Military Review

"Give Kiev!". Kiev will be liberated! (Part 1)

69



Lead clouds overhead ... cold Dnepr ... hundreds of thousands of dead.

Today I want to show you photographs taken on Sunday at the reconstruction of the Battle of Kiev on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the event. November 6, 1943 is the day of the liberation of Kiev. I first visited the militaryhistorical reconstruction and say that I liked it - to say nothing. Reconstruction is not a movie and this is not a game of war, it is an opportunity to immerse yourself in the atmosphere of that time, visualize and feel the details.

"Give Kiev!" - This is a reconstruction of the battles that took place in these places, and realistically reflects that tragic time.

During the battle, a large number of heavy weapons, auto, motorcycle and armored vehicles, artillery, aviation and cavalry.

The participants vividly demonstrated the actions of the various units of the opposing armies.

In 2013, 10 marks the “Give Kyiv!” Festival, in honor of which the festival organizing committee decided to hold an event with the reconstruction of forcing a water barrier and subsequent capture and expansion of the springboard.

The venue of the “Give Kyiv!” Festival in 2013 was the Sitnyaki tract in the Desnyansky district of the city of Kiev (near the Troeshchyna railway station).

The script of the festival "Give Kiev!" provided for the reconstruction of the combat operations of the consolidated detachment under the command of the deputy commander of the 71 Infantry Division of Colonel S. Slivin 4-6 in November 1943, which operated in isolation from the main forces of the 38 army leading to the offensive from the Lutezh springboard. Fighting squad was one of the most important elements of an offensive to liberate Kiev in order to create a barrier to enemy reserves, the transfer of which by the Bukrin bridgehead began immediately after the attack of the Soviet troops from the Lutezhsky bridgehead of 3 in November 1943.

From the memoirs of Kirill Semenovich Moskalenko "In the South-West direction, 1943-1945, Memoirs of the Commander"

I have already noted that the 38 th Army, concentrated on the Lutezhsky Platform, at the same time had a consolidated detachment on the left bank of the Dnieper. He defended the line from the mouth of the Desna to the junction with 40-th army in the area of ​​the settlement of Kaylov. The combined detachment in the 126 and 367 rifle regiments of the 71 rifle division, the 127 th and 128 th of the Armenian commanding detachments and the training battalion was led by a detachment of the detainee, a disciple of the 17 To him, I put 2 November on such a task:

"I. Forces, at your disposal, prepare a strike from the disciplines of the group of children’s disciplines in the area of ​​Vit Lithuanian, Pirogovo and shortly cut the road going from the south through Pirogovo to Kiev and not allow the movement to withdraw the movement. city ​​by special order.

2. From the morning of 3.11.43 (time-in addition) with all the parts that are in your submission and to the members of the race, to your children, to your children, to the 237 sd and young lieutenants, to use fire, to use smoke and rockets to hold down the enemy and his marry Dnieper, for which to prepare boats and steam.

3. To work on the personal instructions of the wake. Army commander Batiun. Plan to submit a statement to 20 2.11.43 clock. "{99}

This order reflected one of the most important elements of the plan of the forthcoming attack operation north of Kiev. It was intended to create a gass on the way of enemy reserves, the transfer of which from the side of the Bukrin Platform to the German-fascist command, as we understood, had to start immediately after our bang. And the detachment of Colonel Slivina brilliantly escaped with this task.

On the day of the transfer of the army to the attack, he bound the enemy with fire and demonstrated the forcing of the Dnieper. And on the night of 4 in November, he crossed the river in the area of ​​Kazachiy Island and captured the platform on the means at hand.

In the festival "Give Kiev!" Military history clubs not only from Ukraine, but also from Russia, Belarus, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Israel, Germany, France, the USA, and Poland took part. There are more than 1400 participants.

Words are not needed here, so only photos.





"Give Kiev!". Kiev will be liberated! (Part 1)
































Originator:
http://alexcheban.livejournal.com/172088.html
69 comments
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  1. major071
    major071 11 November 2013 09: 26
    12
    Large-scale and just great! The author is a big plus!
  2. Aubert
    Aubert 11 November 2013 10: 11
    +7
    Cool, very cool!
    1. Skipper
      Skipper 11 November 2013 19: 47
      +2
      Everything is beautiful and clear, but these well-fed office people confuse me hi
      It reminded me of the last feature film on the theme of "war and peace", when companies of beardless conscripts entered the city and everyone was 18 years old laughing
  3. George
    George 11 November 2013 11: 03
    +9
    "In the Name of All Those Who Live, And Who Are No More, And Those Who Will Be Later"
    Super !!! good
  4. Bigriver
    Bigriver 11 November 2013 11: 24
    +1
    ... cold Dnieper ... hundreds of thousands of dead.

    belay
    Is this the number of deaths in the Red Army for the entire 1943th on all fronts or only in the 1st Ukrainian Front for the Kiev offensive operation?
    1. MG42
      MG42 11 November 2013 12: 02
      +5
      Quote: BigRiver
      Is this the number of deaths in the Red Army for the entire 1943th on all fronts or only in the 1st Ukrainian Front for the Kiev offensive operation?

      There was an article on VO in 1943. loss of the Red Army 2,312 million people?

      http://topwar.ru/11444-poteri-sssr-i-germanii-v-vov.html
      1. Bigriver
        Bigriver 11 November 2013 12: 13
        +2
        Quote: MG42
        ... There was an article on VO in 1943. loss of the Red Army 2,312 million people?

        Yes, I’m asking the author not for myself soldier
        And in order for him to think - what did he even say?
        All losses, on all fronts, for all operations - everything has long been counted.
        I will not refer to Krivosheev.
        Here, for example, it is more convenient and clearer:
        http://bdsa.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=8&id=127&Ite
        mid = 162
        KIEV STRATEGIC OFFENSIVE OPERATION November 3-13, 1943
        The number of UV 1 - 671000 people.
        Combat composition: sd - 42, airborne forces - 3, cd- 3, mk- 1, tk-5, sbr - 2, otbr - 4
        The operation lasted 11 days.
        Irrevocability - 6491 people.
        Sanitary - 24078 people.
        Total - 30569 people.
        The average daily is 2779 people.

        "Hundreds of thousands of those killed on the Dnieper" - what is this about?
        1. MG42
          MG42 11 November 2013 12: 37
          +5
          Quote: BigRiver
          Irrevocability - 6491 people.
          Sanitary - 24078 people.
          Total - 30569 people.
          "Hundreds of thousands of those killed on the Dnieper" - what is this about?

          the Germans on the right bank of the Dnieper had a strong defense, many rafts were destroyed by artillery on the Dnieper, so the losses are more than these figures IMHO
          Ch. a strike was delivered from the southern, Bukrinsky bridgehead, an auxiliary one from the north, Lutezh bridgehead. Both operations, however, were not developed, because the pr-k concentrated large forces against the Bukrinsky bridgehead (10 divisions, including 5 tank and motorized forces) and created a solid defense

          What is hidden behind these stingy phrases, units were transferred to the bridgeheads as a diversionary blow and almost everything there was destroyed by the enemy. Remember <Battalions are asking for fire>? ..
          1. VARCHUN
            VARCHUN 11 November 2013 18: 16
            -6
            He didn’t remember anything, he wouldn’t put dry statistics. According to some reports, about 300 thousand men were mobilized to participate in the Kiev offensive operation, of which about 250 thousand died. This happened because these untrained people, who had no experience, knowledge, uniforms or even weapons, were thrown without pity to force the Dnieper, where they had to confront not only enemies, but also the water element. They say that it was then that Marshal Zhukov answered the question of what to equip and what to wear a huge number of Ukrainian newly recruited with, which has already become a legendary phrase: "The more we drown in the Dnieper, the less then we will have to exile to Siberia."
            1. Hudo
              Hudo 11 November 2013 18: 30
              +4
              Quote: Varchun
              According to some reports, about 300 thousand men were mobilized to participate in the Kiev offensive operation, of which about 250 thousand were killed.

