Military Review

Peresvet - true and fiction

123
An article was published earlier this year. Byl about the "monk" Peresvet. Or how the church to cling to the Russian feat I think it would be useful to see another point of view ...


Peresvet - true and fiction


Currently, it is questioned that Alexander Peresvet and Rodion Oslyabya were monks. Some argue that at the time of the Battle of Kulikovo they were not even Christians. Such a statement is contained in the article “Byl about the“ monk ”of Peresvet or how the church“ stuck it ”to the Russian feat. Is there any antidote to such attacks? Are there any scientific works confirming the position of the Church?

Hieromonk Job (Gumerov) answers:

We have before us a small note, at the end of which is the signature "Ozar the Raven". The real name of the author is Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov. The question of whether Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya were monks of the Trinity-Sergius monastery is just an excuse. The author’s goal is to convince the reader that the Church and the “churchmen” not only did not fight with foreign conquerors, but even helped them.

It is known that any slander comes from a demonic source. During the terrible invasion that swept the country in 1237 – 1240's, the Church, together with the princes and warriors, defended their land. Missing in 1240 year, during the storming of Kiev, Metropolitan Joseph. Many bishops, priests and monks died. A huge number of temples were destroyed or desecrated. When the struggle was over, the princes and the Church faced a difficult choice: either to recognize the conquest as a real fact, or to doom people to physical destruction, calling for further struggle.

A blessed prince Alexander Yaroslavich (Nevsky), who in 1242, accompanied his father, Grand Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich to the Horde, led a far-sighted and wise policy then. Upon the death of his father (1246), in 1247, he again went with his brother Andrey to the Horde. On this trip, he used two years and returned with a label on the reign in Kiev and Novgorod. Then, after another trip to the Horde, he received a Khan label for reigning in Vladimir. In total, the pious Prince Alexander Nevsky traveled to the Horde four times. Will Lev Rudolfovich have enough audacity to throw a stone at the great defender of the Russian land?

For 188 years (from 1242 to 1430), the Russian princes 70 once came to the Horde (VV Pokhlebkin. Tatars and Russia. 360 years of relations between Russia and the Tatar states in 1238-1598 years of M., 2000). The label confirming the grand-ducal power, received from Khan in 1361 year, and the Grand Duke Dimitriy Ivanovich (Donskoy). However, the author blames “clergymen” for the labels: “The labels that were awarded to the metropolitans of the Khans Mengu-Temir, Uzbek, Janibek and their descendants speak for themselves”. The author of the article is trying to build an accusation on the fact that the Church was completely exempt from all taxes. However, this is not at all connected with the “servility” of the metropolitans before the khans, but was based on the Great Yasa of Genghis Khan. “She was a Mongol imperial law formulated by Genghis Khan; and the Mongols themselves viewed it in that light. For them, it was the generalized wisdom of the founder of the empire ”(G.V. Vernadsky). Apparently, Lev Rudolfovich does not know about her. “He (Genghis Khan) ordered to respect all religions and not to show any preference for any of them (Makrizi, sect. II). This part of Yasy became the basis of the Mongolian policy of religious tolerance ”(G.V. Vernadsky. Mongols and Russia. Tver-Moscow, 1997). I will cite another opinion of the researcher. “In accordance with the Yasa code of laws, which was attributed to Chinggiskhan, his descendants were obliged to exempt clergymen from all taxes and duties” (Ivan Belozerov. Russian metropolitans and khans of the Golden Horde: a system of relations. - Vestnik MGU, ser.8, History, 2003, #3).

The author of the article under review is particularly trying to prove that the generally accepted opinion that Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya were monks, a myth. Since the author has set a goal to overthrow the 600-year-old historical tradition, enshrined in the works of prominent historians of the XIX-XX centuries (N. M. Karamzin, S. M. Solovyov, S. F. Platonov, etc.), it is natural to expect serious research, knowledge of scientific literature , source analysis and accurate links.

There is nothing like this. Everything is relative. SM Soloviev, who compiled 29-a hard work, who devoted a lot of time to studying sources, writes: “Before the performance from Moscow, the Grand Duke went to the Trinity Monastery, recently founded by St. the hermit Sergius, who was already mentioned in the story of the Nizhny Novgorod events; Sergius blessed Dimitri on the war, promising victory, although combined with strong bloodshed, and set off with him two monks, Peresvet and Oslyabya, of whom the former was formerly a boyar in Bryansk, and both differed in the world with their courage. Leaving in Moscow with the wife and children of the governor Fyodor Andreyevich, Dimitri went to Kolomna, where a huge army, which had never been seen in Russia before, was a 150000 man! ”(History of Russia from ancient times. T.3, ch.7). Note that the largest researcher was not a “churchman”, but rather belonged to the Westernizers.

What does the author of a two-page note oppose to this view?

1. “Chronicles about him [i.e. Peresvet] is generally silent, ”the author argues.

Not true. In the Nikon's chronicle code, we read: “And having asked for him the great Prince Peresvet and Oslebya, their courage for the sake of the regiment is able to ryadit, the verb of the face:“ Father, give me two warriors from his regiment of Chernetskaya, two brothers: Peresvet and Oslebya ”. These are the essence of all the warriors of greatness and the bogatyrs of the stronghold and sense of power to the warlike cause and side by side. St. Sergius, on the other hand, led them to get ready for a military matter soon; they are from all soul the obedience of creation to St. Sergius, in no case did he disregard his command. Dade them weapon in perishable incorruptible place, the cross of Christ is sewn on schemahs, and this, in place of sholomov, put their heads on them and beat Christ according to Christ to His enemies ”(Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles, v. XI, S.-Pb., 1897, p. 53). The Nikon Chronicle is one of the most important sources on the history of Russia. “The main value of Nikon’s chronicle lies in the wealth of information on Russian history: its compilers, striving for the greatest possible completeness, combined extracts from several chronicles. There are unique reports in L. N. and only in it there is news ”(Doctor of Philology, Professor O. V. Tvorogov. - Dictionary of scribes and bookishness of ancient Russia, L., 1998, Part 1).

2. “In the very early versions of Zadonshchina, Peresvet is not called a black-headed man at all.”

Again the distortion. Zadonshchina has no early and late editions, but there are lists that ascend independently through two passages to the autographic text of the 80-s of the XIV century that did not reach us. There are only six lists: Undolsky - U (XVII century), Zhdanovsky - F (XXXUMXII century., Excerpt); Historical first - I-5 (end of the XVI century, without a beginning) ,. Historical second - I-1 (beginning of the XVI century., Excerpt); Cyril-Belozersky - KB (2-ies); Synodal - From (XVII century). Again, we turn to the estimates of specialists. As he wrote the doctor of philological sciences, who devoted many years to the study of this work, LA Dmitriev: “Each individual list of“ Zadonshchina ”has such a number of distortions and defects that publishing a work on any one of the lists will not give a sufficiently complete and clear idea of ​​the text of the work. Therefore, it is already customary to give a reconstruction of the text of “Zadonshchina” on the basis of a comparative analysis of all the lists of the monument ”(Library of Literature of Ancient Russia. St. Petersburg, Science, 1470, t. 1999). The basis of existing scientific publications "Zadonschiny" put a list Undolskogo.

So, what does the text, which the researchers consider the most authoritative of all the lists of “Zadonshchina”?: “Peresvet-chernets, Bryansk boyar, to the place of court [ie battle] led. And Peresvet-Chernets said to Grand Duke Dmitriy Ivanovich: “We should be killed rather than be taken prisoner by the foul Tatars!” Peresvet jumps on his greyhill gleaming, and many lie down at the Great Don ashore. At such a time, an old person should remember his youth, and daring people should test their courage. And Oslyabya Chernets says to his brother, the elder Peresvet: “Brother Peresvet, I see grave wounds on your body, brother already, to fly your head to grass, and to my son Yakov to lie on green grass grass on Kulikovo field, on the river Nepryadve, for the Christian faith, and for the land of Russia, and for the offense of the Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich "” (Literary Monuments of Ancient Russia. XIV - the middle of the XV century. Trans. L.A. Dmitriev. M., 1981. S. 96 - 111).

The author of the article got so carried away that Alexander Peresvet declared a pagan (in another paragraph a half-language) citing the words of one of the lists: “You'd better catch yourself on your swords rather than feed us with a nasty mouth.” At the same time, the author is silent that “Zadonshchina” is a poetic imitation of the “Word about the regiment of Igor”. The above words are not spoken by Alexander Peresvet, but by the scribe who made up the Cyril-Belozersky list, who for the first time gave the name Zadonshchina. What words stood in the autographic text that has not reached us, we do not know. In different lists in different ways:

- And-1: A ray would be a jagged maw, and not full of expresses from unclean ones.

- U: Lutches would be sweaty for us, than to be full of being from unclean ones.

Lev Rudolfovich did not pay attention to the fact that the words quoted by him, in which he saw readiness for "suicide", are on the list compiled by the monk Yefrosyn, who puts a positive meaning in them.

3. The main monument of the Kulikovo cycle is the Legend of the Mamai Massacre. "The great prince said:" Give me, father, two soldiers from your brotherhood - Peresvet Alexander and his brother Andrei Oslyab, so you yourself will help us. " The elder monk ordered those both to quickly get ready to go with the Grand Duke, for they were warriors well known in battles, they met not one attack. They immediately obeyed the venerable elder and did not refuse his command. And he gave them, instead of arms of the perishable, imperishable — the cross of Christ, sewn on schemahs, and commanded them to put it on themselves instead of helmets of gilded. ”

There is an extensive scientific bibliography dedicated to this monument. The author of the note does not consider it, but only with a few emotional phrases tries to destroy the significance of the monument: “At the same time,“ The Tale of the Mamai Massacre ”appeared, redrawing almost the entire history of the Kulikovo Battle“ on the topic of the day ”.

From this categorical statement we turn to the words of a scientist who devoted half a century to the study of the monuments of the Kulikovo cycle - Doctor L. D. Dmitriev (1921-1993): “We are unable to directly build the“ Legend ”to a lengthy chronicle story or a lengthy chronicle story to “Legend”, we must admit that both works used some common source or several common sources, which were most fully reflected in “The Tale”. And we have reason to assert that in most of the details and details of the “Tale” of a historical nature, which do not have correspondences in a lengthy chronicle story, we have not late speculation, but a reflection of facts not recorded by other sources "(History of the monuments of the Kulikovo cycle. -" Tales and stories about the Kulikov battle, M., Science, 1982, p. 346-47 ”).

4. “He is silent about him and about his brother Oslabya ​​and the life of Sergius of Radonezh.”

The author does not know the elementary research principle: the absence of any fact in a given document is not an argument against the authenticity of this fact, but only a reason for research and explanation. The life of St. Sergius was written by Epiphanius the Wise in 1418, and in the 40 years of the same century was revised by Pachomius Lagofet. The text consists of several dozen pages.

He did not contain even a hundredth part of what the great saint accomplished. I will give only three examples. In the Life compiled by Epiphanius the Wise, nothing is said about the peacemaking affairs of St. Sergius, which influenced the process of the unification of the Russian principalities under the authority of the Moscow Grand Duke Dimitri Ioannovich. So in 1365, he visited Nizhny Novgorod and inclined Prince Boris Konstantinovich to obey Grand Duke Dimitrii Ivanovich, demanding the return of Nizhny Novgorod to him. St. Sergius reconciled with the Grand Duke of Moscow and Ryazan Prince Oleg. The latter has repeatedly violated the treaties, entering into relations with the enemies of the Russian land. Dimitri Ivanovich, following the commandments of Christ, several times offered Oleg peace, but he rejected all the proposals of the Grand Duke. Then he turned to St. Sergius with a request to incline Oleg to reconciliation. In 1385, the humble hegumen went on foot to Ryazan and talked a long time with Oleg. The prince of Ryazan was pricked in his soul: he was ashamed of his holy husband and made peace with the grand prince. It is not said that St. Sergius was a successor of the children of Grand Duke Dimitry Ivanovich. Even the spiritual prince is bound by the monk's signature. The order of possession of the grand duke's throne was forever established in it: the eldest son was to inherit the power of the grand prince.

