ideas of the socialist revolution. He accepted some support not to help Germany, but to help Russia, as he understood it. The Germans, as well as the British or the Provisional Government, he took advantage of.

In a sense, Lenin and the Germans in 1917 were the beginning of 1918, they were tactical allies. In the spring of 1917, the Germans allowed the train with Lenin and other political émigrés to go to Russia at war with them, so that when they returned to their homeland, the Bolsheviks began to decompose the army there. But then their interests began to diverge. And immediately after the revolution in Germany, in November 1918, Lenin ordered to launch an offensive on those territories which, according to the Brest peace, he himself had given to the Germans. The time of their union is over. "

Some time ago “AIF” published other material with my opinion on this topic. I think that he will be very helpful here.

“Agents of the revolution. Would Vladimir Lenin be a spy for Germany?

Vladimir Lenin's journey with a group of comrades in a “sealed train” from quiet and well-fed Switzerland through Germany to revolutionary Russia, which happened exactly 95 years ago, gave rise to rumors that Ilyich was a German spy.

This trip changed the course of the world stories, still raises many questions. And the main one: who helped Ilyich return to his homeland? In the spring of 1917, Germany was at war with Russia, and throwing a handful of Bolsheviks at the heart of the enemy, who were preaching the defeat of their government in the imperialist war, was to the advantage of the Germans. But not everything is so simple, the writer, historian Nikolai Starikov, the author of the books “Chaos and Revolutions - weapon dollars "," 1917. The solution of the "Russian" revolution "and others.

- If Lenin were a German spy, he would immediately begin to seek a return to Petrograd through Germany. And, of course, I would immediately receive a welcome. But things were different. Recall that little Switzerland, where Ilyich lived at the time, was surrounded by France, Italy, Germany and Austria-Hungary, who were locked in a mortal combat.

There were two options to leave her: through the country - a member of the Entente or through the territory of her opponents. Lenin initially chooses the first. Inessa Armand 5 (18) of March (hereinafter the date in brackets indicates the new style. - Ed.) Receives the following telegram from him: “Dear friend! .. We dream everything about the trip ... I would really like to give you an order in England to find out quiet and true, could i drive through. Shake your hand. Your V. W. ". Between 2 (15) and 6 (19) in March 1917, Lenin telegraphs his fellow Ganetsky in Stockholm, setting out a different plan: drive to Russia under the guise of ... a deaf-mute Swede. And 6 of March, in a letter to V. A. Karpinsky, suggests: “Take the papers in your name to travel to France and England, and I will pass through them through England (and Holland) to Russia. I can wear a wig. ”

For the first time, the mention of Germany as a route appears in the telegram of Ilyich Karpinsky 7 (20) of March - on the 4-th day of the search for options. But soon he confessed in a letter to I. Armand: “It does not come out through Germany”. Isn't all this strange? Vladimir Ilyich cannot agree with the "accomplices" -Germans about the passage through their territory and for a long time invents workarounds: either go "quietly" through England, or in a wig with other people's documents - through France, or pretend to be a deaf-mute Swede ...

Conspiracy "allies"

I am convinced that if by that time there were some secret agreements between Lenin and the German authorities, they are very vague. Otherwise, it would have been difficult to deliver it to Russia initially. The Germans did not expect a successful February coup, did not expect any revolution at all! Because, apparently, they did not prepare any revolution. And who was preparing February 1917? For me, the answer is obvious: the Western "allies" of Russia in the Entente. It was their agents who brought the workers and then the soldiers to the streets of Petrograd, and the English and French ambassadors supervised these events. Everything happened unexpectedly, not only for the Germans, but also for the Bolsheviks. For February, Lenin and his comrades were not necessary, the "Allied" special services were able to organize workers' unrest and soldier riot without their help. But, in order to bring the revolutionary process to the end (that is, the collapse of Russia, which would completely subordinate it to the will of the Atlantic powers), fresh Lenin yeast was required to be thrown into the cauldron.

There is every reason to believe that in March of 1917, it was “allied” intelligence in separate negotiations with the Germans that convinced them not to hinder the passage of the Russian Bolsheviks (that is, representatives of an enemy country who, under the law of wartime, should have been arrested and locked up until the end of the war). And the Germans agreed.

General Erich Ludendorff wrote in his memoirs: “By sending Lenin to Russia, our government assumed a special responsibility. From a military point of view, his journey through Germany had its justification: Russia had to fall into the abyss. ” Learning pleasant newsLenin rejoices. “You may say that the Germans will not give the car.

Let's wager to keep what they give! ”He writes 19 March (1 April) to Inessa Armand. And then - to her: “We have more money for the trip than I thought ... our comrades in Stockholm helped us a lot.” 2 weeks passed between the two messages of the beloved (“through Germany does not come out” and “will give”), and during this time the United States, Britain and Germany decided the fate of Russia. The necessary money (indirectly, through the same Germans and Swedes) was given to the Russian radicals by the Americans, and the British provided non-intervention by the Provisional Government under their control. In Stockholm, where Lenin and his companions arrived after a long journey by train in Germany and then by ferry to Sweden, they received a group visa to Russia in the Russian consulate general. Moreover, the Provisional Government even paid them tickets from Stockholm to their home! At the Finnish railway station in Petrograd, 3 (16), April, revolutionaries were greeted by an honor guard. Lenin made a speech that he ended with the words: “Long live the socialist revolution!” But the new government of Russia did not even think of arresting him ...

Bucks in his bosom

In the same March days, another fiery revolutionary, Leo Trotsky (Bronstein), gathered at his homeland from the USA. Like Vladimir Ilyich, Lev Davidovich received all documents from the Russian consul in New York. 14 (27) March Trotsky with his family departed from New York on the steamer “Christianiafiord”. True, on arrival in Canada, he and several of his comrades briefly removed from the flight. But soon they were allowed to continue on their way - at the request of the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Government, Pavel Milyukov. Amazing request? Not at all, given that Milyukov is a personal friend of Jacob Schiff, an American magnate, the "general sponsor" of several Russian revolutions. During the arrest, by the way, it turned out that Trotsky was a US citizen traveling on a British transit visa and a visa to enter Russia.

And when it was discovered 10 thousand dollars - a huge sum for those times, which he would hardly have earned with fees for newspaper articles alone. But if it was the money for the Russian revolution, then only a tiny fraction of it. Major sums from American bankers were transferred to the necessary accounts of verified people. For Schiff and other US financiers, this was nothing new. They allocated funds to the Social Revolutionaries and Social Democrats in 1905, they also helped those who prepared February. Now is the time to help the most "frostbitten" revolutionaries. By the way, in the case of Trotsky, this help was almost a family affair: the wife of Lev Davidovich, nee Sedov, was the daughter of the rich banker Zhivotovsky - the companion of the bankers Warburg, and those in turn were companions and relatives of Jacob Schiff. ”
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  1. leon-iv
    leon-iv 21 November 2013 08: 47
    +1
    He was a complete asshole. Which, for the sake of power, destroyed the country, deliberately signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc. Writing is even disgusting. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 08: 52
      -21 qualifying.
      I think so too. Destroy their homeland for the benefit of the West could only ub.dok
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 14: 32
          17
          Quote: Yan Radiy
          Well, you and a little funky


          I am looking for sparring anti-Semites, radical Muslims, ultra Christians and other radicals.

          Comrades, I here undertook to arrange a fight club out of stubborn ones, I accept bets repeat
          1. Apologet.Ru
            Apologet.Ru 22 November 2013 00: 26
            0
            hi
            There’s a wonderful movie on this subject -

            And let everyone draw conclusions himself ...
            1. nov_tech.vrn
              nov_tech.vrn 26 November 2013 15: 09
              0
              based on the falsifications created by French intelligence, the Bolsheviks were silent for some reason, the liberals grabbed, like naked by a broom, regrettable that he was floating on a military review, it seemed like the wrong level.
          2. AlNikolaich
            AlNikolaich 22 November 2013 10: 46
            +1
            Quote: Karlsonn
            Comrades, I here undertook to arrange a fight club out of stubborn ones, I accept bets

            good
            Namesake, I'm certainly not an athlete, but if sparring with the radicals, then for! I fight on the collective farm, but for the sake of such a thing I’m ready to catch in the face. And then suddenly I can give myself, then the radicals! Guys, sign up for the club!
          3. Yoshkin Kot
            Yoshkin Kot 26 November 2013 08: 30
            0
            what internationalism in ... e played?
        2. varov14
          varov14 21 November 2013 19: 39
          +4
          Yes, the time of idiots is in full swing. Well done, Ilyich, drew around this entire Western husk around his finger and laid the foundation for the revival of Russia on a new basis, and you are now ... passing through it.
          1. Yoshkin Kot
            Yoshkin Kot 26 November 2013 08: 31
            0
            Yeah, ditching everything that is possible, and do not confuse Sovkovia with Russia
      2. AlNikolaich
        AlNikolaich 21 November 2013 13: 54
        17
        Quote: ivshubarin
        I think so too. Destroy their homeland for the benefit of the West could only ub.dok

        Is this about Gorbachev and Yeltsin?
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 13: 57
          +4
          And about them too
        2. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 22 November 2013 02: 31
          -3
          Your Great Leader, Lenin, laid the foundations for the collapse of the USSR as an amendment to the Constitution on the possibility of republics leaving the Union. Stalin was against it
          1. alicante11
            alicante11 23 November 2013 07: 21
            0
            So did not cancel? Under him, the new constitution was adopted.
      3. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 14: 29
        +6
        Quote: ivshubarin
        I think so too. Destroy their homeland for the benefit of the West could only ub.dok


        Coca-Cola, jeans and chewing gum? wassat

        - What have you personally done for the homeland?
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 14: 35
          -4
          You list details
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 09
            +1
            Quote: ivshubarin
            You list details


            Yes.
            1. ivshubarin
              ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 14
              -1
              Nothing will crack you
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 25
                +3
                Quote: ivshubarin
                Nothing will crack you


                I'm armor-piercing soldier let's list it already.
                1. ivshubarin
                  ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 30
                  +1
                  Is this an inquiry and I'm on the investigative committee?
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 34
                    +2
                    Quote: ivshubarin
                    Is this an inquiry and I'm on the investigative committee?


                    I am from a family of hereditary Chekists, people who laid down their lives for the well-being of citizens of the country.

                    - thrash! what have you done for your homeland. listening carefully
                    1. ivshubarin
                      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 36
                      +3
                      And I'm from a family of hereditary military
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        And I'm from a family of hereditary military


                        moreover, in my family I and my two brothers and sister are the first without shoulder straps.
      4. Pushkar
        Pushkar 21 November 2013 14: 53
        +9
        1913 Russia is the seventh economy in Europe. 1970 USSR - the second economy in the world. Is it the destruction of Russia? Who is after this u_lyudok?
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 21 November 2013 16: 26
          +7
          gunner "Russia in 1913 is the seventh economy in Europe. The USSR in 1970 is the second economy in the world. This is the destruction of Russia? Who is the fucker after that?"
          I would like to illustrate the relationship between workers and engineers in the Russian Empire at the end of the 1890s ... We are talking about the Simsky plant.
          "The workers were paid very little at the plant, and they would not have survived without subsidiary agriculture. Constant social conflicts with the administration gradually revolutionized the workers. As a rule, the engineer did not walk around the plant, fearing that he would not be beaten. On the street he could be meet only in a carriage, and even then passing quickly, in order to avoid insults or even injuries: workers could throw stones. " Page 51 Memories of the service. Shaposhnikov B.M. / M .: Veche, 2013.-400s. Memories of that same Marshal Shaposhnikov, if someone does not know. I believe him.
          This was so wonderful for the workers at the Ural factories about 20 years before the 1917 revolution. Someone doing something to ease the fate of the workers? Of course not. And here gentlemen are freshly hatched to us, that we have lost something. And the fighters themselves with the soviets and communism schools and institutes ended up under the sworn commies. Come all who spoke out against Lenin, the nobles or the descendants of the merchants? Then it is clear. If not, then cabbage soup would have slurped so far ...
          I'm sorry for the collapsed empire ... But the Communists quickly restored the integrity of the country. True, without Poland and Finland. But, Comrade Stalin corrected the mess before the war by rejoining West Belarus and Ukraine, Bessarabia.
          1. varov14
            varov14 21 November 2013 19: 55
            +3
            These Russian literature have not been read, and most likely none at all. It is pointless to appeal to them, even if you crawled out of the mud. Should they know about the life of the workers before the revolution? This is the same as now some are plowing, others are waving "manna" into their pockets and everyone is happy.
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 21 November 2013 09: 16
      -33 qualifying.
      namely, as indeed the whole Jewish-foreign-born Bolshevik with *****
      1. Turkestan
        Turkestan 21 November 2013 10: 26
        -1
        Again nationalist Contra stirred
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 11
        +7
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        namely, as indeed the whole Jewish-foreign-born Bolshevik with *****


        our favorite masochist appeared laughing
        I want to tell you everything:
        - Don’t get carried away with masturbation with self-strangulation, I’ll be bored without you. crying
        1. Ptah
          Ptah 21 November 2013 16: 17
          +2
          Lyokh, "switch" to "Yan Radiy".
          Here he is just tearfully begs for communication. I believe that in the "passive position".
          But do not enter into a confrontation with the admins out of jealousy. It seems that he (Radik) not only does not interfere with them, but also "delivers" belay
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 44
            0
            Quote: Ptah
            Lyokh, "switch" to "Yan Radiy".
            hi

            schA wassat
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov 21 November 2013 16: 50
              +1
              Yes, this troll fell already along the way.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 15
                0
                Quote: klimpopov
                Yes, this troll fell already along the way.


                when you start asking:
                - in what year did the Norwegian language appear,
                - how many years did Suvorov spend in Poland,
                - how many tanks were on Shamsha ..... trolls flee. bully
      3. 3.7.964
        3.7.964 21 November 2013 19: 02
        +2
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        namely, as indeed the whole Jewish-foreign-born Bolshevik with *****

        Yosya ?! What are the fates? Where did you disappear? Once again, imagination broke ... Yosya .. I can teach you to distinguish dreams from reality, you just ask ....
        1. ele1285
          ele1285 3 December 2013 16: 44
          0
          he’s from sot com. But change the flag
    3. Boris55
      Boris55 21 November 2013 09: 25
      -21 qualifying.
      Quote: leon-iv
      ... signed the Brest Peace ...

      The goal was to revolutionize the whole world. Remember the slogan on all Soviet newspapers "Workers of all countries unite" It is just about that. By signing the Brest Peace Treaty, Lenin stopped its progress around the world. Why he signed it - you see he wanted to become a "king". It was for this, the mafia that organized the revolution, sentenced him to death - for disrupting their plan for a world revolution.

      And the fact that he was a bastard - I agree, they staged genocide of the Russian people together with Trotsky ...

      And now multiply minus - I will not change my opinion.
      1. Jan Radium
        Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 35
        -7
        Boriska sausage
    4. Antiaircrafter
      Antiaircrafter 21 November 2013 10: 04
      41
      The country began to destroy the inactive Nikolasha, which raised the revolutionary views since the end of the 19th century. Concessions pumped money out of the already bad state economy. And Nikolashka was not thrown off at 17 by the Bolsheviks. Having received power, the interim government did not understand what to do with this good. This was the peak of the collapse. The empire was cracking at the seams, the territorial fragmentation of the empire began. It was here that in October 17, the Bolsheviks picked up an unwanted and ruined state. By the way, the Bolsheviks also unleashed a civil one. It all started with essays who did not want to give up power. And the acts of Lenin must be considered in the context of the events of those years.
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 10: 16
        -22 qualifying.
        If the Bolsheviks spontaneously picked up a country, then they, the Mensheviks and essays, have led the country to this for many years. Nicholas was a weak king, but the Republic of Ingushetia developed at a rapid pace, and the revolution discarded it as it is now 1991 ago
        1. mark1
          mark1 21 November 2013 10: 37
          24
          Quote: ivshubarin
          but RI was developing rapidly,

          I think you know whose money it was for the "banquet" and you must understand that these gentlemen were least of all interested in the development of Ingushetia. "Whoever eats a lady dances her." Russia was used (and was used), and when it got to the edge (by 1917, sovereignty was actually lost), it was saved, and it turned out that the Bolsheviks saved it (although in their original plans they might not have had it), so it is necessary to rejoice that it turned out the way it turned out and not like the evil guys from behind the hill conceive
          And the nonsense of 100 years ago about the Bolshevik spies was designed for illiterate villagers of that period as part of the information war.
          1. ivshubarin
            ivshubarin 21 November 2013 10: 51
            -4
            I wrote that the country was led to collapse since the time when the Decembrists rebelled and there were no Bolsheviks yet. Only the leadership of the wise Alexander the third pushed her away for many years, and her son was weak
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 21 November 2013 14: 44
              +3
              Quote: ivshubarin
              they led to the collapse from the time when the Decembrists bucked and the Bolsheviks were not there.
              laughing

              I am getting lost !!! Pugachev, Razin, Copper revolt, Peasant uprisings (no extradition from the Don), Poles in Moscow, Kiev under the Mongols, Kiev under the Vikings, Slavic paganism (when the hostile tribe was slaughtered entirely (before the battle on Kalka, the Slavs had an intermarriage - dead there were more than 10 000 people, and this is only in one battle; under Kalka, these 10 000 warriors would have allowed the son of Genghis and his commander Subetei-Bogotur to crap.) ---- Who taught you the history of native aspen?
              belay
              call me and I’ll fill his face.
              Quote: ivshubarin
              Only the leadership of the wise Alexander the third pushed her away for many years, and her son was weak


              Samurai blundered on a nicholas. sad
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 21
                  +2
                  Quote: ivshubarin
                  And you are a great connoisseur of native aspens


                  Yes, I know the history of my native country bully From the 4 class of the Soviet school to the bourgeois university, I was exempted from exams in history (I passed externally), they offered to go to the historical department (sn - 50 bucks No. ).

                  Quote: ivshubarin
                  worry about your face


                  and Cho worry about her? recourse They shot me in the head and shot with a knife, so I won’t pull on the handsome man, my head is an organ, no more, and I’m not going to die in bed, are there any suggestions?

                  Quote: ivshubarin
                  hero


                  bragging off

                  the state of Ukraine owes me a couple of medals, plus I saved several lives in Russia and one in Belarus.

                  bragging and
                  1. ivshubarin
                    ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 35
                    -5
                    He also participated in history olympiads (only stories taught us different). And participated in the stabbing
                    1. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 56
                      0
                      Quote: ivshubarin
                      Also participated in history contests


                      My Homeland - USSR, gave me an education with which I won school olympiads in: history, geography, physics, chemistry, literature and mathematics bully At the same time, my Motherland taught me so that I fought at international juniors - "School of the Olympic Reserve" - ​​let's not be measured with pussies.


                      Quote: ivshubarin
                      . And participated in the stabbing


                      They shot you? have you buried friends I have from 6 class people left from 24 guys (there are military losses, but most of them died at the hands of their own) let's tell the other about the stabbing.

                      I have a plan:
                      - since you are a knife, I will plant you with a Yakut and put vodka wassat

                      bets on stubs are accepted .... hi
                      1. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 16: 01
                        -1
                        Don’t hesitate, my friends of the 90s didn’t survive either. And I live where the Yakuts, Nanai, Ulch missing
                      2. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 47
                        0
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        Hear don't ponder


                        I ponty only carpet.

                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        And I live where the Yakuts, Nanai, Ulch missing
                        belay EPT - buy them vodka! and have a drink with them!
                      3. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 16: 57
                        0
                        You have all the posts one show off. Come to Komsomolsk and have a drink with the Yakuts and go out onto the carpet
                      4. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 23
                        -2
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        You have all the posts one show off


                        and I’m not a shit. bully


                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        . Come to Komsomolsk


                        He was fighting, but the caves impressed me more than the fighters from Komsomolsk-on-Amur. You do not know how to fight there. wassat

                        Stop at Khabarovsk or Blagoveshchensk good , at worst, in Belogorsk - go to any rocking chair and say:
                        - Lech asked me to play.

                        I recommend SKA sports complex in Khabavrovsk. drinks


                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        and drink with the Yakuts


                        I'm not a suicide to drink with them.


                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        and we’ll go out on the carpet


                        noticeably, when I come to the Far East, I ask that you be found wink - horror as I want to see you in a wrestling circle.
                      5. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 17: 57
                        0
                        I don’t have to look, I don’t hide and I don’t cut back
                      6. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 05
                        -2
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        I don't have to look


                        don’t worry, I’ll come on occasion.

                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        I do not hide and do not cut back


                        I catch the word. wink
                      7. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 18: 10
                        +1
                        So we agreed, I like people with whom you can argue.
                      8. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 22 November 2013 10: 18
                        0
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        So we agreed, I like people with whom you can argue.


                        OK, I'm on my way.
                      9. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 22 November 2013 11: 45
                        +1
                        Don't slip
  2. Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 39
    -1
    minus one and let's compare how we know the history of Russia. hi

    (my favorite questions about the memoirs of Swedish officers and greens during the Civil)
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 42
      +1
      You don’t have authority for me to equal your story. Don't ponder
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 43
        0
        Because of the minuses, the point of view does not change
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 02
        +4
        Quote: ivshubarin
        Because of the minuses, the point of view does not change


        - your fellow countryman really cares about epaulets and cons in the virtual space? laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 00
      +1
      Quote: ivshubarin
      You don’t have authority for me to equal your story. Don't ponder


      I should not be your authority request
      my story is not separable from the history of my country.
      show off? laughing I ended up with show-offs somewhere in 98, when they cut me - since then I have not been singing and my hand is on a holster.
    4. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 16: 35
      +2
      Listen to you so you are the coolest pissing on the site. Take your hand away from the holster.
    5. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 50
      +1
      Quote: ivshubarin
      Listen to you so you are the coolest pissing on the site.


      no, it is not. There are veterans, pilots, airborne, air defense, MP, special forces ---- these people shake hands what it would be an honor for me.
      and here you are - you are driving real nonsense in front of people.
    6. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 16: 52
      0
      Same as you
    7. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 25
      -1
      Quote: ivshubarin
      Same as you


      unlike you, I didn’t spit on the graves. especially on the graves of great people.
    8. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 17: 53
      +1
      On whom I spat. I was born and studied in the USSR and am proud of it, but since the Communists did not like Stalin to treat Stalin, they themselves crossed out their history
    9. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 10
      +3
      Quote: ivshubarin
      On whom I spat.