              Could it be possible in more detail with what specific data indicating the source of the information, otherwise it somehow comes out solidly.

              Quote: Varchun
              It happened because these untrained people without experience, knowledge, uniforms and even weapons of people were thrown without pity to force the Dnieper, where they had to confront not only enemies, but also the water element

              And it never occurred to you that with an acute shortage of shipping funds (even improvised ones), such statements look ridiculous and implausible.
              Quote: Varchun
              They say that it would be then that Marshal Zhukov answered the question of what to equip and what to wear a huge number of Ukrainian newly recruited with, which has already become a legendary phrase: "The more we drown in the Dnieper, the less then we will have to exile to Siberia."


              Who is specific? !!
              1. bublic82009
                bublic82009 12 November 2013 01: 55
                +3
                Do not engage in polemics with such debaters. their business is crowing. This is the official historical position of the leadership of Ukraine. such as Russian zarbnyks grabbed the poor Ukrainians and threw them into the attack like lambs. and why there is no information? so type they have not had time to take into account anywhere. but the new Ukrainian historians counted everything and gave a figure to the mountain. So lies are driven into people’s brains. and the fact that this is not a historical docking does not concern anyone among the politicians of Ukraine. I am surprised that the million dead Ukrainians on 1 km of the front have not yet been indicated. the worse the number, the more powerful it sounds.
            2. Rider
              Rider 11 November 2013 18: 39
              +4
              Quote: Varchun
              According to some reports ...

              by what?
              Quote: Varchun
              They say

              Quote: Varchun
              as if

              Quote: Varchun
              exactly


              Well FSE on secret documents.
              1. Hudo
                Hudo 11 November 2013 18: 58
                +4
                Quote: Rider
                Well FSE on secret documents.


                Storytellers and gaunomazes clothed themselves on all sides - they called, they say, they did not keep records, they did not put them on allowance, etc. and it is not possible to find everything based on certain anonymous names.
                But one question for you is the tales of the fairy tale-gonomazy, but the question is killer - it was simply obliged to report on the number of those called up on command! For the lack of report on the implementation of the task at that time, one could get a very pale look. And where are these very reports if everything was declassified in the 1990s ???
          2. Bigriver
            Bigriver 12 November 2013 05: 30
            +3
            Quote: MG42
            ... the Germans on the right bank of the Dnieper had a strong defense, many rafts were destroyed by artillery on the Dnieper, so there are more losses than these figures IMHO ...

            You are talking about the operation "Battle for the Dnieper", which preceded the operation to capture Kiev.
            Therefore, I am the author of the publication and ask you to clarify what he meant by the hundreds of thousands of dead.
            These hundreds can be counted if you take 5 (!!!) fronts stretching along the Dnieper (conventional from Rostov-on-Don to Orel), i.e. ALL the Central and South-Western Red Army grouping, and the time period of the battles to determine in three months: from September to December 1943. Then it will include ALL battles and battles for the Dnieper and Kiev: Kremenchug, Nikopol, Kryvyi Rih, Bukrin, Lyutezh, Kiev, and even Fastov with Zhytomyr.
            But, the publication is dedicated to the "Battle of Kiev".
            PS Sorry for boring smile
            1. MG42
              MG42 12 November 2013 21: 48
              +3
              Quote: BigRiver
              But, the publication is dedicated to the "Battle of Kiev".
              PS Sorry for boring

              And the truth is a bit boring .. hi Irrevocability - 6491 people. do you really believe in these numbers, I don’t ..
              Once again, the battle for the Dnieper, where the right bank is steeper than the left, so the defenders have an advantage in height, is an excellent position for artillery and machine guns in the pillboxes .. In the reconstruction, the Dnieper is also tied to the topic so that my train of thought is clear, you say street fighting ..
              As for the <leibstandart> on another branch, you turned to me, there is a German film about his actions in 1943 with a map of actions in Europe against the allies ... but at the end of November he was urgently transferred from Italy, but this division did not sit out in defense, but was used by Hitler to plug breakthroughs and powerful counterattacks ..
    2. zmey_gadukin
      zmey_gadukin 11 November 2013 20: 09
      +1
      Quote: BigRiver
      Is this the number of deaths in the Red Army for the entire 1943th on all fronts or only in the 1st Ukrainian Front for the Kiev offensive operation?

      the author is not a professional historian or even a journalist. The author is a photographer. And the fact that he could be mistaken in the number of deaths is not such a big fault.
      And I want to add from myself that no one will name exact numbers.
      And do not pour links here))
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 11 November 2013 20: 29
        +4
        Quote: zmey_gadukin
        And I want to add from myself that no one will name exact numbers.

        We are not talking about absolute numbers, but turning tens of thousands into millions is too much!

        Quote: zmey_gadukin
        And do not pour links here))


        Ignorance is not an argument, ignorance is not an argument. (B. Spinoza) laughing
        1. zmey_gadukin
          zmey_gadukin 12 November 2013 18: 36
          0
          Quote: Hudo
          tens of thousands to millions is too much!

          and where was that?
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 12 November 2013 19: 02
            0
            Quote: zmey_gadukin
            Quote: Hudo
            tens of thousands to millions is too much!

            and where was that?


            On any Svidomo site oun-upa.org.ua and so on. Where tusyuti, poorly educated Selyuk with mourning rim from manure under the shell of nails, writhing looking for a race similar sucked from a finger so-called before the ripples Shibzda is very popular.
            Here's an example:http://galiciantales.narod.ru/prikaz.htm
  5. Tartary
    Tartary 11 November 2013 11: 37
    +1
    Well, the faces of the "nemchura" ...)))
    It seems that some mumbled youthful Fritz with restless eggs remained in our rear 70 years ago ...)))

    Report - go nuts!
  6. Hort
    Hort 11 November 2013 11: 45
    +2
    hmm .. great!
    Did sailors wear greatcoats? And the American uniform somehow "hurts the eye"
    1. MG42
      MG42 11 November 2013 12: 20
      +4
      Now it’s not uncommon to find ads to buy Soviet military uniforms, awards, chrome boots, etc. all this is used .. The motor boats are straining more directly in the video landing in Omaha, the Dnieper was rafted, try to steer the raft to the modern reconstructor to cross the Dnieper .., it can be seen that this causes problems from the same shore, the more time passes from the Second World War the more fiction, old Soviet films were more truthful than Russian ones ..
    2. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 11 November 2013 14: 53
      +9
      Quote: hort
      hmm .. great!
      Did sailors wear their greatcoats?


      They wore, and wore overcoats and even quilted jackets, and the marine corps altogether changed into general arms uniforms.

