Military Review

T-72B3 ... what is this beast? 2 part

339

We continue to clarify the upgrade of the T-72B3.

Start in the 1 part.

- Twin machine gun:
Coaxial machine gun unchanged - reliable FCT, PKTm. In any case, there is no data on tank versions of "Pecheneg" and "Pecheneg-2."

T-72B3 ... what is this beast? 2 part

Photo 41: PKT machine gun.

Interested in the question of how much attention was paid to the reliable isolation of spent cartridges. As practice has shown, the rupture of the bag and their scattering on the conveyor AZ can lead to non-sugar effects.

- LSD:
Fully fall into a stupor when you see an open manual control gear lock ...


42 Photo: Disassembled T-72B3 TSS.


One flaw quite naturally forms another.
Commander has NO instruments capable of controlling and aiming. Savings on the installation of a minimum (TKN-4-01) resulted in the rejection of the remote LSD.

How smart is it necessary to be a person ordering in 2011, after all local wars, a variant of such an installation ??? True, I said very gently? It was not easy for me.

Good and efficient weapon practically idle idle. It can not be used while under rifle fire.

Not only does the commander literally give up control of the tank, giving himself the gunner and mechanic, not only does he risk like a daredevil for sure, but he also plays a circus show titled: “And why haven't you riddled me yet? I have been hanging around on stage a lot of time, performing before you a stupid dance called "Preparation of the ZPU" cliff "for shooting».
See for yourself:
- Tilt the door back onto the stopper.
- Put the inner shoulder strap with TKN-3 on the stopper.
- Remove the middle shoulder strap from the stop lock from the stop and rotate the installation towards the enemy.

(To accelerate, we shoot without using a sight, and we will assume that the box is already fastened, the tape is laid in the receiver, the fuse is off, the machine gun is cocked - this is how we violate the safety rules).

- Disconnect the cradle.
- Turn the vertical flywheel with your right hand, locking it with your fingers with the lever on the flywheel handle.
- With the left hand holding the extended lever, with a force we turn the device horizontally and stop it with the whole hand, pressing this lever down, and ...

Attention drum roll ...

Without changing the position of a single muscle (!!!) of the hands, with the fingers of the left hand, we press the lever of the electric trigger. If you do not reach the desired "shooter", then repeat the horizontal lead again.

Even a trained tanker will mess around long enough for him to be guaranteed and spanked several times. A newcomer will not be able to understand the intricacies of leverage at all, and he always lacks one, third, hand.


Photo 43: Shooting from the ZPU "T-72B Rock" at the range under Chekhovo.

If for some unknown reason you remained alive, then you need to perform this procedure in the reverse order. Otherwise, the “Cliff” trunk will fly up to the heavens, and the average shoulder strap will dangle from side to side, respectively, you can forget about trying to see something through TKN-3.

As a result, the "cliff" of the tank was loved at the roadblocks, when armor was attached to reinforcements.

A competent tanker from such a machine gun will not let anyone on the effective range of fire from small arms. That's all his ability to use in the way in which he is now.

At the Tagil arms exhibition in 2013, a variant of the “urban tank” was shown, at which the commander's protective box was installed.


Photo 44: Protection commander for firing from the ZPU.

Until now I have been asking everyone: to which pursuit is this shell attached? Kind of like an internal epaulet with TKN-3. Otherwise it makes no sense ... The commander clearly has his hands and his back will fall off after an hour of torsion of this size of scrap metal.

Of course, such protection is better than nothing, but: how much is the total: TKN-3 + ZPU Utes (Kord) + barrel-shaped protection? This money is almost thrown to the wind.

Maybe all the same TKN-4C-01 and not so expensive? And maybe, finally, we will reconsider the doctrine of the use of portable weapons, re-qualifying it from anti-aircraft to auxiliary for personal protection from bearded lovers to carry a “seven” on their shoulder?


Photo 45: Machine gun installation UDP T05BV-1 T-90MS.


Armament Conclusion:
- Wonderful modernization of the entire main complex: gun + AZ + ammunition of increased power. Together, this significantly increases the tank's ability to accurately and quickly destroy the enemy.
- PKT, as always, taxis.
—ZPU is a complete disregard for the life of tankers and belittling the fire capabilities of the machine.


4. Change in fire fighting equipment


The system of fire-fighting equipment (PPO) 3ЭЦ13 "Hoarfrost" of the T-72B3 tank is a development of NPO Electromashina.


Photo 46: The composition of the kit PPO "Frost."

It is an automatic system for detecting and extinguishing a fire, ensuring the ESD mode under operating conditions.
Action: 2 multiple.
To extinguish the fires, there is an 4 cylinder with an extinguishing mixture “114B2 freon” and “13B1 freon”.
The system includes: automatic control unit В13, control panel and alarm system П13, ventilation control box КУВ11-6-1с, dynamic braking box К11. The notification of the system is made by 10 optical sensors OD1-1С and 5 with temperature sensors TD-1 (in the engine compartment).


Photo 47: layout of the 3ETS13 devices in the tank.

When the system is triggered, 90% of the extinguishing agent is ejected in a time not exceeding 150 milliseconds from the sensor signal.
The principle of the system is based on the extinguishing action of halocarbons, i.e. on the inhibitory (retarding) effect, which consists in introducing into the flame zone a negative catalyst for the oxidation reaction of hydrocarbons. The software system can be activated automatically or manually from the buttons on the control panels at the vehicle commander or the driver. In addition, the tank is equipped with two handheld carbon dioxide fire extinguishers, often referred to among tank crews as the “Hero's Dream”.

Nothing new in the software system T-72B3 is not noticeable. "Rime" was installed on armored vehicles since T-72BA (although I remember it perfectly in the second half of 90-x on T-72B). Put this equipment and T-90.
For 1989 cars of the year, of course, it is a novelty ... For those who doubt, a photo, where the characteristic contours of the 13 Pneumx control panel and alarm system of the Hoarfrost system are visible in the background. The 3, 13, 1 sub-indices are possible in 2EC11.


48 photo: OD1-1С optical sensor installed in the control compartment. Background PU PU system.

Previously, the T-72B was installed on the 3ATS11-3 system with 14-15 thermal sensors (without optical), three times a day with 3 cylinders filled with “114B2 Freon”.

Conclusion: This PPO is not a novelty, but it is undoubtedly better than the old 80’s standard models, which were replaced during modernization.

5. Protection


A. Internal:
Identify internal changes in booking a car is not possible, and rightly so. Secrets - they must be secrets in Africa too. However, it is hard to believe in the production of works in this direction: to alter the tower and the building is not at all that easy.

Reservations turret T-72 refers to the "semi-active" type. In front of the tower are two cavities located at an angle 54-55 degrees to the longitudinal axis of the gun. In each cavity there is a pack of twenty 30-mm blocks, each of which consists of 3 layers glued together. Block layers: 21-mm armor plate, 6-mm rubber layer, 3-mm metal plate. 3 thin metal plates are welded to the armor plate of each unit, providing the distance between the 22 units mm. Both cavities have an 45-mm armor plate located between the bag and the internal wall of the cavity. The total weight of the contents of the two cavities 781 kg.


49 Photo: T-72B tank filler package with reflective sheets.

The constructions of non-explosive anti-cumulative dynamic protection contain, instead of a layer of explosives between the outer inert layers of a material with a high density, an inner layer of a chemically inert material called "filler", such as plastic, rubber, paraffin, or mixtures based on them. When a CS penetrates through a "non-explosive" element, a diverging shock wave is formed in the filler, under the influence of which the material of the outer layers surrounding the point of impact is accelerated. Due to the rapid decrease in pressure in the HC, the acceleration of the outer layers is localized near the point of impact. Despite the limited size of the zone in which the accelerated movement of the outer layers of an EDS with an inert filler occurs, a decrease in the depth of the armor-piercing effect due to the destruction of the high-speed part of the CS can reach 65-70%.
Abroad, this type of protection is classified as NERA (non-energetic reactive armor).


Photo 50: One of the niches with installed packages of tank filler T-72B.


B. External:
Seeing for the first time the external protection of the T-72B3, you involuntarily fall into a complete tailspin ...
Did TTZ exactly make up the General Staff of the Russian Federation? Or maybe the enemies are warning in advance?

Let's try to consider without a mat. Why is there no "Relic"? Or is it not the end of the year 2013?

Universal complex DZ "Contact-5" was adopted in the middle 80-s. What does it mean?


Photo 51: Installing remote "Contact-5" on T-72B3.

Why is the fighting machine protected worse than the old T-72B?
WE HAVE NOT HAVE A BITTERY EXPERIENCE AT ALL RECENTLY?
No matter how paradoxical it may sound, the protection variant “Contact-1” of the T-72B tank looks ... somehow preferable.


Photo 52: Installing remote "Contact-1" on T-72B.

And this is not said for the sake of a red word.

Many tankers, who happened to "work" on orders in different "tmutrakani", would prefer a CONTINUOUS protection with old DZ blocks than any supernovaled new (even "Relic") installed in places and ... in chunks.
The fact is that there are not “Javelins” at every corner, but all sorts of bearded men who consider the G7 to be their national weapon - at least a dime a dozen. You can even stumble about them in some parts at every turn.

Tower Defense:
Why is it completely open in frontal projection?
On the one hand, they dismantled the "Moon" and ... forgot to install the DZ block? From the PCT embrasure to the nearest block there is still a football field of frontal armor.
On the other hand, the hole is left in favor of the comfort of the driver? What a caring we GSH.

But for some reason on other models of combat vehicles do not care so much. As on the same "Slingshot", for example, or T-90. So it is possible?


Photo 53: T-90 with DZ "Contact-5" around the gun mask.

Why are T-72B3 DZ blocks placed with such disregard?


Photo 54: Placing DZ blocks on the T-72B3 tower.

And the matter is not even in the holes between the blocks, but in the openness of the tower shoulder strap, which on T-72B was covered with an additional belt of “Contact-1” blocks.


Photo 55: T-72B turret protection (Army of Belarus).

And even with such protection, they hung and wound up anything:


Photo 56: Khankala. April 1996 G. Zhilin.

Why is the T-72B3 shoulder strap open to all winds?


Photo 57: Breaking the tower below blocks DZ T-72B (M). Xnumx Omsbr. The crew died. January 74

Why can not make the most complete protection?


58 Photo: Frontal protection option for the T-90 turret.

Although even on the T-90 the shoulder strap is protected worse than on the T-80U.

Photo 59: T-80 and T-90 turret shoulder strap protection scheme.

In the defense of the tower on the sides and back of the T-72B3, as always, they control the long-suffering boxes of spare parts.


Photo 60: Side protection of the tower and the hull T-72B3.



Photo 61: Terrible. January 1995. The tank commander was killed.

Again, we will independently sculpt protection from what is at hand?


Photo 62: Side protection of the tower from the drawers of the RAV tank T-72B near the village of Komsomolsk. The lattice screen with a raised OPVT pipe is clearly visible.

Protection of the roof of the tower - a separate issue.
Why was it so on T-72B?


63 photo: T-72B tower roof protection.

Why it became so?


64 photo: T-72B3 tower roof protection.

The idea of ​​the GSH is not clear ...
- If this is a defense in a large-scale war, then it will not help in any way against cluster munitions aviation and MLRS large caliber WTO regime. By the way, the anti-nuclear bullet also disappeared.
“If this is protection from bearded men with the G7, then they ... will just laugh while looking at this protection!”
They searched for unprotected places.


Photo 65: Grozny. January 1995. Falling from the top floor of the building into the commander's turret T-72B. The commander died.

This car could only be stopped like this ...
THIS MUST NOT REPEAT.

Enclosure protection:
Protection of frontal armor corps pleases. And the side? There is no her. Photos of 60 and 66.

Photo 66: Side protection body T-72B3.

In the protection of the sides of the case at the head of the corner stands rubber screen. Even without boxes DZ "Contact-1".

Based on the realities of applications mounted DZ (city), we can draw some conclusions:

The contact of the case with a non-combat obstacle:
Weak:
- Rubber fabric screen with boxes DZ well bends around minor obstacles WITHOUT damage to the protection itself.
- Frame hanging DZ demolishes.
- Heavy screens are in place.
Среднее:
- Rezinotkanevy screen pulls away cell by cell, if they are not fixed among themselves.
- Frame hanging demolishes.
- Heavy screen stands still.
Strong:
- Rubber in the trash.
- Skeleton in twist.
- Heavy screen pulls down one span.

Why on T-72B3 not put side protection, as, for example, in the serial BMO-T?


Photo 67: Lateral protection BMO-T. The parade of troops in Yekaterinburg.

Protection rear projection remains the greatest misfortune of serial machines. It seems that the tanks never turn their backs on the enemy ... You tell me about this “bearded” with the “seven”. He is just waiting for this, because THIS is his bread.


68 Photo: Rear Projection Protection T-72B3.

And where is the defense? Barrels are removed before the "work". All naked. Why it is impossible to put lattice screens, like in BMPT or a variant of a city tank?


Photo: 69. Protection of the rear projection of the version of the "urban tank" modifications T-72.

Creating a simple circular defense is not a flight to Mars of a nuclear-powered submarine with a ballistic missile on a caterpillar. Everything is much and much easier. And inexpensive. The question is why do we do this? Almost a rhetorical question, if his tankers are more than 20-years old (in my spirit) are asked.

The T-72B3 protection conclusion is very emotional. Because it is not clear what interferes with hanging “boxes” with “Contact-5” or “Relic” on the ALL surface? The total mass of equipped DZ blocks? But it seems there is still a sufficient resource of modernization without significant changes in the hardware. And even with the B-84 engine, power density does not suffer.

Conclusion on protection: I would not send my tank crews to “work” without boiling additional DZ boxes and grids. With the involvement of, respectively, BREM and with the agreement with the deputy technologist and ... "chm.shnikami."

6. Engine, transmission and chassis.


Almost no changes.

Engine:
B-84-1 left in place. B-92 is not set. Tankers, accustomed to the GTE, are shocked by all engines without distinction, but diesel drivers are frankly happy. The 84 is time tested and reliable. The troops know how to handle it. B-92 needs to collect claims from army trials.
And so, this is the same upgraded B-46-6. He has a large family: В-46-2С1, В-46-4, В-46-5, В-46-5М, В-84, В-84-1, В-84М, В-84М, В-84-1, В-XNUMXМ, В-XNUMXМ, В-XNUMX-XNUMX, В-XNUMXМ, В-XNUMXМ, В-XNUMX-XNUMX, В-XNUMXМ, В-XNUMXХ .


Photo: 70. Engine B-84 cm horsepower 840



Transmission:
Once moved the same, then the transmission is really the same. Guitar unchanged, BKP without amplification and an increase in the number of friction pairs in the friction controls. Bearings support sun gear are the same. The radiators and the friction clutch are the same.

Chassis:
Replaced caterpillar with a serial RMSH on a caterpillar with parallel RMSH. They are currently installed on both the T-90 (with 1996 g.) And T-72BA (with 2000 g.) When upgraded with replacement of the corresponding chassis parts in order to operate this track.

Whether the entire undercarriage was upgraded to the level of T-72BA (there were tangible changes in the installation variant of the B-92C2 engine) is unknown.


Photo 71: Caterpillar with parallel RMSH.


Conclusion:
No change except the caterpillar and the necessary elements of the chassis.


General conclusion:


A) Emotional:
Disappointment. Over the 20 years, almost nothing has changed with the modernization of the T-72. (Personal opinion, some talk about both 25 and 30 years of experience).

B) Objective (in moderation):
- Impressive modernization of the whole set of capabilities of the main staff under the gunner’s control: an upgraded tank gun with improved shooting parameters, a new aiming complex, an upgraded automatic loader with the possibility of firing with the newest shots.
- It depresses the leveling of these qualities by an almost blind commander.
It's not a secret for specialists that hitting a target ... is much easier than detecting and classifying a danger in time. The commander of the T-72B3 is unable to do this.
- There is hope about bringing to the mind installed communication systems.
- PPO "Frost" is not bad, but 2-multiplicity of application is not enough, it is desirable to increase, as well as the number of cylinders.
- Complete shock from the protection of the hull and turret.
- The engine, transmission and chassis (except for the harp with RMSH) - the same as many years ago.
Overall impression - began upgrading the machine and ... did not finish it. Moreover, further improvement of the machine does not require additional serious money.

After written:

At the exhibition of armament, military equipment and ammunition Russia Arms Expo (RAE 2013) a full-scale model of KAZ Arena-E mounted on T-72B3 was presented. Modern and costly achievements of the military industry are again side by side with ... TKN-3 commander and an open ZPU ...


Photo 72: T-72B3 with KAZ "Arena-E."


PS
The concept of the General Staff in relation to the existing fleet of tanks in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation is visible:
- Reliance on the existing park T-90.
- Liquidation of machines of the T-80 family.
- Upgrade the T-72 to the level T-72B3.
Hence:
T-90 around 500 pcs.
The rest of the niche will occupy T-72B3.

And it will be BEFORE the arrival of "Almaty".
But Armata is still at the design and testing stage.
In order for it to go into series, a long-term cycle of state and military tests is necessary. And only after that it will be possible to talk about serial deliveries of the volumes that the military-industrial complex will be able to provide and pay for the Defense Ministry under the rearmament state program.

So ... We are entering the XXI century, before entering the linear armored units and units, "Armaty" with ... the current version of T-72B3?

Tankers are not critics. “Fuel Oil” (of my generation and many others) thinks about HOW you can accomplish the task and order on available military equipmentwhile maintaining the lives of fighters. Tankmen of linear units do not dream of future promises and do not wave the booklets of the newest tanks. They serve in the army TODAY on the technique that is in the army. And right now.

Использованная литература:
Tank T-72A. Technical description and instruction manual. Book 2. 1988
Tank T-72B. Technical description and instruction manual. 1995

On the materials of the sites:
http://otvaga2004.ru
http://lib.rus.ec
http://www.uvz.ru
http://gurkhan.blogspot.de
http://www.vestnik-rm.ru
http://www.arms-expo.ru
http://vadimvswar.narod.ru
http://www.uralmixtorg.ru
http://www.army-guide.com
http://www.npoelm.ru
http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru
http://russianarms.mybb.ru
http://www.military-informant.com
http://btvt.narod.ru
http://www.rg.ru
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  1. Ols76
    Ols76 9 November 2013 08: 56 New
    +8
    T-72 survived the collapse of the USSR, so many years have passed and they are all being modernized instead of building a new one.
    1. Far East
      Far East 9 November 2013 14: 28 New
      14
      Quote: Ols76
      T-72 survived the collapse of the USSR, so many years have passed and they are all being modernized instead of building a new one.

