The Swiss are preparing for a referendum on the introduction of communism

153
The Swiss are preparing for a referendum on the introduction of communismSwitzerland will hold a referendum on the introduction of the so-called "unconditional" or "guaranteed basic income." The Swiss referendum is of great interest all over the world: if suddenly supporters of a “guaranteed basic income” turn out to be in the majority, Switzerland will become the world's first social state of a fundamentally new type.

The idea of ​​a "guaranteed basic income" is extremely simple: modern developed countries have long been rich enough to ensure a decent standard of living for all their citizens, and each of their residents should receive a certain amount from the government that will guarantee it a comfortable existence.

Swiss social reformers offer to pay a certain amount (for example, 2,500 Swiss francs, that is, about 2,800 dollars) to each adult resident of the country. They are not afraid that free money will deprive people of the incentive to work, - in their opinion, the overwhelming majority of the population will continue to work. Moreover, labor will become more meaningful and productive, since it will be motivated not by the fear of poverty, but by the desire to take a worthy place in society, to benefit, etc. Deprived of cheap labor for the poor, the economy will receive an additional incentive to introduce technological innovations that increase labor productivity - not to mention the beneficial social consequences of the total eradication of poverty.

With all its extravagance and even seeming “insanity”, the idea of ​​replacing a complex system of social benefits and benefits with one and the same government benefit for all has been seriously discussed in the West for more than a dozen years. The global movement for the introduction of guaranteed basic income, created in 1986 in Belgium, has evolved from a marginal group into a rather broad organization uniting economists and social activists from different countries.

The idea attracts not only the “left” advocates of social justice. The benefits of a “guaranteed basic income” are also advocated by radical libertarians, including such free market advocates like Milton Friedman.

“Liberal fundamentalists” believe that, as long as the modern welfare state still collects huge taxes and spends billions on supporting the poor, it’s better to divide this money equally among all citizens: this will at least eliminate the accumulation of bureaucratic structures that helping the poor, they themselves "eat up" a significant proportion of the tax funds allocated for this assistance. In addition, under such a system, citizens will choose for themselves what to spend government money, rather than receive it in the form of subsidies for various purposes determined by government officials.

Swiss law obliges to submit to the popular vote any initiative that brought together more 100,000 supporters. The initiators of the introduction of "guaranteed basic income" overcame this barrier in early October, and on November 24 every Swiss will be able to express his attitude to their idea. The initiators of the reform do not really hope to win: they believe that the idea is still too radical for conservative Swiss, but they expect that the referendum will at least make people seriously think about it, and over time, innovation will make its way into public opinion.

Enno Schmidt, the founder of the Swiss movement for the introduction of guaranteed basic income, explains that the principle of universal state benefits was put to the referendum, and not its amount - the group says “only for example” about 2,700 dollars, the amount of benefit is to be determined later in a separate discussion, and the reform development process at all levels of government will take from two to four years.

As the American magazine The Week notes, the idea of ​​guaranteed basic income was repeatedly advanced in the United States, although in much less radical ways: American economists suggested setting the size of guaranteed income at the “poverty line” level. The growth of interest in this idea is due, in particular, to the fact that in the past decades, the working poor in the USA is growing - wages no longer provide a decent existence in the lower labor force market, although wages of educated and qualified specialists are growing at an unprecedented pace. Many see that in their current form, the American and European "welfare state" does not reach the declared goals, and are looking for new ways to solve social problems.

The date of the referendum on the guaranteed basic income has not yet been announced. On November 24, the Swiss will hold a nationwide vote on another legislative initiative - on the introduction of a limit on the salaries of managers of joint-stock companies. If the initiative passes, top managers will not be able to receive more than 12 salaries of the lowest paid employee of their company.
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  1. -7
    20 November 2013 08: 08
    Let all the countries-they will take them BABY. and then we’ll see where their COMMUNISM will play
    1. +64
      20 November 2013 08: 25
      From those grandmothers who are stored in Swiss banks, ordinary citizens do not fall into anything. Most of the citizens of Western Europe are honest, conscientious hardworkers who have earned their prosperity with their skilled labor. Switzerland is a country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world. Swiss quality has long been the benchmark. Therefore, we need not slander in our black envy, but to build the same fair society. Spiteful critics, honestly admit to yourself - I haven’t discovered America. Yes
      PS By the way, the socialism described in the article has long existed in almost all developed European countries, the Swiss were simply the first to decide to provide it with a clear legislative framework.
      1. +1
        20 November 2013 08: 39
        Quote: zart_arn
        Switzerland is the country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world.


        watches do, knives - what else?
        1. +5
          20 November 2013 09: 01
          Quote: APES

          watches do, knives - what else?

          Nothing more laughing
          1. +7
            20 November 2013 09: 37
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Nothing more


            But what about Swiss cheese - one that is all out of holes? laughing
            1. +1
              20 November 2013 10: 36
              Russian is better. And Swiss cheese is just a hyped brand. The same can be said about watches and knives.
              1. rodevaan
                +7
                20 November 2013 10: 45
                Quote: mivmim
                Russian is better. And Swiss cheese is just a hyped brand. The same can be said about watches and knives.


                - Russian chocolate is also better. And tastier much, and environmentally cleaner.
                1. vanaheym
                  +1
                  21 November 2013 04: 25
                  Quote: rodevaan
                  And tastier much, and environmentally cleaner.

                  Russian chocolate is primarily Mars Russia (Nestle) / Kraft Foods / Ferrero / Orkla which control 80% of the market.
                  1. rodevaan
                    0
                    22 November 2013 08: 13
                    Quote: vanaheym
                    Quote: rodevaan
                    And tastier much, and environmentally cleaner.

                    Russian chocolate is primarily Mars Russia (Nestle) / Kraft Foods / Ferrero / Orkla which control 80% of the market.


                    - Did you eat Soviet? Or didn’t you find him already? I’m hinting at him ...
                    Although the PEPSI generation will probably not understand this ...
              2. +13
                20 November 2013 12: 36
                Quote: mivmim
                Russian is better. And Swiss cheese is just a hyped brand. The same can be said about watches and knives.

                You just didn’t eat real Swiss cheese and I think you don’t have real Swiss watches (I’m not saying that they show the time more accurately than Flight) well, the Lada is the same and it’s in traffic jam with Beha or Merce, but you must admit, the cars then different
                I don’t understand why they put Lenin (picture) in the title, in my opinion Switzerland just destroys all his postulates and teachings, into communism, bypassing socialism !!!!!

                But what about the class struggle and ownership of the means of production? And when will the lights of socialism like Cuba, Korea, and more recently Vinisuela come to something like this - or even remotely resembling Switzerland? But according to Lenin - Switzerland should lag far behind this most advanced three countries
                1. 0
                  20 November 2013 13: 58
                  And what about the Rothschilds on this issue? It is they who control the entire Swiss Confederation.
                2. Gluxar_
                  +6
                  20 November 2013 16: 02
                  Quote: atalef
                  I don’t understand why they put Lenin (the picture) in the title, in my opinion Switzerland just destroys all his postulates and teachings into communism, bypassing socialism !!!!! But what about the class struggle and ownership of the means of production? And when will the lights of socialism like Cuba, Korea, and more recently Vinisuela come to something like this - or even remotely resembling Switzerland? But according to Lenin - Switzerland should lag far behind this most advanced three countries

                  You read Lenin poorly, if at all. Switzerland is just an exception confirming the rule. Switzerland is now at the stage of transition to socialism, not communism yet. And it is worth paying attention to.
                  On the other hand, Switzerland was and remains one of the first capitalist countries, but the internal mentality restrained the expansion of this capitalism abroad, because Switzerland was never drawn into major destructive wars, moreover, such wars only fed the welfare of the Swiss for centuries. This is what allowed her to accumulate a sufficient industrial level for a painless transition to a new stage in the development of society.
                  All the same, countries that, in weak material or technical development, embarked on the path of socialism, were immediately subjected to external aggression by developed and more powerful capitalist blocs, not even countries. And precisely because of this, socialist projects were stifled. Although there was an example of the USSR, which not only could withstand the pressure of the whole world, but also reached such a level of development that it could destroy the whole world on equal terms. And then two systems would begin to be built on the ruins, but with equal opportunities. Then capitalism would not have a chance. However, the situation with the USSR is also unique, for such people as Russians lived there.
                  1. +1
                    20 November 2013 22: 35
                    Switzerland did not fight because the strongest countries of Europe declared it a neutral territory for storing money. But the Swiss mercenaries fought very often.
                3. The comment was deleted.
          2. +10
            20 November 2013 12: 51
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Quote: APES watches do, knives - what else? Nothing more


            Yes, a lot of what else they are doing. Just promoted brands are knives, watches, cheese and chocolate. The military-industrial complex is very developed in Switzerland, in particular, the well-known arms concern ZIG, civilian and hunting weapons are produced at the highest level of military equipment. including small arms companies. The production of machine tools and industrial equipment is very developed.
            Switzerland in terms of quantity and quality of weapons, including heavy (tanks, self-propelled guns, etc.), combat aircraft, is one of the five strongest European armies.
            1. +8
              20 November 2013 14: 58
              And here I paid attention to something-
              Swiss law requires any popular initiative to bring together more than 100,000 supporters to vote.
              That is, it is enough to collect the signatures of 2 percent of the population, and a popular referendum is provided. We have at least 20 percent to collect, a referendum will not be allowed. am
            2. Mature naturalist
              +4
              20 November 2013 19: 07
              Quote: saruman
              Yes, a lot, what else do ... - knives

              I was in Switzerland, I bought a gift: a leather folder and a cot with a dozen tools - Wenger. This is a less promoted company than Victorinox, but also well-known.
              (Wenger is one of two companies producing Swiss Army knives.)
              I saw the houses on the folder: Made in China ...
            3. +2
              20 November 2013 19: 49
              do not believe it anymore the other day I drove into a construction store (Leroy-Murlene) to buy firewood for chopping firewood in a summer house and this very incidentally good-forged firewood turned out to be made in Switzerland !! (not an assembly in China but real Swiss manufacture !! unbelievers) and for the price of a very democratic one thousand rubles. For example, the Russian one was only three hundred cheaper and its Finnish counterpart was already 2 tys ru. I myself was stunned I didn’t think that they just do such a thing, well, why is it asked in Switzerland, but I see you do it and export it!
          3. +4
            20 November 2013 13: 56
            And a very good small weapon.
          4. vanaheym
            0
            21 November 2013 04: 16
            Of the Swiss Swiss companies, only six companies are associated with watch / cheese / chocolate / gourmand production: Nestle, Swatch, Rolex, Barry Callebaut, Lindt, Emmi,
          5. 0
            21 November 2013 13: 19
            Cheese, chocolate, weapons, medical equipment and much more.
        2. Gennady1973
          +16
          20 November 2013 09: 10
          APES. Kind time of the day! It doesn’t matter what they do knives, etc. Or they sit in banks at a percentage. We would have such a tip! When our parents and I are retired! We could at least end of life to go somewhere, relax and what then see ... And in our situation, only in the country, in an interesting pose, so that the pension would be enough to pay for the housing and communal services.
          1. +6
            20 November 2013 09: 49
            We would at least have such a law: "Swiss law obliges to submit to a popular vote any initiative that has gathered more than 100,000 supporters." I think we quickly changed the current constitution.
            They make very expensive watches; they are bought by bankers who keep money. So, this is not a matter of qualification. Creating a convenient banking system is certainly an achievement for them, only banks do not launch rockets and the poor are not fed. Those who keep money in their banks are ultra-rich. Those. they earn money by material stratification of other states.
            1. +5
              20 November 2013 12: 13
              Quote: HollyGremlin
              We would at least have such a law: "Swiss law obliges to submit to a popular vote any initiative that has gathered more than 100,000 supporters." I think we quickly changed the current constitution.

              I fully support. And they are not afraid to listen to the opinion of the people. Not that we have in Ukraine, signatures for referenda are all covered by cloth or are prohibited by the court !!! am
          2. 0
            20 November 2013 09: 54
            Quote: Gennady1973
            APES. Good day


            Good day! hi

            As of 2012, the population of Switzerland is about 8 million people. - almost like in St. Petersburg

            Switzerland is a country that has never been bombed, why?
            1. +4
              20 November 2013 13: 59
              The Rothschilds must be asked.
        3. +18
          20 November 2013 09: 18
          APES, Alexander Romanov, you are looking at Swiss production from the level of, sorry, housewives. This is how the narrow-minded Europeans think about Russia - vodka and nesting dolls (although now, to our great regret and disappointment, they are even closer to the Kistina). You, apparently, are far from the issues of mechanical engineering and instrument making, so I will briefly explain that Switzerland, in addition to "watches" and "knives", also produces various and incredibly complex "machines", "machine tools", "instruments", and other "gizmos", quality which we never dreamed of. One Swiss hydraulics is worth something; those who are aware of the topic understand what I mean. So we have something to strive for and something to learn.
          PS "Watch" of this quality is also an indicator.
          1. +7
            20 November 2013 09: 50
            Quote: zart_arn
            far from questions of mechanical engineering and instrument making


            not at all - I work there, I just wanted to mock

            Quote: zart_arn
            other "gizmos", the quality of which we never dreamed of


            therefore I will add a little - in Russia there are all sorts of "shtukovin" - which are not something that they have not dreamed of, which they cannot even think of.

            All that you have listed - if desired, can be made in Russia, and with quality, and even more I will say - better.

            Quote: zart_arn
            vodka and nesting dolls


            What do you have against our Matryoshka dolls? No.
            1. +7
              20 November 2013 09: 58
              What I am saying is that we must work and live the same way, and maybe even better. I have nothing against vodka and nesting dolls - they firmly hold their place in the market, as well as "watches" and "knives". But you mocked not the Swiss, but the Russians, if "in the subject" - it's not very beautiful, not everyone will understand. Although, it may be correct.
              1. +4
                20 November 2013 12: 26
                Quote: zart_arn
                I’m talking about that, and we must work the same way.


                disagree - dislike - "should do the same", it looks like a statement -
                "Russians don't know how to work"

                Russians just need to be given the opportunity to work normally and create all conditions for creativity and development - the world will change quickly - for the better.