      On photo:

      Marines from the detachment of Major Ts. L. Kunikov, shortly before they took part in the landing operation on the night of February 4 1943 and seized the bridgehead south of Novorossiysk, known as the "Small Land". Of these, only three remained alive after landing. The far left is Kirill Dibrov (later he took part in the Kerch landing operation, was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union), the second in the last row - Vladimir Kaida, and Otari Dzhaniani - with a grenade in the center.

      Many thanks to the author.
      1. smile
        smile 11 November 2013 16: 45
        +2
        Karlsonn
        Greetings!
        Excuse me, but for what reason have you demoted yourself? Or have you decided how the Chinese generals will repay a debt to their homeland for 15 days as an ordinary (sorry-senior sergeant)? :)))
      2. Hort
        Hort 12 November 2013 08: 30
        0
        Thanks for the educational program. I'll know)
  7. Hort
    Hort 11 November 2013 11: 45
    -1
    hmm .. great!
    Did sailors wear greatcoats? And the American uniform somehow "hurts the eye"
    1. Lee
      Lee 11 November 2013 17: 34
      0
      It seems to be British, which is also strange.
      1. Astrey
        Astrey 11 November 2013 23: 44
        +3
        Hey Hey! Take it easy!
        Yes, British. But. Now the mainstream of propaganda of the role of the Czechoslovak battalion in the liberation of Ukraine is only declining. This is called a "course towards European integration" (I will wash my fingers after such a dirty trick).
        All the same, the photos captured the events of 2013, truthfully and not very sad.
  8. igordok
    igordok 11 November 2013 11: 59
    +2
    Plus to the author and plus to the reconstruction participants.
  9. atos_kin
    atos_kin 11 November 2013 13: 16
    +2
    Thank you very much to the organizers and participants! It's better, more honest and more useful (and cheaper) than the so-called. film "Stalingrad".
  10. lelikas
    lelikas 11 November 2013 14: 28
    +1
    Well done! Enviously even.
  11. Trevis
    Trevis 11 November 2013 14: 28
    0
    What kind of plane is in the sky? Copy of Messer?
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 11 November 2013 15: 02
      +3
      Quote: Trevis
      What kind of plane is in the sky? Copy of Messer?


      The Yak-52 and Yak-18 aircraft, which performed the roles of Soviet fighters and German Fokke-Wulf FW-190 aircraft, were buzzing in the sky. Unfortunately, in Ukraine there are no original planes from the Second World War that could fly. hi
  12. Trevis
    Trevis 11 November 2013 14: 34
    0
    I live in Kiev, and even there it wasn’t! Eh .. sad
  13. vlad1
    vlad1 11 November 2013 14: 34
    +1
    thanks to the author, and the pads will always do without it
  14. So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 11 November 2013 16: 06
    -16 qualifying.
    1 Soviet soldiers killed for Kiev, Rokossovsky urged Stalin to cross the Dnieper from the Chernobyl side where it was most convenient to cross, but he saluted the capture of Kiev to Zhukov with the words they knew better on the spot. Zhukov is credited with the words: All the same, all the bad traitors, the more they drown in the Dnieper, the less they will have to be sent to Siberia after the war ... Just before the capture of Kiev, 200 people from the newly liberated regions were drafted into the army to take Kiev ...
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 11 November 2013 16: 44
      +8
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      1 200 000 dead Soviet soldiers for Kiev,


      What source of infa? Is it not from Canada that Bandera’s defects were sent with an opportunity?

      Quote: So_o_tozh
      but he gave the "honor" of the capture of Kiev to Zhukov with the words they know better there on the spot.


      Sit down, rating "UNSATISFACTORY".

      "Moscow, comrade To Stalin.

      I report:

      For the immediate defense of Kiev, the enemy concentrated six infantry divisions (68, 75, 82, 88, 223 and 323 p.p.) with reinforcement units - 385 training battalion, 101 and 109 artillery regiments of the reserve of the main command, 1 training mortar regiment of heavy throwing vehicles, 618 anti-tank defense division, 202 assault guns division, 11 and 12 separate assault companies. From the beginning of our attack in the Kiev region, the enemy pulled up 5 and 7 tank divisions (with a total of up to 150-170 tanks) and 20 motorized divisions from the reserve.

      Against the strike group of the 60th Army, the enemy had six infantry divisions (183, 208, 217, 291, 327 and 340 infantry divisions) with reinforcements — 231 artillery regiments and 276 assault divisions of the assault gun reserve of the main command and 4.11.43 brought 8 tank division (80 tanks).

      To protect Kiev from the north, the enemy built three fortified defense lines with a developed system of engineering fortifications. Each defense line had full-profile trenches with communications, anti-tank ditches, wire fences, forest debris and minefields.

      During the fighting for Kiev, the troops of the 1st Ukrainian Front defeated 68, 75, 82, 88, 323, 340, 183, 217 and 327 infantry divisions, 20 motorized rifle and 7 armored divisions, which lost up to 60-70% of the personnel and most of the material parts. In battles, up to 100 tanks were shot down and burned, up to 1300 prisoners were captured. Large trophies were captured - ammunition, weapons and equipment depots, the counting of which continues.

      Vatutin

      5.11.43, 21.40 "


      Why Zhukov G.K. Report to Comrade Stalin I.V. to the commander of the 1st Ukrainian Front, Vatutin N.F. instructed?


      Quote: So_o_tozh
      The words are ascribed to Zhukov: All the same, all the traitors went on, the more they drown in the Dnieper, the less they will have to send to Siberia after the war ...


      Who are these words attributed to? Surnames of witnesses said to the studio!
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      those after the war will have to send less to Siberia ...
      - and sent a lot?

      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Just before the capture of Kiev, 300 000 people from the newly liberated areas were called up for troops to capture Kiev.


      And Zhukov, according to Goebbels followers, personally tied each two-pound weight to his chest.
      Enough pus of speculation and rumor from your head squeeze.
    2. smile
      smile 11 November 2013 16: 50
      +7
      So_o_tozh
      Come on, Zhukov is credited with a lot of things, it would be strange. that some Russophobic publications, including those in Ukraine, or Bandera's "researchers" did not try to register themselves here. Why did you write this here? Do you really believe in such nonsense? :))) If you believe, hide it as a bad disease, they will laugh at the same. :)))
      1. VARCHUN
        VARCHUN 11 November 2013 18: 25
        -11 qualifying.
        I don't care what Zhukov said there or what he reported to his "owner", but the fact that a lot of people died and not even all were found, but in our country this is how it should be it is a FACT. And listen to me again, in Ukraine, not all Bendera , since you do not all have Vlasovites and Shkurovtsy and Krasnovtsy. So why mention it all the time?
        1. Rider
          Rider 11 November 2013 18: 45
          +5
          Quote: Varchun
          I don’t care what Zhukov said there


          if YOU don't care, then why lie?
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 11 November 2013 19: 01
            +2
            Quote: Rider
            Quote: Varchun
            I don’t care what Zhukov said there


            if YOU don't care, then why lie?