5. Lev Rudolfovich writes: "In the synodics - the commemoration list - the Trinity Monastery is the name of Alexander Peresvet (as, incidentally, his brother - Rodion Oslyabi)."

Has the author never heard that the saints do not appear in synodics, but in paterikas? From the 14th century, the Paterik of the Trinity-Sergius monastery began to form, which includes more than seventy-five saints of God. The genealogical tree of the Radonezh saints includes the following names: Rev. Sergius, hegumen of Radonezh ... Rev. Mitrofan-hegumen, elder (+ up to 1392; memory 4 / 17 of June); Rev. Vasiliy Sukhiy (+ up to 1392; January memory 1 / 14) .. Rev. warrior schema-monks Alexander Peresvet (+ September 8 1380; September memory 7 / 20); Rev. warrior Schemamonk Andrei Oslyabya (14 in; memory of September 7 / 20), etc.

Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya were glorified early. We meet their names already in the manuscript of the end of the XVI - beginning of the XVII century: The book, a verb description of the Russian saints (M. 1887; repr. M. 1995).

6. "Both heroes are buried in the Staro-Simonovsky Monastery on the territory of Moscow - the thing is also absolutely incredible if they were the monks of another monastery."

The author either does not know, or is silent, that Simonov Monastery was the brainchild of St. Sergius. It was founded with the blessing of the Venerable. Sergius his nephew and disciple of St.. Theodore, the future first archbishop of Rostov. St. Sergius, during his visit to Moscow, stayed at this monastery and took part in the work of the brethren. It is necessary to take into account the fact that the abbot of the Simonov monastery, St. Theodore was the confessor of the Grand Duke Dimitri Donskoy. As for the burial, there is no such law that would require the burial of the deceased monk in the same monastery where he labored. The Monk Varsonofy (Plikhankov) died not only the inhabitant, but also the hegumen of the Old Golutvinsky monastery, but he was buried in the Optina Desert. Nun Dosifeya (Tarakanova) 25 spent years working in the Moscow St. John Monastery, and buried her in the Moscow Novo-Spassky Monastery.

7. “Peresvet's family did not stop - in the XVI century, his distant descendant appeared in Russia, the Lithuanian descendant Ivan Peresvetov”.

The author is referring to a publicist of the 16th century who, before appearing in Moscow (around 1538 - 39), served the Polish king Sigismund, and during the war of the Czech king Ferdinand I and the seven-governor governor Jan Zapolya, moved to the side of the latter when he was actively supported Turkish sultan Suleiman I. This Ivan Semenovich Peresvetov and presented himself as a descendant of Alexander Peresvet, to rise in Muscovy. However, there is no documentary evidence of this.

8. At the end, I will cite a sample of the author’s research “culture”: “But soon Russia finally put the Horde in place on the Ugra, and the clergy - right there,“ and they didn’t wear their husband’s boots ”- rushed in to attach themselves to the victory over the Horde.

We live in post-atheistic time. The decades of militant atheism left painful wounds in the souls of tens of millions of people. Now rarely meet supporters of odious atheism. However, the old beliefs were tenacious. They have been transformed into various types of levier. An example is the modern sham paganism to which the author of the article being reviewed belongs.

Reading this text, you are strengthened in the belief that incompetence is in fashion in our time. The logic and arguments in the eyes of many have long lost their significance. Only one sensational and scandalous enough that the article was very popular.
Originator:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/answers/6989.htm
123 comments
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  1. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 2 November 2013 07: 36
    +5
    from the Don.
    Where are these Lyovs, Andrei-Hondurans, brought up, where they studied, lived? Damn, count them in the throat!
    1. JIaIIoTb
      JIaIIoTb 2 November 2013 07: 49
      +8
      Quote: borisjdin1957
      from the Don.
      Where are these Lyovs, Andrei-Hondurans, brought up, where they studied, lived? Damn, count them in the throat!


      In the same place as the bulk of all liberoid figures, beyond the hill. Or those who came from abroad.
      And at the expense of the stake ..... you can and not in the throat.
      1. borisjdin1957
        borisjdin1957 2 November 2013 08: 56
        0
        from the Don.
        And Makar? Probably also in the Komsomol?
  2. major071
    major071 2 November 2013 07: 52
    14
    Recently divorced pseudo-historians are immeasurably. And everyone is trying to rewrite the history of Russia. Soon we will come to the point that there was no Russian state in history, and the enlightened west brought culture to us. You all go in ... (long hike). The history of Russia is holy, and it’s not for you with your hands dirty from Western money, to rewrite it for the sake of your masters.
    1. does it
      does it 2 November 2013 15: 11
      +7
      Quote: major071
      Recently divorced pseudo-historians are immeasurably. And everyone is trying to rewrite the history of Russia

      If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all ...
  3. makarov
    makarov 2 November 2013 07: 57
    11
    author of the material: Hieromonk Job (in the world Shamil Abilkhairovich Gumerov, in the baptism of Athanasius; by origin - Tatar. born January 25, 1942) - hieromonk of the Russian Orthodox Church, inhabitant of the Sretensky stauropegic monastery in Moscow, theologian, spiritual writer. PhD in Philosophy, PhD in Theology.

    Opposite side: Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov (creative pseudonym - Ozar Voron) - Russian writer, publicist. He is the author of a number of books about Ancient Russia. He was born on May 29 1972 in Izhevsk. He graduated from the Faculty of History and Graduate School of Udmurt State University. He lives in Novokuybyshevsk (Samara region).
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 2 November 2013 08: 04
      +6
      Quote: makarov
      . Graduated from the Faculty of History and Graduate School of Udmurt State University

      No diplomas were attached to the diploma.
      1. svp67
        svp67 2 November 2013 08: 50
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        No diplomas were attached to the diploma.

        Yes, and conscience too ...
    2. avt
      avt 2 November 2013 10: 48
      0
      Quote: makarov
      Hieromonk Job (in the world Shamil Abilkhairovich Gumerov, in the baptism of Athanasius; by origin - Tatar. Clan. January 25, 1942)

      He is right .
      Quote: makarov
      Lev Rudolfovich

      nicknamed
      Quote: makarov
      Ozar Raven)

      having
      Quote: makarov
      Faculty of History and Graduate School of Udmurt State University.

      Either he studied poorly, or he hides the facts so despicably and climbs into the chronicles, into the rulers of thoughts. Job, the hieromanach, should have subdued his emotions a little and think about this. Monasticism, in the form in which we present it today, began to form much later under Ivan III, when the monasteries were actually divided into male and female monasteries, and the obligatory healing monks were introduced. That is, the reformation of the church was carried out, which was later done by Alexey "Quietest" and Petya No. 1 and Katya No. 2. So both Peresvet and Oslyabya in status and in fact are quite comparable to the knights of the monastic order, By the way, the concept of such a knight , there is not a single language other than Slavic - Russian, Ukrainian, Polish. There are more and more bollards - carriers of knives, chevaliers, cabaliers, horse and tiers - horsemen and only here - knights, knights - people with a face or a mask - took in the form of an image faces.
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 2 November 2013 13: 03
        +4
        Someone supports Prozorov, someone Job, I personally do not support anyone. And I think the one and the other are wrong, because although they distort everyone, they rely on the so-called classical sources.
        History is dark and often false. And the church put a lot of effort together with the authorities to create a version of history that is beneficial for itself. Let's turn to the Russian language. Defenders of the religious worldview and classical history, answer one question: why church images are called "icons", why something original, the fundamental is called "primordial", and why Russians in ancient times were called "horsemen", the horse at that time was called "komon" and why the "window" is called "window" (this is as) a hint. This is a kind of test about
        Quote: Lyokha79
        such "thinkers", amoebas with inflated self-importance
      2. creak
        creak 2 November 2013 14: 57
        0
        Avt.

        By the way, the concept of a knight has always existed, for example, in English -knight - it means the KNIGHT (have you really heard about King Arthur and the knights of the round table? This concept is still preserved in England as an honorary title. And CONDOGIER is nothing other like a mercenary selling his sword to the one who pays the most ...
        1. avt
          avt 3 November 2013 11: 10
          +3
          Quote: ranger
          By the way, the concept of a knight has always existed, for example, in English -knight - it means the KNIGHT

          laughing You, dear man, try to read what I wrote, but at the same time give a reference where and when the word knight is mentioned in Western languages, you just don’t have to draw the broom {swordsman in Russian}.
          Quote: ranger
          (Really did not hear about King Arthur and the Knights of the round table?

          And even more so about the table with chairs by King Arthur, about which the Angles themselves do not really know where and when this club was under his leadership. Our epics about Ilya Muromets will be time and place as well as think up the hero as well especially not necessary. Well, with regards to
          Quote: ranger
          And the KONDOTIER is nothing more than a mercenary selling his sword to the one who pays the most ...

          So read those how and under what conditions the "noble" gentlemen of the bollards were hired to work, you will quite know that they sold your sword not for the glance of a beautiful lady, at the same time take an interest in how they kept their oaths of allegiance. In general, the history of professional military men of the Middle Ages should be taken seriously from novels Walter Scott, well, like "Ivanhoe" is not worth it, as well as his own story about Pikul, Akunin and Yan.
          1. creak
            creak 3 November 2013 19: 24
            +2
            Avt

            Link in English - Advanced Dictionary of Current English (Oxford University Press) - defines chivalry as a feudal estate, in German -Ritter. And I considered the history of the Middle Ages not only from works of art, I also got to know more serious sources. Only where I brought the bollard (squire) I still didn’t understand ... By the way, the swordsman is none other than a member of the German Catholic an order that later merged with the Teutonic Order. So the swordsman and squire are not the same thing ...
          2. Vasyan1971
            Vasyan1971 4 November 2013 02: 40
            0
            I apologize. And the German Ritter, later the reiter what to do?
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 4 November 2013 03: 42
              +1
              Quote: Vasyan1971
              I apologize. And the German Ritter, later the reiter what to do?