      To the party and people.

      Quote: ivshubarin
      I was born and studied in the USSR


      they taught you shitty things.

      Quote: ivshubarin
      but since the Communists did not like Stalin, they themselves crossed out their history


      The Communists died during the war, the Communists were the first to go into battle, the Communists built the country in which we were born - do not interfere with the Communists and the Party Partnership. So we can come to the conclusion that the Austrians need to be destroyed only because Hitler was one of them.
    10. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 18: 18
      -1
      Why did the communists spit at the person with whose name they went into battle, and they sat and assented to Khrushchu, knowing that he was lying. My father and grandfathers are communists, but the debunking of the "cult" upset them greatly, and the grandfathers did not survive Gorbachev at all
    11. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 22 November 2013 10: 20
      0
      Quote: ivshubarin
      Why did the Communists spit on a man with whose name they went into battle


      I'm sorry that you were taught shitty at school, tell me who taught you stories ...
    12. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 22 November 2013 11: 59
      0
      I laid on your opinion smartass
    13. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 22 November 2013 12: 01
      0
      I laid on your opinion smartass
  • Ulan
    Ulan 21 November 2013 11: 29
    17
    Russia really developed at a fast pace. But it was the fifth pace in the world at that time. The first in terms of economic development were the United States, then Germany, England, France, Russia.
    The lag of Russia began with the First World War entry into which was Nikolai’s biggest mistake.
    The prospects for joining the war were predicted by Durnovo in his note to the Tsar.
    RI was an agrarian country and the war primarily hit the village. Firstly, the village lost many men, the best working age and a large number of horse stock ... the main draft force in the village.
    Few people know, but even then the authorities were forced to use more than 200 thousand prisoners of war in s / s.
    And of course, both revolutions added problems and civil war.
    However, in the shortest possible time, in two five-year periods, the country not only recovered, but became an industrial power and the second state in the world.
    The pace of development shown in the years of the first five-year plans has never been achieved in the history of our country, nor before or after.
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 11: 38
      10
      However, in the shortest possible time, in two five-year periods, the country not only recovered, but became an industrial power and the second state in the world. That's why I respect Stalin.
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 21 November 2013 13: 43
        +7
        Quote: ivshubarin
        However, in the shortest possible time, in two five-year periods, the country not only recovered, but became an industrial power and the second state in the world. That's why I respect Stalin.

        1938 Stalin's conversation with E. Ludwig, quote: “I am only a student of Lenin and the goal of my life is to be a worthy student of his.” By the way, under Stalin, January 22 was a mourning day, a day off, this is the day of Lenin's death.
        Quote: ivshubarin
        I think so too. Destroy their homeland for the benefit of the West could only ub.dok

        And this is you about Lenin, whom Stalin considered his teacher. Where is the logic?
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 13: 51
          -13 qualifying.
          the logic is that Lenin ruined the country, and Stalin raised
          1. V. Salama
            V. Salama 21 November 2013 14: 11
            12
            Quote: ivshubarin
            the logic is that Lenin ruined the country, and Stalin raised

            "I thought it up myself - I got offended myself." In this case, this is not about you, here it is much worse - they came up with it for you, but you believed. Stalin did not separate himself from Lenin until the end of his life. This separation was invented by our thimblers from ideology, they lied, they would not have had enough intelligence, suggested by the "senior" comrades.
            If the people like Stalin (remember the battle for the "Name of Russia), then it would be stupid not to use it. First, we will separate Stalin from Lenin (the communist idea). The second stage: we will separate Stalin from Stalin himself. We will leave only the" wise father of the nation, who is severely fighting opposition, well, by itself, the GULAG, etc. "Moreover, there is someone to pull up on this image. But it did not work out, however, it turned out to be a mistake and a funny trick. It only worked on people like you. This article confirms this. As the comrade did not get rid of it, but I had to back down.
          2. baltika-18
            baltika-18 21 November 2013 14: 12
            +7
            Quote: ivshubarin
            the logic is that Lenin ruined the country, and Stalin raised

            How old are you?
            And do you know what logic is?
            1. ivshubarin
              ivshubarin 21 November 2013 14: 16
              -4
              Chinese leaders are also students of Mao. That's the logic
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 17: 35
        0
        Me too. And millions of our fathers, grandfathers, mothers, who created a great power with their labor.
    2. SIT
      SIT 21 November 2013 13: 22
      +1
      Quote: Ulan
      However, in the shortest possible time, in two five-year periods, the country not only recovered, but became an industrial power and the second state in the world. The development rates shown during the years of the first five-year plans were never achieved in the history of our country, either before or after.

      The second economy in the world was Germany, which lost the war in 1929, in which the money of the same J.P. was invested. Morgan, Dupont, Rockefeller, etc. The unprecedented pace of development of the USSR was provided by gigantic injections of credit funds primarily from the United States, and Germany was in second place in terms of the volume of loans to the USSR. Such credit injections were no longer in the entire history of the Union. Dneproges, GAZ, Kharkov Tractor are both loans and US technologies. There was no oil needle then. The basis of USSR exports was agricultural products. Due to the fall in prices during the Great Depression, foreign trade did not cover even a few% of imports of complex and expensive technologies. So both the 2rd Reich and the USSR are projects of the same individuals with US citizenship. The purpose for which these projects were created was achieved on July 3, 22 at the Bretton Woods Conference, where it was recorded that 1944% of the world's gold reserves were transferred to Fort Knox and the dollar recognized as world currency. Both projects accomplished their task, clutching in a deadly battle and turning Europe to the smithereens and destroying its industrial potential from Dunkirk to Stalingrad. There is one powerful economy left on the planet - the USA. To drive the USSR into a hopeless arms race, while driving Europe to the frightened NATO, and destroying it was just a matter of time. Not so big by historical standards - only 70 years old.
      1. Drosselmeyer
        Drosselmeyer 21 November 2013 13: 42
        0
        Could you tell us more about loans from the USA? It seems that before the war the USSR paid for everything without any loans.
        1. SIT
          SIT 21 November 2013 13: 56
          +1
          Quote: Drosselmeyer
          Could you tell us more about loans from the USA? It seems that before the war the USSR paid for everything without any loans.

          In the 20s and 30s, foreign trade of the USSR was in short supply. For example, data on trade with the United States in 1927-1940 clearly show that in only 3 years (1929-1931), Soviet Russia formed a “hole” with a size of almost $ 250 million. The same thing happened in trade with Germany, another key partner. In 1929-1933, the USSR deficit here amounted to about 824 million marks (about 275 million dollars). The USSR did not help, and the decline in purchases of finished equipment - it went along with a sharp drop in the value of Soviet exports due to unfavorable pricing conditions, and therefore did not play the value that was assigned to this factor. Thus, it was possible to close the arising holes with only one means - loans. At the same time, Soviet exports were not the only source of foreign exchange. To correctly understand the situation, Soviet export was a guarantee of loans, and not an end in itself.
          From a letter of I.V. Stalin V.M. Molotov (no later than August 6, 1930):
          “... An agreement with Italy is a plus. Germany will reach for her. By the way, what about German loans? Force the export of bread with might and main. This is now the nail. If we take out the bread, there will be loans. ”
          Letters I.V. Stalin V.M. Molotov 1925 - 1936. M., 2001.S. 194.
          The Soviet offshore company Amtorg paid most of its purchases in the United States on loans. According to the authoritative researcher of the history of Soviet industrialization, IB Orlov, by the beginning of 1929, the USSR owed about 350 million dollars to American companies alone (I. B. Orlov. Contradictions of industrialization: attempts to industrialize within the framework of NEP / NEP Russia (Russia. XX century. Research) / Edited by academician A. N. Yakovleva. M., 2002. S. 386-387).
          1. SIT
            SIT 21 November 2013 13: 58
            +2
            Further on loans.
            On November 26, 1927, in the Main Concession Council under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR, an agreement was signed with the American entrepreneur Farquhar to provide the Soviet government with a 6-year loan of $ 40 million for the restructuring and re-equipment of the Makeevka Metallurgical Plant (A. Biryukov. The role of American firms in economic recovery and industrialization of the USSR (20s). // Discussion questions of Russian history. Materials of the III scientific-practical conference "Discussion problems of Russian history in high school and school courses. Arzamas, 1998). In Vienna in the same year, an agreement was signed between Vneshtorgbank of the USSR and the American businessman Viktor Freeman to open a credit line of $ 50 million against Soviet exports. In 1927, an agreement was reached with the American company Standard Oil on a loan of $ 75 million for the supply of Baku oil to the company Vacuum Oil.
            Until 1934, the USA did not provide the USSR with state loans, although the USSR expressed its readiness to take a loan of up to $ 1 billion, and the People’s Commissariat of Finance even made a detailed development of a loan scheme. Mostly, loans to the USSR were provided by private companies, in addition to that, before its official recognition by Washington in 1933, the USSR attempted to place its bond loans in North America. In the second half of the 30s, such loans were regularly placed by Vneshtorgbank and Amtorg. Since 1934, more than two-thirds of Soviet purchases in the United States were credited by the US state Export-Import Bank.
            There is no data on the redemption of Soviet bonds (State Bank, Vneshtorgbank, Amtorg). There is no data on the repayment of private loans.
            In 1925, Germany granted the USSR a short-term loan of 100 million marks, in April 1926, Germany opened a credit line for the USSR in the amount of 300 million marks for a period of 4 years. In 1931, Germany granted the USSR another loan (tied credit) in the amount of 300 million marks for a period of 21 months. In 1935, a consortium of German banks granted a Soviet credit to the Soviet trade mission in Berlin in the amount of 200 million marks. Thus, officially for 9 years the USSR received loans from Germany for 900 million marks, which is about 300-320 million US dollars. The annual percentage of these loans was 6% (for a 1935 loan - 5%). The last loan in the amount of 150 million marks has not been repaid.

            In addition to the USA and Germany, loans to the USSR were provided by:

            Great Britain (annually lending in the late 20s and the first half of the 30s) Soviet purchases in the amount of up to £ 20-25 million In 1936, England granted the USSR a loan of 10 million pounds.
            Czechoslovakia provided the USSR in 1935 with a loan of 250 million kroons (6% per annum).
            Italy - a loan of 200 million lire for Soviet purchases in 1930 and 350 million lire in 1931.
            Sweden in 1940 granted the USSR a loan of 100 million kroons.
          2. V. Salama
            V. Salama 21 November 2013 17: 21
            +2
            Quote: SIT
            In the 20s and 30s, foreign trade of the USSR was in short supply ...... At the same time, Soviet exports were not the only source of foreign exchange. To correctly understand the situation, Soviet export was a guarantee of loans, and not an end in itself ...... By the way, how is the deal with German loans? Force the export of bread with might and main. This is now the nail. If we take out the bread, there will be loans. ”
            Letters I.V. Stalin V.M. Molotov 1925 - 1936.

            I see that you are a product of modern education - you have learned to read letters, but not to understand the meaning. Do you understand what you write? Do you understand the motivation for decisions? Is it really necessary to chew it?
            It was necessary to urgently turn the country into an industrial power, technology and money were needed at any cost. What the adversaries took, then they were supplied. They were starving, but they sold bread, took loans on enslaving terms, made friends with the Nazis, knowing full well that this was an enemy. Thanks to Stalin for his wisdom, and to our people for the steadfastness with which he endured the hardships of those years - they knew what they were suffering for, that's why the memory is like that. And you ... can you tell me that you smoked, otherwise I got sick of reading this
            1. SIT
              SIT 21 November 2013 22: 22
              +1
              Quote: V. Salama
              Thanks to Stalin for the wisdom

              How was it planned to repay these loans? The fact that free cheese only in a mousetrap was not clear?
              1. V. Salama
                V. Salama 21 November 2013 23: 01
                0
                Quote: SIT
                How was it planned to repay these loans?

                Yes, as usual, according to the terms of contracts. When a new farmer takes money from a bank, he expects that with this money he can start a business, harvest a crop and repay a debt. But in our case, the need for a loan was vital. They counted, I think, on the sale of minerals, gold was intensively mined - if memory serves about 2500 tons of soap.
          3. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. V. Salama
        V. Salama 21 November 2013 14: 42
        +7
        Quote: SIT
        The second economy in the world was Germany, which lost the war in 1929, in which the money of the same J.P. was invested. Morgan, Dupont, Rockefeller, etc.
        That's right, they still use this technique, first bomb it and then earn it - loans, so much so as to make it impossible to return them. The people should eat, have housing - only help will fuss. Especially the Germans, they won’t eat everything. It is a pity that Iraq and Afghanistan are not Germany.
        Quote: SIT
        The unprecedented pace of development of the USSR is provided by gigantic injections of credit funds, first of all, the USA, ...
        That is, I see in the USSR we were in debt as if in silk, the "democrats" were offended later that the debts remained. It’s so difficult to understand that it’s a sin for a swindler not to make money on the mountain. Or you still do not understand what "credit" is, and also that "when everyone is bad, then there will definitely be someone who feels good about it."
        Quote: SIT
        .... USSR are projects of the same persons with US citizenship.

        You yourself are not dumb to write this? Why did the Americans go to waste money to fight the USSR? I think they didn’t see the circus show "The Fight of the Nanai Boys".
        Quote: SIT
        The purpose for which these projects were created was achieved on July 22, 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference, where it was recorded that 70% of the world's gold reserves moved to Fort Knox and the dollar is recognized as world currency.
        I’ll explain for you personally that Churchill initiated the Cold War, precisely because Stalin refused to sign the Bretton Woods agreement. And you should be ashamed that you are hanging "alien dogs" on the USSR.
        Quote: SIT
        To drive the USSR into a hopeless arms race, while driving Europe to the frightened NATO, and destroying it was just a matter of time.
        What a complicated way the stupid Americans chose - they first created it, destroyed it by Hitler, then rebuilt it, and then drove it into an arms race to ruin it.
    3. V. Salama
      V. Salama 21 November 2013 13: 55
      +4
      Quote: Ulan
      Russia really developed at a fast pace. But it was the fifth pace in the world at that time. The first in terms of economic development were the United States, then Germany, England, France, Russia.

      Here you have an inaccuracy with the pace of development, but this is not important. It is important here that the high rate of development was ensured by foreign investments and the country was slowly becoming the property of foreign capital. And foreign intervention began not "for the victory of democracy," but for the return of Western property. Secondly, even with such high rates, Russia was hopelessly lagging behind England, France, and the United States, it took decades to catch up with them. provided that these countries stop in their development. Russia remained an agrarian country (we will recalculate all its industrial indicators per capita), with an illiterate population (see the results of the last pre-revolutionary population census). the most win-win option, and we would be very lucky if we were preserved in the form of a Moscow principality. Under the influence of the American "Eugenics" they would cook us for soap and process us for fertilization throughout the entire western Caudla.
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 17: 44
        +3
        That's it. I just didn’t write that a simple inhabitant of the Republic of Ingushetia got miserable from this industrial growth. Indeed, a significant (if not a large part) of industry and industries belonged to foreign capital, which brought profits from Russia.
        For example, the Baku crafts. To whom they belonged is well known.
    4. bwo
      bwo 21 November 2013 14: 09
      -3
      Quote: Ulan
      The lag of Russia began with the First World War entry into which was Nikolai’s biggest mistake.

      It's hard to argue. But put yourself in the place of Nicholas. Germany one-on-one smashes France in a couple of months. No, okay, half a year. And, further. Is drank awesome?
      Quite possibly. Russia vs Germany + Austria. England does not count here. The result is very predictable. In the best case, the loss of Ukraine and the Baltic states.
      Such is x..ya Mr. Colonel.
      1. mark1
        mark1 21 November 2013 17: 44
        +4
        Quote: bwo
        But put yourself in the place of Nicholas. Germany one-on-one smashes France in a couple of months. No, okay, half a year. And, further. Is drank awesome?

        Why is she left? Unlike Hitler Germany, Kaiser did not look for anything at that time, Germany was mostly offended by the unfair distribution of colonial possessions in Africa, as it seemed to her (all claims against France and England)
        1. bwo
          bwo 22 November 2013 10: 53
          0
          The following is a quote from a herm document. General Staff:


          Instructions for the command of German troops in the Russian theater of operations

          After crossing the border, the military command will have to reckon with completely new conditions related to the nature of the theater of operations.

          The poor quality of roads is explained by the lack of durable building material and the large distances between settlements.

          Only highways have a hard flooring, but even they are often kept so poorly that road and heavy freight transport can run into great difficulties. Country (dirt) roads are almost everywhere devoid of any flooring and only occasionally equipped with a flooring reinforced with crushed stone. Their suitability depends on the weather and the soil through which they pass. The most favorable is sandy soil mixed with clay. Most roads have a width that is often, especially in poor, badlands, not limited at all. Trees are not usually planted with trees.

          Bridges, even across large rivers, with few exceptions, are built of wood and are fragile; often along with bridges there are fords.

          In spring and autumn, after prolonged rains, even streams can turn into insurmountable obstacles.

          Marshy areas are often passable in summer; most often through the swamps are paths that pass at all times of the year, but these paths are known only to local residents and are not mapped. Uncleared vast forests, often with marshy soil, make it extremely difficult to move troop formations off-road in marching orders.

          With the exception of certain regions of Poland, the country's population is rare compared to Germany. The number of cities and towns is insignificant; in remote marshy and forested areas there are no settlements at all.

          Even in the cities there are few large houses, in the village they are available only in estates and on farms. An ordinary peasant wooden hut is small and low and most often has one room in which all the inhabitants live, often together with cattle. Low stables often have wicker walls smeared with clay.

          The properties of roads and dwellings should be taken into account when deciding on hiking and resting arrangements.

          The publication of the Candidate of Historical Sciences VERA MIKHALEVA
          RGVA. F. 33987. Op. 3. D. 505. L. 242-252, with abbreviations.
          1. bwo
            bwo 22 November 2013 10: 59
            0
            Forgot to indicate document 1913 !!! of the year.
            You have to be completely shortsighted to allow the option - Germany crushed France and will peacefully coexist with the rapidly developing "Russian bear".
            1. bwo
              bwo 22 November 2013 11: 21
              0
              Another quote and I think enough.
              In May 1899, at the initiative of Nicholas II, the first peaceful disarmament conference was held in The Hague. In 1912, Emperor Wilhelm II wrote that the era of the Third Great Migration of Nations was approaching, in which the Germans would fight against the Russians and Gauls. And no peace conferences can change this, since it is not a matter of politics, but a "question of the survival of the race."
    5. mark1
      mark1 21 November 2013 14: 20
      +1
      Quote: Ulan
      Russia really developed at a fast pace. But it was the fifth pace in the world at that time. The first in terms of economic development were the United States, then Germany, England, France, Russia.

      It was the effect of a "low start" - when at first you do not produce anything and then suddenly you start doing it, then the volumes double and triple, etc. - in short, the growth is impressive, but up to a certain point.
    6. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 06
      +3
      Quote: Ulan
      Russia really developed at a fast pace. But it was the fifth pace in the world at that time. The first in terms of economic development were the United States, then Germany, England, France, Russia.


      Do you know what Tolstoy wrote?
      - ... famine in Russia is never bread, it’s when there is no swan ...

      - did you eat bread with sawdust? did you eat wood glue? have you been starving for more than a week at least once?

      Quote: Ulan
      RI was an agrarian country and the war primarily hit the village. Firstly, the village lost many men, the best working age and a large number of horse stock ... the main draft force in the village.


      stocking up beer with fish and lighting a cigarette

      - how many died during the Russo-Japanese and the First World War? how many peasants were killed during the surplus appropriation DECLARED BY THE TsAR'S GOVERNMENT, when food was withdrawn from the villages? how many were killed by flogging? (flogging with ramrods - execution and torture used by the tsarist, Provisional and White regimes against civilians, flogged with ramrods from a Mosin rifle or ramrods from cavalry carbines - it is not realistic to survive 50 blows; under Kolchak, they destroyed entire villages in Siberia.),
      - how many were loaded into "Stolypin wagons" and how many "Stolypin ties" were worn?
      - how many were shot on the exit of the tsarist troika (military court) ?,

      tell me about russian village bully



      Quote: Ulan
      Few people know, but even then the authorities were forced to use more than 200 thousand prisoners of war in s / s.


      industrialization was made by 18 000 000 peasants, whom the Soviet government lured into the city from the villages, through mechanization, electrification and education.


      Quote: Ulan
      However, in the shortest possible time, in two five-year periods, the country not only recovered, but became an industrial power and the second state in the world.
      The pace of development shown during the years of the first five-year plans has never been achieved in the history of our country, nor before or after


      - example one --- Byzantium, paid tribute to us, the path from Igor and his wife Olga to their son wink ,
      - an example of the second - Ivan the Terrible, who created the first professional army wink ,
      - Example Three - Peter the First Whacked Superpower - Sweden wink .
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 21 November 2013 15: 39
        +2
        And how many Reds destroyed the Cossacks? The whole estate under the root. How many officers of the tsarist army and priests were shot. The peasants were dispossessed, those peasants who worked hard and others in the countryside provided work. You say Kolchak was fierce, but the fact that the red commanders used gas to poison the people in the Tambov Province, they took the children hostage, and the cattle were taken out before the gas poisoning to prevent poisoning all the villages.
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 21 November 2013 16: 25
          +2
          And how many Reds destroyed the Cossacks?

