Military Review

7 best World War II submarines

68



Submarines dictate the rules in a naval war and make everyone obediently follow the established order.

Those stubborn people who risk neglecting the rules of the game will face a quick and painful death in the cold water, amid floating debris and oil stains. Boats, regardless of the flag, remain the most dangerous fighting vehicles capable of crushing any enemy.

I bring to your attention a short story about the seven most successful projects of the submarines of the war years.

Type T boats (Triton-class), UK
The number of submarines built is 53.
Surface displacement - 1290 tons; scuba - 1560 tons.
Crew - 59 ... 61 people.
The immersion depth is 90 m (riveted body), 106 m (welded body).
Full speed in surface position - 15,5 nodes; in the underwater - 9 nodes.
The fuel supply of 131 tons provided the cruising range on the surface 8000 miles.
Armament:
- 11 torpedo tubes of caliber 533 mm (on boats of subseries II and III), ammunition - 17 torpedoes;
- 1 x 102 mm universal weapon, 1 x 20 mm anti-aircraft "Oerlikon".


7 best World War II submarines

HMS Traveler

British underwater Terminator, capable of "knocking crap" out of the head of any enemy with the help of a nasal 8 torpedo salvo. The T-type boats were not equal in destructive power among all submarines of the WWII period - this explains their fierce appearance with a fancy nasal superstructure, which housed additional torpedo tubes.

The notorious British conservatism is in the past - the British were among the first to equip their boats with ASDIC sonars. Alas, in spite of its powerful weapons and modern means of detection, the T-type open-sea boats did not become the most effective among the Second World War British submarines. Nevertheless, they went through an exciting combat path and achieved a number of remarkable victories. "Tritons" were actively used in the Atlantic, in the Mediterranean, smashed Japanese communications in the Pacific Ocean, were noted several times in the cold waters of the Arctic.

In August, 1941, the submarines "Taigris" and "Trident" arrived in Murmansk. British submariners demonstrated a master class to their Soviet colleagues: in two campaigns, 4 enemy ships were sunk, incl. “Bahia Laura” and “Donau II” with thousands of soldiers of the 6 th Mountain Division. Thus, the sailors prevented the third German offensive on Murmansk.

Other famous T-type trophies include the German light cruiser Karlsruhe and the Japanese heavy cruiser Ashigara. Samurai “lucky” to get acquainted with the full 8-torpedo salvo of the submarine “Trencher” - having received 4 torpedoes into the board (+ another one of the stern TA), the cruiser quickly overturned and sank.

After the war, powerful and accomplished "Tritons" had been in service with the Royal Navy for a quarter of a century.
It is noteworthy that three boats of this type were acquired by Israel at the end of the 1960s — one of them, INS Dakar (formerly HMS Totem), died in the 1968 year in the Mediterranean Sea under unclear circumstances.

Boats of the type "Cruising" Series XIV, Soviet Union
The number of submarines built is 11.
Surface displacement - 1500 tons; scuba - 2100 tons.
Crew - 62 ... 65 people.
Immersion depth - 80 m, maximum - 100 m.
Full speed on the surface - 22,5 knots .; in underwater - 10 knots.
Navigation range in surface position 16500 miles (9 knots.)
Submerged navigation range - 175 miles (3 knots.)
Armament:
- 10 torpedo tubes caliber 533 mm, ammunition - 24 torpedoes;
- 2 x 100 mm universal guns, 2 x 45 mm anti-aircraft semi-automatic;
- Up to 20 mines barrage.




... 3 December 1941, the German hunters UJ-1708, UJ-1416 and UJ-1403 bombarded a Soviet boat that attempted to attack a convoy from Bustad Sund.

- Hans, do you hear this thing?
- Nein. After a series of explosions, the Russians lay to the bottom — I spotted three blows to the ground ...
“Can you tell where they are now?”
- Donnervetter! They are purged. Surely decided to surface and surrender.

German sailors were wrong. From the depths of the sea rose MONSTER - cruising submarine K-3 series XIV, brought down on the enemy squall of artillery fire. From the fifth salvo, the Soviet sailors managed to sink the U-1708. The second hunter, having received two direct hits, began to smoke and turned aside - his 20 mm anti-aircraft guns could not compete with the "weavers" of the secular submarine cruiser. Spreading Germans like puppies, K-3 quickly disappeared over the horizon on an 20-node turn.

Soviet "Katyusha" was a phenomenal boat for its time. Welded hull, powerful artillery and mine-torpedo armament, powerful diesel engines (2 x 4200 hp!), High surface speed 22-23 node. Huge autonomy for fuel reserves. Remote control valves ballast tanks. Radio station capable of transmitting signals from the Baltic to the Far East. Exceptional level of comfort: shower cabins, refrigerated tanks, two seawater desalination plants, an electrolley… Two boats (K-3 and K-22) were equipped with ASDIC land-lease sonars.



But, oddly enough, neither the high performance nor the most powerful weapons made the Katyusha effective. weapons - besides dark stories with the K-21 attack on the Tirpitz, during the war years, the XIV series of boats accounted for all 5 successful torpedo attacks and 27 thousands of br. reg. tons of tonnage drowned. Most of the victories were won using mines exposed. Moreover, their own losses amounted to five cruising boats.


K-21, Severomorsk, our days

The reasons for the failures lie in the tactics of the "Katyusha" - the powerful submarine cruisers created for the expanses of the Pacific Ocean, had to "trample" in the shallow Baltic "puddle". When operating at depths of 30-40 meters, the huge 97-meter boat could have hit the ground with its bow, while its stern still stuck to the surface. Not so much easier for seamen-North Seamen — as experience has shown, the effectiveness of the Katyush combat use was complicated by the weak training of personnel and the lack of initiative of the command.

It's a pity. These boats were calculated for more.


"Baby", the Soviet Union
Series VI and VI-bis - built by 50.
Series XII - built by 46.
Series XV - built 57 (4 took part in the fighting).

TTX boats type M series XII:
Surface displacement - 206 tons; scuba - 258 tons.
Autonomy - 10 days.
Immersion depth - 50 m, maximum - 60 m.
Full speed on the surface - 14 knots .; in underwater - 8 knots.
Navigation range on the surface - 3380 miles (8,6 nodes).
Submerged navigation range - 108 miles (node ​​3).
Armament:
- 2 torpedo tubes, caliber 533 mm, ammunition - 2 torpedoes;
- 1 x 45 mm anti-aircraft semi-automatic.



Baby!

Mini submarine project for fast Pacific enhancement fleet - The main feature of type M boats was the possibility of transportation along the railway in fully assembled form.

In pursuit of compactness, many had to be sacrificed - the service at the “Little” turned into an exhausting and dangerous event. Severe living conditions, strong “bumpiness” - waves mercilessly threw the 200-ton “float”, risking breaking it into pieces. Shallow depth of immersion and weak weapon. But the main concern of the sailors was the reliability of the submarine - one shaft, one diesel engine, one electric motor - the tiny “Baby” did not leave chances to the careless crew, the slightest malfunction on board threatened to kill the submarine.

Kids evolved quickly - the performance characteristics of each new series were several times different from the previous project: improved contours, updated electrical equipment and means of detection, reduced the time of immersion, increased autonomy. The “babies” of the XV series didn’t resemble their predecessors of the VI and XII series: the one-and-a-half structure - the ballast tanks were moved out of the solid hull; The power plant received a standard two-shaft layout with two diesel engines and underwater electric motors. The number of torpedo tubes has increased to four. Alas, the series XV appeared too late - the main burden of the war was borne on itself by the “Baby” of the VI and XII series.



Despite their modest size and the entire 2 torpedoes on board, the tiny fish were simply terrifying “voraciousness”: during the years of World War II, the Soviet type M submarines sank 61 enemy ships with a total tonnage of 135,5 thousands of brts, destroyed 10 warships, and also destroyed 8 warships, as well as damaged XNUMX warships, and destroyed XNUMX warships, as well as damaged XNUMX .

The babies, originally intended only for operations in the coastal zone, have learned how to effectively fight in the open sea areas. They, along with larger boats, cut enemy communications, patrolled at exits from enemy bases and fjords, deftly overcame anti-submarine barriers and undermined transports right at piers inside protected enemy harbors. It is amazing how the Red Navy men were able to fight on these flimsy little ships! But they fought. And they won!

The “Medium” type boats of the IX-bis series, Soviet Union
The number of submarines built is 41.
Surface displacement - 840 tons; scuba - 1070 tons.
Crew - 36 ... 46 people.
Immersion depth - 80 m, maximum - 100 m.
Full speed in surface position - 19,5 nodes; submerged - 8,8 nodes.
Sailing range in surface position 8000 miles (10 nodes).
Submerged range 148 miles (node ​​3).