              It is precisely that "later", it is obvious that the ritter is from the word knight. Except for the Slavs and Germans, no one used these words, among the Spaniards - caballeros, among the French - Chevalier. No knights are mentioned in Europe, but only mentioned among the Slavs and the Germans, and among the Germans this is clearly the legacy of their Slavic predecessors.
        2. svp67
          svp67 3 November 2013 11: 15
          +2
          Quote: ranger
          By the way, the concept of a knight has always existed, for example, in English -knight - it means the KNIGHT

          So, yes, not quite like that
          Bollards
          or shalki (Knecht, in Latin medieval letters: servus, ancilla, mancipium, manahoupit, schalk, vassus, gasindus, etc.) - not free in medieval Germany. K. were completely subject to the lord; he was their legal representative and could use them for personal services (pueri, vassi ad ministerium, ministeriales), for craft work or for cultivating fields. K.'s property initially could not have, nor did they have the right to marry; however, even at the Carolingian, their marriages began to be recognized as legal, although they could not be entered into with people free without severe restrictions for one or the other. Their property was better when they were subject to fisk (servi fiscalini) or church (servi ecclesiae); in the same way, K., directly subordinate to the king (pueri regis), were in a comparatively advantageous position and sometimes achieved high honors. The bollards were made unfree due to birth from not free, marriage to slaves, voluntary bondage, captivity, for debts, etc. Freedom was obtained by them by means of freeing up, initially from the Franks per denarium to the army, then to the king and the national assembly. Later an absolution in the church or through a simple document arose. And in this case, however, K.'s dependence on the former master did not stop completely. For non-free and serfs in Germany in general, see Slavery and Serfs. With the word Knecht, initially there was unambiguously Anglo-Saxon cnyht, now the English Knight, gaining the meaning of the first German Knappe - squire, then a knight, a member of the lower nobility, a gentry.

          http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/brokgauz_efron/53002/%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%85%D1%

          82% D1% 8B
          1. avt
            avt 3 November 2013 11: 47
            0
            Quote: svp67
            So, yes, not quite like that

            good What is actually about this, and by the way, the ban on marriages to one degree or another existed until the 19th century, well, in the form of restrictions, such as the requirement of marriage with the permission of the command. Well, where and where did everything go - knights to Europe, or bollards to Russia, this is an open question, we can say that every sandpiper praises its swamp. But here, it seems, in German the war horse is a cross, even shops in Germany for horse riding horse Riding - Ross und Reuters, it seems like a horse and a rider, but they call economic horses differently, if memory serves us right, yes, and in general, if our knights are knights more and more around their faces, then in the west noble more and more around mares are Chevalier , caballeros, cavalrymen are cavalrymen, well, only Italians around a horse are condottiers. laughing So Oslyabya and Peresvet are quite professional soldiers — knights and monks, no contradictions, everything is in the spirit of the times.
            1. svp67
              svp67 3 November 2013 12: 00
              +2
              Quote: avt
              Well, where and where did that go - the knights in Europe, or the bollards in Russia

              Yes, the "bollards" went to Russia, for the most part - not successfully ...
              Quote: avt
              And in general, if our knights-knights are more and more around the face, then in the west the noble more and more are around mares - Chevalier, Caballeros, cavaliers - cavalrymen, well, only Italians around the horse are condottiers.

              Well, if so, then in general we used the word "knight" more in everyday life (
              I, m. outdated. and a trad poet.
              The brave warrior bogatyr.
              ) or "hero" (
              Bogatyrs (from other Turk. Bagatur - a brave warrior)
              heroes of Russian epics, defenders of the Russian land, performing military feats, distinguished by their special strength, daring, intelligence, self-control. In Old Russian, the word "B." corresponded to "brave", "temples", "good man." The word "B." is found in annals from the 13 century. Most of B.'s images are grouped in epics about Kiev and Prince Vladimir Svyatoslavich.
              ) ...
              For ordinary soldiers, consider mobilized, the concept of warriors (
              The old Russian word “warriors” means a human warrior. The very word “howls” is formed from two sounds IN AND, the meaning-concept of which is POWER HE
              )
              Well, if you understand the Russian analogue of the word "knight", then of course you have to start from the "vigilante" - a warrior of the princely squad, who in turn were divided into "gridnev" - junior guards, an analogue of the western squire and "boyars" - senior guards, here they are the Russian analogue of the Western knights, and this word "boyaren" is clearly consonant with the word "battle" ...
              And regarding the origin of the word "knight" there is such an opinion
              In Aryan (Scythian, if you like) "RYS" means to ride on horseback, "SAR" - a noble person (the word king cf. English Sir, Lat. Ce-sar - from the word sar - originally meant not only the autocrat, but also just a noble person). That is, a knight is a noble rider. The word knight is also an ancient Aryan word from "VIDYATI" - to win, that is, knight is a winner. Wed: Skt. Vijaya, lat. Vitus, Viktor, balt. Vitas, Vitautas, scan. Viking. Thus, the word ritter in German comes from the Aryan (aka Scythian)
            2. svp67
              svp67 3 November 2013 12: 48
              +1
              Quote: avt
              And in general, if our knights-knights are more and more around the face, then in the west the noble more and more are around mares - Chevalier, Caballeros, cavaliers - cavalrymen, well, only Italians around the horse are condottiers.

              And here everything is very easy to explain - in "civilized" Western countries it was very expensive to have a horse, like a car now, especially a fighting one, ordinary people certainly could not have it, and not all rich people, by the way. The climate, geographic and economic conditions ... all did not contribute to the development of cavalry, therefore, "horsemen" were valued, since the time of the Roman Empire, or it was "wild" countries, where a horse is a "vital necessity" ...
    3. pawel57
      pawel57 3 November 2013 04: 53
      0
      probably a Jew
    4. 4952915
      4952915 3 November 2013 15: 21
      0
      This is, probably, he writes in a fantasy "Wedun", "Skull of the Bishop" .. I got carried away.
  4. soldat1945
    soldat1945 2 November 2013 07: 59
    10
    Now so much nonsense is being written about all possible tartaria by the Chinese walls with loopholes to the east and not to the west, it has become not fashionable to work with documents to prove your point of view with painstaking work in the archives, you can just use some kind of rubbish to shout your tongue about everything the rest are not patriots to throw superficial blizzards to people who are poorly representing history as a science and thereby earn popularity. I myself am far from enthusiastic about the Russian Orthodox Church, but her merits to Russia are enormous, and to belittle them is to spit on the exploits of my ancestors, an article is a big plus!
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 4 November 2013 03: 46
      -1
      Quote: soldat1945
      I myself am far from enthusiastic about the Russian Orthodox Church, but she has great services to Russia

      Here in more detail, it is desirable to indicate the list of "merits".
    2. Gorinich
      Gorinich 5 November 2013 13: 24
      0
      Gee-gee. Have you ever wondered why, is Russia the only country in which religious orders are not mentioned? But at that time they ruled all over Europe. (Livonians, Templars, etc.) And the word Horde is so much like an order ... Does an analyst sometimes need to be included or not? And what is the largest growth of church lands in what time? Yeah, we all owe it to our church ...
  5. Simon
    Simon 2 November 2013 08: 29
    +3
    Someone paid him well to screw up our story. angry
    1. Corsair
      Corsair 2 November 2013 11: 50
      +6
      Quote: Simon
      Someone paid him well to screw up our story.

      An order was received, he fulfilled it. And he doesn't care that such "research" drives a wedge into the monolith that has bind the Russian state for centuries.
      Attempts to inculcate an "alternative history", but in fact the ongoing campaign to de-discriminate Orthodoxy is aimed at young people.
      There is an ideological war, and this example is one of its fronts ...
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 2 November 2013 12: 53
        +7
        Quote: Corsair
        There is an ideological war, and this example is one of its fronts ...

        And here is the first "minus", but they beat us - we are getting stronger ...
      2. tomket
        tomket 2 November 2013 13: 18
        +6
        Actually, if we hear from Brzezinski that Orthodoxy is the main enemy for the West, and then we read, for example, from the lips of respected Astgard about different Nav, Real, I think the conclusions are obvious, and many would have to think about whose mill you are pouring water on ????
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 2 November 2013 15: 32
          -2
          Quote: tomket
          , if we hear from Brzezinski that Orthodoxy is the main enemy for the West, and then we read, for example, from the lips of the esteemed Astgard about different Nav, Reve, I think the conclusions are obvious, and many would have to think about whose mill you are pouring water on?

          There is another option: those who stand behind Brzezinski are well aware of how the patriotic part of the Russian population treat him. fight, why warn the enemy about it.
          1. tomket
            tomket 2 November 2013 15: 42
            +5
            somehow it’s hard to believe that the Pole would begin to help Orthodoxy. By the way, another marker on the topic of who is who, this is the attitude of the church towards the Sodomites, and, accordingly, the attitude of the West in this matter.
            1. baltika-18
              baltika-18 2 November 2013 16: 27
              0
              Quote: tomket
              somehow it’s hard to believe that the Pole would help Orthodoxy

              But he does not help Orthodoxy. The main task is to divide the country according to any criteria: social, economic, political, religious. The more reasons, the better for them and the worse for us. You can’t put religion at the head of ideology, you need to change and urgently the economic system, to eliminate social injustice, otherwise collapse. The stronger the religiosity of certain groups of the population, the more they are irreconcilable.
          2. Gregazov
            Gregazov 2 November 2013 16: 00
            +3
            baltika-18 (3)
            There is another option: those who stand behind Brzezinski are well aware of how the patriotic part of the Russian population treat him. fight, why warn the enemy about it.

            Write about it to Brzezinski, otherwise he does not know. Maybe after your letter he will cease to struggle with Orthodoxy, having ceded this place to you.
          3. T100
            T100 2 November 2013 19: 44
            +4
            Brzezinski pathological Russophobe and cave anti-Orthodox, on the crest of success and glory, AT THE MOMENT OF THE CRASH OF THE USSR - and will it help the Russian Orthodox Church?
            It needs to be strongly BDSM! And by the way - this is not "behind him". It is he who is behind many and many ...
        2. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 2 November 2013 17: 30
          +4
          Quote: tomket
          Actually, if we hear from Brzezinski that Orthodoxy is the main enemy for the West, and then we read, for example, from the lips of respected Astgard about different Nav, Real, I think the conclusions are obvious, and many would have to think about whose mill you are pouring water on ????

          Alexander, do not pour water into the mill, you must distinguish lies from the truth and stand for the truth.
          Gundyaev only dishonors and descends Orthodoxy, calling our pagan great-great-great-grandfathers unwritten savages.
          They were no worse and no worse than the Greeks and Euros, and they were our ancestors.
          Orthodoxy is a pagan word, the Slavs divided the universe into Nav - the world of the dead, reality - the world of the living, and right - the world of the gods.
          Orthodoxy is the proclamation of glory to the world of the gods.
          1. Slav
            Slav 17 November 2013 12: 37
            +1
            Quote: Corsair5912
            Alexander, do not pour water into the mill, you must distinguish lies from the truth and stand for the truth.
            Gundyaev only dishonors and descends Orthodoxy, calling our pagan great-great-great-grandfathers unwritten savages.

            But you yourself write that Vladimir destroyed 9 million out of 12 at baptism!
            How can a strong nation with a strong faith, powerful traditions be practically destroyed !? Vladimir’s team killed 2000 million people in 9 soldiers !! ??
            This is logical and almost impossible! Either the people were like a herd of obedient sheep, or your liberal sources lie.
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  6. Lyokha79
    Lyokha79 2 November 2013 08: 55
    +2
    From this passenger the historian is like a bullet. Unfortunately, there are a lot of such "thinkers", amoebas with inflated self-conceit, nowadays. There is no serious analysis, no study of historical documents at all, and why. You can just sprinkle pseudo-historical nonsense and let it go to the people, passing it off as a fresh scientific study. It is clear that such nonsense will not stand up to criticism, and the author does not need this. For the creators of such intellectual miscarriages, the scandalousness with which their "creations" go out to the masses is much more important, and on this one can earn cheap popularity, as a result, understand the dough. But the worst thing is that after reading something like that someone will say, well, nonsense, and the other, and so it turns out as it was. And most painful of all, such opuses hit the brains of young people, introducing complete discord into the minds that have not yet matured.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 2 November 2013 09: 02
      +4
      Quote: Lyokha79
      And most of all, such opuses hit the brains of young people, introducing, into the already not yet strong minds, a complete tear.

