Military Review

Hypersonic pruritus, or what can hypersonic aircraft

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Hypersonic pruritus, or what can hypersonic aircraft

Last time, not a single day, you come across messages on hypersound: “The head parts of the missiles maneuver, fly on hypersound and intercontinental range ...” “In Russia, there are tests of a hypersonic ramjet engine!” And so on and so forth.


Before the eyes of a simple man in the street, a fantastic picture immediately arises - hypersonic airplanes take off and hit with their missiles, again on hypersound, intercontinental targets ... And the planes themselves and their scramjet missiles are invisible and not intercepted.


Is it so? We'll see.

Again came across an article "Hypersonic, straight-through, flies" in "Technology - Youth" from 1991 year.

The article is written: “The scramjet or, as they say,“ hypersonic direct flow ”, will allow to fly from Moscow to New York in 2-3 hours, to leave the winged car from atmosphere to space. An aerospace plane will not need either a spreader, as for the Zenger, nor a launch vehicle, as for the shuttles and the Buran, - cargo delivery to orbit will be nearly ten times cheaper. ” The article was written by Yuri Shikhman and Vyacheslav Semenov, researchers of CIAM.

Of course I was well acquainted with both of them, since I participated with them in many works on the subject of the institute. Including on the subject scramjet. Although my main and main part of the work was not relevant, nevertheless, it was necessary and important. I was connected to this work as early as the year 84, still a young specialist and junior researcher. At that time, Reuvim Isaevich Kurziner was still leading over all the work on the subject of “Chill” at CIAM.

An experienced scramjet on the subject of “Cold”, or an 057 product, as part of a hypersonic flying laboratory (GLL) was a research facility whose main task is to demonstrate the possibility of burning an air-fuel mixture at a supersonic flow rate of the working fluid in the combustion chamber circuit. On the ground, it was not possible to simulate all the combustion regimes, so it was decided to investigate this problem in real flight conditions.


An anti-aircraft 5B28 C-200B (SA-5) missile was used as a carrier, propeller and simulator of flight regimes. Instead of the head of which docked GLL with scramjet with a fuel tank and control systems and maintenance.


The first flight of the GLL with the scramjet was performed on November 28 1991. In the first flight test of a scramjet, the maximum number M was 5,8, the engine worked together for 28 s, during the flight it was automatically switched on twice. Thus, for the first time in the world in the conditions of flight testing, the hypersonic ramjet operation was proven ( Engine magazine №6 from 2006 of the year).
Over the 1991-98 years, about 8 launches were made (including throwing). In addition to Russian specialists, the French took part in the research of the experimental scramjet - in 1992 and 1995 under contracts with the National Science Center of France (ONERA), and in 1997 and 1998 - the Americans, under contract with the US National Space Agency (NASA).

So, more than 20 years have passed. What we have?

Are there hypersonic aircraft, that is, flying at hyperspeed (M> 5)? There is!

First, there were the Buran orbital ships and the shuttle.
A Buran returning from orbit, for example, plans about half an hour on a hypersound over a range of about 8000 km from a height of 100 km to 20.
Tactical and technical characteristics of OK "Buran" in descent mode at hypersonic speeds:
• Starting weight - 105 tons
• Distance to landing strip - 8270km
• The speed of the descent trajectory is 7,592 ... 0,520 km / s (27.330-1.872 km / h) approx. 27-1,8Мах
• Range of height of descent - 100… 20 km


We will conduct a "mental experiment." Is it possible to turn this entire landing profile of the “Buran” hypersonic orbital ship back?
You can!
Only for this you need a booster "Energy".

“And if on the GPRD?” The reader will ask. Can. But for this, in order to ensure that the GPRD enters the regime, it will be necessary first to “push” the entire system with something similar to the DDR, i.e. overclocking powder powder. And then bring it up to a circular orbit, “feeding” the engines with stored oxygen or on a pure LRE. As a result, the "savings" on the oxidizer, when using atmospheric oxygen on a scramjet, will be something like 20%. But then there are so many difficulties that God forbid!

And did engineers of this kind "economical systems" using outside air conceive? Yes, as many as you want! Same "Senger" and "Khotol".

And ... modestly say - the early versions of the now world-famous ICBM "Topol". Yes indeed! This whole system was called "Dwarf"

"Dwarf" - a three-stage intercontinental ballistic missile equipped with a straight-flow solid-fuel propulsion engine of the first stage, solid-fuel engines of the second and third stages and an accelerator. The design has been carried out since the beginning of the 60-ies in the machine-building design bureau (Kolomna) under the direction of Boris Shavyrin.

Maximum firing range, km 11000
Starting weight, t 29
Payload mass, kg 470
Rocket length, m 16,14
Number of steps 3

In the future, the designer MIT A.D. Nadiradze, relying on his experience in creating a mobile Tempo OTR, proposed the ICBM project on conventional solid-fuel engines. He was supported by the leadership of the Ministry of Defense Industry, and as a result we received an 45-ton mobile groundwater intercontinental Temp-2С. Further, its modernization and improvement are the Pioneers (RSD) and Topol (ICBM) ... Many see this as cunning (45 tons instead of the promised 29). However, with the "Dwarf" it could turn out the same. Calculation is one thing - quite another practical implementation!

Supersonic intercontinental cruise missile "Storm" ("product 351"), the closest to the required parameters of aircraft with scramjet.

Length, m - 20,396
Wingspan, m - 7,746
Height, m ​​- 6,642
Wing area, m2 - 44,6
Starting weight, kg - 98.280
Mass of the initial marching stage, kg - 33.522
Head Weight, kg - 3403
Cruising speed, km / h - 3300
Flight altitude, km - 18 - 25,5
Range, km - 7830

Purely theoretically, this system, using modern materials, fuels, solid propellants, can be accelerated, probably, up to 5 moves. Only here is the question: will he have super-superiority to existing ICBMs?

The approach time to the target at the maximum range will be approximately 1,5 hours (MBR - 30 minutes).

Some benefits will be - for example, a delay in detection.
The ICBM is detected quite quickly, firstly - the initial torch, and secondly - the large ascending height of the ballistic trajectory (up to 1600km).

Although our last “Topol-M” and “Yarsy” and others of the same family, they say, can fly along other, for example, quasi-styling circular roads (100-200 km), this is why their power supply and mass differ significantly from skinny “Minutemans” optimized for ballistic trajectories.

In connection with this, I recall the stinging enthusiasm of a NASA (or Pentagon) rocket engineer - “de, Russians don't know how to make rockets, they even have more modern and heavier ones than ours, developed by 70's.” Exclamations, however, quickly subsided. Apparently, more qualified comrades explained to him what was the matter ...

So, the main question with hypersonic rocket airplanes is - are they needed, or will we refrain so far?

As we have seen, rockets and orbital ships have long been implemented, though not on a scramjet.

And about the planes ...

For more than 20 years, the military has kept the M <3,5 (SR-71, Sotka, MiG-31). A further increase in speed does not imply additional advantages, all the same, anti-aircraft missiles on solid-fuel engines will get it if they intercept ICBM heads and satellites in the 1st space.

As for civil liners ...

It seems to me that such high-speed aircraft liners were needed before the Internet era. Why, you ask? And because now businessmen-businessmen and officials of various stripes do not need to rush so swiftly across continents-continents: it will not work any faster than electronic signatures and video conferences.

And if, nevertheless, someone is impatient - to see a newborn son or to launch a plan for his birth - you will have to temper agility. And slowly “nauseous”, as my friends say, narcissistic egoists of the BMW brand, an evening horse in the form of a trunk or intercontinental “watermelon” or “Boeing” with an average speed of 900 km / hour, tea, not to that light late ...

But hypersonic engines - scramjet, the main distinguishing feature of which - supersonic outflow of the working fluid through the combustion chamber, has not yet been created.
Maybe someone will succeed. And the developers who were not warned that this was impossible, but they, without knowing it, took and implemented a fantastic project. Such examples история science and technology also knows ...

--------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
* In engine-building there are two types of unstable operation of jet engines - “surge” and “itch” at the entrance. “Itch” is a high-frequency pulsation of air in the area of ​​supercritical operating modes of the engine inlet, perceived as a characteristic itchy sound. In contrast, "surge" - lower frequency oscillations. The cause of the "itch" is the disruption of the flow in the channel behind the neck of the diffuser.
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  1. 1c-inform-city
    1c-inform-city 9 November 2013 09: 55
    +7
    Thanks to the author, some moments were a revelation to me.
    1. Botanologist
      Botanologist 9 November 2013 11: 30
      +6
      It has long been necessary to bring some clarity to the topic of hypersound. And then Rogozin's statements about the tests of hypersonic vehicles are causing confusion in the minds. Especially when he reluctantly refers to the Cold program.
      Thanks to the author, we look forward to continuing.
  2. Stinger
    Stinger 9 November 2013 10: 03
    +6
    Thanks. A very interesting article and was clearly not written by an "effective manager".
    1. Evgenij.
      Evgenij. 10 November 2013 08: 56
      0
      According to qualification standards, the chief engineer-manager of senior management, effective so to speak
  3. patriot2
    patriot2 9 November 2013 10: 14
    +2
    An interesting article, we are waiting for the creation of a scramjet engine by those who "were not warned that this is impossible." I would like this to happen in Russia. smile
  4. scientist
    scientist 9 November 2013 11: 03
    +2
    A very exciting and tragic story, like any development work with a negative result. However, time does not stand still, obviously both Russia and the USA allocate small funding for these studies, at a theoretical and mock level. True, the nature of such systemic hypersonic information releases is not entirely clear.
    1. Rus2012
      9 November 2013 11: 26
      10
      Quote: scientist
      True, the nature of such systemic hypersonic information releases is not entirely clear.


      The scope of the article did not allow me to cite controversial points and frank opinions of some participants in this project.
      But my private opinion and the statements of others in the comments I can more decisivelylaughing

      The prospectiveness / non-prospectiveness of the scramjet engine is actively discussed in the scientific community (and falls out to the public hypertrophically), mainly because many parameters with such an engine remain uncertain. On earth, it is impossible to test them by field modeling. It is both costly and not tangible. Even well-funded projects like X-30 (USA, Rockwell's 80xx) were canceled before experimental models were created.
      Under the Soviet Union, funding was in progress, it stopped with the collapse of the state. But, by this moment they managed to come to the material realization of the research, the "hardware" was ready.
      Then, the Yankees introduced practical results. And they got excited laughing

      By the way, such an interesting moment, if the cooperation with the French went completely on a trusting relationship - with an exchange of opinions, disputes. Then from the Yankees - according to the "valve" system - in one direction. Up to the point that they put their own flight data collection system and practically did not share information with us ...
      Do not forget that they are born marketers.