      Yes, because he is a SUPERR tank! hi without cheers of patriotism!
      1. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 9 November 2013 18: 14 New
        22
        guys! I honestly have no armored vehicles, unlike my grandfather, who went through the war all over Europe and all of Europe, but are there any specialists here? so, looking at the tank biathlon on tv, what I saw was really jarring, constant equipment failures (and the tanks were being prepared!) unconvincing shooting (and the best crews and arrows), so-so driving (and mechanics are the best drivers) as a result what do we have in the bottom line? there’s no demand from conscripts, for a year they don’t know anything at all (with the exception of nuggets that are always everywhere) but apparently also contract soldiers what not really .... since it’s the best.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 9 November 2013 18: 43 New
          15
          Yuryevich, the decades of collapse, crowned by the time when the Armed Forces lived under the "chairmanship" of Perdukov, do not pass in vain. Unfortunately.
          It seems that the leaders sometimes thought, like the hero of J. Hasek, that "military service is a joke, a comedy", that one can escape from all problems by concluding a "suction" agreement, that a defense plant that has stood for ten years is possible, as if nothing had happened , to re-launch the production of complex military equipment in large quantities and of acceptable quality ...
          At the biathlon this is a natural result, s (despite the fact that exercises, frankly, are not the top of the difficulty).
          1. Aleks tv
            9 November 2013 18: 47 New
            +2
            Quote: Alekseev
            exercises, frankly, are not the top of difficulty

            Yeah, the namesake.
            yes
            Not at all the top of the difficulty.
            3-e UKS will be more serious, as well as test driving, and this is the routine in the troops.

            The bogeyman knows what happened to them on the biathlon.
            1. Andrew 447
              Andrew 447 13 November 2013 14: 40 New
              +4
              Hello Alexey! Thank you very much for the work done on the analysis of "this marvelous modernization" and for the excellent article. It reminded me of this modernization, the modernization of the T-64 of the first issues in the GSVG in the 80s, they considered that the inclined sheet was thin and decided to weld on an additional sheet 5 cm thick, the effect is very dubious, but the center of mass was violated. Well, for the modernization to be correct, you need officers from the Arbat district and the General Staff in tanks and in hot spots. I think all the tankers and you and I were happy about the results of the modernization.
              1. Aleks tv
                13 November 2013 15: 04 New
                +2
                Quote: Andrey 447
                I think all tank crews were happy with the results of modernization, and you and I.

                Greetings, Andrew.
                hi
                I remember your comments earlier, I am glad to receive such a response from my "fuel oil" ...

                He got sick simply, he wrote it.
          2. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 10 November 2013 13: 49 New
            +5
            Alexei, this is understandable, but I’m thinking, since they invited the NATO troops to biathlon, what are they counting on? if they refuse, then their affairs are no better? and if they accept the challenge, then what will we put up? T-80 or T-90 with letters? and the crews are already training? like the Olympians, in advance? but now it’s clear that the army is full of ahtutg! not so long ago, fate brought together friends of the tanker on one anniversary, well, and after the adoption, two men naturally started talking for service, I’m an Air Force, and he is a tanker, and he complained that they put him from 64 to 72, he says I was at ease, everything worked out, but in 72ke, I didn’t like everything. (I say again, I'm not special).
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 November 2013 15: 55 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey Yurievich
              if they refuse, then their affairs are no better?

              If they refuse, it will not mean anything. Think for yourself how much money you need to bring tanks, maintenance personnel. And as such there is no task like training in biathlon. Sorry, it's a simple window dressing.
        2. Walker1975
          Walker1975 9 November 2013 21: 50 New
          +6
          As always ... God forbid war, and you can only remember with longing that "the British do not clean guns with bricks"
        3. kott
          kott 10 November 2013 02: 11 New
          -22 qualifying.
          Either you are a bullhorn, or you didn’t have such a grandfather. You at least open the same shitty Wikipedia and then you will learn about the KV tank and how your grandfather could go through the whole war on it, and especially in Europe.
          1. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 10 November 2013 03: 13 New
            17
            and how could your grandfather go through the whole war on it, and especially in Europe? - ANSWER: (on tracks, like all tanks, and why should I read the wiki, if I have talked about this topic with my grandfather more than once, you learn history from Wikipedia, and our generation learned something firsthand.
            1. kott
              kott 10 November 2013 17: 19 New
              -24 qualifying.
              Son, turn on your brains. I am over forty, and I don’t know about your generation, which merges right there. So you still tell me how your unique grandfather was able to go through the whole war, and only on HF which were produced at the beginning of the war and before the war only a few hundred? I think so here everyone will immediately want to meet the grandson of such a heroic grandfather. Maybe you’ll name his grandfather and in what regiment, division did he serve? By the way, your father’s cop day, although he’s Kiev!
              1. Andrey Yuryevich
                Andrey Yuryevich 10 November 2013 17: 57 New
                17
                grandfather, Mikhail Vasilyevich Ilyin, documents are kept with my daughter, with my mother, if the region pressed you, I will certainly write down all the details for you next time, my grandfather is not a hero of the Soviet Union, but he has a dozen Red Star medals, and to me - more than fifty ... so this son is about you ... and if KV wasn’t released much, then grandfather didn’t have enough?
                1. kott
                  kott 10 November 2013 18: 13 New
                  -27 qualifying.
                  Once again, son, I kind of hinted to you that your grandfather couldn’t only wage war on the KV. But you see that you are stubborn as the Georgian to whom your uncle told how he shot at the Russian paratroopers in Abkhazia and they fell and stood up again because they wore armor-clad jackets. At the same time, he said, you don’t believe my uncle, my uncle never lied.
                  1. viddiv
                    viddiv 11 November 2013 18: 12 New
                    +7
                    Ilyinykh Mikhail Vasilievich fought on the KV-122 tank, was awarded the Order of the Great Patriotic and Red Stars. On the site you will find the feat of the people http://www.podvig-naroda.ru/.
                  2. Alex toll
                    Alex toll 13 November 2013 09: 37 New
                    +2
                    Shut your mouth - you when you open it as if shit ... but it got into the fan
                  3. sivuch
                    sivuch 19 December 2013 10: 38 New
                    +2
                    Kott
                    Is it always you-ignorance is replaced by aplomb? KV-85, for example, was fought for up to 45 years.
                    My first deputy head of the department ended the war at the rate of 45 matches, which was officially withdrawn from service a long time ago. By the way, a wonderful man, I hope I'm still alive
              2. Andrey Yuryevich
                Andrey Yuryevich 10 November 2013 18: 13 New
                +7
                and why is my father "Kiev" because of the motorcycle "Kievite"? from the Urals, we are not a big deal! from the Urals!
              3. lelikas
                lelikas 10 November 2013 18: 35 New
                +9
                Quote: kott
                Which HF was produced at the beginning of the war and before the war, only a few hundred?

                How-be history hints at the opposite - 4775 KV series cars of all types.
                After the war, the Poles got 5 pieces of KV-85 - i.e. at least they reached Poland on their own.
      2. bereg
        bereg 9 November 2013 22: 55 New
        +3
        can still change their mind at the expense of t 80, the Arctic, no matter how how to develop
      3. vjhbc
        vjhbc 10 November 2013 00: 11 New
        0
        well done himself commander wife gunner son mechanic and into battle and the rest of the same
        Quote: Far East
        Yes, because he is a SUPERR tank! without cheers of patriotism!
      4. varov14
        varov14 10 November 2013 13: 16 New
        +3
        I saw tanks only in the picture and on the pedestal, the tank may be super, but the article gives the impression that the modernizers are far from super, and there are opportunities. It’s a disregard for the matter, to change things. Or maybe the factories already have no one to do and roll on a lightweight program, anyhow.
    2. Xroft
      Xroft 9 November 2013 16: 46 New
      +4
      As I understood from the article, the key problem is protection (it does not completely cover key places) / not an automatic system for machine gun air defense / and the Pine scope which is not placed correctly and is closed by a bar (without an automatic system).
      Well, like all this can be changed? it’s certainly more difficult to place Pines, but setting an automatic bar is not a problem. Maybe they will listen to the tankers and make changes, it seems not so difficult / costly. The main thing is to knock the bosses may lobby until 2020, we will believe in the best.
    3. alone
      alone 9 November 2013 20: 26 New
      14
      the only thing I can say, the author did a great job! thanks for the stuff hi
      1. bask
        bask 9 November 2013 21: 32 New
        +5
        Quote: lonely
        They serve in the army TODAY on the equipment that is in the troops. And right now.

        Hi LESH.
        Great articles.
        And the epilogue is great,SERVICE PERSON.
        It is a pity that it will not enter the T-90 military in modifications and destroy the T-80.
        1. Aleks tv
          10 November 2013 01: 34 New
          12
          Quote: bask
          Hi

          Andryukha
          BREAK through ...

          Everything happened on the Caucasian land.
          We REMEMBER HER ODOR .............................
          And the smell of foliage.
          And the aftertaste.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 10 November 2013 01: 45 New
            +8
            Hi Lesh, thanks for the articles, rating-5 +, carry the diary laughing
            1. Aleks tv
              10 November 2013 02: 49 New
              +5
              Quote: Alex 241
              Hi Lesh, thanks for the articles, rating-5 +, carry the diary

              Sanya, my friend ...
              My diary under the bottom of the AZ is hidden.
              So reliable. yes
              And under P-173 - a bag with rations.
              Let's get there.
              wink
              drinks
    4. Felix200970
      Felix200970 11 November 2013 23: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: Ols76
      T-72 survived the collapse of the USSR, so many years have passed and they are all being modernized instead of building a new one.

      In some places, 64s will be upgraded. (Just 34 rock was left but on the monuments)
  2. svp67
    svp67 9 November 2013 09: 11 New
    +9
    How smart should I be the person ordering in 2011, after all the local wars, an option for such an installation ???
    Yes, apparently "helluva lot", SO to manage to "drink" some money ...
    By the way, Alexey - installing a caterpillar "a, la T80" instead of the native one, with the same engine, is not the best option, it is more "stiff", which has a good effect on driving at high speeds, but increases the resistance to movement, which affects the increase in fuel consumption ... Interestingly, the T72B3 was "driven" to "full range" with one refueling ...
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 9 November 2013 14: 14 New
      26
      Quote: svp67
      How smart should I be the person ordering in 2011, after all the local wars, an option for such an installation ???

      An incompetent bastard sat in the posts ...
      The author is a competent person, clearly outlined the picture.
      The general idea of ​​the "budgetary" modernization is still clear: to install a thermal imager, to make it possible to use new ammunition, to install modern communications and dynamic protection. All. Not enough, of course, but if they did it wisely, efficiently, then you can put up with it.
      But the commander’s devices (also not the most expensive, but perhaps the most important), this TKN is fucking, barbaric dynamic protection, no gratings, no side screens, like on Bshki ...
      This zpu cave ... request
      The main thing is that there are good practices and ready-made solutions to all these issues, there is no desire to work with individual leaders. And there is no competence.
      It’s time for the GBT to initiate a good thing, it’s just that ... tank troops.
  3. koralex
    koralex 9 November 2013 10: 08 New
    10
    In GS, they themselves do not know what they want. They kind of gave money, but they don’t know what to do with it. So such products come out. What is not sawn then goes to the army. And then the men there are tormented. It seems that in the General Staff scored on the ad. And mainly from culinary colleges.
    1. Vovka levka
      Vovka levka 9 November 2013 11: 22 New
      +7
      Quote: koralex
      In GS, they themselves do not know what they want. They kind of gave money, but they don’t know what to do with it. So such products come out. What is not sawn then goes to the army. And then the men there are tormented. It seems that in the General Staff scored on the ad. And mainly from culinary colleges.

      As I dressed my harness, and all dumb and dumb. And here is GS.
    2. duke
      duke 9 November 2013 12: 18 New
      +4
      some strange comments, Duc Serduchka and his Baba battalion were they really thinking about competent modernization, and even more so about the people who were “little green men” for them? They thought about their foreign accounts ... well, think about the old defense, holes in it, well, the crew will die, they will find others - they knew what they were doing, but how many mona they could have on one tank ... Now, if only this menistra, with a hare to put a boar into a tank and test its modernization by shelling, live, then he would have thought ten times what modernization is needed ... This manager will hiccup and burp for a long time ...
    3. Wal
      Wal 9 November 2013 14: 05 New
      +2
      And where does GS?
  4. avt
    avt 9 November 2013 10: 12 New
    +8
    good Just another plus for the sensible article!
  5. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 9 November 2013 10: 14 New
    17
    To the author - respect. I read both parts with great interest. +++ For the opinion of a practitioner is always twice as valuable ...

    But this is the very so-called. "urban" modification of the T-72 presented at RAE-2013. The picture is clickable, large size ...
  6. newcomer
    newcomer 9 November 2013 10: 29 New
    22
    thanks to the author for honesty and objectivity. and then, honestly, I'm tired of listening to hurray-patriotic tales about how the armor is strong and our tanks are fast ... and pouring diarrhea on "cardboard" "Abrams" and "Challengers" ...
  7. vladkavkaz
    vladkavkaz 9 November 2013 10: 40 New
    +6
    Interestingly, the author strenuously accuses the General Staff, saying that it is such and not such a task.
    And the author doesn’t know that, in general, the whole BTVT economy is in charge of such a hack office as the GABTU?
    Is it any wonder that such decisions are made when those in the leadership are sitting there and you can’t allow a gun shot?
    For example, a certain Teryukhov-thief from the time of the second Chechen, by the will of fate and patronage of the current head of this same GABTU, who holds a considerable post there.
    Is it any wonder when, instead of a normal Tiger-type car, a Lynx was dragged along? And at the same time they sang the praises of it, what an amazing car?
    Is it any wonder that the TIGER, INSTEAD OF THE 6th CLASS OF PROTECTION CLAIMED INTO THE FORCES, IS ONLY ONE THIRD?
    Since everything is done in the country through the butt, but on TV and in the media in general, the crash of drums and howling fanfare, they say it’s good, is it worth it to be surprised at such wild decisions regarding the protection of T72, without any application of the experience of local conflicts?
    And this, the lives of our soldiers, abandoned to please the Moloch profit of commerce in uniform ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 9 November 2013 11: 22 New
      +3
      "Tiger" with the declared protection 6a still cannot be submitted for testing. And by the way, Shevchenko spoke about this.
      And Teryukhov in what position did he sit? The surname is familiar.
      1. bask
        bask 9 November 2013 22: 14 New
        +5
        Quote: Spade
        "Tiger" with the declared protection of 6a still cannot be submitted for testing

        Tiger 6A (6th class of defense.) Has already passed all the tests.
        Only, not the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, is not going to buy it.
        1. kott
          kott 10 November 2013 02: 31 New
          -3
          And you can ask where and when this tiger was tested for undermining.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 10 November 2013 10: 50 New
            +4
            Quote: kott
            And you can ask where and when this tiger was tested for undermining.

            I don't know the details, but there is a photo of the "Tiger" tests for detonation
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 November 2013 11: 28 New
              +1
              You yourself see that the weight of explosives is for children, 600 grams in total. This is a test of protection against a grenade under the bottom or an anti-personnel mine.
      2. vladkavkaz
        vladkavkaz 10 November 2013 10: 03 New
        +2
        Shovels (
        If there are acquaintances in the GABTU, ask, they will say. Now, if you have not lied, this squalor in the akamedia of the General Staff, improves the skills for cutting the rollback, they prepare a change for themselves, "professionals" with the GABTU ...
        The second, so to say a good friend, as he wrote a review on exercises in the Far East, when the howling fanfare and the tambourine battle about outsourcing overshadowed the mind, were forbidden to explicitly submit, forced to write that everything was okay ..
        With regards to the Tigers with grade 3 instead of 6, ask where they were sent, and how they were quickly written off now.
        Shevchenko ... A cool guy. The truth, according to the results of his past detail in one of the organisms of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, hiccuped in the consequences right up to 2006. Nevertheless, he tells something ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 November 2013 11: 36 New
          0
          Quote: vladkavkaz
          With regards to the Tigers with grade 3 instead of 6, ask where they were sent, and how they were quickly written off now.

          Because they are not needed in the army. Well, they have no place in the state. And they forced to buy, Deripaska’s hand was hairy to impossibility.

          Quote: vladkavkaz
          Shevchenko ... Cool guy.

          I came across him only once once. I drove up so steep on an armored personnel carrier, asked what I needed. I said, he wrote down, in a week I got everything, including the battery.
          1. vladkavkaz
            vladkavkaz 10 November 2013 11: 52 New
            +2
            Shovels.
            I drove up to an armored personnel carrier and lo and behold, I had to make it happy, did the battery give IT all the memories of a gorgeous and wonderful guy named Sasha?
            Is there no room for TIGER in the states?
            Actually, who told you this? Serdyukov? This one, if only he could buy a Land Krauser and roll his ass. And why not use this Tiger instead of a pretty outdated UAZ, as a command vehicle with everything you need? (By the way, Mikhalkov, Putin rode on VIP TIGER, cool car
            , with all the bells and whistles) Patrol-commandant? Escort of military convoys? The resource of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles burn for escorting the convoy much more expensively, and what is this most embossed resource of a battalion in infantry fighting vehicles or armored personnel carriers, in Chechnya, is not familiar by hearsay.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 November 2013 12: 42 New
              0
              Quote: vladkavkaz
              I drove up to an armored personnel carrier and lo and behold, I had to make it happy, did the battery give IT all the memories of a gorgeous and wonderful guy named Sasha?

              Yes. You can not understand.


              Quote: vladkavkaz
              Is there no room for TIGER in the states?
              Actually, who told you this?

              There is no place, and I myself know this very well. Is it possible to replace the UAZ commander’s, but it’s painfully curly-haired, around the city the ass of the brigade commander is carried on such an expensive device.

              Quote: vladkavkaz
              Patrol-curfew?

              Not suitable, no protection against mines

              Quote: vladkavkaz
              Escort of military columns?