      Their goals are to bring discord into society in various fields. And youth is easiest to get involved. good +
    2. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 2 November 2013 20: 02
      0
      Quote: Lyokha79
      You can just pour pseudo-historical nonsense and put it into the people, posing as fresh scientific research. It is clear that such nonsense will not stand up to criticism, and the author does not need this

      Ha! You might think that once, somewhere it was different.
      How do they write modern history, I hope you know?
      Where was the most important battle of WWII? near Stalingrad? near Kursk? in Berlin?
      And not a fig like that under El Alamein.
      What !!!
      200 thousand British, 1100 thousand aircraft and 1500 tanks, against 80 thousand Germans 580 aircraft and 500 tanks.
      Now Russian "professional historians" have officially recognized this.
  7. The comment was deleted.
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      1. tomket
        tomket 2 November 2013 13: 13
        +4
        so show the obvious things! let's like, feel free)))
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 05
          -1
          Quote: tomket
          so show the obvious things! let's like, feel free)))

          The word religion comes from the Latin word meaning connection.
          They came up with a religion to unite different territories into one community (empire) at a time when there were still no developed communications - railways and a deck fleet. In fact, the builders of ancient empires during the conquest of some remote (by that standards) territory could not hold it by force, because of the great distances, but they could plant their religion, which created a false sense of unity with the mother country and also helped to collect tax - church tithe .
    2. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 13: 12
      -1
      Give at least one case of the struggle of the Orthodox Church with progress, tell the whole truth as it is, do not be shy, please! only please, without the unfortunate Copernicus, since that Catholic, they justly burned him for two.
      1. SvetoRus
        SvetoRus 2 November 2013 14: 01
        +6
        Give at least one case of the struggle of the Orthodox Church with progress
        In 1740, on the initiative of M. Lomonosov, the book of Fontenel, "A Conversation on the Set of Worlds," was published. The Holy Synod recognized the book as “contrary to faith and morality,” the book was seized and destroyed. The priests then asked: If the planet Mars had inhabitants, then who would baptize them? In 1873, the work of the German philosopher and naturalist Ernest Haeckel’s “Natural History of the Universe” in which the author developed a materialistic doctrine of the universe and, according to spiritual censors, mocked the biblical tales of the origin of the world and man. In 1866, "for expounding the most extreme materialistic views" was seized on the book of the Russian physiologist and thinker I. M. Sechenov's “Reflexes of the brain”, partly contrary to religious ideas about a person and his soul. St. Petersburg Metropolitan Isidor asked the Synod to send Sechenov “for humility and correction” to the Solovetsky Monastery “for prejudicial, harmful and harmful teaching.” Spiritual censorship up to the end of XIX century geological science. According to Metropolitan Filaret (canonized in 1994), scientific geology refutes the biblical cosmogony and therefore “cannot be tolerated”. I hope you are quite respected tomket, if not, then you can independently search for information.
        1. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 14: 21
          0
          so what, found life on Mars? or found some other world? By the way, for example, years after 30 they will say that the church has hindered scientific progress and a breakthrough in the field of cloning, the use of stem cells, abortions, etc. in matters of morality, everything is so unambiguous at first glance.
        2. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 15: 21
          0
          yesterday, by the way, I watched how the spider’s genes were implanted in the goat and it’s now milked by a web along with milk, scientific and technological progress, but for some reason it almost got sick.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 07
            -2
            Quote: tomket
            Chera, by the way, watched how the spider’s genes were implanted in the goat, and now it is being milked with cobwebs along with milk, scientific and technological progress, but for some reason it almost got sick.

            You should drink less.
      2. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 20: 27
        0
        Quote: tomket
        Give at least one case of the struggle of the Orthodox Church with progress, tell the whole truth as it is, do not be shy, please! only please, without the unfortunate Copernicus, since that Catholic, they justly burned him for two.

        Kolya Copernicus was not burned, he did not publish his astronomical discoveries. He died in 1543 year in 70 years from a stroke.
        They burned Gordano Bruno in 1600 at the age of 52 for promoting the heliocentric system of Copernicus.
        If you want to enjoy the list of crimes of popovshchina look at the site
        http://s409382223.initial-website.com/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF

        %D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%85%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD/


        DURING THE INQUISITION IN EUROPE CHRISTIAN
        KILLED 13 MILLION MAN, OF THEM 5 MILLION. WOMEN !.

        CHRISTIANS KILLED DURING THE BAPTISM OF RUSSIA
        9 MILLION MAN.

        CHRISTIANS KILLED IN CROSS VISITS
        30 MILLION MAN.
        1. Misantrop
          Misantrop 2 November 2013 20: 32
          +4
          Quote: Corsair5912
          They burned Gordano Bruno in 1600 at the age of 52 for promoting the heliocentric system of Copernicus.
          Oddly enough, at that time they did not burn for the structure of the solar system, it was already very widespread by that time. Authors-accusers modestly remained silent that Bruno, among other things, was the head of the local sect of the Satanists, for which he burned down ... request
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 2 November 2013 20: 49
            +3
            Quote: Misantrop
            Oddly enough, at that time they did not burn for the structure of the solar system, it was already very widespread by that time. Authors-accusers modestly remained silent that Bruno, among other things, was the head of the local sect of the Satanists, for which he burned down ...

            The heliocentric system was already expressed at the time of Aristotle, this did not stop the priests from burning books of Copernicus, and in 1616 to ban its system.
            Giordano Bruno was never a Satanist, the priests composed this much later.
            On 9 of June 1889 of the year in Rome, a monument was solemnly unveiled on the very same Square of Flowers, on which the Inquisition about 300 years ago committed his execution. The statue depicts Bruno at full height. At the bottom of the pedestal is the inscription: "Giordano Bruno - from the century that he foresaw, in the place where the fire was lit."
            On the 400 anniversary of the death of Bruno, Cardinal Angelo Sodano called the execution of Bruno “a sad episode”

            The atrocities of the clergy went beyond the bounds of permissiveness, the priests surpassed what they attributed to the devil. Only fagots who hated women could think of such tortures.
            1. Misantrop
              Misantrop 2 November 2013 21: 54
              +3
              Quote: Corsair5912
              Giordano Bruno was never a Satanist, the priests composed this much later.
              I was not an eyewitness (understandably), so I won’t argue. But there was such information. Incidentally, the engraving shows an inaccuracy indicating that the artist himself did not see this. After the arrest, the first thing they did was remove their hair, as it was believed that the witch's strength was in her hair. I had to deal with this in detail in due time, as I took part in the manufacture of the supposedly torture equipment for a traveling exhibition. It is interesting, but most of the torture devices depicted on those engravings are generally not functional in principle (they will fall apart at once, they will not survive). Dreamers without technical education in those centuries, among the accusers, was also enough ...
              1. tomket
                tomket 2 November 2013 23: 22
                +1
                There are Bruno’s works with which anyone can get acquainted, a person who claims that everyone came up with priests, a priori signs with his ignorance and slander on others.
            2. tomket
              tomket 2 November 2013 23: 20
              +2
              By the way, they often burned just sodomites. and the women burned ... well, you never know how good peasants and townspeople settled scores with each other, the Salem witch process is indicative in this matter, by the way in 37, the inhabitants of our country similarly settled scores with each other, in the Middle Ages with the hands of the Inquisition in 37 with their hands NKVD, or do you hang up all the denunciations of Stalin ????
        2. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 23: 16
          +3
          Bruno often boasted that, for example, the statues could be revived, well, he was talking about inhabited worlds, and that he visited them, etc., played shorter on the same field against the church, naturally burned out, in the literal and figurative sense.
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 3 November 2013 08: 50
            -1
            Quote: tomket
            Bruno often boasted that, for example, the statues could be revived, well, he was talking about inhabited worlds, and that he visited them, etc., played shorter on the same field against the church, naturally burned out, in the literal and figurative sense.

            Exactly, bummers didn’t spare even their employees, they burned them for nothing, for nothing.
            I admit honestly, I wouldn’t shoot Bruno, even if the guy wrote the fantasy. Who does this harm?
            But Tomaz Campanella would certainly have been burned along with his filthy book "City of the Sun". I would not want to live in such a city, in nature a mixture of barracks, monastery and prison.
  8. George
    George 2 November 2013 10: 29
    +4
    Hello all.
    The author of the article tries to build the accusation that the Church was completely exempted from all taxes. However, this is not at all connected with the "servility" of the metropolitans before the khans, but was based on the Great Yasa of Genghis Khan.

    How everything is going well. You can live. The priests immediately immediately accepted the whole code of laws of Iasi, but what, doesn’t this concern them? So what.
    Who then admonished the Russian people that all this is God's punishment? In fact, they broke and nullified all the resistance of the people for 300 years.
    1. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 13: 07
      +1
      you can puff up as much as you like about the defeat of the USSR in the Cold War. As many as you like to call America to throw caps and beat yourself in the chest while watching BROTH1-2 repeating that it is true in strength. Only the enemy will not become weaker from this. You need great courage to admit defeat, understand the reason (fragmentation of Russia), eliminate the main causes of defeat and then come out against the enemy. sense to harass people with calls for struggle when the Ryazanians themselves, and the Kievans themselves? Do you think that defeat is not a heavenly punishment, because the great Kievan Rus was destroyed by strife and strife ????? Minus you.
      1. George
        George 2 November 2013 13: 19
        +1
        Quote: tomket
        you can puff up as much as you like about the defeat of the USSR in the Cold War. As many as you like to call America to throw caps and beat yourself in the chest while watching BROTH1-2 repeating that it is true in strength. Only the enemy will not become weaker from this. You need great courage to admit defeat, understand the reason (fragmentation of Russia), eliminate the main causes of defeat and then come out against the enemy. sense to harass people with calls for struggle when the Ryazanians themselves, and the Kievans themselves? Do you think that defeat is not a heavenly punishment, because the great Kievan Rus was destroyed by strife and strife ????? Minus you.

        Yes, you do not get excited (I have no less reasons for this).
        The reason is the same as then, isn't it?
        Each prince pulls in his tower.
        And a religion called to be a spiritual mentor and a leader who moves the masses to struggle and self-sacrifice, just like then they adopted the rules of the game of bandits and thieves who rule the country.
        I do not consider defeat the defeat of the war, in our history there are many examples of this.
        It just seems to you that during the Second World War people who fell into occupation should have adopted German laws, a new order, so to speak, and quietly comprehending the reasons for the loss, making plans for the future? It’s ridiculous.
        They were defeated because they accepted their fate, and the church here did not smoke aside.
        1. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 13: 27
          +2
          were defeated because they stood apart, when they routed the princedoms separately, the first bell was actually during the battle on the cripple, when the rats of different princes joined the battle separately (well, they’ve directly counter-attacked Dubno), they did not learn the lesson as a result. instead of a united army, they preferred to sit out in their inheritance and estates, as a result they again defeated everyone. You see, the defeat of Russia, even at the time of the invasion, is a prevailing fact, as the Germans like to say, the turning point was reached long before the fall of the principalities, and the call of the church with resistance would only increase the casualties among the population. I would multiply the number of fallen under a particular ruined city.
          to the fight against fascism. Stalin initially called for war to a victorious end by all the people. There was no situation where, for example, Stalin fought to the end, but the regional committee of Georgia, for example, would like to abstain, since he rightly considered that the direction of the main attack passes Georgia and can sit out. The realities of fragmentation in Russia influenced the nature of resistance much more than the church.
          1. George
            George 2 November 2013 14: 33
            +1
            Quote: tomket
            I would multiply the number of fallen under a particular ruined city.

            For some reason, I remember the glorious Russian city of Kozelsk with its defense.
            The victims? The whole city with its inhabitants was destroyed.
            Only I believe that if they called the universal call then they would have fought back. Yes, there would be more victims (are they comparable with those that we suffered during the Horde?), But the Mongol forces were also limited.
            But the church did not call for battle.
            And the attempt of the author of the article to "smear" our then metropolitans, basing it on the laws of the enemy who invaded our land, separating the church from the people, sounds to put it mildly ... no, I can't even find a word.
            Of course, I don’t know to say what happened before:
            Our priests learned that they are not harassed and taxed.
            or
            They began to repeat about God's punishment and humble worship before the enemy.
            Although I personally like the second option, because I read about how the Mongols carried out reconnaissance and provocation in the camps of the enemy.
            1. tomket
              tomket 2 November 2013 15: 25
              +1
              you yourself have definitely emphasized that the inhabitants of Kozelsk were completely cut out. I emphasize once again, each prince is on his own mind what this allegedly unified confrontation resulted in was seen at the Battle of Kalka. before you is a fait accompli, but you don’t care, but if only yes.
              1. George
                George 2 November 2013 17: 13
                +2
                We do not understand each other. I tell you about the church, and you tell me about the princes.
                1. tomket
                  tomket 2 November 2013 20: 32
                  +1
                  Excuse me, who was at the head of the army, princes or church? princes prosral battles and you blame the church for something.
                  1. George
                    George 2 November 2013 22: 22
                    0
                    Quote: tomket
                    Excuse me, who was at the head of the army, princes or church? princes prosral battles and you blame the church for something.

