Military Review

Smooth only on paper. Officials slow down the implementation of the presidential decree

37
Smooth only on paper. Officials slow down the implementation of the presidential decreeIt's November already. The hopes of tens of thousands of military people to receive long-awaited apartments this year are melting. Many people in the queue are wondering why the decree of the President of the Russian Federation on 7 of May 2012 No. 604 “On Further Improvement of Military Service in the Russian Federation”, in which Vladimir Putin ordered the government to ensure “full provision in 2013, is not being implemented, according to the legislation of the Russian Federation housing for servicemen of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, other troops, military formations and bodies ”. The answer is trivially simple: the terms of housing for servicemen of the Ministry of Defense were once again adjusted.


CLOSING PROMISE

After familiarizing himself with the “housing inheritance” inherited from former Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, Army General Sergei Shoigu in December 2012 offered Vladimir Putin a new solution to the old problem: from January 2014, start providing housing for servicemen by providing a lump sum cash payment. The president approved this approach as a priority form of housing. Speaking at 27 in February of this year at an expanded meeting of the board of the Ministry of Defense, Vladimir Putin considered it necessary to draw the attention of the leadership of the military department only to the need to "completely eliminate the waiting list and provide everyone with apartments, all." On the new timing, he kept silent. They were voiced at the hearings of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation on the issue “On public control over the implementation of state programs for the provision of housing for servicemen” in early October, Director of the Department of Housing (JO) of the Defense Ministry Sergei Pirogov: “By the end of 2013, we plan to provide 21 400 people the moment of his performance in the queue stood 40 400 people. - N.К.). Mainly in the cities of the Moscow region: Balashikha, Podolsk, Mytischi, as well as in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Rostov-on-Don, Novorossiysk and some other localities. ” The rest, according to the official, is supposed to be provided next year: “Those soldiers who were registered before this date (January 1, 2014 of the year. - N.К.) will be offered apartments. If everything goes as planned, the task of providing permanent accommodation to military personnel by the end of the year should be completed. "

It seems that the head of JO did not accidentally make a reservation “if everything goes as planned”. It happens smoothly only on paper, but in life, for some reason, plans are not always fulfilled.

Attempts by the military department that are extremely ambiguous from the legal point of view to deprive the servicemen of the right to choose the form of housing, and to get the right to impose either money or housing. And to impose sanctions at least for a single refusal of a person from the living quarters imposed on him.

However, let us turn to the problems of servicemen waiting for apartments. Today we can definitely say that in December 2012, Sergei Shoigu did the right thing, frankly warning the Supreme Commander about the impossibility of the military department in time to fulfill his decree. So it happened. On the true reasons for the failure of the deadlines set by presidential decree, officials of the Ministry of Defense are trying to keep quiet. A number of experts claim that they failed because of the housing policy of ex-defense minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who, allegedly trying to save money, bought and built apartments with violations of the RF Urban Planning Code, without infrastructure and taking into account the legal rights of servicemen to choose a place of residence, which led to completely legitimate their refusals to move into dwellings with poor construction quality, and often with a lack of social infrastructure. As a result of erroneous management decisions, 59,6 thousand “unfinished and located in unfit for life” apartments remained uninhabited, for the maintenance of which the military department is forced to incur additional expenses.

Unnecessary housing

Take for example the Moscow neighborhood Molzhaninovo, which appeared at the behest of ex-minister Anatoly Serdyukov and the decision of the Office of State Architectural and Construction Supervision of the Russian Ministry of Defense without the permission of local authorities to build in the Podrezkovo industrial zone, where the construction of residential premises is expressly prohibited by the Town Planning Code of Russia. There are no social, cultural, and sports facilities in the neighborhood, and the military prosecutor’s office of the garrison revealed various violations during the construction phase. But officials of the Ministry of Defense, apparently, had other approaches. Therefore, there is nothing surprising in the fact that due to the ambiguity of the legal status of the premises, the lack of infrastructure and control over the quality of construction, as well as the construction of housing in the airport zone, many military personnel refuse to provide the apartments provided here. And those who agreed and signed social renting or property agreements cannot enter their apartments for more than half a year due to the lack of permission to move in.