              Better BTR

              Quote: vladkavkaz
              The resource of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles burn on escorting a column much more expensively

              The infantry fighting vehicles do not accompany the wheels, and the "tiger" is not capable of replacing the armored personnel carrier even here.

              Quote: vladkavkaz
              and what is this very battered resource of a battalion on an infantry fighting vehicle or an armored personnel carrier, in Chechnya, is familiar not by hearsay.

              If you don’t change the car from the moment you leave Germany, and you don’t restore the resource, the result will be rotten without any convoy support.
              1. vladkavkaz
                vladkavkaz 12 November 2013 19: 59 New
                0
                Shovels.
                All of your comments indicate that you, in spite of trying to look like a pro, are not.
                "" I drove up on an armored personnel carrier and lo and behold, I must have made me happy, the battery gave - THIS is all the memories of a gorgeous, wonderful guy named Sasha?
                Yes. You don’t understand. ”WHERE I don’t understand, especially when I was in the first company of the KMSR on an armored personnel carrier and I know perfectly well what a hassle it was with a battery that sat down at the wrong time, or a broken battery on combat, especially I don’t know, the perfectly organized work of SPPM in Lenin Park in Grozny, in January 1995.
                "" "Quote: vladkavkaz
                Is there no room for TIGER in the states?
                Actually, who told you this?
                There is no place, and I myself know very well. Unless the commander's UAZs are replaced, but it is painfully curly, this is to carry the brigade commander's ass around the city on such an expensive apparatus. "" "- again a complete manifestation of ignorance of where, how and why these machines are used, except for
                Mandir (but not for pokatushek in the city, but to provide the commander in the performance of both combat and combat training missions), with the installation of a required communications complex.
                "" "
                Quote: vladkavkaz
                Patrol-curfew?
                Not suitable, no protection against mines

                Quote: vladkavkaz
                Escort of military columns?
                Better APC "" "
                Parses laughter from such interpretations.
                An armored personnel carrier is designed to ensure infantry combat, rather than escorting convoys where there is no sense in it, there isn’t enough a tiger with NSVT and AGS, bulletproof armor, the same as on armored personnel carriers, maneuverability is better, operating costs are lower.
                "" "Quote: vladkavkaz
                The resource of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles burn on escorting a column much more expensively
                The infantry fighting vehicles do not accompany the wheels, and the "tiger" is not capable of replacing the armored personnel carrier even here.

                Quote: vladkavkaz
                and what is this very battered resource of a battalion on an infantry fighting vehicle or an armored personnel carrier, in Chechnya, is familiar not by hearsay.
                If from the moment of withdrawal from Germany the cars are not changed, and the resource is not restored, then the result will be rotten without any convoy escort.
                I very much laugh, literally from such a smugly ambitious statement, you would be very nonsense, for example, tell about 72 MSP 42 MSD, or 71 MSP of the same division, do you know what the difference is? One SME was on BTR-80, the second on the BMP, and you, in the past, the official officer in charge of technical support of the columns in the MSD, will you tell a joke about what and how was used and what was not used, and most importantly about the BTV in the years of production ??
                My friend, don’t be so funny when you make such comments — what can you say about the BTR resource accompanied by the columns, when the KAMAZ, URAL resources in the OBMO did not have the same division and only when I was three times changed the whole vehicle of the OMO?
        2. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 10 November 2013 13: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: vladkavkaz
          With regards to the Tigers with grade 3 instead of 6, ask where they were sent, and how they were quickly written off now.
          So the MO ordered the 3rd class, and already at Serdyukov the pritenzy was rolled out, why is it not the 6th. The militia ordered itself the 5th - and received it. By the way, something is not heard from them complaints about cars.
          And about 3rd grade, if I am not mistaken in this photo, it is he who is now on the conveyor belt and is being produced according to the schedule.

          "The Arzamas Machine-Building Plant fulfilled its obligations to supply finished products with high quality and on time. In October, 148 armored vehicles were sent to the customer. This is reported by the amz.ru website."
          http://warfiles.ru/show-42333-proizvoditeli-btrov-i-tigrov-v-oktyabre-otpravili-
          zakazchiku-148-bronemashin.html

          1. vladkavkaz
            vladkavkaz 12 November 2013 20: 02 New
            -2
            Bad_gr
            Of course, of course, I took everything from the ceiling and gave out something that was not there, it’s a trouble, infa from those who know exactly what they are saying.
            And the fact that ARZAMAS is able to produce cool equipment, no one doubts, if you still press on the management so that the price is not torn into space heights ..
    2. Aleks tv
      9 November 2013 13: 33 New
      18
      Quote: vladkavkaz
      Interestingly, the author strenuously accuses the General Staff, saying that it is such and not such a task.
      And the author doesn’t know that, in general, the whole BTVT economy is in charge of such a hack office as the GABTU?

      Read the first part of the article, there is little in the beginning.
      And GABTU does not have such a big role. They determine TTZ based Doctrineswritten by GSH. And modernization before mass production GSH too.

      Quote: vladkavkaz
      Is it any wonder that such decisions are made when those in the leadership are sitting there and you can’t allow a gun shot?

      There is such a letter.
      My eyelid is still twitching when I say "GABTU".
      After all, they were not only engaged in theory, but also often "desired" their favorite personnel when checking linear parts.
      I remember how I once got bogged down with such a check on the "shtatka" together with the BP control.
      Moreover, the bespectacled colonel from the Arbat district did not "notice" the shooting of my company at the "exc" at all, he was outraged that when loading the BC, the crews turned on the "hand" on the commander's console, and not on the gunner's console (as required by the INSTRUCTIONS!).
      To my justification of running around too much and violating the loading algorithm (many do so in parts), a lot has been said about my personality ...
      He grumbled, and I looked at his clean little hands.
      Different people in GABTU.
      1. papik09
        papik09 9 November 2013 14: 20 New
        +3
        There are enough devils everywhere, unfortunately drinks
      2. Eugeniy_369
        Eugeniy_369 9 November 2013 15: 07 New
        +8
        Quote: Aleks tv
        He grumbled, and I looked at his clean little hands.
        Different people in GABTU.

        The army is not on Mars .... everything in the country is in the army sad
        About the article .... except for the word well done! nothing more to say, but I think and do not good
        Wrote and illustrated so that even a child will understand yes
      3. vladkavkaz
        vladkavkaz 10 November 2013 10: 06 New
        +2
        Aleks tv
        Yes, I agree, different, very different.
        But unfortunately, now, there are much more Arbat slickers than those to whom any company commander after checking will say thank you, and will not twitch an eye and remember it with a "kind, quiet" word.
      4. Orakul2000
        Orakul2000 12 November 2013 06: 26 New
        0
        Alex, I have a different question. I had to crawl through Western modern tank models, with a sophisticated electronic nightie, and according to their specialists, the sizes of the crew’s armored capsule were calculated by the tank designers in such a way that the ergonomics and convenience of the crew would not be disturbed with further upgrades (They even set the air conditioner, since the electronics themselves generate a lot of heat during operation), which affects the crew’s fatigue. How did you solve the situation in this project? After all, crew fatigue is also a rather important aspect during multi-day military operations and exercises?
        1. Aleks tv
          12 November 2013 12: 50 New
          +2
          Quote: Orakul2000
          In my life I had to climb western modern tank models,

          Good day, Boris.

          And on the contrary, I haven’t been in foreign countries.
          Perhaps I will visit and lead Leo2 (in Germany at one exhibition), there are plans.
          wink

          Quote: Orakul2000
          according to their specialists, the dimensions of the armored capsule of the crew by tank designers were calculated in such a way that would be possible with further upgrades,

          In fact, normal armored capsules are not yet available on production vehicles.

          Quote: Orakul2000
          they installed the air conditioner, since the electronics themselves generate a lot of heat during operation), which affects the crew’s fatigue. How did you solve the situation in this project? After all, crew fatigue is also a rather important aspect during multi-day military operations and exercises?

          Alas, in our cars (for the Russian Federation), condos do not bet. There is no operational experience.
          As for heating from electronics, I will not say that this is a problem on the T-72B (only when the 1K-13 is running). Perhaps the situation on the T-80 is more complicated, this should be clarified with the "GTDs". The heat is mainly from the ambient temperature and the heating of the armor itself.

          Here, of course .... ahem, problems. At first, as you dive under the armor, there is really NOTHING to breathe and EVERYTHING is hot. The air is "harder" and "heavier" than in a sauna. Then you get used to it. Worse - when you get out ...
          Yes, not sugar. There is such a letter, but it is quite bearable, there are worse things.
  8. Lopatov
    Lopatov 9 November 2013 11: 15 New
    +7
    ZPU in the current version does not make sense at all. If there is an urgent need to shoot at air targets, then a radar sight is needed. If exclusively on the ground, preferably remotely controlled combat module
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 11: 25 New
      +7
      Quote: Spade
      ZPU in the current version does not make sense at all. If there is an urgent need to shoot at air targets, then a radar sight is needed. If exclusively on the ground, preferably remotely controlled combat module

      The question is controversial ... and of course now the value as a ZPU is low, although UAVs are quite suitable for dealing with light UAVs ... and even for fighting ground-based ones, STILL HOW! And of course, such an installation should be of a "closed type" and it is not necessary to introduce a radar, it is enough to work out the thermal imaging + television guidance channel ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 9 November 2013 11: 36 New
        +4
        Quote: svp67
        The issue is debatable ... and of course, now the value as an anti-theft system is low, although UAVs are quite suitable for fighting lungs.

        It will not work. A lead is required. And it’s simpler and cheaper than the RL sight.

        Quote: svp67
        ... and so for the fight against terrestrial, so much else !!!

        And here we need a remotely controlled one, something like the Belarusian "Adunk", which will not only improve the safety of the tank commander, but also significantly relieve him of the load due to the introduced automation functions. The commander can only mark the target or sector, the module will do the rest.
        1. svp67
          svp67 9 November 2013 11: 52 New
          +5
          Quote: Spade
          The commander can only mark the target

          Such a function has long been able to perform the tank's fire control system, on ours starting with the T64B, so I don’t see anything complicated here, as well as the possibility of adapting such a system to combat air targets.
          But I am categorically against the radar, the tank should be as "invisible" as possible ... Why don't I really like "Arena", not much because it is dangerous for my own troops, it also "shines" in all directions, " inviting "shells with homing heads ...
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 9 November 2013 12: 23 New
            +4
            Quote: svp67
            Such a function has long been able to perform the MSA of the tank, on ours starting with T64B

            Not really like that. There, not only the ACS stands. I can search for a video where Belarusians NSVTshkami write on the billboards the name of their company. You can not only fire at marked targets in a given sequence. You can specify the sector that will be fired at the same density. You can replace NSVT with AG directly in the field.
            And let the tank gun control system do its job.


            Quote: svp67
            But I am categorically against the radar, the tank should be as "invisible" as possible ...

            This is not a locator. If the tank has TNA, then there is a Doppler track sensor. Which is no different from the Doppler speed sensor included in the radar sight. The sight does not detect air targets. It measures the speed of already detected and introduces lead.
            1. svp67
              svp67 9 November 2013 13: 13 New
              +5
              Quote: Spade
              If the tank has TNA, then there is a Doppler track sensor.

              in TNA (tank navigation equipment) only gyroscopes and sensors (counters) of the path of some "Doppler ..."
              Than the South Koreans were very surprised, who for a long time could not believe that such a thing was possible, with SUCH a small error. They "drove" the T80UK for a long time, checking the TNA readings with the "DZhiPiRiS" indicators ... And they were forced to admit that the Russians succeeded ...
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 9 November 2013 13: 31 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                TNA (tank navigation equipment) uses only gyroscopes and track sensors (counters)

                Well ... Two track sensors, Doppler and mechanical. I always thought that she was normal on tanks. And then, it turns out, it was artificially rude?

                Quote: svp67
                What were very surprised by the South Koreans, who for a long time could not believe what was possible, with such a small error.

                As one of our teachers used to say, TNA is like a beautiful girl, you need to take care of it for a long time and constantly. Then the coordinates will give exact.
                1. Aleks tv
                  9 November 2013 13: 57 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Spade
                  I always thought that she was normal on tanks. And then, it turns out, it was artificially rude?

                  Which have...

                  The path counter is finally a "funny" thing in the troops.
                  The "delta D" mode, which introduces into the sight of the amendments about the distance traveled by the tank itself by a mechanical method, is not particularly favored among the troops and ... rarely used - it only interferes.

                  Moreover, "Switch on delta D" means "Switch on the Fool" in tank forces.
                  yes
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 9 November 2013 14: 15 New
                    +2
                    It is necessary to verify it, to drive on the bases. I remember that the scout was screwed up, and then, for a week, he was busy with the chief artillery chief with their BRM-1K and BRDMmmi.

                    I was joking right now, the new TNA-4-3 and TNA-M equipment will already be equipped with Doppler sensors, but not with flat antennas, as before in artillery KShM, but with cylindrical ones.

                    By the way, there is another interesting thing surfaced, I quote:
                    Currently, on the basis of the Kapustnik-B integrated automated artillery fire control system, an automated fire and maneuver control system for a tank battalion has been developed and tested, which will be installed on command tanks. According to experts, this system will increase the combat effectiveness of a tank unit by two to four times.

                    Have you heard anything about this?
                    1. Aleks tv
                      9 November 2013 14: 50 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Spade
                      Have you heard anything about this?

                      I didn’t feel it myself.
                      But I heard from the ear that they want to register this artillery system in tank units.
                      It certainly will not hurt the TB battalion.
                      The only question is, place it in a tank or in a separate car?
                      Difficult to answer.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 9 November 2013 15: 23 New
                        +3
                        Most likely, as in artillery, the main "brains" will be in the command staff of the chief of staff.
              2. Alekseev
                Alekseev 9 November 2013 15: 19 New
                +2
                Quote: svp67
                in TNA (tank navigation equipment) only gyroscopes and sensors (counters) of the path of some "Doppler ..."

                But it works for sure!
                In any case, much more accurate than the map and compass. yes
                there would still be an electronic tablet, instead of mechanics, to combine, so to speak, with modern realities.
                It’s a pity that they rarely used it to the full. many kraskoms simply stupidly, easier, they say, ask in the village how to deal with TNA ... request
  9. marshes
    marshes 9 November 2013 11: 22 New
    +2
    Both articles are not bad. I hope that our management will take note.
    And here is not much about our modernization. Http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/05/72_04.html
    In Astana in May, Cadex 2014 will be held, we can see something new.
  10. Jeka
    Jeka 9 November 2013 11: 51 New
    13
    Due to the lobbying of the T-72 for its modernizations and descendants, the excellent T-80U tank was left out of work, in terms of its protection it is better than the T-90A. There is also an interesting modification of the T-80UM1 "Bars"
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 11: 58 New
      +8
      Quote: wih
      the T-80U tank was left out of work, in terms of protection it is better than the T-90A.

      In its old form, the T80U is no better than the T90A, but here is what went to replace it ... especially Object 291, then YES ...
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 10 November 2013 06: 17 New
        +5
        And I served on the “object 832.” Do you think I’m at least a little Tankman?)
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 9 November 2013 15: 41 New
      0
      Quote: wih
      Due to the lobbying of the T-72 for its modernizations and descendants, the excellent T-80U tank remained out of work

      If you could find a way for the GTE to stop eating kerosene "like a bull's slop", and to make it cheaper and more maintainable, then, undoubtedly having its own advantages, the GTD-1250 would take the place of a diesel engine in MBT.
      But ..., the time has not yet come for a helicopter engine to displace purely tank power units on the ground. request In the future may be ...
      1. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 10 November 2013 01: 28 New
        +6
        Well, it seems, with the latest GTD-1250 engine, it was possible to make the T-80U more economical, but I believe the problem is that they have lost the ability to make and maintain such engines. There is another good Soviet tank, the T-80UD, with the 6TD-1 which the Ukrainians are developing in full and not even bad at all. In my opinion, the whole problem is in the influence of UVZ, everything from them cannot be put on Russian tanks, except for such things as thermal imagers, which UVZ cannot do. UVZ is still not able to make a modern transmission and engine, even the most sophisticated T-90MS demonstrator rides a forced B-92 (93) and a T-72 transmission, which migrated from the T-54 .. Therefore, what kind of T- 80U ?? Yes, even though it will be 3 times better, but if the product is not from UVZ, then no way! But they could have provided the army with relatively modern and reliable tanks for a long time. How many T-80 rots under the Russian sky ?! What are the residents of Omsk now inventing, is the design bureau preserved? Why not take from the Ukrainians a modernized transmission that allows reverse travel up to 30 km / h, as on all modern tanks (all UVZ products are not faster than 5 km / h), plus a 6TD-2 engine? Now on this basis (modernized T-80 with 6TD-2 + transmission) to put the already tested concept of the ob640 tower (Black Eagle) and its further development "Burlak", that is, with AZ in the rear of the tower + panoramic sight for the commander, the same Pine -U, just not cut down, like the T-72B3, ZPU with channel output to the commander's monitor, + DZ "Relic", if it saves from tandem and armor-piercing. Sufficient protection by blocking all weak zones of the remote sensing + grating. This is how I see a possible, effective modernization of Russian tanks, it would be feasible if first of all we thought about the survival of the crew and combat effectiveness (the absence of a panoramic stabilized periscope at the commander of the main tank of Russia, this is sabotage in my opinion). I wonder how much money has been given by the state to UVZ over the past 15 years? I suspect that a lot, a lot of billion $? Why do Ukrainians, Kharkiv citizens, without such funds, without spending the budget, make, in my opinion, tanks better than UVZ? Why haven't the authorities forced UVZ, or someone else, to cooperate with Ukraine?
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 10 November 2013 11: 20 New
          +3
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          even the most sophisticated T-90MS demonstrator drives a forced B-92 (93) and a T-72 transmission, which migrated from the T-54 ..

          Why write nonsense? the T-54 has an ordinary 5-speed gearbox with synchronizers, the T-72 has 2 planetary boxes (each has its own side), the T-90ms has an automatic machine.
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          How many T-80 rots under the Russian sky ?!

          Is UVZ to blame for this?
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          What are the Omsk inventing now, has the design bureau been preserved?

          It is part of the UVZ corporation; they are engaged in repair and special equipment.
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          to deliver the already tested concept of the ob640 tower (Black Eagle) and its further development "Burlak",

          "Burlak" could not be brought to a working sample.
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          I wonder how much over the past 15 years, the XNUMXth state gave UVZ money?