                    You will also forgive me Alexander, but the church was the spiritual mentor of our entire society, from the farmer to the prince, and the princes listened to what the church was talking about. But will there be a will to fight with a military leader whose fighting spirit is undermined by words about inevitability and punishment for sins. I doubt what will happen. We deserve to say what can you do.
                    And even with the defeat of the troops, the war is not lost. In the heroic Kozelsk I mentioned above, the last attack - the sortie was carried out by the townspeople (their prince was still a baby, but this did not prevent people from defending), as a result of which the Mongols suffered heavy losses. For what Kozelsk was named "Evil City". And why only it? Why did a small city become a bone in the Mongol's throat and held a 7-week siege, while other cities (and much larger and richer in population) surrendered?
                    I do not blame the church for all the troubles, and I agree with you regarding the loss due to the fragmentation of the princes, but I consider it unacceptable to deny the harmful role of our church.
                    1. tomket
                      tomket 2 November 2013 23: 29
                      0
                      in short, the moral is that each priest had to be a political officer and in the distant 1337 year the prince was to be put up against the wall and bang out of the gunshot. Oh, but I'm afraid you would now speak about the priests of the Vashugins who prevented military professionals from doing things !!!
                      1. George
                        George 3 November 2013 00: 08
                        +1
                        Quote: tomket
                        each priest was supposed to be a political officer and the prince in the distant 1337 year was to put to the wall and bang out of the gunshot

                        I should have strengthened it, but it seems to me that you are just scumbagging now, it's a pity. I stop the discussion, everyone remained with his own.
            2. Gregazov
              Gregazov 2 November 2013 16: 31
              0
              The church itself participated in the reflection of the Horde, the number of looted monasteries, dead priests, monks and laity is difficult to count. For some reason, you separate the flock from the shepherds, calling the Church only hierarchs and clergy. I can’t understand, is this mistake out of ignorance or a special technique?
              1. George
                George 2 November 2013 20: 09
                0
                Quote: GregAzov
                . For some reason, you separate the flock from the shepherds, calling the Church only hierarchs and clergy.

                In our local church, one of the clergy (not strong in the church hierarchy) was caught selling drugs,
                and there is also an ascetic - Uncle Alexander, who leads a righteous lifestyle.
                Should I separate them from each other?
                The church, and by it here I mean precisely the shepherds, and not here either, in my opinion, betrayed the Russian people, and during the yoke fattened on people's misfortune.
      2. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 21: 12
        -1
        Quote: tomket
        It takes great courage to admit defeat, to understand the reason (fragmentation of Russia), to eliminate the main causes of defeat, and only then to oppose the enemy. sense to harass people with calls for struggle when the Ryazanians themselves, and the Kievans themselves? Do you think that defeat is not a heavenly punishment, because the great Kievan Rus was destroyed by strife and strife ????? Minus you.

        The reason for the fragmentation of Russia in baptism. After the forcible baptism of Kiev and several other cities, the people began to respond by force with force. Most of the population did not want to adopt Christianity and a civil war between Christians and pagans began.
        Russia broke up into 250 principalities and became easy prey for invaders from the west of the east and south. Byzantium was pleased, the priests worked well, the Russian threat from the north was eliminated. The Russians could not capture the straits, they were busy with the internecine massacre.
        Finally, Christianity won only after the "Batu invasion", the pagan principalities of the northeast and east were the first to come under attack. The city of Kozelsk, in which there were no Christians, was completely carved out and wiped off the face of the earth.
        Hordes of nomads were led by Greek priests; the steppes themselves would never have been able to find Russian cities in the forests. Therefore, the invaders did not touch the priests.
        1. George
          George 2 November 2013 22: 30
          0
          Nikolay,
          Of course, I do not have sources that allow me to talk about the intentional decaying and annihilating action of Christianity in Russia (write if you can your sources in PM), but
          Quote: Corsair5912
          The city of Kozelsk, in which there were no Christians, was completely cut out

          Cut out, I believe, it means surrendered to the mercy of the winner, but the inhabitants of this heroic City (plans to visit this city, in the first place) fought from young to old, and died with arms in their hands.
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 3 November 2013 11: 30
            -1
            Quote: GEORGE
            Of course, I do not have sources that allow me to talk about the intentional decaying and annihilating action of Christianity in Russia (write if you can your sources in PM), but

            Cut out, I believe, it means surrendered to the mercy of the winner, but the inhabitants of this heroic City (plans to visit this city, in the first place) fought from young to old, and died with arms in their hands.

            Download the books of Leo Prozorov criticized here on the net and read, there is not idle talk, as in this priestly article, but a reasoned account of events during and after baptism.
            Kozelsk did not surrender, but besides those who could fight, there were old people, women and children. The bearded "Mongols" with crosses on their belly did not spare even babies. And where and when did they spare someone?
        2. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 23: 31
          +1
          less Varangian fly agaric for the night ....
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 3 November 2013 11: 35
            0
            Quote: tomket
            less Varangian fly agaric for the night ....

            And what is Varangian fly agaric? How long have you been using them?
  9. washi
    washi 2 November 2013 10: 53
    +8
    I don’t care who Peresvet was. After all, in accordance with official history, he fought for his homeland.
  10. Captain45
    Captain45 2 November 2013 11: 27
    +9
    Quote: makarov
    Opposite side: Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov (creative pseudonym - Ozar Voron) - Russian writer, publicist. He is the author of a number of books about Ancient Russia. He was born on May 29 1972 in Izhevsk. He graduated from the Faculty of History and Graduate School of Udmurt State University. He lives in Novokuybyshevsk (Samara region).

    I remembered for a long time where I saw this name-Lev Prozorov, then I remembered that in the bookstore there were several books on the "Fantasy" shelf, along with the adventures of Konon the Barbarian and the Rat of stainless steel. He writes fairy-tale books about the life of the Slavs, but before Maria Semyonova he like cancer before China. So his opus about Peresvet can be regarded as another fantasy. But it's a pity that there is no Glavlit, there is no one to pull the presumptuous "writers"
    1. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 33
      -3
      Quote: Captain45
      long remembered where he saw this name-Lev Prozorov, then remembered, in the bookstore there were several books on the shelf "Fantasy", along with the adventures of Konon the Barbarian

      Books of Lev Prozorov never stand on fantasy shelves.
      By ignorance you confuse him with Alexander Prozorov, to whom the Jewess Maria Semenova is further than cancer to Rio da Janeiro.
  11. Nayhas
    Nayhas 2 November 2013 11: 55
    +1
    Peresvet could not be a monk. Purely logical. To send a fighter to a duel, having no experience other than horse power, is simply stupid. To hold the spear correctly and even more so to get into the enemy, you need to train a lot and for a long time, and the fact that Peresvet killed Chelubey says that he was a professional warrior.
    1. bunta
      bunta 2 November 2013 12: 34
      +7
      And why did you decide that the monks did just that and beat their forehead on the floor?
      The purpose of the monasteries is not only spiritual but also military. Not for nothing they were built in the form of well-fortified structures. And often at the borders of the state. The martial art of Shao-lin is well known for the promoted artworks. The martial art of the monks of Europe (Templars) and Russia is less known, because this was treated not as an art, but as a craft. And being a monk and wielding an censer or sword equally was as natural as being a military man and using a computer.
      1. Corsair
        Corsair 2 November 2013 12: 51
        +6
        Quote: bunta
        And why did you decide that the monks did just that and beat their forehead on the floor?
        The purpose of the monasteries is not only spiritual but also military. Not for nothing they were built in the form of well-fortified structures. And often at the borders of the state.


        Clickable Image:
      2. Nayhas
        Nayhas 2 November 2013 13: 26
        0
        Quote: bunta
        And why did you decide that the monks did just that and beat their forehead on the floor?

        Quote: bunta
        And being a monk and wielding an censer or sword equally was as natural as being a military man and using a computer.

        I admit that the monks wielded a sword, I admit that the strong walls of the monasteries were defended by the monks themselves. But possession of a spear on horseback is something else, it has nothing to do with the above, the nobles learned this from childhood and honed their skills in battles. Or do you think that it is enough to learn to ride a horse, and "poke" with a spear and can?
        1. bunta
          bunta 2 November 2013 13: 57
          +1
          Driving a horse is like driving a car now, it doesn't matter if you are a monk or a "nobleman" winked Well, with a spear in the foot ranks or on horseback - the difference is not big. And the number of receptions is not large. The spear on the horse is mainly against the enemy on foot. The duel between the knights, that of Peresvet and Chelubey before the first blow, and then with swords, if both survived. Great art and training does not require.
          1. Nayhas
            Nayhas 2 November 2013 19: 00
            0
            Quote: bunta
            Well, with a spear in the foot ranks or on horseback - the difference is not big. And the number of receptions is not large. The spear on the horse is mainly against the enemy on foot. The duel between the knights, that of Peresvet and Chelubey before the first blow, and then with swords, if both survived. Great art and training does not require.

            Orenet ... It turns out the easiest ... In a couple of lessons, learn?
            1. bunta
              bunta 2 November 2013 19: 38
              0
              For how many lessons did fighter pilots master a frontal attack during WWII? Here I am for the same amount.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 21
                -2
                Quote: bunta
                For how many lessons did fighter pilots master a frontal attack during WWII? Here I am for the same amount.

                A counter question, even a few.
                How many lessons did a fighter pilot do from a regular pilot?
                For how many lessons did a pilot do from a civilian?
          2. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 2 November 2013 21: 27
            -2
            Quote: bunta
            Driving a horse is like driving a car now, it doesn't matter if you are a monk or a "nobleman." But with a spear on foot or on horseback - the difference is not big. And the number of receptions is not great. The spear on horseback is mainly against the enemy on foot. An oncoming duel duel between the knights and Peresvet and Chelubey before the first blow, and then on swords, if both survived. Doesn't require great art and training.

            You are wrong, a trained rider in battle cost hundreds of peasants.
            First, the horse had to be able to control without the help of hands, spurs. Hands were occupied with a shield and a spear.
            Secondly, the knights, before automatism, practiced precise spear strikes, knocking out scarecrows, logs, stakes or falling into special rings, which is very difficult, etc. etc.
            Training required a lot of effort and time. To check the preparation of the knights, competitions were held on lists (participants in the competitions who reached the finals were called knights or later knights, hence the simplified German reiter - the horseman). Russian riders' competitions were taken over in the west, where they were called tournaments.
      3. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 46
        0
        Quote: bunta
        The purpose of the monasteries is not only spiritual but also military. Not for nothing they were built in the form of well-fortified structures. And often at the borders of the state. The martial art of Shao-lin is well known for the promoted artworks. The martial art of the monks of Europe (Templars) and Russia is less known, because this was treated not as an art, but as a craft. And being a monk and wielding an censer or sword equally was as natural as being a military man and using a computer.

        The Shao-lin monks were forbidden to have and use weapons, therefore they created methods of hand-to-hand combat for an unarmed monk against an armed robber.
        Catholics had knights Templar monks, Teutons, Livonians, and Orthodox people of a spiritual rank were forbidden to take up arms.
        In the Russian fortress monasteries, not monks fought, but army units.
        The monk could take up arms to protect the monastery, with the special permission of the senior in rank, but then he was supposed to repentance and a long penance.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. bunta
          bunta 2 November 2013 19: 35
          +1
          Quote: Corsair5912
          The monk could take up arms to protect the monastery, with the special permission of the senior in rank, but then he was supposed to repentance and a long penance.