                Quote: zart_arn
                I’m talking about that, and we should live the same way, and maybe better


                The question is, what's stopping you? wink
                1. +5
                  20 November 2013 14: 06
                  Quote: APES
                  The question is, what's stopping you?


                  Our percentage of depreciation is calculated differently. They have it correspondingly higher, which is why the conversion is fast and the quality is appropriate. It all depends on the law. Hence the conclusion - someone (we will not point a finger) is interested in destroying our industry. The legislative branch of power cannot or does not want to fix it, or it can be both. And the executive looks where you can’t blame everything because of a mound or internal heaps. Apparently something is wrong with us. Well, we know how to work much better than them. This is our not very distant past confirmed.
                  1. +3
                    20 November 2013 14: 26
                    Quote: dimyan
                    interested in destroying our industry


                    so Chubais himself admitted this - that "they" did first of all
                  2. +2
                    20 November 2013 14: 57
                    I fully support. We have on the steering wheel in the state perforated on a pierced
            2. +5
              20 November 2013 12: 18
              Quote: APES
              All that you have listed - if desired, can be made in Russia, and with quality, and even more I will say - better.

              I do not doubt that. However, the question is - to whom will the profit go? Now, if such a law was introduced "on the introduction of a limit on the salaries of managers of joint-stock companies. If the initiative passes, top managers will not be able to receive more than 12 salaries of the lowest paid employee of their company." - would be a completely different result for both Russia and Ukraine. "Creative managers" have already stolen from us, and it would be quite "soft", without any blood, to restore social justice.
              1. +5
                20 November 2013 12: 51
                Quote: Egoza
                the question is - who will profit?


                the question is different: it is now "more profitable" to import, rather than create - this must be changed.

                Quote: Egoza
                if such a law "on the introduction of a limit


                I know a sufficient number of people who organized their business from scratch (did not appropriate someone else's, but created it) - from the field of high-tech, high-tech. I think they deserve the money they earn (I emphasize earn) - more, the people who work for them (valuable specialists) - are satisfied with their income, and
                Quote: Egoza
                "creative managers

                they don’t take root there, our state loves them .........
                1. +3
                  20 November 2013 14: 42
                  Quote: APES
                  I know a sufficient number of people who organized their business from scratch (did not appropriate someone else's, but created it) - from the field of high-tech, high-tech. I think they deserve the money they earn (I emphasize earn) - more, the people who work for them (valuable specialists) - are satisfied with their income,

                  Right! And I know those. But the whole point is that the person who created his company from scratch will appreciate the specialists and workers who helped him in the formation of this business. He will not underestimate their salary, and he will not steal from them. Only here (in Ukraine) you can count such on the fingers.
            3. faraon
              +1
              20 November 2013 12: 51
              All that you have listed - if desired, can be made in Russia, and with quality, and even more I will say - better.

              And in China it is cheaper and cheaper, but the question is neither in this, but in the quality of the assembly, the attitude to the manufactured products. culture of production. And it all started with a watch and legs.
              1. +4
                20 November 2013 14: 02
                Quote: faraon
                China is still cheaper

                it's easy to change
                Quote: faraon
                but that's not the point

                the question is that when the USSR began to fully satisfy its needs - a crisis arose in the capitalist world - global
                in response, the "world" gave birth to Hitler, who was pushed against Russia and as a result your Motherland arose.

                Russia is able to fully provide for itself - EVERYTHING is afraid of it and EVERYTHING is done to prevent this.
            4. +1
              20 November 2013 14: 33
              [quote = APES] [quote = zart_arn] are far from issues of mechanical engineering and instrumentation [/ quote]

              not at all - I work there, I just wanted to mock

              [quote = zart_arn] other "gizmos", the quality of which we never dreamed of [/ quote]

              therefore I will add a little - in Russia there are all sorts of "shtukovin" - which are not something that they have not dreamed of, which they cannot even think of.

              All that you have listed - if desired, can be made in Russia, and with quality, and even more I will say - better.

              [quote = zart_arn] vodka and nesting dolls [/ quote]

              Is there no desire? That's constantly - they came up with a better one, but we don’t do it (with the exception of military equipment). Because of laziness, probably wink
              1. sq
                -4
                20 November 2013 16: 09
                Quote: DoctorOleg
                Because of laziness, probably

                hardly, rather because of the typical Slavic trait - envy. Especially among the "tigers", more often the so-called "creative".
                1. Ytfluunu
                  +2
                  20 November 2013 16: 13
                  with what fright is envy a typical Slavic trait?
          2. 0
            20 November 2013 10: 41
            Quote: zart_arn
            PS "Watch" of this quality is also an indicator.

            Well, their quality is ordinary. break as well as everyone else.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Soldier
              +7
              20 November 2013 11: 13
              Quote: mivmim
              Quote: zart_arn
              PS "Watch" of this quality is also an indicator.

              Well, their quality is ordinary. break as well as everyone else.

              Your friend is not true. If it is mechanical Switzerland-Switzerland (and not Switzerland-China, or Quartz-China), then the equipment is reliable. ,, Certificate, I’ve been carrying it for 15 years, and not just breaking, not a single scratch. All polygons and jumps I went with me. And I never took pictures in the water. And the Bati ,, Tavennes ,, - like that in general, is 1893, and they go after all. Of course, I would like for ,, our native, with both hands, but the same ,, commander’s, I didn’t see such quality, at least for about 15 years.
              1. +2
                20 November 2013 11: 45
                [quote = Armeec], but the same ,, commander’s, of similar quality did not see, at least 15 years for sure.

                carried the "amphibian" for many years, in general, did not remove it ... they fell with such force that one of the three bolts of the mechanism fastening lost the cap ... and they go ... minus: glass-plastic, crown - brass (corroded at constant sock) And so the clock is a "bomb", no "Switzerland" is needed
                1. faraon
                  +4
                  20 November 2013 12: 59
                  Yes, I also have "commanders" since 1986, a gift from the command, there are no complaints, but what they look like outwardly, the body is peeled off the glass is dull, the hand is green. And the "Pavel Bure" of my great-grandfather on a chain (not gold-annotation) also goes yes there are scratches but still the same, taking into account the years of presentation. This is the conversation, and not about the fact that we were the first to go into space.
            3. Marek Rozny
              0
              20 November 2013 21: 08
              Quote: mivmim
              Well, their quality is ordinary. break as well as everyone else.

              oh don't tell. I have budget "continental" and "romance". I have been wearing it for over 10 years. never let you down. unlike "Swiss" ones collected under an official license in China and from Russian ones.
              I usually wear a Japanese watch for outdoor activities. also superb quality, but they are with a limited lifespan, sooner or later something breaks there.
            4. -2
              21 November 2013 00: 44
              Moreover, the Swiss were spotted stealing the details of Soviet, Russian watches.
              1. faraon
                +1
                21 November 2013 04: 56
                The theft of spare parts for watches is certainly not good, but for some reason in Russian watches it is not by ear or even brand. And Switzerland is real yes. If everything is so good, Russia does not live like Switzerland.
        4. +1
          20 November 2013 09: 29
          Make money
          1. +5
            20 November 2013 12: 07
            My friends, this guaranteed basic income is provided not only by the fact that they make money, but by robbery in the form of $ 1 child salaries somewhere in Indonesia - it’s more convenient for children to collect two parts with their fingers, and only then the magnificent Swiss will make these two parts no less magnificent Swiss Watches. And they will put the difference in their own Swiss pocket and provide their citizens with a comfortable life in a single state.
        5. +6
          20 November 2013 09: 34
          Quote: APES
          Quote: zart_arn
          Switzerland is the country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world.


          watches do, knives - what else?


          Oerlikon - one of the best anti-aircraft guns. Invented, however, by a German, but was developed in Switzerland
          1. +3
            20 November 2013 10: 03
            Quote: bulvas
            Invented in Switzerland


            Absinthe,

            further LSD

            one of the directions of their pharmacology is fully funded by the government, and by the governments of the countries concerned - drugs.

            Moreover, as scientists, as a rule, it’s not the Swiss who work, but the geniuses gathered around the world.
          2. rodevaan
            +1
            20 November 2013 10: 56
            Quote: bulvas
            Quote: APES
            Quote: zart_arn
            Switzerland is the country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world.


            watches do, knives - what else?


            Oerlikon - one of the best anti-aircraft guns. Invented, however, by a German, but was developed in Switzerland


            - Muzzle on the avatar, - noble! Wrinkled forehead, very smart :)))
        6. +4
          20 November 2013 12: 05
          Very good weapons are made in Switzerland. Metalworking is up there.
        7. +6
          20 November 2013 12: 12
          Machine tools, textile and printing machines, measuring instruments, ICE, electric locomotives, pharmaceutical products.
        8. +5
          20 November 2013 12: 30
          They produce a lot of automation elements: almost the entire line of sensors and flow meters, and other field attributes. They also work very closely in cooperation with leading manufacturers of technological equipment. To date, everything they produce is of excellent quality and reliability.
        9. +7
          20 November 2013 13: 39
          Instruments. Moreover, those that can be inherited, but they look and work as if from a factory. Weapons Electronics And in the mass market you will not find it, such electronics is exclusively for the best. Ultraprecise machines. The best in the world, for the most complex and accurate work. Turbines, electric motors, marine engines .... As an engineer, I really, really respect these magnificent workers, real craftsmen.
        10. Gluxar_
          +7
          20 November 2013 15: 51
          Quote: APES
          watches do, knives - what else?

          Your comment is extremely stupid. The share of industry in Switzerland is more than almost 50% in the United States. Up to a third of GDP is created by industry, this is more than in Germany.
          Switzerland is one of the "little giants" of the modern world, the majority of which is based on stereotypes. Switzerland is one of the most developed industrial countries in the entire planet.
          1. -1
            20 November 2013 22: 26
            Quote: Gluxar_
            Your comment is extremely stupid.


            You said yourself tongue

            Quote: Gluxar_
            The share of industry in Switzerland is more than in the USA by almost 50%. Up to a third of GDP is created by industry, this is more than in Germany


            but that wasn’t about that ....
        11. paul33
          +3
          20 November 2013 15: 59
          the most accurate metal cutting equipment for example
        12. goldfinger
          +1
          20 November 2013 20: 57
          watches do, knives - what else? Quote APES.


          From Minsk. Well, you can’t be so curious. From Wiki - Industry is dominated by large associations of a transnational nature, as a rule, successfully withstanding competition in the world market and occupying leading positions in it: Nestle Concerns (food products, pharmaceutical and cosmetic products, baby food), Novartis and Hoffman -la-Roche "(chemical and pharmaceutical products)," Alyusyuiss "(aluminum), the Swedish-Swiss concern ABB -" Asea Brown Boveri "(electrical and turbine engineering). Switzerland is often associated with the world's watch factory. Based on old traditions and high technical culture, watches and jewelry of the most prestigious brands are produced here: Rolex, Chopard, Breguet, Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin, etc.
          On my own I note that back in the 80s I read a note in Izvestia that the Swiss in the USSR bought for good money the beds of decommissioned Soviet metalworking machines, the metal in which had already "settled down, aged" and used to install a new processing machine on them. fillings. To "catch hundreds of mk". Stanzas were valued like wine, the older, the more expensive (the most, the most - "royal").
          Chistopl Mechanical Plant, equipment and technologies - to the last screw, after overhaul in the 60s, Swiss. Remember the "command" watch! And the watch "Amphibia" is my youthful dream!
          Yes, not only cheese and skiers! The country is the standard.
          1. -1
            20 November 2013 23: 04
            Quote: goldfinger
            From wiki

            what is it? belay
            Quote: goldfinger
            transnational character

            nothing to say?
            1. goldfinger
              -1
              20 November 2013 23: 45
              Wikipedia In Russia, tuyeva hucha branches of multinational companies - Coca-Cola, Philips, British Petroleum, etc. etc. What this should say, honestly, I do not know.
              nothing to say?Quote APES.
      2. +3
        20 November 2013 10: 30
        You really do not know where most of the Swiss budget revenues come from, or you include a "fool" about:

        Switzerland is a country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world. Swiss quality has long been the benchmark. Therefore, we need not slander in our black envy, but to build the same fair society.

        Even reading is disgusting.
        You read the History of the Development of the Banking Sector in Switzerland at least briefly about the conditions and tasks of creating such a structure, who benefits and why such a "black financial hole" suddenly appeared in the center of Europe, who used these services and on what conditions. I'm not saying that this story is bad or good, this is already the history of the creation and development of banks in a single country, only about "the most qualified workforce in the world" and "building a just society" do not fool us.
      3. Sosland
        +1
        20 November 2013 12: 51
        Unfortunately, this is impossible with us, although 40-50 years ago we were closest to this. You have to be an observer of the decline in education, moral and ethical norms of society, and the culture of communication. We are not ready for this, most of us have no responsibility to our loved ones, neighbors and quite often to ourselves, and this, in my opinion, is the basis, otherwise it will be perceived as a "freebie".
    2. +3
      20 November 2013 08: 41
      Quote: Nitarius
      Let all the countries take away from them.


      Only yesterday on this subject communicated. discussed for a long time. they don’t want, as they did not persuade.
    3. +7
      20 November 2013 11: 16
      Well, here are the banks again, and it turns out that this is a more philanthropic state, where those in power do not mind sharing with all citizens. Against their background, we have completely sucks power, even when you work, you manage not to really pay. There is reason to think. Just completely sweeps away the tale of some of our special spirituality. Our special path is the path to feudalism.
      1. goldfinger
        +1
        20 November 2013 23: 53
        Quote: varov14
        Just completely sweeps away the tale of some of our special spirituality. Our special path is the path to feudalism.

        Neighbor Belarus.
        And here is a sketch of our classic Alexander Kuprin, 1908.

        “I remember five years ago I had to come to Imatra with writers Bunin and Fedorov. We returned back late at night. About eleven o'clock the train stopped at Antrea station, and we went out for a bite. The long table was lined with hot dishes and cold snacks. There was fresh salmon, fried trout, cold roast beef, some game, small, very tasty meatballs and the like. All this was unusually clean, appetizing and elegant. And then small plates towered over the edges of the table, piles of knives and forks, and baskets of bread stood.