      Recently, financing has been reopened with us. The directions of further research are also determined. Including the application of new approaches - attempts to intensify gas-dynamic processes in the combustion chamber, by imposing other physical phenomena - laser radiation, electrodynamic processes (microwave) ...
      But you yourself understand that enormous capacities are required. In this case, my boss said - "in order to improve the economy and efficiency, connect the Dnieper to the chamber and you will not need to supply fuel." No laughing - and such a project existed. And practically it was almost realized, this is the project of the "atomic plane" - http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/30/page22.html
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic 9 November 2013 12: 40
        +5
        Quote: Rus2012
        In this case, my boss said - "in order to improve the economy and efficiency, connect the Dnieper to the chamber and you will not need to supply fuel." No laughing - and such a project existed. And practically it was almost realized, this is the project of the "atomic plane" -


        Rus, I did not thank for the article (I didn’t notice the author below) hi ,thank.
        I also heard about the so-called nuclear scramjet engine, where instead of a combustion chamber a nuclear reactor or a heating chamber. He does not need an accelerator in theory, because the NADU can be adapted to work in the "rocket" mode at initial speeds, then, as it accelerates to supersonic but less than the threshold for hyper (5M), it works partially using air and its own fuel (working fluid supply), and at hypersound it switches to normal using only air. It turns out that there is a large mass of POISON, but the uterus is not needed, which is probably more voluminous and heavier according to the MGH. Also, nuclear weapons and potentially have an order of magnitude greater service life than chemical jet engines (including rocket and scramjet engines). Such a hypersonic nuclear air-space aircraft can be cheaper, this is firstly. Secondly, if you create such a nuclear weapon (which is the main difficult task), then the rest will take much less hemorrhoids than when creating an airplane with a conventional GPRVD. Is it interesting to conduct similar work somewhere?
        1. Rus2012
          9 November 2013 12: 55
          +2
          Quote: Ascetic
          Is it interesting to conduct such work somewhere?

          It seems sobering has come ... and such work is carried out only exclusively in relation to the atmosphere, away from the earth.

          It is difficult to say what will happen after the division of Roskosmos and replacement of Popovkin with an "effective car builder" ...
  5. Ascetic
    Ascetic 9 November 2013 11: 14
    10
    So, the main question with hypersonic missile planes is whether they are needed, or will we refrain for now?

    Right now, for me personally, the need for hypersonic controlled flights in the atmosphere
    Hypersonic maneuvering can also be provided on missiles with a turbojet engine, and as for the BB ICBMs, they are by definition referred to as hypersonic ones, because they have speeds up to the first space (about 6,8 km / s) in space (often also confused with hypersound in atmosphere flying in a vacuum), the ballistic trajectory, but at the entrance to the dense layers of the atmosphere, such objects are significantly slowed down and fall at a height of about 10 m / s at altitudes of 20-300 km. So many people believe that maneuvering warheads are such a thing that is separated in the atmosphere from the disengagement platform and, on its own GPRVD, maneuvering in the atmosphere on hypersound hits the object. In fact, this is not the case. In the maneuvering BB in question, the "trump" idea of ​​Solomonov is implemented equip warheads with individual solid propellant rocket engines.(and not liquid as before at UBB) Which is a simpler and cheaper option than, for example, Efremov's "birdie" (winged warhead), although they say that one of the new RCs will implement this idea. Gliding means without engines like Solomonov's with adjustable stabilizers in accordance with the laid down algorithm of the aerodynamic scheme. The highlight of the "Albatross" was the launch trajectory with an entry angle of only a few degrees, for the formation of which the launch vehicle practically did not go beyond the height of 250-300 km. This means that the very fact of the launch could still be recorded, but it is impossible to predict the trajectory and issue target designation for interception. Although this topic was closed as a separate one, a whole range of ideas is being implemented on the modern line of ICBMs. And the first UBB (controlled warhead) appeared in the bowels of the Yuzhnoye design bureau and was implemented on the Voevoda ICBM R-36M2 missile, aka RS-20V, or, according to American indexing, SS-18 "Satan", "Satan" The block had the shape of a sharp cone with a height of about two meters, the lower part of which was an aerodynamic rudder used in the atmospheric section of movement. In space, the block was controlled by engines of the orientation and stabilization system, and liquid carbon dioxide served as the working fluid. The cone contained: a jet propulsion system for attitude control, mechanics of aerodynamic rudders, stabilization units of the center of pressure, steering drives, cylinders with a working fluid, power supplies, on-board computers, matching units, a variety of sensors, gyro units, radar units and its computer, cables, thermonuclear charge and all its automation and equipment. This block and combines the properties of an unmanned spacecraft and a hypersonic unmanned aircraft. All actions both in space and during flight in the atmosphere, this device performs autonomously.
    However, I climbed into the wrong steppe. Based on the foregoing, the need to create some sort of impact GLA or aircraft is not so obvious even in terms of overcoming missile defense, existing ICBMs do just fine with this.
    Purely theoretically, this system, using modern materials, fuels, solid propellant “accelerators” can be accelerated, probably up to 5mah.
    But this is the question - will he have super excellence in relation to existing ICBMs?

    Of course, in terms of fundamental research and future developments, the creation of GLA cannot be stopped in any case, but it is not worth mythologizing the horror of these devices.
    1. velikoros-xnumx
      velikoros-xnumx 9 November 2013 11: 58
      0
      Quote: Ascetic

      Ascetic


      Today, 11: 14

      ↓ New


      So, the main question with hypersonic missile planes is whether they are needed, or will we refrain for now?

      Thanks for the info hi
    2. Onyx
      Onyx 9 November 2013 12: 07
      +6
      Hello Ascetic! Totally agree with you.
      In the maneuvering BB in question, Solomonov's "trump" idea is implemented to equip the warheads with individual solid-propellant rocket engines (and not liquid-propellant ones, as previously at UBB)

      As I understand it, this is the same anti-aircraft missile on the contrary, that is, descending from above and exploding at the surface of the earth. Apparently, such blocks maneuver only in the last, descending section of the trajectory (otherwise there will not be enough fuel), and throughout the ballistic section they fly in a cloud of false targets and any BB maneuver will immediately allow it to be distinguished from this cloud. And in the atmospheric area, the LCs are lagging behind and BBs are already beginning to maneuver. Such a decision, apparently, was applied at Yars and, possibly, at Topol-M. It was written a lot that the Mace has a maneuver. BB, but it turned out to be wrong. Here is what Solomon himself said about this:
      "There is no secret here. When we talk about maneuvering warheads, all these things are recorded by telemetric information and are subject to the accessibility of the observing side in case it observes these launches. The missile uses conventional ballistic warheads, which, after separation from launch vehicles fly in the earth's gravitational field as a freely falling body. the center of mass of the warhead moves along a ballistic trajectory "
      It is also possible that on Yars (on Bulava, for sure) a new principle of warheads breeding was applied, when they are all separated at once after the end of the marching section and are further guided into the trajectory by their own engines and control system, as if "scattering" in different directions.
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic 9 November 2013 12: 22
        +5
        Quote: Onyx
        It is also possible that on Yars (on Bulava, for sure) a new principle of warheads breeding was applied, when they are all separated at once after the end of the marching section and are further guided into the trajectory by their own engines and control system, as if "scattering" in different directions.


        That's right. That's what it is Solomonic solution fellow
      2. Rus2012
        9 November 2013 12: 33
        +6
        Quote: Onyx
        Apparently, such blocks maneuver only in the last, descending section of the trajectory (otherwise there will not be enough fuel), and throughout the entire ballistic section they fly in a cloud of false targets and any BB maneuver will immediately allow it to be distinguished from this cloud. And in the atmospheric area, the LCs are lagging behind and BBs are already beginning to maneuver.


        I will not reveal a secret if I say - in modern ICBMs, pre-targeting is rather carried out by the BB. That is, the task of the carrier is to bring out a bunch of BBs in a given "funnel". Further, the breeding stage or the BB themselves "works". As for fuel, there is a so-called. "monofuel".
        The KSP is also multifunctional: false - "simple, light", and aerodynamically "similar", which, by the way, cannot be distinguished from real ones in any kind of observation.
        1. Onyx
          Onyx 9 November 2013 12: 56
          +3
          Quote: Rus2012
          I won’t tell a secret if I say that in modern ICBMs, targeting is more likely to be carried out by the BB.

          Well, maybe some adjustments are being made on the descending segment before entering the atmosphere and using satellite navigation. I'm talking about the fact that the task that was previously performed by the "bus" after separation from the main stage, each BB performs independently, and not with the help of GLONASS, but with the help of ISN and, possibly, astrocorrection.
          Quote: Rus2012
          As for fuel, there is a so-called. "monofuel".

          And still, you can’t put a lot of such fuel on one warhead. There, in addition to the thermonuclear charge itself, you still need to shove a bunch of everything.
          Quote: Rus2012
          The KSP is also multifunctional: false - "simple, light", and aerodynamically "similar", which, by the way, cannot be distinguished from real ones in any kind of observation.

          If we are talking about maneuvering combat units, then in combination with them, the use of LCs in the atmospheric section makes no sense (unless the LCs themselves maneuver in the same way as BBs).
        2. Ascetic
          Ascetic 9 November 2013 13: 05
          +6
          Quote: Rus2012
          I won’t tell a secret if I say that in modern ICBMs, targeting is more likely to be carried out by the BB.


          It is better not to touch on this topic, otherwise ... "wait. They will come for you." On the first UBB, in particular on the "Voevoda" before entering upper atmosphere The digital computer carries out an orientation program and at the same time the radar on the BB conducts target determination sessions and provides data on the digital computer. Correction takes place with the embedded data (the domanevre is already specifically for the target. And before entering dense atmosphere the radar antenna is shot back and the BB continues to move in the atmospheric section. It turns out that the Voivode’s unit can perform a series of wide maneuvers in the atmosphere, plus aerodynamics allows it to withstand large overloads during such maneuvers.In practice, this means that the UBB is invulnerable - there simply is nothing to bring down with this approach to the target. Therefore, probably the Americans nicknamed this product Satan. Now the blocks are different, smaller, the latest generation of digital computers, gyroscopes, matching equipment, everything else. more compact. If the first experimental unit was generally five-meter dummy, then the Voivode reduced the dimensions to 2m, so a powerful missile was needed to deliver a dozen of such blocks. Now everything is much smaller and more compact, and the rockets themselves have taught to fly not only along a ballistic trajectory.
  6. saag
    saag 9 November 2013 11: 49
    0
    Well, obviously the benefit is the destruction of a specific target without radioactive contamination of the area
  7. Tektor
    Tektor 9 November 2013 12: 25
    +1
    What is the main disadvantage of ICBMs? If "she flew away", then she will not return: goodbye to the carrier and the warheads. Waste resources, you know. Hypersonic vehicles should be able to return to base and land. Ideally, after entering orbit. This means that the fact of the start will not signal the enemy that he is being attacked! And we will be able, without haste, one at a time (informing in advance about the launch of the next spacecraft of the Cosmos series), in orbit to accumulate an impact potential that can still be returned to the base.
    1. Rus2012
      9 November 2013 12: 46
      +2
      Quote: Tektor
      And we can, slowly, one at a time (informing in advance about the launch of the next Cosmos spacecraft), in orbit, accumulate shock potential, which can still be returned to the base.