          I think there was no red tape with "special permission", if by that time the walls had already been broken and the gates were cracking under pressure.
          And there could be no penance. For it extends to those who have sinned, "the permission of the elder in rank" removes the sin. And to scare a monk with penance and repentance is like a woman, sorry, with a carrot. wink Monks do not exult.

          Here's a snap:

          2 August 1675. The fifty-thousandth Turkish-Tatar army led by Khan Nurredin approached Pochaev. Residents of neighboring settlements fled to the monastery, which at that time was surrounded only by a rough wooden picket fence. Everyone who was only in power to hold weapons, as from among the monks, and from among the laity, they came to the defense of the monastery. According to legend, during the reading of an akathist in front of the icon of the Mother of God of Pochaev, clouds suddenly parted in the sky and the Mother of God appeared in a brilliant radiance, surrounded by angels, and praying Job Pochaevsky next to her.


          1. bunta
            bunta 2 November 2013 20: 53
            +3
            Here's another. For the holiday just:

            The siege by the Polish troops of the Trinity-Sergiev Monastery located 71 km north of Moscow lasted from September 1608 to January 1610. After the failed attempt of the troops of False Dmitry II, to capture Moscow, the enemies sought to isolate it by blockade. When passing Moscow from the north, the barrier on their way was the Trinity-Sergius Lavra, which at that time was a strong fortress. About 2500 armed soldiers, monks and peasants took part in the defense of the laurels. She had significant stockpiles of weapons and ammunition. The defense was led by the governors - the princes Dolgorukov-Roshcha and Golokhvastov, governor Vnukov. Many women and children from their neighboring villages and towns also took refuge in the monastery.

            23 September 1608 year Polish troops Y.P. Sapieha and A.Yu. Lisovsky (about 30000 people) approached the monastery and, after an unsuccessful attempt to capture it from the start, began a siege from 3 on October, conducting continuous shelling of 63 guns. The first assault on the 13 monastery in October was repelled with heavy losses for the besiegers. The invaders continued shelling the fortress, undermining tried to divert water from the ponds from the laurel, and with the onset of cold weather deprived the besieged of the opportunity to extract fuel. The defenders of the monastery inflicted tangible losses on the enemy with continuous sorties and counter-trenches. The peasants Shilov and Slot, having sacrificed their lives, blew up one of the undermining. A detachment of defenders (200 people) entered the rear of the Poles and in a fierce battle captured 5 batteries. The Poles fled to their camp, losing 1500 people. By May 1609, due to the tsynga epidemic, no more than 1000 defenders remained in the laurel. Despite this, the defenders of the fortress repulsed a new assault on the night of May 28, capturing siege weapons and prisoners from the enemy. The storms of 27 and 28 of July were also reflected. The defeats of the invaders at Kalyazin and Aleksandrovskaya Sloboda eased the position of the besieged. Units of V. Zherebtsov (600 warriors) and G. Valuev (500 warriors) broke into the monastery to help them. Under the threat of the advance of the troops M.V. Skopin-Shuisky remnants of the Polish troops (about 6000 people) lifted the siege and on January 12 of the 1610 of the year fled to Dmitrov.

            http://lemur59.ru/node/153
          2. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 2 November 2013 22: 30
            0
            Quote: bunta
            I think there was no red tape with "special permission", if by that time the walls had already been broken and the gates were cracking under pressure.
            And there could be no penance. For it extends to those who have sinned, the "permission of the elder in rank" removes the sin. And to scare a monk with penance and penance is like a woman, sorry, with a carrot. Monks do not get used to.

            You are absolutely right, the monks in Russia were not hypocrites, especially in military affairs.
            To the vigorous singing of "Kyrie Eleison" they beat the asses of any enemies of the Fatherland and the Orthodox Faith. IMHO.
    2. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 13: 01
      +3
      Well, then they don’t go to monks from birth, or do you think that he is a monk from the cradle in a cassock ???? about equestrian experience, do you think that everyone who has rights should be a professional race car driver ??? By the way, the monks were often known for their militancy, remember at least the frequent sieges of the same Solovki, with the same Alexei Tishaysh. Or do you think that the monks called the unknown army to defend the monasteries ???
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 2 November 2013 13: 31
        +1
        Quote: tomket
        about equestrian experience, do you think that everyone who has rights should be a professional race car driver ???

        Not everyone who owns horse riding is able to work with a spear.
        Quote: tomket
        By the way, the monks were often known for their militancy, remember at least the frequent sieges of the same Solovki, with the same Alexei Tishaysh. Or do you think that the monks called the unknown army to defend the monasteries ???

        The monks were not the only defenders of the monasteries, but this is not important. A monk with a sword on the fortress wall is one thing, and a monk on a warhorse (not ordinary, which is used only as transport) with a heavy spear and shield is completely different, the latter is absolutely incompatible with the first.
        1. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 13: 36
          +5
          Well, Peresvet was a boyar before the tonsure and participated in the battle and campaigns, the boyars not only eat red caviar with spoons, but also sit in towers.
    3. Gamdlislyam
      Gamdlislyam 2 November 2013 14: 37
      +4
      Quote: Nayhas
      Peresvet could not be a monk. Purely logical. To send a fighter to a duel, having no experience other than horse power, is simply stupid. To hold the spear correctly and even more so to get into the enemy, you need to train a lot and for a long time, and the fact that Peresvet killed Chelubey says that he was a professional warrior.

      Dear colleague Eugene, I have to object to you, since you proceed from the postulate that all monks never held weapons in their hands. Alas, this is not so. In the 13-17 centuries to the serfs (peasants, artisans) the path to the monks was ordered. Only nobles, boyars, princes, and in later times even lower ranks, could become monks. If the princes received the title from birth, the nobles and the boyars were supposed to serve (the boyars only in the 15th century turned into a hereditary estate), and at that time the service was only military (in squads). When the wars were not able to continue military service, they had two ways - to go to the monastery, or to engage in peasant labor. To turn into slaves, few people were attracted, and therefore they became monks.
      As a historical example: Ilya Muromets ended his days in a monastic dignity. True, he died of a spear in the chest. So the story of Peresvet and Oslyabya is not something extra ordinary.
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 27
        0
        Quote: Gamdlislyam
        Dear colleague Eugene, I have to object to you, since you proceed from the postulate that all monks never held weapons in their hands. Alas, this is not so. In the 13-17 centuries, slaves (peasants, artisans), the path to the monks was ordered.

        Prior to being tonsured a monk, a boyar or a peasant could hold everything he wanted in his hands.
        And persons of the clergy were forbidden to take up arms. This very well, with references to the decrees of church councils, is said in the book by Prozorov, criticized here, "The Pagans of Baptized Rus."
    4. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 36
      -3
      Quote: Nayhas
      Peresvet could not be a monk. Purely logical. To send a fighter to a duel, having no experience other than horse power, is simply stupid. To hold the spear correctly and even more so to get into the enemy, you need to train a lot and for a long time, and the fact that Peresvet killed Chelubey says that he was a professional warrior.

      Relight was not only a monk, but also a Christian. The name Peresvet is pagan, if he had a Christian name, it would necessarily appear in the annals, so the priests would try.
      1. Gregazov
        Gregazov 2 November 2013 16: 40
        +1
        Quote: Corsair5912
        Quote: Nayhas
        Peresvet could not be a monk. Purely logical. To send a fighter to a duel, having no experience other than horse power, is simply stupid. To hold the spear correctly and even more so to get into the enemy, you need to train a lot and for a long time, and the fact that Peresvet killed Chelubey says that he was a professional warrior.

        Relight was not only a monk, but also a Christian. The name Peresvet is pagan, if he had a Christian name, it would necessarily appear in the annals, so the priests would try.

        The name George the Victorious of Elina, i.e. pagan. By your logic, was he also a pagan? Relight is not a name, it is a nickname, as well as the well-known nickname of the founder of the Romanov clan (in my opinion, Peter) Kobyl.
        1. Corsair5912
          Corsair5912 2 November 2013 17: 17
          -2
          Quote: GregAzov

          The name George the Victorious of Elina, i.e. pagan. By your logic, was he also a pagan? Relight is not a name, it is a nickname, as well as the well-known nickname of the founder of the Romanov clan (in my opinion, Peter) Kobyl.

          George the Victorious is a mythical person like Christ, Solomon, Moses, etc. logically, these guys are also pagans, that is not Christians by birth.
          Who was the prototype of St. George is not exactly known whether he was a Christian all the more.
          The Russian nickname is the name, the baptized still have two names, the first home, pagan, the second given by the priest at baptism. Sometimes the boyars and peasants had a third name, a kind of operational pseudonym.
          The ancestor of the Romanovs and a number of other noble families is considered to be Andrei Ivanovich Kobyl, whose father (according to the birth tradition), Glanda-Kambila Divonovich, in the baptism of Ivan, came to Russia in the last quarter of the XIV century from Lithuania or “from Pruss”. Some historians believe that the Romanovs came from Novgorod (the nickname (diminutive name) of Gabriel Gavsha also speaks about this).
          Andrei Ivanovich had five sons: Semyon Stallion, Alexander Yolka, Vasily Ivantay, Gabriel Gavshu and Fedor Koshka, who were the founders of 17 Russian noble houses.
          1. Gregazov
            Gregazov 3 November 2013 21: 17
            +1
            They do not become Christians from birth, but from Baptism. George is by no means a mythical person, but a real person. Perhaps he was not baptized in water, but he was baptized with blood during his martyrdom. After that, Christians were called by his name at baptism, not only toddlers, but also to adults.
            Now about nicknames. Before military service, people did not have names. There were names and patronymics. Ivan Fedotov son. There were quite a few such Ivanov Fedotov sons, so they were given additional nicknames. So, your statement that Peresvet this name is unreasonable and rather controversial.
  12. Quartermaster
    Quartermaster 2 November 2013 12: 05
    +3
    Glory to the Family!
  13. crbvbyjr
    crbvbyjr 2 November 2013 12: 52
    -1
    I wonder where they saw the nonsense of Prozorov. And Orthodoxy and patriotism Well, well, how long have they ceased to be Christians
  14. dropout
    dropout 2 November 2013 13: 23
    +2
    "History, in a sense, is a sacred book of peoples: the main, necessary; a mirror of their being and activity; a tablet of revelations and rules; the testament of ancestors to posterity; addition, an explanation of the present and an example of the future."

    N.M. Karamzin

    Therefore, people like Prozorov should not be allowed to touch it with their hands.
    1. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 14
      0
      Quote: dropout
      "History, in a sense, is a sacred book of peoples: the main, necessary; a mirror of their being and activity; a tablet of revelations and rules; the testament of ancestors to posterity; addition, an explanation of the present and an example of the future."

      N.M. Karamzin

      Therefore, people like Prozorov should not be allowed to touch it with their hands.

      Learn, dropout.
      Karamzin's story is fiction for entertaining reading.
      He probably did not like to wash his hands and put so much obvious lies in his story that it was ridiculous to read.
      The contradictory nature of Karamzin’s work was well understood by Pushkin. Pushkin is not
      only understood and saw the artistic nature of the “History”, but also defined
      the originality of its artistic method and genre. By Pushkin, Karamzin
      acted as a historian and as an artist, his work is a synthesis of analytical
      and artistic knowledge of history.
      1. radio operator
        radio operator 11 November 2013 08: 54
        +1
        Quote: Corsair5912
        Karamzin's story is fiction for entertaining reading.
        He probably did not like to wash his hands and put so much obvious lies in his story that it was ridiculous to read.