            It lies because a tongue without bones is a collapse of Moscow and a complete SSvidomitsky fatal error.
        2. smile
          smile 11 November 2013 19: 43
          +3
          VARCHUN
          Naturally, not everything — should I not know — the grandfather’s younger brother lives in Fastov with a hefty family, in Lubny relatives are all Ukrainians. :))) And everyone has an identical point of view.
          And a lie similar to that cited is very characteristic of Bandera’s people or their ideological allies, other independents or your analogs of our swamp libarastas.
          And I called Banderaites for simplicity - I know that the fascist henchmen had different leaders, and they often quarreled among themselves ... and what does that change? And it doesn’t matter who invented it - lies are lies and this is FACT.
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 11 November 2013 16: 57
      +6
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      1 200 000 of the fallen Soviet soldiers for Kiev


      No need to lie! You actually with what intent distort the numbers? 1 270 000 THESE A SANITARY LOSS, irrevocable totaled 417 000 (and this figure for the Battle of the Dnieper, for Kiev - the irreparable loss of six and a half thousand people).

      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Rokossovsky urged Stalin to cross the Dnieper from the side of Chernobyl where it was most convenient to cross, but he saluted the capture of Kiev to Zhukov with the words they know better there on the spot.


      Type yourself heard?

      Quote: So_o_tozh
      The words are ascribed to Zhukov: All the same, all the traitors went on, the more they drown in the Dnieper, the less they will have to send to Siberia after the war ...


      Yeah, they still attribute the phrase to him that women still give birth. That's just this phrase ascribed to Peter the Great, and sometimes to Ivan the Terrible.

      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Just before the capture of Kiev, 300 000 people from the newly liberated areas were called up for troops to capture Kiev.


      There was such drafted into the Red Army, in 1944 year, Egorov Mikhail Alekseevich. Before that, he was a partisan, served in the army in regimental intelligence, and in Berlin raised a flag over the Reichstag.
      Maybe about how our command of soldiers of cannon fodder considered to tell us in more detail?

  15. Axel
    Axel 11 November 2013 17: 18
    -6
    Quote: So_o_tozh
    1 Soviet soldiers killed for Kiev, Rokossovsky urged Stalin to cross the Dnieper from the Chernobyl side where it was most convenient to cross, but he saluted the capture of Kiev to Zhukov with the words they knew better on the spot. Zhukov is credited with the words: All the same, all the bad traitors, the more they drown in the Dnieper, the less they will have to be sent to Siberia after the war ... Just before the capture of Kiev, 200 people from the newly liberated regions were drafted into the army to take Kiev ...

    Black infantry

    Burn in hell comrade bugs
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 11 November 2013 17: 30
      +5
      I looked up to the moment where the credits appeared "PROVISION - Numbers of witnesses" (PROOF - numerous evidence). I did not look further, because attempts to find the original source lead to one point OBS (one grandmother said) i.e. unsuccessful. Such staged cinema-gauno in large numbers is riveted on grants from improvised materials and Galitsai gloomy delirium on the territory of so-called Ukraine. doplidnikami (at r. "researchers"), which are a kind of subspecies of unicellular expertswhose name is legion.

      In jurisprudence, evidence is understood as information, that is, the result of cognitive activity, whereas in logic, evidence is a justification of truth, that is, action.

      In the sense of logic, proof is a logical operation of substantiating the truth of a statement using facts and related judgments. Using a set of logical techniques, the truth of a proposition is justified on the basis of other true propositions.

      The proof is related to belief, but not identical to it. Evidence should be based on data from science and socio-historical practice, beliefs can be based, for example, on religious faith in the dogma of the church, on prejudice, on the appearance of evidence based on various kinds of sophisms.

      Dear loser! In what sense do you think it is possible to understand the term "proof" mentioned in the libel movie?
  16. vladstro
    vladstro 11 November 2013 17: 48
    +1
    but now all sorts of una and unso are walking in Kiev, and the authorities do not care about the contrary.
    1. VARCHUN
      VARCHUN 11 November 2013 18: 28
      -6
      So write to the authorities? And how do you like this type of Russian march with a Nazi flag in front of a? This is already in your Russia.
  17. So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 11 November 2013 17: 59
    -6
    Most of all just drafted into the ranks of the Red Army died during the crossing of the Dnieper, when people, except the Germans, had to deal with the water element. The main blow to the enemy in the headquarters was decided to inflict by the forces of the 1st Ukrainian Front from the Bukrinsky bridgehead, where the very high and steep right bank of the Dnieper, which was also well fortified by German troops. It was this impregnable bridgehead that the unshielded and unarmed soldiers had to storm.

    The then mobilization and assaults are quite vividly portrayed by the famous Ukrainian front-line writer Anatoly Dimarov: “There were no medical commissions. Cripples and patients were taken to the front. I was already disabled at the age of 20, blind and deaf from shell shock, they still took me. And they drove us to the German machine guns do you know what? With halves of bricks! So the second genocide against the Ukrainians was. We were not dressed up, not armed. They drove us all day in severe frost, and drove to a place that was destroyed to the ground. They gave out those halves of bricks, showed a huge pond, shackled by ice, and said to wait for a signal - missiles. And when it takes off, amicably pour it onto the ice and run on the enemy, who sat on the opposite side behind a strong fence, and ... knock it out from there with half-bricks. And let him think that these are ... grenades. Nobody could turn back, because they showed us well-equipped trenches, in which, every three steps, the Suede men sat with machine guns aimed at our backs. I was saved only by the fact that I already sniffed gunpowder and ran not in the first row, but in the fifth. We ran a hundred meters from that fence, the Germans let us in. Can you imagine, naked ice, nowhere to hide! And how they hit from machine guns with dagger fire! The guys in front of me fell as if mowed, I also fell and lay, and the soldier in front of me was already spinning from the bullets that hit him. All the time he crawled over me ... Then the Germans started firing from mortars, heard of such mines, which they called "croaks"? It falls, hits the ice, does not explode, but jumps up 4-5 meters, then it explodes and the fragments go down. How didn’t they kill me with those fragments? .. And then an explosion - and a black hole into which I fell through. The orderlies picked me up: with a tightly clasped brick in their hands. ”

    An even more terrible picture is described by his colleague Viktor Astafyev, an eyewitness to the forcing of the Dnieper: “The machine guns turned out to be the most terrible. Easy-to-carry quick-firing emkashki with tape for five hundred rounds. All of them were pre-shot and now, as if from narrow necks of water hoses, they were watering the shore, the island, the river, in which a mess of people was boiling.
    Old and young, conscious and unconscious, volunteers and mobilized by military registration and enlistment offices, fines and guards, Russians and non-Russians - they all shouted the same words: “Mom! God! God! " and “Sentry!”, “Help!” ... And the machine guns slashed and slashed, watered with colorful death trickles. Clutching one another, the wounded, and those who had not yet been caught by bullets, went under the water with bundles, the river raged, trembled from human spasms, foaming with red breakers. ”
    The death toll was such that not everyone was even able to be buried humanly: “Corpses with pecked eyes that began to turn limpid in the water, with faces that foamed, as if soaped, were broken by shells, mines, riddled with bullets, densely floated ... Minesweepers who were sent to pull the corpses out of the water and bury them, could not do the job - too many people were killed ... And then the raking of the corpses continued over the river, more and more holes filled up with a human mess, but many, many fell on the bridgehead and they couldn’t find them by the beams, bury them, ”Astafiev wrote.