“Six torpedo tubes and the same amount of spare torpedoes on convenient shelves for reloading. Two guns with a large ammunition, machine guns, blasting property ... In short, there is something to fight. And 20-node surface speed! It allows you to overtake almost any convoy and attack it again. The technique is good ... "
- opinion of the commander of the C-56, Hero of the Soviet Union G.I. Shchedrin


C-33

"Eski" differed rational layout and balanced design, powerful weapons, excellent driving and seaworthy qualities. Initially, the German project of the company "Deshimag", modified under Soviet requirements. But do not rush to clap and remember the “Mistral”. After the start of serial construction of the IX series in the Soviet shipyards, the German project was revised to fully switch to Soviet equipment: diesel engines 1D, weapons, radio stations, a direction finder, a gyrocompass ... - in the boats that received the designation "series IX-bis", there was not a single bolts of foreign production!

The problems of combat use of the “Medium” type boats, in general, were similar to the cruiser K-type boats — locked in shallow water that is mine-infested; they were never able to realize their high combat qualities. Things were much better in the Northern Fleet - during the war years, the C-56 submarine commanded by G.I. Shchedrin made the transition through the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, moving from Vladivostok to Polar, later becoming the most productive boat of the Soviet Navy.

No less a fantastic story connected with the C-101 “bombshell” - during the war years the Germans and allies dropped over the 1000 depth charges onto the boat, but every time C-101 returned safely to Polar.

Finally, it was at C-13 that Alexander Marinesko achieved his famous victories.


Torpedo compartment C-56

“Violent alterations, into which the ship fell, bombings and explosions, depths far exceeding the official limit. The boat protected us from everything ... ”

- from GI's memoirs Shchedrin

Gato type boats, USA
The number of submarines built is 77.
Surface displacement - 1525 tons; scuba - 2420 tons.
Crew - 60 people.
Immersion depth - 90 m.
Full speed on the surface - 21 knots .; submerged - 9 knots.
Navigation range on the surface 11 000 miles (10 knots.).
Submerged range 96 miles (2 knots.).
Armament:
- 10 torpedo tubes caliber 533 mm, ammunition - 24 torpedoes;
- 1 x 76 mm universal weapon, 1 x 40 mm anti-aircraft gun Bofors, 1 x 20 mm Oerlikon;
- one of the boats - USS Barb was equipped with a multiple rocket launcher system for shelling the coast.




Ocean submarine cruisers of the “Gatou” type appeared at the very height of the Pacific War and became one of the most effective tools of the US Navy. They tightly blocked all strategic straits and approaches to the atolls, cut all supply lines, leaving the Japanese garrisons without reinforcements, and the Japanese industry - without raw materials and oil. In battles with the “Gatou”, the Imperial fleet lost two heavy aircraft carriers, lost four cruisers and a damn dozen destroyers.

High speed, slaughter torpedo weapons, the most modern electronic means of detecting the enemy - radar, direction finder, sonar. Sailing range, providing combat patrols off the coast of Japan when operating from a base in Hawaii. Increased comfort on board. But the main thing is the excellent training of the crews and the weakness of the Japanese anti-submarine weapons. As a result, the “Gatou” mercilessly cracked down everything - they were the ones who brought victory from the blue depths of the sea to the Pacific.



... One of the main achievements of the “Gatou” boats, which changed the whole world, is the 2 event of September 1944. On that day, the Finbek submarine detected a distress signal from a falling plane and, after many hours of searching, found a frightened pilot in the ocean, and the desperate pilot was already . Saved was one George Herbert Bush.


The cabin of the submarine "Flasher", a memorial in the city of Groton.

The list of “Flashcher” trophies sounds like a naval anecdote: 9 tankers, 10 transports, 2 patrol ships with a total tonnage of 100 231 brt! And for a snack, the boat grabbed the Japanese cruiser and the destroyer. Lucky devil!

Electrobots type XXI, Germany

By April 1945, the Germans had time to launch the 118 submarines of the XXI series. However, only two of them were able to achieve operational readiness and go to sea in the last days of the war.

Surface displacement - 1620 tons; scuba - 1820 tons.
Crew - 57 people.
The working depth of the dive is 135 m, the maximum depth is 200 + meters.
Full speed in surface position - 15,6 knots., Submerged - 17 knots.
Navigation range on the surface 15 500 miles (10 knots.).
Submerged range 340 miles (5 knots.).
Armament:
- 6 torpedo tubes caliber 533 mm, ammunition - 17 torpedoes;
- 2 Flak anti-aircraft automatic machine of 20 caliber mm.



U-2540 "Wilhelm Bauer" on the eternal parking in Bremerhaven, our days

Our allies were very fortunate that all the forces of Germany were thrown on the Eastern Front - the Fritz did not have enough resources to release a flock of fantastic "Electric Dogs" into the sea. Appear they a year earlier - and that's all, kaput! Another change in the battle for the Atlantic.

The Germans were the first to guess: everything that shipbuilders of other countries are proud of - large ammunition, powerful artillery, high surface speed of 20 + nodes - is of little importance. The key parameters determining the combat effectiveness of a submarine are its speed and power reserve in a submerged position.

Unlike its peers, "Eletrobot" was focused on the constant presence under water: the most streamlined corps without heavy artillery, fences and platforms - all for the sake of minimizing underwater resistance. Snorkel, six groups of batteries (3 times more than conventional boats!), Powerful electric. engines of full speed, quiet and economical electric. sneak engines.


Stern U-2511 submerged at a depth of 68 meters

The Germans calculated everything - the whole campaign "Electrobot" was moving at a periscope depth under the RDP, remaining difficult to detect for the enemy anti-submarine weapons. At great depths, his advantage became even more shocking: the 2-3 had a larger power reserve, at twice the speed of any wartime submarine! High stealth and impressive underwater skills, self-guided torpedoes, a set of the most advanced detection tools ... Electrobots opened a new milestone in the history of the submarine fleet, defining the vector of development of submarines in the postwar years.

The allies were not ready for a meeting with a similar threat - as shown by the post-war tests, the Electrobot were several times longer in range of mutual sonar detection by the American and British destroyers guarding the convoys.

Type VII boats, Germany
The number of submarines built is 703.
Surface displacement - 769 tons; underwater - 871 ton.
Crew - 45 people.
Immersion depth - 100 m, maximum - 220 meters
Full speed on the surface - 17,7 knots .; submerged - 7,6 knots.
Navigation range on the surface 8 500 miles (10 knots.).
Submerged range 80 miles (4 knots.).
Armament:
- 5 torpedo tubes caliber 533 mm, ammunition - 14 torpedoes;
- 1 x 88 mm universal weapon (up to 1942 year), eight options add-ons with 20 and 37 mm anti-aircraft installations.


* the specified performance characteristics correspond to the sub-series VIIC boats



The most effective warships from all who have ever plied the oceans.
Relatively simple, cheap, massive, but at the same time perfectly armed and lethal means for total underwater terror.

703 submarines. 10 MILLION tons of sunken tonnage! Battleships, cruisers, aircraft carriers, destroyers, corvettes and submarines of the enemy, oil tankers, transports with airplanes, tanks, cars, rubber, ore, machine tools, ammunition, uniforms and food ... The damage from the actions of German submariners exceeded all reasonable limits - if it were not for the inexhaustible industrial potential of the United States, which could compensate for any losses of the allies, the German U-bots had every chance to "strangle »Great Britain and change the course of world history.


U-995. Graceful Underwater Assassin

Often, the success of the “sevens” is associated with the “prosperous time” of the 1939-41. - ostensibly with the appearance of the allies of the convoy system and Asdik sonars, the success of the German submariners ended. A completely populist statement based on a misinterpretation of “prosperous times”.

The alignment was simple: at the beginning of the war, when each German boat had one anti-submarine allied ship, the G7s felt invincible masters of the Atlantic. It was then that the legendary aces appeared, sinking the enemy's 40 ships. The Germans were already holding the victory in their hands when the Allies suddenly launched 10 anti-submarine ships and 10 planes per each active Kriegsmarine boat!

Starting in the spring of 1943, the Yankees and the British began methodically to overthrow the Kriegsmarine with anti-submarine technology and soon achieved an excellent loss ratio - 1: 1. So they fought until the end of the war. The Germans ships ended faster than their opponents.

The whole history of the German “sevens” is a terrible warning from the past: what threat does a submarine represent and how big are the costs of creating an effective system to counter the underwater threat.




Stylo American poster of those years. "Hit the pain points! Come serve on the submarine fleet - on our account 77% of the submerged tonnage!" Comments, as they say, are unnecessary.


The article uses materials from the book "Soviet submarine shipbuilding", V. I. Dmitriev, Voenizdat, 1990 year.
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  1. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon 8 November 2013 08: 17
    11
    Thanks for the review! The article is great! hi
    1. aleks
      aleks 8 November 2013 15: 28
      -1
      And what does the murky story with the k-21 attack mean?
      1. Santa Fe
        8 November 2013 15: 37
        +5
        Quote: aleks
        And what does the murky story with the k-21 attack mean?