          These data can be found on the official website of UVZ. Incidentally, the main profit of the corporation from civilian products, then, perhaps, from export contracts. Talking about big money from MO against this background is not even funny.
          Quote: Abra Kadabra
          Why has the government still not forced UVZ, or anyone else, to cooperate with Ukraine?

          In what field ? Recently, the same UVZ for their cars began to take metal from the Chinese instead of Ukrainian, as the quality is higher.
    3. Walker1975
      Walker1975 9 November 2013 21: 56 New
      +5
      For many years, Soviet tank forces were ruined by the fact that every infection, trying to push through its model, competed in the fight of horseshoe boys, and as a result: several models of main tanks at the same time, cost overruns, super modernization with 80s instruments and the loss of a number of promising developments
  11. Kars
    Kars 9 November 2013 12: 11 New
    +7
    I liked the review. Would anyone who would have done the same on BM Bulat. The truth is ours (probably fortunately) has no combat experience. On the Bulat, by the way, they didn’t put a thermal imaging panorama (no money) By the way, 52 myion rubles is about 1.5 million dollars?

    As a spy question - did you even see BPS Lead 2 in the linear parts? And is there a program in the ballistic computer (but is it by the way?) For shooting it?
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 12: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      As an espionage question - have you even seen BPS Lead 2 in linear parts?

      Yes, anyone can see them ... it's another matter to "touch" ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 9 November 2013 12: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        Yes, anyone can see them.

        In the picture, yes.
        Quote: svp67
        it's another matter to "touch" ..

        Yes, at least look not in the picture.

        Quote: svp67
        It is necessary to ask for a photo of the "switch, the choice of the type of projectile ..."
        I can take a word
        1. svp67
          svp67 9 November 2013 13: 09 New
          +2
          Quote: Kars
          I can take a word

          We must ask Alexei, he "worked out" this topic "coolly and thoroughly" ...
          1. Aleks tv
            9 November 2013 13: 42 New
            +3
            Quote: Kars
            As a spy question - did you even see BPS Lead 2 in the linear parts? And is there a program in the ballistic computer (but is it by the way?) For shooting it?


            Quote: svp67
            We must ask Alexei, he "worked out" this topic "coolly and thoroughly" ...


            Andrey, Sergey, frankly speaking, I have not heard about the presence of "Lead" in the warehouses of RAV.
            And I don’t think that they will answer my direct question.
            I wouldn’t answer it myself if the info bar is on. And not all ordinary tankers know what RAV is in the warehouses.

            And in practice, the use of BPS in the troops, Sergei will not lie like other tankers:
            - Practice is almost zero. "Lomik" wears out the barrel very much.
            Practical projectile for full-time training more often looks like a cumulative.

            And in a real combat situation in the BC, they were also not common. There was simply no corresponding opponent. When the Czechs-1 were cumulative in BC.
            Maybe someone else has a different experience.

            It is better to ask about the BPS from the testers or ... military advisers and technicians who were in the "foreign" country, they often used them.
            1. Kars
              Kars 9 November 2013 13: 50 New
              +3
              Quote: Aleks tv
              saying i didn't hear about stock

              I have been in warehouses. In Ukraine, they did not remain from the USSR. Although GSVG ammunition was taken to us at the time of withdrawal.
              Quote: Aleks tv
              - Practice is almost zero. "Lomik" wears out the barrel very much.

              They brought me BPS with adolescence as a young man, although I, out of ignorance, thought that something was a rocket. And to his regret, he just ... clapped.
              Now I’m trying to get it, but something doesn’t get. At least somewhere in bulk.
              Quote: Aleks tv
              that they will answer my direct question.

              And what about the switch? The BPS network of increased power should have a trajectory different from Mango, and it should be entered into a ballistic computer, computer.

              Or tanks in parts ... shoot ... and do they correct the installations?
              1. Aleks tv
                9 November 2013 14: 38 New
                +2
                Quote: Kars
                And what about the switch? The high power BPS network must have a trajectory different from Mango,

                Andrey, I’ll clarify this question if possible.
                If offhand, it seems there is no additional channel for Lead, it just has a direct shot range greater than conventional BPS.
                But this is IMHO, you need to ask current practitioners.

                Quote: Kars
                Or tanks in parts ... shoot ... and do they correct the installations?

                On the T-72 it always has been. The correction is calculated, introduced into the scope and sighting.
                Now we shoot like "big" ones, all automatic.
                laughing
                1. Kars
                  Kars 9 November 2013 14: 57 New
                  +4
                  cool movie on the Steel laid out. would find something like shelling T-72/80
              2. Alekseev
                Alekseev 9 November 2013 19: 19 New
                +2
                Quote: Kars
                Or tanks in parts ... shoot ... and do they correct the installations?

                Throughout the "conscious" life of the tank troops, they shoot at them and adjust the settings themselves. There is a special spare parts kit for this case.
                But here the process itself is significantly different on old tanks and tanks with modern SLAs.
                On the latter, in addition to reconciling the zero aiming line, it is necessary to check the electric zero of the system using special devices, to correct the working out of the aiming angles and lateral lead for each type of a / c, the resolution zone of the shot, etc.
                True, this is rarely done due to the fact that a new battle tank must be calibrated and adjusted from the factory, and for confident hits on target No. 12,12b at a range of 1500-1600m, which is typical for UUS and UKS, reconciliation and adjustment are enough machines of the combat training group in the old fashioned way. AND many have little literacy, although these adjustments are not very complicated.
                They are afraid, true, that they would not do worse! wassat
                1. Kars
                  Kars 9 November 2013 20: 17 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Alekseev
                  On the latter, in addition to reconciling the zero aiming line

                  If I honestly imagined something like that.
                  Here I have a slightly different question.
                  There are several types of BPS - I won’t look for ciphers - there are the Hairpin, Mango, Lead
                  Do they shoot just a common BPS, or each type shoot separately? Can it happen that in extreme cases there will be several types of BPS in the tank’s ammunition? Even hypothetically.
                  1. Alekseev
                    Alekseev 9 November 2013 21: 02 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    maybe in extreme cases, in the ammunition tank of the tank there will be several types of BPS

                    The differences in the flight path are not significant; at the ranges of the actual fire, they do not require adjustment of the development of the FCS of the aiming angles. Unlike, for example, O / F, they are also different, and even of the same model (they differ in weight and require, in a good way, sorting by weight)
            2. svp67
              svp67 9 November 2013 16: 35 New
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              And in practice, the use of BPS in the troops, Sergei will not lie like other tankers:
              - Practice is almost zero. "Lomik" wears out the barrel very much.
              Practical projectile for full-time training more often looks like a cumulative.


              I won’t let you lie, almost it is. Although there were exceptions ...
              Alex, can you remember the "dark story" with the explosion of T72 during the shooting in Elana and the death of the crew? So, before that, we had been shooting with BOPS and KSami for almost a month, shooting "unnecessary" stocks of ammunition ... The cadets were also shooting. So that "explosion" of T72 could be directly connected with those of our shooting ...
              And so for training shooters, three types of shell were usually used:
              - "practical" COP
              - "practical" OFS
              - OFS with "temporary" fuse
              1. Aleks tv
                9 November 2013 17: 05 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                can you remember the "dark story" with the explosion of T72 at the shooting in Elana and the death of the crew? So, before that, we had been shooting with BOPS and KSami for almost a month, shooting "unnecessary" stocks of ammunition ... The cadets were also shooting. So that "explosion" of T72 could be directly connected with those of our shooting ...

                2001 winter?
                И cadets training too "unnecessary" BOPS shot?
                Well, yes, they combined one with the other ...

                After BOPS, we’ll deal with the barrel of Nana more carefully, with us the Zampotech himself personally checked the cleaning after a limited number of shots (I don’t remember exactly how many) and made new measurements of wear ...
                It is very possible that they went too far with them.

                Memory for the guys ...
                1. Aleks tv
                  9 November 2013 17: 08 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  Memory for the guys ...

                  Yes, I found it on the internet: November 2001.
                  ....
                  Senior Sergeant MAXIM TUNEGIN,
                  Private OSIPENKO
                  Junior Sergeant KUZMIN

                  ....
                2. svp67
                  svp67 9 November 2013 18: 08 New
                  0
                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  2001 winter?
                  And training cadets, too, "unnecessary" BOPS shot?

                  Yes ...
            3. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 9 November 2013 22: 10 New
              +1
              Alexey, good evening.
              Quote: Aleks tv
              "Lomik" wears out the barrel very much.

              In new crowbars, the tail is much smaller than the diameter of the trunk, and only the coil touches the walls of the trunk. I think the barrel wear should be much lower than when shooting with old sub-caliber.
              Quote: Aleks tv
              And in a real combat situation in the BC, they were also not common.

              They say that in Chechnya they shot at a five-story building at the end of the 4 entrance inclusively.
              PS
              In the first article, the maximum length of the BOPS and the AZ under them is 640 mm. In terms of ammunition and ammunition, the 740mm figure has come across more than once.
              1. svp67
                svp67 10 November 2013 01: 04 New
                +3
                Quote: Bad_gr
                In new crowbars, the tail is much smaller than the diameter of the trunk, and only the coil touches the walls of the trunk. I think the barrel wear should be much lower than when shooting with old sub-caliber.

                It is this "coil" that "carries out" with each shot several milligrams of steel from the bore ... And the higher the speed, the faster the wear.
              2. Aleks tv
                10 November 2013 02: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Bad_gr
                They say that in Chechnya they shot at a five-story building at the end of the 4 entrance inclusively.
                PS

                What's the point?
                Therefore, they were further loaded with OF.
                Each theater has its own.

                Good evening, Vladimir.
                Glad to see you.
                hi

                Quote: Bad_gr
                and only the reel touches the walls of the barrel.

                Only this "coil" leaves the bore at a speedy speed. She also "collects" the trunk cover.

                Quote: Bad_gr
                maximum length of BOPS and AZ under them in 640mm. Both the ammunition and the AZ more than once came across the number 740mm.

                I also came across this figure "740" in the calculations ...
                There is a great desire to measure the conveyor AZ with tape measure ...
                But I'm not at odds with math.
                On modernization of the AZ - the biggest problems.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. ramsi
                  ramsi 10 November 2013 09: 22 New
                  0
                  Quote: Aleks tv
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  and only the reel touches the walls of the barrel.

                  Only this "coil" leaves the bore at a speedy speed. She also "collects" the trunk cover.

                  Tell me, but on the master device there are no attempts to use a gas suspension ...- any holes on the end, grooves, reverse cone on the back side?
              3. svp67
                svp67 10 November 2013 06: 31 New
                +3
                Quote: Bad_gr
                They say that in Chechnya they shot at a five-story building at the end of the 4 entrance inclusively.

                Alas, it more depended on where they fell and what they were building from, there were cases when they went to the "ricochet" ...
                And one of my comrades, an "Afghan", told how they first tried to knock the "spirits" out of an ancient fortress ...
                Initially, they decided to make a break in the wall, well, where they say they do not wait, and the tanks were assigned the role of "master key". So into this wall a tank platoon, my friend, and these are three T62s, planted a dozen shells from each barrel, a total of about thirty shells and NOTHING ... "Like cotton wool" - the words of a comrade, and if the OFS fired first, then then tried to pry open the wall with BPSs ... I had to "knock on the gate" "impolite ...", well, things went more fun for them, after the first volley - one half of the gate "blew away like the wind", after the second - the second ... then the infantry quickly "cleaned up" the "economy". Let's go to see where three dozen shells "disappeared", looked, "found" and understood, the whole point is in the construction of the fortress wall ... It was a complex multi-layer structure of brick partitions between which clay was rammed, and this whole structure had a thickness not less than five meters ...
        2. uwzek
          uwzek 10 November 2013 13: 16 New
          0
          Unfortunately, the author of the article was mistaken when he said about installing the fifth modification of the 72A2M gun on the modernized T-46 (the 2A46M-4 variant is installed, as on the T-90). Therefore, the discussion about the use of newer BPS does not make sense.
          1. Aleks tv
            10 November 2013 16: 06 New
            0
            Quote: uwzek
            option 2A46M-4 is installed

            Curious.
            It would be nice to talk about it and justify.
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 9 November 2013 15: 34 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        And is there a program in the ballistic calculator (and by the way is it?) For shooting it?

        That is why BOPS is especially valuable, which is little sensitive to various kinds of programs, its ballistics is simple and does not require control. His motto is that there is no method against scrap!
        True, the barrel of the tank gun is very sensitive to wear and tear ... request pressure in it up to 7000 atm happens.
        Therefore, they are not shot in the troops. only in special cases (experimental exercises, shows, etc.)
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 12: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: Kars
      And is there a program in the ballistic calculator (and by the way is it?) For shooting it?

      It is necessary to ask for a photo of the "switch, the choice of the type of projectile ..."
      Here's how on the T90, on the right is the switch block for the mode of operation and the selection of ammunition.
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 9 November 2013 13: 03 New
        +5
        [Center]
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 9 November 2013 14: 51 New
          +1
          sorry guys, but such a profane question: if the armor penetration of the BPS depends on the length of the arrow, and it is limited by a separate charge, then why not make a composite rod? True, then the charge is not common ... but in principle?
          1. Aleks tv
            9 November 2013 15: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: ramsi
            if the BPSA armor penetration depends on the length of the boom, and it is limited by a separate charge, then why not make a composite rod? True, then the charge is not common ... but in principle?

            Igor, how is it possible to make a crowbar flying at a tremendous speed, compound? No way.

            And the propellant for dispersal in him is already in two parts (in the charge and the burning cylinder of the projectile itself), in contrast to high-explosive fragmentation and cumulative (in them gunpowder is only in charges).

            This topic is very interesting, has already been discussed. Hope someone writes in detail.

            Photo: separate BPS shot
            1. Burning sleeve, 2. Core, 3. Combustible cylinder with a core inside.
            1. ramsi
              ramsi 9 November 2013 15: 52 New
              +1
              this is exactly how I imagined it - a core protruding outward is also installed in the burning sleeve and the shank of the first "snapped" into the "open" in the bottom of the projectile, the plumage is transferred to the core in the sleeve ... The special strength of the connection, as I understand it, is not needed - sufficient weight with small diameter
            2. svp67
              svp67 10 November 2013 01: 08 New
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              Igor, how is it possible to make a crowbar flying at a tremendous speed, compound? No way.

              Why not? Technically possible, but "the game is not worth the candle", it is very difficult and it is not a fact that it will work as it should ...
            3. Alex 241
              Alex 241 10 November 2013 01: 13 New
              +1
              The guys came in late, I have such an amateur proposal, just don’t throw yourself in slippers, but what if you install an N-26A type piezoezzer in the head part, and something like an RDTT type, and at least a PK-3m1 pyro cartridge (effort 5 tons) for giving acceleration when touching the armor. I understand that the external ballistics are counted, but all the same .........
              1. svp67
                svp67 10 November 2013 01: 24 New
                +2
                Quote: Alex 241
                Guys came late, I have such an amateur offer, just don’t rush with slippers

                They went into the wrong room, dear, they throw boots here ...
                Good night, Alex. Can not sleep?
                Quote: Alex 241
                to install a piezoezavitel like N-26A, and in the tail, something like a solid propellant, and at least a PK-3m1 squib (force 5 tons) to give acceleration when touching the armor.

                Piezo-bomber is a well-known thing for us, it is installed in the Constitutional Court, but here we will install it, and then what, how to carry out the executive circuit? Drill a hole through the entire body? It’s quite troublesome, so you need to drill exactly through the center, otherwise an imbalance will arise, which, when the projectile moves towards the target, will reduce its accuracy. And a tracer is already installed in the tail of the projectile so that it would be possible to correct the shooting ... Although it was an interesting idea, it always interested me why it didn’t want to establish the type of an additional acceleration engine, apparently, that didn’t work out .. .
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 10 November 2013 01: 28 New
                  0
                  Sergey understood, I'll go get drunk laughing
                  Quote: svp67
                  Can not sleep?
                  I recently arrived from work.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 10 November 2013 11: 29 New
                  0
                  Quote: svp67
                  why they don’t want to establish a type - an additional acceleration engine, apparently

                  The Israelis have such a development. But as I understand it, the increase in speed from the accelerator is not large. Is that compensated by the braking of the projectile on the air.

                  I heard that we have anti-tank grenade launchers with a kinetic (and not cumulative, as now) damaging element. Details about him in net did not find.
              2. Lopatov
                Lopatov 10 November 2013 10: 08 New
                0
                I think this will not add much speed.
                It is much easier to create a hypersonic missile fired through the barrel. But BOPS will still be needed for firing at short range
                1. ramsi
                  ramsi 10 November 2013 10: 34 New
                  0
                  Yeah, faster than a cumulative jet, it still will not work
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 10 November 2013 11: 38 New
                    0
                    Cumulative charge is not put on hypersonic missiles. Either the penetrator, or the hull itself is enough. They have higher speeds than modern BOPS.
                    1. ramsi
                      ramsi 10 November 2013 12: 07 New
                      0
                      I just wanted to say that such a "know-how" overclocking should begin, at least, a few meters before the target (so 10-15 minimum, it feels like)
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 12: 45 New
                        0
                        They accelerate from the very beginning. If the memory does not change, 400 m is the minimum range, the maximum speed is 600 m. Then it is supported, unlike the BPS, the rocket does not lose speed.
                      2. ramsi
                        ramsi 10 November 2013 12: 48 New
                        0
                        Lopatov, you are talking about a rocket, and we are talking about an armor-piercing shell accelerated in front of a target
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 12: 59 New
                        0
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It is not possible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse, which means that some kind of radio fuse is needed that measures the distance to the target in flight in order to turn on the accelerator. It is painfully difficult, too susceptible to counteracting electronic warfare. Stations of interference with radio fuses appeared in the 80s of the last century.
                      4. ramsi
                        ramsi 10 November 2013 13: 05 New
                        +1
                        Yes, I agree, BOPS is simpler, more reliable and cheaper
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 15: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        It’s impossible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse,

                        Why doesn’t it get? If you already put the engine on the BOPS, then what is the problem with the programmable fuse? The Swedes even put shells on the 40 mm, and with programming while the projectile was in the gun.
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 16: 28 New
                        0
                        An alien tank can move. So the required accuracy cannot be provided. Acceleration, after all, should not happen earlier and not later - all this significantly reduces the final speed. Such a "crowbar" by default will have a larger diameter, which means greater air resistance

                        Quote: Kars
                        Swedes even put projectiles on 40 mm, and with programming while the projectile is in the gun.