It is known that in case of concluding a contract of social hiring (property), a soldier will be discharged into the reserve and, accordingly, will legally require the release of service housing. Where should he live? This issue of officials worries the least, they have their own headache: how to quickly report on the number of “managers” who have been transferred to the reserve. And they, such nasty, refuse from apartments in the capital itself and thereby spoil all reporting. Why not offer the servicemen housing that is already available to the department in the well-developed districts of the capital, or “loosen up” the so-called “listener fund”? There is no answer to this question.

Instead of a comprehensive and systematic work, an individual approach to each waiting list, the desire to find an acceptable solution for both parties, the staff of JO are trying to shift the problems from a sore head to a healthy one. They convince the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and the general public that low-quality apartments “in the open field”, built in places for which the military have never written reports, are poorly populated because of the waiting people themselves. They, you see, "are not satisfied with the floor, insolation, the north side slamming the door." Of course, among the servicemen there are too picky characters, but they do not do the weather. In this case, it would be appropriate to mention the adage about one black sheep, spoiling the whole herd. However, in JO and other departments they prefer to cut everything with the same comb. The queues, in turn, accuse employees of the Department of Housing in the absence of a transparent queue for residential premises and concealing objective information about the housing to be distributed. It should be recalled here that the right of citizens to information is one of the most important political and personal rights of a person and citizen and is guaranteed by the Constitution of the Russian Federation.

DIALOGUE ATTEMPT

For the sake of objectivity, it should be said that attempts to establish a dialogue with the public "on the housing issue" were made by the team of Sergei Shoigu. 20 February 2013 was a year of large-scale public hearings on housing issues for military personnel with the participation of two deputy defense ministers, Nikolai Pankov and Ruslan Tsalikov. Ruslan Tsalikov, Deputy Minister of Defense, and Sergei Pirogov, the new head of the JO, actively spoke in the media. Hearings at the October 1 Public Chamber The 2013 of the year was posted on the official website of the Public Chamber. Representatives of the public - the waiting list officers began to attend the meetings of the working group of the Ministry of Defense on housing for military personnel. However, gradually, officials of the Ministry of Defense, responsible for housing, “turned” public discourse on this issue and began to hold events in a narrower circle. The heads of the relevant departments of the ministry, without valid excuse, began to ignore the meetings of the working group or to come unprepared to the answers to the questions they had previously given them. The already meager stream of information on housing has almost completely dried up. Moreover, at the end of October, for the unknown reasons, the most active members of the working group were blocked with passes to enter the department building, and they could not participate in a number of meetings. Maybe the Defense Ministry leadership will be able to explain to the individual negligent officials the need and importance of a dialogue with the broad masses of military personnel, will be able to convey to them the idea that his policy of openness on critical social issues is not campaigning, but a long-term strategy.

Despite some positive developments, today it can be stated that the need of servicemen of the waiting list for complete and objective information remained unmet because it was submitted selectively and incompletely. For example, from a meeting of the working group that took place on 18 in July of 2013, it became known about the planned dates and number of apartments for transmission in August and December of the current year “from builders to the Ministry of Defense for distribution” to one of the addresses in south-west Moscow. People were delighted. August has come - and silence. In September, after the next meeting of the working group, the waiting list was informed about the readiness of apartments for settlement in November-December. But so far there is no information about the distribution of apartments.

INFORMATION INFORMATION RESOURCE

The page “Housing for servicemen” on the official website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation does not add clarity. Referring to the active link “List of objects of the permanent housing stock of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, planned for distribution to military personnel in October 2013 of the year”, we count 27 subjects of the Federation in which housing for the military is being built. Along the way, we note that Moscow and St. Petersburg are not on this list. Let's open the Moscow region, which Sergey Pirogov was one of the first at the hearing. And what do we see? Only addresses and space ranges of free 2- and 3-room apartments in Balashikha, Voskresensk, Yegoryevsk and Serpukhov. There is no information on those named by the head of the department Podolsk and Mytishchi. About new buildings in Novorossiysk, Krasnodar Territory - no more information.