    So the uncle didn’t come back. Nobody buried him humanly. Units remained alive. And the fact that they told it was scary. Everything that is written above is completely true.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 11 November 2013 18: 23
      +3
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      The then mobilization and assaults are quite vividly portrayed by the famous Ukrainian front-line writer Anatoly Dimarov: “There were no medical commissions. Cripples and patients were taken to the front. I was already disabled at the age of 20, blind and deaf from shell shock, they still took me. And they drove us to the German machine guns do you know what? With halves of bricks!


      "A well-known writer, this is of course an argument! But is there something even more significant, memoirs of German military leaders for example? They would definitely not fail to beat this topic. Did Erich von Manstein write about this for example in his" Lost Victories "?

      P.S. We are talking about full links to the source of information. Materials of Ukrainian newspapers and websites outlining the history of Doslidniks and iksperdof should not be offered.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 11 November 2013 19: 13
        +5
        Quote: So_o_tozh
        With halves of bricks!


        My father fought from the first to the last day, excluding the hospital.
        I believe him more than the "participants with bricks", and "bending over" about KG Zhukov.
        According to him, before the assault on the city they were specially taken to the rear for training.
        They didn’t even send fines to the battlefield with bricks. The tribunal would quickly put such a commander against the wall.
        PS Yesterday I watched a program about a new history textbook. The child of one of the participants is studying either in Denmark or in the Netherlands, where they teach that during the Second World War all of Europe, led by the United States, fought against the communist fascists. Those. against us too. And "won." Both us and the fascists. How! Would you believe this tutorial? Head for what?
    2. bublic82009
      bublic82009 12 November 2013 02: 05
      +3
      and people believe in this nonsense. Astafiev was a great writer, but a great science fiction writer. Was he even there? if was how alive remained? and how did we take the other side of the Dnieper if our soldiers were killed like cattle? in general, someone thinks with his own head when this nonsense reads? and because of all this, these guys with bricks could not raise the arms and surrender to the enemy? What are the machine guns behind? when you go in front, then you approach the captivity and move away from the squadron abroad. this is all nonsense. one spoils everything. 1000 write one, and two are just the truth.
  18. So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 11 November 2013 18: 01
    -4
    For Zhukov, in general, the life of a soldier did not mean anything, the main thing is to achieve a result, at what cost - this is already secondary. He clearly expressed his position on this issue during a meeting with the commander of the Allied forces Eisenhower in 1945, sharing with his colleague the experience of mine clearance: “When we came across a minefield, our infantry attacked it the same way if it weren’t there . The losses that we suffered from anti-personnel mines, we consider equal only to those that would have suffered from machine-gun fire and artillery, if the Germans instead of minefields decided to defend this site with a strong military formation. However, the attacking infantry does not detonate anti-tank mines. And after it penetrates deep into the minefield and creates a bridgehead, sappers come up and make passages through which our military equipment can pass. ” Eisenhower was shocked by this method, because he perfectly understood what awaited the American commander, he showed such ingenuity - shame, condemnation and trial.
    1. vladstro
      vladstro 11 November 2013 18: 08
      +4
      The losses that we suffered from anti-personnel mines, we consider equal only to those that would have suffered from machine-gun fire and artillery, if the Germans instead of minefields decided to defend this site with a strong military formation. However, the attacking infantry does not detonate anti-tank mines. And after it penetrates deep into the minefield and creates a bridgehead, sappers come up and make passages through which our military equipment can pass. ” Eisenhower was shocked by this method, because he perfectly understood what awaited the American commander, he showed such ingenuity - shame, condemnation and trial. Rezunovsko-Svanidze-Gozman's nonsense. Zhukov said that there can be no war without losses, and Stalin would have torn his head off to drive infantry for land mines.
    2. bublic82009
      bublic82009 12 November 2013 02: 07
      +1
      and what do we hide our przyvsko? ashamed to write nonsense here?
      1. So_o_tozh
        So_o_tozh 13 November 2013 15: 45
        0
        Shaw, then you also drove a litter ..
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. VARCHUN
    VARCHUN 11 November 2013 18: 36
    +2
    I completely agree, I will believe eyewitnesses of events rather than propaganda propaganda, and staff rats have always been able to reduce losses and exaggerate enemy forces. Thank you who defended your Homeland, eternal memory and glory to you. love
    1. kaktus
      kaktus 12 November 2013 17: 19
      0
      Coastal vines, high steeps
      And we loved and grew.
      Oh, Dnieper, Dnieper, you are wide, mighty,
      Cranes fly over you.

      You saw the battle, Dnieper, father river,
      We attacked under the mountain ...
      Who died for the Dnieper will live centuries
      Kohl, he fought like a hero.

      The enemy attacked us, we left the Dnieper,
      The mortal battle thundered like a thunderstorm.
      Oh, Dnieper, Dnieper, you flow away
      And your wave is like a tear.

      From your rapids, the thug drinks water
      He will drown in that water!
      The glorious hour has come - we are moving forward
      And see you again.

      Beats the fascist rabble Ukraine-mother
      Partisan along the Dnieper,
      Soon he will come out again to meet his sons,
      Tears will dry in the wind.

      Let the blood of the fascist dogs flow like a river.
      The enemy will not take the Soviet land.
      Like the spring Dnieper, it will sweep away all enemies
      Our army, our people.

      November 1941, XNUMX

      Song History: http://community.livejournal.com/ukraine_russia/5963899.html
  21. Ivan Sirko
    Ivan Sirko 11 November 2013 19: 35
    -1
    Uryakalka are outraged that "Zhukov did not speak, and Manstein did not mention" ... And the testimonies of eyewitness veterans are not accepted, because "Bandera propaganda."
    Read "Vanka-rotny" Shumilin A.I., maybe the brains will brighten up.http: //nik-shumilin.narod.ru/
    1. smile
      smile 11 November 2013 19: 48
      +1
      Ivan Sirko
      The testimonies of veterans refute your nonsense. And they are indignant just the obosers .. when they are caught lying.
    2. Hudo
      Hudo 11 November 2013 20: 04
      +3
      Quote: Ivan Sirko
      Uryakalka are outraged that "Zhukov did not speak, and Manstein did not mention" ... And the testimonies of eyewitness veterans are not accepted, because "Bandera propaganda."
      Read "Vanka-rotny" Shumilin A.I., maybe the brains will brighten up.http: //nik-shumilin.narod.ru/


      More than a weird passage!

      1st) Without diminishing the military and literary merits of A. Shumilin, I draw your attention to the fact that A. Shumilin I did not participate in the events under discussion.
      http://nik-shumilin.narod.ru/r_soap.html
      2nd) Take the binoculars, look through the binoculars at the name of the article under discussion and move or extend the halves of the binoculars until a clear image appears - "Give me Kiev!" Kiev will be liberated!

      3rd) Based on DOCUMENTS, express your opinion.

      P.S. And I beg you, stop screaming Svidomo falsetto, nervously yanking your left eye - the right is ridiculous.
      1. Ivan Sirko
        Ivan Sirko 11 November 2013 22: 38
        0
        For those who sleep without taking off their helmets: Shumilin wrote about the war. Or do you think that Zhukov led in different ways? Near Kiev with the left foot, and under Rzhev with the right?
        PS I have bass stop and you, a moron, however, a boor.
        1. Hudo
          Hudo 11 November 2013 23: 10
          +2
          Quote: Ivan Sirko
          Zhukov led in different ways?