                        In the moment departure from the trunk. The fuse is simple, it counts the revolutions of the projectile around its axis.

                        And programming in the trunk is not particularly difficult. For example, implemented on our "Tornado-G"
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 16: 33 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Another tank can move.

                        It’s strange for ordinary BPS they don’t move? And here is the super-duper super-high-speed projectile.
                        Quote: Spade
                        At the time of departure from the trunk. Simple fuse

                        Very simple.
                        outfit PFHE Mk 2 (Proximity Fuze High Explosive)

                        Fragmentation projectile with a non-contact fuse Mk 2 and a body containing ready-made striking elements (GGE). Intended for the destruction of aircraft, helicopters, cruise missiles and surface ships. When a shell explodes, more than 2400 killer fragments are formed. Experiments have shown that a helicopter propeller blade can be destroyed when a projectile is detonated at a distance of 0,5 m from it. In an explosion at a distance of 0,4 m, the probability of screw failure becomes very high.

                        The defeat of cruise missiles by shell fragments is achieved due to the defeat of the missile control unit. On average, ten hits of fragments in the projection of a rocket are enough for this purpose.

                        The Mk 2 detonator is equipped with a target selection device, which allows, for example, to distinguish a helicopter propeller when it protrudes slightly above the tops of trees and distinguish a surface target against the background of wave crests. In terms of safety, it meets the requirements of NATO standards (NATO STANAG) and the United States (US. MIL-STD 331 and 810), which ensures the introduction of two independent mechanical devices, as well as an electronic unit that enables the fuse to be fired at a distance of 300 m from the gun. The fuse is stable in a wide range of weather conditions, including tropical rain.

                        Projectile PFPPX (Proximity Fuze Prefragmented Programmable) (proximity fuse, pre-fabricated PE, programmable). The heaviest, most complex and expensive ammunition shell. The mass of the projectile is 975 g, the mass of the explosive charge is -120 g, the filling coefficient is 0,123. The explosives used are PBX (octogen / organic binder (90 / 10)) or octol (octogen / trinitrotoluene (78 / 22)). The shell of the shell contains 1100 ready-made striking elements (GGE) in the form of balls of tungsten alloy with a diameter of 3 mm (weight about 0,25 g). When a projectile explodes, also about 3000 fragments of natural crushing are formed, capable of piercing a duralumin shield with a thickness of 2 mm, installed at a distance of 1,5 m from the point of detonation. The greatest damaging effect when firing at an aircraft is observed in the case of a projectile detonation at a distance of 2,5 m from the target, and when firing at anti-ship missiles - up to 2 m

                        Quote: Spade
                        For example, implemented on our "Tornado-G"

                        After such articles, I personally am not particularly sure what is implemented there.
                      8. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 17: 08 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s strange for ordinary BPS they don’t move? And here is the super-duper super-high-speed projectile.

                        A conventional BOPS does not need to turn on the accelerator at an exact distance from the target. It will turn on earlier - the speed will drop due to air resistance, turn on later, and the shell will not have time to gain maximum speed.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Very simple.

                        Absolutely simple. Easier and nowhere.

                        The projectile can be very expensive to manufacture, and the fuse unpretentious. And vice versa. For example, Soviet remote tube fuses with high-precision mechanical clockwork are much more expensive than the shells themselves.

                        Quote: Kars
                        After such articles, I personally am not particularly sure what is implemented there.

                        Does your opinion have any significance?
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 17: 44 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        A conventional BOPS does not need to turn on the accelerator at an exact distance from the target.

                        And how does it get?
                        Quote: Spade
                        It will turn on earlier - the speed will drop due to air resistance, turn on later, and the shell will not have time to gain maximum speed.

                        How much Km did you intend to shoot? 20? 40? How many seconds or MINUTES)) will pass from the moment of departure from the barrel to the destruction of the target?
                        at the same time there is no need to focus on the goal - it is quite realistic to start the engine at a fixed distance from the carrier TANK. And on the basis of this, the ballistic computer will calculate the meeting point (naturally, taking into account everything from the wind speed to the charge temperature)
                        And by the way, this whole dialogue (I don’t care about accelerators) is just to show that you are incompetent and taught you badly (you can practice wherever you go, nl here is knowledge)
                        Quote: Spade
                        Absolutely simple. Easier and nowhere.

                        Well, what do you prove?
                        Quote: Spade
                        For example, Soviet remote tube fuses with high-precision mechanical clockwork are much more expensive than the shells themselves.

                        It may well be, but this is not the situation. And as for the simple thing, you still bring the fact.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Does your opinion have any significance?
                        It’s the same as yours, although there’s nothing to be modest about;
                      10. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 18: 01 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        And how does it get?

                        Yeah, it does. And sometimes, accordingly, does not fall


                        Quote: Kars
                        How much Km did you intend to shoot? 20? 40? How many seconds or MINUTES)) will pass from the moment of departure from the barrel to the destruction of the target?

                        In the US, the initial velocity drop is 70 m / s at 1 km. There will be approximately 2-3 times more.

                        Quote: Kars
                        however, there is no need to focus on the goal - it is quite realistic to start the engine at a fixed distance from the carrier TANK.

                        In this case, the inevitable eccentricity of the thrust will increase dispersion, and the inevitable increase in the diameter of the projectile will cause a larger drop in the initial velocity. That is, the miracle BOPS will be effective only to a small extent in range. You can’t shoot close; Cool stuff will come out.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, what do you prove?

                        I won’t even bother, you won’t understand.


                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s the same as yours, although there’s nothing to be modest about;

                        Nobody's opinion matters. It is only one FACT that matters - the system of induction input of fuse installations on Tornado-G is installed.
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 18: 09 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Yeah, it does. And sometimes, accordingly, does not fall

                        Yah.
                        Quote: Spade
                        In the US, the initial velocity drop is 70 m / s at 1 km. There will be approximately 2-3 times more.

                        Do Americans shoot BPS with accelerators? And this is not the answer to a direct question.
                        Quote: Spade
                        In this case, the inevitable eccentricity of the thrust will increase dispersion, and the inevitable increase in the diameter of the projectile

                        Why are you writing this? This is to the fact that the enemy’s tank HOW you deigned to make discoveries can it move
                        Quote: Spade
                        That is, miracle BOPS will be effective only in small ranges

                        And the tank gun fires BOPs at what distances? 10? 20? km? or to 3-4 km? and then such distances because of the terrain are rare?
                        Quote: Spade
                        You can’t shoot close, you don’t have time to accelerate, you can’t get far too far — low speed and low accuracy. Cool stuff will come out.

                        How close is it? And how far is it?
                        Quote: Spade
                        I won’t even bother, you won’t understand.
                        But what is there to understand - as usual, you froze stupidity, and now you are mowing down the hose. How is it in the USSR for which art systems such simple fuses as in Sweden were used
                        PFHE Mk 2 (Proximity Fuze High Explosive)
                        Quote: Spade
                        It is only one FACT that matters - the system of induction input of fuse installations on Tornado-G is installed.

                        Is there a fact or a declaration of intent
                      12. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 18: 34 New
                        0
                        That's it, Kars, out of habit, hacked a fool. The discussion became uninteresting.
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 19: 42 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        That's it, Kars out of habit knocked out a fool

                        And you prove that it’s not you. I’ll get on one another write. This is a programmable, multi-mode fuse is a very simple thing. But the fact that the tank usually should shoot at moving targets was an opening for you)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It’s impossible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse,

                        )) and then there are fuses
                        Quote: Spade
                        The fuse is simple, it counts the revolutions of the projectile around its axis.

                        And programming in the trunk is not a particularly difficult task
                      14. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 21: 09 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        And you prove that you are not.

                        Yes, just spit. It was a simple remote fuse. And you started to shake the fuse Mk 2, which, even dib..lu understandably, is a radio fuse.
                        Stop. Or maybe you really did not understand, did not understand?

                        Simple remote stands on PFPPX. He just stupidly counts his momentum.

                        Further continue to describe places where you or a fool cut, or really not in the subject?
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 21: 20 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        It was a simple remote fuse

                        Who told you that?
                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It’s not possible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse, so some kind of radio fuse measuring the distance to the target in flight is needed to turn on the accelerator.

                        You soldered the radio detonator here, even though you don’t need it, the carrier tank determines the distance to the target, and it takes into account the target’s movements, although this is not particularly difficult for hypersonic ammunition at a distance of 3 km.
                        Quote: Spade
                        And you started to shake the fuse Mk 2, which, even dib .. I understand, is a radio fuse

                        And what did you write about dol - tel?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Quote: Kars
                        Swedes even put projectiles on 40 mm, and with programming while the projectile is in the gun.
                        At the time of departure from the trunk. The fuse is simple, considers the speed of the projectile around its axis

                        And why are you writing this then?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Further continue to describe places where you or a fool cut, or really not in the subject?

                        Go on, go on.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Simple remote stands on PFPPX. He just stupidly counts his momentum

                        Is he very simple in your opinion?
                        Projectile PFPPX (Proximity Fuze Prefragmented Programmable) (proximity fuse, pre-fabricated PE, programmable). The heaviest, most complex and expensive ammunition shell. The mass of the projectile is 975 g, the mass of the explosive charge is -120 g, the filling coefficient is 0,123. The explosives used are PBX (octogen / organic binder (90 / 10)) or octol (octogen / trinitrotoluene (78 / 22)). The shell of the shell contains 1100 ready-made striking elements (GGE) in the form of balls of tungsten alloy with a diameter of 3 mm (weight about 0,25 g). When a projectile explodes, also about 3000 fragments of natural crushing are formed, capable of piercing a duralumin shield with a thickness of 2 mm, installed at a distance of 1,5 m from the point of detonation. The greatest damaging effect when firing at an aircraft is observed in the event of a projectile detonation at a distance of 2,5 m from the target, and when firing at anti-ship missiles - up to 2 m. 0-mm PFPPX projectile

                        The projectile fuse is programmable, i.e. can be set to one of six types of actions:
                        1) non-contact action, included only in the target area (air targets)
                        2) the same type of action with an increased direct hit priority (large air targets)
                        3) temporary (remote) action (small maneuverable and camouflaged ground and underwater targets)
                        4) contact (impact) action (ground and surface targets)
                      16. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 21: 34 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        You soldered the radio detonator here, even though you don’t need it, the carrier tank determines the distance to the target, and it takes into account the target’s movements, although this is not particularly difficult for hypersonic ammunition at a distance of 3 km.

                        Answer a simple question without cutting a fool: Why would they need the Mk2 radio fuse if everything is so simple: the carrier will determine the speed of the target and introduce it into a simple remote fuse without such bells and whistles?
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 21: 41 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        why then to them the Mk2 radio fuse if everything is so simple: the carrier will determine the speed of the target and introduce it into a simple remote fuse without such bells and whistles?

                        Well pretend to be a hose further.
                        For starters, firing is conducted, including for air targets that have a much higher speed than the TANK? Do you dare? Can you turn on the logic?
                        Secondly, the speed near 1000 m / s and the speed drop for this type of projectile (did you understand that they are not subcalibers at least?) Are significant. The explosion detonation function is also necessary, that is, a NON-CONTACT fuse.

                        But the fact itself - you first think before you write nonsense.

                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It’s impossible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse,

                        Quote: Kars
                        You soldered the radio detonator here, even though you don’t need it, the carrier tank determines the distance to the target, and it takes into account the movement of the target, although for hypersonic ammunition at a distance of 3 km it’s not particularly difficult
                      18. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 22: 04 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well pretend to be a hose further.

                        Is I pretending to be a hose?
                        You did not answer the simplest question: why do you need a radio fuse instead of a simple remote like AHEAD. Fewer speeds? So what? The laser range finder determines high speeds much more accurately.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Secondly, the speed is about 1000 m / s and the speed drop for this type of projectile (did you understand that they are not sub-calibers at least?) Is significant.

                        AND? Do you think that a projectile with an accelerating engine will be the diameter of a standard "crowbar"? Oh, how everything is running ... What kind of superfuel must it be for an accelerator to be the size of a tracer? Such a projectile will be caliber. With all that it implies. Moreover, there is no separation in flight, the accuracy will then become such that the meaning of the projectile will disappear altogether.

                        Well, and who is pretending to be a hose here?
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 22: 22 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        You did not answer the simplest question: why do you need a radio fuse instead of a simple remote like

                        ................? for a SHARPED projectile and you don’t need a RADIO-EXPLOSIVER? (for hoses - it significantly increases the efficiency, and there are shells and it’s easier, but what’s the use of it?) you are not just Tu-Po Y you K-low n from the movie Dumb and Dumber))))


                        Quote: Spade
                        AND? Do you think that a projectile with an accelerating engine will be the diameter of a standard "crowbar"?

                        I don’t know. But why not? He shouldn’t accelerate from scratch, but add impulse.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Oh, how everything is running.

                        It’s not started with the topa, but it's over. The brains atrophied, one crammed one remained.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Such a projectile will be a caliber

                        Where did you get? At least someone I ask)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        Well, and who is pretending to be a hose here?

                        I admit you are not pretending, you really are.

                        Quote: Kars
                        The projectile fuse is programmable, i.e. can be set to one of six types of actions:
                        1) non-contact action, included only in the target area (air targets)
                        2) the same type of action with an increased direct hit priority (large air targets)
                        3) temporary (remote) action (small maneuverable and camouflaged ground and underwater targets)
                        4) contact (shock) action (ground and surface targets)

                        The color for the hoses is highlighted that your question is not interesting for the Swedes.))))
                      20. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 22: 51 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Are you really TU-POI? For a SHARPED projectile and you don’t need a RADIO Blaster? Aren't you just Tu-Po Y you K-low from the movie Dumb and Dumber))))
                        I wonder if you yourself understood what you wrote? Or so, a cry from the heart? The fact called "Blaster Mk2" remains a fact regardless of hysterics.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I don’t know. But why not?

                        But because not. Investing in the size of a standard cumulative projectile will already be a huge achievement.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Where did you get? At least someone I ask)))

                        Common sense. A solid-fuel engine capable of accelerating the penetrator to such speeds will have a clearly larger size than a scrap tracer


                        Quote: Kars
                        The color for the hoses is highlighted that your question is not interesting for the Swedes.))))

                        You just don’t know how to read.
                        The first option is undermining according to the radio fuse (let it be known to you, they all turn on in the target area.
                        Option two - a radio fuse only if the fuse does not work
                        Option three - the radio fuse does not turn on, only remote detonation.
                        Fourth option - only fuse, radio and remote do not turn on
                        The fifth option is shock with deceleration. Undermining is made after breaking through an obstacle

                        Sometimes translate copy-paste into Russian so as not to look ridiculous. And then I look at you, incomprehensible phrases directly hypnotize. Throw out, not understanding their meaning.
                      21. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 23: 13 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Interestingly, you yourself understood what you wrote?

                        Of course I did.

                        Quote: Spade
                        "Fuse Mk2" remains a fact regardless of hysterics.

                        And what did someone argue? For that matter, in our question we need only one fact
                        Quote: Kars
                        The inclusion of non-contact action only when approaching the target area is ensured by the calculation and introduction of flight time into the fuse to the front of the target area.

                        In our case, this will be the launch of the accelerator.
                        Quote: Spade
                        But because not. Investing in the size of a standard cumulative projectile will already be a huge achievement.

                        Yes, you are an amazingly strange person. Argumentation because no)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        Common sense. A solid-fuel engine capable of accelerating the penetrator to such speeds will have a clearly larger size than a scrap tracer

                        To what speeds? Do you need so much to add 100-300 m / s?

                        Quote: Spade
                        You just don’t know how to read.

                        You just do not know how to think)))
                        Quote: Spade
                        Sometimes translate copy-paste into Russian, so as not to look funny

                        Well, these questions are not for me, but for the magazine Tech and Armament.
                        http://www.plam.ru/transportavi/tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_2001_09/p3.php
                        Quote: Spade
                        Throw out, not understanding their meaning.

                        Dodge, dodge - one thing is that you puff so much, and getting out already proves that you are disgraced (however, as usual)
                        highlight pearls

                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It’s not possible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse, so some kind of radio fuse measuring the distance to the target in flight is needed to turn on the accelerator. It hurts hard


                        Quote: Spade
                        Quote: Kars
                        Swedes even put projectiles on 40 mm, and with programming while the projectile is in the gun.
                        At the time of departure from the trunk. The fuse is simple, it counts the revolutions of the projectile around its axis.

                        And programming in the trunk is not particularly difficult. For example, implemented on our "Tornado-G"

                        Quote: Spade
                        Another tank can move.
                      22. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 November 2013 23: 43 New
                        0
                        Again, the inclusion of a fool and getting into insignificant details went. What real facts do we have? Correctly. Even for fragmentation projectile, which can cause damage to the target even when a gap near it, they considered it necessary fuse with a radar sensor. And the projectile we are talking about needs a lot more accuracy, right?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, these questions are not for me, but for the magazine Tech and Armament.

                        Read still need to understand. And some have big problems with this.


                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. To enter into the fuse range before the shot does not work

                        Fact. Entering data before firing does not give the necessary accuracy

                        Quote: Spade
                        At the time of departure from the trunk.

                        Fact. It is considered. that it will increase security

                        Quote: Spade
                        The fuse is simple, it counts the revolutions of the projectile around its axis.

                        Fact. They refuse complex temporary fuses requiring an adjustment for the deviation of the initial speed, preferring fuses that count the speed of the projectile around its axis. Which, due to the low price and small size, even put on 25 mm grenades

                        Quote: Kars
                        To what speeds? Do you need so much to add 100-300 m / s?

                        Look at the ATGM boosters, you’ll understand.