      This will be a violation of the fundamental Treaty on the non-deployment of strike weapons in space ...
      1. Metlik
        Metlik 9 November 2013 17: 45
        +2
        Quote: Rus2012
        This will be a violation of the fundamental Treaty on the non-deployment of strike weapons in space ...

        America at any time can withdraw from any fundamental treaty, remember about. The threat of an answer, not treaties, restrains the adversary.
        1. Rus2012
          9 November 2013 19: 13
          +4
          Quote: Metlik
          The threat of an answer, not treaties, restrains the enemy.

          In this case, it is not the "threat of response" that holds back, but the consequences that cannot be calculated ...
          For example, if a Yankee withdraws from the Non-Placement Agreement (among other things), it will almost immediately lead to the fact that all nuclear superpowers (Russia, China in the first place) instantly place nuclear HE shells in stationary orbits in space, programmed to fall down by command (or in the absence of certain signals) ...
          The USSR had the so-called. "orbital rockets", the warheads of which were thrown off to the target through a loop. Moreover, they could be launched both through the north and through the south poles ... Of course, they could be programmed and not for the first round ...
          1. postman
            postman 10 November 2013 03: 00
            0
            Quote: Rus2012
            that all nuclear superpowers (Russia, China in the first place) will instantly place nuclear landmines in space in stationary orbits, programmed to break down at the command (or in the absence of certain signals) ...

            ?
            There are no such "landmines" (available)
            Output tools and platforms (same no)
            The very principle of "falling down" is not worked out
            Quote: Rus2012
            The USSR had

            there were a lot of things
            1. Evgenij.
              Evgenij. 10 November 2013 09: 05
              +1
              RN Proton, SOYUZ, Angara, etc.
              there were a lot of things
              And there are a lot of things
              1. postman
                postman 11 November 2013 02: 35
                +1
                Quote: Evgenij.
                RN Proton, SOYUZ, Angara, etc.

                And?
                "Bunch into a puddle"?
                Replay
                Quote: Postman
                there were a lot of things


                Quote: Evgenij.
                And there are a lot of things

                H_E_G_O? Specifically, and what does this bunch have to do with a HE HE, orbital-based?
                Evgenij "shut up, you will pass for a clever, shut up ..."
  8. castle
    castle 9 November 2013 12: 45
    0
    And you can also warn in advance, they say, on such and such a date, such and such a year, in such and such a time we launch the device to Mars. And then, if someone remains alive on Earth, say: "Oh, guys, sorry, on the carrier, something has deteriorated, so it fell." Will they believe and forgive? On Earth, only fools live except you.
  9. saag
    saag 9 November 2013 13: 43
    +1
    And if you set really fantastic tasks, tb. it made sense to think about the problem of obtaining and storing atomic hydrogen, this would be a topic, the moon would be "near" :-)
    1. Evgenij.
      Evgenij. 10 November 2013 09: 06
      -1
      there were a lot of things
      She is not far, Mars is the target
  10. windjoker
    windjoker 9 November 2013 14: 07
    +1
    An interesting article, a lot for me was a revelation ... I think that hypersonic create for prestige, as the first manned space flight good Well, military applications GLA already worked - reconnaissance and point strikes soldier
  11. Onyx
    Onyx 9 November 2013 14: 56
    +2
    I have a question. The development of hypersonic anti-ship missiles (BraMos-2, Zircon, etc.), which should be equipped with a scramjet engine, is currently underway. Why is it impossible to make a rocket based on a rocket engine instead of a scramjet? Not just ballistic, as the Chinese do, but controlled along the entire stretch of the trajectory. Take, for example, a long-range anti-aircraft missile and adapt it to destroy surface and ground targets.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 9 November 2013 15: 49
      +4
      Quote: Onyx
      Take, for example, a long-range anti-aircraft missile and adapt it to destroy surface and ground targets.


      The fact is that in terms of efficiency at speeds of 2,5 - 5M, it surpasses all other air or jet engines. PVRD surpassed rocket engines in specific thrust by five or more times. For rocket flight speeds 3-5 times higher than the sonic ramjet engine, it was characterized by the lowest fuel consumption per unit of thrust. you need less fuel (only for acceleration), which means you can shove in more payload. for an anti-aircraft missile, a powerful warhead is not needed (a cloud of destructive elements of needles or balls is enough), and for anti-ship missiles, especially a long-range radius (not for boats and frigates), a powerful warhead is needed ( land mine or even nuclear warhead). And due to the use of PRVD, the volume of working fuel is reduced tenfold. Accordingly, the payload can be increased without increasing the dimensions ... Although the same Krug air defense system had missiles with ramjet engines.
      It is simple. Cheap and reliable.
      1-external compression of supersonic air flow
      2- internal compression of a supersonic air stream,
      3-compression subsonic air flow,
      4-cop
      5-narrow nozzle
      6-wide part of the nozzle.
      For example, a typical RCC Mosquito (the Chinese are very fond of redoing it)
      Engine: marching solid propellant ramjet and starting powder accelerator.
      Starting weight: 4500 kg.
      Length: 9,745 m.
      Wingspan: 2,10 m.
      Speed:> 2,5 M.
      Range: 120 km.
      Marching flight height: 20 m.
      Minimum flight height: 7 m.
      Warhead: high-explosive (320 kg) or special (120 ct).
      Carriers: ships, planes.
      1. Onyx
        Onyx 9 November 2013 16: 12
        +2
        Quote: Ascetic
        and for anti-ship missiles all the more distant radius (not for boats and frigates) you need a powerful warhead (landmine or even nuclear warheads)

        Well, if the rocket is hypersonic, then the huge kinetic energy of the rocket’s collision with the ship’s hull will eliminate the need for a powerful warhead. Is not it?
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 9 November 2013 16: 33
          +4
          Quote: Onyx
          Is not it?


          Here you need a landmine and the more the better. Here's an example of RCC Granite with a high-explosive penetrating warhead (red in the picture). By the way, there is no ramjet on Granite. If there is a blank and it will make a hole in one compartment (it can even penetrate) and buoyancy with survivability will not suffer much, but a land mine and more powerful will demolish at least two bulkheads inside and damage three compartments and not one. This is probably what happens in practice.



          At that time, when the USA, France and a number of other countries developed and mastered the production of the first subsonic anti-ship missiles, in the Soviet Union from the mid-70s. work has already been successfully carried out to create guided missiles with a higher level of flight performance. We are talking about the Moskit-E ship complex (3M-80E missile with a flight speed of about 800 m / s), as well as the X-31A aviation anti-ship high-speed missile (with a flight speed of 1000 m / s). Due to the high speed, the time spent by the missiles in the area of ​​the enemy’s missile defense systems is reduced and this ensures a high level of their survival. Experts note that the creators of these samples implemented the present technological breakthrough which became possible mainly due to the introduction of a new type of combined propulsion system, including a ramjet engine and an accelerating solid propellant block.

          link
          1. Onyx
            Onyx 9 November 2013 16: 47
            +1
            Quote: Ascetic
            You need a landmine here, and the more the better. Here's an example of a Granit High-explosive warhead

            But Granite is NOT a hypersonic missile. Accordingly, it has less kinetic impact energy and requires a powerful warhead
            1. Ascetic
              Ascetic 9 November 2013 17: 42
              +3
              Quote: Onyx
              But Granite is NOT a hypersonic missile. Accordingly, it has less kinetic impact energy and requires a powerful warhead


              In general, hypersonic RCC is not present at the moment, except for Zircon or Bramos.
              No less important issue than the creation of technologies, materials and demonstrators, now is the development of another concept - the concept of the combat use of hypersonic weapons systems. It is necessary to answer the question - why do we need such systems, how should they be used, in what forms and methods, what goals are planned to be achieved as a result of application. And the main question is what is the uniqueness of such systems and what tasks can they solve that cannot be solved by existing weapons systems.

              The same Onyx (Yakhont) with SPVRD equipped also penetrating landmine.
    2. Vlad_Mir
      Vlad_Mir 9 November 2013 17: 47
      0
      Iskander also "works" according to this principle. Speaking of a hypersonic missile, we mean a cruise missile flying at a speed of 5 max, at low altitudes (not in the stratosphere).
      1. Onyx
        Onyx 9 November 2013 18: 02
        +1
        Quote: Vlad_Mir
        Iskander also "works" according to this principle. Speaking of a hypersonic missile, we mean a cruise missile flying at a speed of 5 max, at low altitudes (not in the stratosphere).

        Iskander does not "work" according to this principle; his rocket has a different flight profile.
  12. rotor
    rotor 9 November 2013 15: 41
    +1
    But hypersonic engines - scramjet, the main distinguishing feature of which - supersonic outflow of the working fluid through the combustion chamber, has not yet been created.
    Maybe someone will succeed.


    Several tests of the Boeing X-51A missile have already passed, the most successful of which was the launch from the aircraft B-52 in May this year. The rocket reached a height of 18200 meters, where it developed a speed corresponding to Mach number 5,1. The flight lasted for six minutes, during which the rocket flew a distance of 426 kilometers.



    A hypersonic missile capable of flying at a speed of more than Mach 4,5 (about 5,2 thousand kilometers per hour) has already been created in Russia. This, according to RIA Novosti, at the MAKS-2013 air show in Zhukovsky near Moscow, said Boris Obnosov, general director of the Tactical Missile Weapons Corporation. According to him, the new rocket is still capable of performing hypersonic flights only for a few seconds.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. rotor
      rotor 9 November 2013 16: 11
      +1
      On November 15, 2004, the X-43A set a new world speed record for aircraft of this class, flying 800 kilometers at a speed of M = 10 (this is 11000 km / h).

      1. rotor
        rotor 9 November 2013 16: 34
        0
        The advantage of the X-51A GLA is that instead of the fast-burning, large-volume and expensive liquid hydrogen, conventional hydrocarbon fuel JP-7 is used, and ethylene is used as an ignitor instead of extremely volatile silane. On the X-43A, heat from the combustion chamber is absorbed by walls whose temperature in flight was approaching the melting point; cooling was at its limit. On the X-51A, thanks to the regenerative cooling system, engine operation is possible until the entire fuel supply is exhausted.
      2. Rus2012
        9 November 2013 20: 16
        +1
        Quote: rotor
        X-43A set a new world speed record for aircraft of this class, flying 800 kilometers at a speed of M = 10 (this is 11000 km / h).