        Each came up, chose what he liked, had a bite as much as he wanted, then went up to the sideboard and, of his own free will, paid exactly one stamp (thirty-seven kopecks) for dinner. No oversight, no mistrust. Our Russian hearts, so deeply accustomed to the passport, the precinct, the compulsory custody of the senior janitor, to the general fraud and suspicion, were completely suppressed by this broad mutual faith. But when we returned to the carriage, a lovely picture in a truly Russian genre was waiting for us. The fact is that two stone work contractors were traveling with us. Everyone knows this type of fist from the Meshchovsky district of Kaluga province: a wide, glossy, cheeky, red muzzle, red hair curling from under a cap, a rare beard, a roguish look, piety for five-piece, ardent patriotism and contempt for everything non-Russian - in a word, familiar truly Russian face. We had to listen to how they mocked the poor Finns.

        - Here's a fool so foolish. After all, such idiots, the devil knows them! Why, if I calculate, I ate three rubles for seven hryvnias from them, from scoundrels ... Oh, you bastard! Few of them are beaten, sons of bitches! One word - Chukhons.
        And the other picked up, choking with laughter:
        - And I ... purposely cocked a glass, and then took it into the fish and spat.
        - So them it is necessary, bastards! Dissolved anathema! They need to be kept in! ”

        This episode is all. And vile, like a bad disease, Russian imperialism, now inspired by Gazprom and football. And bestial hatred for elementary everyday culture, for the arrangement of the “Chukhons” and for themselves. And the bossy disrespect for property, literally disregard for it. That is, we see normal Bolshevism. And at the same time, it should be noted that we are not lumpen, not “breaks”, not tramplers - in front of us are Fists. I want to say that Bolshevism in Russia is not just the doctrine of the political sect of Lenin, not a wild creature grafted onto the Russian trunk. This phenomenon is neither social nor class, it is a phenomenon of the whole of Russian life, its fruit. Bolshevism in Russia is a psychotype, and God forbid that it is not a genotype. This is a national trait, that’s scary to say.
        1. +1
          21 November 2013 00: 02
          Quote: goldfinger
          This episode is all. And vile, like a bad disease, Russian imperialism, now inspired by Gazprom and football. And bestial hatred for elementary everyday culture, for the arrangement of the “Chukhons” and for themselves. And the bossy disrespect for property, literally disregard for it.

          This episode remains on the conscience of the author, or rather, dishonesty. The author invented everything, apparently he was still a Russophobe.
          Quote: goldfinger
          This phenomenon is neither social nor class, it is a phenomenon of the whole of Russian life, its fruit.

          This phenomenon is the fruit of a sick imagination.
    4. +4
      20 November 2013 14: 55
      Quote: Nitarius
      Let all the countries-they will take them BABY. and then we’ll see where their COMMUNISM will play

      An open letter to President Putin from the Russian professor Lev Zaitsev.

      Mr. President!

      We draw your attention to the fact that Russia stands at the dangerous line of reducing real incomes of the population. More than 90% of Russians are essentially low-income.
      And what is surprising, the income of oligarchs, top managers, government officials, and deputies are growing every year amid poverty.
      Constantly from high tribunes and through the media we hear how they increase salaries, pensions, and allowance for officers, despite the crisis. But it is important not only to increase them, but to keep the purchasing power from social inflation. However, they prefer not to talk about it.

      Yes, damn it, even if the siblings succeed. Will anyone to be.
    5. AVV
      +1
      20 November 2013 15: 08
      The number of migrants is going wild now, and after the adoption of this law, there will be a pandemic of Muslims from all over the world in Switzerland !!!
    6. Gluxar_
      +1
      20 November 2013 15: 46
      Quote: Nitarius
      Let all the countries-they will take them BABY. and then we’ll see where their COMMUNISM will play

      Why so rude? Not only banking brings Swiss revenue. The initiative itself is good. Let them conduct an experiment, at least at home. In no other major country such an initiative will not work. It all depends on the level of vice of the population. If there are associative people living according to their perverted values, such as drug addicts or any people who are addicted to addictions, then this initiative will not work. Let them try in Switzerland.
      By the way this is not the first example, a similar system is in the SA and was in Libya. Suppose there were no monthly benefits, but there were large one-time or zero loans from the state.
      On the other hand, the same was introduced in Norway, but as an investment in a public good. And in Russia so far, in the form of a part of free public services or "monetization", although the volumes are certainly not comparable.
      And again, you should not look only at the figures, $ 2500 in a country like Switzerland, this is not very big money. Enough for going to the doctor and paying utility bills for one.
  2. +1
    20 November 2013 08: 12
    oh how ... unexpectedly ...
    1. -1
      20 November 2013 08: 41
      Quote: marder4
      oh how ... unexpectedly


      just raging with fat ...
  3. -6
    20 November 2013 08: 17
    c ** AND LIVING AT THE ACCOUNT OF OTHERS AND FAT. And RUSSIA SHOULD FALSE IDEALS, WHICH WE SUCCESSFULLY HAVE AND CONTINUE TO FEED THE WHOLE WEST. TAKE THE SAME SAB FUND. WHERE MORE Prudently HERE TO INVEST IN ITS OWN STATE - IN INFRASTRUCTURE, SCIENCE ITD.
    1. faraon
      +6
      20 November 2013 13: 10
      And what prevents Russia from living and fattening in the same way, but for some reason the Russian elite (powerful people, officials) trying to keep money (money) in Switzerland is somehow more reliable. What prevents it from creating a banking system in Russia that allows citizens to live on dividends from contributions, revise social policy in relation to the country's population.

      here is the exact definition - well, I'm talking about roads and ..... (Karamzin)
      1. -3
        20 November 2013 16: 10
        Such as YOU and prevent our country from developing.
        1. faraon
          0
          21 November 2013 05: 36
          Why am I apologizing for the small, poor natural resources that hinder the mighty Russia? If one commodity turnover is $ 4 billion a year. Apart from joint projects in the military-industrial complex, agricultural sector, medicine, the participation of high-tech production.
  4. qwertynsan
    +1
    20 November 2013 08: 18
    There is no Lenin on them ...))
    1. +3
      20 November 2013 11: 06
      Quote: qwertynsan
      There is no Lenin on them ...))


      They already had Lenin wink
      1. 0
        20 November 2013 15: 01
        Lenin they already had a wink

        And there was a bastard cat, often. lol
    2. 0
      20 November 2013 19: 55
      Quote: qwertynsan
      There is no Lenin on them ...))


      they didn’t have Khrushchev. He would have shown them corn and Kuzkin’s mother. laughing
  5. makarov
    +6
    20 November 2013 08: 22
    Without revolutions, without blood, without blasphemy ... they simply took and built a prototype of communism.
    1. +2
      20 November 2013 09: 01
      Quote: makarov
      Without revolutions, without blood, without blasphemy ... they simply took and built a prototype of communism.


      Are you sure about this?
      1. makarov
        0
        20 November 2013 09: 31
        "Are you sure of that?"

        Everything is relative.
    2. +2
      20 November 2013 10: 27
      In Austria, even on the arms of the country, the sickle and hammer - the Swiss are not alone. Simply, if we take the country's total income, divide it by the number of inhabitants, and squeeze out unnecessary budget expenditures, you can scrape together a lot of thread. Saudis, Monaco, Norway pay their citizens in monetarist form. So the question is purely technical.
      1. makarov
        0
        20 November 2013 13: 16
        ".. Austria, even on the coat of arms of the country hammer and sickle - the Swiss are not alone ..."

        What is Austria there ?!
        Vysotsky pohlesche put it: - Hammer to me, so I will cross over any of my ...
    3. Encoder
      -2
      20 November 2013 13: 18
      And with whose money most revolutions and wars are made? So, not without blood, without your blood - yes. And such communism in any gang exists that lives the plunder of others.
    4. +3
      20 November 2013 18: 50
      Quote: makarov
      Without revolutions, without blood, without blasphemy ... they simply took and built a prototype of communism.

      1 So far, they have not built anything, but are only gathering.
      2 The prototype, in the form of a state system of social benefits, was built in the USSR, despite almost continuous external aggression and huge defense costs.
      3 Communism is not a bunch of junk and Bolshevik dough, it is an economic system in which free people live not at the expense of handouts of the rich, but at the expense of voluntary and conscious work for the benefit of society.
      1. makarov
        +1
        20 November 2013 20: 18
        "..this is an economic system in which free people live not at the expense of handouts from the rich, but at the expense of voluntary and conscious labor for the good of society ..."

        SW Nikolay. You directly accurately described the life of ordinary Swiss.
  6. +13
    20 November 2013 08: 24
    Why are you blown away? And who prevents us from making money like this? Envy, understand. Or maybe Lenin was right, then the last 20 years - like urine in the sand.
    1. +2
      20 November 2013 10: 31
      As far back as the 60s, the West began to actively search for ways to stabilize - the theory of convergence - the fusion of capitalism and communism! And our bezgamotnye thieves believed that stealing in the Soviet Union will live hard in the West! Even ilf in a golden calf showed that they needed money there, and not those who stole it! The final scene when Ostap was robbed.
      THERE IS ONLY RUSSIA, WHERE WE LIVE, AND WESTERN WITCHING US! and OUR SO-CALLED BUSINESSMEN AND GOVERNORS DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!
      As in the song - the battle continues again, and young October is ahead! Whether you want it or not, but life does not like stagnation ...
      1. Encoder
        0
        20 November 2013 13: 22
        Ours understand that, but we do not have ours.
      2. +5
        20 November 2013 14: 08
        Quote: vezunchik
        BUSINESSMEN AND GOVERNORS DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!

        Why not? Putin understands this very well. And his associates too. No place in the world will they be able to steal so much and not be responsible for it. This is why our Power "loves" Russia, which is why they are all "statesmen".
    2. Encoder
      -2
      20 November 2013 13: 20
      So they interfere. Our hosts are there.
  7. +2
    20 November 2013 08: 24
    so how many Nazi grandmothers remained in the Swiss banks? I read it somehow. there is a lot of all good. and all the state secrets
    1. faraon
      0
      21 November 2013 05: 41
      Well, how many Russian dough settled there after two revolutions of 1917 and 1991, as well as the corrupt policy of the Russian government (hornbeam on a robbery), no one tried to calculate?
  8. -6
    20 November 2013 08: 26
    Bravo! Turning people into chewing biomass will go at a fantastic pace! Education sideways! Work for blacks!
    But I do not envy such a life. The cow in the stall is just as happy.
  9. vladsolo56
    +1
    20 November 2013 08: 27
    Firstly, there is no smell of communism here, secondly, such a proposal will cause dependency, why work if money is already given. Any money regardless of how it is distributed gives rise to the egoism of their consumption. Communism completely abandons money and their equivalents. In my opinion, this initiative can only do harm.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 08: 56
      Quote: vladsolo56
      Firstly, there is no smell of communism here, secondly, such a proposal will cause dependency, why work if money is already given.

      this is our mentality. how do you know what they think the same way? in any case, time will tell.
      1. vladsolo56
        +5
        20 November 2013 09: 06
        Quote: rpek32
        Quote: vladsolo56
        Firstly, there is no smell of communism here, secondly, such a proposal will cause dependency, why work if money is already given.

        this is our mentality. how do you know what they think the same way? in any case, time will tell.

        mentality, this is just a trick of psychologists, people are the same everywhere, and only living conditions give different peoples different habits
    2. +4
      20 November 2013 12: 32
      Quote: vladsolo56
      secondly, such a proposal will cause dependency, why work if money is already given.

      But this already depends on upbringing, and on public opinion. If the idea is introduced in society that it is a shame not to work, then they will work. The idea "if you want to have such justice for many years, you need to work so that this justice is not covered with a copper basin." Likewise, the force of habit will work. Ask those who have worked in production for more than 10-15 years. (I mean retirees) Pulls them to their home workshop, factory, etc.
      By the way, why did Khrushchev declare "in 20 years we will live under communism"? because he was shown the calculations of the growth rates of production during the Stalin years. What enthusiasm the people had! Only now, having doused I.V. Stalin with mud, Khrushchev completely knocked down this enthusiasm and BELIEVE in the party. "The whole thing" cannot work without an idea, purpose and faith. Although I.V. Stalin did not call for "running into communism", but believed that the people should live well under socialism (and during this time it would be possible to educate subsequent generations in the right direction).
      1. +4
        20 November 2013 12: 44
        secondly, such a proposal will cause dependency, why work if money is already given.
        But this depends on education, and on public opinion. If the idea that not working is embarrassing is embarrassing in society, then they will work.

        Yes, I was like in Luxembourg, by the way, it’s not in the EU either, and their tolerant laws in relation to Gaster are different, so it was interesting to watch the janitors, road workers, the hotel clerk - all of them are so white, they are Luxembourgers, and they’re not ashamed to work - Janitor is a citizen of Luxembourg good
      2. vladsolo56
        0
        20 November 2013 15: 34
        The basis of any parenting is an example. If Khrushchev immediately after the war organized state communes, without a salary, but on state support of all participants in the commune, in equal shares, normal for living. And with such examples, it was possible to build communism, and I’m sure that with smart leadership it would be enough for 20 years that communism would become the basis of the social system in the USSR.
  10. +4
    20 November 2013 08: 32
    And we will have a pension - 100 points! Envy the Swiss!
    1. +4
      20 November 2013 11: 14
      Quote: treskoed
      And we will have a pension - 100 points! Envy the Swiss!


      Yesterday they said that if you work until death, you will have all 146 points .. laughing
  11. +8
    20 November 2013 08: 37
    Switzerland as an alternative reserve base is quite suitable. Apparently, the country did a great job even without oil, gas and nuclear weapons. Maybe because the authorities are concerned not so much with the grabbing of dough as with real work? Well, we envy silently ...
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 08: 46
      Quote: erased
      Switzerland as an alternative springboard option


      in vain I probably refused their citizenship. although Micheline hinted that they would be happy if I changed my mind.
    2. Encoder
      -1
      20 November 2013 13: 29
      wassat The country that lives on the dough and at the expense of the dough. A bridgehead ... - will they accept you into this gang?
      1. +2
        20 November 2013 13: 39
        Quote: Coder
        wassat The country that lives on the dough and at the expense of the dough. A bridgehead ... - will they accept you into this gang?