The site does not have information on how many apartments are distributed in October, which apartments will be distributed in the current month and where. Why? The answer to get a "mere mortal" is very difficult - first try to call Joe, and if you call him, no one guarantees a competent answer. But after all, the page “Housing for servicemen” can be the platform that will allow to satisfy information needs and thereby save JO employees from calls from irritated waiting lists. But, as we see, this page of the official Internet resource does not allow the soldier to realize the right to receive information affecting their constitutional right to freely choose their place of residence (clause 1. Art. 27 of the RF Constitution).

Of course, if desired, it was possible to fill the page with information on a wide range of housing problems. But if that is not available and the legislation does not hang with the sword of Damocles, then you can especially not try. Indeed, in most federal laws aimed at regulating information relations, there are no rules obliging state authorities to ensure access to every citizen to publicly available information resources they form. Thus, as long as the lawmakers do not oblige, it will be difficult to get the Ministry of Defense to place on its information resource complete and reliable information about the provision of housing for military personnel. In this case, the servicemen will think: if the information is hidden from them, it means either they don’t want to advertise their poor quality work, or they are engaged in fraud. Both equally harm the image of the military department.

And finally, as follows from the conclusion of the Accounts Chamber on the draft amendments to the federal budget for 2013 and the planned period 2014 – 2015, over the 9 months of 2013, the Ministry of Defense spent 7,4% on the construction of housing. The question arises: are the officials of the Ministry of Defense going to fulfill the presidential decree No. 604?
Author:
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/
37 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Egoza
    Egoza 15 November 2013 10: 42 New
    +9
    It’s time to put the officials in their place. It is tough to set deadlines for the execution of decrees and ask for their implementation. Dialogs will not help.
    1. APES
      APES 15 November 2013 11: 13 New
      +7
      Quote: Egoza
      It's time for officials


      The question is who will do this?

      Those who can do this are not allowed into power, and they are more afraid of them than anyone else.
    2. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 November 2013 13: 07 New
      +1
      Yeah they put.

      Former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov became the head of the Federal Research and Testing Center for Engineering (FIITsM). About this RBC said his lawyer Konstantin Rivkin

      According to him, A. Serdyukov has been in his new post since November 1. He has already taken up his duties.

      As noted by K. Rivkin, FIITsM is part of one of the holdings of the state corporation "Rostec".

      Anatoly Serdyukov lost his position as Minister of Defense after major thefts in his department were revealed. It turned out that the Oboronservis company, headed by a close friend of the minister, Yevgeny Vasiliev, was selling military facilities to the detriment of the ministry. The department's losses amounted to about 3 billion rubles.

      In the course of further investigation, numerous abuses in the Ministry of Defense were also revealed, including those related to the improvement of the Zhitnoye elite base.

      The media repeatedly received information that the initiation of a criminal case against A. Serdyukov was settled, but in reality the former minister was never considered a defendant, and came to interrogations only as a witness.

      E. Vasilieva, whom A. Serdyukov visited in her elite apartment in the center of Moscow, is still under house arrest, while retaining the right to annual walks in the city.

      Read more: http://top.rbc.ru/politics/15/11/2013/888948.shtml

      http://lenta.ru/news/2013/11/15/serdukov/
      1. APES
        APES 15 November 2013 13: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: klimpopov
        Yeah they put.


        What do you want?
        all these "games" against corruption are like "games" in same-sex families "
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kris
      kris 15 November 2013 13: 51 New
      0
      Quote: Egoza
      It’s time to put the officials in their place. It is tough to set deadlines for the execution of decrees and ask for their implementation. Dialogs will not help.

      the raven will not peck out the crow.
      whoever appoints must answer.
      paraphrasing a phrase from a famous movie: "WHO IS GIVING HIM. П(pendulum)Utin.
    4. alone
      alone 15 November 2013 20: 32 New
      +1
      a quick reference for young politicians.
      1) you can promise anything.