          And how much did tsarism destroy? In the person of Genrikh Yulievich and the snow, starting ... And at the end they also "threw".
          So do not.

          . How many officers

          How many officers were shot? Not even the Bolsheviks ... NO ... Yes, the same Cossacks ...?
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 52
            +4
            Quote: klimpopov
            How many officers were shot? Not even the Bolsheviks ... NO ... Yes, the same Cossacks ...?


            they don’t write about white terror, it’s not popular.
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov 21 November 2013 17: 07
              +2
              What infuriates me most of all is that we hide what we need to pull out and twist and what is inconvenient.
              This is a civil war - which is probably worse than that (if you can say so at all).
              By the way, I am also fond of history. But more local history captures well, and industrialization.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 28
                0
                Quote: klimpopov
                What infuriates me most of all is that we hide what we need to pull out and twist and what is inconvenient.


                the history of mankind is a continuous chain of savagery.

                Quote: klimpopov
                This is a civil war - which is probably worse than that (if you can say so at all).


                There is nothing worse than a civil war, and the Civil War in the former tsarist is the worst war in the history of mankind.

                Quote: klimpopov
                By the way, I am also fond of history. But more local history captures well, and industrialization.


                sapper?
                1. klimpopov
                  klimpopov 21 November 2013 18: 07
                  0
                  sapper?

                  Yeah, I’m looking for forgotten keys and documents in the fields laughing
              2. Ulan
                Ulan 21 November 2013 17: 59
                +1
                And I and the history and military equipment and uniformology. The history of military uniforms and weapons. I make tin soldiers.
                Although it is correctly called a "military-historical miniature". smile
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Ulan
                  And I and the history and military equipment and uniformology. The history of military uniforms and weapons. I make tin soldiers.
                  Although it is correctly called a "military-historical miniature".


                  firmly shakes hands
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 31
          +7
          Quote: RUSS
          And how many Reds destroyed the Cossacks? The whole estate under the root


          Cossacks - a privileged estate, in Tsarist Russia amounted to 5% of the population, was used to suppress peasant riots; The Soviet government could not stop the destruction of the Cossacks - Russia was an agrarian country and too many people knew the Cossack whip.

          Quote: RUSS
          How many officers of the tsarist army


          70№ of the officer corps of Russia fought for our angry , Brusilov taught those who taught Zhukogo and Rokossovsky

          Quote: RUSS
          and priests were shot.


          do you need to upload pictures? Catholics, Muslims, Baptists, Buddhists, Orthodox in the USSR?

          Quote: RUSS
          You say Kolchak was raging


          better on - "you".
          "Kolchak" is still called the fiercest puppy in the litter in Siberia and the Far East.
          Why do people remember the Kolchak executioners, Cossacks and not what they don’t remember about the Cheka? I will answer - in the Cheka in 1918, there were 118 employees.

          Quote: RUSS
          , and the fact that the red gas commanders poisoned the population in the Tambov Province


          in the Civil War, you can defeat one way - to kill everyone who does not agree.
          Cromwell hurricane in England, in France it was a night of knives, the Belgians 20 000 000 killed blacks, but the Russians should repent.

          Quote: RUSS
          took children hostage


          - Do you want to bring the red families to the place of execution by white? when the whites began to slaughter people - the Bolsheviks responded with total terror.
          - Do you want to show where the whites organized concentration camps, massively killed miners, workers and peasants?

          The Bolsheviks won because the people stood up for them!
          Against the whites!
          Against the invaders!

          Quote: RUSS
          and cattle so as not to poison all of the villages brought before gas baiting.


          Do you know how in the Tambov province they cut the asset and their families?
          from the security officers of OGPU tore off alive skin lecture tone off

          and here the red fighters - past Civil, see refreshing corpses, killed children - whose fault was that their father served in the Red Army, see their heads cut off and skin removed ---- I understand that human rights are in the suppression of the uprising in Tambov were not followed? what

          under the tsarist government, even those who had an indirect relation to what was happening, would tear out their nostrils, put a stigma on their forehead, and send them to Siberia.
          1. klimpopov
            klimpopov 21 November 2013 16: 53
            -1
            Russia was an agrarian country and too many people knew the Cossack whip.

            In the end, everyone fell under the knife. In the sense of the entire estate.
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 33
              +3
              Quote: klimpopov
              In the end, everyone fell under the knife. In the sense of the entire estate.


              The Soviet court was humane - if everyone (Tatars, Chechens, Balts, etc., etc.) suffered a deserved punishment, these peoples would not exist (like the Indians in America, they would have been wiped off the face of the Earth).
        3. Ulan
          Ulan 21 November 2013 17: 57
          0
          Strange: They destroyed an entire estate and suddenly from somewhere (probably from the other world) in the Great Patriotic War, whole Cossack corps appeared in the Red Army.
          By the way, they appeared earlier. Zhukov commanded the Cossack cavalry division.
          And before the war, the Cossacks were given a special ceremonial Cossack uniform. Dark blue with red stripes.
          And at the Victory Parade in the 45th, Cossacks marched in Cossack uniforms.
          If they were "destroyed," where did they come from then?
          1. ivshubarin
            ivshubarin 21 November 2013 18: 00
            0
            The myth is the same as Stalin who destroyed the church. And who restored the patriarchy in the USSR
          2. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 15
            +1
            Quote: Ulan
            If they were "destroyed," where did they come from then?


            The civil war in Russia is the worst war in the history of mankind.
            The Cossacks split like the whole country - there were Red Cossacks, "Quiet Don", "Dauria" ---- I recommend it for reading.
          3. RUSS
            RUSS 21 November 2013 18: 45
            -1
            Of the total number of Red Army soldiers, Cossacks in the Red Army, it was less than 1%, and only before the threat of the Great War did Stalin recall the Cossacks in the 36th.
        4. V. Salama
          V. Salama 21 November 2013 18: 00
          +1
          Quote: RUSS
          And how many Reds destroyed the Cossacks? The whole estate under the root. How many officers of the tsarist army and priests were shot.
          Even the enemies claim that Stalin made only one mistake - he did not believe Sorge, but everything is clear, so much contradictory information came and deliberate misinformation from the enemy special services, but it was impossible to make a mistake.
          But it seems to me that due to his humanity, he made another mistake - he did not give the order to keep records of the victims of the "white" terror, the methods of waging the civil war by whites and Cossacks, with names and addresses. He was a wise man, he understood that the people should not be disunited and that the victor should not leave compromising evidence on the vanquished. He gave the Cossacks an opportunity to rehabilitate themselves, and to others; "... the son does not answer for the father ..." And now all this has come out, from the Western voices, but from the voices of relatives and "victims of Soviet power" and being confused in facts and figures, they are crazy, they confuse the cause with the effect - what happened formerly "white" terror or "red". But do not flatter yourself, anyway, if we start counting who did what atrocities, then the score will not be in your favor. Yours ruined more, and the atrocities were more terrible. There is still information on this matter, and, by the way, not from the fans of Soviet power.
          1. V. Salama
            V. Salama 21 November 2013 21: 00
            -1
            And I wonder whose naughty pen can manipulate points? Straight tricks, already shut down the computer. "I recognize my brother Kolya ..." Yes, I do not care about the shoulder straps, however.
        5. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 21 November 2013 20: 05
          +2
          RUSS "and the fact that the red commanders gassed the population in the Tambov province,"
          Quite battered thesis. Near Beloretsk in 1918, in the battles with the Reds, the White fired something around 700 shells with a gas-gun ... I can make a little mistake with the numbers, but not by much. That is, white means defenseless workers can be poisoned.
          Moreover, the batteries were Orenburg Cossack troops. Anenkov hung around there and participated in those events. Do not believe read at A. Ganin. He also has an article on this topic. People just don’t know, that’s what they write.
        6. Bosk
          Bosk 23 November 2013 01: 05
          +1
          It was a civil war, and the civil war does not take prisoners. When a brother kills a brother this is in itself a tragedy, to consider who killed whom more is the height of cynicism, for one simple reason ... OURS KILLED OURSELVES!
          1. V. Salama
            V. Salama 23 November 2013 01: 55
            +1
            Quote: Bosk
            ... to consider who killed whom more is the height of cynicism ..

            Well said, just not at the address. It’s not on our side that these accusations have begun; we have to communicate in a language that our opponents understand.
            Quote: Bosk
            OURS KILLED OURS

            Exactly, but then someone has become aggravated to hang on one side of "all the dogs" - and bloodlust and guilt for what he did. Maybe keep silent and not react? Are you suggesting this?
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 17: 53
        0
        I didn’t understand something. Why so aggressive? Does what I said somehow contradict what you said?
        You have added, for which you are thankful. All that you write, I know very well that the bread was exported abroad not from the peasant farms, but from large landowners.
        Peasants seldom had enough bread for new products and really ate bread in half with a swan. Engelhard writes that often peasant guys first tried meat after serving in the army.
        So I do not need to be educated. I myself am from the peasants. Father from the Don Cossacks, mother from the peasants of the Tula province.
        And I don’t have to be rude about fish and beer and cigarettes, I, unlike you, can go around like a plow and fight back.
        And by the way, quit smoking 15 years ago.
        Respectfully....
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 20
          0
          Quote: Ulan
          I didn’t understand something. Why so aggressive?


          dives into the trench I was wrong!


          Quote: Ulan
          The same Engelhard writes that often peasant guys first tried meat after serving in the army.


          nice to meet a man who read the book of the royal landowner. hi


          Quote: Ulan
          And I don’t have to be rude about fish and beer and cigarettes, I, unlike you, can go around like a plow and fight back.


          but I don’t know how to mow - not given. crying why - it’s not clear ...
          I do all the other village work.
      3. duke
        duke 21 November 2013 23: 21
        +2
        Oh, this Stolypin "reaction", and indeed the repression of tsarism.

        In total, from 1825 to 1905, 1397 people were sentenced to death in tsarist Russia, 894 people were executed. For 100 years of bloody tsarism. (BN Mironov. Social history of Russia. Vol. 2. SPb, 2000. - p. 30. For general statistics of death sentences before the revolution, see Russian wealth 1909. No. 4. p. 80- 81; Polyansky N.N. Imperial courts in the fight against the revolution of 1905-1907 M., 1958. S. 215; Yearbook of the newspaper "Rech" for 1914. Pg., 1914. S. 41.
        MH Gernet, Against the Death Penalty, St. Petersburg, 1907, p. 385-423; The death penalty: Collection of articles / Tagantsev N.S. - S.-Pb .: State. Type., 1913. Kistyakovsky AF Study of the death penalty, St. Petersburg, 1896.)

        Stolypin's "odious" military-field courts, which operated for 6 months from 1906 to early 1907. 683 people were executed, but they were terrorists - bombers, killers who blew up, shot, cut. Let's not talk about the destruction of the Cossacks as a class, en masse, incl. and women and children, and even close to touch 1937-1938. when an average of 1000 people were shot per day for one year. You can also quickly view the statistics of executions from any year from 1917 to 1945. So, for each year of the Soviet regime, they executed more (sometimes more than 3500 (!!!) times) than during the entire period of the reign of the "Asian barbarian" Alexander III. Let us turn to the statistics of the death penalty for one peaceful year 1962. Stalin is long gone; a post-industrial society looms on the horizon. Space.

        Attention - In 1962, 2159 people were sentenced to death in the RSFSR (not even in the entire USSR) (Mikhlin A.S. Death penalty yesterday, today, tomorrow M. 1997 P. 53) In other words, 30 times more than for 10 years of the reign of "monstrous" Alexander III, was sentenced to the VMN political (there were still about 150 executions on criminal charges). This is in the USSR, which condemned the personality cult.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 22 November 2013 10: 31
          -1
          Quote: duke
          Oh, this Stolypin "reaction", and indeed the repression of tsarism.

          In total, from 1825 to 1905, 1397 people were sentenced to death in tsarist Russia


          young man do not meddle in the history of his native country if you do not know her.
          how many died on Khodynka?


          Quote: duke
          Stolypin's "odious" military-field courts, which operated for 6 months from 1906 to early 1907. 683 people were executed, but they were terrorists - bombers, killers who blew up, shot, cut.


          how many were destroyed during the 1905 revolution of the year and after?


          Quote: duke
          We will not talk about the destruction of the Cossacks as a class, in bulk, including and women and children, and even close touch 1937-1938gg. when, on average, 1000 people were shot per day for one year.


          young man how do you imagine this? How many executioners should be, how to bring 1 000 people to the place of execution, how many should be guarded, how to bury it - because mass executions cannot be hidden, what to do with corpses?
  • Jan Radium
    Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 37
    -2
    Schnick, thanks to the revolution, you use the Internet
  • AlNikolaich
    AlNikolaich 21 November 2013 14: 05
    +7
    Quote: ivshubarin
    RI developed rapidly, and the revolution threw it as it is now 1991 a year ago

    Dear, I want to remind you that the Empire had the peak of development in the 1913 year!
    And in 1914 the war began. And the economy went on a war footing. Figures arose for whom the mother’s war is native! (Ryabushinsky and Co.) ... By the beginning of 1917, the Russian economy was barely breathing, the country was pulled into pieces by thieves of all stripes. And it began ... The February Revolution, then the Great October Revolution. Then the civil war ...
    Lenin's value in creating a republic, with the support of the people! It was the Bolsheviks who created the republic, while the "guardians of Russia" in the form of the White Guards brought the interventionist assistants to our land!
    1. SIT
      SIT 21 November 2013 14: 22
      +3
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      ! (Ryabushinsky and Co.

      Well, the world is not only white and black. Most often, in stripes))) So Ryabushinsky 1st mentioned by you allocated money back in 1912 for Vernadsky’s expedition to search for uranium raw materials for his atomic project. It was at that time crazy money 700 thousand rubles. After the success of this expedition, further exploration of uranium was already carried out with state money and was classified. So thanks to Ryabushinsky L.P. During the implementation of the Soviet atomic project, Beria did not spend time and money on the search for uranium deposits. By the way, Sikorsky recalled that he received TK from the imperial General Staff to develop a bomber for delivering a heavy-duty bomb. The most powerful bomber made by Ilya Muromets at that time was not satisfied by the General Staff. It is possible that they needed a B29 Enola Gay))))
  • Yarosvet
    Yarosvet 21 November 2013 15: 42
    +1
    Quote: ivshubarin
    but RI developed rapidly
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 35
      +2
      Yarosvet hi

      throw to the lovers of French bread the figures of mortality from drunkenness, only in the Moscow region recourse
      1. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 21 November 2013 17: 17
        +2
        Quote: Karlsonn
        throw to the lovers of French bread the figures of mortality from drunkenness, only in the Moscow region


        It’s better to do it another way: let them compare the life expectancy of famous personalities (and these are mainly guys not poor) with this:
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 43
          +2
          Quote: Yarosvet
          let compare the life expectancy of famous personalities


          not a fig - let them compare with child mortality, illiteracy, the lack of hospitals and schools.
          1. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 21 November 2013 18: 14
            +1
            Quote: Karlsonn
            let them compare with child mortality, illiteracy, the lack of hospitals and schools.
            No problem
          2. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 21 November 2013 18: 28
            0
            -----------------------------------
  • KEKS44
    KEKS44 21 November 2013 11: 13
    +2
    Quote: Anti-aircraft gunner
    The country began to destroy the inactive Nikolasha

    [left] Fatal mistake of Nicholas II - allowed the entry of Russia into the 1st World War.
    As for the economic development of the country, the growth of entrepreneurship and capital, improvement of production, its technological re-equipment, and an increase in the number of hired labor in all spheres of the national economy are in the face. Along with other capitalist countries, a second technical revolution was taking place in Russia (accelerating the production of means of production, the widespread use of electricity and other achievements of modern science), which coincided with industrialization. From the backward agrarian country, Russia by the beginning of the 82th century. became an agro-industrial power (XNUMX% is engaged in agriculture). In terms of industrial output, it entered the five largest states (England, France, the USA and Germany) and was increasingly drawn into the world economy.
    Do not forget about the Stolypin agrarian reform and the ensuing rapid growth in agricultural production (alas, like many undertakings, it was not completed).
    In terms of development, Russia was second only to the United States. There is no need to lie that Russia was a backward country at the beginning of the 20th century! [Center] [/ center]
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 21 November 2013 13: 25
      -9
      The Soviets were equal to the level of the economy of 1913, how much? The Bolsheviks themselves dumped the country into a hole, from which they crawled out for decades, at first they destroyed everything that could be destroyed - "we will destroy the old world to the ground", then they built on bones!
      1. Jan Radium
        Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 41
        -4
        you yourself dumped, or so pretend to be a fool
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 45
          0
          Quote: Yan Radiy
          you yourself dumped, or so pretend to be a fool


          and you're funny, how much do you cost?
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 04
        -1
        Again! Well, write down yourself somewhere at last that the Bolsheviks have nothing to do with the overthrow of the tsar and the destruction of the Russian Empire.
      3. V. Salama
        V. Salama 21 November 2013 18: 39
        -1
        Quote: RUSS
        Tips were equal to the level of the economy of 1913, how much?

        Again you confuse the cause with the effect. They did not equal, but referred. Although it would be possible for them to compare their successes, but with what else, because this is the pinnacle of development in pre-revolutionary Russia. It was on your part that from the first years of Soviet power, the people were constantly brainwashed. " finally ... well, and so on. and so on. " So I had to explain to the people what happened in 1913 and what happened after. But when they explained, I understood that there was no one from your "at the desk", they only heard that "The Soviets were equal ...", and why they were equal - they were explained at a different "desk", so it turns out.
      4. revnagan
        revnagan 21 November 2013 19: 39
        -1
        Quote: RUSS
        The Bolsheviks themselves dumped the country into a pit, from which they crawled out for decades, at first they destroyed everything that could be destroyed - "we will destroy the old world to the ground",

        Like any ignoramus, you incorrectly quote the words of a famous song. Or you deliberately misinterpret them. Literally, it sounds like this:
        "The whole world VIOLENCE we will destroy
        to the base, and in the winter,
        we are ours, we will build a NEW WORLD ... ",
        well and further in the text. And everything that ordinary people did not associate with the world of violence and injustice remained to work for the good of the new country.
  • Gur
    Gur 21 November 2013 11: 25
    15
    You apologize from whose will? A nobleman, merchant, or landowner? Lost a lot? Why are you defaming others, if you are one of these, then for me you are also a finished descendant of the people who were born thanks to the ability of your ancestors to quickly change shoes and get into dark places without soap and therefore survive even in such a meat grinder . Judging by your epaulettes, you have an analytical mindset, you are capable of solving global problems not only V.I. Lenin. So please, while your power has returned, make us happy, and if you crap, you will get a repeat of history again. And to hell with you and not with lampposts, ours took 17 meters and it will be necessary to take 2017m too. Responsible for everything, and for privatization, for theft, for the collapse of the USSR, for the collapse of the army and navy, well, in general, the list is long, I think that this list will be shorter than the one that the people presented to the ruling dynasty and the spiders of that power.
    1. KEKS44
      KEKS44 21 November 2013 11: 30
      -7
      GUR is your idiotic speech addressed to me?
      1. Gur
        Gur 21 November 2013 11: 35
        14
        Well, judging by the fact that you didn’t understand the hell and took it upon yourself, I think that it’s you and so on. Yes, actually your post is complete nonsense, you yourself believe in what you write, what kind of economic growth? what is the technical revolution? where are you taking all this nonsense?
        1. KEKS44
          KEKS44 21 November 2013 12: 09
          -9
          Quote: GUR
          you yourself believe in what you write

          I believe.
          Quote: GUR
          where are you taking all this nonsense?