        Maybe all the same google about Swiss industry, although why, because it's easier to live laughing
        1. 0
          20 November 2013 22: 41
          Quote: atalef
          Maybe all the same google about Swiss industry, although why, because it's easier to live

          An industry that has developed through the banking sector, but not vice versa.
    3. 0
      20 November 2013 19: 58
      Quote: erased
      Switzerland as an alternative reserve base is quite suitable. Apparently, the country did a great job even without oil, gas and


      Well, I don’t know about oil, but from the point of oil and gasoline, the Azerbaijani oil company Sokar is gaining ground there. We started by buying gas stations under the Sokar brand and pushing Azerbaijani gas to them. By the way, the Swiss are happy.
  12. +3
    20 November 2013 08: 41
    How people like to count other people's money. Especially comment capsule. phew.
  13. +1
    20 November 2013 08: 41
    Let's imagine what will begin if every citizen of Russia begins to receive $ 1500 monthly, no matter what! wink
    1. +7
      20 November 2013 09: 04
      Once upon a time, back in the USSR, at one enterprise in a closed city, sociologists decided to conduct such an experiment - they brought all kinds of things to the factory shops and canteens, including delicacies, including caviar and people were told that from now on everyone can take whatever they want from there and how much he wants. At first, of course, everyone rushed to the shelves and dragged home everything that came to hand. Soon the shelves were empty. The organizers again delivered the same thing, only in large quantities. And again the situation repeated itself, only this time something was left. Because everything is already crowded at home, but you won’t leave the city, because it’s ZATO (closed administrative-territorial unit) and you won’t sell it, you won’t send relatives. In short, after a new replenishment of the assortment, there was already no excitement and crush. Everyone took only what was needed and how much was needed. In my opinion, a very interesting experiment.
      1. +2
        20 November 2013 10: 42
        I'm from the same closed. I heard about the experiment, but I don’t know where it was (if) conducted. But in my native Krasnoyarsk-26-now Zheleznogorsk, .. the mentality of people was slightly different from the all-Russian level. The bakery saleswoman from the cafeteria went for lunch and left the goods under gauze in the street with a saucer for money. It is necessary - took a roll, but put a denyuzhku. Etc. Everything was always in stores at ridiculous prices, when there was NOTHING in the Union. . We are just used to our exclusivity. So it all depends on the level of intelligence.
      2. 0
        20 November 2013 13: 41
        Quote: demotivator
        Once upon a time, back in the USSR, at one enterprise in a closed city, sociologists decided to conduct such an experiment - they brought all kinds of things to the factory shops and canteens, including delicacies, including caviar and people were told that from now on everyone can take whatever they want from there and how much he wants. At first, of course, everyone rushed to the shelves and dragged home everything that came to hand. Soon the shelves were empty. The organizers again delivered the same thing, only in large quantities. And again the situation repeated itself, only this time something was left. Because everything is already crowded at home, but you won’t leave the city, because it’s ZATO (closed administrative-territorial unit) and you won’t sell it, you won’t send relatives. In short, after a new replenishment of the assortment, there was already no excitement and crush. Everyone took only what was needed and how much was needed. In my opinion, a very interesting experiment.

        There was no such experiment, without fairy tales, neither that country, nor that time
    2. +1
      20 November 2013 09: 52
      Quote: Nickanor
      Let's imagine what will begin if every citizen of Russia begins to receive $ 1500 monthly, no matter what! wink

      Yes, at least $ 500, not in cash, but at birth into the account, and even annually, not monthly. And upon reaching adulthood, use either for housing or for education. In such conditions, I simply guarantee a population explosion.
      1. +2
        20 November 2013 13: 45
        Quote: Max Otto
        Quote: Nickanor
        Let's imagine what will begin if every citizen of Russia begins to receive $ 1500 monthly, no matter what! wink

        Yes, at least $ 500, not in cash, but at birth into the account, and even annually, not monthly. And upon reaching adulthood, use either for housing or for education. In such conditions, I simply guarantee a population explosion.

        We have learned to cash in maternal capital, and cash this. and not controlled money supply will lead to inflation and the loss will be more than you win. First, laws need to be brought in order and fraudsters planted, and then grandmother people begin to distribute
      2. +1
        20 November 2013 14: 24
        Quote: Max Otto
        In such conditions, I simply guarantee a population explosion.


        Not a fact.
        There is an offer much cheaper.
        In large cities, we turn off the electricity fan from 21 p.m. to 00 a.m., excluding only life support facilities. In every city for at least three nights. After 6 months, we look at the result.
        It will not be an explosion, it will be a tsunami.
  14. 0
    20 November 2013 08: 46
    The next generation of Swiss people will live under communism.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 14: 28
      Quote: pv1005
      The next generation of Swiss people will live under communism.

      Present a generation of Swiss people will live under communism.
      If only there was no war.
  15. +6
    20 November 2013 08: 56
    Some people have a rather primitive understanding of communism, such as the fact that this is a system of complete freebies - when everyone has a lot of chewing gum, jeans, and other imported clothes. Yes, and no one needs to do anything - everything goes into the mouth itself. While true communism is still, first of all, the all-round development of the human personality, especially the creative abilities of people. And much more that does not fit into the proposed simple scheme. Because communism is practically unattainable - people are not the same, have not grown to it.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 23: 06
      I was taught that the main NEED of a person under communism is the need to WORK.
  16. +1
    20 November 2013 09: 03
    You can’t forbid to live beautifully. The migrant’s golden dream will break into Switzerland.
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 10: 50
      What about obtaining citizenship? I think the authorities will regulate this issue in the first place. In a socialist and wealthy Austria, my classmate lives - married to an Austrian. She is not a citizen of the country. The length of stay did not go It is easier to obtain citizenship from the Britons than in Switzerland.
  17. +4
    20 November 2013 09: 06
    The people, we are just jealous. No matter what amount will be paid. IMPORTANT IDEA. The USSR wanted the same. We didn’t succeed, maybe they can.
    1. Encoder
      -1
      20 November 2013 13: 37
      They will be able to exactly as long as we (read - all who are not them) will work for them.
  18. +2
    20 November 2013 09: 38
    Well done, great idea.
    And maybe really economically feasible. Dear Nickanor wrote about 1500 bucks. This is a lot, but 15 thousand and rubles, this is normal.
    In Russia, 143 million people. -000% of minors will remain roughly 000 million * 30 = 100 (15 trillion per month) * 000 = 1 trillion per year.
    retirees in Russia are approximately 30 million * 10500 (average pension) * 12 = 3,78 trillion per year.
    18 tr -4 tr (pensions) - salary in pension funds - all sorts of social security - and other es - maintenance and maintenance of buildings where all this canoe is located = I think it will work out
    And I took only one industry. And how many all sorts of others where they decide to whom how much when why and why give out. While they decide to eat and sp..t (sorry to steal) more than they decide to give out.
  19. +2
    20 November 2013 09: 45
    Quote: svskor80
    You can’t forbid to live beautifully. The migrant’s golden dream will break into Switzerland.

    Schweiz has a very strict immigration policy.
  20. 0
    20 November 2013 09: 53
    On the account they steal, it seems that if all the Emirates didn’t do this, they would just rest.
  21. +1
    20 November 2013 10: 02
    The peoples' dream of a just society has always been.
    BUT! What role do Swiss dreamers attribute to the invasion of Gaster from Africa and Asia and, in the future, Latin America in their lives and economies?
    1. Encoder
      +1
      20 November 2013 13: 39
      They won’t even get close to them, well, they have nothing to do there, well, there is no industry in Switzerland (on its territory) in our understanding.
  22. +7
    20 November 2013 10: 17
    We built socialism in the USSR, and came to wild capitalism. In Switzerland, they built capitalism, and came to socialism. Honestly, I envy them kindly. hi
    1. Encoder
      0
      20 November 2013 13: 40
      Good you are very - and use it.
  23. +1
    20 November 2013 10: 20
    Someone just had enough for a meal and for housing and communal services, and the furniture can be picked up when the neighbors change the situation. And the majority wants to live comfortably and will work for this. Another thing is that the "non-prestigious" places will again need "Gaster".
  24. +2
    20 November 2013 10: 24
    Western countries have political movements, who preach the equality of all inhabitants, in the sense of obtaining wealth. These ideas were preached by the Bolsheviks at the beginning of the 20 century. So these ideas are not new. What is upsetting is that in Russia there is no political force that would fight to even out the income level of our citizens. The difference between rich and poor in Russia is an abyss.
    1. Encoder
      +1
      20 November 2013 13: 43
      There are such forces. Little for now, but there is. And the difference between rich and poor is much greater (you will be surprised) in America and according to their own estimates.
  25. dmb
    +1
    20 November 2013 10: 28
    In this, in my opinion, a completely insane idea, which has nothing to do with communism (see Lenin's definition of a communist), there is also a healthy grain. This is me about that horde of civil servants who distribute benefits and subsidies. The costs of obtaining and receiving such benefits are many times higher than its size. Of course, I am not an economist, but who will explain to me the need to maintain a heap of financiers who first take tax from me, and then through complex manipulations with pieces of paper, paying them salaries and bonuses for shock work, they partially return it to me. As Zadornov says, I do not understand why in the USSR one social security is enough to pay pensions, but now the social security has been doubled, and the Pension Fund has been created, and they have built such buildings that any school will envy, but with pensions there is again a problem. I think something needs to be corrected in the "conservatory", at least following the Swiss example.
  26. +4
    20 November 2013 10: 38
    There is one very interesting law of social development:
    The level of public consciousness depends on the level of material culture of society, i.e.-
    the higher the level of material culture of society, the higher the consciousness of members of society.
    When we, the students of the military academy, in the mid-80s asked a teacher: Do you not dispute that the level of material culture of the United States is higher than the level of material culture of the USSR?, The answer was the following: you, comrade officers, are right and the second question may not be set.
    In some countries of Arabia, a citizen at birth is opened an account for a sickly amount, but they also have Gaster, ksati even from the USA.
    It's a shame, of course, that we were the first to start building communism (or proclaimed it), but were not there.
    Until the evening, dear forum users, I went to build a house in the country.
  27. +3
    20 November 2013 10: 44
    For more than 200 years, there have been no wars and devastation in Switzerland. Money was invested in development, not in rebuilding the country.
    1. +6
      20 November 2013 11: 26
      Quote: AIR-ZNAK
      There have been no wars and devastation in Switzerland for more than 200 years


      That's for sure .. And they didn’t have the Olympics ..

      For the fourth time, the Swiss denied the government the opportunity to apply for the right to host the Olympic Games. This alpine country has already tried to declare its candidacy for the Winter Games 2002 (which eventually took place in Salt Lake City), 2006 (Turin) and 2010 (Vancouver). However, Switzerland has a law under which the government is required to ask taxpayers for significant spending of budget money. At the end of last week, a referendum was held in the country on a number of important issues. For example, about salary restrictions for top managers of large companies.
      1. Encoder
        +1
        20 November 2013 13: 47
        And who are the main taxpayers there? Well, they are the true masters of the country. By the way, and to whom will the money not paid to top managers go again to them, well, and who is the initiator of the referendum?
        And the fact that the Olympics are not needed in their current form is for me.
  28. rodevaan
    0
    20 November 2013 10: 52
    Quote: zart_arn
    What I am saying is that we must work and live the same way, and maybe even better. I have nothing against vodka and nesting dolls - they firmly hold their place in the market, as well as "watches" and "knives". But you mocked not the Swiss, but the Russians, if "in the subject" - it's not very beautiful, not everyone will understand. Although, it may be correct.


    - Dear, you are comparing absolutely incomparable. Russia and some kind of Andorra-Switzerland there are absolutely and fundamentally 2 different incomparable values ​​and the tasks of these fundamentally different states are fundamentally different. This small fry has been living in neutrality for about twenty years, and is developing in its cramped inner world, raising a social network and not claiming anything else. Country bank. And during this time, Russia survived a bunch of wars and invasions from all kinds of under-civilizers, and several times recovered from the chaos and ruins of all kinds of world cataclysms. In addition, Russia, which occupies 1/6 of the land, will face even greater challenges in the future when there is a race for resources and water and other good. While small fry like Switzerland and other San Marines, no one will need a fuck.

    You compare, I'm sorry) / (with a finger. Russia will never be Switzerland, and Switzerland will never be Russia, since the goals and objectives of these fundamentally incomparable countries are strikingly and diametrically opposed. Think over and add for yourself why. There are still a lot of reasons — there are just a few places it’s not enough to write it all.
  29. haralaan
    +6
    20 November 2013 10: 59
    A smart decision by the Swiss.
    In Russia, the salaries of deputies to the State Duma of the Russian Federation are doubled, and that of doctors by 6%. Interesting approach
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 20: 00
      Quote: haralaan
      In Russia, the salaries of deputies to the State Duma of the Russian Federation are doubled, and that of doctors by 6%. Interesting approach


      But did you think that the deputies would vote against them not to raise their salaries by 100%?
      there are no such deputies. (in the former USSR, this is definitely)
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. +1
    20 November 2013 11: 11
    A similar "communism" already exists in the Arab Emirates. In terms of education, the emirates are leaders all over the world, because every inhabitant of them has a higher education received in Europe or elsewhere. However, in terms of the level of thinking, they remained feudal lords - they use the disenfranchised, slave labor of thousands of migrants from Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, India, etc. for the construction of luxurious buildings and other indicators of their wealth and prosperity.
    1. Encoder
      0
      20 November 2013 13: 54
      And again, one to one, the same thing - a small closed society that exists at the expense of others.
  32. negeroi
    +5
    20 November 2013 11: 16
    Ha! This is not a model of communism, or even socialism. It is a model of the Roman Empire, or the Golden Billion. With all the development of Switzerland, all the benefits and social protection are supposed only for citizens. And this is a significant nuance. Such a nuance, which makes it not so dubious but certainly not communist or socialist, this example. Namely, Switzerland has the most severe migration laws. There live and work entire generations of 40 years or more, who do not shine citizenship under any circumstances. Despite the fact that many were born Switzerland and even gave birth to a new generation. Not just born in Switzerland, but simply non-citizens who do not have the prospect of becoming just citizens. And since there are half of such people in Switzerland, Swiss socialism is not available to those who provide this economic level with their labor. Swiss socialism is a form of colonial slavery. Where the main wealth of the colonies is not goods, but slaves who have no prospects of becoming citizens of the state they’re living all their lives, neither to their children, nor to their grandchildren. And they can’t leave, the old people don’t need to go home, and those born in Switzerland can’t go anywhere because people are stateless. Yes, and why go from a well-fed Switzerland? there are special slave people so that citizens can enjoy social benefits. Muscovites know the truth? Slaves are convenient. Golden billion in miniature. There are gentlemen, equal and wealthy, and there are those who cook, wash, clean, work at machine tools that They will NEVER get (such a law) and nothing of what is considered the norm and a necessity for full-fledged people. I am a citizen of Rome, any Swiss can safely say. There are more than one Switzerland in the world of slaves in the United States without social benefits, officially more than 7 million slaves but in reality, who considers them. But this is life, not a fairy tale about communism. And I don’t understand the uprisings on this topic. Well, guys can, they have money to spread rot, and feel good about it. But why call all this communism?
    1. Encoder
      +1
      20 November 2013 13: 56
      Totally agree!
    2. 0
      20 November 2013 20: 23
      Quote: negeroi
      .A since such non-citizens in Switzerland half of the population, etc.