        This means that in German documents there is not a single confirmation of Lunin's attack - the Germans did not even see traces of torpedoes

        Also, there is no evidence that Tirpitz was damaged - neither official German reports, nor reports from Norwegian British intelligence informants, nor recollections of the battleship crew

        Such an event could not go unnoticed. The result of a torpedo hit on the board of the American battleship North Caroline (distinguished by the Japanese submarine I-19)
        1. Denis_469
          Denis_469 8 November 2013 15: 41
          +4
          Confirmation is damage to Tirpitz. But not in his CTB, but in the CTB OKM. Anyone who reads the volume during the PQ-18 convoy can easily see the mention of the fact that Tirpitz will not be sent there due to damage to the ship’s turbine, which does not allow him to have the most full speed.
          Morozov was not paid for this, and therefore he did not write this in his vyser.

          KTB Tirpitsa is falsified. Because Hitler needed a personal order at his exit, but he was not. And for damage to the battleship in the AWOL, it was easy to lose the head of both the commander of the battleship and all the superior officers.
          1. Santa Fe
            8 November 2013 16: 06
            +2
            Quote: Denis_469
            KTB Tirpitz falsified

            How about messages from local informants)) SUCH damage to the ship could not be hidden from prying eyes

            The results of torpedo hits in the LC Vittoio Veneto:

            A 450-mm torpedo hit the stern of the starboard over the right outer propeller (about six meters under the waterline). An explosion of 227 kg of the torpedo’s combat loading compartment led to enormous damage: a 9 by 3 hole, an intensely flooded corridor of the right outer rowing shaft, a deformed and jammed shaft (along with the auxiliary starboard side rudder), and leaks in longitudinal and transverse bulkheads in the vicinity of the fourth power station . Moreover, in such a situation, in spite of the war alarm, several waterproof hatches and necks in the area of ​​damage were not lifted at all. By 15:30 the battleship stopped: by that time 3500 tons of sea water had penetrated the stern, the ship had a trim on the stern of about three meters and a roll on the starboard side of about four and a half degrees.

            Another:

            On December 14th, in the Strait of Messina, Vittorio Veneto joined the battle with the submarine HMS Urge, and she fired three torpedoes. One of them exploded on the port side in the area of ​​the aft 381-mm tower. The explosion force of 340 kg of TNT broke through the constructive underwater protection: a 13x6 meter hole was formed in the outer skin, and the ship took 2032 tons of sea water and received a roll of three and a half degrees to the starboard side and a trim of about 2,2 meters. Several dozen people were killed, about the same was injured. The roll was reduced to one degree, but the trim could not be completely eliminated until it was returned to the base.

            The Germans just rewrote the logbook and ordered everyone to be silent)))
            1. Denis_469
              Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 12
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Here, one can not do with one fake KTB))


              The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy was aware of the AWOL exit of the battleship, and therefore one fake of the ship's KTB would have been enough to show Hitler. And even on the Internet there are aerial photographs of repair work by divers at the side of the battleship after the K-21 attack on it.
              In addition, the commander of the Northern Fleet was also informed by the British that the battleship was damaged and became in repair.

              Well, even the smallest thing - a fully damaged battleship turbine that failed. There are no miracles. before the attack, the ship was fully operational, and during the PQ-18 it was not entirely operational. And this is under the condition that there were no events that would lead to a turbine breakdown, according to the battleship KTB and KTB OKM. Between the ship’s exit against PQ-17 and the convoy PQ-18, the battleship did not have any events other than the attack of our boat.

              Well, plus to this, the dock Tirpitsa used to be in Roslyakovo (without 3 sections that were sent to Polyarny), and his documents are in the archive of captured documents. Those who were there say that the record of the docking of the battleship is also there. And the dock itself was decommissioned and towed for cutting last year.
              1. Santa Fe
                8 November 2013 16: 41
                +2
                Quote: Denis_469
                In addition, the commander of the Northern Fleet was also informed by the British that the battleship was damaged and became in repair.

                Where?? When???
                About the fact that it is damaged by XE minisubmarins or Lancaster from the Berry airport)))
                Quote: Denis_469
                And even on the Internet there are aerial photographs of repair work by divers at the side of the battleship after the K-21 attack on it.

                This is all baby talk. After a torpedo hit in the LA half measures can not do. And the damages themselves (destroyed side skin, roll, trim) would certainly attract the attention of Norwegian observers
                1. Denis_469
                  Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 51
                  +1
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  Where?? When???

                  Read the memories of the commander of the Federation Council. He writes about it directly.

                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  This is all baby talk. After a torpedo hit in the LA half measures can not do. And the damages themselves (destroyed side skin, roll, trim) would certainly attract the attention of Norwegian observers

                  Once again - try to guess how observers could get there (to the place of basing the battleship)? You are now engaged in fingering without knowing anything about basing the battleship and terrain features.
            2. Kars
              Kars 8 November 2013 16: 28
              +4
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              The Germans just rewrote the logbook and ordered everyone to be silent)))

              Especially to the Norwegian Resistance fighters))))


              Not Tirits of course, but the dimensions and class are approximately similar.
              1. Denis_469
                Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 32
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                Especially to the Norwegian Resistance fighters))))

                Before flogging nonsense, think about the fact that she can be hurt.

                In general, try to turn on the brain and look at the parking lot of the battleship and guess what kind of Makar there could get the Norwegian resistance.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 8 November 2013 16: 58
                  +4
                  Quote: Denis_469
                  Before flogging nonsense, think about the fact that she can be hurt.

                  Yah)))))
                  1. Denis_469
                    Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 12
                    +1
                    This is the official German shot to which the Norwegians have no place.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 8 November 2013 17: 26
                      +2
                      Quote: Denis_469
                      This is the official German snapshot to which the Norwegians have no place.

                      Where is it in Germany?

                      By the way, is Bogen Bay also Germany?
                      1. Denis_469
                        Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Where is it in Germany?

                        German - this means that it was made by a German photographer, but not necessarily in Germany.

                        You can laugh for a long time, but at that time Bogen Bay was also in Germany. Because Norway was incorporated into Germany at that time.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 8 November 2013 17: 38
                        +3
                        Quote: Denis_469
                        Germanic - that means it was made by a German photographer,

                        Quote: Denis_469
                        This is the official German shot to which the Norwegians have no place.

                        So all the same in Norway or not? Albeit included in the Third Reich?
                        Quote: Denis_469
                        Because Norway was incorporated into Germany at that time.

                        I never heard of such a pro if it's honest. But this has little relevance to the topic.
                      3. Denis_469
                        Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 41
                        -2
                        Quote: Kars
                        So all the same in Norway or not? Albeit included in the Third Reich?

                        In 1940-1945, before the defeat of Germany, there was no such country as Norway. Whether you like it or not, it was part of Germany.
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 8 November 2013 17: 49
                        +4
                        Quote: Denis_469
                        In 1940-1945, before the defeat of Germany, there was no such country as Norway. Whether you like it or not, it was part of Germany.


                        Therefore, the Norwegian resistance must be renamed the German resistance)))))
  2. Gamdlislyam
    Gamdlislyam 8 November 2013 16: 29
    +3
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    This means that in German documents there is not a single confirmation of Lunin's attack - the Germans did not even see traces of torpedoes

    Dear colleague Oleg, in his report Lunin did not claim to be in Tirpitz. He indicated that he had fired four torpedoes from the forage apparatus and, after that, he had carried off to a depth. After some time, they caught on a boat two explosions. The Germans did not pursue the boat.
    But, the question arises, why on the same day the German squadron abruptly changed its course to the opposite and after a few days hid in skerries?
    1. Denis_469
      Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 33
      +3
      Quote: Gamdlislyam
      But, the question arises, why on the same day the German squadron abruptly changed its course to the opposite and after a few days hid in skerries?

      For the same reason that 1 turbine was covered on the battleship. And 1 destroyer separated from the squadron at sea and went straight to Germany for dock repairs.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Denis_469
          Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 04
          +1
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Dreamer

          And what is the mind missing to see the Z-24 moving? It's not hard. Absolutely.
          1. Kars
            Kars 8 November 2013 17: 11
            +1
            Quote: Denis_469
            And what is the mind missing to see the Z-24 moving?

            And what did the torpedo hit in it? By the way, in Norway there are no docks to repair a turbine on Tirpice.


            “Tirnitsn after
            return nz
            unsuccessful hike in
            intercept convoy RO-17.
            July 5, 1942 Snnmock
            made with a destroyer
            "Theodor Rndel ..
            1. Denis_469
              Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 18
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              And that torpedo hit it too?