          I have a similar question for you.
          Quote: GUR
          it will be necessary to take 2017m

          You’ll not take a damn thing, dear! Once already taken and a damn thing you did not succeed!
          Quote: GUR
          I think it's you and d and oh t

          To me in principle! do not care what you think about me!
          1. Gur
            Gur 21 November 2013 13: 36
            12
            Unlike you, I believe in what I was taught, not for money, and, unlike you, I read not the rubbish and lies that they write now for money. And it’s only snickering from the fantasy that has ended, they can pee in gold toilets and buy paintings for rabid grandmothers who don’t understand what is painted on. And not those who seem to be satisfying and good, only revolution is not enough for fun.
            The second answer is in the first.
            The cyclical nature of history has not been canceled, and even the bourgeois agree with Marx, and the situation when the upper classes cannot, the lower classes do not want, as time shows, only gets worse. So, if I were you, I would not be so categorical. Or do you know there is such an anecdote - "well, the wrong ones must have been shot, but now you can see who"
            Similarly, I also do not care (it's probably such a Russian tradition, do not care about your neighbor) at you from the Eiffel Tower.
            1. klimpopov
              klimpopov 21 November 2013 14: 08
              +1
              Krasava. I was in a different topic. Here I read - such colors, such battles. I would write in the same way, well, maybe less emotion!
              From me there are many pluses!
            2. KEKS44
              KEKS44 21 November 2013 14: 19
              -7
              Quote: GUR
              it’s probably such a Russian tradition, to spit on your neighbor

              Well, judging by your statements to me, you're not my neighbor at all. By the way, I’m not sure that coexistence is these features of the citizens of Kazakhstan, most likely, this is your individual feature! I know a lot of jokes, including this one. Just look, those who shot at first were put to the wall 15 years later (do not forget about the cyclical nature of the story - no one canceled it). Although, you are not a revolutionary !, you are an Internet crap .... obl, nothing more. The price is half a penny (or half a tenge)! Sing on May 1 the international, put flowers on the mausoleum of the Ghouls, drink 200 gr. little white and calm down!
              1. Gur
                Gur 22 November 2013 08: 12
                -2
                Well, how come, how close are you to me, you are a descendant of those whom my ancestors did not finish, judging by your posts you are my class enemy, but what kind of enemy are you, you just moron who grabbed sharks from the same shortcomings and corrupt freaks like Novodvorskaya etc. Bydlyachestvo, you say)))) Well, for people like you, all people like not blue blood and who do not substitute their ass for Western propaganda, well, your unnecessary behavior is in the blood, there are and will be litter, because you don’t have your own brains , you do not and will not have your own honor.
                As for the executions, take a closer look, too, the execution orders for most of them were given by the "former" who went over to the side of the Bolsheviks, who tried to bend over and survive with mass executions and, if possible, climb up, and the people remained as they were. Well, as a result, they also made a hole.
                Well, really, what a revolutionary I am, I’m not even a communist, I’m a former Octobrist, a pioneer, a Komsomol member, and I even agree that the Internet magazine is ..... big, but not much less than you. Well, if I have at least some kind of price, you have everything bad with it, you already sold everything, your homeland, history, I’m silent about honor when you never had it. In general, as Comrade Lenin used to say, you’re not even political you ordinary sorry ... tutka.
                Yes, I celebrate November 7 and May 1, and I drink and lay, and sing. And if you are to me like that, then I will also give you advice, go to the 400th anniversary of the Romanov’s house and suck Mikhalkov as the master of all Russi and who advocates returning monarchy, because if nothing changes you will have to do it regularly.
                1. KEKS44
                  KEKS44 24 November 2013 12: 54
                  +1
                  I read and laughed. What heat, what passions wassat You truly are a cool dumb ... b, you have never seen more nonsense in your life. Feels a powerful vocational training! Stupid you however brother laughing By the way, I am very glad that the times of such communoids have passed completely and irrevocably! At the expense of my "blue" blood, then you're probably right. My mother is a history teacher, my father is a worker, I am a military man. Actually, for what you wrote above to me, you should shove your smelly personal belongings into your smelly mouth! It's a pity, but I don't have such an opportunity. So live, fuck ... k!
                  1. Gur
                    Gur 25 November 2013 09: 45
                    -1
                    Well, it is necessary for such wonderful parents to have been born that way. Spit out horseradish and express yourself more clearly, otherwise you mumble through drooling, come try, give an address? Will you drag your broken ass? Come prapor, judging by the posts, or so the victim of a defective condom?
                    (ml I haven’t been so low for such communication with those who have one crinkle and then from a cap)
                    1. KEKS44
                      KEKS44 26 November 2013 10: 23
                      0
                      Yes, the further the worse am Don't choke on class hatred, gopnik. Take care of yourself!
                      By the way, it looks like they made you "buhoy", not for the May holidays drinks Sorry for the rudeness, but the apparent insufficiency of your intellect cannot be explained by anything else!
                      Amaze me further with your stupidity, and for my part I am ending the discussion. hi
    2. bwo
      bwo 21 November 2013 14: 19
      -2
      Quote: GUR
      Responsible for everything, and for privatization, for theft, for the collapse of the USSR, for the collapse of the army and navy, well, in general, the list is long, I think that this list will be shorter than the one that the people presented to the ruling dynasty and the spiders of that power.

      So the CPSU is responsible for this. Who shouted the loudest than all and voted in favor of? Whose top then ruined and stole everything? Represent the many millions in the Gulag for years to come?
      However, there is a walkie-talkie. There is enough wood and coal for everyone.
      1. Gur
        Gur 21 November 2013 14: 56
        +4
        You want to say that Gorbach is a communist, Yeltsin is a communist? Is your Kuchma a communist? After the reign of Khrushchev, who himself climbed to power by hook or by crook, the settlers and opportunists went from there, but at 90, Misha, who had fought from an unexpected sound, dismissed everyone and all, and these bureaucrats, having taken a slice of a showdown under Andropov, decided that either now or once, and then the USA became friends, everything in the compartment gave you what happened, but not the whole Communist Party was to blame for this. As for the Gulag and other camps, if those times are correlated with our time, then oh, how they are missing. And as for the wine and the innocent, I have said this and say it to everyone and always, let's deal with everyone who has claims to that authority. And then we'll see who is XU, and for what this XU sat down and how many he still dragged.
  • etrusk
    etrusk 21 November 2013 12: 19
    +5
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole. Which, for the sake of power, destroyed the country, deliberately signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc. Writing is even disgusting. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.

    Nobody doubts human qualities like. And the collapse of the country at a fast pace too. But that he brought Trotsky to power ... They were allies, yes, but Lenin did not bring him to power. Moreover, he competed with him, and in the end he openly fought. In particular, to fight him, he brought Stalin closer to him.
    1. cumastra1
      cumastra1 21 November 2013 13: 50
      -9
      Was Lenin good or bad? and Emperor Nicholas II? I don’t know ... Only one of them was counted among the saints, and the earth does not accept the other, and so lies unburied, and they also set up experiments on him, like on a rabbit, or Pavlov’s dog ....
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 21 November 2013 14: 12
        +4
        Do you really believe in all this obscurantism? Do you really believe in the power of the torso as such? Yes, stop it!
        the earth does not accept, and lies unburied

        Well, Lenin lies in the crypt (look carefully at the mausoleum) and his land has not yet spat out on the moon))))
        Nicholas (?) Is also not in the ground if that ...
        and still experiments on him put, ka

        And in the anatomical people how many people (well, the body) ??))))
        Although I understand this is a criterion for you.))))
        They killed))))
        1. KEKS44
          KEKS44 21 November 2013 14: 46
          -10 qualifying.
          Quote: klimpopov
          Well, Lenin lies in the crypt

          And why is he lying there ??? People are usually buried in the ground, or burned in a crematorium! But do not put on public display. In my opinion, this is wildness! For me, it needs to be burned as False Dmitry, to load the ashes in the cannon and to shoot in the direction from which it came, i.e. towards Germany!
          1. klimpopov
            klimpopov 21 November 2013 14: 54
            +5
            And who is looking at him? Where is it displayed?
            Kings are also not in the earth. And if we still remember the Kiev Pechersk ... UUU ... And kissing the relics and the head of the saints in glass jars ....

            For me, it needs to be burned as False Dmitry, to load the ashes in the cannon and to shoot in the direction from which it came, i.e. towards Germany!

            Well, yes, Lenin ruined such a bastard. By the way, the British and French also cut their heads off to their kings - why am I, but besides, that revolution of 1917 was inevitable and Lenin is perhaps the best thing that happened. Because the prospect of becoming a state of Russia (I exaggerate) was quite real, with the subsequent "cleansing" of the territories from the indigenous population. But the swoop didn’t work, then they entered from the other side. Delayed for 70 years ...
            1. KEKS44
              KEKS44 21 November 2013 15: 03
              -3
              Quote: klimpopov
              And kissing the relics and the head of the saints

              Bad comparison! Even as an atheist, do not express yourself in this way!
              1. klimpopov
                klimpopov 21 November 2013 15: 15
                +3
                Bad comparison! Even as an atheist, do not express yourself in this way!

                Why is it unsuccessful? The most successful. I am normal towards faith (as much as possible, at least tolerate), but why distort it?
                And yes answer to the account of the kings. If not difficult.
            2. KEKS44
              KEKS44 21 November 2013 15: 07
              -2
              This is your opinion, I’m not going to dissuade!
              1. klimpopov
                klimpopov 21 November 2013 15: 17
                -1
                I am not for or against the fact that Lenin would remain where he is now. He will find his place in history. And where the body is not important. But why, so, in khanjinsky? I also do not convince anyone, I'm just interested.
                1. Ulan
                  Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 16
                  +1
                  Me too. The prosperity of a country does not depend on how one or another politician is buried.
                  Those who think that having buried Lenin are deeply mistaken, we will wake up rich and happy tomorrow.
                  I think there are much more pressing problems facing the country that need to be addressed, and the cries about the need for immediate burial of Lenin are an attempt to evade discussion of the real problems of our society.
                  Leave the body alone ... our children and grandchildren will solve this problem, if necessary, calmly and without tantrums.
                  There is no need to do this today.
        2. Ulan
          Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 11
          +2
          Well, the ROC, even under Alexy, answered this question that the burial of Lenin does not contradict the Orthodox canons.
          In the same way, the great Russian surgeon Pirogov is buried in the crypt.
          No one is hysterical about this.
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 09
        0
        Mistake. Nicholas is not counted as a saint. He is ranked as a stratosphere. This is somewhat different.
      3. revnagan
        revnagan 21 November 2013 19: 46
        -1
        Quote: cumastra1
        and lies unburied

        According to the canons of Orthodoxy, buried, because lies below the surface level of the earth (soil, not planet ...).
    2. V. Salama
      V. Salama 21 November 2013 18: 57
      -1
      Quote: etrusk
      But that he brought Trotsky to power ...

      Yeah, for any mess, a riffraff of different stripes always comes running, based on your interest. And the dough is pumped in unmeasured. At the initial stage, the slogans are all the same - go figure it out, on our barricade - it means ours. But then they quickly figured it out, it was necessary to recall yet how Trotsky completed his glorious path.
      Quote: etrusk
      Nobody doubts human qualities like. And the collapse of the country rapidly

      Then I did not understand, maybe you have unsuccessfully agreed on a proposal with a context? Or I don’t know?
  • Jan Radium
    Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 33
    -3
    Well you are a cool dumbass
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 36
      +2
      Quote: Yan Radiy
      Well you are a cool dumbass


      Glory to Cthulhu! Clever visited us!
      Hear:
      - if you don’t know how much Smolensk resisted the Poles, - scatter under the bench (well, go google or go, since you don’t remember the feat of your people.)
  • baltika-18
    baltika-18 21 November 2013 14: 04
    +8
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole. Who destroyed the country for the sake of power

    You can slander Lenin, the October Revolution, the socialist idea a lot and for a long time, but gentlemen, the observers tell me please, because there was a civil war, on the one hand, red, on the other white, which receive help from the countries of the Entente, and the Entente itself, supporting the white movement, goes direct intervention, and in spite of all this, the Reds defeat (and these are Lenin’s ideas) and restore the country. But victory in a civil war is possible only with the support of the majority of the population, you must agree. This means that Leninist ideas were popular in the country, among people , with our great-grandfathers and grandfathers. Why are you so crazy then? After all, surely not one of you even knows what he wrote about in his books.
    And Starikov is not a historian, he is a populist. I read his books, looked at the links cited by him. Do not be lazy, follow the links of Starikov, you will find out a lot of interesting things. I have much less faith in him.
    1. Gur
      Gur 21 November 2013 15: 13
      10
      No, what are you, what kind of Entente, the heavenly archangels helped them in this, and they themselves were white fluffy and in a complete lack of understanding that it would have rebelled, because technical progress was higher than in Europe (I do not know what this meant ) and the economic situation was on the rise, well, what the hell did they need? And many shout that this is not a revolution, but a coup, an illegal seizure of power, but nevertheless, the USSR was recognized by all states of the world and won the war, flew into space. But August 91 is the expression of the will of the people, and the Bolsheviks are accused of a civil war (although they did not unleash it, but they won and ended it) and nevertheless, for some reason, they are silent about the fact that the civil war has been going on in our country since 91, but for now without blood but is it hard to start. Russia is celebrating the day of unity, where do you see unity? in history books? in films? on the TV? WHAT IS unity? Some "want to see the tsar saved", others generally dream of lying to the west, others (and I belong to them) for justice, equality, for the desire of a person for the better, and whether it is communists or not, it makes no difference to me.
      1. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 19
        -1
        Quote: GUR
        Russia celebrates unity day, where do you see unity?
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 18
        +3
        And whom did the Bolsheviks overthrow? The illegal power of the Provisional Government, which overthrew the legitimate tsarist government.
        So the Bolsheviks did not overthrow the legal power.
  • Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 21 November 2013 14: 25
    +7
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole.


    I will answer as a communist:
    - Have you seen the graves of children at the end of the garden? (infant mortality in the Central African Republic)
    - 40№ men in the Russian tsarist army first tried meat - in the army,
    - who shot with machine guns on the roofs of people?

    Lenin changed history, it became easier for millions of people to live because of him, and even a dog won’t stop pissing on your grave.


    Quote: leon-iv
    Who destroyed the country for the sake of power


    Country? Romanov pissed off everything! am The provisional government, headed by Kerensky, was printing money in an American bank (with a swastika!), Kolchak — as a polar explorer and agent of Russian intelligence — I respect, of course --- I bought it. Doesn't it remind you of anything? recourse


    Quote: leon-iv
    consciously signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc.


    hear - handsome, have you at least led a platoon into battle?
    what are you driving here? theorist?



    You, the fighter went on the attack? - theorist.

    Quote: leon-iv
    It’s even disgusting to write. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.


    Baby - come back for the desk.
  • duke
    duke 21 November 2013 18: 01
    +1
    As far as I understood the author, the question is not even about cooperation with German intelligence, but in cooperation with representatives of the "financial international", at that time - in the person of Yakov Schiff and Co., or as AI Fursov calls them - supranational, conciliatory structures, which are often used by government agencies, such as intelligence / counterintelligence, financial and tax police, etc. Many readers minus you because they do not understand that the form of socialism we know was created by Stalin, not Lenin, and Stalin's works are very curious, at least his thoughts are clear and clear, in contrast to Ilyich's graphomaniac "works", where - dark cloudy water and a monstrous syllable with which many in universities have suffered ... In addition to what they would have done under Stalin, during the war, with that, albeit a "genius" person who, even with the best intentions, would try " to use "the enemy of his country in what the interests of the revolution ??? What was said then ... it seems, according to the law of wartime ???
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 25
      0
      Quote: duke
      as far as I understood the author, the question is not even about cooperation with German intelligence, but in cooperation with representatives of the "financial international", at that time, in the person of Yakov Schiff and Co.


      send a photo of the money of the Provisional Government printed in the USA with a swastika?

      Quote: duke
      that they do not understand that the form of socialism we know was created by Stalin, not Lenin, and Stalin's works are very curious, at least his thoughts are clear and clear, in contrast to the graphomaniac "works" of Ilyich, where the water is dark in a cloud and a monstrous syllable , with which many in universities have suffered ..




      Kamrad re-read the works of Lenin and Stalin today - much will be revealed laughing
  • Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 21 November 2013 19: 50
    -2
    The Social Democrats did not want and did not even try to destroy the Russian state. In those days, there were various political projects untested by experience to transform the state system for the common good. V.I. Lenin (Ulyanov), L.D. Trotsky (Bronstein) and other revolutionaries devoted their entire lives to the realization of their ideas.
  • Cormorants
    Cormorants 22 November 2013 06: 50
    +1
    I completely agree, he’s finished, he mocked the country quite a lot ..
  • Vityok
    Vityok 21 November 2013 08: 58
    -1
    The article is complete nonsense!
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 21 November 2013 11: 39
      +9
      old people
    2. Jan Radium
      Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 39
      -3
      Old Man - Satanist
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 28
      +3
      Quote: Vitek
      The article is complete nonsense!


      Yes sir! only poorly educated people buy this propaganda.
  • Denis
    Denis 21 November 2013 09: 02
    +6
    vshubarin и leon-iv Somehow kindly about him, guys or site rules?
    The spy from him is like a g ... bullet, did he really know any secrets?
    And the author is inaccurate,AGENT OF INFLUENCE not to say more precisely about him
    And it’s a pity that not only about him
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 09: 04
      -12 qualifying.
      Why did he need to know something, his task was to destroy the Russian Empire for the benefit of the Entente
      1. Turkestan
        Turkestan 21 November 2013 10: 16
        10
        What is this country such that a bunch of revolutionaries could ruin
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 10: 36
          -1
          In 1991, a handful was even smaller, and things have been done so far.
          1. Antiaircrafter
            Antiaircrafter 21 November 2013 10: 58
            +2
            For the events of 1991, the country was prepared by Tagged. Therefore, this bunch of liberoids became the head of the discontented masses.
            1. ivshubarin
              ivshubarin 21 November 2013 11: 09
              -3
              And so it is clear that the revolution is being prepared in advance
            2. Denis
              Denis 21 November 2013 11: 52
              +1
              Quote: Anti-aircraft gunner
              led by discontented masses
              An anecdote about the same masses in 17

              Smolny, is there any vodka?
              -no
              -and where it is?
              -in winter
              -Hooray, take it!

              to the masses of noodles to hang, really skillfully, and they will bawl, it’s more difficult to think
              1. Gur
                Gur 21 November 2013 12: 15
                +7
                No, I’m just wondering, damn it, that every Cicero doesn’t fast. Well, I think if this butch starts again, cut my relatives out of noodles if they are not with me or not? Or, nevertheless, to explain to my relatives who hangs noodles for them, for centuries some have been using them for more than 20 years, and also skillfully.
          2. Gur
            Gur 21 November 2013 11: 48
            13
            The United States stood behind this handful, according to various sources, from 200 to 1000 advisers from the State Department were sitting in the Kremlin, Yeltsin didn’t go through a single step without their approval or direction, because he’s an untouchable, non-judgmental person, the first president is independent (on my own) countries, and many of our prominent figures from both art and politics still sing praises to him.
          3. yankeegohome
            yankeegohome 21 November 2013 13: 35
            +6
            Unlike the 91st, when the people were prepared (tobacco shortages, tales of a capitalist paradise with 40 beers (the most important thing in life), obgazhivanie of the past, etc.) and almost with popcorn I watched the collapse of the country with a bunch of traitors (even the army which took the oath to this very country). And in 17g. more and more complicated. There, on the contrary, too many people began to fight for this very idea of ​​the Bolsheviks, and their opponents, without outside help, would not have lasted even a month. So really it was far from all as rosy as some are trying to draw. And of course, the role of Nikolashka. It was not a king, but a parody. And it became clear from his marriage. When the personal is placed above the interests of the state, by the will of fate and the ancestors handed to you.
            1. ivshubarin
              ivshubarin 21 November 2013 13: 39
              -9
              Until Trotsky began to shoot every tenth in the retreating Red Army, the people especially did not want to fight for the ideas of the Bolsheviks
              1. yankeegohome
                yankeegohome 21 November 2013 13: 44
                +6
                Under the threat of being shot, you can make you sit out in the trenches, but how can you make you clear such a vast territory? Yes, and the people are a very inert mass and the same stimulating "shocks" were given to them by the "white" side))). So I do not agree
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Gur
                Gur 21 November 2013 13: 46
                +5
                Trotsky’s Nagan did not overheat? or is it your fever delirium?
                1. ivshubarin
                  ivshubarin 21 November 2013 14: 11
                  -7
                  Learn the story
                  1. Gur
                    Gur 21 November 2013 15: 22
                    +3
                    Are you talking to me? And what story? Before or after the Bolsheviks? I’ve already read your story, where detachments from machine guns stopped the fence, where the political commissar bastard, like all the NKVD bloodthirsty killers, and Kolchak, Krasnov and other guardians of the fatherland, and they should have been so stuffed on every lamppost, and the villages weren’t cut out, so native Nai x. such a story.
                    1. ivshubarin
                      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 32
                      -5
                      Actually, I’m a Stalinist, do not drive me about detachments
                      1. baltika-18
                        baltika-18 21 November 2013 16: 23
                        +2
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        Actually, I'm a Stalinist

                        Answer the Stalinist. Which of the written by Stalin did you read?
                      2. ivshubarin
                        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 17: 45
                        0
                        Selectively read his "Works". Almost everything is like Lenin's
                      3. baltika-18
                        baltika-18 21 November 2013 19: 50
                        +4
                        Quote: ivshubarin
                        Selectively read his "Works". Almost everything is like Lenin's

                        Well, so what’s the conclusion. Stalin was always guided by Lenin’s ideas. If you had more thoroughly studied the Stalinist legacy, you would never have written about that nonsense that was voiced. And I remembered such a moment, Stalin wrote that he was with Lenin Sometimes he entered into disputes over some issues, but at the same time noted such a trait in Lenin as recognizing a mistake if the interlocutor was able to prove his case. Yes, and Lenin was very kind to Stalin. Stalin was commissioner for nationalities in 1919, and Lenin also proposed him to the post of commissioner of the State Audit Office (Rabkrin). It was at the initiative of Lenin in 1922 that Stalin was elected general director of the Central Committee of the RCP (B.).
                    2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 27
          0
          Quote: yankeegohome
          And of course, the role of Nikolashka.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv 21 November 2013 09: 06
    +2
    You can also conduct an analogue with EBN.
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 09: 10
      -2
      There is enough Judas in the history of Russia. Even the Decembrists are praised, but the same goal for the collapse
      1. Jan Radium
        Jan Radium 21 November 2013 13: 43
        -8
        you yourself gavnyuk judah
        1. RUSS
          RUSS 21 November 2013 14: 03
          +3
          Hey, Yang, you checked in today, how do I see? Learn to communicate, not bydlyach.
      2. Gur
        Gur 21 November 2013 15: 24
        +2
        You are generally Mlyn, even though you read the prerequisites and the requirement you want to achieve by these Decembrists? Or do you study in Soros?
  • avt
    avt 21 November 2013 09: 48
    17
    Quote: Denis
    The spy from him is like a g ... bullet, did he really know any secrets?
    And the author is inaccurate, THE INFLUENCE AGENT

    Well, not a spy, that's for sure. It was just that when the case was being sewn under Kerensky, it sounded good and understandable to the public. Of course, they tried to make an agent of influence out of him, as well as of the Bolsheviks as a whole. But only one thing was not taken into account, unlike Gorbatov and various Shevardnadzes, these people really believed in the ideas of which they were carriers and they did not betray these ideals, but in the end they outplayed their German "curators" by taking money for the revolution. But the Naglo-Saxons Polovchas turned out to be twisted.
  • Drosselmeyer
    Drosselmeyer 21 November 2013 13: 49
    +1
    Influence agent on what? Lenin was in Switzerland and did not hold any government posts. The Bolshevik Party at that time did not have much influence in Russia. Lenin is simply a professional revolutionary. There is such a profession.
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 13: 56
      -1
      To be a professional revolutionary it is necessary that someone pays for your work. And Lenin lived in Europe in first-class hotels and apartments in a big way.
      1. Drosselmeyer
        Drosselmeyer 21 November 2013 14: 04
        +3
        Well, okay, think of first-class hotels in a big way. He lived modestly, did not live in poverty, but that was all.
        1. Gur
          Gur 21 November 2013 15: 28
          +2
          Here you read the nonsense of some and really think that our education has died, or rather, they intentionally killed him, so that I could say garbage and they took it at face value ..
          1. ivshubarin
            ivshubarin 21 November 2013 15: 39
            -1
            Do you have in Kazakhsian?
            1. Gur
              Gur 22 November 2013 08: 20
              -1
              In Kazakhstan, this is a copy of Russian education
      2. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 31
        0
        Quote: ivshubarin
        Lenin lived in Europe in first-class hotels and apartments in a big way
  • Yoshkin Kot
    Yoshkin Kot 21 November 2013 09: 17
    -19 qualifying.
    right now, the krasnyuki will come running, how dare they offend their Russophobic idol! bitten by the rabbi marx tongue
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 09: 21
      +8
      Not everything is categorical. I respect Stalin very much - the Great Man was
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 21 November 2013 09: 22
      -7
      Quote: Yoshkin Cat
      ! bitten by the rabbi marx

      The cat, again managed to grab skulls laughing Shaw you argue with them, if you didn’t bring flowers to the mausoleum, then it means the enemy. Let them live in the past, but they live in it, because Lenin’s supporters have no future !!!!
      1. Yoshkin Kot
        Yoshkin Kot 21 November 2013 09: 35
        -11 qualifying.
        so i love to tease them laughing
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 38
          +6
          Quote: Yoshkin Cat
          so i love to tease them


          when you find a woman - we - the Stalinists will raise a toast for you.
        2. Des10
          Des10 21 November 2013 21: 53
          0
          in a civil war, you would be together with a marshal, bravo.
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 09: 57
        +1
        And the supporters of Stalin?
      3. Turkestan
        Turkestan 21 November 2013 10: 18
        +6
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        ! bitten by the rabbi marx

        The cat, again managed to grab skulls laughing Shaw you argue with them, if you didn’t bring flowers to the mausoleum, then it means the enemy. Let them live in the past, but they live in it, because Lenin’s supporters have no future !!!!