      Where does this infa come from?

      Switzerland. Country Information

      Overview

      The population is 7,9 million people, including 1,9 million foreigners (24%).

      http://www.ved.gov.ru/exportcountries/ch/about_ch/review_ch/
    3. Neil
      0
      20 November 2013 20: 28
      !!!!! absolutely agree!!!
  33. +1
    20 November 2013 11: 31
    Quote: APES
    watches do, knives - what else?

    Another chocolate, very good. Although, chocolate produced in the USSR was very good compared to the currently produced. However, in childhood, the grass was greener and the sky bluer.
  34. negeroi
    +2
    20 November 2013 12: 05
    But objectively, it was better. The modern affordable, I emphasize, affordable chocolate is made using modern technologies. Namely, it is made of food substitutes. In the USSR, chocolate was generally made from natural products, as well as ice cream and much more. Therefore, they were tastier. Our factories produce products using Western technologies, which include plastic pasta for slaves, and natural for wealthy ones. You can buy normal chocolate now, but at prices ... in short, you won’t like prices. And affordable chocolate, using new technologies, isn’t it would be tasty .. But you know, there are a lot of us, and there isn’t enough for everyone, that’s natural, only for the rich and middle peasants. And the grass on the lawns is greener now, because there are also Western seeds, such varieties.
  35. Ivan Sirko
    0
    20 November 2013 12: 15
    The material interests of people always flourish only under the cover of the heroic virtues of mankind. But as soon as material interests come to the fore, and thereby they undermine their own premises for their being.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 22: 45
      Quote: Ivan Sirko
      The material interests of people always flourish only under the cover of the heroic virtues of mankind. But as soon as material interests come to the fore, and thereby they undermine their own premises for their being.

      Now translate this into Russian
  36. +1
    20 November 2013 12: 29
    I remember when I was still in school in the mid-80s, and somehow the algebra teacher decided to explain to us what communism is. He said that now we have socialism, and when communism comes, it will be ... the article describes almost what the teacher told.
    Probably at sunset of the Union, this model would be very suitable for us.
  37. +1
    20 November 2013 12: 32
    top managers will not be able to receive more than 12 salaries of the lowest paid employee of their company.

    Fair decision. Let's see how it will be implemented in practice if adopted.
    1. Encoder
      0
      20 November 2013 14: 01
      Top managers are not the owners, but the same mercenaries, and this is beneficial not primarily to low-paid employees, but to the owners, although of course they show the opposite to everyone.
  38. Encoder
    0
    20 November 2013 13: 06
    Quote: atalef
    You just didn’t eat real Swiss cheese and I think you don’t have real Swiss watches
    And here I have a real Swiss knife (not a Chinese fake) and it is no better than ours for the same price. And it’s correct about money, although they did it there, they live not on income from industry (it wasn’t there and never was), but on income from bank interest.
    1. +2
      20 November 2013 13: 13
      Quote: Coder
      Quote: atalef
      You just didn’t eat real Swiss cheese and I think you don’t have real Swiss watches
      And here I have a real Swiss knife (not a Chinese fake) and it is no better than ours for the same price. And it’s correct about money, although they did it there, they live not on income from industry (it wasn’t there and never was), but on income from bank interest.

      Well, for some, the bride was a mare, and you were in Switzerland? What would be so clear to say that there is no industry? And by the way, what is the bank percentage taken from? So dial (as an example of money from the neighbors) and doing nothing live on a percentage? What does not work? And why?
      I've been in Switzerland and the Swiss are working and there is where I myself saw

      http://schweiz.su/content/view/67/34/
      review
  39. +6
    20 November 2013 13: 12
    I have been to this country on business trips, I never ceased to be amazed at how intelligently and efficiently everything is done, how conscientiously they work and how well they live. I’ll say right away: I didn’t have a chance to meet with very rich people, but neither did the frankly poor (except for clochards from France in Geneva). In some cantons, the issue of abolishing local taxes was submitted to a referendum - because there was nowhere to put the money, everything was built and comfortable. They have a very decent industry. They produce not only watches, knives and cheese, but mainly high-tech products of the highest quality, for example, the best compositions for dental prosthetics - the whole world buys from them. Thinking about why they can, but we can't, only one thing comes to mind: they are very lawfully obedient, hardworking, and the laws are written by literate people, not athletes or actresses, like ours. The first thing that surprised me was the strict observance of traffic rules even where no one would see for sure if you break, from the hotel window I watched cars approach the intersection with a "stop is required" sign and ALL 5% stopped, and the bus driver , who drove us along the serpentine skiing, waited until 30 cars lined up behind him and stopped to let them pass, the policeman, seeing our dirty car, caught up with us and offered to go to the car wash, even agreed to be accepted, and did not become satisfied mug to draw up a protocol for dirty rooms, the waitress in the restaurant after 100-3, even for a $ 23 tip, did not agree to pour alcohol: "Police Zeitung" and that's it. This is how they differ, so I believe they deserve a guaranteed income.
  40. KPACHA9_3BE3DA
    0
    20 November 2013 13: 25
    Do we have a budget deficit?

    Let's bring democracy to Switzerland!
  41. +2
    20 November 2013 13: 34
    What is the height of the wall around Switzerland they have to build. And how much Swiss citizenship will cost is scary to imagine.
  42. Peaceful military
    +2
    20 November 2013 14: 03
    This is possible in a small and rich Switzerland, not burdened by large military expenses and obligations to the EU and NATO. Given the price level in Switzerland, the amount is modest, so the budget is rising, especially, as noted, the army of social services will be reduced. workers and, therefore, structures, and the level of consumption will increase, which will increase the treasury by taxes. It looks great in one country, and the precedent is good, remembering the role of the USSR in creating modern social policy in all developed countries.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 21: 17
      Quote: Peaceful military
      This is possible in small and rich Switzerland, not burdened by large military expenses


      On a per capita basis, Swiss military expenditures are superior to Russia's military expenditures.

      Switzerland
      The population of about 8 million people
      Military spending in 2012 $ 5,48 billion

      Russia
      The population of about 140 million people
      Military spending in 2013 about $ 71,2 billion

      Wiki


      At the same time, Switzerland does not have oil and gas.
      1. Peaceful military
        +1
        20 November 2013 21: 54
        Quote: Normal
        Quote: Peaceful military
        This is possible in small and rich Switzerland, not burdened by large military expenses

        On a per capita basis, Swiss military expenditures are superior to Russia's military expenditures.
        Switzerland
        The population of about 8 million people
        Military spending in 2012 $ 5,48 billion
        Russia
        The population of about 140 million people
        Military spending in 2013 about $ 71,2 billion
        Wiki
        At the same time, Switzerland does not have oil and gas.

        Do not compare with that. Compare with% of GDP.
        In most prosperous countries, such as Sweden, Finland, etc. no oil, no gas ... so hi
  43. rodevaan
    +1
    20 November 2013 14: 42
    I say again, gentlemen, that all this stupid holivar bred here (sorry for the use of foreigners) is senseless. The argument is pointless!
    Compare Russia and Switzerland, it’s sorry that) \ (opu with a finger!

    These are two completely different countries, with completely different landmarks and with a completely different history, tasks, opportunities and landmarks.

    I’ll tell you all this: if Russia, with all its territory, the availability of resources and capabilities, had been allowed to develop quietly for 200 years without any wars, invasions of any Western-minded barbarians, non-civilizators and other shusharas, then the Russian people would now be at such a stage of development - that not that they would be the first to fly into space, but would have long been exploring other worlds with the help of super nano-tenologies, and all these Westoids would now be compared to us at the level of African Bushmen. The Russian people are so talented and have such potential that no Switzerland could dream of it. It’s a pity they just didn’t let our people really reveal their talents at full capacity.

    We have gone through too much, and too often defended our right to be a great country, while the tiny, unneeded and no pretending Switzerland in the West, quietly and peacefully developed their social networks and infrastructure for decades of quiet existence.
  44. +1
    20 November 2013 14: 47
    A small country is always easier to manage. However, their very self-government is very strong. State bodies are just accountable to the public, and not vice versa as we do. Therefore, their laws are adopted precisely for the benefit of society, and are not lobbied for the sake of individuals, clans and groups closest to power. For example, the Swiss in the 70s were very concerned about the growing ramp of various new laws, by-laws, etc., seemingly necessary, but greatly complicating the quiet measured life of the population and, therefore, they adopted a law by which it is allowed to adopt a law or act, only in in the event that he replaces at least TWO old laws or acts. Immediately after this, the legislative work of the bureaucracy abruptly declined.
  45. 0
    20 November 2013 14: 49
    let them build their socialism Yes we will observe what enough we’ve been in front of the unknown, if they come up with something good, then we can take it even though they don’t have the same level for us to grow and grow, and the mentality is completely different hi
    1. Peaceful military
      +2
      20 November 2013 15: 16
      Quote: starhina01
      let them build their socialism Yes we will observe what enough we’ve been in front of the unknown, if they come up with something good, then we can take it even though they don’t have the same level for us to grow and grow, and the mentality is completely different hi

      While they were in the "vanguard of progressive humanity" they were people and lived like human beings, but when they exchanged it for "universal human values", they turned into ... you see what ...
  46. Troy
    +1
    20 November 2013 14: 50
    If only we in the oil industry made a difference of 12 salaries maximum, otherwise these "managers" got fat, the drill assistant's salary is hundreds of times less.
  47. +1
    20 November 2013 16: 15
    Quote: vladsolo56

    mentality, these are just tricks of psychologists

    specialist? I doubt it.
    but I know for sure: different nations of people behave differently.
  48. SEM
    SEM
    +1
    20 November 2013 17: 20
    Quote: zart_arn
    From those grandmothers who are stored in Swiss banks, ordinary citizens do not fall into anything. Most of the citizens of Western Europe are honest, conscientious hardworkers who have earned their prosperity with their skilled labor. Switzerland is a country with perhaps the most skilled workforce in the world. Swiss quality has long been the benchmark. Therefore, we need not slander in our black envy, but to build the same fair society. Spiteful critics, honestly admit to yourself - I haven’t discovered America. Yes
    PS By the way, the socialism described in the article has long existed in almost all developed European countries, the Swiss were simply the first to decide to provide it with a clear legislative framework.

    GUYS ARE COMMUNISM FOR GAYS !!! YOU FORGOT )))
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 18: 40
      Quote: SEM
      GUYS ARE COMMUNISM FOR GAYS !!! YOU FORGOT )))

      Then this is not communism, but gehenism.
      And what else will they have to do if freebies pay?
      Only in bed somersault daylight.
  49. rodevaan
    +2
    20 November 2013 17: 45
    In general, the Lord, it’s enough to look there and praise everything there in a paradise. Everywhere has its own problems. And there too. We have our own country and our own reality - not the same as there, because we are not they, not Switzerland. If we were like them, Russia wouldn’t be like that. It would be in the size of three yards, and five farms — about half of the specific principality of Tver surrounded by huge China or the Far East Siberian Caliphate, and would rivet nano-diapers, and nano-drills. And she wouldn’t pretend to be anything.

    And so we have such a fate, to be Russian and to be Russia.
    1. -2
      20 November 2013 22: 47
      Personally for you, a joke.
      The young worm asks the old:
      -dad, and live in an apple well?
      The old one answers:
      -well, son.
      Young:
      in a pear?
      Old:
      -better.
      Young:
      in pineapple?
      Old:
      - Generally chic.
      Young:
      -Why do we live in shit?
      Old:
      -there is such a word, son, homeland.
      1. rodevaan
        +2
        21 November 2013 02: 36
        Quote: corn
        Personally for you, a joke.
        The young worm asks the old:
        -dad, and live in an apple well?
        The old one answers:
        -well, son.
        Young:
        in a pear?
        Old:
        -better.
        Young:
        in pineapple?
        Old:
        - Generally chic.
        Young:
        -Why do we live in shit?
        Old:
        -there is such a word, son, homeland.


        - Absolutely correctly understood .... Although who does not like it - no question - the gate is always open, and no one here is going to hold anyone by the collar. For me, it’s better to collect these in a heap and send them in trains to the west to “paradise”.
        I just disagree with the word dermo in relation to our country. We do not live in such a dermis, and everything is not so scary / terrible as we are used to screaming and moaning ... Although this is also the mentality of this - always whining like "everything is bad" ...
        1. -1
          21 November 2013 22: 07
          You know, for me there is a huge semantic difference in phrases:
          - "... this is our fate, to be Russians ..." (so they say from despair)
          -I am proud that I am Russian (as normal people say)
          -I am better than others because I am Russian (not even nationalists say so, but fascists)
          Ksati instead of Russian, you can put any nationality
    2. +1
      21 November 2013 02: 09
      To all this. it is completely incomprehensible why in such a paradise country like Switzerland there is a high level of suicides. And indeed, the quality of life is not determined by the system, but by the number of births and deaths, and life expectancy. These are the numbers in Switzerland to see.
  50. +2
    20 November 2013 18: 33
    The USSR was richer than Switzerland and the economy grew at a rapid pace, until Khrushchev introduced leveling, and Brezhnev led out. The result is known to all.
    Switzerland's advantage over the USSR is that it has not been at war since 1847, is not spent on the military-industrial complex and army maintenance, and is located in the most economically developed region of Western Europe.
    Perhaps in Europe it will be possible to create a paradise for 7 million Swiss if the financial collapse of the system does not happen.
    1. 0
      20 November 2013 18: 56
      Quote: Corsair5912
      The USSR was richer than Switzerland and the economy grew at a rapid pace, until Khrushchev introduced leveling, and Brezhnev led out. Everyone knows the result.