              Lunin assumed that the destroyer that turned could have intercepted 1 torpedo. Then it was a matter of technique to find out whether who intercepted or not. This is not difficult. It's just that after being hit by a torpedo, repairs are always required. And it was necessary to see which of the squadron's destroyers and when they went for repairs. And here it is - literally right after the attack of "K-21" this destroyer separated from the squadron and went to Germany for repairs.

              Quote: Kars
              By the way, in Norway there are no docks to repair the turbine on Tirpice.

              The floating dock was there for a dock repair. But I won’t say anything about the turbine. But the dock Tirpitz, who was standing in Roslyakovo, was dragged from Norway.
              1. Kars
                Kars 8 November 2013 17: 24
                +4
                Quote: Denis_469
                then the turned destroyer could intercept 1 torpedo

                How much do you say Z-24 displacement? And after a torpedo hit under its own power in Germany for thorough repairs?
                Quote: Denis_469
                The floating dock was there for dock repair

                There were no floating docks there - in order to carry out the current repair from Germany, Remsudno came a month later, and she could make a caisson.
                Quote: Denis_469
                But the dock Tirpitz, who was standing in Roslyakovo, was dragged from Norway.
                I don’t know what they dragged there, and what kind of floating ship is it for a 50-ton ship? Of the type? And it wasn’t noticed from the hills, and by air reconnaissance?
                1. Denis_469
                  Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  How much do you say displacement Z-24?

                  More than 2000 tons.

                  Quote: Kars
                  There were no floating docks there - in order to carry out the current repair from Germany, Remsudno came a month later, and she could make a caisson.

                  Here are just PD-1 in Roslyakovo was not aware of this, like the SRH leadership in dwarfs.

                  Quote: Kars
                  I don’t know what they dragged there, and what kind of floating ship is it for a 50 ton ship?

                  Well, at least he immediately said that you did not know. There was a big dock. He stood to the right of the PD-80. In it, usually submarines docked. Only in Roslyakovo he stood already without 3 sections. At least when I visited it myself.
                2. Kars
                  Kars 8 November 2013 17: 47
                  +1
                  Quote: Denis_469
                  More than 2000 tons.

                  And such a kid withstood the hit of a Soviet torpedo? Did he even reach Germany without entering the port?
                  Quote: Denis_469
                  Here are just PD-1 in Roslyakovo was not aware of this, like the SRH leadership in dwarfs.

                  What does this mean?
                  Quote: Denis_469
                  There was a big dock. Standing to the right of PD-80

                  And not near the PD-79? And how big?
                  Quote: Denis_469
                  Only in Roslyakovo he stood already without 3 sections.
                  God be with him what stood in Roslyakovo, where he was dragged from and so on - what with the fact that the Allies did not notice such a small structure


                  But how repair is described after the attack of mini-submarines

                  The leadership of the war at sea came to
                  the conclusion that the transfer to Germany of the ship,
                  deprived of the opportunity to move sa
                  [/ comment-show]
              2. Kars
                Kars 8 November 2013 17: 47
                +1
                efforts by the end of December major damage
                on the hull were eliminated,
                watercourse eliminated, ship
                was leveled and had a normal draft.
                However, part of the damaged and dented
                frames had to be left in
                same condition as replacing them
                did not appear without docking
                possible.
                The most important task was to restore
                power plant ship:
                all three valolinia foundations turb
                and n, pipelines, valves, etc.
                The orientation was a serious problem.
                shafts, until that moment never been carried out
                without using dry
                dock. Their deviation from the norm reached
                1 3 cm, but German specialists managed
                to solve this problem! After
                shaft lines were exposed, was
                debugging of turbines with their foundations,
                gearboxes and thrust bearings
                ikov. Cracks in turbine casings
                and auxiliary mechanisms were
                fixed by electric welding,
                cast parts had to be replaced. Skew
                turbine rotors has been straightened
                by their careful one-sided
                heating, however, rotational speed
                had to be limited to
                2800 rpm, which PR l led
  • Santa Fe
    8 November 2013 16: 48
    0
    Quote: Gamdlislyam
    But, the question arises, why on the same day the German squadron abruptly changed its course to the opposite and after a few days hid in skerries?

    There are no secrets here.

    On the day the Tirpitz went to sea, the Germans intercepted the British order to disperse the convoy. Chasing single transports is the lot of aviation and submarines. The battleship immediately returned to base.
    1 destroyer separated from the squadron at sea and went straight to Germany for dock repairs.

    With a broken side around Scandinavia, under its own power)))
    1. Denis_469
      Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 58
      +1
      A Z-24 was also damaged by a radiogram, which went straight to Germany for dock repairs. Is this a radio message so strong that it destroyed a turbine on a battleship and sent a destroyer for repair? Isn't it funny to yourself from such "baby talk"? Or just don't know the facts?
      1. Santa Fe
        8 November 2013 17: 22
        0
        Quote: Denis_469
        A Z-24 also received damage due to a radiogram that it went immediately to Germany for dock repair

        It looks like you made it up

        July 08-10.07.1942, 24: Covered by the destroyers Friedrich Ihn and Z7 and the torpedo boats T15 and TXNUMX the heavy cruiser Lützow transfers to Trondheim.
        July 14-15.07.1942, 24: Mine laying operation in the North Sea by light cruiser Köln and destroyers Friedrich Ihn, Friedrich Eckoldt and ZXNUMX.
        July 15-17.07.1942, 24: Friedrich Ihn and ZXNUMX return to Germany.


        Before heading to Germany, he still put mines and escorted Luttsov to Trondheim. And all with a broken side!
        1. Denis_469
          Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 25
          0
          I don’t know where you got this nonsense from, but I took my information from German documents.

          It is possible that in the transition he really did it. But this is only in passing for the transition to Germany. Moreover, Luttsov himself was a wounded animal at that time.
          1. Santa Fe
            8 November 2013 17: 35
            +1
            Quote: Denis_469
            Moreover, Luttsov himself was a wounded animal at that time.

            Therefore, Luttsov did not expose any mines. He barely crawled
            1. Denis_469
              Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 39
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Therefore, Luttsov did not expose any mines. He barely crawled

              But Luttsov could not put mines - this is a battleship, which did not even have mine rails.
          2. Santa Fe
            8 November 2013 17: 52
            0
            Quote: Denis_469
            but I took my information from German documents.

            Wow!

            After all, an hour ago, you argued with foam at the mouth that the Germans falsified KTB))))
            1. Denis_469
              Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 55
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Wow! After all, an hour ago, you argued with foam at the mouth that the Germans falsified KTB))))

              Fake, so what? If you think that it is not possible to establish the fact of falsification and find real information, then you are mistaken very much. Sometimes the fact of falsification of a document is a sign of the direction in which you need to dig.
        2. Denis_469
          Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 34
          +1
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          And all with a broken side!

          There is an accelerated repair technology consisting in the welding of steel sheets for breakdowns in the dock. It takes all this together with setting and leaving the dock 12-14 hours. During the Second World War, our shipyards in the Northern Fleet worked with allied ships in this way. And the failure was the loss of only 1 British cruiser. But he was out of luck. The Germans had the same emergency repair technology. And until July 8, he could well fix up a hole for the waterproof case.
          1. Santa Fe
            8 November 2013 17: 47
            -1
            There is an accelerated repair technology consisting in the welding of steel sheets

            How about the deep-seated alignment of the bent shaft of the screws, as well as repair and return to the place of turbines removed from the place.
            Quote: Denis_469
            And until July 8, he could well fix up a hole for the waterproof case.

            But I’m sure that everything was much simpler - Lunin, as usual, missed
            1. Denis_469
              Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 49
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              But I claim that it was much easier for the heights - Lunin, as usual, missed

              You can say anything - we have a democracy. And I'm not going to limit you to the right to make mistakes, and I can’t do it even if I wanted to. You can also claim that the Earth is flat and stands on 3 pillars - and that will also be your right. Democracy however.
  • Cynic
    Cynic 8 November 2013 18: 08
    0
    Quote: Gamdlislyam
    But, the question arises, why on the same day the German squadron abruptly changed its course

    Scared, that's all!
    In general, German sailors are so shy, so shy!
  • tank 34
    tank 34 8 November 2013 17: 23
    0
    Correctly. No muddy, as the author put it from K-21 HISTORY !!! The Tirpitz was torpedoed from this particular boat. In general, I agree with the author that there was no place for boats of the K series in the Baltic. However, this does not implore the feat of the Soviet submariners. The selection is really interesting. Especially when it comes to German submarines.
  • antonio
    antonio 8 November 2013 21: 03
    +1
    And the fact that this story was developed by the visionary from the story of V. Pikul in his requiem PQ-17, the German compound turned back after bearing a radiogram from a British submarine. The Germans simply did not notice the attack and radio transmission of K-21
  • Walker1975
    Walker1975 8 November 2013 17: 09
    +1
    Good article. The only question is: where are the Japanese submarines? In a film about scuba divers, I recently saw information that the Japanese developed submarine aircraft carriers - boats that could carry several aircraft that they let out in the air. It would be interesting to learn more about them.
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 21: 41
      +2
      Quote: Walker1975
      boats that could carry several aircraft that they let out in the freeboard position.