        Do current \ liberals, democrats \ have it?
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 21 November 2013 10: 46
          -6
          Quote: Turkestan
          Do current \ liberals, democrats \ have it?

          Well, I don’t know how you have in Turkmenistan or again stir up a new revolution?
          1. Turkestan
            Turkestan 21 November 2013 11: 12
            12
            Many respected Alexei, I live in the CITY of FERGANA. This city is located in the Republic of Uzbekistan.
            I think that such an enlightened Forum participant should know this.
        2. Hort
          Hort 21 November 2013 11: 13
          +3
          all who are not for Lenin and communism-liberals \ democrats? Interesting logic ...
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 21 November 2013 13: 32
            +2
            The logic is simple - "whoever is not with us is against us," but the fact that the forum is present as you can see: -monarchists, democrats, conservatives, socialists, nationalists, etc., all of them are "recorded" in the now fashionable curse-liberal, and derivatives from this the words.
          2. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 02
            +1
            Quote: hort
            all who are not for Lenin and communism-liberals \ democrats? Interesting logic ...


            anyone who spits in the history of Russia is an enemy. Don't like our ancestors whacking whites? do not like our ancestors who have stomped all nations? Get out of here until the KGB officers knocked on the door.
            For "Freedom of Speech" it is in the USA, when you get shot in the head because you took your hands off the wheel - let's talk.
            1. Hort
              Hort 21 November 2013 22: 27
              +1
              Karlsonn - Residence: Kiev.

              I live in Siberia, so I didn't "roll over" to you, if that.
              It first.
              Secondly, where did you get the idea that a negative attitude to any event in the history of my country is a spit in it?
              Or so, just to blur?
      4. Gur
        Gur 21 November 2013 11: 51
        12
        And who has it? no, millet is interesting, and in general, does Russia have a future? and is it without a past?
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 21 November 2013 14: 22
          +3
          Here I am about the same! Again mine to you from me +! Here everything is so easy to hang labels. And few people can think.
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 21 November 2013 18: 32
          +1
          Quote: GUR
          no, millet is interesting, and in general, does Russia have a future? and is it without a past?


          Russia is indestructible. The Russian people are not the most numerous, but Russia is the largest country on the ball, but everyone has always been reckoned with Russians.
          Russians always win in the end.
          The Russians endured both Europe and Asia.

          Does Russia have any future? Ask yourself this question when you come running to ask us for help. And we think.
          1. Gur
            Gur 22 November 2013 11: 09
            +1
            ))) And this is how, I’ll run Russian to ask you for help? Yes, I read posts, I think that you should already ask us to return to our historical homeland, because I look morale grows stronger.
      5. klimpopov
        klimpopov 21 November 2013 14: 20
        -3
        live in the past, however they live in it, therefore

        One must live by history as well. The supporters of tsarism have even less. Whose future do you ask? E-government) doesn’t; well, the truth is that a person cannot manage a person effectively - a fact. Either the tsar (the anointed one, or whatever God is there - but this is a trick, I don’t think that Nikolai came from Ra’s son, and if that’s what the anointed one allowed then) or robots.
        So we’ll do a cyborg from Lenin then we will show you)))
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 21 November 2013 15: 08
          +1
          need to put a tag )))))))))))
          Half of the comments are not adequate so what am I going to stand out for?
          In general, srach is of course credited)))))
      6. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 38
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        .Let they live in the past, however they live in it, because the supporters of Lenin have no future !!!!


        Why?
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 15: 43
      +2
      Quote: Yoshkin Cat
      right now, the krasnyuki will run


      I'm already here! bully hear - contra, how would I like to get to people like you recourse

      Quote: Yoshkin Cat
      how dare they offend their Russophobic idol!


      Monuments to Lenin are restored even under the Russophobic regime in Ukraine, when you die, no one will remember.
      1. Yoshkin Kot
        Yoshkin Kot 22 November 2013 09: 59
        0
        napoleonka not press?
  • Strashila
    Strashila 21 November 2013 09: 19
    27
    Let's be honest ... Russia was not driven into full anus in 1917 by the Bolsheviks led by Lenin ... until October 1917 the Bolsheviks were actually nothing, just do not confuse all this with Soviet ideology ascribing to the Bolsheviks some leading force and other bl blah blah.
    The Bolsheviks were frightened by everyone and sundry, outlawing ... the same Vyshinsky put Lenin on the wanted list and other other things.
    Trotsky, unlike Lenin, in October 1917 was already a public politician and was part of the current official power of that time.
    The fact that they managed to pick up the remnants of the crumbling power in Russia is a fact.
    And again, there is no need to argue with Soviet cliches, a revolution in 1917 was made by a coalition of Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Anarchists and others.
    Just the Bolsheviks were able to give an idea and on its basis to develop the ideology of a new society.
    But this event (revolution) became purely Bolshevik (interpreted by Soviet history) in the late 30s after the final sweep of the former allies by October 1917.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 21 November 2013 09: 22
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: Strashila
      Russia was not driven into full anus in 1917 by the Bolsheviks led by Lenin ... until October 1917, the Bolsheviks were practically nothing,

      They drove her right after the 17 year, untying the warrior with blood.
      1. Gur
        Gur 21 November 2013 11: 55
        10
        Your voice sounds like it is from there that you are broadcasting ... and you are appropriating services to the Bolsheviks in that they are only participants and not instigators.
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 16: 42
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        They drove her right after the 17 year, untying the warrior with blood.


        Sasha, I can recall how they wanted to equip our soldiers with halberds and drive them in waves at machine guns and cannons, in 1915, I can remember that the entire oil industry was under a foreign citizen, I can remember the Stolypin deportation. wink
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 21 November 2013 09: 37
      -6
      what difference does the Socialist-Revolutionary Jews, such as Kerensky or a friend of the Jewish family, have a blank form!
      1. Turkestan
        Turkestan 21 November 2013 11: 24
        14
        I APPEAL TO ALL FORUM PARTICIPANTS, DO NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE NATIONALIST ADVANCE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE HISTORY, DO NOT TURN THE DISCUSSIONS ON THE GREAT SITE TO THE NATIONALIST BACCHANAL. On this page there is a discussion of the article \ Was Lenin a German spy \ and only.
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 03
        +1
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        what difference does the Socialist-Revolutionary Jews, such as Kerensky or a friend of the Jewish family, have a blank form!


        yes no! I personally pierce my head, that the Nazis that the counter-all the same. request

        You bastards - people who hate for the color of their skin, hair and eyes, must be pressed as much as possible.
        and my strength is immeasurable. fear the bastards!

        1. Yoshkin Kot
          Yoshkin Kot 26 November 2013 08: 33
          0
          well, you’re rootless on a sea of ​​Russian blood like you, a sea of ​​robberies
  • july
    july 21 November 2013 09: 31
    0
    The role of the personality in history is still an unresolved issue, but in general the article as a word taken out of context does not even make sense to discuss ... if only emotions.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 21 November 2013 10: 46
      +1
      Quote: July
      The role of personality in history is still an unresolved issue,

      Probably Gorbachev and Yeltsin immediately recalls?
      1. july
        july 21 November 2013 11: 43
        0
        No, you can remember Judas, that clown was still ...smile
  • Ulan
    Ulan 21 November 2013 09: 52
    24
    Unfortunately, most commentators have emotions that are not related to the truth. Oddly enough, most people on the forum are sane people, but for some reason they persistently repeat the gossip of their grandmother Novodvorskaya and a certain Mr. Svanidze.
    Perhaps one respected Scarecrow, tried to objectively look at the events of those times. It is strange that he did not pick up minuses.
    The sins of the Bolsheviks are certainly higher than the roof and blood on them, too. For which they later received what they deserved from Stalin and his associates.
    But there is no sin in the collapse of the Russian Empire.
    This crime is on the account of those whose descendants in the 91st destroyed the USSR. Russian liberal shushera.
    1. Alexey
      Alexey 21 November 2013 10: 20
      +2
      True said. One must also understand that the Bolsheviks are far from always like-minded people, there was a struggle of its own.
    2. Strashila
      Strashila 21 November 2013 14: 24
      +2
      There are cons ... as without them.
    3. yankeegohome
      yankeegohome 21 November 2013 14: 48
      -3
      I absolutely agree that, in addition to Stalin's other merits, perhaps the main one is the destruction of the "Leninist guard". Otherwise, this non-Russian shushara, on the wave of its ideas about a world fire and a furnace of revolution, would have finished off the country if they had remained in power. And by the end of the 20s themselves had already acquired governess, servants, gold, etc. attributes of the "elite". Russia is the Third Rome, and the fourth will not happen is clearly not their favorite slogan)) Stalin mixed all the cards, becoming the head of Russia and began to build a super-empire in a single country. And all the Bolshevik slogans were just an entourage. He made the "elite" afraid to lie and steal. For which they and their heirs are still taking revenge on him. For your FEAR
  • bairat
    bairat 21 November 2013 10: 04
    0
    Quote: Ulan
    Unfortunately, most commentators have emotions that are not related to the truth.

    Do you know the truth? lol everyone has their own opinion, and reckoning oneself to bearers of truth seems immodest.
    1. roma-belij
      roma-belij 21 November 2013 10: 34
      -1
      The common people will never know the truth, but the fact that the country has rolled back 30 years ago is a fact. Any revolution has more negative than positive. In my opinion, in October 1917 there was not even a revolution, but the most ordinary seizure of power, and not by the Council of People's Deputies, but as before by one person. So to speak, the king simply changed and now we are returning to this too (((
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 10: 39
        +1
        The revolutionaries demanded the abolition of serfdom and the tsar Alexander the second who canceled it blew up, their actions never went to the good
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. takojnikuzheest
      takojnikuzheest 21 November 2013 10: 57
      +5
      Dear, learn to read in the end and understand the meaning of what is written! Ulan he didn’t mention a word that he was the only one who knew the truth, he only urged you and the rest to try to objectively examine historical facts, from all sides, so to speak. And do not judge these facts one-sidedly. The facts themselves, you certainly, as an adult and an independent person, you can find yourself in any source of confidence in you.
    4. Ulan
      Ulan 21 November 2013 11: 44
      +6
      Nobody knows the whole truth, but is it true to write that the Bolsheviks destroyed the Russian Empire? And many wrote here. Or are you also sure that the Bolsheviks destroyed RI?
      The same applies to the civil war. But who and the Bolsheviks absolutely did not need it.
      In civilian as in any other, the armed forces of the parties are in conflict. The Bolsheviks and the army were not in the 17th. Who needs a war? Those who want to take over power. The Bolsheviks already had power after October 17th.
      But the opponents of the Bolsheviks wanted to regain power.
      Is not it? Hasn't the rebellion begun in the Don? Is not the revolt of the Czechoslovak corps considered by historians to start a civil war?
      What does Lenin and Co. have to do with it?
      Yes ... they had a slogan during the First World War - “Let's turn the imperialist war into a civil war.” Usually this argument is cited as proof of the guilt of the Bolsheviks.
      Why did they need it? To seize power. After the Bolsheviks seized power in October 17, he lost their relevance for them. They fulfilled the task - they seized power.
      So let's judge the Bolsheviks for real sins and not imaginary ones.
  • Denga
    Denga 21 November 2013 10: 24
    11
    When they came to the Emperor Paul to sign the abdication of the throne, he refused and said "You can do with me what you want, but I will die your emperor." Nicholas II himself signed the abdication of the throne, essentially leaving the country at a turning point. A revolution is not made from scratch; big mistakes of the authorities lead to it. If you want to discuss spies in power, then it is better to start with Gorbachev.

    PS Starikov is not a historian, but only a publicist, in principle, Fomenko can be discussed with the same success.
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 10: 30
      -8
      He disowned in favor of his brother Michael
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 21 November 2013 11: 49
        +5
        But didn’t Michael renounce? Didn’t Nikolai understand what was substituting Michael?
        Didn’t Nikolai have at hand the bet-guard battalion devoted to him, consisting of St. George cavaliers, at hand to arrest the conspirators?
        Paul did not have and he acted as a real sovereign and officer - he preferred death to shame of renunciation.
        Everyone forgets one more moment - at that time Nicholas was also the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. It turns out he threw the army at the height of the war.
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 12: 09
          0
          Historians did not find a document on Nikolai’s abdication; there is a piece of paper signed in pencil with a clumsy signature that does not look like the signature of the tsar. Everything in words
          1. Drosselmeyer
            Drosselmeyer 21 November 2013 14: 00
            +1
            And what's the difference, he renounced or not? What did he do next? I went to my wife when the country was on the verge of disaster. He actually lowered the monarchy into the toilet.
          2. Ulan
            Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 30
            +4
            Unfortunately, the abdication took place. There are too many witnesses. Moreover, Nicholas himself and his many relatives never denied the fact of the abdication. And Nicholas had a lot of opportunities to declare this.
            After all, he was not immediately arrested at headquarters. Yes, and then under the Provisional Government he enjoyed relative freedom.
            By the way, a significant fact: Indeed, under the Provisional Government, the protection of the arrested tsar and his family was not very strict, but in the entire former imperial army of tens of thousands of officers who swore allegiance to the tsar, there were not several dozen to free the tsar. As Kisa Vorobyanininov said, he was one to!
  • Volodya Sibiryak
    Volodya Sibiryak 21 November 2013 10: 27
    0
    Conclusions need to be drawn from history, and not to breed arguments.
  • Isk1984
    Isk1984 21 November 2013 11: 19
    15
    Many here are Vladimir Ilyach both tail and mane, although the scale of his personality is huge, the smartest person for his time, I’m afraid if not many of us present in our time would have weaved bast shoes on the stove, at best ...
    1. POMA
      POMA 21 November 2013 13: 24
      +2
      How are you right. good
  • msv
    msv 21 November 2013 11: 19
    -3
    Article minus. Does the author want to justify cooperation with foreign intelligence and financial circles for the sake of coming to power to the detriment of his country? Lenin, of course, is not a spy, he is worse: he is a destroyer of Russian culture, the state and a fighter of the Russian people.
    E.B.N. - also not a spy, but during the putsch for coming to power, he actively used the services and support of the American embassy (Gabriel Popov confirmed this in an interview). Therefore, he is no better than Lenin.
    1. Turkestan
      Turkestan 21 November 2013 12: 31
      +1
      The German Gold Myth
      http://leninism.su/index.php?o
      ption = com_content & view = article & id = 3683: nemeczkie-d
      engi-i-russkaya-revolyucziya & catid = 30: library & Itemid = 37 - German money and the Russian revolution
      http://www.alternativy.ru/ru/node/146 - Миф о немецком золоте
      http://militera.lib.ru/research/sobolev_gl/index.html - Русская революция и немецкое золото.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Jan Radium
    Jan Radium 21 November 2013 11: 37
    -9
    N. Starikov is an adept of the sect of Satanail the Lightbringer. Leads a kabbalistic policy of matching and identifying Lenin with Stalin. He speaks half-truths, like all Sadducee hypocrites. He hides that Lenin and his RSDLP (b) party were sponsored by Russian capitalists - Morozov, Mamontov, etc. - because they read and knew the program of his party, which provides for the construction of socialism through the development of capitalism in Russia. The Bolsheviks did not intend to engage in "black redistribution" of property, as the current Russian Marxist-Leninists prescribe to them. These "friends of the people" and the Bundists included in their party programs clauses on the "black redistribution" of property, communal ownership of land and building socialism on the basis of collective ownership of the means of production. "Friends of the People" were sponsored by American tycoons, both before the revolution, when the number of Socialist-Revolutionaries reached 700 members, and after the Great October Revolution, when after the Great Patriotic War Lenin introduced the NEP to overthrow Lenin's government. These American magnates understood perfectly well that collective ownership of the means of production is a brake on the development of capitalism, a brake on the development of productive forces, since they had read Marx. It is beneficial for them that Russia was backward and served only as a raw material appendage of the world economic system, so they supplied the Friends of the People with money. They are still sponsoring the government of "friends of the people" so that Russia's development proceeds in a vicious circle.
  • Vladimir65
    Vladimir65 21 November 2013 11: 39
    15
    Lenin is a great man and thinker who rallied the people around the idea of ​​justice and equality. It is not necessary to attribute to Lenin any mercantile features. The people are no more stupid than us writing here and deliberately followed Lenin, and then created a great socialist state after Stalin, but we went after Gorbachev and Yeltsin and ditched this state. It's time to stop retelling stories about Lenin the spy, German money and more. Understand better what money and why Gorbachev and EBN did their dirty deed.
  • july
    july 21 November 2013 11: 53
    +8
    The difference between Lenin and Gorbachev with EBN is that initially the idea of ​​Lenin was to make the people happy (let the controversial methods), and these goons had the idea to sell everything and warm their hands. All!
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 11: 57
      -5
      Lenin had the goal of the world revolution, he laid on the people. Everything that was created for the people, created by Stalin
      1. Vladimir65
        Vladimir65 21 November 2013 15: 26
        +6
        Stalin is inseparable from Lenin. Were it not for Lenin, there would have been no Stalin.
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 22 November 2013 02: 23
          0
          Stalin, before meeting Lenin, was already an authoritative revolutionary
  • Ross
    Ross 21 November 2013 12: 23
    -1
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole. Which, for the sake of power, destroyed the country, deliberately signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc. Writing is even disgusting. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.

    Schifft's main player was most likely Trotsky; he was imposed on Lenin as a partner, using his pathological craving for power. Before Trotsky arrived in Russia, he immediately joined the party and became 2 after Lenin a man in it. An interesting combination? Because Lenin knew that the money was for Trotsky. If we follow everything further carefully, then Trotsky was in charge of all affairs and he had real power. Red Army and other tools. Already in the 1918-1919, Trotsky began to distribute concessions in Siberia to his master benefactors, where there were red areas. It is terrible to imagine what would happen to Russia if it were not for Stalin, who eliminated this gang in time.
  • Ross
    Ross 21 November 2013 12: 24
    +2
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole. Which, for the sake of power, destroyed the country, deliberately signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc. Writing is even disgusting. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.

    Schifft's main player was most likely Trotsky; he was imposed on Lenin as a partner, using his pathological craving for power. Before Trotsky arrived in Russia, he immediately joined the party and became 2 after Lenin a man in it. An interesting combination? Because Lenin knew that the money was for Trotsky. If we follow everything further carefully, then Trotsky was in charge of all affairs and he had real power. Red Army and other tools. Already in the 1918-1919, Trotsky began to distribute concessions in Siberia to his master benefactors, where there were red areas. It is terrible to imagine what would happen to Russia if it were not for Stalin, who eliminated this gang in time.
  • etrusk
    etrusk 21 November 2013 12: 24
    0
    Quote: Stas57
    old people

    So what? Have you read his books? Can you refute his arguments?
    I’m asking not for fun, the reasons for your relationship are interesting.
    1. V. Salama
      V. Salama 23 November 2013 11: 10
      -1
      Quote: etrusk
      Where did you see the attempt to justify? The question is whether he was a spy, and not justification for his actions.
      At first he was a spy, and when it didn’t work, he backed down, but only somehow sickly (his “crocodiles” still “fly low”) - one should not lose face, nevertheless with a claim to the main patriot of the country. But still there is no restraint - a spoonful of shit should be left "I was not a spy, but he certainly collaborated with foreign intelligence services." Ways to return to their previous positions must be left, and time is dragging on - maybe they can still justify some nonsense with their whole shobla.
      Quote: msv
      Does the author want to justify cooperation with foreign intelligence and financial circles for the sake of coming to power to the detriment of his country?
      Here is just not an excuse, but there are "low flying crocodiles."
      Quote: msv
      he is worse: he is a destroyer of Russian culture, the state and a fighter of the Russian people.
      this comrade fell out of the topic - he doesn’t know either the history or the meaning of the words of the language he speaks.
      Quote: etrusk
      Can you refute his arguments? I ask not for fun ...