          "You would take off your jacket, citizen boss" (c) troops are controlled (commanded), and led by hands in other areas.

          Quote: Ivan Sirko
          Zhukov led in different ways? Near Kiev with the left foot, and under Rzhev with the right?


          Near Kiev Zhukov NOT "led" - troops of the 1st Ukrainian Front commanded Army General Vatutin N.F.


          Quote: Ivan Sirko
          I have bass


          your passion for choral singing, caused considerable damage to your own education sad


          Quote: Ivan Sirko
          and you, the idiot, however, are a boor.


          You are trying in vain for your flaws in education and trying to compensate for gaps in knowledge by tapping nasty words on the clave — the monkey. Address the gaps in your historical knowledge. hi
          1. Ivan Sirko
            Ivan Sirko 11 November 2013 23: 19
            -4
            He ate, a trollik, and now drink vodka and bayushka.
            1. smile
              smile 12 November 2013 00: 24
              +3
              Ivan Sirko
              You see, dear unsinkable ... our colleague Hudo poked you with the nose that you, to put it mildly, completely lack of knowledge about the operation under discussion (and in general it seems that you didn’t even serve in the Army) are replaced by copious lies or emotions drawn in art books by those who also did not participate in the events.
              Without exception, all documentary sources refute the Svidomo nonsense, based on which you comprehend the world ...
              I dare to assure you, of course, you won’t be able to drown, for well-known reasons :))) but you won’t go far with such sources of information, that's for sure ... :)))

              And your miserable curses can be ignored - they are too primitive, which, as a matter of fact, is peculiar to you ... nonsense, try again, okay? :))))
              1. Ivan Sirko
                Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 19: 57
                0
                My grandfather told me: you can argue with fools and you yourself will become a fool. For you, gentlemen, de Bill, I will make an exception.
                "In conclusion, the Supreme Commander demanded that the troops of the fronts should soon reach the Dnieper. "
                “On the same day, I flew to the area of ​​combat operations of the fronts. There, according to the directive of the Supreme Command Headquarters, our active operations were to continue.

                A little later, on September 6, a directive arrived from Headquarters. The fronts, whose actions I coordinated, were given the task of continuing the offensive with access to the middle reaches of the Dnieper and seizing bridgeheads there. The Voronezh Front under the command of NF Vatutin was to strike at Romny-Priluki-Kiev. Steppe front under the command of I. S. Konev - to advance on the Poltava-Kremenchug direction. "

                The onset of the wards of my wards began to develop extremely slowly
                Memoirs of the "great commander", document, so to speak. This is about who commanded.
                Or supervised?
                Well, another quote from Rokossovsky:“Zhukov GK refused to authorize my proposal to start an artillery counterpreparation after receiving intelligence about the upcoming German offensive, leaving the solution to this issue to me, as the front commander. It was necessary to decide on this measure immediately, since there was no time left for a request from the Headquarters.
                After the start of the operation at 2 hours 20 minutes on July 5, 1943, Zhukov called the Headquarters at about 10 hours, reported the situation to Stalin and asked for permission to leave for Sokolovsky on the Western Front, after which he left. This is how Zhukov G.K.'s stay on the Central Front looked like. During the preparatory period for the operation, he never visited us. "


                So this "general" was in charge or in command?
                I think it was directly dependent on the amount of alcohol consumed.
                1. Rider
                  Rider 12 November 2013 20: 43
                  +1
                  Quote: Ivan Sirko
                  argue with fools, and you yourself will become a fool.

                  you see you already argued

                  and what do the quotes provided by you give?
                  (even if they are true)
                  where the crowds of unarmed Ukrainians abandoned in German positions with half brick (Why not with the whole? Or saving?)
                  Might someone forbade to conduct artillery bombardment or enemy positions?
                  Do you finally think that you give an example?

                  and finally it’s customary to cite references indicating the document, source and page with this quote.
                  Quote: Ivan Sirko
                  I think,

                  but what?
                  1. Ivan Sirko
                    Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 21: 10
                    0
                    For tankers I answer: highlight the PART of the proposal and the staff of Google help you. You’re smart, you’ll figure it out yourself.
                    1. Hudo
                      Hudo 12 November 2013 21: 35
                      0
                      Quote: Ivan Sirko
                      For tankers I answer: highlight the PART of the proposal and the staff of Google help you. You’re smart, you’ll figure it out yourself.


                      What are you babbling about? During the discussion of the posted article, a certain Tak_o_tozh threw in the topic of the call-up of draft contingents in the Left-Bank Ukraine by the field recruiting offices. Due to the factual material, due to its complete absence and the far-fetched nature of the topic itself, I could not confirm what was said, and slipped into the replication of false quotes. Shumilin's book, cited by you as a kind of "argument", has nothing to do with the discussed topic of the liberation of Kiev, with all due respect to its author. But the very fact of reading it by you pleases.
                      Then you pulled the quotes unrelated to each other, trying to prove it is not known what. Complete lack of mastery of military terminology, absolute ignorance of documentary sources of information makes your convulsions especially miserable.
                      Are you healthy, are you able to perceive and analyze what you read?

                      Quote: Ivan Sirko
                      For tankers I answer ...


                      Where does such hostility to tankers come from? The military registration and enlistment office rejected you, and in connection with the issuance of a white ticket to you, did your dream of proudly walking along the unpaved street of your farm in a tank helmet disappear like mazepa from pediculosis? Well, there’s no fault in that draw except you.
                      1. Ivan Sirko
                        Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 22: 16
                        0
                        I am not suitable for tanker growth. tongue Are you a tankman ??? I guessed!
                      2. Hudo
                        Hudo 12 November 2013 22: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Ivan Sirko
                        I am not suitable for tanker growth.


                        Nuuu, this is not critical. Somewhat constrained by the movement of the knees raised flush with shoulder straps, but again, not at all critical.

                        Quote: Ivan Sirko
                        Are you a tankman ??? I guessed!


                        Alas, the growth of 185cm did not allow me to do this.

                        Quote: Ivan Sirko
                        I guessed!


                        Alas again, they did not guess. I am a motorized rifle.
                    2. Ivan Sirko
                      Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 22: 57
                      -1
                      The slang tanker is a brake, a person slowly thinking. lol
                    3. Hudo
                      Hudo 12 November 2013 23: 18
                      +1
                      Quote: Ivan Sirko
                      The slang tanker is a brake, a person slowly thinking.