      It’s a pity that they say so little about them

      In September 1942, a miniature seaplane from the I-25 submarine symbolically "bombed" the forests of Oregon, dropping two incendiary phosphorus tiles onto America. The first and only bombing of the continental United States for the entire war carried a much deeper implication: the Japanese General Staff seriously discussed Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night — using submarine aircraft carriers to spray plague spores, anthrax and other abominations from Japanese military laboratories on the US West Coast. Along the way, you should bomb the gateways of the Panama Canal.

      Well?
      Does anyone else have a desire to cry about Hiroshima and feel sorry for the poor Japanese ?? !! Samurai prepared the same for the civilian population of the United States, but, alas, the strength was not enough.
      1. Walker1975
        Walker1975 9 November 2013 00: 22
        +1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Does anyone else have a desire to cry about Hiroshima and feel sorry for the poor Japanese ?? !! Samurai prepared the same for the civilian population of the United States, but, alas, the strength was not enough.


        Yes, in fact, they cut the Chinese into hundreds of thousands ... Of course, there are many Chinese ... but still people
        1. Evgan
          Evgan 10 November 2013 16: 25
          +1
          Exactly. Moreover, if the Americans didn’t drop these bombs, how many more would be fought for both our and the Yankees? The issue is controversial, controversial, but there would certainly be thousandths and thousandths of losses. In addition, as shown by the Tokyo bombing, conventional bombs can cause a lot of trouble.
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop 10 November 2013 16: 39
            +3
            Quote: EvgAn
            if the Americans didn’t drop these bombs, how many more would be fought for both our and the Yankees? The issue is controversial, controversial, but there would certainly be thousandths and thousandths of losses.

            Do not confuse to the limit the "tolerant" and soft-bodied modern Europe with Japan of 1945. A rigid imperial vertical, imbued to the limit with the bushido code. Was THEM trying to scare them with losses? Samurai? lol
            1. Evgan
              Evgan 11 November 2013 09: 50
              +1
              Well, because they scared me. It was after our victorious attack on the Kwantung Army and after these two bombs that the Japanese agreed to capitulate. How else? Either strangle Japan for a long time in the blockade, or take the islands by landing - and this is already a big sacrifice.
  • Rinat 1
    Rinat 1 8 November 2013 08: 20
    +5
    It is interesting why in the article there is no boat of the Shch series (shyuk) I read a lot that these boats were more reliable and brought quite a lot of benefit.
    1. Tyumen
      Tyumen 8 November 2013 09: 31
      +6
      PIKE!!! No offense, Rinat.
      1. Rinat 1
        Rinat 1 8 November 2013 12: 59
        0
        Thank you, typo apparently
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 8 November 2013 08: 47
    +3
    To the author +. A very good article and 56 looks very much in the photo!
  • Aubert
    Aubert 8 November 2013 09: 18
    +5
    About IX series boats forgotten. And they sank more ships in the Atlantic (both in quantity and in tonnage) than sevens.
  • Eugeniy_369
    Eugeniy_369 8 November 2013 09: 23
    +8
    Our successes in the use of the submarine fleet during the 2 MV are modest, and all the more pleasant because the author paid much attention in his article to the types of submarines of the USSR. Thank!
    German type VII boat looks a bit like a scalpel (my subjective bully ), this "knife" and chikal what . By and large, the Allies flooded the Atlantic with anti-submarine ships and aircraft, the author correctly wrote "The Germans ran out of ships faster than their opponents."
    In the Pacific, the situation was quite the opposite, where the Allies threw a lot of boats into the communications of the Japanese, although Rossko in his book extolled the equipment and professionalism of the American submarine fleet, but I think this is the moment when the quantity turned into quality. The Yapis had no strength left to create an anti-aircraft defense, they could not be compared with the Atlantic, it was all teeming with ships and planes of the allies.
    1. Vyalik
      Vyalik 8 November 2013 14: 36
      +4
      I read that the mistake of the Japanese was that their submarines hunted more for warships, not for supply vessels. And the Americans were more likely to destroy ships and given that the Japanese had not very many resources, and especially problems with fuel in the end ended up being fatal.
      1. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 8 November 2013 16: 12
        +2
        Quote: Wyalik
        their submarines hunted more for warships, not for supply vessels. And the Americans more than trashed the court

        The tasks of the submarine fleet of amers changed during the war, maybe the priority in the sinking of transports and made its contribution (as well as more advanced technology, equipment), but I think the main thing is still the industrial potential of the United States. I heard the phrase that "Japan lost the war when it attacked Pearl Harbor" I agree with her completely yes .
  • Vasia kruger
    Vasia kruger 8 November 2013 09: 43
    +1
    Great article! Thank you!
  • Andreitas
    Andreitas 8 November 2013 10: 01
    +2
    The Germans, as always, are ahead of the rest in terms of correct ideas.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 8 November 2013 10: 18
    +9
    ... From the fifth salvo, Soviet sailors managed to sink U-1708. The second hunter, having received two direct hits, smoked and turned away - his 20 mm anti-aircraft guns could not compete with the "hundredths" of the secular underwater cruiser. Having scattered the Germans like puppies, K-3 quickly disappeared behind the horizon on a 20-knot move ...
    Does the author know the origin of the name of the Gadzhiev bay in the Kola Bay?
    And why, even armed with machine guns alone, was a threat to submarines?

    .. "Electrobots" opened a new milestone in the history of the submarine fleet, defining the development vector of submarines in the postwar years ...
    ... and these "wunderwaffens" served in the USSR Navy until the end of the 50s of the last century, when the latter were decommissioned from the fleet due to wear and tear - there was simply nothing to replace the worn-out materiel. According to some parameters, optics, for example, our submarines reached the level of the XXI series only by the end of the 70s.
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 12: 36
      +4
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      Does the author know the origin of the name of the Gadzhiev bay in the Kola Bay?

      K-23 was damaged by German hunters and lost the ability to dive
      A couple of hours later it was bombed by Junkers
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      And why, even armed with machine guns alone, was a threat to submarines?

      Are you talking about the Amersky PB4Y-1 long-range patrol aircraft, which is also the Consolidated B-24D Liberator?

      Because a dozen Browning 50 gauges did not bode well. The penetration power of 12,7 mm bullets is such that it could damage the rugged body, rudder drives and ballast tank valves
      Quote: stalkerwalker
      .. "Electrobots" opened a new milestone in the history of the submarine fleet, defining the development vector of submarines in the postwar years ...
      ... and these "wunderwaffen" served in the USSR Navy until the end of the 50s of the last century

      In their image and likeness, Soviet boats of project 613 were built

      The Americans also embraced German ideas. Most of the boats were modernized under the Greater Underwater Propulsion Program (GUPPY) project - a new streamlined wheelhouse, six battery groups - all similar to the Electrobot

      Do you believe it or not, but that’s how Gato, Balao and Tench began to look after the modernization of GUPPY (mid-late 1950s)
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 10 November 2013 16: 51
        +3
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        K-23 was damaged by German hunters and lost the ability to dive
        A couple of hours later it was bombed by Junkers

        Thank you.
        Add Trail of solarium stretched a train.
        Conclusion. It was possible to use full-time artillery only in the absence of return fire.
        1. Santa Fe
          10 November 2013 17: 39
          +2
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          Conclusion. It was possible to use full-time artillery only in the absence of return fire.

          Well, there was a confrontation between the submarine and aviation
          Any German minesweeper and hunter could shoot Katyusha and 3 100 mm guns, but in terms of air defense she was frankly weak

          I wonder how that battle would end if there were some Flac bot instead of K-23.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 10 November 2013 17: 46
            +3
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Well, there was a confrontation between the submarine and aviation

            Stealth is the main quality of the sub. If a submarine cannot "hide from sight" by diving into the depths, the price of this combat unit is worthless. Those. no need to "substitute" and risk losing their fighting qualities.
            1. Santa Fe
              10 November 2013 18: 29
              +1
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              If a submarine cannot “hide from sight” by diving into the depths, the price of this combat unit is worthless.

              in this case, the price is low for all submarines of World War II
              "Gato", "Katyusha" and "Type VIIC" spent 90% of the time on the surface

              (snorkels appeared only at the end of the war, and even then not on all boats)

              It was not for nothing that the Germans created such boats (Flak-boot to cover the "cash cows" and U-bots at the crossing over the Bay of Biscay teeming with British aviation). This one, incidentally, shot down 4 planes
  • Kars
    Kars 8 November 2013 11: 25
    +4
    And Gato most of all impress me.