      There are no arguments, there is a mishmash of facts, fabrications and omissions of the essential. In this case, a false idea about the object is created, that there is manipulation and the basis for further manipulation. The refutation of this type of lie requires scribbling in volume many times greater than the lie, it is already a bit of a nuisance to refute.
      We have been hanging noodles on our ears for so long that it’s time to learn how to distinguish between manipulators.
  • etrusk
    etrusk 21 November 2013 12: 47
    -1
    Quote: msv
    Article minus. Does the author want to justify cooperation with foreign intelligence and financial circles for the sake of coming to power to the detriment of his country? Lenin, of course, is not a spy, he is worse: he is a destroyer of Russian culture, the state and a fighter of the Russian people.
    E.B.N. - also not a spy, but during the putsch for coming to power, he actively used the services and support of the American embassy (Gabriel Popov confirmed this in an interview). Therefore, he is no better than Lenin.

    Where did you see the attempt to justify? The question is whether he was a spy, and not justification for his actions.
  • dmb
    dmb 21 November 2013 13: 24
    +7
    In! Autumn aggravation is progressing. As always, the illiterate gentlemen who condemn Lenin and communism draw their knowledge exclusively from the writings of today's liberal historians. while scolding them with different bad words. If you listen to them, their great-grandfathers are entirely the Ryabushinsky and Mamontovs, well, in extreme cases, "good men" who hired farm laborers solely out of compassion for the latter and paid them, like Chubais to his top managers. And these ungrateful pigs, well, in the sense of the workers there are all sorts of farm laborers, you understand revolutions, started and deprived their great-granddaughters of their legal inheritance. Well, God bless them: "Head, a dark subject is not subject to research." Unlike them, the writer Kolya has a very common sense, and apparently realizing that the indiscriminate criticism of socialism becomes unprofitable, neatly, from opposing Stalin to Lenin, he moves to a reality in which the idea of ​​building socialism was common to them, which actually corresponds to historical reality ...
  • nekromonger
    nekromonger 21 November 2013 13: 35
    +2
    if you want srach, Ukraine and Lenin will always untie him and there are those who want to rekindle him. wassat
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 44
      0
      Quote: nekromonger
      if you want srach, Ukraine and Lenin will always untie him
  • SIT
    SIT 21 November 2013 13: 45
    0
    In the event of the victory of the Entente in WWI, Russia was to receive the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles. This means the Russian Black Sea battleships in the eastern Mediterranean and the "soft underbelly of Europe" (C) U. Churchill) The Balkans are voluntarily part of the Republic of Ingushetia. In this situation, we can already talk about Europe as the vicinity of RI, stretching from Trieste to Vladivostok. The Middle Eastern possessions of the British crown and Egypt are in close proximity to the borders of the Republic of Ingushetia and the Black Sea Fleet will be able to block and gouge the Suez Canal when the Home Fleet does not even reach Gibraltar. This could not be allowed, so the money was invested in any options for the dissolution of Russia or its withdrawal from the war until its end. This is fuss around Rasputin, and various parties, including the Bolsheviks. This option worked. These lessons of history must be taught and disassembled so as not to step on the same rake as in 1917 and 1991.
  • bairat
    bairat 21 November 2013 13: 58
    +2
    Here is an opinion
    The name of the founder of the ideas of world socialism, Karl Marx, has not so long ago been glorified in our country from the highest tribunes. It was his theory that was taken as the basis by the Russian Communist Party, which in 1917 carried out the Great October Socialist Revolution. It is not surprising that Marx for many years in Russia was revered almost as a deity, along with Lenin, Engels and other prominent followers of the "great Marxist doctrine." Almost all prominent Soviet institutions adorned their characteristic bearded profiles. It is curious that all this happened in a country that the founders of communism literally ... hated!

    Yes Yes! Marx and Engels in their lifetime became famous precisely as rabid Russophobes. In the Soviet years, this circumstance was carefully hidden from the people; only sleek works of the “founders” came to us, which did not reflect their true feelings towards Russia. And only after the collapse of the Soviet Union did the truth begin to emerge, revealing the very unsightly appearance of the fathers of Marxism.

    Their Russophobia was not even of a class nature, they rejected the Russians on a racial and tribal basis. Just like the leaders of the fascist Third Reich. No wonder many Western historians believe that Adolf Hitler learned his hatred of the Russian people from Karl Marx.
  • bairat
    bairat 21 November 2013 14: 01
    0
    The peak of Russophobic activity of the “founders” occurred during the Crimean War (1854 - 1856), when a whole coalition of Western countries led by Britain and France attacked Russia. Marx and Engels passionately called for turning this war into a "holy struggle of the European nations" against Russia (surprisingly, with approximately the same slogan, Hitler fought against the Soviet Union in the middle of the twentieth century). Marx literally conjured the Europeans:

    “Kronstadt and St. Petersburg must be destroyed ... Without Odessa, Kronstadt, Riga and Sevastopol with emancipated Finland and a hostile army at the gates of the capital ... what will happen to Russia? A giant without arms, without eyes, which can only try to hit its opponents with blind weight. ”


    A logical question arises - why was the revolutionary socialist ideology of Marx, despite all its Russophobic opuses, supported by the Russian Social Democrats? Yes, because they adhered to exactly the same views on our country as Karl Marx!

    For all of these Lenins, Zinovievs, Kamenevs, Bukharin, Trotsky and other Bolshevik leaders, Russia was just as backward and reactionary a “prison of peoples” requiring good bloodletting. The expression of Lenin about the “true Russian man” as a “great-power scoundrel and rapist” is known. It seems that this Russophobic characteristic is no better than the monstrous utterances of Marx.

    The Bolsheviks, having spent almost half their lives abroad, did not for a long time believe in the possibility of a socialist revolution in Russia, preferring the hegemony of the German and other Western proletariat. They did not believe even when they took power in 1917. They wanted to use our country only as a “bundle of brushwood” (Trotsky’s expression) for the implementation of the world revolutionary fire - and advanced Germany was to become the basis of the new proletarian state.

    But when these plans for the world revolution failed, Marx’s socialist ideas had to be adapted to “backward Russia”. What the Bolshevik Communists did for almost 70 years, hiding from the people the true attitude of the "founders" to our country and to our difficult history.
  • Sharp
    Sharp 21 November 2013 14: 29
    -9
    Personally, how Russian is offended by this stinking mummy in the heart of our country. It's time to take this body from Red Square. On Lenin, direct fault for the genocide of the Russian people. The faster WE ALL UNDERSTAND IT, THERE WILL BE BETTER FOR RUSSIA.
    1. Gur
      Gur 21 November 2013 15: 35
      -1
      Do you not consider the genocide of the Russian people during the reign of the Romanov dynasty? I am not against the burial, but Russia will not get any better and it will not stink any less when I apologize for such idiots (you can pick up a heavy form for yourself) in Russia.
      1. Sharp
        Sharp 21 November 2013 16: 07
        0
        Don’t worry so much. Want to worship the corpse - worship. But it’s not divine. About the idiot - I’m not offended by you. The fact that Russia is stinking now, and not only because of Lenin. I agree. But on the other hand, there is a spiritual rebirth. So it's not evening yet. Russians will still show themselves.
        1. Yarosvet
          Yarosvet 21 November 2013 17: 26
          0
          Quote: Quick-witted
          Don’t worry so much. Want to worship the corpse - worship. But it’s not divine.
          1. Sharp
            Sharp 21 November 2013 18: 05
            -2
            If I were you, I would stop doing blasphemy over the church and the relics of the saints.
            1. Yarosvet
              Yarosvet 21 November 2013 18: 46
              +6
              Quote: Quick-witted
              If I were you, I would stop doing blasphemy over the church and the relics of the saints.

              1 What blasphemy can you declare while in secular space?

              2 this is for you what is in the box in the photo is something holy, but for me it is what the body in the mausoleum is for you - so tie it with double standards and morality.
            2. Gur
              Gur 22 November 2013 08: 28
              +1
              So it hurts you, but why don’t you think about what you are saying, it probably hurts someone too, treat others like you would like others to relate to you.
          2. duke
            duke 22 November 2013 00: 00
            +1
            Orthodox Christianity believes that a person is a soul + spirit + body. And after death, the body, as a part of a "complex" person, in which his immortal soul lived, is treated with respect. For Christians, the body is not just a corpse, but a temple of the spirit, although it was abandoned by it before the time of resurrection.
            The relics are the body of the saint (i.e., the temple of his holy soul), which, by the will of God, has come out of obedience to the fundamental law of our universe - entropy (an abandoned temple is not destroyed).
            It is believed that prayers to the saint are especially well heard by the Lord if the prayer is near the body of the saint, who received the Holy Spirit of God during his earthly life. Or at least parts of his body. This belief is valid, but the story of why it would take up too much space. In any case, this is tested by practice.
            Thus, Christians do not worship pieces of a dead body, or a corpse, as you put it, and not even the saint himself (his immortal soul). They ask the saint for his prayer intercession before the Lord God. And they do this for practical reasons:
            1. God hears the prayer of the saint, because He lived in it during his life than a worldly man.
            2. And the Christian, but not only the saint will hear better if a man gives himself the trouble to get to his holy relics and convert with faith.

            Everything and business. And as you can see, no fetishism and other nonsense. Well, read at least Kuraev "To Protestants about Orthodoxy", he writes quite easily. But worshiping Lenin's corpse is a big mystery to me ... why atheists worship, in this case, really the corpse of an atheist, for whom there is neither God, nor a temple, nor a soul, something your will is not normal in this. And to compare the relics of the saints and the corpse of Lenin, for example, sorry, delirium tremens.
            1. Allegedly
              Allegedly 22 November 2013 00: 12
              +2
              Quote: duke
              why do atheists worship, in this case, the corpse of an atheist


              And you did not think that atheism is also a religion, because people believe that someone or something does not exist. With your own set of values ​​and beliefs. Or, as they say, “Religion is faith in God, atheism is faith in its absence.”
              1. duke
                duke 22 November 2013 04: 18
                0
                yes, it seems you are right ... the main thing is that everything does not end as with Berlioz (not a composer) or with Ivanushka Bezdomny ...
              2. V. Salama
                V. Salama 22 November 2013 16: 34
                0
                Quote: JACOB
                ... atheism is a belief in its absence. ”

                This is a specific type of religious atheism; it should not be identified with classical atheism. Therefore, what you wrote is a half-truth that is worse than a lie, because it is based on facts, and with the help of facts you can prove anything - anything. Of course, I apologize, but this is one of the most sophisticated ways of manipulating consciousness.
            2. V. Salama
              V. Salama 22 November 2013 00: 36
              0
              Quote: duke
              But the worship of the corpse of Lenin is a big mystery to me ... why do atheists worship, in this case, really a corpse ...

              What does worship mean? Are they praying? Why did you decide that? If I came to the grave of my mother, then do I pray "through her temple to God" - do I worship? This is your delirium tremens. Do not manipulate concepts, this is a scam, and for you it is also a sin. Yes, you are not Orthodox at all - you are a jibbering troll.
              1. Allegedly
                Allegedly 22 November 2013 03: 20
                -1
                Quote: V. Salama
                If I came to the grave


                When you visit the graves, then you talk with the deceased? And what happens to you? This is demonism, that is, if someone answers or makes something clear to you in conversation with the deceased in any other way, then these are demons (in the common people the devil). Contact with them is a sin. I in no case do not tell you what to do, to do it or not - you decide.
                1. V. Salama
                  V. Salama 22 November 2013 14: 58
                  +1
                  Quote: JACOB
                  When you visit the graves, then you talk with the deceased? And what happens to you?

                  Not everything in this life can be understood. Some people do not understand a thought even with a hint. It is not always possible to explain what you understand. Perhaps I am not expressing my thoughts well. But why do not you understand the obvious that in this case you are defrauding? Why do you think that an atheist, having come to the grave, necessarily prays, "worships" or talks to the deceased? He doesn't pray, it's obvious. Even if some atheist speaks with the deceased under the influence of grief, I have never observed, but I admit that someone spoke to myself, but often observed it with believers. And what about believers here, is it an appeal to the soul "through the temple of the body"? This is blasphemy and Satanism. This is not your cell phone. I also understand "to turn to God near the body of a saint." Sorry, of course, but you are applying double standards. Do you know what they call people who use such techniques? I do not blame you, you may not do this on purpose.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. duke
                duke 22 November 2013 04: 13
                0
                in my opinion you distort, I just tried to explain my attitude to St. power, although it is probably unsuccessful, or you just obviously did not want to understand. Only now I understand how difficult it is for atheists to understand, for example, Christians and vice versa. But nevertheless, unlike you, I did not insult you, did not call you an evil troll and I don’t think I committed a sin ... stating only my point of view, then the site exists to exchange opinions, and not to bark. Why so much anger? I think for any person the grave of parents is sacred, but if there is no soul, then everything is pointless, you don’t come with your bones to communicate, and even without realizing it, still probably with her soul ??? Probably say, my dear mother ... but to whom are you saying this, because not to yourself, who can hear you if there is no her soul? Therefore, they believe that after death, the soul departs to its Creator, and the body returns to the earth, from where it was taken ... In addition, it is not clear, and here the graves and mausoleum of V.I. Lenin, which is difficult to attribute to them ... in it, then who do you communicate with?
                1. V. Salama
                  V. Salama 22 November 2013 16: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: duke
                  Only now I understand how difficult it is for atheists to understand, for example, Christians and vice versa.
                  In this thought, the keywords are "and vice versa." You judge atheists by your worldview. Understand, finally, that atheists do not communicate with their relatives at the graves and do not worship, much less “hear voices”.
                  Quote: duke
                  Nevertheless, unlike you, I did not insult you, did not call you an evil troll
                  And I was offended, because I have not written on my forehead that I am a sucker, and you counted me as such by carrying out logical manipulations. After all, submitting your statements to the general discussion, you are addressing everyone, including me. That is the principle. Therefore, I decide that you are a troll. And do not shield yourself that they "did not insult" - recall the "delirium tremens"? Why, again, double standards or is it a form of racism such - for you that atheists are already subhuman?
                  Quote: duke
                  in my opinion you distort ...
                  Justify? Or do you think that the believer’s point of view does not require justification and should be taken on faith? You go far, and it’s not far to the bonfires of the Holy Inquisition.
                  Quote: duke
                  Why so much anger?

                  And how else can I demonstrate intolerance for manipulators. The whole misfortune of the Russian people is in patience. If I timely demonstrate intolerance to the negative in life, I’m sure that we wouldn’t get to the state that the code will have to be taken for axes and pitchforks. But if you were sincere when you wrote the post, then I apologize for the harshness, "because you did not know what you were doing." However, you paid deservedly; I have already explained the reason.
                  Quote: duke
                  and I don’t think that I committed a sin ... outlining only my point of view ...
                  I don’t know your canons, but I thought that cheating is a sin. Excuse me, but from the position of an atheist your reasoning is a manipulation of consciousness and a mania of infallibility in judgments.
                  Quote: duke
                  In addition, it is not clear, and here the native graves and mausoleum of V.I. Lenin, which is difficult to attribute to them ... in it, then who do you communicate with?

                  For us, these are just the graves of people close to us, only in some are our family members buried, and in others - the great people of our country. We do not communicate with the dead, we honor their memory, mentally return to the past, to the foundation on which the present stands, we rethink it at a new level and, from this position, we comprehend the present. But everything is not limited to these words, of course, you cannot list everything. And there is no point in "putting you in a bed that is not peculiar to you." I’m just trying to explain to you once again that we don’t worship or talk at the graves.
  • pensioner
    pensioner 21 November 2013 14: 36
    +1
    There wouldn’t be Lenin - there wouldn’t be Stalin, who would bring such people as Trotsky like cockroaches ... And if the Bolsheviks didn’t come to power, nothing special would happen to Russia, of course, it would just hang out like something in an ice hole, like the current Ukraine. And they would kick her and everyone would be lazy to set conditions for her ...
    1. bairat
      bairat 21 November 2013 14: 44
      +1
      I don’t know what kind of life you wish for your country, your comparisons are incomprehensible. In the 20th century, Russia took in so much grief that other countries have not seen for millennia. For me it’s better to hang out in the hole than go through all the possible social experiments.
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 21 November 2013 15: 25
        +4
        Quote: bairat
        I don’t know what kind of life you wish for your country, your comparisons are incomprehensible. In the 20th century, Russia took in so much grief that other countries have not seen for millennia. For me it’s better to hang out in the hole than go through all the possible social experiments.
        Well, as one of the options for what could become with Russia, the Bolsheviks did not come to power — this is the collapse of the state into small sub-states, followed by their annexation by developed countries. And no shocks, wars and social experiments. It’s just that the attitude to the people living in these states on the part of the new owners would be the same as for the Indians in the USA. And it’s not a fact that under those possible conditions your family would have taken and not stopped. Suddenly, so ... The Bolsheviks saved the country from collapse.
        1. bairat
          bairat 21 November 2013 18: 26
          -3
          Without the Bolsheviks, the Republic of Ingushetia would have emerged victorious from World War I; I see no reason for the collapse of the empire.
          1. Sour
            Sour 21 November 2013 18: 41
            0
            Quote: bairat
            Without the Bolsheviks, the Republic of Ingushetia would have emerged victorious from World War I; I see no reason for the collapse of the empire.

            Well and whether figs sense from this victory?
            Somehow I’m never a supporter of the Bolsheviks. Who knows me on this forum will confirm that I am an unconditional anti-communist in all respects.
            But I don’t understand - why did Russia even get involved in this war?
            Or, let's put it this way - why exactly on the side of England?
            Well, the Straits promised Russia. And what's the use of them? They still did not give access to the Ocean. Here you need control over Suez or Gibraltar, and the British had it. These straits were needed by Russia somewhere in the 18th century, but not in the 20th.
            They promised Galicia. Why is it needed? From her harm a hundred times more than good. If not a thousand times, because the benefits of Galicia can not be by definition.
            In addition, the independence of Poland was already predetermined by the same British. The tsar knew about this, therefore, in order to somehow buy the loyalty of the Poles, he did not object and proceeded to the formation of Polish legions. The first Polish division was formed before the February Revolution.
            And so on.
            And why was Russian blood shed? To make the English happy?
            Some draw parallels with 1941, and say that Germany, having captured France, would then attack Russia. But historical parallels are a meaningless thing, without taking into account the real situation. In 1871, for example, Germany also defeated France, but did not even think of attacking Russia. I see only one reason for Russia's participation in the WWI - this is an alliance with England, signed in 1907, and not needed by Russia.
            1. bairat
              bairat 21 November 2013 18: 57
              -1
              The conversation was not about that. In general, I completely agree with what you said, they got into an incomprehensible war and raked to the fullest.
  • Black
    Black 21 November 2013 14: 40
    -3
    Give Mummies in a jacket a worthy place underground !!!
    1. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 14: 43
      0
      Why touch history, Lenin's Mausoleum - protected by UNESCO
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 21 November 2013 14: 58
        -1
        The mausoleum is a monument, and the corpse needs to be buried, we are not Egyptians.
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 21 November 2013 15: 10
          +2
          We have enough examples in Orthodoxy ...
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 21 November 2013 15: 43
            +2
            Quote: klimpopov
            We have enough examples in Orthodoxy ...

            For example?
            1. Ulan
              Ulan 21 November 2013 18: 33
              0
              Russian surgeon Pirogov.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. V. Salama
          V. Salama 21 November 2013 19: 09
          0
          Quote: RUSS
          The mausoleum is a monument, and the corpse needs to be buried, we are not Egyptians.

          We were in the Kiev Pechersk Lavra, this monastery is also a monument, and there, God forgive me, are also corpses. Come to Ukraine and tell the brothers Slavs that they are Egyptians. It would be interesting to see ...
          1. consul
            consul 21 November 2013 22: 54
            +2
            Quote: V. Salama
            We were in the Kiev Pechersk Lavra, this monastery is also a monument, and there, God forgive me, are also corpses. Come to Ukraine and tell the brothers Slavs that they are Egyptians. It would be interesting to see ...

            In this case, it is necessary to declare communism a religion by registering as a religious public association, for example, as the RCC (Russian Communist Church), respectively transferring the remains in the mausoleum to believers in their own care and preservation, and not to spend budget money on this (Answering the question “Russian newspapers ”, how much does it cost to maintain the Mausoleum, which is on the balance of the Federal Security Service, Kozhin noted that the costs of maintaining the temperature regime, security and medical events amount to several tens of millions of rubles a year). Here and let the believers spend it and his ideas people, because the relics of Orthodox saints are kept by believers at their own expense. I think this will be fair. And the place of worship should be brought from Red Square (the state is then secular) to the place where the city government determines.
            1. Yarosvet
              Yarosvet 21 November 2013 23: 08
              +3
              Quote: consul
              accordingly, transferring the remains lying in the mausoleum to believers in their own care and preservation, and not spend budget money on it

              In order to transfer something somewhere, it is completely optional to call religion - this is the first.