        This is an early prototype of X-51 ...
        Similarly, the X-43 is an unmanned experimental hypersonic aircraft built under the NASA Hyper-X program - the development of an aircraft with a ramjet engine.
        To disperse (output to the required speed and altitude), the Pegasus booster block was used.

        The same, the parameters you specified belong to the Pegasus rocket ...
    3. Rus2012
      9 November 2013 19: 25
      0
      Quote: rotor
      Several tests of the Boeing X-51A missile have already passed, the most successful of which was the launch from the aircraft B-52 in May this year. The rocket reached a height of 18200 meters, where it developed a speed corresponding to Mach number 5,1. The flight lasted for six minutes, during which the rocket flew a distance of 426 kilometers.

      Dear colleague, this is also just a "technology demonstrator" (like the GL "Cold", just the results are higher). The practical value of this model is zero. It was also accelerated by the carrier (by the way, these are its characteristics), and not the scramjet itself accelerated reaching the specified parameters.
      There the question is: is there a positive impulse from the scramjet, or is it flying as a passenger ...
      1. Rus2012
        9 November 2013 19: 43
        +3
        X-51A must be launched from a B-52 carrier aircraft at an altitude of approximately 10700 m, then accelerate to 4,5M speed using the solid-fuel engine used for the tactical missile MGM-140 ATACMS. At an altitude of 30 km, the scramjet starts, with which the estimated speed of X-51A should be from 6M to 7M. The start of flight tests of the X-51A is planned for the 2009 year. At least 4 flight tests are expected.
        The purpose of the X-51A program is to demonstrate the possibility of creating a scramjet of scalable dimension, the development of heat-resistant materials, the integration of the airframe and engine, as well as other key technologies necessary for flying in the 4,5 - 6,5 Mach speed range.

        http://www.testpilot.ru/usa/boeing/x/51/index.htm
        1. Rus2012
          9 November 2013 20: 04
          -1
          The Yankees, as always, are true to themselves, shading scaledly lowering the booster and bulging GLF model laughing
          That's how it really looks
          Gross weight - 1600kg
          Mass GLA - 650kg
          1. rotor
            rotor 9 November 2013 22: 47
            0
            It was also dispersed by the carrier (by the way, these are its characteristics), and not the scramjet itself was accelerated by reaching the indicated parameters.


            The scramjet engine works only at hypersonic speeds and therefore it needs an accelerator.

            1. Rus2012
              10 November 2013 01: 06
              +1
              Quote: rotor
              The scramjet engine works only at hypersonic speeds and therefore it needs an accelerator.

              Dear Rotor, if after accelerating and entering hypersound mode, the booster would be discarded, and then the GLF would accelerate itself - THERE WOULD BE PROGRESS!
              In the meantime, the scramjet passenger rides on carriers and its positive impulse is only dreamed of by the developers, believe me ...
              Only in matmodels shows a positive impulse scramjet, physically no one has yet shown it !!! True, there are not confirmed data and the correlation of some data with the calculated ones, but it is necessary to prove and repeatedly show. But there are still problems with this ...
              1. rotor
                rotor 10 November 2013 10: 05
                0
                The accelerator accelerated the apparatus to 4,8 M and brought it to a height of about 18000 m, and then the scramjet accelerated it to 5,1 M and provided access to the marching height of about 24400 m and engine operation for 300 s.

                For the first seconds of operation, the direct-flow tank “drank” a mixture of ethylene and jet fuel JP-7, and then switched to pure JP-7 (aviation kerosene). By the way, SR-7 Blackbird flew on JP-71.
                1. Rus2012
                  10 November 2013 10: 55
                  -1
                  rotor
                  if the scramjet engine had "closed" the fuel tap, the results of the carrier, i.e. booster, would be the same !!!
                  Do not think out what is NOT!

                  For the slow-witted, I explain the last time:
                  At accelerator 4,8М and 18000m altitude modes, fuel supply to the scramjet was switched on. And then the booster accelerated it to 5,1М and provided access to the marching height near 24400м. In this case, combustion was observed in the combustion chamber of the scramjet engine during 300s !!! The scramjet is still traveling as a passenger !!!!
                  Have you ever seen a message regarding the measured ratio of booster thrust and scramjet?
                  This is just a scaled repetition of the "Cold" experience.
                  1. rotor
                    rotor 10 November 2013 11: 57
                    0
                    So what is next booster clocked it up to 5,1 M and provided access to the marching height of about 24400 m. In this case, combustion was observed in the combustion chamber of the scramjet engine for 300 s !!!


                    What are you writing about?

                    All flight tests are conducted at the marine training ground according to the same scheme. An airplane with a GLA rises to a height of about 15 km, where at a speed corresponding to M = 000, uncoupling occurs; after 0.8-4 s, the solid propellant rocket engine starts, and at M about 5 the air flow through the scramjet and fuel heating start. For 3.5-26 s, the accelerator takes GLA to a height of about 28 m and accelerates to M = 18-000. At the command of its own control system, the GLA rotates 4.6 ° in a roll, reaches a positive angle of attack, and after the accelerator is reset (the squibs are triggered) 0.5-2 s flies by inertia. Ethylene supply to the combustion chamber initiates fuel ignition and scramjet operationthat provides access to the marching height of about 24 m (originally assumed to be 400 m) and the marching number M = 30 after a 000 ° reverse flip. The cruise mode of attack does not exceed 6 °, the estimated flight time with a working scramjet is about 180 s, after the fuel has completely burned out, it should be planned in a wide spiral with side maneuvers for about 4 s before falling into the ocean.
                    1. Rus2012
                      10 November 2013 12: 10
                      0
                      Quote: rotor
                      At the command of its own control system, the GLA rotates in a roll at 180 °, reaches a positive angle of attack, and after the accelerator is reset (the squibs fire), 0.5-2 flies by inertia.

                      But show the source that everything was so. And not technology, as it should be ...
                      1. rotor
                        rotor 10 November 2013 12: 20
                        0
                        But how can two consecutive engines simultaneously work on a rocket?

                        Here is a video for the dull.

                      2. Rus2012
                        10 November 2013 12: 27
                        0
                        Quote: rotor
                        But how can two consecutive engines simultaneously work on a rocket?


                        :)))
                        Have you ever seen the engines of the "pulling circuit"?
                        The GLL of the "Cold" theme worked simultaneously with the carrier.

                        Yes, and there is a picture from X-51 ...
                    2. postman
                      postman 11 November 2013 02: 58
                      +1
                      Quote: Rus2012
                      But show the source that everything was so.

                      (The sources are therefore in English- EXPLANATION FOR APPOLON)
                      EVERYWHERE (!) It says that after acceleration, the booster is SEPARATED, the speed is reached by the scramjet + about JP7
                      For the final test, as with previous missions, the X-51A, attached to a modified Atacms missile booster, was launched from a B-52H mother ship over the Pacific. The stack separated from the B-52 and the booster fired as planned before the Atacms burned out and detached, and the scramjet ignited
                      X-51A Waverider Achieves Hypersonic Goal On Final Flight
                      By Guy Norris [email protected]

                      The vehicle left the Air Force Test Center at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., Under the wing of a B-52H Stratofortress aircraft. At 15,000 meters, the vehicle was released, fueled by a solid-rocket booster, and then accelerated to Mach 4.9 in 26 seconds. The vehicle then separated from the booster, the scramjet engine lit and the vehicle accelerated to Mach 5.1 at 18,000 meters.
                      By SpaceNews Staff | May 13th, 2013

                      The X-51A demonstrator was intended to achieve this. Like all ram and scram jets it can't even light up until air is being shoved into its intakes at high speed, so after falling off its B-52 carrier it is initially accelerated by a modified missile-boost rocket which then falls off. Once at ignition speed, the scramjet is lit up initially using volatile ethylene. Then once it is burning hot, it transitions to using JP-7.
                      Al Romig, for Aviation Week
    4. Onyx
      Onyx 10 November 2013 11: 42
      0
      I wonder how they are going to solve the issue of high-precision targeting the GLA target, because it flies in a plasma cloud and the GLONASS / GPS signal does not pass through this cloud?
      1. postman
        postman 11 November 2013 03: 09
        0
        Quote: Onyx
        because it flies in a plasma cloud and the GLONASS / GPS signal does not pass through this cloud?

        1. Where does the plasma come from? (At 5-7 M)
        2. And what is guidance only on GLONASS / GPS?
        Pershing II (MGM-31C) KVO 30 m, Correlation-extreme, on digital maps + radar
        3. The TIMU microcircuit ("timing & inertial measurement unit" - a synchronization inertial-measuring unit) is a set of 6 inertia-measuring sensors (3 gyroscopes and 3 accelerometers) as well as a high-precision clock generator (master clock). Such a set of devices provides all the necessary set of information sufficient to track movements from point A to point B over time, when GPS signal is unavailable.
        All this stuffing is packed in a tiny chip, with a volume of only 10 cubic millimeters:
        1. Onyx
          Onyx 11 November 2013 18: 54
          +1
          Quote: Postman
          1. Where does the plasma come from? (At 5-7 M)

          The hypersonic speed of the object (starting from 5M) is characterized by ionization of the atmosphere during its movement.
          Quote: Postman
          And what is guidance only on GLONASS / GPS?

          No, not only. But I asked about high-precision guidance (KVO - 1-2 m).
          And this is impossible without satellite navigation, as far as I know.
          1. postman
            postman 11 November 2013 21: 20
            0
            Quote: Onyx
            (starting from 5M) is characterized by ionization of the atmosphere during its movement.

            With which fright IS THE ATMOSPHERE ionized?
            The dependence of the skin temperature on the Mach number (flight altitude 11-25 km)
            5310 km / h (5M) Braking temperature, К= 1300,
            complete deceleration of the flow occurs only at the so-called critical points located on the protruding parts of the aircraft
            on 5M plasma you will not find, in practice, except for weakly ionized (as it is in the fire)
            Hot plasma (ne = 99%) the temperature is very high, of the order of 10 to the power of 6 - 10 to the power of 7 K.


            Quote: Onyx
            But I asked about high-precision guidance (KVO - 1-2 m).
            And this is impossible without satellite navigation, as far as I know.

            1.I will upset you and using GPS such accuracy is NOT POSSIBLE (for now)

            The greatest accuracy have UAB laser guided, as well as UAB and SD with correction on the final section of the trajectory(CVO = 3 m)
            Using inertial navigation system with correction according to
            GPS radionavigation system (SRNS) GPS Currently, this method rather complements the previous one in case of adverse weather conditions, since the existing accuracy WTO delivery during correction according to the data from the SRS is up to 12-18 m
            (William B. Scott, Bad Weather No Deterrent For New Long-Range Weapons, Aviation Week & Space Technology, May 3,1999, p. 66-67.)