                        Will you have something else so "thoughtful"?
                      23. Kars
                        Kars 10 November 2013 23: 58 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Correctly. Even for a fragmentation projectile that could cause damage to a target even if it bursts near it, they considered it necessary to use a fuse with a radar sensor

                        You won’t spoil the porridge with oil. In fact, you completely screwed up.
                        Quote: Spade
                        This is nonsense, accelerated in front of the target. It’s not possible to enter the range before the shot into the fuse, so some kind of radio fuse measuring the distance to the target in flight is needed to turn on the accelerator. It hurts hard

                        )))
                        Quote: Spade
                        Read still need to understand. And some have big problems with this.
                        You are a great proof of this.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Fact. It is considered. that it will increase security

                        yes. But why is that phrase from YOU?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Fact. Entering data before firing does not give the necessary accuracy

                        Then how do BPS get at all? And what accuracy do you need if the trajectory is forgiven by the computer, taking into account the final acceleration? Which starts at a DETERMINED point of the trajectory of limes in advance. And do you still consider yourself an artilleryman?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Fact

                        The fact that something will become when you prove that the Swedish fuses are simple.
                        Quote: Spade
                        preferring fuses that count projectile revolutions around its axis.

                        By the way, where did you get this? Will you give me the link? (Naturally for a Swedish shell)
                        Quote: Spade
                        speed they refuse

                        Who by the way are they?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Look at the ATGM boosters- you will understand

                        I am amused. Look at the bottom nozzles of active-missile shells. Although I personally do not care. The question is in launching the accelerator, but the subtleties are another matter.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Will you have something else so "thoughtful"?

                        Well, you have to train you, maybe you’ll develop your thinking.
                      24. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 11 November 2013 00: 05 New
                        0
                        I’ll answer below.
                      25. Kars
                        Kars 11 November 2013 00: 31 New
                        +1
                        Don’t worry, I will find.
                      26. Kars
                        Kars 11 November 2013 00: 32 New
                        +1
                        Until the morning you can think. Maybe you’ll invent something))
                        This is for you to inspire))
  12. Kars
    Kars 10 November 2013 21: 21 New
    +1
    5) shock armor-piercing action (ground and surface targets)
    6) non-contact action The type of action (programming) for each projectile is set immediately before the shot using the PFP (Proximity Fuze Programmer) program unit, which continuously receives information from the fire control computer. If the shot is not fired, then the fuse installation is erased after a short time, and it can be programmed again.

    The inclusion of non-contact action only when approaching the target area is ensured by the calculation and introduction of flight time into the fuse to the front of the target area. This ensures fuse protection from various types of electronic countermeasures and natural noise.
  13. Kars
    Kars 10 November 2013 16: 34 New
    +1
    The projectile fuse is programmable, i.e. can be set to one of six types of actions:
    1) non-contact action, included only in the target area (air targets)
    2) the same type of action with an increased direct hit priority (large air targets)
    3) temporary (remote) action (small maneuverable and camouflaged ground and underwater targets)
    4) contact (impact) action (ground and surface targets)
    5) shock armor-piercing action (ground and surface targets)
    6) non-contact action The type of action (programming) for each projectile is set immediately before the shot using the PFP (Proximity Fuze Programmer) program unit, which continuously receives information from the fire control computer. If the shot is not fired, then the fuse installation is erased after a short time, and it can be programmed again.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 9 November 2013 15: 56 New
    0
    Quote: ramsi
    BPS armor penetration depends on the length of the boom,

    The question is rather complicated (it is not without reason that research institutes deal with it wink ).
    Armor penetration (including) rather depends not on the length of the "arrow", but on the specific load at the point of contact with the armor.
    It is impossible to infinitely reduce the diameter of BOPs, increase the length, apply cores from depleted uranium, etc., in general, the problem is complex, and, at the present stage of progress, an increase in length is recognized as necessary.
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 16: 01 New
      +2
      Quote: Alekseev
      Armor penetration (including) rather depends not on the length of the "arrow", but on the specific load at the point of contact with the armor.

      Depends, so a longer projectile is not only heavier, but can also fly at a higher speed, features of the "feathered projectile"
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 9 November 2013 16: 05 New
        0
        I’m all this to the fact that it would be possible to surpass the unitary charge in this parameter on a separate charge (in case of AZ) by this parameter
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 9 November 2013 16: 43 New
        0
        Quote: svp67
        a longer projectile is not only heavier, but can also fly at a higher speed, features of the "feathered projectile"

        I agree, no one has canceled aerodynamics yet. But it is unlikely that the new BOPS is heavier - a high initial speed is most important.
        1. Kars
          Kars 9 November 2013 17: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Alekseev
          But hardly a new BOPS heavier

          It will be (except Khlopotov no one is talking about Lead-2) necessarily more difficult.
          The speed of the Soviet guns and so more than the German (which are on most modern MBT)
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 9 November 2013 17: 51 New
            0
            therefore, if they do not increase the length, then with the same core material, you will have to increase the diameter; and a cone that is more elongated and of a smaller diameter pushes the air apart more easily, and for a longer boom the plumage will start earlier and better
          2. Abracadabra
            Abracadabra 10 November 2013 02: 01 New
            0
            If you believe what they write, 1800m / s, then higher than DM-63 1750m / s. But if I’m not mistaken, then the problem of domestic BOPSs like Mango and Lead is a loss of speed, about 200m / s per 1000m, in comparison with the same Amer, or German, which lose 100-120m / s per 1000m.
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 9 November 2013 22: 27 New
    +2
    Quote: svp67
    It is necessary to ask for a photo of the "switch, the choice of the type of projectile ..."

    In T-90ms it looks like this


    1. svp67
      svp67 10 November 2013 02: 07 New
      0
      Quote: Bad_gr
      In T-90ms it looks like this

      Almost fantastic ...
      1. Aleks tv
        10 November 2013 02: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: Bad_gr
        In T-90ms it looks like this

        Quote: svp67
        Almost fantastic ...

        Vladimir, Sergey ...
        And I was always worried about the transition from "sighting" to "television" viewing.
        Unusually.
        The habit is needed in training and the development of the skill.
        IMHO, of course.
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 November 2013 05: 54 New
          +1
          Quote: Aleks tv
          Unusually.
          The habit is needed in training and the development of the skill.
          IMHO, of course.

          This is just hard for us "old men", and "youth" with his "computers" is just that ... Well, training is certainly necessary.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 11 November 2013 09: 22 New
            0
            I am far from young, but, in my opinion, the "sighting" survey should remain only auxiliary. You can then sit straight, no need to spin (the camera is spinning), but rather a large multiscreen from four cameras; jabbed a finger - you can zoom in, zoom out and full screen; the camera crashed - leaned out, stuck a spare into the connector; and it will be cheaper ...
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 November 2013 10: 13 New
          0
          Exercise machines are not a problem. It would be a desire.
      2. Kars
        Kars 10 November 2013 09: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        Almost fantastic ...

        interesting and then remember how neighing with electronic filling Leclerc? and now one to one.
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 10 November 2013 11: 07 New
      0
      Question, can you work with gloves on the screen? Even the interface is too small ....
  • Aleks tv
    9 November 2013 16: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    It is necessary to ask for a photo of the "switch, the choice of the type of projectile ..."

    Sergey, just now I thought to revise the photo on the subject of this issue:
    In the first part of the article, photo # 22 "The control panel of the commander of the" Double "mode. This is the control panel of Sosny-U itself. 23 photos confirm this.
    B, K, O, P, U.
    Everything. Nothing new, still.
    TPD-K1 has the same old way.
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 20: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: Aleks tv
      Everything. Nothing new, still.

      This is frustrating. It was quite possible, even with such a decision on the layout, instead of the TPD-K1, to install at least the good old 1G42, or better 1G45, with its subsystems, the fire capabilities of the tank would have increased, but it turns out that if the "Sosny ", KUV no longer works, and it is better to equip the commander's workplace ...
  • Patton5
    Patton5 10 November 2013 10: 57 New
    0
    Kars and you do not want to try? There is a lot of information on the network, you are in the subject ... it would be great hi
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 November 2013 15: 59 New
      +1
      I am not a tanker.
  • Larus
    Larus 9 November 2013 12: 19 New
    +5
    Find those who received IT, put them in a tank and shoot, since they think (is) that it is safe. After they refuse (they didn’t do it for themselves), deprive them of their ranks and services for such acceptance and undermining the country's defenses!
  • kirpich
    kirpich 9 November 2013 12: 53 New
    +4
    Mdaa ... I read both parts. Before that, I thought that / Order in the tank troops /, but no, it turns out there is no order, but there is the usual fraud, with drumming and roaring timpani.
    It’s interesting if, in general, single-model tanks competed in the first biathlon, what will happen when foreign equipment is allowed for subsequent biathlon? Something is getting alarming.
    1. Patton5
      Patton5 10 November 2013 11: 22 New
      0
      If they are on the drill and sell it, it will be a push in the ass, everyone will objectively see what the T-72 is capable of ... But it seems to me that they will put up some kind of T-90ms, with a super trained crew, the prestige of the country after all. In short, they will arrange another window dressing for "urapatriots that have no analogues" ..... I would very much like to be wrong recourse
      а
  • Zhenya
    Zhenya 9 November 2013 13: 01 New
    +1
    The author is well done! Indeed, the t-72 has outlived its time and bet on a tank that is 40 years old - it just doesn’t give a damn about the lives of guys. Armata is still MYTH and it is necessary to rely on t-90cm, which will somehow update the fleet of old cars.
  • svp67
    svp67 9 November 2013 13: 06 New
    +3
    Quote: Marrying
    The author is well done!

    I do not argue, but only SUPPORT !!!
    Quote: Marrying
    Indeed, t-72 has outlived its time and bet on a tank that is 40 years old - it just does not give a damn about the lives of guys.

    These tanks, almost a dozen thousand ... and discarding them is a crime, you just need to carry out the ADEQUATE modernization, and for REASONABLE money. Both that and it is POSSIBLE ...
    Quote: Marrying
    Armata is still MYTH and it is necessary to bet on t-90cm, which will somehow update the fleet of old cars.

    One does not interfere with the other, the modernization of T72 - at repair plants, the release of T90Ms on the "main conveyor" ...
    1. Aleks tv
      9 November 2013 13: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Marrying
      Indeed, t-72 has outlived its time and bet on a tank that is 40 years old - it just does not give a damn about the lives of guys.


      Quote: svp67
      These tanks, almost a dozen thousand ... and discarding them is a crime, you just need to carry out the ADEQUATE modernization, and for REASONABLE money. Both that and it is POSSIBLE ...

      Sergey, I SUBSCRIBE TO EVERY WORD.
      You just need adequate ... before modernization.
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 9 November 2013 15: 49 New
      +4
      Quote: Marrying
      Indeed, t-72 has outlived its time and bet on a tank that is 40 years old - it just does not give a damn about the lives of guys.

      Have you read the articles?
      The author writes not about the fact that the T-72 is bad, but about how spv67 rightly notes: "There are almost tens of thousands of these tanks ... and discounting them is a crime, you just need to carry out the modernization ADEQUATE, and for SANE money."
  • Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 9 November 2013 13: 15 New
    +4
    Driving technologists, planting designers, the director of the enterprise should already sit for such "modernization", "economy" and dumping everything on the lack of money. At the plant, reduce the thugs, idlers, "relatives." Create a special team to interact with military units and identify deficiencies in the design of equipment and its control during combat operations. The military acceptance should also check that the requirements of military units are taken into account during the modernization, repair and creation of equipment. The described in the article also takes place in other areas (aviation, navy, etc.). Introduce strict discipline and responsibility, first of all, for directors, chief engineers, production managers, chiefs of supply, including criminal responsibility. There should be work, not a feeding trough.
    1. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 10 November 2013 02: 14 New
      +1
      Oh, what good wishes! :) But while those who are sitting in the Kremlin and in the Duma, until then the demands of the army and targeted funding will be a dream, and those who mow will never be held responsible.
  • family tree
    family tree 9 November 2013 13: 28 New
    +6
    Thanks a lot to the author! hi
  • Prapor-527
    Prapor-527 9 November 2013 13: 29 New
    0
    Quote: svp67
    Yes, apparently "helluva lot", SO to manage to "drink" some money ...
    By the way, Alexey - installing a caterpillar "a, la T80" instead of the native one, with the same engine, is not the best option, it is more "stiff", which has a good effect on driving at high speeds, but increases the resistance to movement, which affects the increase in fuel consumption ... Interestingly, the T72B3 was "driven" to "full range" with one refueling ...
    How many hits from the RPG did the T-72 withstand on New Year's Eve in Grozny? Given that the NDZ blocks were without explosives ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 9 November 2013 13: 44 New
      +3
      Quote: Prapor-527
      How many hits from the RPG did the T-72 withstand on New Year's Eve in Grozny?

      Dear, this is roulette. Sometimes one is enough, ask Barankevich.
  • tchoni
    tchoni 9 November 2013 14: 06 New
    +2
    Yes. Very interesting. Thanks to the author.

    Am I interested in something else? why com. We don’t like tanks so much.
    His surveillance devices are trouble. and in my opinion on all domestic tanks.
    1. svp67
      svp67 9 November 2013 20: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: tchoni
      His surveillance devices are trouble. and in my opinion on all domestic tanks.

      But why. On T80U and T90, "steps were taken in the right direction"
  • Algor73
    Algor73 9 November 2013 14: 54 New
    +5
    One feels that the practitioner wrote, not the theorist (especially with UVZ). And about Serdyukov that he wrote with a small letter. According to this principle, in Ukraine all ministers are written with a small one.
  • Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 9 November 2013 15: 00 New
    +1
    Yeah, a depressing sight ...
  • Crrusader40
    Crrusader40 9 November 2013 15: 17 New
    +1
    Very scary and dangerous beast
  • il-z
    il-z 9 November 2013 15: 40 New
    +4
    Thank you "Mazut" for the truth.
    I feel that we will have to do so in spite of and in spite of this "army" of effective managers, sycophants and popolizov to live, serve and, God forbid, fight.
  • AlexA
    AlexA 9 November 2013 15: 41 New
    +4
    Respect to the author. Precisely, technically competent. Emotionless. With knowledge of the matter. Maybe one of the decision makers will read such materials? Or we all learn to throw out of the seats those who do not want to read. Otherwise - n ... c.
  • Bogranz
    Bogranz 9 November 2013 15: 51 New
    +3
    Many thanks to the author for the non-biased and objective article. I read it with pleasure and wanted ... to swear.
  • Ka-52
    Ka-52 9 November 2013 16: 01 New
    +7
    Creating a simple circular defense is not a caterpillar ballistic missile submarine flying to Mars. Everything is much, much simpler. And inexpensive. The question is why are we doing this?


    I will try to answer laughing

    Early morning. Monsieur Serdyukov, scratching his "work callus", gets out of bed. At this moment, Mrs. Vasilyeva, covering herself with a blanket in his bed, sighs languidly and pouts her lips in a capricious voice: “Dear, did you see what the General Staff sent us yesterday? And Irochka needs a new car! And Allochka wanted to fly to Paris, she wanted to buy a dress from Cardin from the new collection. YES, and you promised me a necklace, well, you remember for 300 thousand dollars. Now even Skrynnik will envy me. "
    Serdyukov grunts indistinctly, puts on slippers with pumpons and goes into the bathroom. There, purring under his breath: "We are not stokers, we are not carpenters ..", - accepts water procedures.

    Something like this, + general disorder and irresponsibility hi
    1. Eugeniy_369
      Eugeniy_369 9 November 2013 17: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Ka-52
      I will try to answer

      Oh comedian laughing .
  • gallville
    gallville 9 November 2013 16: 33 New
    +3
    The concept of the General Staff in relation to the existing fleet of tanks in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation is visible:
    - Reliance on the existing park T-90.
    - Liquidation of machines of the T-80 family.
    - Upgrade the T-72 to the level T-72B3.
    Hence:
    T-90 around 500 pcs.
    The rest of the niche will occupy T-72B3.

    And it will be BEFORE the arrival of "Almaty".
    But Armata is still at the design and testing stage.
    In order for it to go into series, a long-term cycle of state and military tests is necessary. And only after that it will be possible to talk about serial deliveries of the volumes that the military-industrial complex will be able to provide and pay for the Defense Ministry under the rearmament state program.

    So ... We are entering the XXI century, before entering the linear armored units and units, "Armaty" with ... the current version of T-72B3?

    Complete decommissioning of the T-80 by 2015, at the current pace of modernization to B3 level of 100-200 units.

    In stock 2013 total:
    T-90A - 500 pcs.
    T-80 - 4000 pcs.
    T-72 - 9000 thousand units.

    Estimated presence in the troops in 2013 (according to the reform of 2000 units of 5000 units in storage):
    T-90 - 500 pcs.
    T-72B, B3 - 600 pcs.
    T - 80 - 900 pcs. At the time of 2013


    By 2015, the T-80 is withdrawn from service. Replacement T-72.
    150 T-72B3 arrive annually .. At the time of 2013, about 300 units were already delivered. So by 2015 .... 150 units * 2 years another 300. Total 300 + 300 = 600 units. B3
    What is the result:
    2015 year
    T-90A - 500 units.
    T-72B3 - 600 units

    T-72B - 900 units. at the time of 2015. - in the active parts instead of the T-80.

    Z.Y. The figures are taken from open sources, therefore, can fluctuate reflecting the overall picture.
  • 31231
    31231 9 November 2013 16: 51 New
    +1
    Well written. I read it with pleasure.
    Yeah, Serdyukovsky slabs ordered the military-industrial complex a tank for an estimate, and not for tankers.
    Let's hope that Shoigu has an adequate deputies and General Staff.
  • Watchman
    Watchman 9 November 2013 17: 10 New
    +1
    Why didn’t B2 join the troops? Is it more expensive or worse?
    1. PLO
      PLO 9 November 2013 17: 19 New
      +1
      Why didn’t B2 join the troops? Is it more expensive or worse?

      B2 is much better
      that was exactly what the correct modernization of the T-72B should have been ..
  • Moore
    Moore 9 November 2013 18: 12 New
    +1
    Thanks to the author. It would be nice to see the opinions of experts on other "unique" samples.
  • Vlad_Mir
    Vlad_Mir 9 November 2013 18: 36 New
    +2
    I am not an expert on tanks, but I look at the "half-naked" turret and somehow it becomes uncomfortable. The first shot from a grenade launcher can be fatal!
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 9 November 2013 18: 49 New
    +2
    As always! At exhibitions and in high-ranking comments one thing, but in kind - another!
    Margelov sent his son, for experimental landing of the crew in equipment, and here, it is necessary to form the crew from the responsible bureaucrats from the Armed Forces and the defense industry and launch it on a full cycle of military tests, up to the test for survivability. Maybe fear for his own skin will make him join the work.
  • Aleks tv
    9 November 2013 18: 53 New
    +7
    Thank you all very much for your feedback on this article. Not expected…
    repeat
    T-72B for me is not just a tank, but a MACHINE WITH LARGE LETTERS. Too many things are connected with her ...
    To bring to mind the T-72B3 is not difficult and, not least - NOT expensive. Then the legendary 40 summer "Turtle" will still show "Kuz'kin's mother."