              2 - Do you care only about spending government funds on a mausoleum, spending government funds on religious organizations does not bother you?
            2. V. Salama
              V. Salama 21 November 2013 23: 37
              0
              Quote: consul
              In this case, it is necessary to declare communism a religion, registering as a religious public

              According to the rules of logic (there is such a science about the laws of thinking), thought should be presented in the following sequence: "if (because) ..., then (in this case) ...". Here you lack the first part of the thought, but immediately comes "in this case". So state why communism is a religion. Or do you think that the one who buried a relative automatically becomes religious. Or you rest on the method of burial, as there are a great many of them in the world. Or do you insist that for some part of the population Lenin is a "shrine", then all our countries are believers - state emblems, anthems, battle flags, mass graves of those who fell for the Fatherland - all these are shrines for citizens of any country.
              Quote: consul
              ... the costs of maintaining the temperature regime, protection and medical measures amount to several tens of millions of rubles a year ...
              This monument was created by the Soviet country, whose wealth was created by all the people. And this country was robbed by a bunch of crooks. For them, these "expenses" are a penny. So, show them the bill, not the robbed. This will be truly fair.
              Quote: consul
              Yes, and place the place of worship from Red Square (the state is then secular) to the place where the city government determines.
              And the place did not please you? St. Basil's Cathedral is also a place of worship on Red Square in a secular state, you do not propose to move "to a place where the city government will determine." What kind of double standards do you have, however? This is a sign, to say the least, dishonesty.
              1. consul
                consul 22 November 2013 11: 17
                +1
                Quote: V. Salama
                why communism is a religion

                because:
                - there is a subject of worship, an idea;
                - his "sacred" scripture (Marx, Lenin, etc.);
                -songing;
                -icons (from the Greek-image), images of "saints";
                - meeting places in which believers express their unity with the object of worship, the idea;
                Symbols reflecting faith (sickle, hammer);
                - willingness to die for faith (idea) or kill.
                Quote: V. Salama
                This monument was created by the Soviet country, the wealth of which was created by the whole people.

                - who created the wealth, which was destroyed by orders of the initiators of the Soviet country? Who should be presented with the bill? My family came from peasants who had become firmly on their feet and then robbed, my great-grandfather kept the portrait of Emperor Nicholas II for the rest of his life (he served as a soldier in the Preobrazhensky regiment, another great-grandfather was a submariner), how many churches were destroyed and people were crushed, killed. At what price (on both sides) was this Soviet state built?
                Quote: V. Salama
                And the place is what did not please you?

                The view spoils, moreover, its stainless steel beams rust and granite inside collapses (the structure collapses), it would be optimal to transfer the deceased to his homeland. Although few people need it in Simbirsk.
                1. V. Salama
                  V. Salama 22 November 2013 23: 57
                  0
                  Quote: consul
                  ... there is a subject of worship, an idea;

                  What language do you speak now, in everyday? This is the conceptual apparatus of which science? So will you fill the concepts with your own content? Very comfortably...
                  Understand that in communism there are no objects of worship, and you are still confusing the idea with the object of worship. Even you, I think, worship God, not the Bible.
                  Quote: consul
                  ... his "sacred" scripture (Marx, Lenin, etc.);

                  I heard that dialectical materialism is being studied in theological seminaries. You are clearly not her listener. Does the word "dialectic" mean anything to you? It would have been easier to identify a mathematics textbook with scripture. There are more dogmas there.
                  Quote: consul
                  ... chants;
                  This is you "Heart of a Dog" reviewed in abundance, I think. By the way, Bulgakov ridiculed the shortcomings and excesses that took place, while, unlike Solzhenitsyn, for example, he did not try to pass off a part as a whole, since it was he who owns the statement: "You cannot write a libel on the Great October Socialist Revolution due to the significance of this event." The communists have no more chants than the "nashists". Or do you have Levada-Cent's statistics on this matter?
                  Quote: consul
                  ... icons (from the Greek - image), images of "saints";

                  Did you understand what you wrote yourself? "Icon" originates from the Greek image, not from the Russian image. From which side a photograph, a portrait - an image (appearance) receive the status of an icon, especially since you yourself write the "saints" depicted on them in quotation marks. Why did the General Secretary suddenly become a "saint"? Or have you ever seen a communist praying for a portrait of Stalin? There is such a phrase "the modern look of the Armed Forces", can you tighten this concept under the icon? And what if you can, the country will thank you.
                  Quote: consul
                  - places of assembly in which believers express their unity with the object of worship, the idea

                  It’s clear that you weren’t at the party meeting. You do not own the subject of discussion, and it turns out that you are lying. Or is it you about the parade that used to be on November 7th, so this is an element of the holiday. Or maybe you are talking about protest demonstrations? You and military exercises are considered an attribute of religion. That's where everyone certainly has unity with one idea. The decision of the Commander is called.
                  Quote: consul
                  ... symbols reflecting faith (sickle, hammer);

                  In philosophy, there is a doctrine of "knowledge and faith." It passed you by. For this reason, you have privatized the concept of faith, considering that all faith is faith in God and nothing more. So, for example, having set any goal for himself, any person can only believe in this goal, until the moment of its practical implementation in the result. When he can no longer believe, but know about the degree of its achievement. So the concept of faith is not only an attribute of religion. Let me remind you the question, the subject that you chose for discussion was the question “Why is communism a religion?” Do not jump off the subject of discussion, substituting concepts. By the way, what religion is the attribute of the state symbols of a secular state? Can you tighten up ...?
                  1. consul
                    consul 23 November 2013 14: 05
                    0
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    there are no objects of worship in communism

                    I try to speak a plain spoken language, in this case I am writing about the essence, not about physical bows. Are you not a fan of the idea of ​​communism? Do you believe in communism? That he will help solve problems, etc. Here the subject of worship and the idea have one meaning.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    There are more dogmas.

                    We did not have such an object, and there is no need for it. But hey, do not the Communists in their views rely on the works (words) of Lenin, Marx and the like? We rely on the word of God written in the Bible, and it is scripture for us. What is wrong here?
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    Communists chants

                    "Heart of a dog" has nothing to do with it, the chants reflect what the singers believe in. "International" does not reflect?
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    icon status

                    So I wrote that it is from the Greek.-image. I realized that you do not know what the icon is. We do not worship the boards and paints or the image, but to Tom or those who are depicted in them, in the absence of the icon (for various reasons ) you can use the photo of the icon. Looking at the photo of the parents, we remember them and, not seeing them near us, honor them, and also store these photos in a place of honor. As for the icon, I wrote in quotation marks, because for me they not saints or authorities. And the Communists hang portraits of Lenin and Stalin in a very honorable place and does not necessarily pray in front of them.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    at the party meeting

                    Well, I observed the congresses of the CPSU on TV; it is quite possible to draw an analogy with a kind of ministry with a sermon.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    have a teaching

                    And where did the sickle and hammer come from on the state emblem? What idea bearers painted there? In general, it is amazing how cleverly they replaced one ministry (religion) with another, even the code of the builder of communism was stolen from the commandments of God. Anyone looking at a sickle and a hammer crossed associates them with the communist idea, as well as Christians with the cross.
                2. V. Salama
                  V. Salama 23 November 2013 00: 08
                  0
                  Quote: consul
                  ... willingness to die for faith (idea) or kill

                  Let this remain your self-study task. I have so many reasons and reasons to disappoint you.
                  Quote: consul
                  ... and who created the wealth that was destroyed by orders of the initiators of the Soviet country?

                  Wealth was created by the long-suffering people of our country, while not only material, but also spiritual values ​​and scientific achievements were created. But as for what was destroyed - there could be more details, but only in relation to what was created and created. I assure you that the score will not be in your favor. You will drown "in the run for infinity".
                  Quote: consul
                  to whom to present the bill? My kind come from peasants who have become firmly on their feet and then robbed ...
                  It was not necessary to insert it here. It is necessary to approach this clearing without emotions and with knowledge of the history of the country, and not just the tragedy of your family. And only to those who do not assess the situation in the country from the perspective of their own stomach. I would not want to upset you, but how much can you carry a cahine with impunity? Therefore, I won’t be aloof, I’m not a diplomat yet, I can say it may not be tactful, but short: the bill should be presented to those who more than avenged your family by robbing the country and concentrating all its wealth in their hands. Assess your damage in terms of the prices of the events described (here, by the way, the detailed circumstances of the situation will be important) and send the bill ... I won’t tell you here - you will guess.
                  Quote: consul
                  At the cost of what blood (on both sides) is this Soviet state built?

                  Here the key combination will be "on both sides". At the cost of even more blood, we won the Great Patriotic War and there are still disputes over who is to blame for this more - Hitler or Stalin. Doesn't this seem strange to you? But in any case, the price was blood and a lot. So "big blood" in itself is not an argument.
                  Quote: consul
                  There is no excuse for this blood. It's all exactly what an abortion is justified by the lack of money for a refrigerator.
                  Given the above, I hope that here again you have something from the field of alien logic. In addition, you don’t see the cause-effect relationship between war and blood? This blood is the deed paid, for the result, for victory in the war. If you think this price is too high, your right, but explain why? Maybe if you participated in those events, would you be able to prevent such blood?
                  1. consul
                    consul 23 November 2013 14: 14
                    0
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    and so many reasons and reasons to disappoint you

                    - here you do not upset me in anything, alas.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    emotionless

                    Emotions? No, one episode out of many (my family). But this - "who more than avenged your family, robbing the country and concentrating all its wealth in your hands" I will leave it on your conscience, although what I am talking about, you- The materialist, however, does not exist that is not visible.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    in itself, just "big blood" is not an argument.

                    "big blood" is not an argument? millions killed for construction (industrialization, collectivization, suppression of uprisings, famines) of the USSR is not an argument? And do not talk about the Great Patriotic War, we are talking about the period before it. Excuse me, you probably have a "Stockholm syndrome".
                    1. V. Salama
                      V. Salama 24 November 2013 21: 15
                      0
                      Quote: consul
                      I try to speak a plain spoken language ...
                      This is necessary with the seller in the bakery in conversation or with someone who does not know another, but in serious things you should talk in a single system of concepts - in the general scientific. The problem with the spoken language is that the speaker, due to lack of education, as well as the genetically embedded ability of a person to lie, begins, in accordance with motivation, to fill concepts with his content. Motivation is an internal, psychological, conscious or unconscious internal motive source of human actions, which gives them focus and supports their activity. And, if the speaker has problems with education, then he does not even imagine how unrespectable he looks at the same time. You constantly, possibly unknowingly distort (cheat), for example:
                      Quote: consul
                      in this case I am writing about the essence, not about physical bows

                      Nobody even talked about physical bows - turn around, like in a frying pan. When you are comfortable using the term "worship" to denote the religious concept of "spiritual worship" (reverently), I begin to oppose you, to prove that there is no such worship in communism and you, with manic-depressive stubbornness, accuse me that it is I mean worship - flexion of the back and, with renewed vigor, in the second circle. You already cheated when you replaced the term "pray" with "physical bow". Indeed, the swindler has all his cards marked. " I repeat, there is no worship in communism - neither spiritual, nor loving, not at all. And enough of these stupid attempts to "tighten the muda to the beard." Better to improve your education, otherwise "you are so sharp here to impossibility," I will also feel guilty. "I am writing about the essence ..." - do not tell, where did you write about the essence of worship? I myself have to guess what you mean and give you an educational program for free.
                      Quote: consul
                      So, are you not a fan of the idea of ​​communism?
                      In your sense, I am not a fan of the idea of ​​communism, just like you, I think, not a fan of Ohm's law, for example. Do not pull up household items for phenomena whose meaning you do not understand.
                      Quote: consul
                      Do you believe in communism? That he will help solve problems

                      Do you believe in a shovel, that it will help solve problems? A shovel is a tool, a tool, just like communism. You don’t talk like that in everyday life - "I will dig up this whole field in a day, because I truly believe in the power of a shovel." This will be delirium tremens. Communism is both a goal and, at the same time, a means of ensuring the well-being of the working people. I believe (not yet disappointed) in the human mind and in the fact that this is the only means of human survival. I believe in the possibility of its construction (as the possibility of an acceptable achievement of this goal). But I have already explained that faith is not necessarily an attribute of religion, it is a concept and theories of efficiency, for example. There is no need to usurp the right to the concept of "faith". What is looping you?
                      1. V. Salama
                        V. Salama 24 November 2013 21: 18
                        0
                        Quote: consul
                        Here the subject of worship and the idea have one meaning.
                        Absolutely illiterate. Do I need to hold classes with you? I did not sign. "Teaching is light, ... ah, you have to pay for the light."
                        Quote: consul
                        We did not have such an object, and there is no need for it

                        I'm out. "Mathematics should be studied at least for the sake of putting the mind in order." Where did you get your education, I wonder? Well, okay - if you don't know mathematics, take an arithmetic textbook: twice two is four. Whatever statement in this science is a dogma.
                        Quote: consul
                        "Heart of a dog" has nothing to do with it, the chants reflect what the singers believe in. "International" does not reflect?

                        Jumping off topic again? Stir up the water. What can a song reflect in the world? Anything - joy, grief, faith, hope, love, compassion, longing, mood ... What does the "International" have to do with it? Want to pull him up to prayer? It will not work, a song is a song, and each time and situation has its own songs. For example, it would be easier for me to go into battle with the song "Varyag".
                        Quote: consul
                        So I wrote that from the Greek.-image. I realized that you do not know what an icon is.

                        Do not hang "your dogs" on me - I know perfectly well what an icon is and, unlike you, who does not know what an "atheist" is, I know perfectly well what a person who believes in God is, moreover, he ate the Orthodox faith. And everything that you wrote further here is what? Who are you refuting yourself here? I explained to you earlier that portraits are not icons, and therefore not an attribute of religion, under which you wanted to pull them up. Stir up the water again?
                        Quote: consul
                        ... it is quite possible to draw an analogy with a kind of ministry with a sermon.
                        The analogy is a dangerous thing, you can get very pierced. Without delving into the essence and not taking into account a sufficient totality of the essential in the phenomenon, it is possible to take the congress of any party as an analogy of service and sermon. And what, you will pull them to religion. For primitive man in general - a microscope is an analogue of a hammer for breaking nuts. And what good example with your analogy?
                        Quote: consul
                        The bearers of what idea painted them there?

                        What are you stupid? The dumb one understands that this is the symbolism of the socialist state. What does religion have to do with it? For those who are on the armored train, I ask the question again: "Which religion is the attribute of the state symbols of the SECRET state? Pull up ...., would you be so kind as to go to an abstract level in reasoning, or again it is not clear what I mean? So look in the textbook, or ask anyone else. be.
                      2. V. Salama
                        V. Salama 24 November 2013 21: 29
                        0
                        Quote: consul
                        In general, it is amazing how cleverly they replaced one ministry (religion) with another, even the code of the builder of communism was stolen from the commandments of God

                        It’s your gurus who washed your brain, you haven’t even read this code. Although if you read, then to see an analogy to you and to hell with a finger will not be difficult. In addition, do not try to privatize the Good and the concept of it, accumulated by the thinkers of mankind, and otmazatsya from Evil, which you have done enough, hanging all the dogs on communism. And your religion will remain for you, but communism is not re-li-i-i. And do not equate "service" with "religion." They also serve in the army and in the civil service.
                        Quote: consul
                        Anyone looking at a sickle and a hammer crossed associates them with a communist idea, just like Christians with a cross
                        It is possible that those. Older people know what it is and associate it even with an idea, even with a socialist state. The symbol is the symbol. What does religion have to do with it?
                        Quote: consul
                        Emotions? Yes no. One episode out of many (my family).

                        Do not be mischievous, otherwise I am now "recalling episodes" will become sickening. Don't you understand the thick hints? I can, after all, walk in plain text.
                        Quote: consul
                        I’ll leave it on your conscience, although what I’m talking about

                        What did you mean? I can prove that you have no idea what conscience is.
                        Quote: consul
                        Those. millions of people killed for construction (industrialization, collectivization, suppression of uprisings, famines) the USSR is not an argument?

                        Are you stupid again? You don’t even get into the analogy, you analogy lover. We are talking about a fratricidal war in which irreconcilable contradictions were resolved with blood. "Millions killed" is the price of the carnage only. It seems that you are not hanging out on your website, you do not understand that any war, even the most just, any murder of a person by a person, even an inveterate criminal, is immoral. It was necessary to think and be clever earlier, before the massacre, and when the massacre began, it was not necessary to think - it was necessary to cut. And your side had to think about the consequences, in fact, the October Revolution took place bloodlessly.
                        Quote: consul
                        Excuse me, you probably have "Stockholm Syndrome".

                        No, we will do without apologies, you are here carrying on with a sage look. Pull up the "syndrome" to the context, please, otherwise, not only me, but no one will see the connection.
                      3. consul
                        consul 1 December 2013 14: 22
                        0
                        Quote: V. Salama
                        this code

                        rather, you did not read the commandments of God. And who is this "we" - who hung all the dogs on communism? I understand the Evil in your concept - hanging dogs on communism? Thank you for explaining that they serve in the army and in the civil service, but writing ministry meant that they replaced serving God with serving communism (his idea, of course).
                        Quote: V. Salama
                        "I recall episodes"

                        Why didn't they "remember"? Emotions in a conversation spoil it, therefore I avoid them. Unlike Vas. For me, those who came to power in 17g. and in the 90s - the Gucumbers from the same bank. Both of them robbed the people and began to divide the country.
                        Quote: V. Salama
                        Dumb again?

                        You are not even trying to hear the interlocutor or deliberately trying to write in this style. You have a good "irreconcilable contradiction" - for example, Lenin's decree on abortion of November 19, 1920 - for the first time in the world the legalization of the murder of children, decossackization, enslavement of peasants, and such that serfdom never dreamed of (working for sticks, workdays, without the opportunity to leave the village, I live in the village, I know what I say), the release of prisoners from prisons. It's really true, if you tell a man his whole life a pig, he grunts. Love to a rapist and there is a "Stockholm syndrome". Do not drag the people dumbfounded by the "dull gevolytsionegs" (their lists are not difficult to find) to communism and its "achievements", they survived against their wishes, and, I believe, will survive.
                    2. consul
                      consul 1 December 2013 14: 17
                      0
                      Quote: V. Salama
                      under prayer

                      I’m not jumping off at all, the International is not an everyday song, but an anthem of the communist idea. And I didn’t say that it was a prayer, but a hymn reflecting the views of the Communists, like church hymns, Christian beliefs. Only church ones can also be a prayer.
                      Quote: V. Salama
                      icon

                      - yes, my fault, I forgot to put quotes when I wrote - icons of "saints", it was necessary - "icons" of "saints". In our village, for an accidentally torn portrait of Stalin (when they hung on the wall) one was shot "for sabotage."
                      Quote: V. Salama
                      Dumb understand

                      - In general, this symbolism BECAME the symbolism of the USSR, and its bearers came up with the ideas of communism, what do you not see the obvious? And, I repeat, they identify it with communism.
                  2. consul
                    consul 1 December 2013 14: 12
                    0
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    This is with the seller in the bakery

                    - since the light of your mind and education is not initially visible from the monitor, and I don’t know you either (like you do me), then the conversation is conducted in a clear conversation and here you are no different from the seller in the bakery, but I respect you to both.
                    Quote: V. Salama
                    under the phenomena

                    communism is not a science, comparison is not correct. But, of course, I understand that you are not a fan of the idea in my concept, and that faith is not only an attribute of religion. I believe in God, that faith in Him and the fulfillment of the commandments God's only means of survival for mankind.
                    Dialectical materialism is not mathematics, but a direction in philosophy, a materialistically interpreted Hegelian dialectic, which is the philosophical basis of Marxism. There really is no such thing, but law has a place with it, like with other areas of philosophy. In the USSR, the diamat became a quasi-religious cult with its “sacred Scripture ”- the writings of the classics of Marxism-Leninism, considered to be infallible, quotes from which were absolute arguments in any discussion. The dogmatism of dialectical materialism found its extreme expression in the Short Course of the History of the CPSU (B.), Which became the catechism of this cult. I would not confuse philosophy with mathematics that brings the mind in order.
                  3. V. Salama
                    V. Salama 2 December 2013 16: 11
                    0
                    Quote: consul
                    rather, you did not read the commandments of God.
                    What are you talking about? Take the Commandments, the Code and compare. Perhaps you were misled by the fact that you took for granted someone's assertion that Jesus Christ was the first communist on Earth?
                    Quote: consul
                    I understand the evil in your concept, hanging dogs on communism?
                    Why are you so dull? Evil is slander, and injustice, and much more. Nobel laureate, German writer Thomas Mann argued that "only anti-communism can be more vile than communism." What is it you can guess?
                    Quote: consul
                    ... meant that they replaced the service of God with the service of communism
                    These are all parts of your whole. I had to consistently refute your ideas that communism is a religion. If you believe in God, then who can replace your faith with faith in communism?
                    Quote: consul
                    Why didn't you "remember"?
                    Firstly, there isn’t enough space here. Secondly, you still won’t believe me that clergymen are also people and can be instigators, provocateurs and organizers of bloody rebellions, for which many have paid.
                    Quote: consul
                    For me, those who came to power in 17g. and in the 90s, cucumbers from one can.