        Where to Karamzin!
        Of course, he would have burned out of shame if he had known about the great historian Corsair5912 !!!!!!!
        Karamzin was not lucky that he did not have the opportunity to read liberal pseudo-historical opuses.
  15. vlad.svargin
    vlad.svargin 2 November 2013 13: 36
    0
    Why the Russian history, to which we are accustomed from school, “suddenly” turned out to be wrong. Who and when distorted the true picture of Russian history? ... Having come to power, the Romanovs probably tried to plaster the most ancient Russian history. Therefore, historians of the Romanov era, having explicit or implicit indications, tried to “not dig deeply”. It was dangerous. Not just dangerous, but deadly. They remembered the fate of the clerk Viskovaty! (He was executed on the market square in Moscow by the crucifixion on the cross) [Russia and the Horde. The Great Empire of the Middle Ages. V. Nosovsky, A. T. Fomenko]

    The reign of the first Romanovs - Mikhail, Alexei, Fedor Alekseevich - is characterized by the massive burning of books, the destruction of archives, church schism, and the fight against the Cossacks-Horde. More or less well-lit, documented Russian history begins, unfortunately, only after Peter I. [Russia and the Horde. The Great Empire of the Middle Ages. V. Nosovsky, A. T. Fomenko]

    And already under Peter I, the Millerian-Romanov version of Russian history began. MILLER WAS THE FIRST to publish the full version of Russian history as it exists today. Gradually it was introduced into the school curriculum. The authors of Russian ancient history were foreigners, fulfilling the order of the then European rulers. Therefore, I doubt the statements of the members of the forum and even though the article is far from the truth, it is closer than the official history. There are many different books and different authors on this topic. I gave an example: "Russia and the Horde. The Great Empire of the Middle Ages" GV Nosovsky, AT Fomenko.
    1. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 13: 39
      +3
      some books can only be wiped, may the forum users forgive me, advice: keep Fomenko in the toilet, in case the paper runs out.
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 20
        -2
        Quote: tomket
        some books can only be wiped, may the forum users forgive me, advice: keep Fomenko in the toilet, in case the paper runs out.

        We are not like cocks like you, we read books, and we don’t throw them into the toilet.
        Fomenko’s books are extremely interesting, convincing and informative.
        1. tomket
          tomket 2 November 2013 15: 39
          -1
          and, I understand, due to the worship of jalbog, only photosynthesis takes place in your body, and as you say above all this))) Well, someone reads mine kampfom and considers it extremely interesting, convincing and informative. this does not mean that everyone is obliged to love this rubbish.
          1. Corsair5912
            Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 56
            +1
            Quote: tomket
            and, I understand, due to the worship of jalbog, only photosynthesis takes place in your body, and as you say above all this))) Well, someone reads mine kampfom and considers it extremely interesting, convincing and informative. this does not mean that everyone is obliged to love this rubbish.

            It’s fair, about Mine Kampf, to love such a disgusting, but convincing and informative. You make sure that the Führer was a complete bastard and find out that he would attack the USSR under any circumstances.
            As for photosynthesis, you are mistaken for it, chlorophyll is necessary, and in my blood its analog is hemoglobin.
            Anecdote:
            Maryivanna, in a botany lesson - Children, flowers are organs of propagation of partings.
            Little Johnny, angrily - Couldn't you tell before? I sniffed them.
          2. baltika-18
            baltika-18 2 November 2013 17: 11
            -2
            Quote: tomket
            by virtue of worshiping a jalbog

            Actually, Give it to God, that is, the one who gives. For example, in the Christian prayer "Our Father" there are words: "Give us this day our daily bread." In general, the topic of comparing Christianity and paganism is very interesting and here the Russian language is a very powerful helper. Let's take the pagan trinity: Yes, God, Kolo, Khors. Let us find out that it is the giver, but not the name. Christ is recorded without vocalizations as ХРС, Khors is recorded in the same way. In Russia, since ancient times, Nicholas the Wonderworker is very popular. Allegedly "Greek "the name Nikolay, the prefix no-, the root -col-, the ending -ai. There is no doubt that the root -col- is the test word Kolya. The prefixes neither-, do- mean negation. That is, we have Nikolai this is not Kolo, not god. But another name Kolo, Kolyada. We have the name Kolya. The pagans also have the name Perun, but this is a truncated version of the word pervun, first, the same scheme as with the words "keen", "vugol", "vyunosha" , only in the middle of the word. The name Vladimir (Volodya) is also interesting. After all, the name Volodya now has a solid -d-, and once di phthong -dz-. That is, the sound was Volodya-Volozy-Volosya. It is consonant with another pagan god Veles, the so-called cattle god. And in fact, in the name Volodya root -vol-. But the ox is cattle. The semantics are obvious.
            So the Russian language is truly great and powerful. With a thoughtful analysis, it is able to shed light on some issues, and to plunge classics from history and theology into shock.
            1. tomket
              tomket 2 November 2013 17: 15
              +3
              I asked like a professor at a lecture on the Russian language about such phrases, she shrugged and said that you can think of anything.
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 2 November 2013 17: 42
                +1
                You can come up with one, two, three ... But constantly and when these "notions" form a system. The Russian language is good because over the centuries it does not lose its semantic significance. To remove this witness of the falsity of the history of civilization, you need to destroy the carrier of this language, people. This is one of the reasons, and maybe the main one for which they have been trying to destroy us for centuries.
              2. baltika-18
                baltika-18 2 November 2013 18: 04
                -1
                Quote: tomket
                you can think of anything.

                By the way, Alexander, we’ll come up with an idea. Today is the Christian holiday Dmitrov’s Saturday, it’s customary to commemorate the deceased relatives on this day. Don’t tell me by chance what relation the son of the Roman proconsul Dmitry has to the commemoration of our ancestors. , since the dead ancestors of the Slavs, and not only they were very revered.
                Who was invented here? He’s celebrated the holiday for centuries. Was there a Roman proconsul, wasn’t it, hell knows.
  16. knn54
    knn54 2 November 2013 13: 44
    +4
    The question is complex.
    In the "posad list" dated 1380, Peresvet was listed as a homeowner in Bryansk, that is, he could not have been a novice of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery in 1380.
    In authentic sources, Rodion Oslyabya is not indicated anywhere, except for the "Life of Sergius of Radonezh", as a monk. In one of the lists Oslyabya is found without specifying a name, recorded as a centurion. Although he could take monastic vows with the name Andrew in 1379 or 1380.
    If the feat of Peresvet immediately began to be glorified in the narratives of the Battle of Kulikovo, the oldest known stories about it are silent about Oslyab. His name was not included in most of the annals of those killed in the Kulikovo field, nor is it found in the synodics of the fallen. Only Zadonshchina, depicting monk warriors as epic heroes, speaks of the death in the battle of not only Alexander Peresvet, but also Andrei Oslyaby, as well as his son Jacob. About the death in the battle of Peresvet and Oslyaby also says "The Tale of the Battle of Mamaev."
    And the relations of Dmitry Donskoy with Sergius of Radonezh were very complicated: the protégé of Sergius to the position of Metropolitan, the Suzdal bishop Dionysius was arrested by Dmitry Donskoy. And Metropolitan Cyprian, the second protege of Sergius, generally cursed and excommunicated Dmitry Donskoy from the church. True, after the Battle of Kulikovo, he changed his mind - winners are not judged.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. crbvbyjr
    crbvbyjr 2 November 2013 14: 50
    0
    and who decides who to relate to history and who not.
  19. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 2 November 2013 15: 01
    +1
    The author of the article under review is particularly trying to prove that the generally accepted opinion that Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya were monks, a myth. Since the author has set a goal to overthrow the 600-year-old historical tradition, enshrined in the works of prominent historians of the XIX-XX centuries (N. M. Karamzin, S. M. Solovyov, S. F. Platonov, etc.), it is natural to expect serious research, knowledge of scientific literature , source analysis and accurate links.

    This is not a note, but the book "Pagans of Baptized Rus. Tales of the Black Years", the author does not "try" to subvert, he convincingly expresses his point of view.
    How "tradition" is consolidated and what the works of "outstanding historians" are worth, we personally observe on the example of the new history of the USSR. Blatant lies and slander against the Soviet people in the presence of living witnesses are easily accepted and encouraged by the official authorities.
    The names Oslyabya and Peresvet are clearly pagan, Prozorov does not need to prove anything.
    Personally, I never renounce my pagan ancestors and never admit that their gods and faith were worse than faith in the resurrection of the Jewish carpenter.
    They considered themselves the grandchildren of the Sun-Dazhbog and were right, the heat and light of the Sun are necessary for the existence of life on earth. Our great-great-grandfathers, the pagans were great warriors and creators, and the priests have no right to insult them.
    Gundyaev is wrong !!!
    1. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 15: 18
      0
      The names Alexander and Andrei, by the way are quite Christian, Peresvet, as the cat Matroskin said last names. By the way, why does your Jalbog send so little grace to his people, in the sense of warmth, if he would have loved the Gentiles, so would Brazil be with us, and so go unhappy in stepsons.
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 2 November 2013 16: 06
        -1
        Quote: tomket
        The names Alexander and Andrei, by the way are quite Christian, Peresvet, as the cat Matroskin said last names. By the way, why does your Jalbog send so little grace to his people, in the sense of warmth, if he would have loved the Gentiles, so would Brazil be with us, and so go unhappy in stepsons.

        I advise you to read the book of Prozorov - "The Pagans of Baptized Russia", it says about everything, and about names, and about surnames, and about registration.
        Dazhbog is retired, now Jesus Christ rules everything, and he strives to give his fellow tribesmen more heat to give. They will finally dry out there soon and the second Dead Sea will appear.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 34
        -1
        Quote: tomket
        By the way, why does your Jalbog send so little grace to his people, in the sense of warmth, if he would have loved the Gentiles, so would Brazil be with us, and so go unhappy in stepsons.

        You gave a bad example (Brazil), excess heat is as bad as a lack. The heat of bones does not break - the northern peoples came up with, the southerner will not repeat such stupidity.
  20. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 2 November 2013 15: 30
    +4
    The aspirations of some citizens to try to discredit the past of Russia, to look for "sensational" facts, to refute the course of certain events proved by historical science. Such people deserve nothing but contempt. It is regrettable that the delirium of such "historians" is spread throughout the world by some citizens.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 40
      -1
      Quote: Ivanovich47
      refute the course of certain events proven by historical science

      You at least take an interest in what such scientific methods are proved. What science was guided by people who wrote chronology in the 17-18 centuries?
  21. makarov
    makarov 2 November 2013 18: 56
    +1
    Quote: tomket
    only please, without the unfortunate Copernicus, since that Catholic, they justly burned him for two.


    Yes, no one burned it. He died of his stroke death in bed.
    1. tomket
      tomket 2 November 2013 20: 10
      0
      Amendment by Giordano Bruno, Copernicanism was only condemned as a doctrine years after so one hundred after the death of Copernicus.
  22. EdwardTich68
    EdwardTich68 2 November 2013 20: 01
    +1
    Judging by the fact that in those ancient times, only monasteries had the ability to transmit information
    and the rest of the population was completely illiterate, with the possible exception of the Novgorod Republic,
    very much like the truth.
    1. Corsair5912
      Corsair5912 2 November 2013 21: 50
      0
      Quote: EdwardTich68
      Judging by the fact that in those ancient times, only monasteries had the ability to transmit information
      and the rest of the population was completely illiterate, with the possible exception of the Novgorod Republic,
      very much like the truth.