      Excuse me . but this is ridiculous. In what years was the per capita income in Switzerland lower than in the USSR?
      Quote: Corsair5912
      The advantage of Switzerland over the USSR is that it has not been at war since 1847, is not spent on the military-industrial complex and the maintenance of the army

      Switzerland is one of the most militarized countries. with active reserve, general military duty and regular fees
      All men with Swiss citizenship between the ages of 19 and 31 who are recognized by the medical council as fit for military service are required to serve in the Swiss Armed Forces. Although the call may be postponed until after high school, service in the armed forces must be completed regardless of the time and fact of entering the country's higher educational institution

      Quote: Corsair5912
      and is located in the most economically developed region of Western Europe.

      At the same time being one of the most technologically advanced countries
      Perhaps in Europe it will be possible to create a paradise for 7 million Swiss if the financial collapse of the system does not happen.

      In general, Switzerland is not in the EU.
  51. Aydar
    0
    20 November 2013 19: 13
    It’s better if they abolish money - it’s all evil and switch to natural exchange - that’s what communism will be.
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 20: 03
      do you want to say that people will pay for goods in kind? what belay
  52. Gluxar_
    +1
    20 November 2013 19: 53
    Quote: atalef
    In general, Switzerland is not in the EU.

    Why does a Jewish group shit on this site? They don’t care what topic, the main thing is against the opinion of the majority... well, hexagonal trolls...
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 20: 00
      Quote: Gluxar_
      Quote: atalef
      In general, Switzerland is not in the EU.

      Why does a Jewish group shit on this site? They don’t care what topic, the main thing is against the opinion of the majority... well, hexagonal trolls...

      To remind people like you that the head is not only. whatever there is to eat. By the way, thank God you are not the majority.
  53. Marek Rozny
    -1
    20 November 2013 21: 27
    From my Swiss experience, I prefer the system of relationships between the cantons and the center. This is an excellent example for the creation of the Eurasian Union.
    As for the economy, if we are not lazy and do not break laws, then sooner or later we will also achieve a high standard of living.
    1. +1
      20 November 2013 22: 57
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      As for the economy, if we are not lazy and do not break laws, then sooner or later we will also achieve a high standard of living.

      Wars are constantly being waged against Russia precisely to prevent us from building our own economy. In addition, every hundred years another Patriotic War occurs. These Swiss have not seen life in their mountains, they live in an artificial economic environment, their model will not work in Russia, we have reality, not hothouse conditions.
      1. +1
        20 November 2013 23: 03
        Quote: Setrac
        Wars are constantly being waged against Russia

        Perhaps Serdyukov is an agent of the West? Or maybe the Grand Dukes who made it possible to lose the Russo-Japanese War?
        Quote: Setrac
        These Swiss did not see life in their mountains,
        These Swiss, with their military training, discouraged everyone from coming to the mountains to flatter them. And they saw life and peace by participating as mercenaries in wars.
        And now they have a very combat-ready army.
        1. +2
          20 November 2013 23: 30
          Quote: Kars
          Perhaps Serdyukov is an agent of the West? Or maybe the Grand Dukes who made it possible to lose the Russo-Japanese War?

          What does the Grand Dukes have to do with it? Western financial assistance made this war possible. Take an interest in how many ships Japan built; the entire West fought against Russia at the hands of the Japanese.
          Quote: Kars
          These Swiss, with their military training, discouraged everyone from coming to the mountains to flatter them. And they saw life and peace by participating as mercenaries in wars.

          Tell us about the role of the Swiss army in World War II! There were no Swiss in the decisive wars and battles that determined the world order. They have an invincible army because no one has attacked them for a long time. Why didn’t these valiant warriors stop Napoleon or Suvorov?
          Quote: Kars
          And now they have a very combat-ready army.

          They run a pioneer camp.
        2. rodevaan
          +1
          21 November 2013 02: 45
          Quote: Kars
          Quote: Setrac
          Wars are constantly being waged against Russia

          Perhaps Serdyukov is an agent of the West? Or maybe the Grand Dukes who made it possible to lose the Russo-Japanese War?
          Quote: Setrac
          These Swiss did not see life in their mountains,
          These Swiss, with their military training, discouraged everyone from coming to the mountains to flatter them. And they saw life and peace by participating as mercenaries in wars.
          And now they have a very combat-ready army.


          - To crush some Switzerland to zero is a matter of two or three days. Another question is that no one really needs her. This is the first. And secondly, it holds capital and savings from all over the world. Not only will no one want to go there, but simply no one will let them be conquered. A very convenient position, by the way. And there is no need for any military-industrial complex.
          1. +1
            21 November 2013 11: 04
            Quote: Setrac
            Western financial assistance made this war possible. Ask how many ships Japan has built,

            Why couldn’t Japan build a fleet and other powers help it? And ask how much money went to the ballerina Knyashinskaya instead of guns for Port Arthur.
            and by the way, yes, but it’s okay that the USA, Germany, France built ships and guns for Russia? According to your logic (at least what I’m talking about Sec and logic is bad manners) half the world also fought against Japan?
            Quote: Setrac
            Tell us about the role of the Swiss army in World War II

            She played one of the best roles - the Swiss did not end up in a bloodbath, and at the same time shot down German Messerschmitts that violated her air borders.
            Quote: Setrac
            They have an invincible army because no one has attacked them for a long time.

            What is an indicator in itself?
            Quote: Setrac
            Why didn’t these valiant warriors stop Napoleon or Suvorov?

            Why? It was the Russians, or rather the German tsars, who had a problem in one place. And who was Prince Sheremetyev who said - women still give birth to men and pay for horses in gold?
            Quote: Setrac
            They run a pioneer camp.

            Which is more combat-ready than the main part of the Russian troops, and not a numerical advantage and nuclear weapons would generally be laughed at.
            Quote: rodevaan
            - To crush some Switzerland to zero is a matter of two or three days.
            You crushed Georgia in three days, losing more people and equipment than the United States in the First Iraqi War
            Quote: rodevaan
            Another question is that no one really needs her. This is the first.
            Well, yes, Finland wanted it that way too and lost more than a hundred thousand lives.
            Quote: rodevaan
            And secondly, it holds capital and savings from all over the world.
            So what? They promised to return the loot from the Swiss bankers and that’s it.

            Quote: rodevaan
            A very convenient position, by the way. And there is no need for any military-industrial complex.

            Cyprus and the Cayman Islands are also swimming in gold.
            1. 0
              23 November 2013 13: 35
              The Pope's Swiss Guard in striped shirts is especially dangerous
    2. rodevaan
      +2
      21 November 2013 02: 41
      Quote: Marek Rozny

      As for the economy, if we are not lazy and do not break laws, then sooner or later we will also achieve a high standard of living.


      - Naive Chukotka guy! What does laziness have to do with it? Do you want to say that we do not have able-bodied and truly responsible people? What nonsense? During the war, thousands of people hunched over at the machine, after the war, the norms were exceeded 3-5 times, not for money, but for the idea. And you say that our people are lazy?? Nonsense of a gray gelding!
      These people are simply not allowed to work normally, and they will never be allowed into power, where corruption flourishes and total nepotism. And if there are such people there, then they will never be allowed to work normally and will simply survive from there.
  54. Backfire
    0
    21 November 2013 04: 54
    Quote: atalef
    There was no such experiment, without fairy tales, neither that country, nor that time

    If I'm not mistaken, it was in Spitsbergen. The USSR had a coal mining concession there.

    It is noteworthy that the experiment was abruptly interrupted precisely after people began to take caviar for free, then scarce ones would cost less than when they could buy it and less than at the beginning of the experiment.

    Why do you think this course of events frightened the “Native Party and Government” so much that they decided to abruptly curtail the experiment at what seemed to be the most interesting place?!
  55. rodevaan
    +1
    21 November 2013 20: 03
    Quote: Kars
    You crushed Georgia in three days, losing more people and equipment than the United States in the First Iraqi War
    Quote: rodevaan
    Another question is that no one really needs her. This is the first.
    Well, yes, Finland wanted it that way too and lost more than a hundred thousand lives.


    1. Absolutely right - they crushed the pro-Western Saakashvili like an annoying flea in 3 days, losing a minimum number of soldiers - namely 64 people. At the same time, he dispersed this vaunted and Pin-dostan-trained booth like a herd of sheep through the mountains. The fact that the pro-Western media are now trying with all their might to pass off a quick victory with minimal losses as an alleged defeat is an elementary information war that is being waged against us with all its might. and the idiots naturally believe in all these bullshit stories from the shitcratic press, which is generously supplied from the State Department...
    By the way, for reference, during the first campaign in Iraq, Pind-Dosyatina lost about 300 people....
    1. +1
      21 November 2013 20: 44
      Quote: rodevaan
      1. Absolutely right - they crushed

      Well, yes, they crushed it.
      Quote: rodevaan
      By the way, for reference, during the first campaign in Iraq, Pind-Dosyatina lost about 300 people.

      For three days?
      Quote: rodevaan
      soldiers - namely 64 people

      Don't you think there are any wounded?

      And we have been preparing for this for several years,
      Quote: rodevaan
      . What a quick victory with minimal losses
      Yes, it’s just horror. If it were the Georgians, even the Somalis would have had a bloodbath there. And so they managed to lose the Tu-22.


      Quote: rodevaan
      2. Now about Finland. If anyone has democratic (that is, electoral) memory lapses, then let me remind you in a totalitarian manner that the USSR twice treated Chukhondia for stupidity

      Of course, he treated - the Whites in 20 killed all the communists and did not become the 16th republic of the USSR, in 1939 they lost almost 300 with an irrevocable 000 thousand. That even such a .. peace-loving .. person like Stalin did not dare to occupy.

      And thank you, the number of letters made me smile, I didn’t read them all - I roughly know what is written there. But the facts are clear: Finland is not the 16th republic of the USSR. During the war, the Finns agreed with the USSR and framed the Germans; if the Finns were active, Leningrad would have fallen. The joke was even about two non-combatant armies in Europe, the Swedish and the 23rd Soviet.
      1. rodevaan
        0
        22 November 2013 03: 33
        - If you are an adherent of the brave Pindo-Syak warriors, then personally I can only sympathize with you. Same for me, they found a military idol for worship. Although, unfortunately, this is always typical for a certain segment of our people.

        Okay, now let's get down to business.
        Quote: Kars
        For three days?

        Yes. In 3 days. Since two thirds of these 64 dead were peacekeepers who were subjected to an unexpected and vile attack by Saakashvili, and held the defense under these conditions. In contrast, Pin-Dosyatina in the first Iraqi campaign had long planned the invasion, having bribed most of the Iraqi generals in advance (which was then successfully used again when they went there for the second time).
        Quote: Kars
        Don't you think there are any wounded?

        Don't you think there are any wounded?
        Quote: Kars
        Yes, it’s just horror. If it were the Georgians, even the Somalis would have had a bloodbath there. And so they managed to lose the Tu-22.

        Well, horror/not horror, but they dispersed the Saakashvili gang prepared by the vaunted Pin-Dostan in 3 days. And this is an indisputable and natural fact, no matter who squeals in the West.
        And how the brave overseas rangers, whom you all pray for there, fight in Somalia - we saw very well in the example of Mogadishu in 93, when they got a good beating there)\(oops and they quickly fled from there.
        Yes, by the way, in the first Iraqi “war” Russia did not help Iraq, because it completely fell on all fours in front of the general Westernoid cattle. If we had begun to help the Iraqis during this invasion, just as we helped the Vietnamese in our time, it remains to be seen how many invaders would have died there, and how it would have ended in the end.
      2. rodevaan
        +1
        22 November 2013 03: 34
        Quote: Kars
        Of course, he treated - the Whites in 20 killed all the communists and did not become the 16th republic of the USSR, in 1939 they lost almost 300 with an irrevocable 000 thousand. That even such a .. peace-loving .. person like Stalin did not dare to occupy.


        - Treated! And as you can see, he cured it very well. I say again that I don’t remember anything when Finland wanted to join any anti-Russian entity after the war...
        And secondly, it is naive idiocy, again imposed from the West, to believe that the USSR, if it wanted, could not occupy Chukhlyandiya. Do you yourself believe in this nonsense of the gray gelding? If yes, then I sympathize with you. Because not having a realistic perspective on things is no fun at all. Yes, if there was a need, they would crush these little guys and not choke, and would occupy them and deprive them of their independence. We did what we wanted. And no one would do anything. The Finns themselves came out of the war and ran to ask for peace, plus they agreed to all the conditions put forward by the USSR. What's the point of continuing the war if the enemy has already agreed to all your claims? The peace-loving Stalin also apparently understood this.
        It's the same in Georgia. Are you seriously sure that Russian troops would not have been able to occupy all of Georgia in 2008 and enter Tbilisi? After they dispersed through the mountains in 3 days, did they become oppressed sheep? Do you believe this nonsense? Read less of the "democratic" press, it has a very bad effect on the brain.
        As for the loss of the Tu-22, I explain to you once again that war (any war) does not happen without losses. And that aircraft of any country (even the most democratic) are shot down even by the most hopelessly outdated air defenses - as shown by the example of Yugoslavia, which, with the Soviet S-125 air defense system of 1976, destroyed the super-duper sophisticated Pindosyatsky F-117 stealth . And also an example of the second Iraq, when a peasant grandfather demolished a super-modern Apache helicopter with a rifle almost from the 19th century.
        For some reason, our pro-Western adherents and adherents of democracy, screaming at the top of their lungs about the Tu-22, are modestly silent about this...

        Quote: Kars
        But the facts are clear: Finland is not the 16th republic of the USSR. During the war, the Finns agreed with the USSR and framed the Germans; with the active action of the Finns, Leningrad would have fallen. The joke was even about two non-combatant armies in Europe, the Swedish and the 23rd Soviet.