            2. nothing happens with the GPS signal
            2.1.Maximum fantasy with interference. Big beats at the entrance. Signal detected successfully.
            (photo is not molded)
            2.2. “A new generation digital silencer”, which, having received a part of the GPS signal, remembers it and then repeats it many times. Seller "Aviation conversion". Signal detected successfully.
            (photo is not molded)

            3.Locata's pilot fully integrated NGBPS navigation system has been launched at the White Sands US missile test site.

            The TMC Design officially signed a contract with the Locata Corporation technology integrator by the US Air Force 746th Test Squadron (746 TS), but testing the alternative navigation system is a Pentagon global initiative. According to the US military, it is necessary to create a reliable anti-interference navigation system that will ensure the operation of all relevant military systems, even if GPS is inoperative.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 11 November 2013 21: 36
              +1
              Quote: Postman
              Locata's pilot fully integrated NGBPS navigation system has been launched at the White Sands US missile test site.

              It is based on the reception of signals from ground-based transceivers, so it is not applicable for aiming at a target.
              1. postman
                postman 11 November 2013 23: 00
                0
                Quote: Spade
                It is based on the reception of signals from ground-based transceivers, so it is not applicable for aiming at a target.

                It was an example: without GPS!
                What is not happy?
                Quote: Postman
                The TIMU microcircuit (“timing and inertial measurement unit”) is a set of 6 inertia-measuring sensors (3 gyroscopes and 3 accelerometers) as well as a high-precision clock generator (master clock).

                1. FACE and the use of IDK in the section of intermediate correction of the trajectory of the KBM

                2. Guided ammunition guidance system for laser radiation reflected from the target

                3.OJSC "TsNIIAG" in the service of the army and navy
            2. Rus2012
              11 November 2013 23: 26
              0
              Quote: Postman
              With what fright does the ATMOSPHERE ionize?

              The air itself at the estimated effective altitude of operation of the aircraft with scramjet 20-70km. becomes practically electrically conductive. See the Paschen curve, air at these heights loses its electrical strength.
              Moreover, in terrestrial conditions, ionization is present, as a rule, at altitudes from 15 to 120 km with a maximum in the interval 80 – 40 km.
              Hence the plasma is at least cold ...
              For descent spacecraft, the 40-20km area is considered the beginning of the restoration of radio communications ...
              1. Onyx
                Onyx 12 November 2013 00: 20
                +2
                What can you say about the data on the fall frames of ICBM warheads. It can be seen that they are flying in a plasma cloud
                1. studentmati
                  studentmati 12 November 2013 00: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: Onyx
                  What can you say about the data on the fall frames of ICBM warheads. It can be seen that they are flying in a plasma cloud


                  5 points! good drinks
                2. postman
                  postman 12 November 2013 02: 01
                  0
                  Quote: Onyx
                  What about the drop frame data

                  А what is the height BG at the time of recording this video?
                  In addition, the head itself may have a special aerodynamic shape, for example, in the form of a pointed cone with a figured skirt, to minimize plasma formation and the occurrence of other characteristic features upon entering the atmosphere.
                  ABRV head part Mk-21 ICBM "MX", have a length of 175 cm, a base diameter of 55,3 cm, and the radius of curvature of the nose - only 3,56 cm

                  How the warhead is "dressed" to meet the atmosphere can be seen from Fig. 2.27. Moreover, TZP It has transparency windows for airborne radar to work through a plasma layer. Due to this, the accuracy of hit reaches + 90 m.
                  1. Rus2012
                    12 November 2013 18: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Postman

                    А what is the height BG at the time of recording this video?

                    25 The thousandth moment of the appearance of the trace, i.e. dense layers
                    1. postman
                      postman 13 November 2013 01: 28
                      0
                      Quote: Rus2012
                      25tys moment

                      did not understand 25 thousand this WHAT?
                      Quote: Rus2012
                      those. dense layers

                      ?
                      more specifically?
              2. postman
                postman 12 November 2013 01: 50
                0
                Quote: Rus2012
                The air itself at the estimated effective altitude of operation of the aircraft with scramjet engine 20-70km. becomes practically electrically conductive

                Yes you? Accidentally with the Ionosphere not beguiled?
                But is it connected with: UV radiation of the Sun and cosmic rays

                note: if you accelerate the aircraft to 10m at an altitude of 15 km, according to FIG. Pashen!
                At the edge will be under 6000K: take plasma
                Quote: Rus2012
                See the Paschen curve, air at these heights loses its electrical strength.

                The curvesto be more precise ..
                And where does the ignition potential and plasma? (breakdown voltage depends only on the product of pressure by the interelectrode distance).

                Quote: Rus2012
                Hence the plasma is at least cold ...

                This plasma does not interfere with anything, just as the ionosphere does not interfere with GPS reception
                Quote: Rus2012
                For descent spacecraft, the 40-20km area is considered the beginning of the restoration of radio communications ...

                70km
                ... all types of airborne antennas must fit into the configuration of the aircraft and not have protruding parts, must be protected from aerodynamic heating by radiolucent heat-resistantmaterial
                ... dielectric loss tangent increases by several orders of magnitude in superheated dielectric melt
                ... The approximate estimates of the losses of electromagnetic energy in the plasma shell are given and heated thermal protection of the onboard antenna. It is shown that the named losses can be so great what happens is partial, and sometimes complete shielding of the onboard antenna, which in turn predetermines a decrease in the efficiency of the onboard radio communication systems and limits their intended use.

                Again, all this (listed) cacophony does not have ANYTHING to do with the GPS signal (which comes from 25000km above)
                1. Rus2012
                  12 November 2013 17: 09
                  0
                  Quote: Postman
                  Yes you? Accidentally with the Ionosphere not beguiled?

                  respectable, of course you can confuse anything.

                  But, all the equipment of "Kholod" and not only it is specially tested for electrical strength ...

                  There is a difference in the descent of the spacecraft and the warhead of ICBMs, and this is significant. Therefore, you do not need to dump everything in one pile ...
                  Quote: Postman
                  Moreover, TZP has transparency windows for operation of the airborne radar through a plasma layer. Due to this, hit accuracy reaches + 90 m.

                  In order to reduce the accuracy of your hit to an infinite value, there are many things checked -
                  http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/pub/oborona/oborona.shtml
                  moreover, recently the mines have been actively equipped with them ...
                  1. postman
                    postman 13 November 2013 01: 27
                    0
                    Quote: Rus2012
                    But, all the equipment of "Kholod" and not only it is specially tested for electrical strength ...

                    Fundamentals of Designing Electronic Tools: A Tutorial
                    Pankov L.N., Aslanyants V.R., Dolgov G.F., Evgrafov V.V. Year: 2007 STR180- str186
                    So the same car, in the same manual
                    11.3. Features of operating conditions for automotive equipment

                    Quote: Rus2012
                    There is a difference in the descent of the spacecraft and the warhead of ICBMs, and this is significant.

                    Who is arguing?
                    KA, if not under flooding, is lowered "gently"
                    MS MBR - "fast"

                    Quote: Rus2012
                    To the accuracy of your hit

                    1. It (hit) is not mine
                    2.Read
                    3.Author: Ardashev A. - and who is it?
                    4."Numerous observers noted the effectiveness of Iraqi countermeasures. The typical picture was the flight of the American Tomahawk exactly on the route, but just before the target, the missile made a sharp throw to the side and hit it off target." Causes a smile.
                    5. About GPS jamming, I’m already tired of talking:
                    - cover the object, COUNT POWER
                    - turn on the jammer, I don’t need any GPS
                    6. everything else is the whole article ....
  • Current 72
    Current 72 9 November 2013 16: 55
    +3
    Thanks to the author for the information! Thanks to the forum users for discussing this article, I did not know much, thanks to YOU, I learned a lot. Thank you again !!!
  • dpurpur
    dpurpur 9 November 2013 17: 08
    +1
    Thanks so much for the article.
  • rotor
    rotor 9 November 2013 17: 13
    0
    And about the planes ...

    For more than 20 years, the military has kept the M <3,5 (SR-71, Sotka, MiG-31). Further increase in speed does not imply additional benefits


    But how to fly above all, farthest, faster than all?

    Here Lockheed Martin began designing a hypersonic unmanned aerial vehicle SR-72.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 9 November 2013 19: 22
      +6
      Quote: rotor
      Here Lockheed Martin began designing a hypersonic unmanned aerial vehicle SR-72.


      This thing is similar to the first step of the Spiral - just an accelerator. But the second stage is combat, maybe FOBS, MIRV or ASAT, in fact it "unobtrusive" replacement for the first two stages of ICBMs at the first impact, so as not to find oneself in the IR torch at the start and not to get on the early warning missile radars, leaving the atmosphere. Again, we discussed it in the article about the American BSU. An ICBM can fly in half an hour; this thing can fly in 6M in only a few minutes. even on 6M it is a target - ballistic targets up to 5 km / s are already being hit, and this thing will not be able to maneuver on 6M. In total, there remains a target with a weak AA defense and a leisurely strike at it - this does not require hypersound. It looks like all this is a lie. Then the main task is to make this super-aircraft fly steadily to achieve stable operation of the scramjet engine in the range of "thrust dip" between the maximum speeds of the turbojet engine (up to 3M) and the minimum speeds of the start of the stable operation of the scramjet cycle (about 4M).

    2. Rus2012
      9 November 2013 19: 32
      +6
      Quote: rotor
      Here Lockheed Martin began designing a hypersonic unmanned aerial vehicle SR-72.

      "Let's watch," as they say laughing

      In fact, there is a creepy nuance - for example, if an airplane like F-22 tries to fly through our territory, it will be knocked down without question.
      And if something like SR-72 flies at an altitude of about 100km, then Sorry, it can be thought of as a space object that cannot be shot down.
      Accordingly, such an object spins in Earth orbit, sometimes decreasing below 100km (for example, to 80-60), what will we do?
      Those. a legally executed document is required, which is recognized by the AC, what it can do and what not ...
      It looks like the Yankers want to "play around" in the area of ​​this legally unwritten collision ...
  • Taoist
    Taoist 9 November 2013 19: 32
    +2
    A good article, and most importantly, it contains those moments that hypersonic aircraft generally stumbled upon. Their creation is not a question of technology (the technical ability to accelerate to "hyper" was back in the 70s) another question "what for?"
  • saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 9 November 2013 21: 08
    +1
    I liked the article, thanks to the author.
  • Rus2012
    10 November 2013 11: 56
    0
    And finally. About what was planned after the topic "Cold" ...