      I think the rest will be offtopic)
    5. APASUS
      APASUS 15 November 2013 20: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Egoza
      It’s time to put the officials in their place. It is tough to set deadlines for the execution of decrees and ask for their implementation. Dialogs will not help

      It’s time to make the system transparent and less multi-stage. A soldier must get a certificate for an apartment and the whole turn could be viewed on the Internet. There is nothing to build mansions under the guise of soldier’s apartments, and then it’s painful to find a way out of the fact that according to the charter the lieutenant isn’t supposed to. not to build it is not clear what, for money MO!
      Ministry of Defense - must deal with Defense!
  2. svp67
    svp67 15 November 2013 10: 45 New
    +8
    Without a solution, RIGHT and JUST, "Serdyukov's question", many other, so to speak "bureaucratic problems" will not be resolved ... They are NOTHING, and most importantly, they are not particularly afraid of ANYONE ...
    1. smile
      smile 15 November 2013 14: 08 New
      +3
      svp67
      In fact, "bureaucratic problems" can be solved without Serdyukov - I think he is far from the most significant thief in our country (may I be forgiven for expressing my opinion about his honesty before the court decision, even though it is illegal :)))).
      But it is precisely his figure that is currently the most striking, so to speak.
      And the landing of Serdyukov is a matter of principle, a litmus test that will demonstrate to everyone, it’s a boom, we’re fundamentally imprisoning corrupt officials, but not a boom. Will we have "all animals are equal", or, all the same, "some will be more equal." :)))
      To be honest, I don’t understand what Putin is thinking.

      Although, on the other hand, to act as I would have done, I would have imprisoned him, regardless of what the investigation dug up, also badly, this would undermine the rule of law and be pure populism .... but at least for the period of the investigation it could definitely be closed ... In general, the head is spinning, and so badly and otherwise badly ... :)))
  3. Mercenary
    Mercenary 15 November 2013 10: 56 New
    +3
    got these bureaucrats or are they waiting for 2017 on November 7-8? wait and then they will not save either real estate over the hill or foreign accounts. 100th anniversary of the mess.
  4. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 15 November 2013 10: 57 New
    +7
    They do not just "hinder the execution of the decree." They laid down on him with the device. And this means that they lied with the same device on the president himself ...
    However, what is actually surprising? .. What is the president, however, and so do his decrees ... They would try to throw orders of Andropov like this for example. About Stalin, I generally keep quiet ...
  5. Misantrop
    Misantrop 15 November 2013 10: 58 New
    +7
    Quote: svp67
    They are NOTHING, and most importantly, they are NOT particularly afraid of ANYTHING ...