    Submarine Barb sank the aircraft carrier and derailed the train)))
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 12: 22
      +3
      Poster))) Check out the Amer poster with floating airplanes)))
      Here is another one:
  • antonio
    antonio 8 November 2013 12: 44
    +1
    What about Japanese submarines? Why are they forgotten? Well, what side did the M series boats hang in this row? Apart from the possibility of transportation by railways, there was nothing good in them. For that matter Leninits were more appropriate in this series. And in the forefront are American and German submariners, the rest have not achieved such successes close ..
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 13: 09
      +1
      Quote: antonio
      Well, what side did the M series boats hang in this row? In addition to the possibility of transportation by railways, they did not differ in good

      How so! What about the price?
      + small crew, low fuel consumption, economy in maintenance

      At the same time, the Babies showed a rather high combat efficiency, especially in comparison with other Soviet boats
      Quote: antonio
      And in the forefront are American and German submariners, the rest have not achieved such successes close ..

      But what about British boats ??

      Especially the middle submarines are Undines (type U) and Vandals (type V).
      Torpedoed the battleship Vittorio Veneto, sank the Italian cruisers Armando Diaz, Giovannni Bande Nere, Bolzano (out of service until the end of the war), many destroyers, submarines and transports on communications in the Mediterranean and North Sea. according to sonar data (without the help of a periscope).

      + undoubted success of the "T" series submarines

      Raised from the bottom of the deckhouse of the submarine "Dakar" (formerly HMS Totem), Haifa, Israel
      British boats were so good they were in use until the mid-1970s
      1. antonio
        antonio 8 November 2013 13: 33
        +1
        Let me disagree with you here, American submarines completed a strategic task, it was they who brought the Japanese Empire out of the war, destroyed everything that could swim from the Japanese, after the war the Japanese had to use warships for repatriation, since they simply did not have a merchant fleet. By the summer of 45, experiments were being carried out on Hakaido to obtain gasoline from the roots of pine trees ... And the boats of the M series were never considered by any of our fleet historians to be successes of domestic design thought. And already if we say that it is cheaper so "Kaiten" was cheaper, German "Negroes" and "Seals" wink
        1. Santa Fe
          8 November 2013 15: 07
          0
          Quote: antonio
          And already if we say that it is cheaper so "Kaiten" was cheaper, German "Negroes" and "Seals"

          Did they sink a lot?

          Efficiency = Cost / Result
      2. antonio
        antonio 8 November 2013 14: 11
        0
        Submarines of the "M" type in the course of combat activities made 469 military campaigns (49 boats took part in total), their own losses of 29 boats (2 of them were blown up in Libau, one died on the transition) combat losses amounted to 53%, the number of torpedo attacks 155, successful attacks 19 (12,2%) is the worst indicator of all Soviet boats that took part in the war.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 November 2013 14: 56
          +2
          Quote: antonio
          the number of torpedo attacks 155, successful attacks 19 (12,2%) - this is the worst indicator of all Soviet boats

          I met other data:
          Submarine type "Baby" was sunk into the war 61 vessels with a total displacement of 135512 brt, damaged 8 ships with a total displacement of 20131 brt, sunk 10 warships and auxiliary vessels, damaged 2 ships. This amounted to 16,9% of all sunk submarines of the USSR and 12,4% of damaged enemy ships
          http://book.uraic.ru/elib/pl/lodki/malye.htm

          another episode:
          Submarine "M-51" series VI Black Sea Fleet took part in the Kerch-Feodosiya operation in December 1941. Together with the submarine "Shch-201" (commander Lieutenant-Commander AI Strizhak), the submarine "M-51" under the command of Lieutenant Commander VM Prokofiev carried out navigation and hydrographic support for the landing of troops in Feodosia, captured by the enemy. Submarine "Shch-201", placing luminous buoys with red and white lights on the fairway, then using a searchlight beam oriented ships with a landing party approaching the Feodosiya Gulf.
          Quote: antonio
          own losses 29 boats

          Damage comparable to the loss of 2-3 cruising boats. The harsh truth of war
          1. antonio
            antonio 8 November 2013 15: 21
            0
            I have come across these data, in my opinion the publication "Soviet Submarine Shipbuilding", written in the 80s. unfortunately I do not remember the authors.
            The data that I cited from the book "Stalin's Revenge" exmo publishing house 2010 authors M.E. Morozov, K.L. Kulagin
            1. Santa Fe
              8 November 2013 15: 26
              0
              Quote: antonio
              I have come across these data, in my opinion the publication "Soviet Submarine Shipbuilding", written in the 80s. unfortunately I do not remember the authors.

              Dmitriev

              Think the data is overpriced?
              1. antonio
                antonio 8 November 2013 20: 34
                0
                Yes, dogmas prevailed over the author, and we rely on objective facts. To my deepest regret, Dmitriev’s data does not find documentary evidence .. Although I would really like to !!
  • Corsair
    Corsair 8 November 2013 13: 04
    +1
    Quote from the article:
    The North Sea sailors had a bit easier - as practice has shown, the effectiveness of combat use of Katyushas complicated by poor training of personnel and lack of initiative command.


    But with this conclusion of the author I allow myself to disagree ...
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 13: 12
      0
      Quote: Corsair
      But with this conclusion of the author I allow myself to disagree ...

      how can you explain such a low efficiency of type "K" boats in the Northern Fleet?
      1. antonio
        antonio 8 November 2013 13: 49
        0
        The effectiveness of torpedo attacks on boats of the K series of the Northern Fleet is 7,5% (1TP, 1BO). The reasons for the poor performance of the boats are as follows: 7 out of 23 attacks (30,5%) were carried out from a distance of more than 16 kbt, which is explained by the large dimensions of the boats, another 6 were carried out against small vessels. 10 volleys (43,5%) carried out in conditions when success could have been achieved, however, hits were noted only in two cases ..
        Losses of boats of the Northern Fleet 5 of 6 fought since 41 years.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 November 2013 14: 59
          0
          Quote: antonio
          The reasons for the poor performance of the boats are as follows: 7 out of 23 attacks (30,5%) were carried out from a distance of more than 16 kbt, which is explained by the large dimensions of the boats, another 6 were carried out against small vessels. 10 volleys (43,5%) carried out in conditions when success could have been achieved, however, hits were noted only in two cases ..

          So what is the root cause of awkward use?
  • Denis_469
    Denis_469 8 November 2013 15: 36
    +1
    The author of something somewhere, something heard about submarines and nothing more. Although the article is quite suitable for dummies. It should be called "Submarines for Dummies."
    For those who have no idea about how the "best" of submarines in wars is determined: by the tonnage they have filled. You can hope for as long as you like about circumstances, water areas, and so on, but tonnage is tonnage.

    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    So what is the root cause of awkward use?

    The fact that Morozov was paid to publish the data necessary for the West. Because Morozov himself in research is slightly less than zero. He is not able to even read German documents and compare their data with ours.
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 15: 52
      +1
      Quote: Denis_469
      according to the tonnage that they filled.

      Reconnaissance, disembarkation of sabotage groups, rescue of downed pilots, round-the-world courier bridge "Kiel-Tokyo", supply of garrisons of the Aleutian ridge, plans for the spread of bacteriological weapons to the West. the coast of the United States ("Cherry blossoms at night"), shelling of the coast (MLRS / SLCM - depending on the era), delivery of special-purpose cargo (Operation "Stuffing"), finally, the evacuation of the top of the Reich to South America along with the gold reserve of the NSDAP ...

      Boat tasks not limited to the sinking of ships and ships of the enemy.
      Quote: Denis_469
      The fact that Morozov was paid to publish the data necessary for the West.

      What does Morozov have to do with it?

      even if we accept for truth all the declared victories of the Soviet submariners, the result will be several times lower than that of the Kriegsmarine, the Naval Forces of Great Britain and the United States Navy. Even Italians (so gouging whatsoever) - and those had higher performance

      Fritz before the end of the war took nickel out of Kirkenes - right under the nose at the main base of the Northern Fleet. Probably Golovko paid))))
      1. Denis_469
        Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 00
        +1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Reconnaissance, disembarkation of sabotage groups, rescue of downed pilots, round-the-world courier bridge "Kiel-Tokyo", supply of garrisons of the Aleutian ridge, plans for the spread of bacteriological weapons to the West. the coast of the USA ("Cherry blossoms at night"), shelling of the coast (MLRS / SLCM - depending on the era), delivery of special-purpose cargo (Operation "Stuffing"),

        These are trifles actually. One-time operations amounting to less than 1% of the total volume of operations. The influence of all these things together can be approximately 0,2% of the total contribution to the war of submarines.

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        What does Morozov have to do with it?