                      Reality does not match. Of course, it slows down everyone, but not everyone disengages equally quickly.
                      I assure you that the disinhibition process among the crew members of the BM is surprisingly fast, worked out to the smallest detail and very productive.
                      The most violent, nuclear-pumped turbo-hydraulic freezes from the replenishment arrived from the training course very quickly lead to a normal battle, although there are some unique ones.
                    4. Ivan Sirko
                      Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 23: 55
                      -1
                      I gave you a "+", it can be adequate.
                      But why are you so often sausages?
        2. Ivan Sirko
          Ivan Sirko 12 November 2013 21: 06
          0
          drawn in art books by those who also did not participate in events

          God grant you that you would never have such literary experience as Shumilin’s.
  • Cristall
    Cristall 11 November 2013 20: 39
    +5
    Beautiful reconstruction. Thanks for the photo and video.
    As for the "recently declassified proving" - this is a song ... I recently watched this, a young Kievite gave me. There are also many "recently declassified proving" I was stunned how you can carry this blizzard with the Internet at hand?
    One bad thing - they are rubbing it not to our generation - but to the young. So every day he rubs the media (he saw yesterday that he had thought up T 34 in N Tagil already in 1936, at the same time that there was already a factory there! - and it’s okay, so it’s alright, although I was stunned ... 1936 and there is a tank factory 34 ... in any source of something date 1941 .. do not converge)
    and here --- pour a blizzard and many are against these distortions. But - this is done under the guise - "the author's version" but nowhere are there words "what according to the version" - and are categorically declared.
    In general, the dirt from zombies is a serious fooling ... The mentioned young Kievite was very angry with the USSR because of these "proving" ... although the Internet is at hand ...
  • Cristall
    Cristall 11 November 2013 20: 39
    +1
    Beautiful reconstruction. Thanks for the photo and video.
    As for the "recently declassified proving" - this is a song ... I recently watched this, a young Kievite gave me. There are also many "recently declassified proving" I was stunned how you can carry this blizzard with the Internet at hand?
    One bad thing - they are rubbing it not to our generation - but to the young. So every day he rubs the media (he saw yesterday that he had thought up T 34 in N Tagil already in 1936, at the same time that there was already a factory there! - and it’s okay, so it’s alright, although I was stunned ... 1936 and there is a tank factory 34 ... in any source of something date 1941 .. do not converge)
    and here --- pour a blizzard and many are against these distortions. But - this is done under the guise - "the author's version" but nowhere are there words "what according to the version" - and are categorically declared.
    In general, the dirt from zombies is a serious fooling ... The mentioned young Kievite was very angry with the USSR because of these "proving" ... although the Internet is at hand ...
  • Korben
    Korben 11 November 2013 21: 37
    +3
    Thanks to all the volunteer enthusiasts for organizing such an interesting and large-scale reconstruction! Thanks for the memory and respect for the dead!
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 12 November 2013 02: 13
    +2
    I am generally surprised that the leadership of Ukraine went to the mass celebration of the liberation of Ukraine by Soviet troops. in the current situation of Ukraine’s direction to Europe, this is seen as an act of some kind of insanity. for in the current propaganda that stands in Ukraine the Bandera’s people won the war, and the trippy Russians stole this help, drowning the Ukrainians in the blood. apparently the nationalists confused the victims of Babievo Yar with the victims of the assault.
    the current leadership of Ukraine has become so overwhelmed that it sometimes contradicts its own previous words and actions.
    1. So_o_tozh
      So_o_tozh 12 November 2013 13: 35
      0
      I remember and know who liberated Kiev and Ukraine and is grateful to all Soviet soldiers and I think that real patriots will never forget this. The only thing that kills on the spot is that ordinary soldiers who dragged the war on their shoulders were often ignored in awards and sent to slaughter. Why was no one responsible for this?
  • So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 12 November 2013 11: 49
    -1
    Rokossovsky: I visited Chernyakhovsky after his troops liberated Nizhyn. Soldiers and officers experienced an unprecedented rise. They forgot about fatigue and rushed forward. All lived with one dream - to take part in the liberation of the capital of Ukraine. This mood, of course, was also at Chernyakhovsky. All his [226] actions were permeated with the desire to quickly reach Kiev. And he achieved a lot. The troops of the 60th Army, sweeping away the remnants of the defeated enemy divisions on their way, moved rapidly, they were already on the outskirts of the Ukrainian capital.
    What was our disappointment when, in the second half of September, by order of the Headquarters, the demarcation line between the Central and Voronezh fronts was pushed north and Kiev moved into the neighbor’s lane! Chernigov now became our main direction.
    I considered it my duty to call Stalin. He said that he did not understand the reasons for such a change in the demarcation line. He answered briefly: this was done at the insistence of comrades Zhukov and Khrushchev, they are there, they know better. Such an answer did not bring any clarity. But there was no time or special need to specify.
    Farther:
    Before the start of crossing the Dnieper in the village of Trebukhov, a meeting of the Military Council of the Front Headquarters was held. Reminiscences of him were preserved thanks to the officer on special assignments, the commander of the First Ukrainian Front, Mykola Vatutin, Yuri Kovalenko. When the question was decided at this meeting, what to wear and how to arm 300 thousand mobilized recruits, how to prepare them at least a little, teach them how to load a rifle, the future “Marshal of Victory” Georgy Zhukov said: “How what? In what they came, in that they will fight! Do not arm these people with automatic weapons! They have behind them detachments! Give them 300 thousand assault rifles - and nothing will remain of the detachments. They warp all and black to the Germans. The three-ruler of the sample of 1891! ”

    Then the deputy commander of the First Ukrainian Front on the rear, General Kuleshov, said that only 100 thousand trilines were available in the warehouses, and General Konstantin Rokossovsky suggested sending a courier to Moscow to describe the situation in the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander and ask for help with weapons and uniforms. And then Zhukov could not stand it and said: “Why are we, friends, fooling our heads here. Nah ... uniform and arm these Ukrainians? They are all traitors! The more we drown in the Dnieper, the less will have to be exiled to Siberia after the war. ” In response, Rokossovsky said that "this is genocide," and instructed to report such plans to the General Staff. However, Vatutin seized this initiative, saying that he "does not want to spoil relations with Zhukov because of this youth."
    Well sho urarosnatsiki washed Zhukov ???
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 12 November 2013 13: 50
      0
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Reminiscences of him were preserved thanks to the officer on special assignments, the commander of the First Ukrainian Front, Mykola Vatutin, Yuri Kovalenko.


      This is the same survivor who died of the mind, who poisoned the fables that Vatutin is not Vatutin at all, but Ukrainian Vatutia ...

      When the headquarters of the First Ukrainian Front was located in the village of Trebuhovy in October 1943, he ordered me to spend the night with him in the same room. And then I learned from him that he was not Russian Vatutin, but Ukrainian Vatutia, from Kurschini, that his father was dispossessed. When he entered the Poltava Infantry School, one of the teachers openly recommended that if you want to have a great military future, you should become a Russian Vatutin and abandon the Ukrainian Vatuti. And he did it. This helped him to move up the military ladder. This was the main condition for the appointment of the First Ukrainian Front commander, because Marshal Zhukov was against being led by a Ukrainian.