    Why should they be afraid while they are confident in their impunity? request
  6. Oleg56.ru
    Oleg56.ru 15 November 2013 11: 08 New
    +8
    I've been waiting for an apartment since 2010. Every year they promise "By the end of 2010, 11, 12, 13 you will receive 100%." All balabolas, including Medvedev and Putin. Now even though the "culprit" has been found - Serdyukov, there is someone to blame. Will Shoigu be next?
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop 15 November 2013 11: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: Oleg56.ru
      Since 2010, I'm waiting for an apartment.
      Since 1993, he waited 16 years. And then ... they just threw them out of the line without giving any reason. I didn’t download the rights, because over all these years the line did not move at all (only at the expense of the dead, without waiting) and there are no prospects for improving the situation ... request
      1. smile
        smile 15 November 2013 14: 20 New
        +2
        Misantrop
        And in which region? And why? Do you have any housing in general? Since, as I understand it, you are a retirement, what prevents you from going to court? I seriously ask, without any sub-flavors. I would have long lifted high to heaven (or rather, my wife, mom and colleagues would have forced me to do that :)))) - if earlier it was useless, then now it can be quite productive.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 15 November 2013 17: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: smile
          And in which region? And why?
          Crimea, Simferopol. You can go to court, and it’s not difficult to win. That's just to live in this court decision instead of an apartment sucks. Here, there are enough apartmentless Ukrainian retirees, so the retirees of the USSR Armed Forces and why the heck didn’t fall off anyone ... Yes, and the provision of active servicemen of Ukraine is not much better, they hobble over rented housing, spending almost the entire gigantic salary on it ... request My father is no longer there, while demobilizing, he still managed to get an apartment, so I don’t get to other people's corners. And to raise high to heaven without a real chance to get at least something as a result ... why the hell do I need it? I’m already decommissioned with a neurosis, the last remnants of health in these official offices will fly away ... sad
          1. smile
            smile 15 November 2013 21: 03 New
            0
            Misantrop
            Yeah. Then it is clear. It flew out of my head that you live in Ukraine. But this is better with us. The truth is not so long ago, and not to say that quite well, there are enough problems, but still .... It used to be the same .....
            Being ... is all I can say.
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 15 November 2013 12: 24 New
      +3
      Again, they are trying to blame everything on some ephemeral "officials from the Ministry of Defense", on Serdyukov, just to smear Vovchik, he is good here, it is officials-bureaucrats who do dirty tricks, slow down and plunder everything. I can say that all these "presidential decrees" that were "failed by officials" were initially not feasible within the time frame that he declared, and were purely populist in nature.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. smile
      smile 15 November 2013 14: 14 New
      +1
      Oleg56.ru
      And in which region? In our Kaliningrad region, this is pretty fast right now. In the FSB, it’s generally whistling - a maximum of six months from the moment of obtaining the right, and usually three months.
      And to the court? Or do not want to spoil the relationship?
      1. alone
        alone 15 November 2013 20: 31 New
        +2
        I remember during the USSR that the hunchback promised every family an apartment by the year 2000. so do not be surprised. this is just a trend.
        1. smile
          smile 15 November 2013 21: 09 New
          +2
          alone
          I remember all this very well, as well as the "Food Program" (you have to invent such a name). And for some reason, I know very well how the servicemen roamed around the hostels for decades in Soviet times. how servicemen received apartments for the period from the beginning of the withdrawal of our troops from everywhere, and throwing them out, for example, in tents in Mulino, and up to the present.
          So, I'm not surprised, I just say that now it is much better with this ... especially if you attach a bit of persistence.
          1. alone
            alone 15 November 2013 22: 49 New
            +1
            and I’m not going to argue about this Vladimir hi It’s just a shame for people. 100% these people served with honor for their state. But if they were thieves, they would have been sitting in luxury villas for a long time
            1. smile
              smile 15 November 2013 23: 11 New
              0
              alone
              Well, and here I can only shrug my arms and die hard ... not just insulting, but rage. For example, for those like our colleague Misanthrope, who gave youth and health to serving their country. All ... further obscene.
  7. lex fim
    lex fim 15 November 2013 11: 14 New
    +5
    While money is in the accounts, they bring dividends to specific people. They are easy to find and punish. And there is no one to search for. And this vicious circle is so simple not to break even Putin. For Putin is one, and their legion is not alone. And for the most part ours- Russian uncles. So do not blame the mirror.
    1. Mareman Vasilich
      Mareman Vasilich 15 November 2013 11: 22 New
      +4
      Has anyone already canceled the principle "The fish rots from the head"
  8. Mareman Vasilich
    Mareman Vasilich 15 November 2013 11: 21 New
    +2
    To solve such issues, volitional actions are needed. What is happening now, I think everyone is clear.
  9. Salavatsky Ministry of Emergency Situations
    Salavatsky Ministry of Emergency Situations 15 November 2013 11: 44 New
    +5
    An uncle Stalin is urgently needed to put the question as follows: "Vano Petrovich, I instruct you to choose: either by the end of 2014 to provide the military with apartments, or by the end of 2030 to provide the construction site in Kolyma with your own, you know, example."
    That would be the case, but now ... Officials laid down, put and will put devices of various virtues at all without parsing.
  10. Vasily Ivanov
    Vasily Ivanov 15 November 2013 11: 46 New
    +5
    there is a typo in the text - instead of the word "house" it is necessary to read "crook" ...
    and the new generation of the military was brought up properly ...
  11. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 15 November 2013 12: 03 New
    +2
    <<< they (the deadlines for providing servicemen with housing) failed because of the housing policy of the ex-Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov, who, allegedly trying to save money, bought and built apartments in violation of the Urban Planning Code of the Russian Federation, without infrastructure and taking into account the legal rights of servicemen to choose place of residence, As a result of erroneous management decisions, 59,6 thousand "unfinished and unsuitable for living areas" apartments remained unoccupied, for the maintenance of which the military department is forced to bear additional costs >>>
    Well, and it seems that the "effective manager" P..Rdyukov and his accomplices will get away with it! Against the background of other "achievements" of this figure, so large-scale that the investigation still cannot come to a conclusion, the enormous funds allocated for solving the housing problem (what to do now with these 59,6 thousand apartments) are probably not at all will receive the attention of the punishing authorities! So, a trifle!
  12. Galinanp
    Galinanp 15 November 2013 12: 12 New
    +2
    Direct sabotage from the prime minister to the smallest bureaucrats. It is urgent to break this whole system. About what I have repeatedly said, the project "1937" has matured. In statements on this topic, in various sources it is said about 2014. Let's see what will happen in Putin's December message, some sources say that a whole block in it will be devoted to the constitution and changes in it.
  13. archi.sailor
    archi.sailor 15 November 2013 12: 25 New
    +6
    It seems to me that next year, and with compensations for the purchase of housing, they will also throw everyone. There is no money for this article in the budget and never will be. And what about after 20 service calendars ????? After all, they’ll throw it, I feel it with my spinal cord, they will throw it ........
  14. Ezhaak
    Ezhaak 15 November 2013 12: 37 New
    +2
    Officials hinder Presidential Decree