        In the early 1990s, he was ordered to publish the correct history of Soviet squares as part of the desovetization of historiography and the emphasis on the fact that the US and its allies defeated Germany, and not the USSR. He was told what to write, so that from afar. He wrote - and from afar.

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        even if we accept for truth all the declared victories of the Soviet submariners, the result will be several times lower than that of the Kriegsmarine, the Naval Forces of Great Britain and the United States Navy. Even Italians (so gouging whatsoever) - and those had higher performance

        With German and American boats - q, ns is worse. Our goals were small. Well, there were no convoys where there would be entirely 10000 tankers, as was the case with the Germans and Americans. But with the British and Italians, the tonnages are approximately equal.

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Fritz took nickel out of Kirkenes until the end of the war - right under the nose at the main base of the Northern Fleet

        Export - exported, but whether it was still a big question. Because the tracking of German merchant ships clearly shows their almost constant presence in repairs after the attacks of our submarines. And the fact that those ships did not die was not enough scientists worked before the war. So there were hidden defects of torpedoes, about which no one knew before my research. And now they are building warm storage for torpedoes and dragging them there. During the Second World War, nobody knew about these things and did not guess. And Lodi attacked, struck. That is what they should have done. The result already depended not only on the boats, but also on the weapon itself.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 November 2013 16: 28
          +1
          Quote: Denis_469
          These are trifles actually

          Don’t say it. What was the cost of supplying the Japanese garrisons in WWII. or tomahawks blows nowadays
          Quote: Denis_469
          In the early 1990s, he was ordered to publish the correct history of Soviet pl

          This is all baby talk. Take Dmitriev - the result will not fundamentally change
          Quote: Denis_469
          But with the British and Italians, the tonnages are approximately equal.

          This is impossible
          What is the comparison of the results of British submarines based in Murmansk with boats of the SF
          I'm not talking about the fact that the Navy of the USSR during the entire war did not sink a single warship larger than the destroyer
          Quote: Denis_469
          Export - exported, but whether it was still a big question.

          1. transports freely crossed the Varanger fjord and loaded into Petsamo (Pechenga), which in itself is a disturbing fact
          2. Germans are not Yankees. they did not have the opportunity to quickly compensate for the losses

          What about the "successes" of the Black Sea Fleet and the interception of convoys with retreating German and Romanian units from Sevastopol? The Germans were able to navigate dozens of ships and BDB without hindrance !!! The fierce massacre of Patria is already the last hours of the Crimean operation, moreover, this is the merit of aviation
          1. Denis_469
            Denis_469 8 November 2013 16: 55
            +2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Tomahawks nowadays

            In modern wars, boats have no adversaries at sea - and therefore do only this.

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            This is all baby talk. Take Dmitriev - the result will not fundamentally change

            I respect Dmitriev, but his work was written when there was not much information available now. I work with primary sources and track the movement of ships and vessels and their statement in repairs. At the time of writing Dmitriev’s book, this was impossible.

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            This is impossible

            This is reality. How would anyone not like her.

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            What is the comparison of the results of the British submarines based in Murmansk with the UFN boats not to mention the fact that the Soviet Navy did not sink any warship larger than a destroyer during the whole war

            Once again - no need to read Morozov. He came in anti-Soviet and will leave with her. The combat effectiveness of our boats was not lower than English.

            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            1. transports freely crossed the Varanger fjord and loaded into Petsamo (Pechenga), which in itself is a disturbing fact 2. Germans are not Yankees. they did not have the opportunity to quickly compensate for the losses

            No one went unhindered. Both in Petsamo and in Kirkenes, repair shops for the repair of damaged ships and ships were created. And the Germans worked well sulzhby ship lifting and repair. There was a case in 1945 when our aircraft sank a ship of 12000 gross tons. He was raised after 2 days. And after another 2 days he went to Denmark after repair. This, of course, is a rare case, but in general, the Germans, these services worked better than ours. Well, plus the defects of our torpedoes, about which during the Second World War they did not know at all.
            1. Santa Fe
              8 November 2013 18: 28
              0
              Quote: Denis_469
              about which during the Second World War did not know at all.

              what is the defect?
              lack of GOS?)))
            2. Santa Fe
              8 November 2013 21: 43
              0
              Quote: Denis_469
              There was a case in 1945 when our aircraft sank a ship of 12000 gross tons. He was raised after 2 days. And after another 2 days he went to Denmark after repair.

              Where did this happen?

              Is it right in the Varanger Fjord ?! Toda question to the SF - what did our sailors do if such rescue operations were carried out under their nose
        2. antonio
          antonio 8 November 2013 20: 43
          0
          Somehow strange dear you argue! Ships and ships damaged our boats, but did the Germans and Japanese drown? Nobody paid Morozov, the general backwardness of our industry during the war, periscopes, batteries for our boats were supplied, as I recall, by the allies (for K-boats), low-quality torpedoes ...
          1. Gamdlislyam
            Gamdlislyam 8 November 2013 22: 30
            0
            Quote: antonio
            the general backwardness of our industry during the war, periscopes, batteries for our boats were supplied, as I recall, the allies (for boats of the K series), low-quality torpedoes ...

            Dear colleague Anton, the Americans had really low-quality torpedoes. In 1943, they were forced to put into production old torpedo models, because 3 of 4 torpedoes of new modifications did not explode when hit on target. Americans brought to mind new torpedoes after the war.
            1. antonio
              antonio 8 November 2013 23: 33
              +1
              Yes, I agree with you that all Americans and Germans suffered from torpedoes (remember the Norwegian company), only the Japanese with their mini-Long Lances mod. 91 avoided these problems.
  • Denis_469
    Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 00
    0
    Wrote 2 responses to posts, but they did not appear. So SWEET_SIXTEEN will remain unanswered. Apparently there is censorship about Western acting.
  • Denis_469
    Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 14
    0
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    With a broken side around Scandinavia, under its own power)))

    This is normal. Transports with holes across the Atlantic went. And nothing.
    1. Santa Fe
      8 November 2013 17: 31
      0
      How about his (Z-24) participation in the staging of mine blockage a week after drowning by Lunin))
      1. Denis_469
        Denis_469 8 November 2013 17: 42
        +1
        Fine. The ship all the same went to overhaul and simultaneously could put up defensive barriers. Judging by how he walked, his feed was intact along with mine rails. Therefore, it could well be used for this along the way.
        1. Santa Fe
          8 November 2013 18: 26
          0
          the keyword is incidentally))
      2. antonio
        antonio 8 November 2013 23: 30
        0
        according to the descriptions of the combat activity, the Z-24 damaged the hull when it struck an underwater rock in Kirkeness, and then the Z-25 hit it in the stern.
  • waisson
    waisson 8 November 2013 19: 53
    0
    excellent article thanks to the author hi
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 8 November 2013 19: 58
    +2
    Another confirmation that our grandfathers did not in vain pay hundreds of thousands of lives at the front- and broke the Reich in May 45. And if they had given respite to the Germans for a year, there would have been many times more victims. New German projects for effective submarines, jet aircraft and missiles - this would have cost several million more victims.
  • Prapor-527
    Prapor-527 8 November 2013 21: 42
    0
    It is not boats that are to be condemned, but crews ...
  • tirratore
    tirratore 8 November 2013 23: 18
    0
    power reserve of 16500 miles? 1 diesel 2200 mares eats 7.5 tons of fuel oil per day, 1 diesel 4200 15 tons. 9 knots 216 miles per day, 16500 miles, 76 days, 1140 tons of fuel oil excluding diesel fuel with a displacement of 1500 tons? This is nonsense
    1. Santa Fe
      9 November 2013 00: 54
      +1
      Quote: tirratore
      1 diesel 2200 mares eats 7.5 tons of fuel oil per day