        - History does not know the subjunctive mood. Because no one will say what would happen if grandmother were grandfather. No one was going to make Finland the 16th republic, but it was necessary to pacify them. Which, in fact, was done - they still sit straight on the butt. And if it were necessary, they would have made it the 16th republic. The example of the GDR, which was secretly called the 16th republic, is obvious.
        But the facts remain facts, the Chukhnyaks trampled along with the Krauts near Leningrad and could not do anything. They couldn't, but they didn't want to. Because Hitler more than once fell into fits about sitting still near Leningrad and changing commanders there. Then they drove this whole western pack back.
        1. +1
          22 November 2013 11: 11
          Quote: rodevaan
          - If you are an adherent of the brave Pindo-syat warriors,

          I am an adherent of truth, and I am trying to find it in the rubble of lies and concealment. And I sympathize with you as a victim of propaganda, whose ability to think for themselves has atrophied.
          Quote: rodevaan
          Yes. In 3 days

          Did I doubt it? In three days, only.
          Quote: rodevaan
          were subjected to an unexpected and vile attack by Saakashvili

          Of course, the Russian Federation has no intelligence.
          Quote: rodevaan
          In contrast, Pin-dosyatina in the first Iraqi campaign had long planned the invasion,
          These are the problems of the Russian Federation, which also spent a lot of time preparing for the war in Ossetia, and which, by the way, did not need to lead its troops across three nine lands like the United States. And naturally, the American operation began after the fall of Kuwait.
          Quote: rodevaan
          having bribed most of the Iraqi generals in advance

          in 1991? No need to tell fairy tales.
          Quote: rodevaan
          Don't you think there are any wounded?

          I think. All the same, Russia’s losses are simply terrible, and this is against some Georgians))) (whom the Russians themselves do not consider good soldiers)
          Quote: rodevaan
          Well, horror/not horror, but they dispersed the Saakashvili gang prepared by the vaunted Pin-Dostan in 3 days

          Who would doubt it, it would be funny if it had turned out the other way around, but this could have happened if Saakoshvili had not been confident that Russia would get into the war so unsparingly its soldiers.
          Quote: rodevaan
          , in Somalia - we saw very well in the example of Mogadishu '93,

          Little things, I would see how the East would fight in battle there. With such preparation as in Ossetia.

          Quote: rodevaan
          Yes, by the way, in the first Iraqi “war” Russia did not help Iraq,

          She didn’t help in the second either. And you can remember how the Russian Federation helps in the USSR and the Arab-Israeli wars.
          Quote: rodevaan
          Treated! And as you can see, he cured it very well. I say again that I don’t remember anything when Finland wanted to join any anti-Russian entity after the war...

          Why should she? She defended her independence and conducted a very profitable business with both the USSR and the West.
          But the USSR lost a bunch of people and did not get Finland back.
        2. +1
          22 November 2013 11: 12
          Quote: rodevaan
          And secondly, it is naive idiocy, again imposed from the West, to believe that the USSR, if it wanted, could not occupy Chukhlyandiya

          Apparently you don't read well?
          Quote: Kars
          In 1939, they lost almost 300 with an irrevocable 000 thousand. That even such a .. peace-loving .. person like Stalin did not dare to occupy.

          Of course, he could have occupied it - he would have lost another half a million, and, look, he would have ended up in a war with England.
          Quote: rodevaan
          As for the loss of the Tu-22, I explain to you once again that war (any) does not happen without losses

          Well, yes, especially with a country like Georgia.
          Quote: rodevaan
          provided an example to Yugoslavia

          So it is much larger than Georgia, and the operation against it did not last 3 days.

          Quote: rodevaan
          - History does not know the subjunctive mood

          And in fact, Finland is an independent country, despite the overwhelming power of the Red Army.
          Quote: rodevaan
          But the facts remain facts, the Chukhnyaks trampled along with the Krauts near Leningrad and could not do anything.

          She didn’t want to, take an interest in this issue. At the same time, you will find out why Finland, despite its participation in WWII on the side of the Germans, escaped so easily, one might say painlessly. Unlike Hungary or Romania, which became complete satellites of the USSR, and where Soviet troops were stationed.
          1. 0
            22 November 2013 22: 01
            Quote: Kars
            And in fact, Finland is an independent country, despite the overwhelming power of the Red Army.

            The theme of Finland's exit from the war and the preservation of its sovereignty is generally indicative of the policy of the USSR pursued in the context of the ongoing 2nd World War.

            So, did Stalin have the opportunity to annex the territory of Finland?
            The balance of power shows that YES.

            But why didn't this happen?

            For those interested, details are here:

            http://is.gd/aC1FZD
            1. +1
              22 November 2013 22: 20
              Quote: Corsair
              So, did Stalin have the opportunity to annex the territory of Finland?

              But looking at the size and population, there are some doubts(
              Quote: Corsair
              http://is.gd/aC1FZD

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          2. rodevaan
            +1
            23 November 2013 07: 19
            Quote: Kars

            Of course, I could occupy another half a million....



            - Oh God.... Complete nonsense, I won’t even argue with you, because it’s useless. It’s better to read the history of the war with the Finns, and preferably not only from Western sources, and especially not from scattered ones from the early-mid-late 90s.... I repeat once again - if the USSR needed it, the Chukhonians would be deprived of their vaunted " independence" and annexed back to the USSR. If it would be necessary. You just need to move away from Svanidzov’s perception of historical facts and think at least logically. Having broken through the Mannerheim line and advancing deep into Finland, where there were no longer any lines, the Red Army would simply occupy them and that’s all.
            If you don’t believe me and the historical facts, maybe you will believe your idols overseas: “Despite the significant damage caused by the war, Finland was able to maintain its independence; however, if the USSR had been vitally interested in this, there is no doubt that Finnish independence would have been destroyed. Finland emerged from the war with an understanding of this fact and the intention to create new and constructive relations with the USSR". This is data prepared by the Americans (US Library of Congress Country Study “Finland, The Effects of the War”). Actually, to confirm my words, I’ll rub your nose in once again that after the war, the bullshit never tried to get involved in any anti-Russian alliances like NATO, etc. and developed truly trade and constructive relations with the USSR. That is, the fact of curing Finnish pre-war stupidity was obvious.
            Regarding losses - do not read Borusik Sokolov and Rezun at night - it is harmful to your health.
            Regarding the “terrible” losses during the 3 days of the clash with Georgia - did Saakshvili whisper this to you? I don’t need to write about “independent” Western so-called “sources,” especially those who write about Russian and Soviet losses. I read all this propaganda and anti-Russian nonsense of a gray gelding in the 90s. I won't even waste my time.

            And in general, the dispute is pointless, because proving something to you is a waste of time.
            1. +1
              23 November 2013 13: 37
              Quote: rodevaan
              - Oh God.... Complete nonsense, I won’t even argue with you, because it’s useless

              Just call me master.
              You don’t want to argue about sports. You’re just doing it too verbosely.
              Quote: rodevaan
              . I repeat once again - if the USSR needed it, the Chukhons would be deprived of their vaunted “independence” and annexed back to the USSR.

              And I will repeat once again - half a million sanitary losses and all business, plus the completely destroyed everything that can be destroyed.
              Quote: rodevaan
              Regarding losses - do not read Borusik Sokolov and Rezun at night - it is harmful to your health.

              Write your version of losses, what is the problem?
              Quote: rodevaan
              That is, the fact of curing Finnish pre-war stupidity was obvious.

              Why did they enter the war on the side of the Germans? They didn’t even maintain neutrality.
              Quote: rodevaan
              Regarding the “terrible” losses during the 3 days of the clash with Georgia - did Saakshvili whisper this to you?
              Why, your official sources, who by the way for some reason cannot agree on the same figures.

              Quote: rodevaan
              And in general, the dispute is pointless, because proving something to you is a waste of time.

              Don't prove it, especially if you can't prove it.
              1. rodevaan
                0
                23 November 2013 19: 01
                Quote: Kars
                Just call me master.
                You don’t want to argue about sports. You’re just doing it too verbosely.

                - You answer, and I write to you. Just call me master. ... yeah, the ruler... of the universe...
                Quote: Kars
                And I will repeat once again - half a million sanitary losses and all business, plus the completely destroyed everything that can be destroyed.

                - And I will repeat to you once again about the Chukhon “independence”... I even gave a lot of arguments. Even an overseas saying (at that time the States were not yet our bosom “friend-partner”, and they wrote about us more or less objectively). The fact that you do not accept or understand them is your personal assumption or desire, unfounded...

                Quote: Kars
                Write your version of losses, what is the problem?


                - No problem. I believe that the figure for the ratio of military losses on the Soviet-German front of 1:1,3 most realistically reflects the facts. We lost more only due to certain circumstances, which in the current situation could not be ignored or resolved with minimal losses. Namely:
                1. A sudden attack by a fully prepared and fully armed enemy on a completely unprepared Red Army, which did not expect such a massive attack simultaneously in all directions. Hence the complete chaos, chaos and confusion that reigned at the beginning of the war on almost the entire Soviet-German front, massive losses and prisoners. This is logically understandable and explainable. When you are unexpectedly hit from around the corner in a dark alley, knocked to the floor and begin to beat you while you are lying down, you will probably end up with many more bruises and abrasions before you can stand up under the hail of blows and begin to respond to the offender.
                2. Due to the loss of almost the entire material and technical base, loss of control over the troops and initial confusion, the Soviet troops lost the strategic initiative and were unable, with the exception of only a few directions and fortified cities (Odessa, Sevastopol, Stalingrad, Kyiv, Leningrad), to organize a competent and coordinated resistance. To reverse this strategic initiative, it was necessary to strain and use all the resources (material and human) available to the state in order to stop and wear down the enemy, who was rapidly advancing into the interior of the country, at any cost. And this required greater casualties and losses than the enemy.
                And it was precisely this overexertion of all forces that led to the fact that our army survived, recovered from the initial shock, began to respond adequately, and ultimately drove the already fairly exhausted enemy back to the west, giving the Fritz in the 45th our 41st, partially getting even losses of '41.
              2. rodevaan
                0
                23 November 2013 19: 01
                And I don’t think we need to talk about such operations as Korsun-Shevchenkovskaya, “Bagration” or Yassko-Kishinevskaya... How many Fritzes were put there - only God knows, and they can be quite compared to our disasters in 41. Further, you will not find information anywhere in German sources about how many Nazis were killed in 45. How many non-combatants were killed, boys from the Hitler Youth or elderly Volkssturm soldiers, from whom they hastily formed ragamuffin units and threw them under the tracks of our 34s. This data is not available anywhere, because the retreating fascists no longer kept any reports of military losses at the end of 44 and 45. Our 41st was already there. Mass surrender and total escape.
                The fact that we ultimately did not bring the loss count to equal or even greater than ours is explained by the extremely small amount of time spent fighting in 45 on the territory of Germany. In contrast to the duration of hostilities in our country in 41-42.

                Quote: Kars
                Why did they enter the war on the side of the Germans? They didn’t even maintain neutrality.


                - Firstly, the revanchist sentiments of the hotheads have not yet subsided, and secondly, because the Nazi lightning war against Western democracies clearly showed the degree of militarization of Nazi Germany, and Nazi propaganda, led by Dr. Goebbels, trumpeted with might and main the USSR as a supposedly a colossus with feet of clay. Even the British and American allies were almost all 100% sure that the USSR would not survive even a month against the Krauts. Western diplomats, military advisers, and representatives of the press themselves admitted this... Therefore, the Chukhonians were very confident in the invincibility of the German ally, who would realize to them for their jackalism everything that our Lapland fools did not achieve in 39-40. At one time there were many such lightning-fast “confident” people in the Western world, but as a rule they all ended the same way. And this time it ended the same way.

                Quote: Kars
                Don't prove it, especially if you can't prove it.


                - I present arguments, but you cannot even refute them, limiting yourself only to general phrases. I have my own point of view on the issue under discussion - I consistently defend it. Because I don’t want to wordlessly accept the Western propaganda diarrhea that all sorts of corrupt media tirelessly pour on our heads, on our army and on our veteran heroes.
  56. rodevaan
    +1
    21 November 2013 20: 04
    2. Now about Finland. If anyone has democratic (that is, electoral) memory lapses, then let me totalitarianly remind you that the USSR twice treated Chukhondia for stupidity and all sorts of idiotic and delusional ideas to enter into all sorts of anti-Russian alliances and start all sorts of provocations with us. In 39-40, after the Finns were first buried in bunkers, and then finally kicked out of the Mannerheim line, and then driven further into their Lapland swamps, they suddenly realized that they were no longer able to fight the USSR and ran to us to ask for peace. As a result, all territorial disputes were settled in favor of the USSR, we gained full control over Lake Ladoga, and secured our northern port of Murmansk. A lot more was achieved, read it at your leisure if you are interested. What the chukhnya was trying to achieve with this provocation is unclear.
    The fact that the Red Army lost more people in that war than the Finns is easily explained. The attacking side almost always suffers greater losses than the defending side, and in that war the Soviet troops had to break into a defensive line saturated with all sorts of pillboxes and bunkers, which was considered one of the impregnable ones at that time. Smoking enemies out of their holes and bunkers like rats is always a difficult task, no matter who settled there, and it would be strange if the attacking side did not suffer any losses when breaking through these fortifications.
    The second time the Finns began to be treated for idiocy was already in the Great Patriotic War, and in 1944 they were again driven into their Lapland swamps. The Chukhnya decided to solve their problems with the hands of the Nazis, and therefore, despite the fact that they had already been given the horns in 39-40, they still climbed up again. As a result, the USSR crushed them again and took them out of the war in 44. This time, Molotov punished these careless fools so much, imposed a tribute of 300 million dollars, and took Petsamo with its nickel deposits, plus forced the Finns to fight against their former German ally. As a result, this whole stupid adventure cost the Finns 100 thousand killed men, which was a very sensitive blow for a population of 3 million. You can also add about 50 thousand Finns killed in the Winter War. That is, approximately every fifth Finn was killed during this anti-Russian crazy idea. So it is still unknown who suffered more, and who ended up getting more.
    And to confirm my words, I will say that after these two very effective preventions against stupidity, Finland has never had even the slightest desire for decades to join any NATO, SchMato, and other anti-Russian alliances in order to once again pull fate by the horns .