    This is done not only with this decree, but with many. As similar to this and with absolutely no relation to this decree. They brake everything that is possible to brake!
    My godson’s father-in-law, too, has been waiting for a new living space in Pskov for several years.
  15. gorku68
    gorku68 15 November 2013 12: 57 New
    0
    What article, who wrote, personal experience or rumors heard about? My personal experience, dismissed, did not hang around the state. I got an apartment in Podolsk a year later ... I spent 25 thousand rubles, privatized. All. Co-workers, some, still, the third, fourth year, they evade, not to name it differently, from different housing options ... Patrons neither service nor work, money is dripping ... everything suits ... What decrees and laws do not accept, how do not execute them or sabotage those who are dissatisfied and unsecured.
  16. Drosselmeyer
    Drosselmeyer 15 November 2013 13: 19 New
    +2
    Again the tsar is good, but the boyars are bad. In Russia, "officials" probably arrive from the moon, and are not appointed by the president and are not directed by the most important "official" - Medvedev.
    By the way, Serdyukov already found a new job:
    "Former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who is a witness in the Oboronservis criminal case, got a job at the state corporation Rostekhnologii," Kommersant reports.
    According to the newspaper, he was appointed Director General of the Federal Research Testing Center for Mechanical Engineering. "
  17. NORILCHANIN
    NORILCHANIN 15 November 2013 14: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Drosselmeyer
    Again the tsar is good, but the boyars are bad. In Russia, "officials" probably arrive from the moon, and are not appointed by the president and are not directed by the most important "official" - Medvedev.
    By the way, Serdyukov already found a new job:
    "Former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who is a witness in the Oboronservis criminal case, got a job at the state corporation Rostekhnologii," Kommersant reports.
    According to the newspaper, he was appointed Director General of the Federal Research Testing Center for Mechanical Engineering. "

    Putin must have gone insane by letting a goat into the garden with cabbage or this is the final experiment. This bastard will sell all the secrets.
  18. krasavchik
    krasavchik 15 November 2013 15: 25 New
    +2
    Putin pledged $ 2 trillion in campaign commitments. In the next 1.5 years, he did everything to keep these promises, including by signing the law on accession to the WTO. I am simply amazed how many naive fools we have who believe in all this blizzard that they hang from TV screens daily.
    cheap populism a la doubling GDP, 25 million jobs, supporting small businesses (apparently increasing taxes for private entrepreneurs, after which 500 thousand private entrepreneurs are closed) and other other things ... but no, it’s only filthy bureaucrats who put sticks on wheels our wise king-father ...
  19. remez
    remez 15 November 2013 19: 21 New
    +1
    Sorry. Answer someone for the teapot. for the military, apartments are issued free of charge or at a reduced percentage?
    1. gorku68
      gorku68 16 November 2013 10: 28 New
      0
      Free, free ... But, serve for several decades, do not have housing at the time of provision and other minor conditions ...
      1. remez
        remez 16 November 2013 12: 26 New
        0
        and what is the average s / n starley?