                    Do not see the difference? They say that happiness is in ignorance. This is so in your opinion - a sin to taste from the tree of knowledge. But Stalin argued that ignorance is the greatest vice of man. Even Leonardo da Vinci divided people into three categories: 1. - those who see; 2. - those to whom point and they will see; 3. - those who never see. I dare to supplement the thinker, because I believe that you belong to a special, fourth group of people - those who have already “seen” their own, taking on faith what they have been taught, are unable and unwilling to understand the other, but only blame others for misunderstanding and unwillingness to understand yourself.
                    Quote: consul
                    You don’t even try to hear your interlocutor or you intentionally try to write in this style
                    Well and specifically - what thought did I not hear?
                    Quote: consul
                    You have a good "irreconcilable contradiction" - for example, Lenin's decree on abortion of November 19, 1920 - for the first time in the world, the legalization of the murder of children
                    Actually, “irreconcilable contradictions” include, for example, “the contradiction between the social nature of production and the private ownership form of appropriation of a manufactured product”. And you didn’t understand what you wrote - even in the USSR (after the “Lenin decree”), according to official statistics, more than 2500 young women from clandestine abortions died annually. Compare - in the nine years of the war in Afghanistan, a little less than 14 thousand young men died (divide by 9 if there was no mathematics and compare). Or do not you see the difference here?
                    Quote: consul
                    ... tumbling, ...
                    History must be taught, write do not understand what. Even before the start of the Second World War, Stalin gave the Cossacks the opportunity to rehabilitate themselves. Or do you confuse “slander” with “dispossession” filling the latter with its own content?
                  4. V. Salama
                    V. Salama 2 December 2013 16: 17
                    0
                    Quote: consul
                    ... enslavement of peasants, and such that serfdom did not even dream of (working for sticks-workdays, without the opportunity to leave the village, I live in the village, I know what I'm saying) ...
                    You don’t know anything. What enslavement are we talking about? What are you talking about? Are you repeating someone's nonsense again? How is it that it turned out that over the ten pre-war years the number of the working class in cities increased by 19 million people? Everyone came from villages and villages. “Ability to leave the village?” And what hindered? Here the key question is - for what? If you don’t want to get a passport in the region (until 17 the majority of peasants had no passports at all, the passportization of the population ended in 1957 - part of the population didn’t even have surnames - for example, our Minister of Defense S. Shoigu) you can go to the city with a Birth Certificate or by certificate (get in the village council). What fables? And workdays? - I worked it all in a month and a half and walk to your market.
                    In those years, the average city dweller had to work out 274 days in a year (the rest was Sundays, holidays and vacations), and for 273 days they could even condemn. And how much did the collective farmer work?
                    "Before the collective farm system, as O. Platonov writes, the average peasant worked on his farm 92 days a year. The collective farmers divided the income of the collective farms by workdays. A workday is not a working day, but a certain amount of work, the norm: to mow a certain area, weed or plow The foremost workers earned dozens of workdays per day.However, the aforementioned scientists report that even with such an account in 1939, the minimum that needed to be worked out on the collective farm was set - from 60 to 100 workdays per year. you can sit in the bazaar for months, being considered a full-fledged builder of communism.
                    http://warrax.net/93/14/kolhoz1.html
                    xxxxx
                    Quote: consul
                    ... release of prisoners from prisons.
                    You here will decide - is it good or bad? You will not understand, then you have a Gulag country - "love for the rapist", then "release" ... Again "all the cards are marked" - depending on the situation, you can present the same thing as evil and good. Just in case, let me remind you that it was an unwise move in terms of the struggle for power among the Soviet "elite". By the way, what kind of "rapist" are we talking about? The Soviet state is an instrument for protecting the interests of the working people, by definition.
                    Quote: consul
                    Do not drag the people duped by "dull gevolyutsionags" (their lists are not difficult to find) do not drag in communism and its "achievements"

                    Did you understand what you wrote yourself? I do not imply communism with the "duped people". There is nothing for the fools to do. Various rogues can be "attached" to communism, it has always been. I hope you see the difference between "righteous" and "preacher"? Why don't you see the difference between a "communist" and a "member of the CPSU" or "duped"?
                    Quote: consul
                    ... he survived contrary to their desires, and, I believe, will survive.
                    You lied here, not shy - about "their desires." Who wished, decide? At the expense of faith - your will, I do not discuss issues of faith. Although, there are too many reasons to doubt this belief, under your authority - what is being done to the people and the country - do not you see?
                  5. V. Salama
                    V. Salama 2 December 2013 16: 22
                    0
                    Quote: consul
                    ... I’m not jumping off at all, the International is not an everyday song, but an anthem of the communist idea. And I didn’t say that this is a prayer, but a hymn reflecting the views of the Communists
                    Don't you jump off? Disingenuous, however. And what do you want to prove to me - remember? Why is the Anthem an attribute of religion? Why is a song reflecting the "views" of anyone else this is a sign of religion? Moreover, you yourself claim that you did not say that this is a prayer. So are you proving or refuting that communism is a religion?
                    Quote: consul
                    ... I forgot to put quotation marks when I wrote - icons of "saints", it was necessary - "icons" of "saints"
                    Similarly - how do you prove or refute here that communism is a religion?
                    Quote: consul
                    ... in general, this symbolism BECAME the symbolism of the USSR, and its bearers came up with the ideas of communism, what do you not see the obvious? And, again, they identify it with communism.
                    What is commonplace? What do you mean, you want to prove that communism is a religion? It seems that you don’t even know the letters - as much as you can about the same thing - read it carefully again, delve into the meaning and try, at least for yourself, to answer the question:
                    “…. it is clear that this is the symbolism of the socialist state. What does religion have to do with it? … .. I ask the question again (approx. For the third time): "The attribute of which religion is the state symbols of the SOVIET state?"
                    Attention! The key word here is "secular." I asked to go to the abstract level (if you remember?) - i.e. Do not take specifically the USSR.
                    Quote: consul
                    ... then the conversation is conducted on an understandable colloquial ...
                    What is the disadvantage of spoken language - I have already explained. He also explained that it is pointless to discuss this specific subject at the household level.
                    Quote: consul
                    ... and here you are no different from the seller in the bakery

                    And here is where? On the site of "Military Review"? You and the examiner in special disciplines declare? The difference here is that with the seller in the bakery, discussing such topics is clearly absurd. And an attempt to reduce to absurdity is also a characteristic.
                    Quote: consul
                    Dialectical materialism is not mathematics,

                    This teaching, which is today a universal means of analysis.
                    Quote: consul
                    The dogmatism of dialectical materialism found its extreme expression in the Short Course of the History of the CPSU (B.)
                    Not only did you manage to lie twice in one sentence, but you also demonstrate an extreme degree of non-ownership of the subject under discussion .. Firstly, “Dogmatism of dialectical materialism” is a pearl worthy of a diagnosis. Secondly, pulling up the diamate to the Short Course of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks is not even “... to the beard”, it is a pure “squirrel”. By the way, you’re talking about philosophy in vain, it’s even cooler than mathematics. The problem is that the teachers didn’t become good, but to figure it out for yourself is to put life and there is no guarantee of the result, if it is possible that “the grains will fall on the meager land”.
          2. V. Salama
            V. Salama 24 November 2013 21: 39
            0
            Yes, I almost forgot:
            Quote: consul
            You are a materialist, but what is not visible does not exist.

            Again, they messed up everything, they bought a cheap campaign, but here too they were blown away - they messed up the atheist with the materialist.
            So, write down - That which is not visible, that does not exist - this is an element of "feminine" logic, so again pull the salty to the long one.
            And do not confuse scientific atheism with religious.
            1. consul
              consul 1 December 2013 14: 41
              0
              Quote: V. Salama
              And do not confuse scientific atheism with religious.

              Please, give a definition of conscience from the point of view of scientific atheism, what it is, where it comes from and why. If, of course, it does not burden you.
              In response to your exhortations to improve my education (for which I am grateful) I will give you the order to improve the culture of communication. With respect.
            2. V. Salama
              V. Salama 2 December 2013 16: 29
              0
              Quote: consul
              ... define conscience from the point of view of scientific atheism, ...
              I do not see the point. The fact is that understanding one of the definitions of a concept or their insufficient combination will not mean that you have mastered this concept. Any definition (definition) reflects only the totality of what is essential from the standpoint of a particular researcher, this is just an aspect of a multifaceted object, one of its sides. For example, there are more than 300 highly scientific, definitions of the concept of “management” and all of them do not contradict each other, but mutually complement themselves. I, because I don’t know the level of your training and your problems, can give some of the most general definitions, but it will do little. Do you want, do not want, and in these matters you have to start with the so-called "providing" concepts. Do I need to give a lecture here?
              Therefore, for brevity, I will give you a hint in the essential - where to start. In this issue, in particular, the concept of “justice” will be significant. The fact is that this concept, like many similar ones, is a party one (the CPSU has nothing to do with it). Partisanship (from Latin pars - part) is a socio-political position of a person, it is a principle of ideology, that is, an objectively existing phenomenon. The principle of partisanship in the knowledge of social processes was first introduced by Aristotle and instructs us to distinguish - from the standpoint of the interests of which social layer (class) this or that type of activity is carried out. That is, what is fair for some (corvee - 10%) is not fair for others. Further, you have to master the concepts of “morality” and “morality” - to analyze the situation when we act morally, but at the same time it’s immoral. Decide on the concept of "responsibility." Only then, perhaps, will it make sense to talk about conscience - the person’s internal representation of the proper (correct) and moral responsibility for following this right.
              Quote: consul
              ... I will give you the order to increase the culture of communication
              Thank you, of course, but I think that it is not at the address. Let me remind you - it was not I who first started, it was you who put the delirium tremens on those who do not suffer from it. I can recall the rest and call a spade a spade. What you did - in my mind - is evil, and "he who does not oppose evil, he collaborates with him." This is my motivation.
              Any statement is relative, but it is in this case that the statement that it is necessary to speak with the opponent in his language is true. So here I just paid you the same coin, and even tried to explain it in the course of our controversy.
    2. V. Salama
      V. Salama 23 November 2013 00: 10
      -1
      Quote: consul
      The view spoils ...

      There are statements, the rationality of which is not refuted, for example: "There is no dispute about tastes (matters of faith)." So, for my taste - the view does not spoil. Moreover, it is obvious to me that everything that reminds you of the Soviet past spoils your view. This means that the correct conclusions have not been drawn and, apparently, you and I, like our grandfathers, are still chopping each other into cabbage with checkers. Then we'll start to be smart - haven't we spilled three buckets of unnecessary blood?
      Quote: consul
      ... moreover, stainless steel beams rust and granite inside is destroyed

      In a normal society, monuments are monitored and repaired in a timely manner.
      Quote: consul
      ... optimal would be the transfer to the homeland of the deceased. Although few people need it in Simbirsk.
      You managed to lie twice in the same phrase, and you don’t understand the meaning of the word “optimal”.
  • Turkestan
    Turkestan 21 November 2013 15: 47
    +2
    You need to know and respect the history of your native country. Since the 17th century, graveyards existed near the Kremlin wall. On the territory of the Kremlin, the remains of kings and clergy are still buried. Near the St. Basil's Cathedral there are also burial places of past centuries. Near the Kremlin wall there is a mass grave where several hundred soldiers who died in 4 are buried. Both the Mausoleum of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and the Honorary Necropolis near the Kremlin wall were accepted for state protection in accordance with the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the RSFSR of December 1974, 20 and the decree of the President of the country of February 1995, XNUMX. Please note: by decree issued already under the current government. These historical monuments are inscribed on the UNESCO World Heritage List. The current Constitution of the Russian state is also violated, which states that everyone is obliged to take care of preserving their historical heritage and to preserve historical and cultural monuments.
    Attempts to redraw the historical appearance of Red Square have political reasons and can only lead to destabilization of society.

    The law of the Russian Federation “On burial and funeral business” provides: if there is no testament of the deceased to rest in a particular cemetery and there is no consent of relatives about the reburial, his remains should remain buried in the same place. Attempts to prove that there will be a testament that VI Lenin would be buried in the Volkovo cemetery are unsuccessful.
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 21 November 2013 15: 55
      -1
      Burial places in the center of Moscow This is the BURNINGS, and Lenin’s body is not buried, bury your god on Red Square, for that matter.
  • DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 21 November 2013 16: 13
    +4
    I remember many Russian Orthodox churches; priests were buried. Coffins stand in rows, on them it is written who lies there. Lenin's body rests at 2 meters below ground level, only under transparent glass. This does not contradict any Christian canons. Not a single monarchist after the abdication of Nicholas from the throne made a call to restore Nicholas to the throne. Even ardent monarchists, in Nicholas 2 did not see the king !!!! Lenin is a great figure, not only for the USSR and Russia, but for the whole world. If Lenin and Stalin weren’t, Russia would be destroyed.
  • erg
    erg 21 November 2013 16: 18
    +7
    I read the comments. Most of them - a banal bickering, who kind of cooler, plus even insulting each other. Think about this. If not for the revolution of the 17th year, Lenin, Trotsky and others like them, Stalin, etc. If the history of the country went a different way, we would all exist who are now sitting and knocking on the clave, trying to prove that he knows everything better. History is made by the people and affects the people. So my maternal grandfather and grandmother met only because there was the Great Patriotic War. Because it was she who threw my grandfather to the regions where my grandmother lived. And if it were not for the war, we would not have met, my mother and me would not have been, respectively. No, maybe they would have children - from others. So it is with all those living. Events in the country affect its inhabitants, including the choice of the person with whom they go on through life and create families, have children. So, to some extent, we are all the products of those events that are far away for us. And would they go differently, would we exist? Frankly, who is ready to go into oblivion (if this would be possible), so that the story goes differently? How many are there? (probably everyone likes to live)
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 21 November 2013 17: 07
      +4
      Quote: erg
      Most of them - a banal bickering, who kind of cooler, plus even insulting each other. Think about this. If not for the revolution of the 17 of the year, Lenin, Trotsky and others like them, Stalin, etc. If the history of the country went differently, we would all exist who are now sitting and knocking on the clave, trying to prove that he knows everything better.


      if not for the Bolsheviks-we would not have been.

      ... Frankly, who is ready to go into oblivion (if this would be possible), so that the story goes differently? How many are there? (then everyone probably likes to live) ...

      - I'm ready. angry The Germans burned my relatives alive, in Civil and Great my family lost almost 200 people - I waved without looking for them to live.
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 21 November 2013 21: 09
        +1
        Carlsonn !! I'm glad to see you! I wrote you a message earlier ... I, as the son of a communist and the grandson of a security officer, well, I can’t calmly react to assaults on the Bolsheviks ... And I still didn’t include the language ... And I can. But not with anyone - I feel (intellectually) ... All anti-communists are extremely emotional individuals ... Once again, Carlson- hi hi hi
  • Yarosvet
    Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 49
    -1
    The article is another vyser on the topic:
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 21 November 2013 16: 51
      -1
      -------------------------------------
    2. ivshubarin
      ivshubarin 21 November 2013 17: 33
      0
      The same pictures could be shot in the USSR
      1. Yarosvet
        Yarosvet 21 November 2013 18: 31
        0
        Quote: ivshubarin
        The same pictures could be shot in the USSR

        Yeah - you can ... Years up to 25-27
        1. ivshubarin
          ivshubarin 21 November 2013 18: 36
          -1
          Vologda region, Kich Gorodetsky district, s.V-Griva years 70-80. There is no light, the school is 25 km away, there are no roads, there is no connection
          1. Yarosvet
            Yarosvet 21 November 2013 21: 35
            -1
            Quote: ivshubarin
            Vologda region, Kich Gorodetsky district, s.V-Griva years 70-80. There is no light, the school is 25 km away, there are no roads, there is no connection


            Are you consciously trying to equate isolated cases in the USSR with what was the general norm for RI? belay

            And in general - what are the reasons for the state of affairs that is indicated in your example (for some reason, you modestly kept silent about this)?
            1. ivshubarin
              ivshubarin 22 November 2013 02: 10
              -1
              Yes, almost the entire outback lived like that, the light was already conducted at EBN. Come down from heaven
  • T-73
    T-73 21 November 2013 16: 51
    +3
    Quote: Anti-aircraft gunner
    Having received power, the interim government did not understand what to do with this good.

    Yes, they knew that they simply did not need to do anything. There was a war and it was enough to paralyze power. The illegitimate government did an excellent job. Note: the majority emigrated and spent the rest of their lives wonderfully there, and not in Russia. This, of course, was not a club of suicides (I mean political ones), but Kerensky released all political prisoners. Okay. We are cool, we have overthrown the king. But under 100 thousand criminals, too, was released. Destabilization, or rather the creation of chaos in Russia, was their goal. What next
    Quote: Anti-aircraft gunner
    in October 17, the Bolsheviks and picked up a useless and ruined state.

    after all, someone had to answer for the devastation. The perfect combination of our unkind old fish lovers in troubled waters. After all, even now Lenin is to blame for everything. Do they write a lot about Judas Kerensky? Or the tyrant Milyukov? However, none of them was a German spy, which would have been documented. Only indirect ... assumptions. But judging by the "results of activities, so to speak, to evaluate, then I agree
    Quote: Ulan
    The sins of the Bolsheviks are certainly higher than the roof and blood on them, too. For which they subsequently received what they deserved from Stalin and his comrades-in-arms. But there is no sin of the collapse of the Russian Empire on them.
  • sdv68
    sdv68 21 November 2013 17: 08
    +2
    Quote: leon-iv
    He was a complete asshole. Which, for the sake of power, destroyed the country, deliberately signed the Brest Peace, etc., etc. Writing is even disgusting. And the hedgehog brought to power monsters like Trotsky.



    It was not the Bolsheviks who began to destroy the country. The Provisional Government, led by Kerensky, was actively involved in this. Here is what he himself said on this issue in 1953

    http://nnm.me/blogs/assa82/kerenskiy-intervyu-1953-goda/

    - The interim government proclaimed the autonomy of Finland ...

    - No! We have restored the independence of Finland. It was annexed by Russia during the Napoleonic Wars and entered the empire as an independent state, which entered into an alliance personally with the emperor. During the reign of Nicholas II, many of Finland's rights were abrogated, which naturally caused discontent, even uprisings in Finland. By the way, liberal public opinion in Russia has never accepted a policy of violent Russification. The interim government immediately returned to Finland all rights under one single condition: the independence of Finland must be accepted by the Constituent Assembly. At the same time, we proclaimed the independence of Poland. A regime of granting independence for the Baltic countries, for Ukraine began to be developed ... In the Caucasus and Turkmenistan, we began to invite representatives of the local population to rule the country. Even Lenin, when he returned to Russia, admitted that in mid-1917, Russia was the freest state in the world.


    Recently I read (sorry I lost the link) that the temporary workers and Siberia planned to separate from RI. Well, they could not cope with the management of such a huge country.

    Including, having come to power, the Bolsheviks actually stopped the collapse of the Russian Empire. Another thing is that they were forced (see Kerensky’s interview) to sign BMD conditions. But then they returned to the USSR what was rejected by BM almost in full force.
    1. yankeegohome
      yankeegohome 21 November 2013 18: 15
      -2
      Only recently, according to a zombie man, they said that EBN was going to sell Siberia am for 3 trillion bucks. Nothing changes
  • yankeegohome
    yankeegohome 21 November 2013 17: 29
    +3
    News of the day. The Government of Ukraine refused to prepare for association with the EU
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 17: 48
    -9
    That’s where your Lenin is.
  • DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 21 November 2013 17: 49
    0
    He sat, drank tea, thought, never thought about it, and then it suddenly occurred to me, but who benefits from German hegemony ????? Who benefits from being a relative of the great German emperor? Or maybe Kolenka is a German prostitute. ???? And his German wife? After all, no one canceled the letters of Nikolashka, to my dear Willy !!!!!
    1. Sour
      Sour 21 November 2013 18: 58
      -2
      Quote: DZ_98_B
      Who benefits from being a relative of the great German emperor? Or maybe Kolenka is a German prostitute. ???? And his German wife? After all, no one canceled the letters of Nikolashka, to my dear Willy !!!!!

      It was so.
      But, besides this, Nikolai was a cousin of the English king.
      And you do not know?
      When the question of Russia's participation in the coalition was being decided, Nikolai said: "I cannot refuse such a small request to my cousin" (ie, George 5)
      1. ivshubarin
        ivshubarin 21 November 2013 19: 05
        0
        But the English brother (who was very similar in appearance to Nikolai) refused to accept him after the overthrow
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 17: 51
    -4
    Poor Russia
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 17: 52
    +1
    There were good caricatures.
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 17: 55
    0
    I like it most of all - I like it.
  • Yankuz
    Yankuz 21 November 2013 18: 49
    +3
    Another idiotic dance on the bones! Leave Vladimir Ilyich alone!
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 18: 51
    +1
    Here is a friend of Vovka the bald. Please love and respect. So that all lovers of Lenin had a dream at night.
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 18: 53
    0
    And why should I instead of the mausoleum - ice ax on the head ?!
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 18: 58
    +2
    Amusing postcard. wassat
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 19: 01
    +2
    And this is a very truthful poster.
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 19: 05
    -1
    Something I broke up.
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 19: 08
    -2
    Well, that’s the end.
  • projdoha
    projdoha 21 November 2013 19: 12
    0
    I do not feel any pity for the Romanovs, for 300 years they drove the Russian people into poverty, dirt and lack of culture, the arbitrariness of officials, landowners and priests was no weaker than the 90s. But the 1917 coup (February) threw us from the fire into the fire. Need to draw conclusions, guys. You need to change the situation with a clear cold head, slowly, covering the rear.
    Yes, many want to quickly and more, the result of this desire we observed in the 17th and in the 91st.
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 19: 35
    -3
    I crushed the entire Leninist guard. All those bloody bastards. And I propose a toast: "To the health of the Russian people."
  • Pioneer007
    Pioneer007 21 November 2013 19: 40
    -2
    And I tebe, Koba’s darling helped me a lot in this. Your Lawrence.
    1. Yarosvet
      Yarosvet 21 November 2013 21: 47
      0
      -------------------------------------