      Long before baptism, there were educational institutions in all of Russia where children were taught to read and write.
      The wise men, princes, warriors, merchants, artisans, and most of the peasantry were necessarily literate. In all cities of vast Russia, pottery, blacksmithing and other products signed by masters were found.
      It was dark centuries in Western Europe, when only monks were allowed to know the letter.
      Anna Yaroslavna, having made a long journey through Krakow, Prague and Regensburg, arrived in the city of Reims. In a letter to her father, she wrote: “To which barbaric country did you send me; here dwellings are gloomy, churches are ugly and morals are terrible. ” However, according to the chronicles, Henry I really liked Anna and on 19 on May 1051, a magnificent wedding was played.
      On the French documents of that time, along with the signatures of her husband, there are also Slavic letters: "Anna Ryina" (Queen Anna). Pope Nicholas II, surprised by Anna’s remarkable political abilities, wrote to her in a letter:
      "The rumor about your virtues, a delightful girl, has reached our ears, and with great joy we hear that you are fulfilling your royal duties in this very Christian state with commendable zeal and a wonderful mind."
      1. EdwardTich68
        EdwardTich68 2 November 2013 23: 10
        0
        We are talking about the time after the invasion, before no one argues, Russia was Europe
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 4 November 2013 04: 41
      -1
      Quote: EdwardTich68
      Judging by the fact that in those ancient times, only monasteries had the ability to transmit information

      It is strange that now the monasteries do nothing of this, they do not keep chronicles.
  23. 1536
    1536 3 November 2013 00: 34
    0
    Do you know how history theses are written? A new, unexplored topic, of course, requires long painstaking work in archives, libraries, full dedication and, most importantly, love for one's Motherland and its people. Why is it so tormented? It is necessary to take a topic that has already been studied, to which hundreds of published works are devoted, and, turning it inside out, present these fabrications of ours as the latest achievement of scientific thought. Of course, this should be blocked in the form of the Higher Attestation Commission, scientific councils of universities. But no, everything is commercialized there. And now such a "doctor of sciences" walks around and teaches everyone. He himself is surprised that his lies are taken so seriously, but nothing can be done about it. The worst thing about this process is that these ideas are getting into the school. And in 10-15 years our children will no longer know anything about the Tatar-Mongol yoke, about the Patriotic War of 1812 (the invasion of twelve languages ​​into Russia is now being declared a continuation of the French revolutionary wars that brought the peoples of Europe "liberation" from serf slavery). The memory of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945 will also become a thing of the past, turning into the study of "the history of the Second World War" mainly in the African theater of military operations. Thus, the memory of the Russian people will be erased. In this connection, I have a proposal to stop this terrible process of destroying the memory of the people. On the Internet, you can create a portal of sites dedicated to the real, scientific reflection of Russian history on the basis of archival documents, research, publications. It is necessary to put an end to the monopoly on historical research by non-Russian people, or people who are distant in their mentality and way of life from the Russian people, from its traditions and ideas. If this is not done, then soon we will not only look at the "history" of the Battle of Stalingrad in three Ds, but our entire Russian history will turn into one negative sentence: "There was no Russian history."
  24. EdwardTich68
    EdwardTich68 3 November 2013 01: 01
    -3
    He himself is surprised that his lies are taken so seriously, but nothing can be done about it.
    The Russian people will never be united, we are only 1,5% on earth. The main thing is these gloomy times, so that the carriers of statehood do not forget their origins. Nothing depends on us.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  25. Ross
    Ross 3 November 2013 04: 45
    +3
    Quote: Asgard
    Turn on the logic and carefully read what is in the Archives ...

    Unfortunately, most site visitors relate to history as football fans ... What is the logic here. Someone from the government ranked the church as a patriotic force — we thoughtlessly defend it, completely preventing us from logically and impartially exploring its role in Russian history.
    Of course, emotions and extremes are not needed here, but hiding uncomfortable facts is also worthless for an honest analysis.
    1. radio operator
      radio operator 11 November 2013 08: 41
      0
      Quote: Ross
      most site visitors relate to the story as football fans ... What is the logic here. Someone from the government ranked the church as a patriotic power — we thoughtlessly defend it, completely preventing us from logically and impartially exploring its role in Russian history.

      Is this article not a logical study?
      It is quite reasonable.
      But Lev Rudolfovich acts, just not understanding, blindly following the hatred of the Russian Orthodox Church.
      And most of the site is patriotic people, hence the hostility to the detractors of the Faith and the people.
  26. pawel57
    pawel57 3 November 2013 05: 01
    +3
    From all sorts of media, a stream of filth is constantly pouring on Russian history and the state. Almost all people who are Jewish are noteworthy. Why should not the Jews take up the history of their Israel, and not write, remove the nasty things about the Russians. Maybe it’s time to come to our historic homeland and sob about the colocost. It seems that under the guise of intelligence ordinary nits hide
  27. crbvbyjr
    crbvbyjr 3 November 2013 14: 47
    0
    [quote = Ross] [quote = Asgard] Turn on the logic and carefully read what is in the Archives ... [/ quote]
    Unfortunately, most site visitors relate to history as football fans ... What is the logic here. Someone from the government ranked the church as a patriotic force — we thoughtlessly defend it, completely preventing us from logically and impartially exploring its role in Russian history.
    that's exactly what many people confuse the church and the people. and how religious people were as it was shown by the civil war and there is no need to soar brains about the evil Bolsheviks. the numerous peasantry was indifferent to the fate of the priests
  28. Arkan
    Arkan 3 November 2013 16: 01
    +1
    The "doubter", in the Feat of the Inoks, the author, can be advised to take his work with him when he goes wed ..., because the process, at the top of his body, when writing an article, is similar.
  29. Yuri Y.
    Yuri Y. 3 November 2013 17: 06
    +1
    At that time, nothing could be done without a church, and if the princes rebelled, the church did everything for this. Our ancestors did not pay attention to anyone, if there was faith, then they left it for themselves. This is now the majority believes in a golden calf. And surnames can be any, even Dubinkin or Peresvet, the main attitude to the world. Maybe that's why, somewhere deep down, I pray to my ancestors, their faith is my faith.
  30. crbvbyjr
    crbvbyjr 4 November 2013 22: 09
    0
    NOBODY DOUBT Doubt in the feat of overexposure YOU Doubt only in such a trifle insignificant as it was supposedly a monk. I hadn’t been a monk and that the hero’s deed had not been killed.
  31. Azak
    5 November 2013 11: 52
    +1
    Quote: Corsair5912
    Quote: tomket
    Give at least one case of the struggle of the Orthodox Church with progress, tell the whole truth as it is, do not be shy, please! only please, without the unfortunate Copernicus, since that Catholic, they justly burned him for two.

    Kolya Copernicus was not burned, he did not publish his astronomical discoveries. He died in 1543 year in 70 years from a stroke.
    They burned Gordano Bruno in 1600 at the age of 52 for promoting the heliocentric system of Copernicus.
    If you want to enjoy the list of crimes of popovshchina look at the site
    http://s409382223.initial-website.com/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF


    %D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%85%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD/



    DURING THE INQUISITION IN EUROPE CHRISTIAN
    KILLED 13 MILLION MAN, OF THEM 5 MILLION. WOMEN !.

    CHRISTIANS KILLED DURING THE BAPTISM OF RUSSIA
    9 MILLION MAN.

    CHRISTIANS KILLED IN CROSS VISITS
    30 MILLION MAN.


    And where are the sources or references to the sources that during the baptism of Russia 9 million people were killed? Why not 10 million or not 1 person, how did they calculate where the digital figure came from?
    According to the estimates of scientists (including Vernadsky and Tikhomirov), in the 10th-13th centuries around 4-5 million people lived in Russia (the number of famous archaeological sites + correction for undetected ones).
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. Azak
    5 November 2013 13: 23
    -1
    [quote = crbvbyjr] [quote = Ross] [quote = Asgard] Turn on the logic and carefully read what is in the Archives ... [/ quote]
    Unfortunately, most site visitors relate to history as football fans ... What is the logic here. Someone from the government ranked the church as a patriotic force — we thoughtlessly defend it, completely preventing us from logically and impartially exploring its role in Russian history.
    that's exactly what many people confuse the church and the people. and how religious people were as it was shown by the civil war and there is no need to soar brains about the evil Bolsheviks. the numerous peasantry was indifferent to the fate of the priests [/ quote]
    It seems to be so, but not quite ... Read about the "renovationists" and the "living church", which the Bolsheviks strenuously pushed in the 20s, the highest hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church, unloved by many members of the forum, displayed amazing masculinity. And about the indifference - people's indifference to the church - history speaks for itself: the church would not have survived the Soviet power if it had not been supported by the people.
    1. radio operator
      radio operator 11 November 2013 08: 25
      0
      Sorry, by mistake minusanul.
      I went in profile - put a plus.
  34. radio operator
    radio operator 11 November 2013 08: 34
    0
    Reading this text, you are strengthened in the belief that incompetence is in fashion in our time. The logic and arguments in the eyes of many have long lost their significance. Only one sensational and scandalous enough that the article was very popular.

    That is how it is. Ozar Voron is one of those "historians" who pull out individual phrases to please the customer, mixing half-truths and outright lies.
    According to his own opuses, it turns out that the Monk Sergius of Radonezh and the Monk Seraphim of Sarov are also ... pagan priests whom the church "attached" to itself.
    Brad!
    Even the mere fact that Peresvet was called Alexander suggests that he was given a Christian name at birth.
  35. Feodociy doroga
    Feodociy doroga 16 November 2017 04: 27
    0
    Is this article meant for idiots? author -> author -> author -> author
    / filter ->, a fan of the Jewish religion from Israel - Christianity, Hieromonk Job (Gumerov), brazenly lies, hoping that 99% of Christians do not have their brains and will never test his lies. For example 1. to the assertion that there is not a single testimony of Peresvet's contemporaries who would call Peresvet a monk, this Gumerov, brazenly and falsely cites the Nikon Chronicle as proof, but does not write that it was compiled 150 years after the Kulikov field., And therefore not is a witness to the battle of Peresvet. 2. With the same blatant lie, Gumerov cites "Zadonshchina" of which 4 lists. And in the earliest 2 lists, written less than 100 years after the Battle of Kulikovo, Peresvet is mentioned not as a monk, in the schema, but on the contrary, as a pagan warrior, in armor, talking about suicide, like a pagan, which fundamentally contradicts Christianity and monasticism ... But the Jewish izTORYK, brazenly and deceitfully, fooling simpletons with verbiage that allegedly "for a long time it has been customary to reconstruct the text of Zadonshchina" on the basis of a comparative analysis of all the lists of the monument, for some reason they put not the early two lists , which were closer to the battle of Peresvet, namely the latest list (of Undolsky) written 300 years later? That is, the lie of the official TORA and the priests simply has no boundaries. 3. Further, Gumerov gives an example of the chronicle "the legend of the Mamayev massacre", but again he is silent that this chronicle was written more than 100 years after the Battle of Peresvet, and therefore is not a witness of this event.
    4. The fact that in the Life of Sergius of Radonezh there is no mention of such an event as the alleged shimon Peresvet and his brother Oslyabli being sent to battle, this is more than serious evidence, but Gumerov tries to explain this glaring fact as an insignificant event and thinks that everyone should believe in his lies.
    5. Gumerov refers to the authority of the official members of N.M. Karamzina, S.M. Soloviev, S.F. Platonova et al. In this regard, I want to remind you that it was these characters who taught us that Yuri Dolgoruky is the founder of Moscow. However, Catherine II in "Notes on the History of the State of the Russian", cites evidence that Oleg Prophetic Oleg founded Moscow in the 9th century. And more sources, annals and archives than Catherine II did not have a single researcher in the world. But in order to make the founder of the capital of their Jewish community, the Jewish Jews from Tatishchev-Karamzin-Klyuchevsky-Solovyov agreed to cut off 260 years from Moscow. In this regard, I advise you to look at "MYTHS ABOUT SMART JEWS. And why is Russia an evil empire ?!" https://kolovrat2017.livejournal.com/906.html MYTH about the Tatar-Mongol Yoke. Who were the Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians and Huns? https://kolovrat2017.livejournal.com/1310.html CHRONOLOGY OF CHRISTIAN CRIMES and lies about sacrifices at the Slavs https://kolovrat2017.livejournal.com/1103.html