      This is grinding a completely bruised fool patient !!!
      1. Hudo
        Hudo 12 November 2013 13: 55
        +1
        Then the patient Kovalenko falls into a Svidomo trance and broadcasts a story about how the Svidomo hero was almost sent behind enemy lines from General Vatutin to almost Manshtein by the name Shukhevych, to let Shukhevych miss Soviet troops in Poland and thereby begin a new stage in Ukrainian history. It’s a pity that Kovalenko didn’t grow together there, it seems, his leg - and he could not help humanity and Ukraine save the world. Think I'm kidding? Someone else jokes .: “It was on November 6, 1943. A rally on the liberation of the capital from the Nazis lasted on Sofia Square. And I was lying in the ward with a wounded leg. During the offensive, an accidental bullet broke my shin bones. Suddenly, a girl doctor, a captain, came into my ward. Vatutin brought me an officer's order of Bogdan Khmelnitskaya, second degree, attached it to my pajamas, and wished to recover faster, because, they say, a secret mission is important.
        I tensed up: what should I do? Says Vatutin:
        - It is necessary to cross the front line in the Zhytomyr region and in the Rivne region to get to the headquarters of Shukhevych.
        - And who is Shukhevych? - torture him
        - This is the commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army
        “But I heard that the rebels in western Ukraine are commanded by Bandera.”
        “What is Bandera,” snapped Vatutin, “Bandera is a civilian.” He’s hiding somewhere in Europe. And Shukhevych is a military general of the Manstein level. It is not a bunch of bandits, as we are told, but a highly organized, disciplined army.
        I stand with a stick near the bed, the head of the hospital walks along the corridor, and Vatutin walks around the room and says:
        - If by that time I was playing a game with Manstein, now now I have to play a game with Shukhevych. I, as a Ukrainian, with a Ukrainian, as a general and a general, want to meet and talk with him.
        “Mikolo Fedorovich, and what will you talk about with him,” I ask again.
        - Why do we fight each other against the second, shed blood. There are three million soldiers and officers in me, ten times less, probably as much as we drowned in the Dnieper. But out of three million, half of Ukrainians are in me. May he let my troops into Poland. Then a new page of Ukrainian military history will begin.
        But you understand the secrecy of this mission. If the first or second learns about this, then both the May Beetle and me will be removed from the general epaulettes with his head.
        When we began to say goodbye, the head of the front-line hospital, the colonel of the medical service, entered the room. Vatutin to him:
        - Shores of it. Head answer. I have an important task.
        The head of the hospital began to say that the commander didn’t particularly count on me, because I had two bones broken, I might have to amputate my leg.
        “What ?!” exclaimed Vatutin. “I am amputating the chairman!”
        Then the girl, the captain of the medical service, conveyed to me the words of the head of the hospital: “This zatz should be sent to the deep rear with the first echelon. I don’t know how his leg is, but I’m not going to sacrifice my head. ”
        After that, they took me to the station, carried me on a stretcher onto an ambulance train and sent me to Sverdlovsk. "
        1. Rider
          Rider 12 November 2013 14: 25
          0
          Quote: Hudo
          You think I'm joking? Someone else jokes


          zzzaboristy see the grass got grandfather, and maybe Svidomo brain, metastases started.

          But where can I read this?
          Shukhevych is a general at the Manstein level.
          highly organized disciplinary vijsko
          I haven’t neighing like that for a long time.
          1. Hudo
            Hudo 12 November 2013 14: 35
            0
            Quote: Rider
            But where can I read this?


            Comrade, easy! http://ukrgazeta.plus.org.ua/article.php?ida=2133 Here Svidomity refer to hitherto unknown memoirs of Khrushchev, whom no one had ever seen or read.

            But you still do not know the details about this "Yuri Kovalenko" (I'll start taking him in quotes, otherwise he is very caricatured). According to one of the Svidomo journalists who quoted him: he was 1943 years old in 17, and at that age he was a CAPTAIN at the headquarters. Oops! It is a pity that not a field marshal. Oh sorry - the place was taken, because Shukhevych was Manstein ...
    2. Rider
      Rider 12 November 2013 14: 28
      0
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Well sho urarosnatsiki washed Zhukov ???

      baby, at least you brought an exile from where such nonsense nabropal.

      or shared the grass, you see it is tightly sticking.

      wassat
  • So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 12 November 2013 11: 53
    -2
    Read the patriots for broadening horizons-http: //zrada.org/hot/4-oun-upa-vijna/599-osvobozhdenie-kieva-armiej-va
    tutina-podrobnosti-tajny-fakty-pravda-vojny.html

    As I understand it, no one will argue that all of Zhukov’s operations, unlike really talented military leaders like Rokossovsky, Chernyakhovsky, Vatutin, etc. drowned in soldier's blood.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 12 November 2013 12: 32
      +3
      Quote: So_o_tozh
      Read uriapatrioty to broaden your horizons ...

      Broadening your horizons should start with studying the concept of "source of information".
      Since there are "sources" narrowing the horizons.
  • So_o_tozh
    So_o_tozh 14 November 2013 11: 24
    0
    By the link: http://www.belkult.ru/info/st_6_10

    It is surprising that the genealogy of the general became interested in the Ukrainian genealogy L. Voinovich from Lviv. But he went further - it is not known on the basis of what materials the genealogy suddenly claims that Vatutin is a princely family. Like, one of the Tver princes had an eldest son, nicknamed Vatut, and the princes of Vatutin went from him. But Vatutins nobles appeared long before the events described.

    To our great regret, to the pedigree of his great grandfather, Army General Nikolai Fedorovich Vatutin, his grandson Aleksandr Berdzhikhovich did not show, although it turns out he knows his kind well in the Czech line and the history of the Czech Republic ... It seems that a writer who could thoroughly and correctly tell the descendants about our great countryman, commander of the Great Patriotic War, the only commander of the Suvorov school. So, in the six battles won by General N.F. Vatutin in 1943, his troops suffered losses in 47 thousand killed, while the "great" commander General G.K. Zhukov in 1942-43. in six battles, which he never won, he lost 434 thousand killed soldiers and officers (A. Nechaev. Victory, where Vatutin. Podolsk 2005, p. 154-155).
    It should also be mentioned that Army General N.F. Vatutin was one of the few most educated (at that time) generals of the Red Army. Behind him is 14 years of study at schools, colleges and the Military Academy (twice), while the commanders of the Red Army I.S. Konev, G.K. Zhukov, S.K. Timoshenko and many others had mainly primary general education .
    Much was interesting in the life of General N.F. Vatutin, which descendants should know and be proud of. In the meantime, his biography serves as a bargaining chip for those who know little of his life, as, indeed, the true history of the past war. Here is one of the pearls of a brisk journalist, for example: “At forty-three, when the front headquarters was several tens of kilometers from his native Chepukhin, he could not stand it. He got into a battered all-terrain vehicle “Bobby”, and shortly ordered: “Drive to Valuyki”. And the driver “drove” while the road was paved. / ... / “Bobby” had to be dragged almost in his arms ”, etc. etc. (B. Osykov. By the grass of the sun. Belgorod. 2002. p. 78).
    The author should be upset. The front commander did not have "battered" cars! Moreover, some “bobiks” that appeared after the war. As there were no "paved roads" in these parts. Even the artist who designed these books painted the American Willis, not believing the author’s tales. And it is addressed to children!
    The author expresses great appreciation for the help in the work of the genealogy to V. N. Bredikhin.
  • Uchumatchast
    Uchumatchast 19 January 2014 21: 21
    0
    Then the Germans began to shoot from mortars, heard of such mines that they called “croaks?” Falls, hits the ice, does not explode, but jumps up 4-5 meters, then it explodes and the fragments go down. How didn’t they kill me with those fragments?
    No, not heard! belay Only about the "frogs", spring-mines, and they are not mortar.
    Friends, trust the "historian" the King less, he is pure opportunist, he was a Soviet historian, he became anti-Soviet, so he is lying, but the materiel does not teach. No.
    And I participated in this reconstruction, the impression cannot be conveyed ....