    Indeed, articles on various topics from members of the forum would be very pleased, The army is Big ...
    wink
    1. Watchman
      Watchman 9 November 2013 19: 17 New
      +2
      Thank you for the article. You won’t get objective estimates from the media!
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 9 November 2013 19: 52 New
    +2
    Thanks for the work you've done"... hi

    Of particular interest was the selection of PHOTOS ... good

    The conclusion is sad ... I saw the dough and the complete FUN! crying
    1. Aleks tv
      9 November 2013 20: 25 New
      +4
      Quote: sergey158-29
      The conclusion is sad ... I saw the dough and the complete FUN!

      Sergey, we (tankers) are not pessimists belay and not optimists fellow .
      We are realists. wink
      The guys also serve on simple T-72Б.
      And here is a whole T-72Б3.
      So the combat mission EVERYTHING WILL BE EQUIPPED.
      Simply ... it is desirable to keep the "fuel oil" .................
      Is it possible:
      - Bring to mind the modernization of the T-72Б3,
      - Stop (!!!) the collapse of the operation of the T-80 and also modernize lightly.
      That's all.
      And then - just wait for Armata.
      And this (already quite solid) equipment will be planned and gradually replaced, with further transfer to the mobile reserve to BHVT according to the standard of the USSR.

      And then it’s possible to live in peace - Ipmeria’s tank fist.
      Yes, he is now - ALIVE. yes

      drinks
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 10 November 2013 01: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Aleks tv
        Stop (!!!) the collapse of the operation of the T-80

        as a specialist, answer ... why is it poorly used in hot countries ... they say in Dubai ... it stalled due to dust that completely clogged the turbines .... and what to do in hot countries if the T-80 is good, but its use creates there are problems in the south .. as far as I know, there were few in the T-80 ZAKVO, and then for familiarization ... and they were not used in battles here ..
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 10 November 2013 02: 21 New
          0
          T-80 participated in Chechnya and, unfortunately, also burned .. But if the gas turbine engine is expensive to operate, then why not upgrade the existing T-80U in the T-80UD, with a 6TD diesel engine. Can the T-72 fully replace the T-80?
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 10 November 2013 02: 34 New
            +1
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            Can the T-72 fully replace the T-80?

            so what kind of tank is all the same the best) 0 everyone who rode on some praises his own)) on the recruiting station begged to be taken into the tank troops .. watched films about the T-34))) now having read all the articles and comments I thank the previous commission, that sent to the air force laughing
            1. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 10 November 2013 03: 24 New
              0
              If we compare the purely driving virtues, even the T-80U, even the T-80UD with the most sophisticated T-90, then the latter loses. Therefore, the T-80 base for further modernization would be better.
        2. Aleks tv
          10 November 2013 02: 42 New
          0
          Quote: smersh70
          as a specialist, answer ... why is it poorly used in hot countries ... they say in Dubai ... it stalled due to dust that completely clogged the turbines .... and what to do in hot countries if the T-80 is good, but its use creates there are problems in the south .. as far as I know, there were few in the T-80 CLOSURE, and then for review ...

          Vurgun, I’m not a specialist in gas turbine engine.
          But in Dubai, as far as I remember, the T-80 left all the "foreigners" in the sands ...
      2. Orakul2000
        Orakul2000 12 November 2013 07: 05 New
        +1
        Alex
        Thank you very much for the article and comments on it, everything is very interesting !!!
  • alone
    alone 9 November 2013 20: 28 New
    +2
    in general, the T-72 in terms of modernization is a unique tank. It can be upgraded to infinity.))
  • The fat man
    The fat man 9 November 2013 20: 42 New
    0
    [quote = alekseev] [quote = Zheka] Due to lobbying the T-72 for its modernizations and descendants, the excellent T-80U tank was out of work [/ quote]
    If you could find a way for the GTE to stop eating kerosene "like a bull's slop", and to make it cheaper and more maintainable, then, undoubtedly having its own advantages, the GTD-1250 would take the place of a diesel engine in MBT.
    Do not forget that gas turbine engines can be omnivorous instead of kerosene and crude oil and diesel, but you can mix everything and save on fuel and lubricants, but no problems when starting the engine and warming up
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 9 November 2013 20: 51 New
      0
      Quote: Fat Man
      Do not forget that GTE is omnivorous, you can pour in crude oil instead of kerosene

      Try pouring crude oil into a gas turbine engine -1250F ... If only the loggers (or suckers, I don’t know exactly who are now) would be glad if it were possible ... A gas turbine engine is not a tractor engine of the early 20th century with ignition, crude oil worked poorly. request
      However, it’s not all about sad things, tank crews need some fun sometimes. laughing
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 9 November 2013 22: 41 New
      0
      Quote: Fat Man
      Do not forget that GTE is omnivorous, you can pour in crude oil instead of kerosene

      If I am not mistaken, kerosene is 4 times cheaper than diesel fuel. We would have counted in rubles how much a 100 km diesel run on a solarium and gas turbine engine on kerosene cost.
      Another question is which tank is cheaper to operate.
      1. The fat man
        The fat man 9 November 2013 23: 27 New
        0
        alas I can’t say anything about it
        and at the expense of the cheapness of the exotation as a mechanic, I also dealt with diesel engines and gas turbine engines, but for Russian realities it is better than gas turbine engines
      2. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 10 November 2013 03: 05 New
        -1
        Is diesel not a waste in the manufacture of gasoline, kerosene? That is, oil is divided into fractions ... gasoline-kerosene-diesel-fuel oil .. Diesel can be made from everything and tons of oil is enough to make more diesel than kerosene, or not? So, I found this opinion: If we take the GTD-1000 (1250), for the T-80 tanks, then the main fuel there is diesel fuel, the backup fuel is kerosene, and the reserve fuel is gasoline. In peaceful life, they travel exclusively with reserve fuel (kerosene), in a combat situation it is supposed to refuel with the main (diesel fuel).
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 10 November 2013 15: 02 New
          +1
          You do not confuse the waste and high-quality fuels necessary for the normal operation of modern internal combustion engines. You don’t have to simplify too much.
          And for tank troops, the main thing is not how expensive the fuel is, but that it can be delivered in sufficient quantities under enemy fire to the tanks in wartime.
          Fuel, God forbid, a war, and not like the United States and companies with Iraq, but the real one, there will be no abundance, there will be a lack. As, by the way, and spare parts, rem. Fund and the repairmen themselves, too.
  • Irokez
    Irokez 9 November 2013 20: 49 New
    +2
    Maybe they emphasized increasing firepower in the T-72B3 knowing that the rest of the protection can always be built up in any workshops and units in a short time and there is no need to mess with it right now in peacetime. Although, of course, the approach to this modernization is as always, and not the best.
  • maxcor1974
    maxcor1974 9 November 2013 21: 39 New
    +1
    Many thanks to the author for the work done.
  • Penek
    Penek 9 November 2013 22: 06 New
    +1
    Far from the tank theme, but THIS IS THE MAIN IMPACT STRENGTH OF THE RF AF, damn it! Is it again Heroes of Russia (posthumously)? It's a shame ..
  • dart_noos
    dart_noos 9 November 2013 22: 07 New
    +3
    Here's what I found on the Izvestia website. "The troops are surprised that the T-72M1 model, designed for Algeria at a price of 50 million too, is equipped with an automatic target tracking system, digital sensors for corrections and weather conditions, a remote anti-aircraft gun and air conditioning. In Russian models, the electronics are" at the level of the last century "" ... Apparently, it took less to rollback ...
    1. avg
      avg 9 November 2013 22: 13 New
      +3
      Quote: dart_noos
      The troops are surprised that the T-72M1 model, designed for Algeria at a price of also 50 million, is equipped with an automatic target tracking system, digital sensors for corrections and weather conditions, a remote anti-aircraft installation and air conditioning.

      Nothing personal just business. It would be nice to find out whose?
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt 9 November 2013 22: 20 New
    +3
    It's not just a question of comparison, but a question of the price of victory in a real battle. When will they stop just spanking "little blood" with their lips, but will they think? It's probably too early to talk about it! Not ready, either the authorities, or the country for a real fight against corruption and bureaucracy. What is the case of Serdyukov and his gangs - well, they cannot do anything, but with General Shemyakin, Colonels Budanov, Kvachkov, Khabarov and probably dozens of unknowns to us - everything turns out quickly, efficiently and without alternative, which suggests not the triumph of law, but about political expediency or individual personal ambitions!
  • The fat man
    The fat man 9 November 2013 22: 26 New
    +2
    Quote: Alekseev
    Try pouring crude oil into a gas turbine engine -1250F ... I wish the loggers (or suckers, I don’t know exactly who now) were delighted

    dear, let me object as a turbine mechanic, nozzles may clog up and the combustion chamber will accumulate, but maybe due to crude oil, it got excited but nonetheless. if instead of kerosene pour a different type of fuel. nothing bad will happen, the worst thing is to replace the air filters more often since the air flow will increase significantly
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 10 November 2013 10: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Fat Man
      let me object as a turbinist

      Let me answer you like a poet: "The theory is boring, my friend, but the tree of life is flourishing."
      You can not compare a gas turbine with a power plant, a ship with an aircraft or tank GTE.
      All that we discuss is well known what kind of fuel is needed (and how many hours it is permissible to work on it) written in IE and TO.
      The factory does not strongly recommend its own notions in operation.
      And how much kerosene costs is well known in any airline, for the summer of 2013 more than 36 tr., Diesel fuel is cheaper, but its gas turbine engine eats a little more, and kerosene for a gas turbine engine is still "dearer", if it were not so, then and planes would be refueled by diesel fuel.
      And what happens if the premium injectors "smoke" (and how much it costs) even many motorists know. wassat
      Tank GTE is a complex and expensive unit that requires high-quality fuel and lubricants and, in operating conditions in a tank, fuel consumption, especially in variable modes, which distinguishes driving on the ground from an aircraft flight, and is currently not competitive with a diesel engine.
      Which, in fact, is proved by the development of the world tank engine building.
  • The fat man
    The fat man 9 November 2013 22: 35 New
    +3
    Quote: avg
    Quote: dart_noos
    The troops are surprised that the T-72M1 model, designed for Algeria at a price of also 50 million, is equipped with an automatic target tracking system, digital sensors for corrections and weather conditions, a remote anti-aircraft installation and air conditioning.

    Nothing personal just business. It would be nice to find out whose?

    Remember in the days of the USSR, cars for export were distinguished by quality compared to the domestic market. So nothing has changed
  • Sinbad
    Sinbad 9 November 2013 23: 05 New
    +2
    Thank you for the article! Very informative. I drove 72 in 1981 ... 1983 (in study 64), I still dream about it. It is very sad that there are so few improvements in so many years. The most important thing is dynamic protection, and they put it, as it turns out, "clumsily". And the car, in spite of everything, is wonderful!
  • okroshka79
    okroshka79 9 November 2013 23: 10 New
    +3
    The content of the article evokes great respect for its author, who, apparently, has extensive experience in the combat use of tanks not only at a tank training ground, but also in battle. A detailed analysis of various structural elements and units of the modernization of the tank shows, using the example of the common misfortune of our Armed Forces - the complete collapse of military science. After all, not the General Staff of the Armed Forces, not the GABTU or GRAU or others, let's say, ordering departments should develop TTZ for modernization, but the research institutes of the corresponding Types of Aircraft under the control and with the direct participation of these ordering departments. Based on the analysis of the development of world trends, future military threats, the development of science and technology, the production capabilities of manufacturing plants. And they were defeated by reductions and "reforms and optimizations." Now there is a reaping of the fruits that was heaped up. Another difference from the "days of the past": before the beginning of the "perestroika-shootout" times in the central special directorates of the Armed Forces, military research institutes gathered the best specialists from all over the country and presented good, naturally, free housing. That is why competent and sophisticated operating experience and BP specialists served and were really useful in them. With the advent of market relations, only those who had their own housing in Moscow now serve in these military organizations, so one wonders why there are many mediocrities there. After all, Russia is famous for its talents, not Moscow. That is, it seems that this modernization of the tank is a reflection of a deep systemic crisis in the creation, modernization and production of military equipment and equipment. And there is no need to talk about the military development of our Armed Forces (or rather, its shyness), all for the same reasons.
    1. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 10 November 2013 03: 16 New
      0
      Something market relations do not prevent the same Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks from modernizing or making new equipment? I'm not even talking about countries such as Germany, Sweden ... In my opinion, the problem is that there is no competition between design bureaus in Russia, UVZ crushed everything for itself, the same Omsk people with their deep and promising modernization ob 640 "Black Eagle" like also now under UVZ. But when was this Ob.640 tested? How many years have passed! It would have been possible to supply the army with an excellent modernization of the T-80 for a long time .. Unfortunately, at the top of the UVZ, in the Ministry of Defense and General Staff there are people who seem to have other interests in the first place, after all, big money is being mastered .. and how quickly it ends!
  • flanker7
    flanker7 9 November 2013 23: 14 New
    +4
    The decommissioning of the T-80, along with the "specific performance" of the T-72B3 modification, I consider a sabotage carried out by the RF Ministry of Defense once again.
  • Bugor
    Bugor 10 November 2013 00: 47 New
    +2
    Thank you so much to the author!
    Question to GSH and MO:
    "IT and are there my taxes ????? "
    I would put it to the wall for this.
    19th century destroyer tower to protect the commander - THIS is my taxes ????
    The experience of local conflicts - it is paid in blood - WHERE are my taxes? Why not in the form of DZ on the entire surface of the tank? I do not care about the weight of this protection, they take money from my pocket to pay for the training of students in TCU, and then this money will be returned in the form of coffins? I pay all kinds of research institutes for the development of remote sensing and engines, armor and guns, and WHERE is all this?
    I look at the zombie tank biathlon and cry. The commander doesn’t get out of the machine gun, the gunner’s gunner, the mechanic’s driver goes past the track, in the fighting compartment there’s smoke after a shot, as in hell, the clutches are wedged, the crews don’t hear commands, and all this in the 21st century ???? Oh my God...
    And they read on the box of mantra - Armata-armata-armata .....
    Joseph Vissarionovich, where are YOU?
  • sapran
    sapran 10 November 2013 03: 30 New
    +3
    Aleksey read about MTO and became sad :(. The approach to MO is "international":
    1. Of the several options for upgrading 64 to Bulat, we also chose the cheapest ...
    2. The most annoying Alexey is that even with the fact that you have 64 cuts, their Komadir towers with ZPUs could be adapted without special problems during the modernization of the T-72 (if they already save so much)
    3. Instead of unification with "Vladimir", at least in MTO and command instruments, a very truncated version was adopted that does not help with visibility (and target detection is already half the battle)
    4. APU, as I understand it, decided not to introduce it, and the starter-generator itself was not replaced, respectively, it is not possible to use more energy-intensive devices and it is impossible to put sights.
    Such economy is angry (protection is not subject to evaluation at all), but is it possible that simply the General Staff rate goes to other types of troops? In general, time will put everything in its place. The main thing is to be peaceful ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 November 2013 09: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: sapran
      1. Of the several options for upgrading 64 to Bulat, we also chose the cheapest ...

      And it’s 2 times cheaper than upgrading the T-72Б3, while in my superficial view BM Bulat is the best. And the only major drawback is that it’s not connected with money, but a reserved panorama.
      1. sapran
        sapran 10 November 2013 11: 28 New
        0
        Kars, as it were, is softer ... it's not quite true.
        1 Asked 6TD received 5TDFM (and some machines are just 5TDF unfocused)
        2. The radio stations were mainly set by the ancients (I understood the new ones only for Georgia)
        3 Panorama + nightlight didn’t break into us (though in general the Sighting complex and surveillance devices will be better)
        4. APU, again, only for foreign customers
        5. hodovke asked for trivia 5 more points received a fig.
        6. The developments from the "Banana" theme were not implemented, and this is an increase in the survivability of the machine by almost 1,7 times!
        7. and of course the quantity and quality of the work done here we have a "hat" and the language of the complaint to the plant is particularly unrelenting, since the money is almost not reaching them :(!
        So the advantages we have are bright, but in return for improving the fleet of the Supreme Zrada, they can improve cars for the escho of one brigade
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 10 November 2013 11: 48 New
          0
          Quote: sapran
          1 Asked 6TD received 5TDFM (and some machines are just 5TDF unfocused)

          Here the reason may be the same as, in due time, among the Petersburgers, who installed a 64-strong turbine on the T-1000 - the chassis does not pull.
          1. sapran
            sapran 10 November 2013 11: 58 New
            0
            Chassis, or more precisely, BKP "pull up to 1250 hp
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 10 November 2013 13: 00 New
              0
              Quote: sapran
              Chassis, or more precisely, BKP "pull up to 1250 hp

              As for the T-64 tank, not my opinion, this is from the history of the T-80.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 10 November 2013 15: 53 New
                0
                "..... we use the" Diary "of the chief designer of the T-64 tank AA Morozov [18]. Many spoke about the unreliability of the T-64A running gear (object 434) and the need to improve it:
                - wrote A.A. Morozov March 5, 1973 and believed that the chassis of the T-64A is a "bone of contention" between the Kharkov plant of transport engineering them. Malysheva (HZTM) and the Leningrad Kirov Plant (LKZ). (The latter was instructed to install a gas turbine engine in the T-64 tank, and the LKZ insisted on using its undercarriage instead of the unreliable Kharkiv with metal rims of track rollers with a diameter of 550 mm and a metal track track. In 1971, a new T-80 tank was installed chassis with rubberized track rollers with a diameter of 670 mm and a track with a rubberized treadmill. Since 1985, Kharkov dwellers had to start using the chassis of the T-80 tank on the T-80UD tank [21, 22];
                - said the director of the KhZTM O.V. twice at meetings Soich. He owns the words: “The 434 chassis is unacceptable for perspectives and modernization, you cannot develop a car on this chassis” (“The director is aggressive,” A. Morozov noted);
                - insisted the Deputy Minister of Defense Industry L.A. Voronin, who proposed taking as a basis for a promising tank being developed by Morozov Design Bureau - object "450" ​​the chassis of the UVZ or LKZ;
                - the arguments of the director of the lead tank institute VNII-100 (VNIITM) V.B. Proskuryakov and E.K. Potemkin. Proskuryakov, reporting at a meeting with the Minister of Defense Industry on April 4, 1974, about testing an institute prototype of a tank weighing 45–46 tons with a view to testing promising structural elements of the chassis, listed its components, highlighting track rollers with a diameter of 750 mm, six pieces on each side (as on the T-72 tank!).