      in economy mode, at idle speed?
      Quote: tirratore
      power reserve of 16500 miles?
      1. tirratore
        tirratore 9 November 2013 03: 45
        0
        fuel stock data pliz
        1. Santa Fe
          9 November 2013 14: 13
          0
          The Englishwoman has 131 tons. Range 8000 miles at 10 knots
  • jjj
    jjj 9 November 2013 02: 49
    +2
    Friends, Severodvinsk fleet researcher Oleg Khimanych got to the bottom of the reasons that our submariners were not so productive especially in the first months of the war. It turns out that the crews did not have practical experience in torpedo firing. The British came and taught the basics.
    According to K-21, Oleg Borisovich dug up a curious fact in German documents. During the transition of the boat from Molotovsk to the north, a German submarine tried to intercept it. But unsuccessfully. It was bad weather. Moreover, our Germans did not notice.
    Let's digress a little from the fleet. Lancaster flew to sink Tirpitz not only from Yagodnik. They all did not fit there. Some of the aircraft were based at the new airfield in Talagi, where the main airport of Arkhangelsk is now.
    Back to the fleet. We also had mine barriers L. They were distilled to Molotovsk along inland waterways. They fell into the White Sea from the Northern Dvina. So, the L-2 mine layer participated in the underwater position in the tests of a marine nuclear explosion near Novaya Zemlya. The boat received almost no damage. The rams on its board remained alive. And after the tests, the boat still served.
  • okroshka79
    okroshka79 10 November 2013 02: 00
    +1
    It is noticed that the author of the article loves to write about the navy. But it seems that he never served in the navy. The navy is love, but not a hobby. From what sources, one asks, is the statement made about the poor training of submariners of the "K" type submarines? Did they have a different course of combat training? And in general, where does this information come from? What does it mean - lack of initiative in command? Sorry, but such unfounded statements cause only indignation. Yes, at the initial stage of the war, the command, due to the lack of experience in waging war (and the Germans began to wage it a year and a half earlier), made mistakes in planning the use of submarines, no one denies this, but not lack of initiative. Further, the author of the article literally enthusiastically applauds the German submariners who fought on the PL VII series, without going into the reasons for their success. And it should be analyzed in more detail. For example, our submariners fought in conditions of strong anti-submarine defense of enemy convoys, while the Germans achieved great success in sinking allied ships while they were traveling alone and without convoys, which was in the first years of 2 MV. And everything happened exactly the opposite, as soon as the convoys were introduced and the PLO was organized (for some reason, the author of the article considers these arguments untenable and gives a completely indistinct argument). In addition, the Baltic submariners were locked in the Gulf of Finland by the most powerful anti-aircraft missile system, and even then, with heavy losses, they nevertheless broke through into the open sea and solved combat missions. And in the North, all German convoys passed through the inland Norwegian waters through fjords covered by islands, and the open sections of their routes were covered with powerful minefields, where it was extremely difficult for our North Sea submariners to break through. Therefore, like this, "naked" to compare who "heated" whom more is completely meaningless. The author of the article did not mention our "L" type submarines at all, although they were the ones who had the greatest success, in particular the "L-3" submarine, commander P. Grishchenko. Article - two points!
    1. Santa Fe
      10 November 2013 15: 14
      -1
      Quote: okroshka79
      Article - two points!

      But what a great comment you have left! THX
      Quote: okroshka79
      For example, our submariners fought in conditions of strong anti-submarine defense convoys

      Fortunately, the Soviet submariners did not manage to find out what a strong ASW is - when 10 enemy ships and 10 Catalin with radars are looking for each submarine. Tactic "swamp" (after the report of the attack, a circle was drawn, inside which there is 100% a German boat - it did not have time to go far. The zone was cordoned off by a dozen destroyers and cleaned up inside by a dozen ships and aircraft) Catalina and Sunderlands with radars and air analyzers, corvettes of the " Hunt "and" Flower ", escort aircraft carriers, ... Soviet submariners were very lucky that they did not know all this
      Quote: okroshka79
      mistakes were made in planning the use of the pl, no one denies this, but not the lack of initiative

      The lack of initiative was complete. Otherwise, the poorly trained and somehow manned fleet suffered terrible losses, which, in turn, entailed anger and sanctions from Moscow on the head of the command
      Quote: okroshka79
      And in the North, all German convoys passed through Norwegian inland waters through fjords covered by islands, and the open sections of their routes were covered by powerful minefields, where it was extremely difficult for our submariners to break through

      Mlyn, you, as you listen, melancholy-cod
      Whining
      Quote: okroshka79
      while the German achieved great success in sinking the ships of the Allies, while they followed alone and without convoys, which was in the first years of 2 MV

      This phrase shows that you are a lover of arguing about about which you have no idea

      The peak of the Allied losses from the actions of the German submarines occurred in 1942 - this year the Germans sank more ships than in all 2,5 of the previous year. Tell me that in 1942 there were no convoys?
      They sank more in 1943 than in the first years of the war.

      Even in 1944 and 1945, the effectiveness of German submarines was several times higher than that of the Soviet Navy. See the table, these are the data from the Shergin's handbook, 1955 edition:
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 10 November 2013 17: 22
        +6
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        The lack of initiative was complete. Otherwise, the poorly trained and somehow manned fleet suffered terrible losses, which, in turn, entailed anger and sanctions from Moscow on the head of the command

        I would like to add the following.
        According to the DCBF.
        Events 1939-1940 showed that the actions of the fleet, to put it mildly, were not up to par. The battleship Marat received the first serious damage.
        1941th. "Tallinn crossing". A tragedy that claimed more than one ship, more than one thousand lives. And again the command "wrinkled" one place, not wanting to report on the real situation of the Tallinn GVMB. G. Rudel disabled the battleship "Marat" as a ship, already on the roadstead of Kronshdadt. Until the end of the war, it served as an artillery battery.
        1942nd. The Germans "locked" the Gulf of Finland. But orders to go to sea PLPL were given with the stubbornness of a maniac. The sailors did not hesitate to call the Tributsa a murderer.
        According to the CCF.
        I will say in short.
        October did not surpass Tributs. Those who wish can compare the composition of the fleet in 1941 and 1945.
        I am interested in one question - how, possessing an ABSOLUTE EXCELLENCE in surface and underwater ships, can the battle for the Black Sea be tarnished? After all, Turkey never passed a single German ship through the Bosphorus. And the Kriegsmarin did not use anything larger than the armored boats.
        Please do not inform the Luftwaffe in the Black Sea sky in advance. I have no less complaints about the effectiveness of the Soviet naval aviation of the DKBF and the Black Sea Fleet.
  • moremansf
    moremansf 10 November 2013 17: 54
    +2
    And here is our poster of WWII
    1. Santa Fe
      10 November 2013 18: 31
      +1
      Wow! Wonderful poster
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ASShur
    ASShur 8 May 2014 18: 27
    +1

    The standard crew of the K-type submarine consisted of 67 people: 10 officers, 20 foremen and 37 sailors. The 2nd compartment of the boat was reserved for the cabin company and single cabins for officers, and the 4th compartment for the cockpit and cabin of the foremen, as well as an electric galley. The rank and file officers were stationed in permanent beds in the 1st, 6th and 7th compartments.

    Provisioning tanks, containing half of the total food supply, were located in the 1st and 4th compartments, while the rest of the supply was distributed in the living compartments. There were freon refrigeration units on the boats, but due to the lack of freon they were not used. The stock of fresh water stored inside the strong case was 3 tons. Operation showed the insufficiency of this reserve, and with the help of regular desalination plants it was not possible to replenish it, therefore, since 1942, a partition for an additional 1 tons of fresh water has been equipped in surge tank No. 10.

    The boats, for the first time in the Soviet submarine fleet, had bathtubs and showers for the personnel, however, bathtubs were removed from all boats shortly after the outbreak of war, and showers were practically not used due to the low pressure of hot water and the need to save fresh water.
  • ASShur
    ASShur 8 May 2014 19: 25
    0
    For some reason, "Dönitz's little sharks" are not mentioned - revolutionary boats of the XVII type with a Walther steam-gas turbine.
  • zombirusrev
    zombirusrev 1 August 2018 16: 29
    0
    Lunin shot fodder vehicles, which were not reloaded torpedoes. Those. Before the war, engineer Ledin invented a new explosive (see http://www.sovnarkom.ru/BOOKS/MUHIN/STALIN_1/muhi
    n_st_04.htm) is 1.6 times more powerful than the old one, but our “naval commander” Kuznetsov did not force the reloading of naval ammunition. As a result, Tirpitz only hurt, not drowned.
    "
    Naval commander Kuznetsov

    Given the importance of what E.G. did Ledin, back in 1940, the Soviet Labor and Defense Council adopted a resolution to equip the combat departments of Soviet torpedoes with TGA explosives.

    And in 1942, Ledin, already engaged in a matter of which below, found out that the Soviet submarine K-21, under the command of the captain of the second rank N.A. Lunin, two torpedoes hit the German battleship Tirpitz, but he did not sink. Concerned that Soviet torpedoes were not equipped with TGA explosives, Ledin wrote a letter to the Navy commissar Admiral N.G. Kuznetsov, comparing the Tirpitz attack with the Royal Oak attack. Kuznetsov showed a "lively" participation in this matter, he personally wrote in a letter: "To comrade Shibaev: Royal Oak is old. But why not equip it? Kuznetsov." Further, Ledin writes on his own behalf: “This was the end of the matter. And only after the war in the equipment of mine-torpedo armaments did the time come for radical improvements that significantly increased its effectiveness.”

    So, in contrast to the "victim of Stalinism" Admiral Kuznetsov, L.P. Beria, no one, never in one word reproached that he had ever been inattentive even
    [144]
    to anything, at least to some innovation that benefited the USSR, its economy, its defense capabilities. And Kuznetsov, as you see, two years after the decision of the service station was "not up to date" - the firepower of the Soviet navy was increased almost 1,5 times for free or not? "