    At MAKS 2001 a full-scale scramjet engine for the research hypersonic flying laboratory "Igla" ("Research Hypersonic Flying Vehicle"), developed by TsIAM named after P.I. Baranova.

    During tests of the “Needle”, the scramjet thrust of 14,7 tons should work 50 seconds and ensure maximum speed is achieved. It is a three-module hypersonic ramjet engine with an inlet size of 150x150mm for each module. Work range by flight Mach number from 6 to 14. Liquid hydrogen is used as fuel. The fuel supply system to the combustion chamber is a pylon.



    [/ Center]
    In relation to the best world models: scramjets of a similar type were created by the companies Pratt-Whitney (USA) and MBB (Germany), but with smaller ranges of work according to the flight Mach number (up to Mn = 8 and 7, respectively).
    In 1999, Vyacheslav Semenov, deputy head of the department of hypersonic power plants at TsIAM, estimated that at the current level of funding, Igla would take off in 4-5 years. The program is designed for 10 launches, which cost from 30 to 50 million dollars. CIAM is actively seeking potential investors. Required investment: 10 mln. Potential sales: 75 mln.
    However, the company SNECMA (France), which previously financed CIAM research on the scramjet engine, seems to have stopped participating in the project, having received information of interest to it ...

    The last model show was at MAX2003 ...

    Almost simultaneously, all projects in this area were curtailed - “Senger”, X-43, “Hotol”.
    Only the project with X-51, neither shakily nor rolls on.
    And the latest statements by Rogozin ...

    And the last thing I had my hand in
    1. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 10 November 2013 12: 38
      +1
      Quote: Rus2012
      Almost simultaneously, all projects in this area were curtailed - “Senger”, X-43, “Hotol”.
      Only the project with X-51, neither shakily nor rolls on.
      And the latest statements by Rogozin ...

      And through Skolkovo it is impossible to continue research or Nanochubais, or are they just sawing and rolling back?
      Another agency created some sort of American DARPA which is supervised by Rogozin.
      Rogozin's statement is of course - "The man said, the man did." So let's see who Mr. Rogozin is.
      1. Rus2012
        10 November 2013 13: 05
        +1
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        And through Skolkovo it is impossible to continue research or Nanochubais, or they only cut and roll back? Rogozin's statement is of course, "The man said, the man did."


        Just in my opinion, some work is underway through Skolkovo ...
  • romuchik
    romuchik 10 November 2013 12: 04
    +1
    "Maybe someone will succeed. Moreover, the developers who were not warned that this was impossible, and they, without knowing it, took and implemented a fantastic project. The history of science and technology also knows such examples ..."
    There are many such examples, at least an underwater rocket))
    So space planes without steps are needed and they will be! And I hope Russia will be the first here! )))
  • rotor
    rotor 10 November 2013 12: 38
    0
    According to former US Air Force chief scientist Mark Lewis, a new era will come after the stealth era, part of which will be hypersonic speeds, Defense News reported September 17.

    The hypersonic speeds of promising weapons, even when detected by the radar network, will not leave the enemy time to take countermeasures, the scientist believes.

    Hypersonic weapons of the future can be created on the basis of X-51A WaveRider rocket technology. The booster accelerates the hypersonic platform to a speed of more than 4M, then the platform is separated from the launch vehicle, the scramjet (hypersonic jet engine) is turned on, with the help of which a speed of more than 6M (7400 km / h) is theoretically achieved. For example, the Tomahawk cruise missile has a speed of only about 880 km / h.

    But at the same time, hypersonic weapons are unlikely to completely replace stealth technologies. “I do not think that it will replace stealth, most likely, it will be a complement to stealth. It will be a combination of possibilities. This will be the direction in which the Air Force will develop, ”Lewis said.

    According to James Acton, lead researcher at the Carnegie Endowment Foundation, speed and stealth will be designed to complete two different missions. “I don’t know what will be better in 20-30 years to overcome the enemy’s defense - stealth or speed. This is a very important issue that needs to be considered now.
    1. Rus2012
      10 November 2013 13: 15
      0
      Flying Yankees ...

      1 flight.
      26 May 2010 The experimental complex (GLA with a rocket accelerator) flawlessly detached from the wing of the B-52H aircraft at an altitude of 14 800 m. An accelerator was launched through 4 and the number M rose to 4.8 at an altitude of 19 800 m. Then the accelerator was reset, the number of M flights dropped to 4.73, and at that moment the scramjet started working. GLA reached a height of 21 350 m and a speed corresponding to M = 4.88. * According to AFRL experts, during the first 15 s the design mode was implemented, and the engine’s operating characteristics - thrust, pressure recovery coefficient, heat loads in the heat exchanger - turned out to be slightly better than expected. However, then an increase in temperature and full pressure in the rear part of the SU began. On 120, an unexpected roll and yaw movement arose; the control system was functioning normally. On 140, there were malfunctions in the information transmission system, and although the engine continued to work, the movement slowed down. As the telemetry analysis showed, after scramjet launch, the acceleration along the trajectory turned out to be less than the calculated one (about 0.15 instead of 0.22).
      * Approx. the results shown are comparable with the accuracy of registration systems. Therefore, they cannot be considered convincing. Although in my opinion, these are their most significant indicators that were achieved at X-51.

      2 flight
      It took place on June 13, 2011 and turned out to be completely unsuccessful: the accelerator brought the GLA to M> 5, but during the transition to ramjet operation, the ethylene quickly burned out, the thrust did not reach the level corresponding to the combustion of the main fuel.
      http://www.dogswar.ru/oryjeinaia-ekzotika/aviaciia/6853-eksperimentalnyi-bes.htm

      l? start = 1

      3 flight (most successful according to the Yankees)
      TSAMTO, 6 of May. Boeing announced the successful 1 test flight of the X-51A Waverider, equipped with a hypersonic ramjet engine (SCRE), on May 51.

      The launch was carried out at an altitude of 50000 feet (15200 m) above the Point Mugu marine test site in 10: 55 Pacific Time. Starting accelerator accelerates X-51 to 4,8M speeds (brought to what height? Is it important), after which it successfully separated with the intermediate stage. Pratt & Whitney Rocketdine's hypersonic ramjet engine also started successfully and allowed the GLA to develop speed 5,1М (6100 km / h), at an altitude of 18200. After the full fuel consumption of the JP-7, a team passed on the self-destruction of the device.
      According to the developers, all of the test objectives have been met. During a flight lasting 6 minutes, the device flew 426 km. The flight at hypersonic speed lasted three and a half minutes.
      http://vpk.name/news/89226_boing_provel_uspeshnyie_ispyitaniya_giperzvukovogo_le

      tatelnogo_apparata_x51a_ueivraider.html
      1. rotor
        rotor 10 November 2013 13: 38
        0
        at height 18200


        it is not written there.

        It is written there:

        According to Darryl Davis, the president of Boeing Phantom Works, a successful demonstration of a hypersonic ramjet engine with a hypersonic ramjet engine proves that the development of the technology has reached a stage allowing its practical application in the defense sphere to begin.
        1. Rus2012
          10 November 2013 18: 14
          -1
          Quote: rotor
          It is written there:

          Therefore, we need cyclograms with accurate readings and commands, plus metrological data for measurement systems, plus repeatability, and not bare words like "long live Soviet power."
          Believe senior officials more, they will tell you a lot of interesting things. Especially when you need to adjust the budget or who to go for war ...

          They write a lot, for example, about laser systems, that they already sort of knock down ballistic targets and will soon enter service ... about the "invisible" F-117, which for some reason in its prime is suddenly removed from service ... and much more.

          And about
          speed 5,1М (6100 km / h), at an altitude of 18200.

          there is a question mark missing -
          should be "at 18200?"
          Because there is an indication of height in other data - (Wiki)
          On May 1, 2013, the United States successfully tested a missile over the Pacific Ocean. [7] [8] It was launched from a B-52 aircraft flying from Edwards Air Force Base and reached a height of 18200 meters, where it developed a speed corresponding to Mach 5,1. The flight lasted for six minutes, during which the rocket flew a distance of 426 kilometers. This test flight was the longest and most successful of all conducted.

          So sorry
          1. Altair
            Altair 10 November 2013 22: 46
            -1
            Quote: Rus2012
            They write a lot more, for example, about laser systemsthat they are already, as it were, knocking down ballistic targets and will soon become operational ...

            Scientists from Jefferson's laboratory showed reporters the record power of the new injector Free Electron Combat Laser (FEL) US Navy.
            http://rnd.cnews.ru/army/news/line/index_science.shtml?2011/02/25/429567

            The company Boeing has created a powerful laser that can provide a "laser revolution" in the military
            http://topwar.ru/34341-kompaniya-boeing-sozdala-moschnyy-lazer-kotoryy-mozhet-ob
            espechit-lazernuyu-revolyuciyu-v-voennom-dele.html
          2. for
            for 12 November 2013 18: 14
            +1
            Therefore, we need cyclograms with accurate readings and commands, plus metrological data for measurement systems, plus repeatability, and not bare words like "long live Soviet power."
            So who will give them out - darlings?
            Here, even by "Cold", it is impossible to get anything, but you want data from the latest tests of our sworn friends.
  • studentmati
    studentmati 10 November 2013 21: 15
    +1
    And who was at the origin of the theme "Cold" and "Cold-2"? "Great is seen at a distance!"
    1. Rus2012
      10 November 2013 21: 46
      +2
      Quote: studentmati
      And who was at the origin of the theme "Cold" and "Cold-2"? "Great is seen at a distance!"

      From here - http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/48/page28.html
      Hypersonic ramjet engines have been developed in the USSR since the 50 of the last century. In 1957, Professor E.S. Schetinkov filed an application for the invention of the scramjet engine and subsequently received a copyright certificate. Works performed in the 1950-1960-s at the Center. Keldysh, where then worked E.S. Shchetinkov, at TsIAM and TsAGI, showed the promise of using a scramjet for aerospace aircraft. Then it was determined that the most valuable and reliable information about the properties of these engines can give their flight tests.
      Ruvim Isaevich Kurziner is the first head of hypersonic research at TsIAM.
      Many hundreds of employees took part in the work on the "Cold" program, but nevertheless, the main part of the research and development was carried out at CIAM.
      In March 1979, a working group was set up at CIAM to develop an experimental scramjet engine and its systems, bench tests of the engine, design and manufacture of an onboard liquid hydrogen storage and supply system and the general layout of the head compartments of the "Kholod" GLP, preparation and flight tests. The head of this group was Professor R.I. Kurziner, it included employees of units 300, 500, 700, 005, 008, 009. At various times, the scientific leadership of these works was carried out by R.I. Kurziner, D.A. Ogorodnikov, V.A. Sosunov, S.M. Shlyakhtenko.
      A huge amount of work was carried out by the CIAM pilot plant. Here the compartments of the "Kholod" GLP and equipment for bench tests of the scramjet engine and its systems were manufactured. This work was carried out under the direction of Yu.N. Baranova, A.V. Voronov and A.I. Tolchenov. The most active part in solving the problems that arose was taken by Yu.M. Shikhman, V.A. Vinogradov, M.V. Strokin, R.B. Shikh, G.G. Zhadan, V.N. Strokin, V.A. Grachev, R.V. Albegov, M.D. Petrov, V.A. Stepanov, G.P. Stepanov, G.A. Kleiankin, A.N. Antonov and others.
      1. for
        for 12 November 2013 18: 23
        +1
        Eh!
        It was a good time ...
        By the way, there is a little inaccuracy, in those days there was no Keldysh center, but there was NIITP, and before that, it was RNII-1.
        And when did Reuben Isaevich die?
        With this fucking perestroika, I somehow lost many contacts.
        1. Rus2012
          12 November 2013 21: 30
          0
          Quote: Petrovich
          And when did Reuben Isaevich die?