                Potemkin: “The T-72 has a reserve for the development of weight. On the T-64A this is not, especially on the chassis ... "

                Finally, there is the competent opinion of Yu.P. Kostenko, cited above, that the T-64 tank's weight reserve was initially only 8,3%. And the increase in the mass of the Ukrainian tank by 2005 in comparison with the T-64A was 27,6%! (for the T-64A, the mass is 38 tons; for the T-84 - 48,5 tons [22]) ...... "
                1. sapran
                  sapran 10 November 2013 18: 59 New
                  0
                  I’ll ask a simple question. Have you read the diaries yourself, or have you only read extracts from the "Armament Techniques" or by Gur-Khan?
                  The issue has been discussed more than once and is a reason for holivar of any scale. The difference in weight between the T-80 of Leningrad and the T-64 BM "Bulat" is about 8-10 tons in the larger direction at Bulat. Comparative tests were carried out regarding the reliability of various chassis ...
                  There is a drawback, and it is serious only in one thing - he sat down to the very tomatoes, and if you choose between three road wheels, then the "lesser evil" will naturally be behind the hodovka from the T-80, and the decision to replace three types of MBT was in favor of the T family -80U (UD) here you and the north here you and Europe (but that was for the USSR)
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 10 November 2013 19: 14 New
                    0
                    Quote: sapran
                    Have you read the diaries yourself, or have you only read the excerpts from "Armament Techniques" or by Gur-Khan?

                    Well, let's remove the diaries from the arguments, and return to the appearance of the T-80 tank. Information on this subject is full. Everywhere the reason why the gas turbine tank is running is not from the T-64, only one is indicated - even for the 1000-horsepower engine and the tank’s weight that was tested, it was weak.
                    1. sapran
                      sapran 10 November 2013 20: 53 New
                      0
                      1000 hp 6TD were installed on the T-64 in the last installment of problems and horrors declared by the Leningraders. The fact is that for the development of just a MTO with a gas turbine engine there is one prize and awards, but for the development of a new tank (it sounds proudly and significantly) a completely different honor and respect. and the second side of the coin is that the path that went to Leningrad, Omsk and Nizhny Tagil was expected to be a planned increase in MBT weight from modification to modification of the 27% indicated above by you, which was considered an evil by A. Morozov who considered this direction a dead end.
        2. Kars
          Kars 10 November 2013 16: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: sapran
          Kars is, as it were, softer ... not quite

          What you asked for and what you received is understandable. But at the output of BM Bulat it still looks better. And there is no limit to perfection. And I would love to see that if it turned out, let me upgrade a T-64 52 million rubles.
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 November 2013 16: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: sapran
            and of course the quantity and quality of the work carried out here we have a "hat" at which language to make a complaint to the plant

            And what kind of quality problems? About 100 BM Damask steel delivered? They have already crumbled? Or what?
          2. sapran
            sapran 10 November 2013 19: 01 New
            0
            The batch of cars that ended up in "Honduras" badly frayed the nerves of the deputies ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 November 2013 19: 39 New
              +1
              Quote: sapran
              in "Honduras"

              is this country? or potter?
  • alex86
    alex86 10 November 2013 08: 55 New
    +2
    It became sad - it always seemed to me that the protection by the DZ blocks was somehow strange, and now it is clearly visible that it is simply stupidly installed. How much% of the surface does it protect, interesting?
    And so I will say - since we don’t know how to protect towers of this form (do not want to?), We need to switch to welded with flat surfaces - there it will be easier for these losers to even arrange DZ ...
    Very upset.
  • DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 10 November 2013 09: 51 New
    0
    Many thanks to the author for the article. Witch's kiss .... eternal memory of fallen soldiers. The engine of the B2 series is very good .... for t34. I had to talk a lot with these engines. He deserves nothing but curses. Power was checked at the stand. One engine produced 480 liters out of 500 declared. The rest are 450-460 and one 430hp Below 5 frost, only one engine was started, which gave out 480hp. And even then only to -15. All others required heating by starting heaters. Adjustment of the high-pressure fuel pump and the start of fuel supply did not give results. A very dirty engine oil runs out of all the cracks. But it’s a joke whether the cylinder blocks are installed on the crankcase without gaskets. Oil consumption is just a laugh through tears 2 ... 3 hours of operation pour a bucket of oil without looking. Then you check the oil level in the tank and add more. Fuel consumption oh god !!!!!! Injector repair manual: clean the nozzle holes .... with a wire with a diameter of 0.8 mm !!!!!!!!! Holes 8. I hope it is clear what fuel consumption. Gaskets under the head burn out with enviable regularity. There are a lot of problems. And what good the engine is, well, the exhaust sound is beautiful, formidable such a roar. Electrical equipment ... a constant generator, a 6 kg charge relay weighing ... shock. Contactor starter 10 grams of silver, why the hell? The engine of the tank requires urgent replacement. I remember reading about the IL-2 diesel engine with a power of 1500 hp. namely diesel. Raise old tech cards to upgrade. Optimize timing phases. Optimize combustion chamber. maybe it would. You can’t hope for engine X. It turns out to be a CPG from B2. Well, most of the problems are from there. Can steal engines from a leopard?
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 10 November 2013 09: 59 New
      0
      why so gloomy ?! X-shaped is a great idea, and apart from the controversial Ukrainian two-stroke, I do not see better. As for the quality of implementation - you have to stand nearby and beat, beat with all your might on the hands - the manufacturer’s manual
      1. Patton5
        Patton5 10 November 2013 11: 51 New
        +1
        You didn’t put it right, not controversial but non-alternative .... with its power and overall dimensions
        1. ramsi
          ramsi 10 November 2013 12: 11 New
          0
          so X-shaped worse ?!
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 10 November 2013 14: 52 New
          0
          Quote: Patton5
          You didn’t put it right, not controversial but non-alternative .... with its power and overall dimensions

          Alternative, alternative with his, nowhere to see the flaws.
          In my opinion, it is written most fully, competently, without hysterics and additions, why 5TDF-6TD are very alternative, it is written in the well-known article "Russia is not going to acquire Ukrainian tanks"
          Type in a search engine and read if interesting.
          1. Patton5
            Patton5 10 November 2013 15: 51 New
            +1
            The most important conclusion of the article
            Publications about the T-84 tank in the Russian press will certainly do a disservice to the tank builders of Ukraine, as forced specialists of UKBTM identify part of the shortcomings of the T-84. However, maybe in other countries there are potential buyers of these tanks, because Russia is not going to purchase them.
            Votya would be surprised if they began to praise him laughing
          2. Patton5
            Patton5 10 November 2013 16: 01 New
            0
            It would be necessary to ask these specialists to identify the shortcomings of the T-72b3, otherwise the Ural tanks will be the best of the best, just "super", but for some reason, when the USSR was a promising and united Leningrad-Kharkov disgusting T-80ud ... read if it is interesting /btvt.narod.ru/4/t-64_t-72.htm
            1. Kars
              Kars 10 November 2013 16: 06 New
              +2
              Quote: Patton5
              USSR promising and united was to become the Leningrad-Kharkov disgusting T-80ud ...

              And by the way, for some reason, they armed the court Kantemirov and Toman divisions.
              1. Sinbad
                Sinbad 12 November 2013 13: 24 New
                0
                Respected! Division Tamanskaya, guards!
            2. svp67
              svp67 25 November 2013 19: 58 New
              +1
              Quote: Patton5
              but for some reason, when the USSR was in place, the Leningrad-Kharkov disgusting T-80ud was supposed to be promising and uniform ...

              Well, let's start with the fact that the T80U was to become one ... and at that moment it was the BEST tank, even the first T90 was inferior to it ...
          3. Patton5
            Patton5 10 November 2013 16: 24 New
            0
            and another article, in my opinion interesting ... how much objective I do not know http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/bulat-leo2.htm
            1. Alekseev
              Alekseev 10 November 2013 17: 49 New
              +3
              Quote: Patton5
              Leningradsko-Kharkov disgusting T-80ud was to become promising and unified ...

              He, not disgusting, does not have to be exaggerated.
              At us, in the USSR, everyone was good, which led to the phenomenon of the 3-MBT model in service! yes
              And the flaws of the T-72B3 in the aforementioned article could not be listed by the respected authors, since at the time of writing it there weren’t any B3 yet. request
              But the reasons why two-stroke diesel engines are more than "alternative" are described truthfully, which is, that is, I was convinced of this personally over many years of operation. And not one tanker, at least on this forum, does not declare the opposite.
              Otherwise, I would not recommend anyone to get acquainted with this article.
              These are mediocre motors, (which, of course, are not created from one drawback, they have well-known advantages). And the fact that these diesel engines are produced in Kharkov, in Ukraine is not an excuse for them.
              As well as no excuse for the Russian bosses in the disgusting modernization of the T-72 in the B3 variant.
              1. Kars
                Kars 10 November 2013 17: 56 New
                +1
                Quote: Alekseev
                . And not one tanker, at least on this forum, does not declare the opposite.

                So they don’t drive? Tanks with two-stroke diesel engines?

                Take offense at such an article?
                http://glavcom.blogspot.com/2012/03/90.html
                1. Alekseev
                  Alekseev 10 November 2013 18: 12 New
                  +1
                  Yes they go! request laughing
                  I stayed for 15 years! yes
                  Half of the GSVG, Yugoslavian Army and Kiev, and, in part, the Odessa Military District, drove them.
                  They ride, ride, but have serious shortcomings.
                  Dragging them, say, to Russia, especially from a sovereign state, and not from the former union republic, makes no sense either political, economic or military-technical.
                  Good about them, endless discussions got. wassat
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 November 2013 19: 47 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    They ride, ride, but have serious shortcomings.

                    Serious to what extent? To complete non-combat readiness? Or the fact that they should be better monitored?

                    Quote: Alekseev
                    Saving them, say, to Russia, especially from a sovereign state, and not from the former union republic, makes no sense either political, economic, or military-technical.

                    China drags here. Even though it has both German diesel engines and the Soviet 4, it has been producing 30 for years already.
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    Good about them, endless discussions got

                    Don’t mention it so - write yourself what drives.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 25 November 2013 20: 17 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Kars
                      Serious to what extent? To complete non-combat readiness? Or the fact that they should be better monitored?

                      The lower the ambient temperature, the higher the disadvantages ...
              2. Patton5
                Patton5 10 November 2013 20: 10 New
                0
                It's nice to read when a person, without pathos and distorting the facts, defends his point of view ... for this. +. For myself, I long ago decided that the T-72 is "a cuckoo's egg thrown into the nest of armored troops" with all the ensuing consequences, it's not bad ,,, but it's not a "swallow but a cuckoo"
                PS the article that you cite in the link is biased, in principle, like the one that leads kars
                1. Alekseev
                  Alekseev 11 November 2013 17: 28 New
                  0
                  Quote: Patton5
                  PS the article that you cite in the link is biased, in principle, like the one that leads kars

                  Well, Kars, this is understandable ... "Defeating" him is not possible. request Yes and no! May he abide in goodness ... yes "Serious to what extent? To complete non-combat readiness? Or that they should be better monitored?"
                  I don’t believe that such an avid BTT lover and patriot of Z. da Malysheva never read, even here, about what shortcomings and how to follow ... And as a patriot, it’s good, bad that the plant has been over 20 years old through a stump deck is financed and, accordingly, also works. High-tech industries cannot exist that way. Or maybe they can? Kars probably knows the secret! wink
                  But about the article that I pointed out in the link.
                  I would like you to specifically tell me what it is biased in regarding the specialists listing the shortcomings of 5TDF (6TD) diesel engines?
                  Where did you lie? Interesting.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 11 November 2013 17: 39 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    I have never read, at least here, about what shortcomings and how to follow ...

                    I read. As without it. But I would like specifically from YOU answer? To the loss of combat capability?
                    By the way, today SVP67 posted a story about Undemandingness - I read the comments of tankers operating the T-64 very, very positive reviews.

                    Quote: Alekseev
                    oh well, bad that the plant has been funded through the stump deck for more than 20 years and, accordingly, also works

                    Now is the time - there is not much demand for tanks. The British generally closed their last tank factory, while the Ukrainian at least somehow work.
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    Or maybe they can? Kars probably knows the secret!

                    and what’s the secret? Effective management, advertising, state protection - and just to finance - Ukraine does not need so many tanks.
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    Did you specifically tell me what it was biased in regarding the enumeration by specialists of the shortcomings of the 5TDF (6TD) diesel engines?

                    It’s enough because the specialists of the uralvagonzavod wrote this, and Gurk Khan had already canceled the Thai contract and the contract for the supply of engines to China several times.


                    So, just like that. Vsetaki eZdyut.
                    1. Alekseev
                      Alekseev 11 November 2013 18: 59 New
                      +1
                      I wrote to Patton, and here again Kars ... request
                      What kind of khan?
                      I was not interested in what kind of specialists the article was written from, from which research institute, or even UVZ.
                      Maybe I didn’t read what, I misunderstood correct, where did they lie? (Or maybe they didn’t read the article, surprised that the authors "not those")
                      And now, well, let's get ready for combat! drinks
                      As for the fact that they don’t drive at all, I didn’t say (see above)
                      He traveled a lot, yes! wink
                      And to interpret the same thing, somehow fed up.
                      I will try to be brief.
                      Two-stroke tank diesel engines developed in the USSR require ... no, no higher education is needed, but a high service culture, difficult to achieve in difficult combat conditions (about the conditions in Syria?)
                      They do not like heat, and cold, and dust. But they love butter! and DT more than others (not so much, 15-20 percent)
                      They do not forgive what other motors can forgive, for example, even a small loss of water. Or if you just pour water without sulfofilter and additives. And one more thing, they have already written about everything many times (read the article for the upcoming dream! laughing )
                      That is, maintaining combat readiness, especially in difficult conditions "life and activities of troops" much harder to organize than, say, on the same T-72.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 11 November 2013 19: 44 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        I wrote to Patton, and here again Kars ..

                        remember me)))
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        What kind of khan?

                        Are you really unfamiliar with the work of A. Khlopotov aka Gkrk Khan. Then you will find a lot of pleasure.
                        http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        in difficult combat conditions (about the conditions in Syria watched a movie?) service culture.

                        Well, Syria is certainly an indicator, but the USSR did not even think of selling T-64 countries to such countries. And operation in Pakistan is much different.
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        That is, maintaining combat readiness, especially in difficult conditions of "life and activity of troops" is much more difficult to organize than, say, on the same T-72.
                        Probably on the T-34 everything would be even simpler.
                  2. sapran
                    sapran 11 November 2013 18: 01 New
                    0
                    Excuse me. Do you write that the tanks were exploited? In what quality, with which models did you personally deal? and if it’s not difficult, what do you remember most about each car? Thanks in advance.
                    briefly began about himself with the "School of Young Tankmen" in Kiev, the head of the retired colonel Shpula 1989 the first T-34-85 vehicles and the chassis model BMP-2, T-54, T62D, T64A (BV) M, BM, T- 72A (B), T-80BV, T-80UD, all this took place in KVTIU (KISV) and h / in Ukraine in Cherkasy, Yavoriv, ​​Berdichev, Goncharovsk, etc.
                    1. Alekseev
                      Alekseev 11 November 2013 19: 19 New
                      0
                      I graduated from the Higher Technical School of Higher Education, served in both Europe and the Far East, including the UBT, the Kyrgyz Republic, the NShB, and a teacher of OP.
                      I had to operate the T-64A, B1 and BV, T-55, TO-55, T-62M, T-80B, and T-72 (by the way, it is smaller than other cars, even though they accuse me of allegiance to UVZ sometimes).
                      Now there is no time to answer your questions, and so I signed in the comments to the articles of Alexei as never before!
                      Write, if it’s not difficult in PM, I’ll definitely answer, if I know, of course.
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 10 November 2013 10: 58 New
      +2
      Where have you experienced such rarities?
      Written off at the sorting into the national economy, or what?
      According to the experience of operating diesel engines V-55, V-46, V-84, schematically repeating V-2 "such passion" was not observed.
      Some museum instructions - clean the wire with spray guns! wassat
      Yes, this motor was not a sample in terms of resource, oil consumption, etc., but
      The problems of the V-2 diesel engine were caused by the backward technology of the 30-40s.
      The technologies of today used in the production of parts of the same CPG (there have never been any special problems in the troops), crankshaft, fuel equipment and allowed to increase the motor power by 2 times.
      If such a power as that of V-92s (or, at least B-84) were tried to be removed from the V-2 of 1940 onwards, then it would simply fall apart.
      At the same time, of course, for the 21st century it is time to have a new engine and tank.
      Speaking of the "birds": a six-ton ​​Il-2 attack aircraft with a 1720 hp engine. flew with a "napruga", and only with a diesel engine of 1500 hp. would fly very "low" (and without bombs laughing)
    3. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 10 November 2013 12: 08 New
      +5
      Quote: DZ_98_B
      The engine of the B2 series is very good .... for t34.

      I skated on the T-62 for 2 years with the B-55B engine (580 horses). The company was with an increased consumption of motor resources. That is, these tanks participated in all regular firing and in all exercises. Only tanks of the training company rode more than us. I didn’t even hear about problems with the engine. I won’t say the fuel consumption (when the tanker came, filled the tanks to the very neck and skated until the next tanker arrived), oil was consumed, but sometimes after the march it was not necessary to add fuel - the level was normal.

      At 200-kilowatt diesel power plants, they often put tank derated engines - they had not been in operation for months (they used to work for half a year). Again, there were no problems with them. As a practitioner I say.