    So we don’t need to stick to any crap modern anti-Russian nonsense here, invented in the West and with which we are already fed up to our ears...
    1. 0
      21 November 2013 22: 38
      You tell with such gusto how you heaped 190 million on 3,9 million. At the same time, you want to convince that these 3,9 million are to blame for this.
      1. rodevaan
        -1
        22 November 2013 02: 35
        Quote: corn
        You tell with such gusto how you heaped 190 million on 3,9 million. At the same time, you want to convince that these 3,9 million are to blame for this.


        - Firstly, I am talking about this with such gusto only because the current so-called crap-stained Rassenians, like an obedient herd of stupid sheep, believe in the gusto with which they write all sorts of vile things about our army and about our people in the West, and are trying to with the help of all sorts of Svanids, Mlechins and others to push these libels through us. That’s why I’m writing about this, because I know well how the Russian soldier knew how to fight, and how he always broke off the horns of all his Western enemies.
        And 3,9 million are to blame themselves - if only because, having been punched in the horns once, they did not understand the obvious - that fighting against the USSR, that is, against 190 million, is complete cretinism and an obviously disastrous idea. As a matter of fact, this is how it naturally happened.
    2. 0
      22 November 2013 10: 52
      “The attacking side almost always suffers greater losses than the defending side” (rodevaan).
      The main type of combat operations is the offensive.
      Judging by your statement, it is necessary to first force the enemy to attack in order to defeat him.
      This somehow contradicts military science.
      In military science there is the concept of “forced defense”, “deliberate defense”, but there is no concept of “forced offensive”
      The experience of the Great Patriotic War shows something else: the losses in the first period when we retreated were enormous.
      “And to confirm my words, I will say that after these two very effective preventions against stupidity, Finland has never had even the slightest desire for decades to join any NATO, shMato, and other anti-Russian alliances in order to once again tug at fate for horns."(rodevaan).
      Ksati, the article is about Switzerland, and in refutation of your words, without “prevention” and not in NATO or in the EU.
      1. rodevaan
        0
        23 November 2013 07: 33
        Quote: corn
        “The attacking side almost always suffers greater losses than the defending side” (rodevaan).
        The main type of combat operations is the offensive.
        Judging by your statement, it is necessary to first force the enemy to attack in order to defeat him.
        This somehow contradicts military science.
        In military science there is the concept of “forced defense”, “deliberate defense”, but there is no concept of “forced offensive”
        The experience of the Great Patriotic War shows something else: the losses in the first period when we retreated were enormous.
        “And to confirm my words, I will say that after these two very effective preventions against stupidity, Finland has never had even the slightest desire for decades to join any NATO, shMato, and other anti-Russian alliances in order to once again tug at fate for horns."(rodevaan).
        Ksati, the article is about Switzerland, and in refutation of your words, without “prevention” and not in NATO or in the EU.


        - Well, we didn’t fight with Switzerland. They themselves chose the path of neutrality, and, as practice shows, they did the right thing. But I note once again that such a tiny piece of land as Switzerland has no need to pursue a policy other than neutrality - because it does not pretend to anything and does not decide anything in the world. That's why they look at it as a world bank, watches and chocolates.
        Chukhlyandiya, unlike Switzerland, began to pursue an aggressive policy for us, for which it had to be pacified, and more than once. And they gave it a good blow to the head - because after the collapse of the USSR, Finland, to its credit, by the way, was perhaps the only country, unlike all our Eastern European allies - “brother Slavs”, which did not participate in the global anti-Russian hysteria, ignored NATO, which, like an annoying groom, constantly came to them with all sorts of “offers”... And this cannot be ignored. Yes, of course there are, as elsewhere, individual Russophobic elements, but this trash does not affect the country’s politics at all.
        Throughout its history, Russia has repeatedly hit the adversaries who have repeatedly come here hard on the head. After the prevention of Peter I, Sweden has been neutral for more than 200 years. The restless Krauts also got a good rap in the Great Patriotic War. For 70 years now, Germany has been sitting on its butt, not showing its nose, and regularly repenting for the Second World War...

        There are many such examples. So it’s better to let them sit in their neutrality - it will be better for them. The example of Switzerland is obvious.
        1. 0
          23 November 2013 10: 08
          You did not answer the first part of my comment. This is, after all, a military site and you made a statement on a military issue: the distribution of losses during combat operations.
          Regarding the relationship between Russia and Sweden-cyberleninka.ru›article…rossiysko…rynke-xviii-veka, see

          rub this site.
          Your statement that they tapped 300 years in advance does not require any refutation due to its incorrectness.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. rodevaan
            0
            23 November 2013 13: 15
            Your statement that they tapped 300 years in advance does not require any refutation due to its incorrectness.

            What is incorrect? Just don’t get smart here and give me all sorts of links - learn to express your thoughts and arguments in words in polemics, and not throw around links.
            The fact is that they have weaned off coveting our lands - the Swedes, at least periodically, spit in compote until Russia turns away, but things have not gone further than this for 200 years. Germany, after 45 years, is quieter than water, below the grass, has been repenting and apologizing for 70 years. And he does the right thing. This does them credit. Personally, I do not remember a single conflict after the war in which Germany took the leading, organizational or most aggressive role. I’ve already written about Finland 3 times above, I’m tired of repeating the same thing.
            Russophobia has never brought dividends to anyone. The post-war government of Finland quite correctly understood that their pre-war pro-fascist and anti-Russian adventures were unreasonably expensive and the death of every fifth Finn in the war was ultimately not justified. Finland was thoroughly planed territorially. That's what they achieved - and we didn't need their s--independence for nothing. We have enough land without them. Therefore, the post-war Finnish leaders quite correctly judged that it was better to be friends and trade with us, rather than fight, and began to pursue this policy. And they did absolutely the right thing, in my opinion. Thanks to this policy, Finland now occupies one of the leading places in the world in terms of living standards. The Germans finally, as we see, also understood this. Apparently only the Poles have not understood this yet. But I won’t say anything about these at all. There is no cure for this anymore.
            1. 0
              23 November 2013 20: 53
              1. You sent me to B. Urlanis, who did not deal with combat losses, because he was never a military man. You confuse the concepts of combat losses and losses as a result of war. I repeat again, if you do not understand: the attacking side suffers heavy losses, than the defender only if she advances incorrectly. I’ll tell you more. In the Battle of Kursk, we switched to deliberate defense and, having exhausted the Germans, went on the offensive, inflicting huge losses on them by attack rather than defense.
              2. You described for a very long time the reasons for our retreat in the initial period of the war, and the result of the retreat was huge losses; if there had been no retreat, there would have been no huge losses.
              3. Having wished me "...learn to express your thoughts and arguments in words in debate, and not throw links." Apart from your last name, you did not deign to refer to the monograph “Wars and Population of Europe” by B. Urlanis, which was republished twice as the book “History of Military Losses. Wars and Population of Europe”
              4. On the question of the Swedes: we have been fighting with the Swedes since the times of Veliky Novgorod. During the time of Peter the Great, Sweden had already begun to weaken. Swedes’ possession of the Baltic Sea began to displease not only Russia, because Sweden traded the same goods as Russia and, owning the Baltic Sea, did not give Russia the opportunity to trade at lower prices. At the beginning of the 19th century, Russia annexed Finland, albeit under special conditions. In modern conditions, our border with Sweden is very small and, by and large, we have nothing to share.
              5. Germany apologizes to the whole world, and not just to us (we are for Afghanistan, just like the Americans for Vietnam, we do not consider ourselves guilty).
              6. “Apparently only the Poles haven’t understood this yet. But I’ll keep quiet about these guys. There’s no cure for this anymore.” With such and such steepness, WHY couldn’t they cure the Poles?
              I got involved in a discussion with you because of your disdainful attitude towards the Finns, whom you called Chukhons, which is akin to Khokhly, churka, etc.
              Your political views do not interest me at all, but you tried to speak out on military issues without completely understanding them correctly, and used an offensive nickname against the Finns.
              1. rodevaan
                0
                25 November 2013 02: 43
                Quote: corn
                1.You sent me to B. Urlanis, who was not involved...


                1. I sent you to Urlanis because, having studied quite a lot of sources on losses in wars, I believe that this source is the most adequate, sane and the farthest from any ideological excesses. There is no need to act like a fool and pretend that you do not understand what monograph we are talking about. If, as I understand, you position yourself as an “advanced” expert on this issue, then you perfectly understood which Urlanis monograph I had in mind.
                2. I again disagree with you about defense. I repeat once again that the retreat of the Red Army in 1941 was not a defense, but a total retreat in chaos and chaos. I also described in detail the reasons for this current situation. If we assume that the Red Army was ready to repel aggression fully armed, believe me, the situation at the front would have been completely different, the losses would have been in completely different proportions, the advancing Wehrmacht would have lost more manpower than the Red Army, and the war might have ended in 42-43, not 45. However, as it happened, so it happened - and 41 years, this is not defense, but a total retreat in complete chaos, when the army ceased to be an army - talking about defense here is completely wrong.
                3. Regarding Sweden, this is your opinion, which I see no point in challenging. I’ll just add that I’m not sure that Sweden will approach us with any aggressive intentions in the next 100 years...
                4. Regarding point 5, there are no questions.
                5. Regarding the Poles, there is no treatment here, only surgery.
                6. You, as I understand it, understand a lot about military issues, confusing retreat and prepared defense. As far as I remember, I separated these concepts and spoke about each separately.
                7. Regarding the Chukhonians - I’m not very interested in your opinion on this matter, but personally I don’t see anything offensive here - for your information, they are also mentioned in A.S.’s works. Pushkin called it, and no one had anything against it.
                1. 0
                  25 November 2013 10: 24
                  “The attacking side almost always suffers greater losses than the defending side” (rodevaan).
                  1. Your words. In the initial period of the war, the USSR was the defending side, Germany was the attacking side. Defense can be prepared or unprepared, and retreat can be organized or unorganized; retreat is colloquially called retreat; unorganized is called flight.
                  2. I heard about Urlanis for the first time from you, and the Internet is a good reference book if you use it correctly.
                  3. You are trying to troll me by talking about my advancement in quotation marks and with some degree of irony about my knowledge in military matters. In Soviet military academies, as in technical universities, there was very good special training, because gases expand when heated, regardless of whether the Communist Party teaches this or not. Therefore, in the USSR there were good engineers, world-famous scientists, and there were practically no worthy lawyers and economists.
                  4.VL in your profile - Vladivostok? There is some kind of temporary dissonance.
                  1. rodevaan
                    0
                    26 November 2013 04: 36
                    Quote: corn
                    “The attacking side almost always suffers greater losses than the defending side” (rodevaan).
                    1. Your words. In the initial period of the war, the USSR was the defending side, Germany was the attacking side. Defense can be prepared or unprepared, and retreat can be organized or unorganized; retreat is colloquially called retreat; unorganized is called flight.
                    2. I heard about Urlanis for the first time from you, and the Internet is a good reference book if you use it correctly.
                    3. You are trying to troll me by talking about my advancement in quotation marks and with some degree of irony about my knowledge in military matters. In Soviet military academies, as in technical universities, there was very good special training, because gases expand when heated, regardless of whether the Communist Party teaches this or not. Therefore, in the USSR there were good engineers, world-famous scientists, and there were practically no worthy lawyers and economists.
                    4.VL in your profile - Vladivostok? There is some kind of temporary dissonance.


                    1. I wrote “almost always”, not “always”, which is not the same thing. In this case, defense did not mean flight or total retreat, but at least a more or less prepared defense.
                    2. Hmm... You surprise me. If you are trying to subtly hint at your involvement in the military academy, then it is strange to me that this is the first time you are hearing about Urlanis. Is there something they don’t study there?
                    3. Right now I’ll give you a belt because you’re ascribing trollism to me, and I’ll put you in a corner! I never troll anyone, and I always answer only the questions put to me or argue if I think I’m right and they object to me. If you say again that I’m trolling you, I’ll stop answering you. Regarding the quality of engineering education in the USSR, I see no reason to disagree.
                    4. Vladivostok in profile. What's wrong with time? What didn't you like again?
                    1. 0
                      26 November 2013 09: 19
                      Sorry, you continue to behave a little incorrectly, “I’ll give you a belt right now.”
                      In military academies they study how to defeat the enemy, and Urlanis’s monograph only proves that it is better not to fight, but does not give answers to questions about how to fight correctly, so either they didn’t study it in the mid-80s or I missed something (it’s impossible to grasp immensity).
                      The temporary discrepancy does not make it possible to react quickly; we would have ended the discussion long ago.
                      The profile says VL, not Vladivostok and the flag of a country that does not exist at the moment.
                      1. rodevaan
                        0
                        27 November 2013 02: 36
                        Quote: corn
                        Sorry, you continue to behave a little incorrectly, “I’ll give you a belt right now.”
                        In military academies they study how to defeat the enemy, and Urlanis’s monograph only proves that it is better not to fight, but does not give answers to questions about how to fight correctly, so either they didn’t study it in the mid-80s or I missed something (it’s impossible to grasp immensity).
                        The temporary discrepancy does not make it possible to react quickly; we would have ended the discussion long ago.
                        The profile says VL, not Vladivostok and the flag of a country that does not exist at the moment.


                        1. Why is it wrong?
                        2. Everything is clear.
                        3. The time difference is felt correctly, since if you are in the west, then we have a difference of about 4-7 hours.
                        4. Due to the absence of a subject of dispute, I think further discussion can end here.
  57. The comment was deleted.
  58. rodevaan
    0
    23 November 2013 13: 17
    Who deleted my comments??
    1. 0
      23 November 2013 13: 18
      Quote: rodevaan
      Who deleted my comments??

      I deleted it, read the site rules!
      1. rodevaan
        0
        23 November 2013 13: 20
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Quote: rodevaan
        Who deleted my comments??

        I deleted it, read the site rules!


        - But why? What was extremist about them? It took me an hour, if not more, to write the answer - everything went down the drain...
        1. 0
          23 November 2013 13: 29
          Quote: rodevaan
          It took me an hour, if not more, to write the answer,

          Damn, I thought you got it from another site. Okay, I’ll write to the admin to restore it. Sorry, I was wrong request
  59. rodevaan
    0
    23 November 2013 13: 31
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Quote: rodevaan
    It took me an hour, if not more, to write the answer,

    Damn, I thought you got it from another site. Okay, I’ll write to the admin to restore it. Sorry, I was wrong request


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