          I don’t remember exactly already.
          In the year 88m ... :(
          Just after him, in September 1988. the preparation and conduct of flight tests of the DGPVRD at the GL "Kholod" was entrusted to the department 012 ...
          1. for
            for 13 November 2013 13: 27
            0
            Quote: Rus2012
            I don’t remember exactly already.
            In the year 88m ... :(

            Sad ...
            Often had to communicate with him.
            An interesting person was also very passionate about the hypersonic direction.
  • Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 November 2013 09: 40
    0
    Quote: Rus2012
    Including the application of new approaches - attempts to intensify gas-dynamic processes in the combustion chamber, by imposing other physical phenomena - laser radiation, electrodynamic processes (microwave) ...
    But you yourself understand that enormous capacities are required. In this case, my boss said - "in order to improve the economy and efficiency, connect the Dnieper to the chamber and you will not need to supply fuel." No laughing - and such a project existed. And practically it was almost realized, this is the project of the "atomic plane" - http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/30/page22.html



    Rus2012 let a little fantasy with realities!
    the missile flying under the SU-27 is clearly visible in the photo.
    more detailed video! Su-27 kills a UFO
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0qziXmkbUw

    Many of my friends who are involved in alternative technologies agreed!
    1) A rocket, or rather an engine, is not a jet fuel. In Russian and for peasants --- there is an engine without mass rejection (according to the UFO principle), many already talk about this. Some people seem to have existed since the 50s. I think it was foolish to deny that military UFOs are no less interested in anything else.
    2) The speed on such engines - roughly in hyper hyper sound - well, somewhere around 20-30 thousand / h. if not more.

    and the question is if some have such engines --- until how then can they keep silent about such engines ??? without rejection of the masses - anti-gravity in Russian.
    It is believed that on September 11, the Americans finished off their houses with such toys.

    I would like to hear your opinion as a specialist?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • for
    for 12 November 2013 18: 40
    +1
    The article is intelligibly written but there are controversial issues, for example;
    For more than 20 years, the military has kept the M <3,5 (SR-71, Sotka, MiG-31). A further increase in speed does not imply additional advantages, all the same, anti-aircraft missiles on solid-fuel engines will get it if they intercept ICBM heads and satellites in the 1st space.

    1. “Perestroika” has been going on for more than 20 years, therefore, there are zero new developments, and, therefore, the military figure Mn <3,5.
    2. An increase in speed, for example, gives such an advantage to a combat aircraft, it can simply escape from an air-to-air missile.
    3. The use of a scramjet on a rocket launcher expands the interception zone due to the higher efficiency of the scramjet in comparison with solid propellant rocket engines and rocket engines, i.e. with the same mass-dimensional characteristics, you can have a large range, or vice versa, reducing the mass of missiles, we will get the same quality.
    Many options to consider. The scramjet engine needs to be done, and we will always find where to put it.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • gridasov
    gridasov 18 November 2013 20: 39
    0
    Supersonic flights are not aerodynamic processes, but electromagnetic ones. Consequently, flight in the medium of matter becomes the process of ionization of the surface of the expiration and polarization of the hull of the apparatus. If this is the case, then the potential difference at the ends of L.A. is dynamic in nature, which means that with the growth of this difference, in the middle part, along the body, kinetic pulses of radial magnetic fluxes grow. This leads to the explosion of all devices without exception. Compensation methods for such destructive magnetic fluxes are based on the fact that the source creating this potential difference on the body should not be taken from a local propulsion device, but from an ionizing surface of the medium. A person will not fly at hyper sound speeds until he carries out a comprehensive analysis of highly dynamic processes. Each of which is part of systemic transformations. Creating L.A turns out to be easier than understanding the principles of complex mathematical analysis.
  • SmileSimple
    SmileSimple 8 January 2014 13: 58
    0
    good day,
    thanks Rus2012 and Ascetic
    a lot of interesting things for me

    please explain the essence - what is the main problem of creating a scramjet:
    1. no materials that can withstand prolonged heat load?
    2. it is not possible to create a mixture of fuel and air at supersonic speeds and only for this it is necessary to slow down the flow in "subsonic"?
    3. or is the main problem with the ionization of the flow and therefore the high chemical activity destroying the engine and fuel?

    Thank you
    1. for
      for 9 January 2014 12: 38
      0
      Actually, there is a whole range of problems that need to be solved.
      The main problem, in my opinion, is the organization of an effective process of supplying energy (heat) to a supersonic air flow in a compressor station.
      After all, what is a jet engine - is a device for converting thermal energy into momentum. And the more efficient this process, the more efficient the engine.
      As soon as it is possible to create and hold the detonation wave in the fuel-air mixture, at the given geometric boundaries, then we can think about a hypersonic engine.
      The use of old, well-known, mastered Gd processes for supplying thermal energy to the air flow does not allow the creation of a scramjet.
      1. SmileSimple
        SmileSimple 10 January 2014 11: 49
        0
        I don `t understand
        - "... the organization of an efficient process of energy (heat) supply ..." after all, the fuel mixture is ignited in the combustion chamber and a surplus of energy (heat) appears, due to which the expansion takes place and the engine gets thrust. Why bring heat to the compressor station? or was it igniting the mixture?
        - I believed that in the ramjet / SPVRD, and therefore in the scramjet, there is a "constant ignition system", not an impulse one. Those. Simplified, a flow of the fuel mixture is constantly supplied to the constantly burning injector in the combustion chamber. Is not it?
        - "... keep the detonation wave in the air-fuel mixture, within the specified geometric boundaries ..." In your opinion, only a detonation method of combustion of a fuel mixture is possible in a gas-turbine engine? Why isn't "normal" combustion suitable?

        I will be grateful for the links that explain your answers. thanks
        1. for
          for 10 January 2014 16: 44
          0
          You can heat the air in different ways:
          - by burning fuel in it
          - using microwave radiation
          - using heat transfer, passing it through the fuel elements of a nuclear reactor,
          for a gas stream, this is not important; when heat is supplied (heating), the supersonic gas flow in the channel of constant cross section = is accelerated, and the supersonic gas slows down. (This is one of the properties of a gas stream).
          As for the use of this effect to obtain traction, then proceed as follows:
          1. Heat is supplied to the air flow in the channel (KS) (heated) = air (gas) accelerates, at the same time
          2. Change the geometry of the channel - i.e. reduce the cross-section (with constant pressure and decreasing the cross-section of the channel, the gas flow accelerates) until the gas flow velocity reaches a critical speed (approximately equal to the speed of sound), after that the cross-section of the duct begins to gradually increase, while the gas flow velocity begins to increase, exceeding the speed of sound, and the static temperature of the gas stream begins to decrease, i.e. heat (thermal energy of the molecules) is converted to speed. Well, the mass times velocity is the momentum of the gas stream, and the change in momentum per unit time is a force, i.e. traction.
          This is just to describe the process of obtaining traction by converting thermal energy.
          In the engine and scramjet engine, it is not a pulsating, but a constant flow of thermal energy, i.e. fuel is continuously fed to the nozzles, atomized and burned at the stabilizers of the compressor station. For SPARD, this method of fuel combustion has been developed and allows the creation of efficient CS with high thermodynamic efficiency.
          But as for the SC scramjet, unpleasant effects come into their own right - the formation of oblique, direct local shock waves, as soon as an obstacle or mechanical appears in the form of a body or a local zone of increased or decreased pressure is formed on the path of the supersonic flow . Such zones appear in the gas stream if a chemical reaction begins (local combustion, for example). And the formation of shock waves leads to a sharp increase in the total pressure loss and, as a result, a decrease in the momentum of the gas flow.
          So, if the scramjet uses the same heat supply technology as in the scramjet engine, then we get a remote control with a low specific impulse.
          How can this be avoided?
          Use the property of the detonation wave:
          -the thermodynamic efficiency of converting chemical energy into heat is higher than with conventional diffusion combustion;
          -the velocity of the gas air-fuel mixture is commensurate with the velocity of the detonation wave, and this gives us the chance to stabilize it along the length of the CS in some segment of it and get a stable stationary supersonic flow, which has one energy up to the detonation CS and another higher energy for the detonation CS , while the loss of total pressure will be the minimum possible.
          The detonation effect cannot be used in conventional "subsonic" CS, because in this case, we get just a pulsating mode. By the way, such PUVRD was developed by Chelomey at the dawn of his career, the GC.
          1. SmileSimple
            SmileSimple 10 January 2014 19: 29
            0
            Thanks for my 1 and 2 questions, I understood what you meant.
            but on the third question there were "misunderstandings":
            3.1 "... zones (pressure increase / decrease) appear in the gas flow if a chemical reaction starts ..." - how's that? According to the conservation law, how many total masses entered into a reaction -> as many total masses came out. Accordingly, if the mass is constant, then the pressure is constant.
            3.2 "... this is the formation of oblique, direct local shock waves ..." - I do not understand how this interferes with the combustion of the fuel mixture? the presence of the required concentration of chemical elements is important for the combustion reaction, and the speed and pressure are not important. For example, in the mountains you can also light a fire, although there is a low pressure. Or I don't know something about the features of supersonic flows?

            4th question = Do you know why the flow in SPVRD is slowed down to "subsonic"? After all, this is a technical difficulty and it is much more convenient to slow down the flow to 1,3M, and then overclock. Who knows the reason why exactly the flow is slowed down in "subsonic"?

            thank you
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. for
          for 10 January 2014 16: 56
          0
          As for the links, these are the usual laws of gas dynamics, which can be found in any textbook, for example: - "Applied Gas Dynamics" by Abramovich.
          And on scramjet a lot of interesting things were written and published by Kurziner R.I.
          1. SmileSimple
            SmileSimple 10 January 2014 19: 10
            0
            thanks, look and see
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • SmileSimple
    SmileSimple 13 January 2014 19: 43
    0
    read textbooks and looked at "fresh" dissertations ...
    Conclusion - today, in experiments, we have already learned how to make high-quality fuel mixtures for scramjet engines and stably burn them at supersonic speed (M> = 2,5), i.e. it is not necessary to slow down sweats in "subsonic".
    Of the unresolved issues, there were:
    - the required length of the COP and therefore the entire remote control
    - too high heat flux in the combustion chamber => there are no materials that are guaranteed to withstand a sufficient period of operation
    - traction control

    PS By the way, you do not even need to count on fuel elements from nuclear reactors even for unmanned vehicles. There are even more technical problems there.
    1. for
      for 14 January 2014 16: 37
      0
      Well, at the expense of the fuel rods do not tell ....
      There are no technical problems there, they were resolved back in the 70s.
      But there is one problem, but the problem for all Problems is the Problem. How to avoid radioactive emissions into the atmosphere?
      As for the rest, what are you talking about, then
      - The creation of fuel assemblies at the inlet to the gas scramjet engine is still a problem, and burning fuel in a supersonic flow with a high completeness of combustion, as in subsonic chambers (0,95), is not yet achievable.
      The length of the CS is not a problem, it is a consequence of the necessary time the fuel assemblies stay in the CS until it is completely burned (by the way, combustion in a detonation wave significantly reduces the length of the CS)
      - heat flow to the wall is also not a problem, but the subject of calculations and optimization of the temperature distribution over the gas flow cross section and some other points;
      - and, you, apparently, had in mind the control of the thrust value, and not the vector, so this is solved quite simply by changing the fuel concentration in the fuel assembly.

      No.
      There is one unresolved problem: - organization of the working process of fuel combustion using detonation combustion. And everything else is a normal engineering task, for those who can of course.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. SmileSimple
        SmileSimple 18 January 2014 14: 19
        0
        My first higher FAM (Faculty of Nuclear Engineering) ...
        About the problems of using fuel rods and nuclear engines in an aircraft
        1. Fuel rods cannot be ON / OFF -> if work starts, you have to fly until the "charge" ends ~ 10 months
        2. the change in the thermal power of the fuel rods occurs very slowly from 10 minutes (plus there is an unpleasant "pit" effect) -> it means it is difficult to regulate the engine thrust
        3.the heat flux from the fuel element is adjusted by introducing absorbing rods into the zone -> when this scheme is applied in the engine combustion chamber, aerodynamic blocking of the channel will occur
        4. The fuel elements operate in a very narrow temperature range = heating of the coolant is less than 100 degrees - this is enough for nuclear power plants and not enough for the aircraft engine
        5. the housing material of the fuel elements does not withstand prolonged heating above 700С. Replacing materials with refractory ones is pointless because at higher temperatures there are problems with controlling the nuclear reaction (we were taught that way, although I didn’t check it myself). Alas, the operating temperature of the fuel elements is lower than in the combustion chamber of the SPVRD and all the more unsuitable for scramjet

        As you can see, I did not touch upon radiation problems at all

        In addition, if technical problems were resolved in 1970x, then why did the accident in Chernobyl and Fukushima happen? Why did technically advanced Germany adopt a program to close nuclear power plants in the 21st century?
        1. for
          for 20 January 2014 11: 23
          0
          My main specialty is nuclear rocket engines.
          As for the fuel rods, I did not say that metal-ceramic fuel rods are used here.
          As for the regulation of the core, try to find the book. "Nuclear rocket engines" Year of release: 2001 Author: Demyanko Yu.G., Konyukhov G.V., Koroteev A.S., Kuzmin E.P., Pavelyev A.A. Publisher: Norma-Inform ISBN: 5-901498-05-4 Language: Russian.
          From it, much will become clear to you.
          As for accidents at nuclear power plant reactors, what is the connection here?
          1. SmileSimple
            SmileSimple 20 January 2014 12: 51
            0
            Thanks. I'll see the books.

            Please, tell me where they teach about "nuclear rocket engines"? How high-quality education is there now? Should I send my children there?

            If we do not take into account the reasons that led to the initial failure in the operation of the nuclear power plant, then accidents are "weak" technologies that are unable to cope with the heat flux increased by less than 20%.
            1. for
              for 20 January 2014 16: 37
              0
              Now this specialty is gone. There remained a specialization of electro-rocket and electro-plasma rocket propulsion systems.
              2nd ft MAI, 3rd stream.
              I don’t know about teaching, but according to rumors it’s not very. If you yourself will not be purposefully engaged, then the attitude of the teachers towards you will be appropriate, and it was the same in the USSR before.
              As for accidents, these are either design errors, or a defect in the design, or a human factor (but again, look at design errors, when you did not lay down a "mistake from a fool").
              1. SmileSimple
                SmileSimple 20 January 2014 23: 34
                0
                our faculty bent at the end of 90's :(
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. SmileSimple
            SmileSimple 20 January 2014 12: 51
            0
            Thanks. I'll see the books.

            Please, tell me where they teach about "nuclear rocket engines"? How high-quality education is there now? Should I send my children there?

            If we do not take into account the reasons that led to the initial failure in the operation of the nuclear power plant, then accidents are "weak" technologies that are unable to cope with the heat flux increased by less than 20%.
  • SmileSimple
    SmileSimple 18 January 2014 14: 00
    0
    - google the dissertations of this century ... I read three, which states that in experiments they achieved stable mixing / combustion of fuel assemblies at the 0,8-0,9 level at a flow rate of ~ 2,5Max. I believed this data. I do not force others to believe :)
    - You are right, the length of ~ 10 meters of the CS is not a problem for experiments on the ground. Only the total length of a real engine for a rocket / aircraft turns out 25-30 meters and weight ... and this already looks like a problem.
    - You're right, the heat flow can be optimized and a heat exchanger can be made that can withstand 1500-2500 degrees for a long time ... but only on the ground, because the weight of such a structure is not economically viable to send in flight. For the flight of rockets / airplanes, available materials are needed that can withstand a long-term heat flow without losing strength (somewhere around 2000С on the surface during the entire flight time) and are inert to oxidants. So far, such materials have not been received, and there are even doubts that "nanoGraphite" will be able to withstand.
    - You are right, I have a typo about "vector"
    - Sorry, but I did not understand your opinion. Detonation combustion (simplified) = propagation of the combustion front at a supersonic speed. Yes, in the default scramjet engine, fuel assembly combustion should go on supersonic. Therefore, we again return to the question of whether you believe modern scientists and their dissertations. Or did something else mean?
    1. for
      for 20 January 2014 11: 40
      0
      1. Actually, there are much more dissertations on the organization of combustion in a supersonic flow and all of them demonstrate the achievement of high completeness of combustion in experiments, only in practice none of this has been realized.
      2. Again, I did not say anything about the specific length of the CS, but since I have been solving such problems for many years I affirm only one thing, there is a global optimum (geometric dimensions and performance characteristics) for this type of engine, inside which there is a local optimum of the length of the CS and, naturally, it will not have a length of 10 meters, but it will be somewhere around 2-2,5 meters maximum.
      3. Optimization of heat fluxes does not mean that heat exchangers need to be added to the design, there are other ways of organizing the process, curtain protection, for example, or, if the lifespan is short, ablation coating of the inner surface of the CC wall.
      But these are all questions of optimization of the design scheme of remote control on mathematical models ....

      As for the use of detonation combustion, if the detonation wave propagates towards the fuel assembly flow, and if the flow velocity is equal to the velocity of propagation of the detonation wave, then this detonation wave, relative to the combustion chamber, will stand still.
      1. SmileSimple
        SmileSimple 20 January 2014 13: 08
        0
        1. Your opinion is understandable - I believed that scientists can do this, and you are a person from the "system" saying that in fact scientists cannot. The future will show who is closer to the truth :)
        3. Ablative coating, by and large, is suitable for single-use missiles. I agree that the curtain protection can solve the issue, but this entails an increase in the mass of the aircraft, which is spent only on thermal protection and ... it's still a "heat exchanger" :)
        Thank you, I understand what you mean using the concept of "detonation wave".


        2. When you wrote that "... the global optimum KS = 2,5 meters" - this is interesting to me and is not yet clear:
        a) Did you mean that such a length of the CS is the Technical Assignment and should fit?
        or
        b) Did you mean that there are technologies (physical phenomena) that make it possible to make spacecraft of such a length with sufficient power for missiles / aircraft? Please give a link to the book?

        Thank you
        1. for
          for 20 January 2014 17: 01
          0
          Quote: SmileSimple
          2. When you wrote that "... the global optimum KS = 2,5 meters" - this is interesting to me and is not yet clear:
          a) Did you mean that such a length of the CS is the Technical Assignment and should fit?
          or
          b) Did you mean that there are technologies (physical phenomena) that make it possible to make spacecraft of such a length with sufficient power for missiles / aircraft? Please give a link to the book?

          No.
          I meant the following:
          1. The main goal is determined: - "... to create a hypersonic strategic missile carrier, which should have the following performance characteristics ..." and this is a global task, solving it we get the optimal design of the missile carrier, that is, the global optimum.
          2. The design of the missile carrier consists of the following parts: - glider, remote control, control system, etc., for these parts, the boundaries are determined, within which it is necessary to create products with their optimal performance characteristics, i.e. already local optimum, etc.
          Those. from complex to simple, otherwise it is called a systematic approach to design.
      2. SmileSimple
        SmileSimple 20 January 2014 13: 08
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        1. Your opinion is understandable - I believed that scientists can do this, and you are a person from the "system" saying that in fact scientists cannot. The future will show who is closer to the truth :)
        3. Ablative coating, by and large, is suitable for single-use missiles. I agree that the curtain protection can solve the issue, but this entails an increase in the mass of the aircraft, which is spent only on thermal protection and ... it's still a "heat exchanger" :)
        Thank you, I understand what you mean using the concept of "detonation wave".


        2. When you wrote that "... the global optimum KS = 2,5 meters" - this is interesting to me and is not yet clear:
        a) Did you mean that such a length of the CS is the Technical Assignment and should fit?
        or
        b) Did you mean that there are technologies (physical phenomena) that make it possible to make spacecraft of such a length with sufficient power for missiles / aircraft? Please give a link to the book?

        Thank you
        1. for
          for 20 January 2014 17: 08
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          Quote: SmileSimple
          and you are a person from the "system" say that in fact scientists cannot.

          I was in the system, but all went out.
          As for scientists .....
          Everything is possible with us, but only a few can, and then everyone is good in his place, a scientist in his own way, an engineer in his own way.